Hello Internet

H.I. #90: Pumpkin Pressure


00:00:00   when we were suggesting the title of the

00:00:01   last episode I suggested a swarm of

00:00:05   emojis or something like that and then

00:00:08   you changed my plural emojis to the

00:00:10   other plural of emojis that being emoji

00:00:13   mm-hmm yeah but I think I said emojis

00:00:16   during the podcast so obviously a couple

00:00:18   of parents got on to me and said

00:00:19   logically technically the plural of

00:00:22   emojis is emojis is that what this

00:00:25   sounded like that's what they sounded

00:00:26   like in my head of course so obviously I

00:00:28   went investigating about the plural of

00:00:30   emoji and I've read various articles and

00:00:33   I've come to the conclusion that there

00:00:36   is no conclusion you obviously believe

00:00:39   the plural of emoji should be emoji well

00:00:42   am I mistaken to thinking that it's a

00:00:44   Japanese word that is that where it

00:00:46   comes from that is correct but we're not

00:00:48   speaking Japanese of course we're using

00:00:49   it in the English language but I think

00:00:51   when we were talking I bet I said emojis

00:00:53   right I think in regular context it's

00:00:58   very easy to say emojis I think that's

00:01:00   perfectly fine but perhaps when you are

00:01:02   sitting down you're putting on your

00:01:05   formal wear to write a formal title for

00:01:09   a podcast you know nothing like a title

00:01:11   you want to make sure everything is

00:01:13   buttoned up all tight you have your

00:01:15   capitalization all correct you have all

00:01:17   of your punctuation in the right place

00:01:19   everything is formatted properly it

00:01:21   feels like then you should go with emoji

00:01:24   as the plural because that feels like

00:01:26   the most formal version of it and maybe

00:01:29   emojis is perfectly fine but is a little

00:01:33   bit of a laid-back conversational tone

00:01:35   okay do you agree with that I hear your

00:01:38   argument mmm but I don't agree I think

00:01:40   the plural of emoji should be and will

00:01:43   become emojis despite the fact that it's

00:01:46   not in Japanese not all words co-opted

00:01:49   from other languages also co-opt those

00:01:52   rules some do some don't there's a

00:01:55   really good article I read in the

00:01:56   Atlantic and they pointed out sushi

00:01:58   which is pluralized to sushi but tsunami

00:02:02   is pluralized

00:02:03   to tsunamis my wife says Sushi's when

00:02:07   she's talking about plural like this is

00:02:08   a tray full of sushis oh I've never

00:02:10   heard that I wouldn't say that

00:02:11   so I suppose funnily enough I wouldn't

00:02:13   take that to sushi but I would say there

00:02:15   have been three tsunamis in the last two

00:02:17   years hmm

00:02:19   so there's no rule even with the

00:02:20   Japanese words that we co-opted

00:02:22   sometimes we follow the Japanese rule

00:02:24   sometimes we don't and I think in the

00:02:25   case of emoji and emojis

00:02:27   I think the S is required for clarity

00:02:30   hmm and I think over time that's the way

00:02:33   it has to go but hey you know I'm just

00:02:35   one guy

00:02:35   if you said there were three tsunami in

00:02:37   the last year I would feel ridiculously

00:02:39   pretentious yeah but I think saying this

00:02:42   is a plate full of sushis is adorable

00:02:44   that's also a clear winner here in this

00:02:46   book this is also the problem with the

00:02:47   ipler alike isn't this isn't the whole I

00:02:50   plural part of this thing where English

00:02:53   just decided to borrow a bunch of rules

00:02:54   from Latin that don't make any sense

00:02:56   like isn't that the whole where the

00:02:57   whole like cacti thing comes from I have

00:03:00   some vague memory that like the I plural

00:03:02   is a ridiculous import into the language

00:03:04   in the first place it does sound good on

00:03:06   some words though I'm still a big fan of

00:03:07   ambu lie as the plural of ambiences it's

00:03:10   a way better plural than what we're

00:03:12   stuck with really yeah but you wouldn't

00:03:14   use it like you wouldn't say to me oh my

00:03:15   goodness for ambulators went past what's

00:03:17   going on I might in the circumstance it

00:03:20   rarely presents itself but it's going to

00:03:22   be a golden moment when I can use Ambu

00:03:24   lie just in a conversational tone some

00:03:27   day the problem is like obviously you

00:03:29   would say it to be funny right and it

00:03:30   would make people laugh right but

00:03:32   normally when you're talking about

00:03:33   incidents that involve multiple

00:03:35   ambulances that is not a time to be

00:03:36   funny that seems like it's the time that

00:03:38   you need to be funny the most what is

00:03:40   humor Brady if not the thing that we use

00:03:43   to defend ourselves from the horrors of

00:03:45   the world there's a bunch of ambu like

00:03:47   down the street that's the best time to

00:03:49   use the word Ambu like here are all

00:03:52   these Ambu lie they're cleaning up after

00:03:54   the tsunami we have numerous ambulance

00:04:00   standby in case there are several

00:04:01   tsunami that cause great danger to all

00:04:04   those people over there eating their

00:04:05   sushis so have you had any follow up

00:04:10   from the emoji gate I'm saying emoji

00:04:13   gate like there was some controversy

00:04:14   last episode I can't even remember why

00:04:15   we were discussing emoji now I'm a big

00:04:17   fan of the gate suffix it's applicable

00:04:19   under many many circumstances what was

00:04:21   the BAE's wasn't it that's right it was

00:04:23   be gay yeah we were talking about the be

00:04:25   emojis

00:04:26   and how the page full of B emoji is

00:04:30   ridiculous and they don't look very good

00:04:32   although just today I do have some

00:04:34   follow-up from our emoji discussion but

00:04:37   I was looking up several emoji pages for

00:04:38   this and one of the other ones I came

00:04:40   across as another animal contender for I

00:04:42   think a very bad page of emoji is the

00:04:45   Frog if you take a look at the Frog page

00:04:46   on emoji pedia I think that is a strong

00:04:48   contender for also weird emoji that

00:04:52   don't represent the Frog very well and

00:04:55   they guys a big spike in the Frog a

00:04:57   major PDA statistics that's a look

00:05:00   actually between that the recording of

00:05:02   last episode and it actually going live

00:05:04   I was fortunate enough to actually have

00:05:06   lunch with Jeremy who runs mojo pedia so

00:05:09   I was able to give him a heads up that

00:05:11   he needed to batten down the servers for

00:05:13   the B page before the episode went live

00:05:16   so he was all over that at emoji PD

00:05:18   headquarters I don't agree with you grey

00:05:20   I think generally the standard of the

00:05:23   frog emojis is higher than the standard

00:05:27   of the be emojis but don't you think

00:05:29   they're just we're is like a bunch of

00:05:31   weird salamanders that's what I'm

00:05:33   looking at here I just they make me feel

00:05:35   uncomfortable I think they're weird and

00:05:37   the Apple one I never really thought

00:05:39   about it but the Apple one I realize all

00:05:42   all of my Apple emoji life I thought

00:05:44   that was a snake face emoji I never

00:05:46   realized that that was the Frog face

00:05:48   emoji is it's a whole other animal

00:05:50   I don't know great now that you say

00:05:52   snake I kind of see it but if they sent

00:05:54   me a text saying oh my goodness Brody I

00:05:56   was just out walking in the forest and I

00:05:58   stepped on her and then you sent me

00:06:00   their emoji I would immediately know

00:06:02   that you'd stepped on a frog so I think

00:06:04   it does its job I think that sentence is

00:06:06   leading you toward the idea that you

00:06:07   stepped on a snake I think there's this

00:06:09   context around there

00:06:11   there's making it clear that I stepped

00:06:12   on this a snake is not a snake if you

00:06:14   don't say it's long body like no one

00:06:16   would represent a snake with just the

00:06:18   forward flush face of a snake unless it

00:06:21   had a big forked tongue mmm

00:06:23   snakes are all about long bodies

00:06:25   obviously saying I look at all of those

00:06:27   and my first thought is frog hmm I'm not

00:06:31   saying they're perfect and I'm not

00:06:32   saying they couldn't be better

00:06:33   but I think they're acceptable as frogs

00:06:37   yeah I'll give them a barely acceptable

00:06:40   but I just think a lot of them are weird

00:06:41   there's one I like I like the messenger

00:06:44   one it speaks to me somehow no no that

00:06:48   messenger frog looks like a creepy frog

00:06:50   that's watching you when he shouldn't be

00:06:52   what you think it looks a bit

00:06:53   voyeuristic yeah it does that messenger

00:06:56   frog it feels like he's watching you in

00:06:57   the bathroom that's a good frog feels

00:06:59   like I don't like it that smile

00:07:01   those creepy eyes and his looking to the

00:07:04   side like that like oh hey I don't like

00:07:07   that messenger frog emoji one tiny bit

00:07:09   I've just got this picture in my head if

00:07:10   you like pulling your trousers up and

00:07:12   then looking up at the window that frogs

00:07:13   just like a beady eyes right up against

00:07:15   the glass yeah it's what I would expect

00:07:17   if some puts a sticker like that on the

00:07:19   window of a bathroom and what it's doing

00:07:21   with its mouth also makes it look kind

00:07:23   of a little bit sleazier that's an

00:07:24   uncomfortable emoji mm-hmm but I was

00:07:26   wandering down this garden path of emoji

00:07:29   because the main feedback from last time

00:07:32   is I was describing the kind of things

00:07:36   that I like in emoji what I thought

00:07:38   would be good design elements and the

00:07:40   universal feedback was that the emoji

00:07:45   that I should like best are the old

00:07:49   Google emoji so this is a story I was

00:07:54   vaguely aware of when it happened but

00:07:55   because I don't use Google stuff I

00:07:57   wasn't really on top of it but Google

00:07:59   changed their emoji this year and so

00:08:02   here is the list of images of the old

00:08:05   Google emoji which is the Android 7.1

00:08:09   version of emoji okay and then I will

00:08:13   also send you android 8.0 version of

00:08:17   emoji so this is the first iteration of

00:08:19   their new emoji alright so I'm looking

00:08:22   at 7.1 first right

00:08:24   I don't like they're happy their faces

00:08:26   because they're not round they're like

00:08:28   these stone laws and sort of domes don't

00:08:34   approve of that I think those are

00:08:35   adorable I really like the little

00:08:37   gumdrop faces not have enough they've

00:08:40   got to be round yeah hmm I'm scrolling

00:08:42   down looking at there are other more

00:08:43   general stuff you know and they're okay

00:08:46   okay so that's seven point one yeah

00:08:49   and now let's have a look at these other

00:08:53   ones

00:08:55   8.00 I say that go on to the round faces

00:08:57   that's good say sub viously the people

00:09:00   have spoken but I've gotten to the round

00:09:03   faces I've already forgotten the ones

00:09:06   before but my first instinct is that the

00:09:08   new ones are better hmm

00:09:10   I'll give you there's what I think is a

00:09:12   an illustrative example of the change in

00:09:14   style which is if you go to the turtle

00:09:16   emoji page on a mojo pedia and you go

00:09:19   down to Google and you click on it you

00:09:20   can see the old versions of what the

00:09:23   turtle looked like

00:09:23   I mean you are cherry picking here but

00:09:25   I'll do it I am cherry picking but I

00:09:27   think there's a thing that I want to

00:09:28   illustrate here that is showing the

00:09:31   design difference because I think the

00:09:34   new google emojis I really don't like

00:09:36   and I don't like them for a couple of

00:09:38   specific reasons but it might not be

00:09:42   obvious when you're looking at all of

00:09:43   them in a bunch all right so I've gone

00:09:45   to the turtle on the Google emoji and

00:09:47   I'm looking at the current one which I'm

00:09:48   not a fan of right and I've coded up the

00:09:51   old ones and I've got the previous one I

00:09:54   get is 5.0 that's correct yeah that's

00:09:56   the route so I'm looking at 4.3 which is

00:09:59   black and white and not even worth

00:10:00   talking about so the old timey turtle is

00:10:02   what that one is yeah yeah 4.4 and 5.9

00:10:05   this tells me what you like you know you

00:10:07   obviously like uber cuteness and your

00:10:09   emojis I think you're gonna go for emoji

00:10:12   it helps to make them cute yeah I mean I

00:10:14   think the four point four or five point

00:10:16   Oh ones the ones before I don't like the

00:10:18   new one but I think the previous ones

00:10:20   don't look professional I think they

00:10:23   look like they were made by an amateur

00:10:25   hmm that's interesting you say that I'm

00:10:27   looking at the the new Google emoji

00:10:29   versus the old Google emoji and there's

00:10:32   one key feature here which I think

00:10:34   really ruins the new Google emoji which

00:10:36   is the same kind of thing I would not

00:10:38   tolerate on a flag and it's Google's

00:10:41   intense love of gradients hmm every one

00:10:46   of these emojis has a gradient they're

00:10:49   not using solid colors even the people

00:10:53   want like they're not using solid colors

00:10:54   everything is a fade color from the top

00:10:57   down to the bottom but I think the

00:10:59   gradients look like mid-90s web garbage

00:11:03   you've got to go with the flat design or

00:11:05   nothing like having these gradients is

00:11:07   absolutely terrible

00:11:08   yeah so I've got to say I'm a big fan of

00:11:11   the old Google emojis that have passed

00:11:15   into the dustbin of history I think

00:11:17   they're really cute I think they have a

00:11:19   consistent design and I think the new

00:11:22   version of the Google emojis I don't

00:11:24   like them at all

00:11:25   I think the gradients are ugly and

00:11:27   they're stuck in a weird half land

00:11:30   between having dimension and being flat

00:11:33   so thumbs down also across the kind of

00:11:37   turtle suite of emojis across all

00:11:40   platforms they can't seem to decide

00:11:41   between a turtle and a tortoise I mean

00:11:44   the Apple turtle is clearly a tortoise

00:11:46   I always forget which way is the what

00:11:48   with this one which one does it tortoise

00:11:50   is the one on land that's the tortoise

00:11:52   the tortoise is the big land one

00:11:53   tortoise is the big land one do you

00:11:56   think that we need to specify a

00:11:57   difference between these I think in most

00:11:59   people's minds it kind of melts together

00:12:00   like are you going to be Perdition for a

00:12:02   crocodile versus an alligator emoji well

00:12:05   being in Australia and I probably will I

00:12:07   don't know which one is actually in is

00:12:09   it alligator I mean it does say here on

00:12:12   that the turtle emoji is also known as

00:12:14   the tortoise and looks similar to one so

00:12:16   they're even acknowledging themselves

00:12:18   that there's ambiguity here au au team

00:12:21   crocodile or team alligator but which

00:12:23   animal do you prefer out of those two

00:12:25   they have got a crocodile emoji have a

00:12:27   look at the emoji pedia page for this

00:12:30   animal I have sent it to you on instant

00:12:32   message as an Australian how do you feel

00:12:35   about the representation of this

00:12:37   creature on the various emojis alright

00:12:41   say you've sent me the page for the

00:12:44   crocodile mm-hmm also known as the

00:12:47   alligator

00:12:48   well no not also known as the alligator

00:12:50   it says it right there on the emoji

00:12:52   pedia page also known as alligator croc

00:12:55   so the Apple crocodile is way too

00:12:58   elaborate it's like a piece of Earth and

00:13:01   like a children's book about animals

00:13:03   like it's really detailed and like it's

00:13:05   not even a emoji as far as I'm concerned

00:13:07   I really think that all on all of these

00:13:09   pages the Apple ones really stand out as

00:13:12   being very different and being maybe

00:13:14   overly detailed they've kind of lost the

00:13:17   spirit of what emojis are about mmm

00:13:19   Google won the crocodile looks like it's

00:13:22   a bit he's a bit wacky it doesn't like

00:13:25   lip brushes crocodiles like yeah it's

00:13:30   like it's like he's had a cold Vic's

00:13:31   right that's what that crocodiles have

00:13:33   the sense that's what made me laugh out

00:13:38   loud so hard on this page Samsung your

00:13:43   adorable little squashed crocodile

00:13:47   Stegosaurus dinosaur emoji is so wrong

00:13:51   it's adorable past a Marilyn point yes

00:13:56   it is I'm gonna give it that the

00:13:58   Microsoft one is weird it's like a piece

00:14:03   of concept art yeah it's like a Aztec

00:14:05   drawing with a very heavy stroke weight

00:14:08   LG looked like they just repurposed

00:14:10   their cucumber emoji HTC just weren't

00:14:14   trying hard enough

00:14:15   Facebook started playing with the Hughes

00:14:18   and forgot to press undo messenger just

00:14:22   looked nasty the Twitter one is super

00:14:25   cute although I would probably struggle

00:14:27   to guess what it is

00:14:28   I also like the Twitter crocodile emoji

00:14:30   also has the advantage of looking like

00:14:32   he doesn't have a care in the world

00:14:33   he's just threading along being a

00:14:36   crocodile yeah whatever man he has got a

00:14:38   certain aloofness net yeah I like him a

00:14:40   lot this is great podcast fodder by the

00:14:42   way just talking about all this imagery

00:14:43   the emoji Dex one is nasty

00:14:47   the Mozilla one looks like it's from an

00:14:49   Atari 2600 game the emoji one one looks

00:14:53   like it's got a mountain range going

00:14:55   along its back the question that I was

00:14:57   having for you though is as an

00:14:58   Australian okay how would you feel about

00:15:01   using this emoji to represent the

00:15:05   creature in your native homeland does

00:15:07   that Google one who's drank the VIX feel

00:15:09   like he expresses what it is to be an

00:15:11   Australian crocodile alright know as an

00:15:13   Australian the only time we ever talk

00:15:14   about crocodiles is not normally in like

00:15:17   fun it's normally like another tourist

00:15:20   has just been eaten mm-hmm so I can't

00:15:23   see how I would use a wacky crocodile

00:15:26   mmm-hmm like you don't talk about

00:15:27   crocodiles in times of levity I can't

00:15:31   imagine how I would use a crocodile

00:15:34   emoji ever like I can't imagine sending

00:15:36   a message to my friends in Australia

00:15:37   going oh hey hey mate sorry to hear

00:15:39   about your uncle Rob of being eaten by

00:15:41   the emoji crocodile crocodiles are

00:15:44   serious business down in Australia

00:15:46   crocodiles are serious business anywhere

00:15:48   misses crocodiles are huh well when I

00:15:51   googled crocodile the very first thing

00:15:54   that comes up is a news article from

00:15:55   just a few days ago the title of which I

00:15:59   love death of Queensland's largest

00:16:01   crocodile in 30 years could spark

00:16:04   violent power grab you don't want a

00:16:06   power grab happening in the waterways of

00:16:08   Queensland anyway that's the emoji I'm

00:16:11   gonna give that old Android one big

00:16:13   thumbs up new Android one thumbs down

00:16:16   it's ugly and I don't like it

00:16:17   that's my mode you follow up Samsung

00:16:20   crocodile emoji made my day it's so bad

00:16:24   it's great I love it you go Samsung

00:16:29   crocodile you go man we talk about

00:16:33   spoilers a lot and we try to avoid

00:16:37   spoilers or warn people of spoilers and

00:16:40   I think this is good practice if you are

00:16:41   straying into territory where you are

00:16:43   about to spoil the TV show or a movie

00:16:45   you owe it to people to warn them you're

00:16:48   about to do it of course it's only

00:16:49   civilized but I do not think it is

00:16:51   civilized in a single tweet the runs

00:16:55   spoiler alert : can't believe Darth

00:16:59   Vader was really a woman like in the

00:17:01   same sentence that is not sufficient

00:17:04   spoiler alert like just writing spoiler

00:17:06   alert and then immediately spoiling in

00:17:08   the same sentence is very poor form and

00:17:13   you may as well have not even written

00:17:15   spoiler alert because I don't think many

00:17:17   people are capable of seeing those first

00:17:19   two words not even knowing what you're

00:17:20   about to spoil I don't think you can

00:17:22   tweet about things without spoiling I

00:17:24   can't see how you could do it unless you

00:17:25   said

00:17:26   spoiler alert in five minutes I'm going

00:17:28   to tweet something that ruins the new

00:17:30   Star Wars movie but even then if the

00:17:32   first thing people say is you're next

00:17:33   week you've spoiled yeah people who are

00:17:35   doing spoiler alert : and then the

00:17:37   actual spoiler

00:17:38   that is ungentlemanly and i have a

00:17:42   suspicion that those are people who

00:17:44   don't get the use of spoiler alert as a

00:17:48   joke yeah which is like a conversational

00:17:51   thing when you when you say spoiler

00:17:53   alert and then you say a thing that

00:17:55   completely isn't a spoiler yeah you're

00:17:59   teaching you're teaching a history

00:18:01   lesson in the UK and you're talking

00:18:03   about the Germans trying to invade the

00:18:06   British mainland yeah as the history

00:18:07   teacher you say spoiler alert they

00:18:09   didn't yeah right it's like that's a

00:18:11   joke it's not a spoiler because you're

00:18:13   speaking English I think that's maybe

00:18:15   people did not getting the use of it as

00:18:16   a joke versus not as a joke yeah they

00:18:19   think they've done a public service by

00:18:20   putting spoiler alert on the unless

00:18:22   there's some thing that goes on in the

00:18:24   Twitter community I'm not aware of where

00:18:26   people filter out tweets with the word

00:18:28   spoiler alert on them that's putting too

00:18:30   much of a burden on the end user that

00:18:31   doesn't work at all no that's no good

00:18:33   yeah you can't have the spoil right next

00:18:35   to the spoiler alert that's not how I

00:18:36   like we read by taking in a bunch of

00:18:39   words yeah at once you just have to

00:18:41   accept you cannot spoil on Twitter that

00:18:43   is not a medium where you can put

00:18:46   spoilers

00:18:46   there's no way to effectively do it

00:18:48   unless you link to something spoiler

00:18:51   alert

00:18:51   here's my thoughts on the new Star Wars

00:18:53   movie and then you like have like a link

00:18:55   to somewhere else okay mm-hmm but don't

00:18:58   put it in the toy that's just you gonna

00:18:59   you don't know what you're doing even if

00:19:01   you have those new spacious 280

00:19:03   character tweets there's not enough

00:19:05   space in a single tweet to not spoil

00:19:07   what you've said have you got them no I

00:19:10   don't have them yet Brady do you have

00:19:12   the new expanded tweets no I don't I've

00:19:15   seen other people I know with them

00:19:16   luxuriating and all those characters

00:19:19   like like someone making it rain in

00:19:22   Vegas with like $20 bills I swear to god

00:19:25   I have this weird feeling I've seen some

00:19:27   people they have all that all this space

00:19:29   to use their 280 characters and that

00:19:31   there's something about it that makes it

00:19:32   feel like watching the monopoly man just

00:19:35   burn money in front of you like oh you

00:19:37   bastard oh look at you with all your

00:19:40   words and I'm here like a popper eating

00:19:43   my gruel unable to express my thoughts

00:19:45   as largely and as freely as you it makes

00:19:47   me feel like the proletariat should

00:19:49   revolt I have such a visceral reaction

00:19:50   to seeing them in

00:19:51   time line and it makes no sense

00:19:53   whatsoever do you know the few people

00:19:55   I've seen using them though I feel like

00:19:57   they're padding every time I read it 280

00:20:00   character tweet I read the first part

00:20:02   and then I read them saying like another

00:20:03   sentence after that and I'm like you

00:20:05   didn't need that you're just padding out

00:20:06   between now I agree when I saw Twitter

00:20:10   announced this as a thing that there's

00:20:12   like oh we're gonna double the size of

00:20:13   tweets I don't want to be this guy but I

00:20:16   did have the feeling of like I don't

00:20:17   think you understand your company I

00:20:19   don't think you understand

00:20:20   what's great about Twitter and at least

00:20:25   so far what I have seen with the double

00:20:26   sized wheats

00:20:27   it doesn't encourage me to think oh wow

00:20:29   I really feel like I was missing out on

00:20:32   the expanded thoughts of the people that

00:20:34   I follow and who get retweeted in my

00:20:35   timelines like hey guess what 140

00:20:38   characters yeah sometimes it's annoying

00:20:40   but it's a feature it's not a problem it

00:20:43   instills a discipline on the tweeters

00:20:45   that is in everyone's best interests I

00:20:47   totally agree I find it's such a bizarre

00:20:49   decision on Twitter's side and I don't

00:20:52   know did you read their blog post where

00:20:54   they explain their reasoning for this I

00:20:56   didn't can you summarize it for me so

00:20:58   they actually had an interesting point

00:21:00   so they talked about Twitter in various

00:21:03   different languages and they made the

00:21:05   point that okay so it's a hundred and

00:21:07   forty characters but a character is a

00:21:09   very different thing in different

00:21:11   languages for example Japanese and how

00:21:14   you are able to express many more

00:21:17   thoughts in 140 characters of Japanese

00:21:20   than you can in English yeah and that

00:21:24   English which is actually one of the

00:21:26   languages that's if you line them all up

00:21:28   in this concept of how much can you

00:21:30   express with this number of characters

00:21:33   English is on the end of it's much

00:21:36   harder to express the same number of

00:21:39   thoughts it's character hungry like I

00:21:41   think this is a really interesting idea

00:21:42   and I remember a long time ago do me

00:21:45   like an information theory class I think

00:21:48   it was like Russian was one of the worst

00:21:50   it was like very hard to express

00:21:52   thoughts in a small number of characters

00:21:54   with Russian it's like it gobbles up the

00:21:56   most number of letters that you need to

00:21:57   use so anyway so they did this little

00:22:00   analysis and they were able to show that

00:22:02   in English and a few other languages

00:22:05   that something like 10% of the tweets

00:22:09   hit the absolute maximum character limit

00:22:11   so presumably people are are trying to

00:22:13   squeeze it in as best as they can

00:22:16   and I know I do this all the time like I

00:22:18   write out some garbage on Twitter and

00:22:20   then I seen a little little indicator

00:22:22   it's like you are 300 characters over

00:22:24   the limit it's like okay well gotta

00:22:25   start pruning it back right like you get

00:22:27   down to the core of whatever it is

00:22:28   you're trying to say yeah you're like ah

00:22:30   Kersey you one extra character I can't

00:22:33   get rid of it's like oh well I guess I

00:22:34   need to get rid of that double spaced

00:22:35   yeah so their argument was because

00:22:38   English was hitting this limit it means

00:22:42   that they should expand it compared to

00:22:45   other languages

00:22:46   that's stupid okay why do you think

00:22:51   that's stupid because the number was

00:22:52   crafted with English in mind well I know

00:22:55   it was crafted because of text messages

00:22:57   but but it was it was text messages in

00:22:58   America like that that's where it came

00:23:00   from

00:23:00   yeah it has always been the restriction

00:23:03   if anything they should have just cut

00:23:04   down on the Japanese version or just

00:23:07   accepted that the Japanese people have

00:23:09   the luxury of writing novels in a tweet

00:23:10   whereas we don't it's funny because I

00:23:13   was thinking the exact same thing is

00:23:15   like ah sounds like you need to cut down

00:23:17   on those Japanese over there like

00:23:19   luxuriating in their super long tweets

00:23:21   like you need to show them a few things

00:23:23   and crank it down so 10% of their tweets

00:23:25   hit the maximum length yeah which I

00:23:27   presume would mean that tweets in Japan

00:23:28   you only get ten characters so I'm sure

00:23:30   is what it must be yeah there's a thing

00:23:32   I think that often happens when

00:23:33   someone's explaining a thing worse like

00:23:34   you've told me some facts about the

00:23:37   world but I don't see how those drive

00:23:41   you to the conclusion they're like oh

00:23:43   because they hit the limits like

00:23:44   everyone already knows that in Twitter

00:23:46   you hit the limit all the time we've

00:23:47   been doing this for 10 years on Twitter

00:23:52   like why now why do we have to change us

00:23:54   now so anyway I'm just ranting because I

00:23:56   feel I feel two things about this one I

00:23:57   feel it's a super dumb decision and - I

00:24:00   feel weirdly resentful of this top hat

00:24:04   wearing monocled over class of people

00:24:07   who have the expanded tweets right now

00:24:09   when I don't do you think there's a

00:24:12   reason they're not telling us like a

00:24:14   real reason that involves money

00:24:16   obviously I don't know I have no I

00:24:19   eeeh why Twitter would want to do this

00:24:22   I mean people sort of joke that oh it's

00:24:24   the easiest thing they could do but I

00:24:25   actually imagine this is probably a

00:24:26   pretty big technical change when you

00:24:30   have a software code base for a decade

00:24:32   that's based around a hard-coded limit

00:24:34   like I imagine this is actually quite

00:24:36   expensive in terms of manpower for them

00:24:38   to do so I I don't know and this is this

00:24:40   is one of these things like I just I

00:24:42   can't conceive of a reason except maybe

00:24:46   they think the new users find the 140

00:24:51   characters too restrictive and that new

00:24:53   users want more space this is their path

00:24:56   to growth you know I don't know but I

00:24:59   mean I'm trying to think what the

00:25:01   threats are to Twitter at the moment I'm

00:25:02   gonna receive their you know they're

00:25:04   worried about all these other platforms

00:25:06   that people will go to instead mmm but

00:25:08   I'm not I can't think of another social

00:25:10   media platform I use where I think the

00:25:12   luxury of all these characters I mean I

00:25:14   can write longer posts on Facebook but

00:25:17   other than that I mean other things like

00:25:18   Instagram and snapchat and things like

00:25:21   that and I mean I hardly use text and if

00:25:24   I do it's never more than four or five

00:25:25   words so I wouldn't have thought

00:25:27   people's ability to luxuriate in text

00:25:30   elsewhere is the biggest threat to

00:25:32   Twitter yeah I don't get it I think it's

00:25:35   a strange move and in all seriousness

00:25:37   from my timeline I have yet to see a

00:25:40   tweet that I think oh yes this was

00:25:43   enhanced by the length as opposed to

00:25:46   simply being oh now there's more in my

00:25:49   timeline which is less well thought

00:25:52   about which is actually quite an

00:25:54   accomplishment for Twitter because if

00:25:56   there's one social network that has the

00:25:57   reputation for like how you just quickly

00:25:59   say a thing and tweet it and never think

00:26:00   about it it's like it sure is Twitter

00:26:02   it's like oh no now they're giving

00:26:04   people even more room to just be like

00:26:05   rat-a-tat tat-tat-tat

00:26:07   type out some stuff boom enter and off

00:26:09   it goes I genuinely think this is a this

00:26:11   is a really bad decision for Twitter I

00:26:13   think they should stick with the 140 you

00:26:15   know when I was a newspaper journalist I

00:26:16   would write stories every day obviously

00:26:18   and your biggest fear was your story not

00:26:20   getting into the paper at all your

00:26:22   second biggest fear was it being cut

00:26:24   down to what we would call the brief

00:26:25   where would be cut down to one or two

00:26:28   sentences the main reason you didn't

00:26:30   like that is because you wouldn't get

00:26:31   your name on the story because you don't

00:26:33   by lines on briefs but also oh yeah yeah

00:26:36   but also you don't like the fact that

00:26:37   your day's work had been condensed to

00:26:39   just two sentences in a list of briefs

00:26:42   now your articles not getting respect

00:26:44   yes exactly yeah so anyway later on in

00:26:48   my career for about a year or two I had

00:26:49   a job where I was this sort of night

00:26:51   chief of staff person I was like a like

00:26:53   a more of a boss person as an

00:26:54   intermediate between all the reporters

00:26:57   who I was kind of overseeing in the

00:26:58   evening and all the sub editors who were

00:27:01   putting the newspaper together at night

00:27:02   and one of my main jobs would be after

00:27:05   the reporters had gone home those

00:27:07   saboteurs would come to me and say see

00:27:09   this story here which Freddie blogs has

00:27:11   written and he's written you know thirty

00:27:14   centimeters of copy because everything's

00:27:15   in centimeters

00:27:16   he's written thirty centimeters we want

00:27:18   it as a brief so I would have to take

00:27:20   the story and cut it down to two

00:27:21   sentences so I was obviously ruining

00:27:25   Freddie blogs as day but you know what

00:27:27   it was a really really pleasurable

00:27:30   exercise for me it was one of the most

00:27:32   fun things about my night taking a story

00:27:34   and crafting it distilling it down to

00:27:36   the two sentences like it was sort of

00:27:39   like preparing me for Twitter you know

00:27:42   sometimes I didn't like all the things I

00:27:43   had to do in that job in the evening or

00:27:44   it could be quite boring but that was

00:27:46   one of the things I really enjoyed

00:27:47   having spent years having done to me

00:27:50   when it was my job to actually do it to

00:27:52   my colleagues I always found a very

00:27:54   pleasurable challenge did you enjoy it

00:27:56   more for the challenge of the cutting

00:27:58   down or did you enjoy it more for the

00:28:01   power of finally being able to do to

00:28:03   others what had been done to you I did

00:28:05   feel a little bit sympathy for the

00:28:06   reporters because I'd been there and it

00:28:08   wasn't like a power trip it was more

00:28:10   just like a puzzle hmm it was more like

00:28:12   solving a crossword or something like

00:28:14   that it was like how can you take all of

00:28:16   this information and make it fit into

00:28:18   this new size that you've been given

00:28:20   because I'd be told you know sometimes

00:28:22   it would be here's a 35 centimeter story

00:28:24   I've only got 12 centimeters of space on

00:28:27   the page so can you cut 35 centimeters

00:28:29   down to 12 centimeters and you'd see the

00:28:31   number on the screen as to how big that

00:28:33   story now was so you were like

00:28:35   constantly pruning up like Twitter it

00:28:36   was like Twitter you know 20 years

00:28:38   before you know I was seeing this number

00:28:40   coming down I was having to cut this

00:28:41   number down and down and down until it

00:28:43   fit the hole and while we're talking

00:28:44   about Twitter Brady

00:28:47   while we're complaining about Twitter

00:28:48   yeah I also have to say that we're now

00:28:51   entering a Twitter season that I really

00:28:55   don't like hmm and it's Twitter

00:28:57   Halloween oh yeah

00:28:59   second only to April Fool's Day is the

00:29:01   worst time to be a yes except Twitter

00:29:07   Halloween lasts all month it does and

00:29:10   it's a month full of people coming up

00:29:14   with dumb spooky pun based names for

00:29:19   themselves and I just I just saw the

00:29:21   first one roll by today and I thought oh

00:29:25   no I forget about it

00:29:28   until it shows up but I just I feel like

00:29:32   I like I'm going around here and I'm

00:29:34   stomping on everyone's fun but I just I

00:29:36   don't know why it bothers me so much but

00:29:39   everybody on Twitter changing their name

00:29:41   to a spooky name yeah like don't care

00:29:43   Halloween is great Halloween one of the

00:29:47   top holidays obviously don't agree but

00:29:48   all right well you're wrong I'm sorry

00:29:50   your American Americans obsession with

00:29:53   Halloween will never make sense to me

00:29:54   that's because we do it great and the UK

00:29:57   does it terribly but book it like normal

00:30:00   people that realize it's ridiculous no

00:30:02   it's fantastic

00:30:03   and you're wrong but again the UK

00:30:05   doesn't just terribly every year UK

00:30:07   Halloween super disappointment that's

00:30:09   hot you don't know how to do it but

00:30:10   anyway the Twitter names I am NOT

00:30:13   looking forward to a whole month of this

00:30:15   where everybody feels like they need to

00:30:16   change their Twitter names to something

00:30:18   spooky what should I be brady

00:30:22   scaramouche as good as most of the

00:30:24   things that I see I don't know what

00:30:25   there's something what's yours is it's a

00:30:28   GP grave I don't know I don't know I

00:30:30   like I'm not doing I'm not doing it I'm

00:30:33   not doing any kind of Twitter name the

00:30:35   most I do is I'll change the color of my

00:30:38   icons oh that's right you do you change

00:30:40   it to orange don't you like a pumpkin

00:30:41   yeah you sell out who is selling out to

00:30:44   the Halloween corporation so you're

00:30:46   selling out the pumpkin pressure of

00:30:50   hello ain't the pumpkin Patrick no but

00:30:51   that because Halloween is great right I

00:30:53   change the colors because it's it's

00:30:54   fantastic moment silence for the

00:30:57   excellence of pumpkin pressure as a name

00:30:59   for the

00:31:00   enjoy Halloween festivities why does it

00:31:04   need a moment of silence Brady oh just

00:31:06   like recognition you know I think that's

00:31:08   quite good and as this came to me it's

00:31:11   very good ready it's a very good name

00:31:13   and you're very good at coming up with

00:31:14   names don't succumb to the pumpkin

00:31:17   pressure people of changing your icon

00:31:20   orange or changing your names or

00:31:21   something stupid people don't change

00:31:25   your Twitter names I just realize now

00:31:27   like why does it bother me so much and

00:31:28   part of the reason is because I have

00:31:29   like refigure out who the people are in

00:31:31   my Twitter timeline like I hate it

00:31:32   enough when people just change their

00:31:34   profile picture which I always think is

00:31:36   a real dangerous move when you're on

00:31:38   Twitter and you decide like I'm going to

00:31:39   I'm gonna change the picture it's like

00:31:40   okay well I have no idea who you are

00:31:42   possibly forever from now on but for

00:31:45   weeks at least

00:31:46   but changing the name to it's the same

00:31:47   thing where it's like okay I have to

00:31:49   like revisit the same time it's like a

00:31:54   month of confusion so thumbs down on

00:31:57   Twitter Halloween names I've just come

00:31:59   up with an even better name for you to

00:32:00   change yours to you though what our IP

00:32:03   gray it is pretty good that is pretty

00:32:06   good that is good I'll give you that

00:32:08   that's that might be the best one I've

00:32:09   ever heard that's pretty good I'll

00:32:13   change it right after the show with a

00:32:17   little grave emoji everyone's gonna

00:32:20   think you've died like whoever you gave

00:32:23   access to your Twitter account after

00:32:25   your passing decided to announce it to

00:32:26   the world r.i.p gray and pumpkin

00:32:31   pressure in the space of minutes I'm on

00:32:33   fire great we all bow down before you

00:32:35   Brady

00:32:35   my creative juices are flowing they're

00:32:38   flowing you need to take advantage of

00:32:40   this is there anything else you need

00:32:41   named while I'm here no no I'm good I'm

00:32:44   good items thank you let's move on there

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00:34:41   show well let's talk about something

00:34:45   that has been named interestingly as we

00:34:47   move on to a few topics that come up

00:34:50   from time to time here in hello Internet

00:34:52   and that is Elon Musk and SpaceX well I

00:34:56   certainly heard that there was some

00:34:58   action and a delayed after the last

00:35:00   podcasts exactly I think Elon Musk's

00:35:03   endless quest to win me over

00:35:06   he's taken the dramatic step of making

00:35:09   his next big announcements in Adelaide

00:35:12   just a stone's throw from the mighty

00:35:15   black stamp this is where he has

00:35:17   announced to the world his latest

00:35:19   incarnation of his publicity-seeking

00:35:22   announcements of things they may do in

00:35:24   years of the future where he has

00:35:27   announced

00:35:27   he's planned for Mars I'm gonna go to

00:35:32   Mars one day basically is the summary do

00:35:35   you fight he makes a lot of

00:35:36   announcements before they're a thing

00:35:37   well I don't really follow Elon Musk

00:35:41   announcements I don't really follow

00:35:43   SpaceX so when you say there's an

00:35:46   announcement about SpaceX going to Mars

00:35:48   like if if there's one thing I learned

00:35:50   from the feedback the first time we

00:35:51   brought up SpaceX it's that this is

00:35:54   clearly the whole purpose of the company

00:35:57   so presumably this is information that

00:35:59   has already been known for a while so oh

00:36:02   yeah it's it's revised ambitions for how

00:36:04   it's gonna do it and stuff and you know

00:36:06   and he's got some sexy new animations

00:36:08   made so everybody loves some sexy

00:36:11   animations though I mean I'm not anti

00:36:13   Elon Musk right but I do think he spends

00:36:16   a lot of time announcing things and

00:36:19   maybe this is the way you have to be in

00:36:20   business but he's bit of a publicity

00:36:22   seeker one of the reasons he's also

00:36:24   connected with Adelaide he's quite like

00:36:26   he does see opportunities to maximize

00:36:28   that publicity for example the other

00:36:31   reason he was in Adelaide I mean he was

00:36:33   there because there was this

00:36:33   International Astronautical Congress was

00:36:36   held in Adelaide mmm-hmm

00:36:37   so that's why he was there doing the

00:36:38   mass but he was also there in Adelaide

00:36:40   because a little while back Adelaide had

00:36:42   some problems with its power supply

00:36:44   mm-hm and there were some blackouts and

00:36:46   there was some infrastructure problems I

00:36:47   won't bore you with the details but he

00:36:49   then you know he saw the opportunity and

00:36:51   said I'll build you a giant battery in a

00:36:54   hundred days and if I don't build it in

00:36:55   a hundred days it's free so he like he

00:36:57   saw this as he's in to swoop in while

00:36:59   that was struggling and say this is

00:37:01   finally my chance to get someone to

00:37:02   adopt my battery technology so he's

00:37:04   quite good at like you know and good on

00:37:06   him you know good on him lead him to

00:37:08   anything wrong but but he's quite good

00:37:10   at getting attention and I feel like all

00:37:12   these announcements about Mars and stuff

00:37:14   what he does to get attention and all

00:37:17   these people that say this is that aim

00:37:18   of the company a fair enough but don't

00:37:21   get too drawn in by the hype like you

00:37:23   know sometimes your big announcement is

00:37:25   what you do to keep your other

00:37:26   businesses chugging along do you think

00:37:28   that's what's going on that it's

00:37:29   direction to keeping the other

00:37:31   businesses going I think it keeps the

00:37:33   other businesses in the spotlight and

00:37:34   does the other sides of the business and

00:37:36   good to have these like marquee plans

00:37:40   hmm I'm sure he would love to send

00:37:42   people to Mars and he is a space fan he

00:37:45   wasn't like an Apollo fan and stuff but

00:37:47   I do think people get a bit carried away

00:37:50   with this stuff I mean politicians do

00:37:52   the same thing just this week the Vice

00:37:54   President of the US was talking about

00:37:55   boots on the moon and stuff like that

00:37:57   it's a it's like a classic diversion the

00:37:59   thing with governmental announcements

00:38:01   that's much easier to draw off line at

00:38:03   is like okay boots on the moon you say

00:38:07   can you show me the line in the next

00:38:09   budgets that is directly related to

00:38:11   those boots on the moon because if you

00:38:13   cannot show me that line in the budget

00:38:15   then this is clearly just all talk right

00:38:17   whereas with private corporations like

00:38:19   exactly where they're distributing their

00:38:21   fight like it's much more opaque you

00:38:22   can't necessarily see but yes like I

00:38:24   remember several presidential

00:38:26   administrations ago lots of talk about

00:38:28   like returning to the moon and going to

00:38:30   Mars and like Oh where's your budget for

00:38:33   this like nowhere oh okay all right well

00:38:35   I won't be holding my breath on this

00:38:37   anytime soon then yeah the one thing I

00:38:38   will say that was like I don't mind

00:38:40   there being someone in the world who is

00:38:42   taking on the role of crazy billionaire

00:38:46   with interesting ideas all right like

00:38:50   putting aside the practicality of things

00:38:53   because many of these things I don't

00:38:54   have any real a sense of it a good

00:38:57   example this is the Hyperloop which was

00:38:58   the first one of these like wacky ideas

00:39:00   that came to my attention a while back I

00:39:03   was like the super fast ground transit

00:39:06   thing and I think I had filed under my

00:39:09   brain as a crazy idea that will never go

00:39:11   anywhere but it seems like that's

00:39:13   actually a thing that's really like

00:39:14   there's the Hyperloop construction

00:39:16   beginning and there's tests like it

00:39:18   seems like that might actually go

00:39:18   somewhere I don't know but I don't mind

00:39:21   there being someone in the world who is

00:39:25   just throwing out crazy ideas and has

00:39:30   resources to maybe just try stuff and

00:39:33   almost like the venture capital model of

00:39:34   crazy ideas like let's just try a bunch

00:39:36   of stuff and let's see if things work or

00:39:37   see if things don't and you don't

00:39:38   necessarily expect that everything will

00:39:40   pan out all the way I don't mind going

00:39:43   for it as opposed to you know the bold

00:39:46   ambitions of Twitter to double the

00:39:48   length of things people can say alright

00:39:50   that's like okay well it's a great

00:39:51   10-year engineering project I'm very

00:39:53   glad we've done

00:39:53   I'll tell you what and he's making the

00:39:55   announcement a delight and he has to get

00:39:56   points for that it's pretty exciting

00:39:58   look because now if he does get to mass

00:40:02   I'm gonna say it started in Adelaide oh

00:40:05   that's a trigger to say and I've been

00:40:08   having a look because he's also

00:40:09   announced that these new rockets that

00:40:10   he's going to use to get to Mars could

00:40:12   be used for other things like

00:40:13   transporting people from New York to

00:40:15   Shanghai in 40 minutes and stuff like

00:40:17   there and he's released a little video

00:40:19   animation of what that's going to look

00:40:21   like and I've been looking at this new

00:40:25   rocket which has been named the bfr they

00:40:29   don't say exactly what the f stands for

00:40:31   that could be big Falcon rocket or it

00:40:33   could be big effing rocket which is what

00:40:36   people think is the subtext because he

00:40:38   likes these cheeky names yeah my

00:40:40   thinking immediately goes to doom and

00:40:42   the BFG and do so yeah that's the way I

00:40:44   would assume this runs yeah I have to

00:40:46   say because like Tesla and you know musk

00:40:49   and all these people and SpaceX they're

00:40:52   good at making stuff look good you know

00:40:54   just cool but I think this new rockets

00:40:56   kind of ugly so this is the video that

00:40:58   you sent me earlier this is the earth to

00:41:00   earth animation that's what you're

00:41:02   talking about yeah that's the video I

00:41:04   sent you there's a YouTube video of what

00:41:06   it would look like going from New York

00:41:08   to Shanghai and the rocket and if you

00:41:10   google like VFR rocket you'll see lots

00:41:12   of pictures of it stuff like that as

00:41:14   well I didn't realize that's supposed to

00:41:15   be the actual rocket I thought this was

00:41:17   just a concept animation of a rocket but

00:41:20   I didn't realize that was the actual

00:41:21   model of it he's been putting out all

00:41:23   sorts of pictures of the rocket in

00:41:24   action on his Instagram you can watch it

00:41:26   like launching and how it all works and

00:41:29   stuff rocket I did Google for VFR rocket

00:41:33   and Wikipedia is playing the who knows

00:41:36   what it stands for game in the first

00:41:38   line of their description mmm the bfr

00:41:40   which either stands for and then they

00:41:42   list the two options I like that

00:41:44   Wikipedia playing both sides of the

00:41:45   field I mean it looks like a big chunky

00:41:47   rocket it reminds me of the a380 you

00:41:50   know the Airbus the new big

00:41:51   double-decker Airbus like you've got

00:41:54   your 747 which just the proportions of a

00:41:57   747 are just beautiful it's just a

00:41:59   beautiful looking plane and when you

00:42:01   compare it to the a380 yeah it looks

00:42:03   like just a big chunky fatso yeah

00:42:07   and I feel like this bfr is like the

00:42:09   a380 of of rockets I'm sure it's

00:42:12   probably more effective and better and

00:42:14   can hold more people and does the job

00:42:15   better but it just doesn't look as

00:42:16   beautiful the proportions aren't right

00:42:18   it doesn't make whatever the golden

00:42:20   rocket ratio is I'm laughing here Brady

00:42:24   because I really appreciate these little

00:42:26   moments with you because this is one of

00:42:27   these things where I look at it and you

00:42:29   know what I see I see a picture of a

00:42:31   rocket and because I'm not very familiar

00:42:33   with rockets I feel like this looks like

00:42:34   all the rockets I've ever seen really it

00:42:36   looks sort of the same I absolutely

00:42:38   adore that it in your analogy to explain

00:42:40   the Rockets you immediately jump to

00:42:42   another field where I feel like the

00:42:43   planes all look the same to me you're

00:42:45   like oh yes the Boeing 747 versus the a

00:42:48   bus and I'm like yes some planes are

00:42:50   bigger than others like I am just not

00:42:53   familiar enough with models of airplanes

00:42:55   or rockets to be able to visually

00:42:58   distinguish them from each other so if

00:43:00   you google 747 versus a380 and goes just

00:43:05   to the image results you'll see lots of

00:43:06   comparisons between a 747 and a380 747

00:43:10   versus a380 okay so that a380 is the one

00:43:16   with the big forehead like it has a big

00:43:18   forehead above the cockpit yeah you

00:43:21   can't tell me you look at those and

00:43:22   think one's more beautiful than the

00:43:23   other like I would say the one is more

00:43:25   beautiful than the other the 747 is more

00:43:28   beautiful than the other but isn't the

00:43:30   a380 it seems like it's way bigger like

00:43:32   it looks like it's hauling twice as many

00:43:34   people right yeah how it's more people

00:43:36   yeah and it's like way better technology

00:43:38   and like it's a great play in the a380

00:43:41   and it's great to fly on it just doesn't

00:43:43   look that good and that's what I'm

00:43:45   saying about this new BFRO kit I'm sure

00:43:48   you know there are reasons for it and

00:43:50   it'll it'll do the job better and I hold

00:43:51   some more people and but I just don't

00:43:53   think it looks cool everybody's going to

00:43:55   be saying oh it's the a380 of rockets

00:43:58   that's what they're going to be saying I

00:43:59   think so I think they will

00:44:01   you're planning on taking one of these

00:44:02   30-minute flights from London to New

00:44:05   York anytime soon I'll tell you well

00:44:08   that's the other thing I wanted to talk

00:44:09   about because goodness knows I would

00:44:12   love to spend less time in sitting in

00:44:14   planes yeah so the idea of being able to

00:44:16   do a long flight quickly that was very

00:44:18   appealing to me if there was a way to

00:44:20   get

00:44:20   New York in 30 minutes I would go to New

00:44:24   York just for an afternoon in return

00:44:26   like without a doubt that is a thing

00:44:27   that I would do but here is the problem

00:44:30   and this is something we've foreshadowed

00:44:31   in the last episode when you watch that

00:44:33   animation of what the flight would be

00:44:37   like they kind of recreate it when the

00:44:39   rocket is landing in Shanghai on like a

00:44:43   platform in the water with little

00:44:45   shanghai skyline behind and it comes

00:44:48   down and does that reverse and rocket

00:44:49   land mm-hmm

00:44:50   does your mind not immediately go to

00:44:52   that montage of a rocket crashes that

00:44:55   you're not doing weeks ago and you're

00:44:57   imagining yourself on there as yet

00:44:59   another SpaceX rocket explodes on impact

00:45:02   on a landing pad in the water suddenly

00:45:06   being in that Rockets a lot less

00:45:08   appealing all right place your bets

00:45:09   people when is hello internet going to

00:45:12   be covering rocket crash corner when is

00:45:16   the first edition of rocket crash corner

00:45:18   going to happen on hello Internet it's

00:45:19   going to happen someday

00:45:21   passenger earth to earth rocket crash

00:45:24   corner so it's some point it's going to

00:45:26   happen I'm not sure it's gonna happen

00:45:28   soon but it'll happen someday

00:45:30   you said that you would love to do it

00:45:31   right there's a million asterisks on

00:45:33   that but yeah yeah I was gonna say if it

00:45:35   was cheap would you do one of the early

00:45:38   ones on a SpaceX rocket when's it gonna

00:45:40   get to a point where you would feel safe

00:45:41   well this for me is actually much less

00:45:44   about safety I don't know the details of

00:45:47   what they're planning here but this idea

00:45:49   of you know 30 to 60 minute transport

00:45:52   anywhere on earth this is the thing that

00:45:54   I've been hearing about for years and

00:45:55   years because the idea is low-earth

00:45:57   orbit transportation like this has been

00:46:00   known as the way to try to solve this

00:46:02   problem it's just not technologically

00:46:04   possible my bigger concern and the thing

00:46:06   I've often thought would it stop me from

00:46:08   using this is it's just simply the time

00:46:10   that you have to spend under

00:46:12   acceleration like you're spending a

00:46:14   30-minute trip in a very large portion

00:46:16   of it is going to be under acceleration

00:46:17   I just find that so deeply uncomfortable

00:46:21   that that might be for me the stumbling

00:46:23   block even if it was very safe and

00:46:26   affordable I'd be there with like a good

00:46:28   port I mean like okay so exactly how

00:46:29   much acceleration for exactly how long

00:46:32   that's what I would need to know before

00:46:33   up on one of these things I mean they're

00:46:36   not going to make it intolerable because

00:46:38   otherwise they won't happen but we know

00:46:40   from like astronauts who do suborbital

00:46:42   flights the approximate duration what

00:46:44   are you going to be looking at like I

00:46:45   don't know five ten minutes and then

00:46:48   five ten minutes at the other end yeah

00:46:52   20 minutes under acceleration on a

00:46:53   30-minute flight I don't know it's a

00:46:55   pretty steady 30-minute floor I know

00:46:57   it's okay but it's deeply uncomfortable

00:46:59   I do not like the taking off in an

00:47:02   airplane on the runway I find

00:47:04   uncomfortable enough for 20 seconds

00:47:06   right if you're asking that you're going

00:47:08   to multiply that by a factor of whatever

00:47:11   it is 20 or 30 I don't know like I might

00:47:15   try it once and I might deeply deeply

00:47:17   regret it

00:47:17   what's that big sigh over there for free

00:47:19   I can sometimes be a bit insensitive so

00:47:22   I won't be but I think you're being a

00:47:24   wuss okay you could you can say that

00:47:28   it's perfectly fine for you to say that

00:47:31   it's just the way it is that is actually

00:47:34   my mind I'm very concerned that's

00:47:36   interesting I never occurred to me like

00:47:38   being scared of being blown up worries

00:47:40   me but it never occurred to me that just

00:47:43   like the acceleration would be that big

00:47:45   a problem for potential customers well

00:47:47   it depends on how much acceleration that

00:47:48   it is but yeah I've mentioned before on

00:47:50   the show like I have gone on the baby

00:47:52   stuff baby carnival rides and found it's

00:47:56   such a deeply unpleasant experience so

00:47:58   that that's why it would be concerning

00:47:59   yeah

00:48:00   but assuming that that that's not an

00:48:01   issue you know through magic somehow I

00:48:04   wouldn't want to be on the first one

00:48:05   maybe this is based on nothing but I

00:48:08   would suspect that in the modern era the

00:48:11   level of safety required to make this

00:48:15   kind of thing even feasible is much

00:48:18   higher than in the past right that just

00:48:21   yeah human expectations of safety are so

00:48:25   cranked up in the modern world that this

00:48:28   would not be like even flying an

00:48:30   aircraft in the 70s it would already be

00:48:33   at aircraft level safety today so that'd

00:48:37   be kind of my guess is he think this

00:48:38   would start off as very safe it wouldn't

00:48:41   start off as the risky venture for

00:48:43   someone who really needs to get to New

00:48:45   York quickly you know I think it'll be a

00:48:46   lot bungee

00:48:47   being or something uh I don't know what

00:48:48   the safety record for bungee jumping is

00:48:50   it's probably pretty good too I don't

00:48:52   know I've never felt the need to look

00:48:54   into it too much acceleration okay

00:48:58   leggo so in the last episode we

00:49:01   discussed the speaking of beautiful

00:49:04   rockets the Saturn 5 rocket that I got

00:49:07   as a lego thing and I haven't I still

00:49:09   haven't taken it out of the box and I

00:49:11   was talking about buying another box so

00:49:13   I could have one in mint condition in

00:49:14   the Box one that I built and I didn't

00:49:17   want to throw away the boxes and there

00:49:18   was sort of stuff which caused you some

00:49:20   amusement yeah I think you were toying

00:49:22   with the idea of something like five

00:49:24   boxes and three built sets yeah that was

00:49:28   the conclusion we were coming to for how

00:49:29   to handle this dilemma so I obviously

00:49:31   heard from multiple listeners who wanted

00:49:33   to share their experience with me those

00:49:36   who had border and assembled and

00:49:38   numerous people sent me photos of their

00:49:40   assembled rocket on the mantelpiece and

00:49:42   things like that which I appreciated

00:49:44   I even heard from one or two people that

00:49:46   have bought to want to be able and one

00:49:49   to keep as their mint condition but my

00:49:51   favorite message came from a listener

00:49:53   called

00:49:54   Andreas who said the following after

00:49:58   listening to the latest episode of hello

00:49:59   Internet I couldn't help but smile and

00:50:01   sympathize with your problem concerning

00:50:03   the lego saturn v and that's because I

00:50:06   too wanted to keep one in mint condition

00:50:07   and ordered multiple certain vibes and I

00:50:11   was so thrilled and excited when the set

00:50:13   was announced I'm also a huge fan of the

00:50:14   earliness era that I got a little

00:50:16   overzealous and I ordered not two but

00:50:19   four sets one to display the whole stack

00:50:23   one to show or separate it out in flight

00:50:26   and another one to keep in mint

00:50:28   condition and then I figured one is none

00:50:30   so I ended up with four sets gaze into

00:50:33   your future here Brady uh-huh

00:50:35   unfortunately I ordered too late for the

00:50:38   first batch to be delivered so I had to

00:50:39   wait for a month for the shipment during

00:50:41   that time I slowly came to the

00:50:43   conclusion that four is maybe a little

00:50:45   excessive and canceled two of the sets

00:50:48   just to receive the answer from Lego

00:50:50   that my sets of shipped the exact day so

00:50:52   I had to return two of the sets because

00:50:54   I couldn't counsel them anymore so for a

00:50:56   handful of days I had four seven five

00:50:58   sets in my flat

00:51:00   is now only two one is assembled and one

00:51:03   is safely stored and I still have the

00:51:05   empty box of the assembled one you're

00:51:07   completely right the box is too gorgeous

00:51:09   to be thrown away andreas then goes on

00:51:13   to highly recommend I actually build one

00:51:14   because he thinks I would enjoy the

00:51:15   build and said various other bits but I

00:51:19   thought after hearing from andreas I

00:51:21   didn't sound quite so crazy or maybe we

00:51:23   just both sound crazy together yeah you

00:51:25   sound crazy together but what are you

00:51:27   gonna do here Brady what was the

00:51:28   conclusion of this story

00:51:29   I still haven't moved I still haven't

00:51:32   constructed my set and I still haven't

00:51:34   bought a spare so I still just have one

00:51:37   unconstructed set back in the UK so you

00:51:40   have the box on display somewhere in

00:51:42   your office it's not permanent display

00:51:44   it is in a position where it can be same

00:51:46   right I understand it's not on permanent

00:51:49   display because if you put it on

00:51:50   permanent display then you would be

00:51:52   making a decision about not assembling

00:51:54   it yeah there's certain finality so it

00:51:56   has a kind of just lying around I'm

00:51:58   gonna get to this shortly look longer

00:51:59   has a certain casualness right casually

00:52:03   prominent in your office that's ones

00:52:05   like a boxes yeah alright well I wait

00:52:08   with bated breath to find out what

00:52:11   happens with this Lego set will you

00:52:13   assemble it will you get a second one

00:52:15   who knows who knows this has had me

00:52:18   thinking a lot about Lego though and

00:52:20   it's actually I grew up calling it Lego

00:52:22   what did you call it when you're growing

00:52:24   up but now everyone in the UK calls at

00:52:26   Lego which is probably correct so now I

00:52:27   have to call it Lego so I haven't

00:52:29   transitioned from Lego - Lego are you

00:52:31   thinking like I'm having a hard time

00:52:32   hearing that's like la why like late

00:52:34   Lego yeah yeah Australians tend to say

00:52:37   it like that

00:52:37   Lego now it's got a run with a go

00:52:39   because you got to say leggo my eggo I

00:52:41   don't even know what that means lik oh

00:52:43   my okay this is an American TV

00:52:44   commercial so yeah it's it's got a rhyme

00:52:46   with a go so it's Lego what's an eggo

00:52:49   and it goes like a round waffle alright

00:52:51   and you would make a delicious round

00:52:53   waffle in the morning and then your

00:52:54   sibling would come along in a TV

00:52:56   commercial and grab it and you would say

00:52:57   leggo my eggo right that's what you

00:52:59   would say it was not a commercial for

00:53:00   Legos actually there was a commercial

00:53:02   for egg oh okay but anyway these words

00:53:06   must rhyme so Lego is the way I would

00:53:08   say it okay so I was a really big Lego

00:53:12   fan oh yeah

00:53:13   boy and I had boxes and boxes of it and

00:53:17   I used to love making like spaceships

00:53:19   and shoot space battle cruisers or I'd

00:53:21   make like moon bases where there would

00:53:23   be buildings everywhere and spaceships

00:53:25   landed everywhere and like I was really

00:53:28   into it but I tell you what I was never

00:53:30   into and that was following the

00:53:33   instructions like getting like a Lego

00:53:35   with instructions to make a thing and

00:53:37   like follow instructions step by step

00:53:39   and then there was the thing whoo that

00:53:41   seemed like the most boring thing in the

00:53:42   world to do but it seems to me that over

00:53:46   the years Lego has just evolved more and

00:53:48   more towards these super specialized

00:53:50   beards with super specialized pieces and

00:53:53   you just have to make the thing they

00:53:55   want you to make like an a piece of Ikea

00:53:57   furniture hmm and there's so little room

00:53:59   for like creativity and freestyling and

00:54:01   for me that's what Lego was all about

00:54:04   like I would just get a box of Lego that

00:54:07   you know for some new spaceship or

00:54:08   something and I'll rip open the box and

00:54:10   just take all the pieces and just throw

00:54:11   them into the collective I look there's

00:54:13   more new great pieces that I can use it

00:54:15   would never even occur to me really to

00:54:17   make the thing that Lego you were

00:54:19   telling me to make because like where's

00:54:22   the fun in that let's not create if

00:54:23   that's just like doing what you're told

00:54:25   yeah so you were just a master builder

00:54:27   making your own things just out of your

00:54:28   imagination yeah I mean I'm not saying I

00:54:30   was good at it but that's what I enjoyed

00:54:32   I would make all sorts of crazy things I

00:54:34   eventually got into this thing where I

00:54:36   got really into kind of these Rube

00:54:38   Goldberg style marble runs that I would

00:54:41   make out of Lego from like the top of my

00:54:43   bedroom down to the bottom where the

00:54:44   marbles would like roll down all these

00:54:45   things I made out of Lego but it seems

00:54:48   like the sets now are so specialized and

00:54:50   the pieces are so specialized even if

00:54:51   you were a youngster like me it would be

00:54:54   really hard to do that I can't imagine

00:54:55   taking all those set in five white

00:54:58   paneled pieces and being able to make

00:55:00   other things with them well I remember

00:55:01   as a kid having a real feeling of I was

00:55:04   a big fan of the medieval LEGO sets

00:55:06   I loved the medieval Lego and I enjoyed

00:55:09   the pirate sets as well there's

00:55:12   something really pleasurable about

00:55:13   having all these little pirate treasure

00:55:15   chests filled with tiny Lego gold coins

00:55:17   like I really enjoyed that like oh look

00:55:19   at this a ball all of this treasure as a

00:55:21   child I've no control over the world but

00:55:23   like I have all this imaginary Lego

00:55:25   treasure yeah I remember

00:55:27   having a feeling like I was willing to

00:55:30   give leggo some leeway with okay I

00:55:34   bought this new castle set and of course

00:55:37   there needs to be a specialized

00:55:39   drawbridge and gate piece right because

00:55:42   it's a castle you need to have a gate

00:55:44   yeah and yeah okay I know I want some

00:55:46   some heraldry on here as well there

00:55:48   needs to be some Flags like okay but I

00:55:50   knew as a kid that there was some

00:55:52   threshold in my mind of specialized

00:55:56   pieces that were a piece too far and

00:55:59   that somehow felt like mm I don't know

00:56:01   let go it feels like you're being lazy

00:56:04   here or you're being unimaginative

00:56:08   the standard blocks yeah like that

00:56:11   always seemed to me the thing about Lego

00:56:13   that is great is you have a bunch of

00:56:15   standard blocks and from these blocks

00:56:17   you have created a thing when you start

00:56:20   getting too many specialized blocks it

00:56:25   becomes more like a ship in a bottle

00:56:26   like oh this is just the thing that

00:56:29   you're going to make and all of the

00:56:30   pieces are specialized it sounds like

00:56:32   you're on the same page just may here go

00:56:33   well it is a thing that I that I wonder

00:56:37   because I haven't assembled any sets as

00:56:40   an adult but I'm aware when I see LEGO

00:56:42   sets in the store that they do seem very

00:56:46   merchandise based and they also seem

00:56:49   incredibly reliant on the special pieces

00:56:52   so I'm not a fan of those special pieces

00:56:54   the difference between us as children

00:56:56   however is that kaha did I live for

00:57:00   those instruction manuals okay I loved

00:57:02   those instruction manuals so much and I

00:57:05   loved building the sets you know what's

00:57:08   great about those instruction manuals no

00:57:10   words right just pictures they show you

00:57:12   where the blocks go there's something

00:57:14   that my brain really liked about just

00:57:17   the 3d representation of these things in

00:57:21   instruction manual format like rotating

00:57:23   around this 3-dimensional object that

00:57:25   you're building I really love that I did

00:57:27   disassemble those things and I had like

00:57:30   a bin with sub dividers to put all the

00:57:33   LEGO pieces in but I just found I was

00:57:35   never really creative enough to build my

00:57:39   own stuff so

00:57:41   I did like building the sets as a kid

00:57:42   and I did like playing with those and I

00:57:44   liked the idea that I could sit down and

00:57:47   be a master builder and just create

00:57:49   something out of Lego but I just I

00:57:50   didn't have that within me but I still

00:57:53   felt like I don't like it when there's

00:57:55   too many specialized pieces it feels

00:57:57   like a kind of cheating so the fewer

00:58:00   specialized pieces in a Lego set the

00:58:02   better as far as I'm concerned I feel

00:58:04   like we're not on the same page but I

00:58:06   don't quite understand if you're just an

00:58:07   instructions guy you're not doing the

00:58:10   Freestyle I don't see why that

00:58:11   specialized spaces bother you so much

00:58:13   they feel like they are against the

00:58:15   spirit of Lego Lego is like it like an

00:58:17   instantiation of complexity from

00:58:20   simplicity but if you're starting with a

00:58:23   bunch of complex pieces it feels like

00:58:25   the pleasure of producing the final

00:58:26   thing has been reduced it's like oh yeah

00:58:28   I'm just assembling a whole bunch of

00:58:29   regular pieces but it's just more magic

00:58:32   if you have a box of things that are

00:58:36   very similar looking and then when you

00:58:38   construct it at the end you have a

00:58:39   castle like that's way better I like

00:58:42   that much much more a magic of having

00:58:43   saying them as atoms yeah yeah exactly

00:58:45   yeah that's what it is

00:58:47   these undifferentiated atoms have become

00:58:49   a thing as opposed to like I want Miceli

00:58:51   each one of these specialized atoms in

00:58:53   just the right spot like oh what's the

00:58:54   point I can already see what the thing

00:58:56   is it doesn't even matter hello Internet

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01:01:01   supporting the show great I am currently

01:01:05   in California in the spiritual home of

01:01:07   numberphile I thought you liked it when

01:01:09   I say it Brady you know I was going to

01:01:11   say it I was waiting to say it but the

01:01:13   new you said it before Mike you've

01:01:15   missed your opportunity I'm sorry I did

01:01:17   so I met MSRI then the master showed out

01:01:21   there in San Francisco yeah yep but

01:01:24   before that people who follow me on

01:01:26   social media may be aware I was in Las

01:01:29   Vegas

01:01:29   mm-hm and at the time of recording we're

01:01:33   a few days after this terrible tragedy

01:01:35   that happened in Las Vegas where the guy

01:01:37   up in that casino the Mandalay Bay

01:01:39   Casino shot a whole bunch of people I

01:01:42   think at the moment like 58 people died

01:01:45   in this like worst shooting in modern

01:01:47   times of America or just terrible thing

01:01:49   and I was in Las Vegas when that

01:01:51   happened which is quite interesting

01:01:53   because I was very close to her I was

01:01:56   one block away from it when it happened

01:01:57   but I wasn't aware that it was happening

01:01:59   mm-hmm so I suddenly started getting all

01:02:01   these text messages from my friends

01:02:03   right oh you're in Las Vegas oh yeah

01:02:04   right but also like older people who

01:02:07   listen to hello internet on Twitter

01:02:08   started messaging me asking me if I was

01:02:10   alright which was quite a weird

01:02:12   situation to be and it

01:02:13   a weird situation to be in because I got

01:02:15   the same thing where it's like I'm

01:02:17   sitting around on Twitter and then I get

01:02:18   messages asking me if you're okay and I

01:02:21   was like why why wouldn't maybe I'm sure

01:02:24   he's fine what's going on like it is a

01:02:26   strange modern phenomenon to find out

01:02:28   about these things in this indirect way

01:02:30   yeah is like living in a city like

01:02:31   London no there's always things that

01:02:32   happen and it's it is sort of weird to

01:02:35   just be sitting at home minding my own

01:02:36   business and to get a text message from

01:02:38   a friend or a family member going hey

01:02:39   are you okay and like why I'm just

01:02:42   sitting here what's going on it's like

01:02:43   Oh didn't you know it's like nope didn't

01:02:45   know yeah cities are big places the

01:02:48   weird thing was as well like when these

01:02:49   big like tragedies happen I always feel

01:02:52   like a bit of a recoil from people who

01:02:54   like try to make that about themselves

01:02:56   somehow you know when it's got nothing

01:02:58   to do with him and I did feel like it

01:02:59   had nothing to do with me cept that I

01:03:01   was close to it so I was a bit reluctant

01:03:03   to like go on Twitter and say it's okay

01:03:05   everyone I'm alright you know yeah I

01:03:07   felt I would look stupid doing that but

01:03:09   it eventually got to a point where I was

01:03:11   getting so many of these messages that I

01:03:12   was I think even my wife said oh maybe

01:03:14   you should just at least tweet something

01:03:16   so that this stops so I did end up

01:03:19   tweeting saying yeah I'm in I'm in Las

01:03:20   Vegas spam alright so you're in a 100%

01:03:23   no-win situation there I can completely

01:03:26   understand your feeling like oh I feel

01:03:28   silly or like I'm turning at like a

01:03:31   tragedy about me by publicly saying to a

01:03:34   large group of people like don't worry

01:03:36   everybody I know many people have died

01:03:39   but I am okay yeah it's a no-win

01:03:41   situation because also if you say

01:03:44   nothing you also know that there's a

01:03:47   non-trivial number of people who are

01:03:50   going to be increasingly concerned as

01:03:51   time goes on that you are okay maybe the

01:03:55   best solution in these moments is just

01:03:57   to tweet something unrelated and I'd be

01:04:00   like oh I'm really enjoying my hotdog

01:04:02   here at the Luxor Hotel remember the

01:04:05   picture of a hot dog maybe that's the

01:04:07   way to try to handle that would seem

01:04:09   really insensitive though know when

01:04:11   you're right next to something terrible

01:04:13   that's happened because just to give you

01:04:15   some perspective is still what was

01:04:16   happening I was in the MGM Grand which

01:04:18   is right near but yeah it's like almost

01:04:19   across the street isn't it yeah so when

01:04:21   it happened I eventually you couldn't

01:04:23   actually see it from my hotel room but

01:04:24   there was a window right next to my

01:04:26   hotel room that you could see like the

01:04:27   whole scene from so I went and stood

01:04:29   next to the window to have a look

01:04:31   because they were like so many police

01:04:32   cars and it was such an amazing amazing

01:04:33   sight so I was just looking out of

01:04:35   general curiosity and I was standing

01:04:38   next to these two people who were also

01:04:39   watching and eventually I spoke to them

01:04:41   after a minute or two and it turns out

01:04:43   they had just been down there and like

01:04:45   had been standing next to people who had

01:04:46   died and I was like oh my goodness

01:04:48   really you would you know that they were

01:04:49   like just in shock and then I went down

01:04:51   to like the lobby of the hotel to make

01:04:54   my friends just because you know we

01:04:55   couldn't sleep because you know it was

01:04:57   such a thing such a big thing and that

01:04:59   the hotel lobby of the MGM was full of

01:05:01   people you know with blankets had been

01:05:03   there with their cowboy hats on and

01:05:04   their boats still and they were all

01:05:05   crying and hugging each other and so

01:05:07   although it had nothing to do with me

01:05:08   and like you know I don't consider

01:05:11   myself part of it anyway it was very

01:05:13   much around me it was a very big thing

01:05:15   so to have tweeted anything would have

01:05:18   seemed like equally inappropriate so

01:05:22   anyway that's what happened it's just

01:05:23   terrible thing and I don't think you and

01:05:25   I have much to say about the incident as

01:05:27   a terrible incident or even all the

01:05:29   political stuff but there are things

01:05:31   that have happened at the time and since

01:05:33   that do kind of relate to you and I and

01:05:36   our world that I was curious to talk

01:05:38   about see what you thought and this

01:05:40   mainly is to do with advertising and

01:05:42   videos which is something we talk about

01:05:45   a lot right right we're not gonna be

01:05:48   tweeting pictures of hot dogs here but

01:05:50   how does this relate to YouTube which I

01:05:53   think yeah is a totally fair question

01:05:56   yeah and not just YouTube by the way but

01:05:58   it's video in general yeah so I think

01:05:59   we're talking about it with like the

01:06:01   distance of it having happened a little

01:06:02   while ago now and with all the caveats

01:06:04   that we realize there's a much bigger

01:06:06   picture to this but you and I probably

01:06:08   aren't the experts or the people to talk

01:06:10   about those bigger pictures but I was

01:06:12   curious about how it touched on sort of

01:06:14   the world that we work in because when

01:06:16   this first happened those are a hunger

01:06:18   for information and news about it so I

01:06:20   was like going online and watching

01:06:22   reports and videos and things as they

01:06:24   came to light on things like the BBC

01:06:25   website and the first thing that struck

01:06:28   me was that all these videos I was

01:06:30   watching for just you know for

01:06:32   information all of them had these like

01:06:34   unskipable ads so I'd be watching an

01:06:38   unskipable aired for

01:06:39   commercial product right and then I'd be

01:06:42   watching some video of a crazy gunman

01:06:45   shooting people from a casino which had

01:06:48   just been taken from video from

01:06:50   someone's you know Twitter or social

01:06:51   media so they just taken the video and

01:06:53   re-uploaded it and the ad seemed

01:06:56   inappropriate it seemed inappropriate to

01:07:00   be running an ad before that video am i

01:07:03   being silly or naive or before we talk

01:07:07   about YouTube and stuff for that because

01:07:08   I want to get to that in a minute

01:07:09   just like I'm just talking about news

01:07:11   organizations that you're CNN's and

01:07:13   you're BBC's and all these people

01:07:14   running pre-roll unskipable ads before a

01:07:18   video that is essentially just a reload

01:07:21   of some poor persons video they took at

01:07:23   the scene of this horrific incident yeah

01:07:25   well I mean there's a bunch of different

01:07:27   levels here but take the top level one

01:07:30   right which is you're watching the video

01:07:32   on a website and there's an pre-roll ad

01:07:34   against it yeah I feel like this comes

01:07:38   up every time there's any kind of

01:07:41   tragedy this tension between the like

01:07:44   the advertisers and the video material

01:07:46   that they're being shown against and I

01:07:51   understand why that happens but there's

01:07:54   also a part of me which feels like I

01:07:56   don't understand why particularly with

01:07:58   news so like you're watching this on

01:08:01   like a real news website yeah and you're

01:08:04   seeing an advertisement I sort of don't

01:08:06   understand the pushback there because

01:08:11   okay you're on a website you're watching

01:08:13   a pre-roll okay but if you were sitting

01:08:15   down at home and you're putting the news

01:08:17   on TV and said well hmm there's

01:08:21   commercial breaks during the news

01:08:23   there's commercials that happen there I

01:08:25   understand that it's slightly more

01:08:28   different in time as in the anchor

01:08:31   doesn't come onto the desk and say

01:08:33   horrible breaking footage from the

01:08:36   latest tragedy around the world

01:08:37   but first the message from right and

01:08:39   then they felt like they would seem more

01:08:41   crass I feel like there's not enough of

01:08:44   the difference here that I understand

01:08:47   where the upset comes from particularly

01:08:50   when you're talking about news because

01:08:52   presumably the people who sponsor on

01:08:54   news websites understand that the news

01:08:57   is going to cover the tragedies of the

01:09:00   world that's what the news is therefore

01:09:02   I don't think a sponsor can rightly say

01:09:04   oh we're totally surprised that you put

01:09:07   our ad against the latest incidents of

01:09:10   terrorism somewhere in the world because

01:09:12   the sponsor is advertising on the news I

01:09:14   they know if there's some terrorism

01:09:16   it may be like one thing clear this is

01:09:18   not criticism of the sponsors in any way

01:09:20   hmm

01:09:21   this is a criticism of the decision made

01:09:23   by the people who were the media

01:09:24   organization and I also want to say I

01:09:27   realized that there are lines here like

01:09:29   you said there were ads during the news

01:09:30   and where that line is is very difficult

01:09:33   for me to get my head around it's almost

01:09:35   just like I know it when I say it

01:09:37   mm-hmm because there are various

01:09:39   gradations to this but I just feel like

01:09:42   when I clicked the thing to say you know

01:09:43   here's some footage of the incident

01:09:44   taken by Fred Bloggs who happened to be

01:09:47   there and I click it and then the first

01:09:49   thing that happens when I click it is to

01:09:52   have an ad thrown in my face right that

01:09:55   feels wrong and to come back to the the

01:09:58   analogy you were using with an ad break

01:10:01   in the TV news and I do think you have

01:10:02   to be careful with Ed bricks on TV news

01:10:04   to during particular incidences but when

01:10:08   they throw to an ad like I think that

01:10:10   you have to be careful the way you do

01:10:11   that too like if they said because this

01:10:13   is the equivalent of what happens with

01:10:14   the pre-roll to me if wolf blitzer on CN

01:10:17   n said we've just got amazing footage

01:10:19   from the scene that really shows you

01:10:21   what happened and we'll show it to you

01:10:23   after these messages

01:10:24   that would seem wrong and really

01:10:26   inappropriate if they've got it they

01:10:29   said we've just got it and here it is

01:10:30   we're gonna show it to you that's what

01:10:32   they should do not but first of all you

01:10:34   have to watch this ad and that's what's

01:10:35   happening with a pre-roll ad you have

01:10:37   committed to look at something they've

01:10:39   offered you something you've said oh yes

01:10:41   I want to see this thing I've pressed

01:10:43   the button to say it okay first of all

01:10:45   you have to take this little bit of

01:10:46   medicine and most of the time that's

01:10:49   fine that's how that's how that

01:10:50   advertising works on the internet it's

01:10:52   how you and I make a living right

01:10:53   but exploiting this material that they

01:10:57   haven't even created most of the time

01:11:00   well that's a whole separate issue yeah

01:11:02   yeah during the incident like you know a

01:11:05   week later okay things are different but

01:11:07   during the incident

01:11:09   no it just felt wrong to me I felt like

01:11:11   I can't believe I'm watching this makeup

01:11:13   aired I can't believe I just said oh my

01:11:15   goodness okay I'll have a look at this

01:11:17   terrible thing that happened click and

01:11:18   I'm watching an ad for makeup mm-hmm for

01:11:22   20 seconds

01:11:23   it just seemed distasteful I'm trying to

01:11:28   run through I was gonna ask you if I can

01:11:29   can you articulate what it is this is

01:11:32   like a like a multivariate problem and

01:11:35   one of the variables that we can adjust

01:11:37   up or down is proximity in time let me

01:11:39   give you a more practical example from

01:11:42   my life so I make this periodic videos

01:11:46   channel with Professor Pollak off with

01:11:48   all these chemistry videos right and we

01:11:49   have ads on them occasionally when

01:11:53   someone close to the professor or

01:11:55   someone famous in the world of chemistry

01:11:56   dies he sometimes likes to do these kind

01:11:59   of obituary videos where he reminisces

01:12:02   about the person and tells you about

01:12:03   their life and things like that and

01:12:06   they're quite sensitive emotional

01:12:07   moments for him because someone he knows

01:12:08   has died sometimes he was close to that

01:12:11   person he wants to tell you a bit about

01:12:12   them as a person he reflects on the work

01:12:14   they did as a chemist and stuff like

01:12:16   that mm-hmm I don't put ads on those

01:12:18   videos because I don't want to be making

01:12:22   a video about someone having just died

01:12:24   and I've got this gentleman who was

01:12:26   friends with that person killing his

01:12:28   reminiscences about it to start with an

01:12:31   ad and for me to be seen to be making

01:12:33   any money from it regardless of what I

01:12:35   do who that money it just seems wrong

01:12:37   now later on because of the bulk way

01:12:40   that you sometimes have to manage your

01:12:41   videos maybe ads do start getting served

01:12:43   on those videos six months later or a

01:12:46   year later I don't know maybe there are

01:12:47   some of them that do now have ads on

01:12:49   them but they certainly don't have ads

01:12:50   on them when they're new and everyone's

01:12:52   watching them yeah just so the listeners

01:12:53   are aware that is definitely a thing

01:12:54   that happens when you're managing

01:12:55   YouTube videos is sometimes you have to

01:12:57   make bulk decisions I know on my channel

01:13:00   there's a couple of videos where I may

01:13:01   have not had ads on originally but

01:13:03   because of bulk decisions over time you

01:13:05   just cannot possibly keep track always

01:13:06   of which ones were so it's it's a thing

01:13:09   that happens yeah so I have this inbuilt

01:13:11   into me I know

01:13:13   when it's inappropriate to be making a

01:13:16   piece of media a commercial money-making

01:13:21   piece of material and when it's not I

01:13:24   feel like I have that like I have this

01:13:26   sense of right and wrong about it and I

01:13:28   felt like while this tragedy was still

01:13:30   like unfolding people were still

01:13:32   bleeding on the ground they're serving

01:13:35   up ads on this material and you can't

01:13:36   tell me they couldn't turn it off and if

01:13:38   they can't turn it off that's even more

01:13:39   disgraceful yeah but it's seemed

01:13:42   inappropriate to me it seemed wrong so

01:13:43   here's an interjection though about

01:13:45   where I think this falls down a little

01:13:47   bit as an analogy so part of the

01:13:50   difference at what I view here is it's a

01:13:52   clearer decision for you because the

01:13:56   videos that you do not want to monetize

01:13:58   are the anomalies in the content that

01:14:02   you are producing number file right or

01:14:05   periodic videos or any of your channels

01:14:07   they're normal content is not sensitive

01:14:11   content right whereas a thing that is

01:14:15   different with the news is they're in a

01:14:18   position where it's a much harder

01:14:20   judgement call because so much more of

01:14:25   the material that they deal with is

01:14:28   intrinsically sensitive it is the nature

01:14:30   of what the news covers

01:14:32   that it's going to be a vastly higher

01:14:34   percentage I hear what you're saying

01:14:37   great like that's a really fair point

01:14:38   but I don't completely agree I think

01:14:40   there is a line and I think I could see

01:14:43   how you could debate where that line is

01:14:45   what's the stuff we put on and what

01:14:47   don't we but this is an anomaly and this

01:14:50   is the other side of that line like a

01:14:52   guy up in a casino shooting down on

01:14:55   people and like massacring nearly 60

01:14:58   people like is definitely the other side

01:15:01   of that line where I think you would say

01:15:02   no ads and there's plenty of material

01:15:06   being put out by these organizations

01:15:08   every minute that is the side of the

01:15:11   line where I do accept ads I do see what

01:15:13   you mean they have more of this material

01:15:15   and this decision would have to be made

01:15:16   more often but I think this was so far

01:15:19   the other side of that line and surely

01:15:21   all news organizations are

01:15:24   prepared for major incidents like this

01:15:26   surely someone can have a big red button

01:15:28   new breast that says all right no ads

01:15:31   for the next two hours while we engaged

01:15:33   the appropriateness of this and whether

01:15:35   or not we should be seen to be

01:15:37   exploiting this material I think there's

01:15:39   a way around it a question then on that

01:15:41   right so let's let's say that that

01:15:43   button exists in your metric of mental

01:15:46   appropriateness here do you think that

01:15:49   the television news should follow that

01:15:52   as well right to say for an incident

01:15:54   like this blackout on ads for the next

01:15:58   several hours the TV rolling news

01:16:00   networks are like I'm sorry we're not

01:16:02   gonna sell soap anymore in between

01:16:05   telling you about the state of the world

01:16:06   we're gonna turn all of that off or is

01:16:09   there something that is different about

01:16:11   the online medium to you do you know

01:16:15   what the reason I hesitate to answer

01:16:16   that is because I don't actually know

01:16:18   what their policies are I have suspect

01:16:20   they do have policies where they pull

01:16:22   back on stuff like that I don't know

01:16:24   that they don't do that already normal

01:16:27   TV stations that aren't news channels

01:16:28   have policies of cutting into their

01:16:30   programming

01:16:30   when major incidents happen and don't

01:16:32   run ads like instead of showing today's

01:16:35   game show full of ads we interrupt this

01:16:37   programming to tell you that this

01:16:38   terrible tragedies happen and we're

01:16:39   gonna just cover this for the next few

01:16:41   hours and they'll have no ads mm-hmm so

01:16:43   I am aware that TV networks are willing

01:16:45   to sacrifice advertising I don't know

01:16:48   what you know you CNN's of the world I

01:16:50   don't know what their policy is when

01:16:51   something massive happens whether they

01:16:53   go into a no ad mode so I'm reluctant to

01:16:56   answer your question if I don't know

01:16:59   what the situation is anyway I don't

01:17:00   know that they don't do that yeah but

01:17:01   what I'm asking is it but whether they

01:17:03   do whether they don't do you think that

01:17:05   they should yes I do think that they

01:17:08   should okay I think I think when

01:17:10   something like this is happening you say

01:17:12   all right no Coke ads for the next four

01:17:15   hours right I understand maybe for

01:17:18   technical reasons they need breaks in

01:17:20   programming but I think they we can go

01:17:22   to bumpers and fillers and things that

01:17:24   are not commercial transactions you can

01:17:28   put up something a screensaver I mean

01:17:30   they have these things so yeah yeah

01:17:32   that's that's what I think it just felt

01:17:33   a bit wrong to me but it is very

01:17:36   difficult and you raise all the quest

01:17:38   you raised a completely legitimate and

01:17:39   like and I don't know where the

01:17:41   boundaries are on how bad an incident

01:17:43   does it have to be and how long do you

01:17:45   not do ads for I don't know the answers

01:17:48   to those questions but I just know I

01:17:50   felt during this incident I felt like

01:17:52   there was some wrongness they're all on

01:17:53   the spectrum of things that and also

01:17:55   it's funny to find myself on this side

01:17:57   of the argument but the one other thing

01:17:58   that I think is important to point out

01:18:00   that is very easy to forget after the

01:18:03   fact and I'm not saying that this was

01:18:05   the case for this particular incident

01:18:07   but with many incidents it's often not

01:18:10   clear the scale of it for a while yeah

01:18:13   it can be easy to do retro actively say

01:18:16   like oh this should have been handled in

01:18:18   this way or that way

01:18:19   yeah but people forget very quickly it's

01:18:21   like okay but yes once you know what the

01:18:22   situation is

01:18:24   it's like people's brains completely

01:18:26   forget the uncertainty time where it's

01:18:28   like Oh shots fired and that's all we

01:18:30   know right when I was standing at that

01:18:32   window with those two people who'd been

01:18:34   part of the incident and who had seen

01:18:35   people get shot mm-hmm the official

01:18:37   number was still two people dead and

01:18:39   they even said like the one of the guys

01:18:41   who was there said eh apparently it's

01:18:42   two people dead mm-hmm and I said I

01:18:44   reckon that's gonna end up being higher

01:18:45   from why I've heard and he said yeah it

01:18:46   might be so he was there right and two

01:18:49   people seemed feasible to him well and

01:18:51   also eyewitness reports are worthless

01:18:53   but I just I think that's also just a

01:18:54   thing to point out that yeah I think

01:18:56   sometimes we are very quick to

01:18:59   retroactively Lee condemn and forget how

01:19:03   uncertain a situation was at the start

01:19:06   yeah but that can also just add to

01:19:08   delays or uncertainties about like oh

01:19:10   we're gonna demonetized stuff like you

01:19:12   can't know straight away like oh yes

01:19:15   this is this is the worst disaster of

01:19:16   this kind in American history so maybe

01:19:18   we should stop selling bubble gum you

01:19:21   can't know that immediately so to

01:19:22   transition it quickly to YouTube I've

01:19:25   since seen this other thing that was

01:19:27   chugging along on Twitter which I found

01:19:29   interesting and wondered if you'd saw

01:19:31   and what you thought about it and that

01:19:33   was the super uber famous YouTube

01:19:37   superstar Casey Neistat made a video

01:19:41   about the incident where basically he

01:19:44   was just appealing he was trying to use

01:19:45   his influence to get people to give

01:19:47   money for victims of the tragedy just

01:19:49   shooting and basically what he was

01:19:51   saying

01:19:51   was I've started this GoFundMe page

01:19:54   please give some money to it it seemed

01:19:57   like quite a heartfelt plea and he also

01:20:00   said I'm running Adsense ads on this

01:20:03   video and the money I make from this

01:20:06   video is going to go towards the money

01:20:09   that we're raising for the victims and

01:20:11   then what happened was the video got

01:20:14   demonetised

01:20:15   by YouTube mhm they overrode his

01:20:17   monetization of the video and he

01:20:20   complained on Twitter about this and

01:20:21   they replied and said we think your

01:20:24   heart was in the right place but we do

01:20:25   have this policy of not allowing

01:20:26   monetization of tragic events no

01:20:29   surprise there YouTube thinks that some

01:20:32   some deranged math videos are far too

01:20:35   risque for monetization so I think like

01:20:38   a YouTube video that's explicitly about

01:20:40   a tragedy probably gonna run afoul

01:20:42   pretty fast of the YouTube gods of

01:20:45   monetization so some people have been

01:20:47   quick to point out other videos they

01:20:49   found on YouTube about the tragedy that

01:20:52   do remain monetized so I don't really

01:20:55   want to get too caught up in those weeds

01:20:57   of like the inadequacy of the

01:20:59   demagnetization because that's a whole

01:21:01   other conversation we do we don't need

01:21:03   to get caught up in those weeds but I do

01:21:04   you just want to put a little marker

01:21:05   here for again my constant drumbeat that

01:21:08   I think YouTube being in the game of

01:21:11   having to classify content is an

01:21:14   eternally losing position yes they're

01:21:16   always going to lose and I still think

01:21:20   YouTube is in a strong enough market

01:21:21   position that they don't have to play

01:21:23   this game like I think they could stop

01:21:25   doing it but it's like once you open

01:21:26   that door it never ends and this is

01:21:29   always going to be a problem let's

01:21:32   pretend older videos had been

01:21:33   demagnetized correctly and there wasn't

01:21:35   problems with their sieve right and the

01:21:38   Casey Neistat video was demonetized by

01:21:40   YouTube as it was do you think that is

01:21:43   is wrong and he should be allowed to run

01:21:46   ads on a video about the tragedy more a

01:21:51   general video not I mean I know what he

01:21:53   was doing was obviously a in the right

01:21:55   place type thing but do you think this

01:21:57   is a bad policy of YouTube's then to D

01:21:59   monetize videos about tragedies well

01:22:03   I don't like this gigantic bowl of

01:22:05   spaghetti that just feels to me like on

01:22:08   the years over YouTube it keeps getting

01:22:12   more complicated and more arbitrary it's

01:22:16   a frustrating situation for everyone

01:22:17   involved because I think people feel

01:22:19   like they get caught out by these rules

01:22:22   and categorizations and the rules and

01:22:25   categorizations are not enforced

01:22:28   consistently and they're impossible to

01:22:30   be enforced consistently the nature of

01:22:33   advertising always has this issue where

01:22:36   you don't have a a two-party interaction

01:22:40   you have a three party interaction you

01:22:43   have the creator the advertiser and the

01:22:46   audience advertising and advertisements

01:22:48   work because the Creator is siphoning

01:22:52   off a portion of the audience attention

01:22:54   for the advertiser like that's how

01:22:56   advertisements work on hello Internet

01:22:57   we're gathering up all this audience

01:22:59   attention and we sell part of it off to

01:23:02   advertisers like and that's how the

01:23:03   podcast makes money but it always a but

01:23:06   when you have a three party interaction

01:23:08   it's like one of the reasons why it

01:23:10   comes up as a topic on the show a lot is

01:23:12   because it does complicate things and

01:23:15   like should he'd be able to monetize the

01:23:19   videos it's like well that depends on

01:23:22   how the advertisers feel about it and

01:23:24   the answer is like the advertisers have

01:23:26   almost certainly pressured YouTube to

01:23:29   try to have this system to remove their

01:23:32   their ads from sensitive stuff and so

01:23:34   since that system is in place like I

01:23:36   don't really think Casey Neistat has a

01:23:37   leg to stand on about being angry about

01:23:41   this or feeling like he got caught out

01:23:43   by a thing I am kind of surprised that

01:23:45   you thought the video could be monetized

01:23:48   before we go on with the point you're

01:23:50   making because I want to discuss it more

01:23:51   but I can see why he didn't want to

01:23:52   leave money on the table like he was

01:23:54   like I want to make as much money for

01:23:55   this cause as possible and if a

01:23:57   bazillion people are gonna watch my

01:23:59   video I may as well make as much as I

01:24:01   can out of it but I am surprised by his

01:24:03   decision to monetize the video like

01:24:05   whether YouTube overrode him or not yeah

01:24:07   I would not have recommended he did it I

01:24:09   think it was not the best decision I'll

01:24:11   agree with that you know I mean 40

01:24:13   percent of the money's going to YouTube

01:24:14   anyway

01:24:15   there's a bunch of people who are gonna

01:24:17   be making money selling you know face

01:24:21   moisturizer on the back of a really

01:24:24   horrible event I think it was not not an

01:24:27   excellent decision anyway this is like

01:24:29   this is a more clear-cut case but when I

01:24:31   was mentioned before about there's being

01:24:33   three parties there's also this thing

01:24:35   that gets a little bit complicated like

01:24:36   you're diverting the sponsors money to a

01:24:43   particular charity and like maybe the

01:24:46   sponsor might have something that they

01:24:47   would want to say about that you know I

01:24:49   can't imagine if a major news network

01:24:51   said we're going to cover this tragedy

01:24:53   and we're going to run ads and we're

01:24:56   also going to take all of the money from

01:24:57   these ads and devote it to a particular

01:25:00   charity that is related to this thing

01:25:02   it's like interesting interesting

01:25:04   argument that I'm surprised you've made

01:25:05   I think it's a decent argument but you

01:25:08   don't think the money has become Casey's

01:25:10   money after the transactions taking

01:25:12   place don't get me wrong I think that

01:25:14   the money is Casey's money right or I

01:25:17   think that the money is the news

01:25:19   networks money but nonetheless I think

01:25:22   there is a way in which you are roping

01:25:27   in the sponsors to some extent to be

01:25:30   part of this thing most of the time I

01:25:33   don't think anybody would really care

01:25:34   but there is a way in which I feel like

01:25:37   you're bringing them along for the ride

01:25:38   and again it's just like it's just it's

01:25:40   just more complicated than the simple

01:25:42   thing of saying hey let's raise money

01:25:45   for this thing there's a webpage where

01:25:46   you you watching right now can just

01:25:50   donate your money to this thing in

01:25:51   whatever amount that you what gray like

01:25:53   that line that you're drawing between

01:25:55   the advertiser and the cause which i

01:25:57   think is a completely legitimate line to

01:25:59   draw is the exact reason the ad

01:26:01   pocalypse was manufactured because of

01:26:03   the line being drawn between the

01:26:05   advertiser and the dodgy material being

01:26:07   uploaded by terrorist organizations on

01:26:09   youtube it's exact same problem well

01:26:11   yeah and I think if you mentally invert

01:26:13   this there's a much easier way to see

01:26:16   like oh the advertisers are seriously

01:26:17   would care where if Casey and I sat or

01:26:20   any youtuber said oh I'm uploading a

01:26:22   video and all of the money from this

01:26:23   video is going to the institution to

01:26:25   kick puppies say well yes

01:26:28   the money's Casey's money or the

01:26:29   is the youtubers money but it's like

01:26:30   sudden suddenly the advertisers they

01:26:32   would care and this is again it's why

01:26:33   like this whole ad pocalypse which we

01:26:35   just like can never separate ourselves

01:26:37   from that's why I I still think that the

01:26:40   cleaner though obviously unworkable now

01:26:42   solution is for YouTube to simply say

01:26:44   it's like hey you can advertise on our

01:26:45   system and you don't necessarily know

01:26:47   what your ties you against the end like

01:26:50   that that's just the way it works and

01:26:51   we're not gonna get involved in this end

01:26:52   this morass but that's not gonna happen

01:26:54   there's a thing however that I don't

01:26:56   really understand very well about the

01:26:58   news coverage of these kind of events do

01:27:01   you know if news organizations have some

01:27:02   some kind of special rule that allows

01:27:05   them to use content that other people

01:27:09   have created like if it is quote

01:27:12   newsworthy like like is there a way in

01:27:14   which your regular guy walking down the

01:27:17   street in Japan in the 1940s and you're

01:27:21   the one guy who films like the bombing

01:27:23   of Hiroshima right and you put you put

01:27:26   it up on YouTube because YouTube exists

01:27:28   in the 1940s is there like a way that

01:27:30   it's newsworthiness strips it in a sense

01:27:34   of of the copyright like because this is

01:27:36   a thing that I never quite understand

01:27:37   when I see footage on the news I've been

01:27:39   thinking about this a lot actually and I

01:27:41   want to talk about this again a bit

01:27:43   later in the show if we come to another

01:27:44   topic I've got on the list cuz I've got

01:27:45   another question about I wanted to put

01:27:47   to you but the thing you've asked it now

01:27:49   the answer to that question is I don't

01:27:52   know I'm not a lawyer or an expert but

01:27:55   my belief and my strong strong suspicion

01:27:58   is there is a stripping of some of the

01:28:02   protection because of the newsworthiness

01:28:04   for contemporaneous news reporting but I

01:28:08   do think you would still have some

01:28:10   protection later on if it was used in

01:28:13   like you know documentaries and more

01:28:15   commercial ventures but I think while

01:28:16   it's a new story hmm I think there is an

01:28:19   allowance for contemporaneous fair use

01:28:22   it's an interesting distinction a true

01:28:25   example that has been kicking around for

01:28:27   many many years is the Sapru the film of

01:28:29   the Kennedy assassination right so

01:28:31   there's been endless copyright battles

01:28:33   over ownership and commercial

01:28:35   exploitation of that film because it's

01:28:36   the best film of that incident but I

01:28:40   would imagine I don't know but I would

01:28:41   imagine if YouTube had been around

01:28:43   the time and Zapruder had uploaded it

01:28:46   you know for a week or two everyone

01:28:49   would have been using it who would not

01:28:50   use it you know it would have been

01:28:51   everywhere hmm although cultural 1960s

01:28:55   things aside maybe it wouldn't have been

01:28:56   used but in the modern era

01:28:58   it would have been everywhere and then a

01:29:00   bit later when people started wanting to

01:29:03   use it for their films and documentaries

01:29:05   and and other things it would have been

01:29:07   a bit more show me the money

01:29:09   hmm that's what I think but it's just me

01:29:12   I'm not next to it yeah I just wonder

01:29:15   about it because I was thinking about it

01:29:16   because I know that there are at least

01:29:19   in the u.s. I don't quite know the case

01:29:20   in the UK but in the u.s. there are

01:29:22   definitely rules about how when a person

01:29:25   crosses some imaginary threshold called

01:29:27   like the notable person threshold like

01:29:30   there are lots of things that then

01:29:32   they're able to be treated differently

01:29:33   like in the public sphere in a way that

01:29:35   if it was like a private citizen you

01:29:36   would say like oh this is totally

01:29:38   harassment or this like a ridiculous

01:29:39   invasion of the privacy

01:29:41   I was wondering like oh is that is there

01:29:42   something like that for copyright where

01:29:45   there's some threshold where is like

01:29:47   well this is just too notable and the

01:29:50   material is too relevant for it to have

01:29:54   the normal protection so that there must

01:29:55   be there must be something that's like

01:29:56   that yeah but I don't know I'm sure

01:29:59   there'll be lots of copyright warriors

01:30:03   in the subreddit who set a straight

01:30:05   what's what yeah there always will be

01:30:08   and the great irony of course is that

01:30:10   machinery will be running ads on this

01:30:12   podcast well this is the funny thing

01:30:15   right which is there's ads on this show

01:30:19   how many levels of meta does it have to

01:30:22   be before it feels like it's okay

01:30:24   because we are clearly not actually

01:30:27   talking about the event itself like

01:30:29   we've sort of barely touched on the

01:30:30   event itself we're talking about the

01:30:32   events around the event yeah in the

01:30:35   Brady mental metric of what isn't is not

01:30:37   okay is one level of meta good enough

01:30:41   like it better be because we have some

01:30:43   ads booked for this show by the way like

01:30:45   I said great I don't know where the line

01:30:47   is it's just like for me it's just a

01:30:49   feeling and I feel like we're okay in

01:30:51   the podcast so you go ahead

01:30:53   I'm not gonna put an ad right after this

01:30:56   section that transition to something

01:30:58   else so yeah that's just it there needs

01:31:00   to be a little bit of space right we

01:31:02   can't we can't have the doodle

01:31:03   right now exactly and in a way is that

01:31:06   not like a micro version of the macro of

01:31:08   what I was talking about there is a time

01:31:10   there is a time when it just feels wrong

01:31:12   to be making money and in like a podcast

01:31:15   maybe it's just another 10-15 minutes

01:31:17   and when the event is actually happening

01:31:20   and at CNN maybe it's two or three hours

01:31:23   but there is it's there we all feel that

01:31:25   you feel it you know we all feel that

01:31:27   there is a respectful distance between

01:31:31   big big human tragedy and making money a

01:31:37   gray another kind of in the news type

01:31:40   one that I wanted to quickly ask you

01:31:41   about the Nobel Prize in Physics was

01:31:46   just recently awarded for 2017 and it

01:31:49   was given for the gravitational waves

01:31:52   and I stop you right there Brady by the

01:31:54   Nobel Prizes the different ones the

01:31:56   physics one the chemists I feel like the

01:31:58   Nobel Prizes come up so many times in

01:31:59   this podcast are they giving out at

01:32:01   different times of the year no they do

01:32:03   them all in like a batch they can also

01:32:05   under salute a couple of weeks later but

01:32:07   they have them day after day or

01:32:09   consecutive days normally I thought

01:32:10   there was no economics Nobel Prize yeah

01:32:12   there is but it's done by a different

01:32:14   mob so it's like the Nobel Prize that's

01:32:16   not a Nobel Prize okay all right so the

01:32:19   Nobel Prizes are all done at the same

01:32:20   time it's just my perception of time is

01:32:22   terrible that's what it is yeah okay I

01:32:25   think it's your perception of time okay

01:32:27   got it right so they the physics one has

01:32:31   been given for the gravitational wave

01:32:34   discovery and it was given jointly to

01:32:38   three gentlemen who were involved with

01:32:42   the organizations that made the

01:32:45   discovery now almost more than any other

01:32:48   Nobel Prize that's been given out this

01:32:50   has brought to a head what I think is a

01:32:52   problem for the Nobel Prize and I don't

01:32:54   know which side of the fence I'm on and

01:32:57   that is is it right because as a rule

01:32:59   that Nobel Prizes have to be given to

01:33:01   people individuals and no more than

01:33:04   three so they gave this one to people

01:33:06   who were quite

01:33:07   and quite important to do with this LIGO

01:33:10   detector that made the discovery but

01:33:12   LIGO is this massive collaboration

01:33:14   there's these two huge facilities on

01:33:16   different parts of America that made the

01:33:18   discovery lots and lots of different

01:33:20   people are involved but just three

01:33:22   people get the medal and the money and

01:33:25   as science becomes bigger and bigger and

01:33:27   more collaborative more and more people

01:33:30   are starting to rumble about being

01:33:31   unhappy about this Nobel Prize rule and

01:33:34   they think why don't just give it to an

01:33:36   organization why not just say the Nobel

01:33:38   Prize goes to the LIGO collaboration why

01:33:42   does it have to be given to people now

01:33:44   before you all jump up and down I am

01:33:46   aware that the Nobel Peace Prize does

01:33:48   get given to organizations but we're not

01:33:50   talking about the Nobel Peace Prize

01:33:51   because I think that's a very very

01:33:52   different kettle of fish

01:33:54   to the other ones and that's a dopey

01:33:56   prize anyway let's be honest yeah it's

01:33:58   becoming more and more questionable

01:33:59   every year that for us that's the real

01:34:01   special child of the Nobel Prizes yeah

01:34:03   sorry if there's any Tim's out there

01:34:05   clutching a Nobel Peace Prize in their

01:34:07   hands at this very moment but that's

01:34:08   clearly the worst one coming back to the

01:34:11   science once people are saying come on

01:34:13   this is an old-fashioned rogue science

01:34:15   has moved on it's not like you know a

01:34:17   lone genius burning the midnight oil

01:34:18   coming up with an amazing discovery it's

01:34:21   the hour these massive massive

01:34:22   multinational thousands of people

01:34:25   collaborations and just cherry picking

01:34:27   one or two people is becoming nearly

01:34:30   impossible I'm wondering what you think

01:34:32   about that because here are the two

01:34:34   arguments in my mind one is of course

01:34:37   that's correct it's time to move on and

01:34:39   give the prizes to organizations but the

01:34:42   other argument and the one that I feel

01:34:44   quite strongly is that the Nobel Prize

01:34:46   as much as being a prize for scientists

01:34:49   is like a massive PR exercise for

01:34:53   science and the giving it to people is

01:34:56   like the Olympics and you get these

01:34:57   heroes and amazing stories and it's

01:35:00   about like personality and tales to be

01:35:02   told and things like that and if we just

01:35:04   start making it like corporate awards

01:35:07   the nobel prize goes to the LIGO

01:35:09   collaboration that means nothing like it

01:35:12   doesn't speak to me it doesn't seem

01:35:14   quite as visceral a story it's not as

01:35:17   inspiring to me and I think the Nobel

01:35:19   Prize have a very important role

01:35:21   in the world and for science in doing

01:35:23   that so what do you think Amy those are

01:35:26   two good arguments Brady but there's

01:35:28   there's another thing here which is

01:35:30   you're leaving out the wishes of poor

01:35:33   Alfred Nobel he set up this foundation

01:35:36   right yeah he set up this foundation to

01:35:40   promote goodness and science forever and

01:35:44   he set up the rules presumably Alfred

01:35:48   Nobel set up the rules saying that it's

01:35:51   going to be given to people is not going

01:35:53   to be give organizations do you want to

01:35:55   reach back in time and destroy the

01:35:57   tradition and destroy the wishes of

01:35:59   Alfred Nobel and the foundation that he

01:36:01   set up like is that a thing that you

01:36:02   would want to do or do you think that we

01:36:04   should honor the intent of the founder

01:36:07   here for all time like can this even be

01:36:10   a thing that we could change you said

01:36:12   the word there yourself though the

01:36:14   intent mm-hmm what was his intent versus

01:36:17   the words of his will well that's where

01:36:21   you're getting into some like Weasley

01:36:22   lawyer stuff I think right I think that

01:36:24   like the words of the will are like this

01:36:26   is what we have we have language to try

01:36:28   to describe what it is that we want to

01:36:30   do should the words of the foundation

01:36:33   that the founder has set up be able to

01:36:36   be James that's like a clear-cut

01:36:37   question about whether whether or not

01:36:40   like you can undo what the founder

01:36:43   wanted I mean the argument against that

01:36:45   is that so long ago he didn't foresee

01:36:48   what science would become this kind of

01:36:50   you know multinational collaboration of

01:36:52   what would be necessary to advance

01:36:53   science because he wanted to advance

01:36:55   science and he lived at a time when two

01:36:58   or three people could advance science

01:37:00   just laboring away in their lab whereas

01:37:02   there's not much science that can be

01:37:04   advanced in that way anymore I do agree

01:37:06   with that times change right and you

01:37:08   can't foresee the future like the

01:37:09   Constitution of the United States right

01:37:11   has a mechanism to amend itself because

01:37:13   a bunch of farmers 300 years ago they

01:37:17   can't know the future but I came

01:37:19   slightly uncomfortable with the idea of

01:37:21   setting precedences to say like well we

01:37:24   know what the what the founder would

01:37:27   have really wanted I think that's a it's

01:37:29   a door that's a little bit dangerous to

01:37:31   open and I think it's interesting

01:37:33   because some foundations are

01:37:34   set up with like a countdown clock mmm I

01:37:38   think most famously the

01:37:39   Gates Foundation has this where whatever

01:37:42   it is like Dave the Gates's die there's

01:37:46   a clock that counts down for something

01:37:48   like 50 years and at the end of that

01:37:50   time all of the money in the Gates

01:37:52   Foundation has to have been spent the

01:37:54   reason that that is set up is precisely

01:37:57   so that the foundation doesn't become a

01:38:00   thing that the drifts too far away from

01:38:03   its original intentions that's a thing

01:38:06   that can happen but it's obviously not a

01:38:08   thing that Alfred Nobel himself actually

01:38:09   did so I don't know I feel kind of

01:38:12   biased towards respecting the wishes of

01:38:14   the original founder and not changing

01:38:17   here's the slightly tricky bit grey I'm

01:38:20   reading no bells will at the moment oh

01:38:21   okay you pulled it up right okay great

01:38:24   yeah and I'm aware that the Noble

01:38:26   Foundation like the prize people have a

01:38:28   statute that says no more than three

01:38:30   people can have the prize but I can't

01:38:32   actually find it in his will and the

01:38:35   will dispose to a person it shall go to

01:38:39   the person who won part two the person

01:38:42   who made the most important discovery or

01:38:44   invention in the field of physics mhm

01:38:45   one part of the person who made the most

01:38:47   important chemical discovery or

01:38:49   improvement he actually also for the

01:38:51   Peace Prize there's literature as well

01:38:53   and for the Peace Prize he also talks

01:38:55   about the person who have done the most

01:38:57   best work for fraternity between Nations

01:38:59   for the abolition or reduction of

01:39:01   standing armies and holding and

01:39:03   promotion of peace congresses

01:39:04   so if you actually go to the wording of

01:39:07   his will then you are there are freed up

01:39:10   somewhat or you're more restricted to

01:39:13   give it to one person each time well it

01:39:15   sounds like at the very least there's

01:39:16   already been monkeying around so that

01:39:18   door isn't okay great so screw you know

01:39:23   I'm a sure thing I'm looking at the full

01:39:25   will but your position is if his will

01:39:27   specifically said three you have to

01:39:29   stick with it

01:39:29   if you've already monkeyed then more

01:39:32   monkeying is permissible okay just to

01:39:34   finish the discussion then let's say

01:39:37   that you are comfortable with monkeying

01:39:39   the genies out of the bottle they've

01:39:40   already changed the rules once so now

01:39:42   rule changes are allowed do you think

01:39:46   you should recognize multi

01:39:48   collaborations and start giving the

01:39:49   prize to institutions or do you still

01:39:54   think the magic of the Nobel Prize and

01:39:55   the geniuses and the stories of

01:39:58   individuals is more valuable than

01:40:01   correct recognition I mean you're not

01:40:04   gonna like hearing this pretty but I'm

01:40:05   not sure how valuable this story thing

01:40:08   is I think your brain is biased towards

01:40:12   that like you always loved the stories

01:40:13   of the thing and I find that very

01:40:15   charming about you but I just I don't

01:40:17   know how valuable that really is outside

01:40:20   of the world of people who are involved

01:40:23   in some way

01:40:24   I don't agree I've met Nobel Prize with

01:40:34   a perfect it's an intoxicating thing

01:40:40   having a Nobel Prize when I go to a

01:40:42   school and talk to the kids and having a

01:40:44   Nobel Prize winner in the room they're

01:40:46   like celebrities and people I'm sorry

01:40:49   people are engaged by like celebrity and

01:40:51   fame and money you get a million dollars

01:40:53   you get a golden medal people are

01:40:56   engaged by that they're not engaged by

01:40:59   an organization with an acronym they've

01:41:02   never heard of okay my argument is not

01:41:04   everybody loves acronyms more than they

01:41:06   love people yeah I'm not convinced that

01:41:08   a Nobel prize-winner giving a talk at an

01:41:12   assembly at a random American high

01:41:14   school actually has a lot of pole with

01:41:17   the audience there I guess there are

01:41:18   ambassadors that may be choosing a

01:41:20   school wasn't a good one they're

01:41:23   ambassadors like labeling someone as a

01:41:25   Nobel Prize winner is just automatically

01:41:27   inspiring that's what like even fiction

01:41:29   people do it are the president bartlet

01:41:31   in the West Wing was a Nobel Prize

01:41:32   winner and that comes up all the time in

01:41:34   the show because it's like it gives him

01:41:35   a magic it gives him a you know

01:41:37   something special it's the same reason

01:41:39   in sports that at the end of the Super

01:41:42   Bowl they also named an MVP because

01:41:46   people want an individual hero to pin a

01:41:49   medal on that's like a special thing we

01:41:52   do it in sports we do it in lots of

01:41:54   fields of endeavor like we want to put a

01:41:55   medal on someone is the best because it

01:41:58   speaks to ourselves

01:42:00   it speaks to us to have the best and the

01:42:03   champions and some people will say well

01:42:05   that's a misrepresentation of science

01:42:06   and that's destructive and we should

01:42:09   just we should put tre science the way

01:42:11   it really is but I don't agree I think

01:42:14   it's like a little bit of gold dust

01:42:17   sprinkled on science and you're being

01:42:18   too serious if you think this is wrong

01:42:20   it shouldn't have gone to those three

01:42:21   people it should have gone to a thousand

01:42:23   people like you're missing the point of

01:42:25   the Nobel Prize like the science is the

01:42:28   science the paper has been published the

01:42:30   science has been done and it's out there

01:42:31   and everyone's had their salary paid and

01:42:33   everyone's got their warm glow from

01:42:34   doing the science the nobel prize is not

01:42:37   about apportioning proper recognition

01:42:39   the Sun Nobel Prize is not decided

01:42:42   scientifically the Nobel Prize is

01:42:44   something else the Nobel Prize is like

01:42:46   showmanship and I think that's what

01:42:49   people need to realize so in this

01:42:50   telling of the story the Nobel Prize is

01:42:53   a fiction that is created around what

01:42:57   has occurred that's what it is it's like

01:42:59   I think fiction is a naughty word and

01:43:01   I'm not gonna accept fiction but I will

01:43:03   take showmanship no scientific the Nobel

01:43:07   Prize is a show it's about golden medals

01:43:10   and vast sums of money and meeting the

01:43:12   king and then traveling the world and

01:43:15   telling people how wonderful science is

01:43:16   and stuff it's a show we put on and it's

01:43:18   based in fact you don't just give it to

01:43:20   whoever it is the best public speaker

01:43:21   right saying to have been some rigor in

01:43:26   the decision but this is wow this is

01:43:27   what I'm wondering that was like if like

01:43:28   showmanship is the thing that you value

01:43:30   then we're starting to edge dangerously

01:43:32   towards a like okay but then what why

01:43:36   are we sort of pretending like three and

01:43:40   a maximum three number of people are the

01:43:42   ones responsible for this great

01:43:43   discovery okay that's part of the show

01:43:45   then think that it's almost like it's a

01:43:47   fiction that they're the ones who are

01:43:49   responsible for them those people spend

01:43:52   the rest of their life saying how they

01:43:53   were part of a big team and they're

01:43:56   already the pit you know the three

01:43:57   winners this year have been been because

01:43:59   they're racked with the guilt the guilt

01:44:01   of receiving this prize this prize that

01:44:04   is a lie they're the ones who made the

01:44:08   thing look fair enough right if people

01:44:09   get their way and the Nobel price

01:44:11   changes and starts being a

01:44:12   to organizations and corporations and

01:44:15   institutions that's fine and those

01:44:18   people will be happy but just be aware

01:44:19   the Nobel Prize will no longer be useful

01:44:22   it will fade into obscurity and it will

01:44:25   become like the West Somerset and your

01:44:28   tourism business Awards doing wrong I

01:44:30   think you're totally right about that

01:44:31   and the Nobel Prize does have a

01:44:33   particular place in the cultural mindset

01:44:38   but I think this is this is actually a

01:44:41   legitimate thing to discuss because

01:44:44   obviously I'm using the word fiction to

01:44:46   provoke you here Brady because it's fun

01:44:48   but yes but I'm also using the word

01:44:51   fiction because I do think that it

01:44:53   provokes because there is an element of

01:44:56   truth to it there is something that I

01:44:59   think when when I hear about these

01:45:01   things with the Nobel Prize and

01:45:02   organizations that particularly with the

01:45:04   arrow of time is only going to become

01:45:06   more and more true that it is awarded to

01:45:09   people who are a smaller and smaller

01:45:13   portion of the people even overseeing

01:45:15   the experiment that it does become more

01:45:20   misrepresentative of the thing that has

01:45:22   occurred over time and it's like well

01:45:26   does the Nobel Prize become a thing that

01:45:29   is a boring award between an

01:45:31   organization to another organization

01:45:33   it's like well yes maybe that is what it

01:45:37   becomes because that is the thing that

01:45:40   is happening the story around the award

01:45:43   is the representation of reality that in

01:45:46   order to make any progress particularly

01:45:47   in a field like physics you need

01:45:50   thousands and thousands of people by and

01:45:54   you need billions of dollars and you

01:45:56   need huge amounts of time because

01:45:58   physics is a field that has progressed

01:46:00   so far like you're just not going to

01:46:01   make progress otherwise that's a good

01:46:04   point you make and you can almost say it

01:46:07   serves science interests for science to

01:46:09   be depicted realistically but I don't

01:46:12   think that serve science interests

01:46:14   because this is what happens say like I

01:46:17   got this Nobel price mm-hmm right and

01:46:19   then in five years time

01:46:22   LIGO needs 10 billion dollars from the

01:46:25   government

01:46:26   to do the next thing they want to do

01:46:28   they need that money if you walk into

01:46:31   the room as the chief executive of LIGO

01:46:35   and say to the President of the United

01:46:37   States sir we really want this money and

01:46:40   he says or she says what have you done

01:46:42   what have you done to get this money and

01:46:44   they replied oh we won the Nobel Prize

01:46:46   like I won the Nobel Prize it's like oh

01:46:49   that's good but you're not having you

01:46:51   know you've already won the prize we're

01:46:52   not gonna give you ten billion dollars

01:46:54   but if an individual can walk into the

01:46:56   room with the aura of being a Nobel

01:46:58   Prize winner as a representative of

01:47:00   Largay and say oh look that's Kip Thorne

01:47:02   he won the Nobel Prize he has more clout

01:47:06   he's more of a celebrity as an

01:47:08   individual Nobel Prize winner with a

01:47:09   story and a medal and he met the king

01:47:11   and he's travelled the world and he's

01:47:12   law that everywhere he goes he has more

01:47:15   cachet I believe as an individual

01:47:18   advocating science than an organization

01:47:21   will have that just has the price

01:47:22   ceiling in its foyer back in wherever

01:47:26   they're based I think I think

01:47:28   individuals are more powerful I think

01:47:30   they're more powerful advocates for

01:47:32   science and they do more good so I think

01:47:34   it's in science as best interests to

01:47:36   keep the Nobel Prize as it is right to

01:47:38   maintain that fiction like I totally

01:47:39   agree with you that the person has more

01:47:42   power but what I think is occurring here

01:47:45   is the person has more power because of

01:47:48   the cultural and nursey behind the

01:47:52   updating the mental model of what the

01:47:53   nobel prize is yes that person has has

01:47:57   more power because we still think of the

01:47:59   Nobel Prize as this great person who has

01:48:03   wrought a discovery from nature

01:48:06   okay like tell me what you did to win

01:48:07   that Nobel Prize as I uh well I I

01:48:09   oversaw a staff of 2,000 people like

01:48:12   yeah okay so I signed everyone's

01:48:15   expenses claim I'm gonna say a thing is

01:48:17   gonna sound absolutely terrible and is

01:48:18   almost certainly not true but it's in

01:48:21   some ways a modern Nobel Prize is is

01:48:24   like an achievement in management award

01:48:25   I think it really is like you have to be

01:48:28   able to oversee this thing you have to

01:48:30   be able to raise funds for it you have

01:48:32   to make sure this whole project that can

01:48:33   take place smoothly over the course of

01:48:35   decades I understand your position that

01:48:37   like an individual has more

01:48:39   power as an ambassador but when the

01:48:42   nature of the thing has changed I think

01:48:46   you're increasingly treading on the

01:48:48   history of the thing as that cultural

01:48:51   power that the person is carrying with

01:48:53   them that is no longer the case I agree

01:48:55   with you that's what science has become

01:48:56   science has become big management but I

01:49:00   don't agree that's what the Nobel Prizes

01:49:01   become and that's what the Nobel Prizes

01:49:03   are fighting not to become this is the

01:49:05   whole conference the Nobel Prize is

01:49:07   fighting not to become management Awards

01:49:08   right and to try and pluck out

01:49:10   individuals but but like why are they

01:49:14   having that conflict in the first place

01:49:16   the reason the conflict is happening is

01:49:19   because the Nobel Prize is not

01:49:21   representing the reality of the

01:49:23   situation that's why the conflict exists

01:49:26   they haven't had a team of three people

01:49:29   in 20 years to award the prize we're

01:49:32   like those three people represent the

01:49:34   sum total of the effort that went into

01:49:37   the prize itself there is a way to split

01:49:40   the difference here which is also

01:49:41   entirely unsatisfying which is to divide

01:49:44   the Nobel Prize among everybody whose

01:49:45   name is on the paper that's not giving

01:49:48   it to an organization but that is taking

01:49:51   the Nobel Prize and shattering it into

01:49:53   two thousand pieces all right so then

01:49:55   it's like everybody gets a tiny speck of

01:49:57   dust of the Nobel Prize to put on their

01:49:59   on their mantelpiece I think it would

01:50:01   take away the utility of the Nobel Prize

01:50:03   but yeah it may like if I had to make a

01:50:06   decision about what to do with the Nobel

01:50:08   Prize in Physics that's probably where I

01:50:11   would draw my own line as I say like I

01:50:13   don't think it makes sense to award it

01:50:15   to an organization but I might say

01:50:18   everybody whose name is on the paper I

01:50:20   mean the Nobel Prize is not given for

01:50:22   one paper it's usually given for a quite

01:50:24   a massive body of work okay all right

01:50:25   well then we'll give it to the

01:50:26   organization forget oh this is too much

01:50:29   this is too much headache this is too

01:50:31   much administration fine well just give

01:50:32   it to the organization the Nobel Prize

01:50:34   it's in a bad situation here though

01:50:37   because I do think that awarding it to

01:50:39   the three there's something about it

01:50:41   that that feels deeply unfair in a way

01:50:46   what they should do and like kind of

01:50:48   what maybe they kind of are doing but

01:50:49   people aren't saying is they need to not

01:50:52   link it so have

01:50:53   early 2-1 discovery so give it to an

01:50:57   individual but for like a body of work

01:51:00   including that discovery but also other

01:51:02   stuff so then it's more of an MVP and

01:51:04   less of a well done on winning the Super

01:51:06   Bowl you know you found the Higgs boson

01:51:08   it's more you're the MVP we think you're

01:51:11   the awesome scientist of the year boom

01:51:13   you've got it and among the things you

01:51:15   did was was win the Super Bowl yeah

01:51:16   you've got to hear Brady it isn't it

01:51:18   Nobel Prize in Physics Lifetime

01:51:21   Achievement Award that's yeah it is

01:51:22   right yeah congratulations you won the

01:51:25   Nobel Prize Lifetime Achievement Award

01:51:26   that does lose the magic of some 18 year

01:51:30   old thinking they can stumble over it

01:51:31   with one great discovery like there is

01:51:33   there is a whole you know penicillin

01:51:35   type serendipity about the Nobel Prize

01:51:36   that people like you will sacrifice that

01:51:38   but it will get you around the

01:51:40   organization problem yeah but again I

01:51:43   think there's I don't like the idea of

01:51:45   selling that false dream to a kid be

01:51:47   like hey you could win the Nobel Prize

01:51:49   too if you just stumble upon a discovery

01:51:51   that is like guaranteed not to happen

01:51:54   particularly in a in a field like

01:51:55   physics I don't like getting people on

01:51:57   board with a with a false representation

01:51:59   of what could possibly happen down the

01:52:01   line that award that the Nobel Prize

01:52:03   holds out is like whoo you too could win

01:52:05   one if you just super clever I said but

01:52:06   that's not true in physics it hasn't

01:52:08   been true in forever so I'm perfectly

01:52:11   fine turning it into Lifetime

01:52:13   Achievement Award that works for me for

01:52:15   the Nobel Prize do you ever wonder why

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01:54:21   well that's the end of the show I like

01:54:25   to spread out the ads as much as

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01:54:29   there was no good place to put the last

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