The Incomparable

It's Above Average


  the Intolerable number 157 June 2017

  welcome back everybody to the

  incomparable I am NOT your host Jason

  Snell no I am Erika ensign and I'm

  usually a panelist here on the

  incomparable but alas our fearless

  leader is not able to be with us today

  if you are a regular listener to the

  podcast you'll know that one thing we do

  very rarely is talk about current movies

  films that are in the theater now and

  that is because it is so hard to find

  time for enough of us to get to the

  theater and watch them in time to record

  a sort of timely podcast about a new

  movie but this is one of those rare

  occasions when we are going to do just

  that we are here to talk about Wonder

  Woman starring gal gadot and directed by

  patty Jenkins I think Jason would

  probably have liked to have been here

  but there's this little thing this week

  called WWDC and apparently that doesn't

  stand for Wonder Woman from Detective

  Comics who knew so yeah what's that

  about yeah so while the host is a way

  the panelists will play and I have a

  fine assortment of panelists joining me

  today to talk about this blockbuster

  film first of all we have a Shannon

  ceteris welcome back to the podcast

  Shannon or lafa tikis and you heard his

  voice a moment ago and David J Laura's

  here what would that oh oh that's a

  watch Alyssa Frankie welcome welcome to

  be incomparable hello and a Kelly

  camonte how do you do buckaroos and last

  but not least I drag my spouse along

  Stephen Chbosky hello nanu-nanu huh yeah

  off the rails already and with with

  introductions but hey that means I'm

  pretty much on pace for many a typical

  Jason introduction so I don't feel so

  terrible about it but no no no as I said

  yes we are here to talk about Wonder

  Woman and there are a lot of us who not

  only were excited to see the film but

  actually got to see it on opening

  weekend at least once I think maybe some

  of us have seen it more than that so I

  think we're going to go around and and

  do some some maybe John Syracuse's style

  opening statements or just some rough

  overall stuff Before we jump into

  spoiler territory so so don't don't jump

  in with the spoilers right away

  but I would like to to kind of hear what

  your your opinions are in a general

  sense and how many times you've seen

  this what it was sort of the experience

  was like in the theatre anyone want to

  jump in basically I have been dying for

  this movie ever since it got greenlit I

  am a Wonder Woman fan going all the way

  back to my childhood

  Super Friends the Lynda Carter TV show

  subscribe to the comics for a while

  followed the DC Animated universe just

  because I loved the character so much

  and the movie lived up to my


  beautifully I've left the theater I've

  only seen it once so far but I'm going

  back and it totally totally satisfied me

  awesome Kelly did you see this more than

  once I did I saw it three times holy cow

  your hero indeed that's about seven

  hours yeah so the first time was I have

  a regular movie going buddy

  so we will go in the afternoon when it's

  cheaper because what our schedules will

  flex that way and he was complaining

  about having nobody to go to movies with

  so we've gone and seen stuff and he shot

  me a note and said hey I'm going

  Thursday night we've got a bunch of

  people getting together do you want to

  go and I'm like sure so he showed up and

  so I actually got to see it with Greg

  Rucka whoa dude please tell those in the

  audience tonight who don't know who that

  is um he's a big deal hmm let's go with

  that um he he writes Wonder Woman

  currently and actually got to see the

  film earlier this year and said that

  they hadn't really made any sub citizen

  changes so he was looking forward to it

  with the score and some some finished CG

  and stuff because it didn't have music

  when he saw it and and was talking about

  how when he went in they really kind of

  had to he felt like they were going to

  really have to work to impress him and

  then they did and so he's been excited

  about it for ages and of course couldn't

  really say much about it to anybody so

  that was really great

  um and he's so nice and super friendly

  and like it was really great never met

  before and I got a chance to actually

  sit with him and we chatted a little

  before and after the movie and he's so

  nice so like on top of everything else

  like that was really great and then I

  saw it on Friday with some friends of

  mine and then again on Saturday with

  some friends of mine and one thing that

  I noticed is I saw it the first time in

  a local theater like an independent

  theater that's not a searchlight or

  Cinemark or any of those and then I saw

  the other the other two times I saw it

  in Cinemark theatres and Wow I just sort

  of forgot how many commercials um for

  those movies when you go to big places

  um I really enjoyed getting to see a

  movie where a woman was front and center

  and the whole thing wasn't about how is

  the woman gonna respond to this and I

  really felt like the performance of our

  two main characters was balanced I feel

  like Steve Trevor Chris Pine did a

  really good job of I don't know how to

  describe it but like he knew it wasn't

  his movie when right like I feel like

  that was kind of an important thing

  because it's not often that the guy that

  particularly for you Chris Pine who

  spent three movies as the center of the

  film is Captain Kirk you know um feeling

  like it was sort of interesting to watch

  him play second fiddle and so that was

  also a really interesting part of it I

  want to get into specific stuff later so

  I'm just going to leave it at I really

  enjoyed it and I would not be sad at all

  if I had accidentally ended up with

  plans to see it a fourth time today mhm

  yeah I I saw it Friday night and I loved

  it and I one of the things I was I was

  really impressed by was the chemistry

  between the two of them I thought that

  was delightful they were there were

  there were moments straight out of a 30s

  or 40s mid film and sometimes a

  screwball comedy and sometimes a drama

  and they they carried them beautifully

  and and you're exactly right about him

  knowing that it's not his film and

  playing that brilliantly I kind of wish

  his Jim Kirk were a little bit more like

  Steve Trevor at least in the first two

  movies there's a little better in Star

  Trek beyond but the

  JJ Abrams movies he's a little too bro

  and this was much more this this is a

  hero this is a good character yeah yeah

  I had a little eye rolling when I heard

  that he'd been cast because at that

  point all we had was two Star Trek

  movies and a Jack Ryan movie right you

  know to sort of look at and it was and

  I'm like oh that hurts a little you know

  I wasn't sure how they were gonna do

  that but I was I was really impressed

  with him and I actually came out of that

  with a much higher estimation of Chris

  Pine than I did going in nine so Alyssa

  what was your experience like so I saw

  it on Friday it was a birthday party

  actually for one of my gal friends and

  walking into the theater it was an

  amazing experience in and of itself

  there was these two little girls that

  were running up the street alongside me

  and they ran up and they ran to the

  movie poster they started shrieking and

  they ran up to the ticket box and they

  started shrieking and they were jumping

  up and down like absolutely gleeful just

  to be able to go and see this the movie

  theater was not all women unfortunately

  we did not get one of those showings

  where I am but the women kind of took it

  over it was a very vocal audience but

  sort of in the best way possible there

  was a lot of cheering for the fanservice

  we had with a lovely scene with Chris

  Pine and we'll talk later

  we talked more about it later but it was

  very vocally appreciated by the women in

  my audience fans and watches so many

  fans of watches in that theater and

  everyone was just powered up like every

  single fight scene every single amazing

  moment from Wonder Woman you could just

  hear the appreciation in the audience

  just everyone absolutely losing it so I

  was really excited you know I think

  we've had a lot of women in superhero

  movies this is the first time I felt

  that this was a very focused female

  superhero movie that was really designed

  to empower women

  and make them feel really like the stars

  of this you know we've talked a little

  bit but like he always feels like the

  second fiddle guy sort of comes in and

  takes a lot of the space in these movies

  but the journey was entirely about

  Wonder Woman and I just came out of

  there feeling absolutely fired up and

  amazing it was so exciting and I loved

  it mm-hmm

  I was kind of amazed actually that our

  guy I went to an independent theater -

  not crowded it was kind of a weird time

  from time of day but it was it was a

  fairly gender balanced group but there

  were a lot of little girls and as the

  movie went on they got louder and louder

  and louder and just a happier and

  cheering and clapping and everybody

  clapped at the end of the movie it's not

  often I've been in a theater here in

  Indiana where that happens so well

  Steven I know you saw this once with me

  and I don't think either one of us

  really knew anything about it going in

  did you I the only thing I knew about

  Wonder Woman is Lynda Carter because

  used to watch Wonder Woman when I was

  five or six and I had such a crush on

  her years before I knew why I should

  have a crush on her you're Canadian me

  and then the then I've played Lego

  dimensions where the Wonder Woman is a

  character this is so I and then there

  was this movie Andy and you told me

  Erica that we're going to this movie

  because you know it's important that we

  support this with the dolls I said sir

  absolutely let's watch it I had never

  seen a DC movie before of the current DC

  EU so already it's the best DC movie

  that I've seen uh technically it's also

  the worst though I suppose it is but if

  it was on the Marvel Universe B of which

  I've seen every single one this would be

  the best Marvel movie I think I just

  need to um it was really really good I

  think by about twenty or twenty five

  minutes and I was hooked

  um and and I I just adored that film

  tube it's possibly the most out of the

  three of us you me and our friend

  Annette which kind of surprised me I

  thought you were both really full-on on

  board with this as much as I was but I

  think um my level of enthusiasm talked

  to yours

  we walked out of the theater and Annette

  and I were kind of nodding like yeah I

  was those all right and Steven was like

  he had stars in his eyes and he was

  floating through the party so well Chris

  Pine is a handsome man it'd be a fair

  yeah yeah this is this is the first

  female superhero starring film since

  well I mean I guess technically we had


  but I was going to say Supergirl 1984 um

  so this is this is this was a big deal

  from even before like the moment that it

  got greenlit and not only is it

  starring gal gadot a whose name I have

  been pronouncing wrong a lot so I

  apologize and I didn't run that on

  purpose but it's also directed by a

  woman which i think is kind of an

  interesting thing so we've got some

  double standards that have been that

  it's been sort of subjected to even

  before it hit the theaters and even

  before anybody anybody saw it

  I mean you you'd be surprised by some of

  the reviews you know there's a lot of

  positive reviews and certainly the movie

  has made enough money that I don't think

  anybody is seriously going to say that

  this wasn't successful but there's

  already people attributing the success

  of the movie to Zack Snyder there are

  people saying that Jenkins is being

  hired as a sort of political correctness

  nod and that they can't attribute the

  success of the movie to her so I'm sorry

  no no no the feel of the movie is

  obviously obviously a woman's viewpoint

  year was not a single shot in those

  fight scenes of deliberate let's get a

  close-up of her boobs let's get a

  close-up you know of this part of her

  body the warriors the Amazons fought

  like warriors fought just you know there

  was no titillation there was nothing

  about those fight scenes designed to say

  lookie here look at the girls yeah and

  you know it it takes so long for that to

  sink in because we are so used to how

  you know it goes back to comics how a

  lot of male artists draw women in comics

  that's been transferred a good deal too

  the movie universe to the Marvel movies

  of you know showing off the pretty

  woman's figure instead of showing off

  that she can kick ass it's going to be

  the the top grossing movie this weekend

  I'm really excited about that because

  that is math that's that's an objective

  thing that's not something like oh

  you're just saying you like it because

  because you're a girl or it gives you

  like her because this or because that

  like you can't dismiss math math is not

  math was not subject to I don't know in

  this society we can try want to but this

  is one of the few things where like you

  can't just chalk this up to me myself

  going well I really liked it well yeah

  but there's no but I'm not alone here

  right this is not a cult movie this is

  not a movie that lives underground and

  gets rediscovered 20 years later this is

  a hit out of the box yeah and it's all

  the one cautionary the one cautionary

  thing I'll say is that not to bring

  anybody down but just to fire you up for

  the next battles that need to be fought

  if that Hollywood sort of has a history

  of taking movies that were successfully

  directed by women on their first go and

  giving subsequent movies to male

  directors this happened with Twilight

  even though you know shattered records

  for the time raised a ton of money and

  was seen you know generally as the

  success subsequent movies getting passed

  on to male directors and the female

  director getting quite a bit of negative

  press related to that of saying that you

  know just couldn't work with them moving

  forward so keep fighting so that patty

  Jenkins can direct everything yeah

  whatever comes next after Justice League

  like you know we get the November

  Justice League and then she directs the

  next one yeah that's like I will will

  get to my Zack Snyder issue later I have

  a Syracuse's statement on Zack Snyder

  but but the things that I loved in this

  movie were clearly all patty Jenkins and

  all filtered to that sensibility and I

  have a friend who she doesn't she's not

  a big movie person she's really not a

  big superhero movie person and I said

  you know you might enjoy this partly

  because I mean the superior stuff is

  superhero it's great

  fine it's the human stuff and it's there

  is a believability and plausibility in

  everything about the human characters

  and then in Diana's discovering the

  human world that you don't get in a lot

  of superhero movies and I mean just the

  range of types of characters that

  surround her in this movie when have we

  seen that in a superhero movie it's it's

  really lovely and then there's then

  there's a little bit that's Zack Snyder

  II so what she does a great job at the

  the action sequence it's usually a

  sequences in comic book movies bore me

  to tears because they usually have an

  inevitable outcome which is usually

  nobody wins or nobody loses and they're

  just you know smashing parked cars for a

  few minutes before before it ends here

  there's almost like a billeted style to

  it where they just sort of slows down

  sort of hover in midair we focus on a

  move a little bit and then BOOM returns

  to like normal speed again like it never

  felt dizzying or disorientating or

  boring in any way there was always just

  enough of those little moves put into

  fight scene so that always just was

  super interesting and fun to watch with

  there are moments in there that almost

  look like Alex Ross paintings come to

  life which comparison if you don't know

  Alex Ross go look him up you know you've

  seen his stuff he does all the covers

  for aster city he did Kingdom Come and

  and it's amazing to me that they managed

  to get that look in that style in a lot

  of the fight sequences of this and a lot

  of the sort of slowed down almost glory

  shots right yeah sure I gorgeous I think

  another important thing is your rights

  even they had consequences it's not just

  bashing up cars for five minutes and

  then we move on every fight scene had

  consequences and they showed the true

  sort of human horror of all the

  destruction that they're going through I

  think my big problem with Marvel movies

  lately has it's been you know one big

  city destruction after another and you

  just sort of move on and there hasn't

  been a lot of focus on the horror that

  they must be witnessing there

  and Wonder Woman wasn't afraid of that

  it didn't shy away from that it really

  focused in on that horrific element to

  every single fight scene which is in

  keeping with the tone of the movie you

  know setting it during World War one and

  having the whole reason for Diana to

  emerge from Fennessy era to try and stop

  this huge horrific war that they didn't

  they didn't sugarcoat it that was the

  thing that I really noticed in this was

  aftermath there's there's a fair amount

  of like aftermath and consequence that's

  very visible and very upfront which I

  thought was impressive but the thing I

  liked about the fight scenes was they

  were longer shots yes yes usually I end

  up checking out of fight scenes because

  you're showing me a fraction of a second

  and then a new angle or a new place

  where fighting is happening and then you

  come back and Herc and jerk and like I

  have a TD and I can't keep up and so I

  end up just sort of letting it go by and

  not really paying attention until the

  fighting stops and there's no

  consequences so we just go back to

  whatever story is happening so I really

  liked the the speed manipulation and I

  also liked getting to actually see what

  was going on and understand what was

  going on and then see and understand

  those consequences afterwards like

  altogether it was much more impactful to

  watch the fighting in this film than in

  a lot of others it's it's the same

  reason Fred Astaire insisted on

  full-frame long shot take camera takes

  for all the dance sequences in his films

  because you need to see the whole thing

  it's not elements right you don't get

  anything from that you don't get

  anything from quick cuts you need to see

  the whole performance and and in your

  brain realize what went into making that

  right yeah and it's a problem with a lot

  of superhero movies these days and just

  a lot of action movies these days is

  that it's so much quick cutting and

  there's no you you you don't have to be

  decent at this to be able to pull that

  off right yeah you can mask a lot with

  with a lot of quick cutting and I tend

  to be the first person to say that

  action sequences are boring of any kind

  yes and yet honestly I think they were

  my favorite parts of the film and I mean

  I kind of walked out going you know I

  wonder if all of the other superhero

  films like had all of the dude heroes

  with long flowing hair and

  skirts and super kicky boots if I would

  appreciate them a little more and that

  might help but I do think that it was

  the the framing and the the sense of

  place that you have in in each one of

  the action sequences that made me more

  rooted in it so before we before we talk

  more about the consequences of the

  action sequences we should probably blow

  the spoiler horn but before that is

  there anything else that anybody wants

  to say is sort of an opening statement

  type of a thing quick shout out you know

  we've mentioned here and there the

  acting but I think gal gadot and Chris

  Pine Kelly earlier mentioned balance and

  I think that's just such a key element

  in the writing and the performances that

  the actors brought to the roles because

  you have this amazing balance of things

  that make up Wonder Woman you've got all

  of this education and wisdom from

  centuries of growing up with the Amazons

  and you smash that against her total

  ignorance of the rest of the outside

  world and just the her innocence and the

  delight she takes in so many things that

  she sees compared to you know the things

  that bother her or you know are horrify

  her and meet Chris Pine that this Steve

  Trevor I love this Steve Trevor

  um again not taking over the movie he is

  just enough of a flirt um he is smart

  he is capable he's not played to be some

  doofy sidekick that it drags her down

  they wind up making a really good team

  together and it all just balances so

  very well hey everybody it's Jason I'm

  here remotely it's going well so far

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  well I think that's a very good note too

  to bring us to the other part of the

  podcast which will balance out this

  first pot part and that it after the

  spoiler horn so if you don't be spoiled

  go see the movie really just go go see

  it go

  okay so I know that quite often when we

  talk about movies on this podcast Jason

  sort of takes us through them

  sequentially after only one viewing for

  some of us that's going to be a tough

  thing to do but I do think that we've we

  should start with with kind of the

  framing element we have the the very

  beginning the very end of the movie

  which I assume is sort of set and around

  the same time as the Man of Steel and um

  Batman versus other film doesn't exist

  those those I thought it was slightly

  after the film we dare not speak its


  mm-hmm yeah that one and we do have that

  which I didn't understand what it was

  and I didn't know that if it was if it

  was following on to a conversation since

  I didn't see that movie that we don't

  want a name but she gets this really

  cool picture which later on at the end

  of the movie we find out that it's her

  and and all of her buddies from World

  War one which was kind of a I thought

  that was a nice frame II touch to sort

  of ground it in the world of the DC

  movies that exist now in a way that

  absolutely makes no difference to the

  story that's being told in this film

  right right yeah basically I went

  looking YouTube very handily has a few

  compilations of just the Wonder Woman

  minutes from that movie so you know

  that's all I needed

  that's all I needed but yes apparently

  Lex Luthor had found this photo and

  Bruce Wayne managed to get a copy of it

  and then you know sends it sends it to

  her to say you know found this why here

  the story sometime and as you said it's

  a really neat little framing device for

  the people who are in into comics and

  into the DC world and it does not

  distract the people who aren't sure

  what's going on I I was ok with the

  photograph and everything else about the

  sequence was like shut up and start my

  movie I don't I don't give it I don't

  give a flying something about any of

  this cake uh because yeah and flying

  dropkick yeah it was short enough for me

  it was short enough not said it was

  short it got it got out of the way I

  didn't I didn't need any of the

  narration you know that was extraneous I

  was okay with it I knew nothing

  you know of this universe going and so

  someone going into this this movie on

  this universe I was perfectly okay with

  the amount spent on the sort of the

  prologue and then the the origin story

  aspect of it I thought that was right

  nicely patient you know they they kind

  of had to do it because they've already

  set her in our present day so there had

  to be some kind of explanation and some

  kind of setup in there yeah I get it I

  get it I just don't think any of the

  other movies exist so one of the things

  I liked about how they did that with the

  with the case was a Wayne industries

  travel that's all yeah yeah great even

  if you don't know about that film um you

  still know like we've seen this other

  ones that Batman and then like you can

  kind of like you can kind of put

  together like oh that's right like she's

  not she doesn't run with the avengers

  she runs with like Batman in them so

  like I felt like it was a nice way to

  set it up because even people who don't

  necessarily know about the other movies

  would still be able to be like oh that's

  Batman and like know that I thought that

  that was really nice and I don't know

  about the rest of you the last trailer

  before our showing was Justice League so

  it so it was sort of a little bit of Yap

  teaser to that it was kind of funny

  because I felt like I was watching the

  trailer for the sequel before I've

  watched the movie that I'm there to see

  in the first place

  right and I and I again I much rather

  wanted to see the movie I was there to

  see but I was very curious you know what

  was in the case like what could Batman

  be sending her like I don't know to me

  it was it was sort of interesting to

  figure out like what that was going to

  be so I was I was interested in that

  first bit but when I first started

  hearing the narration I sort of thought

  like is this going to start like Lord of

  the Rings where we have to spend five

  minutes listening to a disembodied voice

  tell me what's what before we get in

  because like I don't know how much of

  this I need to know and then the armored

  truck rolled up and then I was sort of

  interested like what is Wayne industries

  doing you know and so for me it was a

  little bit different so I was at like my

  moment of dread was probably much

  shorter than shorter than your statement

  and I have the the thing with the

  narration was it's like okay well who

  this is one of the things I learned when

  I started writing one-person shows who

  is the person talking to and at the end

  we find out that none of that narration

  is in the email to Bruce so who is she

  talking to we don't that was just hurt I

  thought that was just sort of her inner

  monologue her her sort of I mean it

  could be it just didn't connect to

  anything I think you could do that

  without any narration whatsoever it

  would still work it would actually work

  better I think hmm maybe well let's

  let's jump into the to the mascara and

  her her life with the Amazons it starts

  off with an adorable adorable child oh

  yes my god is very low sotius little

  diana who really really wants to fight

  and as soon as she starts peeking over

  the wall and and sees her her aunt

  played by robin wright as a entire I did

  not recognize I'm still talking myself

  that I did not right and I recognized

  her right away and was just like I'm

  right cuz I didn't know she was going to

  be in this I was like she's in this and

  then not only was she in it but she was

  playing an older woman with you know by

  scars and wrinkles and you know like

  somewhat you know flabby arms a little

  bit edge not very not very but she

  looked like an older woman who was

  absolutely kicking asked just and no

  question all of it mmm-hmm all of it

  yeah yeah the casting of the Amazons in

  general there were star athletes hidden

  among the like there's a prize-winning

  boxer in there all of these women again

  female director directing women warriors

  not women just dressed up in cute

  leather armor and standing around

  imposing right and when I think of like

  all of the fighting that happens like

  one of the moments I think of as Robin

  Wright when she flips through the air

  and shoots the three arrows at once oh

  like that is so ha every time remember

  I've seen it three times and every time

  like Brett like it was breathtaking

  every time and that's why that's one of

  those super standout moments is cuz like

  even when like I know I I know

  what's coming and I know what's coming

  because now seeing it twice before still

  like huh every time when like launched

  up into the air and it's just amazing

  and watching that was I know it was a

  little bit 3d service but at the same

  time holy Wow it's just one of the like

  iconic when I think of like the the

  still frames from this movie that's one

  of the first ones that comes to mind I

  think one of the things that really

  struck me about this was sort of the

  diversity in the background right you

  know they really work should bring in

  various different types of women from

  all races and ethnicities and while I'll

  be the first to say I loved the Warriors

  to pieces they also show they also

  showed a fuller richer the mascara you

  know you had senators you had teachers

  you had academics you had this whole

  society that was there that women were

  active in all parts of it of course

  because there's only women but how often

  do you get to see that sort of ancient

  Greek style society where women are in

  all of those roles and you're not seeing

  you know old white men with big long

  beards taking on all of those positions

  so that to me was just amazing that they

  made it so rich and we took the time to

  fully develop this world that they were

  living in I was actually surprised at

  how much of the movie took place there I

  yes yeah I mean because they think it's

  not like I showed her entire youth and

  on all of her growing up but they gave

  you quite a grounding and who this

  person was from from a child who is you

  know really interested in fighting to a

  teenager to the woman that we eventually

  see absolutely kicking butt you know

  better than anybody else and you know I

  liked that they just sort of dribbled

  out hints about what her actual history

  was and we sort of you know for those of

  us who didn't already know discovered it

  along with her and I recognized that the

  comic books have had multiple different

  versions of her origin story depending

  on where you are in the comic book canon

  but I liked that the way that that it

  was sort of dribbled out before we even

  get the plane crash

  and and before things start start

  happening on the island it was it was a

  very smart way of starting a very

  meditative contemplative you kind of got

  into the life of the island which was a

  lovely way to establish everything and

  and I think this was a very good is this

  might be my favorite version of the

  origin it just kind of makes sense to me

  the way some of them did not yeah that's

  I'm very very relieved that they did not

  go the route of Diana entering this

  competition to see who would win the

  right to take Steve back and masking


  and because her mother forbade her to

  you know they went to it more directly

  you know her mother saying look you

  can't do this

  and Diana basically turning around and

  saying well yes I'm going to try so yeah

  I love how they handled the decision for

  her to go out and take take Steve Trevor

  back to the real world yeah she had to

  Shannon she had agency throughout the

  whole first part you know she was doing

  what she wanted to do which was nice

  she wasn't sort of pushed into it or

  like forced into it that was her choice

  and I loved how her mother and the

  leader of the of the the colony or

  whatever attended the was it called the

  island the the island of the Amazon the

  island Amazon's was was you know sad and

  that she was going but knew that she

  couldn't stop her I really like that

  aspect of it

  mm-hmm yeah and I think that it was

  important to establish the place that

  she came from and the person that she

  was before leaving because so much of

  the rest of the movie is about how she

  deals with the world outside of her

  Island and if you didn't have a good

  grounding in that it wouldn't it

  wouldn't play out quite as well so the

  moment that you see this airplane fly

  through and crash I mean that's kind of

  a an almost jarring moment because I had

  sort of been lulled into a sense of this

  place so well that I was like huh

  yeah this is this is nice I I like the

  blue skies and the and then the first

  time they cut to the outside and you see

  like with the boats out there and I was

  just it was incredibly jarring

  we charring which I guess it was for her

  to because she never she never seen a

  man before yeah one thing I did like

  about how they established the mascara

  was that they leaned very very subtly

  into sort of the queer themes of this

  whole island ruck has been explicit in

  his run that the mascara was going to be

  a place without heteronormativity so

  marriage wouldn't be called gay marriage

  on an island full of women it's just

  going to be marriage there was there was

  one moment when Robin Wright is killed

  where you have her mother and Diana

  coming but there's also another random

  unnamed woman who comes up and my first

  thought when I saw that was wife that's

  definitely got to be her wife mm-hmm and

  uh there was also that really just

  everything about the boat scene when

  Diana and Steve was yeah excellent the

  the whole line of men are necessary for

  procreation but unnecessary for pleasure

  that was the line where my audience

  completely lost their like all the girls

  were yelling one girl was like yeah girl

  our theatre did the same thing I've got

  a grin as about to split my face and

  chips just sort of looking down I just

  laughed yeah that's about right

  I think I'm funny but still I love the

  one review that was like confusingly she

  says this it's like without even looking

  I'm like oh that review was written by a

  man yeah you like by the Hat I do ever

  reviewed it for the Guardian jeepers

  oh yeah saw that go by and it was really

  awful one of the thing that might be my

  favorite images cuz it made me laugh the

  most this isn't true but it was one of

  the ones that mention something that we

  mentioned earlier is a good thing which

  was they didn't shoot her all sexy like

  at any point and not one of the like

  things against it in this review which

  should tell all you need to know about

  the survey

  her for drools or something I don't

  remember exactly what the phrase was but

  hey it was grammatically awful B it was

  an awful image to try to put in

  someone's head and see this movie didn't

  need that unless you're going to start

  doing that to Thor so yeah yeah I think

  I think that review like referred to

  like it ignored the SNM origins of the

  comic or something bla bla bla like so

  have most following versions of the

  comment exactly and I gotta say there is

  no way to shoot gal gadot poorly so I

  mean what is his problem and do you want

  proof of that she was five months

  pregnant when they did some of the

  reshoots and they green-screen to her

  Tommy so that they could get the the

  shots in so yeah think about that for a

  minute some of what she was doing there

  was more than halfway through a

  pregnancy and she still yeah Wow Wow

  well and and some of it was her fight

  and double she's not actually the

  greatest stage combat person but they

  did a very good job of masking that I

  believed it yeah yeah yeah it was

  totally believable yeah I liked Alec

  Guinness as obi-wan to and he wasn't the

  best sword fighter he was great in this

  before we leave the mascara which we

  probably should before too long or this

  podcast is going to be as long as the

  movie and we don't want that we can't go

  back yeah we we have to talk about the

  the purple hot tub scene we've mentioned

  to watch but I please let's talk about

  that scene I think I think it is

  important that you know we we mentioned

  that we we haven't we didn't have shots

  of gal gadot that were all like you know

  cheesecake II and and we didn't we

  really didn't have terribly cheese or

  beef cakey I guess shots of Chris Pine

  either but he was the one that was sort

  of the most objectified spell oh yeah

  it's certainly the most exposed how did

  you how did your theaters react to that

  I'm curious Oh ours how old are you

  Larry Asst yes and lots of giggles um

  and especially when because because it's


  very carefully in the beginning and then

  when it goes to the full shot and you

  could hear kind of gasps in the back of

  the room going oh my god they did the

  full shot yeah and and but you know and

  again played it beautifully under played

  you know it was just it was exactly the

  right tone for it it was there were very

  appreciative women and if you should

  have met in my audience had the sale

  yeah yep and even the you know that the

  careful framing of her looking down and

  you can't see what she's looking at and

  saying what's that and of course we you

  know mentioned the watch and and it's oh

  whoa it's a it's a watch and and that's

  that is sort of the first moment that

  you get a little bit of of the adorable

  sort of naivete I guess that's not

  really the word that I want innocent yes

  search for innocence about some of the

  things that happen off of off of her

  Island and you know you let this little

  little thing tell you what to do and

  when to do it and that was it was which

  has another double meaning to you let

  that little thing tell you what to do

  yeah and I gotta say I am not at all

  inclined to that way and even I kind of

  went wow he's pretty he is in fact above

  average what's the great me share that


  that got a great got a great laugh in

  our in our theater as well that day yep

  so of course she decides for herself

  that the you know mom you can't tell me

  what I do I do what I want I'm gonna go

  and and decides to leave which and I I I

  didn't know if she was just going to

  sneak off and I was really glad that she

  didn't because she got the goodbye scene

  with you know all these people that she

  is leaving behind forever and ever

  yeah I actually have a question for you

  guys about that because this is the

  thing that I've wondered about and I'm

  sort of taking this informal poll so mom

  says uh you know that if you leave you

  may never return now does she mean you

  can't or does she mean it's possible you

  won't because I couldn't really tell if

  what she meant was your

  check it out is one way or if she meant

  it's possible that once you leave you

  know you you may never be able to find

  your way back here and I couldn't really

  tell what she meant I took it as

  possible yes I took it as possible yeah

  that you might not come back

  yeah and I thought so too because I

  thought the I thought it was carefully

  written to sort of leave that door open

  and certainly the way the line was

  delivered I thought I thought that there

  was a bit of an emphasis on May so I

  didn't think that meant that the door

  was closed which makes me happy because

  I would I mean honestly I would be happy

  with an entire movie

  I'm Thomas Kira I would have a I would

  totally have a rogue one or yeah road

  one style movie of of just stuff that

  happens on the mascara like the the war

  we heard about with the book mm-hmm yeah

  you know like the book was a really nice

  sequence which i think is probably not

  going to get the attention it deserves

  instantly yeah I think she probably

  realized it at some point while Diana

  was out in the real world so to speak

  she would discover her true identity and

  her true destiny and you know as a god

  who would want to come back to you know

  the cocoon again so to speak I think

  there'd be a much greater world for her

  out there and I loved her question who

  would I be if I stayed right yes and it

  might be metaphorical too you know right

  the fact that she is a God you you may

  never come back as and you may never

  come back to this philosophy this world

  as a metaphysical space its existence

  exactly we can't go home again and and I

  can't I can't imagine that they would

  totally close the door or never

  returning there as a plot device but it

  it works either way it works if they

  want to go back it works if they never

  go back I mean it did seem kind of I was

  interested that it that everybody from

  the Army was just or the Navy I guess

  was was able to just plow right in there

  I assume that they were protected by

  something but I guess they're just

  disguised is that the case because who

  else it's that that sort of a cloaking

  device or you know the fog right yeah so

  it seems like if she could find her way

  back to that same location she might be

  able to just warn her back in but but as

  you said Steven you know she probably

  won't won't be the same person

  regardless you know it's like when you

  go home from college for the first time


  not the same person anymore right

  mm-hmm-hmm so yes then we get the lovely

  lovely boat scene with the two of them

  and yes the whole and that was beautiful

  I mean that was he sleep next to me that

  was that was like straight out of a

  preston sturges film right just this

  very just crackling comic dialogue but

  also human and and just filled with

  character and and I mean even his sort

  of fumbling and going well well well I'm

  above average right you know just sort

  of like trying trying not to be the

  matinee idol right nice yep and I knew I

  knew that Chris Pine could do comedy

  because he he is funny in in a lot of

  places in the Star Trek films but this

  was a different kind of comedy which I

  really appreciated

  I will admit that I I had trouble

  differentiating Steve here from from

  Kirk because that's the only thing I'd

  ever seen him as so I really did keep

  seeing him as Kirk most of the way

  through the movie but that doesn't mean

  I enjoyed his performance any less he

  was still he was really good and no he

  wasn't playing exactly the same

  character it was just in my mind but it

  was moments like yeah that helped yeah

  and I had the opposite effect I kept

  marveling about you know that you know

  this is not Kirk like this is heat Steve

  Trevor he's got this totally new

  character going and I love it this this

  is I always think of this when I see

  things like this my mother used to say

  this about some actors she and she

  thought that about George Clooney she

  would totally have thought this about

  Chris Pine that they are just there's a

  performance that where they become a a

  movie star and this might be it it's

  it's that same kind of you know it's a

  very casual very you know totally at

  ease Clooney has the same kind of

  comfort in these kind of roles yeah it's

  it's it's it shows that you know if

  they're any guys watching this movie

  that you don't need to do what many

  generations of men have done well

  actually do you do need to do what many

  generations of men

  told women over the decades and

  millennia is to know your place I there

  is a place for men and you know he's not

  subservient he's not as you said earlier

  ELISA he's not weak he is strong at his

  role but he knows where he isn't and

  that's where Diana comes in um for me I

  think I mean I I love I love the movie

  and everything else but I think honestly

  the the role of Steve Trevor and

  especially the way that Chris Pine plays

  it kind of reminds me of Han Solo in the

  first Star Wars film and that there's a

  lot of mystic mystic mumbo jumbo going

  on and like you know Amazon I mean Korea

  is a super serious place where not the

  humor goes down there's a lot of I must

  find Ares in that sort of thing and he

  sort of levels it he sort of brings it

  down to sort of like just a just a wry

  amount of cynicism just to keep everyone

  just sort of grounded a little bit and

  keep it real a little bit and that's

  that was successful to the movie if they

  you know it prevented it from becoming

  too much of a DC Philip let's put it

  that way yeah I think when I'm cleaning

  it I think one of the things I really

  loved about that scene is that Diana is

  uh earnest and not hung up on social

  convention the way Steve Trevor is but

  she's not innocent either you know

  they're having all these conversations

  and she you know never seen a man before

  but she has read plenty she understands

  what goes on sometimes between men and

  women she just doesn't have the hang-up

  about sleeping alongside men right she

  knows what she does and does not want to

  do she's perfectly happy either way but

  practically speaking it's better for

  both of them to sleep up on the front of

  the boat where they can stretch out and

  I thought she played that whole

  fish-out-of-water thing with so much

  earnestness that it never felt like we

  were taking Diana down a peg by putting

  her in a new environment she was ready

  to learn she was ready to be out there

  but some things about what women are

  expected to do in the early 20th century

  are just incredibly silly

  and I like that they move the movie try

  cuz apparently that the comics starting

  World War two I like it yes World War

  one because there's yes you know what we

  don't even have the vote but by World

  War one and so there's on there's even

  more restrictions on women in that time

  period to post them out of their dress

  their duty in society that sort of thing

  so there's even more barriers to sort of

  smash down I think if if you know that's

  the the you know always trying to sort

  of like stifle the reveal of her costume

  until until the grand moment in no-man's

  land it feels more natural here because

  all your barely dress - you know

  nineteen seventeen or eighteen of not

  dress yeah yeah yeah what's gonna be

  like a USO two or something if she was

  wearing that outfit in World War two so

  there would be as as out of place if you

  know what I mean right yes right yeah

  that was a good move I think the World

  War one move was brilliant it would it's

  kind of funny because the very first

  trailer I saw I was like wait a minute

  that's World War one isn't it and then I

  second-guess myself going like no no she

  started in World War two and then yes

  they did choose World War one number one

  distances itself from Captain America a

  bit which I think was a good idea and

  number two as you all said you know the

  the division between gender roles much

  stronger and also the fact that World

  War one was the first global modern

  conflict killing people by the millions

  that ties in with uh with the mythos

  that they used of Ares causing all of

  these problems and Wonder Woman having

  to go try to kill Ares I think you know

  World War two yes horrible and massive

  in its own way but that was the second

  time around and people had at least a

  grasp of of death on this scale by then

  what I think World War one fit in with

  the themes better that they created with

  the Wonder Woman origin story with her

  conflict with Ares but also with with

  the whole thing of you know Ares idea

  that I don't actually do this it's them

  they do this and so it doesn't matter if

  you kill me because they'll keep doing

  this so that kind of

  works to go all right you know not to

  get ahead of ourselves plot wise here

  but at the end when yes we've stopped it

  in World War one is over and we don't

  even call it World War one it's the

  great war to end all wars and of course

  it doesn't and we know that and the

  other the other thing I think which was

  a very smart decision on their part was

  at the end when Ares well see again I'm

  getting hit myself Franco but at the

  very end when Ares has been dispatched

  and everyone is sort of released from

  that spell for a little bit and you see

  the the Americans and the German

  soldiers kind of relieved and everything

  it's a little easier to watch German

  soldiers like that when they're not

  wearing swastikas that's what I was

  thinking was moving to World War one

  meant no swastika oh yeah yeah yeah and

  teenagers boys yeah and young teenage

  boys because that World War one was that

  the first one to take an entire

  generation of men and throw them into

  this conflict and one thing that I liked

  as as as a Canadian is that oftentimes

  Hollywood will turn World War 2 into an

  American war true whereas water 1

  America ride very late

  this is unapologetically set in Belgium

  you know it's a Belgian village it gets

  destroyed there are Germans uh all about

  Europe exactly it's all about Europe and

  I thought it was a from an American

  movie that was that was somewhat bold to

  sort of like take that decision to move

  it away from the origins of the comic

  and place it in a tear in an era that

  most Americans are a lot less familiar

  with Kelly what were you going to say

  yeah the thing I liked about also doing

  that was I feel like if they had tried

  to do this with World War two Steve

  comes out of World War two and tries to

  sort of sell them on helping him stop

  the war that it's going to be a harder

  sell because like you guys have done

  this once already and I felt like that

  moment when he said you know millions of

  people women and children slaughtered

  weapons like nothing you have ever seen

  it's the end of the world

  that only could have been effective in

  World War one because you know by the

  time you get to World War two everything

  has to have an asterisk

  I know we said this once before but now

  we mean it you know I know we tried to

  tell you it was the war to end all wars

  but here we are again and so I really

  felt like that was one of the smart

  things to do with it and then also I

  felt like the current political climate

  and I don't know how much this entered

  into it but you know now with less

  swastikas was a super smart move on

  their part because it doesn't derail the

  discussion of the film right into

  something political whether you're

  talking about politics that are politics

  now and I thought that that was also a

  really smart way to just sidestep all of

  that entirely and I really liked how

  they did that and I liked that it wasn't

  here and I liked that it wasn't an

  American war and Americans charging in

  to save the day and like when you look

  at who charges in you know the little

  fellowship that gets together to go off

  and stop the war is a woman who is

  basically not from Earth you know I mean

  only technically in that she's made of

  clay um you know so we've got her we

  have an American we have a Scotsman and

  we have a Native American who has I

  think one of the a very nice moment with

  Diana in his own right when they have

  the discussion at the campfire that we

  could talk about right and I and Sammy

  who was from I don't know where but I

  think his Egyptian Turkey I was from

  Turkey yeah okay oh well thanks oh and

  it was kind of neat that that little

  band because you know first I'm

  wondering what I could do do we need

  this we had you know Captain America had

  his ragtag group of folks do we need

  this and then I went looking online

  that's actually a callback to a DC comic

  property the Black Hawk squadron and

  world war two so it's like it's an

  easter egg I'll allow it and it's a

  really good Easter Egg yeah and I really

  enjoyed watching the chemistry between

  all of them like again Jay casting like

  this was a really fun group of people I

  could totally imagine them after

  spending all day shooting the scene

  where they celebrate with beers that

  they all go out and celebrate with beers

  like I could envision

  that one of my favorite moments is when

  when they're talking they're sort of

  getting to know one another in samia's

  you know I always wanted to be an actor

  but I am the wrong the wrong race I'm

  the wrong person color yeah we're on

  color and I immediately I wanted to see

  a movie with the rest of them again I

  just want to see them doing stuff

  because they all of them were great

  characters and he was delightful and

  that is such a heartbreaking line and it

  is a very meta line yes in its I think I

  think that that that group and Diana's

  place in it is really important to to

  show us how she is discovering the world

  outside and and you know later on when

  she gets to the point where she's having

  her conversation slash showdown with

  Ares the the feelings that she's

  developed for these people in the way

  that she has come to know them it's a

  big part of how and why she's able to

  make the decision she does toward the

  end so yeah the the travel along with

  with these folks is is important in that

  those relationships deepen as she goes

  but I think it's I think the film does a

  nice job of showing the relationships

  they're sort of blooming I mean they

  already have their little their little

  team and she's getting us there for the

  fresh part but when you see them

  reacting to her jumping up and you know

  running across no-man's land which was

  an amazing amazing yes it's it was that

  was just such a cool thing because you

  get to see them sort of discovering what

  she really is and each person's reaction

  to that and then the fact that you know

  it's a it's a war movie trope that

  battle brings people together so yes

  though when they're having the beers

  afterwards and they're celebrating it it

  feels earned and it feels like they have

  taken a step on there in their

  relationship it's great and one of the

  things I loved about them was they

  didn't care like that that she was a

  girl they didn't like and well I won't

  say they didn't care but it didn't seem

  to matter to them that she was that they

  were gonna drop her off at the war that

  she was going to go off and do some sort

  of fighting or something like they just

  sort of took her at face value and then

  when that value changed like

  they didn't and I thought that that was

  really great and wasn't like they sort

  of treated her with kid gloves or

  anything yeah you know like before they

  date yet it

  they internalized she can do that Wow

  okay let's use this one she made small

  crab for that guy in the bar yeah they

  realized she can handle it but then even

  after that one of the small things I

  noticed in the movie is when they're

  headed to the boat to go meet chief as

  they're walking and they're having the

  conversation about a liar a murderer a

  smuggler Charlie keeps sticking his arm

  out to her side to keep people from

  bumping into her mm-hmm yeah and I

  thought that was just a really kind

  thing and that seemed like like they

  were very friendly even then you know

  that he was like you you know that he

  had a certain amount of respect for her

  you know like as a woman like he would

  have opened the door for her you know or

  whatever I felt like they they sort of

  were we're still kind of formal and he

  was kind of you know trying to make sure

  that she wasn't getting bumped into by

  all these people and I thought that was

  a really a very small moment that was

  very nice that I really enjoyed and one

  I loved when they're in the town once

  they've saved the town and they're

  celebrating and we mean it's not like we

  take time to get to know anybody there

  but we get to know the town we get to

  know the the atmosphere of it and the

  feeling of it and that comes back in

  devastating manner later in the movie

  yes oh my god

  oh that comes again to the feeling of

  there are consequences to things yes

  they really didn't shy away from making

  us fall in love with this little town

  where they found a moment of peace in

  this war and this was Diana's big first

  triumph against this war of saving these

  people saving this town and that all got

  taken away so it's a very good moment of

  a human tragedy in the loss of the

  village and the personal tragedy for

  Diana to lose all of these people that

  she had just saved you know I thought

  that was so well done I can't believe

  they went there I can't believe they

  they really committed to that and didn't

  back off from it and I think it was also

  a kind of twofold important scene for

  developing the

  relationship between Diana and Steve

  because during the battle you actually

  have him running out with his with his

  buddies and you know getting that big

  piece of metal and doing the shield

  thing so it showed us he seen them do it

  before I love that bit too he was that

  he attention to to the battle enough and

  recognized that this is this is a thing

  that she is capable of this is the thing

  that I am not capable of I am literally

  going to bend down and and kneel so that

  she can do this thing that that is

  amazing and then I catch you steps on my

  back yep yes girls continue kicking ass

  right there and the beauty of it is it's

  both you know saying here I can be

  subservient and you know you can take

  the primary role and it's also saying

  I'm a really smart tactical yeppers

  right to do this as a team player and

  that's the thing you know yes she's

  taking the brunt of it but they are

  functioning as a team one of the things

  I also liked about that was the way they

  portrayed the Scottish sharpshooters

  PTSD riot in that everyone was super

  understanding and respectful of what it

  was that he was going through because

  that was also a major theme to come out

  of world war one is that you have all of

  these young men coming back with this

  incredible trauma and they don't really

  know how to cope with that how to deal

  with that how to diagnose or treat it

  and a lot of survivors with PTSD and

  other forms of trauma were not treated

  very well

  very well

  all right as a result of it so it was

  kind of nice to see this movie address

  it in a way that this group of people is

  going to understand the trauma that he

  is going through and be respectful of

  him and find other ways to work around

  it I felt like that was another thing

  that um sort of gave Diana evidence that

  that man is more than what Ares is is

  chalking up to them and I read that was

  one of the things I really enjoyed was

  that moment where she looked over and

  all three of them are like I'm out and

  they just held hands and put their heads

  together and waited for the end and I

  was heartbroken for them and yes I felt

  like them taking care of Charlie like he

  just that he is who he is and and you

  know he doesn't mean anything by it and

  they were very understanding of him and

  like chief still has a good relationship

  with Steve you who took this from you

  his people and you know and Sammy's

  declaration of I'm just the wrong color

  like all of them it was exactly what

  Sammy said everyone's fighting their own

  battles just as you're fighting yours

  and I really liked that they all had

  this this love and affection for each

  other genuinely that Diana was getting

  and so the demonstration you know the

  love that she believes in is not just

  I'm in love with Steve it was they love

  each other and they care about each

  other because they'd had this moment in

  the village with all these other people

  you know in that moment when like chief

  is refusing payment and you know Sammy's

  bringing beers around to everybody and

  like all of those little things that

  happened in the village where we really

  get those moments that was really

  fundamentally kind and it was one of the

  parts of people that I like to think

  about and Charlie was singing he hasn't

  sung in years yeah it was it was it was

  kind of a breakthrough for for a lot of

  them in many ways and I had to say that

  I found the the sequence with Diana and

  Steve dancing at the end and then you

  know going up and getting on it on much

  more sweetly sincere than a lot of

  similar romantic scene

  in other movies whether they be

  superhero movies or not because yeah

  this is right this is a film where

  sincerity and earnestness are not

  treated as a syrupy they are just right

  for character and they are a part of my

  world and and they're surrounded by all

  of these you know this darkness and

  these battles that like we keep saying

  have actual consequences it feels like

  like amidst all of that it's a much more

  realistic feeling relationship right

  it's going under it's under played it's

  realistic it's human and I loved that

  you know

  it starts off where it's like well

  you're you're standing awfully close

  because evil yeah that's going to do

  this yeah that's wrong and in most

  movies and TV these days it would

  continue being witty and snappy and

  funny and it just gets very quiet as

  they both realize oh oh you are standing

  a little close and then we go to another

  place where they're going to stand a lot

  closer and there's no there's no

  smirking about it there's no hey look at

  me I'm above average right it's just

  this is the next step that we're taking

  and that's that right and and then it

  fades out to the next scene

  it doesn't dwell on that but what I love

  is that you know probably a typically a

  male directed film would probably have

  Steve Trevor go into that room close the


  crisp I've ever in this movie hesitates

  wonders where this is going is this is

  this what I think it is okay I guess it

  is now I close the door he you know he

  didn't assume he didn't assume that he

  was going to get some there he you know

  it was what Diana wanted and though

  that's when he closed the door that's

  what I really loved about that it was a

  beautiful moment yeah and it wasn't a

  prize you know Diana wasn't a prize that

  Steve had won and she was active had

  agency in that very much you know a

  driving participant in all of that

  happening which is just so so rare to

  see in any movie not just in the

  superhero genre that that was that

  absolutely made that scene for me mm-hmm

  okay well I want to we need to keep

  things really here so I want to take a

  sort of

  sharp left turn and actually talk about

  the the the villains in this this and

  I'm not talking about areas yet who

  actually did anybody else figure out who

  Aires was like and his first appearance

  on screen okay you know he had an

  inkling and then I forgot that I'd had

  that inkling until the reveal I see

  first basically you have David Thewlis

  in a movie so he's going to be a bad guy

  and because not always a bad guy well my

  name is Luton I know it's my problem I'm

  like reefer yeah whooping can't be the

  bad guy thing see I've been watching

  Fargo so I knew he was going to play uh

  and but but it was literally Chekhov's

  Aires they kept harping on it and

  harping on it and harping on it and with

  all of that you kind of go yes we're

  gonna find out that it's not really a

  big deal because we know that the second

  world war comes along but we're gonna

  run into him and it's probably gonna be

  David Thewlis I didn't mean to go Casey

  Kasem there but that's how I should be

  by surprise maybe I was clueless as to

  how superhero movies work like this but

  I I just thought he was a kindly I

  thought he was gonna like the Ray fine

  it's kind of like my work you in the

  body yeah and then like gives them the

  money and like yeah she can run it from

  my office and I've said I've said this


  it's totally from being a writer I I

  think about plot things and I think

  about it's it's when a movie can

  surprise me and still work in context of

  the movie that is a fantastic thing and

  it happens to me very rarely I loved

  this anyway but yeah I knew instantly as

  soon as he walks is like up there is

  well it's because it's got any surprises

  right for seeing it again is now that

  you know when you go back and you watch

  then all of it makes perfect sense when

  you go in knowing who were after yeah

  because of course he's gonna send them

  to mess it up because he thinks they're

  gonna mess it up in the wars gonna get

  to continue and then he and he totally

  is playing them from the moment they

  show up and when you start there then

  you know when you know going in that

  Lupin is the bad guy uh-un

  up you know when he for 21st walks into

  that war room where he's trying to talk

  about the Armistice and and he's so

  ineffectual at it right yeah it's

  getting interrupted and talked over and

  huh you know it's like no he's he's

  playing something but at first like I

  didn't at first I didn't see it that way

  at all and then when I watched it the

  second time I could see that um it

  wasn't surprised at the lady in the war

  room it was surprised that she's off the

  island now right no it's an interesting

  turn of events

  I assume she's here for me and I felt

  like that was a big moment for him which

  is you know the first time we see him

  because like that I feel like that's

  what's driving the rest of his actions

  through the movie is that he recognizes

  Diana and when you go in knowing that's

  who that's what's gonna happen

  it's a little bit different when you

  watch him because I was like okay I'm

  gonna watch him this time now that I

  know that he's the bad guy because you

  see the weird stuff happened with

  Ludendorff and all of the things that

  that he's up to and then he starts um

  you know huffing the little perfume

  samples and like his face starts to

  light up and you know he turns into like

  superpowers like I sort of like it was

  to me the first time through it was very

  obvious oh well this is just him

  channeling his inner God you know and so

  this it's just peaking out you know in

  the in the light in his face and so you

  know so then I was sort of confused when

  she runs the sword through him and the

  roof and pins in there and like nothing

  changes I felt like Diana at that point

  like nothing changed I don't understand

  what's going on here and so when you go

  in and you know that he's a bad guy and

  you watch him you can see him do that

  whole like wait no stop don't you know

  like like yeah half-heartedly trying it

  and then playing everybody to his

  advantage I thought we were leading up

  to a bait-and-switch that dr. Maru was

  going to be Ares like right up until the

  point yeah that David Thewlis showed up

  in that Tower

  I was thinking see okay here's the bait

  and switch we're going to get

  dr. maura now and she's gonna have been

  Aries all along like nipple aiding him

  with the perfumed samplers he was

  huffing then I was like oh my god loop

  is the bad guy yeah I thought it was

  like how was it not him well obviously

  it's doctor poison like that was totally

  where I was right first him through yeah

  yes he I was going it's going to be the

  least likely person and you know and

  that's the twist it's got to be a

  surprise it's not a surprise if it's one

  of the two of them and but also when you

  go back and watch it now it works

  beautifully because either they're gonna

  screw it up or she's going to be seduced

  to his side cuz that's part of what he's

  after at the end and either way he comes

  out ahead exactly yep and it's

  beautifully constructed that way and

  it's really beautifully constructed too

  because his argument Ares argument that

  I don't make them do this this is just

  them I've you know I've given them some

  ideas but they're the ones that choose

  to carry them out that is absolutely the

  case with Ludendorff and and dr. poison

  because you know they they are the ones

  who did absolutely just completely

  killed that village that she that she

  fell in love in and with and it was it

  was it was he was human beings all along

  that were doing this yes killed but

  settled their own um their own

  commanders that were getting ready to

  sign the armistice it's like oh we're

  going to take care of this yeah and like

  like the first time I think we see

  Ludendorff he says you know I haven't

  eaten I haven't slept like what's your

  deal maybe we need to remind everybody

  that an attack can come at any moment

  let's do that bang mm-hmm and and the

  thing I will say about this is that it

  was a very emotional final battle for me

  as we talked about everybody bringing

  their own stuff in fighting their own

  battles because I live in Portland so

  this was just barely a week after the

  incident on the max so talking about how

  mankind is terrible and mankind is

  horrible and mankind does all this stuff

  to each other like I was totally sitting

  in my seat going yeah I know like it was

  very sad like from here because like I

  see that everywhere like it's happening

  in downtown Portland right now as we

  regard this as a matter of fact

  so it was it was one of those things

  where it was it resonated with me

  personally and you know everybody

  sitting in my room sure like as we were

  sitting there watching them talk

  watching Aires talk about how humanity

  is so terrible and you know yeah it did

  you know it it he's absolutely right

  I felt like you know it I was like I

  gotta see your point dude like there was

  a moment there where I'm like yeah he's

  kind of making a convincing argument

  like we kind of do suck and then when I

  knew it was him and we went back the

  next time like there was a lot of stuff

  going on in town where people have had

  crazy amounts of money donated to the

  families and donated to the guy who

  survived so that he can pay all of his

  medical bills and there's a company that

  donated a bunch of t-shirts say piece on

  them and they like went down to the max

  stop and started giving them away to

  people and like there's still a bunch of

  flowers there and people are talking

  about a permanent memorial to these

  people and and that like all of that

  news started coming out on Friday so

  when when I when I get went again on

  Friday I felt like I cited more with

  Diana at the end you know like they are

  more than that like yeah actually we are

  you know we need to be reminded of that

  so it was a very emotion a motional II

  between seeing at Thursday and seeing at

  Friday for that reason you know and it

  was really nice to sort of have that

  reminder and like be sort of reassured I

  guess yeah the one piece of his of areas

  argument that just didn't sit well for

  me and I don't think it was supposed to

  was his idea that okay so you have like

  you know if anybody in this movie could

  could be said to have been fringed its

  Steve because he is the one who

  sacrifices himself and dies I mean at

  least he but chooses to sacrifice

  himself so it's not like really yeah

  fridging but no but so he dies and she

  explodes with her anger which I thought

  that was a great teen she did a really

  nice job but then Aries is his point is

  sort of see he went and he left you

  alone so you should you should believe

  me and follow me and I was just like how

  dumb are you - thank you she's upset

  because she cared about him and you

  totally misread the situation while you

  must be a God of War and clearly not a

  God of love that's

  so so so then she goes on to to

  recognize that no people are better and

  and and she's she becomes our wonderful

  Wonder Woman what which I have to also

  say it's nice that nobody said Wonder

  Woman at all in the entire movie yeah

  yeah that's true her reaction to his to

  his death was was awesome and his

  reaction to her reaction to Steve's

  death was baffling to me the only

  downside for me for a lot of that is I

  thought David Thewlis was totally

  totally perfect as Sir Patrick and as he

  was turning into revealing himself to be

  Aerys it was still okay once we were in

  the full-on god I really kind of wish

  that they'd given him like a full-on

  helm that covered everything but his uh

  but his eyes because I'm sorry

  that is Ares does not wear that would be

  little mustache to me sitting there you

  know he was sitting there talking about

  after I fell to earth and I was too weak

  and whatever and they show him and he's

  like sad and uncloudy in that stash oh

  you've got to put it the 70s and now

  it's World War one I don't understand

  what happened here yes that's it's it's

  kind of it's the why the USS Enterprise

  makes noise in space it's so we can

  remember who he is because we can't

  possibly figure that out but I think

  that was the sex acts nighter thing I

  don't think that was the director

  because that's just dumb yeah and the

  wrists and the rest of this movie is not

  dumb that way well there was still a

  confrontation between the two there

  still had to be dialogue between the two

  so that's what you know that's why they

  couldn't necessarily turn we've got ears

  we've got ears we can hear him hahaha

  you just see this you know there there

  is a thing to be said about about

  humanity and movies and if it was just

  sort of a CG monster I think we would

  sort of lose that connection a little

  bit but I think we can see the eyes in

  the mouth moving of of the human that's

  under perhaps his mustache should have

  singed off I suppose that maybe we go

  for that

  I will give one very brief defense of

  his statement about he's gone and left

  you alone because that to me didn't

  actually feel odd i from a family where

  people have served in the US military

  particularly the US Navy I've got many

  friends who's had people serve in Iraq

  and Afghanistan and the thing that

  strikes me about the grieving process

  for people who serve in the military and

  put themselves in risky situations is

  that usually the anger part of that

  grief is they've gone and left you that

  nobody forced them at least for people

  who served after the draft and even then

  many people who serve during the draft

  had options to get out as did many of my

  family members who could have gone to a

  higher education rather than serve in

  the military at that time the anger part

  of that is you did not have to go and

  serve in this conflict you did not have

  to take that action that self-sacrifice

  to protect other people or in the case

  of what Steve's doing here you didn't

  have to go and decide that you and you

  alone could save everybody and decide to

  sacrifice yourself that that anger part

  of grief that that someone has made the

  decision to leave you is very real and I

  think the thing with Steve that struck

  me with Ares is that Steve is another

  one of in a way areas warriors he's not

  in love with war the way Ares is but

  he's participating in the conflict he's

  doing his best that he can to end the

  conflict but he is participating in it

  and Diana even expresses some discomfort

  at how Steve is valuing lives and how

  he's choosing to accept certain missions

  and who he's choosing to go in and save

  so for me that made perfect sense that

  this this might be a moment to convince

  Diana that

  man is weak man will continue to act out

  and be violent and that could have been

  seen as another failing of Steve's for

  Diana I'm glad that Diana reacted the

  way she did but that moment to me didn't

  seem at all odd thank you for putting

  that way because that's that is

  something I had not considered and now

  that moments it's much better with me

  thank you that that moment didn't seem

  odd to me either also because I mean I

  and this is part of my thing

  I didn't entirely by his resolution to

  this I don't think that was the best way

  to resolve things but in flying the

  plane up and getting it out of the way

  of everybody else

  he's showing that he's valuing everyone

  else who's on the ground he could have

  blown it up on the ground and that would

  have you know wiped out everybody else

  who was there but he took it out of the

  way by himself and now he's valuing only

  his he's valuing everyone else's lives

  above his own instead of saying well I'm

  gonna make a choice and destroy this

  here but you know maybe I'll survive and

  we'll go off and do whatever so it kind

  of made the sacrifice a little more

  meaningful I still don't quite buy it as

  an ending but and he did it without a

  quip too which is nice right you know

  man something he hesitated and he yeah

  exactly thinking and that's another

  thing I love I love to see characters

  think on stage and screen

  I don't care where and you don't get to

  see that often enough I really in like a

  team know enjoyed it but I was really

  impressed with that and then when we get

  the play back later where you can hear

  him and he tells Diana I can save the

  day but you can save the world and I

  really liked that he it sort of felt

  like he'd done the math on all of that

  you know even when when he said I need

  you guys to give me some cover and run

  into the plane or whatever it was you

  know and they all tried to talk him out

  of it and then he finds her and gets the

  chance to talk to her for a second and

  then goes up and that was the thing like

  he did hesitate and and you watch him

  like it sort of felt like when he grabs

  her lasso when he tells her they're

  going anyway and that he lied you know

  oh this is the to idea yeah and and I

  sort of felt like he was thinking about

  that like I even said this was a

  terrible idea and it's sort of like

  working through it in his head if he's

  like but it's what I have to do right

  and you know I know that there's a

  certain amount of that that probably had

  to happen for story reasons and you know

  one thing another like we can't make

  another movie with Steve Trevor and

  that'd that I have ideas now yeah you

  know and well he can come back to be a

  nedda's movie he's good at second fiddle

  to the lady so we should just do that

  more where it's at a show with the

  occasional appearance and special guest

  Steve Trevor I'd be into that so yeah

  I've got ideas for the sequel they could

  do it they really want to oh yeah yeah

  Wonder Woman rogues gallery has witches

  has magic users that stuff can be done I

  get out my big problem with it and this

  is this is the Zack Snyder influence is

  that Diana needs to be free to flirt

  with Bruce Wayne and I don't care

  flirting with Bruce Wayne shield Oh

  Steve Trevor that's Wonder Woman come on

  he's a good life for her but a later

  version Zack Snyder has proven in

  several films now that he totally

  misunderstands Batman Superman and all

  the rest of them so of course it's gonna

  be yeah anyway hi I've started haven't I

  oh but well so yeah I can I can go ahead

  and do it very quickly because that's

  you know that's part of it is I love so

  much of this movie and then it comes to

  the big climactic battle scene

  beautifully shot beautifully

  choreographed that's fine it's from a

  totally different movie and I don't care

  there's too much of it it's too big it

  is straight out of Zack Snyder's fevered

  imagination in the middle of this really

  good movie otherwise and I don't know

  how I would have ended it I don't know

  how I would have done it differently but

  I you know I kind of just tuned out

  after a while it's like but I've seen

  this I've seen x-men I've seen Batman

  and Superman I've seen Man of Steel

  I don't care show me something new the

  rest of the movie showed me something

  new and you're ending it like a Zack

  Snyder movie did anybody else have that

  same feeling I can see David's point I

  don't think I've seen enough superhero

  movies to be totally tired of it but but

  I can see the possibility

  I mean if it's the only one you've seen

  then it would work that's not the only

  one I've seen but I know I know and it

  fits the beat as you said it fits the

  beat of a typical superhero movie which

  is not necessarily what we've gotten to

  this point right it was I mean I usually

  get bored by - invincible beings going

  up against each other but I feel that

  the actions in the fight were sort of

  earned and deserved and there wasn't

  gratuitous in any way and it wasn't they

  weren't there just to show off the moves

  so to speak I think that I think that it

  had just about the right amount I

  usually buy those things I was not bored

  by that by the fight scene and now that

  you mention it now that I think about it

  we've seen the effect of crossing her

  bracelets early on why didn't she just

  do that like ten minutes earlier but she

  lives a tank and she does this and she

  does that does that and then finally

  what what beats him crossing her

  bracelets well duh you know so I believe

  it was Zack Snyder dumb I don't like

  what it were for me it was it was longer

  than it needed to be I yeah yeah but but

  the the fight and I think even the the

  style of the fight of the two super

  beings was kind of important because all

  of the other fight scenes in the movie

  you know had consequences were war based

  fight scenes but the whole thing was

  this is her journey from a little girl

  on an island to recognizing the god

  goddess that she is and and coming into

  those powers fully and I think if we

  didn't have this sort of you know God

  level conflict at the end it wouldn't

  have been a full a full circle sort of a

  thing of her her coming into her own in

  the way that she should have I do agree

  that I didn't need as much of it as I

  got right and it and it totally makes

  sense that way and and yeah I think I

  think it did need something like that i

  I just wanted it to be smarter the way

  the rest of the movie was

  mm-hmm I think I could have done with a

  little less of it and then you know a

  few minutes not not cut it in half or

  anything like that but a little bit less

  of that and a tiny bit more sort of

  aftermath standing there you know

  finding out a little bit about about the

  characters we know and like where is dr.

  Poisson you know after all of this

  because Diana didn't throw the tank on

  her and you know does she sneak off so

  that now we have another story

  possibility for something down the line

  or whatever and you know getting to

  plant some seeds for other stuff like I

  would have been nice with a couple three

  minutes of just that there as the Sun

  rose you know and and those

  excruciatingly ly young guys are taking

  off the gas masses and marveling at the

  sunrise was I thought that part was

  really powerful and I felt way more

  invested in that sort of aftermath than

  I was in a good portion of the battle

  that preceded it yeah well and cuz cuz

  again we know she's going to win so

  there's not a lot of suspense there so

  why drag it out do enough but yeah yeah

  I figured it was to serve the

  conversation they were having yep and I

  didn't necessarily know that she was

  going to to defeat him and kill him I

  mean for cuz since I don't know much

  about the the comic books I didn't know

  if he was she was going to just let him

  go and be like you know what you're

  right it is them so you might as well

  just go live on a mountain somewhere I'm

  gonna keep trying to help humanity but

  no she actually destroyed him and I you

  know I appreciated the size of the

  crater that was impressive yes yeah yeah

  it was above average alright well we

  have been going at this for quite a

  while so I think we should go around and

  do a - a round of final thoughts before

  we before we close things out so Alyssa

  what what are your final thoughts on

  Wonder Woman take everyone you know to

  go see this take your daughters take

  your friends take random strangers on

  the street and bring them in I think

  this is really just a fantastic movie to

  show a unique version of the heroes


  and I'm also just really invested in

  seeing a movie held by a woman and

  directed by a woman really make it big

  be successful and sort of own that

  victory so everyone should go see this

  if you have not seen it yet here here

  Steven final thoughts

  I hope this leads to many more female

  directed female driven movies I would be

  happy to see female directed male driven

  movies because even that is a different

  perspective that we don't have much of I

  hope this hope this leads to at least

  two I don't want one so that the press

  will automatically compare this one to

  the to the last one and as they always

  seem to do here here so it's it's uh you

  know I like to watch for I'm a toy list

  I like watching how directors do things

  and you know the best this is the best

  comic book movie I've seen in some time

  and I think one of the best movies I've

  seen ever was edited by a woman up being

  Mad Max fury road

  I appreciate the feel much perspective

  on action movies they deserve to have

  more chances to shine alright Shannon I

  echo both of those things go see it give

  us more women telling these stories I

  also appreciate that the movie had I

  think just the right balance of

  fanservice I mentioned the Easter egg of

  the of the Blackhawk squad the fight in

  the alleyway where she gets the bullet

  on her bracelet in front of him goes

  back to the Superman Christopher Reeve

  scene you know that there's so many

  wonderful little bits in there um that

  really really work whether you know the

  comics or the history or not I just

  think they found a really good again

  balance in so many different ways mm-hmm

  David final thoughts I agree with

  everybody I you know and even even with

  my Zack Snyder reservations

  I loved this movie this is one of the

  best comic book movies I've ever seen it

  it gets what and I've said this on other

  episodes about comic book movies it gets

  the essence of what it is to be heroic

  that you can be heroic because it's just

  the right thing to do right and that's

  part of when she says you know what

  would I be if I stayed that's that's the

  core of being a hero

  and Man of Steel didn't get it Batman

  versus Superman didn't get it

  a lot of the Marvel movies do right they

  make the choice and she makes that

  choice too because this is what I have

  to do and I don't I can't I can't not do


  right and who would I be if I didn't do

  it and it's just nice to see that it's

  nice to see the earnestness played for

  what it is to just you don't have to

  have this ironic smirk at everything you

  see right and and especially setting it

  in that time period to helps to

  emphasize that to say this was a more

  innocent time and that's okay so yeah I

  take take everyone you can to see it

  tell everyone to see it go see it more

  than once it's just really well done

  and and and the chemistry between them

  that's part of why I was upset about his

  ending because I want more movies of the

  two of them together they were so lovely

  together I can do it if they really want

  to okay yeah drums shatter I will better

  kelly close this out what are your what

  are your final thoughts um all of that

  go see it

  it was super fun um if you are a person

  whom I personally know I will gladly go

  with you again I will hold your hand and

  supply Kleenex is necessary

  um and the thing for me for about this

  movie was um I'm sad it took until I was

  basically an adult for it to happen but

  I'm really happy that it did because if

  it hadn't taken this long we wouldn't

  have gotten the movie we got and you

  know and let until unless and until all

  of the other stuff happened that that

  got the movie to this point where it

  finally did get patty Jenkins and it

  finally did get gal gadot and it did get

  Chris Pine and it did get Robin Wright

  like if if it had been before now we

  wouldn't have gotten those people and so

  you know it's it's that thing that

  Leslie Jones said on SNL that I was

  think of you know somebody fired Oprah

  when she was 23 well of course they did

  she wasn't over yet and she had to get

  fired in order to become Oprah you know

  and I feel like that's what this that's

  how this movie went so I was sad not to

  have it when I was a little girl but I'm

  really glad that this is the one that

  the world gets to see and I'm really

  glad because it's so good it's

  objectively good and maybe now we'll get

  a black widow movie and maybe now we'll

  get you know like I'm gonna say this for

  girls for for Gail Simone herself there

  needs to be a birds-of-prey movie and

  maybe now that will be a thing or you're

  here the secret six or something like

  because it's it's not that this is a

  novelty it's not that this is weird it's

  just a good movie and there's a lot to

  be done for good movies you know just

  objectively and I really liked the the

  statement about like a woman's

  perspective on on any particular stories

  is different and interesting and we

  should see that and given the number of

  reboots and sequels and prequels that go

  on now one of the trailers for the movie

  when I saw it was a Transformers trailer

  yeah they're doing that again uh yeah

  deep sigh and I role um for me like I

  don't want to see that so much as I want

  to see you know what the next patty

  Jenkins movie or who worked with patty

  Jenkins who's going to go direct their

  own movie and what's that going to be

  about and how is that going to be

  interesting and that's what I want so I

  really hope that this sort of becomes a


  you know the way Star Wars was a big

  deal space movie like maybe this will be

  the big deal girl superhero movie and

  now we will get more of them because

  people will understand it does make

  money and you do sell tickets to girls

  and you can sell tickets to boys even if

  the movie stars a girl and you know it

  really would have been okay if you had

  called the movie princess of Mars and

  like yeah there's a whole bunch I have a

  lot to bring to this but for me that's

  what I want is for this

  in a fabulous pair of boots to kick down

  that door so that more of this can

  happen here here Kelly one of the things

  that that you said was that you were sad

  for yourself that you didn't get this

  movie when you were a little kid and I

  think one of my favorite things about

  the existence in this movie is the fact

  that there are a ton of little girls who

  do have in this movie now and all of the

  pictures that I saw on Twitter of little

  girls dressed up as Wonder Woman and

  just being so excited about it like that

  that just warms my heart I'm really

  really excited and I co everything

  everybody else has said about hoping

  that this means that there will be more

  because I think that those little girls

  deserve more than just a single awesome

  movie they should be able to get more

  they should also be able to get some

  some female led movies that fail and and

  have that be okay because Lord I've had

  it once and then maybe grow up not to

  just be heroic and do good things

  themselves but to grow up and write and

  direct movies - yep yep yeah exactly so

  thank you everybody for joining me

  Shannon thanks so much for being here

  always a pleasure Melissa been fantastic

  Stephen I know that I sort of didn't

  give you a choice but thank you anyway

  knows when to be subservient I know my

  role and I know my place and I was happy

  to be here with you all today

  dick fit as always thank you for being

  here well as always thank you not Jason

  I think you are also above average I am

  Kelly month thank you so much for being

  here thanks so much for having me it was

  a really fun time and again I am Erica

  and sign and we'll see you hopefully

  with Jason back in his chair next time

  on the incomparable