The Accidental Tech Podcast

220: Executive Box Lunch

 

  would any executive who had other [TS]

  options ever choose to eat a box lunch [TS]

  like well it's like anything that's [TS]

  executive so the name is always two [TS]

  levels of status up from the thing [TS]

  otherwise it wouldn't be a marketing [TS]

  name you know [TS]

  so executives would never have an [TS]

  executive box launch 17-year olds don't [TS]

  read Seventeen magazine and on and on [TS]

  aspirational I don't think executives [TS]

  have any form of lunch that comes in a [TS]

  box they should call it executives sack [TS]

  lunch like there there's literally there [TS]

  is nothing they could put in that box [TS]

  that would make that name seem [TS]

  reasonable just filled with caviar sack [TS]

  lunch the famous movie from Seinfeld [TS]

  to begin with follow up today friend of [TS]

  the show Daniel jacket has spent what [TS]

  seemed to be a surprising amount of time [TS]

  doing research on Mosconi lunches and [TS]

  I'm glad that Daniel did it so we don't [TS]

  have to he has looked up some [TS]

  information about the Mosconi box [TS]

  lunches we'll put a link in the show [TS]

  notes there's a few highlights that I [TS]

  wanted to call everyone's attention to [TS]

  the quote executive box lunch quote is [TS]

  $39.25 in the year 2017 according to [TS]

  Daniel I love so much that this is [TS]

  called the executive box yes the [TS]

  executive box lunch I am not kidding I [TS]

  mean in all fairness Craig federighi was [TS]

  allegedly eating one of these things [TS]

  backstage before talk show live and he [TS]

  is an executive and so therefore I guess [TS]

  that's aptly named but I tell you one [TS]

  thing when all of us are getting it in [TS]

  the big dining hall I sure don't feel [TS]

  like an executive no seems like what [TS]

  well it's not keep going case it because [TS]

  it's not $39.00 does not include all all [TS]

  the pricing and options included in this [TS]

  special Porsha lunch if you want formats [TS]

  and all four wheels and also a [TS]

  transmission it cost more yes so [TS]

  continuing on this is the description of [TS]

  the executive box launch which Daniel [TS]

  notes it's what he remembers from [TS]

  dub-dub in and it sounds the same to me [TS]

  so the description is as follows for [TS]

  compartment includes compostable service [TS]

  because California 25 guest minimum [TS]

  sandwich wrapper entree salad includes a [TS]

  choice of side salad dessert and fruit [TS]

  to accompany your box lunches we suggest [TS]

  adding assorted soft drinks and bottled [TS]

  water okay so let's talk about so [TS]

  drink some bottled water soft drinks of [TS]

  water are not included a 22% service fee [TS]

  as well as sales tax which is almost 10% [TS]

  are also added to the price so that $39 [TS]

  and 25 cents box box lunch comes out to [TS]

  around $52 and you haven't had anything [TS]

  to drink yet your and this is this is [TS]

  Daniel writing want to really lose your [TS]

  lunch [TS]

  each bottled water is $5.25 coming to [TS]

  $7.00 after service and taxes and this [TS]

  is again still Daniel and Markos long [TS]

  lost strawberry Seamonsters add Walla [TS]

  which is probably classified as assorted [TS]

  juices would set apple back an [TS]

  additional eight dollars a bottle add it [TS]

  all up and it's not hard to imagine the [TS]

  meals and snacks are coming to $100 a [TS]

  day or $500 a week per person nearly a [TS]

  third of the $1600 WWDC admission fee [TS]

  likely pays for food are you kidding me [TS]

  with this garbage moving on I don't know [TS]

  how the people who do it in San Jose but [TS]

  how their box lunches compare but the [TS]

  good news is the quote gourmet box lunch [TS]

  from the caterers in San Jose comes in [TS]

  at only $22 middle mineral waters soft [TS]

  drinks juices in bottled water are a [TS]

  mere four dollars and fifty cents each [TS]

  so a considerable savings once they move [TS]

  to San Jose on lunches alone how can you [TS]

  spend one spend $500 a week on those [TS]

  lunches like I was sitting here mostly [TS]

  defending them the last couple episodes [TS]

  they're not that bad you know they're [TS]

  passable they work not at $500 for the [TS]

  week are you friggin kidding me with [TS]

  this insanity no no no hard pass no so [TS]

  if they drop the price of the tickets by [TS]

  $500 like this back to the people and we [TS]

  all had to leave the building and find [TS]

  someplace else to eat and to come back [TS]

  I'm actually not sure that that would be [TS]

  better for the conference you're like oh [TS]

  just give me that 500 bucks I could [TS]

  spend that in San Francisco but then you [TS]

  gotta go find someplace to eat and I'm [TS]

  not sure the eateries that you can get [TS]

  to and back to the conference center in [TS]

  time to get the after lunch sessions can [TS]

  support that many people or are any [TS]

  better so oh no they're better but they [TS]

  probably can't support the people you're [TS]

  probably right about that but they are [TS]

  definitely [TS]

  better I don't know I like a very [TS]

  depends like you can go to the or [TS]

  whatever that little mall thing it's [TS]

  over there and I mean give me the mall [TS]

  food court is better than the but is [TS]

  better but you gotta wait in these long [TS]

  lines and then you get your thing when [TS]

  you gotta fight somebody then you get [TS]

  back and that's like the closest [TS]

  possible choice I'm I'm wondering I [TS]

  would actually mostly be willing to pay [TS]

  for the convenience of not having to [TS]

  leave the the conference center while [TS]

  eating lunches that I don't really like [TS]

  because that convenience is what I mean [TS]

  and obviously the ideal choice would be [TS]

  to be able to get from someplace else [TS]

  but as Daniel points out that is in [TS]

  their rules you can't get food many [TS]

  files in case it wasn't clear yeah there [TS]

  is no choice Apple can't say oh we're [TS]

  just gonna we're going to bring in you [TS]

  know someone else Decatur nope not not [TS]

  even an option it's just insanity to me [TS]

  like how they can get fleeced that badly [TS]

  it's not apples fault it's just the way [TS]

  of the world but oh my goodness it is [TS]

  just barbaric that that's the answer [TS]

  well the way of the world in Apple Apple [TS]

  world is like if Apple this bothered [TS]

  Apple all that much just by Moscone like [TS]

  you I saw it tweet as I was catching up [TS]

  on my far behind in Twitter someone [TS]

  saying that uh with its cash Apple could [TS]

  buy all of the the Major League Baseball [TS]

  NFL and NHL teams and still have a [TS]

  hundred billion dollars left over is so [TS]

  crazy now and then somebody well [TS]

  actually that person and was like well [TS]

  actually that doesn't account for taxes [TS]

  but still the point stands like it's [TS]

  preposterous [TS]

  alright let's talk about a next iPhone [TS]

  rumors we talked to the past that there [TS]

  may be a touch ID bottom a button on the [TS]

  back of the phone which some people [TS]

  think is the end of times a lot of [TS]

  people like myself think man whatever [TS]

  but somebody a couple people actually [TS]

  pointed out well what does this mean for [TS]

  the home button then because a home [TS]

  button on the back does not seem good so [TS]

  how does that work and I don't know is [TS]

  the answer but I would guess that there [TS]

  is some sort of home button even a foe [TS]

  home button on the chin of the front of [TS]

  the phone I think that's what they've [TS]

  probably started [TS]

  the path of which with the immobile or [TS]

  non movable whatever the word I'm [TS]

  looking for is home button on the iPhone [TS]

  7 and maybe the whole thing becomes a [TS]

  home button I'm not really sure but it's [TS]

  certainly an interesting point I hadn't [TS]

  considered that you know today touch ID [TS]

  and home button are giel kind of [TS]

  co-located but in the future maybe they [TS]

  won't be so John what do you think about [TS]

  this yeah I think they they will be [TS]

  separate because it is more awkward to [TS]

  press a button on the back of the phone [TS]

  even a fake like non button I mean they [TS]

  can have it there in addition I suppose [TS]

  who's again it doesn't move it's not as [TS]

  if they they have to make room for some [TS]

  kind of mechanism and it's already going [TS]

  to be this little cutout area but I [TS]

  think they will continue to have a helm [TS]

  button on the front of the phone now [TS]

  whether that home button is virtual kind [TS]

  of like the touch bar where it's just a [TS]

  bottom section of the screen or [TS]

  something like that there's lots of Bend [TS]

  lots of rumors in the pass 11 and [TS]

  recently about how the touch bar [TS]

  technology of having this little [TS]

  separate accessory screen controlled by [TS]

  the OS and you know accessible perhaps [TS]

  accessible to applications through an [TS]

  API kind of like all you know the [TS]

  Android soft buttons and stuff like that [TS]

  might be a thing that would appear on a [TS]

  phone but even if that is doesn't exist [TS]

  at all the idea of there being a that [TS]

  you could squeeze the bottom part of [TS]

  your phone to go home like whether you [TS]

  can want to consider that a button and [TS]

  especially if it's completely embedded [TS]

  in the screen and there is no it's just [TS]

  a flat featureless piece of glass with [TS]

  no little cut out a circle or whatever [TS]

  we're still going to call that the home [TS]

  button and I'm thinking that they're not [TS]

  going to get rid of that no matter where [TS]

  the touch woody Sentra goes so it's [TS]

  basically a divorce of home button and [TS]

  touch ID where the home button can stay [TS]

  on the front but because of the because [TS]

  of the way it's done in the edge to edge [TS]

  screen and everything the touch ID [TS]

  sensor goes on the back and we just [TS]

  squeeze the bottom of our phones and I [TS]

  think I would mostly be okay with that [TS]

  too like an up to see have to try it for [TS]

  a while to see if I miss the little [TS]

  indented circle a lot of listeners wrote [TS]

  in to express love for the little [TS]

  indented circle as a way to feel like [TS]

  which end of your phone is up or like [TS]

  exactly where you have to squeeze but if [TS]

  you can squeeze anywhere along the [TS]

  bottom edge of the phone I guess then [TS]

  your only problem is if you have your [TS]

  thing upside down but I suppose you have [TS]

  the Lightning port to check whether [TS]

  that's the case anyway [TS]

  it's pretty weird that [TS]

  all of these rumors about the next phone [TS]

  surround like actual important physical [TS]

  changes to the exterior of the phone [TS]

  because all the past phones including [TS]

  like this you know six and seven [TS]

  generations where it's kind of the same [TS]

  on the outside had been about like what [TS]

  does it look like and what are the [TS]

  materials but the design of it's a you [TS]

  know a rectangle with a circle button on [TS]

  the bottom that you press in to go home [TS]

  and I guess the addition of touch ID [TS]

  have been so constant this is the first [TS]

  phone that's like that the story and [TS]

  this phone is it maybe differently [TS]

  shaped differently proportioned and [TS]

  functionality on it may be moving around [TS]

  in ways that has never moved around [TS]

  before so that's that's kind of exciting [TS]

  and you know kind of also a risky and [TS]

  that like they have a model that works [TS]

  here with this rectangle with the home [TS]

  button on the bottom and they've [TS]

  iterated and integrating refined and [TS]

  iterated and at but base the basic [TS]

  functions and stuff have been the same [TS]

  aside from you know a case you mentioned [TS]

  the last show that the power button [TS]

  moved to the side which is somewhat [TS]

  Explo by the increasing size of the [TS]

  phone and difficulty people would have [TS]

  reaching elapsed that's not but other [TS]

  than that the phone design of the phone [TS]

  has been pretty cocky on the headphone [TS]

  that headphone jack moving from top to [TS]

  bottom but the the physical design of [TS]

  the phone has been pretty constant and [TS]

  I'm kind of excited to see them you know [TS]

  say all bets are off we're moving things [TS]

  around and we're going to try something [TS]

  new so I actually had a chance to play [TS]

  with the Galaxy s8 a couple days ago in [TS]

  a Best Buy [TS]

  with the exception of it feelin too way [TS]

  too tall for its width and it being hard [TS]

  to reach things as a result I actually [TS]

  really enjoyed like that how you know [TS]

  the general like look of the edge to [TS]

  edge on the sides screen and everything [TS]

  and the way to the home button I just [TS]

  kind of instinctively like forced [TS]

  touched the lower area where the home [TS]

  button would be on an iPhone and it [TS]

  turns out that's exactly what they want [TS]

  you to do and it just clicked and it [TS]

  recognized any firm press in that area [TS]

  as a home button click and so the very [TS]

  first thing I tried worked and was [TS]

  correct and then as I was playing with [TS]

  it over a few minute that I did that [TS]

  here and there a few more times and [TS]

  every time it just worked exactly as [TS]

  expected and even when there was [TS]

  something on screen there you know [TS]

  something from the foreground app that [TS]

  is in that spot that you know if it [TS]

  misinterprets it as a touch it would've [TS]

  activated that thing but [TS]

  every time it interpreted it correctly [TS]

  and it was great it was totally fine so [TS]

  you know if Apple's going to go in a [TS]

  direction like that where part of the [TS]

  screen just becomes the home button [TS]

  I think they totally can we've seen with [TS]

  the iPhone 7 force touch button that's a [TS]

  possibility that's totally fine and and [TS]

  now we see with the s8 that it it [TS]

  actually really does work the only major [TS]

  question I would have for it is how do [TS]

  they show this to people like how did [TS]

  how is it handled in the in the UI does [TS]

  the usable area of the screen for apps [TS]

  actually extend that far like it does on [TS]

  the s8 or is there a little like you [TS]

  know reserved or like you were saying [TS]

  join like maybe like a touch bar like [TS]

  you know API area down there where like [TS]

  you know apps would only actually take [TS]

  up like the middle 80% of the height and [TS]

  you know maybe not the very top bottom [TS]

  or something like that you know but [TS]

  anyway that you know having having the [TS]

  just bottom area of the screen except a [TS]

  firm touch as a home button that works [TS]

  just fine I was going to ask if there [TS]

  are any accessibility implications for [TS]

  that but I would suppose with that um I [TS]

  figure what you call it but we talked [TS]

  about it a lot like several months ago [TS]

  where you have little on-screen button [TS]

  that lets you do the home button in like [TS]

  in all sorts of other gestures what [TS]

  what's the name of the thing you know [TS]

  what I'm thinking assistive touch I [TS]

  think yeah is to touch something like [TS]

  that thank you I was about to ask you is [TS]

  this an accessibility issue but I would [TS]

  suppose assistive touch would fix any of [TS]

  those problems I'm not sure but it's a [TS]

  change well the the issue would be that [TS]

  you could no longer feel the button like [TS]

  kids you know now you can feel that ring [TS]

  you know so it's like Java say more [TS]

  easily tell like which direction the [TS]

  phone is oriented without without like a [TS]

  physical depression on the front surface [TS]

  where the home button goes it's harder [TS]

  to tell which ways up by feel alone so [TS]

  that that would be an issue for sure I [TS]

  don't know how they would solve that [TS]

  maybe you just start getting used to [TS]

  feeling for like the camera bump or [TS]

  other features in the outside I don't [TS]

  know if it is a dedicated area they [TS]

  could do haptics to make it do it the [TS]

  tiniest little jiggle when your finger [TS]

  is over the reserved bottom section of [TS]

  the phone like there's all sorts of [TS]

  things they can do that's interesting [TS]

  playing playing switch games with it's a [TS]

  little it's been a couple articles [TS]

  recently about the the haptic engine in [TS]

  the Nintendo switch which is looks like [TS]

  the same tech [TS]

  apples been using its phones what I [TS]

  figure they're called linear [TS]

  something-or-other or whatever but it's [TS]

  it's better than the old vibrators and [TS]

  more precise and they're using it in [TS]

  games to make it feel like things on [TS]

  screen have some kind of physical [TS]

  presence and it's surprisingly easy to [TS]

  fool us I mean just we just talked about [TS]

  the home button last time like it [TS]

  doesn't feel like a button but it feels [TS]

  like a thing that we rapidly get used to [TS]

  and come to accept as the physical [TS]

  reality of the phone right and I think I [TS]

  think the best thing would be like if [TS]

  you could turn off I mean I suppose you [TS]

  can't isn't there some way you to turn [TS]

  off vibration can you turn off the [TS]

  haptic engine entirely I would assume so [TS]

  but I don't know yeah but anyway if it [TS]

  did turn off our devices would feel [TS]

  broken in a different way please like [TS]

  this is not how my glass rectangle is [TS]

  supposed to move or feel so adding [TS]

  something like oh when when your your [TS]

  finger physically touches the correct [TS]

  bottom part of the phone it gives the [TS]

  the tiniest little jiggle and that would [TS]

  be a physical way for you to feel with [TS]

  your hands which side is the top or [TS]

  bottom of my phone it wouldn't activate [TS]

  anything yet because you haven't [TS]

  actually pressed but basically when your [TS]

  feeling for that little circle you want [TS]

  to know which side is up you need that [TS]

  information you need at where I'd be [TS]

  provided physically that little circle [TS]

  is about as subtle as the little jiggle [TS]

  could be and once you find which side is [TS]

  up if the whole bottom of the phone [TS]

  functions is one giant button it's even [TS]

  easier to hit than that little circle so [TS]

  that that problem is solved so real-time [TS]

  follow-up to turn off system haptic [TS]

  switch has a subtitle of play haptics [TS]

  for system controls interactions that's [TS]

  in setting sounds and haptics and then [TS]

  there's options for vibrate on ring [TS]

  vibrate on silent sound in vibration [TS]

  patterns and all the way at the bottom [TS]

  is system haptic switch is a switch yes [TS]

  now does that turn off the home button [TS]

  just switch them on find out no the home [TS]

  button still does I have to click yeah I [TS]

  presume because it would be really [TS]

  really eerie if it didn't feel it would [TS]

  feel broken I mean to us if were you [TS]

  used to it it's like it's whatever you [TS]

  used to but it would feel like it [TS]

  doesn't it's not the same physical [TS]

  device anymore right that's the thing [TS]

  about haptic like though it's it's [TS]

  faking a physical must this is it gets a [TS]

  lot to my pet peeves that my you know [TS]

  things being done in hardware on video [TS]

  cards which is like now and increasingly [TS]

  dated peeve from the 80s [TS]

  mechanical keyboards that for a [TS]

  drives me nuts because you know like [TS]

  Topshop please show me the [TS]

  non-mechanical keyboards [TS]

  I can do that do you remember when they [TS]

  used to have the ones that they would [TS]

  like shine it looked like laser like a [TS]

  laser keyboard but it wasn't actually [TS]

  lasers I'm sure yeah and how did you use [TS]

  and how did you use those keyboards [TS]

  gazing uh you put your fingers on a [TS]

  surah you take your finger and you move [TS]

  it you mean you take a no no no missing [TS]

  the point you're just shining light on a [TS]

  surface say like on a desktop no John [TS]

  saying your fingers the Machine I know [TS]

  what thing you're talking about but you [TS]

  can't activate it with your mind you [TS]

  have to physically move your hands and [TS]

  press them into certain areas you're not [TS]

  the press but you have to place your [TS]

  fingers into the zone where the keys are [TS]

  that is a physical act the keyboard [TS]

  itself is not moving John wait so like [TS]

  when when a conductor waves the stick [TS]

  around in front of a band is that [TS]

  considered a mechanical device you know [TS]

  yeah I I would say I don't know it's [TS]

  difficult to say when you consider [TS]

  mechanical because it's not like that [TS]

  light is just being emitted naturally [TS]

  from the desktop we need an episode of [TS]

  mechanical or not this is this is [TS]

  definitely a pretty broad definition of [TS]

  mechanical that you're using huge right [TS]

  yeah when people talk about really in [TS]

  the context I'm saying people talking [TS]

  about chemical keyboards they're they're [TS]

  saying as compared to the keyboard that [TS]

  I'm sitting in front of which is the [TS]

  Apple aluminum extended which is 100% [TS]

  mechanical the keys move at you know [TS]

  making contact for the thing that causes [TS]

  a signal but it's not a quote-unquote [TS]

  mechanical keyboard it's a it's a very [TS]

  strange interpretation can i nitpick to [TS]

  your definition of 100% mechanical yeah [TS]

  what part of it is a mechanical I'm [TS]

  pretty sure there's like there's like a [TS]

  USB controller in there and I'm like no [TS]

  I mean the keyboard part of it means the [TS]

  same thing with mechanical keyboards [TS]

  when you're just activating a switch so [TS]

  electronic it's not like it's steam [TS]

  power it's like a typewriter where [TS]

  you're hitting a lever that's causing a [TS]

  big thing to whack into a piece of paper [TS]

  that makes you a key Jason Snell can you [TS]

  can you fix this for us so we don't have [TS]

  to do I know a pebble mean when they say [TS]

  mechanical keyboards is just a silly [TS]

  phrase like it is it is a term that has [TS]

  taken on this alternate meaning that [TS]

  doesn't really make sense if you think [TS]

  about it but it is accepted as a term of [TS]

  art so we all just say it and don't [TS]

  think about it [TS]

  help me Jason Snell you're my only hope [TS]

  but what what I was getting at before I [TS]

  do wrap myself that reference was [TS]

  but the the idea that that haptics are a [TS]

  replacement for things like the physical [TS]

  home button right when they're not you [TS]

  know they they work by doing a physical [TS]

  thing something in your phone is moving [TS]

  causing you to feel that motion it's [TS]

  just an entirely different motion than [TS]

  the surface that you pressed moving [TS]

  downwards relative this to the surface [TS]

  surrounding it but something is moving [TS]

  and it is and you are feeling it as a [TS]

  physical sensation so it is an alternate [TS]

  physical action to replace other [TS]

  physical actions is not the removal of [TS]

  like physical buttons with non physical [TS]

  buttons because I would say the iPhone 7 [TS]

  button is still a physical button when [TS]

  haptics are turned on because you press [TS]

  as a physical action and you tell that [TS]

  your press has been registered or [TS]

  successful because you feel a response [TS]

  the response is not your finger getting [TS]

  lower inside the thing but it is a [TS]

  physical sensation and so this [TS]

  distinction between physical and [TS]

  non-physical controls as haptics get [TS]

  better like maybe it'll be like [TS]

  mechanical keyboards it's just that [TS]

  that's the way we'll describe it and you [TS]

  know we won't bother thinking about [TS]

  whether it makes sense or not [TS]

  but it is a clever way to make a device [TS]

  more reliable while still doing the [TS]

  thing that works best with humans we [TS]

  have you know hands and fingers that are [TS]

  sensitive and you know they're sensitive [TS]

  to motion it's a good way to tell how [TS]

  things are happening without looking at [TS]

  them so you can put feel in your pocket [TS]

  or Sokol you know physical buttons as [TS]

  opposed to those on physical ones I can [TS]

  feel what the volume controls are I can [TS]

  feel what the power button is I can feel [TS]

  where the home button is I can feel that [TS]

  it has been activated I can physically [TS]

  press it all that stuff plays to the [TS]

  strengths of our hands and fingers which [TS]

  is how we use our iPhones and so [TS]

  anything Apple does related to that is [TS]

  wise to to leverage those abilities in [TS]

  the same way the touch bar tries to do [TS]

  that but because it has no haptics [TS]

  you're left with kind of a surface that [TS]

  you have to look at more than you would [TS]

  otherwise and you can press on it but [TS]

  it's more like a touchscreen in that it [TS]

  doesn't do anything when you press any [TS]

  of those things which is another reason [TS]

  a lot of people have difficulties with [TS]

  touch bar is that it is replacing [TS]

  buttons with some [TS]

  that is less button like whereas I feel [TS]

  like the iPhone 7 home button replace [TS]

  the button with something that is it's [TS]

  like an alternate take on a button but [TS]

  it is you know it's like it's like they [TS]

  replace the function keys on the MacBook [TS]

  with the screen from the iPhone the [TS]

  screen is not the same kind of a button [TS]

  because they don't know where the [TS]

  buttons are going to be but on the touch [TS]

  bar seems like you could know they were [TS]

  kind of you know anyway this is just my [TS]

  mild musings on haptics but I think they [TS]

  are long-term I think there's there's [TS]

  legs [TS]

  this whole haptic thing I mean you know [TS]

  as Apple has been so excited and proud [TS]

  to show it's a little you know how much [TS]

  better the vibration is in each phone [TS]

  and this haptic engine that they they [TS]

  branded with this taptic stuff I think [TS]

  they're actually onto something there I [TS]

  think we'll just see more and more of [TS]

  that from Apple and other companies [TS]

  because it works with humans but they [TS]

  could be apples slogan since they're not [TS]

  doing the computer with the rest of us [TS]

  anymore competing with the rest of us [TS]

  anymore it works with humans TM we were [TS]

  sponsored this week by Kasper and [TS]

  obsessively engineered mattress at a [TS]

  shockingly fair price go to Casper comm [TS]

  slash ATP and use code ATP for $50 [TS]

  towards your mattress Kasper created one [TS]

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  Commission driven inflated prices the [TS]

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  you can actually get it up your [TS]

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  they also offer adaptive pillow and soft [TS]

  breathable sheets and the mattress [TS]

  industry has been full of notoriously [TS]

  high markups forever Casper has [TS]

  revolutionized it by cutting the cost of [TS]

  dealing with all these resellers and [TS]

  showrooms and passing the savings to you [TS]

  the in-house team of engineers spent [TS]

  thousands of hours developing the Casper [TS]

  mattress with supportive memory foams [TS]

  for a sleep service with just the right [TS]

  sink and just the right balance and the [TS]

  breathable design sleep school to help [TS]

  you regulate your temperature throughout [TS]

  the night and they've made buying [TS]

  mattresses online which sounds kind of [TS]

  crazy completely easy and risk-free [TS]

  here's how they do it they offer free [TS]

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  over three months and if you don't love [TS]

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  at your house and give you a full refund [TS]

  it's that easy they understand the [TS]

  importance of truly sleeping on a [TS]

  mattress before you commit because [TS]

  you're going to be spending a third of [TS]

  your life on it now we've heard from [TS]

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  pickup completely all risk free go to [TS]

  Casper comm slash ATP and use code ATP [TS]

  for $50 towards your mattress thank you [TS]

  very much to Casper for sponsoring our [TS]

  show ah let's talk about a wiki Tribune [TS]

  of which I know basically nothing and I [TS]

  am failing at my job as chief summarizer [TS]

  in chief so Marco I feel like I saw you [TS]

  tweeting about this when it first broke [TS]

  do you want to kind of fill us in as to [TS]

  what wiki Tribune is about honestly I [TS]

  barely know I just signed up because I [TS]

  wanted to support this cause so John can [TS]

  you give a better summary than that I [TS]

  can this has been a no no it's like [TS]

  three weeks people but I think I think [TS]

  one place we can start is Marco with his [TS]

  lack of knowledge why did you decide to [TS]

  sign up for the what did you do by [TS]

  signing up did you did you like have to [TS]

  give money or pledge to give money like [TS]

  what what it was the signup thing that [TS]

  you did it's some kind of like pre [TS]

  commitment type system like Kickstarter [TS]

  but like I don't think they're gonna [TS]

  charge me until they hit their minimum [TS]

  or unless they hit their own in them [TS]

  something like that but is a money thing [TS]

  like yours you're supporting this effort [TS]

  with money right yeah I signed up to [TS]

  making monthly donation or whatever it [TS]

  is - all right so what led you to do [TS]

  that well basically there's a lot of [TS]

  things about journalism these days that [TS]

  I think are really dysfunctional or [TS]

  broken and this seems like it could fix [TS]

  some of them not all of them you know I [TS]

  don't think it's probably possible to [TS]

  fix all of them but this could fix some [TS]

  of them in a fairly big way so if it [TS]

  works that'll be great [TS]

  if not you know I I lost a little buddy [TS]

  on the way and then I'll stop losing it [TS]

  when I cancel it that's it you know it [TS]

  seems like a good cause I feel like all [TS]

  of the Wikipedia donation prompts that I [TS]

  think that I've ignored over the year [TS]

  closed for the year is about giving I [TS]

  feel like maybe I owe something to Jimmy [TS]

  Wales's causes so here here I'm going to [TS]

  finally make that good I guess so to go [TS]

  back and give a vague summary of what [TS]

  that this thing is it is from the [TS]

  Wikipedia guy you've seen his face the [TS]

  top of Wikipedia asking for money now [TS]

  you can see his face on a different [TS]

  website asking you for money for a [TS]

  different thing so it has the pedigree [TS]

  of you know Wikipedia which is a [TS]

  tremendously successful community [TS]

  platform for doing whatever is people do [TS]

  on Wikipedia and this is about trying to [TS]

  make the news better like Marco satis [TS]

  give the same some of the same [TS]

  complaints about news and the incentive [TS]

  structures and how doesn't lead to good [TS]

  information being disseminated and [TS]

  there's lots of all anti patterns and [TS]

  with how its funded and what gets [TS]

  published and how its published and [TS]

  versus what people want to read and you [TS]

  know what sells ads and so on and so [TS]

  forth so this is a sort of Wikipedia [TS]

  style approach to news where it's very [TS]

  open and transparent so you everyone [TS]

  who's reading can see what's going on [TS]

  there's no ads so you don't have to [TS]

  worry about the entire thing being made [TS]

  to you know to drive ad views which is a [TS]

  problem in the web in general not just [TS]

  sun news and everything like that and [TS]

  like wikipedia is community oriented [TS]

  where it's not just like these people [TS]

  produce the content and the rest of the [TS]

  world reads it everybody participates in [TS]

  in theory making the things better [TS]

  although there are professional [TS]

  journalists involved as well so it's not [TS]

  just like hey make up whatever you want [TS]

  and publish whatever you want because [TS]

  that's just called the web that's not [TS]

  that's not and trying to you know be [TS]

  transparent to the people who are giving [TS]

  money like a you know how are they going [TS]

  to fund all this through people like [TS]

  Marco same way Wikipedia is funded how [TS]

  does Wikipedia exist Jimmy Wales head [TS]

  ask you for money every once in a while [TS]

  and there are I'm swimming there [TS]

  investors or stuff like that and they [TS]

  have this kind of Venn diagram at the [TS]

  top where it shows three circles and the [TS]

  three circles our community facts and [TS]

  journalists and wiki wiki Tribune is the [TS]

  confusing diamond-shaped intersection of [TS]

  all three of those circles own when I [TS]

  see the intersection between three [TS]

  circles I don't get a diamond shape but [TS]

  it's a logo that's some creative license [TS]

  there it's fine yeah and so I think [TS]

  Markos explanation of why he gave money [TS]

  is is probably a lot of people gave [TS]

  money it's like or you know because it [TS]

  is like Kickstarter it's like you know [TS]

  you you pledge money and if everything [TS]

  goes well you will get charged for your [TS]

  money or whatever no probably will this [TS]

  is very popular but it seems like a [TS]

  small amount and just like a Kickstarter [TS]

  you're like I don't know if they'll ever [TS]

  shut this damn cooler but it will cool [TS]

  so yeah [TS]

  spoiler alert like it's not a big deal [TS]

  like if they never go anywhere or if I [TS]

  fund it for a few months and it's not [TS]

  that good whatever but I think there is [TS]

  an appetite for an attempt to find a [TS]

  solution to the fix all of you know it [TS]

  journalism finds itself in at this [TS]

  moment in transition between the old [TS]

  world of newspapers and the way this [TS]

  they were funded and the barriers to [TS]

  entry in this new world where it's much [TS]

  easier for more people to publish but [TS]

  it's much harder to find ways to fund [TS]

  content that isn't sort of lowest common [TS]

  denominator you know because people go [TS]

  what people want to read and what what [TS]

  it we would be most beneficial to [TS]

  society that if people were to read are [TS]

  two very different things and that is a [TS]

  you know the incentives are not aligned [TS]

  if the only way you can get money is by [TS]

  attracting people to read things you [TS]

  will inevitably end up giving people [TS]

  what they want which is not always what [TS]

  they need which is a paternalistic view [TS]

  that people hate like oh the people in [TS]

  the ivory tower can determine what I [TS]

  need to see why can't people just pick [TS]

  what they need to see there's a balance [TS]

  like I mean even even in the battle days [TS]

  of my childhood when there was no [TS]

  internet there were things called [TS]

  tabloids that provided you same stuff [TS]

  you can find on the internet now [TS]

  something that stuff is like oh that [TS]

  didn't exist before the Internet of [TS]

  course it did like you know batboy found [TS]

  the National Enquirer like you know [TS]

  aliens are everywhere right that stuff [TS]

  has always and will always exist and I'm [TS]

  not even sure if it's any more prevalent [TS]

  than it is today the difference today is [TS]

  that the sort of slow motion decline of [TS]

  the ivory tower we know it's best for [TS]

  you were to apply a bunch of reasoning [TS]

  rules that you don't know about or agree [TS]

  with to try to provide what we think is [TS]

  you know the news that's fit to print [TS]

  and that has been in slow decline mostly [TS]

  rightfully so because it's kind of a [TS]

  concentration of power that is not you [TS]

  know that is artificial you know [TS]

  technological barriers to distribution [TS]

  information causing you to exist but I [TS]

  would also say that in this new world [TS]

  where it's easier to just route [TS]

  information a lot of people like Marco [TS]

  and and me and I would imagine Casey are [TS]

  less satisfied with how things are going [TS]

  now that we want to go back at the old [TS]

  ways because that was been in a [TS]

  different set of ways but there there [TS]

  are pathologies in the new structure of [TS]

  news that we wish we could get rid of [TS]

  it's like you know we all want to read [TS]

  really good high-quality you know [TS]

  journalism according to the you know the [TS]

  system of journalism is like it's [TS]

  something that most of us can agree upon [TS]

  kind of like scientific method it's just [TS]

  the question of it is a you know how is [TS]

  it executed by fallible humans and how [TS]

  do we provide the resources for it to be [TS]

  executed and that's what this thing is [TS]

  trying to provide now my my personal [TS]

  grudge against disagreement with [TS]

  indifference to Wikipedia as an [TS]

  institution depending on how you want to [TS]

  phrase it gave it caused me to have a [TS]

  little snarky chuckle when I saw this [TS]

  this Venn diagram here [TS]

  it's like community journalists and [TS]

  facts where I don't need to give me well [TS]

  so like oh oh now you care about facts [TS]

  Jimmy rails I thought it was just all [TS]

  about verified villainy wait a sec it [TS]

  and maybe they don't mean facts maybe [TS]

  they actually mean verifiability but [TS]

  that's the thing about journalism [TS]

  journalism you know like they are [TS]

  pursuing the truth of what happened it's [TS]

  not enough for a journalist to say you [TS]

  know is what you know one thing is for [TS]

  reporters to say let me just tell you [TS]

  what somebody said but journalists tried [TS]

  to uncover the truth if they can find [TS]

  out what really happened by talking to [TS]

  more people and gathering evidence [TS]

  that's part of journalism too and the [TS]

  journalist is not going to call it a day [TS]

  when they have quotes from three [TS]

  prominent people about what happened the [TS]

  journalists would like to know yeah but [TS]

  would really happen right I know these [TS]

  quotes are verifiable I know you said [TS]

  this at this time [TS]

  and this other paper publish this thing [TS]

  but what really happened what are the [TS]

  facts and that is an important part of [TS]

  journalism that is not an important part [TS]

  of Wikipedia is what community doesn't [TS]

  care what the hell the facts are because [TS]

  that's not what it is this tertiary [TS]

  source I don't want to go off on my rant [TS]

  about Wikipedia again so it's kind of [TS]

  exciting to see this taking a different [TS]

  slant on things but as I scroll down [TS]

  through their plan and see like [TS]

  journalists and commute and community [TS]

  cooperating all I can think about is [TS]

  like this is like a battle arena for [TS]

  edit Wars it's like edit war is [TS]

  distilled because if you think they're [TS]

  edit wars on the Wikipedia page for you [TS]

  know insert favorite controversial [TS]

  political figure can you imagine what [TS]

  the Edit wars will be like on literally [TS]

  any actual current event news story in [TS]

  the current political climate like [TS]

  there's almost nothing you can put in [TS]

  there you know articles being you know [TS]

  fact checked and verified by journalists [TS]

  and community community members working [TS]

  side by side as equals and I just just [TS]

  picture a giant arena with like people [TS]

  with boards with nails sticking out of [TS]

  them like I don't I'm not sure how it [TS]

  can work and you say well look at [TS]

  Wikipedia it works yeah I mean like you [TS]

  know that that's the biggest example [TS]

  like Wikipedia has the same issue you [TS]

  know any any kind of you know political [TS]

  topic also has a Wikipedia page and they [TS]

  you know they've built systems and [TS]

  policies and norms up around controlling [TS]

  that problem there too and so you know I [TS]

  think if you I think if anybody has [TS]

  shown that they have the ability to [TS]

  manage that part of this it's the people [TS]

  who made Wikipedia and and who built [TS]

  that whole community up so that I think [TS]

  I'm actually not concerned about the [TS]

  whole edit war problem I also do I also [TS]

  don't really go to the graffiti is a [TS]

  counterexample there's like no the fact [TS]

  that so many pages on Wikipedia are [TS]

  incredibly locked down because of the [TS]

  Edit horrors almost to the point where [TS]

  they become frozen in time which is kind [TS]

  of ok for historical things but for for [TS]

  pages that are ongoing they become the [TS]

  sole domain of a very small number of [TS]

  people who have even the ability to edit [TS]

  page and everybody else is completely [TS]

  locked out and yet still they have edit [TS]

  wars and arguments about what goes up [TS]

  like if not you can't do journalism in [TS]

  that environment I feel like the [TS]

  controversial pages on Wikipedia [TS]

  our a not the best source for [TS]

  information on their topics and B do a [TS]

  terrible job of staying up to date and C [TS]

  do not allow the input from the [TS]

  community because they have to be walled [TS]

  off they have to be cemented set in [TS]

  stone guarded night and day [TS]

  incredibly protected they become [TS]

  ossified I think the best pages on [TS]

  Wikipedia are the pages that few people [TS]

  care about but you know the classic [TS]

  example of being like lists of Pokemon [TS]

  and stuff right [TS]

  because oh I'll go K no one know well [TS]

  maybe they're already wars in Pokemon [TS]

  sorry if I'm big but like but pages that [TS]

  are on more obscure topics because the [TS]

  only people who edit and contribute to [TS]

  them are the people who really are [TS]

  interested in the topic no one cares [TS]

  enough to vandalize it or edit them and [TS]

  no one is there telling them what they [TS]

  can and can't add and especially if they [TS]

  don't have any kind of political or [TS]

  factional angle again Pokemon may not be [TS]

  great example they end up being filled [TS]

  with all sorts of interesting and useful [TS]

  information whereas the stories in any [TS]

  topic that has any controversial at any [TS]

  part of it that's controversial you're [TS]

  better off just scrolling to the bottom [TS]

  looking all the references and reading [TS]

  all those than actually reading the [TS]

  Wikipedia page so I mean I get what [TS]

  you're saying about they have systems in [TS]

  place but I think the system's negate [TS]

  the advantages they're trying to do we [TS]

  just fly every Wikipedia because every [TS]

  page on Wikipedia is not a super duper [TS]

  controversial page in fact very few of [TS]

  them are so the vast majority wikipedia [TS]

  is awesome when you just want to get a [TS]

  quick plot synopsis of a particular [TS]

  episode of Doctor Who in a particular [TS]

  season that's on Wikipedia and you'll [TS]

  find it quickly and the webpage won't be [TS]

  gross or filled with ads and it's a [TS]

  reliable source for that because no one [TS]

  cares enough about to screw with it or [TS]

  as reliable as any source could be but [TS]

  when you go to any page having to do [TS]

  with any controversial topic I feel like [TS]

  like when's the last time you read a [TS]

  Wikipedia page and a controversial topic [TS]

  like I don't I don't even bother going [TS]

  to them anymore like I would again [TS]

  rather just scroll right down to the [TS]

  references and read the you know primary [TS]

  and secondary sources than this dystocia [TS]

  Airy summary because it doesn't it [TS]

  doesn't speak to me as a as a great [TS]

  source of information well I mean keep [TS]

  in mind that you know these days every [TS]

  fact is a controversial topic even in [TS]

  those days of things that you would [TS]

  think wouldn't be and also that you know [TS]

  wiki Tribune is is I think largely [TS]

  probably not going to have this problem [TS]

  because it's probably not going to be [TS]

  that big of a deal if it does become a [TS]

  big deal if it does actually start [TS]

  attracting large amounts of traffic [TS]

  then I think it will rise to the the [TS]

  levels of you know these kinds of [TS]

  challenges that Wikipedia has because [TS]

  Wikipedia has been you know such a [TS]

  massive you know traffic getter for so [TS]

  long so you know it's ranked so well [TS]

  everywhere but like wiki Tribune is [TS]

  starting from zero it's starting from no [TS]

  audience basically so it might be a [TS]

  while before you had enough people to [TS]

  matter and honestly I disagree with you [TS]

  I think Wikipedia is as good as [TS]

  something like this could be about [TS]

  dealing with controversial things like [TS]

  that you know it's it's a hard problem [TS]

  but but the bar it depends on the [TS]

  contrary I mean use the main controversy [TS]

  I haven't use Wikipedia controversial [TS]

  pages is the idea that the people who [TS]

  hold the keys to power to the [TS]

  controversial pages themselves tend to [TS]

  be homogeneous and have various biases [TS]

  let's say yeah that's a private and that [TS]

  the system itself has no way to deal [TS]

  with that like that it concentrates [TS]

  power like I like I'm thinking of wiki [TS]

  Tribune as perhaps an unintentional [TS]

  backdoor way to get people to just [TS]

  straight up pay for news which many [TS]

  people the front-door way has been like [TS]

  hey sign up for the New York Times [TS]

  digital like can we can we make money [TS]

  from people paying us to read our web [TS]

  pages everyone's been trying to do that [TS]

  it's really difficult the whole paywall [TS]

  thing right wiki Tribune is like we're [TS]

  open and free to everybody man fast [TS]

  forward five years if they get super [TS]

  popular and they lock everything down [TS]

  and eventually it's like wait a second [TS]

  this is just a newspaper where [TS]

  professional journals do things and [TS]

  people pay them and it's not a giant [TS]

  community published thing it is like a [TS]

  bunch of articles that nobody can add it [TS]

  picks every single story about the [TS]

  president is super duper controversial [TS]

  and every one of them is super lock down [TS]

  the only people get edited of the [TS]

  professional journalists who get money [TS]

  from the contributors and the five [TS]

  people who all happen to be the same [TS]

  type of person with the same type of [TS]

  background who has the time and [TS]

  inclination to spend all day on a wiki [TS]

  Tribune and now it is just a weirdly [TS]

  organized newspaper that you'll pay for [TS]

  which wouldn't be the end of the world [TS]

  because again that's things that people [TS]

  have been looking for hey can we get [TS]

  people to pay money to support News like [TS]

  as opposed to wanting everything for [TS]

  free and wanting every article to be you [TS]

  know a click Beatty tabloid e celebrity [TS]

  news kind of thing I guess if they do [TS]

  that they're kind of a success but I [TS]

  have a hard time envisioning a future [TS]

  where that where [TS]

  or they are wildly successful and yet [TS]

  still still even open to the degree that [TS]

  Wikipedia is open because unlike [TS]

  Wikipedia pretty much everything a news [TS]

  organization will report will attract [TS]

  factions okay like like you said Marco [TS]

  they could report on the weather and [TS]

  people will yeah well we'll leave nasty [TS]

  comments about you know climate denial [TS]

  so that you know like that I can't think [TS]

  of a top there's not even a human [TS]

  interest story if I try to put something [TS]

  about dogs and people won't like it like [TS]

  nothing is safe in this climate so they [TS]

  have their work cut out for them but all [TS]

  this said I don't feel like I'm slamming [TS]

  would be on the potential what it could [TS]

  be [TS]

  I didn't donate any money but I wish [TS]

  them well because I also like Marco want [TS]

  somebody to address this problem and no [TS]

  one has it tried this proach no one with [TS]

  of this caliber has a tried this [TS]

  approach so we're not going to find out [TS]

  if it works unless somebody does it and [TS]

  so I'm like alright you know go forward [TS]

  like I certainly the fact that facts [TS]

  with a little arrow is a big circle in [TS]

  the middle makes me happy by all means [TS]

  go for that the other aspect of this is [TS]

  say they succeed in producing what they [TS]

  say they're going to produce and their [TS]

  system produces good content do people [TS]

  read it I guess [TS]

  like is that something people want to do [TS]

  I want to go to wiki Tribune because [TS]

  they have they got their facts straight [TS]

  I mean everyone wants a non-partisan [TS]

  news source right now they don't know [TS]

  everyone wants to hear their own their [TS]

  own biases reflected to them and repairs [TS]

  people want like I said something like [TS]

  how do they get people to come and read [TS]

  this like it was easier when you only [TS]

  had a few choices and all those choices [TS]

  had you know had systems in place that [TS]

  constrained what could be talked about [TS]

  which perpetuated you know tons of [TS]

  systems of power in terms of whose [TS]

  stories got to get told with what angle [TS]

  on them so it was terrible in many many [TS]

  ways but the good aspects of it were in [TS]

  the areas where the system wasn't [TS]

  completely aligned against hearing about [TS]

  things that you know that we weren't [TS]

  supposed to hear about there was an [TS]

  expectation that for example the news [TS]

  department and advertising were [TS]

  separated from each other in some way [TS]

  like that was part of the [TS]

  suppose they work based on and that only [TS]

  works if the news department isn't isn't [TS]

  responsible for bringing in more money [TS]

  if year after year after year and that [TS]

  ship is long sailed so now it's like got [TS]

  to make more money got to get more [TS]

  viewers how do we do that tell them what [TS]

  they want to hear and the cyclist goes [TS]

  around around that's what this is trying [TS]

  to resolve so say it resolves it and [TS]

  they make real quality news but no one [TS]

  ever comes and reads it they still a [TS]

  success [TS]

  maybe I don't I think I really think [TS]

  this could be very popular because I [TS]

  think somebody like that the two of you [TS]

  guys and myself somebody like us who [TS]

  wants to be informed but wants a very [TS]

  level-headed take as to what's going on [TS]

  I think this is a potentially pert well [TS]

  maybe not perfect but a really great [TS]

  answer to that need I agree with you [TS]

  that I shouldn't have said everyone [TS]

  wants this because a lot of people [TS]

  probably don't want this but I also [TS]

  think there's a lot of people that do [TS]

  want this that do you want a [TS]

  level-headed take on things that's why [TS]

  for example in my RSS reader that I [TS]

  rarely look at anymore my source of news [TS]

  is the BBC because I have the BBC's us [TS]

  coverage and I feel like that is the [TS]

  least politically motivated news source [TS]

  that I can find I don't need to hear of [TS]

  better ones I don't really care if the [TS]

  BBC is imperfect that's I'm not trying [TS]

  to start a fight here oh they just [TS]

  they're just reinforcing your biases [TS]

  that's why you like them if it could be [TS]

  very well could be that's what I thought [TS]

  that's the situation I think we find [TS]

  ourselves in wait wait what if your [TS]

  biases are true in fact I'll say yeah [TS]

  the idea here's the problem with it with [TS]

  polarized marketplace is that you know [TS]

  things don't exist in isolation say [TS]

  there was a news source that would did a [TS]

  really good job but did a really good [TS]

  job of executing journalism classic [TS]

  journalism the rule of journalism which [TS]

  you know like the traditional rules of [TS]

  journalism in terms of what you're [TS]

  supposed to do as a reporter and what [TS]

  your job is and isn't all separate from [TS]

  you know editorial and opinion which is [TS]

  a whole separate thing but just like the [TS]

  plain straight up journalism reporting [TS]

  thing there's still an editorial [TS]

  function deciding what should and [TS]

  shouldn't you cover how many stories in [TS]

  topic a [TS]

  the source and topic could be how many [TS]

  how many stories about this aspect of [TS]

  whatever like it's impossible to pull [TS]

  yourself entirely away from that and [TS]

  it's also impossible to think about what [TS]

  your publication is doing in isolation [TS]

  you exist as a publication in an [TS]

  ecosystem with tons of other [TS]

  publications and a lot of the ecosystem [TS]

  is defined by how many people read or [TS]

  you know watch or whatever consumed [TS]

  these different publications and in that [TS]

  environment that's why you see a lot of [TS]

  like you know people on our side of the [TS]

  world liberals or whatever being drawn [TS]

  to liberal-leaning [TS]

  publications because they see it as the [TS]

  only possible way to counterbalance the [TS]

  things leaning in the other direction [TS]

  because we know those things that [TS]

  leaning the other direction exist we [TS]

  know what we all think they're terrible [TS]

  and we know tons and tons of people use [TS]

  them as their exclusive source of news [TS]

  and so by providing it a neutral thing [TS]

  it's like well that's all well and good [TS]

  if we just want to know what's happening [TS]

  but if we want to balance the scales and [TS]

  that we have to have a left-leaning [TS]

  publication and eventually like I want [TS]

  to read the left-leaning thing because [TS]

  all I hear all day from you know people [TS]

  who I disagree with is them citing [TS]

  they're super duper right-leaning things [TS]

  and so don't lean and that's how you end [TS]

  up with polarization SuperDuper [TS]

  left-wing super duper right-leaning and [TS]

  so I I don't feel like I want that I I [TS]

  tried to find something that I think is [TS]

  in the middle but like Casey with the [TS]

  BBC I'm sure what I think is in the [TS]

  middle is not actually in the middle and [TS]

  really what I'm seeking is some you know [TS]

  some it's not in the execution of the [TS]

  journalism but in the choice of what [TS]

  they're reporting about right or in the [TS]

  choice of like you know what their [TS]

  editorials are about and how they [TS]

  apportion their coverage because that in [TS]

  itself is is a political stance right so [TS]

  when I read the Washington Post I feel [TS]

  like here's good reporting here they're [TS]

  still executing journalism according to [TS]

  the old ways but what the Washington [TS]

  Post decides to cover is decidedly [TS]

  left-leaning in terms of the number of [TS]

  stories on topic ABC and D right and I'm [TS]

  okay with that but I would still you [TS]

  know and I would still say the [TS]

  Washington Post and even the New York [TS]

  Times are examples of good executions of [TS]

  classic journalism [TS]

  but I would also agree that both of them [TS]

  are quote unquote left-leaning as [TS]

  compared to the choices of things and [TS]

  headlines that the right leading [TS]

  publications choose to cover and they're [TS]

  they're a counterbalance right so if [TS]

  there was something was really straight [TS]

  up the middle I'm not sure that would be [TS]

  doing much of a service because [TS]

  especially if the two polar polarize [TS]

  ends continue to be what they are unless [TS]

  everybody at the ends it kind of agrees [TS]

  like like the wikipedia wicked tribune [TS]

  is like the tiebreaker right and as [TS]

  marco pointed out before and we'll keep [TS]

  going back to that is impossible in a [TS]

  world where we can't agree on the facts [TS]

  there is no it's like well we have we [TS]

  have you know the this left-leaning [TS]

  editorial selection and we have this [TS]

  right reading editorial selection but we [TS]

  all agree that the facts of water and we [TS]

  keep your being right and be like no no [TS]

  the right will say we don't agree on [TS]

  facts at all and so what function is [TS]

  what you tribune even serving there [TS]

  unless it starts getting cited by the [TS]

  newspapers which would be funny but [TS]

  we'll see I mean at this point there are [TS]

  people actually arguing whether to let [TS]

  people die in our country who were sick [TS]

  once because they don't have enough [TS]

  money and they should therefore die that [TS]

  is that is literally what we are arguing [TS]

  about [TS]

  I like the better in the 80s when they [TS]

  have like sophisticated sophisticated [TS]

  ideological arguments but they have [TS]

  abandoned those now it's just like why [TS]

  should you get to live like good point [TS]

  they're evil person why should I get to [TS]

  live what right do I have to life or [TS]

  liberty or any kind of you know looking [TS]

  for happiness that sounds crazy to me [TS]

  yeah I mean it was your fault that you [TS]

  got you know sick when you were a [TS]

  teenager or something so therefore you [TS]

  know the penalty for that should [TS]

  obviously be death right I should try to [TS]

  look like a child living right Marco [TS]

  here I think of that yeah I mean look we [TS]

  all did it right why can't you yeah you [TS]

  know the Jimmy Kimmel son did you guys [TS]

  watch that that monologue hoodie days [TS]

  ago I heard enough about it that I [TS]

  couldn't watch it I so I saw it fly by [TS]

  I've been doing a couch to 5k lately and [TS]

  and during one of the walking parts I [TS]

  was like you know cruising through [TS]

  Twitter as I was power walking probably [TS]

  look like a moron [TS]

  but be that as it may whatever day was [TS]

  this this popped in the [TS]

  earning onto my you know my world and I [TS]

  watched it or listen to it I should say [TS]

  I didn't watch any of it I listened to [TS]

  it as I was like going between walking [TS]

  and running and walking and running and [TS]

  basically I was on the verge of balling [TS]

  the entire time but if you're one of [TS]

  those monsters that thinks that a [TS]

  pre-existing condition is something that [TS]

  you know just that's enough to [TS]

  disqualify you that's cool um you should [TS]

  read the ER you should listen to the [TS]

  story about Jimmy Kimmel's son who was [TS]

  born with a terrible heart defect and [TS]

  were it not for some of the protections [TS]

  I know we shouldn't be getting this [TS]

  political but here we are without some [TS]

  of these protections that I know it's [TS]

  important you know like it's certain you [TS]

  know we as we've talked about like [TS]

  certain times politics your other world [TS]

  events do bleed into relevance to all [TS]

  people and I and I think this is one of [TS]

  those times like this is a topic that [TS]

  that is among many things so politicized [TS]

  more than I think it probably should be [TS]

  and I think a lot of that is [TS]

  intentionally artificial to hide the [TS]

  things that the politicians really want [TS]

  to get accomplished which mostly have to [TS]

  do with money for themselves and and you [TS]

  know their their class of people and [TS]

  their associates and lobbyists and [TS]

  everything else so there's lots of that [TS]

  stuff going on in the background here [TS]

  and we're arguing about you know whether [TS]

  people who have not been as lucky as [TS]

  some of us should go bankrupt and die [TS]

  because of that and that's that is [TS]

  unconscionable yeah yeah so anyway so [TS]

  this this Jimmy Kimmel thing it's a [TS]

  little under 15 minutes it's worth every [TS]

  second in my personal opinion and in [TS]

  like I said I was on the verge of [TS]

  balling the entire time I listened to it [TS]

  but the short short version is his son [TS]

  had a terrible heart defect he is now [TS]

  fine and you if some of the changes to [TS]

  American healthcare that have been [TS]

  proposed pass then his son would never [TS]

  be able to have health insurance for the [TS]

  rest his life because he was born with a [TS]

  problem with his heart so yeah I guess [TS]

  the son should have been living in the [TS]

  womb better and made better choices in [TS]

  utero and then he wouldn't have this [TS]

  problem right that's how this works yeah [TS]

  they may listen to too much heavy metal [TS]

  music who knows I mean and the thing [TS]

  like this isn't [TS]

  it's not like this is a theoretical it's [TS]

  not like you know we think people will [TS]

  go bankrupt and die because of this note [TS]

  we know because that's how it was before [TS]

  the ACA a lot of people went bankrupt [TS]

  and died this is not a small thing this [TS]

  is not an unknown it's very much known [TS]

  we were there it was horrible we tried [TS]

  to fix it as best as we could and it [TS]

  wasn't perfect but the right fix is not [TS]

  to go back to that we've seen it already [TS]

  we've tried that I don't know why this [TS]

  is even possibly a point of contention [TS]

  well I dunno why really but it's not a [TS]

  good reason yeah and one of the things [TS]

  that um was fascinating by about having [TS]

  this tweet that uh that I'd sent in in [TS]

  January about the Affordable Care Act [TS]

  which will link all this and show notes [TS]

  but one of the fascinating things about [TS]

  having a tweet that gets retweeted [TS]

  16,000 times is that everyone and their [TS]

  mother comes and tells you about why [TS]

  you're right why you're wrong and in the [TS]

  tweet that I had tweeted read opposition [TS]

  I've heard to the Affordable Care Act [TS]

  number one it costs me money number two [TS]

  it's not perfect support for the [TS]

  Affordable gif that I've heard for the [TS]

  Affordable Care Act number one I would [TS]

  have died without the coverage [TS]

  guaranteed which is what we're talking [TS]

  about and man so many people came out of [TS]

  the woodwork and like no you don't get [TS]

  it it's about this it's about that one [TS]

  person had said I forget how he phrased [TS]

  it but something along the lines of I [TS]

  shouldn't have to pay for people who eat [TS]

  McDonald's all the time to deal with [TS]

  their diabetes so okay III live health I [TS]

  live a healthy life I shouldn't have to [TS]

  pay for all these unhealthy people well [TS]

  aren't you a winner but anyway after [TS]

  just hundreds of stories about the [TS]

  Affordable Care Act more it's great and [TS]

  why it's terrible the only good opening [TS]

  my estimation anyway the only good [TS]

  answer I heard about why the Affordable [TS]

  Care Act was bad was that some people [TS]

  said well I make enough that I'm priced [TS]

  out of all the subsidy tiers and I'm way [TS]

  oversimplifying here but I I make enough [TS]

  money that I'm priced out of all the [TS]

  like super cheap tiers but I don't [TS]

  really make enough to afford like the [TS]

  the whatever the opposite scenario was I [TS]

  forget what it what it is but basically [TS]

  they were in this like- this really [TS]

  terrible middle-of-the-road [TS]

  here's an example this is somebody that [TS]

  tweeted I pay more than I can afford for [TS]

  insurance with the deductible too high [TS]

  to matter it's that's pretty crummy and [TS]

  that should get fixed but everything [TS]

  else was like just people who basically [TS]

  are looking for their fellow man to die [TS]

  because they didn't want to pay for them [TS]

  to live and that's just I don't [TS]

  understand how this is a question how is [TS]

  this a question right now I don't get it [TS]

  that's the thing is like like there's [TS]

  your that that sentiment of like why [TS]

  should I pay for the people who aren't [TS]

  healthy like that is such a toxic way to [TS]

  think because like okay well let's [TS]

  follow that through if that's what you [TS]

  think that you don't that you shouldn't [TS]

  have to pay for people who are you know [TS]

  who do things that you don't like or [TS]

  whatever and that makes them unhealthy [TS]

  even though a lot of times they can't [TS]

  help what has made them unhealthy but [TS]

  anyway suppose you don't want to pay for [TS]

  it okay [TS]

  what should the penalty be for someone [TS]

  who does this thing you don't like who [TS]

  can't afford it is that punishable by [TS]

  death is is that an appropriate you know [TS]

  penalty like literally like that's like [TS]

  is that is that your actual position [TS]

  like if that's what you think don't ask [TS]

  questions you don't want the answers to [TS]

  is they would say yes of course they're [TS]

  getting what they deserve that's exactly [TS]

  what they say I mean if these people [TS]

  actually think that way I think they [TS]

  should own that I think they should come [TS]

  right out and say yes I think all these [TS]

  people who who can't afford the health [TS]

  care should die like if that's what they [TS]

  think let's let's bring that discussion [TS]

  let's see how that discussion goes in [TS]

  the hotel we have people in Congress [TS]

  owning that at this point that's true I [TS]

  don't think it's that a position people [TS]

  are shrinking from and I mean but and [TS]

  the thing is like you can apply that [TS]

  kind of thinking you know I should I [TS]

  have to pay that to everything that [TS]

  government provides like that's kind of [TS]

  the whole nature of government like it [TS]

  provides a bunch of services with with [TS]

  people's tax money most of which you [TS]

  know like any given person probably [TS]

  doesn't directly use a lot of these [TS]

  services but they've also benefit from [TS]

  lots of other ones and it's a different [TS]

  pool for each person you know and that's [TS]

  the role of government like why should I [TS]

  pay for a giant military that starts [TS]

  wars I don't want well that's just part [TS]

  of the government like its it it's part [TS]

  of our system we vote for things and [TS]

  that you know this is what happens and [TS]

  and sometimes our votes even are counted [TS]

  properly and equally and I just this [TS]

  this is so toxic and I [TS]

  I wish I I wish I knew what it was that [TS]

  made people so hateful everybody else [TS]

  really like maybe it's just because [TS]

  everyone else listens to way less fish [TS]

  than I do but I just cannot possibly [TS]

  understand what it is that makes someone [TS]

  think to themselves oh I would those [TS]

  people don't deserve to live [TS]

  like I I don't I don't get that at all [TS]

  and that's what makes me really sad that [TS]

  that that is such a prevalent attitude [TS]

  as well as they hearkened back to the [TS]

  the days of the 80s when it was commonly [TS]

  accepted that the goal was to make [TS]

  people healthier and the only argument [TS]

  was about how best to do that the [TS]

  free-market can do it know the [TS]

  government could do it know the [TS]

  government is inefficient and bloated [TS]

  and we will have a better system of [TS]

  without competition and bla bla black [TS]

  that was levelled the argument that was [TS]

  going on right and these days that is [TS]

  not like the level the argument that the [TS]

  accepted premises of trying to get [TS]

  everybody as healthy as possible like [TS]

  people barely on the right give you know [TS]

  barely make faints in that direction [TS]

  like they're not even interested in [TS]

  saying you don't understand this way [TS]

  people will actually be healthier fewer [TS]

  people will die like everyone will you [TS]

  know then that's they'll they'll say [TS]

  that at the broad level but they will [TS]

  not make they will not actually show how [TS]

  the numbers add up they will not show [TS]

  their math I will not say look here's [TS]

  what we say even if it's just bs [TS]

  predictions BS sort of trickle down any [TS]

  predictions if we allow this to happen [TS]

  and this competition happens here and [TS]

  there what's going to happen you know [TS]

  let me show you my BS model with BS [TS]

  predictions that are going to do that [TS]

  feel like we don't need to do that we [TS]

  just wave our hands and you know pick [TS]

  one person against the other and get [TS]

  boat do what it takes to get this past [TS]

  and then you know then we end up with [TS]

  what we end up with I miss I miss the [TS]

  the pretend intellectual debates is what [TS]

  I'm saying [TS]

  I just I don't get it just makes me so [TS]

  sad like it's it's just I don't [TS]

  understand how any intelligent human [TS]

  being with three brain cells to rub [TS]

  together can think that the Affordable [TS]

  Care Act is bad I just don't get it like [TS]

  oh it's not perfect no it is bad I mean [TS]

  it's but but it's you know it's like [TS]

  what should we move to something worse [TS]

  I'm gonna say no we say no we shouldn't [TS]

  do that right the whole like you know [TS]

  perfect enemy of the good thing like you [TS]

  know healthcare is is a hard problem [TS]

  it's really expensive to provide health [TS]

  care for people that has to be paid for [TS]

  somehow whether you're you know whether [TS]

  it's people paying themselves or whether [TS]

  it's government single-payer to kind of [TS]

  things or some kind of weird thing [TS]

  between like what we have now like it's [TS]

  just it's a hard problem it's a really [TS]

  hard problem but that you know the ACA [TS]

  took this really hard problem that was [TS]

  really in a bad state before and made it [TS]

  less bad and yeah the cost went up we [TS]

  are all paying more now for worse [TS]

  coverage but that was happening anyway [TS]

  anybody who was actually paying for [TS]

  their coverage before the ACA saw that [TS]

  trend already in fact with the ACA I'm [TS]

  I'm still now paying less than what I [TS]

  paid the year before the ACA went to [TS]

  effect and the coverage isn't as good [TS]

  but I'm actually still netting less per [TS]

  year expenditure for it and also I'm Way [TS]

  less worried about some crazy hitting [TS]

  some crazy limit or you know like a [TS]

  lifetime limit or present conditions all [TS]

  of a sudden excluding everyone from [TS]

  everything like this is a better system [TS]

  and it still sucks and that's why people [TS]

  are so mad because it is still really [TS]

  expensive and coverage still does really [TS]

  suck and we all have high deductibles [TS]

  now and we all have like having to go [TS]

  through crappy mail-order pharmacies for [TS]

  our prescriptions but that was happening [TS]

  before whatever the Republicans get [TS]

  through whatever they do to this I [TS]

  guarantee you your coverage is still [TS]

  going to be really expensive and you're [TS]

  still gonna have to deal with BS from [TS]

  mail-order pharmacies and having to fill [TS]

  all these different referrals [TS]

  everything's that's all going to still [TS]

  be there and your costs are going to go [TS]

  up the year after that and the year [TS]

  after that and every year after that [TS]

  your costs are going to keep going up [TS]

  and up and up this whatever they pass is [TS]

  not going to solve that it can't what [TS]

  they all they're trying to do is go back [TS]

  to the way it was before the ACA which [TS]

  sucked [TS]

  and yet the ACA sucks but that sucked [TS]

  way more before and that's what they [TS]

  want to go back to it is really hard to [TS]

  talk with us because literally thousands [TS]

  of additional peope [TS]

  we'll die every year because of this [TS]

  like this is not a small thing this [TS]

  isn't just like oh I'll have an extra [TS]

  200 bucks a month it's as like no [TS]

  thousands of people will die and like [TS]

  you know you look at things that change [TS]

  in our country policies laws liberties [TS]

  that change in our country as a result [TS]

  of say September 11th lots of things [TS]

  change because of that and then if you [TS]

  look at like how many people are dying [TS]

  unnecessarily because of not having [TS]

  proper health care it is such a massive [TS]

  problem and so many people go bankrupt [TS]

  or die or both unnecessarily it is [TS]

  unconscionable to me that we that we [TS]

  still continue to try to go back to the [TS]

  way it was because it was worse and I [TS]

  and again like I know I know why people [TS]

  are so mad at the ACA because they see [TS]

  those bills coming in every month for [TS]

  the it for the healthcare and they'll oh [TS]

  yeah my premium keeps going up my [TS]

  coverage keep getting worse yeah but [TS]

  that was happening before this made it a [TS]

  little bit less crappy for everybody and [TS]

  now we're going to go back to that I [TS]

  just it's it's awful it's a cut off your [TS]

  nose in spite to spite your face [TS]

  situation and after tomorrow you won't [TS]

  be able to get your nose put back on and [TS]

  then it'll be a pre-existing condition [TS]

  if you try to switch coverage so you're [TS]

  just screwed the whole way down mm-hmm [TS]

  but don't worry guys at least the [TS]

  figurehead of the new system won't be a [TS]

  black guy so it's all good now yeah or [TS]

  woman heaven forbid we are sponsored [TS]

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  ever could thank you very much to endo [TS]

  chino for sponsoring our show ah Amazon [TS]

  releases the Eco look here again I don't [TS]

  know a lot about it except in this case [TS]

  it's because I really don't care but [TS]

  apparently it's an echo with a camera [TS]

  that will tell you if you look good or [TS]

  not or something along those lines so [TS]

  what's going on here and are we [TS]

  enthusiastic about it John you get him [TS]

  one I don't think I'm gonna get one of [TS]

  these but I actually am because I'm [TS]

  enthusiastic about it but I think what [TS]

  it is doing is a natural thing to do and [TS]

  I think we're going to see more of it [TS]

  not less like in the same way that I was [TS]

  strangely or at least not uniquely but [TS]

  it was I think I had more enthusiasm for [TS]

  the Amazon echo when they first showed [TS]

  that little ad with the cylinder more [TS]

  more optimism let's say that this could [TS]

  potentially be a cool useful thing then [TS]

  most people who saw up is they were like [TS]

  this looks dumb it's never going to work [TS]

  and I had the same kind of this looks [TS]

  dumb and it's not going to work as well [TS]

  as they show a working reaction to but I [TS]

  was also kind of like this class of [TS]

  device seems like it could be a thing [TS]

  and now I see this which is like [TS]

  essentially a little camera so I imagine [TS]

  combining with [TS]

  with a camera it's a camera that you can [TS]

  talk to that a some awareness of who and [TS]

  where you are and it has some specific [TS]

  functionality having to do with fashion [TS]

  and Amazon trying to sell you clothes [TS]

  and yadda-yadda like I don't think the [TS]

  details matter that much except that [TS]

  this is like because it's Amazon and [TS]

  because they have the pedigree of the [TS]

  echo that this product and because [TS]

  they're going to push it like crazy on [TS]

  their website that this product has as [TS]

  good a chance as any to be the first [TS]

  product to get any kind of traction in [TS]

  this category the category is simply a [TS]

  computer that you can talk to that also [TS]

  can see you write the Damelin echo and [TS]

  the dot and and Google home and all [TS]

  those things are like a computer that [TS]

  you can talk to a computer that you can [TS]

  talk to they can also see you natural [TS]

  evolution the number of things that you [TS]

  can do with that ability with all of our [TS]

  even just current technology for like [TS]

  facial recognition and identifying [TS]

  things in scenes and you know the Kinect [TS]

  Xbox style understanding gestures and [TS]

  your position in the position of your [TS]

  body and stuff like that that is a rich [TS]

  vein of interaction with computing [TS]

  devices that we should begin to tap and [TS]

  if it has to be a weird fashion camera [TS]

  that spies on you and uploads pictures [TS]

  of you to Amazon to sell you more [TS]

  clothes I mean the cylinder had to ended [TS]

  up being in Amazon things let you buy [TS]

  paper towels by talking to it like [TS]

  things come in weird packages right like [TS]

  man I suppose it beats the old way which [TS]

  is everything had to be attached to porn [TS]

  in some way to get an interaction all [TS]

  this potentially could be as well but I [TS]

  put it I am enthusiastic about the [TS]

  future of devices that are computers [TS]

  that can hear and see you and so I think [TS]

  there needs to be more of these things [TS]

  and they need to get better and they [TS]

  will be cool and make our lives better [TS]

  provided we can avoid all the pitfalls [TS]

  that which is basically people are [TS]

  talking about the echo all the privacy [TS]

  and security and you know just general [TS]

  creepiness implications but I think I [TS]

  think the foundation is sound so I wish [TS]

  them I wish them some success that I [TS]

  hope they learn from it and branch out [TS]

  I'm just now watching the video quickly [TS]

  I don't wait you know with no audio I'm [TS]

  just looking at the video as you're [TS]

  talking and [TS]

  and I think I would have noticed but [TS]

  certainly was called out in one of the [TS]

  podcast I was into this week that there [TS]

  isn't a man in this video until like the [TS]

  last ten seconds which is actually [TS]

  pretty cool that they're you know [TS]

  pitching this directly women and and I [TS]

  think you're it stands to reason that [TS]

  your average woman would be more [TS]

  enthusiastic about this in your average [TS]

  man obviously that's not a universal [TS]

  truth but I think that's kind of cool [TS]

  and I personally am NOT in love be [TS]

  partially because I haven't really lived [TS]

  it I'm not in love with the idea of an [TS]

  echo in general let alone an echo with [TS]

  eyes but again just because I'm not [TS]

  really gaga for it doesn't mean it's not [TS]

  a good idea not a good device it's just [TS]

  it's not something that I feel like I [TS]

  need right now [TS]

  Marco so first of all there was a [TS]

  there's a great discussion about this [TS]

  especially by Lisa Schmeisser who knows [TS]

  a lot about retail on the first episode [TS]

  of the new reel a podcast called [TS]

  download this is kind of this is like [TS]

  Jason Snell's kind of new hosted show [TS]

  almost like an expanded clockwise but [TS]

  more broad and even more produced and [TS]

  like even more wide audience [TS]

  I'm guessing over time this might become [TS]

  the biggest show on relay and one of the [TS]

  biggest tech shows period so I would [TS]

  suggest getting on the ground floor and [TS]

  going to subscribe to download now at [TS]

  relay to FM slash download anyway they [TS]

  didn't pay me or even asked me to say [TS]

  that but I think you should because [TS]

  that's really good anyway great [TS]

  discussion on episode one by Lisa miser [TS]

  especially about this from the retail [TS]

  point of view from a lot of good [TS]

  knowledge that we don't personally have [TS]

  but a grilling I've really enjoyed [TS]

  anyway I'm with you you know obviously [TS]

  this is being marketed heavily towards [TS]

  women and it's hard for me to fully [TS]

  understand it as both a man and also a [TS]

  man who doesn't care at all about his [TS]

  own personal fashion and so it's on your [TS]

  wrist except on my wrist I care very [TS]

  much about that but I don't need a [TS]

  camera tell me which watch to wear [TS]

  everyday I just put on the one I'm done [TS]

  I feel like wearing and I enjoy it but [TS]

  you know that's if there was one that [TS]

  took a wrist shot for me every day and [TS]

  compete like and gave me like a wrist [TS]

  book of shots of how I looked over time [TS]

  maybe that might [TS]

  do something I don't know it it bottom [TS]

  line this isn't for me and so I I don't [TS]

  want to try to I don't want to make [TS]

  large proclamations about it either way [TS]

  because it's fundamentally a product I [TS]

  understand and this made it very clear [TS]

  to me by the reactions on Twitter when [TS]

  this was announced it was [TS]

  extraordinarily polarized tech dudes [TS]

  like us largely said largely made fun of [TS]

  it and said why would anybody want to [TS]

  buy this oh my god Amazon is nuts [TS]

  and a lot of people who were not tech [TS]

  dudes who you know I would venture to [TS]

  guess that most of us myself included [TS]

  probably where the basic you know [TS]

  t-shirt every day that we don't have to [TS]

  wear something for work you know t-shirt [TS]

  and jeans maybe that's kind of the [TS]

  uniform of tech a hoodie if it's cool or [TS]

  if you live in San Francisco you know [TS]

  that's that's kind of uniform of like [TS]

  tech geeks so all of us look at this and [TS]

  said this is crazy why we let Amazon put [TS]

  a camera on her bedroom to do this thing [TS]

  we don't care about but people who were [TS]

  really into clothing and fashion really [TS]

  enjoyed this the reaction from most of [TS]

  them and this wasn't all women I I [TS]

  should say I'm trying I'm very carefully [TS]

  you know trying to dance around the the [TS]

  women angle here but I don't want to be [TS]

  sexist but it is very clear that this is [TS]

  how this is being targeted and and I did [TS]

  see very different reactions from most [TS]

  women compared to most men in my [TS]

  timeline but I really don't want to say [TS]

  anything more than that because I don't [TS]

  know I'm talking about it is not at all [TS]

  for me but I think this will probably [TS]

  succeed you know when when the original [TS]

  echo cylinder first came out we all made [TS]

  fun of it because first of all the the [TS]

  way it was presented the video it was [TS]

  presented and was awful I mean it was it [TS]

  was comical it was comically bad and it [TS]

  was pretty soon after the fire phone and [TS]

  so we were pretty sure like you know [TS]

  yeah Amazon really is nuts but their [TS]

  hardware they don't know what they're [TS]

  doing it did indeed sound crazy that [TS]

  you're going to put a microphone in your [TS]

  house that listens all the time and is [TS]

  owned by Amazon really but then it only [TS]

  takes like one friend to get it and for [TS]

  you to be at their house for a little [TS]

  while and and you know with they're [TS]

  using it to kind of see like oh actually [TS]

  that's pretty cool and so it is [TS]

  I think we're like it it does sound kind [TS]

  of ridiculous up front but it might [TS]

  succeed anyway and I think all you need [TS]

  to know to know whether it will succeed [TS]

  or not is like are there is there any [TS]

  group people right now right up front [TS]

  who are saying oh my god yes give me [TS]

  that right now and the answer from what [TS]

  I can see is yes my wife wants one I [TS]

  know a bunch of uh people on Twitter who [TS]

  said they wanted one like again it isn't [TS]

  for everyone but it is probably [TS]

  definitely for some people and so even [TS]

  though it seems creepy you know to me as [TS]

  a nerd it's going to be a thing and I [TS]

  think I I would I would not discount [TS]

  Amazon in this I would not assume [TS]

  they're crazy I will occasionally make [TS]

  funny tweets about it but but I do think [TS]

  they're probably going to sell this and [TS]

  it's probably going to become part of a [TS]

  bigger thing and it's probably going to [TS]

  have its own little weird oddities just [TS]

  like every Amazon product that always [TS]

  does but I think it'll work long-term I [TS]

  think you need to have any weird [TS]

  speculation and say like oh it will be [TS]

  for some people because like it is so [TS]

  right down the middle of things that we [TS]

  know people already like to do in [TS]

  massive numbers people like to take [TS]

  pictures of themselves the word selfie [TS]

  is known to far and wide for a very good [TS]

  reason if you look at how people use [TS]

  social media and how many times they're [TS]

  taking pictures of themselves or what [TS]

  they're wearing very often on a regular [TS]

  basis right this is merely an automation [TS]

  of that in the same way that the Amazon [TS]

  echo is an automation of all the things [TS]

  you have other ways to do like this is [TS]

  not speculative that people might want [TS]

  to take pictures of themselves with [TS]

  their outfits all right this is just you [TS]

  know so that there's so clearly a [TS]

  marketing the only question is does does [TS]

  this product automate it in a way that [TS]

  actually makes it easier to do a thing [TS]

  that we know people want to do we know [TS]

  they want to do it they do it like crazy [TS]

  now manually the hard way having [TS]

  something that's you know this again as [TS]

  the first application of a computer that [TS]

  can also see you right having something [TS]

  that can do that with the smarts that we [TS]

  have developed for cameras to find where [TS]

  the heck you are and you know take good [TS]

  pictures of you it is easier for a [TS]

  computer to do that than to you to try [TS]

  to do it yourself with a mirror holding [TS]

  out your phone or doing other sorts of [TS]

  stuff like that especially if we come it [TS]

  becomes in the same way that the [TS]

  Oh does like this becomes so easy just [TS]

  becomes part of my routine right [TS]

  the people who meticulously catalog [TS]

  their outfits each day that they're [TS]

  proud of their outfits that is a big [TS]

  effort that most people don't want to go [TS]

  through but it's like Marco said if [TS]

  Marco didn't have to think about but [TS]

  just went through his day and put on his [TS]

  watch and at some point his his you know [TS]

  some point 20 years in the future when [TS]

  you know his grandchildren are visiting [TS]

  and his super duper fancy smart home he [TS]

  just wakes up in the morning picks up [TS]

  watching wants to wear puts it on and [TS]

  then at the end of the month can view [TS]

  beautiful InFocus close-up shots of [TS]

  every watch he wore on every day how did [TS]

  those pictures happen because the [TS]

  cameras that are all over the house [TS]

  invisibly can always find him and take [TS]

  these amazing photographs in low-light [TS]

  perfect focus and he doesn't have to [TS]

  pose for them and he doesn't have to do [TS]

  anything in the same way that the magic [TS]

  checkout counter you know barcode [TS]

  scanner just bring the food by and you [TS]

  kind of twirl it and you know spin it by [TS]

  the little scanner and the little lasers [TS]

  will find it right in that same type of [TS]

  technology if you had a bunch of smart [TS]

  cameras in your house that eventually [TS]

  will be so cheap and so good that they [TS]

  will be able to do this without you [TS]

  having to stand in a certain place or do [TS]

  a certain thing that is the future that [TS]

  you know that this coming to the [TS]

  questions about it are all legit [TS]

  questions in terms of who owns this data [TS]

  is it okay for Amazon for us upload it [TS]

  to Amazon and for them to keep it [TS]

  forever and how is this funded if the [TS]

  hardware isn't profitable itself is [TS]

  entirely funded about as a way to sell [TS]

  us you know clothes or whatever and one [TS]

  of the security implications and how [TS]

  hackable these all these are going to be [TS]

  there's going to be terrible disasters [TS]

  in all these areas but there is no [TS]

  denying that the amount of computery [TS]

  things in our house will only increase [TS]

  with time and that it is kind of a [TS]

  ratcheting mechanism and that this first [TS]

  one aiming you know aiming to be a [TS]

  mechanization of a thing that we know [TS]

  people already love to do is very smart [TS]

  and builds on their their echo stuff as [TS]

  for the things I talk about in terms of [TS]

  Technology and privacy [TS]

  I think Amazon is probably terrible in [TS]

  them I think the security is probably [TS]

  crap I think their privacy probably [TS]

  policy is probably terrible I think if [TS]

  they're hacks people are going to get [TS]

  tons of data and people will regret [TS]

  getting these things if that ever [TS]

  happens if it doesn't Amazon its lucky [TS]

  if it does we all just regret it [TS]

  together as people [TS]

  giant archive of photographs and audio [TS]

  of you over many many years they use [TS]

  Amazon devices but even Marco famously [TS]

  paranoid is willing to take that trade [TS]

  because they do make his life better [TS]

  enough that he's you know that he's [TS]

  willing to take that risk and most [TS]

  people are not as paranoid as Marco and [TS]

  won't think twice about this if it [TS]

  actually delivers on what it what it is [TS]

  intending to do we are sponsored this [TS]

  week by betterment investing made better [TS]

  go to better mint.com slash ATP to learn [TS]

  more betterment is a smarter way to [TS]

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  heard that about a financial institution [TS]

  before I never have before you can log [TS]

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  more visit betterment comm slash ATP [TS]

  that's betterment comm slash ATP [TS]

  betterment investing made better okay so [TS]

  in the last what was it 24-48 hours as [TS]

  we record Microsoft has released a [TS]

  basically a surface book err they've [TS]

  taken what basically all of us wanted [TS]

  from the new MacBook Air that we have [TS]

  yet to receive and made a surface laptop [TS]

  out of it I love that you assume that [TS]

  that the that a new MacBook Air is [TS]

  something that is coming they just isn't [TS]

  here yet [TS]

  well fair fair but um but yes so be the [TS]

  thing that we all wanted which would be [TS]

  effectively be a new [TS]

  Retina MacBook Air with better internals [TS]

  and better ports and whatnot Microsoft [TS]

  seems to have just released it so I [TS]

  think they're pre-ordering soon if [TS]

  memory serves it's it's as we record I [TS]

  don't believe it's available for [TS]

  purchase but the very little bit that [TS]

  I've looked into it it looked really [TS]

  nice yeah I mean I think it's really [TS]

  interesting first of all that the [TS]

  Microsoft Surface branding was [TS]

  originally for well first it was for the [TS]

  giant table and then it went away for a [TS]

  few years and then then it came back as [TS]

  this like you know consumer you know [TS]

  convertible laptop tablet thing and then [TS]

  it slowly became like closer to regular [TS]

  computers and now there goes like all [TS]

  right screw it here's just a laptop and [TS]

  we're gonna call the surface laptop and [TS]

  like they get they start they did all [TS]

  these crazy things and they kind of [TS]

  slowly work their way back to what most [TS]

  people actually want in their computer [TS]

  which is a traditional-style laptop and [TS]

  it does have a touch screen so bonus [TS]

  points for that I do want also point out [TS]

  like we Apple people you know we keep [TS]

  following the company line of like you [TS]

  know we shouldn't have touch screens on [TS]

  computers nobody wants that but [TS]

  meanwhile touch screens have become very [TS]

  prevalent on on PCs and most people who [TS]

  use them seem to kind of like them like [TS]

  people seem you know they might not use [TS]

  them all the time or they might not use [TS]

  them for a lot of things but people who [TS]

  use them seem to enjoy them largely so [TS]

  so I do think that is something that [TS]

  should not be totally discounted as a [TS]

  thing and maybe maybe apples right but [TS]

  it should they're sure to seem like a [TS]

  lot of people are using them anyway but [TS]

  I also think it's interesting that you [TS]

  know when when the original you know [TS]

  surface not the table but like that the [TS]

  very first like weird OBE is our tablet [TS]

  laptop thing when that first came out it [TS]

  really seemed like this really like you [TS]

  know niche low volume low selling device [TS]

  but over time Microsoft has been [TS]

  persistent and it has NS just kept [TS]

  iterating and iterating and now services [TS]

  are actually pretty common like I said I [TS]

  see them out all the time and I don't [TS]

  know if I just don't recognize most [TS]

  other PC hardware so like I don't maybe [TS]

  I don't like visually like notice that [TS]

  are counted and like whenever whenever [TS]

  like people on Twitter do like coffee [TS]

  shop surveys [TS]

  I like grouper likes to do sometimes or [TS]

  like I see some other people doing it [TS]

  well [TS]

  like alright number of like you know [TS]

  MacBooks in this coffee shop at 10 a [TS]

  number of vino surfaces 3 number of [TS]

  iPads to stuff like that surfaces tend [TS]

  to be represented pretty well just like [TS]

  anecdotally out in the world [TS]

  there seem to be a lot of them in coffee [TS]

  shops and in airports and on planes and [TS]

  like on commuter trains stuff like that [TS]

  like so I do think that it is worth I [TS]

  hope Apple is noticing and they probably [TS]

  are they're smart over there I hope they [TS]

  are noticing that like these think these [TS]

  experiments that Microsoft has been [TS]

  doing with the surface over time seemed [TS]

  outlandish at first not only are they [TS]

  getting less outlandish over time as we [TS]

  all realize that some of those things [TS]

  are good ideas but also they're getting [TS]

  pretty popular and so I think I think [TS]

  that is that is something that that that [TS]

  we should not be ruling out and you know [TS]

  some things are popular they're terrible [TS]

  I mean Dave Matthews Band right but but [TS]

  it their popularity I think should not [TS]

  be overlooked [TS]

  and and we should not assume that [TS]

  everything about the surface and its [TS]

  line of products is Microsoft being [TS]

  weird and wacky because a lot of it's [TS]

  sticking so that's that is worth [TS]

  pointing out so this particular computer [TS]

  it looks pretty compelling for a lot of [TS]

  people I mean in a lot of ways it specs [TS]

  or lower end than the MacBook Air it can [TS]

  be it although it is much newer the [TS]

  MacBook Air still has I think like three [TS]

  generations old now [TS]

  parts something like that and and this I [TS]

  believe the Microsoft Surface laptop is [TS]

  KB Lake so it's like really current if [TS]

  the macbook air had skylake or KB Lake [TS]

  it would get way better battery life and [TS]

  it's already amazing which means they [TS]

  could do some pretty cool things but [TS]

  they're not but the other they they made [TS]

  the MacBook Pro instead and we'll talk [TS]

  about that in a minute like the escape [TS]

  but this laptop looks really good [TS]

  because when when the MacBook Air first [TS]

  came out it was like the specialized [TS]

  thing but over you know over a pretty [TS]

  short time it pretty quickly became like [TS]

  the mainstream a laptop to have and now [TS]

  it's the low-end laptop to have but it's [TS]

  still like they still sell a ton of them [TS]

  because the 13-inch MacBook Air [TS]

  especially like that form factor like [TS]

  that combination I've talked about [TS]

  before and they show like that's a [TS]

  really good sweet spot for a lot of [TS]

  people it's an incredibly compelling [TS]

  overall pack [TS]

  there's a reason why everyone has their [TS]

  has MacBook Airs [TS]

  and almost everyone who hasn't loves [TS]

  them it's no coincidence that when my [TS]

  cursor into do stuff that's a quite a [TS]

  mistake when Apple introduced the new [TS]

  MacBook Pros and and kind of made it [TS]

  clear that the MacBook Air was was on [TS]

  its way slowly out and that the new [TS]

  MacBook Air replacement was this this [TS]

  13-inch MacBook Escape that is more [TS]

  expensive and in some ways more limited [TS]

  a lot of people were very upset about [TS]

  that it's like it's like no you took [TS]

  this this formula that we liked so much [TS]

  and now you're telling us that it's over [TS]

  and you're replacing it with some of its [TS]

  more expensive and more limited so [TS]

  Microsoft comes along and says all right [TS]

  well you know what here this computer [TS]

  that you wanted here we just made it we [TS]

  made like a up to date basically version [TS]

  of a retina MacBook Air shape and size [TS]

  computer and in most ways it looks a lot [TS]

  like the MacBook Air it you know again [TS]

  like if you if you match respect respect [TS]

  it's it's is about the same price as the [TS]

  air and although newer and in it is a [TS]

  few hundred dollars cheaper than the [TS]

  MacBook Escape for similar specs again I [TS]

  think they're going to sell a lot of [TS]

  these now they aren't the first PC maker [TS]

  to make a MacBook Air clone that you [TS]

  know the PC makers are making these for [TS]

  a while largely I think one of the [TS]

  reasons why services have taken off so [TS]

  well is that PC hardware is largely [TS]

  total crap like it is really bad like [TS]

  the designs are crappy ly and they're [TS]

  cheap plastic builds and just designed [TS]

  with very poor taste you know and and [TS]

  Microsoft's designs have largely been [TS]

  pretty good like for the surface [TS]

  hardware like they've had a couple of [TS]

  you know weird little missteps here and [TS]

  there but you know so is Apple like no [TS]

  one's perfect so Microsoft actually I [TS]

  think doing pretty well here and if I [TS]

  were buying a Windows PC for some reason [TS]

  it would almost certainly be a surface [TS]

  product of some kind or I built my own [TS]

  life if it was a desktop probably but [TS]

  like let's say if I buy a PC laptop for [TS]

  some reason I would almost certainly get [TS]

  one of these I agree with you the thing [TS]

  is I obviously my career prior to my [TS]

  current job was all the Microsoft stack [TS]

  and so though I don't have any [TS]

  particular love for Microsoft in [TS]

  stal jaques sense i i have admired the [TS]

  way they've really changed themselves [TS]

  and and really kind of adjusted the way [TS]

  they operate with such a novella at the [TS]

  helm and I think they've been doing a [TS]

  really good job and have been have been [TS]

  doing really fascinating stuff for the [TS]

  San Franciscans they pivoted so anyway [TS]

  the funny thing is though you can't [TS]

  really make Microsoft lose all of its [TS]

  old bits because as I'm trying to get [TS]

  the URL for the surface laptop to put in [TS]

  the show notes I arrive at Microsoft [TS]

  Store comm slash store / MS USA / en-us [TS]

  PDP / product ID dot 5 109 100 then as I [TS]

  load that page the back the the page [TS]

  itself has been dimmed and I have a [TS]

  modal don't miss out sign up to receive [TS]

  special deals new offers and more no the [TS]

  answer is no so you can make Microsoft a [TS]

  lot better in general but you can't ever [TS]

  really make Microsoft forget that their [TS]

  Microsoft can you well but what's the [TS]

  actual name of the macbook escape i/o [TS]

  the MacBook Pro I believe it's the late [TS]

  2013 13 inch MacBook Pro without touch [TS]

  bar a fair point fair point fair point [TS]

  with deleteme in all caps at the end [TS]

  yeah so anyway but no I other than that [TS]

  I I think this looks really great I [TS]

  agree with you if I were to buy a PC it [TS]

  would either be a lenovo or very very [TS]

  likely a surface laptop or something [TS]

  like this I agree with you that [TS]

  everything I've heard from people who [TS]

  have touchscreen laptops they swear by [TS]

  them I think that seems really kooky but [TS]

  it's probably one of those things that I [TS]

  just haven't tried it and so I don't get [TS]

  it and certainly for iOS simulator that [TS]

  would be super helpful so in that sense [TS]

  I do get it but I do like that there are [TS]

  different colors available I don't [TS]

  recall what colors there are but there's [TS]

  certainly several shades that you can [TS]

  get them in which is really kind of [TS]

  stupid but I like it and I think that's [TS]

  kind of neat Apple look Apple sells like [TS]

  you know that the pink gold and dark [TS]

  gray 12-inch MacBook that's yeah that's [TS]

  fine like that there's nothing wrong [TS]

  with a little bit of color in your life [TS]

  tech people mean it's fine color is nice [TS]

  although here again like the marketing [TS]

  copy is is pratap purpose [TS]

  the here again the marketing copy is [TS]

  preposterous if you look at the the [TS]

  bullets undersurface laptop luxurious [TS]

  alla contra fabric-covered keyboard is [TS]

  bullet number two wait come on I mean in [TS]

  that Apple has their moment still get me [TS]

  wrong Apple is not innocent in this [TS]

  department but luxurious all account all [TS]

  contra fabric-covered keyboard really [TS]

  guys I'm glad you can't pronounce that [TS]

  word either just by reading in a car [TS]

  magazines for the past several decades [TS]

  so that was uh Kintaro i don't know you [TS]

  never have to say it out loud when it's [TS]

  in car magazines and all of a sudden [TS]

  you're faced with this word you got to [TS]

  do a disable the time al-qantara there [TS]

  we go it's like gazelle any case john [TS]

  what do you think about this so so the [TS]

  the narrative for this is like Marco [TS]

  said Oh Apple wouldn't make this laptop [TS]

  this is the retina MacBook Air that we [TS]

  have all wanted but as Marco already [TS]

  pointed out it's not like there haven't [TS]

  been a million pcs that the are similar [TS]

  they're like small thin used the MacBook [TS]

  Air class a processor but are newer and [TS]

  have a Retina screen and so on and so [TS]

  forth um for this computer specifically [TS]

  though this is not the retina MacBook [TS]

  Air that I would want assuming it ran [TS]

  Mac OS and not just because it's got a [TS]

  fuzzy top which is kind of weird and I [TS]

  think we get kind of gross this if Apple [TS]

  made this computer I would right now be [TS]

  complaining about the ports and the RAM [TS]

  four gigabytes RAM that you shouldn't [TS]

  even offer a computer with that much is [TS]

  stupid don't do that and the ports one [TS]

  big USB one mini DisplayPort thingy [TS]

  headphone like no USB see that's not a [TS]

  modern computer like I'm not saying you [TS]

  have to have all the ports in the world [TS]

  but especially if you're going to be a [TS]

  PC like provide me utility the utility [TS]

  with Apple won't add would be you know [TS]

  like it what this thing has except for [TS]

  USB see instead of playing USB maybe [TS]

  thrown one regular us because it's not [TS]

  like there's not room like this is not a [TS]

  MacBook sighs SuperDuper skinny thing [TS]

  it's big enough that you could fit some [TS]

  more ports on there and if I'm looking [TS]

  for anything into the PC is to do the [TS]

  port stuff that Apple won't do so give [TS]

  me my ports put some USB C on there put [TS]

  one regular USB put an SD card slot [TS]

  don't give me one big USB and one mini [TS]

  DisplayPort and that's it like I feel [TS]

  like it is RAM starve and [TS]

  Gort slim and form-factor wise if I'm [TS]

  going to buy into the surface brand no [TS]

  this is just like this is a service [TS]

  laptop like they do have a touchscreen [TS]

  on it but just like they do on the [TS]

  surface book and everything but those [TS]

  can sort of transform into tablet II [TS]

  things where all of a sudden the [TS]

  touchscreen is much more viable not [TS]

  saying you don't want to have a [TS]

  touchscreen because they should they [TS]

  should leverage the advantage they have [TS]

  which is they have created an OS that is [TS]

  touch accessible right that's the whole [TS]

  thing that they've done it's one [TS]

  combined OS that it is usable with your [TS]

  finger you're not you know in theory the [TS]

  interface that is on the screen has some [TS]

  chance of being used by your big you [TS]

  know 44-point in apple parlance [TS]

  fingertip surface right and that's what [TS]

  they're telling people to make make an [TS]

  application that is usable in that way [TS]

  we'll make controls and buttons and [TS]

  widgets and things that are usable in [TS]

  that way Mac OS is not like that so one [TS]

  of the advantages that that Microsoft [TS]

  has when it comes to directly competing [TS]

  against the Mac not iOS but the Mac is [TS]

  that they have an interface that is [TS]

  available for touch but touch on a plain [TS]

  old upright laptop screen like this [TS]

  you're right the PCs have been doing it [TS]

  forever and you're right that people do [TS]

  like it because they can touch the [TS]

  screen but I think Apple is also right [TS]

  that did it is a it is not a great [TS]

  experience so I don't say there's a [TS]

  reason they shouldn't have put touch in [TS]

  here but I wouldn't chalk it up as much [TS]

  of an advantage it's more of a well we [TS]

  can do it anyway and we got to do it but [TS]

  it makes me wish almost that this was a [TS]

  straight-up laptop but the hinge went [TS]

  all the way around and you could just [TS]

  bend it back on itself right you know [TS]

  the convertibles that they made a [TS]

  million different varieties of if it's [TS]

  not gonna I can get on board with them [TS]

  not disconnecting it but if it's going [TS]

  to be a touchscreen what if there is [TS]

  some application that I really want to [TS]

  use a touchscreen with it is extremely [TS]

  awkward to use a very touch-centric [TS]

  interface when you're when it's in a [TS]

  laptop configuration so I put that down [TS]

  mostly as a neutral and then so that I'm [TS]

  just like a left with a laptop that is [TS]

  kind of middle-of-the-road kind of [TS]

  strange not a good complement of ports [TS]

  in the low-end model has terrible specs [TS]

  so I'm not impressed with it as a laptop [TS]

  but I but I do agree that Microsoft has [TS]

  been been trying everything that you can [TS]

  safely try and that they are putting in [TS]

  the work to make an operating system [TS]

  that embodies their vision [TS]

  how computing how a single operating [TS]

  system can span multiple form factors [TS]

  and all that other good stuff styling [TS]

  wise the FIR aside or the fuzzy fabric [TS]

  aside I still think Microsoft Surface [TS]

  and pcs in general are sticking too [TS]

  closely to the Apple [TS]

  design formula like they have their own [TS]

  twist they have their own colors you [TS]

  know fabric and the weird hinge no stuff [TS]

  like that but Apple has so dominated the [TS]

  aesthetic for laptops basically from the [TS]

  PowerBook days when they defined the [TS]

  current shape of laptop keyboard goes [TS]

  their pointing device goes here screen [TS]

  goes there it took a while for PC to get [TS]

  onboard with that but that defined it in [TS]

  the same way that the iPhone defined the [TS]

  smartphone form factor and when Apple [TS]

  came out with the modern MacBook lines [TS]

  with the big flat square key caps and [TS]

  this little perfect rectangle the Johnny [TS]

  I've loves in the big touchpad and like [TS]

  all the quote-unquote high-end PC [TS]

  laptops have been following along with [TS]

  that aesthetic as if it is the one and [TS]

  only true way to make laptops and I [TS]

  don't think it is there are there are [TS]

  there is variety out there and a lot of [TS]

  that variety is ugly if you like glad [TS]

  Microsoft is sticking with of the Apple [TS]

  design school because it looks good and [TS]

  it does but it also doesn't allow them [TS]

  to stand out very often speaking of [TS]

  coffee shop surveys I'm in a coffee shop [TS]

  and I have to squint to make sure I can [TS]

  make out from the front is that a [TS]

  MacBook Air or is it you know it's [TS]

  easier from the back because you can see [TS]

  the little Windows logo which is you [TS]

  know better than the old windows logo [TS]

  but whatever anyway [TS]

  Apple says that you have to have your [TS]

  company logo dead center in the back of [TS]

  your screen so that's what they do but [TS]

  from the front it's like it you could [TS]

  mistake it for a MacBook Air and I think [TS]

  that is leaving money on the table style [TS]

  wise that I believe there can be a [TS]

  different aesthetic that they could be [TS]

  pursuing instead of what they're [TS]

  currently doing which is like Apple [TS]

  style but with a twist [TS]

  so I'm not particularly impressed by [TS]

  this product I was much more impressed [TS]

  by the surface studio Pro and I but all [TS]

  these products all Microsoft hardware [TS]

  products and even you know to some [TS]

  degree the software products reveal real [TS]

  gaps in Apple's lineup I'm not going to [TS]

  say that necessarily weaknesses but they [TS]

  reveal gaps like their operating system [TS]

  reveals the fact that there you know the [TS]

  things fall through the gaps between iOS [TS]

  and [TS]

  whether one OS to us is the right [TS]

  strategy either way it shows gaps and [TS]

  all these variety of surface books and [TS]

  service to do reveal gaps in Apple's [TS]

  lineup in it like if you want a really [TS]

  big touchscreen that runs Pro Apps the [TS]

  biggest you can go on Apple is 12.5 inch [TS]

  of un if you want to know s that's touch [TS]

  accessible that's iOS you know and like [TS]

  there's this big gap between pro [TS]

  hardware that in theory is coming to the [TS]

  max soon and and touch OS and Apple has [TS]

  separated those two from each other [TS]

  whereas Microsoft has a combined OS and [TS]

  a combined hardware strategy so I find [TS]

  that the most interesting thing about [TS]

  the surface efforts and I suppose it's [TS]

  interesting that they're extending the [TS]

  brain to a plain old laptop but this [TS]

  plain old laptop isn't it does not seem [TS]

  to be a particularly compelling product [TS]

  beyond the fact that it is a surface [TS]

  branded laptop but I I applaud Microsoft [TS]

  for taking the surface hardware and [TS]

  software brand [TS]

  and extending it outwards and hopefully [TS]

  they have some success we haven't even [TS]

  talked about Windows 10 s I don't know [TS]

  if we have time for it but that is a [TS]

  whole other aspect of this we'll get to [TS]

  the head but also and I think this ties [TS]

  into that to keep in mind like as you [TS]

  criticize this laptops you know [TS]

  mediocrity in certain areas [TS]

  it's a low-end product like it this is [TS]

  this is a value product you know in the [TS]

  world of pcs it's probably mid to low [TS]

  end Mac it's a high end PC a low end PC [TS]

  laptop is 180 bucks yeah that's true it [TS]

  is it's a mid-range piece of that but [TS]

  but it's you know because and you know [TS]

  use of those kind of mid-range parts and [TS]

  everything it's it's pretty small case [TS]

  and everything's anyway this is a value [TS]

  product and it's competing against [TS]

  Apple's value products and it is [TS]

  interesting to see like the two very [TS]

  different ways that Microsoft and Apple [TS]

  are tackling this problem you know Apple [TS]

  is largely addressing the very old an [TS]

  updated MacBook Air towards the same [TS]

  market I mean some of the people we push [TS]

  up into a new method Pro but but I think [TS]

  a lot of people liking this is aimed at [TS]

  things like schools bait you know [TS]

  businesses college students like people [TS]

  who need either a lot of computers at [TS]

  blows profit price like a school or like [TS]

  people who like people who are buying a [TS]

  computer need a lot of value and can't [TS]

  spend a lot more so things like how [TS]

  people like college students things of [TS]

  that and you know the MacBook Air is [TS]

  owned very buff these people but you [TS]

  know Apple is basically just telling [TS]

  them to just keep buying really old [TS]

  hardware [TS]

  and Microsoft is showing them a new [TS]

  option and I don't think Apple really [TS]

  has a direct answer to this they mean I [TS]

  guess technically Apple's answer is [TS]

  spend more for one of our new computers [TS]

  or tolerate one of our old ones but I [TS]

  really I think the MacBook Air is is [TS]

  kind of an embarrassment right now [TS]

  because it's not like this is some like [TS]

  you know you know narrow little product [TS]

  that they don't sell many of they sell [TS]

  tons of them and so it makes me kind of [TS]

  sad for Apple that they are happy to [TS]

  sell so many of an ancient product that [TS]

  they have refused to update out of what [TS]

  seems like a combination of laziness and [TS]

  greed because they're making good money [TS]

  on it so why update it that's that's a [TS]

  crappy reason you know but that seems to [TS]

  be the reason they're using and the new [TS]

  MacBook Pro will eventually I assume [TS]

  we'll eventually get lower in price and [TS]

  eventually will and eventually the [TS]

  12-inch and the the escape line will [TS]

  replace the MacBook Air but it doesn't [TS]

  seem like that's happening soon it [TS]

  seemed like that might be like still [TS]

  like maybe maybe three years out or [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  so for this time are they just gonna [TS]

  keep selling this ancient MacBook Air [TS]

  while things like this are coming out [TS]

  from the PC industry and and kind of [TS]

  embarrassing it like that I don't I [TS]

  don't think I like that strategy don't [TS]

  we have like five years before they have [TS]

  a special meeting to talk about the [TS]

  MacBook Air campuses they invite us like [TS]

  you know saying we know we haven't [TS]

  updated the MacBook Air in four years [TS]

  and people wonder if we're going to [TS]

  discontinue it but we've just decided [TS]

  last week that we're going to make a new [TS]

  MacBook Air and I won't be out this year [TS]

  but we are going to rethink the MacBook [TS]

  we've heard you that you want the [TS]

  MacBook Air like yeah right yeah it's [TS]

  the specific Microsoft Surface thing [TS]

  like PC laptops have been embarrassing [TS]

  the air for a long time it's not just [TS]

  this one like oh they finally made it [TS]

  like like I said like there's been tons [TS]

  of pcs that use the Mac by our class of [TS]

  chip but they actually stay updated of [TS]

  varying degrees of build quality and [TS]

  style so maybe the Microsoft one is [TS]

  notable in that they have a good [TS]

  reputation for Hardware build quality [TS]

  and if you like the style like that's [TS]

  fine but yeah I mean it's that's it's [TS]

  revealing gaps in Apple's lineup like [TS]

  that that Apple wanted the Mac the [TS]

  combination of the new Mac [TS]

  book and the new MacBook Pros to span [TS]

  the same rage that the old combination [TS]

  of the errors plus the pros plus the [TS]

  weird MacBook II thing in the middle [TS]

  span and it does kind of span the same [TS]

  range of gaps in different places but [TS]

  because of the way they're priced and [TS]

  the way their capabilities spread it [TS]

  ends up being less satisfying and and [TS]

  the air still is very pop I don't know [TS]

  if I mentioned this about my UK trip but [TS]

  I did it I did a because I was actually [TS]

  in a Starbucks I think the first time in [TS]

  my entire life big because my wife went [TS]

  in there to get a drink and I came in [TS]

  with her um and I did a laptop count [TS]

  just because I was you know I glanced [TS]

  around and I was stunned at what I saw [TS]

  what I saw was like I think it was like [TS]

  eight MacBook Airs [TS]

  one HP laptop and one MacBook Pro yeah I [TS]

  was like MacBook Airs like what's going [TS]

  on talk to some people in the UK and [TS]

  they said Oh schools buy them a lot like [TS]

  when you go to school you get a lot of [TS]

  stuff and they all buy MacBook Airs [TS]

  so like are these people going to mean [TS]

  are these all old MacBook Airs they got [TS]

  as hand-me-downs are people going to [TS]

  Apple stores and continuing to buy [TS]

  MacBook Airs yes they are but yeah I [TS]

  mean I don't know I mean if you look at [TS]

  the ASP s of the I was thinking this [TS]

  when you say oh the MacBook Pro prices [TS]

  will come down like Nautilus ASP stay up [TS]

  because the new MacBook Pros that are [TS]

  all super you know more expensive than [TS]

  their old models tremendously increased [TS]

  revenues and average selling price for [TS]

  Apple so because I get pent-up demand [TS]

  right or whatever but I'm not so sure [TS]

  that they're going to be in a big darn [TS]

  hurry to lower the price and honestly [TS]

  I'm okay with Apple jacking up the price [TS]

  on its top end models as long as the top [TS]

  end models like justify that price not [TS]

  linearly obviously where it's like is [TS]

  this $500 better no of course it's not [TS]

  gonna be calling dollars better but if [TS]

  anything you're going to fleece people [TS]

  on make it the super duper high end ones [TS]

  if they actually introduced a MacBook [TS]

  Air replacement sort of a worthy MacBook [TS]

  Air replacement that fills that same [TS]

  role like has the same trade-offs of [TS]

  battery life screen size and ports and [TS]

  capability as the old MacBook Air but [TS]

  has all updated internals and is retina [TS]

  if they ever made such a machine I mean [TS]

  that can lower their ISPs but I think it [TS]

  would sell like hotcakes and honestly I [TS]

  feel like I don't made the joke about [TS]

  the whole Mac Mac Pro meeting like oh [TS]

  we've decided we're going to do this I [TS]

  feel like that decision [TS]

  is inevitable because it seems like the [TS]

  range of capabilities in Apple's limited [TS]

  range from the SuperDuper skinny MacBook [TS]

  to the much more expensive pros that [TS]

  doesn't seem to be the right [TS]

  distribution of price points and [TS]

  capabilities to satisfy the market right [TS]

  whereas the air has proven itself to be [TS]

  a you know and not the first air because [TS]

  the first there was a crappy mix right [TS]

  but like the 2011 and on air like that [TS]

  was a really great sweet spot for our [TS]

  capability size and price uh and I think [TS]

  Apple has proven with their experiment [TS]

  that the SuperDuper skinny one like it's [TS]

  a little bit too far down the capability [TS]

  ladder like it's sacrifice too much [TS]

  capability for other stuff they just by [TS]

  all means keep it because you should [TS]

  have a model it's like the lightest [TS]

  possible thing perhaps awesome for that [TS]

  right but it doesn't it you know [TS]

  whatever the curve looks like of demand [TS]

  for laptop sizes and capabilities that [TS]

  one is also towards the edge so I think [TS]

  Apple will eventually coming around come [TS]

  around to making a machine that has this [TS]

  the balance of the MacBook Air does have [TS]

  to be the same exact size and shape as [TS]

  the MacBook Air because things change [TS]

  and USBC is smaller and so on and so [TS]

  forth and whether that's because the the [TS]

  MacBook evolved or they introduced a new [TS]

  model in the middle or the 13-inch [TS]

  MacBook Pro as marcos talked about so [TS]

  many times eventually shrinks down to [TS]

  the point where it basically is a [TS]

  MacBook Air but that hasn't happened yet [TS]

  and so looking over at the PC side of [TS]

  the windows side of things and seeing [TS]

  all these MacBook Air equivalents seeing [TS]

  how popular you know again coffee coffee [TS]

  shop surveys a lot of the pcs that I see [TS]

  are macbook air resize form factor that [TS]

  i see less of the giant battleships that [TS]

  you still see in corporate environments [TS]

  and i see more of the you know HP Lenovo [TS]

  MacBook Air II sized machines [TS]

  so hopefully Apple will get on that in [TS]

  you know t-minus two and a half years [TS]

  yeah cuz that's the thing like it that's [TS]

  what I'm seeing like the strategy what [TS]

  they're doing but they seem to be doing [TS]

  now which is basically like just never [TS]

  update the air and just keep selling it [TS]

  until the other ones come down in price [TS]

  I don't think that necessarily works [TS]

  unless there's other changes in mind [TS]

  because like what you said like the the [TS]

  12-inch [TS]

  assume that comes down in price and [TS]

  becomes a new entry that's kind of not [TS]

  good enough to replace the MacBook Air [TS]

  like it is it is so much of a compromise [TS]

  and so many more air [TS]

  as it you know it has way fewer ports [TS]

  and things it is way slower than MacBook [TS]

  Air in a lot of things it is it gets [TS]

  worse battery life by a good amount and [TS]

  and though you know it will presume to [TS]

  improve over time like maybe maybe the [TS]

  second generation 12-inch MacBook [TS]

  whenever that comes out maybe that one [TS]

  will be a better air replacement but the [TS]

  current one really isn't I mean maybe [TS]

  the answer is that the 13-inch MacBook [TS]

  Escape ends up going down in price [TS]

  eventually or it has a very low in [TS]

  configuration but the problem is like [TS]

  the the base model is already a pretty a [TS]

  pretty low-end model for Apple standards [TS]

  for you know for the connected service [TS]

  book it's kind of mid-range to high-end [TS]

  but so so again like I'm I'm not [TS]

  entirely sure that strategy makes sense [TS]

  but it seems like Apple is doing a [TS]

  pretty poor job addressing what is [TS]

  probably by far their most popular model [TS]

  of laptop like that seems weird to me [TS]

  although that that being said looking at [TS]

  the surface laptop if you had if you [TS]

  were buying one of these things which of [TS]

  these four colors would you guys I saw [TS]

  the video the colors looked okay in the [TS]

  video now I'm seeing this page like all [TS]

  four of these colors look hideous to me [TS]

  they all look like cubicle walls as the [TS]

  texture is the problem not the color I [TS]

  think either one of the the two gray is [TS]

  the darker grey is a lighter gray [TS]

  they're fine but I'm I'm not on board [TS]

  with with the texture thing both because [TS]

  I think it'll get dirty and gross and [TS]

  it'll be harder to clean and also [TS]

  because the edge treatment like when the [TS]

  fabric runs to the edge and you know [TS]

  joins up with the metal that's just [TS]

  asking for it to fray the last thing I [TS]

  want is a frayed laptop that's not an [TS]

  aesthetic I like I can imagine people [TS]

  finding attractive right but I'm not I'm [TS]

  not into that word I I don't know I it's [TS]

  hard to say I on the configurator the [TS]

  the colors are in the image is just [TS]

  microscopic and it's very hard to say I [TS]

  would probably take a look at the cobalt [TS]

  blue but it all likelihood end up with [TS]

  the boring platinum [TS]

  yeah the cause of the cause I read and [TS]

  you're right that their website like the [TS]

  you know you just made fun of their [TS]

  website for a while before but like [TS]

  if you have beautiful hardware like they [TS]

  made the really cool intro video [TS]

  I think Gruber linked to and I hope all [TS]

  the people that it shows like I'll you [TS]

  know it looked like an Apple video [TS]

  showing how beautiful all the parts are [TS]

  even on the inside and how they all [TS]

  assemble and fly together we've seen [TS]

  stuff from like Apple like but then if [TS]

  you go to their website Apple the entire [TS]

  page would you just be like incredibly [TS]

  close-up high-resolution beautifully [TS]

  shot photographs slash renders of their [TS]

  hardware right whereas here we're [TS]

  squinting at these little blurry JPEGs [TS]

  we can't even you know I was trying to [TS]

  look for a picture to show me all the [TS]

  ports Apple would have a shot that's [TS]

  like the ports fill your entire screen [TS]

  and they're impossibly clean because [TS]

  they're probably computer renders and [TS]

  here it's like I can't even get a shot [TS]

  where I can make out what the ports are [TS]

  on the side the color picker changes the [TS]

  color on this one inch by one inch [TS]

  postage stamp is off you are not you're [TS]

  not selling your hardware you got look [TS]

  good looking hardware you have to show [TS]

  it off we want to see it want to see it [TS]

  up close alas that's Microsoft's I will [TS]

  say also the MacBook escape the the late [TS]

  2016 13 inch MacBook Pro without touch [TS]

  bar two ports that it continues to [TS]

  impress me as a machine like and and you [TS]

  know when at when Phil Schiller onstage [TS]

  and talked about it during the [TS]

  introduction he did say something on the [TS]

  lines of like this is kind of the new [TS]

  MacBook Air and even though it starts at [TS]

  $1500 and has few reports and things I [TS]

  think that is largely correct I hope in [TS]

  in the whatever the next version of the [TS]

  MacBook Escape is you know presumably [TS]

  meant you know maybe this fall or next [TS]

  spring whenever new MacBook Pros come [TS]

  out I hope they make a few changes that [TS]

  will make that more correct that will [TS]

  make this more of a MacBook Air [TS]

  replacement I think for me like having [TS]

  used this thing now I I missed the SD [TS]

  card slot I I will not accept any [TS]

  argument that that's the past because it [TS]

  simply is not true you can argue with me [TS]

  all you want about legacy ports but the [TS]

  SD card is not a legacy port it is [TS]

  something else and it is still necessary [TS]

  for lots of people oh I could not [TS]

  disagree with you more cool so I would [TS]

  say bring back bring back the SD card [TS]

  reader and I would also really like one [TS]

  more USB port I don't [TS]

  whether it's C or a most of the [TS]

  computers like in this class before [TS]

  you've been able to have them plugged in [TS]

  and you'll be able to plug in two [TS]

  devices to them and you can't do that [TS]

  with this without using hubs and stuff [TS]

  and every USB C hub that's out there in [TS]

  the world right now is a total piece of [TS]

  garbage and the MacBook one has been out [TS]

  for what two years now something like [TS]

  that and they're still all garbage you [TS]

  know like this is similar it's a similar [TS]

  problem of a lot of like hubs and things [TS]

  like hubs that you know eventually I [TS]

  mean it took me something like three [TS]

  years to find a decent USB 3 hub that [TS]

  didn't disconnect constantly and cause [TS]

  problems like every USB C hub out there [TS]

  is a total piece of garbage and the fact [TS]

  is what if I don't want to buy a USB C [TS]

  hub what or what if I what if I don't [TS]

  want to buy apples like $75 thing or [TS]

  whatever it is like the like that's just [TS]

  more additional cost for people who are [TS]

  buying this thing to do something fairly [TS]

  basic I really would love one additional [TS]

  USB port and an SD card reader and if [TS]

  that if that happens to come with them [TS]

  also maybe dropping the price by a [TS]

  couple hundred bucks on the entry on the [TS]

  entry point so that it makes it more map [TS]

  lakea range I think that would help a [TS]

  lot and then make it a little bit [TS]

  thinner and you've got to write in my [TS]

  book Eric no it does need to be thinner [TS]

  it's already thinner than the MacBook [TS]

  Air like it is it is it like physically [TS]

  in so many ways it's great like it [TS]

  really is really nice it's not that it's [TS]

  not thinner than macbook air and all [TS]

  dimensions like it doesn't do the taper [TS]

  which again I said is a great idea for [TS]

  not doing the taper because you can get [TS]

  tons more battery life but it doesn't [TS]

  change the fact of how how it feels in [TS]

  your hands and how it fits into your [TS]

  like backpack or whatever like the taper [TS]

  was there for a reason for like a [TS]

  perception reason and that perception is [TS]

  a real thing no I'm telling you I [TS]

  disagree very strongly on the physical [TS]

  side to me physically this is a MacBook [TS]

  Air like it this is it is exactly the [TS]

  right size and and feels exactly the [TS]

  right in the hand you may feel like it's [TS]

  the right size but it feels chunkier [TS]

  than the air I I disagree I can just go [TS]

  get an air and just like it just does [TS]

  because it doesn't have the thin end [TS]

  that's that's the perception angle that [TS]

  I'm talking about like I'm not saying [TS]

  the thin end is the right choice because [TS]

  I think the right choice is for right [TS]

  now for it to be thicker but you're [TS]

  saying like in the future eventually [TS]

  like I said the question is does the [TS]

  fanless macbook expand its capabilities [TS]

  to fill in the the role of the air or do [TS]

  the 13-inch MacBook Pro slimmed down [TS]

  essentially to become to come to the map [TS]

  okay and lower its price to come to the [TS]

  MacBook Air from above and I agree that [TS]

  it's probably more likely that [TS]

  eventually the 13-inch MacBook Pro if [TS]

  not in price in all other ways will fill [TS]

  that same role but I I disagree that [TS]

  right now that fit form factor wise did [TS]

  it feel the same as it just doesn't we [TS]

  have them at work and pick them up and [TS]

  it's just not it's just not like that [TS]

  actually we don't have them alert the [TS]

  important people who have their own [TS]

  machines that work out that work sorry [TS]

  so excited like the work if that you [TS]

  know this is my personal machine do we [TS]

  want to we are running long but we want [TS]

  to talk about the Windows 10s or [TS]

  whatever it's called I mean we can I [TS]

  think this is a quick one so Windows 10s [TS]

  is the cut down in terms of pricing [TS]

  version of Windows that you can get with [TS]

  these laptops that wants you to get all [TS]

  the applications from Microsoft's [TS]

  version of the app store and you know [TS]

  it's a model we're all familiar with [TS]

  Microsoft has been pushing real hard on [TS]

  the App Store model thus far they have [TS]

  not been as successful as Apple but in [TS]

  theory brings all the same benefits of a [TS]

  controlled selection of software that's [TS]

  approved by Microsoft that conforms to [TS]

  presumably better conforms to the ideals [TS]

  that Microsoft wants it to conform to [TS]

  and that Microsoft gets you know you [TS]

  know the control of how the money flows [TS]

  and yadda yadda yadda the interesting [TS]

  thing about Microsoft 10s is that if you [TS]

  want to get applications from someplace [TS]

  other than the Microsoft App Store I [TS]

  don't know what they call it keeps the [TS]

  App Store you can pay them in additional [TS]

  50 bucks [TS]

  and now you can load programs from [TS]

  anywhere which is probably making a long [TS]

  time PC windows people freak out because [TS]

  this is hell like a lockdown PC that I [TS]

  have to pay money to put stuff on that's [TS]

  terrible don't worry guys you'll be able [TS]

  to hack it all that stuff is cracked [TS]

  anyway it's an interesting business [TS]

  model trying to have your cake and eat [TS]

  it to where it's like well we want to [TS]

  give people the capability of using it [TS]

  as a regular PC but we actually want to [TS]

  discourage that so we can discourage it [TS]

  and by the way we can make our cheap [TS]

  models cheaper by you know presumably [TS]

  Microsoft is reducing whatever its [TS]

  license fee is by saying if you if you [TS]

  use Windows 10s you to have new PC [TS]

  manufacturer won't have to pay us quite [TS]

  as [TS]

  much for the windows license because we [TS]

  hope we're going to make some more by [TS]

  selling apps through our store but as [TS]

  Gruber pointed out this is kind of a [TS]

  weird pitch for people that like you [TS]

  have to pay money to are you paying [TS]

  money to make your thing better or are [TS]

  you're paying or is it just there as a [TS]

  deterrent to try to encourage people to [TS]

  use the app star and the Microsoft star [TS]

  is pretty grim and like doesn't have the [TS]

  apps that you want in it so does [TS]

  everybody just have to pay that fee I [TS]

  don't know like many things they do in [TS]

  the Microsoft in modern Microsoft [TS]

  service world it's like I don't know [TS]

  let's try this and you know they don't [TS]

  have too much to lose it's not like [TS]

  they're the Microsoft app star is is [TS]

  setting the world ablaze so if this is [TS]

  what takes to encourage more people to [TS]

  get into the Microsoft app store to say [TS]

  you know if they sell a lot of these and [TS]

  they can say hey look at all these [TS]

  customers the only place they can buy [TS]

  stores is through the Microsoft Store [TS]

  that's why you software developers [TS]

  should put your stuff in the Microsoft [TS]

  Store but you know good luck getting the [TS]

  big names in there the same reason Apple [TS]

  couldn't get them in Microsoft's gonna [TS]

  have trouble I'm getting with the store [TS]

  and then it just ends up being as a [TS]

  weird free version of Windows that you [TS]

  can pay $50 to unlock and presumably to [TS]

  remove all the weird ads that are [TS]

  apparently windows these days yeah this [TS]

  this whole thing is kind of a weird [TS]

  segmentation thing I mean it is [TS]

  obviously like this effort to create [TS]

  like a low-end Windows but like Windows [TS]

  RT was you know kind of a more severe [TS]

  version of that and that didn't do so [TS]

  well I don't I really don't see [TS]

  Microsoft customers being a big fan of [TS]

  this it doesn't seem like the thing that [TS]

  that deserves a 50 dollar charge it [TS]

  seems to me to be like the gatekeeper [TS]

  switch in Oster Mac Mac OS where you [TS]

  just kind of say yes I understand the [TS]

  risks I'm good with it just let me let [TS]

  me side load whatever I want yeah that [TS]

  was a group is analogy to and it's like [TS]

  it doesn't feel good [TS]

  - it feels like a ransom it's like [TS]

  unlock the full capability to proceed [TS]

  but that's just from our perspective [TS]

  because we're like oh we just expect to [TS]

  be able to load any software we want on [TS]

  our PCs and of course from our [TS]

  perspective and the the walled garden of [TS]

  apples like we would gladly pay 50 bucks [TS]

  to be able to sideload arbitrary [TS]

  applications onto our iPhones or at [TS]

  least that was I think ever all the [TS]

  geeks would have agreed on that many [TS]

  years ago these days people make less of [TS]

  a fuss about that but I think it still [TS]

  exists for all sorts of applications [TS]

  that Apple doesn't allow on the App [TS]

  Store [TS]

  potentially be useful so on and so forth [TS]

  but trying to bring that to the windows [TS]

  world I don't know what kind of demand [TS]

  is there for that and I'm not sure how [TS]

  much power Microsoft has even with its [TS]

  own within its own ecosystem to make [TS]

  that happen [TS]

  Apple obviously took the easy way out [TS]

  and said we're introducing a new [TS]

  platform this how it is from day one [TS]

  right so then it's like it is what it is [TS]

  and guess what that platform was wildly [TS]

  successful so they made it happen but [TS]

  trying to retro actively apply that to a [TS]

  platform that is previously opened Apple [TS]

  and it's on its own little private world [TS]

  of the Mac has had much difficulty doing [TS]

  that you know with Mac App Store in [TS]

  sandboxing and major applications that [TS]

  we they're nether in the store Mac App [TS]

  Store are left the the Mac App Store and [TS]

  I think Microsoft's can have an even [TS]

  harder time fit but I think mainly the [TS]

  main innovation here seems to me as a [TS]

  way that Microsoft can allow even [TS]

  cheaper windows-based computers while [TS]

  still hopefully not losing that much [TS]

  money on them like giving Windows [TS]

  licenses you know lowering the price of [TS]

  Windows licenses so for computers that [TS]

  are incredibly cheap and hoping they're [TS]

  going to make it up with the App Store [TS]

  purchase I don't think the math will [TS]

  work out for them but it's interesting [TS]

  strategy and from users perspective I [TS]

  think Windows users are just used to buy [TS]

  now the business model of Windows and [TS]

  how many different versions there aren't [TS]

  how much they cost them what you really [TS]

  have to pay and what they're capable of [TS]

  doing being a confusing mess and so you [TS]

  know this is par for the course thanks [TS]

  much for our sponsors this week Kasper [TS]

  betterment and endo Chino and we will [TS]

  see you next week now the show is over [TS]

  they didn't even mean to be [TS]

  as it was accidental oh it was [TS]

  accidental John didn't do any research [TS]

  Marco and Casey wouldn't let him cuz it [TS]

  was accidental it was accidental and you [TS]

  can find the show notes at ATP dot F M [TS]

  and if you're into Twitter you can [TS]

  follow them at CAS II WA L is s so [TS]

  that's Casey Liz and a are Co AR m [TS]

  auntie Marco Arment si R Casey [TS]

  USA Syracuse [TS]

  I have some thoughts about the switch oh [TS]

  it's okay it'll be fairly quick this [TS]

  week or oh really last week Mario Kart 8 [TS]

  deluxe came out this is the first Mario [TS]

  Kart that I have played since Mario Kart [TS]

  for the Wii and uh it came out on Friday [TS]

  I got my copy on Friday on Monday I had [TS]

  already arranged with a few co-workers [TS]

  at work who also have switches we were [TS]

  all going to bring our consoles in and [TS]

  our copies of Mario Kart in play over [TS]

  lunch and so there were six of us [TS]

  gathered around kind of a bar if you [TS]

  will at work playing local multiplayer [TS]

  against each other and with each other [TS]

  on Mario Kart 8 and it was unbelievably [TS]

  fun and cool and a miracle that HR [TS]

  didn't come down and yell at us for the [TS]

  language that we were all using as we [TS]

  were saw as we were hollering at each [TS]

  other - you know effectively go die in a [TS]

  fire but with much more colorful words [TS]

  than that it was unbelievably fun just [TS]

  like Apple it well felt like Apple used [TS]

  to be anyway it just worked and it was [TS]

  great and and I had just an unbelievable [TS]

  an unbelievable amount of fun in a way [TS]

  that I haven't since I did like land [TS]

  parties when I was in high school or [TS]

  college or no modem cable parties when I [TS]

  was a grade schooler and this is a [TS]

  constant this is the first console that [TS]

  I am aware of where that sort of thing [TS]

  can happen in person really really [TS]

  easily and without six associated TVs as [TS]

  well I just thought it was extremely [TS]

  cool yes well actually yes I'm aware [TS]

  that the original Gameboy had like four [TS]

  player games and things like that I but [TS]

  you know what I mean where six people [TS]

  show up with no cables whatsoever and [TS]

  just start playing a game together it [TS]

  was awesome and tremendously fun and if [TS]

  you happen to know a couple of people or [TS]

  even better a handful of people who all [TS]

  have all have switches and all have [TS]

  Mario Kart or maybe an equivalent game I [TS]

  cannot recommend it enough [TS]

  is so much fun have you done any of this [TS]

  yet John I look for you online America [TS]

  this weekend but you weren't around yeah [TS]

  up and I mean I'm like I've played all [TS]

  these tracks and done all these things [TS]

  already but I played it to just see that [TS]

  the new frame rate and the high-res [TS]

  graphics and the new features of the [TS]

  game what game was it again marikar date [TS]

  Oh what was it again you're trying to [TS]

  get me say Mary over and over again so [TS]

  you can sound bored me and still marikar [TS]

  date deluxe America a deluxe indeed [TS]

  oh yeah and to try out the new the few [TS]

  new features they added with the double [TS]

  item boxes in the pink sparks and the [TS]

  dreaded auto steer thing which you must [TS]

  disable because it's terrible well it's [TS]

  terrible for me it is good for the [TS]

  people who it's intended for I would [TS]

  have loved to have the speaking of the [TS]

  auto drive thing it's not Auto Drive [TS]

  it's preventing you from going off the [TS]

  edge of the of the map and I used to try [TS]

  to play Mario Kart with my kids probably [TS]

  before they were quite old enough to be [TS]

  able to do it and it was very [TS]

  frustrating for them because they you [TS]

  know they couldn't stay on the course [TS]

  right I think they would have had more [TS]

  fun with this version which has Auto [TS]

  accelerate so you don't have to hold on [TS]

  a and also they can drive all over the [TS]

  course however they want they just can't [TS]

  go off the edge it'll just as if there [TS]

  are guardrails on the entire track and [TS]

  that would really help them you know be [TS]

  guided along but if you are an [TS]

  experienced merit car player you don't [TS]

  want this feature on because if you [TS]

  barely get close to or touch the edge [TS]

  and you weren't going to go off the edge [TS]

  but you just happen to touch it it slows [TS]

  you down tremendously it's like you know [TS]

  it's like sandpaper so I would encourage [TS]

  everyone to turn this feature off if [TS]

  you're going for good lap times or [TS]

  trying to compete in 200cc or whatever [TS]

  you can't turn it off from the main [TS]

  interface you have to actually start the [TS]

  race and then once the race is started [TS]

  go to the options screen then you can [TS]

  turn it off and I'm pretty sure that [TS]

  setting persists between launches the [TS]

  game once you have turned it off now the [TS]

  thing though with this is that it's very [TS]

  different than playing online against [TS]

  each other because we go when you're [TS]

  playing online against each other you [TS]

  can't unless you have like a phone line [TS]

  open you can't really yell and scream at [TS]

  each other like you can when you're [TS]

  face-to-face and you can't see you know [TS]

  the people who are steering their [TS]

  switches even though they're not using [TS]

  tilt controls their steering their [TS]

  switches like steering wheels because [TS]

  they can't help themselves you [TS]

  you can't see that just don't just [TS]

  delightfully taste just delicious [TS]

  frustration when you nail the person [TS]

  first place with a blue shell you can't [TS]

  see all that online and and so although [TS]

  the online play is also very good and [TS]

  also generally just works it is just [TS]

  magnificent to have a big group all in [TS]

  person so if we do a podcast or family [TS]

  New Year's again this year I print will [TS]

  pretty much demand everyone bring their [TS]

  switches in Mario Kart because it is [TS]

  extremely fun also I noticed buried deep [TS]

  within Nintendo's Mario Kart site and I [TS]

  will not put a link in the show notes [TS]

  because I will forget I'm too lazy to [TS]

  find it you can actually play 12 player [TS]

  local Mario Kart over Ethernet only [TS]

  which I didn't even realize was the [TS]

  thing so you would have an Ethernet port [TS]

  no that's the thing you would have to [TS]

  get 12 USB Ethernet adapters and a [TS]

  router and 12 TVs because you have to be [TS]

  docked to do it but you could play 12 [TS]

  player Mario Kart in a LAN party [TS]

  scenario that sounds like an incredibly [TS]

  ridiculous manner setup but that sounds [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  how fun would that be that would be so [TS]

  much fun yeah [TS]

  but it to go back a sec John you were [TS]

  saying you were looking for me over the [TS]

  weekend didn't see me what are the [TS]

  complaints I do have about the online [TS]

  set up with the switch and maybe it's [TS]

  user ignorance so maybe maybe I'm dead [TS]

  wrong about this but I don't see any way [TS]

  where you can like notify somebody else [TS]

  I would like to play this game with you [TS]

  you can say in Mario Kart that you're [TS]

  looking for a friend that's online and [TS]

  you can start a room that's intended or [TS]

  I guess maybe the only two people that [TS]

  can that can go into that room or say me [TS]

  and you but there is no mechanism that [TS]

  I'm aware of where you can like ping or [TS]

  notify a person so let's say I'm playing [TS]

  Mario Kart I'm actively playing Mario [TS]

  Kart and John starts up his switch and [TS]

  sees me online and says oh I'd like to [TS]

  play KC I don't think I am ever notified [TS]

  play KC I don't think I am ever notified [TS]

  that you are asking to play with me [TS]

  which is a real bummer because then you [TS]

  have to like go to some other device to [TS]

  orchestrate the thing and then back to [TS]

  the switch to actually play and I feel [TS]

  like that's a real shortfall which [TS]

  really bummed me out but other than that [TS]

  it's worked really well now that being [TS]

  said yesterday we also did a group game [TS]

  this time with seven players and I don't [TS]

  know if it was because was over lunch we [TS]

  were standing relatively close to [TS]

  microwaves which is the same story it [TS]

  was on Monday but but either way the [TS]

  local land was not working well at all [TS]

  and the online multiplayer actually [TS]

  worked pretty much flawlessly so even [TS]

  though we were all sitting within at [TS]

  most you know 10 feet of each other and [TS]

  even when we moved away from the [TS]

  microwaves it still just didn't work for [TS]

  beings for some reason but once we all [TS]

  went online it actually worked great but [TS]

  so much fun to have it in person and one [TS]

  of the things that appealed to me about [TS]

  the switch which I think I've mentioned [TS]

  you know last week or the week before [TS]

  was this was that intro video where they [TS]

  showed like all the switches all in a [TS]

  circle and they were all playing like [TS]

  basketball or maybe a splatoon or [TS]

  something like that against each other [TS]

  and I thought man that looks so much [TS]

  like so much fun and you know what oh my [TS]

  goodness it's so much fun so John you [TS]

  really need to try that out or you know [TS]

  if one of your kids if their friends all [TS]

  if switches and they they do a slumber [TS]

  party or something you should just be [TS]

  that creepy old dad that invites himself [TS]

  to play along because it is super duper [TS]

  fun yeah organ ohmic issues though with [TS]

  using the switch handheld which I have [TS]

  tried a few times with Sony people [TS]

  raving about it but that's just for me [TS]

  personally it's time I always prefer to [TS]

  have a doc didn't use a controller and [TS]

  sit on the couch and look at the big TV [TS]

  and unlike with the Wii U where I [TS]

  actually thought I did it a little bit [TS]

  better with you playing on the gamepad [TS]

  maybe because of lag or whatever like [TS]

  the Wii U gamepad is way better for me [TS]

  ergonomically than the little tiny [TS]

  switch just too small and to you know I [TS]

  do worse when I race with it in that way [TS]

  than I do on the TV so I've been I've [TS]

  been playing America mostly on the TV [TS]

  and if I had to do like a land part I [TS]

  think it's nice that we go be in person [TS]

  and do the things but I would prefer to [TS]

  be in a scenario where the ridiculous [TS]

  scenario where there are 12 televisions [TS]

  and Ethernet things because that's the [TS]

  way I preferred [TS]

  play the game I mean I suppose you still [TS]

  have fun playing it playing it not at [TS]

  peak level with me trying to play at the [TS]

  handheld thing and doing terribly badly [TS]

  but uh yeah I'm and going back to it I [TS]

  was surprised that I felt like oh I [TS]

  haven't played Bearcat Aiden so long I'm [TS]

  gonna fire this game up and I'm just [TS]

  gonna see how awful I am but I still had [TS]

  it like I went directly to 200 CC which [TS]

  I had unlocked in the Wii U version [TS]

  already and I just pulled off a bunch of [TS]

  courses and I was doing pretty well like [TS]

  plus or minus the insanity of [TS]

  rubber-banding and item bombardment did [TS]

  you get in 200cc with the incredible [TS]

  cheating computer players I did okay [TS]

  except for a couple the tracks that were [TS]

  in like I guess I ran the most recent [TS]

  DLC that I'd only done a little bit I [TS]

  realized I just don't know those courses [TS]

  but I tend not to like the SNES tracks [TS]

  anyway it was a monster I mean like they [TS]

  were good on SNES but I you know I [TS]

  prefer the other tracks that are more [TS]

  dynamic that are you know ports room [TS]

  like GameCube and the credit ones [TS]

  directly so I had fun I don't know if [TS]

  I'm going to go through and like [TS]

  three-star everything like I did on the [TS]

  Wii U one because I find that incredibly [TS]

  frustrating at the upper levels because [TS]

  three starring at 200 CC will literally [TS]

  drive you mad if you have if you do not [TS]

  have much better skills than I do [TS]

  because I can do it but it takes me a [TS]

  long time and it's incredibly [TS]

  frustrating that the three-star because [TS]

  it doesn't mean just that you come in [TS]

  first at the end of the thing that means [TS]

  you basically come in first in every [TS]

  race except for one like this there's [TS]

  very little more or maybe as all of them [TS]

  there's very little margin of error and [TS]

  in 200cc in a world of Mario Kart it [TS]

  seems to me that almost no amount of [TS]

  driving skill can protect you from an [TS]

  unfortunate series of events that leads [TS]

  you to after an entire Grand Prix [TS]

  getting blown up ten feet from the [TS]

  finish line and watching one person zip [TS]

  by you and then oh sorry you didn't get [TS]

  three stars it's rough world out there [TS]

  America I go I go I went back to Zelda [TS]

  to relax I played a bunch of America I'm [TS]

  like I need to win I need to relax [TS]

  back to Zelda where I've already beaten [TS]

  the game I'm just like you know doing [TS]

  the fun side quests and furnishing my [TS]

  home and doing all sorts of exciting [TS]

  things and that was those much better [TS]

  you know it's funny you bring up Zelda [TS]

  again because um I found that since I've [TS]

  gotten [TS]

  Mario Kart 8 deluxe I am far less less [TS]

  likely to play Zelda not because