0:00:00we're not going to get through all this
0:00:01follow so just a certain point someone
0:00:03just pull the ripcord and we'll get the
0:00:05hell out the show now we have crossed a
0:00:11wonderful threshold that is totally
0:00:13worth pointing out and calling out on
0:00:14this show we have on my desk is an iPad
0:00:18that is faster in every measure I could
0:00:20possibly think of then John's Mac Pro
0:00:25you are so mean oh you're so mean if it
0:00:30beats a single-core a couple generations
0:00:31ago and it is finally crossed the
0:00:35multi-core so now and I'm pretty sure
0:00:38the GPU is probably lay ahead I'm also
0:00:41pretty sure that the screen on it is
0:00:43higher resolution on the screen
0:00:44connected to Jon's Mac Pro so is if we
0:00:47have finally crossed the point where not
0:00:50even the best iPad but just like the
0:00:52middle-of-the-road iPad is faster in
0:00:55every respect I can possibly think to
0:00:56measure then John's Mac Pro it's the
0:00:58best iPad isn't it what set is the top
0:01:00100 faster higher clock or something I
0:01:02know actually I think it's the same in
0:01:04all respects just the higher extreme
0:01:05resolution yeah well my fans are faster
0:01:07so beat that I got so many more divided
0:01:12by 0 that's not fair
0:01:13yeah well just put up at an event in
0:01:17your calendar and we'll revisit that
0:01:18iPad in 10 years
0:01:19uh-huh we'll see how it's doing yeah
0:01:23that's what you're clinging to yeah is
0:01:25the shattered glass on its surface long
0:01:28after it's been dropped in at least my
0:01:30Hardware still works ten years on barely
0:01:32but it works it's all I've got
0:01:34so I've got to hang on to now and I want
0:01:35this I want this Mac to feel safe and
0:01:37loved and to just carry me through so I
0:01:39can turn funny of it oh now that Nev the
0:01:41iPad like medium sized has USB 3 over
0:01:45its lightning port I also have faster
0:01:46ports on your Mac Pro oh that's
0:01:51magnificent all right let's get this
0:01:52show on the road we this is going to be
0:01:54an all follow-up episode and it's just
0:01:56the way it's going to have to be well I
0:01:57all follow-up episode we will do an
0:01:58after show that has some quasi follow-up
0:02:01but we should dig right in
0:02:03John here we go tell us about a PFS so
0:02:08the AP FS session was on Friday at WWDC
0:02:12saved it till the very end so obviously
0:02:14we couldn't talk about it when we had
0:02:16our live WWC episode because the session
0:02:18hadn't been run yet Ron there was some
0:02:19new information in this session in
0:02:22particular all the issues about file
0:02:24name encoding that we've been talking
0:02:26about on the show we're still talking
0:02:27about of course so this was the the one
0:02:31and only bugga filed against ap FS like
0:02:33last year back when it was introduced
0:02:34with last year think it was last year
0:02:36whatever was yeah I filed a bug we
0:02:38talked about it on the show what are
0:02:39they going to do about encoding and we
0:02:42had you know and we've been talked about
0:02:43off and on for a long time so I think is
0:02:45the the biggest aside from a data
0:02:48integrity which basically was a no-go on
0:02:49that you know as we found out last year
0:02:51so set that aside such a feature doesn't
0:02:53have the encoding issue seem like a big
0:02:57deal and it turns out it is a big deal
0:02:58so some caveats here the session about
0:03:02it was kind of vague and I tried to talk
0:03:05to the Apple folks afterwards and I did
0:03:07get to talk to a few of them including
0:03:08one of the guys who implemented the
0:03:10stuff I'm going to talk about now but it
0:03:12didn't have that much time to talk to
0:03:13him because they went down to the labs
0:03:15and labs is your head like a big line
0:03:16and everything and it seemed like super
0:03:18official and I didn't want to get in
0:03:19that line and like hog the file system
0:03:22engineers from people who are developing
0:03:23apps so I only got a brief time to talk
0:03:26to them sort of in the hallways in
0:03:27transit so forgive me if I got some of
0:03:29this wrong if anyone wants to write in
0:03:31and clarify they can let me know but
0:03:32here's what I've got so in hi Sierra
0:03:36there's something that they're calling
0:03:38native normalization and that's going to
0:03:41be an AP FS I remember a B vest came to
0:03:43iOS and what ten point three point
0:03:45something or other a couple weeks or a
0:03:48month ago and we talked about it on the
0:03:49show and the question we had was what is
0:03:52going to be like when ApS comes to the
0:03:54Mac is it going to be the same deal so
0:03:55and so forth well one thing right off
0:03:57the bat is different AP FS on High
0:03:59Sierra has native normalization what
0:04:01that means is file names are stored as
0:04:04provided by the program in the file
0:04:06system so whatever whatever garbage you
0:04:08give it it says I'm writing that as the
0:04:10file name there you go
0:04:13but directory lookups are done through
0:04:17hashes of normalized versions of the
0:04:19file name so if you put in some file
0:04:21name that's you know I don't know if
0:04:22just any valid sequence of you know you
0:04:26whatever's and you do a look-up on it
0:04:29with a different but equivalent sequence
0:04:31and it's the whole thing with like cafe
0:04:32with a needle exclamation up with an
0:04:34accent on it you can do that with accent
0:04:36as a single character as to combining
0:04:38characters right as far as you're
0:04:40concerned that's the same file name so
0:04:42what native normalization will do is
0:04:44when it stores the hashes for that
0:04:46directory it will not hash the file name
0:04:48that you gave it the finally that's
0:04:50actually in the file system instead it
0:04:51will normalize that file name and store
0:04:53that hash and then when you try to look
0:04:55it up it'll take whatever you gave it
0:04:56normalize that hash it and compared to
0:04:59the other hash so it's kind of weird
0:05:00that you've got in the file system a
0:05:01file name and each file name has a
0:05:04corresponding hash that is not a hash of
0:05:06that file name it's a hash of the
0:05:08normalized version that file name and
0:05:09they're using NFD normalization put a
0:05:11link in the show notes to look at the
0:05:12different normalization forms in Unicode
0:05:14the one they're using according to one
0:05:17of the engineers to talk to is NF D and
0:05:19this is what they call native
0:05:20normalization so that will make it so
0:05:22that on the Mac when you when a program
0:05:25tries to look up a file name no matter
0:05:27how sloppy the program is with the
0:05:29encoding it will find it because it's
0:05:30going to be looking it up by a hash of
0:05:32the normalized version of that not by
0:05:34what you gave it so it's not going to
0:05:36take what you gave it and compare it to
0:05:37the actual file name because then it
0:05:38might not get it and here's the other
0:05:42interesting part about this so iOS still
0:05:44has still doesn't do this yet what
0:05:46they're going to add something they call
0:05:47run time normalization in iOS 10 3 3 and
0:05:51iOS 11 which will not change what's in
0:05:54the file system but will do something
0:05:56that is vague and I didn't understand at
0:06:00the file system level to make it so you
0:06:01can find your files and here's the
0:06:03kicker this this is right from the the a
0:06:05BFS presentation slide future update
0:06:09will convert all devices to the new
0:06:11native normalization so what that means
0:06:14is some point in the future they're
0:06:16going to update all iOS devices file
0:06:19systems again and they're not going to
0:06:20convert them from one file system to
0:06:22another they're going to basically add
0:06:24all the hashes of the normalized forms
0:06:25of all the file names I don't know if
0:06:27that is more dangerous or less dangerous
0:06:28than the other thing it seems to me that
0:06:30it could be more dangerous but I'm
0:06:31assuming they're doing in an additive
0:06:33way but this is what I was getting I was
0:06:34hemming and hawing over this encoding
0:06:37stuff it's going to cause them to have
0:06:38to
0:06:39the file system on every single iOS
0:06:41device at some point in the future like
0:06:43they didn't get it over with there's
0:06:44another one looming whereas the Mac is
0:06:46going to do this one time conversion and
0:06:47it will have the system from the get
0:06:48going it seems to me that Apple's file
0:06:52system engineers were surprised at how
0:06:56many iOS programs take strings directly
0:07:01from the UI and feed them to file system
0:07:03API without doing like a
0:07:04misrepresentation or any other sort of
0:07:06api's that turn the string into the form
0:07:08that the file system understands it just
0:07:10as though someone typed something in a
0:07:11field however that field in my
0:07:13application got that string however was
0:07:16typed however was you know whatever
0:07:18however was normalized and not
0:07:20normalized you composed or whatever I'm
0:07:22just going to pass it straight through
0:07:23to the file system and that that in turn
0:07:24ends up having people not be able to
0:07:26open up their files usually in non ASCII
0:07:28language is obviously because ASCII is
0:07:30very simple it maps one to one to utf-8
0:07:32and all that so surprise your iOS
0:07:37devices are going to get updated again
0:07:39yay there's actually uh something really
0:07:43fascinating about that and I think I'm
0:07:45jumping ahead in the show notes and I
0:07:46apologize to mr. John siracusa during
0:07:50the talk show I think was federighi had
0:07:52mentioned that whatever version of iOS
0:07:55it doesn't really matter what version it
0:07:57was that the really flipped the switch
0:07:58on a PFS and that migrated everyone to a
0:08:02PFS apparently for like two or three
0:08:04versions prior during the upgrade they
0:08:08would do and jump in John when you're
0:08:10ready they would do kind of like a a
0:08:13trial run of the AP FS migration try to
0:08:17figure out did this work what went right
0:08:20what went what went wrong phone home the
0:08:23results and then revert it all back to
0:08:25hfs+ is that a fair summary yeah and
0:08:28that's the only way I think people were
0:08:30surprised by this but if you've ever
0:08:31done a sort of a production rollout on a
0:08:33large-scale it's the only way you can
0:08:34ever do something like this you the
0:08:36first time you run it for real on
0:08:37everyone's devices can't be the first
0:08:40time it runs right you have to have run
0:08:42it several times before doing it
0:08:45unbeknownst to them is certainly a novel
0:08:47way to do it one possible way to do it
0:08:48is to roll it out to a small subset of
0:08:50your users use them as the guinea pigs
0:08:51I'm not
0:08:52sure how big like that were everybody to
0:08:54get any things breather way you want you
0:08:56have to you never you know programmers
0:08:58no you never find a hugger thing
0:08:59actually works until you you know run it
0:09:01for real and server-side programmers no
0:09:03production is never like exactly like
0:09:06staging is never exactly like dev and so
0:09:08on and so forth you think it is you try
0:09:09to make them as much the same as you
0:09:10possibly can but inevitably you roll
0:09:12something out to production and surprise
0:09:14it behaves a little bit differently in
0:09:16strange ways that you never could have
0:09:17predicted in when you have millions and
0:09:19millions of users that is sure to be the
0:09:20case so yeah they you know since the
0:09:22conversion is non-destructive until the
0:09:24very last step as described in past
0:09:25episodes of the show they did the
0:09:27conversion just didn't do the last step
0:09:29and then ran a full integrity check to
0:09:31say if I was to do this last step would
0:09:33this thing be hosed or would it be okay
0:09:35and then obviously we report the results
0:09:36back to themselves and they could see
0:09:37how it goes and they could have kept
0:09:39doing that process until you know like
0:09:41it could be that you know iOS level
0:09:43would have been the conversion for it
0:09:44but I guess they did it enough times and
0:09:46got enough results to say it's safe to
0:09:48do it in 10 3 whatever that they you
0:09:50know conversion was so that's just a
0:09:53good engineering there and you know and
0:09:55like I said Ford's the design of a PFS
0:09:57the type of file system that is allows
0:09:59them to do both the trial runs and the
0:10:01conversion in a fairly safe way I just I
0:10:05mean again like you said it does make
0:10:06sense but I just found that fascinating
0:10:08that that was the path they chose and
0:10:11just very clever stuff i it's that's
0:10:13super cool it was really cool there were
0:10:16a couple of other interesting tidbits we
0:10:17got from the talk show which will I'm
0:10:19sure discussed later
0:10:20keeping with the a PFS train tell me
0:10:23about the compression versus HFS+ yeah
0:10:27this was a question I had a couple shows
0:10:30back hey hfs+ has compression and a lot
0:10:33of our West files are compressed and
0:10:34other files can be compressed both by
0:10:36user programs and by the OS and stuff
0:10:38like that that's totally transparent to
0:10:40you when you read the file off of a file
0:10:42system hfs+ if it's compressed just
0:10:44decompress is it on the fly you'd never
0:10:45see it it never looks any different they
0:10:47added that feature many years ago right
0:10:49my question was how do you
0:10:52non-destructively convert an HFS+ volume
0:10:55to a PFS while not moving any of the
0:11:00data because if you have a compressed
0:11:02file and you leave it compressed and you
0:11:04convert to a PF s and a PF s doesn't
0:11:06understand that compression when you
0:11:07read that file will be garbage because
0:11:09it's not abs won't know how to
0:11:11decompress it so it'll just read the
0:11:12compressed bytes which is not what
0:11:14you're going to expect and in the grand
0:11:16tradition of Gruber forgetting to ask
0:11:18Phil and Craig questions I forgot to ask
0:11:21anybody w do you see how the heck
0:11:22they're doing this so if anybody knows
0:11:25tell me and it'll be follow-up in a
0:11:27future show I just totally forgot to ask
0:11:28I should have like written it on my palm
0:11:30or something
0:11:31say hey by the way when I've got your
0:11:33heavy an impression again the easiest
0:11:35solution is obviously the day PFS just
0:11:37understands that compression handles it
0:11:38that could be the case you know it's a
0:11:40simple solution but I have no idea
0:11:42interesting alright so next time next
0:11:45WTC you'll have to remember iOS 11 dots
0:11:50for signal strength so I am only vaguely
0:11:53familiar with what's going on here but
0:11:54apparently in some contexts either
0:11:57screenshots or perhaps the OS itself is
0:11:59showing circles for signal strength for
0:12:02your cellular carrier but in other
0:12:04context it's vertical bars is that right
0:12:07I don't know what that who is running
0:12:09iOS 11 I have it on my iPad that's
0:12:11faster than John's Mac Pro and I can
0:12:12tell you that it is definitely using
0:12:15bars all the time yeah I think people
0:12:17were confused by that because in the
0:12:19keynote they showed like the
0:12:21Notification Center slides were near
0:12:23when you first saw the bar isn't it like
0:12:24and we all know Notification Center
0:12:26here's the things you can do in
0:12:27Notification Center those were all iOS
0:12:2810 screenshots that's why I was showing
0:12:31like existing stuff you can do
0:12:32Notification Center it was like a lineup
0:12:34of big things and they all had dots in
0:12:35them and the next slide was like here's
0:12:37what you can do in iOS 11 and those had
0:12:38bars someone told me they thought there
0:12:40was a screenshot in the keynote that was
0:12:42supposed to be iOS 11 that also had dots
0:12:45but I don't recall seeing either way
0:12:46Marko's got the actual beta and their
0:12:48bars again like it whatever you see like
0:12:51in betas and stuff is never actually
0:12:52final but I can tell you that in beta
0:12:54one on my iPad it is bars all bars all
0:12:57the time and this is a welcome change
0:12:59because dots always sucked I'm going to
0:13:02like dots but the most important thing
0:13:04about bars versus dots as far as
0:13:06everyone's conspiracy theories go on
0:13:08this is that bars take up less with in
0:13:10the top bar and why would that be
0:13:13important why do you need them to be
0:13:14smaller all of the weird rumors about
0:13:17the iPhone 8 or whatever they're going
0:13:19to
0:13:20having something in the middle of the
0:13:22top of your screen that doesn't leave
0:13:24enough room for the five dots to you
0:13:26know lay themselves out that something
0:13:29could be part of the case of the phone
0:13:31like the cameras and stuff and it could
0:13:33be like a little mono brow type thing
0:13:35where the top of the phone is not
0:13:37straight across but actually this is a
0:13:38little dip in the middle it could be
0:13:40that the cameras are behind the screen
0:13:43at that point I don't quite understand
0:13:44why you'd have to get rid of the bar so
0:13:45that anyway there are a lot of theories
0:13:47about why it has to be thinner the thing
0:13:48that bothers me about the bars is and
0:13:51one of the reasons that well I don't
0:13:52know if one reason Apple got rid of them
0:13:54but it was one of the things that people
0:13:55don't like about bars and it was
0:13:56discussed when they did get rid of them
0:13:58was that visually speaking like the
0:14:02visual weight of one two three four or
0:14:04five bars is not even so if you have two
0:14:08bars it doesn't look like half the lit
0:14:13up pixels of four bars because it's like
0:14:15a stair-step thing and you know it just
0:14:17it looks like your signal is weaker than
0:14:19it is then you do with dots if you have
0:14:21five evenly sized dots then sort of one
0:14:24you know two dots is exactly you know
0:14:27almost exactly half the lit up pixels as
0:14:29four dots you know and so it seems more
0:14:31fair and you don't like to see your
0:14:33phone with these tiny little one or two
0:14:35bars even though two bars could be
0:14:38perfectly good you feel a little bit
0:14:39better when you see two out of five dots
0:14:40at least that's my impression anyway
0:14:42remember when they fixed antenna gate by
0:14:44making the bars taller yeah or that
0:14:46didn't they just like change the scale
0:14:47because like what is three bars really
0:14:49that you know this isn't yeah they did
0:14:51some fussing that it'll actually did
0:14:53both like they I think they changed I
0:14:55think they changed some of you like you
0:14:57know decibel cutoff points of what the
0:14:58bars are presented and also they they
0:15:01made the shorter like the leftmost bars
0:15:04a little bit taller so that's why it's
0:15:06kind of like a like almost like a curved
0:15:08ramp up from the left instead of a
0:15:10straight ramp up it may call the bar is
0:15:12the same height so it's like a block or
0:15:14something well that's what dots are yeah
0:15:15but they're all spread out no but these
0:15:17whole things about like trying to like
0:15:18you know make room for you know a cutout
0:15:21in the 2017 new iPhone I don't I'm not
0:15:26sure I buy that be like the whole idea
0:15:28of having these like these protruding
0:15:29like camera and speaker things and
0:15:32having a screen that goes
0:15:33above to the left on the right of it I
0:15:35still don't get that at all because I
0:15:39just I mean I think we've learned by now
0:15:41that the rumor cycle with this kind of
0:15:43stuff gets about a third of what they
0:15:45predict correct like it's it's not a
0:15:47great ratio and I think this is just one
0:15:49of those things like this this sounds
0:15:51like something an Android maker would do
0:15:53not something Apple to do because if you
0:15:55think about how that screen space would
0:15:56actually be used first of all there's a
0:15:59lot of stuff that goes in the status bar
0:16:01still even in iOS 11 there's lots of
0:16:03stuff that goes in the status bar one of
0:16:05the big things is where the clock go the
0:16:07clock is right right there in the middle
0:16:09and there's not really room on the sides
0:16:10to put it there if you unless you get
0:16:12rid of something else that everyone
0:16:13likes or that you need so it's just like
0:16:16I just don't I don't see how the status
0:16:19bar morphs to have a big cut out in the
0:16:21middle of it and still be good anyway
0:16:23and then I also don't see why you would
0:16:26have the screen extend with this giant
0:16:28rectangle sticking into the middle of it
0:16:29because what are you going to do with
0:16:31that space like are you going to show
0:16:33parts of a photo that extend into that
0:16:35into that space then you then you see
0:16:37the big black cutout like it's just I
0:16:39don't see any way in which that looks
0:16:41good and actually works in practice let
0:16:44us have eyebrows rendered there you know
0:16:45like rendered hair push your eyebrows
0:16:48yeah you know so the non
0:16:51conspiracy-theory
0:16:52other than someone that looks just like
0:16:54dots which is perfectly valid is that
0:16:57having more room in the status bar is
0:17:00always a good thing right I mean that
0:17:01gives you more options sometimes I saw
0:17:03as products kind of crowded up there and
0:17:04if you're taking up less room with dots
0:17:05then you get a little more breathing
0:17:06room and it looks nicer if they want to
0:17:08say take that weird back arrow thingy
0:17:11that is always squished up in the is
0:17:13that even in the status bar anyone know
0:17:15yeah it does yeah like lay that out
0:17:18differently now they have extra room who
0:17:19knows anyway it could just be that in
0:17:21like dots we'll find out you know a
0:17:23couple months indeed all right another
0:17:27thing that has happened in iOS 11
0:17:28apparently the third-party service
0:17:31integration that came in a couple of
0:17:32versions ago and remember exactly when
0:17:34so this is integration at the system
0:17:36level with Twitter Facebook Flickr Vimeo
0:17:38you could enter your passwords
0:17:41it's for any of those services at the
0:17:44system level and then when an app wants
0:17:47to leverage those services you know it
0:17:48can kind of ask the system for for the
0:17:51accounts blah blah blah those have all
0:17:53been removed and according to the iOS 11
0:17:57beta release notes quote social accounts
0:18:00have been removed from settings in iOS
0:18:0111 third-party apps no longer have
0:18:02access to those signed in accounts
0:18:04what's that about
0:18:06that's about adding one more thing to my
0:18:07to-do list this summer because I use the
0:18:09Twitter one and now I have to stop using
0:18:10it and write my own stupid Twitter login
0:18:12and I'm not happy about that sorry so
0:18:15Darren Cohen says that Facebook and
0:18:16Twitter get it rid of the API is that do
0:18:18that stuff and that's why Microsoft's
0:18:21also had to pull that support out of
0:18:22windows I'm not sure if that's the case
0:18:24but you know so fine
0:18:25Facebook and Twitter got rid of them
0:18:26what about Flickr and Vimeo like no one
0:18:29is even developing they'll ask you know
0:18:31it's all that some of might be
0:18:32developing do you know anyway um it
0:18:35seems more like it seems more like a
0:18:38policy decision this is interesting
0:18:40about the bay release notes by the way I
0:18:41read them a couple times like they have
0:18:43a known issue section and that but
0:18:46sometimes they just talk about changes
0:18:48and sometimes they phrase it so you
0:18:50realize oh in this build such and such a
0:18:54feature is like this but we don't mean
0:18:56it to be that way it's just way it is in
0:18:57this bill sometimes some things like
0:18:59that under or under a known issues
0:19:01header sometimes they're just in the
0:19:02changes section and the reason I quoted
0:19:05this is because I think this sentence
0:19:07expresses pretty clearly that this is
0:19:09not just something that's missing in
0:19:10beta 1 but that marker really does have
0:19:12to do work and they're just not leaving
0:19:14them in there though they're officially
0:19:15deprecated in the API they're gone like
0:19:17that it's not yeah it's not like a
0:19:20temporary beta 1 thing this is actually
0:19:22they're gone so it does simplify things
0:19:23because any time Apple has one of these
0:19:26things where it's like certain blessed
0:19:28third parties are given deeper hooks
0:19:31into the operating system than other
0:19:32ones it's kind of convenient but then
0:19:34Apple has to eternally maintain an
0:19:38awareness of the of the social service
0:19:41zeitgeist they're like what's popular
0:19:43now because they can't they can't just
0:19:45keep the same set of things and support
0:19:46them forever because three or four years
0:19:47later then there's something new and and
0:19:49some old one needs to go away but you
0:19:50take the old one and go away then people
0:19:53like Marco are sad because they use it
0:19:54in their
0:19:55but the the most a polite solution is
0:19:57you know what you don't get any just get
0:19:59yourself like because then you don't
0:20:01have to worry I would have to keep up
0:20:03with this anymore if they change their
0:20:04api's they won't break our stop we don't
0:20:05have to do deals with them every
0:20:07developer can handle it for themselves
0:20:10obviously the best solution would be
0:20:12some way for some sort of extension
0:20:14mechanism for the third-party services
0:20:17themselves who are highly motivated to
0:20:19have this type of integration to write
0:20:21such an integration for iOS but that's
0:20:22kind of long a lot and some third-party
0:20:25keyboards and that something doesn't
0:20:27seem like Apple would do but they could
0:20:29do it someday well and also like the the
0:20:31existing share extension framework
0:20:33really does most of what you need for
0:20:35that and and puts the power of creating
0:20:38those things and maintain them and
0:20:39designing them into the hands of the app
0:20:41makers who run those services and have
0:20:43their apps so it like you know it rather
0:20:45than having Apple design the share to
0:20:48Twitter sheet for instance that is built
0:20:50into the system and have the system
0:20:51maintain a separate Twitter login
0:20:54account that is separately set and
0:20:56separately managed now that's all on
0:20:58Twitter or whatever happens so now a
0:21:00Twitter can just with their app have
0:21:02your own login in their application
0:21:04Twitter can design their own share
0:21:06extension and have it do whatever they
0:21:07want it to do and look however they want
0:21:09to look and so it and then you know it
0:21:11isn't now just Twitter but now when
0:21:13something new comes along like if Manson
0:21:15wants to have a share tension from micro
0:21:17blog that will now get equal billing as
0:21:20a share extension as things like Twitter
0:21:22and that's great and again like like we
0:21:25were saying like this the the system of
0:21:26having Apple maintained this fairly
0:21:29short list of like services that matter
0:21:31that will have first-class integration
0:21:33that's not scalable and I think we've
0:21:35seen over time like you know so many new
0:21:37networks have come up since then like
0:21:39there was never a shared a snapchat
0:21:41that's crazy
0:21:42snapchat is bigger than some of the
0:21:44things that are noticed but it like it
0:21:47didn't get to it the share to Twitter
0:21:48that Apple made that that was there for
0:21:51you know the last few iOS versions the
0:21:53share to Twitter and iOS 10 broke on me
0:21:56all the time like it would I would post
0:21:58a tweet with it and it would just never
0:22:00post and presumably like it was hitting
0:22:02some weird API limit and was or it
0:22:05wasn't counting characters correctly or
0:22:06something and there was no interface
0:22:09to report an error to me or to report
0:22:11that it failed or to retry alright and
0:22:13looks like it's like the system Apple
0:22:15had before just did not scale and so
0:22:18it's nice to have now that we have a new
0:22:21system of its share extensions that
0:22:23we've actually had for like 3 iOS
0:22:25version though now Apple can step back
0:22:27and say alright you know what we tried
0:22:29doing this ourselves it was ok but now
0:22:31this is up to you guys and we're going
0:22:33to step back from it and you can always
0:22:35kind of tell like the the data sharing
0:22:39relationship between Apple and Twitter
0:22:42and Facebook you can always tell it was
0:22:43little bit tense you know there's there
0:22:45really very much at odds with their
0:22:48business models and what they want to do
0:22:50with the user and who owns the user and
0:22:52who owns the users data and what kind of
0:22:53integration they want and everything
0:22:54else and so to have Apple just fully
0:22:57step back from that and you just tell
0:22:59everyone else like look you're now cut
0:23:01off from any kind of privilege you can
0:23:03do these things but so can everyone else
0:23:05and everything that's part of the system
0:23:07is off limits to you that I think is
0:23:09better for everybody really yeah reminds
0:23:12me of when Apple first added Facebook
0:23:14integration to what was then OS 10 and
0:23:17one of our views remember hearing about
0:23:19how they sort of bent over backwards to
0:23:22try to integrate Facebook with apples
0:23:25contact databases without giving
0:23:27Facebook all of your contact info but
0:23:29having them sync and it was you know
0:23:31tense is definitely the right word for
0:23:33it
0:23:34the only bit about not having these
0:23:36things as part of system is I guess it's
0:23:38probably good for the services but maybe
0:23:40some users won't like it you have to
0:23:42have the app for these things installed
0:23:43now even if you're like oh I'm never
0:23:45going to use Flickr on my phone I just
0:23:47want to be able to post to it from my
0:23:48phone well you gotta have the flow graph
0:23:49installed because the extensions come
0:23:51from the app so whatever just put it in
0:23:53a folder somewhere and you will notice
0:23:54it we were sponsored this week by mail
0:23:58route stop spam today with a free 30-day
0:24:01trial at mail route net slash ATP you
0:24:04know you should handle your email
0:24:05security and delivery people who do only
0:24:08that and that is mail around now this
0:24:11applies to big companies or individuals
0:24:14in it pretty much anybody who hosts an
0:24:16email account on their own domain so
0:24:18whether you use Google Apps for business
0:24:20or whatever they call that this year or
0:24:22you're using your own IMAP host
0:24:23something like fast mail or whether you
0:24:26run your own servers whether for
0:24:27yourself or for your business if you're
0:24:28on your own mail servers you direct the
0:24:30internet to send their mail to mail rat
0:24:32through MX records in your DNS for your
0:24:34domain and then mail route delivers to
0:24:37your servers only the clean mail they do
0:24:40all the spam filtering virus filtering
0:24:42all that for you so you get only clean
0:24:44mail and in my opinion I'm using it now
0:24:46for over a year at least and it is Bar
0:24:49None the best spam filter I have ever
0:24:52seen and it's full of great features
0:24:54whether you're a business or individual
0:24:56there's the adeno date this is made for
0:24:58enterprise so they have all sorts of
0:25:00wonderful enterprise features that I
0:25:01personally don't understand they have a
0:25:03whole API to manage it including you
0:25:05know all sorts of you know crazy admin
0:25:07tools there's a nice interface if you
0:25:09want to use that instead of the API it's
0:25:11all designed to make your life better as
0:25:13either an end user of email or as an
0:25:15email administrator for a business and
0:25:16it is so so good I cannot tell you
0:25:20enough how good mail right is I hardly
0:25:22ever get spam anymore it's glorious it's
0:25:25it's really weird but I do get it that's
0:25:27how rarely I get it because it's
0:25:28noteworthy when I do get it it is so so
0:25:32great I cannot recommend mail route
0:25:34enough and so again whether you're an
0:25:36individual like me putting it in front
0:25:37of an IMAP host or whether you're
0:25:38running a bunch of servers for a
0:25:39business you need mail route to filter
0:25:42out all the spam and viruses before they
0:25:45get to your servers you can save server
0:25:46load you're more secure that way and
0:25:48it's way better at filtering out spam
0:25:50than anything else I've ever seen yes
0:25:52Gmail people even Gmail it is so so good
0:25:55at filtering out spam check out mail
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0:26:10check it out today mail route net slash
0:26:12ATP thank you very much - mail route for
0:26:15sponsoring our show moving on in iOS 11
0:26:22according to Fraser Spears on the home
0:26:24screen there are like four different
0:26:26things you can do so a short tap means
0:26:30open whatever app icon you just tapped
0:26:33on a medium tap
0:26:35apparently opens a popover menu a medium
0:26:38hold what is a medium tap then anyway
0:26:42as I one thing it took me a very long
0:26:43time to figure out how to move multiple
0:26:46apps at once on springboard what like
0:26:49you can move an app around just with a
0:26:51regular drag-and-drop but you can't do
0:26:53multiple apps with that to do multiple
0:26:56apps you have to put it into wiggle X
0:26:57mode we're like the old way where you
0:26:59long press on it and eventually it goes
0:27:01into wiggle X mode then you can do the
0:27:03multi tap thing like it took my sudden
0:27:05this obviously it took me so long to
0:27:06figure out some of this stuff like it's
0:27:08there there are now like more modes than
0:27:12than ever before and it's very powerful
0:27:14but there are so many modes and gestures
0:27:17and alternate taps and everything it's
0:27:18going to be a while before even power
0:27:21users figure out what what all this
0:27:22stuff is so to come back to Fraser
0:27:24Spears source power user yes our short
0:27:26tap is open the app the medium tap is
0:27:29the popover menu medium hold is begin a
0:27:32drag long hold is enter rearrange mode
0:27:34all of those different things based on
0:27:37you putting your meaty finger against
0:27:40the screen on top of an icon for various
0:27:43amounts of time with various medicine
0:27:45movement I think for such is separate
0:27:46because force touches brings up the
0:27:48whatever the forced touch menu that the
0:27:49application implements this reminds me
0:27:51of course of the home button which
0:27:53started out as a button you press to go
0:27:55back to springboard and ended up having
0:27:57a Morse code set of things that you can
0:27:59tap on to do all sorts of weird stuff I
0:28:01mean at the point where there we talked
0:28:03about it before the accessibility thing
0:28:05where it slides down the screen wherever
0:28:07that's called that was like two taps but
0:28:11don't actually press the button that's
0:28:13what we level they were getting at were
0:28:14like they'd used up the one to tap and
0:28:17hold do this to that it's like okay now
0:28:18now this is a tap but don't press the
0:28:21button as the button doesn't move
0:28:23anymore but like don't press it enough
0:28:25that it would move if it did move it's
0:28:27very strange
0:28:29continuing title with iOS 11 a new
0:28:31feature of iOS 11 which was mentioned I
0:28:33thought somewhere maybe during the
0:28:36keynote but I might be wrong about that
0:28:37but I saw this somewhere last week you
0:28:40can now share your Wi-Fi passwords so
0:28:42this there's an article 95 Mac will put
0:28:45the show notes if a friend comes over
0:28:46with an iPhone running iOS 11 you can
0:28:48automatically log
0:28:49into your Wi-Fi in one tap and this
0:28:51looks very similar to kind of the the
0:28:55air pods charge status when you flick
0:28:57open the air pod case I don't obviously
0:28:59think that's how its activated but they
0:29:02have a screen shot in here on the 95 Mac
0:29:03article and what a cool idea I dig it
0:29:06my question is do they get to see your
0:29:09password like is this just a convenience
0:29:11feature of not having to read something
0:29:13off to somebody and they type it in and
0:29:15get capital that is wrong or is this a
0:29:17security feature where you can let
0:29:18someone log on to your thing but they
0:29:20can't see your password I'm inclined to
0:29:21think it's just a convenience feature
0:29:22because once the password is on their
0:29:24phone surely they can get it off if they
0:29:27wanted it it wasn't presumably I mean
0:29:28because they have to know like they have
0:29:30to have the password in their device a
0:29:32possession for it to be on the Wi-Fi so
0:29:35I'm guessing like it probably isn't
0:29:36shown to them it's probably just putting
0:29:38keychain but there are ways to access
0:29:41things in keychain like if you sync if
0:29:42it's synced with iCloud keychain and it
0:29:44syncs to a Mac then you can go to
0:29:46keychain access and you can get the
0:29:47password right there so what are the
0:29:49secure Enclave possibly get all right
0:29:52right so yeah I'm guessing that you know
0:29:54they end up having a way to get to the
0:29:56password if they want to and this is
0:29:57this is more for quick convenience and
0:30:00like casual security than it is about
0:30:03real security because real security is a
0:30:05go in them on your network then they're
0:30:07on your network that's it exactly
0:30:08everyone's Wi-Fi passwords are like the
0:30:10kids names anyway so come on yeah I no
0:30:12one ever changes their Wi-Fi passwords
0:30:13because now they have like sixteen
0:30:14different things on it and people have
0:30:16years and their Wi-Fi passwords and it's
0:30:18like 1999 oh yeah mine's 2008 if I'm not
0:30:21mistaken
0:30:22yeah Wi-Fi really needs like a like a
0:30:24token system like like oh where you can
0:30:26just like issue devices tokens then like
0:30:28you can change the password for new
0:30:30devices really so before everyone writes
0:30:34in I know there are flavors of Wi-Fi
0:30:36security that allow that sort of thing
0:30:38but it isn't generally speaking it is
0:30:41not the sort of thing you will ever find
0:30:42somebody's house is that like they'll do
0:30:44there is the possible yeah yeah and
0:30:46there I've seen installations in the
0:30:48home that will do this sort of thing I
0:30:50understand that's a thing it doesn't
0:30:52really matter the details like a friend
0:30:53of mine had some set up with like a
0:30:55Raspberry Pi or some such where you
0:30:57would push a little button on some
0:30:58device it would actually like print out
0:30:59a temporary Wi-Fi password for you just
0:31:01because this is the sort of thing you
0:31:02did
0:31:02for living so you had like crazy
0:31:04enterprise hardware in his house and it
0:31:06was actually very cool but but yeah for
0:31:08any normal person you're absolutely
0:31:10right Marco like this would be kind of
0:31:13cool if it was usable and I consider
0:31:15myself a normal person in this context
0:31:17because I'm not like a super network
0:31:18administrator so yeah so for me to like
0:31:21issue a temporary password would be
0:31:22pretty neat but that's not the sort of
0:31:24thing you find in normal like wpa2 or
0:31:26whatever it is households all right
0:31:29moving on a friend of the show Steven
0:31:30Smith he pointed out that drag-and-drop
0:31:33upload of files to Mobile Safari works
0:31:36now and I actually saw I don't think I'm
0:31:38going to have it handy and I'm not gonna
0:31:39be able to dig it up but I think it was
0:31:40trendy Caldwell had a tweet about this
0:31:43you can take several files from say like
0:31:47the files app for example and you can
0:31:50drag them into mobile safari much like
0:31:53you would do in regular desktop safari
0:31:55and it will actually upload all of those
0:31:57files which is super cool
0:31:59it's another thing Marko's ipad can do
0:32:02that my Mac can also do finally file
0:32:05uploads the final frontier for iOS web
0:32:08violence my word I put this in here is
0:32:13because not to get like dragon drop
0:32:14forks ever but because until I read this
0:32:16it wouldn't have even occurred to me to
0:32:18try that on iOS because I've been so
0:32:20conditioned but from so many years yeah
0:32:21you're gonna do like a file upload you
0:32:24got to go to a Mac for that right and
0:32:26even though we all know drag and drop is
0:32:28there I wouldn't like you have to change
0:32:29your mindset now with these drag and
0:32:31drop features to think to try something
0:32:33instead of just like walling it off in
0:32:35your mind is like oh you can only do
0:32:36that in the desktop not true anymore
0:32:38with iOS 11 this is I think going to be
0:32:40like one of the I mean this is always
0:32:41the case like with new platforms but
0:32:43like this is one of the reasons why I
0:32:44think young people have a way better
0:32:46chance of working on these platforms
0:32:47than we do because like it is so easy as
0:32:50someone who's been who's been around
0:32:52since the early days of iOS like us you
0:32:54know it's so easy to forget all the new
0:32:56things that you can do that you used to
0:32:58not be able to do and we just don't even
0:33:00think to try those things because we
0:33:02like quote know it you know
0:33:04subconsciously we just know that's
0:33:05that's nothing you can do here and like
0:33:07you need somebody younger than you like
0:33:09fatigued she to come around and be like
0:33:10no look you can do all this crap you
0:33:12guys are done and he's not that mean of
0:33:13course he's super nice but you know he's
0:33:15young at heart
0:33:16heeey yeah like you need somebody who's
0:33:19like more fresh to the platform or more
0:33:23willing to experiment or more
0:33:24open-minded than us old farts to to
0:33:27actually like push the boundaries of
0:33:30using the thing and actually use up as
0:33:32all these new features that we might see
0:33:34in a keynote for five seconds and
0:33:35immediately forget about the flip side
0:33:38of that by the way is whenever the
0:33:40youngsters see me and old fart use my
0:33:42Mac they never know all the things that
0:33:45I'm dragging around and like the fact
0:33:46that you you know proxy icons and title
0:33:48bars like totally undiscoverable stuff
0:33:50if you haven't been using the Mac
0:33:51forever or like which applications you
0:33:54have to hold long and then start to drag
0:33:56or start drag immediately versus holding
0:33:58to drag large pieces of text to copy it
0:34:01inside terminal without blowing away
0:34:03your buffer or you know before you even
0:34:05get into multiple clipboards and all
0:34:07those stuff there's lots of things that
0:34:09old platforms can do the young people
0:34:10don't learn as well because they didn't
0:34:12go through all the you know they didn't
0:34:15start out with a simple system and see
0:34:16new features get added they just use the
0:34:17system they use enough of the system to
0:34:19get their job done and it didn't have
0:34:21this history of learning all these other
0:34:23obscure features so there's there's
0:34:24secrets of lying and Mac OS as well
0:34:27especially if you're an old next user
0:34:28this stuff from next still lurking in
0:34:30there and there's stuff from the old Mac
0:34:31still working on there so we have
0:34:33something to teach the youth right
0:34:34before we die Wow on our slow Mac Pro's
0:34:38man you are really Jill in this homely
0:34:40Savage well I mean to be fair to be fair
0:34:43to John's very slow old Mac Pro it is
0:34:45really impress is kind of an argument
0:34:47for the Mac Pro that first of all that
0:34:50he's still using it almost ten years
0:34:51later and it's mostly fine a second of
0:34:54all its argument for upgrade ability
0:34:55because upgrades like an SSD and a new
0:34:57GPU have made this possible and third of
0:35:00all it really shows quite the difference
0:35:03when you buy a Mac Pro like the mat like
0:35:06the iOS hardware surpassed five-year old
0:35:09Macs you know long ago but it took it
0:35:13took until now for it to surpass this
0:35:14ten-year old Mac in multi-core
0:35:16performance is when you have eight cores
0:35:18it takes a long time for things to catch
0:35:21up to that and like one of the reasons
0:35:23why I love the Mac Pro so much is you
0:35:25get so much Headroom like you literally
0:35:29you know you're
0:35:30the core performance is always limited
0:35:31by whatever the technology of the era is
0:35:34for single core design but they cram so
0:35:38many cores in there that for parallel
0:35:40workloads which is what a lot of pros do
0:35:42you can basically buy yourself 10 years
0:35:46from now levels of performance today and
0:35:49so the Mac Pro like it's it's it's
0:35:51useful to a lot of types of people for
0:35:54way longer than any other computer is so
0:35:57that I it's it that just shows like why
0:36:00having these high core count
0:36:02workstations is still valuable because
0:36:04you're literally buying yourself like a
0:36:06place 10 years from now performance just
0:36:09wait for the iMac Pro with its 18 cores
0:36:11that'll give you another good head start
0:36:13on the phones okay so we made a
0:36:17reference to it earlier but there were a
0:36:19couple of things that were I mean the
0:36:20whole show was interesting but a couple
0:36:21of interesting tidbits that came out of
0:36:22the talk show live from last week so
0:36:25this was as per tradition it was John
0:36:28Gruber and then as of the last couple of
0:36:30years it's been Phil Schiller and Craig
0:36:32federighi and as usual was a great show
0:36:35I like that John doesn't just throw up
0:36:40the softball questions and I can't think
0:36:42of Tom my head of what the hard balls
0:36:43were but he always asked at least a few
0:36:45hard balls which I liked and at one
0:36:46point at the end chiller actually said
0:36:48to him hey man in so many words you know
0:36:51hey man you always say a couple weeks
0:36:53later man I wish I asked Schiller this
0:36:54so what do you got and I think it took
0:36:58Gruber by surprise which was kind of
0:37:00funny and and I forget exactly what he
0:37:02came up with but in summary it was a
0:37:04really great show if you haven't
0:37:06listened to it and/or watched it because
0:37:07there's a video available you really
0:37:09really should and John and I had the
0:37:11pleasure of being seated front row and
0:37:13watching it Marco had the pleasure of
0:37:14sitting in a 90-degree a sound booth in
0:37:17watching slash listening to it but but
0:37:21there were some interesting things that
0:37:22came from it one of them was the trial a
0:37:24PFS migrations we mentioned earlier but
0:37:26the other thing that all of us I think
0:37:28picked up on were also amazed by was the
0:37:31photo data that is synced in between
0:37:34devices which was mentioned in the
0:37:35keynote or maybe not the keynote with
0:37:37the State of the Union if not that isn't
0:37:40what we thought it was so the way
0:37:44I understood what was said in whatever
0:37:47keynoter State of the Union was that hey
0:37:49all of the metadata that we generate
0:37:51during the photo crawl process on any of
0:37:55our devices all of that is getting
0:37:57synced v iCloud to all your other
0:37:59devices we were all very very very
0:38:01excited about this turns out that that
0:38:04is not the case and what's actually
0:38:06happening is only the stuff that that
0:38:09Apple has complete certainty in and I'm
0:38:12slightly paraphrasing Craig here only
0:38:15the stuff that Apple is complete
0:38:16certainty in is what's inked which in
0:38:18turn means only the stuff that a user
0:38:20has actively said yes or no to so in the
0:38:23case of photos what that means is if
0:38:25there is a photo that has the three of
0:38:27us in it and I as a user say that one is
0:38:29Marco and that one is John that photo in
0:38:32the information about it that I've
0:38:33provided will be synced to B iCloud to
0:38:35the other devices but anything else any
0:38:37of the generated like metadata and all
0:38:39that that isn't synced at all which
0:38:42probably isn't a bad thing but I
0:38:45wouldn't necessarily it's a good say
0:38:46it's a good thing either and I presume
0:38:48that this is because of privacy concerns
0:38:50but it was I feel like it was a little
0:38:52bit of a bait-and-switch or maybe I just
0:38:54misunderstood what was said Nikki no but
0:38:55it felt like a bait-and-switch
0:38:56compared to earlier that week when we
0:38:59had heard oh yeah we're syncing things
0:39:00between devices it's great yeah I get I
0:39:03understand why they're doing it this way
0:39:07but I think it's the wrong choice so
0:39:08like you know basically you know that
0:39:10there are there were a few problems with
0:39:12the way it was before you know problem
0:39:14number one was that your if you actually
0:39:17took the time to enter things like like
0:39:19faces data that wasn't syncing multiple
0:39:22devices so it kind of it was very
0:39:24frustrating it's it's like a form of
0:39:25data loss like you input that on one
0:39:27device but then like you go to some
0:39:28other device and it's not there or it's
0:39:30different so that's no good so that's
0:39:32the part they're sinking problem number
0:39:33two is that every time you do an OS
0:39:36restore or get a new phone or replace a
0:39:38phone from service or a new Mac or any
0:39:41of any any new devices with with photos
0:39:43on them your device would basically run
0:39:47really hot and have terrible battery
0:39:49life if it if it misbehaved and CPU to
0:39:52be maxed out for hours or days after you
0:39:55got it as photo analysis do
0:39:58he went through your entire photo
0:39:59library and tried to recognize objects
0:40:02in the photos so you could search for
0:40:03them that one they didn't fix that one
0:40:07is still being done on all the different
0:40:09devices individually and it sounds like
0:40:11the reason why is because that's
0:40:14something that they're kind of guessing
0:40:16on each device they're like they're
0:40:18using you know machine learning to try
0:40:21to figure these things out and that's
0:40:23fine but it seems like the reason why
0:40:28they don't want to sync that is so that
0:40:31a newer device that maybe has a newer OS
0:40:34that can be smarter about what it
0:40:36recognizes you can get smarter results
0:40:39on that and that way you don't have like
0:40:40bad results synced forever from old
0:40:44photos but that creates the experience
0:40:46not only of having your devices be
0:40:48really hot for the first couple days you
0:40:50have them and your CPU core if you maxed
0:40:52out for a long time but that also makes
0:40:54so that you get different search results
0:40:56on different devices for like the same
0:40:59query and that's not really great either
0:41:02so I'm not really sure what what led
0:41:06them to make this decision there's
0:41:07probably more information here that we
0:41:08don't have I'm sure there were good
0:41:10reasons but from where I sit from the
0:41:14from the subset of the real information
0:41:16that I have I still think it's the wrong
0:41:19choice yeah it's not just an object
0:41:22recognition to the faces thing is the
0:41:24thing that bothers me the most because I
0:41:26think most people don't spend that much
0:41:29time confirming faces because it's
0:41:31annoying to do you confirm some or
0:41:33whatever the width system is supposed to
0:41:34work especially on a single you know
0:41:36device scenario is you confirm bunch of
0:41:39pages to say yes no no yes maybe make
0:41:41some Corrections and based on your
0:41:43confirmations the system then guesses
0:41:47all the other pictures that have this
0:41:49person's face in them and that type of
0:41:52feature I've always wanted this facial
0:41:54recognition feature to replace my manual
0:41:56tagging system or if I want to find all
0:41:58pictures of my wife I don't want to have
0:42:01to manually tag every single picture
0:42:03that she's in I just want to tell the
0:42:04system this is her this is our this is
0:42:07our this er I'll do that a hundred times
0:42:08like I am sure I've spent way more time
0:42:10in that photo
0:42:11Confirmation thing then most people have
0:42:13right and then based on that data set
0:42:15find all the other ones and the end of
0:42:18my interface to this is I want you know
0:42:20somewhere in the sidebar like a smart
0:42:22folder or whatever to say you know
0:42:24pictures of my wife right and as far as
0:42:27I'm concerned the set of pictures of my
0:42:30wife is not a thing like finding like
0:42:32telephone or plastic or like you know
0:42:35garbage can in a picture that new
0:42:37versions and different machine learning
0:42:39AI algorithms can you know do better and
0:42:42future things it should be the same like
0:42:45I want it to be at the same as if I had
0:42:47manually tagged it right and and I want
0:42:50the same experience on every device
0:42:52right and if it is better in some future
0:42:55device because it's like well we are
0:42:56technically guessing and this one is
0:42:57able to guess better if it is better
0:42:59another device they just need to like
0:43:00version that stuff or or you know that
0:43:02so that when as soon as they get the
0:43:05better version sync the better version
0:43:06ever at bottom line if I have that Smart
0:43:08Folder wherever this is pictures of my
0:43:09wife I don't want to see wildly
0:43:11different counts on them and they will
0:43:13be pretty different because depending on
0:43:15how much time you spent adding the
0:43:17people's faces or how many other people
0:43:18you have look similar or whatever I
0:43:20don't want it to to Regas at different
0:43:22times and see like oh why do I have a
0:43:24different number of pictures of my wife
0:43:25nice two devices you don't it's just
0:43:26that one has a different notion of how
0:43:28many pictures of your wife there are
0:43:29because there even though they're both
0:43:30working from the same small data set of
0:43:32manual selected pictures is too much
0:43:33variability blah blah I know it's better
0:43:36than it was but I still think this room
0:43:38to grow it's always funny to me that uh
0:43:40that Craig seems not like obviously
0:43:45uncomfortable but not totally in love
0:43:49with being on stage and I think we
0:43:50talked about this last year too until it
0:43:53a technical thing comes up and suddenly
0:43:57everything changes and he's like super
0:44:00confident
0:44:01awesome engineer guy it to the point
0:44:03that like his depth of knowledge in
0:44:05things that that are reasonably I don't
0:44:10know esoteric is the right word but like
0:44:11he'll happily go deep on damn near
0:44:15anything on the drop of a hat and I
0:44:19don't know how the man can keep that
0:44:21much stuff in his head it's just
0:44:22stunning to me because especially my
0:44:25stereotypical view of managers is that
0:44:27they're so far outside of the weeds
0:44:29there their gills they're sitting on
0:44:31their fancy Thrones looking down at
0:44:33their kingdom of minions and saying Oh
0:44:34minions take care of things not having
0:44:36any idea what the weeds are and what's
0:44:38in the weeds etc but but he can go all
0:44:41the way down like on anything it's just
0:44:43stunning and I mana I love listening to
0:44:46him talk that guy's well and Phil is
0:44:47great as well don't get me wrong but but
0:44:49man Craig is a a nerds nerd I dig it
0:44:51agreed I didn't listen to the recording
0:44:53you know because I saw a live but in the
0:44:57live thing there was one heckler who
0:44:59shouted out to her one clan Joe when is
0:45:02Siri going to get better I don't know if
0:45:04they cut that out of the final recording
0:45:05but that did happen no it's it's there
0:45:07but they you know they didn't address it
0:45:09because it was like they were basically
0:45:11like John was like in the middle of
0:45:12asking a question so they just kept
0:45:14moving like cuz it was it was not like
0:45:16at a at a pull at a point where it even
0:45:18makes sense to address it yeah so
0:45:20there's two ways you can go on this one
0:45:21is that from a hosting perspective it's
0:45:24a good idea not to encourage hecklers by
0:45:25by addressing them right so John
0:45:28ignoring the heckler is the way of
0:45:30saying don't heckle but in my show it's
0:45:32my show I'm going to pretend you don't
0:45:33exist on the other hand when is Siri get
0:45:36better so okay that that is a line of
0:45:41questioning that could have been brought
0:45:43up in the context of home pod or
0:45:45whatever and I think well but but again
0:45:47like when you have limited time on stage
0:45:50with Apple executives to ask questions
0:45:52there you have to have some degree of
0:45:55just predicting like you know what's a
0:45:57good question here like what's actually
0:45:58a good use of time and a question we're
0:46:01just going to give like a pretty canned
0:46:03PR like answer is not a good use of time
0:46:06because like what do you like what are
0:46:09they gonna say on stage
0:46:10what like do you honestly think like
0:46:12Phil Schiller is going to be on stage
0:46:14and be like yeah you know what you're
0:46:15right Syria isn't very good we're
0:46:17working on it like no like of course not
0:46:18like it's going to be an answer of you
0:46:21know even if you ask that question
0:46:22directly to them it's going to be a
0:46:25relatively you know information less
0:46:28answer of like well it's it's here's all
0:46:30the ways it's already world-leading and
0:46:32it's always getting better you know it's
0:46:33it's it's a PR question that's going to
0:46:36get a PR answer it's like all the
0:46:38stupid analyst questions on the on the
0:46:40earnings calls when you go make a TV
0:46:42it's like you know that kind of stuff
0:46:43that's not it's a useful question
0:46:45because you know they're not really
0:46:47going to give you an answer that you
0:46:48want so you might as well not even waste
0:46:51time on it and ask a better question so
0:46:53I think you can ask this question in a
0:46:55way they will get a non PR vague answer
0:46:59because Apple itself open the door to
0:47:02this line of questioning with their home
0:47:03pod announcement I said this in the last
0:47:04show too but to reiterate and further
0:47:07emphasize Apple's pitch for home pod was
0:47:11look at these two competitors Sonos and
0:47:13the Amazon echo so know it sounds good
0:47:16but it's dumb Amazon echo sounds like
0:47:18crap but is smart home pod sounds great
0:47:21and is smart typical great Apple sales
0:47:24pitch for the thing right but the own
0:47:27that so here's Apple opening the door
0:47:28but the only thing Apple demonstrated or
0:47:31in any way described both in the the
0:47:34live room where the press could hear it
0:47:36and in the slides they talked about it
0:47:37well we know how home pod sounds good
0:47:39because a whole bunch of people heard it
0:47:41and they said hey this thing sounds good
0:47:43it sounds you know as good or better
0:47:45than the Sonos which was the thing app I
0:47:46held up a sounding good but the pitch of
0:47:48home pod is unlike those two other
0:47:50devices this one sounds good and is
0:47:53smart right Apple itself is saying we're
0:47:56making a device that combines the best
0:47:58of these two things so the is smart part
0:48:01is your entree to say okay Apple you
0:48:03have presented us with home pod telling
0:48:05us it is going to be as smart as echo
0:48:07and sound as good as Sonos do you think
0:48:11Siri is currently a smart as echo or
0:48:13will it be getting better for home pod
0:48:15because it's not you know it's not a
0:48:16gotcha question like they haven't is the
0:48:18product isn't done yet like they did
0:48:20list a bunch of stuff that it's going to
0:48:21do on the slide here's all the things
0:48:22that home pod is going to do that are
0:48:24smart right so they put them up there
0:48:25but I think it's open question at this
0:48:27point okay like it gives them an
0:48:29opportunity to brag about the product
0:48:31they just announced they should say the
0:48:32good answer is this is going to you know
0:48:35home PI is going to be great it's going
0:48:36to be just as smart as Amazon echo it's
0:48:38going to do all these things so and so
0:48:39forth that's the answer to when is Siri
0:48:40going to get better it's going to say
0:48:41okay when home pod comes out Siri will
0:48:44be much better than it is now and they
0:48:46can explain all the reasons why or the
0:48:48progress they've made on Syria I feel
0:48:49like it is an opening for Apple to bro
0:48:51about the product they just announced
0:48:52but in in the stuff that they put out in
0:48:55the keynote and in every part of WWDC
0:48:58the only thing they demonstrated or
0:49:01pressed on at all was that it sounds
0:49:02good and the smarts they're like it'll
0:49:05be smart stresses we'll see which is
0:49:06fine like but now that's what I'm
0:49:07waiting for
0:49:08is your kind of work if this thing is
0:49:09just a Sonos you know if it's just a
0:49:11Sonos with like existing Siri built-in I
0:49:13mean I guess it's still smarter than
0:49:14Sonos you know but is it as smart as
0:49:16that go you know we'll see so I think
0:49:18this is this is the competitive question
0:49:20for the home pod Apple's pitch is clear
0:49:22we have to see if they can deliver yeah
0:49:24that's the thing like they really they
0:49:26showed us the home pod and they showed
0:49:28us why we should care about it and why
0:49:30it's cool but they didn't they didn't
0:49:34convince us like they didn't really like
0:49:37all they said was basically like it
0:49:39sounds great trust us and that's cool I
0:49:41mean the press hard press harder and
0:49:43they said it does sound good yep and
0:49:44that's great but but again but you know
0:49:46what you're saying is like that doesn't
0:49:48actually put it above where show nose is
0:49:50now all we have is a vague promise that
0:49:53it has Siri and it is smart but they
0:49:56didn't actually show that and I think
0:49:59you're right I think it's mostly because
0:50:01it's pretty clear that it's pretty far
0:50:04from being done not done yet so like
0:50:06they're hiding it if they could have
0:50:08demoed it they would have yeah I would
0:50:10honestly the the fact that it appears to
0:50:13be in such an early state now if they
0:50:15couldn't even demo a single Siri command
0:50:18but they say it's going to be shipping
0:50:20in December that actually sounds really
0:50:22aggressive to me I would be impressed if
0:50:24they hit that because it sure looks like
0:50:26it's a year away one of the well as
0:50:28December launches just in time for the
0:50:30holiday oh never mind March we are
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0:52:02WBC keynote and TV OS one of you picked
0:52:06up on and I it was not me a quote you'll
0:52:09be hearing a lot more about TV OS later
0:52:12this year and apparently it's a just shy
0:52:15nine minutes through the keynote
0:52:16interesting well first of all isn't hard
0:52:19to hear less about TV OS yeah it's a lot
0:52:22more though is it a lot we heard
0:52:24something about TV OS they're like look
0:52:26dark mode can turn on automatically at
0:52:27night
0:52:28that's something so it's nonzero and
0:52:30we're gonna be hearing a lot more about
0:52:31it later yeah I mean I guess that that
0:52:34means is gonna be like hardware and
0:52:36stuff like I'm sure that you know it
0:52:37would be nice to see 4k it would nice to
0:52:39see a redesign remote they're probably
0:52:41gonna tell or redesign remote oh you
0:52:45wanted to keep the current one I'm just
0:52:46like I wasn't even daring to think that
0:52:49I was just picturing the puck I'm like
0:52:50oh it'll finally be a puck that supports
0:52:514k and HEV C and they'll be 4k content
0:52:54on the iTunes Store I didn't dare to
0:52:55even dream that they would fix that damn
0:52:57remote but I suppose they could I
0:52:59suspect the Apple TV remote is going to
0:53:02be looked upon in retrospect the same
0:53:04way the hockey puck Mouse is as like the
0:53:07worst design offence of the decade by
0:53:09Apple I really don't think it's that bad
0:53:11I will not say it's flawless by any
0:53:13stretch but it doesn't problem II near
0:53:15as much as it bothers pretty much
0:53:17everyone else in the world
0:53:18so I will never do the dented version
0:53:20the puck they they tried to like fix it
0:53:23they're like Oh puck the fuck is a
0:53:24problem so they put a little dent in
0:53:26like the button so you could feel for
0:53:28which side of is the top they should do
0:53:29that with the whole TV remote
0:53:31just put a dent and I guess you can't do
0:53:32it on a trackpad so I'd put a dent in
0:53:34the bottom side or something's you can
0:53:35feel for I mean yeah it's it's not great
0:53:39I'm not trying to say that it's grated
0:53:41flawless or anything like that but I
0:53:42just I really don't think it's that bad
0:53:44it works okay for me okay it is that I
0:53:47look better than the Apple TV remote
0:53:49your computer was like turning itself
0:53:51off randomly and you're like this is
0:53:53fine like this you might you might need
0:53:57to raise your expectations a bit of what
0:53:58technology should be especially for my
0:54:00evil you know like right this says
0:54:03whatever would be happy oh the thing I
0:54:06still use the Apple TV every day it is
0:54:08our primary TV device like the only
0:54:11things we ever use our TV for are the
0:54:13Apple TV and the switch and and so it's
0:54:16I use it all the time because why I'm so
0:54:18critical of it like one thing I would
0:54:19love to see in TV OS and this is thing
0:54:21like they say like you know be hearing
0:54:22more about TV iOS later this year
0:54:24actually all I want is hardware stuff
0:54:27like hardware changes I basically want a
0:54:30new remote 4k would be nice I don't have
0:54:32a 4k TV yet but it's probably going to
0:54:34happen with the next couple years so
0:54:35that would be nice and TV OS and maybe
0:54:40it's the hardware maybe it's a software
0:54:41I don't know it's just really slow I
0:54:45don't know why this is current hardware
0:54:48that isn't that old it's so slow I think
0:54:52the remote makes it feel slow it like
0:54:54because it's a clumsy if you don't like
0:54:56so by the way we always complain about
0:54:57the remote and I just want to
0:54:58re-emphasize this again Apple TV has an
0:55:00ability to learn remotes and if you are
0:55:02a lifetime TiVo customer like me you
0:55:04have extra TiVo remotes hanging around
0:55:06you can use an old TiVo remote with the
0:55:08Apple TV and makes it way better but um
0:55:10it doesn't have touchpad obviously but
0:55:12it has a five-way pad and I think
0:55:14clumsily swiping on that touchpad to
0:55:16move the focus feel slower than tap
0:55:20tapping on a digital you know right left
0:55:22up down Center d-pad so I attribute some
0:55:25of the slowest in that there's more with
0:55:27like hey I hit the little home button
0:55:30how long does it take for me to get
0:55:32out of this app and go back to the
0:55:33whatever screen that also feels slow but
0:55:36I tribute a lot of it to the remote well
0:55:37and some of it's clearly software some
0:55:39of it is like you know you'd like you
0:55:40you wake up the remote when you're
0:55:42sitting down and a few seconds later
0:55:45eventually you see the home screen okay
0:55:48swipe over to the thing you want oh
0:55:50nothing happened
0:55:51swipe swipe swipe swipe swipe swipe
0:55:52swipe swipe wait wait what's going on
0:55:55button button button swipe swipe swipe
0:55:56come on push everything what's going on
0:55:57wait wait wait
0:56:00and then BOOM everything happens all was
0:56:02queued up all that time is it come on
0:56:04like what year is this like it this is
0:56:06this device doesn't do that much like
0:56:09what what what is it doing
0:56:10is it conserving power all that time
0:56:13they're not using it why it's part of
0:56:15the wall like what is it doing I have no
0:56:17idea what it's doing yeah
0:56:19the sleep thing is the sleep thing is
0:56:21brutal like I mean there's no fans there
0:56:24just leave it on all the time I'll take
0:56:25the energy cost if it means that I don't
0:56:27have to wait for you know the internal
0:56:29seven seconds that it takes to be ready
0:56:31to respond to my commands but that's the
0:56:32things about why it like in 2017 for the
0:56:36most expensive TV connected box
0:56:38why am I ever waiting on the box for
0:56:42anything like why when I push the menu
0:56:46button to wake it up why does it take
0:56:48more than one second to become ready and
0:56:50most of that one second should be
0:56:51waiting for my TV to recognize the input
0:56:53like there is no reason it should take
0:56:56any time at all it's not doing that much
0:56:58I don't have that many apps on it I'm
0:57:01using the same like - over and over
0:57:02again like Netflix and plex that's it
0:57:04like what what is what is it doing so
0:57:07the other hardware thing I'm looking
0:57:09forward to is as alluded to in the the
0:57:12promotion stuff a output at 24 or 48 or
0:57:16whatever you know different frame rates
0:57:18so that movies can look correct and so
0:57:21it doesn't have to down sample
0:57:23everything or whatever do three to pull
0:57:26down to output everything at sixty Hertz
0:57:27and that will be great I don't know if
0:57:31that's in the cards I would assume it is
0:57:34but a lot of the things that could
0:57:35potentially that we talked about like
0:57:36why does it happen already do this so
0:57:38changing the output framerate is
0:57:41annoying because of HDMI and
0:57:44it's not an apple act experience
0:57:46although what marketers subscribe isn't
0:57:47exactly an apple like experience either
0:57:49one possible way to sort of deal with
0:57:53this is the same way LCD TVs dealt with
0:57:55this and the past and probably still do
0:57:57is to just take a really high frame rate
0:58:00that's a multiple of 24 this isn't you
0:58:03know you still ideally you should be
0:58:05able to support any reasonable frame
0:58:07rate but if you could just get 24 60 and
0:58:1030 or something that would go a long way
0:58:14so I'm I am looking forward to this is a
0:58:15lot of things that I would like to watch
0:58:17okay I had bought a blu-ray drive a
0:58:19while back because it was cheap to rip
0:58:23blu-rays so and I was like no well I
0:58:25have all the storage space why don't I
0:58:26lost Leslie rip them and have a way to
0:58:30watch any movie a blu-ray quality
0:58:32through Plex on my TV the problem is I
0:58:36have no device connected to my
0:58:38television that can read a ripped
0:58:40blu-ray and play it on my television at
0:58:43the correct 24 frames per second cadence
0:58:45for you know movies and stuff so I still
0:58:47have to put the blue area in the drive
0:58:49in my PlayStation 3 by the way which
0:58:50does output correct 24 frames per second
0:58:52cadence to my television which does
0:58:54display correctly and I can watch my
0:58:57boos the way I want to with plastic
0:58:58discs but I'm just waiting for maybe I
0:59:01have to wait for a new TV but it could
0:59:02be that Apple says now we're never going
0:59:04to support 24 frames per second on your
0:59:05old plasma TV get a new 4k TV with 240
0:59:09or 120 Hertz refresh and hook it up to a
0:59:11new Apple TV and that's how we'll deal
0:59:14with it and I suppose I'll do that like
0:59:15Marco eventually fair enough but yeah
0:59:19we'll see what the announcements that
0:59:21are first coming include but apparently
0:59:23whenever the next grant or season starts
0:59:26if any of us choose to watch it which is
0:59:28dateable I can tell you one thing I'm
0:59:30not so yeah it's you guys if you want to
0:59:34watch it
0:59:34I certainly will but we'll see what
0:59:36happens but anyway apparently that'll be
0:59:38on the Apple TV I have to reserve all my
0:59:40TV watching time now for planet of the
0:59:42apps I didn't see the first one because
0:59:44I'm not an apple music subscriber but
0:59:46did you guys I haven't watched it's on
0:59:48my to-do list I I did not do my homework
0:59:50I did not watch planned out of the app
0:59:51really but I do plan to watch it I I
0:59:55think I should see it just
0:59:58to know what it is and to know whether L
0:59:58to know what it is and to know whether L
1:00:00like it or not I'm gonna have a somewhat
1:00:02interesting perspective maybe because
1:00:04I've never seen shark tank or any of the
1:00:06shows like shark tank so it might be
1:00:10slightly interesting for me to see it
1:00:11but I based on the reviews from our
1:00:13friends stuff so far I don't have high
1:00:15hopes but I do want to give it a chance
1:00:17yeah I'm gonna need a reason right now I
1:00:23don't have a reason and everyone who has
1:00:24seen it tells me it's bad so until I get
1:00:27a reason I will just let everyone else
1:00:28take that bullet for me fair enough all
1:00:31right
1:00:33iCloud storage prices Apple dropped the
1:00:36two terabyte iCloud storage price to
1:00:38$9.99 it eliminated one terabyte option
1:00:40so the one terabyte now is 2 terabytes
1:00:43it turns out Jason Snow had that upgrade
1:00:46happened to him one of you it sounds
1:00:47like had that upgrade happen as well yep
1:00:49came from back from that video you see
1:00:51pulled up my preference pane on my que
1:00:53guess what I got two terabytes now me
1:00:55too Merry Christmas and it actually and
1:00:57you can now share it with in families so
1:00:59I haven't actually tried this yet but
1:01:01TIFF and I have each been paying for the
1:01:03terabyte plan separately and we do have
1:01:05a family account so I want to try to see
1:01:08they might have just saved this 10 bucks
1:01:09a month do you know where you do that we
1:01:11mentioned it I actually mentioned the
1:01:12iCloud storage sharing on the last show
1:01:16but between then and now I never
1:01:17actually went onto my Mac and click
1:01:19around to try to figure out where you do
1:01:20that you happen to know I don't know
1:01:22family like manage family and the iCloud
1:01:24preferring Sam the geek and the chat is
1:01:26saying it requires iOS 11 which probably
1:01:28also means it requires high sierra and
1:01:31so as yeah so i'm this is this might be
1:01:35it has to wait till the fall yeah oh
1:01:37well can we also by the way this is not
1:01:39in the show notes but can we reconfirm
1:01:42that hi Sierra is a terrible damn name
1:01:43yeah I'm still not used to it no it's
1:01:45awesome
1:01:45alright pejorative rules sucks moving on
1:01:48and RuPaul's writes he hit regarding the
1:01:51Apple II GPU in the slide in the
1:01:55presentation in the in the keynote
1:01:56according to Andrew the pictured box is
1:01:59actually a sonnet eg FX box and we will
1:02:03put a link in the show notes to the box
1:02:06that we're talking about can you buy
1:02:09this so it says sign up for sonnet
1:02:11online shorter online store ship date so
1:02:13pair
1:02:13it is not available yet I mean you've
1:02:16been able to buy other similar boxes for
1:02:18a while now so it's not like this is a
1:02:20massive yeah you know thing that's
1:02:22that's all the sudden brand new maybe
1:02:24different maybe support for it in the OS
1:02:26is newer than that but the actual boxes
1:02:29are nothing new yeah people have been
1:02:30hacking this stuff together ever since
1:02:32Thunderbolt appeared even Thunderbolt 2
1:02:34and by the way someone wrote in saying
1:02:36that if you're wondering if Thunderbolt
1:02:392 is going to be officially supported by
1:02:40Apple for external GPUs the answer
1:02:42appears to be no Thunderbolt 3 only so
1:02:44oh well and by the way on that topic
1:02:47talk about more things that happen later
1:02:49than vici WABC Apple itself in one of
1:02:51the one of the sessions I think it was
1:02:52the AR or the VR thing or something put
1:02:54up a diagram that like with it with a
1:02:57graph that in no uncertain terms
1:02:59explained exactly how slow ton or
1:03:01Thunderbolt 3 is compared to like
1:03:03internal cards to say all right so does
1:03:06it's for programmers like you would
1:03:07think ok internal GPU external GPO it
1:03:10doesn't make that much of a difference
1:03:11it's like it's all good Thunderbolt 3 is
1:03:13really fast but it's not it's like a
1:03:15quarter of the speed of an internal card
1:03:17and maybe your application doesn't need
1:03:19that but if you're not careful and you
1:03:20don't realize that your application is
1:03:22shipping stuff to and from the card a
1:03:23lot you're thinking a way slower an
1:03:25external GPU in this session was trying
1:03:26to emphasize like this is something you
1:03:28may not need to think about before but
1:03:30suddenly now that you're sipping through
1:03:31a smaller straw think you know you may
1:03:34need to think about it here's how you
1:03:35can you know check your application to
1:03:37see if it's doing this thing it's you
1:03:40know Apple is not a unified coordinated
1:03:42beast so it's very possible that that
1:03:45could have happened and also that that
1:03:47the future Mac Pro comes with a next
1:03:48term GPU or something but it seems to me
1:03:50that it would be a much better story
1:03:52much better coherent story even if it's
1:03:54like you know a retrospective story or
1:03:58in hindsight to say and that's why the
1:04:00Mac Pro has multiple internal GPUs
1:04:02because we don't have to worry about
1:04:03limited Thunderbolt 3 been we've got the
1:04:06full 16 PCI Express Lanes and your apps
1:04:08will just be superfast all the time and
1:04:10there's your Mac Pro I hope that's the
1:04:13case
1:04:13yeah I mean that's gotta be the case
1:04:15because like if that wasn't the case the
1:04:17iMac pro would beat the Mac Pro in GPU
1:04:20throughput well there's no external
1:04:21stuff on my micro its all-in-one yeah so
1:04:23no I'm pretty you know the e GPU support
1:04:26is
1:04:27is clearly meant for laptops like that's
1:04:29really what this is for it's for pro
1:04:32customers who have pro GPU needs who are
1:04:34using a MacBook Pro and they and they
1:04:36want something they can like dock with
1:04:38that has a big GPU for certain things
1:04:40but if you're going to be really pushing
1:04:42it the answer is still going to be get a
1:04:44desktop and probably get a Mac Pro or at
1:04:47least my Mac Pro indeed all right uh
1:04:51mattias bessman writes in with some
1:04:54nitpicky follow up in into his credit he
1:04:57actually labeled it himself as nitpicky
1:05:00follow-up Apple did actually have a
1:05:02previous Bluetooth keep on stealing
1:05:05Hackett they wrote this in Apple Apple
1:05:07that did actually have a Bluetooth uh
1:05:08keyboard on pad previously the Apple
1:05:11wireless keyboard which is a one zero
1:05:13one six and this was in 2003 uh we will
1:05:16put a google image search in the show
1:05:19notes for your viewing pleasure
1:05:20apparently it was a thing in the past
1:05:22and this is remember the keyboard I
1:05:25remember the I remember seeing it I
1:05:28never bought a Mac that came with this
1:05:29but when I was Matt curious for the few
1:05:32years before about my first Mac this was
1:05:34the one that was in the stores that I
1:05:35would that I would play with and then
1:05:37and try it's the one with the with the
1:05:39white keys and the clear plastic case
1:05:41around them so I've got one of these I'm
1:05:44course again full unsub might write this
1:05:46keyboard is most notable for being
1:05:50perhaps the most disgusting keyboard
1:05:52apple has ever made because like the
1:05:54entire top of it is open it's kind of
1:05:55like a bathtub like a clear plastic
1:05:57little tub and the keys are in it and it
1:06:00as like food and gross stuff falls
1:06:03between the keys the keyboard you can
1:06:05see it's like a glass-bottom boat for
1:06:07the scum of your keyboard you can see
1:06:09all the crap it is the worst like
1:06:11nothing makes you feel more disgusting
1:06:13than having one of these keyboards than
1:06:14just like tilting it up and looking at
1:06:16the sides at the bottom like the worst
1:06:19it's amazing sounds wonderful ever since
1:06:22then they've been opaque for a reason
1:06:24and way thinner like this is giant like
1:06:26this thing do you believe talk about key
1:06:27travel like the keys alone or like three
1:06:29times the thickness of the half aluminum
1:06:31key ports I would still prefer that oh
1:06:33here we go the keys the keys on this car
1:06:36keyboard were not great by the way like
1:06:38this like I was using like the reason I
1:06:40use my Apple extend
1:06:40- up until our si stopped me from doing
1:06:42it this was not a good keyboard in any
1:06:45sense of the word if we just not get
1:06:47Marco started on keyboards which
1:06:48actually uh tangential real-time
1:06:51follow-up my MacBook adorable should
1:06:54arrive tomorrow oh you don't have it yet
1:06:55oh yeah once I know about it yeah no not
1:06:58until tomorrow unfortunately but uh and
1:06:59in knowing GPS it'll be the end of the
1:07:01darn day which is frost will like
1:07:04several problems yep personal problems
1:07:06if there are any uh okay moving on uh
1:07:08there was some anonymous feedback about
1:07:10the home pod screen and and we're
1:07:13putting them quotes and so to set a
1:07:16little bit of context um there is
1:07:19there's been a little bit of debate over
1:07:21whether or not the home pod has a screen
1:07:25on the top and I think that some people
1:07:28had said like there were some leaks
1:07:29beforehand that it either absolutely
1:07:32would or absolutely would not have a
1:07:34screen and whatever the leak was doesn't
1:07:35really matter and then when I when it
1:07:38was announced last week there was a lot
1:07:41of debate over whether or not what they
1:07:43showed is or is not a screen because all
1:07:46they really showed was this like Siri
1:07:48waveform on the top of the device this
1:07:50is parallel with like the the surface
1:07:52its resting on parallel with the floor
1:07:54it's the Siri looking waveform on the
1:07:56top is that really a scream like you
1:07:59could hypothetically present that just
1:08:02by by having some LEDs like a you know a
1:08:04handful of larger LED lights behind some
1:08:06sort of like translucent top
1:08:09can you really interact with that can
1:08:10you show anything on that screen or can
1:08:12you only show the waveform and nothing
1:08:14else and so and also complicating
1:08:16matters some people have said that it
1:08:19can also show a plus and minus for
1:08:21volume control that are touch sensitive
1:08:23so there's some speculation but is it
1:08:25it's actually a touchscreen right and so
1:08:27there was some debate about this gruber
1:08:29I don't remember what side he came down
1:08:31on it doesn't really matter but he said
1:08:33it's one thing there are many people who
1:08:35disagreed so an anonymous person wrote
1:08:37in and told it's told us the following
1:08:39the Siri waveform on the top of the
1:08:40device is an LED array covered by a
1:08:42circular feathered mask to prevent bleed
1:08:45and a diffuser or two each led is rather
1:08:49large about half a centimeter in
1:08:50diameter arranged in a somewhat circular
1:08:52pattern
1:08:53this is only to display the Siri
1:08:55waveform but it does change behavior in
1:08:57color based on the state of Siri and the
1:09:00device there are also plus and minus
1:09:02buttons like Marco was commenting on for
1:09:04volume control which appeared during
1:09:05music playback or when hovering your
1:09:07hand over the device these work
1:09:08similarly similarly to the waveform and
1:09:10that they are white LEDs covered by mask
1:09:12and diffuser the entire top panel is
1:09:14covered in glass this individual would
1:09:16consider the controls more like a
1:09:17capacitive more like a passive buttons
1:09:19rather than a full-on display however
1:09:20the entire top panel is capacitive so
1:09:22gestures could hypothetically be
1:09:24performed for additional controls like a
1:09:26tap double tap swipe et cetera and this
1:09:29seems to be true as of what we saw at
1:09:32dub dub I don't know where I come down
1:09:35on this like I don't think it's a screen
1:09:38in the sense that most people mean and
1:09:40that it can show really anything I mean
1:09:43if that's the screen then the Amazon
1:09:45echo has a screen because the Amika the
1:09:46echo also has a whole bunch of LEDs on
1:09:48top that show different states right so
1:09:51it's it's it's like a semantic I think
1:09:54it comes down to a semantic argument
1:09:56about what is or is not a screen and I
1:09:58don't think it really matters but this
1:10:00was certainly some interesting feedback
1:10:01about how supposedly this is all wired
1:10:04together under the hood yeah I mean
1:10:05that's that's that's not a screen that's
1:10:07indicator lights you know it's it's
1:10:09indicating state with lights like that
1:10:11that is very much not a screen that
1:10:14might still be very useful I mean the
1:10:16LEDs on the Amazon echo cylinders are
1:10:18very useful they're they're quite nice
1:10:19they they do indicate the state of the
1:10:21device and they provide useful feedback
1:10:23so it's not to say that this is bad
1:10:26however I would never in a million your
1:10:28status has a screen and I think in this
1:10:31day and age I think what we're seeing
1:10:33from this market is maybe there's
1:10:36something to having a screen there are
1:10:38certainly cases where at least having
1:10:39some kind of screen output would be nice
1:10:43such as watching a timer countdown so it
1:10:46depends I think if this is very early
1:10:50Hardware probably you know this is
1:10:51probably why you couldn't even you know
1:10:53demo Siri and stuff on it so this could
1:10:56change that could be a placeholder maybe
1:10:58maybe the software UI for the final
1:11:02screen that will be there wasn't ready
1:11:05yet and so they just put this thing in
1:11:06there as a temper
1:11:07anything to show the demo units during
1:11:09this like listening test and stuff we
1:11:11don't actually know yet it does seem
1:11:13like a lot of stuff to put in there -
1:11:16and have like a big touch panel - then
1:11:18not have at least a small OLED screen
1:11:21below like I'm thinking basically have
1:11:23it be like you know that roughly the
1:11:26capabilities of an Apple watch face you
1:11:27know like not having a ton of smarts and
1:11:29a time like you know lots of apps and
1:11:30everything but just like some display of
1:11:32some things clock weather timers you
1:11:35know basic stuff like that so that when
1:11:37you when you ask for things it can be
1:11:38more useful that would be nice however
1:11:40if the focus of this is going to remain
1:11:43pretty much mostly for music and then
1:11:46just a little bit for smart home stuff
1:11:48basically the way it was presented to us
1:11:51then it doesn't maybe need a screen like
1:11:54if the idea of this is to have it in a
1:11:56big white IKEA room with nothing in it
1:11:58and you're looking at it from 10 feet
1:12:00away when you ask it to play something
1:12:02by Drake or whoever that I don't know
1:12:06anything about music
1:12:07at least modern music then it doesn't
1:12:11then it wouldn't need a screen
1:12:12especially one on top because you won't
1:12:14be able to see it from 10 feet away but
1:12:16if you're if you if it is going to
1:12:18compete also in the smart assistant area
1:12:21which I think it should and I would like
1:12:23it to then I don't think for a three
1:12:27hundred and fifty dollar product I don't
1:12:28think that's good enough I I think it
1:12:30should have a small screen that can
1:12:32actually do things like display timers
1:12:33and so I hope this is just a placeholder
1:12:36hardware thing until they get the final
1:12:38Hardware done or it's also possible this
1:12:41tip is complete garbage Jen total BS and
1:12:43maybe that was actually a bitmap screen
1:12:45but from the way people were describing
1:12:46it who saw it who had hands-on or if you
1:12:50know but had hands-on but people were
1:12:51like in the room with it yep and from
1:12:55what we saw this does sound like a
1:12:57pretty plausible explanation for what
1:12:59that was sure and why there's why there
1:13:01is now this kind of disagreement on
1:13:03whether and I has a screen because it
1:13:04kind of looks like one but this explains
1:13:06it pretty well so does the echo have a
1:13:09touchpad on top of it no it has the the
1:13:11whole top of the echo is is a turnable
1:13:13knob so you can turn it for volume which
1:13:15is very nice and it has a physical
1:13:17channel yeah and it has two physical
1:13:19buttons on top a mute and like a
1:13:21like an action buttons like if a timers
1:13:22beeping you can hit the action button it
1:13:24stops it rather than having to say
1:13:25ìlook stop so on the Google home it
1:13:28seems like they're doing a very similar
1:13:30thing to the Apple thing where it is a
1:13:32bunch of colored LEDs like light
1:13:34changing LEDs underneath the diffuser
1:13:36type thing and for volume control in the
1:13:39Google home you trace out a circle along
1:13:42the line of the circle of elseit like it
1:13:44basically it's a touch pad like a very
1:13:46crude trackpad type thing an apple
1:13:49having a whole glass top and according
1:13:52if we should this thing is to be
1:13:53believed supporting not just arbitrary
1:13:56gestures like you would on a trackpad on
1:13:58the glass top of it but also apparently
1:14:00like hovering so the most that proximity
1:14:02detection like when your hand gets close
1:14:03to it the plus and the minus is light up
1:14:05yeah that definitely makes me think that
1:14:07this is not a temporary piece of
1:14:09hardware but like the day but this is
1:14:11this is a design that they have done
1:14:13whether they whether this is an earlier
1:14:15design and they have already changed
1:14:17their mind but they don't have a
1:14:18manufacturer and they're going to put a
1:14:19screen I'm not sure but the second thing
1:14:21is what marketers point out they can't
1:14:23put a screen on this to any great effect
1:14:25unless they totally redesign because a
1:14:26screen that faces the ceiling it's
1:14:28better than nothing but it's pretty crap
1:14:30compared to you know the Amazon whatever
1:14:33show thing like you can't glance at this
1:14:35from across the kitchen to see it your
1:14:37timer is because you probably won't even
1:14:39be able to see the top of it to see the
1:14:40time or time needs to be facing you you
1:14:42need the perfectly like multiple timers
1:14:44you can't sort of see it at an angle
1:14:46depending on where you nestle this thing
1:14:48in the corner so they need an entirely
1:14:50different device if they're going to go
1:14:51screen all which makes me think this
1:14:53thing on the top will be a thing that
1:14:55you can gesture and wiggle your fingers
1:14:57on and have some status information on
1:14:59but not a thing that Apple expects you
1:15:01to look at because it's just in the
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1:17:08our show all right so moving on to iPad
1:17:14we have a bunch of things to talk about
1:17:16but about the iPad and some of it we'll
1:17:18cover this week and I think some of it
1:17:19will cover next week because we have
1:17:21some food stories to tell but a friend
1:17:23of the show serenity Caldwell has
1:17:25written a lot about the iPad has used
1:17:28the new iPad quite a bit and has tweeted
1:17:31about the iPad a fair bit so I'm just
1:17:34going to kind of shock it approach some
1:17:36of the things she's talked about one of
1:17:38the things she was speaking of now
1:17:39serenity if you don't know her is a very
1:17:41talented illustrator I don't know if
1:17:44she's like professionally trained or not
1:17:45but Tamiya she's really really good at
1:17:46it and so she has
1:17:48some very strong and in in in good
1:17:51opinions about the pencil in a way that
1:17:53I would never be able to because I don't
1:17:55know how to draw anything but stick
1:17:56figures so so any was saying that the
1:17:58pencil has always been 240 Hertz on both
1:18:03old and new iPad pros Lightroom it
1:18:07samples a 240 Hertz right but the
1:18:09difference is is that the touch input on
1:18:12and in in bear correct me if I get this
1:18:15wrong the touch input on the old pros
1:18:17was much slower than 120 Hertz is that
1:18:21right yeah touch was sampled at I
1:18:24believe only 60 because touch I believe
1:18:26was sampled with the rest of the display
1:18:27only the pencil was sampled at the super
1:18:30high rate I think I know at least the
1:18:33pencil was but I think only the pencil
1:18:35was and then also the framerate of the
1:18:37display of the entire UI was 60 frames
1:18:39per second I think she's saying that
1:18:41touch was 120 okay so no matter it says
1:18:44in her tweet you know so it's the
1:18:45difference between input and output
1:18:46touch input was 120 pencil to 40 but
1:18:48output was only 60 so there you go the
1:18:51point we're driving at is the particular
1:18:52numbers don't actually matter that much
1:18:54it's just the point it's just that it's
1:18:55all better now
1:18:57so so serenity continues you know that
1:18:59was great info for predicting lines in
1:19:01touch but it couldn't render the input
1:19:03at the rate it was being given with
1:19:05these new pros the screen can now output
1:19:07at 120 Hertz so touches at par pencil
1:19:11input is closer to par less prediction
1:19:13and more accuracy and so there's a
1:19:16series of tweets that we'll put in the
1:19:18show notes talking about all this and
1:19:21one of them if I open these up I believe
1:19:24she has a video do we have that here the
1:19:26video of her showing the difference
1:19:30between the two different devices the
1:19:34old iPad pro and the new one if we don't
1:19:35have that in the show notes and I'll try
1:19:37to dig it up but uh it's just it's it's
1:19:39in some rates damned impressive it
1:19:41really really is it's super duper
1:19:43impressive yeah this is the kind of
1:19:45thing that I I wish I used the pencil
1:19:48more I wish I had that kind of
1:19:49sensibility and habit I don't but I wish
1:19:52I did because seeing serenity do stuff
1:19:55with it in person everybody see like wow
1:19:57it's like I mean first of all I guess
1:19:59she's really good that's but you know
1:20:01it's typically it's a
1:20:02you know the talent of the person is way
1:20:04more important than the tools and most
1:20:05of these things but just has a nerd
1:20:07looking at the tools wow they're
1:20:09impressive wickets I could not believe
1:20:12the latency and and just the the
1:20:15smoothness of it it it is incredible and
1:20:19if you are a heavy pencil user I highly
1:20:24suggest you consider upgrading your iPad
1:20:27because it is it is remarkably different
1:20:31like I was able to see it side-by-side
1:20:32and and it really is a a big difference
1:20:36don't tell my wife because then I have
1:20:38to buy other iPad so yeah this the
1:20:40sample-rate thing like it may seem weird
1:20:42to people that both the previous and the
1:20:44new iPads are sampling at a faster rate
1:20:48than the screen could display because
1:20:50it's true both of them because the you
1:20:51know the pencils are 240 and now the
1:20:53screen is only 120 and back then the
1:20:55pencil was 240 the screen is only 60
1:20:56what good what good is it to sample if
1:20:59your output is only a fraction of that
1:21:01frame rate and as certainty points out
1:21:03it's about knowing where the implement
1:21:06whether it be your finger or the pencil
1:21:07is so you can make predictions about the
1:21:10line it's kind of like client-side
1:21:11prediction and first-person shooters and
1:21:13that you want it to feel like there's
1:21:15less latency than there is and so as the
1:21:18pencil list is gliding along even though
1:21:20you don't get to display this frame and
1:21:22you don't get to display this frame but
1:21:24you're sampling it fast enough that you
1:21:25know okay now I know where it is and
1:21:27even time to render this frame and so it
1:21:30reduces the perceived latency and
1:21:32surroundings number earth were twenty
1:21:34milliseconds versus fifty so the old
1:21:36pencil was 50 milliseconds the new one
1:21:37is 20 and the pencils being sampled at
1:21:40exactly the same rate 240 Hertz on both
1:21:42the old and the new the difference is
1:21:44all about the display can now refresh
1:21:47more frequently and once again referring
1:21:49to that I was at the Microsoft video up
1:21:51with their little test demo device where
1:21:53they can scale the latency from like a
1:21:55hundred to ten to one all right so this
1:21:58have the latency less than you know so
1:21:59it was it got cut and cut in half even
1:22:02more more than half how close are we to
1:22:06an actual pencil which is zero
1:22:09milliseconds latency in the demo video
1:22:13we'll put a link in the show notes 10
1:22:15mil
1:22:15Ekans still feels better than then
1:22:20obviously better than 100 and probably
1:22:22better than 20 one millisecond looks a
1:22:26lot better than 10 so if you want to say
1:22:27like how close are we for this being
1:22:29just like real pencil we're getting
1:22:31close but we're still in order of
1:22:33magnitude off we're still you know 20
1:22:35versus one so hold on tight for I guess
1:22:38you know five years from now we can get
1:22:41it down from 20 milliseconds to five or
1:22:43something and we'll start to be in the
1:22:44ballpark and then things start to get
1:22:46really interesting also one more reason
1:22:48why you want to sample the pencil at a
1:22:51faster rate than just the display
1:22:52possibly is that if you're making if
1:22:56you're drawing very very like big lines
1:22:59quickly so like you're moving there's a
1:23:01lot of motion happening if you're only
1:23:03sampling it at 60 Hertz you might or
1:23:06even hundred twenty Hertz like if you're
1:23:09drawing really fast big squiggly lines
1:23:11the the number of points that you're
1:23:14capturing might be further apart than
1:23:17the pixels and so you have to then if
1:23:19you're drawing a line like that from the
1:23:21software side you just have to
1:23:22interpolate you have to write well it
1:23:24went from this dot to this dot and we'll
1:23:25assume it's going to be a smooth curve
1:23:27between those two dots and the higher
1:23:30sampling rate is the less interpolation
1:23:32you have to do and the more the more
1:23:34you're actually capturing what the
1:23:36movement was that the artist was doing
1:23:39if they're making a really big fast
1:23:40stroke yeah and it take time to render
1:23:43frames to you so you always have to pick
1:23:44like okay tell me where all the inputs
1:23:46are because I'm going to start doing the
1:23:48work to draw the screen and then it says
1:23:50okay I got all your inputs and that
1:23:52input if it was exactly the same frame
1:23:54rate as a screen you might fall on a
1:23:55boundary where like oh I would have
1:23:57liked to wait three more milliseconds
1:23:59and get the next input and that would
1:24:01you know that would be a better
1:24:03prediction but it turns out there you
1:24:04know they weren't lined up in the credit
1:24:06video games have a lot of problems with
1:24:07this like in terms of the game engine
1:24:08trying to get its work done at just the
1:24:11right time to give the rest of the
1:24:12system time to render out that frame you
1:24:14don't want big gaps and so this is also
1:24:16inviting the ARV are things where they
1:24:18put up a big like sort of a like a Gantt
1:24:21chart and Microsoft Project of like all
1:24:22the different things that are happening
1:24:23in a system and you don't want to have
1:24:25big gaps that you want everything to
1:24:26finish just in time to get the optimal
1:24:28frame rate out
1:24:29but for the optimal experience and same
1:24:31thing with those uh was the Nvidia I
1:24:33think g-sync thing where they try to
1:24:35synchronize the the refresh of the
1:24:36monitor with the game engine again to
1:24:38reduce those gaps so you get a smoother
1:24:40tear free you know drawing at variable
1:24:44frame rates instead of having like a 60
1:24:46Hertz uh vertical blanking interval
1:24:47holdover from the CRT days doing away
1:24:50with that and trying to get the engine
1:24:51in the screen all in the same page
1:24:52having more samples also makes it more
1:24:55likely that you will be able to get a
1:24:58recent recent input close to the optimal
1:25:01window for handing off to the system to
1:25:03render and display and speaking of those
1:25:07sorts of things Joe LeBlanc writes in
1:25:09and saying people are preferring 120
1:25:12Hertz huh displays in blind tests and
1:25:14this appears to be gamer related in fact
1:25:17the the actual title vast majority of
1:25:19gamers prefer 120 Hertz monitors but uh
1:25:22people like them although I did use that
1:25:24it's somewhere I feel like I heard some
1:25:27people saying that it kind of made them
1:25:28a little queasy which is interesting I
1:25:30hypothetically may have seen one of
1:25:32these iPads very briefly and I liked it
1:25:34but I haven't used it for a long time
1:25:36mark oh you received yours today
1:25:38yesterday yesterday okay and what do you
1:25:41think it is ridiculously good it is so
1:25:46good not only is a faster than John's
1:25:48Mac Pro but it is it is just so good in
1:25:54so many ways so you know I'm not a heavy
1:25:58iPad user I use my iPad lightly but
1:26:01frequently like I sold my old one on
1:26:04Twitter about 24 hours before my new one
1:26:07was going to arrive so I went like 24
1:26:09hours without having an iPad and I
1:26:10actually really missed it and I never
1:26:12thought like two years ago I would never
1:26:14I never would have guessed that I would
1:26:15be in that state what really changed the
1:26:18iPad for me what what what you know and
1:26:20for everyone this is a different thing
1:26:22with what really made me get the iPad
1:26:24finally after years was the combination
1:26:27of having really great speakers and the
1:26:30smart Keyboard and basically leaving the
1:26:33smart Keyboard permanently attached
1:26:34combined with really great speaker so
1:26:36that it basically became my kitchen
1:26:38computer because it plays podcasts I can
1:26:41look stuff up if I have
1:26:42clicking off a recipe online I can look
1:26:44I can hold the recipe there I can browse
1:26:46the web lime waiting for coffee to roast
1:26:48and like it's just having it always in
1:26:51the keyboard made that difference for me
1:26:53and having the great speakers made it by
1:26:56far the best podcast player that you can
1:26:59have in a kitchen because you know
1:27:01overcast you know the experience of
1:27:03using overcast through something like
1:27:04Sonos or Alexa is not great and and
1:27:07using the app is always going to be
1:27:09better than that by a mile and the
1:27:10speakers are really good and the
1:27:12keyboard puts it up in a nice position
1:27:13for like standing up at counter use so
1:27:17it's just great I very much enjoy the
1:27:20iPad for that and then like you know if
1:27:21we're like watching some you know low
1:27:24mental effort TV at night I will bring
1:27:27the iPad over to the couch and it'll be
1:27:29my couch computer like what everyone
1:27:30else in the world has done for years so
1:27:32this is basically the me discovering
1:27:34what everyone else discovered with the
1:27:35iPad a long time ago so anyway I now
1:27:37like the iPad even though I'm not using
1:27:39it to get much work done
1:27:40I enjoy it as a you know basic
1:27:45entertainment device and a light work
1:27:47device anyway so the new hardware is
1:27:52ridiculously awesome you know in general
1:27:54away in general it you're not waiting
1:28:01for anything and I use I'm using the iOS
1:28:0311 beta first thing I do is all the beta
1:28:05because I was using it on my other one
1:28:07because this is clearly you know
1:28:09something that that that I want to be
1:28:11and I want to get used to it I want to
1:28:12learn it and the iOS 11 beta is buggy
1:28:16and slow and slaughters the battery
1:28:18nobody should be using the iOS 11 beta I
1:28:21am using it but nobody should it is it
1:28:25is a terrible idea to put this beta on
1:28:27any device that you rely on or care
1:28:29about at all
1:28:30it also apparently has been breaking
1:28:31some people's devices so again I really
1:28:33don't recommend that anybody install the
1:28:35beta but I did and so I can't really
1:28:39judge things like battery life and even
1:28:41performance like the beta is really slow
1:28:43and it was really slow on my old iPad
1:28:45but on the new one it's like
1:28:47substantially those will be faster
1:28:49because the hardware so much better if
1:28:51you do anything heavy on the iPad any if
1:28:55you if you were just a heavy iPad
1:28:56user I strongly suggest you check it out
1:28:59and this I should clarify also this is
1:29:00the 10.5 I do not get 12.9 because for
1:29:04my aforementioned use of basically like
1:29:06casual plus light work I think even the
1:29:1012.9 fans would agree the d 10.5 is the
1:29:12size to get for that the twelve point
1:29:14nine is the size to get if you are a
1:29:15heavy iPad productivity user and you
1:29:17want to full screen app side by side on
1:29:21a regular basis and you don't really
1:29:22need to carry it around a whole lot then
1:29:25the twelve point on is for you but
1:29:26that's not going to be most people most
1:29:28people detent the ten point five is the
1:29:29size to get and this is all everything
1:29:31I've just said is not even mentioning
1:29:33the 120 Hertz display but let me tell
1:29:37you when you see the 120 Hertz display
1:29:40it ruins everything else for you forever
1:29:43it is as big to a lot of people I think
1:29:49or will be as big 12 people as the
1:29:51retina transition was you know I'm glad
1:29:53you qualified that because had I
1:29:55hypothetically spent a little time with
1:29:58one of these last week I came into it
1:30:00the for my first impression was me
1:30:02then I saw it being used for a while and
1:30:05hypothetically I saw it being used for a
1:30:07while I was like actually this is pretty
1:30:09impressive and where I left it not
1:30:11having used one even hypothetically for
1:30:14more than a few minutes was this is
1:30:16important and it's a bigger deal than I
1:30:18initially thought
1:30:19but I a lot of people have been saying
1:30:21it's as big as retina perhaps I'll feel
1:30:23that way later but sitting here now
1:30:26after only brief usage it is certainly
1:30:28the most impressive thing that I've seen
1:30:31in a long time a la retina but I didn't
1:30:35think it was as big as retina but we'll
1:30:37see what I feel like in whatever I get
1:30:39my hands on one of these eventually one
1:30:41day or if the phone for example has them
1:30:43you know something like that
1:30:43it isn't as big as retina in in like the
1:30:47sense of like looking at it if you just
1:30:49look at a screen shot you know you don't
1:30:51see it it is basically the motion
1:30:53version of retina it's like that's
1:30:55interesting what I'm looking at it yeah
1:30:57any kind of motion any animation any
1:30:59touch input scrolling especially
1:31:01scrolling text like a lot like if you're
1:31:02reading a web page you notice that like
1:31:04because when you're scrolling the text
1:31:06blur is less so if you're reading while
1:31:08scrolling like it's it's a noticeable
1:31:10difference even just like moving page to
1:31:12page in springboard just like like
1:31:14that's the first thing I did when I got
1:31:15it before right right before I sold the
1:31:16beta was I just like swipe back and
1:31:19forth on springboard like between my two
1:31:21pigs of actions like whoa it's so smooth
1:31:23it really is it is a way bigger gain
1:31:30than I thought it would be you know III
1:31:32didn't think it would be that noticeable
1:31:34but it really is that noticeable and
1:31:37yeah I mean if I had to pick either only
1:31:40having retina or only having 120 Hertz I
1:31:43pick retina every time but we already
1:31:46have right now yeah right retinas a done
1:31:47deal now like it well tell it to the
1:31:49MacBook Air but for the most part
1:31:51because a done deal now and so now we
1:31:54now that we've all established that
1:31:56we've had that we can move on from that
1:31:57now Wow
1:31:59120 Hertz is that that level of
1:32:03advancement and it won't be as high for
1:32:05some people for me though I really think
1:32:08it is on that magnitude I think we
1:32:12comparison to retina is extremely apt
1:32:14because just like retina I guarantee you
1:32:17there are people who you will put this
1:32:20thing in front of who have no idea that
1:32:23is 120 Hertz will not be able to
1:32:25distinguish between the two and will not
1:32:27care about it like sure I've shown a lot
1:32:29of people Retina screens I like don't
1:32:31you see how different these screens are
1:32:33these pixels are the size of boulders
1:32:34and you can't even see them here they'd
1:32:35be like huh like the thing again in the
1:32:38TV parlance saying that they are much
1:32:40more likely no to say that screens
1:32:42brighter they they don't like some
1:32:44people just don't care about retina they
1:32:46don't see it you pointed out to him look
1:32:47at the text look at the serif see how
1:32:48they like oh yeah I don't care now it
1:32:51could be of those same people who don't
1:32:52care get used to it and can't go back to
1:32:55the other thing but it could be that
1:32:56they're just always like well that's not
1:32:58not important to me or my vision is not
1:33:00acute enough for me to be able to know
1:33:01such differences 120 Hertz is just like
1:33:03that some people will be like but how
1:33:06can you not it's just like what Marco
1:33:07said before about drawing with the
1:33:09pencil when you scroll really fast if
1:33:11you've only got 60 frames per second it
1:33:13could be that the line that was
1:33:14previously in the middle of the screen
1:33:16in the next frame is at the top of the
1:33:18screen so your device shows two frames
1:33:20line in the middle and line at the top
1:33:22and you get to see nope
1:33:23in between despite the fact that if you
1:33:26were taking a piece of paper and moving
1:33:28it by that same speed you would see more
1:33:29positions in between right and so 120
1:33:32Hertz gives you more frames in between
1:33:34makes it appear smoother and I'll bet
1:33:37they're people you show that to you know
1:33:38look at the slow motion look looks the
1:33:40Contra celerity be like oh alright I
1:33:42guess that's nice oh but so I think a
1:33:45retina is perfectly app it's a thing
1:33:46that's going to mean so much to certain
1:33:48geeks and other people will absolutely
1:33:49take for granted and I think that
1:33:52everyone will just become accustomed to
1:33:53so that if you fast forward many years
1:33:55like say we get the screen up to 240 and
1:33:58you pull out it's too bad we never had a
1:34:0030 frames per second because iOS is
1:34:01always aiming for 60 wasn't it 60 from
1:34:03the beginning and earlier that's right
1:34:04like if we had 30 and compared that to a
1:34:08240 people like oh how did you ever use
1:34:10this 13 for a second thing it's so
1:34:12terrible I think it's back to this this
1:34:14gamer story here I mentioned in the last
1:34:16show like gamers always obsessing about
1:34:18framerate and the question was like what
1:34:20is the point of diminishing returns like
1:34:22should you get a system that can play
1:34:23this game you know at 500 frames per
1:34:27second or once you pass 60 or so like
1:34:31does it not matter anymore and that's
1:34:32what gamers are is obsessed with and
1:34:33this this test of under 20 Hertz
1:34:35monitors I was trying to figure out like
1:34:38asking these gamers who are presumably
1:34:39very sensitive to frame rates and their
1:34:41first-person shooters and everything one
1:34:42of the questions was can you even tell
1:34:44like they put them in front of a screen
1:34:45I'm not going to tell you if this is one
1:34:46of the 2,100 Hertz one of the 60 Hertz
1:34:48one can you even tell if the screen
1:34:51you're in front of is 120 or 60 and most
1:34:53of them could not all of them though but
1:34:55most of them is like 88% could say oh
1:34:57yeah I've correctly identified the
1:34:58screen that I'm using this is a 120 and
1:35:00this is a 60 so the fact that there even
1:35:01some gamers who couldn't tell shows and
1:35:04by the way this was a game obviously
1:35:05this that with a frame rate that exceeds
1:35:0660 so they would you know it would look
1:35:08different Thanks sometimes it's not even
1:35:10that easy to tell any other question for
1:35:11the gamers perspective is like did I do
1:35:13better on the screen with the higher
1:35:15framerate and the methodology this
1:35:17article is not conclusive because there
1:35:19can you know have a few people playing
1:35:21something whatever that's what they want
1:35:22to know is like does this make me a
1:35:23better player or not and that probably
1:35:25all comes down with what it's used to
1:35:26but for things like drawing with the
1:35:28pencil it's pretty clear that you know
1:35:30if you're drawing with something in the
1:35:32line you're tracing lags behind your
1:35:34cursor by twice as much on one device
1:35:36another you're going to like the other
1:35:37one better but the fact that most people
1:35:41can tell shows that maybe the point of
1:35:44diminishing returns first-person
1:35:45shooters maybe hovering somewhere past
1:35:4760 or whatever but that people can can
1:35:51see the difference especially with very
1:35:53fast motions pretty easily if you're
1:35:56looking for if you know what to look for
1:35:57you have the two devices there and you
1:35:58move your finger arm you can totally see
1:36:00the difference which makes you think
1:36:01that you know where where is the limit
1:36:03on this for seeing the difference in
1:36:06terms of human visual acuity is would
1:36:09240 would we be able to tell adrims
1:36:11between 240 and 120 and look at it and
1:36:13go oh wow I can really see that 120
1:36:15looks like it's all stuttery and this
1:36:16one is smooth as butter right or is
1:36:19there a point after which you know we
1:36:21can't tell anymore and you'd put the two
1:36:22devices side-by-side and you scroll them
1:36:24as much as you want any but I can't tell
1:36:26is this one 5000 every second in this
1:36:28one is 2,000 I can't tell anymore so we
1:36:30may be approaching that I'm not sure
1:36:32someone should write in about the human
1:36:34visual system and tell us at what point
1:36:35will be side by side scrolling test stop
1:36:37working on humans and that's where Apple
1:36:39can stop their work but in the meantime
1:36:41they they should keep going yeah I mean
1:36:43I would even go further to say like this
1:36:45is so impressive that first of all I
1:36:48think the reason why maybe some people
1:36:51this makes them feel weird and there
1:36:53actually is an accessibility option to
1:36:55to restrict to cap the framerate at 60
1:36:57Hertz which is probably for this reason
1:36:59in addition to looking really cool it's
1:37:02jarring how different looks the first
1:37:04time you see it and the first time you
1:37:06you you touch it and move and you see an
1:37:08animation it actually is like jarring
1:37:12and it's kind of like the first time you
1:37:14see a like high frame rate movie and it
1:37:17like the soap opera effect on TVs the
1:37:19charm of so much like it's kind of like
1:37:22that but but like you know the the
1:37:24computer interaction version that we're
1:37:25like you're looking at you're like oh
1:37:26that's this is like surreal in some way
1:37:30it's it's a very jarring thing to see
1:37:32but I would so I will go as far as to
1:37:34say I like it so much it makes such a
1:37:36big difference that between the iMac pro
1:37:40and the Mac Pro if one of them somehow
1:37:44supports this on its display but the
1:37:46other one doesn't this might be enough
1:37:48to evince me too
1:37:50to make a decision one way or the other
1:37:51on that like in the same way that when
1:37:53the 5k iMac came out I gave up my
1:37:57cylinder Mac Pro because I wanted
1:37:58desktop Retina so badly and that was the
1:38:00only way to get it at that time at that
1:38:02size this this is that big of a deal to
1:38:05me now that I've seen it now that I
1:38:07played with it like now if the iMac pro
1:38:10se say the iMac Pro can do it like maybe
1:38:14the built-in screen can use the
1:38:16advantages of an internal bus and
1:38:18everything say the CDI Mac Pro can do
1:38:20120 Hertz but the Mac Pro over some
1:38:23cables some separate display can't I'll
1:38:26get the mi Pro for that reason alone
1:38:27that's how good that's how good this is
1:38:30I might consider that as well although
1:38:32the the Mac Pro is further hindered by
1:38:35the potential rumors of 8k because
1:38:37member we were just talking about boy
1:38:38when will we be able to do 5k at 60
1:38:40frames per second over a cable it's like
1:38:42surprise 8 km 120 hearts where's your
1:38:44God now yeah like that's a lot of damn
1:38:47pixels coming over it's a there's almost
1:38:49no hope and that's why Marcos is right
1:38:51to like if you're gonna pin your hopes
1:38:52on anything pinch on the thing where
1:38:54they have everything of the box they can
1:38:55hide the two ugly cables and the timing
1:38:57chip and all that other stuff like they
1:38:59could conceivably pull it off but even
1:39:00then like the GPU starts to weep at a
1:39:03certain point like start doing the math
1:39:05that is a lot of pixels per second yeah
1:39:09it's it is a difficult challenge and
1:39:11honestly I would imagine that it is more
1:39:14perceptible on a device that you're
1:39:16constantly touching and swiping maybe if
1:39:18you have a you know the Apple touch
1:39:20Mouse and you're swiping for scrolling
1:39:21it would start to show up but I do
1:39:23boy that's that's that I know that's
1:39:25that's a difficult I have to Apple touch
1:39:28pointing devices one on each out of my
1:39:29keyboard yeah I mean and you're not
1:39:31drawing on your Mac screen with a pencil
1:39:32I suppose no you can use your iPad as a
1:39:37120 Hertz display that you can draw on
1:39:40when you connect to your Mac with that
1:39:41didn't get announced the WZ by the way
1:39:43but it's still out there if that feature
1:39:45ever shapes yeah yeah but it no I mean
1:39:48like you know one thing you doing on
1:39:50desktop a lot is scroll you know like
1:39:52you're scrolling webpages all the time
1:39:55on desktop so like you just page down
1:39:57and page up and have it set to jump
1:39:58smooth scrolling is for suckers instance
1:40:00growing so old
1:40:02I think they remove that feature I had
1:40:05that the secret prep set for a long time
1:40:06I think it's gone now though like I
1:40:07think you have no choice you get smooth
1:40:09swirling whether you like it or not yeah
1:40:10I think when they went when they went
1:40:11fully GPU rendered I think that happened
1:40:13so now I'll use another reason to use
1:40:15Chrome right guys oh god thanks for our
1:40:20three sponsors this week betterment endo
1:40:22Chino and mail route and we'll see you
1:40:24next week
1:40:27now the show is over
1:40:29they didn't even mean to begin cuz it
1:40:33was accidental oh it was accidental John
1:40:38didn't do any research Marco and Casey
1:40:41wouldn't let him cuz it was accidental
1:40:45it was accidental and you can find the
1:40:50show notes at a TPM and if you're into
1:40:55Twitter you can follow them at CAS pyl
1:41:01ISS so that's Casey list ma accion krm
1:41:07aunty Marco Arment li r AC USA Syracuse
1:41:24so
1:41:27we need to discuss a few things and the
1:41:32last of the three things we need to
1:41:33discuss the other two should be quick is
1:41:35the food at WWE this is your teaser
1:41:38everyone that it is coming it is coming
1:41:40this episode um so I can't wait because
1:41:42I haven't had it yet because I wasn't I
1:41:43didn't have a ticket I can't wait to
1:41:45hear about it mm-hmm before though we
1:41:47need to talk about a couple of different
1:41:49things number one I stole something from
1:41:52dub dub I'm in bidding it publicly
1:41:55except not really is it everybody's
1:41:58heart Casey no it is not everybody's
1:42:00heart that is very kind of you to even
1:42:02make that joke now I actually didn't
1:42:04really steal anything this is probably
1:42:06not interesting to anyone but me but I
1:42:08thought it was funny and a nice story
1:42:09about how Apple nerds are actually nice
1:42:11people so I forget what day it was I
1:42:14want to say it was Wednesday it doesn't
1:42:16really matter but one of the days toward
1:42:17the end of the week I went i sat down
1:42:20with my old and busted 2015 circa 2015
1:42:24MacBook Pro before touch bar you know
1:42:27before anything fancy and cool and I had
1:42:31wanted to use Ethernet and so as as with
1:42:33prior years I plugged in my Thunderbolt
1:42:37Ethernet connector plugged in one of the
1:42:39Ethernet ports in let me back up a
1:42:41half-step so basically they have areas
1:42:43in in the conference center where
1:42:45they'll have Ethernet ports they'll have
1:42:48power strips and and in years past they
1:42:51used to actually provide Thunderbolt 2
1:42:52Ethernet connections that that that you
1:42:55could use you don't have to bring your
1:42:57own but because the new hotness is USBC
1:42:59that's what they had this year instead
1:43:00so but they had just plain old ethernet
1:43:04cables that you could plug into a
1:43:06connector that you provide which is what
1:43:08I did so I sit down i plug in my you
1:43:11know ethernet adapter I download a bunch
1:43:13of videos I leave and I completely
1:43:16forget my Ethernet adapter crap I go
1:43:20back almost exactly 24 hours later you
1:43:23know it was still there my Ethernet
1:43:26adapter I was overjoyed because that's
1:43:28like a $30.00 damn adapter and no nerds
1:43:32so none of these nerds was a big enough
1:43:34jerk or noticed to take it I was so
1:43:36excited but then that then you have
1:43:39that awkward social moment where there's
1:43:41a bunch of people around you and you sit
1:43:44down and you plug in and then you take
1:43:47the adapter and walk off and I can only
1:43:49imagine what the people around me
1:43:51thought just hand on heart it was the
1:43:53exact same spot I was the day before I
1:43:55am 99% sure it was the same adapter but
1:43:58here it is I like sit down without an
1:44:00adapter and walk away with an adapter
1:44:02and I'm sure the people around me were
1:44:04like what just happened but uh but
1:44:09anyway so yeah so when I say I stole
1:44:11something from dub dub really I stole
1:44:12something that I had left at dub dub
1:44:13also tangential don't I don't know if
1:44:15you've ever talked about this on the
1:44:17show and you two obviously know the
1:44:19answer but for the listeners if you have
1:44:22one of these Ethernet to whatever
1:44:25adapters so maybe Ethernet to USB C
1:44:27Ethernet to Thunderbolt how do you
1:44:30ensure that the ones that Casey doesn't
1:44:32leave behind
1:44:33don't walk away what do you do because
1:44:35Apple came up with a completely genius
1:44:39solution to this problem
1:44:41so obviously you - no but the answer is
1:44:45take a what do you call that tie the zip
1:44:48ties tie
1:44:49thank you a zip tie take a zip tie and
1:44:52if you imagine an Ethernet cable the way
1:44:55they generally work is they have like
1:44:57the part with all the eight or whatever
1:44:59it is wires in it and then like a little
1:45:00tabby that pops up and in order to pull
1:45:04the ethernet cord out of the device it's
1:45:06plugged into you have to push the tabby
1:45:08down so what they do is they take the
1:45:10zip tie and tie it super tight around
1:45:12the Ethernet cable under the tabby thing
1:45:15so the only way to get this out is to
1:45:18push down on the tabby thing but you
1:45:19can't because the zip tie is there how
1:45:21frickin clever is that it's been the
1:45:23same way for years but I don't think
1:45:24we've ever had a in impetus to talk
1:45:25about it super clever such a low-tech
1:45:28but great solution to the problem which
1:45:30I thought was really funny so yep that
1:45:33was me stealing something from dub dub
1:45:34exception tell them you're using the
1:45:36Apple app that makes it look like you're
1:45:37stealing but you totally paid using easy
1:45:40just wait for a few seconds and then
1:45:42make it yeah just walk away surely no
1:45:44one thought that works with everything
1:45:46an apple
1:45:47the phone doesn't even need to be on
1:45:49doesn't even need to have a battery or
1:45:51work when it doesn't walk out with him
1:45:52oh my god please don't do that
1:45:54oh don't do that okay so uh we should
1:45:57also talk about what Marco did for the
1:45:59entire week and uh as far as I can tell
1:46:02from every time I saw you you just drank
1:46:05coffee and sat outside that's basically
1:46:08it it was glorious it was funny so uh so
1:46:13at at San Jose there was a coffee shop
1:46:16called
1:46:17social policy which was either genuinely
1:46:20or ironically called Sopo I don't know
1:46:22if that was that was intentional or not
1:46:24I mean their sign said SOPA on it so I
1:46:26guess it's embraced but anyways it was a
1:46:29from what I could tell a nice coffee
1:46:30shop like actually I guess I should say
1:46:32more of like a cafe because they had a
1:46:33little bit of food and you talked about
1:46:35this on was it run loop is that right
1:46:37which show were you on the yeah run loop
1:46:39and also under the radar but I don't
1:46:40think it's out yet but yeah so well I'll
1:46:42put a link to in the show notes to run
1:46:44loop but um but yeah so Marco basically
1:46:46each morning and you know jump in when
1:46:48you're ready but I'm just telling you my
1:46:49observation it would roll out of bed
1:46:52when it suited him and then shuffle on
1:46:55down to the social policy which was like
1:46:56across the street from the Fairmont
1:46:57Hotel across the street from the
1:46:594-points hotel very very close to the
1:47:02conference center so you would roll into
1:47:04social policy and because California
1:47:05doesn't have weather you could sit
1:47:06outside and it seemed like no matter
1:47:09when I passed by social policy you were
1:47:13there to your credit often with
1:47:15different people but you were a fixture
1:47:17the entire week so it was really you
1:47:20just holding court in social policy if
1:47:23anyone wanted a conference with the king
1:47:25they just had to show up at social
1:47:26policy and that's where he would be
1:47:27that's basically true and there was even
1:47:29there was one day where I went there for
1:47:31breakfast I tried to leave and then ran
1:47:36to a bunch of our friends who were
1:47:37heading there and went right back there
1:47:41with them then I had a lunch meeting
1:47:42there like 40 minutes later so I just
1:47:45stayed I hung out with our friends and
1:47:47then change tables for the lunch meeting
1:47:49they then then had the lunch meeting
1:47:52then after that like there was some
1:47:53other reason why I had to be there like
1:47:55it was basically spent a whole day there
1:47:57but it was ya know it's a great place I
1:47:59mean this is one of the things in
1:48:00general
1:48:01you know that I like about having it in
1:48:03San Jose that that we have never had
1:48:05really in San Francisco is that there
1:48:10there are these clear like common places
1:48:13because it's it's a much smaller area
1:48:16that most people are really walking
1:48:18between like the hotels that most people
1:48:20are staying in we're very very close to
1:48:23the conference center right there and
1:48:24there were more affordable hotels close
1:48:26to his conference center than there are
1:48:27on San Francisco and so everyone was in
1:48:31not everybody like more people were in a
1:48:34smaller area they were it seems like San
1:48:37Jose is a much quieter town most of the
1:48:39time we know outside of conferences at
1:48:41least in this part of the town is so
1:48:43like they were there was there were very
1:48:45few other people walking around who
1:48:48weren't conference attendees or adjacent
1:48:50people like me and so it was it was a
1:48:54really really good hangout area in
1:48:57general there were a handful of coffee
1:48:59shops a handful of bars handful of
1:49:02restaurants that are all right around
1:49:03there and you could just hang out at one
1:49:06of them and you would see tons of people
1:49:09that were conference attendees and if
1:49:12you know if you know a lot of people
1:49:13there like like we do you'd see a lot of
1:49:15your friends and so it was a really
1:49:17really great scenario and Sara never had
1:49:19that they were there was no place in San
1:49:21Francisco that you could sit and just
1:49:24run into people that easily and that
1:49:26quickly that was that nice and and that
1:49:29you would that you would learn as people
1:49:31that often it was it was great for that
1:49:34summarize Marcos review San Jose a great
1:49:38place not to attend WWDC honestly yes
1:49:41yes it it like I I don't know I don't
1:49:43know what to expect going into it this
1:49:44is my first time going without a ticket
1:49:46but Wow was it great and and and I
1:49:50should you know and to to clarify here I
1:49:53talked a little bit this on the radar
1:49:54which should come out about the same
1:49:56time as this to clarify one of the
1:50:00reasons I was able to do that is because
1:50:02I've been going for so many years with a
1:50:04ticket that I know a lot of people now
1:50:06so when you know a lot of people's is
1:50:08this is like that's why I'm for
1:50:09marketing like when you know a lot of
1:50:10people you can do that really easily
1:50:12it's harder if you don't know it's like
1:50:14if you don't know any
1:50:14I would not recommend going out there
1:50:17with no conferences to attend because I
1:50:20think you need something to anchor your
1:50:22day if you know most unless you know a
1:50:25lot of people there you have a lot of
1:50:26other things scheduled you need
1:50:28something to anchor your days so go you
1:50:30know get a ticket to a conference
1:50:31whether it's WTC or layers or all conf
1:50:34honestly it doesn't matter that much
1:50:36which one you pick you know pick
1:50:38whichever one appeals to you most and
1:50:39that you that you can get into and
1:50:40afford and everything else but if you
1:50:43are going out there mostly for social
1:50:45reasons and you already know some people
1:50:47out there that you can hang out with and
1:50:48stuff then going totally ticketless is
1:50:50pretty cool and I can recommend it
1:50:53because it's a very different experience
1:50:55in San Jose than it ever was in San
1:50:57Francisco I mean I can't count the
1:50:59number of breakfasts I had in San
1:51:02Francisco in that sad little bagel deli
1:51:04next to the park 55 just like as I was
1:51:07working out of the door like on the way
1:51:08out to try to make the morning session
1:51:10like I've had so many like sad
1:51:13breakfasts alone just like rushing to
1:51:15Moscone and that never happened in San
1:51:18Jose like I would say for breakfast and
1:51:20there would already be four people I
1:51:22know at the coffee shop I would have
1:51:24food and eight more people would show
1:51:26like it but it was just it was awesome
1:51:28it was a very very different experience
1:51:30so I really did appreciate that yeah you
1:51:32know I'm giving you a hard time but if
1:51:34it were me I'd probably be in the exact
1:51:36same boat and it was really nice to have
1:51:39a place that we could all gather that
1:51:41would appeal to everyone because I'm not
1:51:43a coffee drinker but you know they had
1:51:45other things to drink and they had food
1:51:47to eat and it was right by the two most
1:51:49popular hotels or at least amongst our
1:51:51you know kind of social circle and and
1:51:53yeah you would end up because often
1:51:56times should be eating outside you know
1:51:58you would be walking by maybe to go to
1:51:59your hotel via KHOU there's Marco I'll
1:52:01swing by and say hey and next you know
1:52:02it's three hours later so I'm giving you
1:52:04a hard time but but I I couldn't agree
1:52:07more with pretty much everything you
1:52:08just said pretty much the only thing I
1:52:10regret about not having a ticket this
1:52:12year is I didn't get one of those cool
1:52:14jackets they are pretty cool and the pin
1:52:17is mine so in the pins that's right now
1:52:19for the first time in I would say four
1:52:22years however long they've been doing
1:52:23those weird nylon track jackets they
1:52:25finally have great jackets like
1:52:28and look on eBay like should I just buy
1:52:29one Arnie Biggs I'm sure people are
1:52:31dumping them and sure enough the answer
1:52:32is yes people are dumping them but
1:52:34they're going for like a hundred and
1:52:35fifty dollars or more Wow okay I don't
1:52:38want one that badly suddenly I don't
1:52:41want mine if it's a large maybe let's
1:52:44talk yeah right but no they were they
1:52:47were nice jackets and yeah I don't think
1:52:49we did we talked about this last episode
1:52:51with the pins I don't recall
1:52:52I don't think so the pin yeah that other
1:52:54people have but we haven't okay so short
1:52:57short version is when you walked in and
1:52:59registered you would get a package of
1:53:01six pins and a country pin so you know a
1:53:05pin that shows like the US flag or maybe
1:53:07like Federico got the Italian flag etc
1:53:09and the six pins there they're differing
1:53:11reports as to how many of them were
1:53:13consistent how many were different it
1:53:15doesn't really matter the point is that
1:53:16not all six were the same amongst every
1:53:18single attendee so what ended up
1:53:21happening was you started like wheeling
1:53:23and dealing just like Disney style
1:53:24trying to find somebody who like what
1:53:27was it John that you traded with
1:53:29Federico you took a happy Mack and he
1:53:31took a metal logo is that right I had to
1:53:34sacrifice my metal pin which is one of
1:53:35the ones I liked but I had to do what it
1:53:37took to get a happy Mac see end up like
1:53:40trading with people and then at certain
1:53:41points throughout the week if you went
1:53:44to certain things or did certain things
1:53:46they would give you a pin so at some
1:53:50point I was hanging out downstairs maybe
1:53:51when I was leaving my dongle behind and
1:53:54I got a San Jose pin when you walked
1:53:57into the into the bash on Thursday
1:53:59afternoon you got like a you know metal
1:54:02not metal to the am but metal like you
1:54:05know pinky and forefinger up with WDC on
1:54:08it and I think if you went to one of the
1:54:10labs you got like a space invader thing
1:54:11if you went to another lab you got
1:54:13something else if it was it was
1:54:15something at Arak oh yeah
1:54:17and so if you're if you're curious what
1:54:19the pins are almost all of them if not
1:54:21all of them are in the WWDC app on the
1:54:25iphone and they're a sticker pack for
1:54:27messages which I also thought was kind
1:54:29of nets cute yeah so so
1:54:32I'm being told via Sam the geek and it's
1:54:35in the chat room that space invaders was
1:54:37the game's meet up and there were some
1:54:40other ones also elsewhere as well but
1:54:43anyways the the point is you would like
1:54:44kind of exchange these pins if you so
1:54:46desired throughout the course the week
1:54:47and you could kind of quote-unquote earn
1:54:50more as you did different things
1:54:53throughout the week when you got your
1:54:54wristband to go into the bash you got
1:54:57either command-z or one other kind of
1:55:00pan africa the other one was but anyways
1:55:02the it was I thought that was really
1:55:04clever at first I was like come on
1:55:05really but it ended up being really cute
1:55:07and really fun and and I am fully on
1:55:10board with them doing that again I put a
1:55:13sunglasses emoji and a thumbs up emoji
1:55:15on my laptop bag so I I'm a sunglasses
1:55:18guy given a thumbs up jelly in the chad
1:55:21jelly bean super said born to code was
1:55:23the other one when you got your
1:55:24wristband it to be honest it doesn't
1:55:26really matter but the point is these
1:55:27pins I thought really cool also if you
1:55:30happen to be selling on eBay with like a
1:55:32good set of pins they're going for over
1:55:34three hundred dollars then my were like
1:55:36I had no if you would have asked me
1:55:38before I did the search to predict how
1:55:41much they were going for I would guess
1:55:43maybe like you know fifty bucks and no
1:55:45they're coming for a lot you have all
1:55:47this receive a lot of pins that's Apple
1:55:50is late to the pin trading game I think
1:55:51maybe Disney started it but met several
1:55:53years ago the Penny Arcade Expo picked
1:55:55up on it
1:55:56xoxo would search going yeah go and
1:55:59search for how much a complete pin
1:56:00collection than any of those other
1:56:02conferences or venues goes for Apple has
1:56:05finally found another market where they
1:56:08can make a small number a finely crafted
1:56:10things sell for a huge amount of money
1:56:11but they're not selling them it's but
1:56:14that's why they're worth a huge amount
1:56:15of money well secondary market is it's
1:56:17like when people get their iPhones early
1:56:19and then they sell them immediately on
1:56:20eBay same thing only there will never be
1:56:23any more of these pins if you didn't get
1:56:25one it's too late and thanks again to
1:56:27our friend Sam the geek in the chat we
1:56:28have learned that if I want to buy the
1:56:30same jacket without the WTC logo on it
1:56:32it appears to be the Levi's it's called
1:56:35the trucker jacket and it's 70 bucks no
1:56:40puddling can show yeah so we actually
1:56:41might it's a really it looks really nice
1:56:43on everybody the only thing is I don't
1:56:45really know what I'm a medium
1:56:46large that's the only question so I'll
1:56:48have to see okay the time has come we
1:56:52need to talk about food and Marco I know
1:56:54that there's going to be this isn't
1:56:57going to be as exciting for you perhaps
1:56:58we have to talk about the food this is a
1:57:00so exciting for me you have no idea
1:57:03let's start with the most important
1:57:05thing there was Odwalla however there
1:57:11was no Mango Tango and it it was just
1:57:14basically the whole week was a long
1:57:16troll of Casey Liz there were trams I
1:57:19don't know what they're called it
1:57:20doesn't really matter but there are
1:57:21trams that ran actually right next to
1:57:23social policy one of the tram or many of
1:57:26the trams one of the designs on the tram
1:57:28there was a like billboard that took up
1:57:31the entire side of the tram was one of
1:57:33the situations are they like painted a
1:57:36advertisement on the side of the tram
1:57:38one of them was not wala advertisement
1:57:41and not only that but it was featuring
1:57:45Mango Tango we get into the show and
1:57:48actually I think people had seen some
1:57:50odd wallet coolers which is what we had
1:57:51seen in the past and they had sent me
1:57:54pictures on Twitter and I'm all excited
1:57:55with myself and I did not see one mango
1:57:58tango all week you guys the struggle is
1:58:01real but I was orange juice but there
1:58:04was a chalky um chocolate milk sort of
1:58:08thing there was what was the other one
1:58:11shows that aren't one was the decoy I
1:58:12almost rush you're the one to get my
1:58:14girl finally a mango tango pick when
1:58:15he's up for Casey but it was a decoy it
1:58:17was there was a decoy a mango in it
1:58:19right
1:58:20yeah it was a I think so I tweeted about
1:58:22at some point uh but yeah it was the
1:58:24entire week in terms of Odwalla was one
1:58:26long troll Casey list and now I know
1:58:28exactly how you felt several years ago
1:58:30Marko when you had the long troll of
1:58:32Mark Worman when they took away
1:58:34strawberry sea monster yep it was the
1:58:37worst you guys was the worst it was also
1:58:40funny talking to people because you know
1:58:41after I've been chatting about it both
1:58:43online and on the show people came up to
1:58:44me and one of the common things that
1:58:46everyone said to me was did you ever
1:58:48look at the nutrition information on a
1:58:50nod wallah
1:58:50and the story I told that much is true
1:58:52is that it wasn't until like my third or
1:58:55fourth dub-dub that I finally took a
1:58:56look at the nutrition information those
1:58:58things are like three or four hundred
1:58:59calories of
1:59:00or something like that whatever the
1:59:01number is it is intense there's no way
1:59:04like any kind of like juice that you're
1:59:06gonna be having like in general public
1:59:08drink it needs tons of sugar to taste
1:59:10good it's always gonna have tons of
1:59:13sugar yeah it was it's bad but anyway so
1:59:17the Odwalla that was the thing so the
1:59:19box launches in John at this point feel
1:59:21free to jump in whenever you're ready oh
1:59:22I'm sorry I shouldn't get to box lunches
1:59:23I should mention the breakfast the
1:59:26breakfast I think I only had one day
1:59:27because I was running around most the
1:59:29other day sometimes in social policy uh
1:59:31did they have the world's worst bagels
1:59:33John as per usual oh they did that's
1:59:35right we have to talk about the cream
1:59:36cheese yeah that was a downgrade I feel
1:59:38like I said downgrade on the breakfast
1:59:40starting off with a breakfast I always
1:59:41have the breakfast because they have
1:59:42they usually have a lot of junk food for
1:59:44breakfast is like well you're gonna get
1:59:46bad quality food make it junk food
1:59:48because drunk I'm gonna tell you one
1:59:49thing by the way the breakfast the
1:59:51social policy was amazing like they had
1:59:54like five or six different amazing
1:59:56options it's so good it was like yeah
1:59:56options it's so good it was like yeah
2:00:00I've ever had at a conference yeah if
2:00:03you the social quality breakfast this
2:00:04definitely looks better but the junk
2:00:06food they usually have in San Francisco
2:00:08the past few years is they have various
2:00:11kinds of danishes with some kind of
2:00:13fruit jelly again ninety percent sugar
2:00:15speaking of things that appear to be
2:00:18fruit but are actually just sugar donuts
2:00:21is it would normally have at San
2:00:23Francisco they also have bagels and that
2:00:26are they really is that whatever West
2:00:29Coast bagels with with with a bunch of
2:00:31different spreads that butter you can
2:00:32put on usually jelly and also whipped
2:00:34cream cheese alright so this year it
2:00:37seemed like the same stuff oh there are
2:00:38the danishes with a little fruit in the
2:00:39middle oh there are the quote-unquote
2:00:41bagels but the cream cheese and the
2:00:44spread situation was kind of grim they
2:00:46did have butter in little balls but I
2:00:47think it was unsalted butter which is
2:00:49kind of a technical foul there I don't
2:00:51like that cream cheese I did not have
2:00:55yeah they do not have a giant you know
2:00:59open vat of whipped cream cheese instead
2:01:01they had Casey proof packages
2:01:04Philadelphia looking for the toilet off
2:01:06your brand Casey it was okay case you
2:01:09from okay alright so now I have to use
2:01:11these a tiny man yeah like I have to
2:01:14fill in some color commentary so I don't
2:01:17know I don't think I'm going to be able
2:01:18to find an image of this but um but it
2:01:21Americans anyway I think this is a
2:01:23uniquely American thing so Kraft makes a
2:01:25cream cheese call it the brand is
2:01:27Philadelphia Cream Cheese and one of the
2:01:28ways it comes is rather than in a tub it
2:01:30comes as like a little brick if you've
2:01:33ever held or opened a brick of
2:01:35Philadelphia Cream Cheese it has this
2:01:37unique wrapper in it Marco do you know
2:01:39what I'm talking about it's like sort of
2:01:40aluminum foil but yeah it's it's a
2:01:43rectangle that's kind yet kind of oily
2:01:45but it's it's thick it's lined right and
2:01:49and then it has that weird Ridge across
2:01:52the top you gotta like try to peel apart
2:01:54exactly okay so with that mental model
2:01:56in mind and again if you're not from
2:01:58America or I've never seen this III
2:01:59genuinely I'm sorry but I don't know I
2:02:01I'm looking at Google search and Google
2:02:03Images I can't find an example so if we
2:02:05find one we'll put in the show notes but
2:02:06anyway imagine like a really thick
2:02:08aluminum foil and on the top of the
2:02:09brick it's kind of P it's pushed
2:02:12together the two ends of it are pushed
2:02:13to get
2:02:13you're supposed to peel them apart just
2:02:15like Marco said so what they had a dub
2:02:17dub was they had kind of like little
2:02:20mini versions of that so it was the same
2:02:23material but it was the size of like a
2:02:26catch mail a little bit bigger than a
2:02:27catch a packet but kind of around that
2:02:29size so you with me so far Marco yeah
2:02:30like similar material much much much
2:02:33smaller so I sit down embarrassingly
2:02:36right at the edge of that outdoor
2:02:39seating area so anyone can walk by and
2:02:41see me and I try to open and I actually
2:02:45got two of these cream cheeses because
2:02:47I'm a man that likes my cream cheese and
2:02:48so I didn't think one would be enough I
2:02:50get two of them you've never sounded
2:02:51more New York than you just have right
2:02:53then thank you so I try to open it on
2:02:56the side because it says open here and
2:02:58it points to the side and I noticed that
2:03:00you know at first I try to do the tear
2:03:02thing like tear off the side because you
2:03:04know you would expect like a perforation
2:03:05or something like that so I go to tear
2:03:07off the side I really shouldn't be
2:03:09telling the story publicly but it's too
2:03:10funny not to I go to tear off the side
2:03:12and that doesn't work and then I
2:03:14realized wait a second
2:03:15this looks a lot like the top of the
2:03:17brick of cream cheese I know what I have
2:03:20to do I have to pull it apart no no I
2:03:23kid you not I spent five minutes across
2:03:25two different creams Jesus trying to
2:03:27pull this damn thing apart I've never
2:03:29felt dumber in my life but it's the
2:03:30truth I could not figure it out so I
2:03:32ended up having the world's worst bagel
2:03:33plane because I just couldn't figure it
2:03:35out I didn't have like seven hours to
2:03:37work on this you just gave up that's the
2:03:39best part of the story is that that you
2:03:41were defeated that it wasn't like it was
2:03:42really hard to get it out or you made a
2:03:44big mess when you opened it up you were
2:03:46defeated you you uh surrendered to the
2:03:49cream cheese to of I did like you had a
2:03:52second run you like okay let me just put
2:03:53this down it's all hot and like slippery
2:03:55now for my finger Reese let me get a
2:03:56second fresh one let me take a new
2:03:58approach nope did it Owen - you were
2:04:00Owen - again that's true cream I wish I
2:04:02could I wish I could tell you I was
2:04:04making this up just for listeners
2:04:05enjoyment I swear to god this is exactly
2:04:07what I feel like you should have at
2:04:08least resorted to you're sort of like
2:04:10animalistic nature and just torn the
2:04:13thing open with your teeth to just be
2:04:14like you know what you're not gonna beat
2:04:16me packet of cream cheese it's true I
2:04:19tried with my teeth couldn't get it so I
2:04:20am I am i I I can laugh about it because
2:04:23it is pretty damn funny but it is also
2:04:25super and let me clear these containers
2:04:27not hard open after he said that the
2:04:28next day I had to get a package I didn't
2:04:30even see the package first time I I
2:04:32didn't even bother getting a Bao's I'm
2:04:34like oh there's no cream cheese what the
2:04:35hell am I gonna do with that bagel
2:04:36I had already discovered the DIA
2:04:37exercise but ever dissever the the the
2:04:40butter was in salt anyway I took one of
2:04:42those packets it has little things open
2:04:44here I tore it opened it was like like
2:04:46yeah it was with opposable I can open
2:04:48these but not lies John siracusa lies I
2:04:51opened the first jar - thank you - he
2:04:55did send me a text
2:04:56and basically said you idiot look at
2:04:59what I was able to do oh my god it's so
2:05:03funny so by getting back to the
2:05:04breakfast like the lack of cream cheese
2:05:06for the bagels was good it seemed to be
2:05:08less variety of stuff the croissants
2:05:10were ok but sometimes the head weird
2:05:11almonds on top of them unsalted butter
2:05:12no good Dana just seemed about the same
2:05:15maybe less variety like usually in the
2:05:17old thing there would be like all five
2:05:19flavors of danishes and there was no
2:05:21doughnuts no doughnuts at all not the
2:05:22doughnuts were great at San Francisco
2:05:23but some doughnuts are better than no
2:05:25doughnuts
2:05:28alright this is so I know Howard another
2:05:31thing that I regret about not having a
2:05:33ticket to the conference I regret
2:05:34watching me for watching the two of you
2:05:37react and in experience this food uh
2:05:40it's so true ok so let's talk about the
2:05:42lunches so we had heard room rumblings
2:05:44of maybe there were executive box
2:05:46lunches maybe they were just box lunches
2:05:48and um and so on keynote day we were
2:05:53eventually shuffled outside if I'm not
2:05:55mistaken and they were they were
2:05:57distributing lunches so immediate when
2:05:59they offer diet coke I believe we talked
2:06:01on the legendary dub-dub food episode a
2:06:04few episodes back that they had either
2:06:06the world's worst lemonade or the
2:06:08world's worst iced tea and those used to
2:06:10be here to launch selections and if you
2:06:12were there early enough there was
2:06:13usually a single Odwalla fridge that
2:06:16would get raided in seconds so you had
2:06:18to be there early but those were your
2:06:20options now this time they actually
2:06:24offered Diet Coke which is the nectar of
2:06:26the Gods don't listen to the other two
2:06:27guys don't listen to the other two guys
2:06:29it's true wait so I was already incited
2:06:32were the only three options like country
2:06:34time lemonade crap iced tea and Diet
2:06:36Coke was there more dot they didn't have
2:06:38that iced tea at all right
2:06:40and see it I don't think I saw the iced
2:06:42tea or the or the lab understand that
2:06:44regular coke right I don't know I'd
2:06:46never got a soda when I was there but uh
2:06:48really you don't say so I had my diet
2:06:50coke in the first day what I had was
2:06:53actually a Caesar salad with some sort
2:06:55of season two shrimp on it you had
2:06:58shrimp at a conference box Long's that's
2:07:00a--that's a risky move man I have to say
2:07:03it actually tasted quite good I was very
2:07:05impressed well so they won but part of
2:07:08the rumor is before you get to date to
2:07:09part of the rumor is about San Jose I
2:07:11was like oh there's going to be a
2:07:12different caterer it'll be totally
2:07:13different munch some people send this
2:07:14like pictures of lunches then the same
2:07:17Convention Center look very different
2:07:18but whatever powerful force is behind
2:07:22WWDC lunch presentation like big plastic
2:07:26container split into three parts
2:07:28whatever it was basically the same
2:07:31container that you know and love clear
2:07:34boxes three little you know hospital
2:07:37tray sections one for your main course
2:07:40one for your side dish one for your
2:07:41dessert that was still in effect so when
2:07:45I saw those things all rolled out like
2:07:47oh well these lunches are not going to
2:07:48be radically different than the old ones
2:07:51and sure enough they weren't regularly
2:07:53different and for the first day lunch I
2:07:55think what I had was I know some kind of
2:07:58sandwich
2:07:59so a reasonable default choice and I was
2:08:03mostly impressed with how like maybe
2:08:06they heard our last episode where we
2:08:07talked about this about the mystery
2:08:09sizes the mistery side dishes that are
2:08:12just unidentifiable and the desserts
2:08:14that are weird tis like style side dish
2:08:16yeah the side dish was identifiable for
2:08:18what it was but I think was like a
2:08:19macaroni salad but it was not weird and
2:08:22had like unknown vegetable matter in it
2:08:24and tasted different than it looked
2:08:26it wasn't good mind you like the pasta
2:08:29or whatever in the pasta salad was like
2:08:30mush right it was bad but when you
2:08:32looked at it you say I know how that's
2:08:34going to taste and you put in your mouth
2:08:35like and regretfully you are correct you
2:08:37know and the dessert I think on the
2:08:40first day was a cookie and like hey and
2:08:43it wasn't like a cookie that was like
2:08:44secretly something different it was a
2:08:46straight up whatever was chunks of
2:08:48cookie or oatmeal cookie or whatever and
2:08:49again wasn't a good cookie but it tasted
2:08:51like a cookie so I applaud
2:08:54for making those two sections of the
2:08:56container reflect their appearance in in
2:09:00a sane way and the sandwich so this is
2:09:04day one to sandwich I'm like this is not
2:09:06a good sandwich particularly the bread
2:09:08which I can most terribly described as a
2:09:10dark-colored hotdog bun like this is not
2:09:14this is not good bread but whatever is
2:09:17that once okay see you can go on to date
2:09:19two did you get food poisoning from the
2:09:21shrimp no no I did not my knowledge
2:09:23anyway did you get to take one of the
2:09:25packages that was outside in the Sun
2:09:27yeah but I was like one of the first
2:09:29people out there so I mean it was still
2:09:30cold like I'm not too worried about it
2:09:32all right things did take a turn on day
2:09:35two however on day two I think I went
2:09:38back outside I don't recall for sure all
2:09:39of that unit is why the day well it it
2:09:43this is the only other significant story
2:09:44and then my stories are basically done
2:09:46but on day two I went I grabbed my lunch
2:09:50and the I forget what the options were
2:09:52but one of the options were a BLT a or a
2:09:55blatte or whatever Californians call it
2:09:57so bacon lettuce tomato and avocado
2:09:59because hashtag California and it was in
2:10:02a rap because hashtag California it was
2:10:05tasty however I don't recall ever having
2:10:09seen any avocado anywhere inside of that
2:10:12rap or even adjacent to that rap but it
2:10:15was very tasty I was actually quite
2:10:17enjoying it and I was feeling pretty
2:10:19good about this food situation I mean
2:10:21yeah the odd wall is still annoying but
2:10:23yeah I've got my diet coke so I got a
2:10:24win there two meals in a row pretty
2:10:27tasty halfway through the meal and god I
2:10:30wish I remember if I was eating with but
2:10:31halfway through the meal I look down and
2:10:33there's a blue thing inside of my wrap
2:10:40this wrap did not contain any other blue
2:10:43objects yet blue is on a common color in
2:10:46food I look down and I pull out this
2:10:50blue thing and I'm pretty sure it was a
2:10:55piece of glove of the person that was
2:10:57preparing my wrap okay and and so my
2:11:03wrap apparently whoever was preparing it
2:11:06not only did
2:11:07they lose a section of their glove but
2:11:11they didn't think it was worth bothering
2:11:13to go and find it again you can complain
2:11:15when you ate their fingertip
2:11:16that's true that's the other class like
2:11:18it when if whatever you know presumably
2:11:20there there's a piece of glove because
2:11:21they probably slice it off with a knife
2:11:22so the question is how deep of that cut
2:11:25go who knows but I did finish my rap and
2:11:27it was very tasty oh my god so at first
2:11:29I have many questions here well let me
2:11:32do my own through my rest of the week
2:11:34summary is that that's the end of my
2:11:35story always anyway then is there any
2:11:39sandwich in the world that is improved
2:11:41by being in a rap instead of umbrella
2:11:44where we've discussed Rams before and I
2:11:46think I like where I came down and the
2:11:47previous thing is like I've tried them
2:11:50I've gone back from several times but in
2:11:52general f raps like like I've regretted
2:11:58it every time and I saw the raps that
2:12:00were there and I saw the one that you're
2:12:01talking about Casey Mike oh that sounds
2:12:02like it might be an interesting combo
2:12:04but I I just can't I just can't do the
2:12:06raps like they just like so they just
2:12:08become one sort of homogeneous
2:12:10concretize solid with just this pasty
2:12:14starch on the outside I think raps can
2:12:16be done well but they are never done
2:12:18well WWC in that trend continues I know
2:12:20a real question real quick question john
2:12:23syracuse of rap sandwich or not um did
2:12:27we do that on the show I try not to
2:12:30contradict myself I had to run it back
2:12:31through the machine I'm gonna say no
2:12:35okay basically I will say no but I went
2:12:38to summarize the rest of my WC lunch
2:12:40experience so the staging was an issue
2:12:42like it was cool they had a lot of
2:12:43outdoor seating we haven't really talked
2:12:46about the weather that much but there
2:12:47were some days where was actually hot
2:12:48but you can put lunches in clear
2:12:50containers out in the hot Sun if you
2:12:53just can't one day I decided to have a
2:12:55salad I thought I had just gotten there
2:12:57like Casey like oh I get there early the
2:12:59food still cold apparently that stuff
2:13:00had been staged there longer than I
2:13:02thought my salad was hot hot salad is
2:13:04not good salads do not respond well to
2:13:07heat and it's like a tiny little
2:13:09greenhouse container it was all wilted
2:13:12and gross and terrible here's the thing
2:13:13that that occurred to me as I went
2:13:16through the week of having lunches and I
2:13:17had that lunch every single day and had
2:13:18that breakfast every single day
2:13:20by day three it became clear that
2:13:23apparently the only non rap bread
2:13:25offered by this catering company is the
2:13:28aforementioned hot dog bun every
2:13:30sandwich was in that hot dog bun there
2:13:32was no escaping it eventually it was
2:13:33like you are telling me that's why I got
2:13:35the salad was like you're telling me not
2:13:37to get a sandwich this is gonna be in a
2:13:39hotdog like that's all I've got
2:13:40like maybe different shades of hotdog
2:13:42bun but it was just terrible like why
2:13:44like it was making me consider raps
2:13:46that's where I'm getting I'm like well
2:13:47at least the rap will be have some more
2:13:49solidity than this this puffy air thing
2:13:52that that hotdog bun destroyed every
2:13:55sandwich that they put it in the content
2:13:57sometimes weren't that bad like vaguely
2:13:59passable lunch made tomatoes look
2:14:01something like tomatoes
2:14:03it was soggy about 50% of the time which
2:14:06is above average for WWDC normally soggy
2:14:09about 75% of the time I did have a dry
2:14:11hotdog bun a couple of occasions which
2:14:13was novel side the side dishes always
2:14:16the side dishes always were explicable
2:14:18the cookies were always not very good I
2:14:22think it was like a brownie or something
2:14:24like I have to say because of the hotdog
2:14:28bun and the explicable sides and the the
2:14:30diminished breakfasts I started to miss
2:14:33the mystery sides from San Francisco
2:14:35visit Lisa then interested everything
2:14:36you never know what the hell crazy thing
2:14:38you were going to get it was almost like
2:14:40those like magic like the like taste
2:14:42berry things at all to your taste for
2:14:43your tongue and everything tastes
2:14:44weirdly enough that's how trying every
2:14:46side thing at Moscone was like you knew
2:14:49it had there was no connection to how it
2:14:51looked versus how it tasted it was
2:14:53always kind of a fun surprise and you
2:14:55try to identify the ingredients in it
2:14:56like what what is it that I'm even
2:14:58eating it so these were all explicable
2:14:59and like because the bread was the same
2:15:01every time like there was no there was
2:15:02no variety was it was like being in jail
2:15:04being in prison like they just every day
2:15:06the same girls like hotdog bun
2:15:09smushy side dish wilted salad and then
2:15:13of course raps but f raps so overall I
2:15:17I'm gonna have to give the San Jose food
2:15:19a lower grade than wEDC
2:15:21like it's kind of like his movies like
2:15:22you know the good bad movie and the flop
2:15:24house parlance where this was not a good
2:15:27bad this is bad bad bad bad lunch let's
2:15:30see that's funny because leaving aside
2:15:32the fact that I probably
2:15:33seemed to tip of a human finger I
2:15:35actually thought the ones you're pretty
2:15:36good sides that is by an optical do we
2:15:39ever eat lunch yeah I think we maybe
2:15:41maybe the very first day we did but we
2:15:43didn't discuss it I we should have
2:15:44discussed lunches lishus or at least
2:15:46I've you should have given me some of
2:15:48your say what what is this food you
2:15:49think is is good what you sure there's
2:15:51not one out for me and then we could all
2:15:52have true and actually try them together
2:15:54no they wouldn't have survived I think
2:15:56it would you like it would become a pool
2:15:58of liquid yeah you get like my faces
2:16:00away from the conference center that's
2:16:02not the structural integrity is is not
2:16:04high actually thank you for not doing
2:16:06the yes it sounds like a I didn't miss
2:16:08much yet stick this off a policy
2:16:10seriously