0:00:00I'm never buying a car ever again I bet
0:00:02that's not true that's like me saying
0:00:04I'm perfectly happy with my computer
0:00:05setup I'm never changing anything I mean
0:00:10come on we know each other and we know
0:00:12ourselves entirely accurate well done
0:00:17sir
0:00:19we're traveling and well two thirds of
0:00:23us are traveling over the next three or
0:00:25four weeks and as it turns out in as
0:00:29with all things we accidentally
0:00:31scheduled our vacations in a not
0:00:33terribly convenient way basically in
0:00:35sequence yeah basically we are we are
0:00:38doing vacationing in serial and not
0:00:40parallel yeah this is a this is a single
0:00:42core single threaded vacation operation
0:00:44here at the XML tech podcast and so
0:00:46we're going to have to squeeze in like
0:00:4817 weeks worth of shows in the span of
0:00:51like three weeks not literally of course
0:00:52but that's what it feels like and
0:00:54because of Gary the privacy clown I'm
0:00:56not gonna disclose any more than that
0:00:58but suffice to say yeah we did not plan
0:01:00well whoops it's almost like Adobe wrote
0:01:03our schedule figure that well there's
0:01:07nothing Adobe writes is parallel hey Oh
0:01:09we'll be here all week except not really
0:01:11cuz it's like I just said we're going on
0:01:14vacation anyway how are you guys totally
0:01:17fucked how's the dog John hanging in
0:01:21there doing dog things how much of your
0:01:24house remains both intact and not
0:01:26covered in pee oh it's entirely covered
0:01:29in pee it goes for the soft items a
0:01:34little bit of chewing on the stairs and
0:01:38cabinets and furniture but really mostly
0:01:41goes for the toilet paper and stuff like
0:01:43that
0:01:43high-value targets soft targets you
0:01:47shred that toilet paper make a giant
0:01:48mess in a matter of seconds you almost
0:01:51want to take some like pictures or video
0:01:53but then you do have to actually clean
0:01:54up and encourage the dog to do this but
0:01:56it is kind of cute it's the thing that
0:01:59puppies have puppies and babies their
0:02:01cuteness is their defense that's
0:02:03absolutely accurate all right let's
0:02:05start with some follow-up and it starts
0:02:07with Andrew Burwell who writes in to say
0:02:10I found this website to be a
0:02:12particularly good
0:02:13for best TV settings and this is our
0:02:16Tings comm slash TV we'll put a link in
0:02:19the show notes they use calibration
0:02:21tools on the TV and adjust each brand
0:02:23and model of TV to its best settings
0:02:25possible given that they're all
0:02:26manufactured the same way you could
0:02:27expect reasonable calibration using this
0:02:28method they give you screenshots of your
0:02:30particular TV menus with the settings
0:02:32you need to use I have an ancient TV
0:02:34that is 1080 but it is ancient and I
0:02:38have never bothered I'm sorry Todd and
0:02:39John I've never bothered setting it up
0:02:41properly and I need to dig into this
0:02:44website and see if they have settings
0:02:46from ITV because I've never cared enough
0:02:49to really make it work as we discussed
0:02:50last episode and this sounds pretty
0:02:53great that I need to check this out yeah
0:02:55actually so after last episode and after
0:02:57John scolded me into you know thinking I
0:03:00needed to calibrate my TV the first
0:03:02thing I did was not to download an app
0:03:04to try to do it the first thing I did
0:03:05was search the web for other people's
0:03:07calibration settings for this TV because
0:03:09it's a current model TV and there's a
0:03:11lot of nerds out there who would do this
0:03:13kind of stuff and publish their results
0:03:14this was the first thing that came up
0:03:16and so a few hours before the whole
0:03:19world's are telling me to go to this
0:03:20site I had actually already done it and
0:03:22had tried their settings with very minor
0:03:25modifications all I did was make it a
0:03:27little bit brighter and make it slightly
0:03:29closer to neutral white balance and it's
0:03:32great and so I haven't changed it since
0:03:34it's been wonderful so that's better
0:03:36than nothing but I would still encourage
0:03:39people to actually use the calibration
0:03:40app because they say oh yeah all TV's
0:03:42they're all the same like you know
0:03:43there's not there's no variance in
0:03:45manufacturing or age or anything like
0:03:48it's it's just not true like this will
0:03:49get you in the ballpark to actually find
0:03:51out if your TV's kalbarri you have to go
0:03:53through calibration of some kind and
0:03:55these probably get really really close
0:03:57right but even just based on like how
0:04:00bright your room is and where the
0:04:02windows are and if you mostly watch TV
0:04:03during the day or the night would you
0:04:04want to have one sort of in the middle
0:04:06setting or have a daytime and a
0:04:08nighttime setting and by the way look at
0:04:10this website is way better than things
0:04:11used to be when I calibrate it when I
0:04:13last calibrated my TV was still more of
0:04:15the Wild West this is so nice with like
0:04:17the pictures of the menus and easy to
0:04:19find your TV you don't have to go
0:04:21through forums and download these text
0:04:22files with the listings of all the
0:04:24settings and stuff like that but looking
0:04:25at the settings for Markowski
0:04:27be on this website it shows the TV's
0:04:29still suck where it's like well if you
0:04:32put this setting on these settings go
0:04:34from a menu to a slider and you can't
0:04:36use this setting with that thing and the
0:04:38again the words don't make any sense in
0:04:40the menus and I don't understand why
0:04:43they have like these Smart TVs have
0:04:45little computers in there right there
0:04:47running entire operating systems and yet
0:04:48the settings are all like well only the
0:04:50setting called PC can have these
0:04:51settings and when you put on game mode
0:04:53only these things are available and like
0:04:55I mean sometimes it makes sense where
0:04:57they're turning things off but this
0:04:59should all be downloadable standardized
0:05:02like even just not across all
0:05:05manufacturers obviously but just like
0:05:06there shouldn't be no dumb limitations
0:05:08they don't like only the PC input can
0:05:10support a particular color space and
0:05:11stuff like that
0:05:12nothing should have weird code words
0:05:14everything should be in like normal tech
0:05:17terms not branding terms shouldn't be
0:05:20like warm to warm size one doesn't help
0:05:24anybody and the weird limitations of
0:05:26like Oh only in the ISF expert mode can
0:05:28you change this setting but if you did
0:05:30the standard setting these three things
0:05:31aren't available but in this one like
0:05:32you don't get to pick the gamma it's
0:05:34like just just make them all the same
0:05:35and look and and you only have like five
0:05:37different settings like oh I've used of
0:05:38all my settings and actually sometimes
0:05:40you only get one setting that lets you
0:05:41change everything but that one setting
0:05:42doesn't let you enable game mode it's
0:05:44like there should be an unlimited number
0:05:46of settings it's not like a game where
0:05:48you're trying to make it so they can
0:05:50only have to save slots that make the
0:05:51game art or like how is it that we have
0:05:53these complete webOS operating system on
0:05:55there and yet you still only have you
0:05:57know five sets of settings and they all
0:05:59and they're all slightly different from
0:06:00each other so well let me provide a
0:06:02counterpoint here have you ever gone to
0:06:04a one of these places like chopped it's
0:06:06like a basically like a salad assembly
0:06:08thing like it's like Subway for salads
0:06:10mm-hmm I have not
0:06:12I knew Casey would have I knew Troy what
0:06:14I've never I've never heard of this
0:06:17thing okay so basically so when I go to
0:06:19a place like this there you know you can
0:06:22you can do the thing where you just
0:06:24create your own salad from you know bare
0:06:27parts or you can have like one of the
0:06:30preset salads that's on the wall if the
0:06:33only option was here is an array of 40
0:06:37different ingredients and you tell me
0:06:38what kind of salad you want and I make a
0:06:40if I went to that restaurant I I would
0:06:44have no idea what to make I would make a
0:06:45crap salad it would just be terrible it
0:06:47would be bland or uncreated or would
0:06:49have weird ratios or whatever else I
0:06:51always order off the presets and if and
0:06:54I might adjust things slightly within
0:06:56one of the presets I like some guidance
0:06:58because I am NOT a salad power user and
0:07:01so I don't really like I need some
0:07:03starting points some presets asking for
0:07:07although I'm not asking for they're not
0:07:08three presets I'm asking for there could
0:07:10be like say there's like a thousand
0:07:11things you can change in the TV but I
0:07:12all means ship seventeen presets in fact
0:07:14I would like an app store for presets
0:07:16even like where these websites wouldn't
0:07:18have to exist you can just but the whole
0:07:20point is if you decide hey I want to
0:07:22make a new setting called you know
0:07:23Marcos setting there should be no
0:07:26limitations like up sorry you only get
0:07:27five settings and they're the presets
0:07:29and if you change one of them then you
0:07:30change one of the presets the only way
0:07:31to get it back as a factory default
0:07:32should be like new thing and you could
0:07:34start like would you like this new
0:07:35setting to start from one of the
0:07:36standard ones sure start from the
0:07:38whatever setting and then when you go in
0:07:39there all thousand switches should be
0:07:41available to you preset to whatever they
0:07:43were from the setting you inherit from
0:07:45there should be no limitations like oh
0:07:46you have to name his input capital T and
0:07:48capital C and it's the only one that can
0:07:50show the entire you know this is the old
0:07:52world like the only one that doesn't do
0:07:54overscan you have to call the input PC
0:07:56and you only get one of those sorry and
0:07:58it has to be this particular input or
0:07:59whatever right they should be uniform
0:08:02and you should be able to make as many
0:08:04new ones as you want and you shouldn't
0:08:06lose the presets and in fact it's such
0:08:09an easy opportunity to make presets
0:08:11something like downloadable sinkable
0:08:13shareable with friends like they should
0:08:15cultivate these forums say if someone
0:08:16wants to run some fancy calibration app
0:08:18and make a branded setting and make it
0:08:20downloadable you should be able to go to
0:08:22that URL and pull down the settings for
0:08:23whatever there should be no dumb
0:08:24arbitrary limitations that don't make
0:08:26any sense that's what I'm saying not
0:08:28that you should have presets well but I
0:08:30I respect the idea of of what is exposed
0:08:34most of the time to me the user is
0:08:37here's some presets and if you go into
0:08:39them there are a few not even a lot
0:08:41there are a few things you can tweak
0:08:43under each one and then only in the
0:08:45expert ones buried like three levels
0:08:47deep even within those are all the
0:08:50different options that you want but I
0:08:51actually don't want most of me because I
0:08:54know that most of those options I
0:08:55shouldn't touch those cuz hey I don't
0:08:58you really care and be anything I would
0:09:00adjust there I would probably be making
0:09:02things worse because I don't know I'm
0:09:03doing you can hide them under to vance
0:09:05off and just like to do an app
0:09:06preferences you don't expose all the
0:09:07perfect it's like you have nitpicky
0:09:08settings like they're not not there it's
0:09:10just that you don't see them unless you
0:09:11really dig for them right so you put the
0:09:13top and really honestly the things the
0:09:15number of things you need to adjust on
0:09:16television
0:09:16aside from turning off stuff which is
0:09:19kind of annoying that you would have to
0:09:20dig through it right I mean just look at
0:09:22the the setting preset they recommend
0:09:24it's like every single feature this
0:09:25television has off off off off
0:09:27no sharpness enhancement no vibrancy no
0:09:29edge whatever no motion anything just
0:09:32off off off everything right it's
0:09:33annoying that you have to do that right
0:09:35but that aside you really just need to
0:09:38change two or three settings brightness
0:09:40contrast different color balance things
0:09:43and that's it it's not like there's a
0:09:44hundred things you can do for picture
0:09:45quality mostly you're just turning crap
0:09:46off so yeah by all means have a
0:09:49hierarchy of settings have here at the
0:09:50three or four things you probably might
0:09:51want to change and advanced picture
0:09:53advanced motion advanced whatever when
0:09:55you dig down and down if you want to
0:09:57make it higher even though things that's
0:09:58fine but I don't like it when options
0:10:00aren't available to you or like well in
0:10:02this mode you get three settings for
0:10:04this thing but in this mode you get a
0:10:05slider that has you know five hundred
0:10:07settings for it why we just decided
0:10:09that's what it is you know we got a two
0:10:12other interesting pieces of feedback
0:10:13around this Malcolm Hall wrote in to
0:10:15tell us that some people have been
0:10:17buying Samsung has a product called
0:10:20smart signage which is basically a TV
0:10:22sized monitor and that's it so the idea
0:10:25is you take a monitor that's you know 40
0:10:2850 60 70 inches but it doesn't have
0:10:31anything smart in it presumably it just
0:10:33has like HDMI or or equivalent and
0:10:35nothing else there is no speakers
0:10:36there's no smartness it's just a dumb
0:10:39display and if you're hooking this up
0:10:41like a sound bar or a or a stereo system
0:10:43I mean I guess some of you could go
0:10:45crazy enough to do surround sound but
0:10:48anyway if you hook it up to some other
0:10:51external speaker system then you don't
0:10:52have to fight all the silly smartness
0:10:55which isn't exactly what you two were
0:10:56talking about because you two were just
0:10:57talking about calibrating the screen but
0:10:59but that's kind of neat and an
0:11:02additionally safecom wrote in to say
0:11:05that Samsung is also trying to do
0:11:07a frame TV which is designed to look
0:11:11like nothing at all or not a TV at all
0:11:13until you want it to be a TV and then it
0:11:16will go from like a still picture to a
0:11:18regular traditional TV and that probably
0:11:22isn't the best word picture that I've
0:11:23just painted but we'll put links to both
0:11:25these in the show notes I saw that video
0:11:27but like it's so it's hard to tell from
0:11:29video but like is it is it still like a
0:11:32light-emitting display when it didn't
0:11:34like the frame mode yeah that's entirely
0:11:36like a marketing BS because there's no
0:11:39way you wouldn't know that's a TV like
0:11:40they always put it in lighting it's like
0:11:42it looks just like the paintings like
0:11:43because they put it in like a picture
0:11:44frame like oh it's like a painting right
0:11:46but you know it's not especially if
0:11:47there's a LCD TV with terrible black
0:11:49levels like that we no way there we go
0:11:51bright sunlight shining on your wall on
0:11:53an actual painting of a sailboat next to
0:11:56like a sailboat picture on your
0:11:58television I don't know who they think
0:12:00they're fooling with that but I mean I
0:12:01guess it looks nice if you have decor
0:12:03things there's a lot of a lot of
0:12:04televisions that you buy look like you
0:12:06know whatever they look like technology
0:12:08products they look like computer
0:12:10equipment or whatever and if you don't
0:12:11want that look if you want to look more
0:12:12like a piece of furniture that some
0:12:14people do this is a good look for your
0:12:15television but no you're something to
0:12:17think that people are going to believe
0:12:18it's a painting because they will not
0:12:19because it does not look like a TV maybe
0:12:21it was color a ink that would work but
0:12:23we don't have that tech I feel like any
0:12:25any technology that tries to hide a TV
0:12:28that's solving the wrong problem like
0:12:30remember when when computers first came
0:12:32out when we were all children
0:12:34well when Casey and I were children and
0:12:35and and a lot of times our parents would
0:12:40make the computer live in some kind of
0:12:42giant cabinet that would like close with
0:12:45big door like wooden doors sometimes
0:12:47they put TVs in there too but usually
0:12:49like the computer was what was hidden in
0:12:50this in this giant wooden cabinet by the
0:12:53wall and fro and and that was like a
0:12:56certain generation like the default mode
0:12:57was to hide technology you know
0:13:00oftentimes like our parents generation
0:13:02and then now it's like well no you you
0:13:05have to use that like that that's just
0:13:07normal to see in a house it would be
0:13:09weird if you saw a house that didn't
0:13:11have a TV in it now and so I feel like
0:13:14trying to hide a TV like it's you're
0:13:17just kind of fighting a losing battle
0:13:17like you're gonna either have a really
0:13:19strange looking picture on the wall
0:13:21or you're gonna have some kind of crazy
0:13:22complex thing like one of those you know
0:13:25raising and lowering things for the TV
0:13:27slides up out of a dresser you know see
0:13:29that like that that's just doomed to
0:13:31break and fail and we it's you know
0:13:33that's that's no good either like just
0:13:35have a TV that you don't mind the look
0:13:37of and if you don't want a TV in a room
0:13:39don't put a TV in that room like
0:13:41anything else besides just trying to own
0:13:43it is is not gonna go well for you
0:13:46same deal with baldness by the way TV's
0:13:50bless you think that's an old thing
0:13:52people still totally do that in the most
0:13:54recent this old house house I recall
0:13:55they have a television that they were a
0:13:57putting over their fireplace which is
0:13:59way too high for TV and B wanted to hide
0:14:01with the set of folding doors that like
0:14:03had a painting and to raid it into them
0:14:04so when it was closed they're just like
0:14:06a painting like an actual painting or
0:14:07whatever eventually I just made use wood
0:14:09paneled doors because I guess someone
0:14:10talking about the painting idea but yes
0:14:12people still want to hide their
0:14:13televisions and I guess people don't
0:14:15like it you know like decor wise it
0:14:17doesn't look nice to have a big black
0:14:19rectangle and and I think even these
0:14:21picture frame ones to have a big monitor
0:14:23turned on too you know a picture of a
0:14:25sunset or something we just don't have
0:14:27the text it's not gonna look right
0:14:28people in the chat room are pointing me
0:14:29to color inks yes we have color ink not
0:14:31televisions you can't they don't show
0:14:33motion they did to have that hybrid one
0:14:35remember that one that was like color
0:14:36ink but also LCD for motion so it was
0:14:39like this weird and obviously didn't
0:14:41catch on eventually we could have some
0:14:43kind of display technology that does
0:14:45reflective sort of like in the off mode
0:14:47where you could put a picture on there
0:14:50that would look just like a you know a
0:14:51picture on the wall or at least it'd
0:14:52look like a poster at very least maybe
0:14:54or a very large photograph ad but that
0:14:57could also do the motion of television
0:14:58but we don't have that yet but people
0:14:59still want to hide the TVs and I totally
0:15:01agree with you Mariana I think it's it's
0:15:02ridiculous to hide your television like
0:15:05part of it is almost like you know not
0:15:08just the decor of a big black rectangle
0:15:10but also the idea that people don't want
0:15:13to think of their lives as centering
0:15:16around television like that's somehow a
0:15:18shameful thing because of all like this
0:15:20the television shaming from from I think
0:15:22of both of our childhoods of like you TV
0:15:25rots your brain and don't watch TV and
0:15:26people you know you don't want people to
0:15:28know how much television you watch but
0:15:30if you don't watch that much television
0:15:32maybe don't have a 70 inch televisions I
0:15:34mean
0:15:34like you know the the budget and
0:15:37wallspace reflected by your television
0:15:38choices are not in line with the image
0:15:40you want to project to the outside world
0:15:41like oh we don't even that only
0:15:43television we don't even watch
0:15:44television we just have the 70 inch
0:15:45rectangle here because we were forced to
0:15:47have it probably the neighbors I don't
0:15:50know anyway I never want my television
0:15:52bein and by the way those little
0:15:55cabinets where you put your computers
0:15:56one of the things that I think helps
0:15:58kill those is the fact that our
0:15:59computers are so hot now that you know
0:16:01putting them inside an enclosed cabinet
0:16:03would destroy everything no they were
0:16:04hotter than because back then they were
0:16:05CRTs yeah but like the computers
0:16:08themselves were cooler I mean some of
0:16:09them you know they didn't even have fans
0:16:10over the heatsinks for the CPUs back in
0:16:13the ya-ya series are hot too but like
0:16:17the entertainment center for television
0:16:19use to be like that to memory the
0:16:19entertainment centers were for like your
0:16:22VCR and your game consoles like those
0:16:25were entirely enclosed too maybe they
0:16:26had holes punched out in the back for
0:16:28the wires to go through and most things
0:16:29didn't get that hot like you didn't have
0:16:31you know your Xbox 360 in there as you
0:16:33know your the NES was not getting that
0:16:34hot compared to modern consoles but
0:16:36those things were not a great
0:16:38environment for electronics and today
0:16:39it's mostly worse because our DVR is
0:16:43maybe not our blu-ray players but
0:16:45certainly our game consoles are hotter
0:16:47but the TV's like bar goes are way
0:16:49cooler temperature wise than a CRT or
0:16:52our plasma or anything like that so
0:16:54those actually could go in cabinets or
0:16:56just the now they're the thickness of a
0:16:57piece of paper cabinets don't make any
0:16:59sense anymore I always love to like like
0:17:01the entertainment centers that are that
0:17:03like our parents would have that was
0:17:05mostly during the era of CRT TVs so like
0:17:08they were giant like they made the
0:17:11decision that this tremendous wouldn't
0:17:14monolith thing in the living room that
0:17:16was somehow better than just having a TV
0:17:20like that was fooling nobody yeah and it
0:17:23was and they were huge like they were
0:17:25often way bigger than the television
0:17:26like they were big enough that you could
0:17:27like shelve rows and rows of VHS tapes
0:17:29and stuff and then the other great thing
0:17:31my parents did this too they have one of
0:17:33their house right now you you would buy
0:17:35one and they're expensive like
0:17:36especially the ones that filled an
0:17:37entire wall that's a substantial piece
0:17:39of furniture if you got a nice one not
0:17:41an inexpensive piece of furniture
0:17:42because it's literally massive right and
0:17:44if you got one you were deciding how
0:17:47your television was going to be until
0:17:50you know unless you want to replace that
0:17:52huge expensive piece of furniture or you
0:17:54know unless it's built into your house
0:17:55right and so if you bought one before
0:17:57HGTV you had a four by three hole for a
0:17:59television and then you have to put a
0:18:01sixteen by nine TV in there and so you
0:18:03got shrunk down and if you bought before
0:18:04televisions got really big and you could
0:18:06just barely thick like a 40 inch HDTV in
0:18:09there now you can't get a good TV or you
0:18:12feel like hang out a big TV my parents
0:18:13have to buy based on which TV will fit
0:18:15inside their slightly dated piece of
0:18:18furniture where they fit their
0:18:19television some so with putting your
0:18:21electronics inside a box of any kind
0:18:24it's just not a particularly
0:18:25future-proof idea and it's so true my
0:18:29brother-in-law has a house bill Prime in
0:18:31the late 90s I think and he has in his
0:18:36family room our living room where ever
0:18:37he has like I guess he could call to
0:18:39built-in but basically in the wall is
0:18:41like sunk in and it's about the size of
0:18:43maybe a 40 or 50 inch TV these days and
0:18:46I'm sure left to his own devices he
0:18:48would have like a 9,000 inch monstrosity
0:18:50but because it's in a built in that's in
0:18:53his wall there's not really a lot he can
0:18:55do like to make it bigger he would have
0:18:57to cut into his wall also John you are
0:19:00officially uninvited from ever coming to
0:19:01my house because I have a TV that is not
0:19:03calibrated is it mounted above the
0:19:04fireplace probably I don't know two or
0:19:07three feet off the ceiling which is like
0:19:09a seven or eight-foot ceiling I guess
0:19:11eight-foot ceiling I have to point one
0:19:14sound I have a turntable like this is
0:19:17pretty much your hell is my family room
0:19:20and I like it quite a lot but you're
0:19:22never coming over because I don't want
0:19:23to I don't want to never hear the end of
0:19:24this we have no option so so our family
0:19:29room I wasn't trying to make this an
0:19:30actual conversation but hey here we are
0:19:32our family room and Marco can vouch for
0:19:34this it's very very wide and very
0:19:36shallow if that makes sense and so
0:19:39because of that there's no real
0:19:42convenient way to have a TV in the room
0:19:45unless you put it in the corner and like
0:19:46twist the furniture in the room till be
0:19:49in the corner but it's a very shallow
0:19:50room so the the best place for it in
0:19:54terms of room and furniture flow is
0:19:56above the fireplace and that's where it
0:19:59is but but I understand and I rec
0:20:01knives that for the optimum TV viewing
0:20:04experience that is probably not the
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0:21:51[Music]
0:21:54speaking of calibration which we were
0:21:56talking about about 45 minutes ago
0:21:57thx has a has a tune up app thx tune up
0:22:02that is I guess pretty well regarded
0:22:04it's for Android and iOS unfortunately
0:22:07not for the Apple TV however people are
0:22:10asking for calibration apps and I
0:22:12suggested this to mark oh I assume like
0:22:14oh there must be a bunch of government
0:22:15it turns out no there Apple TV is the
0:22:19the Apple TV app store is not looking
0:22:20too good if there's a good one probable
0:22:21to be I couldn't find it put it that way
0:22:23i-i think i downloaded or purchased
0:22:25every Apple TV app that has anything to
0:22:29do with calibration and they are all
0:22:30pretty terrible
0:22:32thx tune-up I used years ago and still
0:22:35out there it's not an Apple TV app which
0:22:39follows me in a couple of ways because
0:22:41like well you know what's the point like
0:22:43why why do I have to also have a you
0:22:47know phone or an iPad and then somehow a
0:22:50way to project that to the TV they're a
0:22:51chromecast or an Apple TV but if you
0:22:53have the one combination I know it works
0:22:56you have an iOS device like an iPad or
0:22:58an iPhone and you also have an Apple TV
0:23:00you run the thx tune-up app on your iOS
0:23:02device in your hand and then you airplay
0:23:05it to the TV and the reason I don't like
0:23:06that is because as far as I know airplay
0:23:09is lossy compressed over-the-air that is
0:23:12that correct to mark on you might now
0:23:13video is is lossy compressed audio is
0:23:15lossless alright so but week everybody
0:23:18here in this case and so like does you
0:23:21really want to run a calibration app
0:23:23compressed occur I mean some parts of it
0:23:24work like the you know the geometry
0:23:26stuff and the you know making sure you
0:23:28can see all the pixels and stuff like
0:23:29that but but anyway the app itself is
0:23:32actually decent it does the important
0:23:34things of saying here's a screen here's
0:23:36what it's supposed to look like in words
0:23:39adjusted until you can see all six boxes
0:23:42or until you can barely make out those
0:23:44numbered you know seven over here or but
0:23:47like they they tell you what you're
0:23:49looking for and then you can then it's
0:23:50up to you to mess with your television
0:23:52and do it it's a great way to test your
0:23:53calibration things if you download those
0:23:55settings from that website
0:23:57who knows maybe it's dead on for your TV
0:23:59run through the calibration screens and
0:24:01it would be like you should see six
0:24:02boxes you'd be like yep I see six boxes
0:24:03go to the next one
0:24:04you should see the number nine family
0:24:05visible and you shouldn't see 10 yep I
0:24:07see it go to that you'll it'll take you
0:24:0830 seconds right but if you go through
0:24:10it and it's off then you get into the
0:24:12hole it's time to actually calibrate
0:24:14your TV or make it a them in a nighttime
0:24:16setting or whatever so I was going to
0:24:19bring up in well actually you and say
0:24:21well actually why don't you use or I
0:24:22guess let me do this right well actually
0:24:24you should use the lightning digital AV
0:24:27Adapter but doesn't that use airplay
0:24:28behind
0:24:29means anyone yes doesn't doesn't have
0:24:30like little h.264 decoder encoder thing
0:24:33there and a tiny iOS device or something
0:24:35yeah panic with the whole blog post
0:24:36about him yeah yeah so obviously is not
0:24:39the ideal thing and and uh this is the
0:24:42the next bit of follow up here from John
0:24:43Duffin and a lot of people are giving us
0:24:45tips about this I figured it was maybe
0:24:47someone Twitter was saying I was saying
0:24:49Lucasfilm DVDs and blu-rays have
0:24:51calibration things on them like if you
0:24:52go to their menus like deep in the
0:24:54extras section someone was telling me
0:24:57that most Pixar blu-rays and DVDs have
0:24:59calibration apps again somewhere buried
0:25:01in there extras menu on them john Duffin
0:25:04road and tell us that if you have a Sony
0:25:06Pictures blu-ray and you type Sony on
0:25:09the title screen like seven six nine
0:25:11seven six six nine like telephone
0:25:13dialing Sony I suppose it will open the
0:25:16calibration screen which seems pretty
0:25:17sneaky cuz who the heck knows how to do
0:25:19that I should actually put it in the
0:25:20menu these are all ways to get a better
0:25:24source for calibration especially from
0:25:27like blu-ray player please that's that's
0:25:29directly connected to your television
0:25:30and is not lossy compressed h.264
0:25:33over-the-air through air play the
0:25:35quality of these calibration apps varies
0:25:38but at the very least you can do
0:25:39geometry and you know grayscale levels
0:25:42and brightness and stuff like that and
0:25:44do a reasonable job of it so there's
0:25:46really pretty no excuse for people not
0:25:48to have access to calibrations thing of
0:25:51some kind it's not you have to buy some
0:25:53expensive piece of hardware or software
0:25:55or you know do anything fancier it just
0:25:59surely everyone who's listening to this
0:26:02who has a fancy television that's worth
0:26:03calibrating has a DVD or a blu-ray or
0:26:07access to the iOS App Store to get I
0:26:09think thx turn up is free but if not you
0:26:12know it's the price of a cup of coffee
0:26:13just download it and give it a go
0:26:15counter argument the art things ratings
0:26:17are pretty good and nothing can make me
0:26:21want to boot up the ps4 and play a
0:26:23blu-ray disc somehow in that monstrosity
0:26:25and then get to the monstrosity that is
0:26:27blu-ray discs themselves and then
0:26:29navigate that and do all this when the
0:26:32are things things were good enough
0:26:34you've got an Apple TV you see HX steps
0:26:35it's fun
0:26:36calibrating your TV can be fun or you
0:26:39can just not here that is an officially
0:26:41ATP blast options
0:26:42not gonna make sure that your didn't do
0:26:44we go through this fear with the size
0:26:45that's all I care about in your TV is
0:26:47that it's not an over scan mode no wait
0:26:51wait whoa really I don't want it to be
0:26:53I've tried everything I knew how to do
0:26:55to fix it I'm not I'm not proud of this
0:26:57I sound proud I'm gonna get about the
0:27:01car buying get rid of that TV but but
0:27:04the mount that we have in our wall I
0:27:06think only support you know pristine
0:27:101080 versions of a show and then it's
0:27:11stretched to non-native res and you're
0:27:13stripping all the edges when you wash
0:27:15absolutely accurate absolutely I'm not
0:27:18proud of this I know I sound all smug
0:27:19and proud I'm not it's just I have spent
0:27:21what I consider to be an inordinate
0:27:24amount of time trying to fix this which
0:27:25is to say like five or ten minutes and
0:27:27yeah I couldn't figure it out and I was
0:27:29I just don't care enough I just don't I
0:27:31want it to be fixed it's not that I
0:27:32don't want it to be fixed I just don't
0:27:34care enough so I would invite you Joe
0:27:36down John to fix it but a you would
0:27:39never travel that far unless under
0:27:40duress and be you would hate everything
0:27:43you saw and potentially firebomb my
0:27:45house I've only Marco had purchased this
0:27:47television two years earlier because we
0:27:49ran it by now he'll be buying another
0:27:50television you know it's sitting behind
0:27:59my chair in my living room you want it
0:28:00probably weighs a ton well yeah excuse
0:28:04if you want to come pick it up you can
0:28:05have it well we'll talk about that later
0:28:07all right tell me about your small
0:28:10speaker amp Marco
0:28:12oh yeah million people ask I I mentioned
0:28:14very quickly in passing last episode
0:28:16that my preferred setup was just this
0:28:18tiny little Class D amplifier cards
0:28:21driving just two speakers without a
0:28:23subwoofer without surround anything like
0:28:25that and a million people have asked me
0:28:27since then which amp it is and the
0:28:29reason I didn't say is because it is the
0:28:31NuForce dia or dia I don't know dia and
0:28:35it's been it was discontinued like three
0:28:36years ago and and new for the entire
0:28:39company of new force was bought by this
0:28:40other company that apparently all the
0:28:43fans of new force hate and they say
0:28:45they've ruined all their products since
0:28:46then so I didn't feel comfortable
0:28:47recommending it because it's not only
0:28:50can you not get in anymore but the
0:28:51things that you can get now have pretty
0:28:52crappy reviews from people who used to
0:28:54like the old stuff
0:28:56so there is now this there's this giant
0:28:58class of small like Class D amplifiers
0:29:02and like getting into the details of
0:29:04like what like Class A and Class A B and
0:29:06all these different amplifier topologies
0:29:08are Class D basically allows you to make
0:29:12an amp very very small and low heat and
0:29:14low power and audio files don't like it
0:29:17as much as the other kinds but for the
0:29:18purposes of like you know speakers on TV
0:29:20it's totally fine and and so Class D am
0:29:24sorry there's lots of them if you search
0:29:25Amazon for a class D amp there there's a
0:29:28ton that are with roughly between one
0:29:31and four hundred dollars that are
0:29:33approximately 25 to 50 watts per channel
0:29:37and many of them support remote controls
0:29:39and so for my little new force one has a
0:29:42little generic remote and I was very
0:29:43very easily able to have the Apple TV
0:29:45learn that up and down volume controlled
0:29:48and that's it so that's what I'm using
0:29:50now if I had to buy new today I would
0:29:53probably want a little bit more power
0:29:55for driving like floor standards but if
0:29:57you're just driving bookshelves then
0:29:59those little like 20 watt ones are fine
0:30:00on Amazon and again there's a lot so
0:30:03just look for Class D am from oats and
0:30:05they're there there's a lot out there
0:30:06all right now I didn't get a chance to
0:30:09read this but Jonathan Dietz jr. writes
0:30:11in about Type C personality so can one
0:30:14of you take me through this if you don't
0:30:15mind is that like a railer personality
0:30:16that you can insert either direction
0:30:18it's a post title so he's been emailing
0:30:22back and forth with me about a USB
0:30:25type-c stuff since the show that we
0:30:27talked about it he had remember that big
0:30:28long email that he read he wrote an even
0:30:30longer email after i'm like you should
0:30:31make this blog post because there's no
0:30:33way we can even summarize a feedback
0:30:37email this complicated and you should
0:30:38just really make it a blog post like
0:30:39don't just email your you know insights
0:30:42and ideas to a single or a couple of
0:30:46people put it up on the web for
0:30:48everybody to see because then we can
0:30:49just link to it in the show notes which
0:30:50we will do and then anyone who's
0:30:52interested can read it so if you want to
0:30:53hear even more about the nitty gritty
0:30:56details of USB type-c and all the
0:31:00different alternate modes and what do
0:31:02would take to get hubs of different
0:31:03kinds of stuff take a look at this very
0:31:06long detailed post I think the most
0:31:08salient point in a couple
0:31:09people have brought this up as well is
0:31:10the idea that it's still early enough in
0:31:13us the USB 3.1 spec in the type C spec
0:31:17and all the other stuff that there
0:31:19aren't a lot of chipsets that support
0:31:22all the different protocols and are
0:31:24certified by all the standards bodies
0:31:25and so on and so forth and that most
0:31:27companies that make hubs just by like
0:31:30tips from somebody else or like a
0:31:32reference design from somebody else that
0:31:34has already done all the work to make
0:31:36sure you know the thing actually works
0:31:38and is certified according to all the
0:31:40standards bodies or whatever and they
0:31:42just package it in a box and and slap on
0:31:44a crappy power supply it's gonna break
0:31:45in six months or ever but that's what
0:31:47they do they don't they don't make the
0:31:49chips they want the chips to already be
0:31:50made and a bunch of companies are going
0:31:54to be making these types of chips for a
0:31:56us the new USB specs and they're just
0:31:58coming online now so it could be that
0:32:00you wait another year
0:32:01there could be many more options for you
0:32:04know USB type-c hubs to do fan-out on
0:32:07them and more complicated Thunderbolt
0:32:08hubs and stuff like that so we'll see
0:32:11you could also end up being like
0:32:13firewire where yeah and that'd be even
0:32:14many many years into it the only a few
0:32:16companies make a set of chips and
0:32:17everything still cost a million dollars
0:32:19it's a little steep but anyway I
0:32:21recommend the post he took the time to
0:32:24write a blog post and so now the entire
0:32:28world can share in his knowledge
0:32:30excellent Brian Ross Lee writes in to
0:32:32say are the rumored OLED iPhones going
0:32:35to have issues with image retention if
0:32:36so what measures should we take to
0:32:38prevent it the question is are they
0:32:41going to have more issues with image
0:32:43retention than LCDs do you do you know
0:32:46that your current iOS device if it has
0:32:48image retention because I can tell you
0:32:50that many iOS devices over many many
0:32:52years have had image retention issues in
0:32:54fact maybe yours does now and me telling
0:32:56you this is gonna make you look at it
0:32:57and realize I'll god I have an image
0:32:58retention on my iPad you probably do
0:33:00people don't like to think about it but
0:33:03it is there if you look for it it can
0:33:06get really bad on some devices after
0:33:08some time and other devices hardly show
0:33:10it at all I suppose if you wanted like
0:33:13ignorance is bliss so you probably
0:33:14shouldn't do this kind of like in the
0:33:15old days when you'd look for dead pixels
0:33:16but Marco has a handy webpage that will
0:33:20put a checkerboard pattern on your
0:33:22screen
0:33:22and you'll leave it there for a while
0:33:25and then you go anywhere else
0:33:27and if you can still see the
0:33:28checkerboard guess what you've got image
0:33:31retention no you don't have to be
0:33:32anywhere else it'll switch over to gray
0:33:34for you that's right you click on us
0:33:35which is the gray after you stare at it
0:33:37for a little but but the whole point is
0:33:38like to convince yourself that Marco is
0:33:40not just trolling you you just launched
0:33:41another app or go to springboard or
0:33:42whatever and you'll still see it there
0:33:45I've never owned you know if you only
0:33:48all that I have is my Apple watch right
0:33:49like that's the only thing I have that's
0:33:51an OLED I have heard that oh I have
0:33:53image retention issues and I've heard it
0:33:55talked about because it's like the
0:33:57successor to plasma like you know
0:33:59because LCD was never really the
0:34:00successor to plasma because the image
0:34:01quality was worse and now here's OLED
0:34:03with image quality that was actually
0:34:04better and the old slam against plasma
0:34:06in addition to all the heat and expense
0:34:07and power use and everything was that it
0:34:11had image retention and of course LCD
0:34:13hasn't retention as well but the all you
0:34:15have a plasma has bad image or Pena so
0:34:17all that I've heard talked about as if
0:34:19it's almost as bad as plasma and so I
0:34:22thinking that it's worse than LCD in
0:34:24terms of search engine but having a
0:34:25never owned one I have no idea guess
0:34:27marker will tell us if the men user
0:34:28burned into his OLED TV so I would
0:34:32suspect that yes
0:34:33oh let iPhones are going to have image
0:34:36retention issues the same exact way is
0:34:37the LCD iPhones at the very least you
0:34:39know I don't see if oh I've had less
0:34:41image retention issues and then LCD it
0:34:44seems like something that you know but
0:34:46you'd be hearing about instead but I
0:34:47hear the opposite that oh oh let watch
0:34:49out image retention so no matter how
0:34:51well the whoever manufactures these
0:34:53screens does surely it will have the
0:34:56same image retention on average as all
0:34:58the other iPhones now I I don't know
0:35:00from year to year device to device
0:35:03manufacturer to manufacturer how the
0:35:05image retention has varied on iOS
0:35:07devices I try not to look for it I see
0:35:10it occasionally still mostly on my iPad
0:35:12I don't know that's because it's I you
0:35:14know I use my iPad more because the
0:35:16screen is bigger and it's easier to pick
0:35:17up on these things but I think most
0:35:20people don't know that LCDs have managed
0:35:23retention on their iOS devices and so
0:35:25therefore I'll probably won't notice
0:35:26that are on there oh let's oh I know
0:35:28what measure should we take to prevent
0:35:30it don't use your device you won't
0:35:32notice any retention
0:35:33Wow I mean like what can you do like
0:35:36this
0:35:36you know what can you do to prevent like
0:35:38if you put an image on your screen and
0:35:39you leave it there for a long time but
0:35:41like that's often what we do with our
0:35:43phones is leave an image there for a
0:35:45long time whether you're reading a big
0:35:47page in an e-book and it takes you a
0:35:49certain amount of time to read a page or
0:35:50you're looking at a video and like my
0:35:53children you refuse to put the video in
0:35:55full screen the surrounding frame of the
0:35:57YouTube that's not video is static the
0:35:59whole time you're watching a 20 minute
0:36:00video no like with my television I can
0:36:04tell you as a long time plasma TV owner
0:36:07I don't play video games with a static
0:36:09HUD if I can help it on my big
0:36:11television I don't leave the television
0:36:13pause like I don't hit the pause button
0:36:15on a TiVo or whatever and then leave the
0:36:16room for five minutes
0:36:17if I'm going to leave like Apple TV has
0:36:19a screen saver that will turn on which
0:36:21is actually a useful thing for me
0:36:22because it's actually saving my screen
0:36:24but if I'm gonna leave the room for more
0:36:27than you know two minutes I turn off the
0:36:30television yeah I'll have to turn
0:36:31everything else off just turned the
0:36:32power off on television then turn it
0:36:33back on when you come in but that
0:36:35doesn't apply to iOS devices because
0:36:37it's not like you're leaving it paused
0:36:39you're leaving the room and the screen
0:36:40will turn off and a minute anyway to
0:36:42save your battery so I don't think
0:36:44there's anything anybody can do about it
0:36:45we just have to cross our fingers and
0:36:47help the first batch of these things
0:36:49don't end up having weird discoloration
0:36:51or image retention issues and hope that
0:36:52you get to them but from the good screen
0:36:54manufacturer if there is such a thing
0:36:55this time around and I'll just deal with
0:36:58it okay and finally tell me about
0:37:02Apple's silence on net neutrality the
0:37:05posts on OS news.com asking where's
0:37:10Apple on this hole and the neutrality
0:37:11thing we talked about it I think last
0:37:13show and unlike lots of other issues
0:37:15Apple is not a particularly loud
0:37:18cheerleader in favor of net neutrality
0:37:21to the point where the you know question
0:37:24was also where it does Apple say on this
0:37:25and like I don't know I've never heard
0:37:27them say anything of substance about net
0:37:30neutrality at all again unlike many
0:37:32other issues then this post goes on to
0:37:35speculate why that might be at Apple as
0:37:37it incumbent with the potential you know
0:37:41lots of money and lots of digital goods
0:37:43that they want to send over the wires
0:37:44the like neutrality would favor them
0:37:46because they do have the money to pay
0:37:47anybody and I can get an edge
0:37:48competitors and blow of all sorts of
0:37:50sort of conspiracy theories or whatever
0:37:51but as the biggest tech company in the
0:37:55world I feel like they should be much
0:37:57more vocal than they are I shouldn't be
0:37:59here thinking where does Apple stand
0:38:01neutrality I should already know because
0:38:02they should already have blocked out
0:38:05their web pages and maybe they did that
0:38:08and I'm just missing it I don't know
0:38:10Danny
0:38:11you guys we might recall anything from
0:38:14Apple about a neutral TF er no no yeah I
0:38:17don't know that's disappointing well I
0:38:21mean I don't fault them for like not
0:38:22making their pages black and stuff on
0:38:24certain days because like Apple does not
0:38:26respond well to social pressure to make
0:38:29them change their stuff for the sake of
0:38:30some you know someone else's terms like
0:38:33that's apples not gonna play a ball with
0:38:35that but it's not someone else doing it
0:38:37like they they changed the homepage when
0:38:38George Harrison died like it shouldn't
0:38:40it should be intrinsic not extrinsic
0:38:42should be them deciding that net
0:38:43neutrality is important you know
0:38:45therefore they are going to do this not
0:38:47that they feel PP they feel PP to put
0:38:49George Harrison them no it's just
0:38:50something they decided to do as a
0:38:51company and I hope that that still is
0:38:53within the company that these important
0:38:55causes and important days make the token
0:38:58effort express the values of your
0:39:00company and that Tim Cook's Apple has
0:39:02been doing that iam we talked about this
0:39:03more than Steve Jobs as Apple like
0:39:05expressing the values of the company
0:39:08externally in a in a more bold way that
0:39:10seemed to be more about Tim Cook's
0:39:12values maybe Tim Cook doesn't value net
0:39:14neutrality I don't know if you've never
0:39:15heard him talk about it it's hard to say
0:39:17there's a quote from him in this article
0:39:19that just as a bunch of nothing so
0:39:20doesn't tell you anything we are
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0:41:59recording Monday the 17th which is
0:42:02unusual we usually record on Wednesdays
0:42:04and we'll be recording again I think on
0:42:06Thursday yes on Thursday the 20th and
0:42:08this is because of its some vacation
0:42:10stuff and since we have all these
0:42:13vacations that are kind of
0:42:15inconvenient for the purposes of
0:42:16recording the show we thought we would
0:42:19do our possible and you all don't really
0:42:22call it a tradition but it's sort of
0:42:24becoming a tradition ask a teepee and do
0:42:26a Q&A with listeners so rather than
0:42:29asking us or asking you guys rather to
0:42:32inundate us with email we are taking a
0:42:35page out of the my Curley playbook and
0:42:37instead we would like you to use Twitter
0:42:39if at all possible if you please
0:42:41and tweet with the hashtag ask a teepee
0:42:45a ska teepee and if you tweet into the
0:42:50ether with hashtag ask a teepee then it
0:42:53will be added to a nice little document
0:42:55and we will go through it and hopefully
0:42:56read and answer your question sometime
0:42:59is it next step so that we're doing this
0:43:01is that right so the we have planet for
0:43:03next episode however I would like to say
0:43:05with all with the greatest apologies to
0:43:07the upgrade podcast for totally ripping
0:43:09them off I would like to make this a
0:43:11regular segment that I think we should
0:43:13have asked a TP in every show people ask
0:43:15those questions all the time yeah but
0:43:17isn't the joy not having to answer them
0:43:19okay not to be mean or anything but like
0:43:25you're right people do ask those
0:43:27questions all the time but you can
0:43:28understand how often people ask those
0:43:29questions it would be a full-time job
0:43:31for multiple people to try to answer all
0:43:33the questions that are asked to us it's
0:43:34just not possible we don't have to
0:43:36answer all of them but right right right
0:43:37so this don't think this is gonna
0:43:39suddenly make it so that we're gonna
0:43:40answer all your questions but hope that
0:43:42I mean the plan so like we'll answer
0:43:43point zero zero one percent instead of
0:43:45point zero zero zero percent right yeah
0:43:48like like every week we could answer one
0:43:50or two questions like depending on how
0:43:51long the answers are like because I feel
0:43:53like that would help prevent us from
0:43:55getting too much hmm in our own selves
0:44:00about our topic selection and would
0:44:03prevent us from getting too far into
0:44:05just endless cycles of follow up every
0:44:07episode like just have a segment that is
0:44:09just that is guaranteed to be something
0:44:12fresh even in a very slow news period
0:44:14like the summer time by the way this
0:44:16thing we're gonna out going to answer
0:44:18these shows in the next episode we're
0:44:19actually gonna answer this show the
0:44:21answer these questions on August 4th the
0:44:24recording on August 4th come and swim on
0:44:27your next episode maybe
0:44:28I'm just gonna do the whole point is
0:44:33you've got like three weeks to send
0:44:36questions so go nuts yeah and I mean the
0:44:41truth of matter is whether Marco or John
0:44:43wins this Civil War as to whether or not
0:44:46this becomes a regular thing no I
0:44:47totally for it being a regular segment
0:44:49I'm just saying like it don't expect I'm
0:44:52saying to the listeners don't have
0:44:53unrealistic expectations that your
0:44:55questions are gonna get answered because
0:44:56we get so many questions that it's just
0:44:57not possible to answer them all or even
0:44:59even any reasonable portion of it that
0:45:01is true but either way we will have a
0:45:05Google document a Google sheet I guess I
0:45:07should say that will track all of these
0:45:09for us so please go to Twitter if at all
0:45:12possible and use ahead and use the
0:45:14hashtag ask ATP if you don't have access
0:45:17to Twitter then now's a good time to
0:45:19sign up follow que cela CAS ey li SS and
0:45:22also tweet hashtag sk TP but really if
0:45:24you can't and won't suffer through
0:45:26twitter yes you can email us but now you
0:45:29are dodging the official list and it is
0:45:31extraordinarily unlikely unless your
0:45:33question is perfect in every way that we
0:45:36will answer your questions so the
0:45:38pressures that's cold man I just I don't
0:45:40want to get a bazillion emails please no
0:45:41well and the great thing about about
0:45:43Twitter is that it forces you to be
0:45:45brief you know because we don't like we
0:45:47already have a segment of the show where
0:45:49we read multi paragraph emails to you we
0:45:51we don't need to add more so instead if
0:45:53the the an ideal question it should
0:45:56probably be about one sentence and
0:45:58Twitter is great for that so we look
0:46:00forward to your questions with all
0:46:02apologies to the upgrade podcast for
0:46:04ripping off the segment from them you
0:46:06can use more than one tweet though
0:46:08because I feel like there's no tweet
0:46:13storm but 2040 is you take the hash tag
0:46:18already sometimes you just need you know
0:46:20last time we did Q&A I thought we had
0:46:21some really good questions they were
0:46:22like two sentences long that wouldn't
0:46:24fit in a tweet and I don't want to
0:46:25exclude those John that's the challenge
0:46:27that's that's the that's the price you
0:46:29pay to getting your stuff mentioned on
0:46:32air so that's the challenge
0:46:33listeners 140 characters minus seven so
0:46:37what is 133 characters you have to put a
0:46:39space for the hashtag that's true I
0:46:41don't
0:46:42make it happen formatting counts and
0:46:45make sure you get your casing right
0:46:47because let me tell you you don't want
0:46:48John siracusa on your case about casing
0:46:50especially if you're Casey anyway you
0:46:52like a letter U instead of Y oh you
0:46:53forget okay let's uh let's talk briefly
0:46:59about one password because there seems
0:47:00to be a bit of a kerfuffle that's
0:47:02happened over the last week or two and I
0:47:04don't get it and it kind of makes me
0:47:05angry so my understanding having not
0:47:09read deeply into this is that one
0:47:13passwords windows version the latest
0:47:16Windows version no longer supports
0:47:19writing to local vaults and I should
0:47:22probably take a half step back actually
0:47:24so one password is the password manager
0:47:25it's the one that I use it's probably
0:47:27the one that my two co-hosts use yeah I
0:47:29don't want to say that for certainty oh
0:47:31yeah John you're using keychain like an
0:47:32animal aren't you
0:47:34I declined to comment really whichever
0:47:38second is oh no Gary the privacy client
0:47:41clown is so yeah anyway
0:47:44all right well some of us on this show
0:47:46who will remain nameless definitely not
0:47:49SH Marco or SH Maisie definitely use one
0:47:52password and and one of the things that
0:47:55one password has started offering which
0:47:56I think we talked about in the past is
0:47:58family plans and business plans and so
0:48:01the idea here is that the way one
0:48:04password works is that they call kind of
0:48:07a group of passwords and other things as
0:48:10well a vault that's you could think of
0:48:12that kind of like a database and you can
0:48:15pay them money on a recurring basis as a
0:48:18employer or as just a family member and
0:48:21you can have a one or more of these
0:48:24vaults or databases stored on one
0:48:26password servers and then you can have
0:48:28users that are added to your account and
0:48:30then you can share passwords so as an
0:48:32example
0:48:32Shmi and Sharon might have a one
0:48:35passwords per family account where
0:48:38hypothetically they slash we would have
0:48:41individual vaults for our own individual
0:48:43passwords that we don't wish to share
0:48:44and one family vault for passwords that
0:48:46we do wish to share and in my opinion it
0:48:49has worked extremely well I think the
0:48:51one password apps and all the platforms
0:48:53are very well designed I think they're
0:48:54super great
0:48:55the agile bits folks seem to be really
0:48:57good I think they deserve recurring
0:49:00revenue from me and that's why I am a
0:49:02paying subscriber to 1password families
0:49:05my employer pays for one password four
0:49:07teams basically on my recommendation I
0:49:09really like it I really think it's great
0:49:11and among other things and I don't know
0:49:15the specifics about how the mechanism
0:49:16here but one of the things they've said
0:49:18is that in broad strokes they use a very
0:49:20similar encryption scheme as iCloud does
0:49:23so even if one password as a company or
0:49:26actual bits as a company wanted to get
0:49:27into your passwords that are stored on
0:49:30their servers there is nothing they can
0:49:32do to do that without your guess what
0:49:34one password so they've come out the new
0:49:37version for Windows they have stated
0:49:39publicly that this version will not let
0:49:42you write to vaults or databases that
0:49:45are stored locally and yeah and you have
0:49:47to understand that one password kind of
0:49:49came up by being by being able to store
0:49:51its password database its vault in
0:49:53Dropbox so you could have your passwords
0:49:54synced everywhere even without their
0:49:56services so a bunch of angry nerds some
0:49:59of whom are cheap and some of whom are
0:50:00not are getting very angry about the
0:50:03fact that you can't have local vaults on
0:50:06one password for Windows and thus it's
0:50:08clear without a shadow of a doubt that
0:50:10tomorrow or soon thereafter you won't be
0:50:12able to save two local vaults on any of
0:50:14the other platforms now my read on this
0:50:18is that yes there will probably come a
0:50:20time that you will not be able to use
0:50:22local vaults one password because if
0:50:24you're agile bits you probably want
0:50:25recurring revenue to continue to make
0:50:27really world-class apps and thus you're
0:50:29probably going to want to compel your
0:50:31users to pay you on a regular basis and
0:50:33you know what I'm cool with that because
0:50:35they do really great work they take it
0:50:38very seriously and they deserve a little
0:50:41bit of my money every year as far as I'm
0:50:42concerned but oh man the Nerds are very
0:50:47upset so let me start with Marco as a
0:50:51hypothetical one password user Gary the
0:50:53privacy clown I would never disclose
0:50:54whether or not Marco is publicly Marco
0:50:57what do you think you know a similar
0:50:59issue came up when TextExpander went
0:51:01subscription I believe about a year ago
0:51:03yeah yeah yeah with an it was met with
0:51:05similar anger and we talked about on the
0:51:07show too
0:51:08but but I think it's increasingly clear
0:51:10that there are very few models for
0:51:14software to sustain itself economically
0:51:15because the reality is we talked with
0:51:18before so I'll be brief software
0:51:20requires ongoing maintenance it like
0:51:24people have this idea that I'm just
0:51:25gonna buy this app and I'll pay you up
0:51:27front and I don't want to pay
0:51:29subscription I want I want to just pay
0:51:30you once then I own it and that's that's
0:51:32a wonderful idea and for a long time in
0:51:34computing that was somewhat reasonable
0:51:36but today those same people who only
0:51:39want to pay once upfront and then quote
0:51:41own it also expect the manufacturer of
0:51:44said software to constantly issue
0:51:46updates whenever the environment changes
0:51:49so a new OS version comes out they
0:51:52expect a free upgrade a new you know new
0:51:55features come out you know they expect
0:51:57that on a regular basis any kind of
0:51:59service based component that has to
0:52:01change with the times they expect all
0:52:02that to be built in ongoing bug fixes of
0:52:04course like people expect ongoing work
0:52:08for an upfront one-time price
0:52:10indefinitely and that's just not
0:52:13sustainable it's simple as that like no
0:52:15matter what people say they might say I
0:52:18just want to buy it in at once a lot of
0:52:20people do say that but what they want
0:52:22what they demand is ongoing maintenance
0:52:25of that product so the only way to make
0:52:29this work really is either to just have
0:52:32so many paid installs and upgrades that
0:52:35you couldn't just last on that for a
0:52:37while and just accept that you're gonna
0:52:39make you know 40 bucks from some
0:52:41customers up front and then they won't
0:52:42bother you again and some customers will
0:52:44be using your product for eight years
0:52:46and never give you another dime and
0:52:47expect constant free updates and you'll
0:52:48just have to kind of average it out and
0:52:49hope the average works out and that
0:52:52works more often than not in the growth
0:52:55phase of a product so in the beginning
0:52:56when like for for a new app or a or just
0:53:00a very successful app that can work for
0:53:03a long time like when I had Instapaper
0:53:05that works for a long time because it
0:53:06was just growing like crazy as the iOS
0:53:09platform was growing like crazy so the
0:53:11pay once and get free updates forever
0:53:13model worked for a long time and
0:53:141password probably has a similar curve
0:53:17here where you know for a while one
0:53:19password has been growing I think
0:53:21because I just keep seeing it everywhere
0:53:22assume it's been doing really well for a
0:53:24few years but these markets are
0:53:27saturating Mac sales are flat iOS sales
0:53:32are leveling off it's pretty
0:53:33significantly over the last few years
0:53:35you know these markets are saturating
0:53:38and so everyone who was depending on
0:53:41that constant growth of the platform to
0:53:43just drive new licenses for a pay once
0:53:46business model I think a lot of those
0:53:48companies are gonna now face this
0:53:49problem of you hey you know what we're
0:53:51seeing this curve flatten out now our
0:53:53income might be dropping or leveling off
0:53:56and we are still having to support this
0:53:58software with a staff and with costs and
0:54:01with ongoing maintenance there has to be
0:54:04some way to fund that and if you're not
0:54:07being able to fund it through the new
0:54:09users coming in that you didn't have
0:54:10before giving you this you know these 30
0:54:1240 bucks at a time for the for the
0:54:13one-time license then subscriptions
0:54:16really are the best way to do it now
0:54:19there is an alternative you can do paid
0:54:21upgrades which one password has done for
0:54:24awhile and most these companies that
0:54:26like on the met on iOS it's less common
0:54:28but on the Mac that's how things have
0:54:29worked for a while but paid upgrades
0:54:32have their own problems too for instance
0:54:35you have this weird like feature
0:54:36batching incentive where you as the
0:54:39software developer are incentivized not
0:54:41to really improve the existing version
0:54:43of the app in meaningful ways if you can
0:54:45save those up for the next paid upgrade
0:54:48then you have to like batch up your your
0:54:50releases and possibly not put out
0:54:52anything for like two years then all of
0:54:54a sudden have this boom big drop where
0:54:55you drop a whole bunch of features then
0:54:57you have other problems like feature
0:54:59bloat then he's like what you know look
0:55:01what happened with Microsoft and Adobe
0:55:02after for the last 20 years I'd say
0:55:04lots of companies have gone through this
0:55:06and what you end up coming oh and also
0:55:08like users who hate subscriptions who
0:55:11say they never want to pay that users
0:55:13have similar problems with upgrade
0:55:14pricing because there's problems with
0:55:16that too like neither of these things is
0:55:18perfect for what users expect the
0:55:21upgrade pricing has the problem of what
0:55:24if you buy it and then the next version
0:55:25comes out six months later should you
0:55:28get more of a discount then like someone
0:55:31who bought it five years ago because you
0:55:32just bought it you might be really mad
0:55:34if
0:55:35if the upper a comes out soon after you
0:55:36bought it you might expect that your
0:55:39ancient version running on like OS 10
0:55:41Tiger should still work today on the
0:55:43newest version of OS 10 but they might
0:55:46say you might you sorry you have to pay
0:55:47an upgrade for the new one like sorry
0:55:50there's problems with that too
0:55:53what it rolls what really boils down to
0:55:55is when you make people pay they'll
0:55:58grumble about it no matter how you make
0:56:00people pay they're going to grumble
0:56:01about it and the one thing they'll
0:56:03grumble about the most and get really
0:56:04mad about is when you change the way you
0:56:06make them pay but once you can get past
0:56:10that that problem of hey people are all
0:56:14mad right now during this transition
0:56:15once you get past that and you're on the
0:56:18other side of the transition if you are
0:56:20moving to subscriptions yeah people will
0:56:22be mad and some people will never buy it
0:56:25again
0:56:26they'll be so mad they'll hold that
0:56:27grudge forever I mean look adobe has
0:56:29this problem right with with Creative
0:56:31Cloud stuff but adobe doing great right
0:56:34now because they made this transition
0:56:35they're doing fantastically they are
0:56:38better off on the other side of it even
0:56:40though some people are still mad and
0:56:42will be mad forever about solutions some
0:56:44people will never use it as a result but
0:56:47the people who are left they're making
0:56:51Adobe more money and they're and adobe
0:56:52is in a healthier place now
0:56:54same thing with Microsoft I think with
0:56:56office and that kind of stuff and so
0:56:59honestly I haven't been paying attention
0:57:01to this entire kerfuffle or to whatever
0:57:04happened with TextExpander I don't know
0:57:06if smile for release numbers or give any
0:57:09indication on whether they're doing
0:57:10better now with the new subscription
0:57:12model as they were before but if one
0:57:16password or or smile you know if these
0:57:18companies can go can get to the other
0:57:20side of this transition and if even if
0:57:23they lose customers along the way they
0:57:26will probably be in a better place
0:57:28financially and will be more stable than
0:57:31they were before with the old you know
0:57:33pay maybe every few years for a paid
0:57:35upgrade model and so even if this loses
0:57:39them customers it still might be the
0:57:41best approach to take now that being
0:57:42said there are complicating factors with
0:57:44this particular arrangement one password
0:57:46because of the nature of it is dealing
0:57:47with this extremely
0:57:49sensitive data that a lot of a lot of
0:57:51customers have either requirements or
0:57:54requests that the vault that is being
0:57:58that the database of your passwords not
0:58:01leave their network and they've had
0:58:03forever this local vaults feature where
0:58:05you can you can literally not use a sync
0:58:08service at all you can have basically
0:58:10like your Mac sync its local vault over
0:58:14the local Wi-Fi to your iOS devices or
0:58:17you can have or you just not use sync at
0:58:19all and and just you know not use it on
0:58:21iOS or whatever and a lot of companies
0:58:23that's the method they have to use I've
0:58:25heard here and there that some groups
0:58:27with an apple use one password but and
0:58:29they they depend on that feature being
0:58:30there because they you know Apple I
0:58:32don't think would permit its employees
0:58:34to have passwords stored on some
0:58:36external service or synced via Dropbox
0:58:38or anything like that so I do think one
0:58:42password moving to a subscription
0:58:45pricing model is totally fine and yeah
0:58:50people are gonna get mad but it's that's
0:58:51probably fine and by the way they
0:58:54haven't said they're doing that all
0:58:56they've they basically just like laid
0:58:58some groundwork in some commentary that
0:59:00suggests that they're considering that
0:59:02in the future but they're not they
0:59:04haven't actually said that yet but
0:59:06anyway I do think a move to subscription
0:59:09pricing is probably fine and probably
0:59:12the right move for a lot of software
0:59:14companies that that require ongoing work
0:59:16for their products to work and by the
0:59:18way you might say person listening who
0:59:20hates descriptions you might say well
0:59:21it's just a password manager why do I
0:59:23have to pay every month for this well
0:59:25what happens when the new version of
0:59:27Chrome comes out and their extension
0:59:28breaks they have to fix their extension
0:59:30what happens when a new and when like
0:59:32people find websites the extension
0:59:34doesn't work on and they have to fix
0:59:36that new versions of iOS come out and
0:59:37they have to update to 64-bit or
0:59:39whatever like there's oh there's
0:59:40constantly ongoing work here one
0:59:42password is a very complicated app with
0:59:45lots of different components
0:59:46it runs on many different operating
0:59:47systems and it runs in every web browser
0:59:50and it runs an iOS extensions and like
0:59:52it's it's on all these different
0:59:54platforms all these different parts of
0:59:55it that are all too interdependent and
0:59:57have to interact with the way
0:59:57have to interact with the way
1:00:00AB which is a constantly changing
1:00:02environment so they have to put constant
1:00:05efforts that whether you realize it or
1:00:06not if they stopped or if your version
1:00:09stopped getting updates you'd be mad
1:00:10because it wouldn't work as well so
1:00:13subscription pricing I'm on board with
1:00:16that and by the way I do pay for this
1:00:18eruption I started paying for it that's
1:00:21six months ago when I started reducing
1:00:23my dependence on Dropbox I switched to
1:00:25their sync system and it's been totally
1:00:27fine however the removal of local vaults
1:00:31if that is the plan I think that's a
1:00:34mistake for this app because that will
1:00:37probably cost them a lot of customers
1:00:39that can never come back even if they
1:00:41change their mind about how they want to
1:00:42pay so I do think they should probably I
1:00:44mean they know better than whether than
1:00:47I do
1:00:47what their customers want but me sitting
1:00:49over here as an armchair observer
1:00:50I think removing local vaults is
1:00:52probably a bad idea but subscription
1:00:55pricing is fine I think the reason they
1:00:58might be tempted to entangle these two
1:01:00things is current pricing and the the
1:01:02whole cloud sync or whatever is that
1:01:04companies still feel for all a lot of
1:01:07the reasons that you just mentioned that
1:01:08they want to have a story about why
1:01:11you're paying every month and any kind
1:01:13of cloud sync thing where they store
1:01:15your data on their servers that they run
1:01:17it's like oh well you're paying us every
1:01:19month because we're taking your data and
1:01:20we're storing it in our servers and we
1:01:21have to pay money to run those servers
1:01:23and it's like it's it's something you
1:01:25can explain to people have a better
1:01:27chance of explaining to people like why
1:01:28am I paying for this every month right
1:01:30but in reality the reason they need you
1:01:33to pay for every month is everything
1:01:34that Margo just said it's nothing to do
1:01:35with oh we have to run servers there's
1:01:37no servers involved whatsoever it is
1:01:38entirely local vaults and direct
1:01:40device-to-device sync and they didn't
1:01:42run any servers you should still pay the
1:01:45monthly like in the same way that you
1:01:46would for like Photoshop or whatever
1:01:47because that's the business model that
1:01:48allows them to continue to support their
1:01:51software and it's kind of one of the
1:01:55goals I feel like modern software
1:01:57applications is to become valuable
1:01:59enough that people will pay you monthly
1:02:01obviously artists who make their living
1:02:03you know in Photoshop or illustrator or
1:02:06whatever it's a no-brainer as a business
1:02:08expense that they make more money you
1:02:11know if they're experts in Photoshop and
1:02:13I like
1:02:13well I'm gonna learn an entirely new
1:02:15graphics program or find something else
1:02:16that I can do move working because I
1:02:17don't want no you'll totally pay the
1:02:19monthly fee because that's how valuable
1:02:20Photoshop is for your work and for
1:02:23things like password managers or you
1:02:26know maybe text editors in some cases or
1:02:29whatever some sort of integral tool
1:02:31that's like it's not just a frivolous
1:02:32thing that you have on your Mac that you
1:02:34kind of like it's like no I can't get my
1:02:36work done without this even something
1:02:37like slack where if your whole company
1:02:39starts using slack and like your company
1:02:41runs on slack you realize it's like
1:02:44valuable enough to our company for us to
1:02:46pay whatever slack is charging for it
1:02:48like and there's a limited number of
1:02:50those types of applications you can't
1:02:51look in your Applications folder and say
1:02:53oh I'm gonna pay a subscription for
1:02:54every single of those out so you won't
1:02:55they're not all that valuable to you so
1:02:57if you're making software these this in
1:03:01these days it should be your goal to be
1:03:02one of those applications is valuable
1:03:05enough for people to pay a subscription
1:03:07fee for it and a password manager I
1:03:08think is definitely in that category of
1:03:11things because we all have lots of
1:03:12passwords and we want to store them
1:03:15securely and we want it to be convenient
1:03:17but also you know not vulnerable and
1:03:21like don't want to have to think about
1:03:23the security we want an application that
1:03:24has a long life a company that has a
1:03:26reputation for security that's not owned
1:03:28by you know an advertising company or
1:03:31something like that and so I feel like
1:03:33one password will eventually do well if
1:03:35I can get through this transition
1:03:36because people are motivated to pay them
1:03:39money on a recurring basis just so they
1:03:42don't get bought up by some evil
1:03:43corporation or aren't tempted to sell
1:03:45the personal information and do
1:03:46something dumb and like a lot of the
1:03:47stuff with that you know the clouds sink
1:03:49and you know I don't want to type my one
1:03:51password into a webpage because who
1:03:52knows what could be happening like in
1:03:54the end you have to trust the company
1:03:56that makes one password because they
1:03:58control the field that you're typing
1:04:00your one password into and you don't
1:04:02know what they're doing with that they
1:04:03could be grabbing all your keystrokes
1:04:04and sending it off to someone for you
1:04:06know but they're not like that's why you
1:04:07buy from them because you know this is a
1:04:08company that's good I trust their
1:04:10reputation right so I think their
1:04:13customer waste would be enough in the
1:04:16customer base will be willing to pay
1:04:18them a recurring subscription even if
1:04:20there was no server involved like you
1:04:22don't need to convince them oh we'll run
1:04:24servers for you and do it like
1:04:26local vault only in fact maybe they were
1:04:28willing to pay more for the fund with
1:04:30fewer features so this is an interesting
1:04:31case because like Margot was saying
1:04:33they're not just any random application
1:04:36they're a specific kind of application
1:04:38with specific privacy concerns that
1:04:40makes it so that like cloud sync or
1:04:43cloud storage is almost a demerit
1:04:46against them in terms of privacy and it
1:04:49should not be tied in any way to their
1:04:51recurring revenue so yeah easy for us to
1:04:54say perhaps computer nerds who like love
1:04:58to pay for software or software
1:04:59developers ourselves who you know make
1:05:02our living some other people paying for
1:05:03our software but you know when I talk to
1:05:07non computer enthusiasts the people who
1:05:11just you know they're not into computers
1:05:12at all they have a phone obviously they
1:05:14have maybe they have a computer or
1:05:15whatever the idea of paying anything at
1:05:18all ever for software still seems alien
1:05:20to a lot of people so again the you know
1:05:25the strategy is to both become valuable
1:05:28enough that people are willing to pay
1:05:30and probably to make an application that
1:05:34appeals to people who are acquainted
1:05:36with the concept of paying money for
1:05:38software yes don't make an application
1:05:40that appeals greatly to people who have
1:05:44never paid for software and think it's
1:05:46ridiculous to do so because even if you
1:05:47make an application that they all love
1:05:48they'll never pay you for it it's bad
1:05:50make make an application people who are
1:05:53willing to pay for software and make it
1:05:56your application valuable enough for
1:05:58them that they're willing to pay on a
1:05:59recurring basis and it's just a question
1:06:01of finding the right price I'll be
1:06:02saying I could have pay $700 a month for
1:06:04a password manager unless maybe you know
1:06:07it's some SuperDuper secure one that has
1:06:10some sort of you know legal indemnity it
1:06:12goes with their so it probably cost them
1:06:13more than $70 a month right but they pay
1:06:16one cent a month so find the right
1:06:19number between 1 cent and $700 and you
1:06:22know I mean like that that's part of how
1:06:25adobe has managed their pricing where
1:06:27like you know Creative Suite is
1:06:29something like 50 bucks a month if you
1:06:31buy the whole thing and you know it goes
1:06:32down from there if you only need parts
1:06:34of it but if you if you were buying it
1:06:36before you like in the
1:06:39they have priced it such that it
1:06:41actually is fairly comparable to if you
1:06:45were actually just buying it every
1:06:47version or two before now a lot of the
1:06:49customers weren't buying it at all a lot
1:06:51of them pirating it and a lot of them
1:06:53were also not buying every version like
1:06:56that you know they would skip versions
1:06:57or they would buy one and use it for six
1:07:00years because they just didn't care
1:07:01about the stuff in the new versions or
1:07:03they didn't want to spend the money or
1:07:04they couldn't for the money whatever
1:07:05else but for the most part they set the
1:07:07pricing of the subscription such that if
1:07:09you were buying it already it actually
1:07:12is a sensible price and that's why I
1:07:14subscribe to Adobe Creative Suite
1:07:16because I was buying them already and so
1:07:18it ended up like yeah this is actually
1:07:20totally fine and yeah for them like I I
1:07:23think they can set a price that makes
1:07:26sense here I honestly don't even
1:07:27remember what I'm paying them because
1:07:29it's too much for me to pay for I can
1:07:32tell you that because I have cs6 the
1:07:33last non-cloud version sorry one
1:07:36password is what I'm talking about oh oh
1:07:39it's five dollars a month for the family
1:07:42plan three dollars a month for the
1:07:43individuals that's okay that's totally
1:07:45fine
1:07:46I think there might be a discount if you
1:07:48go a year at a time I'm not positive
1:07:49about that so I might be wrong but I
1:07:51mean five dollars a month a soda at a
1:07:54regular restaurant like when John is
1:07:57feeling really really saucy and wants to
1:08:00get himself a sprite at a restaurant
1:08:01that's probably 250 and he's literally
1:08:04pissing that away a few hours later this
1:08:06is five dollars I mean this is not a lot
1:08:09of money but that isn't how people think
1:08:10about it like that you know you know
1:08:15people think about this at all but yeah
1:08:19I mean yeah one password being three or
1:08:21five dollars a month that's totally fine
1:08:24because you know it is a power user
1:08:26productivity security tool that is often
1:08:31used by businesses like all of those
1:08:33words are things that things that can
1:08:36make paying for software you know
1:08:38valuable and reasonable and yeah the
1:08:41it's this is no brainer to me like just
1:08:43to to ensure that this app is
1:08:46financially healthy and here for the
1:08:48long haul
1:08:50three dollars a month is totally fine we
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1:11:12hover domain names for your ideas hi
1:11:19Marco tell me about what's going on with
1:11:20overcast these days because I have I
1:11:22feel like I haven't heard much which
1:11:23means either you're not working or more
1:11:25likely you're working a lot and you're
1:11:27just keeping it all quiet I'm mostly not
1:11:29working because you know summer however
1:11:32when I am working I I have a dilemma and
1:11:35I talked about it under the radar
1:11:37recently but but in case you know the
1:11:40listener base of that is not the
1:11:41listener base of this so there are
1:11:42people who haven't heard it and I
1:11:43haven't heard what you who probably
1:11:45won't care and especially what John who
1:11:47probably has an opinion about this think
1:11:49about this so my my main dilemma with
1:11:52updating overcast to iOS 11 is iOS 11
1:11:57adds drag-and-drop stuff to the standard
1:12:00system widgets oh I have opinions about
1:12:02this I definitely have opinions you can
1:12:04now full time reorder table views and
1:12:08collection views in iOS if if the app
1:12:10supports it and supporting it is very
1:12:12easy I already built my own full-time
1:12:15reordering system to reorder items and
1:12:18playlists and overcast so you can drag
1:12:20around episodes and you can reorder them
1:12:21right there with the little drag handles
1:12:23on the right side doing this in my way
1:12:26was an incredibly complex pile of hacks
1:12:28that works most of the time but has a
1:12:32few weird little random bugs that I just
1:12:35cannot solve and will probably never
1:12:37solve but for the most part it does work
1:12:39and it's fast and it's it's very clear
1:12:41and discoverable right there I also have
1:12:44a problem with overcast 3.0 the method
1:12:47that I chose of of tapping the the
1:12:51episode sells shouldn't expand a little
1:12:52menu like you know Tweetbot style and
1:12:55the and that the play button is one of
1:12:57the items in that menu as opposed to the
1:12:59previous behavior we're just tapping on
1:13:01an episode row would just immediately
1:13:02start playing it no matter what
1:13:03a lot of people still do not like this
1:13:06and the user base seem this seems like a
1:13:09very polarizing decision among the user
1:13:12base and it and it has not stopped
1:13:14beating polarizing it people have not
1:13:15gotten used to it that you know I am
1:13:17used to it and I like
1:13:18but a lot of people still don't and they
1:13:20seem to not be changing so it doesn't
1:13:23seem like this is a kind of thing where
1:13:24oh you'll just get used to having just
1:13:26tapped twice to play you know like a lot
1:13:27of people really hate having a tap twice
1:13:29to play so my idea is what if I replace
1:13:32the drag handle on the right side of the
1:13:35cells with a one tap play button move
1:13:38the info button that's there in
1:13:40selection mode down to where the play
1:13:41button was and you know the middle of
1:13:42that little bar menu that comes up and
1:13:44then use these systems full time drag
1:13:47rotor and control replacing my giant
1:13:50pile of hacks I think this is a good
1:13:52idea there are lots of advantages of
1:13:55doing this however one of the big
1:13:58disadvantages of doing this first of all
1:14:00it's another change people hate change
1:14:02so I'm now moving the play button again
1:14:04which even though people have been
1:14:08screaming their heads off for one for
1:14:10one tap play to come back if I give that
1:14:12to them a different group people will
1:14:14scream their heads off that I moved it
1:14:15and then the other problem is that the
1:14:18system drag and drop implementation has
1:14:22a small delay where you have to hold the
1:14:24cell down before it pops up to be
1:14:26draggable and mine before my hack job
1:14:29was instant you can just immediately
1:14:32drive it handle and you wouldn't have to
1:14:33wait so the system version of it is a
1:14:36little bit slower to activate however
1:14:39the system version will also allow me to
1:14:41put the play button on the side of the
1:14:43cell so it's so I would bring back one
1:14:46tap playing at least didn't like the
1:14:47right quarter of the cell it wouldn't be
1:14:49the full width of the cell because I'd
1:14:50still have the little pop-up menu if you
1:14:52tap the rest of the cell but if you tap
1:14:53a little right side thing that could be
1:14:55a play button and I could make the touch
1:14:57target you know pretty pretty tall and
1:14:59wide on that so people could get their
1:15:01OneTouch playback I also I could get rid
1:15:03of my giant hack which barely works now
1:15:07and is likely to break in future iOS
1:15:09updates so I think I should do this
1:15:13but how how big of a problem is it that
1:15:16that the new standard of reordering
1:15:18method has a small delay before you
1:15:20activate it this is not a question and I
1:15:25really really love under the radar but
1:15:27there are episodes where I switch from
1:15:30loving and listening
1:15:31to hate listening and under the radar
1:15:33because I so deeply disagree with one or
1:15:36both of you and I started this
1:15:39particular episode which I believe is
1:15:41number 87 I'll have a link in the show
1:15:42notes it's never longer than 30 minutes
1:15:43so let's get started anyway uh the this
1:15:46episode I started a hate listening and
1:15:48then ended up just listening and
1:15:50enjoying because my opinion spoiler
1:15:53alert is that you talked yourself into
1:15:55implementing this using the new api's by
1:15:58the end of the episode now it sounds
1:15:59like maybe that isn't quite so cut and
1:16:01dried since you're talking about it with
1:16:02us now but to me this is not even a
1:16:05question
1:16:06this is absolutely using you API and a
1:16:09meeting and there's a couple reasons for
1:16:11that number one it may feel weird now
1:16:14that you have a little bit of a delay
1:16:16and whatnot but I don't think it will
1:16:18feel weird soon now in your defense
1:16:21drag and drop I suspect is going to be a
1:16:23lot less prevalent on the iPhone than it
1:16:25is on the iPad so those of us who
1:16:27perhaps only he's overcast on the iPhone
1:16:29and maybe don't use iPads that often it
1:16:32may feel a little weird at first and
1:16:33like you said moving the UI around is
1:16:35always gonna tick somebody off but more
1:16:38than somebody well you know what I mean
1:16:40many somebody's off but as someone who
1:16:44really really really dislikes
1:16:46third-party libraries because you feel
1:16:48like you have no control over them and
1:16:49oftentimes they are pile of hacks and
1:16:51really it's kind of a dangerous position
1:16:56to put yourself in to have a third-party
1:16:57library especially one that's like
1:16:59really really um I can't think the way
1:17:02to phrase it but like it's wide reaching
1:17:04and it's it's taking a system thing and
1:17:06it's totally rejiggering it and you're
1:17:08like wed to this library you have
1:17:11created your own first party equivalent
1:17:13of that and you must burn it with fire
1:17:15as soon as you possibly can this is not
1:17:17a question you must get rid of it you
1:17:19must use new api's end a meeting John
1:17:22what do you think what a question and if
1:17:25you use the native dragging thing can
1:17:28you do a thing where you like whatever
1:17:30tap and hold so it like it pops up and
1:17:33ieave you've grabbed it can you with
1:17:35another finger flick scroll the stuff
1:17:38behind it yes and it's amazing so it
1:17:40solves your problem of like this of the
1:17:43bump bump bump bump bump scrolling speed
1:17:45so you have to do it then and you can
1:17:46pick up multiple items well yeah I don't
1:17:49think I don't be doing that too much but
1:17:50maybe on the iPad but yeah no you
1:17:51totally need to do the native things I
1:17:53think the native native dragging yes
1:17:57alright the second question is okay so I
1:17:59do native Gregg now I have these two
1:18:01options I don't need the drag handles
1:18:02anymore or whatever what do I do with
1:18:04that space and for that I think I'll
1:18:05have to use it to see what it's like I
1:18:07understood what you're getting out of
1:18:08the pay but I didn't play about I'll be
1:18:09over here the info button will be in a
1:18:10little you know expanded bar thing maybe
1:18:13that will be fine maybe will be weird I
1:18:14don't know I think it's worth separating
1:18:16like determined determining like exactly
1:18:18what to do with this newfound space and
1:18:20freedom and gesture freedom because I'm
1:18:22not entirely sure but native and drop
1:18:25you know seems like a no-brainer like a
1:18:26city get rid of your hacks it's it's a
1:18:29better interface and as drag-and-drop in
1:18:31theory becomes more prevalent into what
1:18:33people will expect so just do it
1:18:35and I also forgot to mention that I am
1:18:37one of those people who is still grumbly
1:18:38about the fact that there's a to tap
1:18:40play scheme and so bringing back the
1:18:44play button on the right will make me
1:18:45very happy and we all know that overcast
1:18:48is written specifically to make KC happy
1:18:50so yeah I think you're I think you're
1:18:52gonna have to do it Marco if I do that
1:18:54can can you stop asking me for a Mac up
1:18:56well when's the last time I've asked you
1:18:58for one cuz every you know I'll tell you
1:18:59yeah I'll tell you when the last time I
1:19:02asked for a Mac app was probably about a
1:19:04day or two before I got my air pods
1:19:06because now the reason I wanted a Mac up
1:19:08so badly was because you know the
1:19:11Bluetooth headphones that I was using
1:19:12previously we're such a pain to switch
1:19:14between my Mac and my iPhone but now
1:19:16with the air pods it takes two seconds
1:19:18to switch between them so what I'm
1:19:20listening to overcast I'm connected to
1:19:21my phone and when I'm listening to
1:19:22anything else in the world I'm connected
1:19:24to my Mac and it's nowhere speaking of
1:19:27apps that Marco doesn't want to develop
1:19:29and/or maintain I have a report for the
1:19:33Mac version or another or the web
1:19:35version of overcast Oh God alright so
1:19:38frequently people will tweet over gas
1:19:41links with offsets which is cool it's
1:19:42like that's exactly what you want I'm
1:19:43gonna tap this link and it's going to
1:19:44take me right to the second in the
1:19:46podcast that they're trying to refer me
1:19:48to right as long as this is a major NPR
1:19:50podcast yes yeah but if it is a podcast
1:19:55that I subscribe to and in the middle of
1:19:57listening
1:19:58- is it just my imagination or does that
1:20:01throw off my offset because I'm logged
1:20:03into my over assed account and it sent
1:20:05me to an offset and I play it it syncs
1:20:08that offset and now I've lost where I
1:20:09was because I was earlier or later and
1:20:11the thing is that a thing or is my
1:20:13imagination that is indeed what happens
1:20:14and I've thought about this before like
1:20:16whether that should be what happens or
1:20:18not and it it's it's hard because it's
1:20:20like if you when you put it this way
1:20:22yeah that shouldn't happen you're right
1:20:24but what would the alternative be and it
1:20:28would you say okay well what should
1:20:29happen like if you're if you're logged
1:20:31in and if you have this podcast in your
1:20:34list so it so it's not unplayed or
1:20:37rather it's not played like it's it's an
1:20:38active item in your list and you have a
1:20:40position in it then you get sent a
1:20:43timestamp link for different time in
1:20:45that then should it play that but then
1:20:47not ever update your synced position
1:20:50what if you play past your synced
1:20:52position should it update it then like
1:20:54it's it's fairly complex as to what it
1:20:56should do and so I haven't really
1:20:58addressed it yet what do you think it
1:20:59should do I think it should pretty sure
1:21:02it should just not update the the synced
1:21:04position only if you go to a link with
1:21:07an offset in it but I can't think of a
1:21:09scenario where I would I would at the
1:21:11playhead would be at some non-zero
1:21:12position in the podcast right I think is
1:21:17the tricky bit that you're talking about
1:21:18is like I haven't started playing it
1:21:20then I'm not quite sure what to do but
1:21:21if I have started to play it I think
1:21:25it's pretty clear that you and I go to
1:21:27an offset I want to play from that
1:21:30offset in the web player and have it not
1:21:32affect my other offset because I can't
1:21:34think of a scenario where I would want
1:21:35it to affect it why would why would I
1:21:36formulate an overcast web link for
1:21:39myself to jump to an offset with the
1:21:42intention of me going fair now if the
1:21:44thing is at the zero position I haven't
1:21:45started playing and I go to an offset to
1:21:47listen to a thing I personally would
1:21:49also like it not to update the thing
1:21:51because very often what happens is it
1:21:53does update it and then I will go to
1:21:55that episode and it'll start playing a
1:21:57bit like I guess I listened to the
1:21:59beginning of this one huh because here I
1:22:01am in the middle of it like I'll forget
1:22:02I don't realize no I just I just missed
1:22:04the entire beginning because of that
1:22:05offset link that I followed like you
1:22:07know three days ago or whatever so
1:22:09my solution obviously is just just if
1:22:11you just run your web browser in
1:22:13incognito mode or whatever when you tap
1:22:16that link it you know you won't be
1:22:17logged into overcast or log yourself out
1:22:19of overcast
1:22:19that's a terrible solution I know but
1:22:22anyway if you're just looking for the
1:22:25quick fix quick fix is offset in URL
1:22:28equals never sync playhead position and
1:22:30then just make a different set of people
1:22:31angry I think that's right actually that
1:22:34that actually sounds like a really good
1:22:35solution that yeah because if if there's
1:22:38an offset in New York because the
1:22:39regular web interface does not put those
1:22:40off it's there so if there's an offset
1:22:43in the URL just don't touch the synced
1:22:45position at all yeah I think that makes
1:22:47sense to me too yeah so like it's kind
1:22:50of like the one tap to play like you for
1:22:53a few years make one set of people angry
1:22:54and then you just put you back and then
1:22:56for a few more years make those at
1:22:58people angry and then yeah I think you
1:23:00know so really how many people use the
1:23:01web interface right honestly very few
1:23:04it's it's a very like just get all of us
1:23:06in the chat room that actually might be
1:23:10possible like it's it's very few people
1:23:12like and every time somebody tweets a
1:23:16web link with overcast there are
1:23:19responses that are like oh my god I
1:23:20don't know how to have web interface
1:23:22like no one knows it's there and even
1:23:24the people who do know it's there no one
1:23:26uses it and yes that part of that is
1:23:28because it's pretty bare-bones and I
1:23:29could make it a lot better or more or
1:23:32more full-featured if I put a lot of
1:23:34work into it but it's kind of chicken
1:23:36and egg thing like part of the reason I
1:23:37don't put a lot of work into it is that
1:23:39nobody uses it
1:23:39I'm also glad you don't Chuck me into
1:23:41the app because that's the other option
1:23:42that most people would do yeah that's no
1:23:44there's a web interface but it
1:23:46immediately knows but you have the app
1:23:48installed and Chuck's it to the app
1:23:49because does I certainly don't want you
1:23:51to go into the app again if you're
1:23:52playing if it's an episode that I
1:23:54haven't started playing it or a one that
1:23:55I'm in the middle of I don't want it to
1:23:56go into my app and change my playhead
1:23:59position like inside the app if you if
1:24:00you did send to the app I would say go
1:24:03to the app but open a totally alternate
1:24:05one time like you just saw it an offset
1:24:08like player interface that is
1:24:09disconnected entirely with the actual
1:24:12listening interface because when you
1:24:14follow a link with an offset someone's
1:24:15trying to show you something in an
1:24:17episode it is clearly not the same as I
1:24:19am listening to the episode they're
1:24:20trying to say here's this little snip
1:24:22right here listen to this bit right and
1:24:24that I feel like is a different activity
1:24:26then I'm gonna now listen to the next
1:24:28episode of my favorite podcast
1:24:30alright thanks to our three sponsors
1:24:31this week hover fracture and aftershocks
1:24:34and we will see you next week
1:24:38now the show is over
1:24:41they didn't even mean to begin as it was
1:24:44accidental oh it was accidental johnny
1:24:50research Margo and Casey wouldn't
1:24:54because it was accidentally was
1:24:57accidental you can find the show today
1:25:10CAS II WA L is Esther that's Casey less
1:25:15and a are Co a RM auntie Marco Arment
1:25:20are
1:25:22[Music]
1:25:29[Music]
1:25:38so I I felt left out with you having
1:25:42your impulse purchases uh-oh and so and
1:25:45so Aaron and I bought a car tonight whoa
1:25:48wait like during the show well not not a
1:25:52car right well okay so I would call it a
1:25:55truck but Aaron would correct me and say
1:25:58no it's not a truck it's an SUV like a
1:26:00big sneaker really sorry tennis shoes oh
1:26:02that's so cruel I don't really get why
1:26:05people are me but like people who call
1:26:07SUVs trucks I feel like that's unearned
1:26:10like a truck is a truck like if it
1:26:13doesn't have like a bed on it like
1:26:15that's not a truck yeah and that's
1:26:17exactly what Aaron would say probably
1:26:19verbatim to me anything that is taller
1:26:21than a car is a truck I'm not saying I'm
1:26:23right like I'm not trying to convince
1:26:25the listeners or anyone or you to I'm
1:26:27not saying I'm right it's just the way
1:26:29I've always thought of it which which is
1:26:30probably bananas but but yeah we we a
1:26:35few hours ago bought Aaron a brand new
1:26:38Volvo xc90 and it's very nice and we're
1:26:41very happy and aaron is sad that she's
1:26:46left her mazda6 behind we bought her a
1:26:49Mazda 6 couple months after we got
1:26:52married and so that car has been in the
1:26:55family from knew that the the Mazda 6
1:26:58that is for almost exactly 10 years we
1:27:02brought it home at the end of August of
1:27:042007 and we let it go today and it said
1:27:07it's weird right because of course just
1:27:09a thing right it's the machine but it's
1:27:11kind of makes you sad when you see one
1:27:13go especially well mark oh you wouldn't
1:27:15know about this because you don't keep
1:27:16cars for more than two minutes but for
1:27:17those of us who keep cars for a while
1:27:19like John and me yes it's uh it's it's
1:27:22sad to see one go because it's been a
1:27:24part of the family for so darn long I
1:27:26totally get it I have felt that as well
1:27:28and yeah I mean I I almost cried when I
1:27:31gave up the m5 like it I liked it so
1:27:33much like well Indu had a very unique
1:27:35experience in that car so yeah I mean
1:27:39sheshe was weepy I was on the verge of
1:27:42weepy and it's funny because I I mean I
1:27:44liked her Mazda
1:27:45me wrong it was a very nice car in in
1:27:47more than anything else it has given us
1:27:51or had home it had given us no problems
1:27:54in its ten years in I mean I think we
1:27:57had to do an alternator once but
1:27:59everything else was routine maintenance
1:28:01I mean it was bulletproof which is
1:28:03probably a Japanese thing in that you
1:28:06know most Honda's I've heard about are
1:28:08bulletproof most Toyota's or seem to be
1:28:11bulletproof and this Mazda is was
1:28:14certainly bulletproof there's one
1:28:15individual Mazda 6 was bulletproof and
1:28:17so so yeah so I was sad to see it go but
1:28:21really excited to have the new car I
1:28:23only have one question and you know what
1:28:25it is it is not why not there was a
1:28:29brief window of time where as I've
1:28:32described and as you do not like to
1:28:34agree but IIIi was backed into white on
1:28:37my most recent car not the prior ones
1:28:39the prior ones were more deliberate than
1:28:42not but oh really it was only a Subaru
1:28:44that was delivered anyway go with some
1:28:45neutral and you'll get the the story but
1:28:47I happens to be white yeah well the BMW
1:28:50happen to be white and a couple of the
1:28:52other cars happen to be white the Subaru
1:28:54was a deliberate choice but anyway this
1:28:56one is silver we wanted well maybe more
1:28:59me than her I don't think she cared that
1:29:01much
1:29:01I wanted a deeper gray which happens to
1:29:03be what her Mazda was but but for this
1:29:07one we ended up can I can I complain for
1:29:11a moment please
1:29:12can I whine if that's what this show is
1:29:14about you know yeah really
1:29:16can I whine for a minute about how awful
1:29:20it is to buy a car although I hear Tesla
1:29:22it's just you go online in your price
1:29:24and you pick it out and that's that I
1:29:25don't know I don't want to hear about
1:29:26yeah because it just makes order from
1:29:27Tesla is like ordering from Amazon like
1:29:29it's literally like Add to Cart buy
1:29:32that's me so sad it makes me so sad so
1:29:34when we bought Aaron's Mazda we started
1:29:39the process in I think it was like
1:29:42August of 2016 give or take a month and
1:29:44we bought in August of 2017 and we
1:29:48literally haggled with the dealer for a
1:29:51year to get her car because we just
1:29:53refused to budge on the price that we
1:29:55wanted so we walked into the local
1:29:58dealer at the end of December last year
1:30:01I can't recall an exact day it doesn't
1:30:03really matter but at the very end of
1:30:04December I believe it was between
1:30:05Christmas and New Year's I think and
1:30:07today on the 17th of July we brought the
1:30:11car home I have spent the last since
1:30:15Thursday or Friday I have spent all day
1:30:18every day
1:30:21emailing every dealer between
1:30:24Philadelphia and Greensboro North
1:30:26Carolina trying to get a good deal on
1:30:29this car now before anyone complains yes
1:30:32I did this to myself but what ended up
1:30:35happening was I emailed all these
1:30:37dealers saying look what's your best
1:30:38out-the-door price I don't I don't don't
1:30:40even worry about a trade-in
1:30:41just tell me with tax with everything
1:30:44what is your best out-the-door price and
1:30:46you would think that that would be easy
1:30:48but of course it's not because their job
1:30:50is to not give me their best out the
1:30:52door price their job is to give me their
1:30:54crappiest out the door price and hope
1:30:57that I that I agree to it so what ended
1:31:00up happening long story short is I got
1:31:04our Richmond dealer in a bidding war
1:31:06with a couple other dealers and we were
1:31:08mostly the victors and so eventually we
1:31:11got this car at an extreme well I think
1:31:14of an extreme discount and I'm really
1:31:16pleased with that
1:31:17additionally valiant and you have to
1:31:20understand that Aaron has never been a
1:31:21particular fan of my car like she thinks
1:31:23it's fine but she hates BMW drivers
1:31:25because well we're all jerks and and so
1:31:28she's never really been a tremendous fan
1:31:30of my car
1:31:30guess what cars saved her several
1:31:33thousand dollars because of a Volvo
1:31:35promotion that's going on right now my
1:31:37BMW if you have no in a BMW Lexus Audi
1:31:40etcetera you can get a multi-thousand
1:31:43dollar discount on a brand new Volvo so
1:31:45hmm how about them apples wait do you
1:31:47trade it in or just buy you owning it
1:31:50just by owning it because they're trying
1:31:51to they're trying to get owners of other
1:31:56luxury marques mark Sparky's whatever
1:31:58those things get luxury owners to come
1:32:02to Volvo and so just by having one in
1:32:04the family we got I think was three
1:32:06thousand dollars off which is pretty
1:32:07awesome Wow so that was pretty cool but
1:32:10yeah buying a car is terrible
1:32:12it's terrible it's just a friggin
1:32:15nightmare from start to finish I mean if
1:32:17I didn't care about the cost of the car
1:32:19it'd be great no worries but it's
1:32:22terrible because not only buying a house
1:32:25the dealer's one and only job is to get
1:32:28asthma to extract all of the money from
1:32:31you and your one and only position is to
1:32:33try to extract as little as possible
1:32:36from from your own wallet so you know
1:32:39like miss the Baron in the chat is
1:32:42saying well could I've just paid MSRP
1:32:44sure I could have but that would have
1:32:46been I almost ten thousand dollars more
1:32:49than we paid like no that's no I'm not
1:32:52made of money so no I'm not going to do
1:32:54that oh my god I hate I hate buying a
1:32:58car I just I don't want to do it for a
1:33:00long time and that's why I think that in
1:33:02part of the reason I mean Aaron who
1:33:03loved her Mazda as I said but part of
1:33:05the reason that she didn't want a new
1:33:06car was because she did want to go
1:33:07through this and it's just it's a
1:33:09freaking nightmare I hate it so what
1:33:11kind of silver did you get I think it's
1:33:13just silver silver I forget that what
1:33:15the official silver metallic osmium gray
1:33:17metallic no be Umbra is what I really
1:33:20thought would be good oh that the color
1:33:21options on this car are friggin terrible
1:33:23unless you get into like the super gray
1:33:25metallic no I believe it was just silver
1:33:29the osmium is what I thought looked the
1:33:31best of the available options so it's a
1:33:33xc90 momentum which is the cheapest xc90
1:33:36they make however within xc90 Momentum's
1:33:39you can get 5 v seat or 7 seat and we
1:33:42got the 7 seat one with the bright
1:33:45silver metallic we like I was starting
1:33:47to say we I thought the osmium gray
1:33:49actually looked better but um but we
1:33:52ended up with silver because that's the
1:33:53one that the dealer could get their
1:33:54hands on and make a deal a good deal on
1:33:55what engine you get so you get T 5 or t6
1:33:58so it's 86 which is because as soon as
1:34:01you go third row that means you're
1:34:03getting a t6 so it's a t6 all-wheel
1:34:06drive so it's you've had to get the fast
1:34:08engine
1:34:09well not exactly so here's the thing the
1:34:11xc90 ranges from forty or forty five
1:34:13thousand dollars to a hundred in ten
1:34:16thousand dollars or something like that
1:34:17I saw that it's like a Porsche could
1:34:20just double the price of the car with
1:34:22options that's it yeah because well what
1:34:24it is is they make a version I forget
1:34:25the name of
1:34:26doesn't a great thing yeah well but not
1:34:28only is it a v8 hybrid but beyond that
1:34:30it's actually a four seater
1:34:31so the back is just blocked off and it's
1:34:33clearly like an executives I'm going to
1:34:36be chauffeured in the SUV sort of thing
1:34:39but anyway so yeah so ours was ours we
1:34:42started as cheap as you could go in
1:34:44terms of the trim and then made it seven
1:34:48seats so that makes it slightly fancier
1:34:50and then it's actually pretty darn well
1:34:52optioned which is great so it has pretty
1:34:55much all of the the bits and bobs that
1:34:56we could possibly want but it's pretty
1:34:59cool I mean I haven't driven this one
1:35:01yet we did do an overnight test drive
1:35:03several months ago of a less loaded one
1:35:05and you know it does have car play which
1:35:08I've played with very briefly when we
1:35:10test drove it and it was really nice
1:35:12there are definitely problems with it
1:35:14but it was really nice it has like the
1:35:16bird's-eye view it has a heads-up
1:35:17display so a lot of it is a lot of it is
1:35:20very similar to the m5 actually or
1:35:21reminds me of the m5 but I'm really
1:35:24looking forward to it it has a heated
1:35:26steering wheel with which we've never
1:35:27had before it parks itself which is
1:35:29something we've never had before it's
1:35:30got an automatic just like the new m5
1:35:34watching that but that makes me sad with
1:35:38what they've done to the m5 is sad
1:35:41indeed
1:35:42oh and it's both supercharged and
1:35:44turbocharged how about that that's
1:35:46possible yeah so I I didn't even read
1:35:49into this much but I I think the the
1:35:51idea is that the supercharger which is
1:35:53belt driven is good for low rpm like
1:35:56when you're just taking off and then the
1:35:57turbocharger is better once you've got
1:35:59some some motion going and once you have
1:36:01some RPMs it can do both because
1:36:03turbocharger is exhaust driven so right
1:36:05you know no competition for things that
1:36:07are driving the things that are blowing
1:36:08air and here engine indeed but I you
1:36:11know Aaron and I we got next to each
1:36:12other one week so I drove to the Volvo
1:36:14dealer and she drove separately to the
1:36:16Volvo dealer and then you know we were
1:36:17going to grab a late dinner afterwards
1:36:20and I got next to her at a stoplight and
1:36:22she took off with not any particular
1:36:24quickness but I could hear that
1:36:26supercharger whine coming from a Volvo
1:36:28again I would call it a truck I know
1:36:30it's not a truck but coming from a Volvo
1:36:31SUV and it's just like what why is that
1:36:35noise coming from it's just it's so
1:36:38weird
1:36:40but anyway so yeah so so far so good I
1:36:42mean we didn't really get a chance to
1:36:43play with it since we got home we got
1:36:46home put Declan to bed I had to do a
1:36:49little homework for analog which we're
1:36:50recording tomorrow I played in the car
1:36:52for two minutes
1:36:53realized they screwed up the
1:36:55registration on the car which is going
1:36:56to be delightful to work out and then
1:36:59came upstairs to record this so at a
1:37:02glance super nice we're really excited
1:37:05but I hate I hate buying cars you guys
1:37:08it's the worst well I think you know but
1:37:10you have to come to peace with in order
1:37:13to buy cars without having this just
1:37:15massive you know anxiety and negativity
1:37:18but the whole thing is that there's no
1:37:20way to buy a car and not lose a bunch of
1:37:23money like you're losing it somewhere
1:37:24you know somehow you're losing a bunch
1:37:27of money because a car is not an
1:37:29investment
1:37:30it's a giant depreciating usable you
1:37:33know disposable eventually asset so
1:37:36there is no way to own a car and have it
1:37:39not cost you a lot of money in some way
1:37:41mm-hm and so and all the different ways
1:37:44you can buy it you know different
1:37:46financing options leasing versus buying
1:37:47they're they're all just you're gonna
1:37:50lose a lot of money somewhere and when
1:37:52you go into the dealer you know that you
1:37:55know for a dealer if it hasn't you go
1:37:56Sheila prices which is most of them you
1:37:59know that they're gonna make a profit
1:38:01somewhere off of you you know like and
1:38:03and you eat you can look at it two ways
1:38:05you can look at it as well you know they
1:38:07got to make money to they have people to
1:38:08pay whatever else do you can also look
1:38:09at it as every cent I give them is me
1:38:12losing money unnecessarily because I
1:38:14don't care about them I just want this
1:38:16vehicle yeah and I feel both of those
1:38:17things and when you're talking about
1:38:21large amounts of you know large amounts
1:38:23of money like like you are with car
1:38:24margins like it's hard to feel a lot of
1:38:27sympathy for the person that you spent
1:38:2815 minutes talking to to think that they
1:38:30suddenly deserve $6,000 yes look you
1:38:33might you know you actually know I think
1:38:35I'll give you you know 100 bucks of this
1:38:39Marchant and I want the car for invoice
1:38:40like yeah that's it so you're right
1:38:42there's this constant pressure between
1:38:44like what you want and what they want
1:38:45but I feel like at some point in order
1:38:48to go through this and not feel horrible
1:38:52like you do right
1:38:53now like you just bought a new car well
1:38:55your wife just bought a new car and so
1:38:58you have a new car in the family and
1:38:59that's really cool for both of you and
1:39:00yeah and and this should be an
1:39:03unquestioned celebration especially
1:39:06given how rarely you guys buy new cars
1:39:08and and how much you love cars this
1:39:11should be a celebration time and instead
1:39:13you're being mad about this part of it
1:39:15or you're you're grumbly about it
1:39:17because yeah because you you know that
1:39:20somewhere you probably got screwed for
1:39:22some amount of money along the way oh
1:39:24yeah or or at least a lot of time so you
1:39:29can also think of it this way that
1:39:31dealerships don't necessarily make all
1:39:33or even most of their money from selling
1:39:35new cars so it could be that you
1:39:37happened upon a dealership in a
1:39:39situation in a particular car where the
1:39:41dealership didn't make any money off
1:39:43this sale or even lost money and they
1:39:45hope to make it up in this service
1:39:46department or you know on they screwed
1:39:48you on your trade-in or whatever it like
1:39:50they have ways to make money other than
1:39:52just raising other than just profit
1:39:54margins on cars they sell you and in
1:39:56certain situations you can get a car
1:39:58where the dealer gets little or no
1:40:00profit from the car but they will find
1:40:02some other way that they hope to get the
1:40:03money from you and so if you can
1:40:05convince yourself that you were in one
1:40:06of those situations that they let this
1:40:08go out the door for no profit in the
1:40:11hopes of making it up by charging you an
1:40:13arm and a leg for service then maybe you
1:40:16feel better about the purchase yeah but
1:40:18but I think they're you know the reality
1:40:20is you got a new car it costs a lot of
1:40:23money but you have a new car enjoy it
1:40:26and no matter how you did this it was
1:40:28gonna cost you a lot of money you know
1:40:30whether it cost you I don't know what
1:40:31this cost so you know what let's say
1:40:32whether it cost you like forty five
1:40:35thousand dollars or forty six thousand
1:40:37dollars like that's not going to you
1:40:39know if you look at it absolute terms I
1:40:41go on I might have be able to save a
1:40:43thousand dollars that's a lot of money
1:40:44but you look at in relative terms of
1:40:46what you're paying for this car it's
1:40:47like okay that's a small difference it's
1:40:49not going to make me angry for a month
1:40:53over this like let's just enjoy it right
1:40:55and I think it's it's the only the only
1:40:57emotionally healthy way to look at car
1:40:59purchases and believe me I've been on
1:41:00both sides of those like I've had a lot
1:41:02of angry car investments over time but
1:41:06you know mostly before the show happened
1:41:08I had a lot of cars and not not always
1:41:11have gone well or have been financially
1:41:13prudent but the the enjoyment you get
1:41:17out of this like that should be
1:41:19untarnished as much as possible and it's
1:41:21hard when it's this much money because
1:41:23you know it's hard to spend this much
1:41:24money and just be flippin about it but
1:41:26you love cars you've been waiting for a
1:41:30long time and talking and debating about
1:41:31which car to get for this role for Aaron
1:41:33for a very long time enjoy it just in
1:41:36just enjoy it and it's it's kind of like
1:41:39the same philosophy of John like he and
1:41:42was it wasn't you John or Merlyn talking
1:41:43about when you go to Disney to just kind
1:41:46of like know that it's gonna cost you a
1:41:47fortune and just plan for the head of
1:41:49time and then when you're there just
1:41:50enjoy it that was me
1:41:51yeah I figured as you see like I you
1:41:53kind of have to do that Casey with with
1:41:55car purchases like you know it's gonna
1:41:58cost you a fortune somehow at the end of
1:42:00it you're gonna have something that you
1:42:01love it's gonna be really nice so just
1:42:04accept it no no you're gonna get screwed
1:42:07somewhere and then try to move on from
1:42:10that or don't let it get to you so much
1:42:12and just enjoy the thing yeah it's funny
1:42:14you say that because so this you know
1:42:17the process started with you know me
1:42:18going to the dealer just cold and being
1:42:21like okay you know what do you what do
1:42:22you have roughly what it's that cost
1:42:23bubble I was it was way out of our price
1:42:25range so then we tried the Costco thing
1:42:28because Costco supposedly says okay we
1:42:30have pre-negotiated you know certain
1:42:32cars with certain options I did that the
1:42:35past two cars I bought two we did not
1:42:37impressed with their price both times
1:42:38yeah same so in when we went to the
1:42:40local dealer and said oh by the way we
1:42:41didn't tell you before we're Costco D
1:42:43people and they basically said okay
1:42:44whatever that means you get a couple
1:42:46hundred dollars off whoo
1:42:47and then we try true car and all that
1:42:50did all that is in my experience I
1:42:53shouldn't say this is though it's
1:42:54factual but in my experience all true
1:42:56car is is a sales funnel for car
1:42:58dealerships so then you get blown up
1:42:59with via email and phone with people who
1:43:02are not interested in making a deal
1:43:03they're just interested in having
1:43:04somebody new to chase whatever so what I
1:43:08ended up doing like I think I said
1:43:09earlier is I just had you know two or
1:43:10three dealers bidding against each other
1:43:12but it got to the point that once I got
1:43:15Richmond to a price point that I thought
1:43:17was fair which
1:43:19only happened because I had gotten other
1:43:21dealers to make pretty aggressive
1:43:23opening offers then at that point I'm
1:43:25like going back and forth about $100
1:43:27here $200 there $100 hundred hours here
1:43:30200 hours there and it occurred to me to
1:43:31your point Marco what am I doing here
1:43:33like at this point I'm there right I
1:43:38mean I don't want to talk about exactly
1:43:41how much the car was but you know a
1:43:42hundred or two hundred dollars in the
1:43:44grand scheme of things on a car that's
1:43:46you know of this price is nothing well
1:43:50that's how they get you though that's
1:43:51something about things we go
1:43:54they cost thousands and thousands of
1:43:55dollars you're like well when I'm
1:43:56spending these tens of thousands when
1:43:58I'm spending five figures anyway a
1:44:00couple hundred bucks
1:44:01there's nothing whereas if you are
1:44:03spending a hundred bucks a couple
1:44:06hundred bucks on top of that you'd be
1:44:07like whoa but it's the same amount of
1:44:10money in both cases yeah I'd be really
1:44:12careful with large purchases that you
1:44:14couldn't slip into that sure I'll get
1:44:16the body-colored key fob for 500 bucks
1:44:19it's nothing compared to the present
1:44:20payments like don't do it just think you
1:44:22were doing the right thing although did
1:44:24you write you sent us a link to a
1:44:25picture is this your actual car but the
1:44:27link I put in the in the chat which I
1:44:29will not be putting the show notes is
1:44:30the actual car yeah so it looks white
1:44:32that's all I'm gonna say about it does
1:44:33look white no you're right it does this
1:44:35is a very light silver about a really
1:44:39big white no I mean I don't think it
1:44:44looks bad I I mean I don't know anything
1:44:46about SUVs really like they don't appeal
1:44:48to me so I have a hard time judging them
1:44:50but or as they go this looks pretty nice
1:44:52yeah I mean I'm looking forward to it
1:44:55well it does look y-you know that's a
1:44:57very light silver without question
1:44:59without question maybe I mean you know
1:45:01what I'll do is I'll put that one of the
1:45:02pictures in the show notes so I'm not
1:45:04gonna put the link to like the listing
1:45:05and it's probably to disappear any
1:45:06minute anyway but I'll put a link to the
1:45:08picture then people can reverse image
1:45:09search it's not gonna do you want I
1:45:12think it might just be overexposed there
1:45:14are a couple of angles where it starts
1:45:15to look silver it does look that way
1:45:16yeah but follow John's advice of that I
1:45:19love like after telling you to like try
1:45:21to reduce anxiety about this purchase
1:45:22the fact that John led with that's how
1:45:24they get you is amazing but
1:45:32the you know I feel like that's how the
1:45:34that's how they get you rationale is
1:45:36good when considering extras and options
1:45:39however when when just agonizing over
1:45:42the the bulk of this price and like the
1:45:45purchase price the asking price the
1:45:47profit margin and the invoice price all
1:45:48this stuff like this is where it's it's
1:45:50it's a good time to just say you know
1:45:53what I'm gonna be spending a lot of
1:45:54money on this I'll try to be responsible
1:45:56but it's not worth you know agonizing
1:45:59about it forever because keep in mind to
1:46:00like and this is this is one area where
1:46:02a lot of people get caught up there is
1:46:04there is a value that it might be hard
1:46:07to quantify but there is a value to your
1:46:11own mental health regarding you know the
1:46:14surrounding this so you are not only
1:46:15spending a lot of time trying to extract
1:46:18the negotiations out of the dealer's so
1:46:20like you know the first half of the time
1:46:23that you spend on that is probably worth
1:46:24it but then you get diminishing returns
1:46:25after that and so that's yeah so you
1:46:27know there's that issue of like time
1:46:29spent that it's worth keeping that in
1:46:31check and then also like if you're gonna
1:46:34get all mad about something that's a
1:46:36hundred dollars it's like okay well are
1:46:38you doing is that kinda like ruin an
1:46:39evening for you is is gonna ruin a few
1:46:42evenings is it gonna ruin a week for you
1:46:44are you gonna be mad for a week over a
1:46:45hundred dollars is that worth it to you
1:46:47are you gonna get mad in front of your
1:46:49kid about something like this how is
1:46:52that gonna make him feel is that worth a
1:46:53hundred dollars to you like there's a
1:46:55cost to you and and to to your health
1:46:59and to your family and to the mood
1:47:01around you the people around you when
1:47:04when things bother you too much and so
1:47:07sometimes it's actually worth just
1:47:09saying you know what fine I'll I'll I'll
1:47:10get screwed for the hundred bucks
1:47:11because I don't want to deal with it for
1:47:13the next week and so and I don't know if
1:47:16you did any of that cuz I wasn't there
1:47:18look she's probably a good thing but but
1:47:22a lot of people have trouble seeing the
1:47:25perspective on that and and finding that
1:47:28balance and I've had trouble with this a
1:47:29lot before or two and this is something
1:47:31I've only more recently started thinking
1:47:34more about and there's a lot of value to
1:47:40yourself being able to just move on from
1:47:43something yeah I
1:47:45I oftentimes think that that you can be
1:47:48a little cavalier about or fat maybe a
1:47:50little fast and loose about how you
1:47:52spend your money given that you impulse
1:47:54bottom you know oh this really expensive
1:47:56TV and all that jazz but III absolutely
1:47:59a hundred percent agree with you that
1:48:00the key here is to get get the purchase
1:48:05down to a place where you think you're
1:48:07not getting screwed to where you think
1:48:10you're you're doing okay and then at
1:48:12that point when you're nickel and diming
1:48:14the dealer or yourself I'm is it really
1:48:18really worth it anymore you know it got
1:48:20to the point that I was just stressing
1:48:23myself out over you know this little bit
1:48:26of money that yes $100 like I don't mean
1:48:29to say that $100 isn't a lot of money
1:48:31I'm not trying to say that at all
1:48:33$100 is absolutely a lot of money what
1:48:36I'm saying is there comes a time where
1:48:37you have to say to yourself you know
1:48:38what this just ain't worth it
1:48:40it's just not worth continuing to do
1:48:43this to yourself and that's that's where
1:48:45I eventually got is just it's it's not
1:48:48worth it for me to continue to stress
1:48:50about this and so in the end I am super
1:48:54happy about the purchase I think it's
1:48:56gonna be really great for the family I
1:48:58think I'm really looking forward to the
1:49:00car we've never had a Volvo I don't
1:49:02think anyone in our extended families
1:49:04have had a Volvo I've certainly been
1:49:05around them in the past but I'm really
1:49:09looking forward to it and at a glance it
1:49:11seems super nice it has so many bits and
1:49:13bobs from the technology point of view I
1:49:15mean it's its own it apparently like one
1:49:18of the things we did unbeknownst to us
1:49:19was the dealer signed us up for like a
1:49:21three-month trial on AT&T because the
1:49:23thing is its own Wi-Fi hotspot like yeah
1:49:26it's got carplay as I mentioned before
1:49:28it's got the I think I said it's got the
1:49:30bird's-eye view so when you park you
1:49:32know it although I don't think it's
1:49:34quite as good as the m5s was but anyway
1:49:35as you park it'll show you everything
1:49:37around you and has of course backup
1:49:38camera and all that jazz it has the
1:49:40three row seating which to answer
1:49:42somebody in the chat so the reason we
1:49:45got the third row seating is because we
1:49:46want the option of putting like friends
1:49:49or many adults or really in a lot of
1:49:51cases just having plenty of storage
1:49:53space in the back because you look at
1:49:55your average x5s trunk and it's
1:49:58not that big given how big the car is
1:50:01and I think part of the problem here is
1:50:03that Aaron's Mazda was not a terribly
1:50:08large car but had a cavern of a trunk
1:50:12it was just preposterous ly large and so
1:50:15she didn't really if she's gonna get
1:50:16this big you know SUV she's not gonna
1:50:18want to give up on that tremendous trunk
1:50:20and I don't think that's unreasonable
1:50:23so yeah so it's super nice it
1:50:27theoretically will parallel park itself
1:50:29it theoretically will perpendicularly
1:50:32park itself I think by backing in
1:50:34although I'm not a hundred percent sure
1:50:35Wow I didn't even think about that man
1:50:36if it doesn't back in I'm gonna be
1:50:37furious we have to return it exactly so
1:50:43so yeah so it's yeah I'm really looking
1:50:47forward to I say looking forward to it
1:50:48only because like I haven't driven it
1:50:50yet and we haven't really played with
1:50:52all the technology stuff yet but it's
1:50:55it's tough because here it is it's like
1:50:57such a monumental day and moment in our
1:50:59lives and it was slightly miserable
1:51:01because I was sad to see the monster go
1:51:03when aaron was devastated to see the
1:51:04monster go she wanted the new car it's
1:51:06not like I'm compelling her to get a new
1:51:07car but she was devastated to see that
1:51:09car go but you know it's also it's all
1:51:14it's like that ah thank god that's over
1:51:17with because I don't want to ever want
1:51:19to do that crap again you know it's that
1:51:20that that release that just finally and
1:51:24so yeah I'm not sure if I'm gonna do any
1:51:27sort of formal review for either the
1:51:30website or my quote-unquote YouTube
1:51:32channel I mean I have a channel that has
1:51:33a single video on it
1:51:35you can just call it your vlog it's okay
1:51:36yeah totally
1:51:38but yeah so far so good it seems really
1:51:41nice and I'm really looking forward to
1:51:44spending more time in it and getting to
1:51:46check out all the bits and bobs and
1:51:47whatnot should have thought about moving
1:51:49to a different state so you wouldn't
1:51:51have to have that stupid registration
1:51:52sticker in the middle your windshield I
1:51:54no doubt that it's not actually is the
1:51:58one in Aaron's off center yeah so I'm
1:52:00gonna say is it a little bit yeah it's a
1:52:03little bit to the left it almost doesn't
1:52:05matter because it being anywhere near
1:52:07the middle of your windshield is so
1:52:08awful to the fact that it's
1:52:10Center is like a secondary concern but
1:52:12if I move I would probably move to like
1:52:14Pennsylvania or North Carolina where I
1:52:16don't recall where the stickers are
1:52:17there but at least front damn licensed
1:52:20down drives me insane that we have to
1:52:22have those on our cars by the way I've
1:52:24seen this picture of your gloriously
1:52:26white car next to Aaron's new allegedly
1:52:29silver car that is really light silver
1:52:33to be fair but not very
1:52:35different-looking cars now I miss
1:52:37Aaron's car Aaron's car look at that
1:52:39well what a great 90s car that was
1:52:46totally a 90s car yeah it is oh I'm
1:52:51sorry I was so happy now I'm so angry at
1:52:53the two of you that's all car shaped and
1:52:57everything yeah that's awesome it
1:52:58doesn't look that different from my from
1:52:59my very well-loved 96 Maxima that I had
1:53:02mmm it's a 2007 mazda 6 you guys well
1:53:06you got to do this it doesn't mean it
1:53:07was designed 2007