The Accidental Tech Podcast

220: Executive Box Lunch


  would any executive who had other

  options ever choose to eat a box lunch

  like well it's like anything that's

  executive so the name is always two

  levels of status up from the thing

  otherwise it wouldn't be a marketing

  name you know

  so executives would never have an

  executive box launch 17-year olds don't

  read Seventeen magazine and on and on

  aspirational I don't think executives

  have any form of lunch that comes in a

  box they should call it executives sack

  lunch like there there's literally there

  is nothing they could put in that box

  that would make that name seem

  reasonable just filled with caviar sack

  lunch the famous movie from Seinfeld

  to begin with follow up today friend of

  the show Daniel jacket has spent what

  seemed to be a surprising amount of time

  doing research on Mosconi lunches and

  I'm glad that Daniel did it so we don't

  have to he has looked up some

  information about the Mosconi box

  lunches we'll put a link in the show

  notes there's a few highlights that I

  wanted to call everyone's attention to

  the quote executive box lunch quote is

  $39.25 in the year 2017 according to

  Daniel I love so much that this is

  called the executive box yes the

  executive box lunch I am not kidding I

  mean in all fairness Craig federighi was

  allegedly eating one of these things

  backstage before talk show live and he

  is an executive and so therefore I guess

  that's aptly named but I tell you one

  thing when all of us are getting it in

  the big dining hall I sure don't feel

  like an executive no seems like what

  well it's not keep going case it because

  it's not $39.00 does not include all all

  the pricing and options included in this

  special Porsha lunch if you want formats

  and all four wheels and also a

  transmission it cost more yes so

  continuing on this is the description of

  the executive box launch which Daniel

  notes it's what he remembers from

  dub-dub in and it sounds the same to me

  so the description is as follows for

  compartment includes compostable service

  because California 25 guest minimum

  sandwich wrapper entree salad includes a

  choice of side salad dessert and fruit

  to accompany your box lunches we suggest

  adding assorted soft drinks and bottled

  water okay so let's talk about so

  drink some bottled water soft drinks of

  water are not included a 22% service fee

  as well as sales tax which is almost 10%

  are also added to the price so that $39

  and 25 cents box box lunch comes out to

  around $52 and you haven't had anything

  to drink yet your and this is this is

  Daniel writing want to really lose your


  each bottled water is $5.25 coming to

  $7.00 after service and taxes and this

  is again still Daniel and Markos long

  lost strawberry Seamonsters add Walla

  which is probably classified as assorted

  juices would set apple back an

  additional eight dollars a bottle add it

  all up and it's not hard to imagine the

  meals and snacks are coming to $100 a

  day or $500 a week per person nearly a

  third of the $1600 WWDC admission fee

  likely pays for food are you kidding me

  with this garbage moving on I don't know

  how the people who do it in San Jose but

  how their box lunches compare but the

  good news is the quote gourmet box lunch

  from the caterers in San Jose comes in

  at only $22 middle mineral waters soft

  drinks juices in bottled water are a

  mere four dollars and fifty cents each

  so a considerable savings once they move

  to San Jose on lunches alone how can you

  spend one spend $500 a week on those

  lunches like I was sitting here mostly

  defending them the last couple episodes

  they're not that bad you know they're

  passable they work not at $500 for the

  week are you friggin kidding me with

  this insanity no no no hard pass no so

  if they drop the price of the tickets by

  $500 like this back to the people and we

  all had to leave the building and find

  someplace else to eat and to come back

  I'm actually not sure that that would be

  better for the conference you're like oh

  just give me that 500 bucks I could

  spend that in San Francisco but then you

  gotta go find someplace to eat and I'm

  not sure the eateries that you can get

  to and back to the conference center in

  time to get the after lunch sessions can

  support that many people or are any

  better so oh no they're better but they

  probably can't support the people you're

  probably right about that but they are


  better I don't know I like a very

  depends like you can go to the or

  whatever that little mall thing it's

  over there and I mean give me the mall

  food court is better than the but is

  better but you gotta wait in these long

  lines and then you get your thing when

  you gotta fight somebody then you get

  back and that's like the closest

  possible choice I'm I'm wondering I

  would actually mostly be willing to pay

  for the convenience of not having to

  leave the the conference center while

  eating lunches that I don't really like

  because that convenience is what I mean

  and obviously the ideal choice would be

  to be able to get from someplace else

  but as Daniel points out that is in

  their rules you can't get food many

  files in case it wasn't clear yeah there

  is no choice Apple can't say oh we're

  just gonna we're going to bring in you

  know someone else Decatur nope not not

  even an option it's just insanity to me

  like how they can get fleeced that badly

  it's not apples fault it's just the way

  of the world but oh my goodness it is

  just barbaric that that's the answer

  well the way of the world in Apple Apple

  world is like if Apple this bothered

  Apple all that much just by Moscone like

  you I saw it tweet as I was catching up

  on my far behind in Twitter someone

  saying that uh with its cash Apple could

  buy all of the the Major League Baseball

  NFL and NHL teams and still have a

  hundred billion dollars left over is so

  crazy now and then somebody well

  actually that person and was like well

  actually that doesn't account for taxes

  but still the point stands like it's


  alright let's talk about a next iPhone

  rumors we talked to the past that there

  may be a touch ID bottom a button on the

  back of the phone which some people

  think is the end of times a lot of

  people like myself think man whatever

  but somebody a couple people actually

  pointed out well what does this mean for

  the home button then because a home

  button on the back does not seem good so

  how does that work and I don't know is

  the answer but I would guess that there

  is some sort of home button even a foe

  home button on the chin of the front of

  the phone I think that's what they've

  probably started

  the path of which with the immobile or

  non movable whatever the word I'm

  looking for is home button on the iPhone

  7 and maybe the whole thing becomes a

  home button I'm not really sure but it's

  certainly an interesting point I hadn't

  considered that you know today touch ID

  and home button are giel kind of

  co-located but in the future maybe they

  won't be so John what do you think about

  this yeah I think they they will be

  separate because it is more awkward to

  press a button on the back of the phone

  even a fake like non button I mean they

  can have it there in addition I suppose

  who's again it doesn't move it's not as

  if they they have to make room for some

  kind of mechanism and it's already going

  to be this little cutout area but I

  think they will continue to have a helm

  button on the front of the phone now

  whether that home button is virtual kind

  of like the touch bar where it's just a

  bottom section of the screen or

  something like that there's lots of Bend

  lots of rumors in the pass 11 and

  recently about how the touch bar

  technology of having this little

  separate accessory screen controlled by

  the OS and you know accessible perhaps

  accessible to applications through an

  API kind of like all you know the

  Android soft buttons and stuff like that

  might be a thing that would appear on a

  phone but even if that is doesn't exist

  at all the idea of there being a that

  you could squeeze the bottom part of

  your phone to go home like whether you

  can want to consider that a button and

  especially if it's completely embedded

  in the screen and there is no it's just

  a flat featureless piece of glass with

  no little cut out a circle or whatever

  we're still going to call that the home

  button and I'm thinking that they're not

  going to get rid of that no matter where

  the touch woody Sentra goes so it's

  basically a divorce of home button and

  touch ID where the home button can stay

  on the front but because of the because

  of the way it's done in the edge to edge

  screen and everything the touch ID

  sensor goes on the back and we just

  squeeze the bottom of our phones and I

  think I would mostly be okay with that

  too like an up to see have to try it for

  a while to see if I miss the little

  indented circle a lot of listeners wrote

  in to express love for the little

  indented circle as a way to feel like

  which end of your phone is up or like

  exactly where you have to squeeze but if

  you can squeeze anywhere along the

  bottom edge of the phone I guess then

  your only problem is if you have your

  thing upside down but I suppose you have

  the Lightning port to check whether

  that's the case anyway

  it's pretty weird that

  all of these rumors about the next phone

  surround like actual important physical

  changes to the exterior of the phone

  because all the past phones including

  like this you know six and seven

  generations where it's kind of the same

  on the outside had been about like what

  does it look like and what are the

  materials but the design of it's a you

  know a rectangle with a circle button on

  the bottom that you press in to go home

  and I guess the addition of touch ID

  have been so constant this is the first

  phone that's like that the story and

  this phone is it maybe differently

  shaped differently proportioned and

  functionality on it may be moving around

  in ways that has never moved around

  before so that's that's kind of exciting

  and you know kind of also a risky and

  that like they have a model that works

  here with this rectangle with the home

  button on the bottom and they've

  iterated and integrating refined and

  iterated and at but base the basic

  functions and stuff have been the same

  aside from you know a case you mentioned

  the last show that the power button

  moved to the side which is somewhat

  Explo by the increasing size of the

  phone and difficulty people would have

  reaching elapsed that's not but other

  than that the phone design of the phone

  has been pretty cocky on the headphone

  that headphone jack moving from top to

  bottom but the the physical design of

  the phone has been pretty constant and

  I'm kind of excited to see them you know

  say all bets are off we're moving things

  around and we're going to try something

  new so I actually had a chance to play

  with the Galaxy s8 a couple days ago in

  a Best Buy

  with the exception of it feelin too way

  too tall for its width and it being hard

  to reach things as a result I actually

  really enjoyed like that how you know

  the general like look of the edge to

  edge on the sides screen and everything

  and the way to the home button I just

  kind of instinctively like forced

  touched the lower area where the home

  button would be on an iPhone and it

  turns out that's exactly what they want

  you to do and it just clicked and it

  recognized any firm press in that area

  as a home button click and so the very

  first thing I tried worked and was

  correct and then as I was playing with

  it over a few minute that I did that

  here and there a few more times and

  every time it just worked exactly as

  expected and even when there was

  something on screen there you know

  something from the foreground app that

  is in that spot that you know if it

  misinterprets it as a touch it would've

  activated that thing but

  every time it interpreted it correctly

  and it was great it was totally fine so

  you know if Apple's going to go in a

  direction like that where part of the

  screen just becomes the home button

  I think they totally can we've seen with

  the iPhone 7 force touch button that's a

  possibility that's totally fine and and

  now we see with the s8 that it it

  actually really does work the only major

  question I would have for it is how do

  they show this to people like how did

  how is it handled in the in the UI does

  the usable area of the screen for apps

  actually extend that far like it does on

  the s8 or is there a little like you

  know reserved or like you were saying

  join like maybe like a touch bar like

  you know API area down there where like

  you know apps would only actually take

  up like the middle 80% of the height and

  you know maybe not the very top bottom

  or something like that you know but

  anyway that you know having having the

  just bottom area of the screen except a

  firm touch as a home button that works

  just fine I was going to ask if there

  are any accessibility implications for

  that but I would suppose with that um I

  figure what you call it but we talked

  about it a lot like several months ago

  where you have little on-screen button

  that lets you do the home button in like

  in all sorts of other gestures what

  what's the name of the thing you know

  what I'm thinking assistive touch I

  think yeah is to touch something like

  that thank you I was about to ask you is

  this an accessibility issue but I would

  suppose assistive touch would fix any of

  those problems I'm not sure but it's a

  change well the the issue would be that

  you could no longer feel the button like

  kids you know now you can feel that ring

  you know so it's like Java say more

  easily tell like which direction the

  phone is oriented without without like a

  physical depression on the front surface

  where the home button goes it's harder

  to tell which ways up by feel alone so

  that that would be an issue for sure I

  don't know how they would solve that

  maybe you just start getting used to

  feeling for like the camera bump or

  other features in the outside I don't

  know if it is a dedicated area they

  could do haptics to make it do it the

  tiniest little jiggle when your finger

  is over the reserved bottom section of

  the phone like there's all sorts of

  things they can do that's interesting

  playing playing switch games with it's a

  little it's been a couple articles

  recently about the the haptic engine in

  the Nintendo switch which is looks like

  the same tech

  apples been using its phones what I

  figure they're called linear

  something-or-other or whatever but it's

  it's better than the old vibrators and

  more precise and they're using it in

  games to make it feel like things on

  screen have some kind of physical

  presence and it's surprisingly easy to

  fool us I mean just we just talked about

  the home button last time like it

  doesn't feel like a button but it feels

  like a thing that we rapidly get used to

  and come to accept as the physical

  reality of the phone right and I think I

  think the best thing would be like if

  you could turn off I mean I suppose you

  can't isn't there some way you to turn

  off vibration can you turn off the

  haptic engine entirely I would assume so

  but I don't know yeah but anyway if it

  did turn off our devices would feel

  broken in a different way please like

  this is not how my glass rectangle is

  supposed to move or feel so adding

  something like oh when when your your

  finger physically touches the correct

  bottom part of the phone it gives the

  the tiniest little jiggle and that would

  be a physical way for you to feel with

  your hands which side is the top or

  bottom of my phone it wouldn't activate

  anything yet because you haven't

  actually pressed but basically when your

  feeling for that little circle you want

  to know which side is up you need that

  information you need at where I'd be

  provided physically that little circle

  is about as subtle as the little jiggle

  could be and once you find which side is

  up if the whole bottom of the phone

  functions is one giant button it's even

  easier to hit than that little circle so

  that that problem is solved so real-time

  follow-up to turn off system haptic

  switch has a subtitle of play haptics

  for system controls interactions that's

  in setting sounds and haptics and then

  there's options for vibrate on ring

  vibrate on silent sound in vibration

  patterns and all the way at the bottom

  is system haptic switch is a switch yes

  now does that turn off the home button

  just switch them on find out no the home

  button still does I have to click yeah I

  presume because it would be really

  really eerie if it didn't feel it would

  feel broken I mean to us if were you

  used to it it's like it's whatever you

  used to but it would feel like it

  doesn't it's not the same physical

  device anymore right that's the thing

  about haptic like though it's it's

  faking a physical must this is it gets a

  lot to my pet peeves that my you know

  things being done in hardware on video

  cards which is like now and increasingly

  dated peeve from the 80s

  mechanical keyboards that for a

  drives me nuts because you know like

  Topshop please show me the

  non-mechanical keyboards

  I can do that do you remember when they

  used to have the ones that they would

  like shine it looked like laser like a

  laser keyboard but it wasn't actually

  lasers I'm sure yeah and how did you use

  and how did you use those keyboards

  gazing uh you put your fingers on a

  surah you take your finger and you move

  it you mean you take a no no no missing

  the point you're just shining light on a

  surface say like on a desktop no John

  saying your fingers the Machine I know

  what thing you're talking about but you

  can't activate it with your mind you

  have to physically move your hands and

  press them into certain areas you're not

  the press but you have to place your

  fingers into the zone where the keys are

  that is a physical act the keyboard

  itself is not moving John wait so like

  when when a conductor waves the stick

  around in front of a band is that

  considered a mechanical device you know

  yeah I I would say I don't know it's

  difficult to say when you consider

  mechanical because it's not like that

  light is just being emitted naturally

  from the desktop we need an episode of

  mechanical or not this is this is

  definitely a pretty broad definition of

  mechanical that you're using huge right

  yeah when people talk about really in

  the context I'm saying people talking

  about chemical keyboards they're they're

  saying as compared to the keyboard that

  I'm sitting in front of which is the

  Apple aluminum extended which is 100%

  mechanical the keys move at you know

  making contact for the thing that causes

  a signal but it's not a quote-unquote

  mechanical keyboard it's a it's a very

  strange interpretation can i nitpick to

  your definition of 100% mechanical yeah

  what part of it is a mechanical I'm

  pretty sure there's like there's like a

  USB controller in there and I'm like no

  I mean the keyboard part of it means the

  same thing with mechanical keyboards

  when you're just activating a switch so

  electronic it's not like it's steam

  power it's like a typewriter where

  you're hitting a lever that's causing a

  big thing to whack into a piece of paper

  that makes you a key Jason Snell can you

  can you fix this for us so we don't have

  to do I know a pebble mean when they say

  mechanical keyboards is just a silly

  phrase like it is it is a term that has

  taken on this alternate meaning that

  doesn't really make sense if you think

  about it but it is accepted as a term of

  art so we all just say it and don't

  think about it

  help me Jason Snell you're my only hope

  but what what I was getting at before I

  do wrap myself that reference was

  but the the idea that that haptics are a

  replacement for things like the physical

  home button right when they're not you

  know they they work by doing a physical

  thing something in your phone is moving

  causing you to feel that motion it's

  just an entirely different motion than

  the surface that you pressed moving

  downwards relative this to the surface

  surrounding it but something is moving

  and it is and you are feeling it as a

  physical sensation so it is an alternate

  physical action to replace other

  physical actions is not the removal of

  like physical buttons with non physical

  buttons because I would say the iPhone 7

  button is still a physical button when

  haptics are turned on because you press

  as a physical action and you tell that

  your press has been registered or

  successful because you feel a response

  the response is not your finger getting

  lower inside the thing but it is a

  physical sensation and so this

  distinction between physical and

  non-physical controls as haptics get

  better like maybe it'll be like

  mechanical keyboards it's just that

  that's the way we'll describe it and you

  know we won't bother thinking about

  whether it makes sense or not

  but it is a clever way to make a device

  more reliable while still doing the

  thing that works best with humans we

  have you know hands and fingers that are

  sensitive and you know they're sensitive

  to motion it's a good way to tell how

  things are happening without looking at

  them so you can put feel in your pocket

  or Sokol you know physical buttons as

  opposed to those on physical ones I can

  feel what the volume controls are I can

  feel what the power button is I can feel

  where the home button is I can feel that

  it has been activated I can physically

  press it all that stuff plays to the

  strengths of our hands and fingers which

  is how we use our iPhones and so

  anything Apple does related to that is

  wise to to leverage those abilities in

  the same way the touch bar tries to do

  that but because it has no haptics

  you're left with kind of a surface that

  you have to look at more than you would

  otherwise and you can press on it but

  it's more like a touchscreen in that it

  doesn't do anything when you press any

  of those things which is another reason

  a lot of people have difficulties with

  touch bar is that it is replacing

  buttons with some

  that is less button like whereas I feel

  like the iPhone 7 home button replace

  the button with something that is it's

  like an alternate take on a button but

  it is you know it's like it's like they

  replace the function keys on the MacBook

  with the screen from the iPhone the

  screen is not the same kind of a button

  because they don't know where the

  buttons are going to be but on the touch

  bar seems like you could know they were

  kind of you know anyway this is just my

  mild musings on haptics but I think they

  are long-term I think there's there's


  this whole haptic thing I mean you know

  as Apple has been so excited and proud

  to show it's a little you know how much

  better the vibration is in each phone

  and this haptic engine that they they

  branded with this taptic stuff I think

  they're actually onto something there I

  think we'll just see more and more of

  that from Apple and other companies

  because it works with humans but they

  could be apples slogan since they're not

  doing the computer with the rest of us

  anymore competing with the rest of us

  anymore it works with humans TM we were

  sponsored this week by Kasper and

  obsessively engineered mattress at a

  shockingly fair price go to Casper comm

  slash ATP and use code ATP for $50

  towards your mattress Kasper created one

  perfect mattress and they sell it

  directly to consumers which eliminates

  Commission driven inflated prices the

  award-winning Casper mattress was

  developed in house as a sleek design and

  is delivered in a surprisingly small box

  you can actually get it up your

  staircase if you have narrow stairs and

  they also offer adaptive pillow and soft

  breathable sheets and the mattress

  industry has been full of notoriously

  high markups forever Casper has

  revolutionized it by cutting the cost of

  dealing with all these resellers and

  showrooms and passing the savings to you

  the in-house team of engineers spent

  thousands of hours developing the Casper

  mattress with supportive memory foams

  for a sleep service with just the right

  sink and just the right balance and the

  breathable design sleep school to help

  you regulate your temperature throughout

  the night and they've made buying

  mattresses online which sounds kind of

  crazy completely easy and risk-free

  here's how they do it they offer free

  delivery in a wonderful box and free

  returns within a hundred night home

  trial so you can just sleep on it for

  over three months and if you don't love

  it they will pick it up

  at your house and give you a full refund

  it's that easy they understand the

  importance of truly sleeping on a

  mattress before you commit because

  you're going to be spending a third of

  your life on it now we've heard from

  friends listeners who've all had great

  things to say about the Casper mattress

  Time magazine even named it one of the

  best inventions of the year when it came

  out so get yours today and try it for a

  hundred nights in your own home with

  free delivery and free returns with home

  pickup completely all risk free go to

  Casper comm slash ATP and use code ATP

  for $50 towards your mattress thank you

  very much to Casper for sponsoring our

  show ah let's talk about a wiki Tribune

  of which I know basically nothing and I

  am failing at my job as chief summarizer

  in chief so Marco I feel like I saw you

  tweeting about this when it first broke

  do you want to kind of fill us in as to

  what wiki Tribune is about honestly I

  barely know I just signed up because I

  wanted to support this cause so John can

  you give a better summary than that I

  can this has been a no no it's like

  three weeks people but I think I think

  one place we can start is Marco with his

  lack of knowledge why did you decide to

  sign up for the what did you do by

  signing up did you did you like have to

  give money or pledge to give money like

  what what it was the signup thing that

  you did it's some kind of like pre

  commitment type system like Kickstarter

  but like I don't think they're gonna

  charge me until they hit their minimum

  or unless they hit their own in them

  something like that but is a money thing

  like yours you're supporting this effort

  with money right yeah I signed up to

  making monthly donation or whatever it

  is - all right so what led you to do

  that well basically there's a lot of

  things about journalism these days that

  I think are really dysfunctional or

  broken and this seems like it could fix

  some of them not all of them you know I

  don't think it's probably possible to

  fix all of them but this could fix some

  of them in a fairly big way so if it

  works that'll be great

  if not you know I I lost a little buddy

  on the way and then I'll stop losing it

  when I cancel it that's it you know it

  seems like a good cause I feel like all

  of the Wikipedia donation prompts that I

  think that I've ignored over the year

  closed for the year is about giving I

  feel like maybe I owe something to Jimmy

  Wales's causes so here here I'm going to

  finally make that good I guess so to go

  back and give a vague summary of what

  that this thing is it is from the

  Wikipedia guy you've seen his face the

  top of Wikipedia asking for money now

  you can see his face on a different

  website asking you for money for a

  different thing so it has the pedigree

  of you know Wikipedia which is a

  tremendously successful community

  platform for doing whatever is people do

  on Wikipedia and this is about trying to

  make the news better like Marco satis

  give the same some of the same

  complaints about news and the incentive

  structures and how doesn't lead to good

  information being disseminated and

  there's lots of all anti patterns and

  with how its funded and what gets

  published and how its published and

  versus what people want to read and you

  know what sells ads and so on and so

  forth so this is a sort of Wikipedia

  style approach to news where it's very

  open and transparent so you everyone

  who's reading can see what's going on

  there's no ads so you don't have to

  worry about the entire thing being made

  to you know to drive ad views which is a

  problem in the web in general not just

  sun news and everything like that and

  like wikipedia is community oriented

  where it's not just like these people

  produce the content and the rest of the

  world reads it everybody participates in

  in theory making the things better

  although there are professional

  journalists involved as well so it's not

  just like hey make up whatever you want

  and publish whatever you want because

  that's just called the web that's not

  that's not and trying to you know be

  transparent to the people who are giving

  money like a you know how are they going

  to fund all this through people like

  Marco same way Wikipedia is funded how

  does Wikipedia exist Jimmy Wales head

  ask you for money every once in a while

  and there are I'm swimming there

  investors or stuff like that and they

  have this kind of Venn diagram at the

  top where it shows three circles and the

  three circles our community facts and

  journalists and wiki wiki Tribune is the

  confusing diamond-shaped intersection of

  all three of those circles own when I

  see the intersection between three

  circles I don't get a diamond shape but

  it's a logo that's some creative license

  there it's fine yeah and so I think

  Markos explanation of why he gave money

  is is probably a lot of people gave

  money it's like or you know because it

  is like Kickstarter it's like you know

  you you pledge money and if everything

  goes well you will get charged for your

  money or whatever no probably will this

  is very popular but it seems like a

  small amount and just like a Kickstarter

  you're like I don't know if they'll ever

  shut this damn cooler but it will cool

  so yeah

  spoiler alert like it's not a big deal

  like if they never go anywhere or if I

  fund it for a few months and it's not

  that good whatever but I think there is

  an appetite for an attempt to find a

  solution to the fix all of you know it

  journalism finds itself in at this

  moment in transition between the old

  world of newspapers and the way this

  they were funded and the barriers to

  entry in this new world where it's much

  easier for more people to publish but

  it's much harder to find ways to fund

  content that isn't sort of lowest common

  denominator you know because people go

  what people want to read and what what

  it we would be most beneficial to

  society that if people were to read are

  two very different things and that is a

  you know the incentives are not aligned

  if the only way you can get money is by

  attracting people to read things you

  will inevitably end up giving people

  what they want which is not always what

  they need which is a paternalistic view

  that people hate like oh the people in

  the ivory tower can determine what I

  need to see why can't people just pick

  what they need to see there's a balance

  like I mean even even in the battle days

  of my childhood when there was no

  internet there were things called

  tabloids that provided you same stuff

  you can find on the internet now

  something that stuff is like oh that

  didn't exist before the Internet of

  course it did like you know batboy found

  the National Enquirer like you know

  aliens are everywhere right that stuff

  has always and will always exist and I'm

  not even sure if it's any more prevalent

  than it is today the difference today is

  that the sort of slow motion decline of

  the ivory tower we know it's best for

  you were to apply a bunch of reasoning

  rules that you don't know about or agree

  with to try to provide what we think is

  you know the news that's fit to print

  and that has been in slow decline mostly

  rightfully so because it's kind of a

  concentration of power that is not you

  know that is artificial you know

  technological barriers to distribution

  information causing you to exist but I

  would also say that in this new world

  where it's easier to just route

  information a lot of people like Marco

  and and me and I would imagine Casey are

  less satisfied with how things are going

  now that we want to go back at the old

  ways because that was been in a

  different set of ways but there there

  are pathologies in the new structure of

  news that we wish we could get rid of

  it's like you know we all want to read

  really good high-quality you know

  journalism according to the you know the

  system of journalism is like it's

  something that most of us can agree upon

  kind of like scientific method it's just

  the question of it is a you know how is

  it executed by fallible humans and how

  do we provide the resources for it to be

  executed and that's what this thing is

  trying to provide now my my personal

  grudge against disagreement with

  indifference to Wikipedia as an

  institution depending on how you want to

  phrase it gave it caused me to have a

  little snarky chuckle when I saw this

  this Venn diagram here

  it's like community journalists and

  facts where I don't need to give me well

  so like oh oh now you care about facts

  Jimmy rails I thought it was just all

  about verified villainy wait a sec it

  and maybe they don't mean facts maybe

  they actually mean verifiability but

  that's the thing about journalism

  journalism you know like they are

  pursuing the truth of what happened it's

  not enough for a journalist to say you

  know is what you know one thing is for

  reporters to say let me just tell you

  what somebody said but journalists tried

  to uncover the truth if they can find

  out what really happened by talking to

  more people and gathering evidence

  that's part of journalism too and the

  journalist is not going to call it a day

  when they have quotes from three

  prominent people about what happened the

  journalists would like to know yeah but

  would really happen right I know these

  quotes are verifiable I know you said

  this at this time

  and this other paper publish this thing

  but what really happened what are the

  facts and that is an important part of

  journalism that is not an important part

  of Wikipedia is what community doesn't

  care what the hell the facts are because

  that's not what it is this tertiary

  source I don't want to go off on my rant

  about Wikipedia again so it's kind of

  exciting to see this taking a different

  slant on things but as I scroll down

  through their plan and see like

  journalists and commute and community

  cooperating all I can think about is

  like this is like a battle arena for

  edit Wars it's like edit war is

  distilled because if you think they're

  edit wars on the Wikipedia page for you

  know insert favorite controversial

  political figure can you imagine what

  the Edit wars will be like on literally

  any actual current event news story in

  the current political climate like

  there's almost nothing you can put in

  there you know articles being you know

  fact checked and verified by journalists

  and community community members working

  side by side as equals and I just just

  picture a giant arena with like people

  with boards with nails sticking out of

  them like I don't I'm not sure how it

  can work and you say well look at

  Wikipedia it works yeah I mean like you

  know that that's the biggest example

  like Wikipedia has the same issue you

  know any any kind of you know political

  topic also has a Wikipedia page and they

  you know they've built systems and

  policies and norms up around controlling

  that problem there too and so you know I

  think if you I think if anybody has

  shown that they have the ability to

  manage that part of this it's the people

  who made Wikipedia and and who built

  that whole community up so that I think

  I'm actually not concerned about the

  whole edit war problem I also do I also

  don't really go to the graffiti is a

  counterexample there's like no the fact

  that so many pages on Wikipedia are

  incredibly locked down because of the

  Edit horrors almost to the point where

  they become frozen in time which is kind

  of ok for historical things but for for

  pages that are ongoing they become the

  sole domain of a very small number of

  people who have even the ability to edit

  page and everybody else is completely

  locked out and yet still they have edit

  wars and arguments about what goes up

  like if not you can't do journalism in

  that environment I feel like the

  controversial pages on Wikipedia

  our a not the best source for

  information on their topics and B do a

  terrible job of staying up to date and C

  do not allow the input from the

  community because they have to be walled

  off they have to be cemented set in

  stone guarded night and day

  incredibly protected they become

  ossified I think the best pages on

  Wikipedia are the pages that few people

  care about but you know the classic

  example of being like lists of Pokemon

  and stuff right

  because oh I'll go K no one know well

  maybe they're already wars in Pokemon

  sorry if I'm big but like but pages that

  are on more obscure topics because the

  only people who edit and contribute to

  them are the people who really are

  interested in the topic no one cares

  enough to vandalize it or edit them and

  no one is there telling them what they

  can and can't add and especially if they

  don't have any kind of political or

  factional angle again Pokemon may not be

  great example they end up being filled

  with all sorts of interesting and useful

  information whereas the stories in any

  topic that has any controversial at any

  part of it that's controversial you're

  better off just scrolling to the bottom

  looking all the references and reading

  all those than actually reading the

  Wikipedia page so I mean I get what

  you're saying about they have systems in

  place but I think the system's negate

  the advantages they're trying to do we

  just fly every Wikipedia because every

  page on Wikipedia is not a super duper

  controversial page in fact very few of

  them are so the vast majority wikipedia

  is awesome when you just want to get a

  quick plot synopsis of a particular

  episode of Doctor Who in a particular

  season that's on Wikipedia and you'll

  find it quickly and the webpage won't be

  gross or filled with ads and it's a

  reliable source for that because no one

  cares enough about to screw with it or

  as reliable as any source could be but

  when you go to any page having to do

  with any controversial topic I feel like

  like when's the last time you read a

  Wikipedia page and a controversial topic

  like I don't I don't even bother going

  to them anymore like I would again

  rather just scroll right down to the

  references and read the you know primary

  and secondary sources than this dystocia

  Airy summary because it doesn't it

  doesn't speak to me as a as a great

  source of information well I mean keep

  in mind that you know these days every

  fact is a controversial topic even in

  those days of things that you would

  think wouldn't be and also that you know

  wiki Tribune is is I think largely

  probably not going to have this problem

  because it's probably not going to be

  that big of a deal if it does become a

  big deal if it does actually start

  attracting large amounts of traffic

  then I think it will rise to the the

  levels of you know these kinds of

  challenges that Wikipedia has because

  Wikipedia has been you know such a

  massive you know traffic getter for so

  long so you know it's ranked so well

  everywhere but like wiki Tribune is

  starting from zero it's starting from no

  audience basically so it might be a

  while before you had enough people to

  matter and honestly I disagree with you

  I think Wikipedia is as good as

  something like this could be about

  dealing with controversial things like

  that you know it's it's a hard problem

  but but the bar it depends on the

  contrary I mean use the main controversy

  I haven't use Wikipedia controversial

  pages is the idea that the people who

  hold the keys to power to the

  controversial pages themselves tend to

  be homogeneous and have various biases

  let's say yeah that's a private and that

  the system itself has no way to deal

  with that like that it concentrates

  power like I like I'm thinking of wiki

  Tribune as perhaps an unintentional

  backdoor way to get people to just

  straight up pay for news which many

  people the front-door way has been like

  hey sign up for the New York Times

  digital like can we can we make money

  from people paying us to read our web

  pages everyone's been trying to do that

  it's really difficult the whole paywall

  thing right wiki Tribune is like we're

  open and free to everybody man fast

  forward five years if they get super

  popular and they lock everything down

  and eventually it's like wait a second

  this is just a newspaper where

  professional journals do things and

  people pay them and it's not a giant

  community published thing it is like a

  bunch of articles that nobody can add it

  picks every single story about the

  president is super duper controversial

  and every one of them is super lock down

  the only people get edited of the

  professional journalists who get money

  from the contributors and the five

  people who all happen to be the same

  type of person with the same type of

  background who has the time and

  inclination to spend all day on a wiki

  Tribune and now it is just a weirdly

  organized newspaper that you'll pay for

  which wouldn't be the end of the world

  because again that's things that people

  have been looking for hey can we get

  people to pay money to support News like

  as opposed to wanting everything for

  free and wanting every article to be you

  know a click Beatty tabloid e celebrity

  news kind of thing I guess if they do

  that they're kind of a success but I

  have a hard time envisioning a future

  where that where

  or they are wildly successful and yet

  still still even open to the degree that

  Wikipedia is open because unlike

  Wikipedia pretty much everything a news

  organization will report will attract

  factions okay like like you said Marco

  they could report on the weather and

  people will yeah well we'll leave nasty

  comments about you know climate denial

  so that you know like that I can't think

  of a top there's not even a human

  interest story if I try to put something

  about dogs and people won't like it like

  nothing is safe in this climate so they

  have their work cut out for them but all

  this said I don't feel like I'm slamming

  would be on the potential what it could


  I didn't donate any money but I wish

  them well because I also like Marco want

  somebody to address this problem and no

  one has it tried this proach no one with

  of this caliber has a tried this

  approach so we're not going to find out

  if it works unless somebody does it and

  so I'm like alright you know go forward

  like I certainly the fact that facts

  with a little arrow is a big circle in

  the middle makes me happy by all means

  go for that the other aspect of this is

  say they succeed in producing what they

  say they're going to produce and their

  system produces good content do people

  read it I guess

  like is that something people want to do

  I want to go to wiki Tribune because

  they have they got their facts straight

  I mean everyone wants a non-partisan

  news source right now they don't know

  everyone wants to hear their own their

  own biases reflected to them and repairs

  people want like I said something like

  how do they get people to come and read

  this like it was easier when you only

  had a few choices and all those choices

  had you know had systems in place that

  constrained what could be talked about

  which perpetuated you know tons of

  systems of power in terms of whose

  stories got to get told with what angle

  on them so it was terrible in many many

  ways but the good aspects of it were in

  the areas where the system wasn't

  completely aligned against hearing about

  things that you know that we weren't

  supposed to hear about there was an

  expectation that for example the news

  department and advertising were

  separated from each other in some way

  like that was part of the

  suppose they work based on and that only

  works if the news department isn't isn't

  responsible for bringing in more money

  if year after year after year and that

  ship is long sailed so now it's like got

  to make more money got to get more

  viewers how do we do that tell them what

  they want to hear and the cyclist goes

  around around that's what this is trying

  to resolve so say it resolves it and

  they make real quality news but no one

  ever comes and reads it they still a


  maybe I don't I think I really think

  this could be very popular because I

  think somebody like that the two of you

  guys and myself somebody like us who

  wants to be informed but wants a very

  level-headed take as to what's going on

  I think this is a potentially pert well

  maybe not perfect but a really great

  answer to that need I agree with you

  that I shouldn't have said everyone

  wants this because a lot of people

  probably don't want this but I also

  think there's a lot of people that do

  want this that do you want a

  level-headed take on things that's why

  for example in my RSS reader that I

  rarely look at anymore my source of news

  is the BBC because I have the BBC's us

  coverage and I feel like that is the

  least politically motivated news source

  that I can find I don't need to hear of

  better ones I don't really care if the

  BBC is imperfect that's I'm not trying

  to start a fight here oh they just

  they're just reinforcing your biases

  that's why you like them if it could be

  very well could be that's what I thought

  that's the situation I think we find

  ourselves in wait wait what if your

  biases are true in fact I'll say yeah

  the idea here's the problem with it with

  polarized marketplace is that you know

  things don't exist in isolation say

  there was a news source that would did a

  really good job but did a really good

  job of executing journalism classic

  journalism the rule of journalism which

  you know like the traditional rules of

  journalism in terms of what you're

  supposed to do as a reporter and what

  your job is and isn't all separate from

  you know editorial and opinion which is

  a whole separate thing but just like the

  plain straight up journalism reporting

  thing there's still an editorial

  function deciding what should and

  shouldn't you cover how many stories in

  topic a

  the source and topic could be how many

  how many stories about this aspect of

  whatever like it's impossible to pull

  yourself entirely away from that and

  it's also impossible to think about what

  your publication is doing in isolation

  you exist as a publication in an

  ecosystem with tons of other

  publications and a lot of the ecosystem

  is defined by how many people read or

  you know watch or whatever consumed

  these different publications and in that

  environment that's why you see a lot of

  like you know people on our side of the

  world liberals or whatever being drawn

  to liberal-leaning

  publications because they see it as the

  only possible way to counterbalance the

  things leaning in the other direction

  because we know those things that

  leaning the other direction exist we

  know what we all think they're terrible

  and we know tons and tons of people use

  them as their exclusive source of news

  and so by providing it a neutral thing

  it's like well that's all well and good

  if we just want to know what's happening

  but if we want to balance the scales and

  that we have to have a left-leaning

  publication and eventually like I want

  to read the left-leaning thing because

  all I hear all day from you know people

  who I disagree with is them citing

  they're super duper right-leaning things

  and so don't lean and that's how you end

  up with polarization SuperDuper

  left-wing super duper right-leaning and

  so I I don't feel like I want that I I

  tried to find something that I think is

  in the middle but like Casey with the

  BBC I'm sure what I think is in the

  middle is not actually in the middle and

  really what I'm seeking is some you know

  some it's not in the execution of the

  journalism but in the choice of what

  they're reporting about right or in the

  choice of like you know what their

  editorials are about and how they

  apportion their coverage because that in

  itself is is a political stance right so

  when I read the Washington Post I feel

  like here's good reporting here they're

  still executing journalism according to

  the old ways but what the Washington

  Post decides to cover is decidedly

  left-leaning in terms of the number of

  stories on topic ABC and D right and I'm

  okay with that but I would still you

  know and I would still say the

  Washington Post and even the New York

  Times are examples of good executions of

  classic journalism

  but I would also agree that both of them

  are quote unquote left-leaning as

  compared to the choices of things and

  headlines that the right leading

  publications choose to cover and they're

  they're a counterbalance right so if

  there was something was really straight

  up the middle I'm not sure that would be

  doing much of a service because

  especially if the two polar polarize

  ends continue to be what they are unless

  everybody at the ends it kind of agrees

  like like the wikipedia wicked tribune

  is like the tiebreaker right and as

  marco pointed out before and we'll keep

  going back to that is impossible in a

  world where we can't agree on the facts

  there is no it's like well we have we

  have you know the this left-leaning

  editorial selection and we have this

  right reading editorial selection but we

  all agree that the facts of water and we

  keep your being right and be like no no

  the right will say we don't agree on

  facts at all and so what function is

  what you tribune even serving there

  unless it starts getting cited by the

  newspapers which would be funny but

  we'll see I mean at this point there are

  people actually arguing whether to let

  people die in our country who were sick

  once because they don't have enough

  money and they should therefore die that

  is that is literally what we are arguing


  I like the better in the 80s when they

  have like sophisticated sophisticated

  ideological arguments but they have

  abandoned those now it's just like why

  should you get to live like good point

  they're evil person why should I get to

  live what right do I have to life or

  liberty or any kind of you know looking

  for happiness that sounds crazy to me

  yeah I mean it was your fault that you

  got you know sick when you were a

  teenager or something so therefore you

  know the penalty for that should

  obviously be death right I should try to

  look like a child living right Marco

  here I think of that yeah I mean look we

  all did it right why can't you yeah you

  know the Jimmy Kimmel son did you guys

  watch that that monologue hoodie days

  ago I heard enough about it that I

  couldn't watch it I so I saw it fly by

  I've been doing a couch to 5k lately and

  and during one of the walking parts I

  was like you know cruising through

  Twitter as I was power walking probably

  look like a moron

  but be that as it may whatever day was

  this this popped in the

  earning onto my you know my world and I

  watched it or listen to it I should say

  I didn't watch any of it I listened to

  it as I was like going between walking

  and running and walking and running and

  basically I was on the verge of balling

  the entire time but if you're one of

  those monsters that thinks that a

  pre-existing condition is something that

  you know just that's enough to

  disqualify you that's cool um you should

  read the ER you should listen to the

  story about Jimmy Kimmel's son who was

  born with a terrible heart defect and

  were it not for some of the protections

  I know we shouldn't be getting this

  political but here we are without some

  of these protections that I know it's

  important you know like it's certain you

  know we as we've talked about like

  certain times politics your other world

  events do bleed into relevance to all

  people and I and I think this is one of

  those times like this is a topic that

  that is among many things so politicized

  more than I think it probably should be

  and I think a lot of that is

  intentionally artificial to hide the

  things that the politicians really want

  to get accomplished which mostly have to

  do with money for themselves and and you

  know their their class of people and

  their associates and lobbyists and

  everything else so there's lots of that

  stuff going on in the background here

  and we're arguing about you know whether

  people who have not been as lucky as

  some of us should go bankrupt and die

  because of that and that's that is

  unconscionable yeah yeah so anyway so

  this this Jimmy Kimmel thing it's a

  little under 15 minutes it's worth every

  second in my personal opinion and in

  like I said I was on the verge of

  balling the entire time I listened to it

  but the short short version is his son

  had a terrible heart defect he is now

  fine and you if some of the changes to

  American healthcare that have been

  proposed pass then his son would never

  be able to have health insurance for the

  rest his life because he was born with a

  problem with his heart so yeah I guess

  the son should have been living in the

  womb better and made better choices in

  utero and then he wouldn't have this

  problem right that's how this works yeah

  they may listen to too much heavy metal

  music who knows I mean and the thing

  like this isn't

  it's not like this is a theoretical it's

  not like you know we think people will

  go bankrupt and die because of this note

  we know because that's how it was before

  the ACA a lot of people went bankrupt

  and died this is not a small thing this

  is not an unknown it's very much known

  we were there it was horrible we tried

  to fix it as best as we could and it

  wasn't perfect but the right fix is not

  to go back to that we've seen it already

  we've tried that I don't know why this

  is even possibly a point of contention

  well I dunno why really but it's not a

  good reason yeah and one of the things

  that um was fascinating by about having

  this tweet that uh that I'd sent in in

  January about the Affordable Care Act

  which will link all this and show notes

  but one of the fascinating things about

  having a tweet that gets retweeted

  16,000 times is that everyone and their

  mother comes and tells you about why

  you're right why you're wrong and in the

  tweet that I had tweeted read opposition

  I've heard to the Affordable Care Act

  number one it costs me money number two

  it's not perfect support for the

  Affordable gif that I've heard for the

  Affordable Care Act number one I would

  have died without the coverage

  guaranteed which is what we're talking

  about and man so many people came out of

  the woodwork and like no you don't get

  it it's about this it's about that one

  person had said I forget how he phrased

  it but something along the lines of I

  shouldn't have to pay for people who eat

  McDonald's all the time to deal with

  their diabetes so okay III live health I

  live a healthy life I shouldn't have to

  pay for all these unhealthy people well

  aren't you a winner but anyway after

  just hundreds of stories about the

  Affordable Care Act more it's great and

  why it's terrible the only good opening

  my estimation anyway the only good

  answer I heard about why the Affordable

  Care Act was bad was that some people

  said well I make enough that I'm priced

  out of all the subsidy tiers and I'm way

  oversimplifying here but I I make enough

  money that I'm priced out of all the

  like super cheap tiers but I don't

  really make enough to afford like the

  the whatever the opposite scenario was I

  forget what it what it is but basically

  they were in this like- this really

  terrible middle-of-the-road

  here's an example this is somebody that

  tweeted I pay more than I can afford for

  insurance with the deductible too high

  to matter it's that's pretty crummy and

  that should get fixed but everything

  else was like just people who basically

  are looking for their fellow man to die

  because they didn't want to pay for them

  to live and that's just I don't

  understand how this is a question how is

  this a question right now I don't get it

  that's the thing is like like there's

  your that that sentiment of like why

  should I pay for the people who aren't

  healthy like that is such a toxic way to

  think because like okay well let's

  follow that through if that's what you

  think that you don't that you shouldn't

  have to pay for people who are you know

  who do things that you don't like or

  whatever and that makes them unhealthy

  even though a lot of times they can't

  help what has made them unhealthy but

  anyway suppose you don't want to pay for

  it okay

  what should the penalty be for someone

  who does this thing you don't like who

  can't afford it is that punishable by

  death is is that an appropriate you know

  penalty like literally like that's like

  is that is that your actual position

  like if that's what you think don't ask

  questions you don't want the answers to

  is they would say yes of course they're

  getting what they deserve that's exactly

  what they say I mean if these people

  actually think that way I think they

  should own that I think they should come

  right out and say yes I think all these

  people who who can't afford the health

  care should die like if that's what they

  think let's let's bring that discussion

  let's see how that discussion goes in

  the hotel we have people in Congress

  owning that at this point that's true I

  don't think it's that a position people

  are shrinking from and I mean but and

  the thing is like you can apply that

  kind of thinking you know I should I

  have to pay that to everything that

  government provides like that's kind of

  the whole nature of government like it

  provides a bunch of services with with

  people's tax money most of which you

  know like any given person probably

  doesn't directly use a lot of these

  services but they've also benefit from

  lots of other ones and it's a different

  pool for each person you know and that's

  the role of government like why should I

  pay for a giant military that starts

  wars I don't want well that's just part

  of the government like its it it's part

  of our system we vote for things and

  that you know this is what happens and

  and sometimes our votes even are counted

  properly and equally and I just this

  this is so toxic and I

  I wish I I wish I knew what it was that

  made people so hateful everybody else

  really like maybe it's just because

  everyone else listens to way less fish

  than I do but I just cannot possibly

  understand what it is that makes someone

  think to themselves oh I would those

  people don't deserve to live

  like I I don't I don't get that at all

  and that's what makes me really sad that

  that that is such a prevalent attitude

  as well as they hearkened back to the

  the days of the 80s when it was commonly

  accepted that the goal was to make

  people healthier and the only argument

  was about how best to do that the

  free-market can do it know the

  government could do it know the

  government is inefficient and bloated

  and we will have a better system of

  without competition and bla bla black

  that was levelled the argument that was

  going on right and these days that is

  not like the level the argument that the

  accepted premises of trying to get

  everybody as healthy as possible like

  people barely on the right give you know

  barely make faints in that direction

  like they're not even interested in

  saying you don't understand this way

  people will actually be healthier fewer

  people will die like everyone will you

  know then that's they'll they'll say

  that at the broad level but they will

  not make they will not actually show how

  the numbers add up they will not show

  their math I will not say look here's

  what we say even if it's just bs

  predictions BS sort of trickle down any

  predictions if we allow this to happen

  and this competition happens here and

  there what's going to happen you know

  let me show you my BS model with BS

  predictions that are going to do that

  feel like we don't need to do that we

  just wave our hands and you know pick

  one person against the other and get

  boat do what it takes to get this past

  and then you know then we end up with

  what we end up with I miss I miss the

  the pretend intellectual debates is what

  I'm saying

  I just I don't get it just makes me so

  sad like it's it's just I don't

  understand how any intelligent human

  being with three brain cells to rub

  together can think that the Affordable

  Care Act is bad I just don't get it like

  oh it's not perfect no it is bad I mean

  it's but but it's you know it's like

  what should we move to something worse

  I'm gonna say no we say no we shouldn't

  do that right the whole like you know

  perfect enemy of the good thing like you

  know healthcare is is a hard problem

  it's really expensive to provide health

  care for people that has to be paid for

  somehow whether you're you know whether

  it's people paying themselves or whether

  it's government single-payer to kind of

  things or some kind of weird thing

  between like what we have now like it's

  just it's a hard problem it's a really

  hard problem but that you know the ACA

  took this really hard problem that was

  really in a bad state before and made it

  less bad and yeah the cost went up we

  are all paying more now for worse

  coverage but that was happening anyway

  anybody who was actually paying for

  their coverage before the ACA saw that

  trend already in fact with the ACA I'm

  I'm still now paying less than what I

  paid the year before the ACA went to

  effect and the coverage isn't as good

  but I'm actually still netting less per

  year expenditure for it and also I'm Way

  less worried about some crazy hitting

  some crazy limit or you know like a

  lifetime limit or present conditions all

  of a sudden excluding everyone from

  everything like this is a better system

  and it still sucks and that's why people

  are so mad because it is still really

  expensive and coverage still does really

  suck and we all have high deductibles

  now and we all have like having to go

  through crappy mail-order pharmacies for

  our prescriptions but that was happening

  before whatever the Republicans get

  through whatever they do to this I

  guarantee you your coverage is still

  going to be really expensive and you're

  still gonna have to deal with BS from

  mail-order pharmacies and having to fill

  all these different referrals

  everything's that's all going to still

  be there and your costs are going to go

  up the year after that and the year

  after that and every year after that

  your costs are going to keep going up

  and up and up this whatever they pass is

  not going to solve that it can't what

  they all they're trying to do is go back

  to the way it was before the ACA which


  and yet the ACA sucks but that sucked

  way more before and that's what they

  want to go back to it is really hard to

  talk with us because literally thousands

  of additional peope

  we'll die every year because of this

  like this is not a small thing this

  isn't just like oh I'll have an extra

  200 bucks a month it's as like no

  thousands of people will die and like

  you know you look at things that change

  in our country policies laws liberties

  that change in our country as a result

  of say September 11th lots of things

  change because of that and then if you

  look at like how many people are dying

  unnecessarily because of not having

  proper health care it is such a massive

  problem and so many people go bankrupt

  or die or both unnecessarily it is

  unconscionable to me that we that we

  still continue to try to go back to the

  way it was because it was worse and I

  and again like I know I know why people

  are so mad at the ACA because they see

  those bills coming in every month for

  the it for the healthcare and they'll oh

  yeah my premium keeps going up my

  coverage keep getting worse yeah but

  that was happening before this made it a

  little bit less crappy for everybody and

  now we're going to go back to that I

  just it's it's awful it's a cut off your

  nose in spite to spite your face

  situation and after tomorrow you won't

  be able to get your nose put back on and

  then it'll be a pre-existing condition

  if you try to switch coverage so you're

  just screwed the whole way down mm-hmm

  but don't worry guys at least the

  figurehead of the new system won't be a

  black guy so it's all good now yeah or

  woman heaven forbid we are sponsored

  this week by endo Chino custom-made

  suits made exactly two year measurements

  that'll fit you better than any

  off-the-rack suits ever could Indo Chino

  has made it easy to get a perfectly

  tailored suit at an incredible price

  everybody looks better in clothes that

  fit them nicely and Indo Chino suits

  will be custom made for your measurement

  so they will fit you better they will

  make you feel better than pretty much

  anything else you can get anywhere else

  endo chinos made this easy by they'll

  let you choose from hundreds of top

  quality fabrics you can personalize your

  suit to just the way you want it whether

  it's for work or a wedding or another

  special occasion they have suited up

  hundreds of thousands of people

  hundreds of thousands of people

  well they are the largest

  made-to-measure menswear brand in the

  world so here's what you do you go to

  endo tchen or comm you take your

  measurements and they make this

  incredibly easy they have these great

  videos that show you exactly how to

  measure yourself you type in each

  measurement as you go it's nice and easy

  you submit these to them and then you

  choose your fabric any kind of

  customizations you want from lapels

  depletes to linings and lots more stuff

  then you place your order and wait for

  it to arrive in just a few weeks it's

  that easy this week listeners can get

  any premium

  Indo Chino suit for just three hundred

  eighty nine dollars 389 with our code

  ATP at checkout to get any premium suit

  custom-made for you at indogene oh

  that's 50% off the regular price once

  again go to endo tchen or comm promo

  code ATP to get any premium suit for

  just 389 with free shipping also it's an

  incredible deal for a suit that will fit

  you better than anything off the rack

  ever could thank you very much to endo

  chino for sponsoring our show ah Amazon

  releases the Eco look here again I don't

  know a lot about it except in this case

  it's because I really don't care but

  apparently it's an echo with a camera

  that will tell you if you look good or

  not or something along those lines so

  what's going on here and are we

  enthusiastic about it John you get him

  one I don't think I'm gonna get one of

  these but I actually am because I'm

  enthusiastic about it but I think what

  it is doing is a natural thing to do and

  I think we're going to see more of it

  not less like in the same way that I was

  strangely or at least not uniquely but

  it was I think I had more enthusiasm for

  the Amazon echo when they first showed

  that little ad with the cylinder more

  more optimism let's say that this could

  potentially be a cool useful thing then

  most people who saw up is they were like

  this looks dumb it's never going to work

  and I had the same kind of this looks

  dumb and it's not going to work as well

  as they show a working reaction to but I

  was also kind of like this class of

  device seems like it could be a thing

  and now I see this which is like

  essentially a little camera so I imagine

  combining with

  with a camera it's a camera that you can

  talk to that a some awareness of who and

  where you are and it has some specific

  functionality having to do with fashion

  and Amazon trying to sell you clothes

  and yadda-yadda like I don't think the

  details matter that much except that

  this is like because it's Amazon and

  because they have the pedigree of the

  echo that this product and because

  they're going to push it like crazy on

  their website that this product has as

  good a chance as any to be the first

  product to get any kind of traction in

  this category the category is simply a

  computer that you can talk to that also

  can see you write the Damelin echo and

  the dot and and Google home and all

  those things are like a computer that

  you can talk to a computer that you can

  talk to they can also see you natural

  evolution the number of things that you

  can do with that ability with all of our

  even just current technology for like

  facial recognition and identifying

  things in scenes and you know the Kinect

  Xbox style understanding gestures and

  your position in the position of your

  body and stuff like that that is a rich

  vein of interaction with computing

  devices that we should begin to tap and

  if it has to be a weird fashion camera

  that spies on you and uploads pictures

  of you to Amazon to sell you more

  clothes I mean the cylinder had to ended

  up being in Amazon things let you buy

  paper towels by talking to it like

  things come in weird packages right like

  man I suppose it beats the old way which

  is everything had to be attached to porn

  in some way to get an interaction all

  this potentially could be as well but I

  put it I am enthusiastic about the

  future of devices that are computers

  that can hear and see you and so I think

  there needs to be more of these things

  and they need to get better and they

  will be cool and make our lives better

  provided we can avoid all the pitfalls

  that which is basically people are

  talking about the echo all the privacy

  and security and you know just general

  creepiness implications but I think I

  think the foundation is sound so I wish

  them I wish them some success that I

  hope they learn from it and branch out

  I'm just now watching the video quickly

  I don't wait you know with no audio I'm

  just looking at the video as you're

  talking and

  and I think I would have noticed but

  certainly was called out in one of the

  podcast I was into this week that there

  isn't a man in this video until like the

  last ten seconds which is actually

  pretty cool that they're you know

  pitching this directly women and and I

  think you're it stands to reason that

  your average woman would be more

  enthusiastic about this in your average

  man obviously that's not a universal

  truth but I think that's kind of cool

  and I personally am NOT in love be

  partially because I haven't really lived

  it I'm not in love with the idea of an

  echo in general let alone an echo with

  eyes but again just because I'm not

  really gaga for it doesn't mean it's not

  a good idea not a good device it's just

  it's not something that I feel like I

  need right now

  Marco so first of all there was a

  there's a great discussion about this

  especially by Lisa Schmeisser who knows

  a lot about retail on the first episode

  of the new reel a podcast called

  download this is kind of this is like

  Jason Snell's kind of new hosted show

  almost like an expanded clockwise but

  more broad and even more produced and

  like even more wide audience

  I'm guessing over time this might become

  the biggest show on relay and one of the

  biggest tech shows period so I would

  suggest getting on the ground floor and

  going to subscribe to download now at

  relay to FM slash download anyway they

  didn't pay me or even asked me to say

  that but I think you should because

  that's really good anyway great

  discussion on episode one by Lisa miser

  especially about this from the retail

  point of view from a lot of good

  knowledge that we don't personally have

  but a grilling I've really enjoyed

  anyway I'm with you you know obviously

  this is being marketed heavily towards

  women and it's hard for me to fully

  understand it as both a man and also a

  man who doesn't care at all about his

  own personal fashion and so it's on your

  wrist except on my wrist I care very

  much about that but I don't need a

  camera tell me which watch to wear

  everyday I just put on the one I'm done

  I feel like wearing and I enjoy it but

  you know that's if there was one that

  took a wrist shot for me every day and

  compete like and gave me like a wrist

  book of shots of how I looked over time

  maybe that might

  do something I don't know it it bottom

  line this isn't for me and so I I don't

  want to try to I don't want to make

  large proclamations about it either way

  because it's fundamentally a product I

  understand and this made it very clear

  to me by the reactions on Twitter when

  this was announced it was

  extraordinarily polarized tech dudes

  like us largely said largely made fun of

  it and said why would anybody want to

  buy this oh my god Amazon is nuts

  and a lot of people who were not tech

  dudes who you know I would venture to

  guess that most of us myself included

  probably where the basic you know

  t-shirt every day that we don't have to

  wear something for work you know t-shirt

  and jeans maybe that's kind of the

  uniform of tech a hoodie if it's cool or

  if you live in San Francisco you know

  that's that's kind of uniform of like

  tech geeks so all of us look at this and

  said this is crazy why we let Amazon put

  a camera on her bedroom to do this thing

  we don't care about but people who were

  really into clothing and fashion really

  enjoyed this the reaction from most of

  them and this wasn't all women I I

  should say I'm trying I'm very carefully

  you know trying to dance around the the

  women angle here but I don't want to be

  sexist but it is very clear that this is

  how this is being targeted and and I did

  see very different reactions from most

  women compared to most men in my

  timeline but I really don't want to say

  anything more than that because I don't

  know I'm talking about it is not at all

  for me but I think this will probably

  succeed you know when when the original

  echo cylinder first came out we all made

  fun of it because first of all the the

  way it was presented the video it was

  presented and was awful I mean it was it

  was comical it was comically bad and it

  was pretty soon after the fire phone and

  so we were pretty sure like you know

  yeah Amazon really is nuts but their

  hardware they don't know what they're

  doing it did indeed sound crazy that

  you're going to put a microphone in your

  house that listens all the time and is

  owned by Amazon really but then it only

  takes like one friend to get it and for

  you to be at their house for a little

  while and and you know with they're

  using it to kind of see like oh actually

  that's pretty cool and so it is

  I think we're like it it does sound kind

  of ridiculous up front but it might

  succeed anyway and I think all you need

  to know to know whether it will succeed

  or not is like are there is there any

  group people right now right up front

  who are saying oh my god yes give me

  that right now and the answer from what

  I can see is yes my wife wants one I

  know a bunch of uh people on Twitter who

  said they wanted one like again it isn't

  for everyone but it is probably

  definitely for some people and so even

  though it seems creepy you know to me as

  a nerd it's going to be a thing and I

  think I I would I would not discount

  Amazon in this I would not assume

  they're crazy I will occasionally make

  funny tweets about it but but I do think

  they're probably going to sell this and

  it's probably going to become part of a

  bigger thing and it's probably going to

  have its own little weird oddities just

  like every Amazon product that always

  does but I think it'll work long-term I

  think you need to have any weird

  speculation and say like oh it will be

  for some people because like it is so

  right down the middle of things that we

  know people already like to do in

  massive numbers people like to take

  pictures of themselves the word selfie

  is known to far and wide for a very good

  reason if you look at how people use

  social media and how many times they're

  taking pictures of themselves or what

  they're wearing very often on a regular

  basis right this is merely an automation

  of that in the same way that the Amazon

  echo is an automation of all the things

  you have other ways to do like this is

  not speculative that people might want

  to take pictures of themselves with

  their outfits all right this is just you

  know so that there's so clearly a

  marketing the only question is does does

  this product automate it in a way that

  actually makes it easier to do a thing

  that we know people want to do we know

  they want to do it they do it like crazy

  now manually the hard way having

  something that's you know this again as

  the first application of a computer that

  can also see you right having something

  that can do that with the smarts that we

  have developed for cameras to find where

  the heck you are and you know take good

  pictures of you it is easier for a

  computer to do that than to you to try

  to do it yourself with a mirror holding

  out your phone or doing other sorts of

  stuff like that especially if we come it

  becomes in the same way that the

  Oh does like this becomes so easy just

  becomes part of my routine right

  the people who meticulously catalog

  their outfits each day that they're

  proud of their outfits that is a big

  effort that most people don't want to go

  through but it's like Marco said if

  Marco didn't have to think about but

  just went through his day and put on his

  watch and at some point his his you know

  some point 20 years in the future when

  you know his grandchildren are visiting

  and his super duper fancy smart home he

  just wakes up in the morning picks up

  watching wants to wear puts it on and

  then at the end of the month can view

  beautiful InFocus close-up shots of

  every watch he wore on every day how did

  those pictures happen because the

  cameras that are all over the house

  invisibly can always find him and take

  these amazing photographs in low-light

  perfect focus and he doesn't have to

  pose for them and he doesn't have to do

  anything in the same way that the magic

  checkout counter you know barcode

  scanner just bring the food by and you

  kind of twirl it and you know spin it by

  the little scanner and the little lasers

  will find it right in that same type of

  technology if you had a bunch of smart

  cameras in your house that eventually

  will be so cheap and so good that they

  will be able to do this without you

  having to stand in a certain place or do

  a certain thing that is the future that

  you know that this coming to the

  questions about it are all legit

  questions in terms of who owns this data

  is it okay for Amazon for us upload it

  to Amazon and for them to keep it

  forever and how is this funded if the

  hardware isn't profitable itself is

  entirely funded about as a way to sell

  us you know clothes or whatever and one

  of the security implications and how

  hackable these all these are going to be

  there's going to be terrible disasters

  in all these areas but there is no

  denying that the amount of computery

  things in our house will only increase

  with time and that it is kind of a

  ratcheting mechanism and that this first

  one aiming you know aiming to be a

  mechanization of a thing that we know

  people already love to do is very smart

  and builds on their their echo stuff as

  for the things I talk about in terms of

  Technology and privacy

  I think Amazon is probably terrible in

  them I think the security is probably

  crap I think their privacy probably

  policy is probably terrible I think if

  they're hacks people are going to get

  tons of data and people will regret

  getting these things if that ever

  happens if it doesn't Amazon its lucky

  if it does we all just regret it

  together as people

  giant archive of photographs and audio

  of you over many many years they use

  Amazon devices but even Marco famously

  paranoid is willing to take that trade

  because they do make his life better

  enough that he's you know that he's

  willing to take that risk and most

  people are not as paranoid as Marco and

  won't think twice about this if it

  actually delivers on what it what it is

  intending to do we are sponsored this

  week by betterment investing made better

  go to better slash ATP to learn

  more betterment is a smarter way to

  invest your money that by providing

  investing advice through smart

  technology automated investing in human

  advisers they've changed the industry

  but is in the same strategy the

  financial advisors use with clients who

  have millions of dollars but now they're

  available to everyone including smart

  rebalancing global diversification tax

  efficient strategies and more it's

  betterments mission is to help you

  manage and grow your investments to

  build your financial future but all with

  low fees so you lose less of your money

  along the way because if you do the math

  typical investment fees and costs really

  add up over time and betterment fees are

  a fraction of the cost of other

  financial services and betterment so

  easy to use they've won awards for their

  customer experience what have you ever

  heard that about a financial institution

  before I never have before you can log

  into a demo account right from the

  website if you're curious to see for


  now for a limited time offer sign up for

  betterment you may qualify for a free

  canary home security system to help

  secure your home that sounds pretty cool

  so anyway terms and conditions do apply

  and investing involves risk to learn

  more visit betterment comm slash ATP

  that's betterment comm slash ATP

  betterment investing made better okay so

  in the last what was it 24-48 hours as

  we record Microsoft has released a

  basically a surface book err they've

  taken what basically all of us wanted

  from the new MacBook Air that we have

  yet to receive and made a surface laptop

  out of it I love that you assume that

  that the that a new MacBook Air is

  something that is coming they just isn't

  here yet

  well fair fair but um but yes so be the

  thing that we all wanted which would be

  effectively be a new

  Retina MacBook Air with better internals

  and better ports and whatnot Microsoft

  seems to have just released it so I

  think they're pre-ordering soon if

  memory serves it's it's as we record I

  don't believe it's available for

  purchase but the very little bit that

  I've looked into it it looked really

  nice yeah I mean I think it's really

  interesting first of all that the

  Microsoft Surface branding was

  originally for well first it was for the

  giant table and then it went away for a

  few years and then then it came back as

  this like you know consumer you know

  convertible laptop tablet thing and then

  it slowly became like closer to regular

  computers and now there goes like all

  right screw it here's just a laptop and

  we're gonna call the surface laptop and

  like they get they start they did all

  these crazy things and they kind of

  slowly work their way back to what most

  people actually want in their computer

  which is a traditional-style laptop and

  it does have a touch screen so bonus

  points for that I do want also point out

  like we Apple people you know we keep

  following the company line of like you

  know we shouldn't have touch screens on

  computers nobody wants that but

  meanwhile touch screens have become very

  prevalent on on PCs and most people who

  use them seem to kind of like them like

  people seem you know they might not use

  them all the time or they might not use

  them for a lot of things but people who

  use them seem to enjoy them largely so

  so I do think that is something that

  should not be totally discounted as a

  thing and maybe maybe apples right but

  it should they're sure to seem like a

  lot of people are using them anyway but

  I also think it's interesting that you

  know when when the original you know

  surface not the table but like that the

  very first like weird OBE is our tablet

  laptop thing when that first came out it

  really seemed like this really like you

  know niche low volume low selling device

  but over time Microsoft has been

  persistent and it has NS just kept

  iterating and iterating and now services

  are actually pretty common like I said I

  see them out all the time and I don't

  know if I just don't recognize most

  other PC hardware so like I don't maybe

  I don't like visually like notice that

  are counted and like whenever whenever

  like people on Twitter do like coffee

  shop surveys

  I like grouper likes to do sometimes or

  like I see some other people doing it


  like alright number of like you know

  MacBooks in this coffee shop at 10 a

  number of vino surfaces 3 number of

  iPads to stuff like that surfaces tend

  to be represented pretty well just like

  anecdotally out in the world

  there seem to be a lot of them in coffee

  shops and in airports and on planes and

  like on commuter trains stuff like that

  like so I do think that it is worth I

  hope Apple is noticing and they probably

  are they're smart over there I hope they

  are noticing that like these think these

  experiments that Microsoft has been

  doing with the surface over time seemed

  outlandish at first not only are they

  getting less outlandish over time as we

  all realize that some of those things

  are good ideas but also they're getting

  pretty popular and so I think I think

  that is that is something that that that

  we should not be ruling out and you know

  some things are popular they're terrible

  I mean Dave Matthews Band right but but

  it their popularity I think should not

  be overlooked

  and and we should not assume that

  everything about the surface and its

  line of products is Microsoft being

  weird and wacky because a lot of it's

  sticking so that's that is worth

  pointing out so this particular computer

  it looks pretty compelling for a lot of

  people I mean in a lot of ways it specs

  or lower end than the MacBook Air it can

  be it although it is much newer the

  MacBook Air still has I think like three

  generations old now

  parts something like that and and this I

  believe the Microsoft Surface laptop is

  KB Lake so it's like really current if

  the macbook air had skylake or KB Lake

  it would get way better battery life and

  it's already amazing which means they

  could do some pretty cool things but

  they're not but the other they they made

  the MacBook Pro instead and we'll talk

  about that in a minute like the escape

  but this laptop looks really good

  because when when the MacBook Air first

  came out it was like the specialized

  thing but over you know over a pretty

  short time it pretty quickly became like

  the mainstream a laptop to have and now

  it's the low-end laptop to have but it's

  still like they still sell a ton of them

  because the 13-inch MacBook Air

  especially like that form factor like

  that combination I've talked about

  before and they show like that's a

  really good sweet spot for a lot of

  people it's an incredibly compelling

  overall pack

  there's a reason why everyone has their

  has MacBook Airs

  and almost everyone who hasn't loves

  them it's no coincidence that when my

  cursor into do stuff that's a quite a

  mistake when Apple introduced the new

  MacBook Pros and and kind of made it

  clear that the MacBook Air was was on

  its way slowly out and that the new

  MacBook Air replacement was this this

  13-inch MacBook Escape that is more

  expensive and in some ways more limited

  a lot of people were very upset about

  that it's like it's like no you took

  this this formula that we liked so much

  and now you're telling us that it's over

  and you're replacing it with some of its

  more expensive and more limited so

  Microsoft comes along and says all right

  well you know what here this computer

  that you wanted here we just made it we

  made like a up to date basically version

  of a retina MacBook Air shape and size

  computer and in most ways it looks a lot

  like the MacBook Air it you know again

  like if you if you match respect respect

  it's it's is about the same price as the

  air and although newer and in it is a

  few hundred dollars cheaper than the

  MacBook Escape for similar specs again I

  think they're going to sell a lot of

  these now they aren't the first PC maker

  to make a MacBook Air clone that you

  know the PC makers are making these for

  a while largely I think one of the

  reasons why services have taken off so

  well is that PC hardware is largely

  total crap like it is really bad like

  the designs are crappy ly and they're

  cheap plastic builds and just designed

  with very poor taste you know and and

  Microsoft's designs have largely been

  pretty good like for the surface

  hardware like they've had a couple of

  you know weird little missteps here and

  there but you know so is Apple like no

  one's perfect so Microsoft actually I

  think doing pretty well here and if I

  were buying a Windows PC for some reason

  it would almost certainly be a surface

  product of some kind or I built my own

  life if it was a desktop probably but

  like let's say if I buy a PC laptop for

  some reason I would almost certainly get

  one of these I agree with you the thing

  is I obviously my career prior to my

  current job was all the Microsoft stack

  and so though I don't have any

  particular love for Microsoft in

  stal jaques sense i i have admired the

  way they've really changed themselves

  and and really kind of adjusted the way

  they operate with such a novella at the

  helm and I think they've been doing a

  really good job and have been have been

  doing really fascinating stuff for the

  San Franciscans they pivoted so anyway

  the funny thing is though you can't

  really make Microsoft lose all of its

  old bits because as I'm trying to get

  the URL for the surface laptop to put in

  the show notes I arrive at Microsoft

  Store comm slash store / MS USA / en-us

  PDP / product ID dot 5 109 100 then as I

  load that page the back the the page

  itself has been dimmed and I have a

  modal don't miss out sign up to receive

  special deals new offers and more no the

  answer is no so you can make Microsoft a

  lot better in general but you can't ever

  really make Microsoft forget that their

  Microsoft can you well but what's the

  actual name of the macbook escape i/o

  the MacBook Pro I believe it's the late

  2013 13 inch MacBook Pro without touch

  bar a fair point fair point fair point

  with deleteme in all caps at the end

  yeah so anyway but no I other than that

  I I think this looks really great I

  agree with you if I were to buy a PC it

  would either be a lenovo or very very

  likely a surface laptop or something

  like this I agree with you that

  everything I've heard from people who

  have touchscreen laptops they swear by

  them I think that seems really kooky but

  it's probably one of those things that I

  just haven't tried it and so I don't get

  it and certainly for iOS simulator that

  would be super helpful so in that sense

  I do get it but I do like that there are

  different colors available I don't

  recall what colors there are but there's

  certainly several shades that you can

  get them in which is really kind of

  stupid but I like it and I think that's

  kind of neat Apple look Apple sells like

  you know that the pink gold and dark

  gray 12-inch MacBook that's yeah that's

  fine like that there's nothing wrong

  with a little bit of color in your life

  tech people mean it's fine color is nice

  although here again like the marketing

  copy is is pratap purpose

  the here again the marketing copy is

  preposterous if you look at the the

  bullets undersurface laptop luxurious

  alla contra fabric-covered keyboard is

  bullet number two wait come on I mean in

  that Apple has their moment still get me

  wrong Apple is not innocent in this

  department but luxurious all account all

  contra fabric-covered keyboard really

  guys I'm glad you can't pronounce that

  word either just by reading in a car

  magazines for the past several decades

  so that was uh Kintaro i don't know you

  never have to say it out loud when it's

  in car magazines and all of a sudden

  you're faced with this word you got to

  do a disable the time al-qantara there

  we go it's like gazelle any case john

  what do you think about this so so the

  the narrative for this is like Marco

  said Oh Apple wouldn't make this laptop

  this is the retina MacBook Air that we

  have all wanted but as Marco already

  pointed out it's not like there haven't

  been a million pcs that the are similar

  they're like small thin used the MacBook

  Air class a processor but are newer and

  have a Retina screen and so on and so

  forth um for this computer specifically

  though this is not the retina MacBook

  Air that I would want assuming it ran

  Mac OS and not just because it's got a

  fuzzy top which is kind of weird and I

  think we get kind of gross this if Apple

  made this computer I would right now be

  complaining about the ports and the RAM

  four gigabytes RAM that you shouldn't

  even offer a computer with that much is

  stupid don't do that and the ports one

  big USB one mini DisplayPort thingy

  headphone like no USB see that's not a

  modern computer like I'm not saying you

  have to have all the ports in the world

  but especially if you're going to be a

  PC like provide me utility the utility

  with Apple won't add would be you know

  like it what this thing has except for

  USB see instead of playing USB maybe

  thrown one regular us because it's not

  like there's not room like this is not a

  MacBook sighs SuperDuper skinny thing

  it's big enough that you could fit some

  more ports on there and if I'm looking

  for anything into the PC is to do the

  port stuff that Apple won't do so give

  me my ports put some USB C on there put

  one regular USB put an SD card slot

  don't give me one big USB and one mini

  DisplayPort and that's it like I feel

  like it is RAM starve and

  Gort slim and form-factor wise if I'm

  going to buy into the surface brand no

  this is just like this is a service

  laptop like they do have a touchscreen

  on it but just like they do on the

  surface book and everything but those

  can sort of transform into tablet II

  things where all of a sudden the

  touchscreen is much more viable not

  saying you don't want to have a

  touchscreen because they should they

  should leverage the advantage they have

  which is they have created an OS that is

  touch accessible right that's the whole

  thing that they've done it's one

  combined OS that it is usable with your

  finger you're not you know in theory the

  interface that is on the screen has some

  chance of being used by your big you

  know 44-point in apple parlance

  fingertip surface right and that's what

  they're telling people to make make an

  application that is usable in that way

  we'll make controls and buttons and

  widgets and things that are usable in

  that way Mac OS is not like that so one

  of the advantages that that Microsoft

  has when it comes to directly competing

  against the Mac not iOS but the Mac is

  that they have an interface that is

  available for touch but touch on a plain

  old upright laptop screen like this

  you're right the PCs have been doing it

  forever and you're right that people do

  like it because they can touch the

  screen but I think Apple is also right

  that did it is a it is not a great

  experience so I don't say there's a

  reason they shouldn't have put touch in

  here but I wouldn't chalk it up as much

  of an advantage it's more of a well we

  can do it anyway and we got to do it but

  it makes me wish almost that this was a

  straight-up laptop but the hinge went

  all the way around and you could just

  bend it back on itself right you know

  the convertibles that they made a

  million different varieties of if it's

  not gonna I can get on board with them

  not disconnecting it but if it's going

  to be a touchscreen what if there is

  some application that I really want to

  use a touchscreen with it is extremely

  awkward to use a very touch-centric

  interface when you're when it's in a

  laptop configuration so I put that down

  mostly as a neutral and then so that I'm

  just like a left with a laptop that is

  kind of middle-of-the-road kind of

  strange not a good complement of ports

  in the low-end model has terrible specs

  so I'm not impressed with it as a laptop

  but I but I do agree that Microsoft has

  been been trying everything that you can

  safely try and that they are putting in

  the work to make an operating system

  that embodies their vision

  how computing how a single operating

  system can span multiple form factors

  and all that other good stuff styling

  wise the FIR aside or the fuzzy fabric

  aside I still think Microsoft Surface

  and pcs in general are sticking too

  closely to the Apple

  design formula like they have their own

  twist they have their own colors you

  know fabric and the weird hinge no stuff

  like that but Apple has so dominated the

  aesthetic for laptops basically from the

  PowerBook days when they defined the

  current shape of laptop keyboard goes

  their pointing device goes here screen

  goes there it took a while for PC to get

  onboard with that but that defined it in

  the same way that the iPhone defined the

  smartphone form factor and when Apple

  came out with the modern MacBook lines

  with the big flat square key caps and

  this little perfect rectangle the Johnny

  I've loves in the big touchpad and like

  all the quote-unquote high-end PC

  laptops have been following along with

  that aesthetic as if it is the one and

  only true way to make laptops and I

  don't think it is there are there are

  there is variety out there and a lot of

  that variety is ugly if you like glad

  Microsoft is sticking with of the Apple

  design school because it looks good and

  it does but it also doesn't allow them

  to stand out very often speaking of

  coffee shop surveys I'm in a coffee shop

  and I have to squint to make sure I can

  make out from the front is that a

  MacBook Air or is it you know it's

  easier from the back because you can see

  the little Windows logo which is you

  know better than the old windows logo

  but whatever anyway

  Apple says that you have to have your

  company logo dead center in the back of

  your screen so that's what they do but

  from the front it's like it you could

  mistake it for a MacBook Air and I think

  that is leaving money on the table style

  wise that I believe there can be a

  different aesthetic that they could be

  pursuing instead of what they're

  currently doing which is like Apple

  style but with a twist

  so I'm not particularly impressed by

  this product I was much more impressed

  by the surface studio Pro and I but all

  these products all Microsoft hardware

  products and even you know to some

  degree the software products reveal real

  gaps in Apple's lineup I'm not going to

  say that necessarily weaknesses but they

  reveal gaps like their operating system

  reveals the fact that there you know the

  things fall through the gaps between iOS


  whether one OS to us is the right

  strategy either way it shows gaps and

  all these variety of surface books and

  service to do reveal gaps in Apple's

  lineup in it like if you want a really

  big touchscreen that runs Pro Apps the

  biggest you can go on Apple is 12.5 inch

  of un if you want to know s that's touch

  accessible that's iOS you know and like

  there's this big gap between pro

  hardware that in theory is coming to the

  max soon and and touch OS and Apple has

  separated those two from each other

  whereas Microsoft has a combined OS and

  a combined hardware strategy so I find

  that the most interesting thing about

  the surface efforts and I suppose it's

  interesting that they're extending the

  brain to a plain old laptop but this

  plain old laptop isn't it does not seem

  to be a particularly compelling product

  beyond the fact that it is a surface

  branded laptop but I I applaud Microsoft

  for taking the surface hardware and

  software brand

  and extending it outwards and hopefully

  they have some success we haven't even

  talked about Windows 10 s I don't know

  if we have time for it but that is a

  whole other aspect of this we'll get to

  the head but also and I think this ties

  into that to keep in mind like as you

  criticize this laptops you know

  mediocrity in certain areas

  it's a low-end product like it this is

  this is a value product you know in the

  world of pcs it's probably mid to low

  end Mac it's a high end PC a low end PC

  laptop is 180 bucks yeah that's true it

  is it's a mid-range piece of that but

  but it's you know because and you know

  use of those kind of mid-range parts and

  everything it's it's pretty small case

  and everything's anyway this is a value

  product and it's competing against

  Apple's value products and it is

  interesting to see like the two very

  different ways that Microsoft and Apple

  are tackling this problem you know Apple

  is largely addressing the very old an

  updated MacBook Air towards the same

  market I mean some of the people we push

  up into a new method Pro but but I think

  a lot of people liking this is aimed at

  things like schools bait you know

  businesses college students like people

  who need either a lot of computers at

  blows profit price like a school or like

  people who like people who are buying a

  computer need a lot of value and can't

  spend a lot more so things like how

  people like college students things of

  that and you know the MacBook Air is

  owned very buff these people but you

  know Apple is basically just telling

  them to just keep buying really old


  and Microsoft is showing them a new

  option and I don't think Apple really

  has a direct answer to this they mean I

  guess technically Apple's answer is

  spend more for one of our new computers

  or tolerate one of our old ones but I

  really I think the MacBook Air is is

  kind of an embarrassment right now

  because it's not like this is some like

  you know you know narrow little product

  that they don't sell many of they sell

  tons of them and so it makes me kind of

  sad for Apple that they are happy to

  sell so many of an ancient product that

  they have refused to update out of what

  seems like a combination of laziness and

  greed because they're making good money

  on it so why update it that's that's a

  crappy reason you know but that seems to

  be the reason they're using and the new

  MacBook Pro will eventually I assume

  we'll eventually get lower in price and

  eventually will and eventually the

  12-inch and the the escape line will

  replace the MacBook Air but it doesn't

  seem like that's happening soon it

  seemed like that might be like still

  like maybe maybe three years out or

  something like that

  so for this time are they just gonna

  keep selling this ancient MacBook Air

  while things like this are coming out

  from the PC industry and and kind of

  embarrassing it like that I don't I

  don't think I like that strategy don't

  we have like five years before they have

  a special meeting to talk about the

  MacBook Air campuses they invite us like

  you know saying we know we haven't

  updated the MacBook Air in four years

  and people wonder if we're going to

  discontinue it but we've just decided

  last week that we're going to make a new

  MacBook Air and I won't be out this year

  but we are going to rethink the MacBook

  we've heard you that you want the

  MacBook Air like yeah right yeah it's

  the specific Microsoft Surface thing

  like PC laptops have been embarrassing

  the air for a long time it's not just

  this one like oh they finally made it

  like like I said like there's been tons

  of pcs that use the Mac by our class of

  chip but they actually stay updated of

  varying degrees of build quality and

  style so maybe the Microsoft one is

  notable in that they have a good

  reputation for Hardware build quality

  and if you like the style like that's

  fine but yeah I mean it's that's it's

  revealing gaps in Apple's lineup like

  that that Apple wanted the Mac the

  combination of the new Mac

  book and the new MacBook Pros to span

  the same rage that the old combination

  of the errors plus the pros plus the

  weird MacBook II thing in the middle

  span and it does kind of span the same

  range of gaps in different places but

  because of the way they're priced and

  the way their capabilities spread it

  ends up being less satisfying and and

  the air still is very pop I don't know

  if I mentioned this about my UK trip but

  I did it I did a because I was actually

  in a Starbucks I think the first time in

  my entire life big because my wife went

  in there to get a drink and I came in

  with her um and I did a laptop count

  just because I was you know I glanced

  around and I was stunned at what I saw

  what I saw was like I think it was like

  eight MacBook Airs

  one HP laptop and one MacBook Pro yeah I

  was like MacBook Airs like what's going

  on talk to some people in the UK and

  they said Oh schools buy them a lot like

  when you go to school you get a lot of

  stuff and they all buy MacBook Airs

  so like are these people going to mean

  are these all old MacBook Airs they got

  as hand-me-downs are people going to

  Apple stores and continuing to buy

  MacBook Airs yes they are but yeah I

  mean I don't know I mean if you look at

  the ASP s of the I was thinking this

  when you say oh the MacBook Pro prices

  will come down like Nautilus ASP stay up

  because the new MacBook Pros that are

  all super you know more expensive than

  their old models tremendously increased

  revenues and average selling price for

  Apple so because I get pent-up demand

  right or whatever but I'm not so sure

  that they're going to be in a big darn

  hurry to lower the price and honestly

  I'm okay with Apple jacking up the price

  on its top end models as long as the top

  end models like justify that price not

  linearly obviously where it's like is

  this $500 better no of course it's not

  gonna be calling dollars better but if

  anything you're going to fleece people

  on make it the super duper high end ones

  if they actually introduced a MacBook

  Air replacement sort of a worthy MacBook

  Air replacement that fills that same

  role like has the same trade-offs of

  battery life screen size and ports and

  capability as the old MacBook Air but

  has all updated internals and is retina

  if they ever made such a machine I mean

  that can lower their ISPs but I think it

  would sell like hotcakes and honestly I

  feel like I don't made the joke about

  the whole Mac Mac Pro meeting like oh

  we've decided we're going to do this I

  feel like that decision

  is inevitable because it seems like the

  range of capabilities in Apple's limited

  range from the SuperDuper skinny MacBook

  to the much more expensive pros that

  doesn't seem to be the right

  distribution of price points and

  capabilities to satisfy the market right

  whereas the air has proven itself to be

  a you know and not the first air because

  the first there was a crappy mix right

  but like the 2011 and on air like that

  was a really great sweet spot for our

  capability size and price uh and I think

  Apple has proven with their experiment

  that the SuperDuper skinny one like it's

  a little bit too far down the capability

  ladder like it's sacrifice too much

  capability for other stuff they just by

  all means keep it because you should

  have a model it's like the lightest

  possible thing perhaps awesome for that

  right but it doesn't it you know

  whatever the curve looks like of demand

  for laptop sizes and capabilities that

  one is also towards the edge so I think

  Apple will eventually coming around come

  around to making a machine that has this

  the balance of the MacBook Air does have

  to be the same exact size and shape as

  the MacBook Air because things change

  and USBC is smaller and so on and so

  forth and whether that's because the the

  MacBook evolved or they introduced a new

  model in the middle or the 13-inch

  MacBook Pro as marcos talked about so

  many times eventually shrinks down to

  the point where it basically is a

  MacBook Air but that hasn't happened yet

  and so looking over at the PC side of

  the windows side of things and seeing

  all these MacBook Air equivalents seeing

  how popular you know again coffee coffee

  shop surveys a lot of the pcs that I see

  are macbook air resize form factor that

  i see less of the giant battleships that

  you still see in corporate environments

  and i see more of the you know HP Lenovo

  MacBook Air II sized machines

  so hopefully Apple will get on that in

  you know t-minus two and a half years

  yeah cuz that's the thing like it that's

  what I'm seeing like the strategy what

  they're doing but they seem to be doing

  now which is basically like just never

  update the air and just keep selling it

  until the other ones come down in price

  I don't think that necessarily works

  unless there's other changes in mind

  because like what you said like the the


  assume that comes down in price and

  becomes a new entry that's kind of not

  good enough to replace the MacBook Air

  like it is it is so much of a compromise

  and so many more air

  as it you know it has way fewer ports

  and things it is way slower than MacBook

  Air in a lot of things it is it gets

  worse battery life by a good amount and

  and though you know it will presume to

  improve over time like maybe maybe the

  second generation 12-inch MacBook

  whenever that comes out maybe that one

  will be a better air replacement but the

  current one really isn't I mean maybe

  the answer is that the 13-inch MacBook

  Escape ends up going down in price

  eventually or it has a very low in

  configuration but the problem is like

  the the base model is already a pretty a

  pretty low-end model for Apple standards

  for you know for the connected service

  book it's kind of mid-range to high-end

  but so so again like I'm I'm not

  entirely sure that strategy makes sense

  but it seems like Apple is doing a

  pretty poor job addressing what is

  probably by far their most popular model

  of laptop like that seems weird to me

  although that that being said looking at

  the surface laptop if you had if you

  were buying one of these things which of

  these four colors would you guys I saw

  the video the colors looked okay in the

  video now I'm seeing this page like all

  four of these colors look hideous to me

  they all look like cubicle walls as the

  texture is the problem not the color I

  think either one of the the two gray is

  the darker grey is a lighter gray

  they're fine but I'm I'm not on board

  with with the texture thing both because

  I think it'll get dirty and gross and

  it'll be harder to clean and also

  because the edge treatment like when the

  fabric runs to the edge and you know

  joins up with the metal that's just

  asking for it to fray the last thing I

  want is a frayed laptop that's not an

  aesthetic I like I can imagine people

  finding attractive right but I'm not I'm

  not into that word I I don't know I it's

  hard to say I on the configurator the

  the colors are in the image is just

  microscopic and it's very hard to say I

  would probably take a look at the cobalt

  blue but it all likelihood end up with

  the boring platinum

  yeah the cause of the cause I read and

  you're right that their website like the

  you know you just made fun of their

  website for a while before but like

  if you have beautiful hardware like they

  made the really cool intro video

  I think Gruber linked to and I hope all

  the people that it shows like I'll you

  know it looked like an Apple video

  showing how beautiful all the parts are

  even on the inside and how they all

  assemble and fly together we've seen

  stuff from like Apple like but then if

  you go to their website Apple the entire

  page would you just be like incredibly

  close-up high-resolution beautifully

  shot photographs slash renders of their

  hardware right whereas here we're

  squinting at these little blurry JPEGs

  we can't even you know I was trying to

  look for a picture to show me all the

  ports Apple would have a shot that's

  like the ports fill your entire screen

  and they're impossibly clean because

  they're probably computer renders and

  here it's like I can't even get a shot

  where I can make out what the ports are

  on the side the color picker changes the

  color on this one inch by one inch

  postage stamp is off you are not you're

  not selling your hardware you got look

  good looking hardware you have to show

  it off we want to see it want to see it

  up close alas that's Microsoft's I will

  say also the MacBook escape the the late

  2016 13 inch MacBook Pro without touch

  bar two ports that it continues to

  impress me as a machine like and and you

  know when at when Phil Schiller onstage

  and talked about it during the

  introduction he did say something on the

  lines of like this is kind of the new

  MacBook Air and even though it starts at

  $1500 and has few reports and things I

  think that is largely correct I hope in

  in the whatever the next version of the

  MacBook Escape is you know presumably

  meant you know maybe this fall or next

  spring whenever new MacBook Pros come

  out I hope they make a few changes that

  will make that more correct that will

  make this more of a MacBook Air

  replacement I think for me like having

  used this thing now I I missed the SD

  card slot I I will not accept any

  argument that that's the past because it

  simply is not true you can argue with me

  all you want about legacy ports but the

  SD card is not a legacy port it is

  something else and it is still necessary

  for lots of people oh I could not

  disagree with you more cool so I would

  say bring back bring back the SD card

  reader and I would also really like one

  more USB port I don't

  whether it's C or a most of the

  computers like in this class before

  you've been able to have them plugged in

  and you'll be able to plug in two

  devices to them and you can't do that

  with this without using hubs and stuff

  and every USB C hub that's out there in

  the world right now is a total piece of

  garbage and the MacBook one has been out

  for what two years now something like

  that and they're still all garbage you

  know like this is similar it's a similar

  problem of a lot of like hubs and things

  like hubs that you know eventually I

  mean it took me something like three

  years to find a decent USB 3 hub that

  didn't disconnect constantly and cause

  problems like every USB C hub out there

  is a total piece of garbage and the fact

  is what if I don't want to buy a USB C

  hub what or what if I what if I don't

  want to buy apples like $75 thing or

  whatever it is like the like that's just

  more additional cost for people who are

  buying this thing to do something fairly

  basic I really would love one additional

  USB port and an SD card reader and if

  that if that happens to come with them

  also maybe dropping the price by a

  couple hundred bucks on the entry on the

  entry point so that it makes it more map

  lakea range I think that would help a

  lot and then make it a little bit

  thinner and you've got to write in my

  book Eric no it does need to be thinner

  it's already thinner than the MacBook

  Air like it is it is it like physically

  in so many ways it's great like it

  really is really nice it's not that it's

  not thinner than macbook air and all

  dimensions like it doesn't do the taper

  which again I said is a great idea for

  not doing the taper because you can get

  tons more battery life but it doesn't

  change the fact of how how it feels in

  your hands and how it fits into your

  like backpack or whatever like the taper

  was there for a reason for like a

  perception reason and that perception is

  a real thing no I'm telling you I

  disagree very strongly on the physical

  side to me physically this is a MacBook

  Air like it this is it is exactly the

  right size and and feels exactly the

  right in the hand you may feel like it's

  the right size but it feels chunkier

  than the air I I disagree I can just go

  get an air and just like it just does

  because it doesn't have the thin end

  that's that's the perception angle that

  I'm talking about like I'm not saying

  the thin end is the right choice because

  I think the right choice is for right

  now for it to be thicker but you're

  saying like in the future eventually

  like I said the question is does the

  fanless macbook expand its capabilities

  to fill in the the role of the air or do

  the 13-inch MacBook Pro slimmed down

  essentially to become to come to the map

  okay and lower its price to come to the

  MacBook Air from above and I agree that

  it's probably more likely that

  eventually the 13-inch MacBook Pro if

  not in price in all other ways will fill

  that same role but I I disagree that

  right now that fit form factor wise did

  it feel the same as it just doesn't we

  have them at work and pick them up and

  it's just not it's just not like that

  actually we don't have them alert the

  important people who have their own

  machines that work out that work sorry

  so excited like the work if that you

  know this is my personal machine do we

  want to we are running long but we want

  to talk about the Windows 10s or

  whatever it's called I mean we can I

  think this is a quick one so Windows 10s

  is the cut down in terms of pricing

  version of Windows that you can get with

  these laptops that wants you to get all

  the applications from Microsoft's

  version of the app store and you know

  it's a model we're all familiar with

  Microsoft has been pushing real hard on

  the App Store model thus far they have

  not been as successful as Apple but in

  theory brings all the same benefits of a

  controlled selection of software that's

  approved by Microsoft that conforms to

  presumably better conforms to the ideals

  that Microsoft wants it to conform to

  and that Microsoft gets you know you

  know the control of how the money flows

  and yadda yadda yadda the interesting

  thing about Microsoft 10s is that if you

  want to get applications from someplace

  other than the Microsoft App Store I

  don't know what they call it keeps the

  App Store you can pay them in additional

  50 bucks

  and now you can load programs from

  anywhere which is probably making a long

  time PC windows people freak out because

  this is hell like a lockdown PC that I

  have to pay money to put stuff on that's

  terrible don't worry guys you'll be able

  to hack it all that stuff is cracked

  anyway it's an interesting business

  model trying to have your cake and eat

  it to where it's like well we want to

  give people the capability of using it

  as a regular PC but we actually want to

  discourage that so we can discourage it

  and by the way we can make our cheap

  models cheaper by you know presumably

  Microsoft is reducing whatever its

  license fee is by saying if you if you

  use Windows 10s you to have new PC

  manufacturer won't have to pay us quite


  much for the windows license because we

  hope we're going to make some more by

  selling apps through our store but as

  Gruber pointed out this is kind of a

  weird pitch for people that like you

  have to pay money to are you paying

  money to make your thing better or are

  you're paying or is it just there as a

  deterrent to try to encourage people to

  use the app star and the Microsoft star

  is pretty grim and like doesn't have the

  apps that you want in it so does

  everybody just have to pay that fee I

  don't know like many things they do in

  the Microsoft in modern Microsoft

  service world it's like I don't know

  let's try this and you know they don't

  have too much to lose it's not like

  they're the Microsoft app star is is

  setting the world ablaze so if this is

  what takes to encourage more people to

  get into the Microsoft app store to say

  you know if they sell a lot of these and

  they can say hey look at all these

  customers the only place they can buy

  stores is through the Microsoft Store

  that's why you software developers

  should put your stuff in the Microsoft

  Store but you know good luck getting the

  big names in there the same reason Apple

  couldn't get them in Microsoft's gonna

  have trouble I'm getting with the store

  and then it just ends up being as a

  weird free version of Windows that you

  can pay $50 to unlock and presumably to

  remove all the weird ads that are

  apparently windows these days yeah this

  this whole thing is kind of a weird

  segmentation thing I mean it is

  obviously like this effort to create

  like a low-end Windows but like Windows

  RT was you know kind of a more severe

  version of that and that didn't do so

  well I don't I really don't see

  Microsoft customers being a big fan of

  this it doesn't seem like the thing that

  that deserves a 50 dollar charge it

  seems to me to be like the gatekeeper

  switch in Oster Mac Mac OS where you

  just kind of say yes I understand the

  risks I'm good with it just let me let

  me side load whatever I want yeah that

  was a group is analogy to and it's like

  it doesn't feel good

  - it feels like a ransom it's like

  unlock the full capability to proceed

  but that's just from our perspective

  because we're like oh we just expect to

  be able to load any software we want on

  our PCs and of course from our

  perspective and the the walled garden of

  apples like we would gladly pay 50 bucks

  to be able to sideload arbitrary

  applications onto our iPhones or at

  least that was I think ever all the

  geeks would have agreed on that many

  years ago these days people make less of

  a fuss about that but I think it still

  exists for all sorts of applications

  that Apple doesn't allow on the App


  potentially be useful so on and so forth

  but trying to bring that to the windows

  world I don't know what kind of demand

  is there for that and I'm not sure how

  much power Microsoft has even with its

  own within its own ecosystem to make

  that happen

  Apple obviously took the easy way out

  and said we're introducing a new

  platform this how it is from day one

  right so then it's like it is what it is

  and guess what that platform was wildly

  successful so they made it happen but

  trying to retro actively apply that to a

  platform that is previously opened Apple

  and it's on its own little private world

  of the Mac has had much difficulty doing

  that you know with Mac App Store in

  sandboxing and major applications that

  we they're nether in the store Mac App

  Store are left the the Mac App Store and

  I think Microsoft's can have an even

  harder time fit but I think mainly the

  main innovation here seems to me as a

  way that Microsoft can allow even

  cheaper windows-based computers while

  still hopefully not losing that much

  money on them like giving Windows

  licenses you know lowering the price of

  Windows licenses so for computers that

  are incredibly cheap and hoping they're

  going to make it up with the App Store

  purchase I don't think the math will

  work out for them but it's interesting

  strategy and from users perspective I

  think Windows users are just used to buy

  now the business model of Windows and

  how many different versions there aren't

  how much they cost them what you really

  have to pay and what they're capable of

  doing being a confusing mess and so you

  know this is par for the course thanks

  much for our sponsors this week Kasper

  betterment and endo Chino and we will

  see you next week now the show is over

  they didn't even mean to be

  as it was accidental oh it was

  accidental John didn't do any research

  Marco and Casey wouldn't let him cuz it

  was accidental it was accidental and you

  can find the show notes at ATP dot F M

  and if you're into Twitter you can

  follow them at CAS II WA L is s so

  that's Casey Liz and a are Co AR m

  auntie Marco Arment si R Casey

  USA Syracuse

  I have some thoughts about the switch oh

  it's okay it'll be fairly quick this

  week or oh really last week Mario Kart 8

  deluxe came out this is the first Mario

  Kart that I have played since Mario Kart

  for the Wii and uh it came out on Friday

  I got my copy on Friday on Monday I had

  already arranged with a few co-workers

  at work who also have switches we were

  all going to bring our consoles in and

  our copies of Mario Kart in play over

  lunch and so there were six of us

  gathered around kind of a bar if you

  will at work playing local multiplayer

  against each other and with each other

  on Mario Kart 8 and it was unbelievably

  fun and cool and a miracle that HR

  didn't come down and yell at us for the

  language that we were all using as we

  were saw as we were hollering at each

  other - you know effectively go die in a

  fire but with much more colorful words

  than that it was unbelievably fun just

  like Apple it well felt like Apple used

  to be anyway it just worked and it was

  great and and I had just an unbelievable

  an unbelievable amount of fun in a way

  that I haven't since I did like land

  parties when I was in high school or

  college or no modem cable parties when I

  was a grade schooler and this is a

  constant this is the first console that

  I am aware of where that sort of thing

  can happen in person really really

  easily and without six associated TVs as

  well I just thought it was extremely

  cool yes well actually yes I'm aware

  that the original Gameboy had like four

  player games and things like that I but

  you know what I mean where six people

  show up with no cables whatsoever and

  just start playing a game together it

  was awesome and tremendously fun and if

  you happen to know a couple of people or

  even better a handful of people who all

  have all have switches and all have

  Mario Kart or maybe an equivalent game I

  cannot recommend it enough

  is so much fun have you done any of this

  yet John I look for you online America

  this weekend but you weren't around yeah

  up and I mean I'm like I've played all

  these tracks and done all these things

  already but I played it to just see that

  the new frame rate and the high-res

  graphics and the new features of the

  game what game was it again marikar date

  Oh what was it again you're trying to

  get me say Mary over and over again so

  you can sound bored me and still marikar

  date deluxe America a deluxe indeed

  oh yeah and to try out the new the few

  new features they added with the double

  item boxes in the pink sparks and the

  dreaded auto steer thing which you must

  disable because it's terrible well it's

  terrible for me it is good for the

  people who it's intended for I would

  have loved to have the speaking of the

  auto drive thing it's not Auto Drive

  it's preventing you from going off the

  edge of the of the map and I used to try

  to play Mario Kart with my kids probably

  before they were quite old enough to be

  able to do it and it was very

  frustrating for them because they you

  know they couldn't stay on the course

  right I think they would have had more

  fun with this version which has Auto

  accelerate so you don't have to hold on

  a and also they can drive all over the

  course however they want they just can't

  go off the edge it'll just as if there

  are guardrails on the entire track and

  that would really help them you know be

  guided along but if you are an

  experienced merit car player you don't

  want this feature on because if you

  barely get close to or touch the edge

  and you weren't going to go off the edge

  but you just happen to touch it it slows

  you down tremendously it's like you know

  it's like sandpaper so I would encourage

  everyone to turn this feature off if

  you're going for good lap times or

  trying to compete in 200cc or whatever

  you can't turn it off from the main

  interface you have to actually start the

  race and then once the race is started

  go to the options screen then you can

  turn it off and I'm pretty sure that

  setting persists between launches the

  game once you have turned it off now the

  thing though with this is that it's very

  different than playing online against

  each other because we go when you're

  playing online against each other you

  can't unless you have like a phone line

  open you can't really yell and scream at

  each other like you can when you're

  face-to-face and you can't see you know

  the people who are steering their

  switches even though they're not using

  tilt controls their steering their

  switches like steering wheels because

  they can't help themselves you

  you can't see that just don't just

  delightfully taste just delicious

  frustration when you nail the person

  first place with a blue shell you can't

  see all that online and and so although

  the online play is also very good and

  also generally just works it is just

  magnificent to have a big group all in

  person so if we do a podcast or family

  New Year's again this year I print will

  pretty much demand everyone bring their

  switches in Mario Kart because it is

  extremely fun also I noticed buried deep

  within Nintendo's Mario Kart site and I

  will not put a link in the show notes

  because I will forget I'm too lazy to

  find it you can actually play 12 player

  local Mario Kart over Ethernet only

  which I didn't even realize was the

  thing so you would have an Ethernet port

  no that's the thing you would have to

  get 12 USB Ethernet adapters and a

  router and 12 TVs because you have to be

  docked to do it but you could play 12

  player Mario Kart in a LAN party

  scenario that sounds like an incredibly

  ridiculous manner setup but that sounds


  how fun would that be that would be so

  much fun yeah

  but it to go back a sec John you were

  saying you were looking for me over the

  weekend didn't see me what are the

  complaints I do have about the online

  set up with the switch and maybe it's

  user ignorance so maybe maybe I'm dead

  wrong about this but I don't see any way

  where you can like notify somebody else

  I would like to play this game with you

  you can say in Mario Kart that you're

  looking for a friend that's online and

  you can start a room that's intended or

  I guess maybe the only two people that

  can that can go into that room or say me

  and you but there is no mechanism that

  I'm aware of where you can like ping or

  notify a person so let's say I'm playing

  Mario Kart I'm actively playing Mario

  Kart and John starts up his switch and

  sees me online and says oh I'd like to

  play KC I don't think I am ever notified

  play KC I don't think I am ever notified

  that you are asking to play with me

  which is a real bummer because then you

  have to like go to some other device to

  orchestrate the thing and then back to

  the switch to actually play and I feel

  like that's a real shortfall which

  really bummed me out but other than that

  it's worked really well now that being

  said yesterday we also did a group game

  this time with seven players and I don't

  know if it was because was over lunch we

  were standing relatively close to

  microwaves which is the same story it

  was on Monday but but either way the

  local land was not working well at all

  and the online multiplayer actually

  worked pretty much flawlessly so even

  though we were all sitting within at

  most you know 10 feet of each other and

  even when we moved away from the

  microwaves it still just didn't work for

  beings for some reason but once we all

  went online it actually worked great but

  so much fun to have it in person and one

  of the things that appealed to me about

  the switch which I think I've mentioned

  you know last week or the week before

  was this was that intro video where they

  showed like all the switches all in a

  circle and they were all playing like

  basketball or maybe a splatoon or

  something like that against each other

  and I thought man that looks so much

  like so much fun and you know what oh my

  goodness it's so much fun so John you

  really need to try that out or you know

  if one of your kids if their friends all

  if switches and they they do a slumber

  party or something you should just be

  that creepy old dad that invites himself

  to play along because it is super duper

  fun yeah organ ohmic issues though with

  using the switch handheld which I have

  tried a few times with Sony people

  raving about it but that's just for me

  personally it's time I always prefer to

  have a doc didn't use a controller and

  sit on the couch and look at the big TV

  and unlike with the Wii U where I

  actually thought I did it a little bit

  better with you playing on the gamepad

  maybe because of lag or whatever like

  the Wii U gamepad is way better for me

  ergonomically than the little tiny

  switch just too small and to you know I

  do worse when I race with it in that way

  than I do on the TV so I've been I've

  been playing America mostly on the TV

  and if I had to do like a land part I

  think it's nice that we go be in person

  and do the things but I would prefer to

  be in a scenario where the ridiculous

  scenario where there are 12 televisions

  and Ethernet things because that's the

  way I preferred

  play the game I mean I suppose you still

  have fun playing it playing it not at

  peak level with me trying to play at the

  handheld thing and doing terribly badly

  but uh yeah I'm and going back to it I

  was surprised that I felt like oh I

  haven't played Bearcat Aiden so long I'm

  gonna fire this game up and I'm just

  gonna see how awful I am but I still had

  it like I went directly to 200 CC which

  I had unlocked in the Wii U version

  already and I just pulled off a bunch of

  courses and I was doing pretty well like

  plus or minus the insanity of

  rubber-banding and item bombardment did

  you get in 200cc with the incredible

  cheating computer players I did okay

  except for a couple the tracks that were

  in like I guess I ran the most recent

  DLC that I'd only done a little bit I

  realized I just don't know those courses

  but I tend not to like the SNES tracks

  anyway it was a monster I mean like they

  were good on SNES but I you know I

  prefer the other tracks that are more

  dynamic that are you know ports room

  like GameCube and the credit ones

  directly so I had fun I don't know if

  I'm going to go through and like

  three-star everything like I did on the

  Wii U one because I find that incredibly

  frustrating at the upper levels because

  three starring at 200 CC will literally

  drive you mad if you have if you do not

  have much better skills than I do

  because I can do it but it takes me a

  long time and it's incredibly

  frustrating that the three-star because

  it doesn't mean just that you come in

  first at the end of the thing that means

  you basically come in first in every

  race except for one like this there's

  very little more or maybe as all of them

  there's very little margin of error and

  in 200cc in a world of Mario Kart it

  seems to me that almost no amount of

  driving skill can protect you from an

  unfortunate series of events that leads

  you to after an entire Grand Prix

  getting blown up ten feet from the

  finish line and watching one person zip

  by you and then oh sorry you didn't get

  three stars it's rough world out there

  America I go I go I went back to Zelda

  to relax I played a bunch of America I'm

  like I need to win I need to relax

  back to Zelda where I've already beaten

  the game I'm just like you know doing

  the fun side quests and furnishing my

  home and doing all sorts of exciting

  things and that was those much better

  you know it's funny you bring up Zelda

  again because um I found that since I've


  Mario Kart 8 deluxe I am far less less

  likely to play Zelda not because I don't

  enjoy it just as much not because it's

  not and by pretty much any measure a

  better game but because with Mario Kart

  I can pick it up for like a three-minute

  or 10 minute you know round and just

  kind of play for a few minutes put it

  back down whereas for me anyway with

  Zelda I have to be like concentrating

  and paying attention and thinking about

  things and and I understand that I'm a

  noob and maybe other people like you

  John that a played Zelda for forever and

  a day don't have to concentrate as much

  but for me it's a much more deliberate

  act and so I found myself playing a lot

  more mario cards than zelda since friday

  even though in many ways I enjoy Zelda

  more and in many ways I do think it is

  more relaxing or at least a slower pace

  if nothing else

  I think the Celt is one of the games

  that is the easiest to pick up and do

  something one of these elves is perhaps

  ever two who have a tiny short gaming

  session because you'll pick up and like

  there are so many things that you can

  choose to do within two or three minutes

  you don't have to go and do a shrine or

  advance the story you can just pick a

  point on the map and you know fast

  travel there or like pick a point close

  by and just go to it and along the way

  you will find enemies to defeat new

  things especially if you haven't opened

  up the entire map yet and you're just

  exploring interesting things to see just

  look and say I wonder what's over there

  and go over there and when you get there

  you find out what's over there it's an

  interesting thing and you're done

  like I've when I was super duper into

  playing Zelda like when I was only like

  10 or 20 hours in it was you know

  normally we just play games on weekends

  but I was at the point where you know

  after dinner on weekdays I was like let

  me just get in five or ten minutes of

  Zelda because there was always something

  to do so you should like maybe if you're

  going into and say I need to advance the

  story I need to get closer to finishing

  the game that there is some sort of like

  oh where was I in my project my project

  of finishing this game that's exactly

  that's exactly what I run into is I lose

  my context and then it takes me like ten

  minutes just to remember where I was and

  so in a lot of that is just because I

  have a terrible memory and I and I just

  and I forget but I think you're right if

  I don't worry about

  I was actively in the midst of working

  on it probably would be a lot more


  yeah like save that for the longer

  sessions and for the shorter ones like

  just gather up some food and cook it or

  go you know beat up some bad guys and

  take their stuff or see what's over the

  other side of that hill right and then

  only if you're going to have a longer

  gaming session say okay now how am I

  going to progress what area of the Makah

  map and I going to open up and conquer

  next what story thing am I going to go

  on am I going to pick a side quest for

  my adventure log and do that once I

  quest that's for the longer sessions

  Marco you still haven't really played

  the switch at all are you still with us

  yeah I I thought Mario Cart I think

  yesterday the day before but I haven't

  made a play yet on my switch because I

  was told by TIFF that I couldn't play

  with her switch and it and I suggested

  maybe I should bring it to WDC you

  absolutely should but she'll kill you

  and then we could all play on our

  switches but then I was also informed

  what would she do that week without her

  switch and also I would ever bring mine

  why we afraid scratching the screen that

  you never look at no it's not a portable

  device to me I'm gonna bring it I need

  more I'm not even bringing I don't even

  bring laptops anymore I just bring my

  iPad and travel light I would it would

  take a lot for me to to bring the switch

  because then you had to bring all the

  stuff too you know at least the charging

  cable and I would want to bring the pro

  controller and then it's like I would

  never play it I don't bring all this

  stuff I just bring the switch and I use

  the cable for my MacBook Pro to charge

  it if I need to right exactly and it's

  actually I'm glad you brought all this

  up that brought all this back up because

  when you had said you know you only want

  to play it against the TV and you don't

  like it in handheld mode bla bla bla

  that's totally fair totally reasonable

  for what it's worth when we were set up

  at work a handful of people did bring

  their pro controllers but what I did for

  example is I because I didn't have a pro

  controller until about four hours ago I

  put it in kickstand I put the kickstand

  up and then popped out the Joye cons not

  and in my case I slid them into the

  little sheath I don't know what the term

  is for that the whole story thing so it

  was kind of like a poor-man's pro

  controller but what a couple people did

  was just hold their joy cons they just

  held them you know with their sides or

  whatever yeah I try to put them like

  that too to see how it was and like I

  think that was better than holding the

  whole thing up but then

  have the problem of what to do with

  screen if you have a table then you can

  use a little kickstand but if you're

  trying to exact on your lap then you

  have some problems oh it's still not for

  me and same thing with Zelda I also try

  playing Zelda and all these arrangements

  hand help with the joy Kahn's on and

  help with joy Kahn's off on a table I'm

  not then it's just like TV wins for me I

  have two pro controllers now I'm

  committed to the per patroller lifestyle

  fair enough

  I mean again I'm not at all trying to

  argue all I'm saying is that I think for

  a friendly and lightly competitive match

  at WWDC I really think you'd be fine

  with just having the joy Kahn's in your

  hands perhaps without the whole story

  thing and presumably we'd all be around

  a table or something like that and just

  playing in that way although I will say

  that would be a pretty fun way to pass

  the time while we're waiting both

  outside and inside

  whatever the Convention Center is called

  the Mosconi for the sake of discussion

  that would be a pretty good way to deal

  with just sitting there for hours

  just saying