The Accidental Tech Podcast

234: Everybody Has Asterisks


  when we last saw our heroes they were

  doing all the things they normally do

  but today they do something different

  this is the Q&A episode all right so it

  is still in a teepee time Friday the 4th

  of August but most of you listening are

  probably listening somewhere on or

  around the 9th of August and we did this

  because as we covered last episode we

  didn't plan our vacation as well in any

  case oh yeah we're gonna do a Q&A

  episode so we had solicited had being

  the keyword solicited questions via

  Twitter are you telling our audience to

  please stop asking questions now is that

  what that means well you can certainly

  continue to ask questions but we are not

  planning another Q&A episode for at

  least a year you can ask but they're

  pretty much going into the ether but

  what about the S key TP segment that

  we're gonna add to the show yeah I I

  would I would like to keep the questions

  going oh I mean they don't have to be

  any questions because there's like two

  of them but alright the the the hosts

  have spoken we have a just two or three

  people ask a question every week all

  right fair enough so we are going to do

  this in quasi chronological order we

  have selected here's the thing they were

  going into the spreadsheet but I was

  afraid if I tried to sort them that it

  would like mess with the automate I

  don't know like whatever yeah we're

  gonna go from top to bottom in this

  document I think if you can't see the

  document you can't say I think it turns

  out that adding every single tweet with

  this hashtag to a giant spreadsheet and

  having no way to like filter or upvote

  or sort them at all

  might not be the best tool for this job

  turns out well I am happy for you to

  coordinate the replacement my friend

  because this seems like the lowest

  impact way to me I agree with you it is

  not ideal but it's the lowest impact

  version I got are we supposed to be

  using things like reddit is that a thing

  are we supposed yeah that is what the

  reddit's are for is no we're not

  supposed to be doing

  that's question number one answered

  okay well that said I if anyone if

  anyone on the show off the show wants to

  make replacement that's better than the

  spreadsheet I won Dorsett it would be it

  we probably should have some way to like

  AB voter down vote and some way for like

  one of the admins which would be us to

  say like I read this question work is

  not gonna answer so just get you know

  kill it yeah but like I'm like read and

  I'm not sure this needs to be publicly

  accessible whatever all right let's do

  it okay so the show notes for this

  episode may or may not exist we'll see

  what happened but because it's basically

  just a bunch of questions and answers

  and so I'm just gonna try to MC this and

  do the best I can with names with

  questions etc and we're gonna dig in

  with Gulick who asks hey why no more

  toaster reviews John the toaster reviews

  were a sponsorship believe it or not I

  know you don't remember that but like

  they weren't just like hey you want your

  toasters it actually adds four cards

  against humanity' but instead of an ad

  read they wanted me to do toaster views

  so they are not advertising

  quote-unquote advertising on this show

  anymore don't have any other campaigns

  so that's why there's no more toaster

  abused and if they did they wouldn't do

  toasters again so you're not gonna get

  any more toaster reviews and we have had

  many people suggest new things that we

  could have a series of reviews for and

  honestly none of them sounded as funny

  as that like that was such a great thing

  it had a wonderful progression it ended

  I don't think it could have continued

  indefinitely I think it was pretty much

  done when it ended and every other

  suggestion we've seen since then has

  been less funny

  so yeah we know buddy has tackled

  anything more than that and I think it

  probably won't happen it least in that

  format and those suggestions weren't

  from sponsors right that sponsorship is

  the key part of this endured like in the

  middle of a tech podcast let's talk

  about toasters for five minutes unless

  it was a sponsorship behind it yeah like

  and I think one of the one of the

  funniest things about that was like you

  know cards against humanity' and I'm we

  later came to learn that the person who

  was organizing all this there was Alex

  Cox now of due by Friday Fame so and and

  like they really

  no they weren't just sending random

  toasters like there was a clear

  progression like getting like from the

  normal ones slowly into the really

  bizarre and crazy horrible things like

  those big like breakfast stations I

  could make the egg on top and stuff like

  that like it was clearly in this

  wonderful progression that it was it was

  just so well done and you got to give

  cards against humanity' credit for that

  incredible run yeah completely agree

  with you Cathy wise writes in what

  cameras are you using now and so I will

  begin I am using the same camera that we

  got shortly before Declan was born

  that's an olympus om-d am 10 which is a

  truly terrible name it is a Micro Four

  Thirds camera I have a prime lens for it

  that is what I use generally speaking

  and if you remember from the last

  episode which in a teepee time happened

  about 15 minutes ago um I also have a

  zoom lens which I actually quite liked

  and I was going to argue with you mark

  oh when you were saying oh you can't get

  a zoom lens that you know covers all

  three parts of the triangle if you will

  but as you were talking you would

  mention well you know if you do have a

  decent zoom lens that means it's

  exorbitantly expensive and still

  probably has some other concessions and

  that is the case for me the zoom lens I

  have was like eight hundred dollars or

  something like that and otherwise it's

  very nice it's left 2.8 I think it's a

  hundred to three hundred millimeters in

  regular cameras I forget what it is in

  Micro Four Thirds but um but anyway I

  liked it a lot but it it was very

  expensive Marco what are you using I am

  mostly using my iPhone which really sad

  but that is the reality of it we do have

  the 5d Mark for now in our family like

  we actually had we had for years ever

  since they came out we had the 5d mark

  ii which came out I think in 2007 or

  2008 something like that and it was late

  2008 and so we had that since then and

  it was great but it was getting along on

  the tooth and in a lot of different ways

  and so for a little while

  I had a a Sony phase and because the the

  Sony a series of cameras first I had a

  little RX one then

  I had the a7 r2 and those are awesome

  cameras in a lot of ways but I found

  I'll make it brief because we've talked

  about this before I have found that I

  generally preferred the speed and

  handling and battery life of full-sized

  SL ARS to the little Sony mirrorless

  cameras and I think over time that will

  probably eventually change back as this

  little Sony's get better you know the a9

  has it has now come out and it solves

  some of the problems I had it makes

  certain things worse so maybe maybe

  there will be an a7 r3 at some point or

  an a9 mark 2 or something like that that

  I might go back for but for now I'm very

  happy and in the world of big Canon SLRs

  when I need to fit fancy photos but I

  take fancy photos less and less every

  year my wife takes them much more often

  and she is way way better for

  photographer than I am

  so most of like the the good pictures of

  our family and stuff are taken by her

  and so that kind of frees me up to do

  mostly the casual stuff so that's I'm

  shooting mostly on my iPhone if I shoot

  anything at all I'm still using my sony

  a6300 i thought of trading into for

  6,500 those right up until I saw that

  the battery life was slightly worse and

  I really much did it for me because the

  battery life in 6300 is just barely

  enough like I have two batteries and on

  vacation I never needed to swap the

  batteries even a day at the ocean but I

  come close and so I don't think that can

  give up that whatever 10% battery life

  and the 600 is more expensive and so

  I've never I've never done this swap I

  stopped looking at it I'm still you know

  I was still recommending 6,500 or with

  the 6300 as long as you can deal with

  the battery life but be sure that you

  can because that's that's a big quality

  of life issue so I'm happy with that

  the only new lens I got recently was

  that is that big zoom I forget which one

  it is but it's one of the sony ones it's

  not it's not a very good line it's like

  whatever it's what is it 55 to 300 so

  it's a pretty big range again adjusting

  for what that is on a PC sensor it's not

  you know those are the full frame

  numbers still like my 50 millimeter to

  prime the best I have my own

  super-expensive zoom that

  sixteen to seventy and there's over a

  thousand dollars and that is my sort of

  general purpose lens that I keep on the

  thing it's not as good as fifty Prime

  and it doesn't zoom as long as the big

  zoom but it's kind of a nice

  all-arounder and to get a reasonable

  okay all around or a thousand bucks so

  yeah indeed also from kathy wise did the

  last show which was actually two shows

  ago if I'm doing this mental math right

  shame you into clearing out your

  application folders no it did not

  nope not only did not shame me into

  cleaning out my application folder but I

  realized after we finished that show

  that I was just looking at slash

  applications I also have a tilde slash

  applications with way more things way

  more things that's like an old an old

  school next early Mac OS ten or a thing

  of having an applications folder in your

  home directory which you could totally

  have and the OS knows about it and gives

  it the little a icon but only weird

  people do that all right moving on uh-oh

  plez asks which ad blocker do you guys

  did actually Marco choose it's not you

  guys which ad blocker did Marco choose

  I'm kind of you know I'm I I was for a

  long time so as soon as I killed peace

  within I think a month or two I stopped

  using it too and you kind of just to be

  fair and kind of felt wrong for me to

  use it and no one else did I switched to

  one blocker back then and one blocker is


  it's I don't have really much bad to say

  about it or much great to say about it

  it's just if you're gonna go with one of

  those mass-market blockers one blocker

  at the time I I looked was the best one

  I have noticed though over time more and

  more sites are broken by it and and

  there was a there was one of the iOS 11

  betas where it was not working due to

  some limits that had changed so I went

  looking and I started using better which

  is better why it's a paid app and then

  it's like five bucks they have a Mac

  version and the iOS version which is

  nice and the Mac version can't keep

  itself up to date which is nice it's a

  little like menu bar extra thing and so

  I've been trying better out it doesn't

  seem to block as much stuff as one

  blocker but it also doesn't break as

  many sites and it seems to block enough

  that works for me and it seems to get

  regular updates so right now I'm using

  better but I've only been using it for

  maybe a few weeks at most so it's hard

  for me to really say you should

  definitely go buy this but if you're

  looking to buy something right now

  that's the one I would start with John

  any thoughts I also use one blocker for

  the record but John any thoughts I'm

  also using one blocker but occasionally

  I don't know sometimes it gets turned

  off and I don't notice for a while I

  don't have a good blocker situation

  going on I'm you know and half the time

  when things don't work I do a little

  long hold down on the reload to reload

  with that blocker some I think some

  sites get me more obnoxious one the

  Boston Globe is like you're running an

  ad blocker or I don't like you whatever

  and it's like alright well fine I gotta

  learn not to even tap those links and

  some site I think it's like the Atlantic

  or something like that is like sorry

  something is wrong and we can't serve

  you ads and so I reload without content

  blockers and it says the same thing like

  what do you want me to do things like or

  like you're running an income unit

  I'm not I'm not an income UNAM oh I'm

  just on my phone and I want to read your

  website and I turn everything off and

  you still and the worst thing is it does

  it with like a sheet that goes down over

  the actual article you just want to like

  right click and spend complete node on

  your phone it's like this is Casey

  occasionally goes off on his little

  angry rants about how he feels

  constrained by iOS I have that in small

  degrees too and it's basically whenever

  I do anything on a webpage and I realize

  I don't have access to my web developer

  tools and I feel just just completely

  crippled it's like it's just a stupid

  web it's just a just freaking did let me

  delete it like it's nice just saw the

  articles right there so here's what I do

  I this is what I literally do to find

  out if I want to actually read the

  article I do a long press to read the

  slug in the URL hoping that it's

  something sensible sometimes it's not or

  repeatedly revisit the page and tried to

  read the headline before the stupid

  thing slides down I'm like I get you

  know three words and oh it slid down and

  then every though three words and just

  to find out is this a story that I want

  to bother going to a quote unquote real

  web browser and you know looking at or

  whatever anyway websites are annoying

  you guys try way too hard to really if

  if a site makes it difficult for me to

  read an article I just close it and I

  move on because like you know what

  no matter how good of a writer you are

  or no matter how great of journalists

  you are or whatever else there's a lot

  of things to read out there on the web

  and if you're gonna make it hard for me

  to read yours I'm just not going to read

  it and that might be like if if you have

  a site with like an anti ad blocker

  blocker thing if you won't let me read

  the site with an ad blocker that's a

  fair game I I respect that decision of

  yours but that means I'm not going to

  trim off my blocker I'm just not going

  to read it like that's but if that's the

  option you presented then fine that's

  what I'm saying like I'm I'm willing

  like oh you have an ad bugger like fine

  I will turn off my ad blocker I'll turn

  it off I'll be likely reload without

  content blockers Here I am I'm ready to

  see your thing it's not being that a

  paywall not like they want me to sign up

  subscribe or pay money like there is no

  the site is just broken is what I'm

  saying this is a pretty well on site

  maybe it's the Atlantic or whatever it's

  like I'm doing everything you want me to

  do turn off all my blockers turn them

  off in settings not be an incognito mode

  there's no pay wall you're not asking me

  to sign up or subscribe you just every

  time I try to load it's like sorry I

  couldn't figure out something and I'm

  gonna put a big slide a big animated

  sheet down over the article that's

  perfectly good bit on there's no reader

  mode for people asking there's no you

  know websites man like do you ever

  testing the iPhone it's a popular

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  sponsoring our show alright Jack Johnson

  yes from New York City apparently has

  two questions that are related do you

  think it would be a good move for iTunes

  to offer a higher resolution audio file

  for download or streaming and then kind

  of tangentially related do you think

  part of the HEV C strategy is to set the

  groundwork for 4k streaming I will say

  that I don't think anyone really cares

  except Marco about high resolution audio

  coming out of iTunes and I don't I don't

  even care about that I'm surprised so as

  for all my like audio file nests when it

  comes to like selecting headphones and

  stuff I have never been swayed by like

  higher than CD quality audio files or

  lossless compression schemes I know a

  lot of people like these a lot

  think they can hear a difference I don't

  think you can but I know for sure that I

  can't I hold on though hold on how do

  you download your Phish concerts mp3

  they offer flack option I am stunned

  that's what I assumed you were gonna say

  no they offer flack for a few more

  dollars and there is so I have bought so

  quick quick background here fish sells

  all their live shows legally through

  their own site like a few hours after

  the show's end and you can buy a season

  pass and you can you can basically have

  have downloads and for sure they do for

  like a whole tour so I do this I've been

  doing this since something like 2009 or

  so and there was one tour early on that

  I bought in flack i pre-ordered it oh my

  gosh let me get the flag verge and I'll

  see if it's something different and it

  was such a pain because like first of

  all iTunes didn't support flack at the

  time I think I think it actually is

  finally having that in High Sierra I

  think but it didn't the time and and so

  I had all these massive files that first

  of all I didn't want to ever delete them

  because like when I paid for these

  massive files so there's taking up ton

  spacing the harder that I still had to

  transcode them to make them actually

  playable in anything I did play the

  original ones or there was C I think I I

  think one one time I transferred them to

  a lack or maybe I'd download maybe they

  sold them as a lack I forget so I did

  for a group of them transfer them and

  play them as lossless files as a lack

  files in iTunes and I just I couldn't

  tell the difference at all and there's

  there's lots of again there's lots of

  people who claim they can hit they can

  hear a difference there's a whole lot of

  tests that have been done that I've

  shown mostly otherwise but this is one

  of those things kind of like my

  subwoofer thing from last episode of

  like I do things my way and some people

  consider them insufficient or some

  people want better things and I think

  I'm just I don't I can't care anymore

  like if you want to do things your own

  way if you want to get massive files

  with you know 24 96 or 24:1 need to

  sample rates and if you want to have

  lossless encoding and you want your

  albums to take up a gig each fine it's

  hard drive space is cheap do whatever

  you want well I could not possibly agree

  with you more but I was expecting to

  snicker as you told me about how flack

  is the only answer so kudos to you sir I

  am stunned do you want audio that's

  lower quality and has like hiss and pop

  in it

  here we go something for Casey like I

  don't I think it's not the right move

  for Apple to offer hi Rosa no audio but

  if Apple ever gets to the point I don't

  think they will because again streaming

  is what everyone cares about now is

  Marco pointed out earlier slash on the

  last show but it would be a way to make

  the Ferrari you have purchasable down a

  little music hey can we charge more

  money for something that people perceive

  as better the answer is yes you can you

  so lossless or a higher bitrate or some

  combination thereof and the very small

  number of people who think that is

  worthwhile for them will buy it doesn't

  really matter if anyone can you hear the

  difference only matters whether they'll

  give you money in exchange for these

  goods which are able to be produced so I

  wouldn't totally rule it out I don't

  think it's some Apple needs to do at all

  but someday if buying music at all

  downloadable continues to be a thing

  some smart person in marketing may say

  we're leaving money on the table by not

  selling high-resolution audio and

  they'll just do it and charge more money

  for it and a couple people will buy it

  and it'll be a tiny bump in a graph and

  someone will get a good performance

  review yeah but anyway the thing is like

  there is demand for this there is

  absolutely demand for higher than CD

  quality sample rates and everything and

  higher bitrate

  format or more advanced formats or

  lossless formats there is definitely

  demand for that like most people don't

  even know like people who listen to the

  show probably unaware quite how many

  options there are for what basically

  amount to fancy iPods that sell today

  for like $400 or more that like their

  like their the Sony makes a bunch of

  them they're basically little you know

  pocketable portable audio players the

  you know size like a deck of cards like

  that kind of size class that have a

  headphone just like the old iPod Classic

  that play these super high bitrate files

  like they could actually output them and

  decode them with a fancy DAC and

  everything else

  this market exists people buy these

  things for like $400 but not a lot of

  people and there are streaming services

  things like Neil Young's paano things

  like even tidal which is a fairly

  decently sized streaming service now

  like streaming services that IV that

  have either been or even music sales

  service I don't think paano even was

  streaming I think it only sold stuff if

  it even still exists but anyway there

  are services that we've Excel you high

  bitrate music legally or that will let

  you stream them like tidal and they use

  these things as they use the quality as

  their main selling point but they don't

  really ever become mass-market they

  don't really ever get anywhere off the

  ground really the only reason title has

  gotten anywhere is because it has had

  exclusives like they've had exclusive

  album releases on there other than that

  they were like when they were when they

  were really only about the music quality

  they got nowhere the fact is most people

  don't care and most people don't need to

  care because for most of these gains

  there actually is no perceptible

  difference to most people so while Apple

  could sell high bitrate songs and stuff

  that would just be appealing to a very

  very small market in what is already a

  declining market which is the market of

  music sales so the second part of this

  about HEV C being part of 4k yep 100%

  like the 4k video is bigger HEV see is a

  higher efficiency codec it supports

  higher resolutions for like for video

  not just the images with the he thing

  anyway yes it's 100% part of that and

  that's why we're gonna see a 4k Apple TV

  and a TVC encoded content that plays on

  it I agree

  Adam sac writes in to say and this is

  the first in theme that I noticed which

  was try to get the ATP host to hate each

  other so he writes in if you had to use

  the daily text setup of one of your

  co-hosts for a week instead of your own

  whose devices would you choose and I

  will start off and I would probably

  choose Marcos because it is in general

  most similar to my setup

  obviously there are differences but most

  similar to mine and he has some pretty

  kick-ass headphones so win-win everyone

  would pick

  Margot's including Marco because Marcos

  yeah I would pick cases because

  non-retina sorry John you lose you

  shoulda picked my wife's you could pick

  the 5k iMac it's the one without image

  retention yeah that's actually better

  than mine that's funny

  Ian Marin rates in to say and I don't

  think I selected this as one to answer

  but I have a feeling I know who did Ivan

  Inouye to cord when's the ideal time to

  replace it it's at about eighty thousand

  miles no maintenance issues to date John

  did you perhaps star this as a question

  to me I did so the right time probably

  the best time to replace this Accord was

  right now or last year because the the

  best time to get an accord is at the

  tail end of a generation when they've

  worked all the kinks out of it and they

  have we always get like the special

  edition even though you don't get the

  special edition like they know how to

  build that generation of car has the

  most doodads and and you know nice

  things added to it and they figured out

  low and the first model to put the USB

  port in the wrong place or you know

  fiddle things like that's the time to

  get it the the first car versed in the

  new Accord I think the new Accord is is

  uglier than the old one but it does have

  a better infotainment system so that's

  the other time you can get us like the

  excitement of getting in on the first

  car and in your generation but in

  general when your court starts getting

  to be around 10 years old I feel like

  that's the time to if you want to have

  any chance of having any reasonable

  trade in on it or private sale whatever

  you want to do with it don't wait until

  the car is basically worthless or it's

  worth like a couple hundred bucks wait

  till it's you know it's still a couple

  thousand dollars for the value in your

  car it's before crap starts breaking

  like you said you know is 80,000 miles

  nothing as nothing as issued with it

  it's a no wait right it's getting to be

  around 10 years time to replace you know

  just as a point of comparison I pretty

  much agree with you but uh when we

  bought the Volvo we traded in Aaron's

  2007 Maz

  six which had a little bit shy of 80,000

  miles on it and as I believe I talked

  about on the show was pretty much a tank

  like that thing almost never had any

  problems and we got three thousand

  dollars in change for it I think

  Carmack's offered us three grand so it

  was not worthless by any means but I

  agree with you John that this is the

  kind of edge of the cliff I think and

  you go too much further and you're gonna

  fall right off that cliff

  Marco any thoughts on this nope

  good talk Joe Sullivan writes in is

  there anything that siracusa is in favor

  of or likes without any caveats

  reservations or asterisks and I have to

  I have to congratulate Joe Sullivan

  because there are about a million ways

  to ask this question like a big fat jerk

  and this was not one of them so well

  done that's a great question put too

  many things at the end of this question

  caveat reservations or asterisks well

  caveat you can I know what that means

  reservations mean it's all getting over

  they asterisk me like Oh something else

  in addition that you want to say about

  like the answer question there is

  nothing nothing so perfect come on

  that's right things that I really like

  but if press to say hey you really like

  Kiki's Delivery Service is there

  anything wrong with that movie well I

  mean cause it's actually probably

  closest like I can if pressed I can come

  up with asterisks for Kiki's Delivery

  Service sure of course you can right

  there is nothing is gonna be absolutely

  perfect if you can't if you literally

  can't think of anything wrong with it

  then you probably don't understand the

  thing but that doesn't mean like these

  are my favorite things in the whole

  world like overwhelmingly everything I

  feel about these is that they're great

  right so I think that qualifies them and

  I at that reasonable definition of is

  there anything that you are like without

  any caveats reservation like if someone

  says hey you know I need a good movie to

  watch and I say well if you've never

  seen the Empire Strikes Back watch watch

  Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back I'm

  not gonna add reservations

  oh but also here are some reservations

  about the Empire Strikes Back I'm gonna

  add no reservations there's no nothing

  to say about it so I would say that

  qualifies the only definitions are the

  pedantic one and which nothing qualifies

  for anybody or the reasonable definition

  in which this

  kinds of things that I really want to

  hear me things that really like listen

  to being comfortable very very often on

  that show are talking about things that

  really like you know for the video game

  journey television shows movies books we

  do we do talk about asterisks if you

  want to call it that but it doesn't mean

  we don't love them so I think this

  question is not a good question it's

  more than faster more than a reservation

  because the answer it got completing

  about the question I remember that's

  true of anybody like is there anything

  even ask you that you chose it is there

  anything you two like uncritically

  without caveat to reservation or

  asterisks I think if you're honest with

  yourselves you have to say that's not

  true for either of you either I mean I

  think the checker muffin up a number of

  good options your kids your wife your

  dog long island journey

  those are BS questions so you have

  reservations about your wife and your

  kids don't say you do ice cream you if

  you are if you think your spouse does

  not have any asterisks you are either

  newly married or willfully naive because

  everybody has asterisks everybody say

  yeah but they're always asked sounds

  like the tiniest little thing and now I

  was like could something be a little bit

  different of course of course always I

  don't even know where to go from here

  like and especially kids like no my

  child is perfect yes lots of parents

  think that hmm maybe a little bit less

  screaming like not you know like like

  three seconds less screaming in a

  lifetime of screaming would you accept

  that yes maybe if that poo hadn't

  exploded out the side of the diaper that

  one time when I had a new car would you

  always an asterisk so now you don't love

  your children because you didn't want

  the putu come out the side of the diaper

  and go all over your new car seats oh

  that's amazing

  we gotta move on otherwise we're never

  going to get rid get through this let's

  see what was next I have so many

  freaking tabs open I must be John

  siracusa Eduard level writes in what

  podcast you currently listened to and

  would recommend I listen to a ton of

  podcast but there's a couple that I

  would recommend the aforementioned due

  by Friday is excellent

  I will pitch one

  my or a couple of my co-host shows I

  think that reconcilable differences is

  phenomenal and so is under the radar but

  I will also pitch a couple others very

  quickly if you wanted to hear a smart

  person talk about conservative politics

  which you may or may not want the pen

  the ben shapiro show is very interesting

  and very good i don't listen every

  episode by any means it's like 45

  minutes and it's pretty much every

  weekday but when i have time all and i

  usually about once a week I'll catch it

  and I typically deeply deeply disagree

  with the things he thinks but

  nevertheless it is interesting I'll also

  say that wheel bearings is neutral by

  people who actually know what they're

  talking about we want to listen to that

  yeah I know right

  and then 20,000 Hertz is also very good

  think 99% invisible but specifically

  around sound so those are just some

  selections from my extraordinarily long

  list of podcasts that I listened to John

  since I've been tagging Marco more first

  more often let's let's go to you next

  I'm strong recommendation for Roderick

  on the line which I love flophouse

  obviously my my old probably oldest

  recommendation that show is still going

  obviously hello internet in cortex the

  pair of shows both involving CGP grey

  those are great

  Oh what else we got I'm scrum scrolling

  through overcast to look at I have way

  too many things and overcast was

  scrolling through their debug which I

  don't know if it's still ongoing but the

  back catalog of debug is great tech show

  where they talk to lots of important

  people in tech you should definitely

  check that out and you know there's tons

  more but I think it's a good place to

  get started Marco you guys have already

  mentioned pretty much everything I was

  going to say you know the usuals due by

  Friday hello Internet cortex roderick on

  the line as far as in the tech world

  again you've covered many good ones I

  would also add upgrade unreal AFM with

  Jason snow my curly that is probably my

  favorite tech show it's it's just really

  really great so yeah otherwise

  he does pretty much covered it yeah none

  in API you know and and what I love

  about I mean I could talk about podcast


  so I'll try not to but what I love about

  this is that none of us mentioned shows

  that were like the biggest podcast in

  the world Mendon MPI probably the

  biggest one we mentioned but when people

  think podcasting they so often will make

  an assumption like everybody listen to

  this American life where it's you know

  stuff like that but the fact is there

  isn't any podcast out there that

  everybody listens to and there and like

  the the the world of mass market or very

  very popular podcasts is still actually

  fairly diversified and there's a lot of

  people who listen to a lot of podcasts

  who don't listen to any of those big

  ones so this is it's part of what I love

  about podcasting is like it's so

  incredibly diverse and specialized that

  like I can look at so many podcasts and

  there and there there are so many

  amazing podcasts out there but I don't

  need to spend any time listening to

  things that aren't like really

  interesting to me and that aren't

  specialized to my interests because

  there's so much that is and that's just

  a part of what I love about podcasting

  and and you know my over cast list is

  huge I subscribed tons of things I was

  trying to give recommendations that

  maybe people might not go for like up

  you know I didn't recommend the talk

  show cuz I assume you know that show

  exists that it's good and you should

  totally listen to it like it didn't

  recommend this American life cuz I mean

  you know that show exists and it's good

  and you should listen to it right trying

  to find these slightly more obscure

  corners but that's the other thing I

  like about podcasts I subscribe to way

  more podcasts than I then I faithfully

  listen to like I'm not a podcast

  completionists I have tons of

  descriptions a few shows I keep up with

  very religiously but a lot of shows I

  let age and then go through five

  episodes at a time and a lot of shows I

  just pick and choose from that's the

  best thing not only do you not have to

  like oh there's only five podcasts that

  everyone listens to if you find a

  podcast that you really like and

  sometimes you find a podcast and you

  only have to listen to the episodes that

  you really like like even like being

  comparable like if they do an episode

  reviewing something you don't care about

  skip that episode like they're

  standalone but they're you know they do

  a thing about TV show that you didn't

  watch you're not interested in fine like

  just pick and choose that's the beauty

  of podcasting visuals in every episode

  of our show obviously oh yeah of course

  I mean how could you

  regular language writes in what do you

  think about the current state of Swift I

  would like to hear what John and Marco

  have to say about si I guess Casey a

  rant about Swift opens oh I think

  there's new lines missing here

  basically what do you guys think and

  maybe me talk about Swift open source so

  I will I guess round this out at the end

  so let's start with Marco and then go to

  John honestly I don't pay that much

  attention to what's going on in Swift I

  know I'm supposed to I know I should

  overcast contains some Swift code that I

  added you know to try cheaper stuff the

  language and and stuff but I'm still

  writing most couldn't you have to see

  and it's it's not really out of a

  judgment of Swift so much as it's just a

  pragmatism that I I still don't see a

  lot of motivation for you to switch I

  recognize that I should but I in

  practice don't John I would never picked

  it seems like it's chugging along I I do

  keep up with the things that are going

  on and it it's it still got you know

  challenges but it's making slow steady

  progress so I think Swift is moving in

  the right direction at varying speeds

  and we have to say about si no no that's

  that's not see the language I think

  basically the question was what do you

  guys have to say about Swift and what do

  I have to say specifically about Swift

  open-source so yeah I think your summary

  of Swift is good and in brief and I

  stick by our stand by it

  Swift open source is a double-edged

  sword I think I think that the problem

  that I have aspect of Swift open source

  is that it seems like a lot of the

  really really really academic like I'm

  trying to think of a way to say this

  without being pejorative but people who

  are much more interested in the academic

  side of programming languages seem to be

  the ones that are most vocal and most

  interested to participate on like the

  mailing lists and things of that nature

  where someone like myself which is not

  to say I'm like at the same caliber as a

  super academic but someone like myself

  who I like to think of as a reasonably

  smart guy but I don't really have any

  interest in like following the

  intricacies of what's going on in the

  mailing list I don't really have any

  interest in argue

  about you know different pitches that

  have been made via the mailing list I

  just want to get crap done man and to me

  I feel like swift open source it feels

  like from an outsider's point of view

  that maybe it could use a little more

  Stern direction from Apple to prevent

  the kind of meandering and the kind of I

  don't know language features that I find

  to be really really silly and not

  terribly helpful for actually just

  shipping products and that's where I

  kind of get a little frustrated but

  that's easy it's easy for me to throw

  stones from outside the glass house

  right and and really if I wanted to

  effect change what I should be doing is

  participating on the door mailing list

  that I'm lamenting I'm not sure you

  should be doing that because I'm going

  to put this out there language design is

  a different skill than being a

  programmer and using that language is

  entirely appropriate that the lists

  where people are designing the languages

  looks weird to someone who's like I just

  want to write my programs like you make

  the language and give it to me like they

  don't need to cross that word I think

  swift evolution I've seen a lot of

  languages I'm mailing lists and so

  evolution is above average believe it or

  not and maybe if you look in the outside

  this is the first time you follow the

  development of any language you can look

  like dominated by academics and weird

  and chaotic and a lot of bike shedding

  but in the grand scheme of things there

  they are above average and you know just

  coming so early to say look we're gonna

  have releases we're gonna exclude things

  from them and then you know like there's

  gonna be people discussing things enlist

  even though they say they're excluded

  from Swift serious but for like but in

  general I think they're pretty well

  behaved and I do want essentially

  language nerds or people like people

  with the skill the language designs

  skill and you know RPG parlance or

  whatever to be designing the language

  rather than having a bunch of people who

  just wanted to use the language throwing

  out the first idea that pops into their

  head that I think might make their

  they're like beginning language

  designers like I've been programming for

  20 years and I think a language would be

  cool how many languages have you design

  have you tried doing that what does it

  actually turn out to be so I like I like

  language design as a separate skill

  being developed among people who just do

  that and seeing them do their thing

  definitely does look weird

  I endure I also and part of why I have

  not adopted Swift more is that the idea

  of of investing my time into a language

  that is still very much a beta is a huge

  turnoff for me like I I do not I have no

  interest in participating in the design

  of this language I have no interest in

  beta testing this language for anybody

  in the same way like I don't want to

  beta test brakes on my car you know like

  I want to get the final brakes thank you

  and I want them to work and I don't have

  to I don't want to ever have to think

  about them or I never wanted to flick

  out or fail or cause me undo undo work

  it sound like a test loan or you don't

  want a bid that's the brakes that set a

  new firmware for your brakes last night

  while you were asleep like for me like I

  like especially like every summer when

  during beta season when like all the new

  stuff comes out and I see all the iOS

  developers I know complaining about

  something that Swift broke I am very

  happy to not be very reliant on it right


  and you know because the fact is like

  I'm in a different developer I don't

  have a lot of time I like and and the

  time I have to spend coding I have to

  spend it very wisely and the most

  frustrating thing for me I which is true

  of many people is fighting with my tools

  and so any language or part of my

  developer tool chain I'm going to try to

  minimize reasons that I would have to

  fight with it or the amount of work

  that's going to require from me to use

  and Swift while it does look like a you

  know a fairly I'm sure it will be good

  once it's done for me right now the

  reality of using Swift is still a lot of

  overhead and a lot of dealing with the

  changes as they come and dealing with

  weird things breaking sometimes and I

  just want to wait till it's all settled

  before I invest heavily into it because

  I have zero interest in being an early

  adopter for things like this all I want

  is for it to work so I can spend my time

  in other ways you know I will say that

  there are certainly annoyances and and I

  can't legitimately argue with anything

  that you've said but it feels like it's

  gotten a lot better over the last you

  know six to 12 months say oh yeah and

  and and the dabbling of done on the

  Xcode 9 beta by and large

  it's like it's a beta of course but by

  and large it looks really solid and so I

  think and of course you would say this

  every year right now is the time to dive

  in Marco it's all better than it ever

  was and you know it's the Year Linux on

  the desktop right it'll always be better

  the next year but it is not nearly as

  scary now as it once was but there's

  still dragons back there from time to

  time and I would also love to use Swift

  on the server like that's that's one

  thing that has me very interested in

  learning it because like the idea of

  learning one language that I can use in

  both places is incredibly attractive to

  me like that because that would be a

  great use of you know if I'm gonna learn

  more languages and master more

  frameworks being able to use the same

  one in both places basically makes it

  twice as valuable to me so I would love


  but it's all just so early and it to

  have basics like concurrency not worked

  out yet is like I just I need well yes

  and go right like it's just as worked

  out as the distant objective-c because

  you still have GCD and whatnot it's just

  that well I'm what I'm saying server I

  mean Linux though well ok fair but it my

  point is just that like concurrency I

  agree with you should be worked out any

  much better way but it's not like we're

  handcuffed now it's just that it's the

  existing GCD API

  well again maybe not on the server but

  at least on on the client it's the

  existing GCD API and it actually is a

  lot nicer in a lot of ways but but there

  should be something like you know

  everyone is calling for C sharps


  so we'll see what happens we are

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  Squarespace make your next move David

  Klein writes about two years ago you

  discuss women in tech and podcasting and

  even exchange hosts how do you feel

  today regarding women in tech this is a

  very good question which stresses me out

  because I feel like I'm gonna step on

  some landmine here but that being said I

  feel like we have made sweet not the

  three of us like we as a as a community

  have made a fair bit of positive strides

  but still have a almost equal amount of

  improvement left to make and I feel like

  people are paying a lot more attention

  to the fact that there's so much sexism

  in tech and it's such a crummy place to

  be a woman and I think the easiest

  example of this is people like regular


  knowing what a cesspool uber is slash

  was and regular people deciding to use

  lyft instead of uber which quick aside I

  used lyft

  in Chicago when Aaron and I were on our

  10-year wedding anniversary and it was


  worked great no different than uber and

  so I highly recommend it but anyway so

  we still have a ton of room like it's

  one of those things where we have taken

  like the tiniest littlest step forward

  but there's still like 85,000 miles in

  front of us so it's almost imperceptible

  Marco I I basically agree I mean I I

  unfortunately am NOT an expert in this

  topic you know a few few men and tech

  are you know there's that's not a


  um it's it's a huge problem and we still

  have so so long to go but we are talking

  about it now way more than it used to be

  talked about so even though I I don't

  have the knowledge to know whether it's

  actually making progress really I have

  no idea

  I would guess - making slow progress but

  we are talking about it and a lot more

  people ourselves included are much more

  conscientious of this being an issue

  than we used to be and that has to help

  - and there's obviously a lot more that

  we can all do and that we need to do all

  do but I do think that awareness is way

  better than it was and that will slowly

  start helping this problem yeah that's

  like the first stage of all these things

  is the very long process of getting

  people to be aware that this is an issue

  at all what's the issue what is the

  problem is this the thing that exists

  and that takes a really long time it's

  kind of depressing to me because my

  childhood like I felt like the whole the

  one of the previous names of a larger

  version this that the women's lib

  movement back in the 60s and 70s and

  even to the 80s was also in that stage

  of like hey raise awareness like women's

  liberation what do women do need to be

  liberated from what do you mean right I

  felt like we went through that and and

  then like that knowledge was lost

  somehow and now here we are back in the

  tech sector which is a microcosm of the

  larger world is like do we have to

  relearn that sexism exists apparently

  the answer is yes and we're learning it

  better and

  more thoroughly and with I think a

  clearer I'd picture and not accepting as

  many limitations as the previous you

  know feminist movements and women's

  liberation and all the other stuff but I

  still very strongly feel that we are in

  the awareness phase for everybody I've

  you know for me as well like and I do

  see some concrete signs of progress I

  find myself seeing I mean from my

  perspective a lot of what I see is like

  who's speaking at this tech conference I

  see and watch and hear about and get

  forwarded to me more really good talks

  by women at tech conferences as the

  circles I travel in and my twitter or

  whatever then I did several years ago

  and I feel like that is progress

  probably just progress in my awareness

  that that is a thing and also progress

  in the people I follow forwarding me

  those things and you know I get says

  like the fact that there can even be a

  story that has any real-world

  consequences to a company about hey this

  company is run by a bunch of sexist

  jerks and that actually like is a I

  think we hear about and be something

  anything literally anything happens

  about it maybe not the right thing maybe

  not the best things but something

  happens like if one extra person deletes

  their app like that is a tiny bit of

  progress but yeah that's that's pretty

  much how I feel how it's going and about

  us specifically on the show like we're

  still we still talk about it we still

  discuss it we still try to do what we

  can in the ways that we can you know

  it's it's a continuing struggle yep

  robin christopherson writes in which if

  any of the many rumored changes to the

  new iphone would actually make you

  decide not to upgrade if it comes to


  i'm gonna go on a very small rant about

  this i don't understand people who say

  and i can't think of a specific specific

  example of oh actually the touch bar is

  a great example i will never like the

  touch bar and I will never buy a Mac

  that has a touch bar that to me just

  doesn't make sense because it stands to

  reason that at least for portable Mac's

  the touch bar is going to be the future

  probably across the line it may not be

  for five years or something like that

  but it will probably be the future and

  even if the touch bar if you think

  that's a crummy example it doesn't

  matter my point is like

  just get on the bus the bus is pulling

  away get on the bus and you may not love

  it but get on the bus because what's the

  alternative go to Windows ha have fun

  and and so to me

  there may be something that I don't like

  about the new iPhones so for the sake of

  example I'm skeptical that I would

  terribly enjoy the face on lock and I

  would you know and I suspect I wouldn't

  miss touch ID but I mean I will

  certainly give it a shot and I will

  certainly give it a shot and if it ends

  up that I like touch ID better well then

  that's a stinky part of the new iPhone

  but everything else will be amazing so

  it'll all even itself out so I don't

  really understand the question but I

  don't really understand this question do

  you think the narrower view they're

  asking would make you not want to

  upgrade and when I saw this question I

  thought about like touch ID on the back

  if they couldn't if they can't get the

  touch ADEA under the screen for this

  generation but we know for a fact those

  other phones do this that fingerprint

  sensing under screen is a technology

  that exists it just you know wasn't up

  to Apple's caliber yet for whatever

  reason I might say if I was if it was my

  upgrade year which isn't by the way I

  might say oh I'm not gonna upgrade to

  see this phone I'll wait till next year

  when hopefully they'll have that sorted

  out or we even wait to the next

  generation please you know I have no

  problem waiting oh it's not like Casey

  was saying like oh I'm never gonna buy

  with touch bar like obviously eventually

  you're gonna have to get a new phone and

  eventually I would choose to get an

  iPhone but specifically like oh if they

  make a new form factor and it's the

  first male year and they had to make

  weird compromises and such ideas in the

  back even if it's just as simple as like

  they put touch ID in the back but I've

  never used touch ID in the back I'm not

  sure I like it I rather let a bunch of

  my friends who I know really well buy

  this phone and tell me about it so the

  next year I'll know whether I think I'll

  like it or like just play with them to

  store whatever so yes there are lots of

  weird things involving the phone that

  would make me decide not to upgrade but

  I don't think there's many things that

  would make me decide I'm never going to

  buy an iPhone again and that's that's a

  different question

  yeah I mean I I think pretty similarly I

  mean look we all know I'm gonna buy it

  regardless so why why even bother I mean

  you know III think the answer is you

  know I'm gonna do what I always do which

  is I'm going to buy the new thing

  immediately and then I complained or

  anything that's worse about it fair

  enough that's typically how these things

  tend to go I did not want to answer this

  question because this is another example

  of where I don't care

  but somebody and I think that person's

  name might be John siracusa has decided

  we should answer this question so

  stephen sand off writes tabs or spaces I

  honestly don't even have the faintest

  idea what my editors set to it's

  whatever the default for X code is don't

  care your monster don't even know I

  don't even know just pick one

  actually I can say the same thing so I

  know what it is in text made but for my

  iOS code or next code I actually have no

  idea which one it is but I will say in

  text made it's spaces but I this is the

  kind of like I'd feel about this a few

  weeks ago like it doesn't really matter

  because good tools let you switch

  between one or the other with like one

  command so it's it's it really doesn't

  matter at all no no no that's something

  a tab user would say it totally matter

  so let me tell you why so first of all

  I'm my ants aren't abs versus spaces is

  spaces and the reason I say space is

  because spaces are the same size

  visually everywhere but the whole point

  in tabs I thought is that you I can

  choose to have my tabs be a thousand

  right okay yep so now tabs now it's like

  okay well tabs are semantic in don't

  tell me how big has to be the problem

  with that is that I think good

  formatting in most not maybe some less

  in some programming languages good

  formatting needs to be done has

  instances in which you want to indent by

  less than one indentation level to align

  things right and if you use spaces

  everywhere there is no ambiguity and you

  can make it look like how you want it to

  look like if you use tabs

  some Joker is gonna set their tab to two

  and someone else is gonna have it set to

  four and someone's gonna have it set to

  eight and the part and the line where

  you use tabs but then use space to align

  a bunch of things is gonna look crazy


  spaces is the correct answer but I'm

  forced to use tabs at work and have for

  many years and so if you're working

  programmer you got to do what you got to

  do with the actual entrance spaces and

  and Chris lat agrees with me so there

  you go and that's all that really

  matters I bet that's gonna meet what

  eventually drives you to quit your job

  like eventually one day yours you're

  gonna hit that tab key for the last time

  and you're like that's it I'm done no I

  mean you still hate you still hit the

  tab key even wanted to space this but

  like I you I work changed both my brace

  style and the indenting character but

  this is what it means to be a working

  programmer it's too far wait what what

  is your preferred brace style

  many years ago I used bsd-style opening

  and closing on the same column mm-hmm

  for basically of my entire career up to

  like maybe 10 years ago and then I

  switched to forcibly switch to KN are no

  coddled else's come on people I'm a K&R

  person myself you know I used to hide

  first why I had no idea those were the

  two like I I did know the names for

  those two styles but I used to be

  violently devoutly in favor of what did

  you say BSD where all of the openings in

  Iran might be almond it's the one where

  the the opening curly is underneath the

  eye and if right right right that's

  that's the way I used to be just and I

  was passionately about Italy almost as

  bad as I am about people who say jiff

  like I passionately believed that that

  you have to put it under eye and those

  monsters that sage if that also put the

  the opening brace at the end of the line

  or just without help and overtime

  similar story I think because I started

  writing a fair bit of JavaScript I ended

  up kind of switching to the other style

  where you have you know if something

  opened open brace new line like it's an

  important part in every programmer who

  doesn't work for themselves in a single

  person shop and they're in their careers

  is becoming not just multi-language

  fluent but becoming able to and you've

  rework on open source projects your

  forces this to becoming able to write

  code and the style demanded by the thing

  that you're doing whether it's a job or

  an open source project or whatever you

  can't I mean you can be Precious about

  it and have a preferred thing but you

  have to be able to get the job done in

  whatever language are formatting that is

  dictated by the mob you just have to

  it's just practically and

  you know in the end like I was also

  pretty strongly about opening curly

  under the little eye and I still think

  it's the style that makes more sense but

  you know you get over it a few years of

  using kar and you're like okay like it's


  and it's actually difficult if you get

  into a groove to switch back and forth

  like if the mode switch between them you

  just your fingers will you'll find them

  doing the things they do and you have to

  switch back but like that's life that's

  programming for you I'm actually the

  reason why I use knr style is that I

  used to use the brace hump of the eye

  but like in college and like as I was

  teaching myself how to program and going

  through college like I used that style

  and then my first job you strictly KN

  our style and they just like broke me of

  that habit and then that became my style

  anyway well we can all agree tabs versus

  spaces it doesn't really matter but the

  right answer spaces unless you use two

  spaces in which case you're an animal I

  think I could probably get behind that

  Spencer Holbrook writes in what low

  level part of Apple stack would you like

  to see replaced next hfs+ day a PFS

  Objective C to Swift OpenGL to metal etc

  I think I'm most anxious and most

  interested in HFS+ to a PFS and I can't

  think of another example if top my head

  I'm sure John you'll probably have one

  but none of these are really rev my

  engine that much sorry John markula

  asking you what you want to see replace

  next they listed a bunch of ones they're

  already doing I'm so following all of

  that oh yeah wish list I don't even know

  I'd have to think about that I'm not

  sure to be honest I'll pass on this one

  Marco what do you think

  yeah I'm sure John's gonna have the best

  answers here but thank you for going to

  me first I don't have to follow him my

  boring answers are basically I have to

  it's like if the if the API framework or

  if the UI framework is is the correct

  level for this question I would love to

  see what surpasses app kit on the Mac if

  ever oh that's a good one actually

  that's very good that's not low level so

  if you go a little bit lower level what

  I would also like to see is another

  thing on the Mac actually I would like

  to see Mac sandbox and completely

  rethought and matured and a rethinking

  of the Mac security model with

  so like basically bringing a more I Oh s

  so like basically bringing a more I Oh s

  like sandboxing environment to the Mac

  so it's so to do things like you could

  you could knowingly safely install an

  application and then delete that

  application and know that everything

  that goes with it gets deleted no they

  could only write to and read from

  certain directories that are easy to

  manage and and isolated from other

  things and can't like every app that you

  install as you the user account can't

  read your entire user directory and they

  started down this path with sandboxing

  whenever that was like eight years ago

  and they they did like the most bare

  bones basic version and then just

  stopped and they'd never matured it and

  as I read and because of the version

  they did and and the the various

  shortcomings had had it basically made

  it so that most apps could not be

  reasonably sandbox if they did anything

  cool at all and I bet there's oh I bet

  there's a better balance to be struck

  now in the modern day with what we know

  with where the software you know world

  is where the economics and where the

  ecosystem has gone since then I would

  love to see a more modern more secure

  version of sandboxing on the Mac that

  brings it closer to iOS in those

  security and and user assuredness ways

  but that still has the power of Mac

  software available in various you know

  new clever ways I know that's a very

  hard thing to solve but there's also you

  know a I think we need to solve it and

  be I think there's massive gains to be

  had there when it is solved all right

  John those probably there's a bunch of

  stuff all the way down to the kernel

  itself that I give this to you but the

  reason I put this in because I don't

  have any really good answers for little

  stuff that I'm dying for except for one

  and it's actually mentioned in here they

  said you know HFS tape EFS Objective C a

  swift OpenGL the metal the OpenGL the

  metal one is the one I actually have

  objections to I don't like I understand

  metal and it's good thing to have and an

  Apple is heavily behind it but I think

  Apple should still have a world class

  open Jam fomentation I know that's a

  tough sell bits like what do we even

  need that for we're all in on metal

  battle is the future blah blah blah like

  I don't that thing you can get rid of

  metal but I OpenGL or Vulcan or whatever

  is still a thing and it is still worth


  not just maintaining but like you know

  advance it like either don't have it at

  all it's kind of like flash like look if

  you think it's viable to have a web

  browser that flash don't support it at

  all don't don't just say our flash

  emulation is slow and so people won't

  use it and they'll migrate age just

  don't support it at all either don't

  support at all and if you think you

  can't you know oh we can't drop opengl

  we have to have it our whole West runs

  well then make a good version of it like

  I was this came up recently in the

  article I think KC red was he retweeted

  it but I read earlier about the dolphin

  GameCube emulator and all interesting

  technical problems KC you can have a

  show out there put that one link in the

  show notes

  lots of good articles on that and it

  goes through some fun technical details

  and then towards the bottom of this

  really nice article it says it here's a

  section for Mac users none of this is

  relevant to you because your OpenGL

  stack is a piece of crap and none of the

  features that we even talked about even

  exists in your open in GL position let

  alone exists in our performance so screw

  you guys and it's like look Apple it's

  embarrassing I wish I want them you know

  and what did we lose by that we don't

  get to have a cool GameCube Emily ome

  later unless we boot into Windows or

  Linux for crying a Linux so I hope a

  pole gets their act together with OpenGL

  you don't support it at all and then

  figure out what you have to do to make

  your computer still viable or actually

  support it and be awesome that was not

  what I expected but I was pretty good

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  investing made better Jacy Calhoun

  writes how about an update on how the

  overcast advertising is working out so

  John no I'm just kidding

  I mean this short answer is it's great I

  mean there's there's not a whole lot to

  say on it this is so they're talking

  about like how I switched a few months

  ago to selling my own direct ads and now

  they're entirely for podcast that first

  it was like for podcasts and or websites

  the podcasts have been buying them so

  much that I actually recently stopped

  selling them for anything that's not a

  podcast that the capability is still

  there if I choose to use it later but I

  don't think I will need to for a while I

  worked out some various like pricing and

  inventory level tweaks over the last few

  months just working out like how should

  these things be priced how many should I

  have any category what should the

  categories even be but I think it's

  pretty stable now it's and and it's it's

  making good money it's making something

  like ten times what I was making from

  Google ad whatever their AdMob that's

  what it does the other the mobile app

  thing so it's going great and I as long

  as this continues to sell at all

  reasonably I don't see myself changing

  the model any time soon from your

  analytics or whatever you've got running

  against these ads does it seem like

  they're working like obviously they're

  working in the sense that your ki you

  keep selling them but are they working

  in the sense that it seems like they're

  pushing subscriptions to to shows and

  all that yeah I mean I have that info

  and I share that like the advertisers

  when you buy an ad they see in their

  little control panel on the website how

  many impressions how many tabs and how

  many subscriptions it has gotten they

  don't see anything else but they see

  those three numbers and that's

  honestly I haven't collect anything else

  that's all I collect so and and that

  plays into how I price them like I try

  to keep the cost per new subscriber

  within a certain range the the challenge

  in pricing these ads is not trying to

  people to buy them it's it's trying to

  avoid the temptation to raise prices

  like crazy because they're selling out

  frequently and I it's hard for me to

  know like what should any listener be

  worth like what range should I keep this

  price in the way I've been pricing it

  I've been keeping it between one and two

  dollars for most categories but certain

  categories like like I recently

  separated out business podcast into

  their own category because like it you

  know I ran the numbers like what is it

  what is a listener to or sorry what's a

  listener to a tipi worth and if you've

  run the numbers over the course of you

  know certain time spans or like a year

  or two its ends up being like you know

  five bucks something like that right and

  so I thought if I keep the prices

  between one and two dollars that that

  keeps it you know pretty good pretty

  compelling for most people but certain

  categories like like business business

  podcasts are huge first of all like

  that's huge market for like business you

  know tips and tricks and writing books

  and everything and many of them monetize

  not just by ads but by selling you books

  e-books conferences seminars you know

  stuff like that so they might have a

  very different valuation of what a new

  subscriber is worth to them and so and

  and this is true of many many of the

  different different you know categories

  of podcasts and and some of them the

  people don't care what Ana listeners

  worth them they just want dates and

  listeners and they have a new show maybe

  and they want to know when I get it

  basically going from zero and so they

  use the ads for that if you look at it

  purely as like how should I price these

  in in terms of like pure demand they

  keep selling out so I should price them

  way higher but if I price them higher

  we're gonna start getting into numbers

  that that if you think about the numbers

  if you run the numbers of like what is a

  listener worth it starts not to make

  sense for a lot of people so I don't

  want to breach that level so basically

  the answer is I think I even could make

  more money from it if I tried to but I

  would be afraid if I did that that I

  would that I would have would have like

  a brief period of making more money

  followed by a crash

  as a lot of advertisers started seeing

  you know this actually isn't worth what

  I'm paying for these users and starts

  bailing out so I want to keep it

  reasonable so that I have the most

  advertisers as possible but you know

  besides that that minor concern which i

  think is largely alleviated now by just

  time and stability it's going great

  it really is going great and it's one of

  the only advertising things I've ever


  where basically all the parties win you

  know because I'm not showing you ads for

  Viagra of mattresses like I'm showing

  you ads for podcasts in categories that

  you subscribe to while you're using a

  podcast app in a way that respects your

  privacy that isn't a huge burden that

  doesn't get in your way that like it's a

  great setup and you know it this

  obviously is not a method that every app

  can do so it's not like I'm not saying

  like every app should monetize the way

  I've monetized because well you simply

  can't it doesn't apply but for what I am


  it's working great and I have I have

  more advertisers who want to buy ads

  than I have inventory to sell them and

  that's wonderful that's really awesome

  John any additional thoughts on that


  all right Edgar Perez writes in and this

  is the first one that I noticed in this

  context but I've seen this come up a lot

  particularly after our one Pastore

  discussion and he writes to say I agree

  the $3 a month for an app service is

  reasonable but what if all the apps I

  use monthly want $3 a month can't let

  apps kill the Mac I understand what

  people are driving out and again Edgar

  isn't the first person to say this you

  know if every app I use is a

  subscription Apple suddenly I won't be

  able to afford anything anymore and I

  get that but I I think in my eyes if

  everything I used became a subscription

  I would either change my usage or I

  would pay for it all and I don't it

  since we're now deep into the second

  episode I don't remember if it was this

  episode of last week we talked about ad

  blockers I think it was last week which

  was really two hours ago I had talked

  about ad blockers and how you know Marco

  you were saying well if the Nant blocker

  shows up then I'll just leave and I just

  won't read that content it was this one


  no wasn't this one okay thanks

  I'm getting tired it's nearly midnight

  but anyway so point being you know I

  think it's a similar thing so like for

  me and this is just for Casey it may not

  be for others but for me I absolutely

  will pay for one password and I will

  absolutely pay for day one but maybe

  your you know the the listener here

  maybe your a day one user but you don't

  love it you just kind of like it and

  maybe it's not worth paying for in a

  regular basis so you just stop using day

  one and use Apple notes or something

  like that that's okay that's an option

  like that will work in life will go on

  but I don't know that's just the way I

  look at it John what do you think if you

  had remembered back to actual last week

  I address this on the 1password episode

  I said look not every I did it from the

  perspective of an app developer not

  every app can sustain subscription

  pricing your app has to be valuable

  enough to enough people to sustain

  subscription price and so I don't think

  there's any fear that every single app

  is going to be you know three dollars a

  month because there are app categories

  entire categories let alone individual

  apps that can't sustain it but they

  don't deliver that much value to people

  so you have to you have to know your

  application and your marker to say is

  any are enough people willing to

  subscribe to this people probably aren't

  gonna pay three dollars a month for a

  far nap all right even if you have new

  parts released every month like they're

  they're a whole you know you have to

  turn you'd have to turn into like a free

  for free-to-play you know casino

  gambling exploit human nature type

  service to get that and then it's a

  different kind of app entirely right so

  I this is a fear that I don't think is a

  real thing if you're a customer this

  will take care of itself don't like get

  the price don't buy it

  right and from a developer's perspective

  if you don't want to be on the losing

  end of that problem taking care of

  itself you should know you know if if we

  can't develop this without subscription

  pricing make sure that it is valuable

  enough to enough people to justify

  subscription pricing game one password

  certainly is because a lot of people

  find it a very valuable thing and they

  want it to work on an ongoing basis and

  they understand the ongoing maintenance

  costs and they're willing to pay for it

  but you're far adapt might not be so I

  would say don't worry about this too

  much and if you don't want to pay for a

  subscription don't pay for it I mean

  every time so

  pricing comes up people bring up this

  issue of what's gonna happen when

  everything subscription and everyone

  gets tired of it and stops paying for it

  you know it's not something like that


  the idea of subscription fatigue and you

  know we've been able to charge

  subscription prices now for a little

  while and there's that's just not

  happening like I have not seen any sign

  that that's happening I think this is

  one of those things that the market just

  sorts out itself you know like John said

  like most apps aren't willing to or

  sorry most customers aren't willing to

  pay for most of their apps but there are

  they wouldn't be buying a $36 a year

  upgrade either instead of paying $3 a

  month like the fact is most apps have a

  lot of competition and aren't that

  necessary for most people so they're

  gonna have a hard time matter how they

  charge but the apps that are that are

  really valuable to people that are

  difficult for people to go without or

  they're required for them to do their

  work or whatever else or that appeal to

  markets that don't care about spending 3

  dollars a month they can do this just

  fine I don't think the whole like

  slippery slope argument is like once

  what's all the apps go this way no one's

  gonna want to pay any more I just don't

  think it's happening like I think we

  wouldn't we would have seen that by now

  we would have seen that at least

  starting and it's just not most apps are

  not even trying to charge subscription

  rates and the ones that are mostly do

  okay I agree

  dude done writes in is it technically

  possible for Apple to make second gen

  airpot noise-canceling or

  noise-isolating I really really want

  that I don't see why not I think the

  problem with that is it's even more

  processing to be done thus even more

  battery usage but I mean at this point I

  don't know that it would be a tremendous

  difference and certainly noise-isolating

  I mean they could change the look of

  what of these things and change where

  they sit within your ear but I don't see

  any reason why I wouldn't work Marco I

  mean you basically got I mean the noise

  cancellation requires a microphone on

  the outside and then DSP on the inside

  to basically emit sound waves on the

  inside but in you know mixed into your


  that will cancel out by phase of the

  wave that will cancel out the waves of

  the ones coming in from the outside

  world so there's nothing stopping them

  from doing that as far as I know in the

  harbor they have now or you know in that

  style of hardware they have now rather

  but that wouldn't be very useful without

  better isolation and isolation is right

  now where they really fall down you know

  and that doesn't require any circuitry

  that requires physical barriers

  basically of you know literally just

  isolating you from the world around you

  and to do that you know right now they

  are ear buds and bloody ear buds are our

  little drivers that sit kind of kind of

  inside your ears but there are more like

  resting in a little Kirby spot in your

  ear they're not really blocking your ear

  canal at all there are other types like

  canal phones that or you know in-ear

  monitors they're all they're also called

  that actually block your whole ear canal

  with some kind of like big like rubber

  cone thing or something like that and

  they they physically block the sound

  from getting into your ears larger over

  ear headphones have a similar effect but

  with they just they they cup over your

  ears as if you're putting your hands

  over your ears and block the sound it

  that way either way you're physically

  blocking the sound from getting there

  for the ear pot or started for the air

  pods or your pods to do that they would

  have to have a totally different shape

  that would actually like block your ear

  canal and be more like canal phones or

  they would have to have some kind of

  like you know coating or cover you could

  put on them some kind of accessory that

  you can put on them to do that although

  I think they would ideally they would be

  designed for this from the start

  so that there's no there's nothing

  stopping Apple from releasing air pod

  canal phones but it's it's a different

  style of product it has it's a whole

  different shape it's a whole different

  set of constraints and design goals

  you'd have to have for it I don't expect

  they would do that probably at all but

  if they do it would probably be a

  separate product it probably would not

  just be like air pods - now they block

  your whole ear canal it would probably

  be like here's the new you know air

  canals or you know whatever it they

  would have a better name than that but

  it would probably be a separate product

  because that's a very separate physical

  design of the

  products let's just work on Apple being

  able to ship air pods in a reasonable

  time worried about adding features thick

  burn yeah and I also would not spend too

  much time waiting around for the air pod

  two's yeah air pods - whatever they like

  I don't think Apple was updating the air

  pods anytime soon probably right about

  that Alex s glum SAS writes in to say if

  you could make a single change to Swift

  what would it be I will say that even

  though it's probably not the biggest

  thing in the world what I really love to

  see is reflection and I've talked about

  this from time to time reflection or

  introspection means at runtime you can

  look at an object in code and say you

  know what are the properties it has one

  of the methods it has and and and

  typically along with that you'll see

  annotations which are attributes in

  c-sharp world which means you can kind

  of decorate your code with metadata

  which is also super useful I could go on

  and on and on about this but it's not

  terribly interesting so I'll just say

  reflection with a bonus choice of

  stealing Marcos thought earlier of a

  better concurrency model so since I've

  stolen your obvious answer Marco what

  would you say have two versions oh I

  don't really have a good answer this

  question because I don't know enough

  about Swift because of the

  aforementioned factors I don't use it

  really enough so I really am not

  qualified to say John so if a single

  change if concurrency counts as a single

  chain so just solve concurrency the

  solution of your choosing either a good

  imitation of async/await there's

  something entirely different or whatever

  that would be my single thing but it's

  kind of vague if I have to be narrow I

  would say I would say regular expression

  literals but you know no way both of

  those things are coming by the way it's

  a question of when Brian Middleton asks

  what arcade games are each of you

  nostalgic for from your childhood is

  there one game you would like to own I

  will start as usual I we actually have a

  pinball machine in the house my dad many

  years ago had a had gone through a phase

  of restore or maybe not restoring but

  repairing old pinball machines and so he

  had like

  six of them at one point but unloaded

  all but two of them one of which went to

  me and one of what she still has so I

  obviously have nostalgia for all those

  but in terms of like traditional arcade


  NBA Jam cruisin USA and Street Fighter 2

  I didn't play any of them that much but

  I enjoyed deeply all three of those both

  in in arcade form and in occasionally in

  console form so I would say those three


  honestly I hardly went to arcades in my

  childhood we didn't really live that

  close to them and we didn't have a lot

  of money and so I idea of just going

  there and like blowing like tens of

  dollars maybe like that would be that

  would not really happen in my family but

  wait what I did play a little bit of

  arcade game since I was like a teenager

  here and there the one I most liked was

  Daytona USA this was during the you know

  the mid 90s or so so like the Sega

  Saturn was coming out and so they they

  had like a few cool games like Virtua

  Fighter and everything that were coming

  out with you know alongside of it and

  Daytona USA was my favorite one it was a

  racing game and it was just you know

  basic kind of like NASCAR style I think

  I don't know I don't know whatever style

  uses what appear to be stock cars on a

  round track but that a lot of turns and

  it was a lot of fun but it was $1.00 per

  play in most arcades so I hardly ever

  played it with the exception of there

  was like I was in some kind of youth

  group and there was one time that they

  had a lock-in at a Magic Mountain arcade

  where we just got everything set to free

  play might have to play them all night

  so I play a lot of it Daytona USA for

  one night and that was awesome but other

  than this is kind of a set so we're like

  oh man I hardly ever played Archy really

  John I played a lot of arcade games I

  was thought that a very nice nostalgic

  for it's hard to pick one that I would

  want to own though because in general

  arcade games back then and I'm assuming

  still today we're made to take your

  money and so I remember

  getting lots of you know tokens or

  quarters and feeding them into these

  machines and I think if I owned any of

  them they they would become shallow very

  fast especially the games I'm nostalgic

  about unless you do something like

  centipede or like pac-man or you try to

  make it like the perfect game or

  whatever but uh in a couple of summer

  camps I went through the head arcade

  games they were either set to free or

  were only 25 cents when instead of 50 or

  whatever and that I played a lot and so

  there are some games I got really good

  at like one of them that was Tiger heli

  which is not top-down vertically

  scrolling shooter thing or 1942

  similar type of game both of those very

  camp I got really good at those games

  like that was where you put in one

  quarter and I'd play for a really really

  really long time you know and but even

  then you feel like oh well now I've seen

  the whole game like this is all there is

  to this game and so I really wouldn't

  want to own it so I don't think I would

  want to own any machines but most of

  subject for the Star Wars sit-down game

  afterburner we're just as impressive

  when it first came out especially with

  the one that you move around inside the

  thing was one of the first 50:57 games I

  can remember the classics centipede

  Galaga I liked time pilot is that we

  were one called section Z sidearm this

  was a totally weird one that I still

  think was awesome I have all these em

  name now though so I don't need to own

  any of the machines nice nuclear Eclipse

  asks this is John Reese when will you

  record neutral season 2 my official

  answer is we've been recording it for

  the last like three years and after

  shows of this show my unofficial answer

  is not soon enough John let's go to you


  well you answered it there's not an

  intro season two you listen to it this

  is it yep

  done and done Krusty the Klown writes do

  you think an iOS laptop would be a

  viable product ie an iBook I was hoping

  Apple would announced at WWDC but it

  didn't happen isn't that kind of what an

  iPad pro is like I understand well I

  presume that Roger Escobar's person who

  wrote in is is asking you know something

  that has the physical like connected

  keyboard and screen

  that you can never you know separate the

  two I I feel like an iPad pro is so

  close to there that it's oh it's I don't

  see really is it not okay okay well

  that's the thing I've never owned an

  iPad pro so so learn me to show me why

  I'm wrong yeah so I I have I've now had

  the 9.7 pro and 10.5 and I keep I keep

  it always in the keyboard cover almost

  always on the Apple keyboard cover and

  and there are other keyboard covers that

  kind of make it a little bit more laptop

  like but it they're mostly not that

  great for the way some people use it and

  I'm one of these people I would use that

  I would buy that product because I oh I

  always want the keyboard the keyboard is

  what made iPad usable for me as simple

  as that like I do occasionally like go

  on the couch and fold the keyboard back

  behind it and try to use it without it

  and I hate it I always end up like

  folding it back out and like trying to

  use on my lap which is awful cuz it's

  all floppy and Bailey back weighted

  everything so I would say this is not a

  huge market probably but if they did it

  I would I would certainly buy it that

  way because iOS for me you know part of

  the part of the reason why it feels so

  hobbled to me so often is the lack of a

  keyboard when I'm on my phone or when I

  want on iPad without that so like that

  that's why formulate the keyboard really

  has made a huge difference for me in

  making iOS on the iPad and making the

  making the iPad worth having and worth

  keeping out in my kitchen all the time

  so a clamshell version of that would be

  welcome but I honestly I would be very

  surprised if they did it John this is

  where there would be a viable product

  and I think it totally would like as iOS

  expands its functionality to solve some

  of the same problems that are currently

  only or best solved by a Mac today and

  inevitably has to come into that area

  because it's proved it's a proven form

  factor people like that form factors

  just a question of oh can you combine

  that form factor with a bunch of other

  things software and battery life and

  costs and other trade-offs to make a

  compelling product yes you totally can

  yeah I think you could do with iOS today

  but certainly as iOS continues get more


  it would be a viable product whether how

  soon Apple will do it I don't know

  chance rubbage writes and asked more and

  more podcasts are going behind paywalls

  is it a good idea for Apple to enable a

  tip jar or in-app purchase for podcasts

  I don't see how that could really work

  out especially since it would presumably

  be locked to the Apple podcast app and

  even if you could just magically snap

  your fingers and make that work across

  any podcast app anywhere I don't know I

  think it would help the smaller podcast

  but for something like us I don't know

  that it would me and not to say we're

  like sorry that implies that we're like

  a 99 you know percent invisible we're

  not that anything either but like a

  mid-level if you if we can generously

  call ourselves that like a mid-level

  show like this one I don't know that it

  would make a big difference let's go to

  Jon first Apple implementing it is the

  problem here because having a way for

  people to do a tip jar and app purchases

  for podcasts that would be a good thing

  because the ability to do more business

  models more easily lets different shows

  find different ways to fund themselves

  depends on the show and the audience and

  so forth but having it be Apple thing is

  bad because the you know one of the

  great benefits of podcasts is they're

  not owned and controlled by a single

  corporation to the degree that a lot of

  other things are and so I wouldn't want

  Apple to do this because if they're

  wildly successful it's a problem and if

  they're not successful then what would

  that was the even the point you don't

  allow more business models so I would

  love for there to be standards that you

  know the clients would work with across

  multiple platforms just like RSS is a

  standard the clients work with across

  multiple platforms to distribute

  podcasts if there was a similar standard

  a similar open cross-platform standard

  for enabling different kind of business

  models that would be great but guess

  who's motivated to make such a thing not

  Apple and not a lot of other companies

  too so Marco I would say also like the

  this question starts with the statement

  more and more podcasts are going behind

  paywalls this sounds like a big trend

  but I don't think it is much of one

  really I think the only podcasts that

  have actually succeeded in going behind

  paywalls for the most part are the ones

  that monetize their back catalogue

  that are they're fairly timeless and

  that you can either use their own it

  possibly paid app or pay for some

  membership to download like archive to

  older episodes but then the current ones

  are still free that's a way more common

  thing and even that doesn't work for

  every show like that only works for

  shows that are timeless doesn't wouldn't

  work for a show like ours where we talk

  mostly about news you know so it's like

  that whole but like I don't think a lot

  of podcasts overall are going behind

  paywalls and in the traditional sense of

  like you can't listen to this unless you

  pay us the fact is that's really hard

  it's really hard to grow an audience if

  you're behind a paywall

  as I mean you look look around the whole

  rest of the web lots of news sites and

  everything I have tried paywalls very

  few have succeeded because of this

  problem and the ones that have have

  these kind of porous pay walls where you

  can get a bunch for free upfront and

  then you may manage to pay us or clear

  your cookies or you couldn't you have to

  pay us to read all of our articles

  unless you come from Google or Twitter

  like there's like there's all sorts of

  like these holes because pay walls are

  really hard to make work podcasts have

  have survived and thrived and grown all

  this time driven almost entirely by

  advertising the exact same way most

  websites have always funded themselves

  for all the same reasons that it's

  really again it's hard to grow an

  audience if you're making people pay on

  the way in and it's generally easier to

  sell ads than to do that and advertisers

  will typically pay more than your

  audience will so I don't really think

  this is a big problem either a trend

  that is happening or something that

  really needs to be explored that much so

  that being said if Apple were to enable

  tip jars or in-app purchases for

  podcasts I honestly I have thought about

  doing this in over cast before I've

  talked to podcasters about it the

  overall conclusion I have reached is

  that that would be a very messy business

  to be in and that for the most part

  podcasters now because there isn't a big

  centralised system run by Apple anywhere

  else podcasters now have found ways to

  monetize their podcasts

  their own ways they own ways that they

  control people have patreon so people

  have memberships and people just do ads

  like we do some people do some

  combination thereof but the point is

  that no one's involved there is no

  middleman there is no like you know

  Apple skimming 30% off the top and

  making everything go through them and

  disallowing everything else like the way

  there was an app's

  you know there is no middleman and like

  when I talk to podcasters when I was

  thinking about doing something like this

  in overcast the universal response was

  we don't want anyone else handling our

  money for us we don't want anyone else

  getting between our audience in us me or

  Apple or anybody else like no one wanted

  that and and I would see like you know

  what if I started collecting money and I

  just distribute it to you like you know

  readability style like would you go for

  that and the universal response was kind

  of like yeah I guess I would take the

  money but I wouldn't promote it because

  I would want if I'm gonna promote

  something I want to promote my own

  membership thing on my own site or my

  own patreon whatever else like everybody

  wanted to do their own thing with their

  own money and they don't want middle

  people to come in and collect money on

  their behalf like that you're not doing

  them a favor of doing that so ultimately

  I I see why this question is asked and

  it's going to keep being asked like

  every six months for if for the next ten

  years as everyone thinks about these

  things the podcast but I just don't

  think this is really a big problem and I

  don't think anybody wants a huge

  middleman to come in and and get in the

  way of between them and their customers

  I'm things like patreon or a middleman

  as well but they're they're divorced

  from podcasting there's nothing about

  patreon that has podcast specific so

  it's just a question of like how do you

  find a way to fund the thing that you're

  doing and you have all these tool I mean

  stripe is a you know middleman they're

  like if they taking your percentage of

  your transactions they're any good like

  there's always going to be people taking

  a percentage of transactions but in the

  world of podcasting it's nice to not

  have or you have to do it this way

  because this is how podcasts are sold

  you want to use stripe you want to use

  patreon you want to Kickstarter you want

  to solicit donations on your web page

  and use any one of those services none

  of those are tied to podcasting and are

  interesting to the podcast ecosystem or

  you know force you to do something

  unlike for example the App Store where


  fully controls how you can pay for your

  how you can collect money for your

  applications yeah Chris Adamson writes

  what streaming services other than

  Netflix do you guys use does siracusa

  have a country roll subscription so

  actually let's start with John and then

  we'll end with me I saw this question I

  was trying to think of I mean I do I

  subscribe to Hulu I subscribed Amazon

  Prime I do not have a crunchyroll

  subscription but I have had one in the

  past maybe there's other ones I honestly

  I thought about the other day I should

  catalog all the things have subscribed

  to so I am aware rado crown the line

  he'll steal style of not having too many

  subscriptions but they've been creeping

  in like I mean for things like Hulu is

  like oh I want to see The Handmaid's

  Tale so I'll describe to Hulu but now I

  just have a whose description forever

  because I find other shows that I want

  to watch I already watched a good place

  on there because other things I'm gonna

  watch on Hulu right this can't continue

  indefinitely because I will be end up

  you know I gotta add up all those 5 10

  whatever dollars a month and see what

  their I was HBO well no but that's part

  of my cable I don't know they've too

  many I guess is my answer

  fair enough Marco for us it's just it's

  Netflix and HBO go or now whichever one

  is those two that's it yeah for us it's

  Netflix and we are Amazon Prime members

  by virtue or Prime video members by

  virtue of Amazon Prime

  oh yeah us to never use it yeah and

  that's the thing like outside of the

  Grand Tour we never use it and I

  probably would have subscribed to prime

  video specifically for the Grand Tour

  and then regretted it because the Grand

  Tour was terrible uh let's see

  exalt rights in do I have a real name

  here sorry little fancy spreadsheet

  doesn't catch real names as elf ridin

  rights in I'm standing in the computer

  store in my local mall before Christmas

  1986 John sell me on a Mac Plus over the

  Apple 2 GS oh the pixels are the size of

  boulders on the Apple 2 GS the the

  number of amazing games that are you'll

  have to play on the Mac Plus will

  impress any Apple to do yes yes I know

  the 2 GS is color but a the Mac is the

  future and B the pixels are tiny

  and see the Mac has an incredible amount

  of charm like its there's no contest if

  you have the money as I say if you have

  the means I highly recommend one do not

  do the amplitude yes it is a dead end

  that was Ferris Bueller by the way all

  right uh Melvin gun latch writes in how

  did you initially meet and what got you

  started making podcast together bits and

  pieces of the story I've been told many

  many many times in the past so I'll try

  to give the chief summarizer in chief

  version mark when I met when we were

  little kids

  your parents or grandparents it isn't

  entirely important had a house that was

  on a small lake in upstate New York my

  grandparents had a had a different house

  on the same small lake in upstate New

  York and we would hang out over the

  summers because basically we're the only

  kids that were there and we kind of fell

  out of touch not an angry way just in a

  you know we were kids and we grew up

  kind of way and I think one of us would

  email the other from time to time over

  the years and then shortly after I think

  was after we both got married so not too

  terribly long after college one of us

  reached out to the other if I recall

  correctly each of us blames the other

  for doing this and in both the good way

  and in the haha way but anyway somehow

  or another we fell back in touch and and

  we just kind of rekindled our friendship

  from forever ago so of the people that I

  still talk to Marco and are now mutual

  friend Brad Lawton back who works for

  light there they are my two oldest

  friends that I've known for about the

  same amount of time and it's been

  something like 20 years now so fast

  forward to WDC 2011 2012 I forget which

  one it was I want to say was 2011 Marco

  and I are in line for the keynote and I

  forget if John siracusa walked up to us

  or Marco found John but one way or

  another John found us and we found John

  and we hung out for the rest of the day

  and then John and I kind of became

  friendly after that and around the time

  that build and analyze ended in late

  2012 I guess it was I had started

  needling Marco about hey we should do a

  car show we should do a car show even if

  nobody listens to it'll still be fun we

  should do a car show spoiler alert

  nobody listened to it but anyway Marco

  had the presence of mind to

  say you know hypercritical just ended I

  wonder if John would do it too cuz he

  likes cars and so that's how neutral got

  started and then we would we would as

  three nerds are off to do we would start

  talking about nerdy stuff after the fact

  and Marco's similar story had the

  presence of mind to put that on

  Soundcloud which by the time you listen

  to this may not even exist anymore he

  put those episodes on SoundCloud and we

  realized well people actually like when

  we talk about things we sort of know

  about and people are not that interested

  in us pontificating about cars of which

  we know nothing about so maybe we should

  stop with the car thing and start with

  the tech thing and that's kind of the

  super abridged version of how this all

  came to be and so ATP really became a

  thing I think in March of 2013 and here

  we are in the middle of 2017 it's it's

  still a thing so let's start with Marco

  any other thoughts to add and then John

  after him only that this is now one of

  the longest jobs I've ever held

  instapaper was longer club you I was

  taking simple water oh my god well done

  it was about five years so this we're in

  the were near for now for this does that

  mean does that mean the clock is ticking

  worried no I once I once this becomes

  longest job I've ever held which I'm

  pretty sure will happen then I will

  celebrate then there enough John any

  other thoughts I continue to protest the

  characterization of not knowing anything

  about cars speak for yourselves I know a

  lot about cars

  I can't really argue with that alright

  let's see what else is good and do you

  tape your webcams gentlemen John do you

  put tape over your webcam nope nope same

  here Marco are you still and this is a

  question from mark so mark - mark oh are

  you still happy choosing go for the

  overcast back end yeah not really

  but so first of all only a very small

  part of the overcast back end is in go

  most of it is still PHP there's simply a

  separate go process for the feed

  crawlers and they'll even it doesn't

  even do the whole process it just pulls

  a whole bunch of feeds and fetches their

  contents for chain

  Changez if they don't report based for

  him with cash headers and then if he

  exchanged feed it then stuffs the

  contents of that feed into a into a

  queue which is processed by PHP

  consumers and the whole web app is all

  PHP so I would I would not even say I

  have a go back end I have one go

  component in the backend and go is go is

  an interesting language I'm sure a lot

  of people like it a lot I I like it a

  lot for certain things but it's very

  cumbersome to do complex things so like

  it's really great for what I'm using it

  now for which is like something that is

  a fairly simple task but you need to be

  really fast you need to have a certain

  concurrency story there but like I would

  not want to write it now that I've

  gotten to the language a bit enough to

  do this I would definitely not want to

  write a whole web app of complexity you

  can go just because simple things are

  cumbersome to do alright we only have

  time for a few more because I'm about to

  die and so let's choose a few uh oh god

  I'm so sorry I don't know how to

  pronounce this but Jo Shin Marshall I'm

  so so sorry how did you how did this

  year's ATP t-shirt campaign work out for

  you I'm happy to share my not so good

  experience this is another example of

  doing something nicely that could have

  taken a terrible turn so the the shirts

  are tough thing right because right now

  we kind of have two choices we can use a

  company that has a printing press if you

  will in Europe but doesn't seem to do

  the best with fulfillment and often

  times has problems or we can use a

  company that is only based out of the US

  which kind of screws the Europeans but

  is way more reliable and we've fluttered

  back and forth between these two options

  I will only speak for myself and say I

  will probably petition for the US only

  company next year and understand

  completely if like a $90 t-shirt it's

  just too darn much money to ask for from

  the Europeans because in some cases like

  with import tax and v80 or whatever that


  called it got to be unbelievably

  expensive and in and I am deeply sorry

  for that I really truly am but but I'd

  rather have everyone have a good

  experience and just decide whether or

  not it's worth the money to them then

  having a really crummy experience so

  this is your warning Europeans right now

  that whenever we do t-shirts next it's

  probably gonna be expensive and I am

  sorry John any other thoughts I don't

  think it was that bad this year like we

  sold a lot of shirts and there's some

  percentage where there's gonna be

  problems I'm more happy having more the

  larger number of people who are happy

  with the shirts that they got across the

  whole world

  even if it also means a proportionately

  larger number of people who are unhappy

  because I'm presuming the only happy

  people can get Raley's get their money

  back but it is a trade off and we've

  tried it both ways and people

  complaining either way and who knows

  what we'll do the problem is the problem

  is that this is not what you know this

  is not our core competency we are not a

  t-shirt generating enterprise we are

  podcast generating enterprise that once

  a year does this silly thing with

  t-shirts so the right way to do this

  it's like oh you got to do it all

  in-house but we're not a corporation

  here we're just three people so every

  year these three people try to figure

  out how to do t-shirts in a way that

  makes sense for everybody involved and

  we have varying degrees of success and

  guess what we're gonna try again

  Marco any other thoughts only I'm with

  you Casey and and I would go a little

  further to say so so basically you know

  I'll name names here

  cotton bureau makes does great work they

  they have their Austin quality they have

  awesome people who are there who help

  with the designs are often do the

  designs they designed are our ATP

  rainbow and logo kind of thing like they

  design that themselves without even us

  telling them like they there they are

  they are great they do great work but

  yeah they're international shipping is

  really expensive because they print here

  in the US and and so teespring

  which is what we use this year and a

  couple years ago also teespring has

  printers in multiple locations around

  the world we've had lots of problems

  though with teespring

  so it is cheaper and we actually make

  more money from the teespring shirts you

  I think but I would go as far as to say

  right now on the record I don't think I

  ever want to use teespring again after

  this year because in the past the

  quality issue was a single large mistake

  it was like when we had that but that

  wrong font on the source code on the

  back of the shirt like that was a single

  large mistake that we worked with them

  they corrected it they sent everybody

  new shirts it was one mistake one big

  mistake that was fixable

  this year the problem I don't know what

  has changed at each me I know there was

  an article about they were having you

  know layoffs or something so I don't

  know what's going on over there I don't

  pay attention but this year it was like

  a large number of different diffuse

  small problems like even like the shirts

  I ordered I have bad printing on like

  two of the four shirts that I ordered

  there were things like missing colors

  things like misalignment where like the

  logo was slightly slanted instead of

  being aligned properly like stuff like

  that just a lot of like small diffuse

  issues with teespring this year that it

  seems like maybe they have more printers

  I don't know what the deal is but it was

  the kind of problem that you can't

  really just go to them and have them fix

  you can't go to them and say hey like a

  third of these shirts from random color

  combinations and places are weird in

  different ways and they're all

  inconsistent like they're not gonna be

  able to fix that so I would rather you

  know going back to a key said I would

  rather have a have something that I at

  least know is a good product that is at

  least coming out right and coming out

  you know with high quality even if it

  costs too much for some people to be

  able to justify I'd rather sell that

  than to do what we had this year and see

  people sending in pictures of the sure

  that they were so excited to get and I

  see like it's missing a color or its

  slant it or it's badly a bad print job

  bad ink like that crushes me so I cannot

  deal with that again

  so I would not want to do the one duty

  spring anymore and I don't care what it

  does I don't I'd rather not sell

  t-shirts then sell teespring t-shirts

  again yeah I'm pretty similar in that in

  that feeling Marcos since you are just

  talking let's have you talk a little

  more why do you do all the ad reads

  that's my phil cohen by the way I just

  kind of do we never really talked about

  it the way it started with neutral the

  short answer is that that I don't want

  to do them in case you don't want

  doesn't want to do them and Marco does

  them yeah and so neither of us are gonna

  go hey Marco can we do that thing that

  would neither of us want to do no we're

  gonna let Marco so basically it's

  because Marco is nice enough to do them

  and Casey and I are nice enough to let

  him I used to sell them directly myself

  at the beginning so it started out that

  I was selling them so it just made sense

  for me to also read them because I was

  talking to the sponsors and learning

  what they wanted me to say and

  everything else these days I think

  anybody could do it but yeah I do it and

  I don't mind doing it and it's part of

  my workflow and it's totally fine and

  also a part of the thing like this is

  true and a lot of relationship

  situations very often there's one person

  that cares more about something in

  somebody else and I have a feeling Marco

  cares more about the ad reads than

  either one of us do so anymore they

  didn't do it the way the way how much

  tweaking he does to the ad copy and

  getting it so that he's happy with it

  III think that is a factor I think if

  either one of us did ad reads we would

  do it in a way that Marco does not find

  satisfactory definitely that is that is

  a good point all right I think this is

  going to be the last question and it's

  it should be a good one a Hans Schrader

  right saying I'm from Europe could John

  explain for a foreigner why he is so

  touchy on the subject of bagels no I'm

  gonna explain to Casey why he should

  select the question that I highlighted

  in yellow in the spreadsheet I can only

  see but so much of the spreadsheet at

  once my word 100 oh I am nowhere near

  there that's why I skipped it okay so

  the answer the question is the answer

  the question that John is answering is

  there are good bagels and there are

  things that vaguely resembled bagels and

  John and I both have reasons to prefer

  actually so this is a very simple thing

  everyone has foods that they growing up

  that are like regional or local to their

  family or whatever but they're nostalgic

  for it's like I want to have the

  that I had when I was a child that's the

  thing and bagels like that for me only

  bagels are pretty widely regional to the

  New York metro area so I grew up with

  the expectation that I can get bagels

  that taste in a certain way and pizza

  tastes a certain way pretty much

  anywhere and as you know a sheltered

  child who didn't travel too much I

  assume this was true everywhere in the

  United States but then when I went off

  to college I learned this is not true

  and even a little bit farther north and

  east everything I got that people called

  a bagel didn't taste like the things

  that I when I was growing up and I'd go

  back to New York and said no they're

  still there but nobody else has them and

  same thing with pizza so it's basically

  that's that's why it's important that

  bagels are made a certain way in the

  region where I grew up and because

  that's the sort of their entry point

  into the u.s. they have some stake in

  saying this is the way the bagels are

  quote unquote supposed to taste right

  and that I can't get them where I

  currently live so that's why I'm

  nostalgic for them that's it same thing

  with pizza pizza is actually probably

  worse than bagels but both of them I

  miss when I was on Long Island I had

  both oops reasonable for me thanks for

  sponsors this week betterment Warby

  Parker and Squarespace and we will see

  you next week

  now the show is over

  they didn't even mean to begin because

  it was accidental accidental

  johnny research Marco and Casey wouldn't

  let him

  because it was accidentally was

  accidental today cas pyl is Esther

  that's Casey less and a Artem a RM aunty

  Marco Arment and I are a Syracuse

  all right so the Zelda question is the

  one you want John it's the one in yellow

  I mean it's not it's not enough material

  for an after show but yeah I can't

  I have flux on so I can't tell what the

  hell is yellow right oh god I'm blind

  oh god I'm blind the problem say fluxes

  I don't like those things we came to

  tell you yellow all right

  Vincent's covered curved Vincent's

  curved I'll get this one day right so

  what is your what is the status on your

  breath of the wild progression did you

  finish every aspect of the game etc as I

  did with most questions I'll start this

  off I still very much enjoy the game but

  haven't played it in probably like a

  month and a half

  I've just been incredibly busy lately

  and haven't had a chance to sit down

  with it and also I think we discussed on

  the show at some point I am not very

  good at picking the game up and

  remembering exactly what I was doing

  when I put it down so I'll have like a

  particular task or mission or thing I

  want to accomplish but sometimes is like

  you know one of the official game tasks

  but sometimes it's like oh I want to go

  and get myself ready for this game test

  by going across the map and doing such

  and such thing or whatever the case may

  be and then I never write it down and

  completely forget and then I get

  frustrated when I pick the game back up

  because I I have no memory and need to

  like reestablish where I am and what I'm

  doing that's my two cents Marco let's

  talk Adar you playing Zelda at all no I

  don't know okay alright moving on to

  John well Marco can give us a tip update

  how is she doing it I don't um they're

  playing it sometimes I can't tell you

  how far they I have no idea try to

  participate in your family mar going

  down there watch you play your stupid

  sonic games

  okay watch sometimes but I have I have

  no idea how to communicate to you how

  far they are alright so for me and

  breath in the wild

  I don't usually 100% games I have 100%

  did many Zelda's is that series I play a

  lot I like a lot there's a chance I

  would have a hundred percent did breath

  of the wild if it wasn't for the co rock

  seeds I don't think I'm ever going to

  just too many of them but i have i'm

  coming close to doing every non seed

  thing in the non dlc portion of the game

  to the point we're also we doing things

  like having every possible armor set

  also fully upgraded i'm getting close to

  that it's like it was in reach and i

  might end up doing it for the dlc i did

  the the was it trial of the sword i did

  that so i master sword is fully charged

  up to 260 all the time which is awesome

  and also lasts so much longer time I did

  all the side quests in the DLC so I've

  done everything of a hundred percent of

  the DLC which was tiny or whatever it's

  not a big deal and like I said I'm don't

  even have all the shrines left I'm in

  the hundreds but I'm within striking

  distance of hundred presenting

  everything in the main game aside from

  the core exceeds