The Talk Show

189: ‘Long Press on the French Fries’, With Special Guest Rene Ritchie

 

  uh so how are you it's been a while like

  I have a lot to cover because I my last

  episode was the Lisa Jackson episode so

  it wasn't really news related so it's

  there's a lot on the agenda

  um trying to think of more even where to

  start I guess we could start with board

  early results I don't know um I know I

  mean well I just wrote a big piece but

  about iPhone sales in China but I I

  don't know I don't think it's a major I

  don't think the quarterly results this

  time were all that bad or good you know

  I think long story short my take on them

  is that there was a pretty good quarter

  everywhere except China and it was sales

  iPhone sales continuing to slide in

  China turned a pretty good quarter into

  an ok quarter where yeah they flat you

  know glad I think is a great word to

  describe it and there were two things

  that Tim Cook said that really stood out

  to me and one was when they're talking

  about new customer acquisition that the

  rate of switchers from Android to iPhone

  was up everywhere when you discounted

  China yeah which is a different story

  than they used to tell but that's a big

  that's a big but because part of what I

  wrote about today based on a very good

  column by friend of the show Ben

  Thompson with some market research

  there's two at least two two pieces of

  market research one from China and

  another from UBS analyst that was that

  came out last year show that in China

  there's a lot less a lot lower retention

  rate meaning when an i somebody who

  already owns an iphone goes to buy a new

  phone do they buy another iPhone or do

  they switch to another brand that's

  retention rate and its really pretty

  considered in the West it's pretty

  consistently in the mid to high 80s in

  the u.s. in the UK and Germany it's you

  know for two or three years now it's

  very consistently 8485 Germany's even a

  little higher 88 89 Japan is a little

  lower like mid 70s but pretty flat year

  to year but in China it went from like

  Western levels in the 80s like a couple

  years ago to around 50 percent now which

  is not good from Apple's perspective

  then I say very different

  than what they spoke about previously if

  you flash back a couple years when they

  were talking about the lack of low

  entry-level pricing on iPhones one of

  the things that Apple said is they

  didn't need to be your first phone if

  all you wanted was the cheapest phone if

  cheapness was your primary feature that

  was great but it wasn't a feature they

  were competing on and they would count

  on the fact that you would get into

  smart phones and then if you wanted a

  better phone experience you'd upgrade to

  an iPhone and a lot of people did that

  either for status or for iOS for iOS

  apps but that's not that's no longer the

  case in China there is still the status

  symbol implement but has been pointed

  out the the platform layer has shifted

  from base operating system to messaging

  yeah and especially it's particularly

  this app WeChat which is I think only in

  China I don't know or at least it's

  really only a sensation in China but

  it's you know truly staggering numbers

  for it's a four year old comfort or a

  four year old app from another company

  but it's I don't 900 million monthly

  active users something like that and I

  don't want to go too I'll put it linked

  I swear to god in the show notes at

  least in my article which has a link to

  the to the post from a woman named

  Connie Chen at the Anderson Horowitz

  explaining more or less for you know

  here what is WeChat and why you know why

  is it a sensation in China and long

  story short it's sort of like an OS and

  a in an app where it's a messaging app

  but you can do so much stuff you can pay

  free it's like you know like an Apple

  pay type competitor where you can go

  into a store and use WeChat to pay for

  the lunch while you're in line and you

  know like Ben has said that in China

  it's it makes you look like a rube if

  you pay with cash everybody else is

  paying with WeChat just all sorts of

  stuff you can buy stuff it's a shopping

  app it's you know that all sorts of

  companies that would like to be on the

  WeChat platform set up their own like

  authorized account it's like a special

  account status that opens up a bunch of

  ABA API so you can have a programmatic

  back-end so other WeChat users can when

  they're chatting with you know you know

  Rene and John incorporated we can sell

  them t-shirts or sneakers or whatever

  right

  that we chat up yeah

  and messaging is fragmented so it

  doesn't really you don't have to own

  messaging everywhere as long as you in

  the China market with WeChat you're fine

  the Japanese market with line it's

  almost like people who are such casual

  computer users that all they ever uses

  Facebook it makes no difference in them

  if they're on a Mac or a Windows PC or a

  library terminal or anything their

  entire computing experience is Facebook

  and it makes it easy to migrate right my

  argument and I've said this you know

  I've always thought this and I still

  believe it's always been true and always

  will be true is that in the in the basic

  apples model is selling nice hardware

  differentiated by proprietary software

  that's also nice but it's the software

  part is more important than the hardware

  part because that's what makes people

  sticky to the platform you know and so

  like a Mac user and I you know I've put

  this forth before I think you would

  agree with Allah I just love it as a

  thought experiment but would you rather

  use Apple's OS on competing hard on some

  other hardware ah or would you rather

  use some other hardware platform that's

  running right some other hardware

  platform running Apple's OS would you

  rather use Apple's hardware running the

  other OS so for example would you rather

  have like I would rather have a Google

  pixel that runs iOS hypothetically since

  that's not really possible instead of

  say an iPhone 7 that's running Android a

  totally and I think is easy to see

  because there are other companies that

  can manufacture beautiful hardware and

  there in fact the suppliers of a lot of

  Apple's components so we know they can

  make really good components but no one

  else has proven they can make really

  good software yet that's a much more

  rarer skill right and and with the iOS

  example it's a real hypothetical because

  I don't even think it's possible I

  really think that there there's

  technical aspects of like the you know

  the secure Enclave and stuff like that

  that would keep something from my

  message from working like in my

  hypothetical example I'd have everything

  you know my iMessage would work my

  iCloud ID would work on this pixel

  running iOS but I would rather have that

  even though I do in the abstract prefer

  an iPhone 7 over

  the Google pixel which is the the latest

  Android phone that I'm most familiar

  with and which I have to say is actually

  you know the nicest Android phone I've

  ever I ever saw it versus the other way

  around

  it would drive me not have to use

  Qualcomm scrappy processors instead of

  the a series but you can look at it yeah

  I could live with it it's you know it's

  fast enough

  you know III peg it you know if you look

  at the specs it's they're like somewhere

  on 18 months to 24 months behind

  I mean I'd still you know I would rather

  use a two year old iPhone 6 then use you

  know cutting-edge Android because the

  platform is most important to me it's

  just my mind is warped around it it's

  part of the way I think about how to do

  stuff on the phone and whenever I pose

  that question you know and I with

  computers it's actually is possible

  because you could create you can create

  a hackintosh that that works although

  there's still as things like iMessage

  still you know has problems and stuff

  like that because there's security you

  know it's not perfect hackintosh just

  don't work perfectly but they do work

  I'd rather have a hackintosh I gotta

  think pad running Mac OS 10 then

  anything Windows you name it Chrome or

  whatever whatever else a desktop PC

  operating system I could have running on

  a MacBook yeah absolutely the same but I

  have heard I know there are people that

  probably listening to the show right now

  I've heard from them whenever I bring

  this up because I do think it's an

  interesting hypothetical question um

  there are definitely people who I hear

  from who you know read read my stuff or

  listen to the show and say no I you know

  used Windows forever but switched to a

  MacBook just because of the hardware and

  in a lot of times I'll say like and you

  know not just the way it looks but I

  just got sick of the fact like I wanted

  a laptop that just when I opened it up

  it turns on when I close it it shuts its

  networks trackpad Works trackpad working

  is a huge thing and I know Joe and a

  stern friend of the show is often she's

  like the the absolute queen of trackpad

  judgements like she's got the ranking in

  her head of him every single trackpad

  quality in the whole market and I

  totally trust her judgment on trackpad

  quality that's a huge one but the people

  who say that they switched like that a

  lot of times say but that's the only

  reason and that they're you know for

  example very comments and

  my audience at least are like web

  developers whose entire life revolves

  around Chrome a text editor in a

  terminal window and any you know so

  somebody like that if that's your life

  if your life is just Google Chrome a

  text editor and a terminal you can

  easily switch to some other brand of

  laptop running another operating system

  you know because those things are

  available on every platform yeah

  absolutely same as a Facebook example

  it's just your entire environment is

  abstracted away from your computer right

  well that's why I think Facebook is such

  a not really a threat to Apple but like

  a direct threat but certainly looms

  large as and an indirect threat you know

  like somebody like it's far more of a

  threat Facebook is far more threatening

  to Apple then to me at least then say

  Samsung even though you would think

  Samsung would be the one who's the

  threat because they do the same thing

  they make $700 cell phones that when

  somebody goes into a store to decide

  what to buy they're only going to buy

  one whereas I feel like Apple has it

  it's successfully as in-app has always

  been or at least has been for 20 years

  in a position where the quality of their

  products are enough that they don't

  really have to worry about somebody else

  who also sells nice things because

  they've got the software platform to

  differentiate themselves the problem

  with something like facebook is that

  Facebook in a way is sort of like the

  WeChat of the West where you know if

  it's the most used app and it from a lot

  of people it is and it does all the same

  things in mostly the same ways on iOS

  and Android it's a lot easier for

  somebody to switch from an iPhone to

  Android if their most important app just

  works exactly the same way and lets them

  do all the same things and it's

  interesting because the web arguably

  helped Apple at a time when they were

  very far behind in terms of just market

  share and and mine share with PC but the

  web let them it compete you could just

  have a web browser and you would have

  access to all these things and it did

  ease the the transition back to Mac but

  it goes that door goes both

  and it can let people write you this

  quickly so let them in right it was it

  that sort of cross-platform parody that

  the web created was helpful to Apple

  when Apple was struggling but it's

  detrimental to Apple

  now that Apple's in a position of

  strength and it's interesting because

  there's different layers of abstraction

  where Facebook abstracts away a lot of

  the operating system and you're just

  interfacing because for a normal person

  the interface is the app and the

  interface is the hardware it's the face

  that they literally the face that they

  see and they work with and you can

  change all the plumbing behind it and

  they may not notice but if you change

  one button on an interface you'll get

  complaints or you know people will tell

  you about it and there's voicemail

  assistance to where you use Siri for

  example which totally disintermediate

  schoo --gel and all they see is query is

  coming from Apple and it's really regard

  Apple could switch the plumbing for that

  and then Alexa inter mediate things and

  it's almost like this battle for who can

  be the final point of the user interface

  and that's the experience that becomes

  sticky right and you know and Facebook

  is doing which had some other things you

  know with messenger and stuff where

  there's sort of apps within apps and

  it's sort of this sort of it's a sort of

  thing that Apple it's in its in its way

  has tried to discourage in the App Store

  all along right like they were never

  going to allow say it's part of the

  whole flash thing in the early years

  when that was contentious and when adobe

  first had a sort of flash to native iOS

  development chain and Apple like put the

  kibosh on it it was sort of you know

  what I'm sure they're it strategically

  there were multiple reasons but one of

  them was they were never going to allow

  something like an Adobe app that when

  you open the app gives you like a

  secondary homepage of flash based games

  that you can play right you can't have

  an app store within the App Store except

  that if you already have a certain

  momentum and size and importance like

  Facebook and like WeChat has in China

  you can kind of get away from it you

  know get away with it because Apple

  can't really afford they can't say we're

  not going to allow we chat on the iPhone

  in China and they can't say we're not

  going to allow Facebook on the iPhone

  yeah people just buy something else at

  that point

  right but so you know they even talk

  about apps like you know Facebook has

  things they call apps that you can have

  within messenger and like if you and I

  started a new chat app and came out with

  it and we said that there were apps you

  could have within the app it would not

  it would not make it through approval

  that in the iOS App Store our probably

  wouldn't um it's just something that

  some you know a company like Facebook

  that has that sort of what would you

  call it stature yeah well it also blurs

  the web services line because like Apple

  wouldn't blink with just like you go to

  google.com and there's your Gmail and

  your Google Calendar those are just

  normal web experiences and they've done

  that they but they've packaged those

  things up inside chat clients or inside

  social networks instead of having them

  as a bunch of standalone URLs and that

  gives a very different experience and

  pull you a lot more compelling

  experience right and you know one of the

  ways that Facebook is sort of

  threatening to Apple is in theory like I

  don't think this would happen I think

  it's you know so far it's actually more

  likely the other way around

  where something like you know Facebook's

  subsidiary Instagram was iOS only four

  years before it came out for for Android

  but if in theory Facebook somehow got

  better it was a better experience on

  Android than it is on the iPhone that's

  a threat to Apple if people's favorite

  app and most used app is Facebook and

  word spreads around that oh but you

  can't do the cool new x y&z that all

  your friends who have Android phones are

  doing on Facebook unless you get an

  Android phone like that's Facebook is so

  big and so popular that if something

  like that happened hypothetically that's

  a problem for Apple yeah I don't want to

  real it'll get the whole App Store thing

  but when you look at it if you look at

  the App Store you look at Google Play

  for example Google play's offers

  freedoms and features that a lot of App

  Store developers have been wanting for

  years but you can't really point to

  those two things on Google Play and say

  those are apps that aren't those are

  transformative apps that are simply not

  possible an iPhone you can get snapchat

  an iPhone you can get uber on iPhone but

  if there was ever a case where an app

  could only exist on Android because the

  policies or capabilities of Google Play

  and the Android ecosystem we're such to

  make it so that would I think be the

  only thing that could really change

  Apple's outlook on how all that thing on

  how iOS and the App Store works right if

  you really think about it

  it's apples uh they have control over

  the AppStore that the software vendors

  haven't had previously over their

  platforms right that they didn't have

  over the Mac because you could you know

  you can install any app you want on the

  Mac and so technically yes they could

  ban anything but practically speaking

  they don't really have they have lots of

  control but they don't really have total

  control like there's only so far that

  they can push Facebook on if Facebook is

  doing shady stuff behind the scenes like

  they have in the past like when I use

  the audio api Zoar right what yeah you

  know like they you know that was one of

  them like where where in the over the

  years when you look and say well why in

  the world is Facebook doing so much in

  the background and how are they doing it

  with there's rules of you know that apps

  get killed in the background and

  Facebook at one point one of the things

  they did it is they they were playing if

  there was an API so that an app that's

  playing audio can keep playing it in the

  background indefinitely and it won't get

  killed because if you let's say playing

  a podcast and you're not you're doing

  other things on your phone like you're

  going through email and browsing the web

  while you're listening to the podcast

  you don't want your podcast player to

  get killed by iOS because it's

  quote-unquote in the background because

  you're you're getting something from it

  it's playing audio so Facebook use that

  API to play completely silent audio

  track so that they could keep going in

  the background while they do other

  things like waiting for notifications

  and whatever else that are doing it is

  almost as egregious as when they had to

  hamburger buttons on both sides of the

  app all right I'd say that this was

  worse I do hamburger buttons don't run

  your battery down but it so in this

  problem still exists like I think was a

  month ago people started complaining

  about the same issue with Pokemon go and

  I started investigating and if you go it

  says we're like two or three hours on

  the background audio which is not

  something that any rat app besides a

  streaming client to ever present all

  right you should get jettisoned

  immediately right and so Facebook can

  get away with stuff like that in a way

  that other companies can't the other

  good example of that I mean I don't want

  to tie too many stories together it's

  but while we're on it is the

  a story that came out of a few weeks ago

  about uber yeah getting caught by Apple

  we could save that though maybe we

  should save that forever from the Zurich

  so anyway iPhone in China what else what

  else we have to say about that well I

  think just beyond China is that Tim Cook

  used the same sort of wording when he

  spoke about iPad and said that you know

  I large screen iPads were up sales of

  all our screen iPads were up when

  overall iPad sales were down again and

  that sort of was pointing the finger

  right at the iPad Mini yeah I think so

  that I think the reading between the

  lines on that that is a good that did

  strike me to reading between the lines

  on that and also looking at the revenue

  number yeah which wasn't really up

  either like like for example for the Mac

  sales unit sales were up 4% good

  year-over-year from the same three

  months last year but revenue is up 14%

  yeah so 4% units 14% revenue that tells

  me that the new MacBook Pros are selling

  pretty well yeah because that's the only

  thing that's new in the lineup and the

  ASP s are higher on those models and the

  ASP s are higher on those models and so

  you know that it's you know if you're if

  there's any concern out there that the

  sort of mixed reviews those MacBook Pros

  got it doesn't seem like it's had an

  adverse effect on sales seems like the

  opposite that they're actually proving

  to be pretty popular because they've

  driven the revenue per unit up but with

  the iPad with them saying and again you

  know it those those analyst calls are

  you know they can't lie on them or else

  they're committing securities fraud like

  they're very very careful I mean you

  know because you got you read the

  transcript and read every word I mean

  it's not loosey-goosey talk no and they

  are well prepared they have every fact

  in front of them before they get on that

  microphone right so if they say I mean

  again they don't they you know in the

  actual PDF data document for the

  quarterly numbers they they give you

  units per product line like just for

  iPad and their revenue for the product

  line and that's it and so the

  they don't break down in the old days

  like ten years ago they used to break

  down like for example Mac sales by

  desktop and notebook but they don't have

  any breakdown like that for iPads like

  between big and small but if they say on

  the call the big ones are up it but they

  must be up all right like it's either

  that or they're committing securities

  fraud but given that that everything was

  still down that must mean that iPad Mini

  sales have just dropped off the face of

  the earth which makes sense given the

  event of the larger phones and the lack

  of updates to the iPad Mini platform

  yeah I'd sort of a chicken and egg

  question for me is it are they not even

  updating the iPad Mini because people

  aren't buying the iPad Mini or people

  not buying the iPad Mini because they

  haven't updated the iPad Mini in a while

  this is this is a bit of a tangent but I

  went to a mutual friend of ours sort of

  potted us about Mac OS server the other

  day so I went to pick up a Mac Mini so

  that we can write a series of articles

  and I more about the benefits of Mac OS

  server and I went to the Apple store I

  bought it took it home and it was

  running L cap much I mean that to me

  shows is not a huge turnover rate on Mac

  minis we talked about how Mac Mini is a

  languishing product it's the same

  chicken and the egg problem but that

  sort of gave me an indicator about how

  few Mac minis might actually be moving

  it's pretty telling uh

  so trying ELQ be funny if it opened it

  up and it was running like tiger or

  something like oh that'd be great right

  sky lady old office telling us it's like

  how old is this uh PowerPC ABS uh trying

  to think anything else from the

  quarterly results services are way up

  which is as is predicted I mean they've

  been saying this for a while that hey

  we're you know we're hell-bent on

  services and it's showing in the results

  and it's repeatable revenue from the

  same customer base though it's sort of

  the revenue that Wall Street likes

  because you like we saw in China you

  can't guarantee someone's going to buy

  the next iPhone but are they're paying

  you subscription revenue you have a

  certain amount of period you can look

  forward to that revenue well and I think

  I think the other thing that and it ties

  into by arguing

  on the software being more important

  than the hardware in terms of not in any

  particular quarter but in the long run

  of having a loyal customer base that

  when they go to replace their blank

  whether it's their watch or whether it's

  their phone or whether it's their laptop

  if they've already got an Apple one

  they're going to buy another Apple one

  yeah and to have the services revenue is

  the sign that they're creating new ways

  that make more stickiness in that regard

  yeah I mean it's good in both directions

  too and I think they've even said this

  on the call is that you not in these

  terms though is that you can either

  double your amount of customers or you

  can double the amount of revenue you get

  from your customers and both of them

  result in substantial increases and as

  Apple starts to reach those those big

  numbers where it's really hard to start

  opening up new iPhone markets you've got

  Verizon you've got international

  carriers you've got China Mobile getting

  people on to higher revenue streams with

  things like subscription services just

  creates more value from each customer

  all right and I think it's important too

  because Apple is if Apple is Apple

  they're never going to they're never

  going to have market share like monopoly

  market share of these products because

  they're just they just does it's just

  not what Apple does is make products

  that are so low-priced

  as to you know take over the commodity

  level market I mean it just it wouldn't

  an Apple that tried to do that would no

  longer be recognizable as the Apple we

  know there's certain markets they just

  choose not to compete in right and you

  know it's you know whatever percentage

  of the PC market they have four five six

  10% whatever you want to call it you

  know their market of the phone you know

  is higher than significantly higher than

  that but it still is a minority and not

  even close to 50% it's you know even in

  the most popular iPhone countries it's

  you know 20% something like that is

  where we see the differential between

  the market share and their profit share

  right and you know being able to get

  more money out of the existing customers

  is a path to growth that is it lets them

  still be Apple there was one other thing

  that I thought was really interesting

  and that's when he was talking about

  Apple watch and they still won't give

  numbers they did the Amazon like thing

  where they said we had almost twice the

  amount of sales as last year so X was

  last year this was 2x but then Tim Cook

  said that if you take Apple watch

  you combine it with air pods and with

  beats although it wasn't specific which

  beats products just two w one or all of

  them that might be halogen 500 company

  yeah my guess is this there's a large

  amount of beats money in there it makes

  a fortune 500 company yeah yeah well

  let's take a break and we'll come back

  to that cuz I have some comments on them

  the watch but let me take a break and

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  need to make a website so I I sometimes

  I worry that I repeat myself too often

  Renae that I've got like three or four

  columns and I just can't keep writing

  them all over and over again but the one

  I just wrote a couple weeks ago was some

  I forget the guys name but somebody

  wrote a column that the Apple watch

  hasn't changed Apple it hasn't done

  anything for Apple at all and I think if

  you read between the lines of his

  argument it's that it is more or less

  that it the I Apple watch is nowhere

  near I phone size product and probably

  never will be and therefore it's it's

  meaningless to Apple or close to

  meaningless and I just think that's such

  a wrong way to look at it it's like

  there's there really might there might

  never be another iPhone size product in

  any industry let alone Apple like Apple

  may not ever have an iPhone size hit it

  may well be that no other company has an

  iPhone size hit in terms of just how

  much money and how many people around

  the world the market size is and so I

  ain't judged by that nothing Apple ever

  does will succeed by that merit and I

  think if Apple internally took that

  mindset it would paralyze the company

  yeah yeah I mean i phone creates more

  profit than companies that have

  oligopoly control over scarce fossil

  fuel resources and people forget that

  perspective and they create this false

  equivalency where everything for Apple

  has to be measured by the success of

  iPhone and then everything is seemed to

  be lacking where for other companies you

  could sell three surface books and it's

  a rousing success you get 19 articles

  out of that when we saw that I think I

  forget if it was Neil Seibert or Ben

  Benedict Evans who tweeted that based on

  their metrics Apple watch vastly outsold

  by it was a factor of two or three

  Amazon's Alexa echo product and yet

  people were telling how great and

  transformative echo was and what a

  dismal failure Apple watch was and it

  was

  lutely out of whack with anything

  assembling any resemblance to facts

  right it's it's graded on such a bizarre

  curve and it's a perfect example because

  Alexa like every other Amazon product

  the echo doesn't get numbers reported

  and Apple watch gets a Bezos curve of

  twice as much as ever

  yeah this games really important

  technology you can kind of at least with

  Apple watch it's in that other category

  and you can there is a revenue number

  for the you know the it's like the

  headphones and beats and Apple TV and

  Apple watch yeah

  and given a Apple TV is almost certainly

  pretty static that Gator hasn't been an

  update there hasn't been a big

  promotional push there hasn't been a big

  change you know since the fall 2015 when

  the current Apple Apple TV came out so

  you know I it's pretty reasonable to

  assume Apple TV is flat at best earpods

  is a little hard to gauge for this

  quarter because they're obviously

  popular enough that they're backordered

  but there's something strange yeah it's

  hard to connect just how constrained

  they are and I think you pointed out

  that they're not sold at a huge margin

  there right sold as cheaply as possible

  well the revenue number though might be

  big because they don't you know they're

  not going to break that down by profit

  but I have reason to believe that

  they're theirs they're not a big

  moneymaker at this point and it makes

  sense that obviously it must be hard to

  make because the you know that's four

  months in and there's still six weeks

  out if you go to order them as an aside

  on that for anybody looking to buy our

  pods I've every wrote about that on

  during fireball a couple times recently

  and a couple people have written to me

  and said that they scored earpods

  it on the fly recently from like 18 t

  stores they're like Verizon stores that

  there's they're they're showing up if

  you're you know if you really want them

  and you don't want to wait six weeks

  try-try stores like AT&T and Best Buy

  and stuff like that and you might just

  get lucky and get them before you would

  if you place an order at Apple comm so

  that's my my tip for anybody out there

  looking for airport

  but you know I I think it but the

  numbers from those that Apple reported

  another backup you know the idea that

  Apple watch is selling pretty well and

  personally I mean this is obviously very

  unscientific but personally I see more I

  see more and more Apple watches on real

  people out in the streets than ever

  before I see a lot an awful lot of them

  I went to the deli the other day just to

  order a Montreal smoked meat sandwich

  and the waiter was wearing an Apple

  watch and I asked him highlight and he

  said best thing in the world well I'll

  have our phones with us when we work but

  I can still check my text messages on my

  Apple watch now there's a big

  construction project across the street

  from from my house and I just I noticed

  the other day that the guy who controls

  the crane is wearing an Apple watch and

  I thought that you know it might be the

  same that that might be the exact reason

  for that is you know that he you know

  while he's doing this he can't have his

  phone out but he if he glances at his

  wrist he can see you know text

  notifications I don't know but just

  seems you know I see him all the time I

  see a lawful autumn it backs up daily

  and again not like it's as popular as

  the iPhone but nothing is really

  literally but I sure see him a lot I

  really do it does a subset of important

  brief tasks for you in a way that saves

  you having to go to your iPhone the same

  way your iPhone does a subset a really

  important task that stays you having to

  go to your Mac yeah but why is that

  important those are to you while we're

  talking about Apple watch we can tie in

  the other what story from this week

  where Apple Insider discovered that a

  couple of big-name apps iPhone apps have

  dropped their Apple watch counterparts

  was it Amazon eBay and yet the one up to

  me was most telling was Google Maps yeah

  I have to admit when I first heard this

  story my guess and I checked into it but

  I couldn't get an answer was that it

  happened at the same time they launched

  their iMessage app I just thought they

  screwed up something in their bundle and

  enabled the iMessage app and disabled

  the Apple watch app by accident and I

  don't know if that's true or they're

  going to be updating it for our watch OS

  four or whatever but their state their

  subsequent statement made it sound like

  it was it was returning it was not a

  deliberate removal well the but the

  telling part is that it it seemingly

  happened weeks ago and nobody really

  noticed a smartie noticed right away and

  she's like what's happening here and

  started looking into it but you

  wasn't huge story now I just think

  though I really do I think and I think

  it's you know I think the emphasis that

  Apple I think Apple is fully aware of

  this based on what they worked on for

  iOS 3 and what how they build it that

  even with the iPhone it was true that

  they'd you know they certainly obviously

  at the outset didn't see how much a how

  big a deal it would be there be an app

  platform they might have had the inkling

  but it certainly you know and I think

  it's played out in ways that that even

  they couldn't foresee I don't think

  Apple would have predicted in 2007 that

  the iPhone would become the most

  important and popular camera in the

  world it you know it's you don't know

  you know and I feel like they rolled out

  the Apple watch and obviously I think

  initially thought that apps were going

  to be a bigger part of what might make

  it popular and in real use in even their

  own use like not just surveying users

  but I think you know Apple people using

  the watch themselves that the health

  tracking and the using it as a

  notifications input and output device

  are far more important than the app

  story I think that's absolutely true

  it's almost like they over compensated

  for the lack of an app store at launch

  for iPhone by making sure no matter what

  happens or how poorly it performed they

  had one available for Apple watch and

  almost the the heartbreaking part about

  that is if they launched it at the same

  time that extensibility was launched and

  extensibility was one of the

  technologies that allowed them to have

  apps on the Apple watch but they at the

  same time that like a you've written

  this really well like what HTTP what web

  services were to websites where they

  basically didn't need a website anymore

  you could just provide an API extensions

  were like that to apps you didn't

  necessarily need a binary blob on the

  same device you could have features and

  functionality that could be on the same

  device but what could be projected or

  surfaced in many different places in

  many different ways and they had that

  with Apple watch but instead they sort

  of took this mentality of binary blobs

  where you had to have an app on a

  carousel screen that you could tap with

  your finger to launch and we've seen

  them move away from that but I think in

  hindsight we're going to see that the

  app the watch has to be a

  function uh so a feature device and not

  an app device yeah and I think you know

  it and it I played around I don't want

  to he's a friend and I appreciate the

  feature but Marco Arment has worked on a

  much improved watch app for overcast and

  I know that he spent an awful lot of

  time in the last few months on it and it

  shipped recently and then over the

  weekend I thought well I was I was was

  gonna go for a run and I thought yeah I

  in theory I would love to go with just

  my watch and air pods um and not have to

  figure out a way to carry my phone

  because there's just no great way I've

  got some kind of like belt like thing

  that I put underneath my shirt where I

  can strap it in

  but I'd you know I don't want to run

  with it in my pockets I don't like using

  an armband there's no good way to go

  with a phone um so I thought well I'm

  participer fect head I'm not just trying

  this watch app of overcast out I'm you

  know I actually actually want this

  feature I would love to do this and it

  was absolutely horrible it's just

  terrible it was hard to get it was hard

  to get it installed on the watch in the

  first place which shouldn't be the case

  it was like that from the watch app on

  the phone it said installing and it just

  said installing dot dot forever and then

  once it was installed getting an audio

  it's like getting audio from the phone

  to the watch takes forever and even once

  it did and I got a I got a podcast over

  there to listen to and I went to play I

  got my air pod sync to it the audio was

  like whisper quiet and and I'd you know

  I mentioned this to Marco and it's

  obviously not always the case and other

  people are saying it happens sometimes

  but he has no idea why uh it just and it

  was I wasted like 45 minutes and I was

  just like you know what screw it I'm

  just going with my phone like I always

  do it was so much better I mean it's

  just it's just too finicky it's way too

  finicky whereas there are other things

  like do you ever use this app you ever

  use the service nuzzle and use these egl

  I've seen it yeah I've used it on the

  iPhone it's really great it's it's a

  service you sign in with your Twitter

  account and what it does is

  it's really really great if anybody out

  there wants to try it I find a tons of

  stuff that I link to wondering fireball

  from it but what it does is it follows

  your own the people you follow on

  Twitter and when a certain threshold of

  the people you follow have all tweeted

  the same link or a link to the same

  article it gives you a notification

  about it on the assumption that if like

  five people you follow have all tweeted

  the same link to blank you want to know

  about blank and it gives you a

  notification for that and when I first

  heard about it I thought that this is

  going to be something that I'm going to

  try and quickly get rid of because I'm

  sort of sensitive to getting to I don't

  want too many notifications from

  anything I find out whatever algorithm

  nuzzle uses to do this I mean maybe it's

  super simple maybe it's just I don't

  know you know just but just the idea

  that if five of the people I follow on

  Twitter link the same thing I want to

  know about it

  the ratio of interesting links to the

  times they notify me is so high that I

  have no interest in turning it off but

  they don't even have a watch app but the

  notifications go to my watch just

  automatically like you don't you know

  like the the only thing I would want

  from them on my watch they don't even

  need a watch out for because the

  notifications if my phone is in my

  pocket automatically go to my watch it's

  I remember so Ellis was saying that when

  I forget when right watch was introduced

  that he and his opinion developer should

  spend more time making a really awesome

  notification experience and not worry

  about an app at all and I got that turns

  out to be candy advice right so like

  nuzzle doesn't even have a watch app and

  to me the watch app that they are that I

  get is exactly what I want yeah and if

  poor Marcos spent months working on an

  advanced watch app that maybe someday

  will turn into something that's actually

  good and useful on like a future version

  of the wot deck that maybe the

  foundation will be there so that when a

  watch actually gets its own LTE or

  something like that it actually will be

  useful but he spent all this time on it

  and it's I I don't want to use it at all

  even though I use overcast almost every

  day yeah I've tried it I like it it has

  the issues that you mentioned and I

  always have my iPhone with me even if

  I'm out so I haven't had the I haven't

  been forced to use it but it's it's a

  problem that people want solved but it

  is not something that's technically

  solvable right now all right like in all

  honesty i if overcast didn't have a

  watch app it wouldn't matter to me at

  all because the only thing I ever

  do I can do through the now plane anyway

  yeah so I don't know it's I feel like

  there's something that Apple I think

  they're well aware of it that's what I

  think and I think we'll see more I think

  you'll see it go that way yeah I think

  it's a classic example of the you know

  they saw everything is a nail they had

  an app store hammer and then everything

  looked like an app nail to them and in

  hindsight you can look back and say we

  needed a different approach for this

  yeah I think they recognize they have

  known that for over a year and a half

  which is why we saw watch it was three

  and we'll see watch it was four be

  different yeah yeah be interesting to

  see what they do with that

  anything else on quarterly results

  before we move on no I mean I saw at the

  same time he was a Tim Cook was on Jim

  Cramer and said they don't have a watch

  to lose thirty pounds right which I

  don't know where that was from like and

  again and Tim Cook does not strike me as

  a bullshitter right now like he is I if

  he says he lost thirty pounds I think he

  probably lost thirty pounds but I mean

  I've seen him on stage every six months

  for five six years and there was never

  any point where it looked like he put on

  you know or put on our lost thirty

  pounds yeah I mean that's but anyway my

  power to him it just it was amazing um

  what did they Annette it was a pretty

  good interview I mean for you you know a

  you know I give Jim Cramer credit for a

  guy who's not really an Apple person but

  rather a finance person I thought it was

  a pretty informative interview I think

  that this announcement of a billion 1

  billion dollar fund to promote advanced

  manufacturing jobs in the u.s. is pretty

  interesting that's that's wood cooking

  out the details aren't out yet I think

  he said to come in at the end of May um

  I think so it was it was entirely I mean

  it was super interesting we start to

  decompose interest the relationship that

  Apple has with the administration who is

  heavily pro US jobs and US manufacturing

  all these elements where Apple has a

  massive manufacturing capacity outside

  the US but also a massive amount of

  money which we heard about the call as

  well they want to repatriate and the

  last time that happened was under the

  Bush administration

  this administration might be more

  amenable so I think it's a very careful

  balancing act right and it's a yeah we

  cuz it one thing that has happened in

  recent years is apples had this large

  cash hoard for a long time now although

  the definition of large keeps keeps

  growing letting up the waistband but it

  has changed even though they've sort of

  capped it off now we're like it's not

  really growing so much in rather however

  much it would be growing they just keep

  giving to the the shareholder whatever

  they call it it's growing despite the

  biggest give back and one of the biggest

  give backs of corporate history right

  but one shift that has happened though

  is that their us Holdings have shrunk

  and it's almost entirely overseas what

  they have now is almost entirely

  overseas and so for like this billion

  dollar fund in in the u.s. they're going

  to borrow to get the money rather than

  use it because they don't really have a

  bill you know they have a billion but

  it's it's it I don't have it on me right

  to my to my wallet over in Ireland now

  very true but it'll be interesting to

  see you know what comes to that and it's

  you know it I don't think Apple is a and

  they've been thinking about this for a

  while I mean it and and you know with

  the Mac Pro that was 2013 where they

  announced that it would be assembled in

  the US I mean so it's not like they

  haven't like like all of a sudden just

  with Trump in office they're now looking

  to toe the line on bringing

  manufacturing jobs back to the US but I

  I don't think and I think if there's a

  trumpian aspect to it I don't think it's

  so much about toeing the line or wanting

  to please the Trump administration but

  more a a pragmatic let's make sure we

  don't get caught flat-footed if they

  start a trade war with China or do

  something impose some other you know

  tariffs or something like that like

  let's let's be ready for anything that

  might happen now that the

  somebody with his temperament and his

  his stated policies toward you know

  overseas manufacturing jobs is in office

  it's almost like pre-emptive positioning

  when they bought you know stake in DD in

  China you know because those there's

  certain volatility and that leadership

  as well and it's true I think that was

  back when they were doing the I factory

  Series in New York Times and and that

  was a big story and Apple you know

  making Mac's MacBook Pro sorry Mac Pro's

  in the US was a very good story for that

  2lbs you can see where this goes yeah it

  will be an you know again you can say

  like I saw it on CNBC after after the

  Kramer thing had aired where somebody

  was like you know given apples it you

  know two hundred and fifty billion

  dollar cash holdings and the you know

  their quarterly revenue you know it's

  easy to say a billion dollars isn't that

  much to Apple but still a billion

  dollars is a billion dollars and saying

  you're going to commit a billion dollars

  to assembling you know to advanced

  assembly and manufacturing jobs in the

  US is significant yeah I don't have $250

  you got to give $1 away still dollar you

  got to give away right and it's you know

  a billion there's a little different

  than one dollar and it's any problem is

  easy to solve provided you're not the

  one in charge of solving it that's what

  the media keeps forgetting I think let

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  mattresses what else happened recently

  that gets this week at Microsoft had

  their education event and they unveiled

  two things they unveiled on the hardware

  size outside their own this is their

  first true laptop something that's now I

  get detachable tablet type thing that

  they call the surface laptop

  and they unveiled an new operating

  system called Windows 10 ass which do

  you want to talk about first I was going

  to say Joe Belfiore is new blonde hair

  cut Wow he famously windows phone Joe

  Belfiore who went away for a year and

  decided to focus on education then came

  back and is now leading this initiative

  I didn't see that part of the show yeah

  he was I don't think they put him on

  stage which is involved that's why I hit

  my person on stage yeah he was out front

  beforehand I think maybe the hardware

  first because we use their know we had

  Daniel Rubino when my colleagues was

  there Wow I watched the video but I

  really only watched the video for the

  10s part I didn't watch the hardware

  part so what do you want talk about

  first the hardware all right let's talk

  about the hardware it's so interesting

  and I'm gonna start off with this

  because why not it's the talk show if

  this if this laptop had an Apple logo on

  it I think the coverage would have been

  very different

  well we saw how so because this was like

  there was a lot of things about this

  laptop that were very Apple as like the

  design looks almost identical to a

  MacBook Air the price was almost

  identical to a MacBook Air you know a

  lot of the of the video and the language

  that you used for it was very similar to

  Apple it's got one port on it USB a port

  instead of a USB C port but just one

  port on it and it does have the surface

  dock you know so you can do other things

  with it but I think a lot of people who

  were highly critical of Apple for doing

  things like a single port MacBook or any

  of a dozen decisions they made recently

  were strangely silent when it came to

  Microsoft making very similar moves with

  his laptop yeah one port its USB a which

  seems outdated and then they have a

  proprietary display port right yeah and

  a surface dock that to me that the

  proprietary display port seems like the

  weird the part that like whoa if Apple

  did that that would be that that would

  seem generate a lot of criticism I don't

  get your you are true I wasn't even

  going to bring that aspect up but

  there's it how can Apple release a

  laptop with one port and get like at a

  month of criticism or years of criticism

  people still complain about the MacBook

  you know people call it the MacBook one

  and then

  Microsoft releases one with one port it

  happens to be outdated the only other

  port is a proprietary one which is an

  Apple move and it gets headlines like

  here's the laptop the apples apples or

  Microsoft's macbook killer that Apple

  can't ignore and it gets it gets funnier

  after that because it is running KB Lake

  which is a generation beyond what Apple

  ran and there's reasons for that the

  quad core version of Kaiba Lake wasn't

  ready when Apple needed at the graphics

  that Apple one of the more powerful

  graphics were not available when Apple

  wanted to put them into the MacBook Pro

  and this in fact doesn't have those

  sorts of graphics options so a Microsoft

  made a different choice they went with a

  better CPU but arguably a much worse GPU

  but at the same time there's 8 gigabytes

  and 16 gigabytes of RAM but the 16

  gigabyte version doesn't ship for months

  and can you imagine if Apple announced

  the new MacBook Pros we went to in

  October and said oh by the way 16

  gigabyte versions lock in a chip for a

  few months and I also think I went

  through the configuration on it because

  there was also some initial Twitter

  feedback that I saw where it was that

  that it shows how overpriced the MacBook

  Pros are and I found the exact opposite

  where I configured one with core i7 16

  gigs of ram and a 512 megabyte SSD and

  the price was 21 99 and a MacBook with

  core i7 and 16 gigs of ram and a 512

  gigabyte SSD was $21.99 the exact same

  price

  $21.99 for Flex John and Apple offers a

  one terabyte SSD Microsoft doesn't and

  Apple will let you get a 16 gigabytes of

  RAM configuration in the core i5 variant

  of the MacBook Pro and Microsoft doesn't

  if you want to get 16 gigs of ram you've

  gotta also upgrade to the core i7 and on

  personally me personally I've actually

  totally changed my my personal take on

  but laptops were for me I think the the

  I'm a podcasting from it right now I

  have a 2015 or is it 2014 cheese I don't

  even remember

  MacBook Pro 13 inch MacBook Pro let's

  see what they say I don't remember it so

  I might take four years Oh mid 2014

  so yeah it's a late 2014 MacBook Pro 13

  inch one of the best computers I've ever

  owned I maxed out everything when I

  bought it I got like three gigahertz

  Intel Core i7 I got the 16 gigs of ram

  which is the most I could get and I got

  the one terabyte SSD and I'm happy with

  all those decisions because I've got a

  couple hundred gigabytes left but way

  more than 512 I'm like 700 or something

  like that so I need the one terabyte was

  useful to me I would lie as the biggest

  thing I need because I'm lazy and I

  always keep lots of Safari tabs open and

  slack take slack itself even if you run

  it as an app takes like a gigabyte of

  RAM yeah I don't think I need a core i7

  I think and I thought this I when I was

  testing I had a couple of the review

  units of the the new MacBook Pros from

  from October there's nothing I do a

  daily day-to-day basis where having a

  core i7 instead of a core i5 really

  makes a difference I don't use Xcode or

  if I do I do it rarely enough that the

  difference in build times I'm not doing

  it all day all day long we're shaving

  some time off the the building run cycle

  would really make a difference other

  things I do that might be like batch

  processing it doesn't matter to me

  because it's running in the background

  you know it the difference between core

  i5 and core i7 performance wise isn't

  meaningful to me personally and the core

  i5 is going to get better battery life

  and that actually is that's more

  important to me so I think the next time

  I get a MacBook Pro I'd get a core i5

  that would get better battery life and

  it's way more than fast enough and then

  just max out the SSD in the RAM and

  Microsoft won't let you do that and I

  find that to be a very useful

  configuration I have the exact same

  MacBook Pro that you have from before

  the exact same configuration and I came

  to the exact same conclusion about this

  one and in fact I can't mention any

  names but someone who knows those

  chipsets inside it out just told me

  point blank don't give Intel the f

  your money I I really I I believe that I

  really do and it's not so much that

  there's anything wrong with the core i7

  but that the core i5 is just good enough

  and I really do on that curve and I

  think that's why Apple has wisely made

  at the default even on the pros it's not

  just that it's more expensive but that

  it's really it's a good even for someone

  with who needs a hyper you know

  relatively on the scale of all of

  Apple's MacBooks higher performance

  model the MacBook Pro with the Core i5

  is a good one so anyways that money you

  get an extra port meaning I'm just

  getting one port my MacBook Pros so

  anyway I do find that interesting on the

  surface I'll give them kudos I don't

  think it looks like a MacBook Air I

  think it's obviously I think Apple is

  largely defined the modern laptop in a

  way that there are some basic

  fundamental similarities to the MacBook

  energy design

  yeah the wedge design is certainly one

  but I don't think that's the sort of

  thing that even me as somebody who's

  relatively sensitive to people ripping

  off Mac books I don't think that's

  something that they can that they could

  lay ownership to you know it's even sort

  of like Tim Cook mentioned this I think

  when at the event last last year when

  they the when I introduced the MacBook

  Pros when they went through all of

  Apple's portables from the beginning of

  the I'd like from at least from the

  first power book I think they skipped

  the Mac portable but all the ones that

  you had identifies a laptop like the Mac

  portable was portable but wasn't the

  laptop like it seems crazy now but Apple

  was the first one who put the keyboard

  back so that you have palm rests in

  front all previous laptops had the keys

  right up to the front of the device and

  you know so the fact I just think that's

  just something that when you see it

  you're like oh that's an obvious way to

  do it I think the no wise design yeah

  right I think the wedge shape of the

  MacBook Air is an obvious way to shave

  weight off off a device where only some

  of the components need need the full

  thickness at the back and if you can

  make it thinner in a front you might as

  well so I don't hold that against him

  like at a glance you don't look at it

  and you wouldn't look at that and think

  that two MacBook Air

  I did but you know but I'm willing to

  concede the point that you watch the

  video because the video again is very

  similar to Apple design language you see

  that computer opening up and if you

  squint a little bit you can't tell the

  difference all right and they do you

  know they obviously took a lot of pride

  in the video and and it is Apple style

  video but it's there's a lot of pride in

  the internals too

  yes they showed the what would you call

  it the the it's obviously done in CGI

  but yeah the the computer the renders

  yeah coming apart that the different

  parts of it are you know the little

  screws and everything going in other

  words do they've gotten much I mean from

  for a software company they've gotten

  remarkable hardware chops over the last

  few years well it's funny that they've

  always had a good reputation for making

  like mice and keyboards right the device

  that Microsoft mice and keyboards have

  ever since they got into the business

  have had reputation as world-class you

  know but the Xbox Live not so much no

  red rings and squeaky boxes right um but

  yeah they you know and I I even like the

  way that the I think is it the windows

  logo or the Microsoft logo the four

  rectangles thing the windows logo yeah

  is that what it is it's you know it

  looks good it's you know they've finally

  gotten it to a point where it's reduced

  to a real icon it was really the de

  facto Microsoft logo by now so I think

  they use it everywhere it they're using

  a different material they've got like a

  soft touch forget the name of it there's

  a brand name that I wasn't familiar with

  but yes settle something yeah it's some

  kind of like fake leather type yeah

  artificial synthetic leather what

  astroturf is - grass or something um

  yeah but that it's used by you know

  premium luxury automakers for components

  and caught you know like the dashboards

  of cards or stuff like that

  so supposedly a great material would be

  will be interesting to see how it wears

  and you might think hey well duh of

  course it's going to wear well why would

  they use it if it doesn't wear well but

  you know then you think about the

  remember the iPod touch that yep they

  were sir well whatnot ipod touch it was

  an iPod Nano or something that was like

  you could be scratch it with your

  fingernail yeah no totally you can it's

  hard to but there's no amount of QA that

  can prepare you for a million customers

  about it so we'll see but that's it

  that's new I don't I don't recall ever

  seeing a premium laptop that was

  something other than aluminum or you

  know plastic as the surface yeah they

  said they wanted to be less sterile to

  be less cold to be more like a warmer

  feeling I just thought that's going to

  pick up a lot of stains and a lot of

  interns at least the lighter sellers

  would I think I don't

  would I think I don't

  oh um but I mean the argument I guess is

  that's going to patina like a good

  leather I don't know but there's a fancy

  way of saying this T yeah but it's weird

  though I think things that patina by

  touch are different than things like if

  you have like a leather watch strap or a

  leather belt it will get get a patina

  over time but it doesn't look like two

  sweaty palm prints yes right no yeah

  exactly you know it's coming from use as

  opposed to coming from just sweat on two

  spots right right on the palm rest and

  those are heavily using that's heavy

  trafficked area yeah so we'll see you

  you know but but give them credit for

  something original yeah it looks pretty

  good but I don't think the price is all

  that compelling I mean I don't think

  it's bad but I don't I don't get the

  argument that it makes Apple's MacBook

  pricing we've got a line no like the the

  one thing you could criticize Apple for

  is that at $99 $909 they do not have a

  retina computer that the MacBook Air is

  still a non retina machine although it

  does have an available wide over a

  variety of ports then this machine does

  right for people who want to always

  wanted a retina MacBook Air the MacBook

  MacBook Pro Escape is not quite that and

  this is close writer right and that is

  the take you know there are a couple of

  tweets along the lines of you know this

  is the MacBook Air that Apple the retina

  MacBook Air that Apple never made and

  you can kind of see that in you know

  squint your eyes and that's sort of

  basically what it is it's the wedge

  shape it's 13 inches display it has a

  Retina display it's got the Core i5 and

  core i7 chipsets as opposed to the Intel

  m3 m5 and seven chips that that the

  MacBook has yeah which I still don't

  like mean whenever those chips see my

  iPad pro they just cry it's you know

  that's the truth I mean for people who

  don't pay attention to those specs and I

  know some of you know some of you people

  listening obviously do but I think a lot

  of you probably don't but you know the

  the MacBook the one-port MacBook that we

  have today is very very very similar

  conceptually to the original when the

  iPod when the iPad if not iPad air

  macbook air first came out where it was

  not priced based on performance right

  that's the

  you know that and in traditional

  computer thinking you spend more to get

  a faster computer and you spend less and

  you get a slower computer by some you

  know by some multiple measures often of

  speed io CPU graphics you name it you

  spend more you get faster you spend less

  you get slower and the MacBook Air was a

  dramatic exception to that where the

  MacBook Air was a lot more expensive and

  a lot slower but what you got was

  something remarkably thinner and lighter

  you know famously taken out of a manila

  envelope by Steve Jobs on States to

  announce it to gasps outright gasps from

  the audience like the appeal was

  immediate but in terms of how is it

  priced it was very different it was a

  premium price product even though the

  performance was far behind a MacBook Pro

  like far less expensive computers the

  MacBook today is sort of like that the

  difference isn't is dramatic it's not

  super expensive you know I think what

  does it start at $12.99 and a reasonable

  configures by I would say around fifteen

  sixteen hundred dollars but it's slower

  than a $999 MacBook Air yeah and I think

  it's also if you actually look at that

  computer the components that Apple used

  in that are expensive and it's a really

  bad analogy but they delivered

  futuristic computer technology in the

  present and that's always expensive and

  I remember sort of asking like why it

  was this price and it seemed overpriced

  I got this aghast sort of look and then

  I got a very behind-the-scenes rundown

  of what actually went into make it like

  that displays incredibly sophisticated

  and a lot of Technology they had to

  invent to make the computer the way it

  is incredibly expensive and

  sophisticated and you could argue that

  they don't need to do that kind of thing

  and I think we'll see that again with

  the iPhone 8 when it ships that it's

  going to be more expensive than the

  current iPhones but because the

  technology they're putting in it would

  otherwise not come to market for a

  couple years and that's the cost of

  bringing that stuff forward sooner so

  you really are skipping ahead but you

  really think that they're going to

  they're going to ship an iPhone pro or X

  or eight or something that actually

  raises the prices from the current

  iPhone 7 and 7 plus prices yeah I think

  the 7 I mean I think they saw that

  there's price elasticity when they made

  the iPhone 7 plus 20 bucks more than

  previous iPhone 7 sorry the previous

  iPhone plus and that's going to carry

  forward

  they start introducing things like it's

  always a balancing act if we want to put

  something like distance charging and if

  we want to put a much better camera

  system and if we want to put much better

  screen technology all these things have

  a cost and they'll come down over time

  but if we do it today it's going to be

  this price if we do it next year the

  year after it's going to be this price

  and once in a while I think they're

  going to gamble and say we can afford to

  test the upper limits of life on pricing

  yeah and the other factor that comes

  into that is that they can they can not

  have to Bank on having seventy million

  of those components in the first oh yeah

  it controls demand the price is higher

  less people want it and then you know

  the constraint supplies don't matter as

  much I think if that's going to be their

  strategy with the iPhone which I don't

  think I don't think they would call the

  iPhone eight I really don't I think they

  would call the iPhone pro but or iPhone

  something and there because I think I

  think it in and if they also have iPhone

  7s and iPhone 7s plus that stay at these

  same prices we know today and just do a

  typical S upgrade which is often if not

  usually a better upgrade component wise

  than the non S years I think calling the

  new on the iPhone eight makes the iPhone

  7s it look older than it would if they

  gave it a non numbered name like the

  iPhone Edition was the other way it's

  funny because I think MacBook was

  macbook stealth originally and they just

  went with macbook right so they can play

  around with those things until they just

  make a last-minute decision right and

  those things the leak the least because

  that the yeah you know they don't print

  the names on the devices so they don't

  come out of the you know like you look

  on the back of your iPhone 7 it doesn't

  say iPhone 7 it just says I I phone and

  so that you know it's just a small

  number of product marketing people who

  do not do not leak and then my stuff

  around for a while anyway

  backed back to the surface laptop the

  other thing that so the other the

  flipside of the event was the software

  which was Windows 10 s which is and

  again the comparisons were all to Apple

  apples so it's fascinating to me as

  somebody who's been following this stuff

  obsessively you know for mine you know I

  was a teenager

  it is absolutely fascinating to me how

  central Apple is added to this entire

  announcement but yes software everything

  was compared everything on the hardware

  was compared to the MacBook and

  everything software was compared to iOS

  and Mac OS yeah but the big news there's

  a Windows 10s it's a cut-down version of

  Windows 10 and it is iOS style in some

  ways where apps can only come from the

  windows App Store and to get out of that

  it's not like the Mac where you can

  click a checkbox and you know there's or

  there's a radio button in the Mac and

  the security thing where you can choose

  a purse while out yeah the gatekeeper

  switch allow apps only from the app

  store or allow apps from the app store

  and from known identified developers and

  you can also you know even with that

  checked you can also use apps from

  unsigned developers but you have to be

  nerdy enough to know that to open them

  is by not just by double-clicking them

  you have to like ctrl click and choose

  open or use the gear menu in the finder

  just to double insure that you know

  exactly what you're getting into in

  terms of using an app from an untrusted

  developer so you can do that on the Mac

  the Windows 10 s is like iOS where the

  old there is no option d'arnaud options

  like that there's no options to get apps

  from sideload apps from outside this

  store from known developers and

  certainly no options to to get unsigned

  apps yeah you have to pray your way out

  of it it's a huge huge deal I mean it's

  the sort of thing that like if Microsoft

  had tried it ten years ago would have

  had antitrust law that was a suspicion

  like when the Mac App Store was first

  announced it was a whole bunch of people

  who panicked immediately said that we're

  one step away from Apple locking down

  the Mac with a lockdown iOS and this is

  just the first stage and Apple thus far

  not done it at all and it's it's

  interesting that Microsoft got there

  first right because as everybody's fear

  and and and I highlighted a tweet on

  during fireball from dieter bone of the

  verge who said that you know Apple you

  know

  Microsoft's the first dish might be

  paraphrasing but Microsoft's the first

  Microsoft ships a completely lockdown

  computer before Apple odd which I

  thought was interesting just because

  it's you know when he's talking about a

  computer it's clear that what he means

  is that he only thinks of max as real

  computers and not iPads because the

  iPads been out since 2011 and has been

  locked down the exact same way the whole

  time yeah other changes that they've

  done that are even tighter than Apple's

  iOS restrictions in some ways are with

  web browsers you can download other web

  browsers but only from the store and

  chrome is not in the store it was at one

  point so it might return but my

  understanding I've poked asked around

  was more or less that when Microsoft

  went to Google and said hey with the

  version of Chrome in the windows App

  Store you're turning it into Chrome OS

  you know that it was you know had its

  own App Store it do it again

  circling back to our discussion of Apple

  and apps that have quote-unquote

  apps within apps they were like knock it

  off and so rather than sort of take out

  that Chrome OS style integration of

  quote apps within Chrome Google just

  took the ball and went home but even if

  you do get a browser from the their App

  Store you can't set it as your default

  so like an email if you get an email

  with a URL in it and click it it's

  always going to open an edge and and

  here's the part that it would have been

  so much more interesting if they had

  done this years ago and if they had done

  it in Windows itself is the search

  feature in edge is Bing and only Bing

  and you have no other options so unlike

  let's say even iOS which is pretty

  locked out you can you get Google search

  by default still but you have the option

  for Bing Yahoo and DuckDuckGo yeah it's

  I mean it's hard to take things away

  from people and I think the expectations

  are different with it with iOS the

  expectation has always been that you've

  never been able to have third-party

  rendering engines which means like you

  know you've never been able to you've

  always been able to change your your

  default browser and with Microsoft in

  they're calling this Windows it feels

  like Windows it looks like Windows those

  features now feel taken away

  you've taken away my ability to get

  chrome you've taken away my ability to

  search with Google rather than being a

  feature of the operating system

  yeah generous things I'm intrigued to

  see how it plays out because I don't

  know who the market is for this exactly

  and there is an option last but not

  least there's an option where you can

  get this you could get if you buy any I

  guess any of these windows 10s devices

  if you pay 50 bucks you can upgrade to

  Windows 10 Pro but it's clear it's not

  just like you're paying 50 bucks to

  toggle a checkbox like you're changing

  the OS in certain ways keeper where you

  can turn it off download the app you

  want to turn it back on it's not like

  you can download Windows Pro get Chrome

  and go to bed to Windows s you know and

  I don't know enough about Windows to say

  for sure but it's clear that this the

  difference in Windows 10 s in Windows 10

  Pro is more like it's two different

  versions of Windows 10 and there's

  obviously a lot of it shared stuff in

  there and it's not not like the

  difference between iOS and Mac OS where

  it's two entirely different operating

  systems yeah one Windows but they did

  advertise repeatedly during the event

  that Windows 10 s like there is you know

  that these the they don't call I forget

  what they call it but they don't call it

  sandboxing but there's the equivalent

  idea of sandboxing where apps from the

  Windows Store you know have can't do it

  like the old days where you can do it

  you know write all over the file system

  yeah at dll's

  do you note at the system level blah

  blah blah

  they had repeatedly said that as you use

  a Windows 10 s device over time it won't

  slow down which is you know III again I

  haven't used Windows on a regular basis

  and I don't know 10 or 15 years but it

  was always true and as far as I have

  heard recently is still true that you

  you know people can't nobody who's like

  an expert Windows user gets a Windows

  machine and four years later is still

  using it without having reinstalled at

  some point just to clean out the gunk

  yeah it's yeah it's super interesting to

  me the a lot of the choices that they

  made with this operating system and are

  they competing is clear they're

  competing with Apple in some aspects but

  they're also competing with chrome and

  Chrome OS and the growth of Chrome OS

  in schools and Chrome OS is the virtue

  is like the Chromebooks are super super

  cheap Chrome OS is essentially free

  chrome services Google services are

  essentially free makes it an incredibly

  easy to manage environment which

  education you know schools everybody

  loves and is Windows s really an answer

  to that is a way to get a super cheap

  free version of Windows onto a bunch of

  super cheap really inexpensive laptops I

  think the surface blacktop aside a lot

  of the third-party surface laptop style

  machines will be much less expensive but

  that brings with it a whole other sense

  so a whole other set of concessions or

  compromises I get the impression that at

  a at a practical level and from their

  business their what they really need to

  be concentrating on is chrome and

  Chromebooks and in you know they

  announced that they have through their

  noting Microsoft branded but through

  their partners oh my sir and a couple of

  others that they're coming out with $189

  notebooks that run Windows 10 S which is

  you know pretty pretty good price point

  and clearly you know very specifically

  the event was education they marked at

  the education market the the surface

  laptop is clearly not aimed at the that

  part of the education market the tray

  full of laptops for kids to you know the

  grade school kids to get as they come in

  the school school there is though you

  know it's sort of it's still

  quote-unquote education but it's there's

  the like teenagers who are going to own

  their own computer for high school and

  college and it's a that's where Apple

  thrives right like so Apple because

  their prices are so much higher and

  because chrome you know for various

  reasons chrome has really really taken

  off in the classroom education market

  and it's kind of using to see if it

  repeats because when I was young there

  was at you know a lot of us had Apple

  computers but you'd go to schools and

  sometimes they would have PC computing

  labs because they were cheap and all

  you'd hear is kids go I hate this my Mac

  at home is so much nicer and I wonder if

  I'm going to get to the point where

  because schools you know are regimented

  the way that they are there's a bunch of

  cheap window

  is Essen probably a lot more Chromebooks

  and kids will go in and go us it's not

  like the iPad I have at home you know I

  hate it and that sort of builds a whole

  separate cliche cachet where maybe Apple

  isn't as competitive in the schools

  anymore but they're super competitive in

  the homes with the same sort of

  population yeah I think it's definitely

  true as the father of a seventh grader

  and its seventh grade it's a little

  different but in the lower grades just

  in the last few years at Jonas to school

  most of the computers that they had

  access to were Chromebooks um and the

  kids hated him but they're not hated him

  but they they didn't really see them as

  something desirable hates a wrong word

  but they more or less were just they're

  just Google Docs machines really that's

  really all they were and you know I

  guess they do some research on you know

  web browsers but they're just literally

  just used for searching the web for some

  amount of research and for you know

  writing reveaied a written assignment

  you do it in Google Docs and it saves to

  a folder where the teacher can get it

  and they're kind of junky and they're

  kind of squeaky and they're kind of

  mushy it's just like right I was because

  my clock is the same way they have

  chrome at school now it's all you want

  all in on it but they have iPads at home

  and they can tell like it's not they

  don't put it in those terms but they can

  tell that it just feel like I saw like

  their got the same experience all right

  and that's not necessarily a bad thing

  and I totally understand it from the

  school's perspective yeah because I

  don't you know that they don't think you

  know you don't want a more expensive you

  know the price is a huge issue and the

  durability is a huge issue and if you

  can combine it and have a device that at

  least is reasonably rugged and even if

  it does break it's only hundred eighty

  dollars to replace or whatever I totally

  get it but I bet the kids like the

  mindset of the kids on what they

  actually use and wanted to use was you

  know in our own time was I phones really

  I think that's an important part of the

  discussion in the overall education

  market yeah

  but the surface laptop clearly is is

  aimed I feel like from a business sense

  app Microsoft really needs to stem the

  growth of Chromebooks they need that

  market they need that you know they're

  their business to set up on the

  assumption that all of these low-end

  machines will be running Windows

  and we'll figure out a way to make money

  even if the margins are really low that

  that's you know that windows everywhere

  strategy is important to them I feel

  like it's more of a psychological pride

  thing that they are and for years now

  it's not just with the surface laptop

  but that they've sort of been not even

  sort of that they've been outright

  gunning for the MacBook in advertising

  with their products right they had a

  whole ad campaign based on the I I

  forget the name of their products but I

  think it's the surface book surface pro

  and sort of the surface pro I don't know

  but it's Dora was the first one that was

  the convertible tablet and the surface

  book was the laptop II convertible

  righted so the laptop be convertible

  there's an ad campaign that was pretty

  big where they ran and it the whole

  thing was based on can't do this on a

  MacBook and it's usually just drawing or

  touching this gray

  trying to make that look we've made a

  high quality laptop and it has a

  touchscreen trying to make that into a

  differentiating issue and they they

  mentioned you know in that campaign they

  mentioned MacBooks specifically and

  nothing else I mean and they can't

  really mention anything else because

  it's not targeted at Chromebooks it's a

  very different class machine these are

  like the thousand dollar range machine

  and they can't piss off their OEMs by

  talking about other Windows laptops but

  it feels like Microsoft is caught in a

  heart is he sort of caught in the middle

  right now and you have Apple at one side

  and Google get a cider and Microsoft is

  sort of running back and forth between

  them not really certain of its own

  identity sometimes competing with

  Microsoft with Google sometimes with

  Apple and I don't want to bring up the

  toaster French thing but I think it's an

  apt description of it's sort of changed

  it sort of bachas your focus with

  products because you're not you don't

  have your own clear destination you're

  sort of like what Apple's doing over

  here what Google's doing over here and

  you're meshing them together and I think

  that's sort of the disconnect that I see

  in the surface book yeah ok surface

  laptop well and the other thing too is

  that they tried to make some Hey at the

  end of last year in the wake of the

  mixed reviews of the new MacBook Pros

  and it said you know this is the end of

  2016 that they that that I forget if

  they said their surface in particular or

  the you know that the premium market

  which is defined as like a 999 and up

  for laptops that they're taking share

  away from Apple in that market and there

  were a couple of statements that they

  had but it was all Bezos numbers where

  they didn't give specific numbers or

  sources and just set it but the actual

  numbers that have been released and

  we're really since then don't bear that

  out Apple's Mac sales have been up and

  again Apple doesn't in their numbers

  release the split between notebooks and

  desktops but there's no reason to

  believe that their desktop sales are up

  because their best selling one the iMac

  is over a year old and there are other

  ones the Mac Pro and the Mac Mini are 17

  and 23 years old respectively and even

  the best desktop year the the laptops

  dwarfed just right dwarfed the desktop

  sales and so there's absolutely you know

  apples Mac sales are up in the last two

  quarters they've reported so there's

  absolutely no sign that that Mac sales

  are down and so if they're if if it's

  true that Windows PCs in the premium

  market have taken share from Apple it

  doesn't make any sense because if

  Apple's sales are up technically it

  would be possible if the overall market

  were growing so fast that they could

  take share away even though apples still

  growing by outgrowing it but absolutely

  no nobody is reporting that premium

  Windows laptop sales are a growing part

  of the market in fact everybody's

  reporting that there's that it's a

  shrinking part of the market you're not

  collapsing but you know like a slowly

  deflating tire yes and there's no sign

  of that there's no sign of that abetting

  yeah and it's funny that again going

  back to the Apple watch they never

  watched the considered beleaguered is

  considered doomed that a lot of the

  angles taken reports where surface was

  you know by no measure selling well we

  had no idea what it was selling but it

  was being ballooned it was being propped

  up it were headlines all over the place

  hanging out like the resurgence of the

  Windows laptop and the coverage of the

  numbers you talked about that had no

  backing from Microsoft as far as I can

  tell though that was pretty extensive

  and the coverage of the surface not

  doing well is not been similarly

  right they've just announced that this

  you know sales room not now again not

  collapsing but the surface sales were

  down pretty significantly in the last

  quarter yet they reported so I don't see

  that happening all right let me take a

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  talk show know that just slash talk show

  my thanks to audible I should point out

  when I say about when I talk about the

  coverage I don't mean that Apple should

  be given a free ride on these things I

  think it's the same thing as like when

  touch ID is considered a disaster at

  launch but the botched facial

  recognition is fine I think everybody

  should be scrutinized to the level that

  Apple is it's not that they should give

  Apple a break but they should hold

  everybody to that same standard because

  as a consumer I want to know all that

  stuff when I make my decision on what I

  want

  next and I feel like I'm being

  underserved right now because I hear

  every little all the hot takes about

  Apple and everything else sort of just

  skates by yeah well I think it's we're

  talking about the elephant in a room of

  Apple's MacBook lineup is the MacBook

  Air because it's I think it's I think I

  checked today I think it's 788 days

  since they updated the the specs so it's

  two years old it still cost $9.99 it

  doesn't have a Retina screen and and you

  know it I it it's the existence of that

  product that gives rise to the hate at

  Microsoft just put out this thing and it

  makes it the MacBook lineup look

  overpriced I don't think that if you

  look at the if you look at the MacBook

  and I you know the MacBook one port I

  don't even know it I think we'll

  probably due for an update on that

  because the last one came out a year ago

  but a year is not an unreasonable period

  of time to wait for an update so if we

  get one at WWDC I would say right on

  time MacBook Pros obviously just came

  out last fall and I think are you know I

  don't buy the argument that they're

  overpriced I think for what they are

  they are correctly priced even though at

  certain price points that means that

  getting a quote-unquote new MacBook Pro

  has a higher price the price of a

  MacBook Pro plus the Apple watch that's

  essentially embedded inside it right

  exactly and and I think that the if you

  respect things out like when I did the

  comparison to the to the surface laptop

  what I was configuring it against I

  don't think I mentioned this I was

  configuring it against the new MacBook

  Pro with the buttons not the touch bar

  because that's to me the most apt

  comparison like to me that is the

  MacBook Air with retina that everybody

  claims that they want Apple to make the

  MacBook Air with with with a Retina

  screen is the new MacBook Pro that

  doesn't have the touch bar social or is

  that as much when you introduced it yeah

  identity well yeah it's so much in so

  many ways by comparing it to the size

  and weight and thickness of the MacBook

  Air which it compares very favorably you

  know it matches up with and it's way

  faster and as a beautiful screen and etc

  but the MacBook Air is old in ass in

  there $9.99 and doesn't have a Retina

  screen and you know not arguing but just

  having a very very nice debate with

  people on Twitter about it recently like

  Marco Arment and Twitter made that point

  and it's hard to argue with that in 2017

  Apple should not be selling any device

  that has a display that's not redneck

  caliber in terms of resolution and I

  agree with that in theory it that's it's

  - its 2017 is too late to still be

  selling a brand new product that brand

  new meaning that you're buying it out of

  the box

  yes factory sealed not price retail yeah

  right I think it's you know the non

  retina MacBook Air is like the new 16

  gigabyte iOS device yeah I can't defend

  it I think it's I would recommend

  against it I if somebody asked me if

  they should buy one I would say no and

  that would be the reason why but you

  pointed out so well with the Mac Pro

  thing is that Apple doesn't have a game

  plan for this it's like if we don't have

  something new to announce and we're not

  cancelling it it just stays at exactly

  the same price in the right lock because

  they want to keep something at that

  $9.99 price that is a Mac laptop but

  they feel like they can't sell the

  MacBook one port at that price yet yeah

  and still keep the margins they want you

  know I think what they're doing is

  waiting and and I don't know if it's

  this year I have no inside information

  but my theory is what they will do is

  eventually they'll have an updated

  state-of-the-art MacBook just plain

  MacBook yeah and put the year old just

  plain MacBook at a lower price point

  until it gets to $9.99 and then at that

  point the MacBook Air goes away yeah

  it'll be a little sad if they stick to

  the Intel Core M platform for that

  because it just is not the same either

  analyst it's fabulous which is great but

  it's just I don't know how to get out of

  that though because I don't yeah you

  can't use a court I don't know you know

  I think you're I think you're stuck

  waiting for the for the the M series to

  get fast enough that you don't mind I

  mean it can happen I mean you know the

  the a-10 is a fanless design and you

  know it's faster that's the other thing

  that's sort of great about the MacBook

  yes that the iPad pro in in my opinion

  has a faster CPU I think that the you

  know the single core Geekbench scores

  are a reasonable you know I realized

  that they don't correlate exactly the

  real-world use no and they're

  purpose-built so the two things that you

  note right off the bat is that Apple can

  build those cores exactly for what they

  want so they can have super fast there's

  a single-threaded operations because

  that's what people hit money do

  interface and stuff like that but they

  can all retire for the second generation

  MacBook it could barely handle one

  stream of 4k well while that ea9 not

  even the a-10 version of the iPad pro

  there is no a 10 version yet the a9

  version of the iPad pro could handle

  three streams of 4k because Apple built

  that chip exactly to do that and they

  don't have control over Intel and until

  will do things like the a as far as I

  can tell they core m3 is a hot a

  deliberately hobbled chip then maybe

  Apple shouldn't use but Intel just makes

  it worse than the m5 because they want a

  lower price point for that chipset so

  you know there's you know there's a

  waiting game involved there and because

  part of it I think too is like you just

  alluded to is some a big part of it is

  out of apples hands where they were

  waiting for Intel and that opens the

  door to the whole Mel maybe they'll go

  you know put an ARM chip being on their

  own custom ARM chip in them in a mat why

  AMD they've all this money writer by who

  knows who knows what they're thinking

  but it's you know switching to arm on

  one model of Mac is a lot more

  complicated yet and then we have time to

  discuss and I don't think it's going to

  happen and therefore you know there

  might be something I don't foresee there

  might be some way out of this but

  basically they're waiting for Intel on

  that so I don't know I don't know you

  know I don't know what to say and I'd

  but I can totally see I wouldn't also

  wouldn't recommend that Apple you know

  update the MacBook Air and put a Retina

  screen in there yeah I feel like there's

  something and there were rumors of a

  device in between now sort of a larger

  version I was a 14 inch Mac yes

  something yeah whatever happened to that

  ID hasn't shipped all right there's no

  kb lake version of the macbook there's

  no 14 inch version of the macbook this

  rest then the updated i've Mac's not

  here yet now now the 14 inch MacBook was

  a weird there was a weird rumor that

  some people seem certain of and never

  shipped anyway let's move on

  WD see stuff

  I just quickly want to say I am having a

  live show it's announced I people keep

  asking about tickets soon very as you

  listen to this it will be very soon we

  are moving but I don't have anything to

  announce yet so patience yeah sorry

  there are a couple of other events I

  know that they're on the same webpage on

  Apple's ww2 they're very very it's very

  very nice of Apple to promote these

  alternate or at home for you with the

  column but community events there is a

  Coco conf taking place in a hotel right

  adjacent to the Convention Center that

  where WWC is Coco conference held a

  couple times a year I've never been but

  it I have friends who've spoken there

  and have attended and and swear up and

  down that is amazing conference to try

  cat 1299 conference for developers are

  they have a great speaker line-up

  they'll be right there next to WWC so I

  would I think Coco confidence so sort of

  a great plan be for people who wanted to

  go to WWE and did lost the the lottery

  for tickets so look into that if you're

  a developer and you want something like

  that there's alt comp which is also in a

  hotel

  adjacent to the convention hall it I've

  never been there but it seems to me like

  there's two hotels that are literally

  connected to the Convention Center and

  that those hotels themselves have

  convention space yeah and so one of them

  is a Coco Kampf the other one is alt con

  fault Kampf is free so that's a great

  option if you're not looking to spend

  money but I think is also sort of

  developer oriented and then last but not

  least in fact last but probably the

  opposite least is the layers conference

  which is a great great great conference

  it's more design or in it is it's not a

  developer conference so for those of you

  who aren't interested in design or in

  development

  you're not coders but your designer it

  is a great conference I was a there was

  two years ago where I got to interview

  Susan care the designer of the original

  Macintosh icons and all the original

  Macintosh fonts which is still maybe

  that but I can't believe I'm the most I

  can't believe I'm doing this moment of

  my entire career like you know like

  having Phil Schiller on the talk

  was a thrill and meeting Steve Jobs was

  thrilled but for me personally the not

  necessarily thrilling but just like I

  can't believe I'm doing this

  interviewing Susan kare on stage was

  just absolutely amazing because she's

  just one of my favorite designers of all

  time like literally got me you know it

  it was as famous to me as Steve Jobs was

  at a very young age because I knew that

  she did all of this amazing work almost

  single-handedly on the original Mac and

  it was all down to the pixel just

  perfect um that was great but that

  speakers there it's great and it's so so

  nice layers is just one of those

  conferences where it's like I cannot

  believe that once a year these people

  put together a conference for everything

  is so nice and you get nice coffee and

  it's a nice room and stuff like that so

  I have a special deal for people listen

  to the talk show you go to layers is

  that's the website or you can just

  google for layers conference but the

  website is layers dot is and if you use

  this code you'll save a hundred bucks on

  registration and I know they're doing

  pretty well I know that but there's

  definitely still openings and if you're

  going to go if you're thinking about

  having an excuse to be in the W DC area

  during WWC you're going to want to book

  stuff you know now's the time to book so

  you get you know you're not making

  arrangements at the last minute you will

  save a hundred bucks and here's the code

  you can use that they'll know you came

  from me there's not a sponsorship this

  is something I'm doing as a friend to

  jesse charge runs the conference yeah

  because I wholeheartedly recommend it

  this isn't a sponsorship but I just it's

  just a great conference so you save 100

  bucks here's the code martini

  use that code and I worked it out i

  adder test it you can also get the same

  you can get the same code same discount

  if you type the martini emoji I dare you

  to try it I think it'll perfect that's

  perfect

  it isn't that perfect yeah I hope it

  works don't try that out layers is it is

  such a good conference and it's such a

  great I think she'd be pretty excited I

  don't know who knows this whole thing

  could be weird but if you're thinking

  about if you're hoping to make last

  minute I just talking to somebody else

  today it was like on the fence about

  whether they are going to be you know

  can they book you know get to San Jose

  for WWC week

  so I know that there's people out there

  whose are still thinking maybe they will

  maybe they won't but if you want to have

  a good reason to be there layers it's a

  good good as good as anything yeah and

  if your designer is a perfect complement

  to BC because I know every year they try

  more and more to have more and more

  design sessions and they have the design

  review labs but it's really a developer

  show and layers is such a great

  complement to it yeah and I forget what

  else they do did that there's some

  integrations with WWC Apple people come

  in to talk about interface design and

  stuff like that so check out their

  website you have salt the info also I

  just love the layers logo this year it

  is so great because it is so self

  referential to the name where it's very

  design looking but anyway check out

  their website even if you're not a nurse

  in a conference just to see the

  excellent graphic design what else do

  you got there was that we didn't talk

  about it but the we mentioned it before

  but we didn't go into the whole whole

  thing with uber tagging iPhones you can

  tell it's an interesting week for uber

  when they have not one but two

  controversies on the same day what was

  the other one I heard you had them both

  in your original ride out I don't know

  everything yes and now he's canceled his

  recoded I mean right well that was they

  I had to happen there was no way that he

  yes possibly get up there I mean it

  really I I

  I almost wish what they should have done

  is like Kickstarter like just like

  alright I'll do it but we've got to like

  Kickstarter a million dollars for you

  know app camp for girls or so some good

  cause like that like can you imagine how

  much money you would've raised to kick

  Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg discover

  him on stage oh my god but anyway the

  story came out Mike Isaac of the New

  York Times had a story in a profile of

  Callen ik the CEO of co-founder of uber

  and mentioned that a couple of years ago

  he got called in to for a meeting with

  Tim Cook at Apple's camp conference or

  campus and cook confronted him with the

  fact that Apple figured out that they

  were and this is where the story was

  murky or initially where the initial

  version of the story that was up in the

  New York Times in the morning said that

  they were tagging and tracking iPhones

  even after the app was deleted or even

  if the OS was erased from the phone and

  reset and then the word tracking was

  taken out in a subsequent edit in the

  afternoon but the you know the horses

  were out of the barn at that point where

  people were panicked and part of it is

  rightfully fueled by uber has been

  caught with so many shady practices that

  if they could do that of course they

  would like it

  it passes the sniff test of yes if a

  believable right but there was no

  tracking meaning you here tracking

  phones and you think well I had the uber

  app and if I have the rap I you know it

  can use my location because that's how

  the car comes and gets you and so you

  hear that what people think is well I

  deleted the uber app because I don't

  like the company I've used lyft or for

  whatever reason they deleted the app and

  the fear that Hooper is still tracking

  them and doing something like figuring

  out if they're using lyft even if you

  don't have the app and you know it's if

  you know iOS you'd know what that sounds

  like it should be impossible because

  when an app is delete at all you know

  it's you can't do things like you could

  do on traditional PCs like sneakily put

  a background process in a system

  directory so even if your app is deleted

  you've still got this remnant of you

  behind you know that's the whole point

  of these containers that apps ship and

  now is that when you delete the app as a

  user just hold the app make it jiggle

  hit the X anything it could run on your

  phone is gone but that's not what they

  were doing I think basically we're still

  not sure exactly what was going on but

  basically they were quote-unquote

  fingerprinting the phone and they were

  figuring out a way to get a uniquely

  identify a phone phoning that home to Oh

  BRR so they could store it it's not like

  they were just essentially

  fingerprinting it and then using that

  fingerprint as a way to tell whence when

  the same device was reassessing the

  service right I lost my train of thought

  there but that's exactly right and it

  was to counter some sort of fraud that

  was going on in China where I think

  basically the story was that they had

  like a promotion to get people to start

  using uber where you could get a free

  ride if you're new to BRR

  and if you're a driver and you pick up

  one of these free rides you still get

  the credit as a driver they're not

  you know ubers the corporation is eating

  the free ride not the drivers because

  you know drivers would rightly revolt

  so what drivers are doing is setting up

  some kind of scam where they would get

  stolen iPhones and configure them as new

  and put the uber app on and get the free

  ride and pick them up you know like me

  and you could work as a team and I'll

  pick you up and with the free thing and

  drop you off and then you erase the

  phone and and put it on all over and

  pretend to be somebody new and get

  another free ride and I pick you up and

  you know somehow bilking them out of

  free rides like that

  and so if they could uniquely identify

  the phone it would it would it I guess

  it did actually allow them to sort of

  block that sort of thing where they

  could tell hey this phones collected

  free rides twice already forget it you

  know and abruptly con a company that

  less regulations get in the way of their

  doing you know doing business right so

  the basic story you know and again this

  is it certainly did not seem to come

  from Apple's side it seemed to more

  likely come from somebody on ubers side

  but the gist was that you know Tim Cook

  supposedly told him hey so knock it off

  yeah and they did oh and the other thing

  that they had was that the somehow knew

  that Apple might look at this in app

  review and they put at Cal annex request

  put a geofence around apples campus so

  that when uber app was running within

  you know X distance of Cupertino it

  wouldn't do the fingerprinting that's

  it's a remarkable to me that a company

  that is such a based on such like

  geolocation technology we think you know

  not think about Apple having other

  offices like well Sunnyvale what are

  they doing Oh San Francisco what's

  happening with uber Boston what's going

  on here it's I know if it's hubris or

  naivete or some mixture of both well

  both but I think hubris largely an

  arrogance and and the outrage on Twitter

  and you know in a moral sense it was

  correct was you know why in the world

  does Ober just Kim Tim Cook give Boober

  hey knock it off

  slap on the wrist and give them a chance

  to just remove this and stay in the App

  Store when

  um you know other apps if again just me

  and you

  jointly together make an app you know or

  put a new version of Vesper out and it

  tags and identifies phones they're just

  going to kick the app out of the App

  Store I I get it I see that you know in

  a certain moral sense I see the argument

  there that are just a sense that that's

  it doesn't seem fair that a small guy

  would get kicked out in a big company

  let alone a big company full of jerks

  like uber gets to stay in but that's the

  way the world works right like uber has

  some you know has more stature because

  it's a super popular app that iPhone

  users use and in some ways yes it's up

  you know apples doing the right thing by

  making identifying this and making it

  stop

  but our iPhone users as a whole call you

  know however many 100 million of them

  there are happier or sadder if uber is

  literally kicked out of the App Store

  yeah Pulaski it means the same thing

  discussion we had with Facebook earlier

  where Apple has to be pragmatic about

  these things they have a certain amount

  of like don't you have to wait these

  things they can't all be done on a

  strict black and white scale because

  that sounds great in the abstract but

  doesn't work in life and we make those

  decisions all the time we as we will be

  upset that apples not doing things

  fairly or morally we have the same

  problem when we're dealing with our

  client or the same issues when we're

  dealing with different people in our

  lives it's that you know these companies

  are all not they're not equal they're

  companies which Apple has beholden their

  companies to which Apple has absolutely

  no interest in and they're companies

  where maybe you burr is like this where

  they sort of both need each other and it

  would be devastating for uber to be off

  of the iPhone but it would hurt Apple

  considerably to have uber off the iPhone

  as well yeah I think and I don't know

  you know I don't know the backstory on

  this I don't even know how much of it is

  technique you know exactly what happened

  it's all from this one Mike Isaac story

  and doesn't seem like anybody's got to

  follow up but what I would have liked to

  have seen is not for Apple to kick

  Cooper out of the store I really from a

  pragmatic standpoint I understand why

  that you know you I mean I I think it

  might have happened if Kalin had said

  that Tim Cook screw you we're going to

  keep doing it you know

  there's a certain you know all right you

  know you get called into the principal

  and maybe the principal gives you

  another chance but you can't to give the

  principal the finger right yeah but I

  think what Apple what I would have liked

  to seen them do if everything that we

  know about this if we think we know

  about the story is true is I think that

  they should have made Eber disclose what

  they had been doing in exact detail and

  say here's the information we were

  collecting about phones here's how we

  did it and you know you know you have

  our word that we've deleted our database

  of these identifiers yeah ia refused

  then I think Apple should have disclosed

  it I that the part that is doesn't sit

  right with me from what Apple did is

  that Apple knew that they were doing

  this they knew that their customers had

  had their phones fingerprinted by uber

  and Apple was apparently willing to to

  let that go unknown I mean there's a

  chance that maybe Apple did do something

  which is that maybe Apple somebody at

  Apple was the source from Mike Isaac for

  that story and that by leaking that that

  was their way of disclosing that that's

  what Oprah had done

  but I would have liked to have seen to

  do it in a way that's on the record even

  if it was Apple who was somebody at

  Apple who was the anonymous source for

  that I still think that this should have

  been in a some sort of official

  acknowledgement that this went on even

  though I don't think it was all that

  gross of a privacy violation in the

  grand scheme of privacy violations yeah

  so I think the you know if uber had been

  literally tracking people I think it

  would have forced a much greater

  response from Apple or a much more

  public response from Apple because

  there's some offenses that are just so

  egregious that there's no other

  alternative but this to me is and

  against the horrible analogy but if like

  Grenada does something the US doesn't

  like they can literally just drop in

  take over the airport and do whatever

  they want it doesn't work in Moscow

  right right it is mutually assured

  destruction there right well you know

  and there maybe there's other countries

  that are bigger there wouldn't be

  mutually assured destruction like London

  you can't just take the London Airport

  right uh

  well pick a country without nukes but

  you know yeah Australia let's say yeah

  classy knee I don't know cuz our

  relations with Sydney I don't know if

  you've heard they're a little rocky okay

  uh but uh yeah it's not a bad

  gee that you know yeah grenade is a

  little different than you know bigger

  countries yeah I still just feel like

  they should have forgot you know in old

  days this the funny part is you know in

  the old days with any innocent days of

  i/os you know it's just funny because it

  it's hard I think it's hard for Apple

  people who work at Apple to even think

  from the perspective of like these ad

  networks that want to do all this

  tracking and stuff but in the old days

  they were API is official API is not

  like private API is but like it the idea

  that you might want to uniquely identify

  a phone was like a feature and it was

  only once that started getting abused by

  ad networks in privacy invasive ways

  that Apple you know deprecated and then

  remove those API yeah you could say just

  take the edid right and carrot I think

  is you wanted to write like when you

  plug your phone into iTunes itunes can

  still see it you see there's a unique

  Device Identifier I think it's it

  printed on the back of the phone still

  in that small print I can't read it just

  like so is but they used to sometimes on

  some models that they would print it on

  but you can go to the settings screen in

  iOS and get the UDID you get the MAC

  address in other words each Ethernet

  port in the world yes a unique MAC

  address that that can uniquely identify

  a device I mean I remember in the old

  days when when I first started being

  used and it wasn't all that reliable

  because people you know had you know

  building their own pcs would take the

  ethernet you know it was a card that you

  could take out and so you know you

  couldn't necessarily associate the

  ethernet ID the MAC ID with a device but

  obviously nobody is changing the MAC

  idea of an iPhone there were all sorts

  of ways to uniquely identify a device

  that were officially supported and

  Apple's one by one eliminated them all

  but it's you know it's obvious to

  anybody

  when Apple eliminated those things that

  figuring out a way around it to still

  get a unique identifier on it on an

  iPhone was contrary to Apple's

  intentions like this is not a loophole

  this was a direct circumvention yet you

  know of a lock door you know anything

  somebody leaves the door unlocked and

  you go in you can maybe argue I didn't

  know I wasn't supposed to go in the door

  was a lock if you get to a door and it's

  locked but

  figure out a way to unlock it yeah did

  you have no excuse yeah no totally and

  again this is a is famous value and

  sometimes they've been applauded for

  their pugnacious you know a combative do

  what we want to do aspirin you know

  don't ask for permission and this is the

  flip side of that all right the other

  thing that rolled out of this story was

  sort of an aside in this Mike Isaac a

  story about uber in this collection of

  data was that uber had been one of the

  other theatres hits of all the shady

  stuff that they've done but that they

  paid money to a company called unroll me

  or no I guess that was the parent

  company of unroll me and they slice

  slice analytics and that's a company

  that's come up before in iPhone and

  Apple related products where slices this

  company that claims to have and it does

  have access to people's in in boxes

  because they offer these services where

  they they let people sign up and get

  some kind of rewards and exchange for

  slice getting to see their incoming

  email which again sounds crazy to me

  that you know but you know some people

  you know have different people yeah they

  people do not see the value of their

  data only they see the value of their

  cash or their time despite the fact that

  these companies will spend unlimited

  amounts of time and money just to get

  your data the slice has come up before

  where they've they've used this data to

  command and make projections about what

  what iPhones people have bought and how

  it compares your over a year because

  their customers last year got so many

  iPhone receipts in their email in the

  first 72 hours since it went on sale and

  this year to this and that and so I you

  know my mention of them previously is I

  don't really you know it's interesting I

  don't think it's complete noise but I

  don't trust data when it only comes from

  people who've signed up for service that

  lets internet marketing firm read all of

  your email but they bought a company

  called unroll me that offers a service

  that again you filter all your email

  through them and they make it easy to

  like unsubscribe from things you can

  unsubscribe to or to put all of your

  not spam but like it you know newsletter

  type things that would have an

  unsubscribe me link at the bottom put

  them all together in a folder or

  collapsin or something like that and

  these bastards it turns out were then

  selling it they sold so they sold

  information to Ober that using their

  their access these people in boxes gave

  you know uber bought like all of the

  lyft receipts from these people

  supposedly anonymized but like I wrote

  on daring fireball will supposedly you

  know an iPhone that you do a factory

  reset on is anonymized to an uber was

  tracking that I don't can't trust them

  there's all sorts of ways that they

  could you know backwards correlate you

  know even some somewhat anyway I think a

  lot of people and a lot of people were

  rightly like whoa I use this unroll me

  I've there's absolutely no way that I

  thought that something like my lyft

  receipt would be sold to uber yeah and

  it's again it's one of those things

  where we don't appreciate the value of

  our data and there's a bunch of apps

  that you can just give permission like I

  remember when I signed up for TripIt I

  would just forward them an email with my

  travel information they said why are you

  going to this trouble just give us

  access to your Gmail and at no and I

  eventually I stopped using Gmail because

  there's just so many services that want

  to tie into it I know that's not exactly

  an equivalency but I just don't want to

  provide access to that stuff because

  there's so much information in there and

  mine is all just it's a business emails

  all just a bunch of like travel stuff

  but that that data is incredibly

  valuable valuable to me and they're not

  really they're not really making a fair

  purchase decision there so the CEO and

  founder of this company Joe had a and

  the day after this came out he he he

  wrote a blog post or he said our users

  are the heart of our company and service

  so it was heartbreaking to see that some

  of our users were upset to learn about

  how we monetize our free service and

  while we try our best to be open about

  our business model recent customer

  feedback tells me we weren't explicit

  enough and it really again it if you

  read their Terms of Service yes it was

  in their in certain words but people

  don't read the Terms of Service and

  everybody knows they don't and there was

  certainly no bullet point in the main

  ky you should sign up for this service

  here's how we make money and I think

  what it is is that people who haven't

  just had their because they don't think

  like this good good honest people who

  just don't think that someone would do

  something like this here about the

  service they know that their inbox every

  day that you know two thirds of it isn't

  spam but also isn't like the most

  important stuff and so something that

  could help organize that so that the

  actual like email from colleagues or

  family or friends is all they're

  organized sounds like a good deal

  signs up for it and even if you say well

  you know you're giving them access to

  your email they might think ah you know

  I don't really care there's nothing

  there's nothing in there that I care

  about but then later on you tell them

  you know I know exactly what you bought

  your husband for Father's Day last year

  why yeah yeah you bought them this and

  because we have your email and it's like

  all of a sudden you tell them an example

  like that or you tell them yeah yeah

  they you know you know those four times

  you got a lift yeah that we sent those

  the uber well they knew when you were

  out of that we knew you were traveling

  you were out of the house nobody was at

  your home I mean it's and this is not

  new I remember 10 years ago 15 years ago

  for example if you go to 7-eleven and

  buy a coke coke has no idea you bought

  it but 7-eleven does and they'll sell

  that information back to coke but

  they'll also sell to Pepsi for

  competitive analysis and to like Lay's

  potato chips so they can say we want to

  be positioned next to coke on the on the

  shelf not next to Pepsi and you think

  that it's anonymous but it's not because

  they could figure out based on one

  unique identifier one phone number one

  time or one email address or something

  that you were the person buying the

  diapers and the beer you know that that

  supermarket that day anyway like I wrote

  about this give me a fucking break that

  they're heartbroken that their users

  upset they're not upstate new their

  users would be upset which is why they

  hid exactly what they're doing in the

  small print of the Terms of Service

  they're upset because there were

  suddenly the focus of a massive

  spotlight of a story that every

  reasonable person would say wow that is

  outrageous and his offensive event I

  wouldn't use that service which was

  obviously going to hurt their brand and

  make people I I never even heard of this

  unroll me before so the first time I

  heard of it was in the context of don't

  sign up for this thing yeah or I know

  people who use it and they were they

  were shocked right like like if you

  think in the back of your mind that

  signing up for a free service that can

  read and index all of your email is a

  bad idea

  guess what it is heartbroken they got

  caught I think he said that well right

  right and it you know there was somebody

  on on Hacker News who posted that he

  worked for a company that was thinking

  about acquiring them and when they did

  their due diligence that unroll me was

  literally keeping an archive of every

  single email of every single email that

  all their customers ever got since they

  signed up for the service yeah

  and that they were sort of served in a

  scary fashion in Amazon AWS buckets yeah

  and I mean that's part of the problem

  here is those buckets could be hacked it

  could be an employee decides to abuse

  the information contained in there when

  there's extra copies of your stuff

  hanging around you no longer have

  control over that information yeah what

  else we have I got I got this Hulu live

  had they've shipped a new live TV thing

  a $40 a month like cable cutter package

  do you see this just came out today I

  did I'm jealous there's all these great

  services in the US I just simply don't

  have access to it and you guys have none

  of that

  in Canada no like where we allow our

  telcos to own our broadcasters so we

  have Bell and Rogers who owned those

  things and they don't wanna give it to

  us so I I looked into this recently

  because I had to switch

  edit we moved so I had to get new cable

  service and Internet service and stuff

  and at first because we were a TiVo

  family we've always been a TiVo family

  and I couldn't get and this always

  happens this is happening 10 years every

  time I've tried to say changing or

  getting a new TiVo or something like

  that the cable card thing doesn't work

  there's like a card and and it's I guess

  the idea is that that they try to make

  this super secure it's the way that they

  can get the security of the cable signal

  on a device they don't own and part of

  it I think is just that they want you to

  buy their stupid box they have their box

  I don't want their box I want TiVo but

  we had a hassle getting our TiVo working

  and so I I looked into these services

  for the first time seriously because I

  don't watch a lot of TV or cable TV but

  but my wife does and I looked at like

  the PlayStation View service and it

  looks great it's it I think it's like 30

  bucks a month or 40 bucks a month I

  don't know but it's it's a reasonable

  price compared to cable and I looked at

  the list of channels they had

  and it's I couldn't find any channels

  missing that I ever watch and I asked

  Amy to look and she you know as far as

  she could tell they had all the channels

  that she watches they had some it varies

  by City here in the US but like it in

  Philadelphia

  you get ABC all the major networks not

  just the cable networks you get the

  broadcast networks apparently in some

  cities there's the play station for you

  to missus on them but it like it I

  honestly have just because I don't watch

  a lot of TV and I'm happy with the TiVo

  and for what I do watch and what I when

  I watched on my TV I'm using Apple TV

  usually um it just hadn't been paying

  attention I know the phrase cable

  cutting I know what it means but I

  wasn't aware that when you sign up for

  something like this just how much it's

  it's equivalent to having cable TV in

  terms of what you get per month you know

  that it's the same channels and content

  it's just delivered in a different

  fashion and so Hulu's getting into it

  now there but it's weird like Hulu like

  one of the network's that they don't get

  is AMC and there's a couple of good

  shows on AMC and I don't understand you

  know what the what how that you know

  obviously I guess that's all

  negotiations but somehow Hulu doesn't

  have AMC and my question for you is

  where's Apple in this because I feel

  like like this PlayStation View thing is

  so much exactly like what we've been

  hearing Apple might do at what the heck

  do you think is going on yeah and it's

  especially frustrating because one of

  the reasons that we kept hearing that

  the Apple TV who didn't launch earlier

  is that they were working on these

  over-the-top services or originally an

  Apple video version of what Apple music

  was where you'd pay one price $30 and

  you have access to all the major

  channels and then the negotiations broke

  down and then we heard them again they

  become like a set-top box sort of thing

  and those broke down and it sort of

  reminds me of music when it went DRM

  free they just didn't give it to Apple

  it was DRM free on Amazon mp3 first and

  they wanted to break apples hold on the

  music industry and that was one of the

  levers they tried to pull and then

  eventually it broke down and Apple got

  and DRM free mp3 music like everybody

  else and I wonder if there's still this

  sort of feeling in the entertainment

  industry that Apple destroyed their

  music business and they'll be damned if

  they let Apple

  destroy their video business and it ends

  up being not an advantage to Apple that

  they did iTunes they did Apple music but

  a disadvantage and now it's these

  companies are more reticent to give up

  all this product and you want to make

  sure they see the market with a lot of

  active competitors before they agree to

  terms with Apple yeah I think that that

  might be it I really do that Apple is

  having a much harder time negotiating

  just because

  just because

  is exactly what you said and as nothing

  really to do about dollar amounts but

  just sort of a vague notion that the

  entertainment industry feels like Apple

  picked their pocket last time yeah even

  though I don't think there's any aspect

  of it that wasn't above the board I just

  think that they I think basically they

  thought when they first did you know

  allowed Apple to create the iTunes Store

  that Apple has had this reputation as a

  niche player yes and you know the iPod

  at the time was a Mac only device and so

  it limited you know even if it was

  wildly successful among the all the

  people who could get an iPod got an iPod

  it still wasn't that big of a market

  because it would only be one-to-one with

  the number of people who have a Mac and

  that they just never foresaw that Apple

  you know and you know even people who

  don't pay close attention to the

  computer industry had the basic rough

  outline of a sketch where Apple was this

  little tiny California company that was

  like a ninety nine to one dwarf compared

  to Microsoft and Windows and PCs no I

  think that's it entirely and there was

  that famous quote and I know you

  reference this recently in the Netflix

  article where Steve Jobs said your

  competition is free and he needs piracy

  and it's theft and it was Napster and we

  just saw that's with Netflix we're

  orange is the new black was essentially

  stolen and held for ransom but the the

  privacy like the piracy rates for

  Netflix are extremely low because the

  service is so popular but also so

  reasonably priced right and so

  reasonably policed in terms of like

  sharing you know that your you know your

  kid goes to college and still has the

  family Netflix password so what they

  don't care they don't care if you know

  your kids going to University of

  Michigan and your family lives in

  Philadelphia and obviously you know uh

  you know that they do the geolocation on

  IP and they know that they don't care

  it's like it's you know I'm sure that

  there's some kick off we're at a certain

  X number of people using the same

  Netflix account it automatically

  triggers something but if that number is

  reasonable they don't care they fit so

  reasonably I actually had a family

  member who was using my account when

  when they were staying with me and they

  went got their own place and they you

  know they used my account for a little

  while I think a month then they got

  their own because it was so reasonably

  priced they just didn't want to be bound

  to my like they didn't wanna see the

  same things that I was watching all the

  time I sorry I just feel like you cannot

  overstate

  how important that is to Netflix's

  runaway success their generosity in

  terms of or not generosity but relaxed

  Ness almost like a pragmatism right

  comparing Comcast with the the Comcast

  attitude with these cable cards in the

  TiVo where literally the actual service

  person came to the house twice and

  failed to get one to actually work and

  register they treat you like a criminal

  not like a customer when I say that they

  were very nice to me it's just that

  they've set up the technology the

  service people were super nice but that

  the technology is designed from a

  perspective to be super super

  persnickety in terms of this and I the

  only logic behind it is that they're

  fearful that I'm going to like pop the

  cable card out of my TiVo and go to your

  house and put it in your TiVo and watch

  Game of Thrones one Sunday night for

  free it you're hooking up to a computer

  and get their high quality stream of

  Star Wars I guess on the internet

  whatever it's crazy but the Netflix

  style has proven you know in their

  runaway success in every regard shows

  it's like iTunes and instead of assuming

  that you're someone who will wants to

  rip them off they assume that you're a

  customer who wants to be good and they

  give you a product that engenders that

  right and so it's very interesting to me

  to see that like the BitTorrent rates

  for all this stuff has actually gone

  down yeah and that a lot of what is left

  it seems to be attributable to content

  that's not available in certain places

  so like Game of Thrones in particular is

  probably I think I don't even think

  there's a question it's the most pirated

  you know content on BitTorrent but

  really travelers because a lot of stuff

  was stream only for a long time but I

  dabble with them on a plane a huge part

  of that though is the parts around the

  world where Game of Thrones isn't even

  legally available so it's it's pretty

  interesting and I do think that there's

  a huge convenience factor on that I mean

  part of it for me is that uh I I do III

  you know I know there's some people who

  pirate all sorts of stuff and don't

  think twice about it but I you know when

  I was younger I did I had you know

  pirated copies of Photoshop you know

  when I was in college because what was I

  gonna do spend $600 for Photoshop no I

  mean but I'd stop pirating stuff as soon

  as I could afford to buy stuff you know

  just because I knew it was wrong

  you know I don't know and so there's a

  honestly I'm not trying to make anybody

  feel bad but I do foul and I create and

  you know partly unbiased I create

  content I happen to give my stuff away

  but in you know in theory I can imagine

  you know selling it and I would not make

  me happy if people were bootlegging it

  but you still want them to go to daring

  firewall to get it you don't want

  something else is reproducing your

  entire website exactly on their website

  exactly a perfect example right I you

  know it's so I you know as a content

  creator I might be more sympathetic but

  just seems like it's the right thing to

  do but also even just putting the morals

  of a behind as a lazy person I the

  BitTorrent thing just seems like so much

  work

  oh my god it's just like I I can be

  bought all aware and all sorts of things

  yeah but just in its these crazy file

  formats and part 1 part 2 part 3 and you

  got to sketch them together and all at

  what the hell I just wanted honest to

  god I really and you know I just want to

  talk to the microphone and say put the

  Godfather Part 2 on yes I really do and

  did yeah spins for a little bit and then

  I hit a button and it starts playing

  yeah no it's totally so I can't do it

  alright anything else you wanted to talk

  together uh no I mean I think we hit on

  all the major points now that was that

  that minor flare up again in Apple's

  role in App Store and and indie apps but

  that's what was a new argument well

  there Apple put out there their job

  creation and they often tout how many

  iOS developers they've empowered to this

  so Mac again will put up a post thing

  that Apple you know and he was he also

  mentioned consumers and developers and

  everything once again but the App Store

  was responsible for devaluating software

  yeah I saw that and I was nodding my

  head the whole time but I didn't see

  anything as new and I don't know I mean

  there is something to be said there and

  I sort of agree with it I don't know

  though that anything has actually

  changed in that regard so I wrote about

  it earlier today because I sort of I

  talked to a lot of our developer friends

  and a lot of people you know who are

  involved in the industry and there's

  sort of this consensus that and I think

  this is true that it sort of hit a

  traditional software developers hard

  because they thought that they were the

  new thing but they turn out to be

  tradish

  in every sense of the word and that's

  just as open to disruption as any

  industry and we no longer live in an age

  where only a few people have computers

  and you spend $500 for WordStar and

  there's a box of software on the shelf

  and all of those things are true we now

  have almost everyone has access to

  ubiquitously connected computing devices

  thanks to the smart phone and what we

  perceive of as apps is incredibly

  different there's millions of apps and

  no one's going to spend 30 to 40 dollars

  for a thousand apps a years just it's

  not possible and the same token no one's

  going to spend 500 on Worst are now that

  Google Docs is in every browser so the

  entire industry is turned upside down

  and I think the App Store may have

  hastened that but I think it's it's more

  a reflection of where the industry went

  not a not a single handed dastardly

  villain sort of a thing alright but you

  know people tens and tens and hundreds

  maybe thousands of people are spending

  10 15 dollars a week on clash plans and

  and candy crush candy crush yeah in game

  upgrades and then somebody like tap BOTS

  you know puts exquisite but your long

  exquisite work into a Twitter client and

  wants to charge four dollars for the

  upgrade from the old one and the same

  people are outraged so I get it it's

  traditional like we will pay for ego and

  instant gratification it's why that

  always white tulips were worth our

  fortune it made no sense but we wanted

  to have more tulips than our friends had

  right it's like that Twitter client

  could make but for paid Twitter client

  could make more money by like like

  locking you out of features than by just

  charging upfront

  yeah no it's absolutely true it's just I

  think it's a far bigger movement than an

  app store can account for it's just the

  if the guy English said this really well

  a couple years ago it's we've gotten to

  a pop culture for apps it took longer to

  get there than it did for other mediums

  but it still got there yeah I have just

  small thing it's just a small thing but

  I I and it's funny because it actually

  popped into my head yesterday after you

  agreed to be on the show but I keep a an

  Apple note iCloud note with the list of

  all the episodes of the talk show and

  who's been on them in the episode number

  just so I have it to reference and and I

  type like you know like this episode

  that we're doing right now is episode

  and I type tab and then I type Rene

  Richie and I might put in parentheses

  you know just like the basic topics you

  know of what we did yeah

  and then it's there and I can route back

  to in the past but I was doing it on my

  phone and I can't type a tab type of

  space and then I go on later on I'll

  open it up on my Mac and replace the

  space with the tab and I want to do that

  because I'm picky picky person but San

  Francisco the font that Apple notes uses

  now doesn't have proportionate numbers

  so in other words in a lot of fonts

  especially older digital fonts they

  would make even if the font itself was

  not a mono spaced font like courier if

  the numbers are so that if you type 1 1

  1 and then 4 4 4 underneath that the

  numbers line up the number one is just

  as wide as the number four San Francisco

  isn't like that it's a non proportionate

  font so the ones in particular are

  narrower than the other numbers and so

  if I use this space if I type the

  episode number and the space and then

  your name then the names don't line up

  and that bothers me so I type a tab but

  I can't type the tab on my iPhone and

  that I that seems like a bizarre

  oversight in 2017 and it just hits me

  within if it the ongoing debate over can

  you you know do is there need for a Mac

  and you do all your work on iOS well you

  can't even type a tab on the iPhone no

  it's very true I mean there's just there

  doesn't seem to me like there's any

  reason why the ask basic ASCII

  characters not be available on an iPhone

  I mean especially not in 2017 uh I think

  here's my suggestion anybody Apple who's

  listening I would suggest it be a little

  popup on the space bar tap and hold on

  the space bar make tab you know if

  you're looking for a place to put it uh

  I bet the Mac here's the thing the Mac

  had a way to type all of these extended

  characters like in I think right in 1984

  and if it wasn't it was certainly there

  were like 85 or 86 and they're great

  they're so brilliant and it's one of the

  ways one of the little ways that the Mac

  has always been so much better than

  Dawson windows where if you wanted to

  type an em-dash it not only

  was it pretty easy to do it but there's

  actually a really clever mnemonic to the

  shortcut it's option shift - well - is

  like a - and a shift makes it bigger so

  option - would give you like the little

  mini

  - like the N - an option shift - would

  give you the bigger one because shift is

  bigger and you get the - option eight

  gives you a bullet character because

  eight is the character with the asterisk

  which is sort of the ASCII bullet

  character option zero is the degree

  symbol for temperatures no is it I

  thought it's option shift eight is the

  degree not sorry the the bullet I think

  is option shift 8 then the higher one

  the degree characters yeah

  shift zero but it's not well considered

  like the eats where you would assume

  that the character would be right how do

  you type the upside-down exclamation

  mark you type option one because that's

  where the exclamation mark is so

  brilliant where's in Windows it was like

  all two one three six it gives you yes

  you know a pound sign or whatever like

  the British Pound uh crazy like no no

  logic to it at all it's just just some

  arbitrary numeric mapping the Mac had it

  it's brilliant it's been there forever

  how do you type the pi PI character you

  know like 3.14159 that I don't know the

  option PA oh yeah nice option shift P

  gives you a capital PI it's an option

  slash gives you the percentage uh yeah

  it's there's so many there sonam there's

  the end there's just so cleverly

  assigned and they've been like that for

  over thirty years and yet on iOS you

  can't type half of those characters at

  all and um you know I don't understand

  why that's not clear key word team

  friends and while they're doing that I'm

  going to say this completely unabashedly

  let me long press on the front fries to

  get poutine tater tots and hash browns I

  but I support that heartedly someone has

  to do it oh I just I mean I'm going down

  memory lane here but I know I don't have

  to think iight these without even

  thinking so I just had to double check

  to be sure but you can type option

  semicolon and you get any lips it's I

  guess that one sense too

  but anyway anyway that's my complaint I

  want someone that I a political my phone

  anything else not that comes to mind

  Rene I thank you for your time I hope

  you have a good weekend thank you so

  much and I'm looking forward to I'll see

  you month from now we'll be we'll be

  Palin around at the keynote yeah I can't

  wait should be a good year yeah

  so I will very nice to sign off and say

  I'll see you soon but I'll see you soon

  my thanks to our sponsors or sponsors

  this week where let me see if I can do a

  top I had we had Squarespace it's a

  place to go to build a website we had

  Casper or you go to get a mattress who

  is our third sponsor I forget the third

  sponsor third sponsor was of course it

  was audible that's the place with the an

  unmatched selection of audio all right

  Renee thank you