The Accidental Tech Podcast

243: Knew About the Dollar Signs


  did you try that translation menu bar [TS]

  thing by the way that I pasted no [TS]

  because I guess you have to don't get [TS]

  the like kill system UI server to make [TS]

  it take effect something like that yeah [TS]

  please don't do that while podcasting [TS]

  all of the years I've come to the [TS]

  conclusion and I think I first heard [TS]

  this from Dan Benjamin and I think Tim [TS]

  for me he was right about this that it [TS]

  is it is a happier experience for you [TS]

  whoever you is if you customized or if [TS]

  you insist on as few customizations to [TS]

  vanilla mac OS or iOS as possible [TS]

  obviously every one of us myself [TS]

  included has plenty of customizations [TS]

  that that that you consider critical to [TS]

  me on a new installation of Mac OS and [TS]

  and same with iOS but I try to choose [TS]

  wisely and I try to choose things that [TS]

  usually just amount to installing like [TS]

  an app or something like that and this [TS]

  is no I mean it's a defaults right like [TS]

  I understand what it is it's not hard to [TS]

  do it's something I am perfectly capable [TS]

  of doing but the fact that I didn't even [TS]

  notice that the darn menu bar was [TS]

  translucent until you said something [TS]

  means you know what it's probably just [TS]

  not worth it to worry about it and I'm [TS]

  okay with that I disagree with that [TS]

  philosophy I understand it like maybe if [TS]

  you're Hotelling in a world where you [TS]

  you have to use other people's generic [TS]

  computers all the time that you don't [TS]

  want to customize but I'm I'm in the [TS]

  opposite camp I'm not gonna live with [TS]

  some minor annoyance for years and years [TS]

  just because it's like oh if I happen to [TS]

  find myself a stranger's computer that's [TS]

  the default setup I'll be able to do it [TS]

  if I get a new computer I'll just be [TS]

  able to use that that's not true B's [TS]

  migration system has been great for so [TS]

  many years some people always asked me [TS]

  do you do a clean install or do you [TS]

  upgrade install I upgrade install I've [TS]

  been upgrading installed for ever and [TS]

  apples upgrading stalls have [TS]

  historically both on classic Mac OS and [TS]

  on OS 10 and Mac OS or the hell it's [TS]

  called now have been really good about [TS]

  keeping all your crappy yes that's why I [TS]

  have like a resource fork based [TS]

  preference file sitting in my library [TS]

  folder on my Mac but it just keeps your [TS]

  settings like that's why you know if I [TS]

  ever do set up a new Mac I'm faced with [TS]

  like how did I set this up because it's [TS]

  a setting that I changed I ran a default [TS]

  write command like in Panther right and [TS]

  it's it's still carrying over right [TS]

  because the plist file is there it's [TS]

  just that's what I want it like it's [TS]

  such a you get such bang for your buck [TS]

  out of it if you just keep doing upgrade [TS]

  installs because it'll just carry [TS]

  everything over and it's perfectly fine [TS]

  it's not like Windows you have to wipe [TS]

  out your computer don't be afraid of the [TS]

  upgrade install embrace it and there are [TS]

  lots of cool products out there cool to [TS]

  varying degrees that will it will script [TS]

  your like so you got a new Mac this [TS]

  thing will apply all your settings but I [TS]

  felt like all of them I've looked into a [TS]

  lot of them some of them are based on [TS]

  puppet which is a little bit scary buff [TS]

  it's a little bit wonky but Google uses [TS]

  one based on puppet I think but there's [TS]

  all sorts of solutions like that even [TS]

  just some people have a giant like shell [TS]

  script that they run that does a bunch [TS]

  of things but you don't need any of that [TS]

  if you just do upgrade installs so don't [TS]

  be afraid to customize your computer it [TS]

  is a good idea to keep a text file [TS]

  around to just remind you what the [TS]

  customizations are which is what I did [TS]

  when I got my new Mac at work because I [TS]

  wasn't upgrade installing from anything [TS]

  right but for your home computers you [TS]

  don't have that problem you can use [TS]

  migration assistant connected with [TS]

  Ethernet Wi-Fi firewire I recommend [TS]

  using the fastest connection possible to [TS]

  bring all your crap over from your old [TS]

  computer to your new one yeah I kind of [TS]

  use both extremes on I hardly ever [TS]

  upgrade my desktop like both hardware [TS]

  and software wise and when I do update [TS]

  to the newest OS on my desktop or get a [TS]

  new desktop I always do upgrade installs [TS]

  or migrations it's fine [TS]

  however on my laptops which I'm buying [TS]

  at increasing frequencies I almost [TS]

  always do clean installs because it's [TS]

  like my secondary system usually I am [TS]

  less careful with what I install on it [TS]

  like why like when I installed that [TS]

  collection of trucks I am usually more [TS]

  willing to experiment on it so for [TS]

  instance right now my laptop has high [TS]

  sierra on it my desktop is not so my [TS]

  laptop I'm always doing clean installs [TS]

  my laptops I guess I should say and my [TS]

  desktop I always upgrade I've been [TS]

  carrying over the same installation my [TS]

  desktop for a long time now I think in [TS]

  my entire time using Mac's since 2004 I [TS]

  think I've done to clean installs on my [TS]

  desktop or maybe one it's it's a small [TS]

  number and everything else was he just [TS]

  upgrades and [TS]

  and totally fine you know like John I [TS]

  probably have a lot of clutter I thought [TS]

  I could get rid of but it's also just [TS]

  you know I have so many things set up [TS]

  just the way I like them and so many [TS]

  little details here and there and I can [TS]

  tell because when I go use a cleanly [TS]

  installed laptop that I have purchased [TS]

  you know for this quarter I can always [TS]

  tell like oh wow this thing doesn't work [TS]

  right or this is kind of not quite there [TS]

  oh I wish I had this thing here that I [TS]

  have my desktop set up so there are [TS]

  benefits of both but certainly like you [TS]

  know the old if you're like me and you [TS]

  came from the windows world where like [TS]

  it was basically a horrible idea to ever [TS]

  upgrade like you should in the windows [TS]

  world when I was in it you should only [TS]

  ever have done clean installs and even [TS]

  and even when you weren't changing [TS]

  Windows versions you should probably do [TS]

  a clean install of your OS like every [TS]

  six months which I did and because we [TS]

  hose is so bad at least it was I don't [TS]

  know I don't know if this one is any [TS]

  better I haven't honestly many windows [TS]

  user and literally you know 10 12 years [TS]

  now at least so it might be better now [TS]

  although one thing Windows doesn't do [TS]

  very well is change so let's see I'm [TS]

  sure in the feedback with that but well [TS]

  yeah so I've seen both and I would say [TS]

  on a Mac you don't need to do clean [TS]

  installs for the most part almost any [TS]

  time ever I only do my laptops more as a [TS]

  curiosity and you know cleanliness thing [TS]

  and experimentation [TS]

  you guys should run LS minus TL tilde [TS]

  slash library slash preferences just [TS]

  find the oldest item in like your [TS]

  library Preferences folder I was giving [TS]

  you a way to do it 2011 for me what was [TS]

  your last item jay-z today so the last [TS]

  item must December 31st 1969 January 18 [TS]

  of 2016 which is when I got the computer [TS]

  so I yeah that matches my recollection [TS]

  which is that this was a cleaner and [TS]

  what it Marco what is your last item [TS]

  that what it actually is it one [TS]

  preference it's a whole bunch of lock [TS]

  files peelers lock files oh great yeah [TS]

  those are great [TS]

  when left over from programs that [TS]

  crashed while they were in the middle of [TS]

  locking something and nothing ever [TS]

  cleaned up the black files yeah and I [TS]

  just you know it's all like you know the [TS]

  calms that Apple and bezel surfaces app [TS]

  store address book stuff like that yeah [TS]

  so I must have done a good job cleaning [TS]

  out the resource-based ones of a bb-8 [TS]

  probably still has ones but I moved a [TS]

  lot of uveitis stuff to Dropbox so it's [TS]

  synced between machines that's another [TS]

  preference hack by the way if program [TS]

  supported you can similar things into [TS]

  Dropbox and then your preferences will [TS]

  be the same everywhere you install [TS]

  Dropbox but anyway my bottom item is [TS]

  from 2003 Adobe registration database [TS]

  I've also got an air folder an Aladdin [TS]

  folder and comm dot and Burgess w dot [TS]

  even over that P list lots of good stuff [TS]

  there 2003 and I think I must have gone [TS]

  through and cleaned out a bunch of stuff [TS]

  before this so that's that's how the [TS]

  very least that's how long I've been [TS]

  doing upgrade installs that have carried [TS]

  over to this exact computer in the early [TS]

  days of Mac OS 10 things were a little [TS]

  sketchier so I probably lost a bunch of [TS]

  my folders at various points 2004-2005 [TS]

  if I screw up 2006 every year is [TS]

  represented does never go away so we [TS]

  should start with follow up and we have [TS]

  some follow up with regard to the Google [TS]

  pixel and we had a handful people write [TS]

  in various degrees of anger mostly just [TS]

  emails about how we how we didn't really [TS]

  give Google enough credit and this [TS]

  happens every time we talk about Google [TS]

  and I think some of it is justified like [TS]

  I said I mean it's not unreasonable for [TS]

  someone to say hey you know we don't [TS]

  know Google in and out like we at least [TS]

  think we know Apple but uh one of the [TS]

  things that we had said and I think it [TS]

  was me especially the head said was that [TS]

  I thought it was kind of bogus that my [TS]

  buddy at work could pre-order his or [TS]

  maybe just straight-up order his Google [TS]

  pixel to excel maybe whatever it was [TS]

  without he ordered ordered it yeah [TS]

  exactly which by the way whatever joke [TS]

  he made to what was it you said pixel to [TS]

  ten or something like 10 L yeah that [TS]

  joke was much better than I gave you [TS]

  credit for because it flew right over my [TS]

  head when it happens right so I'd like [TS]

  to publicly acknowledge that I missed it [TS]

  on the last episode anyway I was [TS]

  lamenting that it's it's it's a bummer [TS]

  that I have to wake up 3:00 in the [TS]

  morning to give Apple a whole shitload [TS]

  of my money which of course I don't have [TS]

  to do but that's what I need to do if I [TS]

  want to get it in a timely fashion [TS]

  because I'm [TS]

  and entitled materialistic American so [TS]

  huns Hauer [TS]

  I hope I pronounced that right I asked [TS]

  for help I hope I got that right wrote [TS]

  in to say you know Apple watches the [TS]

  iPhone 8 in more than 25 countries and [TS]

  will add dozens more this year the old [TS]

  pixel the original pixel so a year ago [TS]

  pixel is still only available in six [TS]

  countries which I thought was a really [TS]

  interesting point so here it is I'm [TS]

  beatin up on Apple for not really doing [TS]

  the pre-order the way I wanted it at the [TS]

  time I wanted it but you know this is a [TS]

  really good point that Apple is shipping [TS]

  to way more places and presumably [TS]

  shipping far more phones then Google is [TS]

  and that that comes with it some penalty [TS]

  if for lack of a better word and that [TS]

  it's just harder to do yeah and I mean [TS]

  that also even restricts like what kind [TS]

  of component choices and manufacturing [TS]

  methods that Apple and materials that [TS]

  Apple can even use in the iPhone like [TS]

  Apple just makes so many more iPhones [TS]

  than pretty much anything else in the [TS]

  computer and electronic world that it's [TS]

  it's hard to even fathom like the the [TS]

  realities of how they need to do this [TS]

  and the restrictions it puts on them [TS]

  like like that remember like there was a [TS]

  there was a brief rumor before last [TS]

  year's phone that they were going to [TS]

  make one out of ceramic and people a few [TS]

  people with knowledge of that business [TS]

  basically said like there isn't enough [TS]

  ceramic making capacity in the world to [TS]

  satisfy like like they'd like even if [TS]

  they bought like every machine that [TS]

  exists to do this in the world it [TS]

  wouldn't be enough capacity and and so [TS]

  like you know what Apple has to do it at [TS]

  their scale is so unlike what most [TS]

  companies have to worry about that [TS]

  because you know not only do they have [TS]

  to make a lot of them but they have to [TS]

  make a lot of them quickly and all over [TS]

  the world like this is not easy and so [TS]

  like it's it's almost impossible to [TS]

  compare anything else to what Apple does [TS]

  with the iPhone but anyway you know the [TS]

  the the feedback we got about about [TS]

  mostly my dismissing remarks about the [TS]

  Google pixel because my position [TS]

  basically was like it's interesting and [TS]

  every you know every time a Google phone [TS]

  comes out all the reviewers say wow this [TS]

  is really great [TS]

  and then they just abandon it like two [TS]

  weeks later for the next Samsung thing [TS]

  or it could they go back to their [TS]

  iPhones if they were iPhone people most [TS]

  of the feedback we got didn't really [TS]

  contradict that it was more like you're [TS]

  wrong because I like it and that's fine [TS]

  I'm not saying that nobody likes the [TS]

  pixel but that it's not a that the [TS]

  Google phones are not mass-market [TS]

  devices and I and I hope some day they [TS]

  will become mass-market devices because [TS]

  as I said last episode when Apple has [TS]

  really good competition Apple does [TS]

  better and even though I don't have any [TS]

  interest in switching to Android I want [TS]

  there to be amazing Android phones that [TS]

  keep pushing Apple to make the phones I [TS]

  use better button the Google pixel and [TS]

  former Nexus series they just don't sell [TS]

  in enough volume to really make Apple [TS]

  have to worry about really anything so I [TS]

  again I hope that changes over time but [TS]

  that is still the reality yeah I would [TS]

  agree with that also in the Google camp [TS]

  Josh Lampkin writes and he wrote an [TS]

  email describing kind of the repair [TS]

  process because I think he took issue [TS]

  with the fact that one of the things [TS]

  that it might have been Marco but one of [TS]

  us said it was that hey you know Apple [TS]

  has all this retail presence and Google [TS]

  doesn't have that and that's an [TS]

  advantage for Apple which you know as [TS]

  much as we all love mint the time it [TS]

  takes to the Genius Bar appointment I [TS]

  still stand by what Marco said but Josh [TS]

  writes in and said in summary that if he [TS]

  needs to get a repair done on his pixel [TS]

  phone the repair is an overnighted [TS]

  replacement unit with a box for your [TS]

  existing phone and it's all done online [TS]

  and he said I usually have my [TS]

  replacement Android device before my [TS]

  usual geek bar appointment would be so [TS]

  in other words if he has a problem he I [TS]

  guess on the phone if possible and if [TS]

  not on the web he goes and reports an [TS]

  issue and ends up talking like live [TS]

  chatting with a Google representative [TS]

  and if they confirm that it's a [TS]

  legitimate problem they will overnight [TS]

  him a new phones or presumably a [TS]

  refurbished phone so it'll be there the [TS]

  following day and and he takes that box [TS]

  puts his existing phone in it ships it [TS]

  back and that's it job done and you know [TS]

  what that sounds pretty fricking great [TS]

  to me it's not as quick is you know [TS]

  going into the Apple store and getting a [TS]

  screen replaced in the span of two hours [TS]

  but that's pretty good for a company [TS]

  that has pretty much zero retail [TS]

  presence yeah gotta give him credit that [TS]

  is a good setup [TS]

  I still think Apple is way ahead of them [TS]

  on so many levels by having physical [TS]

  stores but that is better than I [TS]

  expected legal process to be because in [TS]

  in the past not even that distant past [TS]

  dealing with them for any kind of [TS]

  directly purchased a tronic device was a [TS]

  nightmare yeah as when I add that like [TS]

  an old man playing World of Warcraft on [TS]

  an iMac in a Panera Bread I'm nothing to [TS]

  apologize for [TS]

  not make this unfounded disparaging [TS]

  remarks about Google because the only [TS]

  thing that I would have added that [TS]

  conversation about Google if I had [TS]

  anything to add which I always I didn't [TS]

  feel like I did was my impression of the [TS]

  Nexus line and this was echoed by a [TS]

  couple of people who said feedback was [TS]

  like I don't know if Google is not [TS]

  trying to make a mass-market phone or [TS]

  this is just their excuse but it was [TS]

  always like this is what you could do [TS]

  with our operating system if you made a [TS]

  cool phone now everybody else who uses [TS]

  our operating system go make cool phones [TS]

  like this it's like it's like the [TS]

  exemplars out a whole bunch them that's [TS]

  why is only for sale in six countries [TS]

  it's just kind of like showing the way [TS]

  to other people kinda like reference [TS]

  designs from video card makers or [TS]

  whatever maybe not quite the same thing [TS]

  because they're not just giving that [TS]

  design to other people but I don't know [TS]

  if that's actually true or if that's [TS]

  just something they say when they don't [TS]

  sell a lot of them but yeah indeed so I [TS]

  feel like I need a moment to get [TS]

  something off my chest and that's [TS]

  something that something relates to you [TS]

  guessed it Cellular Apple watch service [TS]

  fees [TS]

  oh yes it does we're giving more time to [TS]

  this we are giving more time to this you [TS]

  know why that they even charge him tax [TS]

  and additional fees oh yeah I heard [TS]

  about this that's that is the executive [TS]

  that is that is the executive summary [TS]

  but I have received my first bill since [TS]

  I have activated my cellular Apple watch [TS]

  my $10 a month service which I knew [TS]

  would not be ten but I was hoping [TS]

  ignorant Lee and naively so I was hoping [TS]

  would be not too much more than ten [TS]

  dollars a month would you - if you've [TS]

  not already clicked the link in the show [TS]

  notes would you like to guess how much [TS]

  my $10 a month sir [TS]

  this is it like 12 or 13 $17 John did [TS]

  you look at the show notes because it [TS]

  did not $17.40 so the the monthly plan [TS]

  charges is $10 and I will put a link to [TS]

  I will put an image in the show in the [TS]

  show notes way up is there a convenience [TS]

  fee like when you buy tickets online the [TS]

  breakdown is very quickly $10 for the [TS]

  watch administrative fee 76 cents [TS]

  federal Universal Service charge two [TS]

  dollars and 42 cents regular Tori cost [TS]

  recovery charge one dollar and 25 cents [TS]

  and Virginia equipment tax recoupment [TS]

  seven cents II don't like photo and then [TS]

  not to mention the government taxes and [TS]

  fees well I think that is everything I [TS]

  think that the federal Universal Service [TS]

  charge is that the two dollars and forty [TS]

  two what about the different taxes in a [TS]

  fee is the 290 VA Virginia Wireless 9 1 [TS]

  1 and Wadena communication sales tax oh [TS]

  I didn't scroll down my mistake [TS]

  I didn't scroll down on my own image my [TS]

  mistake yes you're exactly right two [TS]

  dollars and ninety cents of which 75 [TS]

  cents is Virginia t91 and two dollars [TS]

  and 15 cents is Virginia communication [TS]

  sales tax my mistake [TS]

  yeah so you actually are 1740s Wow there [TS]

  you go what kind of tiny size do you [TS]

  have your web browser window that you [TS]

  had to scroll to see the bottom of this [TS]

  image this is the real question as your [TS]

  web browser like a tiny slit like the [TS]

  window on a no because all right well [TS]

  now now we're gonna have to go down this [TS]

  a glimpse into Casey's life it all his [TS]

  web browser the windows are one inch [TS]

  tall I'm sure you want to talk about [TS]

  crazy windows setup so as I'm saying [TS]

  minor minor proportion like sheets of [TS]

  paper because that's the same proportion [TS]

  of her web browser window so only when I [TS]

  record this show only when I record this [TS]

  show so I have four panes on my single [TS]

  virtual desktop so I don't really bother [TS]

  with my spaces as I usually do when I'm [TS]

  typically using the computer in the [TS]

  upper left hand corner Skype in the [TS]

  upper in the upper right hand corner [TS]

  taking up approximately a quarter of the [TS]

  screen as my web browser and the bottom [TS]

  which by the way is Chrome only because [TS]

  I use Google Docs here generally [TS]

  speaking I never touch Chrome the bottom [TS]

  right hand corner is Visual Studio code [TS]

  to work on the show notes and the bottom [TS]

  left hand corner is [TS]

  colloquy which is how I get on the [TS]

  chatroom so it is effectively divided [TS]

  into four quarter [TS]

  and the in this is on my 5k iMac and so [TS]

  this particular window was about a [TS]

  quarter of the screen and it was just [TS]

  not barely not enough to see that last [TS]

  section this is an incredibly [TS]

  inefficient use of space you're using [TS]

  you're using Windows wrong oh I love [TS]

  that call recorder jammed [TS]

  yeah that's it's actually kind of [TS]

  perfect but no this is an incredibly [TS]

  poor use of space like first of all like [TS]

  things overlapping when I'm recording [TS]

  the sidebar on the Kaku and oh come on [TS]

  yeah you don't need to go that big you [TS]

  don't need colloquy to be anywhere near [TS]

  that big window is as small as I can [TS]

  possibly make it I wish I could make it [TS]

  smaller but you know Skype being Skype [TS]

  it has like nope you could never make it [TS]

  a reasonable size the small as it ever [TS]

  gets [TS]

  yeah and and your your text editor [TS]

  window like that's a terrible aspect [TS]

  ratio for writing notes like I would [TS]

  like the the portrait orientation sheet [TS]

  of paper aspect ratio is way better for [TS]

  text editors I love all the white spaces [TS]

  browser windows are the huge margin is [TS]

  left and right but it cuts off another [TS]

  thing anyway stop stop tiling your [TS]

  windows that's amazing this is only for [TS]

  when I record you picture how many how [TS]

  many S's do you have in your in your [TS]

  menu bar there I'm like alright so you [TS]

  got a lot of icons why are the 3 s's 4 4 [TS]

  s is one of them is way over on the [TS]

  right now it's it's even worse it see [TS]

  mr. dollar signs are they I can't you [TS]

  really break it in the dough there in [TS]

  your menu bar you got three dollar signs [TS]

  wait does that does that mean your menu [TS]

  bar is expensive like on Yelp no they're [TS]

  hiding do you want to know what it is [TS]

  what's a little pinwheel next to Dropbox [TS]

  hold on one step at a time [TS]

  all right the s have Siri enabled at all [TS]

  but it's all the way over there are the [TS]

  love of God people my menu bar is a [TS]

  disaster I'll be the first to admit it I [TS]

  will be the first to admit it [TS]

  the dollar signs are because I have [TS]

  installed the most recent version of as [TS]

  I step menus but apparently did never [TS]

  entered my registration and so it is [TS]

  then said give me money [TS]

  apparently how long has that been now I [TS]

  don't know for maybe a few days maybe [TS]

  all the benefit you're getting from I [TS]

  statin menus I need to keep an eye on my [TS]

  dollar signs who's saying that oh my god [TS]

  who's saying that I'm drawing a blank [TS]

  Snoop Dogg gettin juice I don't recall [TS]

  you're probably right [TS]

  I just put my updated menu bar in the [TS]

  robot and I'm sorry live listeners it is [TS]

  it I will be the first to tell you it is [TS]

  not good it's not good and and it is it [TS]

  is just plain not good and I am [TS]

  embarrassed by it especially because I'm [TS]

  a devout as few things in the menu bars [TS]

  I can get a Serio to the menu bar I need [TS]

  to do that fuzzy clock come on oh can I [TS]

  get Siri out of the menu bar I gotta do [TS]

  yes you have a translucent menu bar - no [TS]

  I do I do you definitely do [TS]

  that's God that cannot that cannot be I [TS]

  didn't even know that was still a future [TS]

  let's let's play a new game like what [TS]

  won't Casey notice about his computer I [TS]

  did know I did know about the dollar [TS]

  signs is my menu bar I was going through [TS]

  I was going through my like a file full [TS]

  of like plist hack commands for [TS]

  undocumented stuff like turn off window [TS]

  animations and I saw the one about the [TS]

  translucent menu bar I'm like oh I'm [TS]

  glad that feature isn't in my quest [TS]

  anymore I wanna say thought it wasn't [TS]

  there anymore but apparently it is and [TS]

  just like my my pilla setting has been [TS]

  surviving multiple OS updates or maybe [TS]

  it's a checkbox now I think it says it [TS]

  in the display panel well figure I'll [TS]

  figure it out I'll do some real-time [TS]

  follow up in three hours when I finally [TS]

  figure out where the hell it is [TS]

  oh wow that's all right so anyway so [TS]

  it's the fight suffice it to say never [TS]

  ever ever talk about your setup with [TS]

  these two numbskulls not smart my word I [TS]

  can't find this this is driving me [TS]

  bananas where is it you might have to do [TS]

  that you might have to do the default [TS]

  right whatever [TS]

  thing so in summary I pay too much for [TS]

  my Apple watch and it makes me sad yeah [TS]

  I I agree so I was totally railing [TS]

  against you that you know complaining [TS]

  about $10 a month to the degree that you [TS]

  complained about it was unnecessary [TS]

  however it was still like that's I I [TS]

  still agree that that is a little more [TS]

  than what it should cost I just didn't [TS]

  think it was worth complaining as much [TS]

  as you did and you know not getting it [TS]

  as a result however $17 a month really [TS]

  which is what this really is that's a [TS]

  different story that's really pushing it [TS]

  like it is not worth that for almost [TS]

  anybody which is unfortunate but that's [TS]

  I don't know like because so it's [TS]

  basically being treated as a separate [TS]

  line by the by like that the the [TS]

  cellular bills you know taxing and [TS]

  regulation system and I don't know if [TS]

  it's possibly because because you have [TS]

  numbersync even though the watch does [TS]

  technically have its own number it's the [TS]

  same way like my iPad has its own phone [TS]

  number assigned to it when I activated [TS]

  it with cellular but you can't call it [TS]

  you can't do anything with that phone [TS]

  number it's just like an implementation [TS]

  detail of something having a cellular [TS]

  service but it's it shouldn't be treated [TS]

  the same way as like a regular phone [TS]

  line is and so maybe the watch is being [TS]

  misclassified maybe it's temporary [TS]

  I don't know but that's messed up like [TS]

  to have to for a $10 fee to have another [TS]

  seven dollars in taxes and BS on top of [TS]

  that that's yes yeah and by the way [TS]

  quick not real-time follow-up but quick [TS]

  follow-up I found on my AT&T bill that [TS]

  there is to your point Marco an actual [TS]

  phone number listed there and it [TS]

  occurred to me like that I could call [TS]

  that number and I feel like I had heard [TS]

  on a podcast somewhere maybe it was Mike [TS]

  somebody had talked about this and so I [TS]

  turned off Bluetooth on my phone and [TS]

  then used my cell phone to dial my Apple [TS]

  watch and once it you know once I [TS]

  realized the phone wasn't there and it [TS]

  fell back onto cellular sure enough I [TS]

  could dial this unique number that's [TS]

  unique to my Apple watch and it rang no [TS]

  problem which is exactly what I expected [TS]

  but it's kind of funky like it [TS]

  makes sense I'm not saying it's right [TS]

  bad or wrong or anything but it's got a [TS]

  weird and kind of funny that that it [TS]

  that it worked that way [TS]

  no that is bad and wrong that means it's [TS]

  gonna get robo calls Oh interesting it [TS]

  very well may yeah yeah now but but but [TS]

  on the plus side the only way that would [TS]

  happen is if it actually has a cellular [TS]

  radio on which only happens when it's [TS]

  away from the phone which for me only [TS]

  happens once or twice a day if you can [TS]

  get robo calls during the time and you [TS]

  really want to be like focused on your [TS]

  exercise or whatever else or focus on [TS]

  your kid in the that's perfect [TS]

  it's flawless we are sponsored this week [TS]

  by fracture printing your photos [TS]

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  so once again fracture slash [TS]

  podcast thank you so much to fracture [TS]

  for sponsoring our show [TS]

  so hopefully cheer me up one of you and [TS]

  tell me about Sonos which I don't care [TS]

  about in Google assistant which I also [TS]

  don't care about we missed this last [TS]

  week when we talked about it oh so Imus [TS]

  integrating with Amazon and what was the [TS]

  deal with them you're doing the Alexa [TS]

  stuff so notice is trying to apparently [TS]

  trying to be the hardware platform that [TS]

  is host to anybody who has a software [TS]

  thing that you can talk to so Google [TS]

  assistant there's another software thing [TS]

  you can talk to and Sonos is apparently [TS]

  integrating with them I'm not quite sure [TS]

  how it works you bias honest thing do [TS]

  you get to say do you want to talk to [TS]

  the Amazon personal assistant Voice [TS]

  thingy or do you want to talk to the [TS]

  Google one or do you pick when you buy [TS]

  it like an old Verizon iPhone versus 18t [TS]

  an iPhone thing don't know the details [TS]

  but this this kind of changes doesn't [TS]

  change but like I'm trying to get some [TS]

  new perspective on Sonos and the [TS]

  combination of Amazon and who's coming [TS]

  out ahead in this deal and what the [TS]

  strategies are and there's two parts [TS]

  this one is that the some of the people [TS]

  with voice assistance certainly Amazon [TS]

  but maybe also Google will see seem to [TS]

  be initially pursuing the tragedy of we [TS]

  want our voice thing everywhere is [TS]

  apparently available on an anchor [TS]

  product to a and keer the people who [TS]

  make like the chargers and stuff and [TS]

  various times Amazon has talked about [TS]

  spreading their voice thingy everywhere [TS]

  if you have a thing that with [TS]

  microphones that you can talk to and you [TS]

  want to do a business deal with them [TS]

  they'll connect it up to Amazon because [TS]

  now you can or paper towels through your [TS]

  whatever because you talk to it right so [TS]

  that's one way you can go it's kind of [TS]

  like the the windows everywhere strategy [TS]

  of you know we you know just think of [TS]

  Amazon for the most part with its where [TS]

  can i watch amazon video most [TS]

  televisions you buy will have it built [TS]

  in just like netflix most boxes you buy [TS]

  will have it built in except for apples [TS]

  because of a grudge match thing going on [TS]

  there and they'll put their voice [TS]

  assistant aren't hardware products that [TS]

  are not made by them whether it's some [TS]

  notes or anchor or probably anybody else [TS]

  who will do whatever deal yeah I think [TS]

  their ideal future is wherever you are [TS]

  the entire [TS]

  you can just yell out the name of that [TS]

  voice assistant that I'm trying to avoid [TS]

  saying and order paper towels and it'll [TS]

  you know figure out who you are and [TS]

  seventy bees that you know easy ways to [TS]

  send Amazon your money it's great right [TS]

  and Google assistant being on so knows I [TS]

  don't know if Google is spreading its [TS]

  assistant far and wide but being on [TS]

  summits as well it's only okay well [TS]

  we're not going to say if you want to [TS]

  talk to the Google assistant you have to [TS]

  buy an Android phone or Google home you [TS]

  can talk to the Google assistant through [TS]

  your summer speaker at the very least [TS]

  and possibly other places as well and on [TS]

  the other side of that if you're so [TS]

  knows their strategy seems to be like we [TS]

  make great hardware and we have you know [TS]

  the wireless communication stuff and an [TS]

  iOS app or whatever to do multi-room [TS]

  audio and all the stuff that we do we [TS]

  don't do an assistant but we're not [TS]

  going to tell you which assistant you [TS]

  have to use we're not gonna say we [TS]

  believe the one only true assistant is [TS]

  the Amazon one and that's it that's like [TS]

  if you have an assistant that you want [TS]

  to talk you through our speaker let's do [TS]

  a deal and I guess they'll let the [TS]

  customers decide and when I think of you [TS]

  know if if the Amazon strategy is Alexa [TS]

  everywhere well I think of the son of [TS]

  strategy I feel like are you trying to [TS]

  be the hardware makers in the PC age [TS]

  where Windows is everywhere and then [TS]

  Microsoft doesn't really care who is [TS]

  licensing windows for their hardware [TS]

  just let the hardware people fight it [TS]

  out and then you'll just be marginalized [TS]

  and be fighting over a razor certain [TS]

  margins against everyone else who makes [TS]

  a speaker that has Amazon or Google [TS]

  assistant integrated the difference here [TS]

  of course is that no voice assistant is [TS]

  as dominant as Windows was if that [TS]

  changes then yeah the hardware people [TS]

  are in a bad position because I feel [TS]

  like most of the value isn't the thing [TS]

  that you talk to especially if the thing [TS]

  that you talk to buys you things from [TS]

  like the store one of the people runs [TS]

  and then way off to the side less than [TS]

  you wouldn't forget is Apple who doesn't [TS]

  really have an Amazon video TV app still [TS]

  right we're still waiting for that I [TS]

  keep yep right so Amazon is kind of [TS]

  being mean to them about that because [TS]

  they're everywhere else they have a [TS]

  speaker thingy but it hasn't even [TS]

  shipped yet when it does ship you can be [TS]

  sure that it will not support Google [TS]

  assistant or am [TS]

  you know voice stuff right and so far it [TS]

  doesn't seem like a Kapil is all about [TS]

  putting Syria everywhere well my next [TS]

  television has Siri built-in can i buy [TS]

  an anchor puck for $35 at a Siri [TS]

  built-in I'm thinking No [TS]

  so some very different strategies in the [TS]

  early age of cylinders that you talk to [TS]

  and to wrap all this up our friend [TS]

  Steven Hackett had a nice post about his [TS]

  smart speaker conundrum and I think it [TS]

  is similar to a lot of tech nerd people [TS]

  who may have man manners they may have [TS]

  gone in too deep with like too much [TS]

  different stuff like well my lightbulbs [TS]

  speak this but I like Apple stuff but I [TS]

  subscribe to google play music but I [TS]

  have you know it gets very confusing [TS]

  very fast the short blog post you should [TS]

  read it but just to get an idea of the [TS]

  choices that you have to make about what [TS]

  sort of Internet of Things hardware [TS]

  products you buy what software services [TS]

  you pay for and can they all talk to [TS]

  each other and work together and how you [TS]

  figure out how to make your next [TS]

  purchase do I continue to go down the [TS]

  road that I was going down before with a [TS]

  bunch of Amazon things do I ditch [TS]

  everything and go to an all Apple world [TS]

  but what about the Sonos even Marco [TS]

  who's mostly dedicated the a my own [TS]

  thing is kind of in that situation [TS]

  because you were saying you know do I [TS]

  have to buy a Samus thing or maybe if [TS]

  the so most will just by existing echo [TS]

  products will talk to my existing Sonos [TS]

  what do I do or do I switch over to be [TS]

  completely someone else and get rid of [TS]

  the echos because why do I need them if [TS]

  this oness all have smarter of things in [TS]

  them but can the Sonos thing talk to my [TS]

  light bulbs I don't know I'm kind of [TS]

  glad I'm I'm out of this market for the [TS]

  most part other than having a cylinder [TS]

  that I can talk to but it doesn't things [TS]

  don't look smooth over there this is all [TS]

  I could say yeah I mean this is and [TS]

  first of all some quick follow-up well [TS]

  some half follow-up last episode I had I [TS]

  had questioned whether it was possible [TS]

  to just set up your Amazon echo devices [TS]

  to talk to existing Sonos devices [TS]

  without having the news owners one the [TS]

  answer is yes that I set it up tonight [TS]

  however I didn't actually test it out [TS]

  because I was too busy playing start to [TS]

  valley all night but I will add two you [TS]

  know to this discussion that [TS]

  for just general like kind of buying [TS]

  advice or you know guiding people for [TS]

  what to do why all this stuff is getting [TS]

  all crazy like this as much as possible [TS]

  get things that speak multiple languages [TS]

  basically like you know the like the [TS]

  Sonos if so knows ends up really pulling [TS]

  this off in a big way like if they [TS]

  really do have airplay to support which [TS]

  is not having Siri built-in but you know [TS]

  that's but having airplay to it will [TS]

  allow it even better integration with [TS]

  the Apple ecosystem so if they pull off [TS]

  airplay to which they promise for next [TS]

  year if they pull off the Google system [TS]

  which they also promise I believe for [TS]

  next year or is that immediate do you [TS]

  member anyway they put in Google system [TS]

  sometime soon and right now there are a [TS]

  few weird little asterisks about voice [TS]

  control so basically the with so noticed [TS]

  you can't access Spotify through voice [TS]

  control even though the echo products [TS]

  can and and you can't access Apple music [TS]

  through voice control even though the [TS]

  Sonos products can so there's all these [TS]

  little weird exceptions to like well it [TS]

  can do mostly everything except it can't [TS]

  do this little exception I came for this [TS]

  low exception kind of like USB see there [TS]

  anyways all these little exceptions so [TS]

  it's hard to say for sure like you know [TS]

  this device or this device can do [TS]

  everything but it sure does look like [TS]

  you know Google is never going to [TS]

  integrate anything like their goals [TS]

  never gonna have Siri or airplay to from [TS]

  Apple they're never going to have [TS]

  probably the Amazon assistant or the [TS]

  kind of integrations amazon has amazon's [TS]

  also never never going to have the stuff [TS]

  from Apple but will also never do the [TS]

  Google assistant Sano's is probably set [TS]

  up so far with the things we know to [TS]

  have the most support from the most [TS]

  places which is why it's interesting [TS]

  even though it has those weird little [TS]

  exceptions to things and when you're [TS]

  buying products like smart home stuff [TS]

  these days it's not that hard to find [TS]

  stuff that supports both home kit and [TS]

  the the Amazon devices so you might as [TS]

  well do that when you can but all this [TS]

  stuff is so so early that it's still [TS]

  advisable to just wait on a host of [TS]

  the stuff even though it's fun like if [TS]

  if you are averse to having to replace [TS]

  some of the gear you buy now in a year [TS]

  or two when standards change or when you [TS]

  want to change eco systems or when some [TS]

  ego system cuts off some other your [TS]

  system that used to be integrated if [TS]

  you're averse to that just don't buy [TS]

  anything yet if you do jump in now be [TS]

  prepared for that possibility in some [TS]

  respects are saying like apples is off [TS]

  there in the corner like with its [TS]

  proprietary stuff that it's never gonna [TS]

  mix with anybody else and that it hasn't [TS]

  even shipped it's it's very first [TS]

  cylinder and who knows how good it will [TS]

  even be and meanwhile everyone else on [TS]

  their second or third iteration and has [TS]

  this big ecosystem and lots of users and [TS]

  stuff but on the other hand the [TS]

  advantage of the Apple still has because [TS]

  there is still no dominant real really [TS]

  dominant player in this market on the [TS]

  hardware or software side at this point [TS]

  except for I guess maybe Amazon but I [TS]

  don't think they ever tell us what they [TS]

  sell is that if you do go all Apple you [TS]

  subscribe to Apple music you buy Apple [TS]

  stuff you buy the Apple home pod you [TS]

  have you know airplay support and all [TS]

  your thing is you have Apple TV's [TS]

  everywhere at least you can be sure all [TS]

  that stuff works together whereas I mean [TS]

  I guess Google if you have an Android [TS]

  phone and a home thing you're kind of in [TS]

  the same situation but Amazon doesn't [TS]

  have you know a desktop laptop operating [TS]

  system they have a tablet OS but I don't [TS]

  know if you're really gonna buy that [TS]

  tablet they don't have a phone anymore [TS]

  right they don't sell the fire felt like [TS]

  that no one has as complete an ecosystem [TS]

  as Apple and so no one can offer the [TS]

  type of just buy everything from us and [TS]

  your whole life from your computer to [TS]

  your phone to your television to your [TS]

  tear we're cylinder speaker that you [TS]

  talk to [TS]

  well I'm subscribed to our music service [TS]

  we'll all work together they've got the [TS]

  biggest picture I supposed to Google [TS]

  does two if you count like the Google [TS]

  those weird Google laptops and the [TS]

  Chromebooks and stuff as well although I [TS]

  tend not to count those so if you had [TS]

  money to burn and you wanted to make [TS]

  sure you had a system that all work [TS]

  together that would be one way to go [TS]

  swimming out boy if you ship that stuff [TS]

  and it was any good but I don't see how [TS]

  that can hold long-term I you know and [TS]

  if Apple just wants the high-end and if [TS]

  some of us isn't successful then maybe [TS]

  they can get that but I hope eventually [TS]

  standards start to emerge and coalesce [TS]

  and it's it becomes more clear [TS]

  what the safe approaches when you buy [TS]

  and have some reasonable chance that it [TS]

  will be useful for a long time but like [TS]

  Margot said right now there is nothing [TS]

  that's the case for you want to buy and [TS]

  play with it's cool and it's fun fine [TS]

  but don't buy it and then two years be [TS]

  all annoyed because you have to replace [TS]

  half of it or you know it becomes [TS]

  obsolete or doesn't work with your new [TS]

  new light bulbs or whatever [TS]

  I am also I'm increasingly concerned [TS]

  about apples chances to really make a [TS]

  dent in this market because at you know [TS]

  as everyone else progresses and advances [TS]

  so quickly the the possible advantages [TS]

  Apple has keep getting I think that list [TS]

  keeps getting shorter and that on the [TS]

  main factors of the reasons why people [TS]

  buy and use these things I am [TS]

  increasingly concerned about apples [TS]

  competitiveness so for instance you know [TS]

  not only my previous concerns about [TS]

  things like price connectivity and the [TS]

  quality of Siri and and the consistency [TS]

  of Syria to react quickly and correctly [TS]

  to as many queries as possible I'm [TS]

  increasingly concerned that if having a [TS]

  large ecosystem of compatible [TS]

  you know Internet of Things things and [TS]

  you know if that's important or if [TS]

  interoperability with anything else with [TS]

  any of these other systems are important [TS]

  or if third-party apps support is [TS]

  important apples are gonna really fall [TS]

  down hard in those areas probably for a [TS]

  very long time if not forever [TS]

  and so I really I really have concerns [TS]

  like not that they'll sell none of these [TS]

  things they'll sell some but are we [TS]

  looking at the next Amazon echo or we're [TS]

  looking to the next iPod hi-fi took a [TS]

  while they are going to and they have [TS]

  loosened up the homekit stuff in various [TS]

  ways which shows I think they know that [TS]

  they need to do something but my biggest [TS]

  concern with Apple is everyone else is [TS]

  shipping and shipping again and multiple [TS]

  generations like it was hoist this up [TS]

  from it was down in the topic section I [TS]

  didn't talk about speak about the Google [TS]

  home max and minnie which is the whole [TS]

  mini is a tiny little puck thing kind of [TS]

  like the look yeah kodanda yeah and then [TS]

  the max is a big you know so no size [TS]

  multi-speaker thing it's got two big [TS]

  woofers and two big tweeters you know [TS]

  for better sound this is Google's annex [TS]

  second or maybe third iteration of their [TS]

  they're home products and they already [TS]

  have multiple form factors in three [TS]

  different sizes Apple still has not [TS]

  shipped it's one single form factor very [TS]

  first cylinder they're so far behind you [TS]

  can't be in this game if you haven't [TS]

  even shipped your thing yet where is the [TS]

  you know the three different sizes of [TS]

  Apple stuff you know the second or third [TS]

  revision of the hardware and software [TS]

  and you know the ecosystem that's built [TS]

  up around it that's you have to ship you [TS]

  have to be you have to start make your [TS]

  first one that doesn't seem like you can [TS]

  do much and people aren't that [TS]

  interested in then make your second one [TS]

  then make your line of three new ones [TS]

  and just they they have a lot of [TS]

  catching up to do if they if they want [TS]

  to do something here and they're just [TS]

  lucky essentially that no one standard [TS]

  or thing has to really completely run [TS]

  away with it and again maybe maybe [TS]

  that's not true maybe Amazon has run [TS]

  away with it and we just don't know [TS]

  because people are shy about their sales [TS]

  numbers but and you know Google is an [TS]

  also-ran that very few people get but I [TS]

  don't know and I get more apples [TS]

  marketing and brand recognition is [TS]

  something that could save it if they're [TS]

  a practice actually good but we'll see [TS]

  do you think it's still gonna ship this [TS]

  year did they say was supposed to I kept [TS]

  thinking I was gonna ship next year no [TS]

  they they said home pop was I believe [TS]

  they said either later this year or [TS]

  December I forget which is counted as [TS]

  because they said such a late ship data [TS]

  it's like well you're not making the [TS]

  holiday so who the hell cares [TS]

  just pretend it's next year yeah it [TS]

  sounded kind of like they were gonna [TS]

  like pretty much miss the holidays but [TS]

  maybe you can place an order on December [TS]

  15th even though you probably won't [TS]

  probably won't get it by the holidays [TS]

  like I that's kind of odd but like [TS]

  they're not going to launch this thing [TS]

  without having another event right like [TS]

  because right now we know nothing about [TS]

  its capabilities all we know is that [TS]

  it's sound plays music that's always but [TS]

  we don't know how it plays music [TS]

  we don't know like you don't know [TS]

  anything about Siri on it we don't know [TS]

  anything about any other kind of smart [TS]

  anything about it like we we they were [TS]

  able to show nothing basically [TS]

  so they probably wouldn't launch it [TS]

  without some kind of small event or at [TS]

  least private demo [TS]

  I don't like but time is running out in [TS]

  the year for when they might do that [TS]

  yeah like I don't like I'm I would bet [TS]

  especially as we've heard [TS]

  nothing about it since then I bet it I [TS]

  bet mrs. this year [TS]

  I bet it's delayed which is even more [TS]

  concerning if it's true don't become [TS]

  with an Apple TV remote that you hold [TS]

  down the speaker button and talk and do [TS]

  when you wanted to play something on [TS]

  your neck on a lanyard we are sponsored [TS]

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  purchase make your next move with a [TS]

  beautiful website from Squarespace all [TS]

  right any other follow-up oh yes there [TS]

  is one more which I am deeply afraid to [TS]

  bring up somebody has written hi Sierra [TS]

  update and then some but it was this me [TS]

  did I write this maybe I wrote this god [TS]

  I need a drink [TS]

  yes seriously I don't know what you're [TS]

  doing Casey's fear in his FOMO I don't [TS]

  know why I wrote this cuz I wrote a [TS]

  taste go but these women write and I [TS]

  wrote it you don't even know what you [TS]

  wrote [TS]

  because you were asking before like if [TS]

  you wrote you wrote fomo in here you did [TS]

  that's a very kc thing to say [TS]

  not kc thing to say sure but you're [TS]

  you're above that I thought I didn't [TS]

  think anyway it's the thing that you say [TS]

  a lot so it's a good anyway this is [TS]

  about you asking hey can I update hi [TS]

  Sierra have freaking permission no you [TS]

  just want reassurance in any way so it [TS]

  like it's a balancing of your fear which [TS]

  is like what if updated and house is my [TS]

  computer and you're follow which is like [TS]

  everyone else to run hi Sierra and [TS]

  they're all having fun and hi Sierra and [TS]

  I'm over here and just plain old Sierra [TS]

  it's not high at all and I don't have [TS]

  the cool new desktop background which is [TS]

  the most important feature no I that [TS]

  that I don't care about the most [TS]

  important features Apple watch unlock [TS]

  for my fancy cellular Apple watch the [TS]

  desktop background is actually really [TS]

  nice though so last time we talked I had [TS]

  some peer about it it was like I'm not [TS]

  fucking an update and it's a little bit [TS]

  scary and you know you got the new file [TS]

  system and the new version of photos and [TS]

  hearing some weird stories and so on and [TS]

  so forth but actually shortly after that [TS]

  show an opportunity presented itself to [TS]

  just update my wife's computer after [TS]

  doing umpteen backups and so I did and [TS]

  it was entirely uneventful other than [TS]

  one one thing which I mean it's kind of [TS]

  all tied up in the OS the new version of [TS]

  photos which I've been playing with a [TS]

  lot is being a little bit cranky I don't [TS]

  know if I want to blame this on a new [TS]

  version of photos because if you google [TS]

  for the error I'm getting it is a many [TS]

  many years old error Mike it's for the [TS]

  entire life of the photos application [TS]

  you can go back in time and see this is [TS]

  not there's not a new phenomenon but [TS]

  it's a thing where it hangs there in [TS]

  closing library like you do you quit and [TS]

  it shows a tiny little window that says [TS]

  closing the library dot dot dot and then [TS]

  it will just hang there forever you [TS]

  leave it overnight and come back it'll [TS]

  still stay closed in the library and of [TS]

  course you don't want to kill it right [TS]

  because you're like well it's gonna [TS]

  corrupt its library or whatever it's [TS]

  like oh just hold down the option key [TS]

  when you launch it and you can repair [TS]

  your database which I did and it took a [TS]

  really long time to run and it repaired [TS]

  and then I use photos for and then I [TS]

  quit it's a closing library I just sent [TS]

  that for a long time so I did a bunch of [TS]

  samples I filed a bug they sent me back [TS]

  some scary instructions to enable the [TS]

  super duper debug mode on photos which I [TS]

  may do if I get desperate but that's the [TS]

  only problem I've had other than that I [TS]

  just just pretend like nothing ever [TS]

  happened there's like a new desktop [TS]

  backgrounds for everybody and photos has [TS]

  a bunch of new features in it but it's [TS]

  still slow by the way and so I'm fine it [TS]

  doesn't mean Casey should update cuz [TS]

  maybe it will be disastrous for you but [TS]

  I did it and nothing weird happened all [TS]

  my time machine updates in here to run [TS]

  crash planking things run no software [TS]

  stopped working everything it just like [TS]

  there's one of those updates where you [TS]

  know it it seems like nothing actually [TS]

  happens I guess means that I'm not [TS]

  taking advantage of whatever a cool new [TS]

  features are in there that I'm supposed [TS]

  to be looking at but it's fine with me [TS]

  that's what I wanted I wanted to be [TS]

  uneventful and so far other than photos [TS]

  being photos it is so I actually have hi [TS]

  Sierra on both my work and my work [TS]

  computer in my MacBook adorable and it's [TS]

  been just fine but I've been scared / [TS]

  hesitant to do it on my iMac because god [TS]

  forbid there is some sort of issue with [TS]

  you know my podcast equipment or [TS]

  whatever I guess I could fall back to [TS]

  Erin's MacBook Air and presumably pour [TS]

  another cup of water on it but I'd [TS]

  rather not have a problem but I [TS]

  basically asked in the relay slack hey [TS]

  have you guys upgraded and Dan Morey and [TS]

  I think one or two other people had said [TS]

  yes I have and it's been fine and it's [TS]

  like I said it's been fine in every [TS]

  other regard other than podcasting but I [TS]

  hadn't tried any of the podcast related [TS]

  stuff yet and I think the more the story [TS]

  is I'm probably gonna do it after we [TS]

  record this show not like tonight but [TS]

  you know sometime in the next few days [TS]

  make backups my computer that I'm [TS]

  recording this podcast on is still [TS]

  running El Capitan because it's my 2000 [TS]

  a Mac Pro and Karen's here oh that's [TS]

  fine like I'm saying is I wasn't if I [TS]

  was trying to do it on the computer [TS]

  where I recorded podcast maybe I'd be [TS]

  even more wary but my wife's computer I [TS]

  felt like you know I had her permission [TS]

  more or less I talked to her about it [TS]

  she just I was trying to say I you know [TS]

  I'm thinking of you know it might I told [TS]

  her it might take many many hours [TS]

  because you can't say oh the update will [TS]

  take like an hour but like you know what [TS]

  if it had gone wrong with an add to [TS]

  restore from backup that's like look [TS]

  just I'm going to start this process at [TS]

  noon on a Wii [TS]

  again if I started a new and worst case [TS]

  scenario you get your computer back [TS]

  tomorrow midday as I just spent hours [TS]

  doing tremendous amounts of io right all [TS]

  right so let's do some ask ATP let's see [TS]

  it'll start with Kyle Kyle writes in to [TS]

  say hey ATP what browser do you guys use [TS]

  I like the idea of using Safari on all [TS]

  my devices but Chrome's extensions are [TS]

  so much better [TS]

  I do use I think I got this idea from [TS]

  Marco actually I do use Chrome on [TS]

  occasion as like my Google Docs slash [TS]

  flash quarantine the flash part isn't [TS]

  really a thing barely ever anymore but [TS]

  from time to time I need it for some [TS]

  reason or another other usually [TS]

  restaurants but I use it for Google Docs [TS]

  which is why I have it open for tonight [TS]

  because I have that our show notes in [TS]

  Google Docs [TS]

  but generally speaking 99% of my web [TS]

  browsing for anything personal is Safari [TS]

  on every platform I also use Google for [TS]

  work-related things because our work is [TS]

  all in on Google Apps but other than [TS]

  work and other than basically when I [TS]

  record the show it's pretty much all [TS]

  Safari to me I am NOT a heavy extensions [TS]

  user on either browser personally I I [TS]

  can't fathom using Chrome full-time [TS]

  especially on a laptop but really at all [TS]

  because I find it to be no faster than [TS]

  Safari which I know everyone's gonna [TS]

  write in and tell me how wrong I am but [TS]

  I don't find it to be any faster than [TS]

  Safari and it is such a battery hog that [TS]

  it's just I can't do it I don't know and [TS]

  personally I don't know why anyone would [TS]

  so with that in mind Marco what do you [TS]

  use pretty much same thing I've been [TS]

  doing for a long time now which is [TS]

  Safari for almost everything and then [TS]

  Chrome on the desktop as you described [TS]

  for either sites I don't trust or things [TS]

  that require flash or things that are [TS]

  generally in the Google ecosystem so [TS]

  Google Docs as you mentioned it's kind [TS]

  of like my podcasting brush like I'm I [TS]

  have open now so like my first few tabs [TS]

  or all like the stuff that I needed to [TS]

  record podcast stuff because it started [TS]

  out being Google Docs and it kind of you [TS]

  know became my convention from there and [TS]

  also I use Facebook for a couple of [TS]

  groups that have to be a part of and so [TS]

  I don't even have the app installed on [TS]

  my phone or anything [TS]

  I keep Facebook only in Chrome [TS]

  and yeah not do anywhere else and don't [TS]

  have you know their creepiness attract [TS]

  me you know tracking me all over the [TS]

  place and etc I i respect why people [TS]

  like chrome that there were times in my [TS]

  professional career and my home life [TS]

  where I have used chrome full time I [TS]

  ended up switching back after a while [TS]

  but chrome is fine I just really like [TS]

  Safari a lot better so I run both Chrome [TS]

  and Safari all the time on all my [TS]

  computers that I use which may sound [TS]

  crazy remember I'd use desktops or I [TS]

  have a lot of type of work that I [TS]

  pretend is a desktop so I don't care [TS]

  about battery because everything's [TS]

  always plugged in now is this because [TS]

  you're hitting some kind of limit on how [TS]

  many tabs and windows that one of them [TS]

  can have open at once you know why do I [TS]

  do it this split by I feel like there [TS]

  are advantages to both browsers Safari [TS]

  has always been and still as my default [TS]

  so if I click a link in anything it [TS]

  opens in Safari I like both browsers a [TS]

  lot Chrome I use all my Google stuff in [TS]

  I use Gmail for my email and I figure [TS]

  like there's a nice synergy which I'm [TS]

  sure that like Google's properties or [TS]

  whatever will all work well in Chrome [TS]

  because it's in Google's interest to [TS]

  make sure that's that they I'm sure they [TS]

  work fine in Safari too but it just [TS]

  seems more natural for me to do all my [TS]

  Google stuff I use a Google Calendar [TS]

  Google Docs you know all that stuff is [TS]

  in Chrome and Safari for general web [TS]

  browsing I use Chrome for general [TS]

  browsing too cuz Safari still does [TS]

  nothing occasionally to me where it just [TS]

  says I'm not into loading web pages [TS]

  anymore I always feel like it's selling [TS]

  to me you have too many windows open [TS]

  right like you've got a lot of Lee [TS]

  you've got a lot of browser windows open [TS]

  I know that you typed an address to the [TS]

  address bar and hit return I might just [TS]

  stay here as a white window for a while [TS]

  to punish you for having like maybe I'm [TS]

  not gonna load windows anymore and [TS]

  furthering that fact and sometimes I'll [TS]

  be like all right what if I close one of [TS]

  these background windows and it's like [TS]

  okay now I can load like I've said this [TS]

  before like it feels like it's out of [TS]

  file descriptors that's not what's [TS]

  happening it doesn't say that in the [TS]

  console but it's that type of feeling [TS]

  where it's like it's exhaust is some [TS]

  kind of resource whereas Chrome every [TS]

  single time I open a new window or tab [TS]

  and type a URL into the address bar and [TS]

  hit return it loads the damn page every [TS]

  single time [TS]

  does and that is super important to me [TS]

  and I love chrome for that and I also [TS]

  use Chrome's dev tools and I don't love [TS]

  this about Chrome but I use it for anode [TS]

  debugging to I know there are better [TS]

  solutions I'm just still stuck using [TS]

  Chrome for that so I use both but [TS]

  safaris my default but I do really love [TS]

  Chrome and not because of all the [TS]

  extensions I do have extensions [TS]

  installed I just I just think it's a [TS]

  good reliable web browser all right [TS]

  Sebastian writes in continuing on the [TS]

  John portion of the show what are John's [TS]

  thoughts on the new Accord and we kind [TS]

  of touched on this in what will probably [TS]

  end up being the after show that we [TS]

  talked about before we started really [TS]

  recording so you may not have heard this [TS]

  listeners but there will be more a chord [TS]

  talk at some point or another but John [TS]

  what are your thoughts on the new Accord [TS]

  I think it's ugly er than my generation [TS]

  of a chord which is a shame I like the [TS]

  fact that you get the stick shift with [TS]

  the big engine I'm not sure about [TS]

  anything beyond that because I haven't [TS]

  actually driven it myself all I can say [TS]

  is that it seems like Honda is going in [TS]

  the right direction with those cars and [TS]

  it's getting good reviews but I'm kind [TS]

  of glad that both I and my wife got the [TS]

  previous generation the only thing I'm [TS]

  really jealous of in the new one is the [TS]

  infotainment because my apartment is [TS]

  dire and this one is less dire koumei [TS]

  writes in for command line work do you [TS]

  just use terminal or are you partial to [TS]

  a third-party app and so marcos since [TS]

  you were quiet before let's start with [TS]

  you I had forgotten that there even were [TS]

  third-party terminal app site so it [TS]

  weighs is this the question about [TS]

  third-party terminal window like [TS]

  terminal clients or is it about like [TS]

  using gooeys versus terminal commands [TS]

  for things like MySQL and get and stuff [TS]

  like that let's make it all of the above [TS]

  so hey what what what what shell are you [TS]

  on B and what kind of Orion whatever you [TS]

  please don't confuse that with terminal [TS]

  you know it's one of my pet peeves why [TS]

  would you do that to me John I was one [TS]

  of your pet peeves actually I wasn't [TS]

  either but okay so a long list are you [TS]

  on a bash or something else or whatever [TS]

  ridiculous one that John insists on are [TS]

  you on the the stock terminal app or [TS]

  something else and when you're doing [TS]

  things like git do you tend to do that [TS]

  on the command line or else [TS]

  so all three of those starting with [TS]

  Marco and I have answers as well but [TS]

  I'll round I'll round us all out at the [TS]

  end okay I use apples normal terminal [TS]

  app I find it great I have never sought [TS]

  a different one because I'm very happy [TS]

  with it you know I use Bosch because you [TS]

  know probably the same reason most [TS]

  people use Bosch it's already there and [TS]

  it's what I've always known I know there [TS]

  are better shells out there but it has [TS]

  just never been worth it for me to not [TS]

  only you know learn new shell but then [TS]

  to put it on all the different not only [TS]

  Mac's but all the servers that I login [TS]

  to I mean I log in to like 30 surfers on [TS]

  a regular basis so it's not like yes I [TS]

  can't you know you could try to like [TS]

  automate stuff but like it would just it [TS]

  would be a pain for me to switch away [TS]

  from bash and IR and it's fine I know [TS]

  it's not amazing but it's fine as for [TS]

  you know gooeys versus terminal commands [TS]

  for you know things that programmers [TS]

  deal with so things like git MySQL you [TS]

  know PHP and any kind of like in a [TS]

  database source control kind of stuff I [TS]

  use terminals terminal commands for [TS]

  almost all of it including any kind of [TS]

  you know MySQL administration things [TS]

  like that the only thing I really use [TS]

  gooeys for is I do still use them I do [TS]

  now use them forget I used the the get [TS]

  tower app for Mac it is wonderful and I [TS]

  I know most of the git commands that you [TS]

  know to use it via terminal or by [TS]

  command line but get is terrible on the [TS]

  command line I mean it's hard enough to [TS]

  understand in a GUI let alone the [TS]

  command line and so I find that while I [TS]

  can do these things in the command line [TS]

  I usually prefer not to because not only [TS]

  is the GUI less error-prone and more [TS]

  intuitive for these kind of things but [TS]

  it also provides some really nice [TS]

  features like the way it it diffs and [TS]

  displays commits and and and file diffs [TS]

  and per line difts and everything it's [TS]

  really nice people to visualize that and [TS]

  a really nice GUI so I can tell like [TS]

  what have I changed in this file what am [TS]

  I actually committing you know here and [TS]

  we're exactly what lines have changed [TS]

  where have they changed it just it's way [TS]

  you know all the stuff is possible on [TS]

  the command line but it's just so much [TS]

  easier in the GUI John Courtney [TS]

  forgotten what all their questions okay [TS]

  the terminal app I use the default [TS]

  terminal one and always have it has been [TS]

  very reliable to me [TS]

  I think I first fell in love with it [TS]

  when i saw the unlimited scroll back [TS]

  feature that's all i want life girl back [TS]

  use all my memories life just scroll [TS]

  back cuz I might keep my computer [TS]

  running for a long time and windows open [TS]

  for a month although actually I'm kind [TS]

  of a bit of a serial command carrier in [TS]

  terminal like trunk getting the scroll [TS]

  back which I shouldn't do and I should [TS]

  use marks but I don't but anyway [TS]

  plain old terminal I have dabbled and [TS]

  things like I term and stuff but just [TS]

  terminal as is what I've always used and [TS]

  it's always been so reliable and it just [TS]

  does its job and all the the basics like [TS]

  copying pasting text and having it you [TS]

  know not copy hard line breaks at the [TS]

  end like crappy Windows terminal [TS]

  programs do and stuff like that just [TS]

  everything works fine when I and when I [TS]

  when I scroll my mouse wheel or you know [TS]

  like or use the the cursor in Emacs and [TS]

  it picks it up like I don't have to set [TS]

  all that stuff up it's the terminal type [TS]

  is set correctly for all the Mac OS 10 [TS]

  things expected to be anyway it's fine [TS]

  I'm sure the other ones are better but I [TS]

  don't use them so plain old terminal for [TS]

  what was the next one command line [TS]

  versus GUI apps for shell program or [TS]

  anything Oh she'll should I use a cc SH [TS]

  because that's what was installed on the [TS]

  ACS system at bu when I entered College [TS]

  in 1993 that's it I just have a [TS]

  collection of doute files that I've been [TS]

  building up since then I have also [TS]

  dabbled in other shells but I was no way [TS]

  I'm gonna redo all my dot files and [TS]

  aliases I like tssh and it would take me [TS]

  a while for any shell I actually tried [TS]

  fish as well it would take me a while [TS]

  for any shell for me to i would have to [TS]

  basically remap everything i'd have to [TS]

  say i need control R to be reversed [TS]

  history search interactive and I need it [TS]

  to behave exactly the same way as tcsh [TS]

  does because if it doesn't my fingers [TS]

  won't work anymore and I don't need to [TS]

  go with that so I dread the day that I [TS]

  like compiled Thea tcsh myself the [TS]

  example stop shipping it but so far they [TS]

  still do and for program retype apps [TS]

  pretty much always command-line like I [TS]

  you know I spend many many years using [TS]

  perforce and I only use the command-line [TS]

  the only time I use the GUI I'm sorry [TS]

  it's not that bad oh wait that one time [TS]

  I use the gooeys my name did you see [TS]

  like a revision graph or some other sort [TS]

  of GUI thing and the P for V app but [TS]

  of GUI thing and the P for V app but [TS]

  I kind of feel like that I don't [TS]

  actually know the version control system [TS]

  if I don't know how to use the command [TS]

  line and get is the ultimate challenge [TS]

  that it's like oh yeah try using this [TS]

  freaking command line I hate it with a [TS]

  passion is so poorly designed everything [TS]

  about it is terrible and I'm terribly [TS]

  good because I've only been using it [TS]

  like it worked basically for I don't [TS]

  know like less than a year now I never [TS]

  really really learned it even though [TS]

  I've read a million tutorials and at one [TS]

  point I feel like I finally understand [TS]

  get but that was like years ago when it [TS]

  was first created someone wrote a really [TS]

  good explanation of exactly how it works [TS]

  under the covers and it's like oh now I [TS]

  get it [TS]

  but you know years past and it all [TS]

  leaves your head and nothing sticks in [TS]

  there because the command line is so [TS]

  unintuitive and yet I still basically [TS]

  forced myself to use the command line I [TS]

  just make mistakes and I've tried give [TS]

  tower and the github as Annapolis the [TS]

  other one there's like a third one [TS]

  that's popular on the Mac SourceTree [TS]

  yeah that's one there's and there's one [TS]

  that's side by side get box I think yeah [TS]

  get box yeah get boxes the other one [TS]

  yeah I have all those installed and in [TS]

  caves my dive into them but I I feel [TS]

  wary about doing any version control [TS]

  stuff from the way and things like my [TS]

  sequel and stuff like that I've [TS]

  command-line always like you know the [TS]

  the Postgres command-line is great now I [TS]

  was spoiled by that though my sequel [TS]

  command line isn't that bad the Oracle [TS]

  you know sequel plus is the worst [TS]

  command line ever created by a human [TS]

  being and yet still I don't it'll make [TS]

  you feel better about it if you've never [TS]

  had the pleasure to use [TS]

  sequel Star Plus or whatever the hell [TS]

  that weird name is so bad but I'm also [TS]

  use the command line once for those and [TS]

  I still have the gooeys installs and [TS]

  will fire fire them up occasionally like [TS]

  Oracle has sequel develop Oracle sequel [TS]

  developer or whatever but just they're [TS]

  not good GUI apps even if they run the [TS]

  Mac they usually like weird Java things [TS]

  or they they seem weird and the native [TS]

  my sequel and Postgres clients they're [TS]

  nice but the best interface I've ever [TS]

  had isn't like a database has been the [TS]

  Postgres command line like better than [TS]

  any GUI that I've used so that's it so [TS]

  for me I use fish shell for reasons I [TS]

  don't even really know I just it's color [TS]

  coded nicely some of the scripting I [TS]

  like more because I've never I was never [TS]

  really proficient in like bash scripting [TS]

  or anything else so [TS]

  it makes logical choices in places where [TS]

  I would expect a logical choice which is [TS]

  probably more about my own ignorance of [TS]

  Bosch than anything else [TS]

  I do basic command line stuff forget [TS]

  four basic things a lot of the time I'm [TS]

  probably oh man I'd say I probably 50/50 [TS]

  with git tower and the command line and [TS]

  certainly any time things get really [TS]

  wonky I'm looking at git tower because I [TS]

  agree with the both of you and I'm sure [TS]

  we're gonna get a bunch of feedback [TS]

  about it but I agree with you guys that [TS]

  get on the command line is really weird [TS]

  and has never really clicked with me and [TS]

  I use the terminal app so terminal app [TS]

  fish and get tower with get on the [TS]

  command line from time to time and that [TS]

  concludes ask ATP we are sponsored this [TS]

  week by audible get a free audiobook [TS]

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  exercising audiobooks are wonderful you [TS]

  can see for yourself with a free 30-day [TS]

  trial and your first audio book is free [TS]

  go to slash ATP to see for [TS]

  yourself I'm recently reading the book [TS]

  called arbitrary stupid goal by Tamara [TS]

  shops in' of the wonderful famous new [TS]

  york shops and family it's it's so New [TS]

  York I really love it [TS]

  culturally just world view language it's [TS]

  it's just delightful if you're really [TS]

  into like the New York style so once [TS]

  again arbitrary stupid goal by Tamara [TS]

  shops in' it's just great anyway go to [TS] slash [TS]

  ATP and you can get a free audiobook [TS]

  when you sign up with a 30-day free [TS]

  trial at slash ATP again [TS]

  thank you so much to audible for [TS]

  sponsoring our show [TS]

  I have a question and I don't really [TS]

  expect either of you to have an answer [TS]

  but at one point and I believe this was [TS]

  before I had installed it on my watch [TS]

  but I might have my details wrong but at [TS]

  one point I had my watch or excuse me I [TS]

  had my phone I think it was like in the [TS]

  house upstairs far enough away that the [TS]

  watch couldn't see it and maybe I was on [TS]

  a walk maybe I was in the house on the [TS]

  other side of the house we don't have a [TS]

  terribly large house but I guess we were [TS]

  on opposite ends of the house from each [TS]

  other whatever but the point is my watch [TS]

  was on cellular and I got a push [TS]

  notification from the app dude eue but [TS]

  my watch was on cellular and I hadn't [TS]

  used the app on my watch at all at that [TS]

  point I don't believe like I don't think [TS]

  I had installed it on my watch I might [TS]

  be wrong about that so maybe I've [TS]

  answered my own question but my question [TS]

  is if the watch app wasn't installed and [TS]

  I got a do push notification but all of [TS]

  the all of the stuff that that was in do [TS]

  you was living only on the phone like I [TS]

  don't think I'd set up by cloud syncing [TS]

  or anything like that how did I get that [TS]

  push notification so in summary is the [TS]

  is Apple proxying push notifications [TS]

  from the phone to the watch does that [TS]

  make sense because in theory this wasn't [TS]

  a push notification from like some [TS]

  server somewhere it was from the phone [TS]

  itself so it's like the phone calling [TS]

  home to Apple and saying hey can you [TS]

  push this notification to the watch [TS]

  because I can't find it myself again I [TS]

  don't know if I really expect an answer [TS]

  from you guys but it seemed the wonky [TS]

  that I was and it was good it was a good [TS]

  thing don't get me wrong but it seemed [TS]

  wonky that I was getting a push [TS]

  notification for something I didn't [TS]

  expect on my watch should have written [TS]

  in to ask ATP did I try that once and [TS]

  you yelled at me to put it in the show [TS]

  notes I'm pretty sure that's what [TS]

  happened I don't I don't [TS]

  Marco I'm assuming we'll have the best [TS]

  answer for this if any of us do but the [TS]

  only thing I have dad is having just [TS]

  gone through the watch setup process [TS]

  when I was nuking my [TS]

  reinstalling watch OS 3 before upgrading [TS]

  to four was I was reminded again that [TS]

  there's an option somewhere and that the [TS]

  watch app preferences that says watch [TS]

  mirrors notifications on phone sure [TS]

  sorry and that would seem like they were [TS]

  doing what you said oh it's a local [TS]

  notification and the watch is set to [TS]

  mirror any notification that happens on [TS]

  your phone and so it did well but I [TS]

  think that's more about the settings for [TS]

  notifications so as an example let's [TS]

  take do with the app Tue well okay if [TS]

  it's say if you're saying mirror what [TS]

  the phone settings are that means just [TS]

  do what the phone is doing and if that [TS]

  means play a sound and show it on the [TS]

  lock screen then the watch will get a [TS]

  sound and it'll show it you know just [TS]

  like any other notification if you've [TS]

  muted the notifications on the phone [TS]

  then the watch would not receive those [TS]

  notifications this is in contrast to [TS]

  going into the watch app on your phone [TS]

  and saying no I don't want do on my [TS]

  watch even though I do want it on my [TS]

  phone that's a terrible choice of [TS]

  examples because now I'm using D UE and [TS]

  do it back to back but hopefully you get [TS]

  what I'm driving at so it just it I [TS]

  think this is something different which [TS]

  is it felt as though and somebody in the [TS]

  chat is saying the same thing it felt as [TS]

  though there was a push notification [TS]

  that was that was sourced from my phone [TS]

  that wound up on my watch when my watch [TS]

  was on cellular and thus could not [TS]

  connect to the phone so is that being [TS]

  proxied by Apple or is there something [TS]

  some other trickery going on or am I [TS]

  just plain bananas Marco thoughts I [TS]

  don't think we know yeah I don't think [TS]

  we do either and and I appreciate that [TS]

  you think I would have more information [TS]

  on this as presumably an app developer [TS]

  but I don't it would be an interesting [TS]

  to know whether the notification you [TS]

  receive in your watch was a local [TS]

  notification or a remote push [TS]

  notification because you mention that [TS]

  you weren't really sure about that I [TS]

  don't know how do work I don't use it so [TS]

  I'm not sure but if it was a remote push [TS]

  notification that would be easier to [TS]

  figure out because like the way the way [TS]

  push notifications work on the app side [TS]

  is whenever you say yes you can send [TS]

  this device notifications when you first [TS]

  install the app the app gets a token [TS]

  that it can use just like a long string [TS]

  that identifies that device and when the [TS]

  app is Center notifications [TS]

  the server-side it just basically sends [TS]

  a notification service like that token [TS]

  and then a JSON dictionary of what the [TS]

  notification content should be so it [TS]

  would be perfectly reasonable I don't [TS]

  think the watch gets its own eyes yeah [TS]

  yeah but it would be perfectly [TS]

  reasonable for the push notification [TS]

  service if it if it knows of a walk that [TS]

  is on LTE to just forward anything that [TS]

  goes to the phones token also to the [TS]

  watch what if it's the local [TS]

  notification that's a different story [TS]

  though that's a very different [TS]

  implementation that would mean right as [TS]

  you theorize the phone would have to [TS]

  basically like realize it couldn't [TS]

  contact the watch send the local [TS]

  notification back up to Apple for it to [TS]

  be sent back over to the phone heir to [TS]

  the watch rather and that's a little bit [TS]

  weird when you consider the possibility [TS]

  that a phone can be paired to multiple [TS]

  watches so like needs it's a very [TS]

  complicated setup when you're thinking [TS]

  about the LTE watch like it's it sounds [TS]

  kind of like a checkbox of like oh this [TS]

  year they added LTE okay like done but [TS]

  in practice it was probably way more [TS]

  complicated than the hep because of [TS]

  things like this people are gonna expect [TS]

  it to just work and Apple has to figure [TS]

  out how to implement whatever that means [TS]

  and it's you know so it wouldn't [TS]

  surprise me if they actually did it if [TS]

  they actually have some kind of crazy [TS]

  proxying system where they're setting [TS]

  local notifications from the phone back [TS]

  up to Apple and then back over to the [TS]

  watch when consider felt elated it [TS]

  actually might do that but I don't know [TS]

  and it certainly seems like a lot of the [TS]

  stuff regarding LTE on the watch is [TS]

  super early and possibly even a little [TS]

  bit unfinished so it wouldn't surprise [TS]

  me also if this was nothing fancy going [TS]

  on if it was just like the same push [TS]

  token being used remotely by Apple [TS]

  servers or the other option is maybe it [TS]

  was local up to your phone but that it [TS]

  actually did receive it already or it [TS]

  was a local notification scheduled to go [TS]

  at a certain time and the watch just [TS]

  copied that over last time it talked to [TS]

  the phone so it just knew like alright [TS]

  well over the next 24 hours or whatever [TS]

  I'm gonna need these notifications and [TS]

  so here I'll just copy them all over and [TS]

  then I'll show them if if the phone is [TS]

  nearby so there are so many ways they [TS]

  could do this we don't really know how [TS]

  they did yeah [TS]

  and that that totally makes sense and [TS]

  like you said I don't think we're going [TS]

  to know unless a little birdie reaches [TS]

  out hint hint it just was it was [TS]

  interesting to me because it felt like [TS]

  and I wish I had taken better notes or [TS]

  had paid more attention but this like [TS]

  happened in the midst of me doing [TS]

  something with Declan and I took enough [TS]

  of a note to remind myself that I wanted [TS]

  to talk to you guys about it but I [TS]

  didn't have the time to document you [TS]

  know repro steps or anything like that [TS]

  anyway so the point is it just felt like [TS]

  the sort of thing where maybe it was [TS]

  being proxied by Apple and that was kind [TS]

  of cool I mean it was again the behavior [TS]

  was what I wanted it's not like the [TS]

  behavior was bad it was just unexpected [TS]

  that's all so we'll see I don't know [TS]

  we'll figure it out one way or the other [TS]

  but I think all of your less fancy but [TS]

  also more probable interpretations make [TS]

  perfect sense to me so who knows John [TS]

  apparently everything's coming up [TS]

  siracusa this week because that's a [TS]

  reference by the way Twitter if ik for [TS]

  Mac it is back and it is out so tell me [TS]

  about it yeah this is quick follow-up [TS]

  people asked I think up here in the [TS]

  wrong section oh you know what I mean [TS]

  it's it's yeah anyway because we've [TS]

  asked about it and asked ADP hey how [TS]

  you're liking the the Phoenix betas [TS]

  which was the name of this application [TS]

  when it was testing for the Kickstarter [TS]

  things this is that whole Kickstarter [TS]

  that a lot of people funded to get them [TS]

  to bring back their Mac application [TS]

  which they have that languish because [TS]

  they just were no customers for it and [TS]

  then the Kickstarter gave them enough [TS]

  money to remake the app and so I've been [TS]

  using it for a long time and it's great [TS]

  and as I said in the last guest about [TS]

  this I'm joining it that's exactly what [TS]

  I wanted now it is out for everybody to [TS]

  buy it is on the Mac App Store I think [TS]

  there might let me click through is [TS]

  there a direct download I don't even [TS]

  know anyway Twitter AFRICOM slash Mac [TS]

  the link will be in the show notes if [TS]

  you're interested in a Mac Twitter [TS]

  client and you don't like any of the Mac [TS]

  to our clients that are out there check [TS]

  this one out it's got an adorable icon [TS]

  the most important feature of this [TS]

  Twitter application as far as I'm [TS]

  concerned is that it has my beloved [TS]

  unified timeline which gives you a list [TS]

  of all the tweets that are you know [TS]

  related to you [TS]

  mentions replies direct messages and all [TS]

  the tweets from the people you follow [TS]

  and their RT it's just one big long [TS]

  chronological timeline from the past to [TS]

  the future that's it and you have the [TS]

  other views to it don't just just see my [TS]

  mentions direct messages searches all [TS]

  sorts of stuff that's all there too but [TS]

  the important feature is the unified [TS]

  timeline sorting and it's just a nice [TS]

  Twitter client so check it out if you're [TS]

  interested yeah so and I kept oh and the [TS]

  other important feature is on iOS the [TS]

  Twitter freak has always been updated on [TS]

  iOS and it continues to be updated [TS]

  because it's you know more viable [TS]

  platform than Mac these days and you're [TS]

  reading position is synced between the [TS]

  Mac and iOS version we're just super [TS]

  important because ever read a bunch of [TS]

  stuff in my phone and I come to iMac I [TS]

  wanted to realize what I read on my [TS]

  phone in my one big chronological on [TS]

  line and it does and it's great and it's [TS]

  got laser beams if you know where to [TS]

  find them that's awesome all right John [TS]

  tell me about Apple TV gaming this is [TS]

  from was it the September event that's [TS]

  of stuff from the September event [TS]

  lurking down there for a long time and I [TS]

  didn't want this one to fall at the end [TS]

  do you remember [TS]

  they did the gaming segment in that [TS]

  event yeah there was that that journey [TS]

  or whatever it is [TS]

  knock off or not knock off what is it [TS]

  that game company that game company made [TS]

  another game or something like that I'm [TS]

  trying not to offend you and I think I'm [TS]

  failing yeah I never liked the name of [TS]

  that company that game companies it's [TS]

  like clever initially but then it's like [TS]

  all lowercase oh shit anyway B so this [TS]

  is Apple TV in gaming we talked a lot [TS]

  about this before about whether they [TS]

  should ship a controller with it and [TS]

  whether they should allow people to ship [TS]

  games that require a controller which [TS]

  they flip-flopped on and now they're [TS]

  saying yes they will and how viable is [TS]

  it as a gaming platform versus things [TS]

  like the switch or a real game console [TS]

  or PC or Mac gaming even the steam and [TS]

  everything and so here Apple is again at [TS]

  an important keynote spending time to [TS]

  talk about it was the Apple TV 4k but [TS]

  you know the gaming angle on and they [TS]

  brought out on stage you know a third [TS]

  party game developer very well known in [TS]

  the industry because they are the makers [TS]

  of the journey which is a game that I [TS]

  love and a couple other arts [TS]

  two games they made before that which [TS]

  they're also bringing died or at least [TS]

  they brought flower to iOS which was [TS]

  erroneously identified as their first [TS]

  game but it was not their first game [TS]

  anyway that I mean that seems like an [TS]

  aside but I think it factors into what [TS]

  I'm going to say and a little bit about [TS]

  it and this is it's not bringing out the [TS]

  big guns it's not like they you know [TS]

  Nintendo is on stage with their D do [TS]

  that with Mary run I think but it's not [TS]

  like you know Apple buys Nintendo or [TS]

  like you know Ubisoft or EA announce all [TS]

  their future games will be on Apple TV [TS]

  or like but it is significant in that [TS]

  getting that game company to port their [TS]

  games and to make their new game which [TS]

  is called sky on Apple's platform that [TS]

  only has significance for people who [TS]

  follow the game industry for people who [TS]

  were in two games for most people [TS]

  they've never heard of that game company [TS]

  they don't know what flower is or [TS]

  haven't played journey like you have to [TS]

  be somewhat involved in the gaming [TS]

  industry to understand why it's in any [TS]

  way impressive the Jenova Chen is up on [TS]

  stage for them you don't have to be so [TS]

  much in the game industry to be [TS]

  impressed the Miyamoto is telling you [TS]

  the Mara is coming to iOS right lots of [TS]

  name recognition there but that game [TS]

  company is more obscuring yet if you [TS]

  were to get someone who knew a lot about [TS]

  gaming to say what's one company you can [TS]

  get on stage that will make people think [TS]

  that you're getting more serious about [TS]

  gaming without you having to spend [TS]

  billions of dollars to actually buy a [TS]

  Nintendo or convince one of the big game [TS]

  makers to put all their future games on [TS]

  your platform or whatever you could find [TS]

  a company that basically bankrupted [TS]

  itself producing journey had an [TS]

  exclusive contract with but Sony and [TS]

  PlayStation which is why journey isn't [TS]

  on other platforms and would be in the [TS]

  market to say we're trying to start the [TS]

  company back up again who's got a bunch [TS]

  of money to dump on our head so we'll [TS]

  make our next game for their platform [TS]

  and I'm sure I'm sure Sony approached [TS]

  them because you know they made a lot of [TS]

  money for Sony with journey and flour [TS]

  and flow and you know the line yards and [TS]

  probably Microsoft approached them and [TS]

  here is the unlikely third [TS]

  suitor in Apple who has a lot of money [TS]

  to dump on people's heads and for [TS]

  whatever reason maybe they dumped more [TS]

  money or maybe that game company in [TS]

  Genova cham we're tired of dealing with [TS]

  Sony or Microsoft or you know whatever [TS]

  they went with Apple and so they're [TS]

  making sky on Apple TV now if anyone who [TS]

  follows the game industry knows that [TS]

  exclusive platform exclusives are things [TS]

  that people love to announce but they're [TS]

  only really exclusive in certain more [TS]

  extreme cases where it's kind of a [TS]

  second-party developer or a very tight [TS]

  relationship where this will never be on [TS]

  another platform because we've really [TS]

  typed the rights but a lot of times [TS]

  things are exclusive to Xbox exclusive [TS]

  to PlayStation for three months for six [TS]

  months for less time that timed [TS]

  exclusives they call them which is like [TS]

  so you mean not exclusive then right [TS]

  this is a multi-platform game it just [TS]

  goes on one platform first or it's a [TS]

  multi-platform game and ships on one [TS]

  three days before everything else in [TS]

  this special you know features for that [TS]

  one anyway I'm not clear whether it's [TS]

  either way they gave enough money to [TS]

  help the development of this game and [TS]

  also money to port their old games that [TS]

  they were able to I said I don't think [TS]

  they can port journey because I think [TS]

  Sony's got the rights to that all [TS]

  wrapped up but we'll see yeah I mean [TS]

  that's speaking about if Apple wants [TS]

  journey I'm sure they can give Sony a [TS]

  bucketful of money and they would get it [TS]

  bringing all those to Apple TV and it's [TS]

  a little bit of a head-scratcher because [TS]

  like so you're trying to appeal to [TS]

  people who know what that game company [TS]

  is and understand what a great game [TS]

  journey was but those people don't take [TS]

  Apple TV seriously as a gaming platform [TS]

  because nobody thinks Apple TV seriously [TS]

  is a gaming platform but that's the only [TS]

  announcement you're gonna make and the [TS]

  question I have about this announcement [TS]

  an Apple TV in gaming is like what's [TS]

  going on Apple you are you serious or is [TS]

  this just like another is this your [TS]

  carpool karaoke [TS]

  of gaming like you try to do the carpool [TS]

  karaoke was popular right people like [TS]

  that will try that like or is this your [TS]

  I'm spending two billion dollars in [TS]

  hiring all the showrunners from you know [TS]

  fancy shows and that are successful in [TS]

  other networks like it seems like I [TS]

  would say that Apple still is not [TS]

  serious about gaming doesn't understand [TS]

  what it takes to be a player in the [TS]

  gaming industry but on the other hand [TS]

  wanted to have something nice to say [TS]

  about gaming or maybe like their close [TS]

  personal friends with Jenova Chen I [TS]

  don't even know but it's a mysterious [TS]

  announcement for me I'm assuming sky [TS]

  will be a timed exclusive and not only [TS]

  exclusive an Apple TV because come on no [TS]

  one's like who's gonna who's gonna buy [TS]

  an Apple TV to play sky some [TS]

  artsy-fartsy gaming nerds how many [TS]

  copies of sky are they're gonna sell if [TS]

  it literally was exclusive to iOS and [TS]

  Apple TV who knows maybe they'll sell [TS]

  tons of them but I don't think Mario run [TS]

  has way more written name recognition [TS]

  than a game that no one's heard of from [TS]

  a game developer there's no one hurt no [TS]

  one's heard of and even merrier run [TS]

  yeah it made a lot of money but Zelda [TS]

  made more you know it's selling a bunch [TS]

  of switches made more hell did NES [TS]

  classic and SNES classic probably made [TS]

  more so I don't know like I would not [TS]

  have predicted this and and it's still [TS]

  mysterious to me and I don't know if I'm [TS]

  being like biased against Apple thing [TS]

  though Apple never understands game is [TS]

  like what do they have to do to prove to [TS]

  you understand they have to prove that [TS]

  they understand games they have to prove [TS]

  that like do they know what it takes to [TS]

  make things that people want to play [TS]

  games on and the Apple TV it's not a [TS]

  thing that people want to play games on [TS]

  now a place guy on my Apple TV if that's [TS]

  the only place I get it but I would much [TS]

  rather play it on my playstation I would [TS]

  rather play it on my Mac Mac's you can't [TS]

  play games on those right Apple as far [TS]

  as Apple's concerned you can I don't [TS]

  know so I find that people asking what I [TS]

  thought if I said like journey so much I [TS]

  find it interesting but also very [TS]

  frustrating and I continue to give Apple [TS]

  the frowny face when it comes to gaming [TS]

  on Apple TV in America that matter [TS]

  because comp come on like you know valve [TS]

  was nice enough to make steam on the Mac [TS]

  ship with good GPUs support OpenGL [TS]

  better let us play games on the Mac but [TS]

  anyway that's that's all I have to say [TS]

  about this that's all [TS]

  oh that's all I tried to make it short [TS]

  because I have deep feelings about it [TS]

  but that's the short as I can make it oh [TS]

  and I wanted to hear are you two going [TS]

  to you're a good examples of people who [TS]

  don't give a damn about that game [TS]

  company and don't really care about [TS]

  journey and you know which game come [TS]

  didn't know yeah [TS]

  didn't know the name sky until it was [TS]

  announced on stage despite the fact that [TS]

  they spent years working on this game or [TS]

  I don't remember [TS]

  again the name was out but everything [TS]

  about the game had been discussed for a [TS]

  long time because in gaming circles but [TS]

  are you going to buy this game on your [TS]

  Apple TV if you didn't already have a [TS]

  believes would you buy one to play this [TS]

  game John I don't even have time to play [TS]

  the switch and you think I'm gonna buy a [TS]

  game for the Apple TV so you're not [TS]

  gonna buy this it's like absolutely not [TS]

  you did by journey though didn't you [TS]

  yeah yes I did and I borrowed a [TS]

  PlayStation to play it but and I'm glad [TS]

  I did don't get me wrong it was a great [TS]

  game but mabye and play this game as if [TS]

  I get browbeat into it from you which is [TS]

  quite possible and it's really do I want [TS]

  anyone playing games with like an Apple [TS]

  TV remote am I gonna make you buy a [TS]

  controller jail yeah that's never gonna [TS]

  happen I guess any one of mine I [TS]

  probably never use them again so I guess [TS]

  that means same story for you then I had [TS]

  so when I saw Apple TV gaming sky in the [TS]

  shownotes document I had forgotten what [TS]

  that even was so impactful announcement [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  I'm not a huge game nerd or even gamer [TS]

  at all [TS]

  I am currently very much enjoying [TS]

  stardew valley but I I tend to really [TS]

  enjoy like one game a year maybe and [TS]

  then that's it so I really would not [TS]

  still call myself a gamer it I'm sure [TS]

  it's going to be interesting to gamers [TS]

  if you come on here and tell me like you [TS]

  have to play this game I'll play it I'll [TS]

  buy it I'll play it whatever but that [TS]

  would be the only reason I would do it [TS]

  the Apple TV as much as I wanted it to [TS]

  be a gaming platform when the fourth gen [TS]

  came out and when the App Store for it [TS]

  launched and everything it just hasn't [TS]

  panned out and Apple has done pretty [TS]

  much nothing to help that and you know [TS]

  they still they modified the rules so [TS]

  the games now can at least require a [TS]

  controller if it just is not going to [TS]

  work with the Siri remote but you know [TS]

  that it there are so many reasons why [TS]

  people don't even think of the Apple TV [TS]

  as a gaming platform and if you're gonna [TS]

  have to go out and spend 50 bucks on a [TS]

  controller to make it [TS]

  no one's gonna do that so the the fact [TS]

  is no matter how hard Apple tries to [TS]

  make it a gaming platform which honestly [TS]

  doesn't seem like the try that hard but [TS]

  if they are trying it's probably futile [TS]

  until it comes with a type of remote [TS]

  that can be used as a controller [TS]

  reasonably well in the box and I don't [TS]

  think it's ever going to happen so as [TS]

  long as that's not gonna be the case [TS]

  like no one's gonna go out there and buy [TS]

  an extra controller for 50 bucks just to [TS]

  play the very small handful of decent [TS]

  games that are available for the Apple [TS]

  TV [TS]

  so Apple has actually done a bunch of [TS]

  stuff in service of gaming which is the [TS]

  mysterious thing like all the stuff [TS]

  they're doing with metal and all their [TS]

  WEC sessions and all their sort of [TS]

  toolkits for making sprite based in 3d [TS]

  games like they're doing a lot of work [TS]

  and it's like they don't it's like they [TS]

  don't understand how games are made in [TS]

  the rest of the industry like nobody's [TS]

  gonna use all they're pretty impressive [TS]

  proprietary frameworks and stuff to make [TS]

  really good performing games on Apple TV [TS]

  anyway maybe on iOS they're motivated [TS]

  because you can sell a lot of games if [TS]

  you get the right one in iOS but an [TS]

  Apple TV like the only thing they're [TS]

  gonna do is like the best thing they've [TS]

  done is say okay well we made sure that [TS]

  unity has support for metal and all [TS]

  those other stuff like that the various [TS]

  game engines and the Unreal Engine and [TS]

  all that stuff have reasonable support [TS]

  for the underlying frameworks but [TS]

  they're putting money into it and it's [TS]

  like is it it's hard to tell is it like [TS]

  oh this is mostly just for phone games [TS]

  because people make a lot of money on [TS]

  phone games and by the way it happens to [TS]

  also benefit Apple TV because if you're [TS]

  trying to if you're trying to compete in [TS]

  the games market you have to you have to [TS]

  do what the other companies do have [TS]

  gaming platforms you have to court [TS]

  talent and develop talent and get people [TS]

  to make games for your system and make [TS]

  sure that multi-platform games are [TS]

  available on your system unless your [TS]

  name is in tendo which and you have tons [TS]

  of first party properties that can [TS]

  apparently keep your company alive [TS]

  forever despite not doing a good job [TS]

  courting third-party success because you [TS]

  keep making less powerful hardware but [TS]

  anyway you have to do you have to put in [TS]

  a lot of work it's kind of like what [TS]

  they're doing with TV you have to hire [TS]

  the right people and they have to go get [TS]

  the actors and the stories and like it [TS]

  is a lot of work to compete in the [TS]

  gaming industry you can't just say [TS]

  here's the hardware and we [TS]

  you know gave some money to Jenova Chen [TS]

  so here's one cool game and like if you [TS]

  build it they won't come you have to go [TS]

  get them you have to do all the things [TS]

  that Sony and Microsoft do and Nintendo [TS]

  even you know it to some degree [TS]

  do in this market or you know if you [TS]

  want to be like Nintendo make a bunch of [TS]

  amazing first party games that just [TS]

  system sellers on their own and but and [TS]

  they don't have the back catalogue for [TS]

  that anyway so it's frustrating to me [TS]

  because every time I see all the gaming [TS]

  sessions WABC I'm impressed by what I [TS]

  see but I can't map that to like Apple [TS]

  TV gaming it's all even though that they [TS]

  talk about it and they put a powerful [TS]

  GPU and the Apple TV and they say it's a [TS]

  platform for gaming it just it just [TS]

  seems like a way for you to make phone [TS]

  games which is fine that's the one area [TS]

  where they have a little display even [TS]

  phone games use third-party engines for [TS]

  a lot of stuff but Apple TV it just [TS]

  doesn't seem to be going anywhere which [TS]

  is I don't know it's almost I wish they [TS]

  would just like not keep making these [TS]

  sort of half-hearted efforts and instead [TS]

  just admit that Apple TV is in a gaming [TS]

  platform now all that said well before [TS]

  we finally this topic one thing I will [TS]

  suggest is that flour which is an older [TS]

  game made by that game company is [TS]

  actually a really good fit for iOS and [TS]

  for Apple TV because it's entirely [TS]

  motion controlled I'm assuming it is it [TS]

  is in the PlayStation so even with the [TS]

  Apple TV remote you don't have to touch [TS]

  any buttons you just tilt the remote [TS]

  forward and back inside I don't know I [TS]

  haven't actually tried it with the Apple [TS]

  TV remote but I'm saying if anything is [TS]

  gonna be reasonably playable with that [TS]

  terrible remote or just on a phone or [TS]

  something an entirely motion control [TS]

  game is and flour is fine it's cute it's [TS]

  nice game if you're not really into [TS]

  games and just want something pretty to [TS]

  look at and the fun activity that [TS]

  actually does build to something towards [TS]

  the end if you play through the whole [TS]

  game I would recommend downloading the [TS]

  port of flower it is actually a good fit [TS]

  for all of Apple's platforms unlike so [TS]

  many other games that just don't work [TS]

  without a controller like Margot said [TS]

  it's all play sky and tell you how it is [TS]

  all right thanks this week Squarespace [TS]

  audible and fracture we'll see you next [TS]

  week now the show is over [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  ey L is s so that's Casey less and a are [TS]

  Co AR m auntie Marco Arment [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  looking at the expensive Volvo yeah I [TS]

  knew it was the thing but I'd never [TS]

  really read that much into it [TS]

  SUV so who cares sometimes you want [TS]

  sometimes John you want space [TS]

  if only there is a way to get space [TS]

  without making it really tall [TS]

  yeah and how you gonna do that Marco a [TS]

  large sedan a hatchback a wagon a [TS]

  crossover a minivan it's all sorts of [TS]

  ways to do that no crossovers minivan is [TS]

  acceptable answer hatchback is not [TS]

  crossover is not enough room in a [TS]

  rolls-royce you need to make the entire [TS]

  vehicle 20 feet high but no the problem [TS]

  is you okay I was sure John I'll buy the [TS]

  $300,000 rolls-royce just to avoid the [TS]

  $50,000 lifted car Mercedes s-class like [TS]

  it's not like you need to make an SUV to [TS]

  have room in a car yeah have you seen a [TS]

  mature Anders in my car we don't like [TS]

  SUVs and in Casey you don't like SUVs [TS]

  either but you have one now so you feel [TS]

  compelled to defend the form there so [TS]

  there's some modicum of that that is [TS]

  true without question however I really [TS]

  like Aaron's car a lot I really honestly [TS]

  do it's like you just like nice cars but [TS]

  you know well that's true it was a nice [TS]

  sedan you would like it a lot too yes [TS]

  and I and I have sat in a stationary at [TS]

  what the hell's are called s90 basically [TS]

  her car but low and it it's it's eerie [TS]

  because it feels on the inside exactly [TS]

  the same until you look you know past [TS]

  the second row because obviously Erin's [TS]

  cars third row but anyway in so many [TS]

  ways it feels the same like the same [TS]

  infotainment same cushiness etc etc the [TS]

  cars like 300 feet long but I don't know [TS]

  it just feels wonky to me when it's that [TS]

  low I think because I was exposed to the [TS]

  xc90 as a SUV although it's funny [TS]

  because to kind of parlay this into [TS]

  something that's not the right we're [TS]

  used to the word but whatever to turn [TS]

  this into something to pivot into [TS]

  something else [TS]

  the I am taking the BMW in in a couple [TS]

  of weeks for state inspection for an [TS]

  airbag recall maybe if they actually [TS]

  have one in stock [TS]

  and I had to put a little coolant in the [TS]

  car what unit of itself is not that [TS]

  remarkable but it's a person we've had [TS]

  to do it so I asked them so you know hey [TS]

  just go ahead and make sure this thing [TS]

  isn't about to explode which means [TS]

  they're going to find a reason why it's [TS]

  about to explode and this will be [TS]

  another five thousand dollar bill well [TS]

  anyway I bring all this stuff because [TS]

  the sales dude called me and said oh I [TS]

  see you're bringing your car in in a [TS]

  couple weeks [TS]

  yes I am would you is there something I [TS]

  could do to put you in a new BMW to [TS]

  which I just laughed and laughed and [TS]

  laughed and laughed someone said to him [TS]

  I've put $15,000 in this car in five [TS]

  years there's no freaking way I'm buying [TS]

  another BMW he probably did believe you [TS]

  as much as we do yeah I'm not buying a [TS]

  BMW no you're gonna buy something faster [TS]

  but worse probably actually to be honest [TS]

  that is an extremely accurate assessment [TS]

  if I end up with the Golf R because [TS]

  everything that you've said that you are [TS]

  really wanting is like faster but worse [TS]

  you know correct at least that you would [TS]

  actually buy like the Quadrifoglio or [TS]

  whatever it was maybe that one like [TS]

  might that might overall be better [TS]

  depending on the transmission severity [TS]

  but yeah but you won't you will net you [TS]

  would actually buy that one correct so I [TS]

  still continue to read all sorts of bad [TS]

  stories about reliability for for tests [TS]

  fleet cars for like you know car [TS]

  magazines and they usually get the good [TS]

  ones so I would yeah although I like it [TS]

  Marcos most recent mispronunciation [TS]

  because it contains fugly in it it's a [TS]

  beautiful car it's a beautiful car I [TS]

  will I will [TS]

  you are wrong John you are wrong is your [TS]

  given name John or Jonathan it's John [TS]

  isn't it mmm another car sorry it seems [TS]

  like it seems like a great car it seems [TS]

  like it's unreliable and I do not like [TS]

  how it looks [TS]

  no I mean first of all you can tell it's [TS]

  John instead of Jonathan because there's [TS]

  an H and he's Italian there's probably [TS]

  somebody out there who spells Jonathan [TS]

  with the H but I'm sure it's a very very [TS]

  rare and second of all there's no [TS]

  there's no Italian Jonathan's they're [TS]

  all John's that's true and then second [TS]

  of all a third of all whatever a number [TS]

  of up to now D I would say that the [TS]

  Quadrifoglio is probably significantly [TS]

  more attractive than the current [TS]

  generation of BMW M cars [TS]

  I would say it is more attractive I [TS]

  don't know if I would say it's [TS]

  considerably more attractive so my [TS]

  product communications person from Alfa [TS]

  Romeo North America wrote me today we [TS]

  all have a God that sounded extremely [TS]

  self reflecting what a title my product [TS]

  communications found for me of American [TS]

  ever writes me at all [TS]

  what really so they they talk to you [TS]

  about products it's like I want to [TS]

  communicate with you about products this [TS]

  is not where I wanted this to go and I [TS]

  recognize that this is exactly what I [TS]

  desire I remember a title it's exactly [TS]

  what I did but anyway what do I call him [TS]

  a product communication specialist or [TS]

  whatever I already forgot to email yeah [TS]

  so anyway so I've been bothering him [TS]

  constantly because the the people that [TS]

  actually have the car don't want to talk [TS]

  to me apparently [TS]

  but can't believe they're not flying you [TS]

  to Europe to try the stick and by the [TS]

  way the check points out that you should [TS]

  ask them for the SUV since that's what [TS]

  you like because they make Oh kindly [TS]

  kiss the widest part of my your into [TS]

  might seem weird when it's down so low [TS]

  might seem weird John I hate you so much [TS]

  you know what about well actually you [TS]

  know what's worse did I have this [TS]

  conversation with you guys on the show I [TS]

  don't think I did the worst part of this [TS]

  is that I've decided my short list for [TS]

  my next car obviously go far would you [TS]

  there are two other options I would like [TS]

  you to guess either one of you what [TS]

  those other two options a Honda Accord [TS]

  no no don't look at it it's too slow [TS]

  it's too slow no the other option is [TS]

  going to be the that that Cadillac [TS]

  rectangle thing no good guess but no no [TS]

  no no it's automatic only okay all right [TS]

  so all three of these cars all three of [TS]

  these cars I can get with a stick [TS]

  brand-new [TS]

  all right so Golf R it's probably not [TS]

  the Jeep Grand Cherokee whatever it was [TS]

  that you reviewed can't care that was a [TS]

  stick yeah [TS]

  the hell's I don't know not an Audi I'm [TS]

  gonna say since you have SUV envy and [TS]

  there aren't that many SUVs available at [TS]

  the stick I'm gonna guess maybe a Jeep [TS]

  Wrangler because those I think are [TS]

  available with stick that is one of the [TS]

  three cars yeah that is me I'm not [TS]

  kidding by the way I am not kidding that [TS]

  is my I am abandoning all pretense of [TS]

  luxury [TS]

  I am abandoning yet all thoughts of [TS]

  speed and comfort and screw it I'm just [TS]

  gonna I'm just gonna go the other [TS]

  direction when I get a golf cart what [TS]

  are you doing John all kidding aside as [TS]

  much as I love to beat up on you too [TS]

  have you ever been either of you in a [TS]

  Jeep Wrangler that does that has the top [TS]

  off or down and and does not have doors [TS]

  on it I understand that's why that's why [TS]

  I said a golf cart it's fun it's fun to [TS]

  ride a golf cart do right and does not [TS]

  have doors on it that's the key the fact [TS]

  that you can just take the doors right [TS]

  off is amazing yeah it's great fun you [TS]

  know I there has never been a time when [TS]

  I've been sitting in a car and thought [TS]

  you know this car needs fewer doors like [TS]

  you know when I used to work at the [TS]

  parks department had a lot of vehicles [TS]

  that were basically this they're like [TS]

  old trucks or what is it the brand [TS]

  Cushman or whatever like thing being [TS]

  four by fours that you basically sit on [TS]

  kind of it's fun but it's not that's not [TS]

  car and if I was Eve you live anywhere [TS]

  with whether that's there's no go you [TS]

  need if you don't you just you just [TS]

  tempting death like why not want to get [TS]

  a super bike yeah yeah I'll just get [TS]

  myself a what's what's the ridiculous [TS]

  one that they always turbocharged how [TS]

  god I'm drawing a blank now Hayabusa [TS]

  there it is I'll just get a Hayabusa and [TS]

  I'll be fine so okay so you got one of [TS]

  the three well two of the three actually [TS]

  cuz I gave you the Golf R oh man so John [TS]

  what do you I mean what else is [TS]

  available in the stick mw2 series it's [TS]

  not a BMW yeah I it should be it should [TS]

  be the two series but it's not mmm I [TS]

  need I need more stability makes the a [TS]

  for us with sticks there it is there it [TS]

  is because you enjoyed your renting of [TS]

  the silver one well I did although the [TS]

  MMI which is their knockoff I drive used [TS]

  to be abysmally bad not as bad as a Jeep [TS]

  but really bad but that being said [TS]

  they supposedly have a new one and you [TS]

  can get the a four with a stick and it [TS]

  has all the fancy like you know digital [TS]

  dash that I'm sure John hates and it and [TS]

  it has car play and I don't hate digital [TS]

  dashes oh you mean like you mean the the [TS]

  instrument cluster in front of you [TS]

  behind the steering wheel right [TS]

  correct correct I don't hate that no I'm [TS]

  surprised well anyway so it has all that [TS]

  jazz see but see I I think I will still [TS]

  I will still be correct that you what [TS]

  you'll waiting will be faster but worse [TS]

  although actually if you get out it [TS]

  might not be faster it will not be fit [TS]

  well probably not it depends on how how [TS]

  well I can drive my car to me like every [TS]

  my experience without ease and looking [TS]

  at them and test driving them and having [TS]

  you know occasional friends that have [TS]

  them and stuff it just seems like it's [TS]

  like BMW but everything looks a little [TS]

  bit better and works a little bit worse [TS]

  I my limited experience with Audi I [TS]

  would agree with that wholeheartedly the [TS]

  outside of them looked pretty good on [TS]

  some of them oh yes they're styling it [TS]

  looks a little better yeah yeah that's [TS]

  what I'm saying [TS]

  and I think that's a fair assessment [TS]

  Vizio these interior styling people [TS]

  usually like to others that you're [TS]

  talking about I think either way in or [TS]

  out [TS]

  yeah I think they're they're a safer bet [TS]

  visually should try try the s8 and try [TS]

  it and you don't cannot the si at the s4 [TS]

  you can get anymore [TS]

  yeah how do you makes very few sticks [TS]

  you should when your the Honda [TS]

  dealership you should also test drive [TS]

  the Civic type-r which I know you're not [TS]

  gonna get cuz it looks like a matchbox [TS]

  car but you just try it anyway I would [TS]

  love to actually you're absolutely [TS]

  everything you just said is absolutely [TS]

  correct and I would I would definitely [TS]

  give the new Accord a shot in all snark [TS]

  and jokes aside as much as I love to [TS]

  give you a hard time about your love of [TS]

  Accords I am really impressed by just on [TS]

  paper having never seen one in person [TS]

  having never driven one I'm really [TS]

  impressed by the new Accord and I think [TS]

  Honda's finally making smart choices [TS]

  which by that I mean choices that make [TS]

  KC happy they're making smart choices [TS]

  with the new Accord making it available [TS]

  with the big motor with a stick etc etc [TS]

  the review that I shared with you and I [TS]

  don't remember where it was so I'm not [TS]

  gonna put it in the show notes that was [TS]

  I think it might have been it was not [TS]

  terribly flattering but I still stand by [TS]

  this is the first time I've looked at an [TS]

  accord and thought you know what that's [TS]

  a possibility and for everyone saying s3 [TS]

  and rs3 and [TS]

  chat those are not available with a [TS]

  stick in the US unless I'm mistaken in [TS]

  either way I'm not really sure what I'm [TS]

  gaining over a Golf R I need to break [TS]

  myself with a golf thing a Golf R 93 [TS]

  Series is you know really minimal gains [TS]

  but lots of price increases over the [TS]

  high-end golf series like it's really [TS]

  because it's just it's just a luxury [TS]

  golf that's all it is and it's not like [TS]

  I don't feel like you're getting what [TS]

  you're paying for necessarily with that [TS]

  one aren't you getting a jury generation [TS]

  came in [TS]

  that's better than all these cars that [TS]

  you've described I want something that I [TS]

  can hypothetically put two children in [TS]

  you have this giant school bus for the [TS]

  kids oh you're such a jerk the vehicle [TS]

  that can hold like your kids and [TS]

  neighbor kids it for you for your car [TS]

  just get it use Cayman and it's better [TS]

  than all the cars you've listed yeah [TS]

  although talk about maintenance I mean [TS]

  how much is it Cayman seriously could be [TS]

  worth it to BMW I mean before they [TS]

  turbocharged it the one that do on the [TS]

  jury got that's the generation you want [TS]

  I know exactly what you're thinking of [TS]

  what what years that I don't know [TS]

  Porsche no no just go back through [TS]

  Gerry's timeline and see when you [TS]

  something before they before they change [TS]

  the name to 718 and okay here you go so [TS]

  I'm looking on auto trader [TS]

  coincidentally just as you're saying [TS]

  that model name clarification how [TS]

  quickly can you look things up an [TS]

  arbitrator fairly quickly is it like a [TS]

  dedicated hardware key on your keyboard [TS]

  there's immediately launches auto trader [TS]

  and I feel like if I was ever to look [TS]

  give a serious look at a Porsche Porsche [TS]

  however it's not my apology if I were to [TS]

  ever give a serious look at that brand [TS]

  it would take me like three weeks of [TS]

  research to just figure out what the [TS]

  hell I'm looking at because there are so [TS]

  many little name variations then add or [TS]

  subtract 30 grand and wait wait what [TS]

  what is that and that's is it that much [TS]

  better what does that mean and yeah but [TS]

  with the Cayman at this generation like [TS]

  even the one with the slow it the cheap [TS]

  only the slow engine is still a great [TS]

  car yeah like there's no there's nothing [TS]

  you know and it's just a question of how [TS]

  much do you want to get ripped off for [TS]

  the fancy-schmancy one and in fact it [TS]

  might be a mistake like oh I [TS]

  accidentally got the one with carbon [TS]

  ceramic brakes because they're kind of [TS]

  an [TS]

  in daily use and you're not gonna be on [TS]

  a race track and that would be a bad [TS]

  move but you can tell because it'll be [TS]

  an extra 20 grand in the price [TS]