The Accidental Tech Podcast

235: Notch-Savvy

 

  that's didn't see I didn't see you out [TS]

  there swimming in the waves in fact I've [TS]

  never seen you swimming in them you got [TS]

  a there's a reason for that that's the [TS]

  next level of your Beach education [TS]

  learning how to swim in the ocean yeah [TS]

  that's that's unlikely because the ocean [TS]

  is full of things that eat you and stuff [TS]

  and that's I'm not gonna eat you it's [TS]

  fine you see all the people playing they [TS]

  live they go back to their homes it's [TS]

  fine most of them yeah every day every [TS]

  day have this the jellyfish are just [TS]

  taking people so we haven't spoken to [TS]

  each other in like a week and a half two [TS]

  weeks something like that but we are [TS]

  back together again back in the normal [TS]

  schedule we'll be back in the normal [TS]

  schedule as far as we know for at least [TS]

  a little while probably until the [TS]

  holidays start picking up and you know [TS]

  if things are gonna go back to normal we [TS]

  have to do what we always do and that is [TS]

  your favorite segment and mine and [TS]

  especially Jones asked ATP yeah that's [TS]

  it no it's follow-up so we are starting [TS]

  with the streaming music iPod shuffle [TS]

  like thing which is apparently something [TS]

  that uh that Spotify I don't know if [TS]

  it's for is it first party I don't know [TS]

  anyway it's a thing that's for Spotify [TS]

  that's called mighty which is a peculiar [TS]

  name that is basically an iPod shuffle [TS]

  but for Spotify [TS]

  from what I've gathered so John can you [TS]

  tell me a little more about this [TS]

  everybody sent us links to this thing [TS]

  and eventually The Verge picked it up to [TS]

  is that's what we'll link in the show [TS]

  notes because we're talking about a [TS]

  place in the market for something like [TS]

  an iPod shuffle but this doesn't really [TS]

  qualify because first of all it's not 50 [TS]

  bucks is 85 second it does not have cell [TS]

  data access you'd only has Wi-Fi and [TS]

  Bluetooth so you know we're saying less [TS]

  show was the last show maybe a show [TS]

  before that you know eventually you'll [TS]

  be able to make one of these fifty bucks [TS]

  that can just stream music we're not [TS]

  there yet but this one definitely looks [TS]

  like doesn't look like an iPod shuffle [TS]

  looks like a fisher-price versa it's [TS]

  probably better this is the thing that [TS]

  was annoying about the shuffle is that [TS]

  it's so minimal and you needed to like [TS]

  feel your hand on it to do like volume [TS]

  up or down or next previous track right [TS]

  you could find the middle button pretty [TS]

  well but because it was a circle trying [TS]

  to make sure that you're hitting up on [TS]

  the circle and [TS]

  instead of right or left which can be [TS]

  very bad if you're in the middle of a [TS]

  podcast especially before they got the [TS]

  software updated or for your track on [TS]

  her it wasn't marked as a podcast and [TS]

  iTunes and it was just a song and you [TS]

  hit the button and just lose your place [TS]

  entirely you couldn't feel with your [TS]

  finger what what is up and what is down [TS]

  this was a little bit better because the [TS]

  center thing is a square so you could [TS]

  feel the flat edge anyway it's just [TS]

  another coincidence of a product that is [TS]

  kind of like what we're talking about [TS]

  but not really like it so well come back [TS]

  in ten years Marco tell me that audio [TS]

  bit depth because apparently we got that [TS]

  ever so slightly wrong well I wouldn't [TS]

  say that [TS]

  so last show we had some discussion [TS]

  about whether Apple should or ever will [TS]

  sell higher resolution music you know so [TS]

  it was like the audiophile world loves [TS]

  high bitrate high sample rate music like [TS]

  24 192 and stuff like that [TS]

  so a may have Mottram writes in to say [TS]

  well I understand how resolution audio [TS]

  isn't for everybody I was disappointed [TS]

  that you guys get the basic terminology [TS]

  wrong given the technical bias either [TS]

  show an audience a follow-up item [TS]

  addressing the difference between bit [TS]

  depth and bitrate would be appreciated [TS]

  so basically so bitrate is how many bits [TS]

  a an encoding scheme is using you know [TS]

  usually per second to encode the total [TS]

  music so in a lossy scheme this [TS]

  basically like mp3 they would be like [TS]

  128 kilobits per second and that is just [TS]

  like the quality level of the music that [TS]

  you're getting it's it's how many bits [TS]

  it will allocate to representing it and [TS]

  usually the more bits you allocate to it [TS]

  the higher quality you can achieve and [TS]

  the less you have to throw away bit [TS]

  depth is basically talking about how [TS]

  precise the samples are everybody can [TS]

  kind of picture what a wave looks like [TS]

  you know that's how sound waves come in [TS]

  and represented in the uncompressed form [TS]

  this actually doesn't apply to things [TS]

  like mp3 quite the same way because the [TS]

  way the senator is represented is [TS]

  different but basically when you're [TS]

  looking at just a pure wave form and the [TS]

  way that's represented in like a [TS]

  lossless file or a wave or or or AIFF [TS]

  every sample of audio is and you have a [TS]

  separate of like you know 44,100 samples [TS]

  per second or whatever else represent us [TS]

  Hertz every one of those samples it's [TS]

  representing the amp [TS]

  to that wave as a number and the [TS]

  bit-depth is the precision of those [TS]

  numbers so if it's 16-bit like CDs then [TS]

  that is represented by a 16-bit signed [TS]

  integer if it's 24-bit you have more [TS]

  bits if it's usually it I think a 24 or [TS]

  I think beyond 24 it's always float and [TS]

  you have floating point presentations [TS]

  and the reason these matter is that as [TS]

  you're encoding the music to these [TS]

  samples there you have to fit a number [TS]

  the value that you're getting from like [TS]

  the analog or whatever you have to fit [TS]

  the value of that into this many bits of [TS]

  a number per sample and so there's a [TS]

  certain degree of rounding that happens [TS]

  and a certain degree of error that's [TS]

  introduced as part of that rounding if [TS]

  you only have 16 bits then that's that [TS]

  kind of limits your resolution of how [TS]

  you know how precise of a number you can [TS]

  represent there and so there's all sorts [TS]

  of complicated things that go on in Dax [TS]

  and ATC's about basically how you round [TS]

  the numbers in such a way to minimize [TS]

  the error or to hide the error and [TS]

  different noise patterns and everything [TS]

  else as you increase the error rate you [TS]

  increase the noise floor so you ain't [TS]

  you you reduce these signal-to-noise [TS]

  ratio that's the difference between the [TS]

  loudest sound you can hear and the [TS]

  quietest sound that can be represented [TS]

  but you know below like the noise floor [TS]

  so you basically increase like the [TS]

  hislop the very bottom of the track the [TS]

  reason why audiophiles freaked out about [TS]

  this is because when you go from 16-bit [TS]

  - 24-bit which is where they usually go [TS]

  the noise floor does drop considerably [TS]

  there's a great Wikipedia article title [TS]

  audio a bit depth you should check it [TS]

  out [TS]

  basically the noise floor at 24 bits for [TS]

  four bit depth is 144 decibels and it's [TS]

  16 bits the regular CD standards only 96 [TS]

  so that's a pretty big difference [TS]

  however the reason that doesn't really [TS]

  matter for the most part is that 96 [TS]

  decibels of suitable noise ratio covers [TS]

  the human audible hearing range pretty [TS]

  well the actual human audible hearing is [TS]

  just something like 120 decibels it [TS]

  varies per person a little bit but it's [TS]

  around a hundred mils so it actually [TS]

  isn't representing the entire human [TS]

  audible hearing range but it's [TS]

  like you don't want to turn your [TS]

  speaker's up so loud that you're [TS]

  actually damaging your eardrums like the [TS]

  human hearing range can go much higher [TS]

  in in volume than what you actually [TS]

  should ever be listening to on a [TS]

  sustained basis like that's like you [TS]

  know a rock concert or a jet airplane [TS]

  flying overhead or things about its if [TS]

  you listen at any reasonable length to [TS]

  something that loud you're gonna damage [TS]

  your hearing pretty quickly permanently [TS]

  so 90s accessible zuv signal noise ratio [TS]

  which is what you get from CD quality [TS]

  16-bit audio is good enough upon [TS]

  listening where it matters is if you are [TS]

  editing if you're proud if you're [TS]

  recording like I record my end of the [TS]

  show is 24-bit I record audio 24-bit [TS]

  whenever I can or as float even whenever [TS]

  I can with 32-bit usually because when [TS]

  you're editing you're changing the [TS]

  numbers you're processing the audio and [TS]

  so if you have rounding error over time [TS]

  that could add up after you apply [TS]

  certain number of like filters or [TS]

  adjustments or anything like that and [TS]

  then that 96 decibels of noise floor [TS]

  that was in the original signal once you [TS]

  process it a few times and you're [TS]

  rounding off the numbers a few more [TS]

  times you might actually have more error [TS]

  in the signal than that and the noise [TS]

  floor might start to become audible so [TS]

  we're higher bitrate audio makes sense [TS]

  is in mastering and editing and [TS]

  recording but the final shift version [TS]

  that you that you release to the public [TS]

  or the version that you the listener are [TS]

  listening to doesn't need to be more [TS]

  than 16-bit for almost any reason [TS]

  whatsoever [TS]

  all right sorry that's all it says Oh [TS]

  Marco that you you really care about [TS]

  audio I don't understand where this [TS]

  comes from if you want also there's a [TS]

  wonderful video that explains a lot of [TS]

  this [TS]

  there's a guy Monty I think his full [TS]

  name is Chris Montgomery he is you know [TS]

  the guy or one of the people who [TS]

  invented the aw glorious audio codec and [TS]

  he has a lot of great explainers out [TS]

  there about basically like why you don't [TS]

  need higher than CD quality audio as a [TS]

  listener and and explains a lot of the [TS]

  stuff that I learned a lot from that and [TS]

  it's my other research but I'll have [TS]

  both these links in the show notes about [TS]

  that video and the Wikipedia article on [TS]

  audio bit depth excellent so we had a [TS]

  couple of thoughts or listeners had a [TS]

  couple of thoughts about the iPhone [TS]

  crow knotch and I'm embarrassed to admit [TS]

  that there's one thought that I didn't [TS]

  consider so I'm in the camp that I think [TS]

  not having seen anything of course that [TS]

  it makes the most sense to to kind of [TS]

  hide the knotch so hypothetically the [TS]

  area adjacent to the notch would be all [TS]

  black so it all kind of blend together [TS]

  and it would just look like empty screen [TS]

  in the center and it would look not too [TS]

  dissimilar from the way a phone looks [TS]

  today [TS]

  but somebody maybe there's one of you [TS]

  guys thought we'll okay smart guy what [TS]

  happens when you go landscape and I [TS]

  don't have a good answer for that I'm [TS]

  really ashamed myself that I didn't even [TS]

  think about this yeah until I saw this [TS]

  in the show notes so Marco what do you [TS]

  think about what happens when you put [TS]

  this supposed phone in landscape so [TS]

  obviously it depends on like how they [TS]

  handle the notch in the in the UI [TS]

  if the notch is basically hidden and you [TS]

  just have like status bar black on left [TS]

  and right and then you have like a [TS]

  square window below it that takes of the [TS]

  rest of the screen which as I mentioned [TS]

  previously that's what I kind of hope [TS]

  they do if that's what they do then I [TS]

  think it's pretty easy in landscape you [TS]

  just leave those little strips black and [TS]

  you don't use them at all that's [TS]

  probably not what they will do I have a [TS]

  feeling what they actually will do is [TS]

  you know shove translucent UI under [TS]

  those and have ways to actually you know [TS]

  use it in a way that might be kind of [TS]

  awkward now in landscape the only reason [TS]

  I think anybody to use their phones in [TS]

  landscape I think probably the big ones [TS]

  are watching video although even that a [TS]

  lot of people watch it in portrait [TS]

  anyway just because they're they that's [TS]

  how they are used to holding their [TS]

  phones also certain games play in [TS]

  landscape although again I think the [TS]

  most successful ones playing portrait on [TS]

  the phone and then the other thing as I [TS]

  guess when you're when you're taking [TS]

  video or shooting with the camera you [TS]

  might rotate it so all those things [TS]

  could they could make ways to to use the [TS]

  knotch [TS]

  in a few clever ways like maybe a game [TS]

  could show some controls in there maybe [TS]

  the camera can show some controls in [TS]

  there but I haven't feeling most of what [TS]

  we're gonna see is basically going to be [TS]

  in landscape the not just becomes black [TS]

  and you don't see it at all yeah I think [TS]

  you can't can't do anything with the [TS]

  knotch inland [TS]

  escaped because anything that you would [TS]

  think of doing would represent data loss [TS]

  to the content in portrait the status [TS]

  bar is not your content it's part of the [TS]

  UI so you can do whatever dance you want [TS]

  to do with the status bar whether it you [TS]

  know hides in there or the status bar is [TS]

  the blower ever but how if you're in [TS]

  landscape and you're doing video or [TS]

  something even if the OS lets you go [TS]

  edge to edge and use the notches what if [TS]

  you want to see what's under the camera [TS]

  things it's like something's in my way I [TS]

  can't I can't see what the camera [TS]

  shooting there no maybe that's not [TS]

  important was there was something that [TS]

  was angry about oh I think it was like [TS]

  QuickTime Player many years ago maybe [TS]

  still now I don't know I still use [TS]

  QuickTime Player seven but at one point [TS]

  Apple I believe Apple released a video [TS]

  player I think it was the QuickTime [TS]

  Player [TS]

  that would show video in a window with [TS]

  rounded corners and it was like what's [TS]

  like don't chop off the corner it's like [TS]

  there's video in those corners why this [TS]

  is a lot of video but there is video [TS]

  there and just like no you don't need to [TS]

  see that because it's more important for [TS]

  this window to ever end of course than [TS]

  for you to see the video that's in that [TS]

  corner and I know it's just a small [TS]

  thing but just on the principle it's [TS]

  like if you do that I don't even have [TS]

  the option to see what's under the [TS]

  knotch [TS]

  right so I think you have to just when [TS]

  you go into landscape I feel like the OS [TS]

  are just enforced entirely maybe games [TS]

  come up with something clever like [TS]

  little men climb on the knotch writer [TS]

  than not just like a little gun turret [TS]

  or something but McGee yeah cuz you can [TS]

  incorporate it and be fun but it would [TS]

  only work in this one model of phone [TS]

  it's just so much safer to say when [TS]

  anybody goes in landscape forget about [TS]

  the notch we don't light up the pixels [TS]

  on either side of it the thing is just [TS]

  you know it's just a straight line down [TS]

  the edge I also saw by the way it's [TS]

  another mock-up image for a while ago [TS]

  showing screen real estate wise what do [TS]

  you get with the edge to edge phone and [TS]

  I know this can't be true because this [TS]

  one's got to be wider than the iPhone 7 [TS]

  - but it was like basically trying to [TS]

  say you don't really get any new space [TS]

  because all the new pixels on the bottom [TS]

  are taken up essentially with the home [TS]

  button area and whatever they're going [TS]

  to do [TS]

  there and this thing was assuming that [TS]

  like the UI and navbar wasn't gonna [TS]

  throw stuff there and in the top you've [TS]

  got the notch and then you got a little [TS]

  sliver of space and then you've got the [TS]

  normal iPhone sized screen in between [TS]

  those two things and little sliver of [TS]

  space was like look like a little status [TS]

  bar so the idea was that I guess if you [TS]

  had a non optimized for iPhone Pro [TS]

  application it would show its status bar [TS]

  below the knotch in the traditional way [TS]

  because between the bottom of the notch [TS]

  in the top of the software home button [TS]

  area would be a screen that is the same [TS]

  resolution as some existing a high phone [TS]

  anyway that's that's the impression I [TS]

  got from this image but the more I think [TS]

  about them I think I can't possibly be [TS]

  the case because at the very least it [TS]

  should be wider everything other stuff [TS]

  but it would be weird if there was like [TS]

  a backward compatibility mode for [TS]

  unmodified apps that were not like notch [TS]

  savvy you know what I mean like they [TS]

  could they miss that you know he was [TS]

  like that it's inelegant they took they [TS]

  you know phone apps run it to X on your [TS]

  iPad to this day and it looks terrible [TS]

  and they zoom things that have not been [TS]

  updated for the iPhone 5 for more like [TS]

  they in the past they've done that and [TS]

  it's been a good choice but it's like [TS]

  look if people don't update their apps [TS]

  will make them run as close as possible [TS]

  to the way they used to run so the app [TS]

  has no idea that is running a totally [TS]

  new weird phone it just looks a little [TS]

  bit strange but it's completely [TS]

  compatible because we don't do anything [TS]

  weird and I can imagine that happening [TS]

  with with this new phone which will be [TS]

  bad but I guess will motivate people to [TS]

  incorporate the notch into their [TS]

  applications fair enough now why bother [TS]

  having the notch in the first place [TS]

  again this is one of my thoughts why are [TS]

  we doing this way I have a notch like [TS]

  the edge to edge screen alright yeah we [TS]

  won't have an edge miscreant but why do [TS]

  we have to have a notch of that you can [TS]

  go all the way to the left it all went [TS]

  to the right edge and all the way to the [TS]

  bottom edge all you had to do is not go [TS]

  all the way to the top edge instead of [TS]

  having a notch you have a presumably [TS]

  very thin little forehead it would still [TS]

  be a quote-unquote edge to edge screen [TS]

  as compared to all I phones previously [TS]

  would have very large chins and for [TS]

  Red's right the the notch is [TS]

  asymmetrical and so with the the the [TS]

  skinny little forehead version but it [TS]

  would last a symmetrical John the notch [TS]

  I mean well but you know the whole point [TS]

  is there's something that's Hoppus out [TS]

  on the bottom whether it's a skinny [TS]

  thing if something's happen anyway and [TS]

  it would just it would just eliminate an [TS]

  entire class we would solve our problems [TS]

  so presumably Apple has done a lot of [TS]

  work in the OS and then the frameworks [TS]

  figuring out the answers to all these [TS]

  questions that we're just guessing at [TS]

  now right they've done they've figured [TS]

  out answers to all of these they've [TS]

  decided what they're gonna do in all [TS]

  these different cases tested [TS]

  applications test the new API so you can [TS]

  be notch savvy and do all this stuff [TS]

  right all that work would go away if [TS]

  they just made the notch go from edge to [TS]

  edge but I guess the phone wouldn't look [TS]

  as cool and then you know I don't know [TS]

  like does anyone else have a notch [TS]

  example gonna be the first night run I [TS]

  know there are phones out there that [TS]

  already look like edge to edge screen [TS]

  both a little skinny for head so maybe [TS]

  Apple just didn't want to look like that [TS]

  one of those things where if Apple was [TS]

  like other companies and like you could [TS]

  they have like interviews with the [TS]

  designer it's like you get the whole [TS]

  team that design the new iPhone and [TS]

  they'd help to do a big article and like [TS]

  wired or something and be like tell me [TS]

  about your motivation for design there [TS]

  and they would like explain why they [TS]

  went with the knotch [TS]

  right but we never get those reasons [TS]

  just like this is the phone here it is [TS]

  maybe there's a sentence and a key note [TS]

  about it which Apple never ever [TS]

  elaborate on yeah like so we just have [TS]

  to wait 20 years for the tell-all books [TS]

  but it's a bit of a head-scratcher for [TS]

  me because I think it looks cool to [TS]

  notch I think there's gonna be some [TS]

  interesting possibilities there but it [TS]

  is a heck of a lot of work and it seems [TS]

  like a stopgap like if we're gonna have [TS]

  not just forever presumably whatever [TS]

  tech issues necessitate the knotch will [TS]

  diminish over time either your old embed [TS]

  those sensors someplace else or you'll [TS]

  be able to make such a skinny forehead [TS]

  that it won't even be a far heaven would [TS]

  just be like thing goes to edge to edge [TS]

  or I don't know the good that this is [TS]

  not the permanent state of what like [TS]

  well all future iPhones have notches for [TS]

  the next seven years there's gonna be [TS]

  notches from here to there but I dunno I [TS]

  kept doing all this work with the OS and [TS]

  everything it seemed like a waste if [TS]

  it's just like there [TS]

  the time we rejiggered all the the [TS]

  frameworks in the west of this one phone [TS]

  and it was the only one that ended up [TS]

  having a notch I don't know we'll find [TS]

  out in the fall I guess yeah this is [TS]

  this is why what I want to happen [TS]

  although I don't think this is what will [TS]

  happen again but what I want to happen [TS]

  here is I want the notch to to basically [TS]

  be invisible in the software like I want [TS]

  it to just have a status bar on left and [TS]

  right then then you you get the extra 20 [TS]

  point height that the status bar would [TS]

  have taken up in the main screen you can [TS]

  shove that up and in you know into this [TS]

  little side area where there is no [TS]

  center but you can rearrange status bar [TS]

  and in the application frame is just [TS]

  everything below that I would love that [TS]

  was the solution [TS]

  I don't want as a user and as a [TS]

  programmer of apps for this thing and as [TS]

  a designer of the app I do not want to [TS]

  have to deal with the knotch [TS]

  I think it will be clunky and weird and [TS]

  I think it will look weird as a user I'm [TS]

  not looking forward to that at all and I [TS]

  do think it looks like an inelegant hack [TS]

  and if Samsung would have released that [TS]

  knotch [TS]

  and Apple didn't we'd make fun of them [TS]

  for it that's exactly the kind of thing [TS]

  we'd be like oh you guys are bad at [TS]

  design look at those stupid knotch just [TS]

  like the flea and like the flat tire [TS]

  moto 360 watch like we made fun of that [TS]

  relentlessly everyone in Apple world did [TS]

  because that was that was like a bad [TS]

  design hack to get around a physical [TS]

  shortcoming I don't see how the notch is [TS]

  any different that looks like a bad [TS]

  design hack to get her in a facility or [TS]

  coding domain again we'll see what [TS]

  happens when when we see the final [TS]

  software but I really do not want the UI [TS]

  in any way to wrap around that except [TS]

  the status bar in a way that you barely [TS]

  even notice but because of that leaked [TS]

  image from the home hot firmware showing [TS]

  that knotch as like the recognizable [TS]

  iconic shape of this phone that's the [TS]

  reason I'm concerned that they're not [TS]

  doing it that way now let's ben lock [TS]

  screen like i said it may yeah maybe [TS]

  just the lockscreen that that wouldn't [TS]

  be too bad but if it's any other parts [TS]

  of the UI like if they scroll [TS]

  translucent bars under there or anything [TS]

  with that i really i don't think i'm [TS]

  going to like that that again it seems [TS]

  like that seems like a bad design hack [TS]

  not good design [TS]

  so people that chatroom are posting [TS]

  pictures of of course android phones [TS]

  that have their own little notches the [TS]

  one they're saying showing here it's a [TS]

  very tiny notch it just wraps around one [TS]

  low [TS]

  facing camera cuz obviously the you know [TS]

  what is uh the the new phone supposedly [TS]

  have a notch instead of just this little [TS]

  tiny button like cut out because it's [TS]

  got to have more than just a camera [TS]

  there maybe they'll have two front [TS]

  facing cameras certainly it's got the IR [TS]

  sensor for depths of the face stuff like [TS]

  who knows what's in that notch but it [TS]

  can't be smallest but anybody as in all [TS]

  things Android phones have done first so [TS]

  I think actually Simpsons did a first [TS]

  round then opera hopper that Simpsons [TS]

  did it is the line opera did it first is [TS]

  that joke so I think opera wins this one [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  did you really just well actually mean [TS]

  the sad part is right we are sponsored [TS]

  this week by Eero go to Iran calm and [TS]

  use code ATP for free overnight shipping [TS]

  Wi-Fi when you only have one router just [TS]

  doesn't cover houses very well because [TS]

  Wi-Fi waves don't go through walls as [TS]

  well as I go through open spaces and you [TS]

  get these dead zones and everything else [TS]

  euro is designed to solve that problem [TS]

  because businesses and schools and [TS]

  campuses have done this for a long time [TS]

  they use multiple access points and if [TS]

  you did this for your home it was a very [TS]

  very complicated before euro euro makes [TS]

  it incredibly easy to have a distributed [TS]

  Wi-Fi system enterprise-grade Wi-Fi in [TS]

  your home with the easiest setup of any [TS]

  system I've ever seen all you do you [TS]

  plug it in you use their app on your [TS]

  iPhone or your Android phone and sets it [TS]

  up and you have to do literally almost [TS]

  nothing so you get the one main unit and [TS]

  they've actually just updated their [TS]

  hardware the old ones are great too but [TS]

  they just did the generation 2 system so [TS]

  this has the main unit which is now [TS]

  tribe and as twice and twice as fast as [TS]

  the first one has hold a radio you have [TS]

  these now these secondary units they [TS]

  used to be the same as the as the main [TS]

  unit now they have these little ones [TS]

  called beacons and they are even smaller [TS]

  even simpler they look like kind of just [TS]

  slightly larger than a night light and [TS]

  you just plug it in sits flush in your [TS]

  outlet it looks amazing it's tiny it's [TS]

  unobtrusive they even actually have [TS]

  night lights in the bottom of the [TS]

  beacons look is pretty cool so if you [TS]

  put it like in a hallway or anything and [TS]

  it makes it so easy to place anywhere [TS]

  and that covers the whole house and they [TS]

  don't have to be wired to each other [TS]

  only the first one has to be wired to [TS]

  your home's internet connection [TS]

  and the other ones you just they [TS]

  distribute the Wi-Fi with a mesh network [TS]

  between themselves so you don't have to [TS]

  worry about running Ethernet wires to [TS]

  your access points or anything else it's [TS]

  super super easy with the new second [TS]

  generation and the ear a beacon [TS]

  performance is even better the looks or [TS]

  even nicer and it's even smaller what [TS]

  you need is this kind of system single [TS]

  routers are not good enough anymore they [TS]

  don't cover houses we all know that they [TS]

  we've all done that for years no matter [TS]

  how many antennas you put on one it [TS]

  doesn't cover everything an euro is by [TS]

  far the easiest way to do this I've ever [TS]

  seen so check it out they have great [TS]

  support if you need it they have great [TS]

  pricing go to Eero calm and use promo [TS]

  code ATP to get free overnight shipping [TS]

  thanks to ero for sponsoring our show [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  anyway [TS]

  wisdom camera kerimov of 1password i [TS]

  believe a co-founder if I'm not mistaken [TS]

  has a written blog post to say among [TS]

  other things one password 7th windows [TS]

  will be getting support for standalone [TS]

  vaults which is the thing that started [TS]

  the big kerfuffle a few weeks ago also [TS]

  WLAN sync and different license related [TS]

  information John any other thoughts you [TS]

  want to add on this no just that this is [TS]

  another in that pattern we've seen for a [TS]

  couple of a couple of years now that [TS]

  like a company will change some part of [TS]

  its product either the features or the [TS]

  business model or both and then a bunch [TS]

  of people get angry about it and then [TS]

  there's always it's always the follow-up [TS]

  we're like they've incorporated the [TS]

  feedback from their customers like they [TS]

  you know they were taken by surprise by [TS]

  how you know angry people are about a [TS]

  particular thing and they all right well [TS]

  we can change that you know to reassure [TS]

  people that like we're not gonna you [TS]

  know the description thing is not going [TS]

  to take away your ability to have all [TS]

  your stuff locally you don't have to use [TS]

  the cloud so on and so forth so looks [TS]

  like they are doing the right things [TS]

  yeah I saw a lot of feedback about this [TS]

  a lot of people talked about well if if [TS]

  everything goes subscription then I'm [TS]

  not gonna have any money for anything [TS]

  anymore and I don't know I feel like we [TS]

  should address that perhaps again I [TS]

  don't know what did we talk about this [TS]

  Marko covered it the last time we talked [TS]

  about it [TS]

  I agree it's fresh in my mind it's fresh [TS]

  in my mind I listen to those shows just [TS]

  recently did [TS]

  but yeah like it is it's kind of a [TS]

  slippery slope argument but so far it [TS]

  hasn't happened and it there is a [TS]

  there's a natural counterbalance which [TS]

  is well if people don't like it they [TS]

  won't buy it and if they don't buy it [TS]

  people won't do it like so it's you know [TS]

  there's there aren't many forces in the [TS]

  mix here that are going to cause this [TS]

  dystopia to happen despite the fact that [TS]

  users don't want it like it's possible [TS]

  for there to be countervailing forces [TS]

  for example if Apple said hey guess what [TS]

  the only way you could sell plication is [TS]

  in the app course it's a subscription [TS]

  but that that's not the way things are [TS]

  so I it's not not time to be worried [TS]

  about it now don't like it don't buy it [TS]

  exactly exactly what I was gonna say if [TS]

  something if something that you you like [TS]

  but don't love suddenly become [TS]

  subscription then guess what you're you [TS]

  have an option which is not to get a [TS]

  subscription that's okay the one thing I [TS]

  will say though is that the the if if a [TS]

  app goes from not subscription to [TS]

  subscription like there's no way around [TS]

  that that's going to happen from time to [TS]

  time and that is tough right because [TS]

  here it is you thought you paid for [TS]

  something in some cases that that you [TS]

  would have for a while although you [TS]

  should not have expected that you have [TS]

  it forever and then the the cost changes [TS]

  and that's a bummer like the I don't [TS]

  mean to be sarcastic all at all about [TS]

  that that really is a bummer but there's [TS]

  different trade-offs to like that one [TS]

  person who said like what if I lose my [TS]

  job I don't want to also lose all my [TS]

  programs because I can't afford to pay [TS]

  their monthly bills anymore [TS]

  well you know that's the smile I lose my [TS]

  job I don't want to lose cable TV [TS]

  because they can't afford the bill [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  well you know it's like well I need this [TS]

  offer to do my job like there presumably [TS]

  every single application an entire [TS]

  category won't be subscription right or [TS]

  even if it is maybe they'll have varying [TS]

  subscriptions and right now the [TS]

  subscriptions are like three bucks a [TS]

  month so I feel like if you can't script [TS]

  you know three dollars a month you have [TS]

  much bigger problems than not being able [TS]

  to use your graphics program to produce [TS]

  spec work which you shouldn't be doing [TS]

  anyway to get your next job so anyway [TS]

  you know in times of hardship many [TS]

  things are difficult from paying your [TS]

  rent to your food your health insurance [TS]

  your software licenses are just another [TS]

  one of those potential things that could [TS]

  be a problem but you know if there's a [TS]

  need for this then if this is a real [TS]

  problem [TS]

  someone will fill it by selling a [TS]

  program for a fixed price [TS]

  and you know selling upgrades in the [TS]

  traditional way or going into business [TS]

  because they can't sustain their one [TS]

  application but hey you've got it until [TS]

  it stops working I mean there's always [TS]

  options to like you know look at what [TS]

  like high school kids and college kids [TS]

  and people in developing countries like [TS]

  there's a lot of markets of people who [TS]

  can't afford a bunch of software [TS]

  licenses or subscriptions and they find [TS]

  other options [TS]

  piracy maybe he's not the best option [TS]

  but it's certainly a widespread one a [TS]

  much better option is free software [TS]

  alternatives almost every kind of task [TS]

  you can do in a computer today has some [TS]

  kind of free software alternative to the [TS]

  big-name one Photoshop Illustrator you [TS]

  know audio processing stuff like all [TS]

  that like almost all these like big [TS]

  creative apps or productivity apps they [TS]

  almost all have freeware alternatives [TS]

  free open-source if not just you know [TS]

  free alternatives and not to mention you [TS]

  know the all the stuff built into the OS [TS]

  is these days or doing things on on iOS [TS]

  and Android where the apps cost very [TS]

  very little money usually and usually [TS]

  you you you know buy it once if anything [TS]

  and it's free and you can do a lot of [TS]

  free stuff there or we do a lot of [TS]

  inexpensive stuff there with tools that [TS]

  are really good these days like there's [TS]

  lots of options now I think that I think [TS]

  the D like I can't afford all my [TS]

  software subscriptions thing is mostly a [TS]

  complaint from people who very much [TS]

  can't afford them and are just looking [TS]

  for a reason to be upset about a pricing [TS]

  change because when you change the [TS]

  business model that's when people get [TS]

  upset it matters a lot less what you [TS]

  change it to then the fact that you [TS]

  changed it and people feel may be [TS]

  surprised or caught off guard by that or [TS]

  feel like they're being taken advantage [TS]

  of like after the fact you're changing [TS]

  the deal you know after the fact you [TS]

  know I know pray you don't sort of [TS]

  further etc I don't again I don't think [TS]

  this is a real issue I I don't think [TS]

  this is something that anybody is [TS]

  actually facing hardship over in any [TS]

  real numbers this is people complaining [TS]

  who very much can't afford it and and [TS]

  are just mad and for the people who [TS]

  truly can't afford it there's lots of [TS]

  great options out there that are either [TS]

  inexpensive or free and many of them are [TS]

  built into the OS you already have and [TS]

  whatever isn't you can get in your App [TS]

  Store of choice or your online [TS]

  repository of software of choice [TS]

  for very little money or nothing usually [TS]

  because this is not like people use [TS]

  computers without paying for things on [TS]

  them for a very long time this is this [TS]

  is a solved problem in so many ways all [TS]

  right [TS]

  ero wants to know is there any reason [TS]

  not to use the built-in calibration [TS]

  tools on the Apple TV you can get to [TS]

  that from the opportunity settings audio [TS]

  and video calibrate you can use them but [TS]

  they're terrible I mean like they're [TS]

  terrible they're limited like I think at [TS]

  all it does is like screen bounds and [TS]

  maybe like one other thing like it [TS]

  doesn't do all the color or white [TS]

  balance greyscale brightness contrast [TS]

  you know doesn't do all that stuff if [TS]

  they want to improve that in a future [TS]

  version TV also would be great but the [TS]

  current one and I believe the one in the [TS]

  the betas it still does very limit it's [TS]

  better than nothing so by all means do [TS]

  it in so you can see if you're in a case [TS]

  you like situation where you're missing [TS]

  half the pixels on your screen because [TS]

  not half but some portion of the pixels [TS]

  on your screen because you have your [TS]

  thing an over scan mode and that may [TS]

  make you sad to know that but beyond [TS]

  that you still need the calibration it [TS]

  fine fine [TS]

  all right apparently Samir Mizrahi [TS]

  listens to our show or at least that's [TS]

  what I'm going to claim because mere [TS]

  weeks maybe even a few days after we had [TS]

  discussed how frustrating it is to hear [TS]

  the first song in your library every [TS]

  time you reconnect the ax Bluetooth this [TS]

  this individual has released a single on [TS]

  iTunes called aaaa a very good song and [TS]

  it is it's a little less than 10 minutes [TS]

  of silence because apparently any more [TS]

  than 10 minutes and iTunes charges you [TS]

  for a whole album and the idea is [TS]

  because it's a space a space a space a [TS]

  space a space very good song it is very [TS]

  likely to be the very first song in your [TS]

  in your library so every time you plug [TS]

  in your phone or start bluetooth or [TS]

  what-have-you you don't hear the same in [TS]

  my case track by olya every single time [TS]

  so this is an absolutely brilliant [TS]

  solution to a problem that none of us [TS]

  should really have my favorite thing [TS]

  about this is how far up the charts it [TS]

  was climbing like we saw some articles [TS]

  about it [TS]

  in there I don't have anything hand [TS]

  unfortunately cuz I'm a slacker on [TS]

  vacation but like it was it was [TS]

  noticeably ranking on the iTunes top [TS]

  singles chart somewhere why you're not [TS]

  allowed to start with like a spacer you [TS]

  know a punctuation character or number [TS]

  or all the other things that would have [TS]

  sorted before the A's because I feel [TS]

  like now now this is now you've started [TS]

  a war now for who can be the earliest [TS]

  try no don't get that AAA track you need [TS]

  my track which is one one one I'll get [TS]

  money it's it's space space space [TS]

  exclamation point anyway well I feel [TS]

  like that's kind of like a like a [TS]

  million dollar homepage problem like [TS]

  anybody else who tries the same thing is [TS]

  it's not gonna get anywhere yeah I I'm [TS]

  just thanked for sorting purposes not [TS]

  for like actually selling the thing um [TS]

  but you know everyone sent us this [TS]

  obviously but it doesn't solve the [TS]

  problem at all in fact I think it makes [TS]

  it worse the fact that it sound makes it [TS]

  worse because if I had this track I [TS]

  would be like waiting and thinking am i [TS]

  hearing the silent track or is it just [TS]

  taking a long time to start playing like [TS]

  is it launching overcast in the [TS]

  background or and like you know the [TS]

  problem is not I keep hearing the first [TS]

  you know few notes of a song because the [TS]

  alphabet be alphabetically first song in [TS]

  my playlist I like it's a good song and [TS]

  I'm not sick of it because I never [TS]

  listened it the whole thing I frustrated [TS]

  by the fact that it has picked the wrong [TS]

  source and by the way after I said like [TS]

  most of the time that's the right thing [TS]

  maybe 15 percent of the time I get the [TS]

  wrong thing [TS]

  this thing is taken revenge on me and my [TS]

  last like 50 trips in the car one [TS]

  percent of the time and I started [TS]

  playing music even if I was just playing [TS]

  I don't know if it's overcast beta is [TS]

  crashing or I don't know what the hell's [TS]

  going on but anyway it's really bad for [TS]

  me wait there is no current beta you [TS]

  should be using the App Store version [TS]

  well that's the problem do I have a [TS]

  little dot next overcast on my phone [TS]

  it's a bug right now I do I do get rid [TS]

  of that alright anyway maybe that's my [TS]

  problem but either way this this crack [TS]

  would not solve my problem in I mean [TS]

  what did she really be as a voice that [TS]

  says it happened again you you thought [TS]

  different audio we were playing but [TS]

  instead it's playing this song from your [TS]

  playlist pull over safely and then [TS]

  fiddle with your phone don't try to do [TS]

  it while you're driving because [TS]

  you'll run somebody over or you'll die [TS]

  but you'd be sick of hearing that bottom [TS]

  line is there is no safe track to put [TS]

  there and I don't think the silence [TS]

  solves the problem I think it makes it [TS]

  worse but more power to this person for [TS]

  seven people [TS]

  the sounds of silence all right I don't [TS]

  know how to sell music on iTunes but can [TS]

  we cut that out and actually try this [TS]

  and then be the way to solve this I know [TS]

  we have some listeners inside of Apple I [TS]

  don't know how high up they go but the [TS]

  way to solve this is to somehow get a [TS]

  hold of Johnny Ives or Tim Cook's iPhone [TS]

  and sync a single track to it that is a [TS]

  renamed version of some very annoying [TS]

  song that is renamed to be like a Abe's [TS]

  me I don't know the the the the [TS]

  possibilities are endless of what's [TS]

  honest could be [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  you know something something really that [TS]

  would really dread the most this problem [TS]

  will get solved in the next version of [TS]

  iOS it fails Karl just B can innovate [TS]

  more my ass on a loop my word so we [TS]

  actually did get some feedback about [TS]

  this and this individual rate wrote to [TS]

  say Bluetooth has two major ways to [TS]

  start playback in a car the good old [TS]

  simple Play command and a newer set of [TS]

  advanced browsing commands that allows [TS]

  the car to control the apps and navigate [TS]

  the media library on the phone with a [TS]

  play command the active media player is [TS]

  chosen by the phone and that from time [TS]

  to time gets a little buggy according to [TS]

  this person it is quite likely that this [TS]

  whole little subsystem was written by [TS]

  one person who may have then been moved [TS]

  somewhere else within Apple and who even [TS]

  knows but with the new browsing stuff [TS]

  then the car can decide how it wants to [TS]

  select you know like the active media [TS]

  player and in a playlist and an album [TS]

  and blah blah blah and so now you're [TS]

  letting the car make choices that it [TS]

  probably shouldn't be making and so that [TS]

  makes everything a little bit dodgy so [TS]

  this is this is surely in part apples [TS]

  fault but it is not by necessity [TS]

  entirely apples fault depending on the [TS]

  car depending on how its connecting etc [TS]

  etc etc where sponsor was week by [TS]

  aftershocks bone conduction headphones [TS]

  go to ATP aftershocks calm to learn more [TS]

  aftershokz headphones work by bone [TS]

  conduction so these small transducers [TS]

  rest in front of your ears not inside or [TS]

  around them like most headphones and [TS]

  they send mini vibrations through your [TS]

  cheek bones directly to your inner ear [TS]

  totally bypasses your ears and your [TS]

  eardrums so unlike every other kind of [TS]

  headphone bone conduction leave your [TS]

  ears completely open with nothing in [TS]

  them so for a lot of people like me we [TS]

  can't wear earbuds or in-ear monitors do [TS]

  they get physically uncomfortable in our [TS]

  ear canals aftershocks don't have this [TS]

  problem because nothing is sitting in [TS]

  your ear and because they don't cover [TS]

  your ear I find them far less sweaty [TS]

  than regular headphones in the summer [TS]

  time and they're even ip55 certified for [TS]

  water-resistant so you can you can run [TS]

  with them in the rain or you can just [TS]

  sweat all [TS]

  them all gross and it's totally fine I [TS]

  have found that I use these more than [TS]

  any other headphones in the summertime [TS]

  in fact I'm on vacation right now for a [TS]

  few weeks and I brought only these [TS]

  headphones for walking all other [TS]

  portable headphones I've left at home [TS]

  because I will I only want to use these [TS]

  here because I'm walking a lot and using [TS]

  these multiple hours a day I'm sweating [TS]

  a lot I'm sometime using them in the [TS]

  rain and it's totally fine and the great [TS]

  thing about it is that because nothing [TS]

  blocks your ears at all you hear the [TS]

  whole world around you so you can be [TS]

  walking or you know maybe cycling or [TS]

  running where you really want to hear [TS]

  the world around you for safety reasons [TS]

  or just to enjoy it and you need [TS]

  something that doesn't block your ear [TS]

  and that's what bone conduction is great [TS]

  at it's also great if you want to listen [TS]

  around the house you know if you want to [TS]

  like take a phone call because you know [TS]

  these are obviously a Bluetooth they can [TS]

  do phone calls if you want to take a [TS]

  phone call with them and maybe you want [TS]

  to hear if anything happens in your [TS]

  house and the process you can do that [TS]

  too and so if I'm honest the downsides [TS]

  here are there aren't the best for sound [TS]

  quality and they don't get very loud if [TS]

  you're in a very loud environment [TS]

  because they're so open to the world if [TS]

  you're in like a like a subway station [TS]

  these wouldn't be the pick for you but [TS]

  they're amazing for walking around [TS]

  outside for any kind of exercise use for [TS]

  around the house and anymore anything [TS]

  you want it you want to hear the world [TS]

  around you that's where the aftershocks [TS]

  are great and again they're so awesome [TS]

  for minimizing sweatiness too so the [TS]

  aftershocks tracks titanium that I use [TS]

  here retails for one hundred and thirty [TS]

  bucks [TS]

  listeners can get can get a pair for [TS]

  yourself for just $100 90-95 by visiting [TS]

  ATP aftershocks calm that is ATP [TS]

  aftershocks calm [TS]

  thanks to aftershocks for sponsoring our [TS]

  show [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  apparently SKT P is really a thing you [TS]

  were John I think you'd said you wanted [TS]

  it to be a thing in Marco you might have [TS]

  said the same all right it apparently [TS]

  it's a thing [TS]

  well the question is where does it go [TS]

  does it go after follow-up or does it go [TS]

  after topics or does it go in the after [TS]

  show where does it go no I think it goes [TS]

  after follow-up it sounds good I think [TS]

  that was right you always don't want to [TS]

  keep us away from our topics that we [TS]

  have long asked eighty people less [TS]

  likely to get topics you know what we [TS]

  could do John now down stick with me [TS]

  here I know this is wild we could we [TS]

  could have a little bit less follow-up [TS]

  we just did I just did do that [TS]

  are you sure we've been recording 45 [TS]

  minutes I didn't an item about talking [TS]

  about bit-depth for 20 minutes I was [TS]

  Margo that was in 20 minutes anyway [TS]

  Cain asks how do you guys sync your home [TS]

  directories between your Macs and I will [TS]

  go first I don't I use Dropbox for a [TS]

  handful of things but generally speaking [TS]

  it's all in the cloud man so who cares [TS]

  same yeah I don't like my home directory [TS]

  that's not a thing I mean I doubt many [TS]

  people do that I think there used to be [TS]

  a way to know I'm thinking of the server [TS]

  thing never mind anyway when people do [TS]

  is they just use cloud stuff whether [TS]

  it's an iCloud Drive or Dropbox and [TS]

  that's the stuff that syncs but they [TS]

  don't stick their entire home [TS]

  directories and it probably wouldn't be [TS]

  a good idea to sync your entire home [TS]

  directories because probably in the [TS]

  library directory in your home directory [TS]

  there's crap that is machine specific [TS]

  somewhere lurking in there so you [TS]

  probably don't want to do a naive full [TS]

  sync of your entire home directory and [TS]

  in general think is really hard to get [TS]

  right and don't try setup something [TS]

  yourself to do it because you'll just [TS]

  end up posing yourself and you'll be set [TS]

  fair enough this is a truly great [TS]

  question which outside of the obvious I [TS]

  don't have a really good answer to so [TS]

  the question is from let me get a full [TS]

  name if I can [TS]

  Peter cam Peter cam asks what's one [TS]

  piece of old tech that is still in use [TS]

  not hidden in an attic and I think he's [TS]

  really talking to you John due to [TS]

  superior qualities or retro joy so for [TS]

  example CRT TV old video game consoles [TS]

  iPods etc I will start again the obvious [TS]

  answer to this is that I have a [TS]

  turntable that I still use almost daily [TS]

  however I just received that turntable [TS]

  as a Christmas present and it was brand [TS]

  new at the time so it is it is old [TS]

  technology however it is a new device in [TS]

  terms of old technology that's still in [TS]

  use I I can't think of anything offhand [TS]

  I'm sure there's something I'm not [TS]

  debating that I have something barbaric [TS]

  and old that I still use but darned if I [TS]

  can think of what it would be [TS]

  so marking one first last time John [TS]

  anything old that's outside of your [TS]

  attic I was going to say my plasma TV [TS]

  but that's not superior quality anymore [TS]

  it's not retro joy so I guess that's [TS]

  probably just the example of something [TS]

  old [TS]

  my consoles are probably it I have a [TS]

  bunch of old console hooked up journey [TS]

  on ps4 helps me not have to use my ps3 [TS]

  for that but if want to play ego or [TS]

  Shadow of the Colossus I still have to [TS]

  use the ps3 so it is still connected to [TS]

  my TV there's gonna be a ps4 our port [TS]

  I shall of the Colossus leaving only eco [TS]

  like my ps3 is hanging on same thing [TS]

  with my wii which is basically used to [TS]

  play GameCube games most of the time [TS]

  almost all my old consoles are still [TS]

  hooked up it's kind of gonna be a shame [TS]

  when I eventually get a 4k TV because I [TS]

  doubt the 4k TV will have component [TS]

  video input to which I can connect my [TS]

  Gamecube so I have to buy some kind of [TS]

  adapter and then I probably go ahead and [TS]

  don't even bother right same thing with [TS]

  the Wii I have we got component video [TS]

  going into my TV I don't have to buy an [TS]

  adapter for that as well but for now [TS]

  yeah I got a lot of old consoles like [TS]

  them you know I should point out that a [TS]

  mark Marco is probably going to say the [TS]

  same thing I I forgot about which is I [TS]

  do have a mechanical watch that is also [TS]

  not terribly old but I do like using it [TS]

  when I'm dressing up for something [TS]

  special [TS]

  so now that I've stolen your Thunder [TS]

  Marco what about you honestly that was [TS]

  that was what I was thinking of as like [TS]

  the the best thing I could say here most [TS]

  of the things that I use are you know [TS]

  like I the things I thought I use that [TS]

  are actually like quote old and tech [TS]

  terms are not old enough to be [TS]

  interesting so like I'll have like you [TS]

  know like an old speaker ramp that you [TS]

  know for my desk or something but that's [TS]

  like you know old a desk an old desktop [TS]

  computer speaker ramp being like six [TS]

  years old you know or like for a while I [TS]

  was using a my first fujitsu scansnap [TS]

  scanner which I got about nine years ago [TS]

  but I actually replaced that about last [TS]

  year because it I was tired of replacing [TS]

  the rollers and the new ones were [TS]

  superfast and so I just got a new one [TS]

  yeah for me I think the best answer here [TS]

  is mechanical watches it's it's not a [TS]

  very interesting answer and it's not a [TS]

  new answer for people who have heard me [TS]

  talk ever so that's why I kind of wanted [TS]

  I Warnock was been better but I wasn't [TS]

  able to I do have mechanical watches [TS]

  that are somewhat old my oldest one is [TS]

  from 1968 so that's fairly old so I [TS]

  guess that counts [TS]

  awesome and that's the end of a sketchy [TS]

  fee for this week topics Johnny really [TS]

  gonna let me get away with this so it's [TS]

  so fast it's a really quick one it's a [TS]

  really quick one that's not the question [TS]

  how many questions that we do I just did [TS]

  three because that's how many I could [TS]

  put before I ran out of time before the [TS]

  show so Chris Johnson thank you Chris [TS]

  writes in blah blah destiny - blah blah [TS]

  blah try again [TS]

  which destiny to class and subclass will [TS]

  you start with have a nsobject and let's [TS]

  see some beautiful set I like that one [TS]

  they dropped the Enna's prefix man yeah [TS]

  so I'm going to do I was a warlock main [TS]

  in destiny one [TS]

  I barely I had to tighten that my son [TS]

  played and a hunter that I barely played [TS]

  I did level the Titan in hunter up so [TS]

  they will be ported over that's [TS]

  twenty-two along with my warlock but I'm [TS]

  gonna be world like me and destiny too [TS]

  and I'm probably gonna start with Don [TS]

  blade because it's the new one was any [TS]

  of that English because it didn't sound [TS]

  like it [TS]

  people know sort of asked ATP a rousing [TS]

  success thing and I had to rush to get [TS]

  the things in there and between trying [TS]

  to get my kids and my dog settle down [TS]

  British so feel free to I'm pulling from [TS]

  that same she'd feel free to pull your [TS]

  own questions in there and throw them in [TS]

  the little section you know the right [TS]

  answer which will never work but the [TS]

  rightest answer is for each of us to [TS]

  pull our favorite question each week but [TS]

  I guarantee Marco will forget and or not [TS]

  care and I give myself one chance in [TS]

  three eventually remembering pull [TS]

  questions and throw them in there but [TS]

  you know maybe we wouldn't have the [TS]

  section at all if I hadn't remembered it [TS]

  so that's true oh where would we be [TS]

  without you John [TS]

  and speaking of John tell us about this [TS]

  kerfuffle with Google and this diversity [TS]

  memo which I'm not sure is even the [TS]

  right way to describe it yeah the salton [TS]

  kind of news by now but we haven't [TS]

  recorded in a long time and [TS]

  there in the world of politics and [TS]

  discrimination there is newer news but [TS]

  it is not really tech related but this [TS]

  certainly is tech related it's a story [TS]

  that everybody probably knows by now the [TS]

  Google employee wrote I don't know why [TS]

  they call it a memo I guess the old [TS]

  parlance wrote a big thing sort of [TS]

  talking to Google internally saying [TS]

  we're all Googlers here here's what I [TS]

  think about what the company is doing [TS]

  and here's my opinion on it so on and so [TS]

  forth and it caused a big stink we will [TS]

  put a link to the document in the show [TS]

  notes on the off chance that you haven't [TS]

  already read it it's not that long but [TS]

  like oh it's ten pages and the grand [TS]

  scheme of things it's not that long [TS]

  because we don't pay doesn't the web you [TS]

  just scroll and also what we'll have in [TS]

  the show notes are what I think are some [TS]

  of the best responses to the Google [TS]

  thing so anyway at the impact of the [TS]

  story here being a to summarize in chief [TS]

  and Casey doing this the upshot is that [TS]

  the person who wrote this was fired [TS]

  because it contained I forget what the [TS]

  phrasing was but it contains a bunch of [TS]

  ideas and opinions that are counter to [TS]

  the way Google operates and then people [TS]

  are angry that the person got fired and [TS]

  people argued on the internet about and [TS]

  so on and so forth again this is a well [TS]

  covered story and I feel like if you [TS]

  don't know we're talking about or don't [TS]

  or have only read one or two things [TS]

  about just read you know the five links [TS]

  that we put in there feel like you will [TS]

  have covered the range of what people [TS]

  how people react to it but on this show [TS]

  what I wanted to talk about you guys can [TS]

  feel free to take whatever angle you [TS]

  want on this thing is the idea that [TS]

  people dismissed the memo that people [TS]

  like read it and where we just didn't [TS]

  didn't address it at all didn't take it [TS]

  seriously they just dismissed it out of [TS]

  hand and a lot of people were angry [TS]

  about that like why won't you engage [TS]

  with this why won't you talk about the [TS]

  ideas lots of yelling about like someone [TS]

  said something bad about it but you [TS]

  didn't even talk about any of the points [TS]

  that are in the memo like why are you [TS]

  being so dismissive and I understand [TS]

  where people are coming from with that [TS]

  but I think there is an explanation and [TS]

  it's a frustrating explanation but it's [TS]

  something you know you encounter again [TS]

  and again nothing when I read that memo [TS]

  nothing in it was new because I had seen [TS]

  every idea put forward to the memo many [TS]

  many times before because there weren't [TS]

  a lot of new I don't want any new ideas [TS]

  in there everything in there is [TS]

  something that someone else has said in [TS]

  the very similar form many many many [TS]

  many many times in the past and if you [TS]

  enter any field whatever it is whether [TS]

  it's woodworking programming diversity [TS]

  whatever it is and you lay out all your [TS]

  opinions but you are not an expert in [TS]

  the field chance especially if you say [TS]

  something controversial or you're [TS]

  addressing some point that is a point of [TS]

  contention chances are very good that [TS]

  the people who have been arguing about [TS]

  the same topic and who have studied this [TS]

  topic and you know we're just like our [TS]

  well versed in this topic chances are [TS]

  very good that they've heard everything [TS]

  you're going to say before and they've [TS]

  argued about it amongst themselves for [TS]

  years and years and years and so when [TS]

  you come out with this thing and they [TS]

  roll their eyes and dismiss you it's [TS]

  because to them it's like the nine [TS]

  hundred times someone is saying exact [TS]

  same things and they've already been [TS]

  discussed but from the outside it's like [TS]

  how why are you not addressing my points [TS]

  I feel like I have important things to [TS]

  say here and how can like it's how can [TS]

  you just dismiss me it's not a valid [TS]

  argument obviously I'm you know maybe [TS]

  I'm writing you're just afraid to [TS]

  address my block this is gonna happen no [TS]

  matter what the topic is [TS]

  and I mean and well in some ways you [TS]

  have to recognize like where you are on [TS]

  the in the range of knowledge about this [TS]

  topic am I do I have a PhD in this topic [TS]

  have I studied this topic for 50 years [TS]

  and a well-versed in all the literature [TS]

  and like or am I just somebody who [TS]

  thought about this for the past year or [TS]

  two and has some ideas like you're never [TS]

  you know and maybe he said they [TS]

  shouldn't dismiss me and what they [TS]

  should do is if someone is [TS]

  novice and says something that has been [TS]

  said before then please tell me point by [TS]

  laborious point bring me up to speed on [TS]

  the state of the art in this area of [TS]

  study that's not a reasonable request [TS]

  because then it's like everybody who [TS]

  stumbles into a math forum and says I [TS]

  just think I've you know what about this [TS]

  and have you guys ever thought of that [TS]

  they gotta teach you all the math you [TS]

  need to know to get but the point you [TS]

  realize the thing that you're saying has [TS]

  been discussed many times before and [TS]

  like either proven or disproven or [TS]

  you're the different you know like it's [TS]

  that's not a valid position I know a [TS]

  little bit about something and I have an [TS]

  opinion and here's this thing and [TS]

  they're like oh well we've seen people [TS]

  say that thing a million times we've [TS]

  already discussed it amongst ourselves [TS]

  and we already know what everyone else [TS]

  in the field thinks about this we don't [TS]

  have time to bring you up to speed on [TS]

  the this entire field of study and that [TS]

  feels like you're being dismissed and so [TS]

  I understand why people are angry the [TS]

  guy who wrote it's angry about being [TS]

  dismissed people who sympathize with [TS]

  what is in the thing are angry that that [TS]

  this thing is dismissed they feel like [TS]

  you know you know whatever it's being [TS]

  silenced no one's taking him seriously [TS]

  or whatever now first of all that's like [TS]

  that's an initial reaction but second [TS]

  all these links in the show notes sure [TS]

  that's not true that some some poor [TS]

  people went there and just went point by [TS]

  laborious point and tried mightily to [TS]

  explain and these aren't even experts in [TS]

  the field for the most part these are [TS]

  just people who didn't happen to know a [TS]

  little bit more or have a little bit of [TS]

  clearer you know train of thinking about [TS]

  this or really just even if they have no [TS]

  expertise in the field but have been [TS]

  around the block a few times and ever [TS]

  argued on the internet a few times thing [TS]

  and say listen I don't even know [TS]

  anything about this subject but I can [TS]

  tell you memo writer that you have no [TS]

  idea what you're doing [TS]

  like you know that even without knowing [TS]

  anything about this topic I can see that [TS]

  your points don't connect and you're [TS]

  doing a bad job arguing this and again [TS]

  if you if you argued on Usenet in the [TS]

  90s if you argued in person in you know [TS]

  college campuses in the 80s and 70s and [TS]

  60s like you know the person who wrote [TS]

  this memo you know they're thinking you [TS]

  know what they're saying you you [TS]

  recognize their their enthusiasm and [TS]

  fervor and like just this is the thing [TS]

  about getting old like everything slows [TS]

  down and you [TS]

  goes bad and your eyes get worse and [TS]

  just all sorts of bad things happen but [TS]

  there's something to that wisdom thing [TS]

  hey I mean that wisdom maybe it's just [TS]

  experience like that's why and all sorts [TS]

  of sci-fi things when there's a really [TS]

  old creature like they're always just [TS]

  like a like you've seen it all right and [TS]

  I know that's like the worst thing it's [TS]

  like you know that itself is a logical [TS]

  fallacy like a you know appeal to [TS]

  Authority or you should trust me because [TS]

  I know a lot about this topic but but [TS]

  it's not what it is it's more like just [TS]

  exhaustion like if pressed if the fate [TS]

  of the universe depended on it [TS]

  experts in the field could take this [TS]

  person into a room and over the course [TS]

  of the next 20 years educate them to the [TS]

  point where they understand what is [TS]

  wrong with this memo right and I feel [TS]

  like that should be the goal of a lot of [TS]

  you know if you trust that this is the [TS]

  case and I'm not just like blowing smoke [TS]

  but that the goal should be like if you [TS]

  if you read this memo and you think that [TS]

  there are some good solid points in [TS]

  there your goal should be to learn more [TS]

  about it heal until you get on the same [TS]

  page with everyone else who sees this [TS]

  for what it is or learn so much about it [TS]

  that you actually reveal the real truth [TS]

  of it that nobody knows right but I can [TS]

  tell you this memo is not the real truth [TS]

  but the nobody knows because this memo [TS]

  are the same tired ideas that have been [TS]

  discussed again and again and again by [TS]

  people in every single field related to [TS]

  this all right [TS]

  and that like again this this is the [TS]

  meta point and people like they don't [TS]

  want to hear it and there's no way to [TS]

  convince them of it or not I'm not [TS]

  really here to convince people that this [TS]

  is the case but like that's why people [TS]

  get angry about that's why it feels [TS]

  frustrating and I want I'm trying to [TS]

  stay working the topic itself because I [TS]

  want people to understand this is gonna [TS]

  be true when you come in and tell people [TS]

  about a particular kind of glue putting [TS]

  together [TS]

  remote control boats and the remote [TS]

  control bolt builders have discussions [TS]

  about this kind of glue 50 years ago and [TS]

  they just roll their eyes and be like [TS]

  look I know it seems like that kind of [TS]

  glue is the kind of glue you want to use [TS]

  I know you have a lot of information [TS]

  that you think supports your idea that [TS]

  kind of loses the trust me we've been [TS]

  debating this glue for 50 years and 25 [TS]

  years ago we all came to this conclusion [TS]

  and we revisit this topic room time [TS]

  decided to see if things have changed [TS]

  but they haven't and you're wrong and we [TS]

  don't have time to explain to you [TS]

  laborious and [TS]

  again glue for model boats is much [TS]

  simpler than this topic right so that's [TS]

  that's my reaction as a tired old person [TS]

  who is beaten down by even worse things [TS]

  happening and in the world right that I [TS]

  see this I see the young person who is [TS]

  writing it I know where that person is [TS]

  coming from I know that person it and [TS]

  I've seen you know these exact arguments [TS]

  on these exact specific topics and it is [TS]

  depressing to have to have this argument [TS]

  again it's depressing this these tired [TS]

  ideas get any kind of traction and yet [TS]

  people go out of their way to do the [TS]

  hard work to explain to this person and [TS]

  to anybody who reads this something I [TS]

  like to explain to the world like you [TS]

  know isn't that your job to educate me [TS]

  about but not really but we're gonna do [TS]

  it anyway because we know it's you know [TS]

  it's it's what we have to do something [TS]

  we can't just let us stand as it is so [TS]

  many many people did you know tried to [TS]

  explain what's wrong with this and I'm [TS]

  not going to try to explain it here [TS]

  because I feel like the problem is topic [TS]

  a lot of times on the show is any kind [TS]

  of pockets like this is I think what I [TS]

  described in the hypercritical days as [TS]

  having a slow-motion argument with the [TS]

  internet one-sided slow-motion argument [TS]

  where you'll say a bunch of stuff but [TS]

  there's no one on the show who'd [TS]

  actually is there disagree with you so [TS]

  you can actually have a debate so you [TS]

  have to debate the hypothetical person [TS]

  who's out there and then you put the [TS]

  podcast out into the world man you wait [TS]

  a week and a bunch of people reply and [TS]

  say that's not what I think at all [TS]

  actually I think X Y Z and then you [TS]

  debate those people's feedback but then [TS]

  you but then what about people who don't [TS]

  care about a topic anymore it's just [TS]

  it's impossible to have a slow-motion [TS]

  debate with it with a hypothetical [TS]

  person so that's why I'm trying to take [TS]

  this meta and also because like I said I [TS]

  think there's some really good articles [TS]

  about this and to be clear this this [TS]

  manifesto is totally bogus [TS]

  the the ideas and by the unit are not [TS]

  the right ideas they are just you know [TS]

  it's explicable by all of the the sort [TS]

  of they're speckled by the experiences [TS]

  and the biases that the person who wrote [TS]

  it is bound to have had and so I think [TS]

  this is a learning opportunity for [TS]

  everybody involved why did he get fired [TS]

  do you think you should have been fired [TS]

  that's the that's the controversial [TS]

  thing yeah I don't see how you can't [TS]

  fire him because how can you have an [TS]

  employee in your company [TS]

  thinks women on average are genetically [TS]

  less capable than men to do the job like [TS]

  how can you have that person doing [TS]

  performance reviews or leading a team of [TS]

  people like how can you have that like [TS]

  if that's in people's secret heart so [TS]

  you don't know about it fine but if [TS]

  someone comes out and says this is what [TS]

  I believe you can't have that person [TS]

  doing performance you can just have a [TS]

  segregated company and then segregate by [TS]

  everybody's biases right and never mind [TS]

  that you know these are all at-will [TS]

  employees they can be fired pretty much [TS]

  every reason any reason and you know [TS]

  misogyny is not a protected class like [TS]

  it's an idea like yeah like this is [TS]

  guess what if you you uh call your boss [TS]

  a jerk every day and give him the finger [TS]

  you're also gonna get fired because [TS]

  people who call the her boss a jerk and [TS]

  give them the finger are not a protected [TS]

  class like there are so many things you [TS]

  can get fired do to get fired this of [TS]

  all the things at least is like pretty [TS]

  high-minded in terms of things you're [TS]

  getting fired for believe me you can get [TS]

  fired for way stupider stuff because [TS]

  that's the way employment works and so [TS]

  but yeah like this yeah you have to [TS]

  fight in fact it's it probably should [TS]

  have been fired faster but I'm sure you [TS]

  got to go through all the legal things [TS]

  for whatever so anyway I think I'm I'm [TS]

  starting to get into the realm of we're [TS]

  gonna start having a slow-motion [TS]

  argument but the internet I don't want [TS]

  to do that what do you two have to say [TS]

  about this I have very little to add [TS]

  because you just did a really good job [TS]

  of covering it and I also don't want to [TS]

  go into the slow-motion argument with [TS]

  the internet the common people's grasp [TS]

  on what free speech protects them from [TS]

  is about as good as their grasp on fair [TS]

  use and copyright which is not that good [TS]

  no copy intended no copyright intended [TS]

  Marco so yeah I would before making an [TS]

  argument about free speech [TS]

  I learned investigate with some basic [TS]

  research what free speech actually gets [TS]

  you and what is actually an assurance of [TS]

  what it actually means and what it [TS]

  doesn't mean and yeah John I think coda [TS]

  very well I I I have to admit I did not [TS]

  fully read James's memo or whatever it [TS]

  was manifesto whatever it was you know [TS]

  life is short and I could tell pretty [TS]

  pretty soon into it this was not going [TS]

  to be worth the [TS]

  I'm been reading it so I didn't I [TS]

  decided to do anything else with my time [TS]

  just had to read this honestly [TS]

  rearend openings memo on what he thinks [TS]

  about people so I decided not to yeah [TS]

  same here he provided a summary at the [TS]

  top have Elly called it a tldr because [TS]

  he's in Milano [TS]

  but yeah the summon summer yet was hot [TS]

  like you don't have to read the temp [TS]

  ages reading the five six point summary [TS]

  or whatever it's a it is a fit mean he [TS]

  wrote the summary himself it is a fair [TS]

  encapsulation of the points made and the [TS]

  things you could look at only the [TS]

  summary and see [TS]

  yep no I've seen this idiot before yep I [TS]

  understand where he's coming from yeah [TS]

  no III I got a bet that far then I was [TS]

  like yeah this is and then once I [TS]

  thought that was the memo and then once [TS]

  I saw that was simply the summarize like [TS]

  oh my god close tab I would also say [TS]

  that I think it's worth it's worth [TS]

  Google doing some introspection here [TS]

  about their own culture and and about [TS]

  what is it about Google's culture that [TS]

  would hire somebody who holds these [TS]

  ideas that would foster someone's [TS]

  intellectual development who would hold [TS]

  his ideas and that would that would make [TS]

  somebody think that it would be a good [TS]

  idea and would not get them fired too [TS]

  idea and would not get them fired too [TS]

  actually write this and circulate this [TS]

  within the company like that reveals I [TS]

  think cultural problems in that company [TS]

  which should be a surprise to nobody but [TS]

  some good aspects of culture to because [TS]

  that the fact that he felt like he could [TS]

  say this shows that they have a culture [TS]

  where people feel like they can express [TS]

  themselves now again like a culture [TS]

  where you can express yourselves doesn't [TS]

  mean you could say you know what I think [TS]

  we should eat babies and be surprised [TS]

  about people like gasp right here let's [TS]

  give them back to the baby eating right [TS]

  it's good to have an open culture but [TS]

  you also have to be aware of you know [TS]

  what people might think of what you say [TS]

  right and a lot of companies people [TS]

  would be afraid to say anything remotely [TS]

  about controversial but like at any HR [TS]

  policy like you know the HR policy is [TS]

  like for example imagine apple gonna the [TS]

  Apple Park thing like oh people aren't [TS]

  gonna have as many offices right if [TS]

  Apple had a culture where everybody was [TS]

  terrified to make any kind of complaint [TS]

  about her I kind of wish we still had [TS]

  offices I don't want to be an open [TS]

  office space right that would be a bad [TS]

  company culture you want to have a [TS]

  company culture where if people are [TS]

  super pissed about not having an office [TS]

  they feel like they can say hey I don't [TS]

  want to lose my office Apple I don't [TS]

  like the new Apple Park and complain [TS]

  right cuz that and just being a general [TS]

  adult in the world you could understand [TS]

  if you do it in a constructive way this [TS]

  is a a reasonable avenue of feedback [TS]

  within the company and a good company [TS]

  culture encourages people to do that [TS]

  because you don't want them to be [TS]

  secretly hating you and then quitting [TS]

  like you want you want to hear what the [TS]

  employees have to say but if their [TS]

  complaint is I don't want to work next [TS]

  to a woman you should at least be aware [TS]

  enough to know if you say that they're [TS]

  gonna get rid of you because you can't [TS]

  have an employee like that it's like how [TS]

  is that any different from offices if [TS]

  you can't see the difference like start [TS]

  their finger what's different about [TS]

  saying I prefer offices to cubicles [TS]

  versus I can't be next to a woman when I [TS]

  work like figure it out like work on it [TS]

  like I feel you know those are my first [TS]

  and only comments about this which was [TS]

  snarky granted but you know I'm allowed [TS]

  some snark on Twitter was like the the [TS]

  irony of someone at Google writing this [TS]

  memo who so clearly has not even done [TS]

  the most cursory google search on the [TS]

  topic [TS]

  look at all these things he's citing we [TS]

  were like no I mean actually you know [TS]

  actually learning about the topic his [TS]

  Google's right there you can Google [TS]

  yourself every one of these points and [TS]

  find you know everything about them and [TS]

  why they're BS like everywhere instead [TS]

  the only thing he googled for was you [TS]

  know cherry picked things that he thinks [TS]

  supports his ideas and that he can [TS]

  string together into this completely [TS]

  broken chain of logic in the other [TS]

  anyway I don't know you can read the [TS]

  links to I realize that but like but [TS]

  it's right there like no time it hasn't [TS]

  been easier for you to educate yourself [TS]

  about this topic without having to be [TS]

  led by the nose by people more versed in [TS]

  the field like everything's right there [TS]

  the person works for Google and just you [TS]

  know that that just blew my mind that [TS]

  you know sort of the the in curiosity [TS]

  and the being content and you know as [TS]

  the economists response the links we'll [TS]

  put in there that the motivated [TS]

  reasoning like that no amount of access [TS]

  to the world's information can avoid [TS]

  that yeah the thing that struck me about [TS]

  this was the little bit of feedback we [TS]

  got about it which was a couple of [TS]

  people saying please don't talk about [TS]

  this but here's some anonymous feedback [TS]

  about why I think this guy was on the [TS]

  money this was amazing to me this was [TS]

  like we actually got beautiful pieces of [TS]

  feedback about from people who were [TS]

  basically yelling at us in support of [TS]

  this James whole before we ever talked [TS]

  about it right right it just happened [TS]

  and they knew in the future there would [TS]

  be an episode of ATP recorded and people [TS]

  said I know you're gonna want to talk [TS]

  about this but don't well we did sorry [TS]

  there's you don't talk about this but [TS]

  here's what I think and and you know if [TS]

  anyone thinks otherwise that's just that [TS]

  that's them silencing us yadda yadda [TS]

  yadda blah blah blah it was it was more [TS]

  than what the thing was if it was just [TS]

  one individual okay fine but this [TS]

  happened two or three times and it was [TS]

  the same thing both times please guys [TS]

  don't talk about this but if you do you [TS]

  should consider the following my example [TS]

  of like the difference between I like [TS]

  office instead of cubes versus I can't [TS]

  work next to a woman neither one of [TS]

  those things in the memo I'm giving [TS]

  hypothetical examples to understand [TS]

  different classes of things that you [TS]

  might want feedback yeah but [TS]

  actually getting back to Marco's point [TS]

  like I think I think the fact this [TS]

  person felt free to say this is a good [TS]

  reflection on Google's culture of [TS]

  letting people feel like they are free [TS]

  to give feedback the fact that this [TS]

  particular you know that are the to have [TS]

  open discussions the content of this [TS]

  shows it doesn't reflect poorly on [TS]

  Google other than their hiring practices [TS]

  or not being aware that this is this is [TS]

  happening and and you know like this is [TS]

  on the person who wrote the thing not so [TS]

  much in Google if you want to place [TS]

  blame on it's not the culture that let [TS]

  him post the memo because that is more [TS]

  of just sort of like lack of [TS]

  self-awareness you know not [TS]

  understanding that other people exist in [TS]

  the world and how they might react to [TS]

  what you had to say right but this is [TS]

  true of a lot of tech companies that you [TS]

  know the if the interview is all coding [TS]

  on a whiteboard and you know solving [TS]

  brain teasers and making sure you had a [TS]

  good education and making sure you are [TS]

  recently personable and polite and then [TS]

  most critically making sure that the [TS]

  people who you interview with say oh [TS]

  yeah I could work with this person yeah [TS]

  seems like a person because you'll [TS]

  people will say oh I could work in this [TS]

  person he's just like me yeah I'm I am a [TS]

  dude who was a CS major who likes video [TS]

  games and blah blah yeah not like if [TS]

  that's all there is in your interview is [TS]

  technical stuff and and brain teasers [TS]

  and education and work history and do [TS]

  you feel like you could work with this [TS]

  person it's very easy to get into you [TS]

  know - speaking of an echo chamber which [TS]

  in all other complaints this thing is [TS]

  very easy to get into a situation where [TS]

  people hire other people that they're [TS]

  comfortable with and so you may never [TS]

  dig deeper to say oh and by the way [TS]

  again this is not in the memo this is my [TS]

  silly example that's supposed to make [TS]

  you you know realize anyway if you have [TS]

  any problem working on a team with a [TS]

  woman [TS]

  maybe you can't ask that legally I don't [TS]

  even know like there's all sorts of [TS]

  weird things about hiring what you can [TS]

  and can't ask but figuring that out like [TS]

  if the person says oh I would never work [TS]

  on a team with the woman don't hire that [TS]

  person right don't hire that person and [TS]

  if you never figure out that that's an [TS]

  again that's not that's not what this [TS]

  person said I'm trying to give it a [TS]

  extreme example I know people get [TS]

  confused by that like it's a [TS]

  hypothetical extreme example right if [TS]

  you're not sort and figuring that out if [TS]

  you [TS]

  have an interview process that weeds [TS]

  that out you'll never have a chance of [TS]

  waking up to much more subtle things [TS]

  which is like maybe this person has some [TS]

  slightly less well examined ideas about [TS]

  gender and diversity and like I don't [TS]

  think this person is super terrible I [TS]

  heard they were vaguely involved in [TS]

  gamergate but who knows I'm the headman [TS]

  following this but anyway I think the [TS]

  ideas in this memo or ideas that a lot [TS]

  of smart white dudes basically who have [TS]

  never faced any sort of oppression based [TS]

  on their gender or a race end up having [TS]

  not because they're bad people or [TS]

  they're evil or whatever but it's like [TS]

  again there's a reason all these ideas [TS]

  have come up before it is not it's not a [TS]

  logical conclusion but it's like you [TS]

  find yourself going down these alleys [TS]

  you find yourself having these thoughts [TS]

  you find yourself coming to these [TS]

  conclusions and especially if you have a [TS]

  slightly rebellious bent there is [TS]

  something for you to rebel against which [TS]

  is all these this diversity ideas and [TS]

  like just there's a reason it's common I [TS]

  don't I don't think these people this [TS]

  person is you know an aberration or a [TS]

  terrible person it's just they're they [TS]

  have they have some things to learn they [TS]

  have some living to do they have some [TS]

  experience to gain and it you are able [TS]

  to get that experience and live that [TS]

  life and learn and change because most [TS]

  people who are on the other side of this [TS]

  started out somewhere more like this [TS]

  memo writer and changed and learn things [TS]

  like that they're not born like oh I'm a [TS]

  perfect angel from the beginning and I [TS]

  know everything and I don't have any [TS]

  prejudices and biases no especially if [TS]

  they're they are simply have similar [TS]

  backgrounds to this person [TS]

  they had to walk that same road and [TS]

  figure things out and stick their foot [TS]

  in the mouth and do stupid stuff and [TS]

  learn things the hard way right no we're [TS]

  not super enlightened wonderful we know [TS]

  everything in the beginning like my hope [TS]

  for this person is that he grows and [TS]

  evolves and you know comes you know the [TS]

  people mean to say that he grows up but [TS]

  like it's part it's not he's an organ [TS]

  adult but you know just you don't stop [TS]

  growing up when you become quote/unquote [TS]

  an adult you you keep growing up [TS]

  throughout your whole life hopefully and [TS]

  that's that's my hope for this person [TS]

  we are sponsored this week by fracture [TS]

  who prints your photos in vivid color on [TS]

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  again get those photos printed and hang [TS]

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  amazing gifts they had these awesome [TS]

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  upload your photo and pick your size it [TS]

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  there's no frame needed you know you'd [TS]

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  and we have fractures all over our house [TS]

  in fact right now we're on vacation I [TS]

  kind of miss the fractures and think we [TS]

  should order a few more for here that [TS]

  this place could really use it I think [TS]

  that's what we're gonna do after after [TS]

  this week podcast I'm gonna go order [TS]

  some fractures because we need some [TS]

  stuff on the walls here that's that's [TS]

  more us so really make your moments [TS]

  visible in your home it's really [TS]

  wonderful and again they make wonderful [TS]

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  your first order visit fracture me calm [TS]

  slash podcast that lists a podcast there [TS]

  and you will tell them which one you [TS]

  heard from tell them ATP because we're [TS]

  the best let's be honest here it helps [TS]

  support the show and tells them that you [TS]

  came from here so fracture me.com slash [TS]

  podcast don't forget to pick ATP in the [TS]

  survey there and once again thank you [TS]

  very much to fracture for sponsoring our [TS]

  show [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  Apple apparently has said their [TS]

  budgeting a billion dollars that's B 1 [TS]

  billion for original TV shows and movies [TS]

  because apparently that's the thing we [TS]

  need so I'm not sure what to make of [TS]

  this like in and of itself I have no [TS]

  issues with Apple trying to get into the [TS]

  content busy business excuse me but it's [TS]

  so far they have not shown us that [TS]

  they're terribly good at doing these [TS]

  sort of things so I don't know Marco [TS]

  what do you think about this so with the [TS]

  actual budget and like how it compares [TS]

  to other services and everything people [TS]

  have commentary on whether this is [TS]

  enough money whether it's a lot whether [TS]

  it's a little I don't know I don't know [TS]

  enough about the business of TV and [TS]

  movie production to even know what this [TS]

  buys you all I do know is that so far [TS]

  apple's original content for video which [TS]

  for some reason appears on Apple music [TS]

  is bizarre at best and mostly pretty bad [TS]

  whatever has caused them to produce what [TS]

  they've produced so far I think is the [TS]

  same thing that caused them to do the [TS]

  whole like you know u2 finger-touch [TS]

  thing and then shoving songs of [TS]

  innocence into everyone's libraries and [TS]

  you know it's like they seem to have [TS]

  this like most of what they make pretty [TS]

  cool and is pretty well considered and [TS]

  then there's like the certain like blind [TS]

  spot that they get around certain types [TS]

  of content or celebrity things which [TS]

  which everything they make seems to be [TS]

  profoundly uncool and just fall on its [TS]

  face a lot of the various like you know [TS]

  celebrity tie-ins they've done much of [TS]

  the efforts they've tried to do around [TS]

  Apple music sometimes like the weird [TS]

  intro videos to the conference's stuff [TS]

  like that like a lot of the stuff just [TS]

  just seems profoundly uncool and just [TS]

  flops certainly I think Planet of the [TS]

  apps' qualifies big-time for that list [TS]

  and I suspect the carpool karaoke [TS]

  version they're doing I haven't seen it [TS]

  the early impressions of it are [TS]

  similarly not very positive [TS]

  so I whatever is is causing these things [TS]

  to be greenlit and to then be terrible [TS]

  I hope they figure [TS]

  out and fix that for Apple to become a [TS]

  company that represents bad content I [TS]

  think that hurts the whole brand so it's [TS]

  a big risk they're taking here and so [TS]

  far it seems like it's not paying off at [TS]

  all so far it seems like it's actually [TS]

  harming them if they do it right it [TS]

  could be great they could be you know [TS]

  they could produce things as good as [TS]

  what Netflix and Amazon on HBO are [TS]

  making like they could make great [TS]

  original content but they've made such a [TS]

  bad original content so far that it's [TS]

  it's just kind of hard to see how they [TS]

  get from here to there I think the last [TS]

  time we talked about this I made the [TS]

  same point because I found it occurring [TS]

  to me again I'm like oh I think I talked [TS]

  about that right but like if you if you [TS]

  fund content you shouldn't like other [TS]

  than some vague sort of overarching [TS]

  theme like Disney in general makes kind [TS]

  of family-friendly stuff you shouldn't [TS]

  be influencing the things that you make [TS]

  so everything that Apple makes doesn't [TS]

  have to be an appellate thing obviously [TS]

  planet of the apps is super Apple II [TS]

  carpool karaoke not really aptly so [TS]

  that's that's an okay one but you know [TS]

  HBO makes all sorts of shows make [TS]

  Western sci-fi fantasy drama like just [TS]

  comedies stand-up comedy specials [TS]

  documentaries like you know insofar as [TS]

  there is an HBO brand the brand is good [TS]

  television for adults right Disney is [TS]

  like family-friendly stuff Marvel is you [TS]

  know it's got the superhero movies like [TS]

  start the Star Wars like just like there [TS]

  there are overarching brands for things [TS]

  but in general you don't want Apple to [TS]

  make like Apple stuff and that that is [TS]

  something they have to get out from [TS]

  under because almost everything Apple [TS]

  does is an Apple thing and if you're [TS]

  making content you have to basically [TS]

  just be the money people here's the big [TS]

  bucket of money then get a bunch of [TS]

  people who know how to find talent and [TS]

  you know develop the shows and that's [TS]

  what they're doing they hired a bunch of [TS]

  people who had previously done this same [TS]

  job for for other people like that hard [TS]

  the guy from Sony television or [TS]

  something is but had a bunch of things [TS]

  under his belt and they hurt somebody [TS]

  else like it's it's a different kind of [TS]

  business and it's not an easy business [TS]

  because it's like how you know how do I [TS]

  know what's the next Breaking Bad and [TS]

  what's the next planet of the apps like [TS]

  can I tell the other ministry in those [TS]

  two when they're being pitched to me [TS]

  right if I get a pitch for the next [TS]

  Breaking Bad can I actually develop it [TS]

  give them the right amount of money and [TS]

  get the right talent involved like you [TS]

  know it this was said about the phone [TS]

  business apples not just going to walk [TS]

  in the entertainment business is a [TS]

  similarly difficult problem but it's [TS]

  much farther from Apple's wheelhouse and [TS]

  Apple can't use all its old tricks of [TS]

  we're gonna build every show like we do [TS]

  an Apple product nope nope the shows [TS]

  can't be in Apple products some shows [TS]

  have to be the opposite of an Apple [TS]

  product they have to be you know you [TS]

  know intense and involve sex and [TS]

  violence or they have to be goofy [TS]

  comedies you know or like things that [TS]

  just don't fit in the Apple way and [TS]

  again you can have a brand you can be a [TS]

  you know like Disney or like Pixar and [TS]

  have a brand and and put everything [TS]

  under that umbrella but its competitors [TS]

  brands are in general content that [TS]

  wouldn't air network television [TS]

  expensive television made for adults so [TS]

  this that's kind of what Amazon and [TS]

  Netflix and HBO have been doing they're [TS]

  all spending more money on it than Apple [TS]

  still but just fine like I was just [TS]

  getting started you know Netflix is [TS]

  budget is 7 billion compared to apples [TS]

  budget of 1 billion I think that's fine [TS]

  Apple should not be putting 7 billion [TS]

  towards something it doesn't know how to [TS]

  do yet right so you know figure out how [TS]

  to do it Amazon's 4.5 billion is mostly [TS]

  their estimates from this article will [TS]

  link in the show notes HBO is 2 billion [TS]

  H was got a lot of bang for its buck [TS]

  because they've they apparently really [TS]

  know how to develop shows they don't [TS]

  make a lot of shows but the ones they [TS]

  make a pretty good hit ratio and their [TS]

  hits are really big hits I'm doing it [TS]

  for quite some time like they developed [TS]

  a skill over a very long time yeah and [TS]

  and you know it's a set it's you know [TS]

  it's people it's it's sets different [TS]

  people who know different people who [TS]

  know how to get things develop know what [TS]

  to buy what not to buy know how to make [TS]

  sure that the things produced in the [TS]

  same way that Apple knows how to like oh [TS]

  I have an idea for product but how do I [TS]

  make that product what people that we [TS]

  need to make that product a reality so [TS]

  that it actually works and what partners [TS]

  do I have to do like it's a difficult [TS]

  business um getting back to the broader [TS]

  issue of this thing like the reason [TS]

  Apple is doing [TS]

  as we've discussed in the passes if the [TS]

  Apple wants to be in this business of [TS]

  selling you video over the Internet [TS]

  everybody else is doing it it is an [TS]

  important differentiator like eventually [TS]

  if everybody else has original content [TS]

  like this is why I get Hulu this is why [TS]

  I get Netflix like because of these [TS]

  specific shows and Apple doesn't have [TS]

  any of those it has no more [TS]

  differentiator like other than I bought [TS]

  a bunch of movie on iTunes and unless I [TS]

  go and you know remove the DRM oh I need [TS]

  I need an Apple TV to to view them very [TS]

  quickly these streaming services have [TS]

  stopped being differentiated by the fact [TS]

  that wow I can watch a video over the [TS]

  internet cuz they can all do that and [TS]

  they all have clients if this is another [TS]

  thing all clients everywhere this is a [TS]

  question someone had on Twitter I think [TS]

  maybe directed us or maybe someone else [TS]

  is like am I gonna need an Apple TV to [TS]

  watch this original TV content or will I [TS]

  be able to watch it not on an Apple TV [TS]

  could I watch it in a web browser could [TS]

  I you know couldn't watch it is it built [TS]

  into my television and the answer so far [TS]

  is haplin's apples been like well no you [TS]

  can watch them your iPad your iPhone and [TS]

  your Apple TV no place else can you [TS]

  watch it's not built into your TV you [TS]

  can't watch from a web browser you can't [TS]

  watch it on Windows and it's like what [TS]

  nobody else is doing that if you want to [TS]

  watch Netflix you can watch it [TS]

  everywhere you go like a Netflix on your [TS]

  on your wristwatch I mean you know it's [TS]

  it's everywhere nothing doesn't have [TS]

  Netflix on it that's the strategy and [TS]

  you do if you want to compete so that's [TS]

  the other thing I'm looking for is will [TS]

  Apple go iPod on this and say yes we're [TS]

  gonna make the iPod for Windows yes [TS]

  we're gonna let you watch whatever [TS]

  they're gonna and I have to divorce her [TS]

  from Apple music obviously - because [TS]

  it's silly to continue with that charade [TS]

  right if they really want to play with [TS]

  their big competitors Netflix Amazon HBO [TS]

  Hulu everybody else who's got some kind [TS]

  of is funding some kind of original [TS]

  content table stakes is I can view it [TS]

  anywhere I want and the original content [TS]

  is actually worth getting the service [TS]

  for and they've got a long way to go to [TS]

  get there someone pointed out that maybe [TS]

  you can watch it on iTunes in Windows [TS]

  probably if I joined the Windows [TS]

  probably not the idea of viewing [TS]

  experience and we're all rooting for [TS]

  iTunes to die anyway right now I feel [TS]

  like this is one of those things - like [TS]

  for for this to succeed you have to [TS]

  really go all in on it [TS]

  you [TS]

  have to really you know like you were [TS]

  saying like you this right now it seems [TS]

  like these original content efforts are [TS]

  just he's kind of like side projects [TS]

  that are a little bit promoted a little [TS]

  bit funded a little bit prioritized and [TS]

  they're kind of these things that are [TS]

  made to try to boost Apple music buzz [TS]

  and subscriptions which is totally wrong [TS]

  like that's not how you compete in the [TS]

  music space you don't compete there with [TS]

  video services that with with a two or [TS]

  three original content lines like that's [TS]

  not at all how that works but I feel [TS]

  like if Apple really wants to do this [TS]

  really do it like really go all-in make [TS]

  it a big thing maybe by somebody like [TS]

  Netflix or HBO or something like really [TS]

  go all out and really do it I just I [TS]

  don't see the value in kind of kind of [TS]

  half butting it like they've been doing [TS]

  seemingly so far like why do a little [TS]

  bit of this kind of buried in this [TS]

  product that no one's looking for video [TS]

  in either don't do it or do it right [TS]

  because maybe like the slow start like I [TS]

  don't know what the budget was before [TS]

  but again 1 billion is a smaller budget [TS]

  like they're they're obviously getting [TS]

  serious about it and hot trying to hire [TS]

  more of the right people but it's a slow [TS]

  start like they're not they're not [TS]

  coming in on day one and said we're [TS]

  gonna put 10 billion dollars because [TS]

  they just blow it they blow that 10 [TS]

  billion they have no idea what to do [TS]

  with that money like it's not so I mean [TS]

  the slow start would be better if the [TS]

  few little things they made were [TS]

  actually good even if they're weird [TS]

  appendages to Apple music but I mean the [TS]

  Apple music thing I think it's learning [TS]

  experience it who knows maybe the [TS]

  carpool karaoke is gonna be insanely [TS]

  popular just because we don't watch it [TS]

  like I know what carpool karaoke is [TS]

  people seem to like it it's you know [TS]

  even if it's not my particular thing [TS]

  sometimes they're amusing right and the [TS]

  reality show was a flop but like you [TS]

  know reality some reality shows or hits [TS]

  some aren't it wasn't it wasn't a crazy [TS]

  idea they just did just blew it they [TS]

  didn't do it they didn't make something [TS]

  that people really want to watch [TS]

  probably again because I feel like they [TS]

  they want to have some kind of Apple [TS]

  news we're Apple what kind of synergy do [TS]

  we have with like no no energy Breaking [TS]

  Bad has no synergy but the people who [TS]

  fund it it's just a good show you just [TS]

  need to make stuff that people want to [TS]

  watch and it's really really hard and I [TS]

  can't help you with it you don't know [TS]

  how to do it either but hiring people [TS]

  who have done it in the past is a good [TS]

  start you know that's a difficulty about [TS]

  a lot of these things like again Apple [TS]

  very small teams small numbers of people [TS]

  if one or two or three people you have [TS]

  in charge of this with the most power [TS]

  are gonna have a big influence and if [TS]

  you end up hiring the wrong people you [TS]

  know then that's bad you get a [TS]

  Papermaster situation or even if you [TS]

  just get like a forestall can't get [TS]

  along with I've and you have two can one [TS]

  of them it's you know these are big [TS]

  companies with a lot of money at stake [TS]

  but in the end it comes down to just a [TS]

  small number of people so Marco you uh [TS]

  blogged for the first time in forever [TS]

  recently I'm very proud of you this is [TS]

  very exciting does it yeah it counts it [TS]

  turns out that market org is still a [TS]

  thing it hadn't been a thing for almost [TS]

  three months but it is still a thing [TS]

  however Marco giveth and Marco taketh [TS]

  away what happened to send to watch an [TS]

  overcast basically I had to pull it I've [TS]

  already covered this pretty well both in [TS]

  the blog post and in under the radar [TS]

  about two weeks ago so I don't want to [TS]

  cover it too much here but basically I [TS]

  was using a crazy hack that would allow [TS]

  me to use good audio api's on the Apple [TS]

  watch and watch iOS for that doesn't [TS]

  work anymore so now the only way to [TS]

  write this feature is to stop using the [TS]

  good audio api's that allow my process [TS]

  to keep running and monitoring with AV [TS]

  audio player and the only way to make [TS]

  this happen now is to use the old WK [TS]

  audio file player watch playback API [TS]

  which basically is used in practice by I [TS]

  think almost nothing Apple doesn't seem [TS]

  to use it for anything which is probably [TS]

  why it's so incomplete and buggy and [TS]

  it's it's it's a much larger more [TS]

  complex pile of hacks because it [TS]

  involves transferring control of the [TS]

  playback to the system and your app [TS]

  stops running in the background and then [TS]

  this the system will wake you up [TS]

  occasionally maybe if you are lucky when [TS]

  things happen like the queue runs out or [TS]

  the track is over or something else but [TS]

  that's about it it forces a certain type [TS]

  of interaction with the now playing [TS]

  glance that does not work at all for [TS]

  podcasts it makes it very bad experience [TS]

  for podcasts so things like [TS]

  if you hit the seek forward button it [TS]

  immediately stops playing the current [TS]

  podcast and either move to the next one [TS]

  if there is one or just stops its [TS]

  instead of like skipping forward 15 [TS]

  seconds or whatever like you actually [TS]

  want things like that there's all sorts [TS]

  of little shortcomings like that this [TS]

  API was designed for music it was it was [TS]

  clearly designed so that somebody you [TS]

  know somebody like a Spotify or [TS]

  something could make a sync to Apple [TS]

  watch feature and have the Apple watch [TS]

  play a playlist of music when you apply [TS]

  the same API to podcasts there are so [TS]

  many shortcomings and bugs and weird [TS]

  behavior to the system that are just not [TS]

  at all a podcast listeners want or need [TS]

  that it makes for a very bad experience [TS]

  so early on when I was developing the [TS]

  sin to watch feature I was basing it on [TS]

  this API because this seemed to be the [TS]

  only way to do it and I actually decided [TS]

  to not ship it like I spent months on it [TS]

  and after fighting with his API over and [TS]

  over again I decided it was so bad I [TS]

  can't ship this feature so I didn't I [TS]

  found a bunch of bugs I you know talked [TS]

  to people and Apple to make sure they [TS]

  knew about them and everything and you [TS]

  know how many apps are using this of all [TS]

  the of all the needs that watch OS has [TS]

  like this might satisfy like ten apps [TS]

  maybe like almost nobody needs this [TS]

  feature so I can understand why this [TS]

  doesn't seem to be a priority for them [TS]

  to to really improve audio playback API [TS]

  was in the launch especially because [TS]

  this one probably works ok enough for [TS]

  music syncing so it's really only [TS]

  podcast an audiobook another long-form [TS]

  audio syncing they would actually need [TS]

  this my hack but that allowed me to use [TS]

  a the audio player allowed me to ship a [TS]

  version of this feature that was [TS]

  minimally acceptable it still wasn't [TS]

  good there's still lots of other [TS]

  problems with the feature like how long [TS]

  it takes to transfer data how I as the [TS]

  as like basically as the programmer and [TS]

  that therefore you as the user don't [TS]

  have any indication of whether it [TS]

  transfers in progress or how long it's [TS]

  going to take like the reason that's not [TS]

  exposed in the UI is that I don't have [TS]

  that information the API doesn't provide [TS]

  that information so there's there's all [TS]

  sorts of shortcomings in the api's and [TS]

  the technical limitations of these [TS]

  platforms most of which are very [TS]

  understandable because most of us show [TS]

  like yeah you know what the watch is in [TS]

  low [TS]

  our device you know it needs to squeeze [TS]

  every bit of power it can out of the you [TS]

  know tiny little parts and batteries [TS]

  that it has most of these are very [TS]

  understandable things but the reality is [TS]

  it was barely possible to make a barely [TS]

  acceptable version of this feature and [TS]

  now that the audio API has changed and [TS]

  has forced me to go back to the old one [TS]

  that I deemed unship well you know [TS]

  probably nine months ago when I first [TS]

  tried to do this that is now that has [TS]

  now made this feature unship evil again [TS]

  unfortunately I've already shipped it so [TS]

  so I had to remove this feature and and [TS]

  that's never easy that's never an easy [TS]

  decision to make [TS]

  it's not a very popular thing to do you [TS]

  know I'm getting you know a good number [TS]

  of one-star reviews from it which I [TS]

  expected you know that was part of the [TS]

  calculus to do it I had to weigh that [TS]

  but you know I removed the feature now [TS]

  and if I can bring it back in the future [TS]

  you know as the api's and the hardware [TS]

  mature I would love to do that because I [TS]

  already wrote most of the hard stuff to [TS]

  do this but there is simply no good way [TS]

  to play podcasts in the background on [TS]

  the Apple watch in watch OS 4 and [TS]

  hopefully that'll change over time do [TS]

  you have any hopes of them changing it [TS]

  like maybe if Apple heads offline watch [TS]

  play backup podcast to their podcast app [TS]

  do you know do you have any info like oh [TS]

  you know not this release this release [TS]

  you're stuck but next year they'll be [TS]

  updating always the API is to be podcast [TS]

  savvy because I guess or not you know [TS]

  not obscure like it seemed not they're [TS]

  obviously not as important as music [TS]

  right but in this release they did the [TS]

  thing lets you mess with the music [TS]

  during your workout in an easier way so [TS]

  they understand that people are [TS]

  controlling audio playback on their [TS]

  watches so do you think next year you [TS]

  know do you have expectations that wo [TS]

  receive like Oh new API is that make it [TS]

  possible to do this again or you just [TS]

  like have no real hope of them [TS]

  addressing this because it doesn't seem [TS]

  like a thing they care about well [TS]

  there's still a lot of technical [TS]

  limitations so with with the new like [TS]

  music syncing there's been much choice [TS]

  for they demoed during the keynote that [TS]

  there's this kind of like new automatic [TS]

  music syncing kind of thing where you [TS]

  where it just kind of automatically can [TS]

  can like sync a playlist you know for [TS]

  you based on what you like a basement [TS]

  you slice it over [TS]

  where else and so I think the real like [TS]

  the way this seems to work is overnight [TS]

  while it's charging on the charger it's [TS]

  doing these data transfers that are that [TS]

  could be large and time-consuming so [TS]

  that way doesn't have to worry about you [TS]

  know speed being low or about using too [TS]

  much power for a podcast like feature to [TS]

  work that's probably how it really has [TS]

  to be because you know problem number [TS]

  one which I never solved was it's too [TS]

  slow to transfer data to to the watch [TS]

  and it all sorts of crazy hacks like [TS]

  I've heard a whole transcoding engine [TS]

  that would Transco to a lower bitrate [TS]

  and then send it because that was [TS]

  actually faster than just sending it to [TS]

  begin with you know its original size so [TS]

  solving that speed problem that's a huge [TS]

  problem and it's going to take I think [TS]

  multiple generations probably of the [TS]

  hardware being improved before that's no [TS]

  longer a big problem so as long as they [TS]

  transfer the watch is still slow syncing [TS]

  podcasts to it is always going to be [TS]

  awkward or clunky these podcasts don't [TS]

  work the same ways music with music you [TS]

  can sync a playlist overnight and that's [TS]

  it you're done like you're probably not [TS]

  going to want to change that like in the [TS]

  middle of the day by sending all of a [TS]

  sudden 60 Meg's of new information to it [TS]

  that you really want to be available [TS]

  right the second right now whereas with [TS]

  podcast that happens an episode comes [TS]

  out like you know if this worked the [TS]

  same way that we that have worked in the [TS]

  iPod days back when podcast first came [TS]

  out a decade ago the idea of an episode [TS]

  coming out and then you having to wait [TS]

  till you got home to sync it to your [TS]

  iPod and listen to it maybe the next day [TS]

  that was how we did things back then but [TS]

  now things are better now we don't live [TS]

  in you know the Stone Age anymore now [TS]

  when a new episode comes out you expect [TS]

  to be able to hit play immediately and [TS]

  start playing it and so to have that [TS]

  with to have that kind of experience [TS]

  with the watch with podcasts the whole [TS]

  you you can't wait for it to sync [TS]

  overnight you can't wait for like oh [TS]

  next I'm I plug in the watch I have some [TS]

  kind of system to automatically sync [TS]

  stuff over while charging overnight like [TS]

  that that's not a good enough experience [TS]

  what you need is something that you can [TS]

  say I want to listen to this right now [TS]

  go and have it be not a significant [TS]

  amount of time before you can do that I [TS]

  think long-term the way this is solved [TS]

  is the watch becomes a full-blown client [TS]

  of the app [TS]

  it's own downloads and its own sync to [TS]

  the servers and is no longer you know a [TS]

  tethered to the phone app as much as it [TS]

  is now long term that is probably the [TS]

  right solution but that requires large [TS]

  advances in the hardware and software [TS]

  before that's possible you know that [TS]

  would require first of all the the [TS]

  rumored cellular watch or at least you [TS]

  know more frequent Wi-Fi connectivity [TS]

  whatever you know that would require [TS]

  things that we don't have today really [TS]

  to do that to that very well the other [TS]

  thing is on the software side I don't [TS]

  know the the fine detail of this in fact [TS]

  I bet Steve trout and Smith probably [TS]

  knows a lot more about this than I do [TS]

  when when you write apps for the i phone [TS]

  module using are the exact same API that [TS]

  Apple uses the incentive is pretty [TS]

  strong for Apple to keep those things [TS]

  up-to-date because they use them too so [TS]

  if there's like a bug in UI kit it's [TS]

  probably gonna affect Apple also in [TS]

  their own apps and their own development [TS]

  so they have a pretty strong incentive [TS]

  to fix that whereas on the watch [TS]

  developers have only have only had [TS]

  access to watch kit we don't have [TS]

  straight UI kit it seems I think I'm not [TS]

  positive on this but I think Apple is [TS]

  using lower level api's Apple seems to [TS]

  be using something like UI kit to make [TS]

  their apps on the watch but we [TS]

  developers are using this kind of subset [TS]

  then that we're kind of being forced to [TS]

  use and we can't use like the real API [TS]

  is and the watch and so what we are [TS]

  using Apple doesn't seem to have a very [TS]

  strong incentive to fix what we use [TS]

  because I don't think they're using it [TS]

  and especially like the the audio [TS]

  playback API is that you know the what I [TS]

  have seen so far with with the [TS]

  limitations and bugs that they have I [TS]

  don't think Apple uses any of them on [TS]

  the watch that we use like I honestly [TS]

  don't like at Apple is probably using AV [TS]

  foundation directly on the watch but we [TS]

  don't have access to that in any kind of [TS]

  way that would that we can actually [TS]

  background on the watch we only have for [TS]

  grant access to some of those things and [TS]

  background access to this awful wk [TS]

  audiophile player thing that has all the [TS]

  bugs so until that changes like until [TS]

  until apples using the same things we [TS]

  are using on the watch I don't think [TS]

  it's ever going to be [TS]

  amazing development platform to make [TS]

  advanced [TS]

  type of apps like a podcast player I [TS]

  hope that changes I really do but so far [TS]

  that's it seems like we are using this [TS]

  kind of these kind of like you know baby [TS]

  API is these like training wheel a P I [TS]

  is in the watch that existed at first [TS]

  because it was just so limited and so [TS]

  low powered and like the first watch kit [TS]

  was this huge hack that were the thing [TS]

  around the phone and was kind of beamed [TS]

  over so like it made sense then a little [TS]

  bit but now like I want real API access [TS]

  in the watch I want I want like low [TS]

  level you know UI frameworks and [TS]

  full-blown audio frameworks and exactly [TS]

  what we have on the phone in regards to [TS]

  like you know what I mentioned earlier [TS]

  are like about how in in when the watch [TS]

  crazy API if a user hits next track or [TS]

  forward it just stops a podcast if it's [TS]

  playing in the background like the [TS]

  podcast player on the watch can't do [TS]

  what we've done on iOS for ages which is [TS]

  interpret the remote control event [TS]

  manually interpret the event that is [TS]

  sent from a headphone clicker or the [TS]

  lock screen or your car Bluetooth or [TS]

  whatever that says next track and [TS]

  instead of doing next track on iOS we [TS]

  can say oh we'll just move it forward 15 [TS]

  seconds or we can respond whoever we [TS]

  want to that on the watch none of those [TS]

  api's are there we have no way to [TS]

  interact with the remote controls we [TS]

  have no way to set what appears on the [TS]

  now playing scream beast besides a very [TS]

  very limited thing with this crazy watch [TS]

  with this crazy audio player API you can [TS]

  kind of set it but then it's kind of [TS]

  unreliable even basic stuff I found like [TS]

  if you hit pause it doesn't pause like [TS]

  it's half a time like it just two [TS]

  seconds after you hit play or pause the [TS]

  button flips over back the other way [TS]

  it's like crazy stuff it just doesn't [TS]

  work every time I've worked against [TS]

  those api's I have felt like I'm the [TS]

  first person to ever have used them so [TS]

  to answer your the actual question you [TS]

  asked me 25 minutes ago I think it will [TS]

  eventually hopefully become possible to [TS]

  write a good standalone podcast player [TS]

  on the watch but I don't think that's [TS]

  coming soon because too much has to [TS]

  mature we need hardware advancements for [TS]

  the four you know battery and power and [TS]

  data transfer speeds we need all those [TS]

  things to improve we need the ability [TS]

  for apps to actually stay running in the [TS]

  background you know as they're playing [TS]

  audio not just do what watch OS tries to [TS]

  do now and and you know kill us in the [TS]

  backgrounds and leave this weird [TS]

  standalone file player that's run by the [TS]

  system like no we need what we have on [TS]

  the phone basically the phone had us a [TS]

  very long time ago so maybe we weren't [TS]

  that far off who knows but whatever it [TS]

  is we need API parity in a lot of these [TS]

  areas between the watching the phone and [TS]

  not only do we not have that but it [TS]

  almost feels like Apple doesn't want to [TS]

  do that in the watch it seems like they [TS]

  think that this is all the audio [TS]

  exposure we need right now and I don't [TS]

  know if that's an ideological thing or [TS]

  if that's reacting to limitations of the [TS]

  current hardware either way that has to [TS]

  change and that's that's a big change so [TS]

  I don't expect for it to be soon so if [TS]

  if you got I'm trying to think of the [TS]

  minimal stuff that you would need for [TS]

  this because it's gonna it's gonna be a [TS]

  while before you get like full access to [TS]

  the api's that allies if ever if you [TS]

  just got cell data and the ability to [TS]

  run in the background at the very least [TS]

  you could make a very simple streaming [TS]

  only player that communicates with that [TS]

  that pulls the data from wherever the [TS]

  the podcast is and that communicates [TS]

  with your server in a lightweight way to [TS]

  keep sort of the timestamp updated right [TS]

  because if you is that's not that's not [TS]

  heavy background work you're like you [TS]

  know pull it pulling data for this [TS]

  podcast you know you have plenty of time [TS]

  to slurp it up when your connection is [TS]

  good and then just sleep for a while you [TS]

  know whatever it's the input of the [TS]

  audio data is fine and you've gotta [TS]

  communicate with your server a little [TS]

  bit every you know you do it every [TS]

  minute who knows like just say Oh update [TS]

  the pipe is it an update to play [TS]

  position or whatever and then I guess [TS]

  minimal interface the controls to [TS]

  understand what you you know how to have [TS]

  control over when you get the next and [TS]

  previous to do something different than [TS]

  than doing something ridiculous and that [TS]

  I think you know I know this is this [TS]

  entire section is about offline watch [TS]

  playback but this I think would fulfill [TS]

  all the needs like I don't need to bring [TS]

  my phone with me I can just wear my [TS]

  watch and I can listen to my podcast and [TS]

  but mostly getting it with it but the [TS]

  question about do you have an [TS]

  expectation today if you had any inside [TS]

  information about it but I don't [TS]

  presumably Apple will eventually on this [TS]

  list [TS]

  things that we want to add to the watch [TS]

  get to the point where people like yeah [TS]

  people do like to listen to music and [TS]

  their watch they also would like to [TS]

  probably listen to podcasts and their [TS]

  watch they know how many people listen [TS]

  to podcasts they have their stats for [TS]

  the podcast app that comes bundled with [TS]

  your phone podcasts are a thing again [TS]

  not as big as music eventually I think [TS]

  Apple will get around to the idea of [TS]

  like oh it's silly that you can't listen [TS]

  to podcasts and your watch without your [TS]

  phone with you especially now that we [TS]

  have the second generation of this watch [TS]

  with sell day access right so they will [TS]

  get to it eventually so I feel like [TS]

  there's hope for you you're not just [TS]

  like swinging in the wind we're like [TS]

  they're just never gonna get to me but I [TS]

  don't know what the timeline looks like [TS]

  on that it's um it's very difficult to [TS]

  tell how much Apple cares about a [TS]

  podcast sometimes well it's also this is [TS]

  the kind of feature that and believe [TS]

  everyone's and lots of these if you ask [TS]

  people if they want this feature a [TS]

  certain number of them will say yes of [TS]

  course I want that feature or certain [TS]

  I'm or the MOL email you be without [TS]

  you've asked you saying please I want [TS]

  this feature but then if you actually [TS]

  give it to them the the number of people [TS]

  who actually use it is all usually or [TS]

  not often for some of these features way [TS]

  way lower than than what they thought [TS]

  before they had it it's also the [TS]

  usability like I remember when I tried [TS]

  to send it to the watch it's not easy to [TS]

  just figure out even how to do it and [TS]

  then when you do figure out how to do it [TS]

  the fact that it doesn't work that well [TS]

  will discourage people from using it [TS]

  sure and and I think a lot of people had [TS]

  that same experience with playing music [TS]

  on the watch through Apple's apps like [TS]

  it the reason they had to do this this [TS]

  kind of overnight automatic syncing [TS]

  thing with watch OS 4 is because before [TS]

  that when you had to kind of manually [TS]

  picked up to sync over than wait you [TS]

  know forever for transfer that was [TS]

  terrible it was so bad most people [TS]

  didn't do it even now on the watch I [TS]

  find the playback experience even if you [TS]

  even if you can get the data there the [TS]

  the playback and control experience and [TS]

  the watch is a really rough compared to [TS]

  what you have on the phone again this [TS]

  goes back to my thing of never bet [TS]

  against the smart phone the smart phone [TS]

  is really good at this stuff it's it is [TS]

  very rare that I do something on my [TS]

  watch to interact with a podcast that is [TS]

  at all non-trivial that I don't regret [TS]

  not doing it not just taking out my [TS]

  phone and doing it there like if you're [TS]

  doing something like you know skip to [TS]

  the next chapter fine take up take out [TS]

  the watch I do there it's it's [TS]

  fast if that's you know if you're out [TS]

  with your walking on me that's fine but [TS]

  like for anything anything non-trivial I [TS]

  find it very hard to do anything on the [TS]

  watch and not even just with audio in [TS]

  general and and so and there have been [TS]

  lots of other overcast features where [TS]

  like people have asked for it or wanted [TS]

  it some of the things I haven't even [TS]

  released because like like for example [TS]

  the the Sonos integration I right now [TS]

  there's as I mentioned I think somewhere [TS]

  on Twitter is when there's an API [TS]

  limitation that basically makes it in my [TS]

  opinion not good enough to ship sir [TS]

  sound familiar so I'm not shipping it [TS]

  but I found in my testing of the Sonos [TS]

  integration it was not a very good [TS]

  experience and I mostly just preferred [TS]

  to have podcast playing through my phone [TS]

  speaker sitting on the counter or [TS]

  eventually upgraded to an iPad pro with [TS]

  big speakers in it so that's the way [TS]

  like and so like an iPad pro on the [TS]

  counter is by far the best way to play [TS]

  podcasts out in the open at home by a [TS]

  long shot it's way better than so no [TS]

  it's way better than echo it's just a [TS]

  way better experience and because pot [TS]

  you don't like you don't listen to [TS]

  podcast the same way listen to music [TS]

  there's a lot more interaction involved [TS]

  and you have different like you want to [TS]

  look at if somebody mentions a link you [TS]

  want to look at the show notes if you [TS]

  know you might want to seek around a [TS]

  little bitter or look at a chapter list [TS]

  or skip ahead or skip commercials or [TS]

  whatever else like there's much more [TS]

  interaction with podcast than when you [TS]

  have with music so like these systems [TS]

  that are designed for music playback [TS]

  when you try to play podcast them it [TS]

  sounds like a good idea and it's [TS]

  something could be awesome but trust me [TS]

  when you actually get it it's not nearly [TS]

  as good as just using your phone or [TS]

  using an iPad that's you know sitting up [TS]

  on the counter so there's a lot of these [TS]

  features and I think watch playback is [TS]

  just one of these things that the nature [TS]

  of interacting with the watch it's so [TS]

  limited the software so limited the [TS]

  hardware the ergonomics are so limited [TS]

  because it's such a tiny little device I [TS]

  don't think it's ever gonna be a great [TS]

  experience to play and manage podcasts [TS]

  on the watch it's it's gonna be [TS]

  something that people will ask for [TS]

  forever and some people will use it no [TS]

  question you know I'm not saying nobody [TS]

  will use it but I'm saying very few [TS]

  people will even if it's done well like [TS]

  even you know even if I do everything [TS]

  right and even if the harbor gets a [TS]

  little bit better and [TS]

  things a little bit faster I still don't [TS]

  think it's going to be a very good [TS]

  experience compared to used taking at [TS]

  your phone and doing it there you know [TS]

  you said something earlier Marco about [TS]

  the potential for an LTE equipped watch [TS]

  and I was on clockwise earlier today and [TS]

  that was actually the question I brought [TS]

  up is hey if would you be interested in [TS]

  an LTE equipped watch and and you know [TS]

  why or why not and and not to rehash [TS]

  that too much but what I was saying was [TS]

  you know I've been running a few times a [TS]

  week lately and we'll see how long that [TS]

  sticks but it's been sticking you know [TS]

  for a while now it's been a couple of [TS]

  months and it occurred to me recently [TS]

  that the part of the reason I bring my [TS]

  phone when I run is because if I were to [TS]

  somehow really injure myself I'd really [TS]

  want to be able to call like Aaron or or [TS]

  you know an ambulance if it really was [TS]

  that bad and if I had a watch that had [TS]

  the mechanism by which I could do that [TS]

  you know it was presumably you know with [TS]

  LTE although I saw some rumblings [TS]

  earlier today saying that maybe it would [TS]

  be data only and not not permit phone [TS]

  calls but either way if I had a watch [TS]

  that could call for help someway somehow [TS]

  then maybe I wouldn't need to bring my [TS]

  phone with me which would be nice that I [TS]

  wouldn't have to you know because [TS]

  currently I carry it I don't have one of [TS]

  those peculiar arm bands or anything and [TS]

  it occurred to me Wow you know it would [TS]

  be really great to be able to listen to [TS]

  my podcasts on my crap so I definitely [TS]

  am NOT one that had used the send to [TS]

  watch feature in overcast while it was [TS]

  there but I I am on a series zero watch [TS]

  and I think I'll probably upgrade this [TS]

  year and yeah it would be pretty cool if [TS]

  that came back so count me in is one of [TS]

  those people that's looking forward to [TS]

  you somehow figuring out a way to make [TS]

  this work again presumably with API [TS]

  changes by the way Steve Brown Smith [TS]

  actually gave us the name of the thing [TS]

  that Apple's apps used on the watch in [TS]

  the tradition of weird internal Apple [TS]

  names I mean springboards kind of weird [TS]

  too but the weird code games like [TS]

  where's the watch like code name gizmo [TS]

  or something anyway [TS]

  watch kit runs on top of pepper UI core [TS]

  like you know black pepper and pepper UI [TS]

  core runs the top of you [TS]

  like it how do you know it isn't about a [TS]

  bell peppers I don't know what it's [TS]

  about [TS]

  maybe Chris pepper yeah couldn't be here [TS]

  to correct your typos for you mm-hmm [TS]

  joke with an audience of seven people [TS]

  yay [TS]

  thanks for sponsors this week fracture [TS]

  and aftershocks and we'll see you next [TS]

  week now the show is over it was [TS]

  accidental URL is s so that's Casey less [TS]

  and a are Co AR m and T Marco Arment [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  I have some bike follow-up ah excellent [TS]

  what's a year I saw your bike in our [TS]

  tips bike and I couldn't figure out if [TS]

  that was your I'm gonna buy the bike and [TS]

  I don't like I'm gonna give it to TIFF [TS]

  or was an entirely separate dedicated [TS]

  TIFF bike it so well it was the bike [TS]

  that I was buying for probably TIFF I [TS]

  was gonna see if I liked it and and so [TS]

  that's kind of why I bought it first [TS]

  like I was going to use my opinion of [TS]

  that to inform what I was going to get [TS]

  for myself and that bike was the [TS]

  priority Coast priority is a they seem [TS]

  to be a pretty good bike company they [TS]

  they they're a new york-based company [TS]

  they starting Kickstarter and they they [TS]

  have they do all belt drive bikes I [TS]

  mentioned last year that I like the belt [TS]

  drive for the lack of maintenance and [TS]

  better you know everything so I like the [TS]

  belt drive and that's when I wanted the [TS]

  priority coast is their beach cruiser [TS]

  model I got it [TS]

  kind of thinking I don't think I want to [TS]

  be screwed I think I wanted like a [TS]

  little bit more like a forward position [TS]

  like I've I always enjoyed mountain [TS]

  bikes more than most other things most [TS]

  other bike shapes I guess and you know [TS]

  that kind of like kind of for position [TS]

  with the straight bars and the hand [TS]

  brakes and everything like I just like [TS]

  that better I think but you know this is [TS]

  a beach town and and every literally [TS]

  every other bike in town except for the [TS]

  cop bikes are beach cruisers even one of [TS]

  the cops has a beach cruiser the rest [TS]

  have mountain bikes but anyway so like I [TS]

  thought that I should probably try that [TS]

  so we did and it is a little bit big for [TS]

  me which I kind of expected going into [TS]

  it so it's a little bit big and I really [TS]

  don't like the coaster break it this [TS]

  seems like a beach cruiser thing that [TS]

  all beach cruisers have that you know [TS]

  where you pedal backwards to break the [TS]

  coaster brakes I just I was not [TS]

  I've taken that bike out a few times and [TS]

  I just could not get into the coaster [TS]

  brake it also it has the the coaster [TS]

  brake seemingly I was like the main [TS]

  break and then it also has a front only [TS]

  hand brake and that to me was very [TS]

  confusing I think if this was gonna be [TS]

  my bike [TS]

  I would actually remove the front [TS]

  handbrake because to have like half of [TS]

  one method of breaking but the main [TS]

  method of breaking be the other thing [TS]

  like it was just very confusing it like [TS]

  I wanted that on there because coaster [TS]

  brakes suck and if you need to stop I [TS]

  don't want you to die because the [TS]

  coaster brakes can't stop you you know [TS]

  right I mean it really is this friction [TS]

  boy even if the coaster brakes could [TS]

  lock up the back wheel you will stop [TS]

  faster if you could also do something to [TS]

  stop the front wheel so I that would be [TS]

  a bad idea to get a bike with coaster [TS]

  brakes and remove I've just seen bikes [TS]

  with hand brakes that only have the back [TS]

  hand brake like you need you want [TS]

  something pinching both the front of the [TS]

  back wheels because you need both [TS]

  contact patches to stop here in [TS]

  emergency so don't don't do that well [TS]

  and and you know my needs here are lower [TS]

  because it again like because they're [TS]

  all like sidewalks full of people that [TS]

  you're riding on but there's no roads [TS]

  there's like these broad sidewalks and [TS]

  they're all full of people and wagons [TS]

  and stuff so like you actually can't go [TS]

  that fast most of the time so a deer [TS]

  that yeah that actually is a concern or [TS]

  fox or deers get deers gonna hit you [TS]

  yeah that's more like more like it [TS]

  anyway so so that was fine I then after [TS]

  lots of research and waffling as you [TS]

  know I'm I'm prone to do I decided you [TS]

  know yeah right so I am now driving a [TS]

  CVT [TS]

  just for John oh my god oh my god it is [TS]

  another it's also priority it's their [TS]

  their continuum onyx model it's [TS]

  basically their like high-end road bike [TS]

  I have some issues with it it's not a [TS]

  road bike like a road bike it's like a [TS]

  it's like it's a commuter bike so it's [TS]

  like it's not like a racing like like [TS]

  the handlebars don't have like those [TS]

  like dip down new shapes road bike is a [TS]

  term of art sorry it's like a tends to [TS]

  be type thing but not fun for the really [TS]

  skinny tires yeah it's a commuter bike I [TS]

  have some issues with it their fenders [TS]

  are pretty low quality on both of the [TS]

  bikes and they rattle a little bit and [TS]

  even even when they're tightened and [TS]

  everything the fenders are also slightly [TS]

  asymmetrical which is I can't tell if [TS]

  it's intentional or not like they look [TS]

  just kind of crooked so I'm probably [TS]

  gonna remove the fenders because they [TS]

  just kind of are annoying me and and I [TS]

  think in retrospect this was a bad [TS]

  choice for a beach town because it has [TS]

  these really skinny [TS]

  high pressure tires and while that might [TS]

  be great [TS]

  a well paved road when you're commuting [TS]

  to work I guess there's a reason why [TS]

  every other bike I pass in the beach [TS]

  town has these like 2 inch wide cruiser [TS]

  tires like there's a reason for that and [TS]

  and so when you're riding along these [TS]

  walks that are all I think the old [TS]

  concrete you know it's like it's like [TS]

  riding on an old sidewalk so you know [TS]

  you're going bump a bump a bump a bump [TS]

  like as you go like you just hit you're [TS]

  feeling every bump and and on these [TS]

  tires you feel it a lot so I'm actually [TS]

  I think I might go to the bike guy in [TS]

  town and see if he can like see if he [TS]

  has any larger tires that would still [TS]

  fit these rims did I make it too big of [TS]

  a project but and the seat is like [TS]

  sitting on a rock like they call it the [TS]

  priority comfort seat or saddle I think [TS]

  they call them bike people call them [TS]

  saddles for some reason I don't know [TS]

  what part of this is comfortable exactly [TS]

  but it's certainly not the part that my [TS]

  butt is sitting on so I have to fix that [TS]

  as well fortunately as an easy fix [TS]

  there's a lot make sure you get a [TS]

  prostate friendly one I was not aware [TS]

  there was a difference the one you have [TS]

  is like you know you're distinguished by [TS]

  like there being a big split in the [TS]

  middle you're like why is this seat [TS]

  split in half yeah yeah it has like a [TS]

  little hole in the middle right so [TS]

  sometimes they just give a suggestion of [TS]

  a crease there which I feel like doesn't [TS]

  help and sometimes there's actually an [TS]

  air gap there but anyway you want [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  okay good noted so I so I have that you [TS]

  probably you probably want for you're [TS]

  sensitive to see like a gel seat or some [TS]

  other thing that's squishy yeah like [TS]

  like the the the old rusted-out mountain [TS]

  bike I thought I was riding here [TS]

  beforehand that only technically has [TS]

  like three gears left if it's 21 [TS]

  that one has like an aftermarket gel [TS]

  seat on it and that that was always fine [TS]

  for me so I mean I heard someone on [TS]

  Amazon that was well reviewed we'll see [TS]

  how it goes when it gets here in three [TS]

  years [TS]

  because thanks here from Amazon is [TS]

  tricky anyway so you know replacing to [TS]

  see that otherwise it's very nice I [TS]

  really love disc brakes this is my first [TS]

  time I've ever ridden a bike that has [TS]

  disc brakes it's such a massive [TS]

  difference over the regular like V style [TS]

  calipers that go on the rim it stops [TS]

  like on a dime it's amazing so big fan [TS]

  of that big fan of generally the [TS]

  handling of the shape of the bike [TS]

  although again the tires are way too [TS]

  skinny so I'm going to work on that too [TS]

  and the CVT is amazing like it shouldn't [TS]

  be as good as it is but it's it's just [TS]

  really really nice when one of the [TS]

  advances and and there are there are [TS]

  gear hubs that do this too you can shift [TS]

  at you know even even when you're at a [TS]

  stop you can still shift so if you like [TS]

  going in a high gear have to stop really [TS]

  fast and don't time it like you know [TS]

  shit'll be back down doesn't matter just [TS]

  twist the handle you're in the low gear [TS]

  you just go because it's the CVT and [TS]

  because you can just kind of twist as [TS]

  often as you like on that gear and any [TS]

  interval you like I find myself shifting [TS]

  way more than I wouldn't are on a [TS]

  derailleur style bike I wouldn't say [TS]

  it's necessary like I'd be fine with a [TS]

  geared setup or even with a fixed gear [TS]

  for most of the time I ride here but [TS]

  it's really nice to have this that way [TS]

  you can like you know if I'm slowing [TS]

  down for a turn or something I I guess [TS]

  kind of you know kind of automatically [TS]

  kind of started you know going into the [TS]

  lower gears and then moving back out as [TS]

  I go [TS]

  like as I pedals going back up it's [TS]

  really cool actually sure you do rev [TS]

  matching yeah for the corner [TS]

  flip the pedal literally yeah so anyway [TS]

  it was probably not the best bike to get [TS]

  for the beach because of it's incredibly [TS]

  hard ride that's obviously designed for [TS]

  smooth roads and not ya know shot it's [TS]

  it seems like shocks are passe in fancy [TS]

  bikes it's like nobody wants to build [TS]

  shocks anymore well for mountain bikes [TS]

  you need them or anything that's not not [TS]

  uneven terrain you need it for not for [TS]

  good not just for comfort but also for [TS]

  control I also it's been so since we [TS]

  recorded I also got curious about sand [TS]

  bikes or fat bikes as bike people seem [TS]

  to call them the ones that have like [TS]

  five inch wide giant sand tires those [TS]

  you occasionally see those around here [TS]

  and I thought that could be interesting [TS]

  then I could ride past the crazy point [TS]

  of woods fence and I could expand my [TS]

  horizons into in the directions so I [TS]

  could like I had to get more distance if [TS]

  I can ride on the sand [TS]

  so I spent since we last recorded about [TS]

  two weeks ago I spent this time [TS]

  researching fat bikes and you know and [TS]

  try looking around for places that I [TS]

  could maybe rent one or try one and it [TS]

  wasn't until about two days ago that I [TS]

  learned that my neighbor has one and he [TS]

  let me borrow it and [TS]

  showed me how to use it on the sand and [TS]

  how do you ever ridden on sand [TS]

  I've run on saying you were run on sand [TS]

  yeah that's not fun either I knew it [TS]

  would be challenging [TS]

  I did not realize to what degree it will [TS]

  be challenging so I get out there and [TS]

  this is like it's a perfect setup like [TS]

  it's pretty low tide he's showing me [TS]

  exactly where on the sand to ride like [TS]

  so it's like optionally pat optimally [TS]

  packed down slightly damp but not like [TS]

  super wet sand you know so you're and [TS]

  and the bike has like these large 5-inch [TS]

  low-pressure tires so you know so it's [TS]

  it's the ideal setup really like it was [TS]

  it would be hard to find a better setup [TS]

  than the setup I had and so I first [TS]

  started going and for about the first 30 [TS]

  feet or so I'm like this is easy what [TS]

  was I what was I so concerned about this [TS]

  is this is nothing and then after you [TS]

  know as you keep going you're like wait [TS]

  a minute like I have to maintain this [TS]

  level of resistance like indefinitely [TS]

  well got like it's not like a quick hill [TS]

  where like you go up the hill and then [TS]

  you're flat for a while then you can [TS]

  coast for a while you have like low [TS]

  resistance no it's like to keep moving [TS]

  it's like you're going up a pretty [TS]

  sizable hill all the time so I I said [TS]

  something like two or three hundred feet [TS]

  before like are done like I can't do any [TS]

  more turn around [TS]

  but back to him I'm like alright thanks [TS]

  like this this ride is either gonna save [TS]

  me a $50 rental fee from the place in [TS]

  town or it's gonna cost me $1,000 to buy [TS]

  one of these bikes for the first time [TS]

  ever I didn't buy the thing you're now [TS]

  you're researching isse and bikes though [TS]

  of course I research the Eastern bikes [TS]

  but because those are only about 1,500 [TS]

  but but I only honestly that's not [TS]

  compared to the price of ebikes and the [TS]

  price of sand bikes that actually is a [TS]

  really good it's but anyway the my issue [TS]

  with those is like what's the point then [TS]

  like the whole reason I'm riding is for [TS]

  exercise and and getting myself you know [TS]

  like the challenge of it and you know [TS]

  the the e bike thing I think makes more [TS]

  sense if you're doing like commuting or [TS]

  like if they're like [TS]

  some other reasons why you're doing this [TS]

  besides just like the exercise value [TS]

  like if you were a delivery person using [TS]

  using a bike or if you're if you had to [TS]

  ride between these towns and you had to [TS]

  go on the beach - right between the [TS]

  certain ones like for your job or [TS]

  something that'd be a different story [TS]

  then that would make more sense but for [TS]

  my purposes as like this is mainly for [TS]

  exercise any bike is it kind of misses [TS]

  the point I think well what about it [TS]

  exploring this at this point that you [TS]

  want to explore beyond a certain point [TS]

  that you hadn't gone beyond before you [TS]

  want to find in new places to get Lyme [TS]

  disease you should - let you go [TS]

  exploring in areas where previously you [TS]

  would've been too tired to get to I [TS]

  think a more responsible thing to do is [TS]

  to just keep biking until I'm strong [TS]

  enough to do the sand bike thing that [TS]

  like that is that is what I should do it [TS]

  probably isn't what I will do but that's [TS]

  what I should do just walk you just walk [TS]

  on the beach walk in the sand feet work [TS]

  really well no that's what are you crazy [TS]

  so something somehow we go up and down [TS]

  the beaches on Long Island we have no [TS]

  bikes just make sure you bring shoes [TS]

  sand is hot it is pretty frustrating [TS]

  there like when like you will [TS]

  occasionally see somebody with a nice [TS]

  and bike drive-by as you're on the beach [TS]

  you're like dammit [TS]

  yeah so anyway what I ideally still want [TS]

  is basically what I mentioned last time [TS]

  was my high-end option the the bud Nets [TS]

  bicycle the model 3 or number 3 I keep [TS]

  getting their names with Tesla's names [TS]

  because they have some the begin with [TS]

  model and something begin with number [TS]

  anyway I want the button the button it's [TS]

  number three and I will probably end up [TS]

  ordering one of those for home and then [TS]

  maybe next summer I'll get one for the [TS]

  beach but we'll see because the summer [TS]

  is almost over and you can't get them [TS]

  like there they're made button they're [TS]

  made to order so like it takes a few [TS]

  weeks to get them so it's too late for [TS]

  this summer anyway but I think that's [TS]

  what I want here is basically a high [TS]

  SPECT bike that also has wide tires but [TS]

  not quite sand tire wide where are you [TS]

  gonna ride it at home on streets are [TS]

  there like paths you can go on mostly [TS]

  streets but there also is I live near [TS]

  the old Croton Aqueduct Trail [TS]

  I would probably write on that lots of [TS]

  people do there's also nearby bike [TS]

  trails then I have to become like the [TS]

  person who like puts their bike on their [TS]

  car and brings it places and that I [TS]

  might get there sometime I don't know [TS]

  but I don't know anything about that [TS]

  world yet and so I'm a little resistant [TS]

  to that but you know what one thing I [TS]

  think I might get into this is that this [TS]

  is actually I've only told you about two [TS]

  of the three bikes that I've bought [TS]

  since we last talked [TS]

  the third one word was the tiny version [TS]

  which I bought for my son because they [TS]

  also sell priority also sells the [TS]

  priority start which is a tiny belt [TS]

  drive fancy bike made by hipsters in New [TS]

  York I'm sure I'm sure he appreciates [TS]

  the all the nuances of this very [TS]

  expensive fancy bike it first of all [TS]

  compared to other well rated kids bikes [TS]

  it was surprisingly inexpensive like [TS]

  every that the bike that everyone else [TS]

  told us to get which was the isla our [TS]

  Islip bike I love Mike whatever however [TS]

  you pronounce that that's like 400 bucks [TS]

  this was too [TS]

  this was too [TS]

  fifteen so compared to those that's [TS]

  actually not that bad [TS]

  I could also get this quickly that's [TS]

  pretty cheap yeah if I go this is real I [TS]

  mean the problem with these kids lice is [TS]

  a throw away by clay he's gonna grow [TS]

  three inches in the next two weeks and [TS]

  it's like up now he's too big for that [TS]

  bike cuz you know it's like kids clothes [TS]

  yeah well fortunately he got we got the [TS]

  16 inch size and he is like he's barely [TS]

  tall enough to make it now so that way [TS]

  he has the most time to actually use it [TS]

  before he gets too tall for it and it's [TS]

  a pretty well SPECT bike like it has it [TS]

  has dual hand brakes like you know real [TS]

  vibrate on both wheels not a coaster [TS]

  brake and it has the carbon belt instead [TS]

  of the chain cuz once he saw tips and [TS]

  then my and we and he have he asked [TS]

  about why those were there and I [TS]

  explained why it's superior and so of [TS]

  course he wanted one so now we have [TS]

  three people riding priority of bikes we [TS]

  he isn't quite gotten it yet but I bet [TS]

  within the next few days he'll he'll be [TS]

  pretty good on it [TS]

  damn the training wheels on or off off [TS]

  two minutes another thing you can [TS]

  periscope I don't learn to ride just [TS]

  just run but run behind him and hold the [TS]

  seat and you're like oh that's how you [TS]

  do it yeah so that's it we have being [TS]

  Tiferet we're doing that today earlier [TS]

  he it was this is the very first time I [TS]

  tried it so we got it we got slightly [TS]

  far but we didn't we didn't quite get [TS]

  far enough today to float let go for [TS]

  more than a second or two so and well I [TS]

  think we'll privacy over the next few [TS]

  days and probably probably by next week [TS]

  he could be riding a bike I was mostly [TS]

  joking that's not how you should have [TS]

  your head do that stuff the way my [TS]

  father did it to me but that's like the [TS]

  worst way to do the way it should be [TS]

  done is the way you're already doing it [TS]

  you give him the scoot bike so he [TS]

  learned set of balance and he'll do it [TS]

  on his own yeah so he's I think he's [TS]

  basically all study we just used this [TS]

  like a scoot bike but then picks both [TS]

  his feet up and puts them on the pedals [TS]

  instead of just holding them up in the [TS]

  air then it starts pedaling he's off to [TS]

  the races yeah we're getting there this [TS]

  button it's bike is weird [TS]

  which one the number three yeah the [TS]

  frame is weird [TS]

  well that's they're actually known for [TS]

  their like cool artistic frame and it's [TS]

  no no CVT you're gonna be spoiled by the [TS]

  CVT and then you're gonna come to this [TS]

  and it's like 11 gears that's not enough [TS]

  actually I already asked them and they [TS]

  they actually would do a CVT if I wanted [TS]

  it but yeah no I mean it's because it [TS]

  seems like it what I actually want [TS]

  is a road version of a mountain bike [TS]

  yeah that's what this looks like except [TS]

  for the front frame and so with the you [TS]

  know this gives me you know high-end [TS]

  parts like it has like good brakes good [TS]

  gearing options the carbon belt you know [TS]

  it like nice stuff and a slightly [TS]

  mountain bike a slightly Rohde kind of [TS]

  hybrid riding position and wide tire [TS]

  support and it looks cool and oh and it [TS]

  also has the other things I like like [TS]

  minimal branding like so many of these [TS]

  bikes have just the giant names all over [TS]

  the place and it's just ugly ascend so [TS]

  you know stuff like that like they do [TS]

  some pretty good work so the way you [TS]

  feel about sand bike tires is the way I [TS]

  feel about tires that are the width of [TS]

  this thing like a dude that I feel like [TS]

  it's just a huge amount of unnecessary [TS]

  friction as soon as I stop pedaling like [TS]

  we're all these tyres slowing me down [TS]

  like regenerative braking they actually [TS]

  had the model II actually is one of them [TS]

  were interesting the e bikes have ever [TS]

  seen to it it's all in the rear hub like [TS]

  there's no battery on the frame or [TS]

  anything like it's just all it's just a [TS]

  rear hub that happens to include like a [TS]

  radial battery around the center and [TS]

  there are things you see the thing you [TS]

  can add to it just any bike and just [TS]

  slap it on the wheel is lots of clever [TS]

  yeah the Helvetica one was I called [TS]

  because a bunch of them see something [TS]

  wheel anyway that I thought that was [TS]

  hideous the thing you could just add any [TS]

  of them yeah well but no again like if I [TS]

  get an e bike it would definitely be for [TS]

  home not for here because that's the [TS]

  place where like there are giant Hills [TS]

  in my neighborhood and one of the [TS]

  reasons I have not gotten a bike yet at [TS]

  home is that I assumed there's no [TS]

  there's no way to recently ride a bike [TS]

  in my neighborhood because there's so [TS]

  many hills there is come on I should [TS]

  show you I I don't think any Hill in [TS]

  your neighborhood is as big as I went up [TS]

  in a bike with no gears couldn't change [TS]

  gears down to first gear to get up the [TS]

  hill [TS]

  but you had one gear in the Mongoose and [TS]

  that was it and I powered my way up [TS]

  those cells all the time because that's [TS]

  how you got to your friends there's one [TS]

  gear both ways there's more dangerous [TS]

  goin down the hills they have topology [TS]

  and Google Maps [TS]

  sometimes it's weird [TS]

  let's see if I can find nothing is like [TS]

  like as as my kid gets into biking I [TS]

  suspect that a good thing to do will be [TS]

  for me to go with him biking even at [TS]

  home year-round so like to have [TS]

  something at home that could do that [TS]

  pretty well is probably a good idea no [TS]

  no no no topology way to go 3d 3d that's [TS]

  not very 3d the hell this road is flat [TS]

  this road is not flat every time I see a [TS]

  mongoose around town I think of you John [TS]

  know it's a different company now and [TS]

  they actually have what seems like a [TS]

  fairly a popular fat tire bike - and I'm [TS]

  not talking about you know the blood [TS]

  mist I'm talking about you know like the [TS]

  sand bike size tires the I see there's a [TS]

  lot like a lot of the sand bikes around [TS]

  town or the ones that are kind of there [TS]

  seems to be a class of bike around here [TS]

  that had its they're not quite wide [TS]

  enough or not knobby enough to be sand [TS]

  tires but they're just radicular it's [TS]

  like flat rubber tires on bikes that [TS]

  look like they might have cost two [TS]

  dollars out of the Walmart discount bin [TS]

  it's very very strange but I kind of [TS]

  want to ride one looks like a lot of fun [TS]

  I'm looking at these roads and Google [TS]

  Maps and I see that but the people did [TS]

  these terrible people did to my [TS]

  childhood home like I've seen from the [TS]

  air they cut down all the trees to put [TS]

  this hideous swimming pool like taking [TS]

  up the entire backyard giant hideous [TS]

  liver the whole backyard is paved over [TS]

  with this terrible swimming pool in it [TS]

  you know that should be your retirement [TS]

  plan buy back your old house and fix it [TS]

  it's not that it's not that great of a [TS]

  house and you can't I can't replace all [TS]

  the trees they cut down so many trees so [TS]

  many big full-grown trees they still [TS]

  having them in the back but just they [TS]

  cut down so many trees oh you can I mean [TS]

  if you save enough money you totally can [TS]

  buy full-grown trees I know because [TS]

  there's a the the guy Shaw there's some [TS]

  some guy named Shaw who like invented [TS]

  the hedge fund or something and he's [TS]

  building a large house down you know [TS]

  basically at the edge of my neighborhood [