The Incomparable

351: You're Right, Father--Kill All Humans

 

  [Music]

  the incomparable

  number 351 May 2017 welcome back

  everybody to the incomparable I am your

  host Jason stell I'm here this time to

  talk about another one of these this

  raft of interesting science fiction

  slash fantasy TV series that finished

  airing their seasons this spring that I

  enjoyed a lot and I want to talk to

  people about them and so what what I do

  is I have a podcast so I get to talk

  about them with people on a podcast

  instead of just in real life like most

  people so in this episode we're going to

  talk about humans a TV series that aired

  last fall actually on channel 4 in the

  UK and this spring on AMC in the u.s. we

  covered season 1 in episode 263 of the

  incomparable along with the first season

  of mr. robot actually and we're back to

  talk about season 2 of humans joining me

  to talk about it are these two fine

  gentlemen Moises Chu yan hello Jason how

  may I be of assistance

  thank you boy says it's good to have you

  here also here is he a human or not wait

  a second that's a wrong podcast it's Jon

  siracusa hello sometimes the a is upside

  down I know what is that what does that

  mean it and then it flips around is it

  like a little person going yeh with its

  arms and then it puts this arm down like

  oh or very confusing yeah they do that

  in the credits to all the a is flip

  around they're upside down maybe there's

  a maybe there's something fee Matic

  there I don't know so so humans before

  we fire off the spoiler horn and talk

  about the second season of humans I

  thought we would talk a little bit in

  general about it this show this is

  obviously the second season we did talk

  about it before the the when it

  premiered along with mr. robot the

  summer before last I always thought it

  was amusing that the show these two

  shows the show about humans is called

  mr. robot and the show about robots is

  called humans but it's not alert both

  shows are actually about humans actually

  about humans yeah turns turn out tones

  just it's amazing how that happens the

  idea here is that it's a near-future

  world that's basically like ours

  that these replicant type androids

  called synths exist they're very

  human-like in appearance which means

  they can be played by humans as actors

  but they are not sentient they are sort

  of intelligent enough to do jobs but

  they're they're kind of a just a almost

  like a slave race but they're not

  sentient they're just helpers they're in

  a human-shaped extension of technology

  but and this is the classic science

  fiction but a few of them become

  sentient and it raises all sorts of

  questions about how they interact in

  this culture and how their other fellow

  since are being treated there's a

  question of if you could make all of the

  synths intelligent what would happen to

  society creating an entire race of

  sentient beings that human has been you

  humans have been using just four four

  four servants and so the first season

  dealt with a lot of these issues and

  then the second season deals with even

  more of these issues what what what

  should we say to people who maybe

  haven't started this show about what

  makes it interesting well it's a it's a

  British show it is so it takes it's

  supposed to take place like in London

  right is that where they are yeah more

  or less

  yeah we the outlying areas you know

  maybe I don't know Essex I don't who

  knows sure yeah so what I would say to

  tell people to check out this show is it

  sounds like your basic sci-fi show and

  if it was on American television the

  premise you just described would be like

  death you would just know would be

  handled poorly but because it's a

  British show a it does things a little

  bit differently than you might expect

  if you're as an American television

  viewer so there's a little bit of extra

  you know off-kilter flavor to it and be

  I feel like it is it doesn't fall into

  most of the traps that every American

  show that wants to be sci-fi as what was

  that show that was on briefly there was

  like a like a buddy cop show where there

  was a police officer and yeah almost

  almost almost human with it with Karl

  Urban in Libra that's a great example of

  a similar issue premise handled way

  worse by an American show so especially

  season

  we'll get to what I thought of season 2

  and a little bit especially season 1

  takes a light touch and really does

  concentrate on the characters and takes

  its time to get where it's going and

  it's cool and refreshing

  I agree the the basic premise the show's

  an adaptation of I think it's a Swedish

  series it's it's European in some

  respect and sometimes when it's late at

  night my brain gets addled and I refer

  to all European countries as one

  contiguous union of states I don't know

  in the same way that Jason refers to all

  British broadcast channels if you say

  see something

  yeah it's BBC for BBC channel 4 is this

  case yeah BBC Sky BBC Sky whatever

  that's just the actual sky in England is

  the BBC sky as far as I'm concerned it's

  usually cloud all the great BBC's all of

  them and the the thing that we get in

  the first season is a different angle

  than the original show necessarily took

  where it kind of it kind of starts out

  action movie like in the middle of

  something and you know some stuffs going

  on we kind of take take the gentle

  approach into this whole series of ideas

  and concepts and what-ifs and questions

  that play out across the I guess you

  would say the landscape of to two

  different families that are coming

  together and ripping apart from the

  inside in different respects one of them

  a suburban type domestic family and the

  other a family of synthetics who have

  become self-aware that are not the kind

  of I guess you would say in the

  classical definition of robot slave

  tools that happen to look talk and act

  in many ways like human beings to the

  extent that they can be played by

  British actors who just wear wigs

  colored contacts and adjust their

  movement slightly and I you know I like

  that they don't draw things out in some

  respects in the first season something

  that was mentioned back in episode 263

  when you guys talked about this and mr.

  robot and thankfully their chapter

  markers so if for some reason you're not

  caught up on mr. robot you can just skip

  straight to the humans bit is that is

  that the the show

  ended its first season in a way that

  that is kind of crazy making but that

  I'm okay with in in ways that we'll get

  into after the spoiler or into season

  two to an extent but I'm it's it's a

  show that has such a complexity of

  multi-threaded storylines going on

  simultaneously it's not just that

  there's an a plot and a B plot there's

  an a sub header 1 sub header 2 sub

  header 3 series of plots going on that

  are inter woven and simultaneous but at

  once not cheap to the extent of

  something like 2005 Best Picture winner

  crash where everything just happens to

  have something to do with everything

  else this this for me is much more the

  Internet of Things as people and

  grappling with with what a parallel

  current modern era would would do when

  faced with this stuff in a way that

  doesn't feel cheap and tacked on and

  plastic and thoroughly thoroughly ruined

  by by american-ness which i think is a

  probably mischaracterizing but agreeing

  with with the argument that john had the

  other thing that i love about the show

  like a lot of BBC itv BBC Sky type shows

  is that there's a cornucopia of folks

  that are in the regular cast that you

  know you've got mr. Grove from the mr.

  selfridge show that we have on PBS here

  in the States

  Katherine Parkinson from the IT Crowd

  Gemma chan who has like three lines and

  fantastic beasts and where to find them

  is is one of the you know most you know

  face forward you know characters in the

  show in season two we get carrie anne

  moss from the matrix and without dipping

  into the spoiler side of things one of

  the things that that I think season 2

  earned is that we we don't just see this

  technological revolution as it were from

  one side of the Atlantic we get a look

  at what's going on in Silicon Valley and

  the types of people with a gigantic

  amount of money and not as many morals

  and how they are deciding to proceed in

  this brave new world of sentient AI yeah

  I'd say jumping on something John said

  there - about how it does

  feel because it's a British show it

  feels different I like that it that

  about it that makes it feel like it

  doesn't have it doesn't feel like it has

  high stakes when in fact it actually has

  incredibly high stakes and it does feel

  like it is it is a family drama in a lot

  of ways it's not set in some sort of

  future dystopia it's set in essentially

  what feels like the present day except

  for the science fictional elements there

  are a lot of things I like about that

  yeah it does it doesn't feel like the

  the new Planet of the Apes movies but

  they're similar levels of stakes of Oh

  know what's going to happen right this

  this does not I don't know either does

  this not bode well or do we bring this

  upon ourselves and we're looking at at

  and I guess you would say the the alien

  coexistence sort of sort of struggle but

  from something that that was really

  wholly created by ourselves well we

  should we should probably just fire off

  the spoiler horn and talk about talk

  about season two of humans but I

  definitely think it's on Amazon Prime in

  the US the first season so you might

  want to give it a watch and see what you

  think of this UK take on questions of

  sentience and and where these creatures

  might fit in our society and how how the

  existence of these kinds of beings might

  affect humanity in fact it affect the

  labour market which is actually I think

  one of perhaps it's more trenchant

  topics even though most labor is not

  being replaced by robots walking around

  looking like humans it's still an issue

  of the future of the labour market but

  with automation so there's a lot of

  different things to touch this on but

  we're going to blow up the spoiler horn

  here and and dive in to a little bit

  more about season two of robots

  [Laughter]

  all right things get really different in

  season two um they're there part of me

  thinks I'm wondering what you guys think

  about this part of me thinks that season

  one was originally conceived with more

  of an ending I said on the last podcast

  I really felt like season one was

  walking straight forward until the last

  episode to make all the sense on the

  whole planet conscious and then it very

  quickly ran away from it at the end of

  the last episode it felt to me as if the

  whole show realized wait we don't want

  to close off the story because we might

  come back and do more episodes and so

  season 2 has a little bit of a reset

  where they kind of have to add in some

  new storylines and figure out what to do

  with all the characters and I think

  there are parts of that that are

  problematic that they struggle with some

  of it figure out figuring out what to do

  and the irony of it all is that I feel

  like the last couple of scenes of the

  last episode of season 2 are exactly

  what I thought the last couple of scenes

  of season 1 would be with some of the

  characters mixed around so they sort of

  got to that dramatic point anyway they

  just decided to put it off a season well

  on a basic overall outline side of

  things I feel that decompression in

  season 2 where they either expected

  season 1 to maybe get a renewal pick up

  or they expected that to pretty much be

  it and just take the check to the bank

  from AMC probably spending more of the

  money on this than channel 4 did just

  because American cable channels even

  though you compare American cable to

  American broadcast budgets and cable has

  a fraction of the budget that broadcast

  show does and you know back end

  incentives and syndication and all that

  kind of stuff but those numbers for

  cable in terms of what people get paid

  on the production side of things the

  actors the directors the writers

  everybody absolutely Dwarfs what what

  British television production budgets

  are like you know where you have someone

  like Michelle Gomez from Doctor Who who

  is like yeah we just we we just kind of

  crank through it you guys it's great

  that you guys love the show so much but

  there is not a ton of money in British

  TV and there's a reason that a lot of us

  find ourselves

  wanting to find a big film franchise to

  attach ourselves to so as far as I can

  tell

  channel 4 probably does actually pay the

  pay the load of it especially given that

  channel 4 in a much smaller country gets

  more people watching humans more people

  watch humans in the UK in the u.s.

  despite the massive disparity in

  population and it is made by kudos in

  the UK so it's probably on their

  schedules and on their more of their

  sort of budgets but even you know a

  little bit of backing from the US it

  probably has a better budget it just

  plain makes it something that can be

  done and instead of the British shows

  that'll do two seasons and be done

  they're suddenly going well it looks

  like we can stretch this out a bit and

  as much as I enjoyed season 2 it felt

  like it felt like creating additional

  runway to not run out of and and all I

  mean that just there's there's a bunch

  of cool dramatic stuff that happened

  throughout the course season two and a

  lot of cool character stuff that

  happened but I hated that I enjoyed the

  wrap-up of season two as feeling more

  satisfying because it felt like what we

  should have seen at the end of season

  one in terms of progressing the story

  along and they probably could have done

  this whole show in like two six or eight

  episode seasons and covered all of the

  ground that they wanted to cover but

  it's you know inserting new characters

  inserting additional plot lines

  inserting more supporting cast that are

  that are conscious synths and that

  that's that that's kind of the struggle

  that I found myself with on when it

  comes to season two could be like Friday

  Night Lights right and Friday Night

  Lights right you can just skip season

  two and pretend it never happened to

  just literally stitch the last episode

  of season two on to season one and be

  like and all the sense woke up yay

  yeah it's like hey guess what okay you

  watch none of this by the way

  carrie-anne moss is here and she has her

  daughter's consciousness or a backup

  version of it uploaded into a bunch of

  servers and also there is a synth who

  became conscious and now the final

  episode of season two is like a slasher

  movie and most of season two really

  comes off like a horror show I do like

  the idea that not all the censor gentle

  and that there is this psychopath synth

  who is who is she slot were acting

  logically but she does not care about

  killing people or being violent but I

  want to talk about Carrie and moss

  because this is one of those things at

  first there's part of me that's like is

  this the American co-producer saying

  let's get some American characters in

  the show because she's American we start

  out and she's in California a day at a

  google-like company where there's a

  there's a charismatic CEO who's a

  wunderkind and he's got ideas about AI

  and he's hired her to finally give her

  the money she needs to further her

  project and at the beginning of the

  season I was really intrigued by that

  storyline because the idea there is that

  she has this AI in a computer and I

  really like the the reflection there the

  opposition there of we have we know

  there's AI it's happened urgently in

  these synths out in the world and then

  here we have a researcher who's trying

  to build AI in a computer completely

  different tack tactic and technique and

  I I was really intrigued about how that

  might interact and it is one of the

  aspects of season two that I think ended

  up being kind of a failure there are

  some emotional notes in there but I feel

  like in terms of the themes of the show

  it didn't really challenge me to think

  about the overarching themes of

  intelligence and responsibility and

  ended up being much more about a mother

  who's grieving over the loss of her

  child and trying to replace them in

  artificial intelligence and I felt like

  the all that we really got in terms of

  interacting with the since was this sort

  of haphazard attempt to put the AI in a

  synth body but it was never really clear

  and it was ultimately you know it's sort

  of like that storyline just kind of got

  sniped at the end there's one final

  confrontation carrie-anne moss puts a

  you know puts the plant on her desk in a

  box and walks out of the building and

  that's the end and it was that was

  disappointing because I really thought

  that this was a an interesting

  opportunity to do the since intelligence

  in a different light and in the end sort

  of nothing came of it I mean maybe

  something will come of it in a future

  season but I

  since the AI is now like out on the

  internet and on servers in China or

  something but that felt much more like

  they were just sort of sweeping it under

  the rug

  and getting back to their original story

  and making me wonder why we even had

  that plotline next season next season a

  subplot line with Michelle Yeoh set in

  Hong Kong and yeah ooping of Soviet

  co-production was Chinese TV yeah

  exactly

  Jon would you think of the great that so

  the that AI I mean it was pretty early

  in the season and I was also kind of

  excited to see it but but as soon as it

  appeared I realized very early on in

  season 2 something that would bug me for

  the entire season which is season 1 did

  the thing that you know first seasons of

  shows like this do or at least the good

  ones do it's like they don't tell you

  the whole condition of the world right

  away right just go goes about its story

  and soon you learn they're these things

  called synth and you know how do these

  cents work who has them what what do

  they do and like as the episodes

  progressed more and more of the world is

  revealed to you so you're you know does

  it look kind of like now but it's not

  quite like now and so it takes its time

  over the course of season one showing

  you revealing its world to you and

  revealing all these different

  interactions and by the end you kind of

  have a reasonable picture of it and then

  the season ends season 2 we more or less

  know how the world works and for me

  personally since I'm such a annoying

  stickler for this type of stuff in

  sci-fi um I was free then too you know

  you're not going to be revealing

  anything new about the world we even

  learned all about like what's his name

  Elster or whatever like and it's all

  family like we know all that backstory

  we know the current situation we know

  all the parameters and that left my

  brain free to think about unfortunately

  the the I don't know I have a good name

  for it but like the the sci-fi thing

  that I harp on all the time where if

  this is possible what would then what

  else would also be possible yeah

  Pandora's Box is already open why is it

  not wreaking more havoc than we've got

  so far

  yeah re not even for the a I think so

  like heard that for the subconscious

  thing for the AI specifically their

  premise in the beginning is that

  carrie-anne moss is working on this

  thing and she's got this AI and you know

  someone so forth and it's like the pitch

  of like the the Mark Zuckerberg

  surrogate dude it's like hey come to our

  company will give you the more resources

  your AI can't be contained we'll give

  you a bigger server farm and so on

  so and it's like alright listen we

  already know that non-conscious since

  not the conscious ones but the plain old

  non conscious ones are already smarter

  and more capable than this stupid grass

  computer thing you need a whole server

  farm you can't fit it you need a bigger

  server farm and you can't get your

  stupid in computer AI work the regular

  run-of-the-mill you can go to the store

  and buy one non-conscious since they're

  smarter and they fit inside a single

  packaging you charge them every night so

  I don't see how that fits in your

  worldview and yes I was also looking for

  an interaction between the disembodied

  AI and the body AI but that totally

  switched gears into a mother-daughter

  thing and by the way I had my first kind

  of like Harrison Ford effect thing with

  carrie-anne moss because when they first

  showed the scene of like when just

  showing flickering memories of her with

  uh you know our daughter at the

  waterfall and everything I totally

  thought that was her girlfriend because

  in my view no carrie-anne moss is the

  age she was in the matrix and so the

  other actors but they're it's like oh

  it's like you when you see Harrison Ford

  with like someone who was half his age

  you're like oh that works perfectly I'm

  just used to seeing that well I saw

  carrie-anne moss but this 20 year old

  girl I'm like you know it must be her

  girlfriend no it was her daughter it's

  her daughter I literally visually can't

  compute carrie-anne moss as not being

  the ages and I mean you saw a time

  displacement paradox where there was

  none yeah but anyway the detect the tech

  comparison of the AI stuff really hard

  that bothered me I accepted that because

  again I expected them to go place they

  didn't go and that's one of the things

  that frustrated me is that I was

  thinking cuz we're introduced to her and

  she's this amazing you know researcher

  who's at the forefront of AI research

  and she's finally going to be well

  funded and she's going to break this

  thing right

  except we as viewers know it's done it

  already happened it happened naturally

  it happened to merchant Lee with you

  know with the help this this code that

  that what Elster was working on it's

  like we know that they made a

  breakthrough and that the sense can be

  smart we don't need giant servers to do

  it so I kept thinking it's like oh I

  think I actually said a lady you are

  about to be really disappointed right

  like all my life's work and then this

  happens and I thought that would be

  interesting drama like she's trying to

  try to revive her daughter she has has

  been thinking of AI as kind

  from this direction it's come from this

  different direction what is she gonna do

  can she adapt can is you gonna make a

  new kind of of sente I that is different

  in some way like I was ready for that

  kind of clash and there is it just isn't

  there

  there's nothing there but but like I

  said I don't think it's a consciousness

  it's the non conscious since the regular

  ones that just bringing way yeah the

  sort of two ones those are smarter than

  area because hurry eyes like try and

  talk to have what do you think of this

  how do you feel bad it's the thing is

  like a toddler where is the the non

  conscious one I don't know in talk to

  like an adult and they can they can

  navigate the world and have bodies and

  can do chores and laundry you can argue

  I'd say it's differently intelligent

  because she's trying to replicate like a

  human with all these memories and all

  this and kind of have them grow up and

  yeah and all of that across a spread

  across a gigantic amount of virtual

  machines using a contemporary

  contemporary level processors and so on

  where is the synth technology is is that

  like unobtainium a kind of thing where

  they have this network that's on par

  with data from Star Trek

  yeah like it seemed like that it seemed

  like from different shows they just seem

  like they're from now and that's and

  that's why I expected it to be a rude

  awakening for her where marks occur will

  be like forget this server crash look

  the sins can do it she doesn't know

  what's going on in the UK she's just

  been toiling away in California has no

  idea oh by the way in UK they have like

  literal like you know intelligent robots

  wandering around not the conscious once

  again the conscious ones forget the

  conscious ones are just like and that's

  that's another thing of the show right

  the pitch of the show and it has to be

  the pitch of the show is that the

  sentient conscious synths are greater

  than better than more intelligent than

  more sophisticated than the non

  conscious ones right but I actually

  don't see much evidence that they are

  more human-like but I'm not entirely

  sure that anything on the show actually

  supports the idea that they are there

  more than you might be right because

  there are more like you know because

  they react more like humans and they

  have quote-unquote feelings but the

  other ones are very good at reading

  people and understand when you're upset

  and they do the stupid thing with a with

  a voice I can tell you are upset because

  your heart rate and but which is stupid

  but it shows that they have perhaps a

  greater understanding of humans than the

  conscious ones do and

  to feeling like they have directives

  they're just they're just not human like

  so we can't relate to them and they they

  acrobatically and talk erotica but in

  general they can do everything we can do

  and they could understand our thoughts

  and feelings and suggestions perhaps in

  a way is better than humans so that you

  know I don't know maybe maybe too much

  on the robot side here Joan did this

  season of humans make you distressed how

  can I help

  well I was rooting for Niska to kill

  everybody a lot in the cold season too

  so I don't know I don't know if I'm on

  the right side of the show like I have

  this this this III had the same kind of

  anticipatory interest in what was going

  on at the carrie-anne moss thread where

  it was it was almost built like this

  self-aware AI classic monster narrative

  like Frankenstein's monster kind of

  thing of you've opened the door doing

  this and what are the consequences of

  doing that and that's kind of how her

  plotline ended up playing out where she

  tempted fate by taking Zucker jerks

  money and resources and access and

  everything and the dominoes kept falling

  to an extent but it just it didn't quite

  catch fire and I was I was getting bored

  with it and I wanted to be more and more

  excited about the level of of danger and

  and suspense that was in it and there

  was progressively less and less of that

  as the as the season ended up going on

  and at the same time I had I had this

  thought of along the lines of what

  John's saying where these sense who

  become aware and and have emotions and

  everything it's like the first few

  minutes of the episodes of Star Trek The

  Next Generation when data has emotions

  and all of a sudden he's not quite as

  efficient and powerful and great because

  he's compromised by having to compensate

  for these emotions that he's not used to

  dealing with these urges these feelings

  these things that distract him and I

  don't feel like the show did well I do

  and I don't there were moments where I

  felt like they played it really well

  with the various self-conscious sense

  that did have those sorts of crises but

  then others were just kind of dippy and

  stupid and distracted

  yeah and if anything it seemed like

  giving them that self-awareness giving

  them that consciousness if anything made

  them radically less capable of the Rise

  of the Planet of the synths kind of

  thing that we kind of thought we were

  going to get at the end of season one

  they're sort of kind of teasing at the

  end of season two or season two ended up

  playing with different versions of where

  it was we are going to lead our soldiers

  from their prison and we will take over

  this world and they will no fear and

  like x-men villain lines but I just I

  don't know that I if if they are going

  to play that the way that it seems they

  are which is that it's more of a

  liability than an advantage and this

  this brings me back to some of the stuff

  in the magician's about getting rid of

  your shade and not feeling your trauma

  not feeling post-traumatic stress not

  feeling any of that kind of stuff not

  having to deal with it

  viewing that as a distraction maybe

  maybe that's that's pretty much the the

  reverse that they have set up as the

  conditions of this world that having

  those kinds of emotions is something

  that is way more of a liability than

  anything else if that's the case then

  what are they doing in season 3 well

  they kind of infantilized this sense

  some of the sense make them be like that

  you know sort of scared toddlers or

  whatever but in order for them to have

  that robot skill all human story there

  have to be ones that are different than

  that the ones that have ambition and and

  are more sophisticated levels of thought

  like it's it's strange they try to

  actually you know put a pin on this

  thing of saying you're just like human

  some of you are nuts and some of you are

  dummies and you know like there is a lot

  of variety you got like max who's always

  smiling it looks dumb but has like you

  know wisdom and emotional intelligence

  and you've got the Elster kid it was

  just a jerk and doesn't know what that

  he's doing and you've got psychopath

  lady Hester and you got Niska who's I

  think the most identifiable as an adult

  intelligent thinking human who kind of

  sees what it's state what's at stake has

  the wherewithal to do something about it

  maybe conflicted about going one way or

  the other but actually acts like you and

  then the other ones that wake up like

  they never seem to get out of toddler

  phase and so it's not you know I

  appreciate that they're trying to show

  that there's a variety but if they're

  going to have since the versus using hee

  round one in the next season it's going

  to be a little messy it's not going to

  be like a West world kind of not even a

  West row kind of like semi organized

  revolt of some code yeah superior beings

  versus inferior beings it seems a lot

  more messing that which which may be

  appropriate well the the big revelation

  at the end of the episode of the last

  episode and something that I kind of

  liked was there is a there is an

  enjoyable speech that Laura gives to

  Hester the the murderous synth that and

  I really liked it because it is the show

  just laying down all its cards at that

  moment and she says um you're not you're

  not something different because she's

  very much like we're different and you

  have to respect us and you know we're

  gonna we're gonna be here and and I'm

  gonna kill people and it's gonna be

  great and and she's like we didn't make

  a new race we made artificial humans but

  you're humans you have the same problems

  and the same she said she says like if

  you were a human you would be diagnosed

  for your for your mental illness that

  you have and for the problems you had

  when you started life you are humans the

  synths are not an alien race they're

  just a different kind of person and we

  can we can debate whether the text of

  the show

  actually bears that out or not but I

  feel like that is actually what the what

  the what the producers have been arguing

  kind of all along which is that you know

  this is not the science fictional

  emergence of a global super intelligent

  robot it isn't Skynet awakening it's not

  it's just what it turns out these are

  people too to just like us except

  artificial but they're just like us and

  they have all the same problems that we

  do they're just an artificial bond maybe

  a little dimmer than we are though like

  I sort of said maybe just like as accept

  me I mean arguably make sense because

  they're literally younger like they're

  not that many exactly I have a childhood

  to go through but I mean but again for

  the show to be able to make progress on

  any kind of thought you have to have

  some of them be essentially adults like

  you know intelligent knowledgeable

  emotionally sophisticated adults the

  first wave is is is more and they try to

  show some of that in the first episode

  of the second season

  where they show the awakening of some

  new characters and you get that sense

  that like they're really kind of out to

  sea and we see with OD when OD gets

  upgraded which I again it was nice to

  see him because I liked the bittersweet

  nature of the William Hurt storyline

  from season one at the same time they

  kind of didn't really use him it was

  just sort of like we could bring him

  back I was hoping he was gonna go to the

  priest and decide you know what you're

  right father kill humans like he's like

  he was trying to arrive like he was

  obviously conflicted he doesn't really

  know where his place is he's trying to

  side in the end he decides to go the

  other direction just you know off

  himself back to robots Ville can't

  handle the pain of being alive at a time

  but like but I'm not understanding like

  not quite sure what I could do like and

  yeah but a lot of interesting problems

  it just kind of didn't go anywhere with

  the other one that really really chapped

  my whatever's that expression is which

  is a classic sci-fi thing which I don't

  know if is it a Star Trek episode you

  guys can tell me the experts the Travis

  but but certainly there are a million

  other ones you've got yes you've got

  Niska and she turns yourself in because

  it's her move to do let's see if you are

  conscious you can do just a whole season

  with that is the a lot and be super

  interesting and they just left it all on

  the table just a lost opportunity able

  like the few scenes they had of like

  their interrogators like how much you

  paying for these lawyers because they

  are terrible really I may have never

  Astaire never read a sci-fi book in

  their life what are you even doing yeah

  I mean one of the most iconic episodes

  of the next generation is called the

  measure of a man where Captain Picard

  basically defends the humanity of data

  or actually no he he he argues against

  it and commander Riker has to has to

  defend data and it is those nights yeah

  okay her prosecutes data Picard says no

  no he's sentient and it is important

  thing is a bald guy in a guy with a

  beard haha

  dual in a courtroom over the sentience

  of an artificial human here it's women

  in suits yeah what what could be a more

  like that has been done so many times

  the core of so many sci-fi stories and

  you can like just if you just copied

  other people that you can do it well and

  they would just seem so uninterested

  into in what makes us conscious or alive

  yeah it's it's it's let's throw this

  giant pile of

  red herring on a table and then just

  sweep it all back into the bay I was so

  excited to have that be one of the plot

  lines I thought this is really like

  early on the season this is really going

  good we got Kerry and moss in this clash

  and she's gonna be you know rude

  awakening that her research is wasted

  because the you know the sense was the

  answer and then we got the the legal

  thing and the legal thing yeah it is a

  rich storyline too even if the ultimate

  results is the same which is the powers

  that be have got their thumb on the

  scale and they're just not going to let

  this happen

  you could have still explored this is

  what the show is about right it's

  exploring issues of what is she what

  does it mean to be human what does it

  mean to have rights this is this is you

  could there are political ramifications

  storytelling like this there's so much

  you could do with this that makes for

  good science fiction and instead it they

  like get to the point where it's ready

  for the good stuff to happen and then

  nothing nothing happens because instead

  they're like let's have a conversation

  with Niska the the the the artificial

  like they just like ask you some

  questions oh let's bring your girlfriend

  and it's like what are you even doing

  with this like both both sides we were

  not able to prosecute there it's worse

  than that it's it's literally we're

  gonna hook her up to a lie-detector well

  she has no bodily functions right so

  we're gonna show her pictures of scary

  things oh I really like showing the

  scary pictures like that you can't be

  conscious it's like maybe she's just a

  psycho man like what maybe she like you

  as if you just try to judge and no and

  no legal arguments right there no legal

  arguments made am i it was I completely

  wrong in like reading this kind of

  there's some sort of shadowy government

  conspiracy thing going on there's some

  person behind like no it's just it's the

  powers that be don't want this

  government just want to get rid of this

  dangerous machine the way it felt if it

  felt like they were teasing that there

  was that kind of person behind the

  curtain kind of thing but then none of

  that even happened no I think I mean I

  think they were saying all along that

  that they could make this argument but

  in the end there's just no way it's

  going to happen because humans aren't

  ready for this and that's how if they

  had done it well they would have had

  them do the argument and it would have

  been a right good argument and you would

  it maybe some people would come away

  feeling that they've proved their case

  and maybe some people would feel they

  wouldn't but in the end it won't matter

  because like Jason said if the fix was

  in

  and that's fine I would've been a fine

  way to end it they just skip the whole

  milhorn middle yeah that could have been

  good drama yeah it's it's a real shame

  this is

  absolute so much of where I'm this like

  giant bundle of knots about this show

  where I feel like I'm a pile of

  contradictions where I love so much of

  what they do and then I find myself

  going wait why did they not do that and

  the counterpoint do I have that I have

  to this specific thing is if anything it

  feels like it feels like this entire

  season is symbolically playing with the

  notion of they they have awoken and they

  are going through a version of of

  self-conscious puberty and this is like

  the adolescent stage of their awakening

  and that's why so many things that that

  could go the mature hard sci-fi route of

  you know mature thought and all that

  kind of stuff gets thrown out the window

  because the the sense that have emotions

  decided every turn to be petulant

  teenagers and go no we're going to burn

  everything down there's going to be a

  revolution and we're gonna rule the

  world and we're gonna friggin kill him

  and so yeah and and and it feels like

  they didn't commit enough to that if

  that's what they were trying to get

  across well they were also just trying

  to save themselves like their main

  thrust of the little band of you know

  the party of since until the very end

  was like we know since they're waking up

  we need to protect them because it's a

  hostile world and it slowly transformed

  into like well the only way to protect

  them is to you know find the people who

  are getting them and the people who are

  kidnapping them we should probably

  probably kind of kill them all and then

  you know it was it was building up to it

  also the the I expected I mean to your

  point Moyes as I expected max who is one

  of my favorite characters he's so

  friendly and smiley and he's the very

  nice synth and I expected I expected him

  to be yeah I expected it to be max in

  opposition to Hester right where it's

  like no peace and love and we're all

  going to be fine and we're going to take

  care of each other and kill all humans

  right max just bails he's like I'm not

  hanging out with this psycho they said

  they set up that fracturing of the synth

  family and then they didn't do anything

  no again a missed opportunity where max

  just sort of lives on a train that's in

  a railroad car somewhere in this agency

  helps them sense that and then they just

  waits for the other people to come back

  then yeah I just again it's just it's

  just kind of baffling because that's

  another point of drama what did you

  think of the of the plot with with Rini

  the girl who acts like a synth and then

  a daughter who tries to act like a synth

  they did not they maybe it's not

  possible to do but I certainly think

  they did not do a good enough job of

  explaining why the heck people would do

  this like I know they want this to be a

  thing like oh and by the way some people

  pretend to be since right why why do

  they better to do I know I know somebody

  who in high school she was a huge Harry

  Potter fan and she would literally wear

  like a Gryffindor cape to school and do

  a fake English accent because she just

  wanted to live in the world of Harry

  Potter and she was a Harry Potter

  superfan and she was a weird kid right

  but why does someone want to be a synth

  because they suck well I think I think

  Rimi Rini is is very much like she's got

  lots of problems at home and she this is

  like her way of escaping that she gets

  to suppress emotion making for an

  individual character you might have a

  reason but this pitch on the show is

  that this is a thing yeah it is just so

  crazy

  it's like grunt is the thing look like

  pretend synth is the new grunge I don't

  get I don't think that it's attractive

  enough to be a subculture and certainly

  I don't see much of an explanation for

  poor Sophie to be into it yeah like they

  do it as a dramatic thing to what should

  we do about sofo it's like why what's

  what selfs motivation to do this right I

  don't it doesn't just didn't connect to

  me and I mean here's the other thing

  when they're on the screen one thing

  they code done is played up the aspect

  that played up the idea that people who

  are tending to be since are annoying

  because they sure annoyed me yeah like

  stop it you're not a synth and so this

  should have shown shown them annoying

  other people and being abused for

  pretending to be since I still think

  that would have required you to buy into

  the idea that that is there is a reason

  that a large number of people want to be

  since which I didn't buy into but at the

  very least like what I'm getting to is

  every time they were on screen

  pretending to be since I was like stop

  it I didn't like Sophie pretending to be

  since I didn't like how the family was

  handling it I didn't like the friend

  pretending to be since it was all like

  being a synth is no freaking fun it's

  not as fun as being Harry Potter it's

  stupid and I didn't like that subplot of

  I have it I have another thing about

  this subplot that bothers me which is

  there are several moments when they're

  talking about this that I said to myself

  is this meant to be a metaphor for

  people being trans because there are

  several moments where they're like oh

  well you need to you know respect her

  her her pronouns basically yeah

  man I could not agree with you more on

  this like that that would that was what

  really skeeved me out of and it but and

  that bugged me because I then I would

  analyze it and go but it's not this

  isn't like that at all yeah because in

  the end they have her you know go and

  take a bath and take off all her stuff

  it's trying to say oh they'll all snap

  out of it usually uh which eventually

  Billy is gonna stop wearing dresses and

  deciding that he wants to be a girl even

  though it's the Bentley in fact that

  Billy is no Sally yeah I don't think

  they leaned on it that hard and I think

  I mean I certainly was rooting for me to

  snap out of it because of what she was

  doing was stupid and had nothing to do

  with anything else but you know if

  that's what they were actually trying to

  pitch it as that's awful well you're

  supposed to hate the I mean the fact

  that that the son like said like really

  disrespects her and I felt like those

  were moments that are very much like

  he's basically like dead naming her he

  is he is challenging her pronouns he is

  making her wrongs not video that he wins

  in the end he's like yeah that's right

  we're just gonna hang out on the couch

  and watch TV and you'll be human again

  yeah everything is normal yeah and

  you're going to conform you're going to

  conform to what makes him comfortable

  not wait yeah it's it's you know people

  people hate the P word problematic and

  oh gosh you know can we please stop

  catering everybody and affirmative

  action everything but but the the

  problematic nature of it for me is that

  when I started to feel like wait a

  minute is this is this some writers

  deciding that they're going to do a

  trans metaphor and then it brought me

  back into thinking about something that

  I constantly think about watching a

  bunch of sci-fi shows you know Star Trek

  even being one of them as progressive a

  Star Trek is there is so much ethnic

  uttering that is in the way that they

  characterize alien races where you've

  got Klingons with fu-manchu's beards and

  they're there there was that kind of

  icky feel to the way that they were they

  were trying to metaphorically play these

  synths of varied races and genders as

  metaphors for for for you know slavery

  is just something that you get with

  robots because that's that's part of how

  they're set up where the word comes from

  that that's pop that's part of why this

  is such a problem because I there is not

  a massive trend that people across the

  earth pretending to be slaves because

  that is not a

  active proposition other you know

  outside weird you know sex stuff or

  whatever like yeah outside of people in

  in full-body latex suits being walked

  like a dog across the street yeah but

  that's different I mean like like

  literal actual American style slaves

  like no one wants to be that because

  it's not a fun thing to be no one wants

  to be no one would want to be a synth to

  the degree that it would be a widespread

  thing one or two people have serious

  mental problems and use it as like a you

  know to hide from their like a difficult

  family situation or whatever fine but to

  be like everyone just knows that's the

  thing and like you know one in five

  people in your school are pretending to

  be since they're they wouldn't want to

  pretend to be since it's boring it's not

  there was there was new wave and there

  was Punk and then there was sin so

  here's the thing that's the real missed

  the real missed opportunity here is is

  when they do this whole thing with Rini

  and she takes off her out of you know

  offer her contact lenses and she's just

  sitting on the couch is the real shame

  of it is what I wanted to have happen

  because I think it would be an

  interesting thing to see how characters

  would process it is all the people who

  acted like synths in order to take away

  emotion and seem less human how do they

  deal with the fact that all of a sudden

  all the sins have feelings and he are

  just as human as us and like what is

  that what does that mean that you your

  identity that you were trying to emulate

  is now gone and they're like you I think

  it actually might be kind of interesting

  but we don't get there either because

  they cut that storyline off and resolve

  it and it's kind of uncomfortable I'm

  trying to I'm trying to think of things

  I liked I actually enjoyed the second

  season but I was really frustrated by it

  I felt like they didn't like weather

  wasn't well planned or whether they had

  some ideas and then realized halfway

  through that they just weren't working

  it just seems like or whether it really

  was one season worth of story and then

  they kind of had to invent a second

  season well honestly it feels like they

  had that first season of tight a lot of

  really good stuff a lot of really

  well-thought-out well-planned stuff and

  then they had a bunch of like when we go

  around and draft and it's like bringing

  out your dead they had this bring out

  your dead box of stuff that people

  scribbled on note cards of oh you know

  would be cool is if like the little girl

  when the family decides that she wants

  to pretend she's a synth like Mia slash

  Anita

  would be neat let's find a way to work

  that they wrote down a bunch of story

  ideas but they didn't video going it's

  build a whole subplot into that let's

  like that there there's their conscious

  sense that are introduced in season two

  that seemed like they have the beginning

  of a hook and then they're anything

  they're nothing if not just throwaway

  characters that are just window dressing

  yeah they have so many characters in the

  show like I don't know you know season

  one is you're just a ton of characters

  right and and I think I think most of

  the actors do do a good job with what

  they're given in this and most of them

  are likable in some way but in season

  two I almost kind of wish that rather

  than introducing yet more characters

  that they had shed them because the

  thing I like most about season two was

  seeing the characters that I've come to

  know and love from season one

  I loved Niska I would like to see what

  Niska gets up to all the time

  I like Mia I loved Niska when she wasn't

  in the middle of the stupid stupid legal

  plot I really loved Niska I loved

  niska's I think the scenes with her and

  her girlfriend in Berlin are beautiful

  they're beautiful and sad and and

  wonderful and they fall in love and

  Niska has to figure out how she's going

  to react and how she's going to tell

  yeah that's beautiful I liked the let's

  say I liked these the plot with um with

  the police woman I thought that was so I

  liked Karen with her with her boyfriend

  uh and and her crisis of confidence that

  she has where she almost like regrets

  him knowing that she's a synth because

  she likes pretend you know um sir yeah

  that was yeah Sanae talked and the the

  the thing I love so much about Pete her

  boyfriend is that he is like

  stereotypical English cop yeah just on

  his be trying to do his job like a real

  cop

  he knows since they're not he knows he's

  batting way out of his League it's

  another schlubby guy and beautiful woman

  scenario on TV he looks like a Ricky

  Gervais who is actually focused on

  acting and doing well what he can do

  well rather than being Ricky Gervais and

  really like digging deep into the

  character and playing it for for

  everything and letting everything count

  and his death honestly for me landed in

  a way that didn't feel like fridging

  that is you know where we see characters

  killed off on shows for the sake of

  advancing the plot motivating heroes

  that kind of thing you know it felt

  earned and it didn't feel like something

  that I was expecting the whole way going

  forward it managed to surprise me and we

  could have lost more than him yeah

  that's what I'm saying like so I there's

  all the characters that I like and then

  there's a whole swath of people who I

  just not interested in anymore

  like a lot of them yeah right or are are

  plots hob came back from season one one

  of the big bad types of season one who a

  lot of people would probably best note

  if they actually saw alien 3 as one of

  the pivotal characters in alien 3

  fantastic actor it was great getting to

  see him for a moment there you know

  there there were there were some of

  those kind of like brief things Josie

  Lawrence comedian plays the synth

  therapist who I remembered from the

  original British version of whose line

  is it anyway

  hilarious brilliant comedian hob as

  Hobbs seen is great too because they

  bring him back for one scene he's like

  look I signed an NDA I can't help you go

  talk to this person and then he's gone

  that's it it's it was he's gone she's

  like I'm staying here if you want a big

  pile of money in a vacation home they'll

  never be seen again ah yeah I guess what

  he doesn't cause he never contacts her

  again that's right II like that I was

  totally on board with but it's like

  we're getting toward the end of the

  second season and they're like by the

  way max needs a girlfriend we're gonna

  introduce this girl kindergarten teacher

  and and yeah all the people on the train

  and then Leo and just like introducing

  Hester it's just like there was just too

  much and Mia's weird side plot with her

  guy who she works for who she kind of

  falls in love with but not quite and

  then he betrays there like it was just

  Jen you know any warts and like yeah you

  concentrated on like concentrate on the

  five characters that I care about the

  most not saying you have to have one

  like it's possible you know the maximum

  number of characters you can get me

  interested in have their own plot lines

  was really lost really press the

  boundaries of that like how many

  characters can you have and sustain so

  that they care about them and I think

  humans had too many for the very least

  this writing stay are able to to work

  through and but everybody got a story

  everybody got a thing they felt like

  we're doing a great job everyone's got

  their little arcs but some of them are

  dumb Tom Tom Goodman Hill who plays mr.

  Grove on mr. Selfridge and plays a

  similar kind of

  jerk dad on this show he got to like

  come out as being like you know what I

  banged the one synth last season and

  turns out I want to like move to the the

  sleepy British town version of like

  Rhodesia that is quote-unquote racist

  against synths and yes such an

  understanding wife because the way she

  how she doesn't look at him and say

  you're an idiot and I adhere how she

  stays with him I don't quite understand

  like harsh levels well but he like he

  Susan's like that's it I'm taking my

  family and going to nonsense Ville and

  if you disagree I'm divorcing you it's

  like get the hell out of here also you

  were you were the guy who got laid off

  from his job in the factory she's the

  successful attorney right and he's

  giving a crap about oh you're gonna go

  work again oh well you know whatever

  it's important to know you got to go to

  your work it's like come on yeah like

  she is she was too understanding I

  really like the wife and but that's the

  other thing like they have the plot the

  first season with the tension between

  the two of them and they said you know

  let's do that again for season 2 have

  him be angry about the fact that she has

  to go to work yeah like come on yeah

  let's stretch out this in this fraught

  relationship just for the sake of

  knowing well we're probably gonna get X

  number of seasons out of this thing so

  let's just yeah keep that going for as

  long as you got to worry about soap

  right mm-hmm like ice all talk about

  what we can do about soap and the Sun

  the Sun has the love subplot with Rini

  and the sofas just us her stupid thing

  and what's-her-name that the daughter

  gets to be computer hacker well that's

  what I was gonna say meanwhile their

  daughter is their older daughter is a

  computer genius who has solved / solved

  the problem / ended the world yeah she's

  saving / destroying the world one of

  those two she's definitely doing it she

  is I want to follow her cuz she's doing

  interesting stuff Maddie she's great

  she's my favorite character I think

  because certainly among the humans

  because she has compassion for the

  humans she has compassion for her family

  although she seems a removed from both

  and she's really smart and and I like

  that when she gets cross-examined by the

  the murderous synth Hester she like

  Hester really wants to have a reason to

  kill her and and she's like you know

  totally believable she's like no I'm on

  your side I believe in you I believe in

  all of you and it's like she's a good

  person and she's going to make this this

  revolution happen if in the end she saw

  like gets that last word of like yes you

  go ahead and do it I should do it and

  she presses return on her little surface

  keyboard and off we go to the races

  everybody's going to become conscious

  you know I really like that character

  there right but you're right John for

  every minute that we get of Maddie we

  get you know a couple of minutes of me

  as near to well like diner owner

  boyfriend that she commits tax fraud

  with and then he we don't care about

  it's like you can't fill out forms he

  needs a robot we do it forms like

  another winner yeah I'm not I'm not even

  saying that we have to have just a

  strictly like ABC plot structure we can

  go ABCDEF even but this is an ABCD efg

  hijk LMNOP and all over the place it's

  it's almost like they're just thrown

  against the wall to distract us from the

  fact they're they just happen to kind of

  dovetail into each other and I find

  myself again it's like this I I enjoyed

  season 2 but I kind of hate myself for

  enjoying it as much as I think that I

  did because I feel like I I just got I

  get distracted into watching the show

  and being like well I guess I got to

  keep watching this cuz Niska is gonna be

  back in about 15 minutes probably I like

  the setting

  I like the actors I like a lot of the

  stuff that's in the show and that's

  enough to get me to watch it and enjoy

  it and even say that I think I think

  it's unlike so many shows on TV that

  it's worth a watch but that doesn't mean

  that I didn't find it incredibly

  frustrating and that they and you know

  this is the shame of it if this was a

  bad show I would just write it off and

  be like well they don't know what

  they're doing is that what's frustrating

  is all of these like missed

  opportunities could have probably been

  good if they had taken a few of them and

  done them better but instead they just

  kind of pour them all on the blender and

  like that's my disappointment the show

  is that it could be way better and they

  just kind of they kind of blew it I

  still watched it all and we'll watch the

  third season of it but boy it could have

  been so much better and they just kind

  of and they just kind of kind of blew it

  I think one of the structural things

  that makes this season like though is

  talking about about the threads and like

  how it doesn't hold together is like and

  season one had the same number of

  characters right it's because and

  getting back to los 2 also had a huge

  number of characters but manages to

  sustain interest in them is that I one

  way that I've seen successfully to do

  this in both season one of humans and

  loss is to have a central mystery

  you got your seventeen bazillion people

  but the central mystery of season one is

  hey what's the deal with these conscious

  scents and we eventually learn what the

  deal is and about their creator and

  where they came from and why they're

  conscious and and the son who still

  alive does have a scent like the central

  mystery weaves them together what's the

  central mystery of season two there is

  none it's just a bunch of stuff going

  off in different directions and we

  eventually arrived at the Alba since

  waking up but there is no central

  mystery that is slowly revealed through

  the actions of other people who

  eventually come together there's none of

  that there's so many different stories

  and stuff that are going on they seem

  like kind of vignettes not like a

  threads all coming together to reveal

  something in the end it's something that

  if this were a quote unquote traditional

  22 episode of season American show I

  would already be checked out yeah but

  the fact that we're getting a season arc

  of story and if they end up doing five

  seasons of eight episodes of piece and

  we end up with 40 uh you know 45-minute

  episodes of this show I'll end up

  sticking with it more readily than I

  will a show that is killing itself to

  stretch out to five seasons of 22

  episodes that you know lost lost is lost

  and lost happen at a very particular

  time I miss lost lost happened during

  college for me and I didn't get on board

  the train and streaming didn't exist and

  look technology was really weird but it

  was it was something that that was just

  a thing that people did and it is really

  difficult to capture that magic in a

  bottle and I'm I'm totally fine looking

  at going okay the first three seasons

  worth of this show is going to be

  roughly the same number of episodes as

  one season of an American show that is

  spinning its wheels like crazy and this

  one at the very least as incredibly

  scattershot as all of it is it's all

  still at least moving forward so I find

  myself forgiving it way way more readily

  than I do you know a 13-episode show on

  Netflix that should be half that order

  I didn't realize short seasons because

  this is seemed longer to me you just

  that doesn't feel like it's spinning as

  wheels but you know realize it's just

  eight episodes right season yeah eight

  episodes most exams way longer I felt

  like there was a way more treading water

  even within the few lowly the the

  carrie-anne moss problem there's no

  momentum right yeah because there's so

  much shifting from storyline to

  storyline there's no relatively speaking

  I think a lot of it for me is feeling

  like it feeling like I'm investing less

  time overall is because I'm so used to

  you know shows going hey we've got a new

  45-minute show that's gonna have 22

  episodes of season I'm alright I'll try

  the first view of them and I'll go oh

  god I can't I can't do this anymore and

  it feels like a blessing to to know that

  I am at maximum only going to be

  trudging through a certain amount of

  stuff like you know timeless on NBC I

  think I ended up just putting on in half

  watching in the background and barely

  paying attention to and the only reason

  that I stuck with it was because I

  didn't really have to pay a lot of

  attention to it but a show like this

  that I have to pay more attention to I'm

  willing to give eight episodes worth of

  time to it then even take a chance on

  most 22 episode shows huh and the

  ambition of it keeps me around to the

  idea that like this is a show that is

  actually trying to explore complicated

  issues of what does it mean to be human

  what you know what what would be the

  impact of these cents on on culture and

  society what would it mean if there was

  a second intelligent species on our

  planet and how would we treat them and

  would we be be fair to them or would be

  cruel to them I mean these are big ideas

  and I think that I cut the show slack

  because I like to see a TV show that

  dares to explore those big ideas even if

  it is kind of fumbling around and

  confused and stuff too much in the bag

  which it totally did

  well the Toby and Ann Rainey thing where

  she hands over her adult options 18 plus

  you know scratch off ticket to her

  sexual agency and just like gives it to

  him I was like oh good he's rejecting

  this and but then the way that that

  played out was very perfunctory Toby's a

  good guy and this is him showing that

  he's a good guy he's going to make good

  guy decision

  and it it's just kind of left there and

  I don't know that they're gonna pick it

  up and do anything with it necessarily

  it was just like hey yeah this is

  something that we had on a note card in

  shoebox and we're gonna we're gonna burn

  this one off because hey we got it to

  burn off so why no Toby and Sophie need

  to go away to camp all right yeah go

  live in the country during the Blitz

  they need to go wherever the the one

  sister on Family Matters went upstairs

  and never returned from for just a

  little while just a little while in

  season three Joe has taken Toby and Soph

  to the synth free community and we don't

  see them right they just say that for

  the whole season the people who we care

  about actually get stuff done yeah

  exactly right that yes they've buried

  all three of those characters in a point

  of no return for me where I it would

  take a significant amount of rolling

  uphill to even get me interested in them

  anymore yeah

  so speaking of season three I'm thinking

  about where you can go and what you said

  Jason about the show is that it really

  is classic sci-fi let's take this a sign

  space premise and use it to you know put

  up a mirror to society involve ah so

  anyway with all the sense awake

  you have many directions that you can go

  in season three the one that they

  probably won't go in because it cost too

  much money is all out human robot war

  right be awesome but this is not the

  budget of the show does not support you

  all at human robot war unfortunately oh

  good news they got they got they got

  money for wigs and contract yeah that's

  right and and and suburban house said

  yeah gardens and and office buildings

  yep and sometimes the green fields

  uh-huh give yourself so many corridors

  if you love corridors this is you sure

  yeah yeah alright many quarters that's

  the thing about these shows like I'm you

  know bringing to other shows that are

  similar Cybermen's and similar like

  budgets you know colony and travelers

  they they do so much with so little

  money yeah like to really ambitious

  broad sci-fi premises and it's like lots

  of interiors and people in close and

  talking like and you know it works at to

  varying degrees but for a season three

  with this show you can do you can decide

  what you know what is your analogy here

  like in the same way I think one of the

  shows that did this the best was the

  good parts of Battlestar Galactica as a

  reflection on the rock war yeah right

  like that was so timely and and

  no perfect and a great use of sci-fi to

  talk about something without talking

  about it without talking about so season

  3 they could do they could do apart I

  they could do you know racism issue

  brings it season 3 is the brags that

  seats right they can do brags it they

  they could they have so many different

  choices they could you know if they want

  to redeem themselves they could do like

  homosexuality like there's so many

  analogies

  analogies

  having suddenly this group of others but

  are they really that other type of thing

  they can go in some one different

  direction and all those things do not

  require big budgets it just requires

  like people talking and having feelings

  and people holding protest signs and

  being angry and so I think despite the

  fact that I thought like if they all

  wake up a lot that's the season over

  they've done enough establishment that

  the tip that the cents are not they're

  not a Skynet would would would be

  disappointed in them yes they're bad

  they are bad at exterminating humans

  they're just pretty lousy and in the end

  they probably just mostly want to live

  so I feel like you have to go more of a

  district nine direction or something

  like that only with less score yeah and

  so I'm kind of looking forward to them

  doing that in season three as long as

  they get rid of the characters I don't

  care about right integration kind of

  issues of issues of racism and

  integrating two cultures and I was

  actually going to throw out it's a

  little like German reunification kind of

  thing where it's like okay as a culture

  we've decided to put these two cultures

  together and there's going to be a lot

  of bad feelings and there's gonna be a

  lot of frustration and how do we make

  this work together because they've just

  been or like alien nation maybe a little

  bit where yeah that kind of paranoia

  stuff you get from alien nation like I

  could see that really working where

  season two a lot of a lot of the stuff

  that kept me kept waking me up as I was

  kind of starting to get bored of the

  wheel spinning was where it turned into

  a slasher movie sort of and and if if we

  can get some kind of like follow the

  Berlin Wall into the cold

  Karen's got a new partner and they're

  solving synth crimes yeah this old

  subscribe the other way you know this is

  uh again I'm read the comic book

  suggesting the one not so great movie

  but sort of x-men sentinels type thing

  because if we take a face value these

  sort of general docile nosov most since

  the what would actually happen I feel

  like in the scenario is that humans

  would kill all since they put him in put

  him in camp was not to put him in camps

  they would just kill them well you kill

  the dodo birds like they would just like

  we're going to kill them in the same way

  the Sentinels are killing all the

  mutants there's no what they were doing

  yeah but would that be interesting

  though if then you had people pretending

  to be since so they've got the contact

  lenses in and you've got maybe since

  pretending to be humans putting in

  contact with less attractive to pretend

  to be a synth when they're when they're

  being exterminated you know but you

  could have yet

  fusion where people are killing since

  that turn out to be people and there are

  people that look like people but are

  actually sensitive very complicated but

  with that but that would like that would

  end season 3 prematurely but I feel like

  that with things establish as they are

  humans are really really good at killing

  other species that are competing for

  them with them in any possible way right

  like that's how we get to be the top of

  the food chain we kill everything else

  and so yeah suddenly there's another

  sentient race and before you get the

  sentence out of your mouth humans have

  killed every single wolves they've

  killed they're gonna kill like if you

  are remotely a threat to us we will kill

  you all we're really good at it we have

  all the weapons and you are generally

  docile and just waking up right but that

  would end things real quickly unless you

  wanted to do a scenario where the

  Sentinel slash humans are kill all the

  Simpson is like seven of them left in

  there and hiding and that's what the

  show is but I don't think they're going

  to do that either well we'll find out

  with the next season when it airs

  probably like next week on channel 4 in

  the UK and then in a year and a half on

  AMC because that's what happened I

  wonder if they'll put them more of them

  on trials really like that it would be a

  natural thing to happen in season 3 for

  the good direction they're probably

  going to go in terms of like are you a

  human or are you a citizen or whatever

  the office the office of synth crime I

  hope it's not so bad a trial as those

  that's the bed what I'm saying like they

  get they get another shot at it it's

  like we can you know it's got a new

  group of riders in who has read a

  science fiction book in their life or

  watch a Star Trek episode and say we can

  do that better we feel like so let's see

  what we can do there yeah they can

  overall you know Victims Unit

  they can't go all the way to alien

  nation because the only nation it would

  be like season 5 of this show where it's

  like alright well we've accepted that

  they're here but it's an uneasy tension

  between the groups unless they do a time

  job which they could yeah if they want

  to suppose they don't like salt water

  you know okay I think the same thing

  again but as my mind works away at all

  the things don't make sense about the

  premise of the show aside from the fact

  that if it took you just to do since so

  much other awesome tech would exist but

  apparently doesn't is the idea that they

  charge themselves they show it a lot in

  the program like if they got a little

  apple watch charger on on their on their

  side

  yeah and it's an important thing and

  like Karen you know that's yourself

  discharged and the kid saves her like

  it's a plot point and as a mechanic that

  they lean on right and I feel like you

  know the same reason sense would be

  killed like the damn dodo birds is

  and it's especially Miskin stop their

  stuff together if you don't know how to

  produce electricity like every sin like

  you are ompletely reliant on these magic

  plugs but in human beings running power

  plants for you to give your electricity

  since need to know how to generate

  electricity because it literally keeps

  them alive it's like humans not knowing

  how to breathe and like you know

  something else breathing for them we

  opened the second season with with a

  synthetic coal mine so I mean they're

  they're doing all the manual labor side

  I know but like do they understand how

  electricity works do they know like if

  they killed all the humans would they be

  like we kill all the humans but then I

  put this plug in the wall to charter

  myself at night and it's not working I'm

  gonna be dead by morning like it seems

  like a really important like prime

  directive of like figure out how to get

  food essentially or you're all going to

  die that every since should be really

  super duper concerned about a source

  electricity so much so that they're

  paranoid about movie you know why we go

  hang out in the woods I need to plug in

  every night or I'm gonna literally die

  so I feel like this if I was a synth

  that would be my number one concern

  which is like if we kill all the humans

  do you know how to make electricity

  because does it just come out of the

  wall magically because if we don't do

  anything it will stop coming out of the

  wall then we'll all be dead never

  overthinking it yeah there's a bit of

  hand-wavy 'im of of all of the sense

  having some central repository of

  knowledge where between all of them I

  guess they all know how to run society

  perfectly on their own I guess

  maybe maybe yeah is they they felt they

  fill all the different roles and they

  feel like they will just slot right into

  the same slots we were in before and

  we'll pick up where they left off as

  long as we don't break all their stuff

  it that that's that's somewhat plausible

  though you can like trying to gauge

  what's in snow

  yeah well that's nice game part of it is

  it just it works it just works it's fine

  well we'll find out for season 3 at some

  point who knows when on BBC channel 4

  and AMC but and we'll be back to talk

  about it

  then but until then I want to thank my

  guests for talking about this show with

  me Moises Cheon thank you thank you

  Jason let me know if I can be of further

  assistance and Jon siracusa thank you

  forgot to mention the robo run just

  every one picture it now run with your

  arms really stiff alright we're gonna

  run away penguin with your arse on

  fire and maybe all the scents are now

  waking up cliffhanger

  this has been the incomparable I've been

  Jason Snell we'll see you next time

  [Music]