0:00:01the incomparable number 185 artists 2013
0:00:12welcome back to being comfortable i'm
0:00:14your host Jason L we're here in this
0:00:17installment to talk about neil gaiman
0:00:20most specifically his latest novel the
0:00:23ocean at the end of the lane we might
0:00:25also talk a little bit about other neil
0:00:26gaiman that we have read and thought of
0:00:28but basically we're gonna focus on the
0:00:30ocean at the end of the lane and joining
0:00:32me in this edition of our book club to
0:00:34talk about it i have two lovely guest
0:00:36dan morgan is here as he always is and i
0:00:39do think that i like is i do i know i'm
0:00:42playing his part tonight
0:00:43ok thank you think i will not speak much
0:00:46you can tell me what to read later and
0:00:49uh and also david lawrence here
0:00:51hi again hi back I have have I been here
0:00:54before I let me sit next to this pond
0:00:57and think about them
0:00:59Oh whoo that's a book reference that you
0:01:02did there was I don't know I don't get
0:01:03it
0:01:04so the ocean at the end of the lane a
0:01:06hundred ninety-two page
0:01:08I don't know the backstory here I don't
0:01:09know if who actually did read that he
0:01:12intended this originally to be a short
0:01:13story and then it kind of got out of
0:01:15hand through each other going and
0:01:17telling a little bit and if you're a
0:01:19famous short the successful writer like
0:01:21neil gaiman and you write something of
0:01:22any length that you might consider a
0:01:24novella from somewhere else your agent
0:01:27and your publisher say we wait that the
0:01:30novel but it's it's kinda short at it's
0:01:33a novel will it sell it so it's it's um
0:01:36it's 290 pages line along in my addition
0:01:39I according to wikipedia 292 page don't
0:01:42know you know what hardcover in my hand
0:01:44in 278 even shorter wow look at that so
0:01:47their wikipedia is overselling it
0:01:49well are you suggesting wikipedia is
0:01:50wrong about something my god we've
0:01:52broken the well I don't know tonight up
0:01:56the world is not as it appears dan oh
0:01:59yeah all right there are oceans that are
0:02:02pawns it's very strange
0:02:04so um I actually kind of like before we
0:02:07get into talking about it i really liked
0:02:10reading something that was
0:02:12self-contained and wasn't a
0:02:14thousand-page book that's one in a
0:02:15series it was really nice to read
0:02:17something short and sweet and I liked it
0:02:20a lot but also i like i like the words a
0:02:25lot and i liked the name
0:02:26for of words even more but there weren't
0:02:29that many of them it was kinda nice
0:02:31yeah it's a story that it's very
0:02:33efficiently told some ways which is not
0:02:35to suggest that it's not without its art
0:02:37obviously but can be efficient i think i
0:02:40mean i read this i read this on vacation
0:02:42the week before we're recording this and
0:02:46I read it in a day
0:02:47I mean like I finished a book the
0:02:49previous book I was reading and I was
0:02:50like all right I'm certain your game
0:02:51because I brought it specifically
0:02:52because i want to read on vacation and
0:02:55ended up you know i read in a couple
0:02:56like you know a couple settings settings
0:02:59like when i finished it before bed and
0:03:02yeah i mean that is that's where it's
0:03:04been a long time since i read a book in
0:03:05the day rather than couple settings
0:03:07rather than a tree that you like a
0:03:09forever by a lake
0:03:11I read by the lake i read it on a chick
0:03:13in a chair all right I like a comfy
0:03:15chair and a porch in a bed two sittings
0:03:18and two settings in a box with a fox fox
0:03:21yeah with my studies in my socks and
0:03:24planning I did not read it in the rain I
0:03:27would not could not read it in the rain
0:03:28it's true anyways yeah I wouldn't it was
0:03:30funny because I just talked to sit down
0:03:32have a vacation with my family and my
0:03:35cousin is a couple years older than me
0:03:36is also a bit of you know fantasy
0:03:38science fiction fan and so he's like if
0:03:40you read over the ocean at the
0:03:41underlying yet i was like no no I have
0:03:42it on this trip I'm gonna read it and
0:03:44he's he you know tried very hard not to
0:03:45spoil i actually knew very little about
0:03:47this book going in despite the fact that
0:03:49i follow him on twitter and read his
0:03:50blog like I I sort of got bits and
0:03:52pieces but not I did not read the book
0:03:54jacket or anything like that I kind of
0:03:56went in unprepared and I think you know
0:03:59what i think i like that you know i
0:04:00think that's something I don't do very
0:04:01often and it's refreshing it's like
0:04:03going to a movie that you don't know
0:04:04anything about right and then you're
0:04:06surprised and delighted by it like oh
0:04:08wow this is pretty cool i dont even into
0:04:10a trailer or commercial for anything and
0:04:11they're required backstory don't want to
0:04:14know what universe it's set in or what
0:04:16series it's a part of or anything like
0:04:18that it's just
0:04:19hey Neil Gaiman road new book i'm going
0:04:21to read it anyway yeah and i have a
0:04:22further point about that but I wait wait
0:04:23until we get to the book discussion so
0:04:25noted yet I mean I i read it in two
0:04:27sittings to just over two nights but any
0:04:30settings only only one only one to enter
0:04:34next Settings icon
0:04:35yeah yeah next time I'll build a set
0:04:38there you go there you do that
0:04:39and yeah i mean i originally I got it
0:04:42just because my older son is in to neil
0:04:46gaiman thanks to Coraline and the
0:04:48graveyard book and without alright you
0:04:52know we'll get this and yeah if if i get
0:04:55around to reading it
0:04:56so when you through this and there's no
0:04:58yeah alright i can do that and you
0:05:01mentioned it to an actor friend of mine
0:05:03and he said oh my god you're going to
0:05:06love it said okay you know whatever
0:05:09any-any didn't spoil and he wanted to
0:05:10you know it was the same kind of thing
0:05:11and so last night after i finished it i
0:05:15sent him a message
0:05:16I said oh my god and he said yep there
0:05:20you go and i'll tell you what else he
0:05:21said later but that's part of the book
0:05:24discussion one of the things I really
0:05:25liked about this book is ok first off
0:05:29Neil Gaiman is a really good writer
0:05:31let's just say yeah well he's either
0:05:32that's a given let's just put that you
0:05:34enter that into evidence
0:05:36well there are a lot of successful
0:05:38people were big fan followings I'm not
0:05:40naming names who are even even something
0:05:44like george RR martin who has got a lot
0:05:45of things going for people whose books I
0:05:48like we don't need to talk about like
0:05:49feed and things like that people whose
0:05:51books i like but I read them i think
0:05:53well I like the idea is more than I like
0:05:55the actual writing right real game is a
0:05:58good writer yeah and sometimes the words
0:06:00are to the you know to the service of
0:06:02the book we you don't stop and reread
0:06:04that particular turn of phrase for
0:06:06example and there's nothing wrong with
0:06:08that either plenty of books i read where
0:06:09it's like I've died like the story like
0:06:12the characters not really paying a lot
0:06:13of attention the writing but like that
0:06:14that that is sort of that's like gravy
0:06:17for me like if you know and sometimes it
0:06:19gets in the way like there are there
0:06:20definitely writers who try too hard to
0:06:23be like good like lyrical writers and
0:06:26they that it just gets obfuscating in
0:06:29terms of like the story but but his
0:06:31stuff is subtle and not something you I
0:06:35you know occasionally find myself
0:06:36re-reading sentences and I'm realizing
0:06:38that sir it's really really well-crafted
0:06:39sentence did not show we necessarily no
0:06:43no they're not just weren't but they're
0:06:45there to the point and yet I think about
0:06:48your laurita sensitive man if I wrote
0:06:49that sounds that sounds would be like
0:06:51super way boring way more boring
0:06:53yeah if you wrote that particular
0:06:56sentence you like punch the air and get
0:06:57up and go with you I'll be like oh my
0:06:59god i'm neil gaiman that's amazing but
0:07:01yeah yeah he's a good writer and um and
0:07:06then I like the tone of this book and
0:07:07and I've seen their similar tones and
0:07:10some of the other books that he's
0:07:11written a lot of his books have this
0:07:13kind of tone but I like that it's you
0:07:15know it starts off as a memoir it turns
0:07:18into sort of a fairy tale it never it
0:07:23never seems even when it's sort of at
0:07:26its most scary or at least has the most
0:07:29plot complication by the antagonist of
0:07:32the story
0:07:33it never I don't know it always seems
0:07:36kind of gentle I'll take issue with that
0:07:39one particular scene but overall I think
0:07:41I fair enough i think i'll see where I
0:07:43see where you're going a reminder there
0:07:44is
0:07:45yes that's right the core there's a some
0:07:47ugliness but around especially the first
0:07:48part of it i mean yeah you really
0:07:50essentially are reading his memoir and
0:07:52until suddenly it becomes something
0:07:54that's different but it's just it's i
0:07:57don't know it was very pleasant to read
0:07:59the whole experience was pleasant in in
0:08:01all the settings and settings that it
0:08:03took three did make me think that like
0:08:05other you mention the memoir part like I
0:08:06and knowing as much about neil gaiman as
0:08:08i did because i have followed him for
0:08:11many years and like personally like a
0:08:13foam around now I because I because I've
0:08:15read a lot of this stuff because i read
0:08:16his blog i know a little bit about you
0:08:17know his life whatever shares in the
0:08:19internet and so knowing that stuff it
0:08:21was very interesting to read and try to
0:08:23figure out how much of this is
0:08:24influenced by you know his own life
0:08:26because it's not hard to read into that
0:08:30at least in the beginning you know that
0:08:31there's they're certainly elements of
0:08:33sure but yeah I thought that was I
0:08:35thought that was interesting one and the
0:08:37gentleness is what makes those horrific
0:08:41moments stand out and makes them that
0:08:44much more effective to because it's
0:08:48almost like he's load you into this
0:08:50just beautiful storytelling in this
0:08:53beautiful setting and even when I mean
0:08:57the characters are doing that too right
0:08:59yeah the the family whose name now the
0:09:04hem stocks right they
0:09:06great they keep reassuring him to in his
0:09:09flashbacks that it's gonna be okay just
0:09:13hold my hand everything's going to be
0:09:14fine and so not only is the writer and
0:09:17the tone of the book reassuring you the
0:09:19characters are reassuring the the
0:09:21protagonist it's gonna be okay don't
0:09:24worry about it just hold on it's gonna
0:09:25be fine
0:09:26well I'm not that worried it's not gonna
0:09:28be a problem
0:09:29it's fine and then enforce it it's not
0:09:31entirely five break when it's a way of
0:09:34getting him through it and even at the
0:09:36end when he gets through in a different
0:09:40way
0:09:40trying not to spoil anything but again
0:09:44it comes back to the reassurance and the
0:09:46yes of course that's exactly how it went
0:09:49yes it's okay the the writer reminded me
0:09:53the most of the book that reminded me
0:09:55the most up was actually ray bradbury
0:09:57something wicked this way cause like
0:10:00yeah there's a very similar tone to that
0:10:03book which is also sort of about dealing
0:10:05with that childhood not quite the cusp
0:10:10of childhood but like there's an element
0:10:11of being a kid and being exposed to
0:10:13these fantastical elements and you know
0:10:17I think we all it's always interesting
0:10:19to read a book from the perspective of a
0:10:21child especially like fancy books like
0:10:23this because i don't know about you guys
0:10:26but I kind of really putting myself back
0:10:27in the you know in the mindset of
0:10:29feeling like a kid again and thinking
0:10:31about how when you're a kid how real all
0:10:33those things are to you and so there's a
0:10:35lot of the book which for me at least
0:10:38the first half or so I reading through
0:10:39like well there's a lot in here that you
0:10:41can kind of you could almost rationalize
0:10:45in a very logical like real world kind
0:10:47of way like there are real-world events
0:10:49that might cause a child to you know
0:10:53imagine these types of things compounded
0:10:56with you know something bad happening
0:10:58right like their traumatic events for
0:11:01example that could happen and how that
0:11:03might turn into a different sort of
0:11:05story in your head as a child thinking
0:11:07about it that are very different from
0:11:09the perspective of being an adult which
0:11:11is why you know when we sort of lead
0:11:12into the book it starts with the adult
0:11:14and then regreses back to the kid for it
0:11:17so I I thought that was very interesting
0:11:19very
0:11:19all done because it when you are kid all
0:11:22that stuff is so real to you like I mean
0:11:25being a kid you know if the idea of like
0:11:27a monster under your bed or something
0:11:28like that right like that is that is
0:11:29real tangible thing to you as a child in
0:11:32a way that doesn't really make sense
0:11:33into even looking back from an adult
0:11:35like oh how could I have even believe
0:11:37that but at the time it doesn't matter
0:11:38right like it's true as far as you're
0:11:39concerned because it has an effect on
0:11:41you so I think he's great at capturing
0:11:43that element of you know how real and
0:11:47visceral these things feel as a child
0:11:49and just the idea of the unexplained
0:11:51should we fire off the spoiler horn and
0:11:54talk about this a little more detail
0:11:55go for it
0:12:00right now I had so let me let me visit I
0:12:03was just saying it but in like concrete
0:12:05terms okay yeah i'm laying on me so you
0:12:07know we have to deal with the the fact
0:12:09that this this this kid basically she's
0:12:11like a dead body right like that's the
0:12:12first sort of major thing that happens
0:12:14in the book I feel like I mean and else
0:12:17is a really horrific i mean like the
0:12:18thing before before there's before
0:12:21there's real magic right there is he
0:12:24sees the well
0:12:26oh yeah you're right though damn i mean
0:12:27first off they may kill his kitten
0:12:29yeah that God man attacks the cab driver
0:12:32comes up and kills his kitten the new
0:12:34larger it's like what got you a new cat
0:12:37had like a million evil cat right now
0:12:39cat and his little black kitten honest
0:12:41with you mind that that's so sad because
0:12:43as I grew I grew up with cats and we
0:12:46were right on the highway and the cats
0:12:48didn't last very long i have I I cannot
0:12:50tell you how many kind of forward of
0:12:52things in my childhood I can mark by the
0:12:54death of an animal like that that might
0:12:57you know my cats that when they were hit
0:12:59by a car on the highway just awful and
0:13:03so that really hit home and that's
0:13:05before even the larger and kills himself
0:13:07out by the end of the lane right well
0:13:10and that to me that element i mean i
0:13:11didn't i did not have pets going up and
0:13:13the closest I got was like a friend of
0:13:15mine got a cat like a kitten and his mom
0:13:18was like oh well you know like you don't
0:13:19get to have a cat like a parent watching
0:13:21very carefully you can like have like
0:13:22part-owner so you can like come over and
0:13:24visit the cat and like and then they had
0:13:26to put the cat to sleep like two weeks
0:13:27later because I always and I was like
0:13:29three probably a really good thing that
0:13:31I didn't have a cat because that would
0:13:33just like broken me as a child but like
0:13:35but your he writes about it so so
0:13:39pointedly that you can't help that
0:13:40something was like I couldn't help but
0:13:42feel like this happened like it out real
0:13:44but it's almost rolled dollars yeah wait
0:13:47for me to where it's like you start the
0:13:48story and it's like here's a boy and he
0:13:51had a perfectly ordinary childhood and
0:13:53he had a cat and the cat was crushed by
0:13:55a cab driver because their parents had
0:13:57to rent out rooms because they're you
0:13:59know they they didn't have the money
0:14:00like wow whoa nobody came to his
0:14:04birthday party and nobody comes to a
0:14:05birthday party just him
0:14:07yeah very rolled all right i mean i
0:14:10always go back to change the gigantic
0:14:11that's it that's it that's it
0:14:12informative book for me
0:14:14and.and I read some of these books and
0:14:16every time i get there i get a little
0:14:17sensitive and sponge and spiker and I
0:14:20gah it's doing that and then their
0:14:22parents were eating at the zoo and admit
0:14:24I got some of that from the ocean at the
0:14:26end of the line and you know he has to
0:14:28give up his bedroom
0:14:29it's not just oh yeah he has to give up
0:14:31the bedroom that was especially you know
0:14:33to get the washbasin just his job for
0:14:35him sleep and sleep in his sister's room
0:14:38blue we see what I'm saying like in
0:14:40terms of like the effects of something
0:14:42that's real like so you know you feel
0:14:43like with the dead body and then later
0:14:45on there's in the other and i know this
0:14:47is skipping around a little bit like the
0:14:49the antagonist of the book Ursula
0:14:53Monkton moncton like you know so she
0:14:57basically like his father basically has
0:15:00an affair with her right like you can
0:15:02almost see that as like in a real world
0:15:05event that was viewed through the life
0:15:07of a child she must be a monster because
0:15:08she came in and broke up my family right
0:15:10like and and that's the the line that it
0:15:13walks that makes this so powerful for me
0:15:15is like you know obviously not
0:15:18everything is something that can be
0:15:19explained rationally in this in this
0:15:21story but there are like little touch
0:15:22points of that where that line is very
0:15:25permeable for children right the line
0:15:27between reality and fantasy and
0:15:29imagination and and I think that's he
0:15:32does such a great job of capturing what
0:15:35it's like to be a small child who has
0:15:37that imagination especially because I
0:15:38don't you guys but like identified with
0:15:40him in terms of like you talk about him
0:15:42read books all the time write like that
0:15:44was me like growing up like I read books
0:15:45like all the time I had my nose in a
0:15:48book all the time and that's and that's
0:15:49definitely how I felt at that point
0:15:50about like the imagining all these
0:15:52adventures and stories and great things
0:15:53that I could go off and be doing and and
0:15:56that is why it's such a such a great
0:15:59piece of work in in terms of bringing
0:16:01this character to life and that was to
0:16:04call back to an earlier point that I
0:16:05said about my cousin mention this book
0:16:07to me he said he he explained he was
0:16:09telling a friend about the book is like
0:16:10I really love this book about this boy
0:16:12you know and he has this interesting
0:16:13experience as a kid and he goes through
0:16:15some of it and his friend estimate its
0:16:18voice name and he suddenly stopped and
0:16:20realizes right action
0:16:23wait hold on you never told us they like
0:16:25and that's like but I didn't realize it
0:16:27until I was
0:16:27really acts asked about it like it
0:16:30didn't register in my in my mind that
0:16:32were never told what his name is right I
0:16:35that's amazing
0:16:36the framing sequence of this book to is
0:16:38that he's in town for a funeral
0:16:41I kind of assumed it's a funeral of one
0:16:43of his parents as well now although it's
0:16:45never made clear who
0:16:47yeah uh which i think i kinda like and
0:16:51given what we see about his parents and
0:16:53and how Ursula Monkton and you know
0:16:55basically inserts herself in this family
0:16:57and you know have sex with the father
0:17:00and and the and the narrator sees that
0:17:04there's something going on there and you
0:17:06could on one level blade say well it was
0:17:08magic it's not his fault but what is
0:17:10Ursula Monkton story she she wants
0:17:13everybody to be happy
0:17:15these horrible things that she does are
0:17:16all actually trying to give people kind
0:17:19of what they want which is even more
0:17:21horrible but then so this family that's
0:17:24had all this stuff i mean when we see
0:17:26the framing sequence we're seeing that
0:17:28he's an adult now and so presumably one
0:17:32of his parents has died and he's
0:17:34avoiding going to the reception have to
0:17:37the after the bear held by instead going
0:17:39to this this house at the end of the
0:17:40lane then and then we find out that he's
0:17:43gone there will be several times really
0:17:46his life but never remembers which is I
0:17:49mean I literally I this never used to
0:17:54happen to me I used to be you know stoic
0:17:57right
0:17:58all my life I mean I credits me come
0:18:00home when I was seven I cried at the end
0:18:03of Wrath of Khan and we're not even when
0:18:05Spock dies it's when Kirk's voice goes
0:18:08his was the most here right yeah it's
0:18:12just okay i'm done right
0:18:14yeah and and I cried when they did the
0:18:16memorial special after Jim Henson passed
0:18:19away and that you know they do the big
0:18:21song at the end of just one person
0:18:23believes in you long enough and strong
0:18:25enough to call God you know you know but
0:18:28aside from that nothing nothing got me
0:18:31Bambi nothing Old Yeller dog bad i just
0:18:35i right
0:18:37but just I'm sorry thanks them any sense
0:18:39more editing work for me them also use
0:18:42it wasn't me
0:18:43usually I'm worried about that but yeah
0:18:47after I had children I think was we had
0:18:52the first one for a couple months and I
0:18:54just needed something to read because
0:18:57you know I hadn't read books in awhile
0:18:59this year it's just baby baby baby oh
0:19:02baby and i read this Batman no man's
0:19:05land by graça that's great I loved
0:19:07acting
0:19:09oh yeah and there's the adaptation of
0:19:11that arc in the graphic novels and it
0:19:16gets to the subplot where the Joker's
0:19:18kidnapped all the newborn baby boys in
0:19:20Gotham and is going to kill them one by
0:19:22one and I'm sitting there just tears
0:19:24pouring down my face and going this is a
0:19:27bad man novel what is wrong with me
0:19:29right
0:19:30and ever since then I much more
0:19:33sensitive to things like that and the
0:19:36end of this book i read the last two
0:19:38chapters with tears just pouring down my
0:19:40face not you know I'm not having
0:19:42hysterics may be quiet but just I
0:19:45couldn't stop and you know then it was
0:19:48just sort of like I described last night
0:19:50as the this sort of full chest feeling
0:19:54of sorrow and joy and redemption and
0:19:59sadness and you know just all-in-one and
0:20:02you know the thought that you know it's
0:20:07almost it's almost going back to wrinkle
0:20:10in time it's as if Charles Wallace
0:20:13didn't come back and saved the rest of
0:20:17them if that makes sense
0:20:19Yeah right right yes yeah it you're
0:20:22right because it's that sacrifice of the
0:20:25one who spoons special and has the most
0:20:28special talent to save everybody else in
0:20:31this case to save the unnamed narrator
0:20:33and you know so so having that echoing
0:20:38for me was kinda weird to like oh my god
0:20:41i was thinking of Florida rings during
0:20:43when when they explain what's happening
0:20:46with letty at the end of this book where
0:20:48she's been attacked and
0:20:50is dying and I I think it's the you know
0:20:52it's so see metaphors there in the ocean
0:20:54they're going off and the seabed might
0:20:57be back but the the ocean is the
0:20:59universe right it looks like you you
0:21:02don't recognize her when she comes back
0:21:04if she comes back i just love the the
0:21:05one line that i felt like i should have
0:21:08important i was reading this in
0:21:09hardcover so it's harder to highlight
0:21:11things but the one that I remembered was
0:21:13that the the narrator asks her at one
0:21:16point he says but how old are you
0:21:18she says 11 he says how long have you
0:21:21been 11
0:21:22yeah what a great line the light falls
0:21:24on
0:21:25yes that that's a sense for a long time
0:21:28yeah so i mean her little brother is
0:21:29jeff t yeah well see that's I I felt
0:21:35like Ray Bradbury but i also got a lot
0:21:36of Harlan Ellison in this well Neil
0:21:39Gaiman I mean this is his yeah right i
0:21:41mean it's that it's that it's magical
0:21:44but it's it's it's not grounded
0:21:47yeah exactly right it's grounded yeah in
0:21:49a way that a lot of the the Harlan
0:21:50Ellison stuff is and I mean that's why
0:21:52Neil Gaiman Harlan also know i mean i
0:21:54think you know know each other pretty
0:21:56well and I mean but here they are very
0:21:58similar in in some ways and very
0:22:00different mothers
0:22:01even Neil Gaiman seems very gentle and
0:22:04not but up although i will take as i
0:22:08mentioned that one seal i was reading
0:22:10this out on the docket our lake and uh I
0:22:13got to the bathtub scene and so the
0:22:17scene in which his father basically
0:22:18tries to drown trying to drown him yeah
0:22:19and I finished reading that and I close
0:22:23the book and just sort of give a visit
0:22:25like a audible like you know I had to
0:22:29stop at that was like the end of my
0:22:31first sort of you know sitting reading
0:22:33it because it's just I could I needed to
0:22:35breathe after that right like it was so
0:22:37well done and so affecting of you know
0:22:41why I can imagine it right but like you
0:22:45know the idea of your father trying to
0:22:46drown you like it is terrifying and but
0:22:51you know that that element of being a
0:22:53kid and being not having control right
0:22:56and not having and something has entered
0:22:58your world and it's change your world
0:23:00and you don't like what's happened right
0:23:02fundamentally that's what Ursula Monkton
0:23:04is that she's invested their house but
0:23:05she's she's causing change and it's
0:23:08changed that the about this boy you know
0:23:10for lots of good reasons doesn't like
0:23:12but you can see the the metaphor there
0:23:15yeah absolutely i just did but it's just
0:23:18it was so affecting i had to put it on
0:23:19ya and that almost never happens to me I
0:23:22almost always you know so like yeah I've
0:23:24more stoic probably the day it's park
0:23:26yeah but like that but no idea that was
0:23:28it was a visceral like I need to set
0:23:30this aside for you know what our two
0:23:32before I can go back to reading it
0:23:33because that just that was that was
0:23:35pretty brutal
0:23:36so can I talk about cats
0:23:39we'll just we'll just turn around and
0:23:41you guys I'm not even about this book
0:23:43looks just like cats you know if they're
0:23:45so soft and no in there are some their
0:23:48cats in this book and it and it's not
0:23:50just the poor kitten and the mean cat
0:23:52that's the replacement for his poor kid
0:23:542010 Fresh perplex the field but they've
0:23:56got the they've got the the this kitten
0:23:59that they find in the other you know
0:24:02fairy world basically where they go and
0:24:06it comes back with them and it's just
0:24:09kind of flips around in between and in
0:24:11and it looks a lot like this kid many
0:24:14have the died it's another black kitten
0:24:16and it appears at various points and out
0:24:20at one point at the end I think there's
0:24:22a statement about him
0:24:23him bringing back a kitten at some point
0:24:26is gonna get his childhood and I just I
0:24:28I don't have a whole like deep meaning
0:24:31of what the kitten is other than then I
0:24:33really liked that there's this idea
0:24:35first off that there was this cat that
0:24:36was special to him and then the
0:24:37replacement was not acceptable and then
0:24:39also that cats are are these kind of
0:24:41mysterious and semi magical creatures
0:24:44and they there they don't even come from
0:24:46where you think they come from they come
0:24:48from this other land where they just
0:24:50kind of appear and and i I just I
0:24:53enjoyed that because it was just this
0:24:54element that is that recurs that was fun
0:24:56and and I as a as a boy you know when I
0:25:01was a boy I really liked cats and we had
0:25:03we had cats out you know because I grew
0:25:05up in the country and we have less
0:25:06outside cats and so that so that really
0:25:09resonated with me that this is a boy
0:25:11who's growing up and he has this cat and
0:25:13then and then the cats kind of recur
0:25:15which is just
0:25:16it's such a funny little thing we didn't
0:25:18have spawned the way accounts we had an
0:25:21ocean ocean we had three cats at any
0:25:25given time all through my childhood and
0:25:28and we and we were kinda out in the
0:25:30country in Florida but after after i
0:25:34left Florida didn't have cats until I
0:25:37got married and moved out here because
0:25:40my wife was are always a dog person and
0:25:43then we accidentally became cat owners
0:25:45and she just fell lock stock and barrel
0:25:47for cats and now we have three cats go
0:25:49figure
0:25:50so it's sort of like it was the same
0:25:52kind of thing for me was like they're
0:25:53very comforting essence and I like me
0:25:56back my childhood and I like the idea to
0:25:58the cats are they are you know these
0:26:00particular Creek particularly or unworld
0:26:02otherworldly let's say creatures that's
0:26:06that works in fact that we have some
0:26:08magical kind of strange they come and go
0:26:10where do they go we don't know
0:26:12yeah you suddenly just reminded me in i
0:26:15believe in terry pratchett swirled cats
0:26:18can see the colour of magic like
0:26:21naturally with humans can see which is
0:26:23interesting interesting to me because of
0:26:25course Terry Pratchett neil gaiman also
0:26:26friends and collaborators
0:26:27yeah but there is there is definitely
0:26:29that you're totally right about that
0:26:30there is something about the cats that
0:26:32like like children is that that wine is
0:26:35permeable for them what it's amazing to
0:26:37watch them in and if you want the long
0:26:41enough to see them looking at things and
0:26:43you can't you have no idea what they're
0:26:45looking at you are they looking at dust
0:26:47motes floating in sunlight
0:26:49I don't know but there's nothing there
0:26:52there's nothing on the wall
0:26:53what are you doing there reading your
0:26:54soul there can't reaches up and slaps
0:26:57the wall and you go okay magic if you're
0:27:00just tuning in this is the cat fanciers
0:27:02episode of and council podcast it's the
0:27:05cast now it's a podcast about it's a pod
0:27:08cat my cat cats for cats there cats
0:27:12funny cats listen to podcasts
0:27:16you'd be surprised and probably will
0:27:18need to press well most cats don't but
0:27:21those who have jobs and have to drive a
0:27:23car to ease you into my award-winning
0:27:25short story the cat who listen to
0:27:27podcasts
0:27:28no what award did that win that one cat
0:27:31fancy podcast of the year award that
0:27:34related word I knew it I knew it has
0:27:37asked cats a script by name
0:27:40alright it's time for this week's
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0:29:28incomparable so one of the other things
0:29:30I mean there's the there's there's a lot
0:29:33in this you know less than 200 pages i
0:29:36like the scene where they wear Letty
0:29:41forms
0:29:42the circle draws the circle which is a
0:29:44no-good magic kind of thing to do and
0:29:46tells the boy stay in here and you know
0:29:49he learned his lesson right that when
0:29:51she said always hold my hand and he lets
0:29:53go for a minute and you know which worm
0:29:55thing goes into his foot
0:29:57i wiii i did you know that was great
0:29:59about because i was reading through that
0:30:00and I was thinking that that seems that
0:30:02same scene i was thinking there's going
0:30:03to be the point where the monsters show
0:30:06up as Letty and try to convince him to
0:30:08go out of the circle
0:30:09I want him to be smart enough not to
0:30:11fall for that and he doesn't and i was
0:30:13so happy about that because I'm like if
0:30:15i can think of it this boy can think of
0:30:17it right like he's a smart kid we've
0:30:18learned that like he's made mistakes but
0:30:20like he's in you know he sort of has
0:30:22bought into the world and understands
0:30:24kind of how things are working now and
0:30:26so I liked that he he didn't leave the
0:30:28circle because that is like a lot of
0:30:30books that would have been like all
0:30:32right now we're off on another set of
0:30:33adventures but in this one like he
0:30:35learned his lesson
0:30:35another good lesson you learned his
0:30:37lesson i just read i was just reading
0:30:39them send Sandman preludes nocturnes and
0:30:42apparently key scene there were a circle
0:30:44is accidentally don't break those
0:30:45circles broken open and that it's bad
0:30:48things for the people who broke breaker
0:30:49the circle circle stream is on the
0:30:51inside now we can get out but here this
0:30:54is this is his he learned he he made the
0:30:57mistake of letting go of her hand at the
0:30:59beginning and here he knows that he
0:31:01needs to sit there but what's tough
0:31:02about that situation what's so
0:31:04interesting about in the dark outside
0:31:06the house is that he has to be alone and
0:31:09he can't make them go away all he can do
0:31:12is sit there and take it and so he's
0:31:15visited and he has to sit there and take
0:31:17it and he has to sit and take his
0:31:19temptations and abuse and he end and the
0:31:23sort of dashing of his hopes and he has
0:31:25to just sit there he learned his lesson
0:31:27and so he does and that's what saved his
0:31:29life and and one of the things that
0:31:31school is you know like when his father
0:31:32comes out and his sister comes out you
0:31:35don't know if those are really them but
0:31:37it could be right because they could
0:31:39come out and be like why are you out
0:31:40here in the backyard
0:31:42yeah yeah I was that was it or was it or
0:31:48was it who knows because they could have
0:31:50been under the under the spell of evil
0:31:52Ursula Monkton to the house the whole
0:31:54thing where the house
0:31:55just in the house is a threat and you
0:31:57know nobody believes the whole thing
0:31:58where the mother doesn't believe him and
0:32:00his sister doesn't believe him and and
0:32:02that was again I was having those and
0:32:03sponge and spyker kind of moments of
0:32:05just like this poor oh this poor kid he
0:32:08knows the truth but nobody will believe
0:32:10him and it's just so you know it it it's
0:32:14a classic thing but it's just it was so
0:32:17well done i gotta say I really loved
0:32:19there are some funny points too
0:32:20surprisingly the cart they got me
0:32:22actually made me laugh out loud was the
0:32:25scene where his parents come to collect
0:32:26them from the have stocks and this
0:32:29imagine your toothbrush
0:32:30he's like picturing and picturing it and
0:32:32I'm like what does have to do and then
0:32:33they kind of distract you and then like
0:32:35they pull out the and you put thanks for
0:32:37bringing his toothbrush and like the
0:32:38father kind of puzzle bleep rope pulls
0:32:40the truth project this pocket I was like
0:32:41that's a mitt like you such a good job
0:32:44of the misdirection in the Senate
0:32:46everything there i laughed out loud at
0:32:48the ohio i guess i have his toothbrush
0:32:49in my pockets like is I see what you did
0:32:51there and that's and that's interesting
0:32:54magic because it doesn't play on are all
0:32:56the things we know about magic instead
0:32:57they're like stitching together like
0:32:59reading reality it's so mundane is not
0:33:01known which is hilarious
0:33:03yeah they're just doing their work and I
0:33:04ki think I can do this I can put this
0:33:06together and they're reading the fabric
0:33:08of reality but they're not casting
0:33:09spells or anything at some point he says
0:33:11are you
0:33:12you know gonna do a spell or something
0:33:13or like something else like that no we
0:33:16don't do that but they they do succeed
0:33:18in changing the parents memories and and
0:33:21and making the toothbrush like appear or
0:33:24retro actively be brought or whatever
0:33:26right
0:33:27this result like a doctor who moment
0:33:28there yeah oh yeah one I love the moment
0:33:31where he's being chased by the vultures
0:33:35of the void and that you know they start
0:33:38to attack and then it goes into
0:33:40parentheses and italics where he feels
0:33:44the sensation of dying he feels the
0:33:46sensation of the culture ripping his
0:33:48heart out
0:33:48oh yeah and and then oh yeah and then
0:33:50all of a sudden it's nip and
0:33:52everything's the seams came together and
0:33:54suddenly he's fine and let is on top of
0:33:56him and he set that up so beautifully by
0:33:59doing the earlier thing of talking about
0:34:01how they stitched together things and
0:34:04snip here and snip there and put it back
0:34:06together almost like a film
0:34:07and but he doesn't make a big deal of it
0:34:10in that moment it's just you have to
0:34:11remember that right but afterward they
0:34:13make it clear that they basically went
0:34:15back and fixed it so he didn't get torn
0:34:17up into little pieces
0:34:19yeah but it's so beautiful gasps oh I'm
0:34:24and part of the reason i love this and
0:34:26I'll say this is maybe my favorite thing
0:34:30of his I've ever read
0:34:31um because I I like bits and pieces of
0:34:35american gods but I don't like american
0:34:37gods
0:34:38it's just too long and and I like a
0:34:41Nancy boys but and i love the graveyard
0:34:45book um but this is just the right
0:34:50length it it really couldn't be shorter
0:34:52but it really couldn't be longer and I
0:34:55mean there's no padding there's no fat
0:34:58in this book it's just everything is
0:35:00right there and it's done and it's just
0:35:03beautiful
0:35:04oh yeah I don't know I've read
0:35:05everything I was looking through the
0:35:08front of the book where has the also by
0:35:09Neil Gaiman list I've read everything in
0:35:11that list is the for adults and i have
0:35:13read many of the things in the for all
0:35:16ages they're not most of the illustrated
0:35:17stuff honestly and I've red Sandman
0:35:20which is salmon may still be my favorite
0:35:24because i like those long epic things
0:35:27and Sandman is is amazing in terms of
0:35:29its ability to weave all these men you
0:35:31know huge amounts of genres together and
0:35:34it's so varied and so amazing and there
0:35:36are there are episodes there are issues
0:35:38of that than my mind are almost like
0:35:40almost a perfect almost a perfect story
0:35:44in my regards
0:35:45so I will but I i love this as well and
0:35:48I I like almost everything he's written
0:35:50i have enjoyed almost everything that
0:35:52he's written some of it I you know some
0:35:53of it sticks better than others in my
0:35:55head but I think he's amazing as an
0:35:57author I can turn one of those gushing
0:36:00podcast i know that's the people the
0:36:02people who like us to love things will
0:36:04love this episode the people who like us
0:36:05to tear things apart will be very sad
0:36:07I i did not like American my love I left
0:36:11American Gods I like tonight is great i
0:36:14I didn't think I like well it wasn't too
0:36:16long there was two there were probably
0:36:18some chapters in there that weren't
0:36:20necessary that's problem
0:36:21true but I liked it a lot i I really
0:36:23enjoyed that I just read never where I
0:36:26like never wear and I liked it is fun
0:36:29IIF I read it I haven't seen the TV the
0:36:32TV mini-series this we definitely has
0:36:34aged poorly well so there's things that
0:36:37are great about it and there are things
0:36:38that are weird about it and it
0:36:40definitely is low budget and what was
0:36:42odd about never wears the stories that
0:36:43started as the TV
0:36:45yeah and then he injected into a novel
0:36:47which is very odd but some of the
0:36:49performances in there are fantastic the
0:36:51guy who plays the Marquis is great and
0:36:54that that will that I think that 10 so
0:36:57yeah
0:36:57Harrison Joseph was great in that he's
0:36:59fantastic was rumored at one point to be
0:37:01a doctor in the lander eleventh Doctor
0:37:03contender and of course islington the
0:37:05angel is Peter Capaldi yes in radio
0:37:09adaptation they did this year
0:37:11benedict cumberbatch andy him mrs.
0:37:13Lincoln yeah I mean listen I had not
0:37:14listened to that but I i really i love
0:37:16the book I thought he does it again that
0:37:18is such an interesting because it that's
0:37:19really about the permeation between the
0:37:21lines of reality and fantasy right like
0:37:23very very strongly delineating there and
0:37:26that's kind of weird game and lives
0:37:27right like that's his that's his wheel
0:37:29her but that was also every having read
0:37:32them in the reverse of how when they
0:37:33were written i also have enjoyed the
0:37:36city in the city
0:37:38china mieville kind of feeling with a
0:37:40with me everywhere because it's that and
0:37:42I know that there are others navel
0:37:44drawing a book called on London they're
0:37:47a bunch of urban fantasy books that play
0:37:49this trope now but it's almost like you
0:37:51know game and got there a little while
0:37:53before this latest wave with never wear
0:37:55where it is the there's the London you
0:37:57know and then there's the magical London
0:37:59that's living you know underground
0:38:01mostly but just you know in parallel
0:38:04with what's happening on the what we
0:38:06regular people think of us as London and
0:38:09uh yeah i like i like it a lot is Nancy
0:38:12boys is fine i always remember too well
0:38:14that the story of Anansi the spider was
0:38:15something that I really remember clearly
0:38:17learning in childhood
0:38:19yeah and so to see that and that's
0:38:22essentially you know spin-off of
0:38:23American Gods uh but and I liked it but
0:38:27I loved american gods and the graveyard
0:38:29book now that is a book that's just
0:38:32amazing that is a that
0:38:35is a great piece of work that might be
0:38:36that might be my favorite of his uh and
0:38:40and you know the fact that it's
0:38:42essentially a young adult book but and
0:38:45he front loads it with the worst part
0:38:47the murder happens at the very beginning
0:38:51and everything else after that it's not
0:38:53so bad it's not that murder that
0:38:55happened at the beginning where the kids
0:38:57parents get killed get stabbed by the
0:38:59guy with the big knife man after that
0:39:01it's just ghosts and friendly ghosts and
0:39:04yeah it's fine but that beginning you
0:39:07know that's a yeah he's had an
0:39:10interesting career has me he's got his
0:39:12screenplays and he's got his comics and
0:39:15he's got stories and he's got a young
0:39:17adult and juvenile fiction and then he's
0:39:19got adult fiction he is all over the
0:39:23place
0:39:24Miriam ask ya so imagine
0:39:28yeah they're so there's a lot there
0:39:29without i have good omens and I haven't
0:39:31read it that I would only ask you that
0:39:33that was the first real game and thing
0:39:34i've ever read because i was huge terry
0:39:36pratchett fans starting back in cheese I
0:39:38must have been like 10 or something i
0:39:40started reading terry pratchett and and
0:39:43somehow i came across that when I was
0:39:45like well there's this other guy right
0:39:46to terry pratchett maybe this will be
0:39:47good though and i actually have a my
0:39:50copy of that is autographed by both of
0:39:52them because i saw them in close
0:39:53succession you notice my old like
0:39:55dog-eared paperback of them but they it
0:39:57was it still feels cool to me they have
0:39:59like that I love that book it's just
0:40:01it's it's such a fascinating melange of
0:40:04the two writers out there but there's
0:40:07parts of that book that stick with me to
0:40:08this day even though i haven't read it
0:40:10in like 15-20 years probably but yeah
0:40:15and there's some line about like a guy
0:40:17with a is his wound from Nam was acting
0:40:19up and there's a footnote it's like he'd
0:40:21gone to be at nam and slipped in the
0:40:23shower or something like that but that's
0:40:26a very terry pratchett but like it's
0:40:27still like it was its just oh it's a
0:40:29lovely book about the apocalypse
0:40:31so yeah I again i'm a huge fan of of i
0:40:36have I think devoured almost everything
0:40:39that he's written at least four adults
0:40:41mostly young adults i have to the
0:40:45volumes of absolute sandman sitting on
0:40:47my bottom shelf and some day will come
0:40:48not a collection but those aren't cheap
0:40:51no they're not like a hundred bucks a
0:40:53shot well you feel you can figure out
0:40:55how to do it right you can get a little
0:40:56bit cheaper than that but still he asked
0:40:57they're expensive
0:40:58yeah but they're gorgeous it's the only
0:41:01tough part with them is like it's hard
0:41:02to read because it's like they're so big
0:41:04it's like the giant heart like you know
0:41:0610-pound hardcover books and you're like
0:41:08all right it's not exactly something
0:41:09like take on the train for like what
0:41:11yeah I've got the absolute watch men and
0:41:13it's the same thing is it's great but
0:41:15it's it in Norma's the coffee table 10
0:41:17ya light light on the caption balancing
0:41:19on your chest and wake up just before it
0:41:21kills you when you fall it falls on your
0:41:23face
0:41:23actually yes that's basically it so what
0:41:27else what else to say about ocean at the
0:41:29end of the lane before we move on you
0:41:30have any any other the scene we didn't
0:41:32touch upon which i really like to my
0:41:33cousin actually was saying it was his
0:41:35favorite teen was the scene where they
0:41:37bring the ocean to him and he goes into
0:41:40the illusion right yeah that's that's
0:41:42that that's the premise of that I mean
0:41:43the story it's the title and it's the
0:41:45idea that she calls it upon our notion
0:41:48even though it's just a pond and then we
0:41:50you know we we finally see we get the
0:41:53payoff of you know that had just how
0:41:56this thing is an ocean when he's he's in
0:41:58it and he has to go in there there are
0:42:01they going to put a minute to protect
0:42:03him
0:42:04yeah yeah yeah yeah and he but he can
0:42:07see and he knows everything in the
0:42:10universe right yeah but if he was going
0:42:12to stay there
0:42:14the longer he would stay there the more
0:42:16diffuse he would become until he was no
0:42:18longer a person or being or a an
0:42:21intelligence who just be spread out
0:42:24yeah you can you can't know everything
0:42:25in the universe without just being the
0:42:27universe so you have to you'll you'll
0:42:30you know you like a little alka-seltzer
0:42:32pillage could get out of there is really
0:42:34just dissolve away and that and then of
0:42:38course that's what at what happens when
0:42:39a lady is you know she has to go off i
0:42:42like to that the the family came from
0:42:44across the ocean to the old country
0:42:48yeah so that that's that that that's a
0:42:50nice bit of mythology that if the ocean
0:42:53is essentially the universe that they
0:42:56are from somewhere else and I you know I
0:42:59without there's a lot of that just now
0:43:01touches where it's not overbearing and
0:43:03it's not full of detailed you know well
0:43:07we came from this place and all that
0:43:08it's just like they're from somewhere
0:43:10else you get it but if anybody needs any
0:43:13more than that
0:43:14what's wrong what's funny to me is that
0:43:15there's you know we're talking about
0:43:17your practice i can go and there's the
0:43:18old mrs. hemp stock character is very
0:43:21reminiscent to me of so there's there's
0:43:24a series of terry pratchett about these
0:43:27witches including a Granny Weatherwax
0:43:28was like the oldest of old witches and
0:43:31like there's not there's some there's
0:43:32something there with those two
0:43:33characters in some ways they're very
0:43:35similar very built from the same mold
0:43:37these like the wise old women who are
0:43:39kinda kinda Reverend at the same time
0:43:42kinda catchy but like you know clearly
0:43:44incredibly powerful and I think that's
0:43:48that there's interesting something in
0:43:49there and also the fact that you know so
0:43:52many of the characters someone mentioned
0:43:55so many it i think it's one of the
0:43:56blurbs here I thought that was
0:43:58interesting is someone comments and all
0:44:00thinking all the women are brilliant and
0:44:01I was like this is interesting that this
0:44:02is this is a book that that very much
0:44:04revolves around female characters
0:44:06despite the the antagonist being a boy
0:44:08but female characters certainly make up
0:44:12the ball I mean the only other male
0:44:14characters i can think of are the father
0:44:15and the Minor Roger yeah and yeah he
0:44:18doesn't last very long new but yeah and
0:44:22even the father who spends most of the
0:44:24book being sort of a pond of Ursula
0:44:26Monkton right so that's you know that's
0:44:28an element to he asks the narrator asks
0:44:31them about the about the women are made
0:44:34about the men are there are there men
0:44:36around there like why would we yes yes
0:44:38why we need them
0:44:39Willingham sometimes but they go away
0:44:41again we only need men to make more men
0:44:44yeah yeah I was there why would we want
0:44:47to do that and get point it know it
0:44:54struck me reading the acknowledgments we
0:44:56talked about how he wrote it and he goes
0:45:00into how each night he would read it
0:45:02aloud in bed to his wife and he he
0:45:06learned and discovered more about the
0:45:08words while he was reading them aloud
0:45:10and that had never happened to him
0:45:12before
0:45:12and I think that really comes through
0:45:14that's that's part of why it just sound
0:45:17you know it's yeah and I mean I do that
0:45:21all the time as a playwright because i'm
0:45:23writing for things to be spoken aloud
0:45:25and so it was really neat to see how
0:45:30this kind of shifted because it does
0:45:32feel different to me from some of his
0:45:34other novels and I don't know if that's
0:45:36it or if it's the just that the narrator
0:45:38is supposed to be a child but he's
0:45:41written from children's point of views
0:45:42before so that area is not child though
0:45:44the narrator is an adult for calling
0:45:46being right right right not like the
0:45:49same next write the same i don't know I
0:45:51i read a few chapters of one of my
0:45:53novels while we were my wife and I were
0:45:56driving back from LA to San Francisco
0:45:57and the car radio was broken and she had
0:46:00been reading this novel written so I
0:46:02just was reading chap the next chapters
0:46:04boy was that and I mean honestly time
0:46:09it's a humbling experience
0:46:10what an incredible thing to do because
0:46:13all of your weaknesses are laid bare
0:46:16when you read 11 I I once tried to
0:46:19record an audio book of one of my novels
0:46:21and like could not record the first
0:46:23chapter because i kept changing like no
0:46:25got that sounds terrible have to change
0:46:26that like and then you get to the point
0:46:28where it's like all right
0:46:29even this is gonna take a ton of editing
0:46:31oh I've gotta like go through read it
0:46:33all out change everything then go get
0:46:35back and reread it and recorded but then
0:46:37I'm probably just gonna find more stuff
0:46:38that i need to change but it does your
0:46:40words take on a totally different
0:46:41character when they're spoken aloud like
0:46:43the hay singh and that you mean you know
0:46:46this but like you know the pacing in the
0:46:47and where you take poz with them on the
0:46:49rhythm yeah and all this the sound
0:46:52yeah well one of the things I love i'll
0:46:54find a link to this for the show notes
0:46:56because it's it is a lot of fun to read
0:46:58Elmore Leonard has these ten rules of
0:47:00writing and I don't have them memorized
0:47:03but they're fantastic and there he is
0:47:06right i mean they work their one of them
0:47:09is you know nobody expressed relates
0:47:12they said just say I know I know he's
0:47:14got the central I've heard that one you
0:47:16know and they didn't say it explicitly
0:47:19they just said it
0:47:21you don't need your adverbs let the
0:47:23adverbs go you know and then when you
0:47:25need one
0:47:26it's there and it's effective because he
0:47:29does he use adverbs every now and then
0:47:31just not very much and it really helps
0:47:35with that rhythm and it really helps
0:47:36with you know because a lot of the
0:47:38things we add in to sound smart when
0:47:41we're writing he would never say out
0:47:43loud you know and and when you strip all
0:47:46those things away suddenly have
0:47:47something that just it sounds real one
0:47:51of the things that bugs me in reading
0:47:55dialog is when people address each other
0:47:58by names a lot and then like that always
0:48:02sounds fake to me yesterday and yes
0:48:04exactly convenient
0:48:05I know what yes Jason Jason I understand
0:48:08what you're saying Jason but Jason's I
0:48:09don't think you're fully thinking this
0:48:10through Jason I don't think i am and it
0:48:14feels weird for me just like I'm saying
0:48:16guy but like which is interesting when
0:48:18applied to this book where we have a
0:48:20character who never gets named right
0:48:22like that's kind of on the other end of
0:48:23the spectrum but it works right like
0:48:25it's at the hem stocks get named the ham
0:48:28stock Sanderson to get named the opal
0:48:30miner the father insisted the mother
0:48:32nobody else is only half sister doesn't
0:48:35have a name and it does she
0:48:36yeah not that's not even occur to me
0:48:38until writer that's amazing yeah like
0:48:40that singular way it doesn't it's not it
0:48:42doesn't bother me registers a lot of
0:48:44books in which you would be like what
0:48:46the heck is this guy's name already but
0:48:47like you know I haven't seen that that
0:48:50so effectively pulled off since fight
0:48:52club so the ocean at the end of the lane
0:48:55has already been optioned by Tom Hanks's
0:48:58production company play tone and then
0:49:00he'll make a great little boy
0:49:02yeah that's right to be great now the v
0:49:04well Tom Hanks's company which which
0:49:06obviously was one of the co-producers of
0:49:08like band of brothers and from the earth
0:49:12to the moon and they're making they're
0:49:14the ones who are making American Gods is
0:49:16an HBO series
0:49:17mhm and then they are also doing
0:49:21apparently for a feature a option to
0:49:24this so that's why i think a
0:49:26pre-existing relationship there I the
0:49:29the less the new story I've got on this
0:49:31is from februari so obviously there you
0:49:34know there's there's more purple an
0:49:35introduction and the options it's
0:49:37interesting options don't always mean
0:49:39that
0:49:39always filigree lights but that's
0:49:41interesting that the dead but that's
0:49:44where it is and yet you know again 200
0:49:47less than 200 pages
0:49:48this is the kind of story that you do
0:49:50want to make a movie out of because you
0:49:52don't have to drop you know seventy
0:49:55percent of it in order to get online and
0:49:57Game of Thrones or flipping through the
0:49:59pages really fast like a harry potter
0:50:01book where it's like now just supposed
0:50:03to say then over here you know I've
0:50:04argued for years the that a short story
0:50:06makes a better movie than a novel right
0:50:08because a novel is kind of it and short
0:50:10story every word has to count movies are
0:50:13short stories you're exactly stories TV
0:50:15shows and movies TV shows novels example
0:50:17comic books
0:50:18yeah yeah movies are short stories and
0:50:21so adapting short stories are in this
0:50:23case it's a short novel makes a lot of
0:50:25sense and he's got another let and knew
0:50:28not the lie T and it's novel ish it's
0:50:32establish a novel is it novel is it new
0:50:36was their novelty little think there was
0:50:38a novelty of it yeah course it's novel
0:50:40ask its novel ask excellent well before
0:50:44before we go I want to ask you gentlemen
0:50:46the musical question that's not actually
0:50:49musical but i like to ask and whenever
0:50:51we talk about books which is what are
0:50:53you reading i'm kind of curious what
0:50:55other you look what are you reading
0:50:59oh yeah we should get lex friedman to do
0:51:00a jingle for what are you reading he
0:51:02would totally do that then we could play
0:51:04it because it would be we would want to
0:51:06listen to it but he would do it for us
0:51:08just imagine your head with nobody has
0:51:10to do it because then we'll have to play
0:51:12it
0:51:12I personal various it's it's nice
0:51:15because we read lots of things we did
0:51:16this was a short book i'm sure there Dan
0:51:18even mentioned that he had been reading
0:51:20another book before he started reading
0:51:22the ocean available and i started
0:51:23reading another book directly after
0:51:25finishing the ocean and you just tearing
0:51:27it up on vacation i tell you i'd like
0:51:29that especially when there's no internet
0:51:31i read like crazy
0:51:32yeah that's book it's booked this my
0:51:34family my family so we have this this my
0:51:37uncle's got this place in the finger
0:51:39lakes and there's no internet there in
0:51:40the very little cell signal it makes up
0:51:42made of it is haha my family which I
0:51:46mean is primarily made up of of
0:51:49librarians and a lot of teachers and we
0:51:52sit around and
0:51:53read a lot and my my cousin's husband
0:51:55once commented after like walking into a
0:51:57room with like six people reading books
0:51:59like man you must really drive your
0:52:00neighbors crazy with that sound of
0:52:01flipping pages then you can I come with
0:52:05you to finger like sometimes like the
0:52:06pacification it's pretty awesome but I'm
0:52:08not gonna lie it's great my god i love
0:52:11it's very quiet and then yeah so I'm so
0:52:14i finished you've been reading before
0:52:16that I finish the second book in been
0:52:18Aaron bitches rivers of London's here's
0:52:22your urban fantasy 7 london i was gonna
0:52:23drop his neighbor yes I read so I read
0:52:26the rivers of London which i think is
0:52:27marketed in the u.s. under a midnight
0:52:29riot which is kind of a not as good
0:52:31title in my opinion but I read the
0:52:33second book which is called moon over
0:52:34soho which I liked
0:52:36I like those books they're they're not
0:52:38they're not quite my favorite urban
0:52:39fantasy book remains the guy carries
0:52:41Felix caster series which is awesome and
0:52:44this is this is fun but like doesn't
0:52:46quite get up there for me i had been
0:52:47part of the Felix caster what makes
0:52:48those whose greatest they're basically
0:52:50such a tone perfect noir set in London
0:52:53acceptance imagine Philip Marlowe were
0:52:55an exorcist in London look it's just
0:52:57it's brilliant it's incredibly well done
0:52:59but these are still fun and they're kind
0:53:02of they deal with a young man who is a
0:53:06police constable and in his first book
0:53:08in the first book he encounters a ghost
0:53:10and then somehow gets recruited to work
0:53:13under the last sort of remaining wizard
0:53:16who works for the Metropolitan Police
0:53:18who is like a you know
0:53:19Detective Chief Inspector and so he's an
0:53:22apprentice wizard as everybody is also a
0:53:24police constable that's fun and then I
0:53:28picked up before i left about a
0:53:30paperback which had been a while I
0:53:31realized end up on a paperback book and
0:53:33so long that my ebooks have become my
0:53:34paperbacks I'll still buy occasionally
0:53:37books in hardcover like I bought the
0:53:38neil gaiman book hardcover but if I want
0:53:40some this kinda like the quick disposal
0:53:41read like i usually buy books but about
0:53:43a the back of the latest book in the in
0:53:46nyomi Novak's Temeraire series my book
0:53:49one of that
0:53:50yeah my simple the latest one is called
0:53:52crucible of gold about a dragon's
0:53:55halfway to two-thirds of the way through
0:53:56it probably I I read everything else in
0:53:59the series but it's been many years
0:53:59since i read the last one so i kind of
0:54:02like but it's it's it's pretty good in
0:54:04terms of the ability to sort of pick
0:54:06it up even years later and be like oh
0:54:08yeah I kind of remember who the main
0:54:10characters this are in she's quite a
0:54:12good writer and she does a great job of
0:54:13capturing that sort of the other CS
0:54:15forester Patrick O'Brien like elements
0:54:19of the the swashbuckling nautical tales
0:54:21but like she goes interesting places
0:54:23with those books which I didn't think
0:54:24that she would both quote-unquote
0:54:27literally in terms of like they spend a
0:54:29lot of time sort of globe-trotting as
0:54:31well as they could have been just sort
0:54:34of adventure fun series but she actually
0:54:35gets into some issues that i thought
0:54:37were really interesting in terms of like
0:54:38well these dragons are sentient em are
0:54:41they basically slaves like what's the
0:54:43deal with that so it gets a little more
0:54:46little more depth than I thought it
0:54:48would originally and so this is like the
0:54:50sixth book in the series i think the
0:54:51seventh one is coming out pretty soon so
0:54:54those are fun enjoy them all right well
0:54:56I've got the first one on my candle it's
0:54:58ready to go i had enough people
0:55:00recommended that i had to buy it
0:55:01David what a what have you been reading
0:55:03anything interesting
0:55:04well I've been reading been doing
0:55:07research for something that involves
0:55:09magic and magicians
0:55:11so what I'm not reading fiction reading
0:55:14this book called slights of mind which I
0:55:18know Lex Friedman has red actually
0:55:19because we've talked about it and it's
0:55:21about it's not just an optical illusion
0:55:24but it's how illusions work and how our
0:55:27minds try to rationalize them and
0:55:30especially how we know that a magic
0:55:35trick is a trick you know we know we're
0:55:37being distracted and yet we still go for
0:55:39it
0:55:40we still accept it why and so it's
0:55:42really interesting and it's it talks
0:55:44with Penn & Teller a lot and a couple of
0:55:46other magicians and pickpockets and so
0:55:48it's really fascinating research then on
0:55:52the fiction side I've got this book
0:55:55called summer and bird by Catherine
0:55:58Catmull which my friend who just read
0:56:02ocean as well he said if you really like
0:56:04the last two chapters of that
0:56:06try reading a book that's all that right
0:56:08oh my god you know it's a little more
0:56:11poetic it's a little more fantasy
0:56:13oriented than this necessarily but he
0:56:18claims it's very much in line
0:56:20that so I'm giving it a try and then
0:56:22I've got the last policeman by Ben
0:56:25winters sitting on my kindle which I i
0:56:29think it one mystery award actually but
0:56:33it's about a cop in it it's a
0:56:36pre-apocalyptic story where they all
0:56:39yeah there's like this this asteroid
0:56:42coming that they know is going to hit
0:56:44the earth and destroy it and so all
0:56:46these people have you know quit their
0:56:48jobs and they're going off to do
0:56:50whatever they want in the last few
0:56:51months before it hits and there's a
0:56:54murder and this is his chance to step up
0:56:57and be a policeman to be a real
0:56:59detective instead of just a policeman so
0:57:00he goes and tries to solve this murder
0:57:02and it's the first of a trilogy and the
0:57:05second one just came out apparently and
0:57:08so again I've had you know like five or
0:57:10six people including scott McNulty hated
0:57:13the first one was very good and I was
0:57:17like all right i'll give it a try i read
0:57:19accelerometer by charles stross which I
0:57:22really liked and charles stross is funny
0:57:24because some of his stuff i really like
0:57:26and some of the stuff leaves me kinda
0:57:27cold his his halting state series that
0:57:32set in the near future in Scotland an
0:57:34independent Scotland as part of the EU
0:57:36they're fine they don't really thrill me
0:57:40I like Saturn's children which is his
0:57:42wild sex pot takes a grand tour of the
0:57:45solar system novel that was nominated
0:57:47for Hugo accelerant oh I really liked it
0:57:50so it's a little bit older
0:57:51that's one of his more well-regarded
0:57:54like that sort of one of his flagship
0:57:55novel yeah it's really good i guess
0:57:58published 2006 it does feel a little bit
0:58:01the first few chapters he's doing a lot
0:58:03of jargon that is recognizable uh that
0:58:07that is cultural references and now
0:58:09they're a little bit dated there seven
0:58:11years dated uh but but as you might have
0:58:14set it as you might guess from the title
0:58:16things accelerate rapidly and you leave
0:58:20the the weakest chapters that are set in
0:58:23the near very near future behind and it
0:58:26gets increasingly weird as it goes and
0:58:29it tries to portray in a way that vernor
0:58:31vinge e and a bunch of other writers
0:58:32who've tried to
0:58:33about the singularity when when
0:58:35acceleration of human growth is a
0:58:41exponential and it's like you could be
0:58:43humans won't even be able to understand
0:58:44it will be things will be advancing so
0:58:46fast and and so if you can portray that
0:58:48you're like all right i mean like one of
0:58:50my favorite veggie novels he basically
0:58:52just everybody ahead in time a hundred
0:58:53years and there's nobody left in my cup
0:58:55the singularity must happen to well and
0:58:58then continue on right so in
0:59:00acceleration dos tres actually like
0:59:02shows you tries to show you what the
0:59:04singularity would be like if you're a
0:59:05person who was living through it and I
0:59:08think he does a pretty good job it's not
0:59:10I mean it's not perfect because it's a
0:59:12very difficult concept he does have a
0:59:14little bit of a plot to string you along
0:59:15as well it does a lot of the same things
0:59:18that I I sort of feel like Kim Stanley
0:59:19Robinson was trying to do in his Hugo
0:59:24nominated 2312 but what I really liked
0:59:29about a XL Rondo and people i know who
0:59:32listened to our Hugo cast know that I
0:59:33didn't really like 2312 I don't like
0:59:35accelerometer did all sorts of things
0:59:37that that Kim Stanley Robinson just
0:59:39failed to do with 2312 that for a guy
0:59:41who gets tagged a lot of times as being
0:59:43a strong as being a guy who's a you know
0:59:46tech guy and he's more interested in a
0:59:48lot of the technology stuff than the
0:59:50than the people i think that's one of
0:59:52the I i think that might be a knock on
0:59:55him is that is that he doesn't always
0:59:56have these his character healing Karen
0:59:56have these his character healing Karen
1:00:00that's right but and yet in Excel Rondo
1:00:02like people are people in the future and
1:00:06they have passions and they have loves
1:00:08and there's there's even in these women
1:00:11there is a scenic accelerometer where
1:00:13there's an entire culture that is
1:00:15running in a in a virtual reality
1:00:16simulation on a little chip that's in a
1:00:19spaceship the size of a soda can that's
1:00:21half way to Alpha Centauri on a giant
1:00:23solar sail and yet there is still petty
1:00:26human jealousy and misunderstandings and
1:00:29all sorts of things happening in the
1:00:30virtual reality in the soda-can because
1:00:33people are people and i like that that
1:00:35he you can you can talk about the future
1:00:37and completely indescribable social
1:00:39change and technological change and
1:00:42still have a novel with a real beating
1:00:44human heart which accelerometer I think
1:00:46house so I liked it and it's it is weird
1:00:49but but I think good weird so I like
1:00:52that and then the other one I would
1:00:53mention is i'm reading roger ebert's
1:00:56memoir life itself
1:00:58he is a good he is a really good writer
1:01:01speaking of people who are good writers
1:01:02and a lot of that was in blog form and
1:01:06various points on his site and but
1:01:08there's also a lot of original material
1:01:09and it's all put together it's not like
1:01:12a collection of blog post is written in
1:01:13chapters about his life and it's
1:01:16fascinating because it even as just a
1:01:18portrait of a an American from the
1:01:22Midwest in the middle you know from the
1:01:24middle of the 20th century and looking
1:01:27at that and then looking at sort of the
1:01:29height of newspaper journalism and I
1:01:33it's a fascinating read by a guy who is
1:01:35really you know a really good writer and
1:01:37you know it's funny we talk about a lot
1:01:40of books on this podcast the thing that
1:01:43strikes me more than anything else
1:01:44within the characters more than the
1:01:45story more than the plots is if you get
1:01:47somebody who can write who like has a
1:01:50has a great style and tone I'll follow
1:01:53them almost anywhere because those
1:01:54people are not that easy to find
1:01:57yeah we were saying sometimes you follow
1:01:59along with a writer because it'll be
1:02:01like you like two plots you like their
1:02:03characters you like their sense of humor
1:02:05and then there are those writers that
1:02:06you think they just got it and I Roger
1:02:09Ebert of all you know people we think of
1:02:11him as the two thumbs up you know movie
1:02:13critic
1:02:13he is such a great writer and in some
1:02:16ways I think we didn't realize it until
1:02:18or most people didn't realize it until
1:02:20he started blogging after he lost his
1:02:21voice anyway great fun and that's why
1:02:25when we were in the Midwest we went to
1:02:26steak and shake because inside it must
1:02:28be right and I'm California I've never
1:02:30been to a snake and check before but we
1:02:31went because of roger ebert so there
1:02:33don't ya
1:02:35now we have a burger city that's sitting
1:02:37on my kindle right now and drank it's
1:02:39good it's good i mean i read it i was
1:02:41reading bits because you can just sort
1:02:42of read a few chapters and co-read novel
1:02:44and then come back and read a few more
1:02:45chapters and it's enjoyable
1:02:48alright I think we got to the end at to
1:02:51the ocean at the end of the lane at the
1:02:52pot and the podcast have probably been
1:02:56here before so many times do that I'm
1:03:00not cast about but we don't remember it
1:03:03yeah oh no it's good it's a book which
1:03:06will find a book
1:03:08yeah in the ocean at the end of the lane
1:03:11at the end of the pot the Monster at the
1:03:12End of the whole monster line the vast
1:03:14ocean at the end of the lane at the end
1:03:16of it I guess I'm very confused man
1:03:19alright well this was fun and I guess I
1:03:20guess we had to summarize that we would
1:03:22say we let we really liked it perhaps
1:03:24even loved neil gaiman the ocean at the
1:03:26end of the lane got a lot of hype he's a
1:03:28very well-known author guess what
1:03:30it's good he's a good writer that's why
1:03:32he's well known that because the hype
1:03:34not because of marketing it's because
1:03:35these are really good at it right
1:03:38that's about right you yet in a nutshell
1:03:40alright excellent well that's it for
1:03:44this edition of the uncomfortable and I
1:03:48want to thank my guests my my two guests
1:03:50who excellently went through neil gaiman
1:03:52and the ocean at the end of the lane Dan
1:03:55Morgan thank you as always
1:03:56always a pleasure to actually read
1:03:59something beyond a podcast about it it's
1:04:00nice it's nice to read books isn't it it
1:04:02is great it is especially on vacation
1:04:05where ya been through all over that
1:04:07finger lakes I'm coming and going back
1:04:09and going back on vacation next week and
1:04:12is that I wish you have in your mind
1:04:15David lower thank you for being him
1:04:18thank you always a pleasure always a
1:04:20pleasure very nice to have you here and
1:04:22thank you everybody out there in podcast
1:04:25land for listening to us talk about
1:04:26books and be silly at the same time
1:04:28that's pretty much the Charter the
1:04:30uncomfortable so thank you for listening
1:04:31and until next time I remain Jason sell
1:04:35your post
1:04:36goodbye