The Accidental Tech Podcast

244: The Mac Renaissance

 

  oh did you ever modify last week's show [TS]

  notes mark when I had a bet going to see [TS]

  when you would nothing [TS]

  nothing dad don't look I'll look dad [TS]

  don't look dad it's fine dad free show [TS]

  Mike oh is it the title because it's all [TS]

  like small caps on the website so I [TS]

  can't tell if that title no no do you [TS]

  still have your dollar signs in your [TS]

  menu market is here have you fixed that [TS]

  no I fixed it during recording oh yeah [TS]

  okay you can play about the emoji foam [TS]

  oh no yeah you you've already skipped [TS]

  over it then tell me Sonos and google [TS]

  sitting in a tree anchor and amazon kis [TS]

  s ing you mess it up by putting the word [TS]

  are in there are is not in the nursery [TS]

  rhyme that is true that's all I can play [TS]

  it about I have no problem with you [TS]

  doing a cute thing in the show notes I [TS]

  have a problem with you not knowing how [TS]

  the KS Society song goes it would be [TS]

  Sonos and Google sitting in a tree [TS]

  ellipsis next line would be canker in [TS]

  Amazon like have you not you messed it [TS]

  up but it was two different topics I was [TS]

  trying to I was trying to wrestle it [TS]

  away well you blew it you blow it I'm [TS]

  speaking to you two fine gentlemen [TS]

  tonight from the peaks of High Sierra as [TS]

  am I actually but for a bad reason well [TS]

  that's surprising yeah well yeah epithet [TS]

  and that should be a topic today I just [TS]

  put it in and I now have moved it up to [TS]

  the top but we can't get there yet [TS]

  because we have to do some follow-up so [TS]

  since we already are enticing the [TS]

  listeners let's just dive right in John [TS]

  can you tell me about Sky platform [TS]

  exclusivity if you please [TS]

  speculated in the last show that that [TS]

  Sky's exclusivity to the Apple TV would [TS]

  be just like every other exclusive in [TS]

  the gaming world a timed exclusive and [TS]

  that is actually confirmed on that game [TS]

  company's website it says arriving first [TS]

  on iPhone iPad and Apple TV additional [TS]

  platforms to follow no time window given [TS]

  but we'll see how that goes so I might [TS]

  just be able to hold out until it comes [TS]

  out on you know ps4 or whatever and tell [TS]

  me about your chair please I have my [TS]

  chair my ridiculously expensive [TS]

  Herman Miller chair that [TS]

  I've been sitting on since like the last [TS]

  show that where we talked about it or [TS]

  maybe two shows ago I forget but I just [TS]

  want to give an update on how that's [TS]

  going so I did take off both of the arms [TS]

  I had to order another Torx wrench [TS]

  because the one that I had couldn't fit [TS]

  in a little space or whatever but it's [TS]

  go is good to have more allen keys and [TS]

  torque wrenches you know in in metric [TS]

  and standards and all sorts of sizes [TS]

  torques it just comes in its own little [TS]

  sizes t3 is what I needed anyway [TS]

  arms are off 30 I forget anyway one of [TS]

  them I don't think it matters it matters [TS]

  if you want to take the arms off your [TS]

  chair I had a set of Torx Torx wrench [TS]

  things but they didn't fit and they [TS]

  don't make it a couple of those screws [TS]

  are hard to get out because the levers [TS]

  they come out to do that adjust the [TS]

  cedar kind of in the way but it's not [TS]

  that bad just Amazon or some home so [TS]

  I've been sitting in that chair for a [TS]

  while and I have of just some follow-up [TS]

  impressions of it I like it you know [TS]

  it's it takes a little bit of getting [TS]

  used to because it feel like regular [TS]

  chairs but I think I've settled into it [TS]

  pretty well two things about it have [TS]

  annoyed me so far one there is an [TS]

  adjustment on it to make the seat length [TS]

  like basically from the back to the [TS]

  front of the seat to it to make it [TS]

  longer which is great for people with [TS]

  long legs like me because you're not [TS]

  supposed to have like half your leg [TS]

  hanging off the front of the thing so [TS]

  you can make the seat longer I wish more [TS]

  cars had that some of them do some cars [TS]

  actually have this adjustment to sort of [TS]

  support your legs more you know more [TS]

  down towards your knee they say you're [TS]

  supposed to have like you know two [TS]

  inches between the back of your knee or [TS]

  the back of your calf or whatever and [TS]

  then the seat front so the her Miller [TS]

  and body has two big handles that you [TS]

  can grab and slide out the front part of [TS]

  the chair which I do but unless you are [TS]

  in a situation where you're sharing your [TS]

  chair with somebody else and constantly [TS]

  switching back and forth this like many [TS]

  of the adjustments on chairs is [TS]

  something that you'll do once or twice [TS]

  in the beginning when you're getting [TS]

  used to the chair and you'll eventually [TS]

  decide what adjustment setting is right [TS]

  for me there's only a few choices there [TS]

  there's not like an infinite [TS]

  adjustability and you find how the seat [TS]

  is come feel for you and you leave it [TS]

  there but for the entire time you own [TS]

  this chair these two Mickey Mouse ears [TS]

  coffee cup mug handles are going to be [TS]

  sticking out the [TS]

  of your chair and every time I get into [TS]

  and out of my chair somehow I bump into [TS]

  those things they're like ears like [TS]

  useless ears fossilized ears poking out [TS]

  at the front of the chair and I don't [TS]

  like that [TS]

  second thing is since I have it extended [TS]

  almost as far as it will go I think [TS]

  maybe I do have as far as it will go for [TS]

  my long legs there's like a little bit [TS]

  of a creak enos in the front of the [TS]

  chair as that a little telescoping thing [TS]

  kind of flexes and it's in its plastic [TS]

  grooves [TS]

  maybe that squeak will go away over time [TS]

  maybe it won't but it's not a sort of [TS]

  it's not a sound any feeling that [TS]

  matches up with the price of this chair [TS]

  so I really like that and then the final [TS]

  thing there's a lot of stuff under this [TS]

  chair for all of these spring-loaded [TS]

  like mechanisms that handle the thing [TS]

  where you lean back in the chair and [TS]

  some of it probably also handles like [TS]

  the the back tension and then there's [TS]

  the gas cylinder thing for the height of [TS]

  the chair that giant box of works that's [TS]

  basically under your butt takes up a [TS]

  surprising amount of room and you say [TS]

  who cares about that room nothing's [TS]

  going on on to your chair right well [TS]

  apparently I'm someone who occasionally [TS]

  crosses his legs and shoves both his [TS]

  feet underneath the bottom of the seat [TS]

  resting them on the top of the little [TS]

  leg thingies and I didn't know I did [TS]

  this as much as I do [TS]

  until my heel started hitting that giant [TS]

  box that I'm now sitting on and I [TS]

  suppose I could get used to it but I'm [TS]

  still hitting my heels in that box [TS]

  surprising amount of time just like I [TS]

  kind of wish I kind of wish that wasn't [TS]

  there I kind of wish I had that free [TS]

  space to shove my feet into again so [TS]

  that's my update on the embody mostly I [TS]

  like it [TS]

  I think definitely gonna keep it but I [TS]

  I'm sitting right now on the steel case [TS]

  gesture chair which just arrived today [TS]

  this still has arms on it and they're [TS]

  gonna be much more difficult to take off [TS]

  I'm already puzzling over how I'm going [TS]

  to manage this but for now the arms are [TS]

  on and I'm sitting on it definitely [TS]

  feels different than the embody but and [TS]

  and it has right away its adjustment for [TS]

  the length of the seat is to move the [TS]

  entire seat forward so it's all just one [TS]

  unit there's no extended bit it has less [TS]

  creaky bits on it and there's more room [TS]

  underneath it for me to cross my legs [TS]

  but it definitely feels different than [TS]

  the embody feels more like a normal [TS]

  chair and I'm not sure if I like it as [TS]

  much [TS]

  the embody but I'm just sitting in it [TS]

  for five minutes here so probably make [TS]

  sure I'll have a more longer-term update [TS]

  on the comparison to these two chairs [TS]

  and I better hurry up because I got like [TS]

  30 days for both of them to decide [TS]

  whether I want my bazillion dollars back [TS]

  for these chairs so last episode I was [TS]

  lamenting the fact that if you have an [TS]

  issue with your Google pixel phone you [TS]

  can get online and you can tell Google [TS]

  hey I've got an issue and they'll [TS]

  overnight you a box with a replacement [TS]

  pixel and then you put your broken pixel [TS]

  into the box and ship it back to them [TS]

  and I thought man that would be really [TS]

  awesome to be able to do that with Apple [TS]

  I wish that was a thing and a handful [TS]

  people wrote in to say it is a thing [TS]

  so John Tooker pointed me to Apple Care [TS]

  Plus Xpress replacement service which is [TS]

  if you have Apple Care plus a way that [TS]

  you can basically do the exact same [TS]

  thing they ship you a box and then you [TS]

  put your thing in the box that the new [TS]

  thing came in etc there's a joke here [TS]

  from Saturday Night Live that I'm trying [TS]

  to avoid anyway pram wrote in to say [TS]

  I've done this and here's what it looks [TS]

  like and so we'll put a link to that in [TS]

  the show notes and it's exactly what you [TS]

  would expect to see so turns out this is [TS]

  an option I just had no idea which if [TS]

  you live far away for an Apple Store [TS]

  which most of the country probably does [TS]

  that's pretty awesome and then [TS]

  additionally via pram they pointed me to [TS]

  a kbase article hi Steven entitled how [TS]

  to use your Apple watch without your [TS]

  iPhone nearby and it says a handful of [TS]

  things in there but one of the things it [TS]

  says is to receive SMS mms or push [TS]

  notifications from third-party apps [TS]

  you're on your Apple watch Series three [TS]

  GPS and cellular you're paired iPhone [TS]

  must be powered on and connected to [TS]

  Wi-Fi or cellular but it doesn't need to [TS]

  be nearby so that kind of hints to me [TS]

  that that Apple is proxying push [TS]

  notifications I have since heard reports [TS]

  that whatsapp I believe that's what it [TS]

  what the app was I know that that is an [TS]

  app I just can't remember what people [TS]

  were citing but a handful of people [TS]

  cited something and I think it was [TS]

  whatsapp as not having an Apple watch [TS]

  app at all [TS]

  yet people receiving push notifications [TS]

  via cellular additionally the developers [TS]

  of do [TS]

  actually wrote us to say do useless [TS]

  local notifications [TS]

  I think the scheduled notifications were [TS]

  copied from the iPhone to the watch the [TS]

  last time they talked and I think one of [TS]

  us had had theorized that that may be [TS]

  the case but it sure sounds like and I [TS]

  have since gotten tacit confirmation [TS]

  from a couple of little birdies that [TS]

  Apple is indeed proxying push [TS]

  notifications via I guess iCloud or [TS]

  something in order for watch your [TS]

  cellular watch to receive push [TS]

  notifications even if it's not in range [TS]

  I have I I have had several people [TS]

  explain to me that I'm a moron in that [TS]

  actually Bluetooth works very far and [TS]

  I'm a moron that the watch was on Wi-Fi [TS]

  but I assure you I checked to see what [TS]

  the watch says it was on and it said it [TS]

  was on cellular at the time so yes I'm [TS]

  aware that the watch does work on [TS]

  Bluetooth and Bluetooth works further [TS]

  away than one would expect I understand [TS]

  it works on Wi-Fi I don't know why it [TS]

  wasn't on Wi-Fi in this particular [TS]

  instance but if the watch said it was on [TS]

  cellular and I am inclined to believe [TS]

  the watch so in summary it sure does [TS]

  sound like that Apple is proxying iPhone [TS]

  push notifications which is pretty cool [TS]

  we are sponsored this week by a way for [TS]

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  for 20 bucks off your suitcase thank you [TS]

  so much - a way for sponsoring our show [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  moving on to ask ATP Jason Townsend [TS]

  writes in for those who run Plex on a [TS]

  Mac how do you run it with no logged in [TS]

  user and I can speak for myself and say [TS]

  I don't it is running as part of my user [TS]

  that that I'm using right now on this [TS]

  very Mac and this users pretty much [TS]

  always logged in and that's ok for me it [TS]

  may not be okay for you listener but [TS]

  it's okay for me I was hoping you had an [TS]

  answer to this that's why I put it in [TS]

  there I'm like okay she probably knows [TS]

  how to do the same thing it's running as [TS]

  actually running is my wife's user and [TS]

  she's oh he's logged in now here's the [TS]

  thing you don't have to be logged in but [TS]

  you don't have to be the frontmost user [TS]

  so if one of my kids comes up and do [TS]

  this doing their homework on their [TS]

  account on the same computer as long as [TS]

  my wife is logged in in the background [TS]

  Plex still works and runs so you don't [TS]

  have to leave their account as the [TS]

  frontmost but if there's a way to run it [TS]

  without you being logged in like cron it [TS]

  and run it as you know some other user [TS]

  with no GUI or whatever I have honestly [TS]

  I haven't even tried to do it but maybe [TS]

  have you tried anything Casey are you [TS]

  just like yeah well I guess I'm always [TS]

  logged in so I have no need for this [TS]

  exactly right I have no need for it [TS]

  yeah so I say we're not gonna say that [TS]

  it can't be done just that neither of us [TS]

  has tried to do it Marco I assume the [TS]

  same yeah I mean to me I the the idea of [TS]

  running it like with [TS]

  not having a logged in user basically [TS]

  like as root never even occurred to me [TS]

  because that's not how I would think to [TS]

  run things that are on a Mac in a server [TS]

  role like even though I know there are [TS]

  things that Mac's can do as a server [TS]

  with no user like you know the built-in [TS]

  Apache server and stuff like that many [TS]

  of the things that you would run a Mac [TS]

  server for require there to be some kind [TS]

  of application in user space running to [TS]

  serve those tasks so the idea of running [TS]

  a Mac in some kind of server role [TS]

  without a logged in user and has never [TS]

  even occurred to me to even think about [TS]

  yeah I know that was not the answer that [TS]

  you were looking for Jason and I'm sorry [TS]

  that is the answer for us and if you [TS]

  happen to know how to do this I would be [TS]

  curious to hear it's not really solving [TS]

  a need that I have but I'd be curious to [TS]

  hear so I do write in and let us know [TS]

  and Jason as well Tom Meyers asks could [TS]

  you guys help explain why a massively [TS]

  multi-core arm Mac Pro oh never mind we [TS]

  don't have to talk about this moving on [TS]

  for not picking the question I actually [TS]

  meant to earlier today and I got [TS]

  sidetracked at work and never did and [TS]

  actually to be honest I'm curious to [TS]

  hear your answer to this John so let me [TS]

  let me reread it could you guys help [TS]

  explain why I'm a swing multi-core arm [TS]

  Mac Pro wouldn't be viable a sixty-four [TS]

  core etc a 11x architecture for example [TS]

  so it would be viable but we talked [TS]

  about this on the show before there's a [TS]

  couple of aspects of this you know so we [TS]

  all know that Apple makes really fast [TS]

  system ownerships for their phones and [TS]

  they make even faster ones that they use [TS]

  in their iPads and the number of cores [TS]

  on them has been increasing from one and [TS]

  now out there up to four and the in the [TS]

  phone right is it four I forget it's [TS]

  well is it with the eight series it's [TS]

  now six six you got that you got the [TS]

  four slow ones and the two fast ones [TS]

  yeah anyway that's a lot of cores it's [TS]

  more than they had before but as we [TS]

  discussed last time this came up to make [TS]

  something that doesn't you know it's not [TS]

  like a little system on a chip that it [TS]

  takes iPad power but instead takes 150 [TS]

  watts or something like a you know a [TS]

  Xeon class CPU that's a very different [TS]

  kind of design you can't say well [TS]

  because we've made a chip for the iPad [TS]

  that's faster than all of our laptops [TS]

  right there are all faster than our [TS]

  cheap laptops we [TS]

  we've done all the work to make the Seon [TS]

  class thing and you haven't there's a [TS]

  lot more that goes into making a zeon [TS]

  class CPU than just saying oh we have a [TS]

  quorum we'll just multiply it out it's [TS]

  like a GPU where you just you know take [TS]

  the execution unit and just add more of [TS]

  them and even that gets more complicated [TS]

  there's tons of things having to do with [TS]

  IO and PCI Express Lanes and figuring [TS]

  out the whole Thunderbolt thing and the [TS]

  various chipsets not to mention all the [TS]

  the multiple cores and the cache [TS]

  coherency and the ECC Ram and all sorts [TS]

  of other things that you know it's not [TS]

  to say they couldn't do it they would [TS]

  I'm sure they would do an excellent job [TS]

  it's just to say that they by having [TS]

  lappa by having an iPad and phone ships [TS]

  they haven't done all the work so if [TS]

  they wanted to make one they could but [TS]

  it's a lot of additional work and the [TS]

  question you've always had is is it [TS]

  worthwhile for Apple to do all that [TS]

  additional work to essentially compete [TS]

  with Zeon's for a line of computers that [TS]

  they sell very very few of compared to [TS]

  anything else so maybe that's the answer [TS]

  to the viability question technically [TS]

  viable sure but Apple would have to do a [TS]

  ton of work financially viable can Apple [TS]

  justify that ton of work maybe they will [TS]

  eventually because I mean as people have [TS]

  been benchmarking the new iPhone 8 and 8 [TS]

  plus against Mac laptops like modern Mac [TS]

  laptops that you can buy right now that [TS]

  are not like last year's models and [TS]

  seeing how fast the the system-on-a-chip [TS]

  is the case for arm powered Mac laptops [TS]

  is getting stronger and stronger but the [TS]

  case for arm powered Mac Pro's I mean if [TS]

  Apple started this project four years [TS]

  ago and has a Xeon class arm CPU waiting [TS]

  in the wings for like next year's Mac [TS]

  Pro then fine but if there haven't [TS]

  started that project now you're not [TS]

  gonna see one of these for a long time [TS]

  it would cost a lot of money it would [TS]

  take a lot of time and honestly I feel [TS]

  like Intel does pretty well in the high [TS]

  end perhaps better than they do in the [TS]

  low end and the laptop space so [TS]

  best-case scenario Apple makes something [TS]

  that is some singles a double digit [TS]

  percentage faster than Intel and you [TS]

  don't really get a lot of extra points [TS]

  for doing it with less power and is the [TS]

  on class thing because you know you're [TS]

  not running them off battery like the [TS]

  whole point of these machines is they're [TS]

  plugged into the wall and it's like a [TS]

  huge amount of power going into them for [TS]

  to power everything the RAM or you know [TS]

  the GPU the separate GPU the multiple [TS]

  GPUs and stuff like that so no I think [TS]

  it's viable but it may not be [TS]

  financially the best thing for Apple to [TS]

  do and they have a lot of work to do [TS]

  I'm still super curious to see if to one [TS]

  day discover if we'll ever see a ARM [TS]

  based MacBook Pro certainly Marco has [TS]

  thoughts about MacBook Pros these days [TS]

  mm-hmm [TS]

  I didn't actually put that in as a topic [TS]

  but we can't talk about that often but [TS]

  before we leave this the I would be [TS]

  super excited to see I think everybody [TS]

  would be every computer nerd would be [TS]

  like someone wants to compete with [TS]

  high-end CPUs with Intel and that would [TS]

  be great and like I said Apple has shown [TS]

  that it's got really good talent to make [TS]

  you know it's just a question of will [TS]

  does Apple want to make a chip like this [TS]

  because if they want to I bet they can [TS]

  do a really good job and it would be [TS]

  super cool but it still strikes me as [TS]

  one of those fantasies like you know the [TS]

  pale oak are kind of fantasy of like [TS]

  apples gonna make everything its own and [TS]

  it's gonna make a special computer [TS]

  that's faster than anybody else's [TS]

  because you know make their own CPU and [TS]

  that would be super cool but I just feel [TS]

  like it's still pipe dream let's baby [TS]

  steps let's get let's get a new Mac Pro [TS]

  sometime this century and then we'll [TS]

  think about putting a 64 core ARM chip [TS]

  in it [TS]

  Richard Ernie writes in and asks a [TS]

  disturbingly reasonable question and [TS]

  that question is how many iMac pros do [TS]

  you think Marco will buy before the [TS]

  launch of the Mac Pro I have an either [TS]

  I'd also have an answer okay I feel like [TS]

  the answer should be one because you [TS]

  will presumably buy the most expensive [TS]

  and most ridiculous iMac pro you [TS]

  possibly can in the way only Marco can [TS]

  do and that should be it [TS]

  but I fear you will somehow talked [TS]

  yourself into oh this one thing I really [TS]

  don't need and or will make it worse so [TS]

  like as an example the dual graphics [TS]

  card MacBook Pros I know there won't be [TS]

  a direct equivalent of that in the iMac [TS]

  Pro but something along those lines well [TS]

  I understand that the dual graphics card [TS]

  Macca pros are hypothetically better but [TS]

  they're better in ways that don't matter [TS]

  to me so I won't get the maxed out top [TS]

  line MacBook Pro instead I'll get a [TS]

  different MacBook Pro so that is the one [TS]

  I don't know like wild card if you [TS]

  somehow convince yourself that oh maybe [TS]

  I don't need the cranked to 11 version [TS]

  of the iMac Pro then I could see you in [TS]

  for two because the first one will be [TS]

  the the oh I don't need everything and [TS]

  then you'll decide oh that was a [TS]

  terrible mistake I need everything and [TS]

  then you'll get the one you should've [TS]

  gotten in the first place [TS]

  John so you're you're overthinking it [TS]

  but also under thinking it my answer so [TS]

  he's overthinking it because he's got [TS]

  his answer of one but then he's hedging [TS]

  and what about two you're also under [TS]

  thing you're forgetting a very important [TS]

  factor when I read this question I had [TS]

  an immediate answer and the answer is he [TS]

  will buy two before the launch of the [TS]

  macro why will he buy two because he'll [TS]

  get one because he's impatient and he'll [TS]

  buy one for TIF goodbye to iMac pros [TS]

  before the Mac Pro you're right that is [TS]

  the answer so Marco not that not that it [TS]

  matters because you're gonna be wrong [TS]

  but what do you think the answer is I [TS]

  think the answer is most likely to be [TS]

  one but might be zero [TS]

  oh I call foul right now somebody marked [TS]

  this date down I said most likely one [TS]

  explained okay so in John way I'll tell [TS]

  you that you're both right and wrong and [TS]

  John is both wrong and right [TS]

  so the generous plan that would happy [TS]

  buying one is I buy one for myself when [TS]

  the Mac Pro comes out I give it to TIFF [TS]

  and I get myself a Mac Pro the case for [TS]

  maybe being 0 it basically leads into [TS]

  the first topic that we have on this [TS]

  list which is labeled in the chat why is [TS]

  Marco on his MacBook Pro and the reason [TS]

  why is because my iMac has some issues [TS]

  that I wanted to get repaired in the 8 [TS]

  days left in the warranty I mean spiders [TS]

  good call you know one of those is that [TS]

  the screen has image retention that that [TS]

  is probably the biggest issue the issue [TS]

  that like for long term value and the [TS]

  ability to sell it for a reasonable [TS]

  price when I'm done with it [TS]

  I want to get that fixed [TS]

  the screen has a screen only issue I am [TS]

  currently without my main desktop [TS]

  computer for probably a week maybe a [TS]

  little bit less I'm lucky and that is [TS]

  horrible like it's incredibly disruptive [TS]

  so I have let me show you my desktop [TS]

  setup here I pasted the link in the chat [TS]

  so the picture I've just shown you is my [TS]

  is what I am it's like the old times you [TS]

  need some soda can yeah I'm currently [TS]

  very much not satisfied with owning an [TS]

  iMac as my primary computer because as [TS]

  much as I miss the crap out of it I [TS]

  really wish it was separate from the [TS]

  screen because then if something went [TS]

  wrong with the screen I could just get [TS]

  the screen fixed if something went wrong [TS]

  with the Mac Pro I could plug in a [TS]

  laptop to the screen on my desk and use [TS]

  that as a stand-in desktop all I got the [TS]

  desktop serviced but you're not enough [TS]

  of a hardware hoarder to have extra [TS]

  screens around so say it was separating [TS]

  you just had to get the screen repaired [TS]

  you'd have a headless computer with no [TS]

  screen and you still have to use your [TS]

  laptop because what are you gonna hook [TS]

  up the body of your computer to well I [TS]

  could get another screen like I could I [TS]

  could please like overnight another [TS]

  screen I forgot it but buying solves [TS]

  everything buying solver an ice cream [TS]

  get the other one fixed and that's [TS]

  harder to do when it's time act like I'm [TS]

  not gonna buy a whole new iMac to use [TS]

  for a week and then return it or sell it [TS]

  but you but you'd buy a new 5k monitor [TS]

  four thousand bucks no problem [TS]

  maybe honestly if I'm losing a week of [TS]

  productivity here using my laptop as the [TS]

  as my only computer it's it and like [TS]

  trying to do iOS development on this [TS]

  it's crazy [TS]

  whoa you're not you're not losing a week [TS]

  you're not losing a week you are you are [TS]

  perfectly capable of being productive [TS]

  you're just you're too fussy to want to [TS]

  do no I am doing it like I am powering [TS]

  through and doing it but it's exactly [TS]

  and it's it's it's at substantial [TS]

  reduction of productivity to have I to [TS]

  lose you know eight inches of screen [TS]

  space for a while so it's not great at [TS]

  times like this I really make a mental [TS]

  note to say just buy the desktop next [TS]

  time like just like just buy the Mac Pro [TS]

  next time so I really [TS]

  like the the idea of spending a lot of [TS]

  money on an iMac Pro that might [TS]

  potentially still have that you know [TS]

  that would still have this limitation of [TS]

  like if anything goes wrong with it I [TS]

  lose everything for the time it takes to [TS]

  get a service also you know the sign Mac [TS]

  is only three years old - eight days and [TS]

  it already has like a few little [TS]

  annoying things about it and I can [TS]

  already see like I might not want to use [TS]

  this after you know after the Mac Pro [TS]

  comes out you know and I'm assuming for [TS]

  this discussion that the Mac Pro scrum [TS]

  is probably coming out next summer and [TS]

  and so if the Mac Pro comes out way [TS]

  later than that like if it ends up being [TS]

  2019 or next winter or like you know [TS]

  this might change things but I might [TS]

  actually just get zero iMac pros because [TS]

  the iMac Pro concerns me in the sense [TS]

  that it's really hard to get an iMac to [TS]

  function well and be useful for 10 years [TS]

  John's Mac Pro is actually doing that [TS]

  and you're gonna pay the price of John's [TS]

  Mac Pro for an iMac Pro you're gonna pay [TS]

  the the zeon tax you're gonna pay the [TS]

  pro tax you're gonna you were gonna pay [TS]

  like what did they say the base price [TS]

  was five thousand five thousand but you [TS]

  forget how cheap this was even [TS]

  accounting for inflation ten years ago [TS]

  this is only like 20-some twenty-two [TS]

  twenty three hundred dollars this was [TS]

  back when the Mac pros were incredibly [TS]

  cheap for what you got yeah exactly yeah [TS]

  even with inflation your coming out I [TS]

  think pretty far ahead with that and so [TS]

  the Mac Pro to me like you do pay a lot [TS]

  for it but they last pretty much [TS]

  indefinitely like they like the it will [TS]

  last as long as you need them to last [TS]

  and if something does go wrong with them [TS]

  you have a much better chance of being [TS]

  able to practically and economically [TS]

  service it yourself down the road when [TS]

  it's out of warranty etc and so the [TS]

  lifespan of a Mac Pro tends to be longer [TS]

  than the lifespan if not and I'm not I'm [TS]

  not considering the cylinder ones I'm [TS]

  what I'm saying yeah that's what I'm [TS]

  saying you're thinking of the old Mac [TS]

  Pros that's like that's last that's last [TS]

  decade thinking like okay so that was [TS]

  the case but the most recent Mac Pro [TS]

  Apple is made and none of those things [TS]

  are true about it was unreliable from [TS]

  the start it wasn't easy to repair [TS]

  yourself and people aren't using them [TS]

  well for 10 years so I think you kind of [TS]

  have to take a wait-and-see [TS]

  that maybe you won't have a choice of [TS]

  something that is big reliable easy to [TS]

  repair right maybe like maybe that won't [TS]

  be one of your options your options said [TS]

  will be you know a faster [TS]

  hopefully quieter and more powerful [TS]

  separate screen thing but that it's just [TS]

  unreliable as you know as any of the [TS]

  more recent Apple hardware is and just [TS]

  as weird and flaky and the first [TS]

  generation has strange problems and all [TS]

  that stuff I'm not trying to be [TS]

  pessimistic but like we're all we're all [TS]

  kind of thinking like oh the new Mac [TS]

  Pro's will be like the old ones in the [TS]

  cylinder was an aberration I think [TS]

  that's still an open question yeah [TS]

  you're totally right it is and and you [TS]

  know I think the cylinder has taught [TS]

  them some lessons I would not expect a [TS]

  return to a giant tower but I would [TS]

  accept I would hope that it's maybe kind [TS]

  of something in the middle there like [TS]

  something between a shield of cylinder [TS]

  that you can do nothing to and some kind [TS]

  of interchangeable parts you know thing [TS]

  maybe whether it's a tower or not you [TS]

  know perhaps a magnesium cube yeah right [TS]

  and so I not sure I want to commit to [TS]

  and I'm right now if the Mac Pro was [TS]

  totally dead and they said you know okay [TS]

  we're launching the iMac Pro the Mac Pro [TS]

  is is discontinued we're never gonna [TS]

  make one again we're just doing the Mac [TS]

  Pro then this decision was easy of [TS]

  course I would buy one but because there [TS]

  is a Mac Pro allegedly coming I want to [TS]

  wait to see what that is first before I [TS]

  decide because if it's closer to what I [TS]

  want in having things separate and you [TS]

  know maybe having even crazier [TS]

  you know CPU options and stuff like that [TS]

  who knows if it's more what I want I [TS]

  would choose that the other thing I'm [TS]

  worried about with the iMac Pro is [TS]

  thermals this is a completely new [TS]

  thermal design that basically they are [TS]

  they are wedging much much higher hotter [TS]

  higher wattage hotter running parts [TS]

  inside of an enclosure that they didn't [TS]

  design the size for like they took the [TS]

  size of the other iMac and it seemed [TS]

  that they basically had as a design goal [TS]

  fit these higher-end hotter parts inside [TS]

  of this case that we designed for this [TS]

  other computer and while they seem to [TS]

  have done a lot of work about the [TS]

  internal design of it and dealing with [TS]

  the internal arrangement to those [TS]

  thermals and everything the fact that [TS]

  they didn't design the X [TS]

  criminal case for it that they basically [TS]

  said you know wedge this into that that [TS]

  well it's probably gonna have [TS]

  limitations and side effects that I [TS]

  don't like so maybe things were gonna [TS]

  overheat and and you know be bad over [TS]

  time that's another problem [TS]

  I have with my iMac is that the GPU fan [TS]

  is now or the GPU now runs too hot and [TS]

  the fan goes up constantly and it's [TS]

  audible of my recordings which is the [TS]

  most one of the reasons I've finally got [TS]

  it fixed because I can't have that and [TS]

  you know maybe that's because these [TS]

  parts in that in that case like I got [TS]

  top-of-the-line parts when it was out so [TS]

  these are you know running pretty hot [TS]

  over three years and eventually that [TS]

  starts to have problems with cooling I [TS]

  fear whether the iMac pro will have [TS]

  those problems or not because you're [TS]

  taking these hot parts and putting them [TS]

  into a case that is designed to be thin [TS]

  for some reason even though nobody cares [TS]

  about how thick their desktop display is [TS]

  on the back but it's designed to be thin [TS]

  rather than being designed to hold Pro [TS]

  components the Mac Pro towers on the [TS]

  other hand with the exception of the [TS]

  cylinder of course although even that [TS]

  the cylinder did have a really clever [TS]

  cooling design that was really good as [TS]

  long as you didn't use the GPUs but the [TS]

  the Mac Pro towers were always like [TS]

  we're gonna design a complete enclosure [TS]

  a complete shape around being able to [TS]

  hold and cool the entire range of [TS]

  high-end pro parts that we're gonna sell [TS]

  for this thing so I think it was always [TS]

  more likely that there would be fewer [TS]

  problems with thermals and things like [TS]

  that with the Mac Pro towers then with [TS]

  the IMAX so I'm again like with the iMac [TS]

  Pro like I we still don't know how loud [TS]

  is it going to be like are the fans [TS]

  gonna spin up constantly and be audible [TS]

  or not because the Mac pros are the same [TS]

  noise level regardless of what they're [TS]

  doing pretty much so like a Mac Pro you [TS]

  know you don't really hear it and iMac [TS]

  you hear it if you push it and that's [TS]

  kind of ungraceful and I kind of suggest [TS]

  thermals that don't have a lot of [TS]

  headroom and everything else now there [TS]

  was talk there was a weird Geekbench [TS]

  result that may or may not be real we [TS]

  don't really know people are believing [TS]

  that it might be real that might be the [TS]

  new iMac pro CPUs and they were they [TS]

  were reporting that they were basically [TS]

  an altar [TS]

  version of the workstation class like [TS]

  those eons typically the the highest [TS]

  performance eons for desktops they end [TS]

  in W for workstation at the end of their [TS]

  model number and this usually means the [TS]

  absolute highest clock speed for that [TS]

  core account that is available because [TS]

  it's going to burn lots of power so it's [TS]

  not quite great for like big server [TS]

  racks but it's gonna burn lots of power [TS]

  but it's gonna be really really fast for [TS]

  a desktop and it's gonna need a huge fan [TS]

  so those parts usually end in W the ones [TS]

  and Geekbench ended in W B or just be I [TS]

  think anyway and they seem to be running [TS]

  at lower clock speeds than what we did [TS]

  what we'd expect still good still really [TS]

  fast but it looks like they might be [TS]

  having to use lower wattage chips in [TS]

  these iMacs then what a full xeon [TS]

  workstation chip would be in like a [TS]

  tower and that's most likely for thermal [TS]

  roots but those are 140 watt chips [TS]

  hundred and 50 watt chips usually an [TS]

  iMac chassis is usually designed to hold [TS]

  like I think like a 60 or 80 watt chip [TS]

  and yet again they have redesigned the [TS]

  internals of this to be to offer more [TS]

  cooling to fit higher wattage parts but [TS]

  they also needs to leave room for the [TS]

  GPU and so like there's basically I we [TS]

  still don't know what the trade-offs are [TS]

  to get workstation grade components into [TS]

  an iMac pro into the same case size and [TS]

  I'm guessing the trade-offs are going to [TS]

  be related to fan noise under load and a [TS]

  possible heat sealing that might limit [TS]

  the range of performance they can get [TS]

  out of those processors whereas the [TS]

  full-blown Mac Pro that I hope will come [TS]

  out sometime next year [TS]

  that shouldn't have those limitations [TS]

  that should be able to use full wattage [TS]

  parts that should have a cooling system [TS]

  that has lots of headroom and that can [TS]

  cool quietly under load I don't know if [TS]

  it will but it should and because the [TS]

  previous ones did all of them even [TS]

  though 2013 had that so I hope the Mac [TS]

  Pro offers those things and if it does [TS]

  that's the computer I want to buy not [TS]

  the iMac Pro but because neither of [TS]

  these computers are out yet there's [TS]

  probably gonna be other factors that go [TS]

  into it so if possible I will I hope [TS]

  that my imac coming back from repair who [TS]

  can last me until the Mac Pro comes out [TS]

  so I can then decide then [TS]

  there's no way you will see that [TS]

  hot-looking new iMac Pro and say no [TS]

  thank you all wait respond sir this week [TS]

  by hover go to hover comm slash ATP to [TS]

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  speaking of industrial design and [TS]

  cooling in one of the many interviews [TS]

  and books that never seems to happen if [TS]

  I could get like Johnny I've and all [TS]

  John Rubinstein and all the people [TS]

  together and ask them about like past [TS]

  apples lines I would love to know what [TS]

  what changed between like the the [TS]

  you know nowadays and back one Apple [TS]

  maid then you know the cheese grater [TS]

  because if you think about the cheese [TS]

  beer and this is what I always hope that [TS]

  the the new Mac Pro design will be but [TS]

  who knows what it'll actually be the [TS]

  cheese grater as you noted and as they [TS]

  as Johnny Ivan his white world said I [TS]

  think in the introduction for the [TS]

  original cheese where that you know the [TS]

  power mac g5 the design of it was not so [TS]

  much like all the modern Johnny I've [TS]

  they're not just running out for the [TS]

  modern Apple designs like bye-bye Johnny [TS]

  F design team where it's like we've [TS]

  wanted to boil it down to its essence [TS]

  and find you know uncomplicated simple [TS]

  direct blah blah blah all the things [TS]

  they do for things that are like phones [TS]

  or portable things where they don't want [TS]

  a lot of geegaws hanging off it whereas [TS]

  the cheese grater was we wanted to be [TS]

  honest about the fact that the main job [TS]

  of this thing is to to be a heat [TS]

  exchanger like it was modeled off of [TS]

  heat exchangers or air exchangers like [TS]

  that are up in rooms that suck in air [TS]

  and one with temperature on one side and [TS]

  ejected out the other side a different [TS]

  temperature I think somebody said like [TS]

  that the actual cheese grater was [TS]

  modeled off a heat exchanger right and [TS]

  so it wasn't designed to be the most [TS]

  sort of well you know it was designed to [TS]

  be true to its purpose but its purpose [TS]

  wasn't to be a beautiful object right [TS]

  its purpose wasn't to be portable and [TS]

  uncomplicated and you know simple and [TS]

  obvious its purpose was to exchange heat [TS]

  like that was the purpose and so it was [TS]

  designed with that as a goal and it [TS]

  seems like so many things that Apple [TS]

  makes nowadays are designed with a with [TS]

  a simplicity of form as a goal which is [TS]

  a fine goal especially for portable [TS]

  things but as you said nobody really [TS]

  cares that much about the simplicity of [TS]

  form like if a more honest I Mac Pro on [TS]

  the back of it would have looked like [TS]

  the back of a transformer like it would [TS]

  look like a giant heatsink it would have [TS]

  had bulges and flares and fins or what [TS]

  it looked like the underside of like a [TS]

  Ferrari like all sorts of ground effects [TS]

  and like a diffuser like it would say [TS]

  the back of this computer is all about [TS]

  ejecting heat because honestly speaking [TS]

  what is the purpose of this computer [TS]

  it's the iMac [TS]

  it's not the iMac that's simple and [TS]

  elegant just looks like a screen and you [TS]

  say where is the computer no this is the [TS]

  iMac Pro its job is to be the fastest [TS]

  possible all-in-one computer that human [TS]

  beings can make and the main problem of [TS]

  a fast all-in-one computer is getting [TS]

  rid of the damn heat so the back of it [TS]

  looks crazy and just as big and chunky [TS]

  and as you know coming out the wazoo and [TS]

  that's what the cheese grater is it was [TS]

  a big giant thing cold air and front hot [TS]

  air out back gigantic fans nine fans [TS]

  Steve Jobs was raving or however many [TS]

  the original on hand look at all these [TS]

  fans they're all computer-controlled to [TS]

  be just the right amount of cooling at [TS]

  the right so then I'll run full blast [TS]

  all the time you know there is an [TS]

  elegance to it but it is so [TS]

  purpose-built to let you house all that [TS]

  hot stuff and get it cooled so I hope [TS]

  the Mac Pro is not like the trash camera [TS]

  it's like what is the essence or a form [TS]

  of the Mac probably like I want it to be [TS]

  functional and the function is heat [TS]

  exchange and things whose function is [TS]

  heat exchange don't look like lozenges [TS]

  bars of soap or simple elegant design I [TS]

  mean in many respects the chimney Mac [TS]

  Pro the trashcan Mac Pro does have a [TS]

  purity of purpose cold air and bottom [TS]

  hot air out top just like the g4 cube [TS]

  right but it was not designed to be like [TS]

  how much heat can we get rid of because [TS]

  they just had you know the two GPUs [TS]

  there in the CPU and they couldn't even [TS]

  cool them well enough like so it was a [TS]

  clever design for its size but it was [TS]

  very very small if you want to build [TS]

  something with a massive heat exchange [TS]

  and capacity you make it bigger you want [TS]

  to have excess capacity not be right on [TS]

  the borderline [TS]

  so anyway getting back to what I said I [TS]

  would ask them like it's like the same [TS]

  people who were there Johnny I've made [TS]

  the cheese grater but now he's making [TS]

  all these beautiful featureless things [TS]

  with no ports on them [TS]

  what changed surely it wasn't Steve Jobs [TS]

  saying please make me something that [TS]

  looks like the underside of a Ferrari [TS]

  right so someone there was like okay was [TS]

  like in the design brief the main job of [TS]

  the thing that you are making is to be [TS]

  an efficient heat exchanger do that in [TS]

  the most elegant way that you can and I [TS]

  don't imagine Steve Jobs was forcing [TS]

  Johnny I have to do that Steve Jobs [TS]

  probably wanted it to be like the [TS]

  trashcan like he doesn't like all the [TS]

  big you know bins and and you know holes [TS]

  all over the front and back and giant [TS]

  fans and stuff he just accepts that as a [TS]

  cost to do [TS]

  business but they did the best job they [TS]

  could with it but it's like the same [TS]

  people are there but the philosophy has [TS]

  changed and Apple has stopped making [TS]

  computers like that whose purpose is not [TS]

  to be simple obvious white Apple pencil [TS]

  with no things on it and just this pew [TS]

  who you know beautiful perfect form so [TS]

  anyway when Johnny comes on the show ask [TS]

  him about it and see like has he changed [TS]

  his mind has his philosophy evolved was [TS]

  there someone forcing him to make those [TS]

  older computers the way they were was [TS]

  someone forcing him to put all those [TS]

  ports on the side of his laptops like I [TS]

  don't know so many questions Johnny come [TS]

  on the show will talk yeah that's gonna [TS]

  have it no I mean I totally agree and I [TS]

  wish Apple you know like you know Apple [TS]

  is you know famously you know talked [TS]

  about courage to remove the headphone [TS]

  jack and you know that an Apple is a [TS]

  very considered a very bold company for [TS]

  that the courageous designs they make [TS]

  what they lack it seems like in the in [TS]

  the in the hardware designs of the [TS]

  computers is not courage but confidence [TS]

  they need the confidence to know that [TS]

  they can make something that sacrifices [TS]

  visual symmetry for functionality that [TS]

  doesn't take courage it takes confidence [TS]

  because you have to be able to to know [TS]

  in your head that even if the press says [TS]

  oh you know it got thicker or wow that [TS]

  iMac it looks pretty thick from the back [TS]

  or whatever like Apple has to be [TS]

  confident enough to be able to say we we [TS]

  believe in our design because it is [TS]

  better that way even though you're [TS]

  saying it doesn't look as good or [TS]

  whatever we know that it works better [TS]

  and it seems like they don't have that [TS]

  confidence anymore or it's not being you [TS]

  know properly enforced somewhere on the [TS]

  way or something because a great [TS]

  computer nothing about its physical form [TS]

  should unnecessarily detract from how [TS]

  great of a computer it can be and there [TS]

  are certain models in the lineup where [TS]

  you'd make a different choice you know [TS]

  so things like the 12-inch MacBook where [TS]

  the whole role of this computer is what [TS]

  is the absolute smallest thinnest [TS]

  lightest computer we can make and have [TS]

  it still be remotely usable so then you [TS]

  make different trade-offs [TS]

  but as you go up the line as you get [TS]

  more and more to the larger and higher [TS]

  end and pro machines and especially once [TS]

  you get into things like desktops which [TS]

  are kind of pro by nature and have very [TS]

  different you know physical demands [TS]

  around them in very different usage [TS]

  around them the decision always has to [TS]

  be made the other way of yeah you know [TS]

  what you can make it beautiful have the [TS]

  confidence to know that you could make a [TS]

  beautiful design while still letting it [TS]

  function well as the computer that it [TS]

  has to be and it seems like Apple [TS]

  doesn't have that confidence anymore or [TS]

  at least or they don't have that ability [TS]

  anymore which is even more concerning I [TS]

  understand your point I deeply disagree [TS]

  and I think they're showing external [TS]

  confidence by doing things like going [TS]

  all-in on USB see right because USB see [TS]

  was not it did not have a terribly great [TS]

  story when the MacBook and the MacBook [TS]

  Pros went all-in on USB see and it's [TS]

  gotten better but as you recently wrote [TS]

  about the story isn't that great now I [TS]

  know that's exactly I was gonna say it's [TS]

  gotten better but without question there [TS]

  is a long way to go and I thought your [TS]

  posts touched on that really well or I [TS]

  shouldn't say touched on it handled it [TS]

  really well so I think they're showing [TS]

  external confidence but with a few [TS]

  tweaks I think what I would say is it's [TS]

  the internal confidence that they lack [TS]

  it's the internal confidence for some [TS]

  designer or whomever to go to Johnny and [TS]

  say you know what maybe we should make [TS]

  this a little thicker or you know what [TS]

  and maybe more than one port on the [TS]

  MacBook adorable would be useful or you [TS]

  know what maybe MagSafe wasn't so bad [TS]

  and I think the problem is internal [TS]

  courage to stand up to whoever's calling [TS]

  the shots on why it is these things are [TS]

  as it appears to us very crippled like [TS]

  they're great machines I love my macbook [TS]

  adorable I really do but damned if it [TS]

  wouldn't be great if I had one more port [TS]

  on it you know or damned if it wouldn't [TS]

  be great if I had MagSafe on it cuz just [TS]

  yesterday I think it was I ripped it off [TS]

  my nightstand it was charging on my god [TS]

  I caught the cable with my foot and it [TS]

  came flying off my nightstand it's fine [TS]

  thankfully [TS]

  but did it land in a pool of water and [TS]

  no it did not land in a pool of water [TS]

  thank goodness the water beds are not [TS]

  trendy so we were safe there God can you [TS]

  imagine me with a water bed that'd be [TS]

  terrible they still have their fans in [TS]

  any case the point I'm driving at is I [TS]

  think it's the internal confidence it's [TS]

  a problem that nobody's standing up to [TS]

  Johnny or the the mythical version of [TS]

  Johnny who know you even know it's [TS]

  really Johnny anymore but the mythical [TS]

  Johnny who is saying no this MacBook [TS]

  adorable will have only one port no [TS]

  these butterfly switches are the only [TS]

  way to go you know whoever is making [TS]

  those decisions be that an individual or [TS]

  or a committee I think it's that lack of [TS]

  internal confidence to say to them no [TS]

  this isn't right [TS]

  this isn't good enough they we do need [TS]

  one more port on the adorable we do need [TS]

  better keyboard switches or whatever the [TS]

  case may be you know I think that's [TS]

  where it's lacking like I said it's like [TS]

  it's like what is the design brief what [TS]

  is the goal here and I think you know [TS]

  and the Philon I and philosophy and the [TS]

  goal for a lot of portal devices is very [TS]

  often don't have so much crap on it [TS]

  don't have a million buttons don't have [TS]

  a million ports it's easier to [TS]

  waterproof it's simpler it should look [TS]

  simple and obvious having the front be [TS]

  all screen is a natural evolution of not [TS]

  having a hardware keyboard one I just [TS]

  have a screen and what a single button [TS]

  on the front leave that kind of element [TS]

  bill simplicity is very appropriate for [TS]

  a certain class of devices that Apple [TS]

  happens to sell love because you don't [TS]

  want a phone with the million things [TS]

  sticking out of it for most consumers [TS]

  it's supposed to be a thing that fits in [TS]

  your pocket and even laptops you can see [TS]

  an argument for their laptop they're [TS]

  simpler when there's less stuff when [TS]

  there's fewer moving parts fewer seems [TS]

  like you know just compare the original [TS]

  aluminum you know PowerBook g4 to [TS]

  occurring unibody one the design goals [TS]

  and evolution of that trying to say [TS]

  simplify simplify simplify a better [TS]

  portable computer because it flexes less [TS]

  because it's you know it has fewer seams [TS]

  it has fewer things to go wrong on it [TS]

  even the hinge is more robust and [TS]

  everything about it is simpler and then [TS]

  that extending to start taking ports off [TS]

  now you start to get into you know I'm [TS]

  not quite sure about that but you can [TS]

  see kind of an argument for the [TS]

  simplicity but where this goes awry is [TS]

  on things like the iMac Pro it's [TS]

  certainly the Mac [TS]

  the story has to be different your goal [TS]

  has to be different you can't take that [TS]

  same design philosophy that works for [TS]

  phones and tablets and possibly also [TS]

  laptops especially the small ones and [TS]

  say this same design philosophy should [TS]

  apply to our professional modular [TS]

  computer because that's not what it's [TS]

  supposed to do as Marco said [TS]

  professionals don't care what the hell [TS]

  the back of their desk under desk [TS]

  mounted computer does like it is [TS]

  supposed to fulfill a job and its job is [TS]

  to be really fast and capable and being [TS]

  really fast and capable means ejecting [TS]

  heat and having a lot of room inside and [TS]

  being reliable and stuff and if that's [TS]

  your goal like these are the most [TS]

  important things it's got to be super [TS]

  reliable and just chunky and very [TS]

  powerful and like the maximum amount of [TS]

  power and flexibility you design a [TS]

  different thing I started thinking of [TS]

  things like power tools or off-road [TS]

  vehicles not like cars that you buy but [TS]

  like actual like you know getting around [TS]

  on the farm or going through the jungle [TS]

  or whatever those things they can be [TS]

  elegant and have nice designs but they [TS]

  have a job to do and their design is [TS]

  entirely focused around that job no one [TS]

  is trying to say can we get huge ground [TS]

  clearance and offer a vehicle but not [TS]

  have like a big gap between the wheels [TS]

  and the wheel well I can cover that over [TS]

  with something I could we could make it [TS]

  so that like that we have like a skirt [TS]

  that when the wheels compressed the [TS]

  skirt moves up so it looks more elegant [TS]

  like what are you even doing are you [TS]

  trying to make this car look like a [TS]

  low-slung you know Tesla like the whole [TS]

  point is supposed to go offer us like [TS]

  yeah but it's so ugly when you can see [TS]

  all the suspension bits and you can see [TS]

  all this air under the car I don't that [TS]

  skirt idea we can make the skirt work [TS]

  it's like no don't try to make the skirt [TS]

  work like just put huge amounts of [TS]

  travel and big exposed springs and [TS]

  shocks and don't worry about the skirt [TS]

  don't worry about like the big gap [TS]

  that's that's what it's supposed to do [TS]

  just make the best off-road vehicle you [TS]

  can make that's what I want them to do [TS]

  with the Mac Pro and the iMac it's like [TS]

  it has to be just as slim as the regular [TS]

  iMac why why would you make it just as [TS]

  slim as the regular yeah [TS]

  maybe you can we're also smart with our [TS]

  cooling worth like you already have the [TS]

  iMac the iMac is oh I don't even know [TS]

  where the computer is it's so skinny and [TS]

  we got rid of the the optical drives [TS]

  whoo you make it beer a thinner in the [TS]

  edge it looks beautifully and that does [TS]

  and I think an all-in-one computer that [TS]

  is very thin and elegant and has [TS]

  beautiful screen is a product they [TS]

  should make and they do it's a 5k iMac [TS]

  it's great when they go to make the iPad [TS]

  pro wise like design brief hasn't [TS]

  changed yeah it's supposed to be like [TS]

  the fastest computer you could buy [TS]

  especially remember as I pointed out [TS]

  before they weren't gonna make the Mac [TS]

  Pro the iMac pro was gonna be their [TS]

  top-of-the-line and still they said it's [TS]

  got to fit in the same case and that [TS]

  that's what's wrong like they have the [TS]

  wrong goal even before they begin [TS]

  executing and I don't I don't know where [TS]

  that comes from I don't know why that [TS]

  philosophy is extended maybe it's they [TS]

  just think all technology should be like [TS]

  that but they didn't always think like [TS]

  this and the cheese grater Mac Pro is [TS]

  the the perfect proof Johnny I've made [TS]

  that computer and talked about it his [TS]

  team made that thing and it is perhaps [TS]

  the most brutally utilitarian thing that [TS]

  Apple has ever made it's a big silver [TS]

  heat exchanger with freaking handles on [TS]

  it with a huge amount of space in it [TS]

  that's what I want [TS]

  come on I mean that that exact design [TS]

  but I want that philosophy executed well [TS]

  yeah and the thing is like that like [TS]

  that giant metal tower full of fans and [TS]

  everything and ports in the back and [TS]

  huge air holes in the front and back [TS]

  that thing is beautiful that is the [TS]

  nicest PC tower ever I've ever seen bar [TS]

  none it's not even close and for people [TS]

  who love computers and who need high-end [TS]

  pro computers that is beautiful you [TS]

  don't have to make it ugly people who [TS]

  look at that and say that's ugly [TS]

  are people who hate computers it seems [TS]

  like the people who were responsible for [TS]

  designing computers at Apple hate [TS]

  computers and I don't say this lightly [TS]

  what I mean to say here is literally [TS]

  that it seems like the computers at [TS]

  Apple are designed with the goal of [TS]

  hiding and getting rid of as much of the [TS]

  computer as possible and there is a [TS]

  place for that again there's a place for [TS]

  that in like the ultra-thin unlight the [TS]

  MacBook you know 12-inch and everything [TS]

  and even maybe the heirs although we're [TS]

  going backwards in that direction as [TS]

  well in the air range but at the [TS]

  high-end you are selling to people who [TS]

  need computers and in many cases who [TS]

  love computers and those people don't [TS]

  want you to hide everything away [TS]

  especially when it comes at the cost of [TS]

  practicality and functionality those [TS]

  people are happy to see the computer we [TS]

  are happy to have ports and air holes [TS]

  and a little bit more thickness in order [TS]

  to get like a better keyboard or better [TS]

  battery life or something else like that [TS]

  market isn't trying to get rid of the [TS]

  computer they're buying a computer they [TS]

  like computers and the pros want to see [TS]

  like the pros want a pro piece of gear [TS]

  the people who buy the giant off-road [TS]

  vehicles are not looking at them and [TS]

  saying man this thing's so ugly it's a [TS]

  shame no one can make these things [TS]

  prettier no they love the way they look [TS]

  they buy them because of the way they [TS]

  look partially and their functionality [TS]

  as well some people just for the looks [TS]

  but you know like so to make up to make [TS]

  a hunk and MacPro tower that's full of [TS]

  high high powered the the best [TS]

  components they can make you know cooled [TS]

  with giant slow fan so they can be [TS]

  really efficient and really quiet even [TS]

  under a load that is beautiful and that [TS]

  is good design for a high end pro [TS]

  computer what they seem to be doing now [TS]

  instead is applying the wrong design [TS]

  principles to it like you know what John [TS]

  said like what these tools are here to [TS]

  do they're applying the same principles [TS]

  as they're applying to the ultra thin 12 [TS]

  inch ultra portable that's not good [TS]

  design design is how it works a famous [TS]

  guy said that once like design is taking [TS]

  the requirements that that people have [TS]

  who were going to use this thing and [TS]

  making something that works well with [TS]

  those requirements and also hopefully [TS]

  looks decent in the process but its [TS]

  design is about those requirements and [TS]

  and how you literally you know design in [TS]

  the the work to accommodate those so [TS]

  what they're doing when they make like a [TS]

  pro computer that has massive practical [TS]

  problems when used professionally or [TS]

  when used by anybody that's actually bad [TS]

  design [TS]

  no matter how it looks and so they [TS]

  really need I think to shift this [TS]

  thinking and I hope they have with the [TS]

  Mac Pro they really need to shift this [TS]

  thinking back into it is okay to make a [TS]

  computer that looks like a computer [TS]

  there is nothing wrong with having a [TS]

  high-end Pro desktop that's probably [TS]

  gonna cost like eight thousand dollars [TS]

  to have that be a little bit bulky and [TS]

  to have that you know go into your desk [TS]

  and to have that look like a square with [TS]

  ports in the back and fans in the back [TS]

  like that's fine that's actually what [TS]

  people want and to those people if that [TS]

  is designed well it will be beautiful no [TS]

  matter how it looks they could have a [TS]

  design like a Star Trek spaceship like [TS]

  it can be cool but it has to be [TS]

  fulfilling his job and his job is to [TS]

  eject heed and hold lots of things and [TS]

  be super fast and it's just you end up [TS]

  with the different shape you end up with [TS]

  the different everything about it [TS]

  there's lots of options available lots [TS]

  of things I'm imagining where it's [TS]

  fuzzier I think and I was thinking about [TS]

  this when I was sitting looking at the [TS]

  bunch of laptops around the table at [TS]

  work a lot of people work now have the [TS]

  same thing I have a 2017 MacBook Pro [TS]

  with its four little USB see slash [TS]

  Thunderbolt three ports all around the [TS]

  sides of it but then other people still [TS]

  have the 2015 ones like an earlier right [TS]

  and honestly when they're all sitting [TS]

  around the table like that other than [TS]

  the fact that the new ones are Space [TS]

  Gray for the most part they don't look [TS]

  that different like the you can tell [TS]

  that the new ones are thinner and the [TS]

  screens are a nicer right but the [TS]

  elements don't look that bad but I look [TS]

  at the sides of the other ones and like [TS]

  they don't look that much thicker but [TS]

  then I see SD card HDMI port MagSafe USB [TS]

  a like and I and I think again we talked [TS]

  about this when they did the am a [TS]

  crowned table and I was like but they [TS]

  said didn't they say something about [TS]

  maybe they'll be reconsidering their [TS]

  choices with the MacBook Pros and coming [TS]

  out with new ones that appeal to people [TS]

  more and I kept thinking like that maybe [TS]

  in the future they would reconsider [TS]

  their decisions and like put an SD card [TS]

  slot on it or like just make different [TS]

  decisions about ports and stuff like [TS]

  that sort of [TS]

  back pedal on the you know relentless [TS]

  simplification on their biggest laptop [TS]

  I'm not expecting them to make a [TS]

  keyboard that's not the same size as the [TS]

  small ones you know I'm not going crazy [TS]

  yeah but I'm just saying like the the [TS]

  utility of like I think a lot of people [TS]

  are jealous at work of the people come [TS]

  in with the old laptops and just plug [TS]

  their thing right into the projector [TS]

  with no dongles right or that you know [TS]

  Matt you know MagSafe of ripping the [TS]

  thing in and out of they get up from [TS]

  their desks and then maybe they're also [TS]

  jealous of me with my single wire [TS]

  connecting with all the other stuff so [TS]

  this advantages Thunderball as well but [TS]

  like I think of it this way if they came [TS]

  out with the new MacBook Pro that had an [TS]

  SD card in HDMI on it a lot of people [TS]

  would love it and I'm trying to think [TS]

  who would hate it the people like I [TS]

  don't want that additional complexity I [TS]

  never use HDMI would they hate it would [TS]

  they just be like oh whatever I don't [TS]

  care I don't use those ports like who [TS]

  would really hate it other than saying [TS]

  you've just mucked up my perfect clean [TS]

  symmetrical design but I don't think [TS]

  people who buy them care that much about [TS]

  it and the people who would love it boy [TS]

  would they love it so the in this new [TS]

  Mac Renaissance of where we all believe [TS]

  apples turn the corner on the Mac and [TS]

  it's paying more attention to it and [TS]

  it's gonna make a Mac Pro and they're [TS]

  making the iMac Pro and they're doing [TS]

  all these things I'm waiting to see how [TS]

  far does the Mac Renaissance go we know [TS]

  it goes far enough that there are they [TS]

  revive the line of computer that they [TS]

  weren't going to do so that's great I [TS]

  love it like and that gives me hope for [TS]

  everything else but the real test may be [TS]

  what happens to the 15-inch do they go [TS]

  more utilitarian in any way do any ports [TS]

  come back duh is there any recognition [TS]

  that some decisions made with the [TS]

  current line of computers may not be [TS]

  exact even if it's the keyboard which is [TS]

  a topic of conversation this week which [TS]

  may or may not to get to in the show do [TS]

  they change their thinking on the [TS]

  keyboard and say we need to take another [TS]

  run at this in a big way even if the new [TS]

  keyboard is just as thin as the old one [TS]

  to just have a different philosophy of [TS]

  saying like you know we need we need to [TS]

  rethink this like how much are they [TS]

  willing to reconsider on the models the [TS]

  are you know are not the the I was gonna [TS]

  say they're not the very very top end [TS]

  but the 15 inches they're topping yeah [TS]

  right how much are they willing to to [TS]

  reconsider and I'm still maintaining [TS]

  fantasies that they're going to be [TS]

  willing to reconsider a lot that the new [TS]

  Mac Pro will will be the the giant [TS]

  purpose-built heat exchanger that I was [TS]

  describing that you know the iMac Pro [TS]

  really will be amazingly fast and [TS]

  competent even if it is in the same case [TS]

  and that the new line of laptops like [TS]

  that we'll see we'll see that they're [TS]

  learning from their mistakes and they [TS]

  make different decisions about it and [TS]

  they can make a big deal out of it like [TS]

  we heard you we know you don't want as [TS]

  many dongles so now there's HDMI and an [TS]

  SD card or whatever whatever they decide [TS]

  like that would be a huge applause line [TS]

  tons of people would love it it would [TS]

  make the computers more popular some [TS]

  people be disappointed that it's not as [TS]

  simple but how many how many who don't [TS]

  work in the sealed off frosted glass [TS]

  area with Johnny I would actually be [TS]

  disappointed by those computers yeah so [TS]

  Jenny I've come come in the show we're [TS]

  waiting for you we respond to this week [TS]

  by betterment rethink what your money [TS]

  can do visit betterment comm slash ATP [TS]

  for more information betterment is a [TS]

  largest independent online financial [TS]

  advisor designed to help improve [TS]

  customers long-term returns and lower [TS]

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  strategies and uses technology to [TS]

  deliver them to more than two hundred [TS]

  and seventy thousand customers [TS]

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  from their team of licensed financial [TS]

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  messaging feature and betterment is a [TS]

  fiduciary this means that they do not [TS]

  get commissions for recommending funds [TS]

  and they don't have any funds of their [TS]

  own they do what they believe is right [TS]

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  required so visit betterment comm slash [TS]

  ATP that's betterment comm slash ATP to [TS]

  start your review today investing [TS]

  involves risk betterment rethink what [TS]

  your money can do by the way there was [TS]

  one thing about that picture I posted [TS]

  about my setup that you appeared not to [TS]

  have noticed your glass of water Joe how [TS]

  many dongles do I have I don't know some [TS]

  of them are black and some of them are [TS]

  white so I can't really tell I gave it a [TS]

  zoom in I'm 100% in this let's see zoom [TS]

  in I see John what shape are my arrow [TS]

  keys oh they're not full-size is that [TS]

  the yeah the screens different I could [TS]

  tell from the screen bars and that's [TS]

  2015 yes it is but you do you still have [TS]

  a dog was that Ethernet yeah yeah [TS]

  Thunderbolt Ethernet and then you've got [TS]

  the MagSafe where's the black thing [TS]

  coming out optical audio optical audio [TS]

  which doesn't exist in the new ones but [TS]

  does it just on my iMac the trackpad is [TS]

  smaller and a little cut out where [TS]

  you're the finger thing where you reach [TS]

  in to get the lip to open it up is [TS]

  actually not as wide as well I believe [TS]

  anyway yeah do you have 20 I can't keep [TS]

  track of what laughter 17 I do but not [TS]

  for long I'm going to sell it [TS]

  alright and where did this 15 covers is [TS]

  just one of your old ones that did you [TS]

  buy another one [TS]

  eBay eBay can't you just buy these [TS]

  directly from Apple now you can they [TS]

  still sell them yeah they still sell [TS]

  them brand new this one was this is the [TS]

  base CPU the 2.2 with the 512 SSD which [TS]

  I basically I required a bigger SSD the [TS]

  last one I actually had one of these you [TS]

  know in 2015 it was only the 256 SSD and [TS]

  it killed me I like one of the reasons I [TS]

  had to upgrade was just because like I [TS]

  just kept slamming into that because [TS]

  like you know when you want you to my [TS]

  iOS development you need a ton of disk [TS]

  space to keep up with all the you know [TS]

  betas and everything else so anyway so [TS]

  512 SSD everything else is based on it [TS]

  and it has Apple care because it was [TS]

  bought in September of 2016 like a month [TS]

  before the new ones came out it has [TS]

  Apple Care till 29 [TS]

  the battery only had 50 cycles on it and [TS]

  it was 1,600 bucks to get the same thing [TS]

  new from Apple with Apple care would be [TS]

  $2,800 oh so I decided to go used on it [TS]

  and it's totally great and because so [TS]

  here's you know basically what happened [TS]

  here is my plan of you of getting the [TS]

  2017 15 inch and using it all summer at [TS]

  the beach and then bringing it home [TS]

  bring the LG 5k home and using that as [TS]

  my desktop until the Mac Pro comes out [TS]

  that plan ended up being just not not [TS]

  working for me because it ends up the 15 [TS]

  inch is not a great desktop it can serve [TS]

  as one wait you know with the LG Display [TS]

  like it can be a desktop but it's not a [TS]

  very good desktop I would rather use my [TS]

  three year old iMac that that is [TS]

  purpose-built for that then then use [TS]

  that you know the weird you know like [TS]

  weird clamshell and everything else so [TS]

  I'm just gonna try to keep using my [TS]

  using my Mac and you know I gave these [TS]

  butterfly keyboards a year I first had a [TS]

  2016 touch bar 15-inch sold it [TS]

  switch to the MacBook Escape sold that [TS]

  to my curly and switched back to this [TS]

  this summer when I wouldn't I just when [TS]

  I had this hairbrained desktop idea I I [TS]

  gave this keyboard a year I've had the [TS]

  2016 version and the 2017 version [TS]

  they're all just incredibly incompatible [TS]

  with me I thought I'd get used to it I [TS]

  didn't I hated every single minute of [TS]

  typing on it every single time I would [TS]

  think to use that computer I would be [TS]

  kind of it would turn me off from [TS]

  wanting to use my laptop to know to have [TS]

  that keyboard there because every single [TS]

  time I typed on that keyboard I hated it [TS]

  and every time I said you know maybe [TS]

  everyone's right and I'll get used to it [TS]

  and i gave it a year people and i didn't [TS]

  get used to it and every time i like i [TS]

  would i would see someone else's like [TS]

  what you were just saying about the [TS]

  conference room every time I would see [TS]

  someone else's 2015 era 13 or 15 inch [TS]

  retina MacBook Pro I would be like oh [TS]

  man I wish I never sold mine I like that [TS]

  so much better if they show you and I [TS]

  started browsing eBay I'm like you know [TS]

  what these are not that expensive to get [TS]

  to get one that's very lightly used [TS]

  these are really pretty and expect [TS]

  and I can sell the one I have for [TS]

  probably like $2,800 and so I walked [TS]

  about it for a while and I was worried [TS]

  I'm like is it gonna feel really old am [TS]

  I gonna regret like am I gonna regret [TS]

  you know losing USBC am I going to you [TS]

  know regret that it's bigger and heavier [TS]

  am I gonna is is just everything gonna [TS]

  feel and look old and I'm gonna feel [TS]

  like I'm stepping back into the past my [TS]

  impression of this has quite surprised [TS]

  me actually nothing about it feels [TS]

  bigger or heavier it is but it's such a [TS]

  small difference that honestly when you [TS]

  go the other direction you don't really [TS]

  notice it like it's it's it's a half [TS]

  pound heavier and it's you know a couple [TS]

  of millimeters wider in each dimension [TS]

  or something like that like it's not [TS]

  it's not that much different like you [TS]

  didn't like for all the crazy things we [TS]

  gave up to go to the super thin you know [TS]

  USBC models it didn't actually get that [TS]

  much thinner or that much lighter so oh [TS]

  and the battery life is better on 2015's [TS]

  by the way on this used 2015 model the [TS]

  battery life is better than my almost [TS]

  new 2017 model and not by a small amount [TS]

  either because surprise the battery is [TS]

  twenty thirty three percent bigger so [TS]

  it's that actually matters you know even [TS]

  with an older processor so anyway you [TS]

  don't notice the size difference when [TS]

  you go the other direction I did not [TS]

  notice the loss of the trackpad size I [TS]

  did not like I you just immediately [TS]

  adjust in fact it's actually easier [TS]

  because now there's no more accidental [TS]

  trackpad input when you brush against it [TS]

  I did not notice the loss of the touch [TS]

  bar because I always hated it and never [TS]

  really got into using it I occasionally [TS]

  miss touch ID but not much I love having [TS]

  the arrow keys back to the way they were [TS]

  because I can feel them because you need [TS]

  arrow keys that have a different shape [TS]

  than the rest of the keys because they [TS]

  are far away from the home row so when [TS]

  you reach over to them you you are not [TS]

  as precise as you would be with keys [TS]

  near the home row because you're moving [TS]

  your hand a little bit so you need there [TS]

  to be some kind of tactile feedback so [TS]

  you can feel where the right keys are in [TS]

  order to hit the right one [TS]

  that's why the new generation arrow keys [TS]

  that have no metal gap in them and that [TS]

  are all the same height are so easy to [TS]

  hit the wrong one on because your hand [TS]

  is moving over there and hat and has [TS]

  nothing to anchor itself based on feel [TS]

  so the arrow keys in this are perfect [TS]

  they feel wonderful the rest of the [TS]

  keyboard is perfect and feels wonderful [TS]

  for about a second [TS]

  it felt mushy and then it felt great [TS]

  that took no adjustment time the ports [TS]

  are luxurious I got to remove oh geez I [TS]

  mean a whole bag full of stuff from my [TS]

  travel bag like I got to remove so much [TS]

  crap so many dongles my entire dongle [TS]

  bag is now just in storage until I until [TS]

  I have to switch back to a USB sometime [TS]

  in the future so that's like my travel [TS]

  bag is so simple it's just the laptop [TS]

  and a power adapter and a couple of the [TS]

  USB cables that I was already bringing [TS]

  before because nothing else in the world [TS]

  is USB see so like I was already [TS]

  traveling with USB of lightning cables [TS]

  so I could plug them into hotel you know [TS]

  lamp tables and stuff so I'm just using [TS]

  those now to travel with and the [TS]

  computer and the power cable that's it I [TS]

  don't need a SD card reader I don't need [TS]

  any dongles I don't need any hubs and [TS]

  HDMI adapters and everything it just [TS]

  works and it's all built in and it looks [TS]

  great and it feels great and it feels [TS]

  like a computer that was designed for [TS]

  use not a computer that I have to adapt [TS]

  myself to it you know this computer was [TS]

  designed for me to use it and I am just [TS]

  so much happier the only thing I miss [TS]

  about the new one I don't miss the [TS]

  thinness I don't miss the lightness I [TS]

  don't miss the Space Gray because by the [TS]

  way the Space Gray you know that's a [TS]

  very fragile coating and that [TS]

  that'll that'll chip pretty easily if [TS]

  you if you even Nick it a little bit the [TS]

  only thing I missed surprisingly is I [TS]

  actually kind of Miss having USB see for [TS]

  power even though I don't miss the old [TS]

  the USB see brick that doesn't have the [TS]

  little cable management wings it is nice [TS]

  to be able to use other third-party [TS]

  chargers so really for example like the [TS]

  anchor 60 [TS]

  what thing that I that I have it would [TS]

  be like it's nice to use that it would [TS]

  be nice to be able to use USBC batteries [TS]

  if I knew if I needed to on the plane [TS]

  but ultimately that isn't that much of a [TS]

  problem because this thing has a ninety [TS]

  nine point five watt power battery in it [TS]

  it's a pretty big battery the battery [TS]

  life is pretty good [TS]

  it probably won't ever won't need a [TS]

  battery in practice it's just great [TS]

  it doesn't feel noticeably slow it [TS]

  doesn't like there's nothing there's no [TS]

  other downsides to it and in fact when [TS]

  you buy an old one off of ebay not only [TS]

  do you save a ton of money all the [TS]

  accessories cost way less than they did [TS]

  when they were new so like I long ago I [TS]

  got rid of my Thunderbolt II ether nerds [TS]

  after because I thought I would never [TS]

  use it again so I had to buy a new one [TS]

  to use Ethernet here at home for this [TS]

  because that's how I tear out my [TS]

  computers and you know I think when it [TS]

  was new it was like 30 or 40 or 50 bucks [TS]

  I got one on eBay new for like ninety [TS]

  nineteen dollars [TS]

  I have another another power adapter an [TS]

  extra power after coming tomorrow also [TS]

  knew that was thirty dollars like it's [TS]

  just it's just great like I think [TS]

  there's a reason they still sell this [TS]

  because it's a fantastic computer that [TS]

  I've had a lot of people are still [TS]

  buying it's it's just great I'm so happy [TS]

  with it and I hope that I can use it [TS]

  until they make a computer that I [TS]

  actually that actually is better for me [TS]

  I have thoughts so first of all this is [TS]

  the epitome of different strokes for [TS]

  different folks right because I have [TS]

  basically this machine as a work machine [TS]

  and we are still buying or really [TS]

  leasing this machine brand-new for [TS]

  incoming employees and coming engineers [TS]

  we do not have a touch bar Mac that is [TS]

  being issued by my company yet I forget [TS]

  the reasoning behind it but it basically [TS]

  boils down to it provides little to no [TS]

  benefits so why bother every time I'm [TS]

  away from my desk and away from my [TS]

  wireless magic keyboard and have to type [TS]

  on my work laptops keyboard I hate it [TS]

  God do I hate it it's mushy it's sloppy [TS]

  and it just feels friggin gross and it's [TS]

  funny to me because you have the exact [TS]

  same opinion but the other direction in [TS]

  that we are like polar opposites on this [TS]

  and you know what that's that's fine you [TS]

  know everyone has an opinion that's okay [TS]

  what works for you is great what works [TS]

  for me is great and that's fine but it's [TS]

  funny to me that you prefer this so [TS]

  heavily particularly the keyboard like [TS]

  the rest of it yeah that makes sense but [TS]

  particularly the keyboard I'm surprised [TS]

  you prefer it that much my question for [TS]

  you though is what's your long game on [TS]

  this like you're just gonna pull a [TS]

  siracusa and run this until you can't [TS]

  get whatever ridiculous California code [TS]

  name is like three or four versions now [TS]

  like what what is the long game because [TS]

  eventually I I reckon you're either so [TS]

  there's only a couple of ways to go [TS]

  right you use this until you can't [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  and then you're gonna have to figure out [TS]

  a new plan you wait for Apple to have an [TS]

  oops [TS]

  we're sorry which to be fair is [TS]

  certainly possible but not exactly their [TS]

  style now I would say unlikely yeah and [TS]

  unlikely and I feel like I had a third [TS]

  but I lost it but do you see what I'm [TS]

  saying like you just go to I guess you [TS]

  buy a Lenovo like you know what is what [TS]

  is the long play for you then I mean I [TS]

  could hackintosh it with someone else's [TS]

  laptop but no I mean it the long-term [TS]

  play here is I hope this lasts me long [TS]

  enough that I either stop caring about [TS]

  having a good laptop stop needing a good [TS]

  laptop or Apple starts making better [TS]

  ones and as simple as that I mean I hope [TS]

  it lasts that long if not I'm gonna have [TS]

  to figure something else out it could be [TS]

  next summer they might release a new one [TS]

  that I like and that I switched to that [TS]

  I have no idea but honestly I don't I [TS]

  think that would be too soon I believe [TS]

  that would seem very unlikely to me my [TS]

  long-term plan here is like when the [TS]

  when the scroll Direction changed in Mac [TS]

  OS whenever that which ramen was that [TS]

  like lion or something it was a it was a [TS]

  while ago now yeah maybe even earlier [TS]

  than that yeah so when the scroll [TS]

  Direction changed I I thought you know [TS]

  they have an option to keep it the other [TS]

  direction but we know how Apple is [TS]

  only there's only gonna be a limited [TS]

  time that that options gonna be there so [TS]

  I might as well get used to the new one [TS]

  now and switch so I switched immediately [TS]

  hated it gave it like a few days still [TS]

  hated it and I switch back you know I [TS]

  thought you know what there might come a [TS]

  time where I don't have this choice [TS]

  anymore but that time hasn't come yet so [TS]

  let me just enjoy the way I like it [TS]

  while I still have the choice and then [TS]

  when the time comes the forces for you [TS]

  to make to make a choice don't want to [TS]

  make I'll deal with it then so that's [TS]

  kind of my philosophy with this like [TS]

  this is not a sustainable plan to just [TS]

  keep using the 2015 MacBook Pro forever [TS]

  like obviously it's not a sustainable [TS]

  plan but I don't need to give it up [TS]

  right now I am way happier with this [TS]

  laptop right now than I am with the 2017 [TS]

  model and so I can use this for probably [TS]

  a while I'm probably going to want to [TS]

  move to something else before I'm forced [TS]

  to move to something else and I dread [TS]

  and so I might as well enjoy this while [TS]

  I can while it is still great while it [TS]

  is still competitive and useful and and [TS]

  works great when the time comes for [TS]

  whatever reason that stops being the [TS]

  case then I'll figure it out that [TS]

  real-time follow-up it was lying by the [TS]

  way where they had the feature and all [TS]

  right I'm and I am still I still have [TS]

  that in a non default setting as well [TS]

  because wait the two of you are saying [TS]

  that you are not on natural scrolling [TS]

  you're on the the scrolling from the 80s [TS]

  cool yeah yes oh my word you're so old [TS]

  the two of you I mean you you're so [TS]

  there's no reason to change it like I [TS]

  mean I'm I'm I didn't even try to get [TS]

  used to the new way because they they [TS]

  gave you an option from day one to not [TS]

  do that I'm like oh well it's not like I [TS]

  just don't even appeal aside it's a GUI [TS]

  option unchecked never think about it [TS]

  again and they've sustained that like [TS]

  it's it's still there still you can do [TS]

  the opposite way and so that's the way I [TS]

  like it [TS]

  I also remap command end to new folder [TS]

  because I've been doing it since I was [TS]

  10 years old and there's a paper in the [TS]

  operating system that lets you assign [TS]

  keyboard shortcuts to any menu in any [TS]

  application and it's a supportive thing [TS]

  so of course I do it like I don't I [TS]

  don't see why I wouldn't like that's [TS]

  part of a computer being a computer [TS]

  right that's what separates us from the [TS]

  the multipad mongrels right guess what I [TS]

  can reassign in it not by hacking [TS]

  something it's a feature of the [TS]

  operating systems workflow system System [TS]

  Preferences you just go there and type [TS]

  like it's a real thing anyway yeah [TS]

  and I kind of feel the same way about [TS]

  scroll direction like if forced I'm you [TS]

  know they take it away and there's no [TS]

  plist hack or whatever I probably won't [TS]

  go to heroic links to get it back but I [TS]

  might grumble but you might grumble yeah [TS]

  I think Markos plan is mostly [TS]

  sustainable because like anna i still [TS]

  keep thinking perhaps wrongly that we [TS]

  are in the beginnings of a mac [TS]

  renaissance and that it's going to take [TS]

  a while because computers take a long [TS]

  time like the pipeline is long but that [TS]

  Apple is indeed reconsidering some of [TS]

  its broad decisions about how it makes [TS]

  Macs and so the new keyboard that has [TS]

  more travel and is more reliable and is [TS]

  more pleasing to people who don't like [TS]

  the new one and is only on the 15-inch [TS]

  model or whatever that's not coming like [TS]

  anytime soon but if they start on it now [TS]

  in three years it will be here and [TS]

  that's you know like them reconsidering [TS]

  how they build their computers and what [TS]

  people want out of them like satisfying [TS]

  Mac users again that Mac Roundtable [TS]

  everything they said that Mac roundtable [TS]

  was essentially we hear you we've [TS]

  realized we've been doing things in the [TS]

  wrong way and we're going to change [TS]

  course and try to do them in the right [TS]

  way like the way that will make [TS]

  everybody happy [TS]

  starting with hey the Mac Pro we were [TS]

  gonna get rid of it we didn't think it [TS]

  was necessary but actually it is how far [TS]

  that goes I don't know but if you're a [TS]

  little patience I like I think you have [TS]

  to give it time this takes you know [TS]

  there's a long pipe but you know the [TS]

  pipeline takes a while to to flush all [TS]

  this bad stuff out of the system before [TS]

  you see the new ones and it's just a [TS]

  question of how far they'll go the Mac [TS]

  Pro is gonna be a great test if the Mac [TS]

  Pro comes out and it's another cylinder [TS]

  type exercise that does not bode well [TS]

  for Marco's eBay computer because he's [TS]

  gonna be hanging about for a while while [TS]

  he waits for them you know [TS]

  Oh like one approach they could take is [TS]

  we know a lot of people love the new [TS]

  keyboard I kind of like it too by the [TS]

  way like I'd almost never use it so I [TS]

  think my laptop at work is actually a [TS]

  great test case because of my laptop [TS]

  keyboard of work dies that's a bad sign [TS]

  because I type on it so little like I [TS]

  type on my other keyboard all the time [TS]

  it's not but it could be that a lot of [TS]

  people like that and one way they could [TS]

  go is we'll just make that reliable find [TS]

  a way to make that keyboard that feels [TS]

  like that the case he really likes and [TS]

  that a lot of the people really like and [TS]

  that I kind of like - other than the [TS]

  arrow keys and all the other laptop [TS]

  keyboard crap that I hate just because [TS]

  of key layout just make that reliable if [TS]

  that's what they do in three years again [TS]

  bad sign for Marco so we have many [TS]

  things to be watching but I'm I'm you [TS]

  know I'm still entertaining fantasies [TS]

  that they are really turning the ship [TS]

  here and they're gonna let the Mac be [TS]

  the Mac in hardware and in software and [TS]

  make all of us old-school Mac users [TS]

  happy because honestly it's like who are [TS]

  you trying to make happy with the Mac's [TS]

  who is who's super happy with these new [TS]

  computers make people might like them [TS]

  and I know a lot of people do like the [TS]

  new keyboard but I don't think anybody [TS]

  is head over heels for the new laptops [TS]

  and nobody was really head over heels [TS]

  for the new Mac Pro either so there's [TS]

  some work to be done there and hapless [TS]

  as they're gonna do it and I feel like I [TS]

  want to give him a chance to bowl me [TS]

  over before really was topic we should [TS]

  also mention the amazing article by [TS]

  Casey Johnson at the outline about the [TS]

  keyboards that came out yesterday that [TS]

  like you know the basically going [TS]

  through her process of like having to [TS]

  get keys repaired multiple times the [TS]

  Genius Bar the crazy things they tell [TS]

  her the you know the the the like [TS]

  feigned surprise oh it must be a speck [TS]

  of dust it's like come on this is a [TS]

  white spring like they should know about [TS]

  this by now it's a gray Oracle that I [TS]

  think everybody should read it spawned a [TS]

  lot of discussion around the other blogs [TS]

  as well pretty much everyone linked to [TS]

  it and said yeah me too you know and you [TS]

  know so it's it's pretty great and you [TS]

  know just to add to this there are a lot [TS]

  of people when when stuff like this [TS]

  comes out like when when we complain [TS]

  about the keyboard here [TS]

  or when other people complain about it [TS]

  or even people report problems with it [TS]

  there's a lot of people who are like [TS]

  well I love it it's my favorite keyboard [TS]

  ever and the old ones all feel like crap [TS]

  to me now I'm not that different from [TS]

  cases opinion of it and I want to just [TS]

  state two separate things here you know [TS]

  number one you can love it [TS]

  you can love the way the new keyboard [TS]

  feels that is a separate thing from is [TS]

  it reliable or not like if the new [TS]

  keyboard has as many problems as it [TS]

  appears to have anecdotally from almost [TS]

  everyone I know who has one and almost [TS]

  everyone who I've asked on Twitter [TS]

  problems are widespread with keys [TS]

  getting stuck or breaking widespread it [TS]

  certainly seems like this is a pretty [TS]

  big problem and it's also important to [TS]

  point out these laptops aren't very old [TS]

  and they're having these problems [TS]

  already you know in many cases they have [TS]

  these problems within a few months of [TS]

  ownership so it's you know there there [TS]

  are problems with this keyboard you can [TS]

  like it you can like the way it feels [TS]

  but if it has problems with reliability [TS]

  it's a bad keyboard regardless of what [TS]

  you think of yours personally my second [TS]

  thing to point out is that these aren't [TS]

  the only two choices we have you have [TS]

  the 2015 and B an earlier keyboard and [TS]

  you have the you know MacBook hard as a [TS]

  rock keyboard that breaks constantly [TS]

  there are other options for keyboards [TS]

  that I'll book an use and in fact they [TS]

  already have one and Cayce already loves [TS]

  it it's called the magic keyboard - the [TS]

  magic keyboard - is very very thin [TS]

  it has Johnny's dumb layout where [TS]

  there's no space between any of the keys [TS]

  and the arrow keys are all the same that [TS]

  are all square and have no gap so you [TS]

  can't feel the where they are so it [TS]

  satisfies apple's needs to be thin and [TS]

  be symmetric at the cost of feeling good [TS]

  it has pretty shallow travel feels very [TS]

  precise has a much more precise click [TS]

  and less wobbly nests in the old 2015 [TS]

  laptop keyboards best thing is that uses [TS]

  scissor switches the old reliable [TS]

  scissor switches that didn't die when [TS]

  one speck of dust got in one key Apple [TS]

  already has the solution to this problem [TS]

  they can have a modern clicky or feel [TS]

  with lower [TS]

  Travel they can have the stupid layout [TS]

  that they want of the keys with no space [TS]

  and bad arrow key is and it can be super [TS]

  thin but it can also have reliable key [TS]

  switches that also do provide a little [TS]

  more travel than the MacBook keyboard [TS]

  and a little less travel than 2015 [TS]

  keyboard so it's kind of this nice hat [TS]

  that's nice happy medium there and it [TS]

  should be way more reliable so all they [TS]

  have to do is take that keyboard that [TS]

  they already make and find a way to put [TS]

  that into laptops and if you go to a [TS]

  store and you look at a magic keyboard [TS]

  they're pretty damn thin I have a [TS]

  feeling they Apple can figure out how to [TS]

  do that so being the optimist again I [TS]

  think that you know again it takes a [TS]

  while for these decisions to make it [TS]

  from like we've decided to do a thing to [TS]

  do manifesting a product so it still [TS]

  could be years but their recent changes [TS]

  in the iOS device line [TS]

  give me some optimism here one of the [TS]

  best examples is both the iPhone 7 and [TS]

  the iPhone 10 and I guess the eights as [TS]

  well like the iPhone 7 prioritising [TS]

  battery life and going with the same [TS]

  form factor for the third year in a row [TS]

  and getting so much better battery life [TS]

  than the 6 and also the 10 the 10 not [TS]

  being you know even thinner than the 7 [TS]

  like it's saying we're going to you know [TS]

  either make it thicker or keep it the [TS]

  same thickness and we're gonna spend [TS]

  that on battery the two extra hours of [TS]

  battery life shows a change in [TS]

  philosophy from every single year we're [TS]

  going to keep making it thinner and [TS]

  thinner and just try to maintain past [TS]

  two iterations have been we're not going [TS]

  to try to make it thinner at all costs [TS]

  and just maintain we want to increase [TS]

  battery life 7 was better than the 6 and [TS]

  this 10 is way better than the 7 two [TS]

  hours they advertise and that's what [TS]

  exactly what we've asked them until [TS]

  you're making the wrong choices you're [TS]

  making it too thin [TS]

  go in the other direction and it took [TS]

  many many years for that to happen but [TS]

  they did it so I am optimistic that even [TS]

  if it's not the exact magic keyboard [TS]

  that three years from now the new [TS]

  professional laptop will have a keyboard [TS]

  that is reliable and maybe that also has [TS]

  more key travel [TS]

  maybe not because I and I don't know [TS]

  what the percentages are for people who [TS]

  like the new one and people who don't [TS]

  and like I said I kind of like it but [TS]

  certainly the reliability whatever they [TS]

  have to do that and by the way on the [TS]

  reliability front someone who's been [TS]

  using scissors switch keys for a long [TS]

  time and who's had them on laptops for a [TS]

  long time they are way more reliable [TS]

  obviously than they than the butterfly [TS]

  ones that proven to be but they're also [TS]

  less reliable than their predecessors I [TS]

  have broken keyboards with these scissor [TS]

  switches multiple times I've worn [TS]

  through at least one possibly two [TS]

  because one of my keys is sometimes [TS]

  wonky at work [TS]

  aluminum Apple extended the keyboards I [TS]

  have broken keys on PowerBook g4 era [TS]

  computers which also has switches under [TS]

  their very different-looking key caps [TS]

  right I have never broken a key a key [TS]

  switch on an Apple extended to which I [TS]

  use for years and years in the years [TS]

  since like 1989 or whatever in the ac30 [TS]

  came out I have never broken a key [TS]

  switch on any keys before that so if you [TS]

  want to compare reliability for the [TS]

  little plastic scissor switch things [TS]

  compared to the quote-unquote mechanical [TS]

  keys and other keyboards on the term [TS]

  that drives me nuts as if it is a [TS]

  downgrade and reliability for size it's [TS]

  just a question of is it an acceptable [TS]

  downgrade me using an Apple extended [TS]

  Apple aluminum extended keyboard for [TS]

  seven years and then I break a key Mike [TS]

  alright I've been pounding on this [TS]

  keyboard 8 hours a day at work for seven [TS]

  years I accept that I have now broken [TS]

  one of the very commonly used keys and I [TS]

  can kind of get it to fix because I'm [TS]

  pretty good at like prying off these key [TS]

  caps and putting it back on but it's [TS]

  always a little bit wonky you know what [TS]

  7 years good job keyboard your filthy [TS]

  anyway because I haven't been cleaning [TS]

  he well enough buy another keyboard 50 [TS]

  bucks in your fine that we're willing I [TS]

  think we're all willing to trade that [TS]

  even though Apple extended to you could [TS]

  you know defend yourself from a mugger [TS]

  with and it will still work fine like [TS]

  there is no you know I mean like [TS]

  literally never broke I I remember right [TS]

  I dropped a pocketknife off a high shelf [TS]

  and it landed on the keyboard with like [TS]

  the blade out because I don't know had [TS]

  my knife and my blade out and it like [TS]

  cut off like the corner of one of the [TS]

  keys [TS]

  that thing was still fine like enough [TS]

  force to actually cut the plastic of the [TS]

  key cap of the key switch was fine so [TS]

  the thing was like a tank but you know [TS]

  so there's there's leeway for Apple to [TS]

  be thinner be more elegant be lighter [TS]

  weight reduced reliability just don't [TS]

  reduce it quite that much and it feels [TS]

  like they've they've gone too far with [TS]

  this one so I I have some hope that they [TS]

  are going to turn the ship on this one [TS]

  and it frustrates me that none of us [TS]

  know how widespread this problem really [TS]

  is we just you know so all anecdotes and [TS]

  like oh yeah of course you know everyone [TS]

  who's even respond to Casey's article [TS]

  not this Casey the other one is gonna be [TS]

  like people who have keyboard problems [TS]

  the same thing with like when marco was [TS]

  complaining about the keyboard you know [TS]

  a year ago of course we heard from all [TS]

  the other people who hate the keyboard [TS]

  now the other people have reliability [TS]

  problems right but we can't tell [TS]

  percentage-wise it's not it's not a it's [TS]

  not a representative sample it's just [TS]

  the people who are at the extremes and [TS]

  probably mostly people that agree with [TS]

  us but Apple knows and I think Apple [TS]

  geniuses probably kind of know because [TS]

  they you know they're just they're [TS]

  taking all the repairs and stuff so I [TS]

  wish we knew exactly how much we're [TS]

  overreacting to this and not but [TS]

  anecdotally it just seems so clear that [TS]

  like Marco said these are new computers [TS]

  the keyboards are already failing Casey [TS]

  Johnston's article like it is the the it [TS]

  is of a type of you know a very typical [TS]

  article where if you are in if you were [TS]

  in the industry of like writing about [TS]

  these type of products and you [TS]

  personally have to bring your brand-new [TS]

  computer back three times because the [TS]

  keyboard won't work that's like that's [TS]

  you know I'm writing an article about [TS]

  this because this is way outside the [TS]

  realm of expectation three times like [TS]

  fine something you get it doesn't work [TS]

  once you get a repair like and now that [TS]

  it's repaired it'll be fine especially [TS]

  if it's like you're bringing in oh this [TS]

  is the new 2017 keyboard with the rubber [TS]

  bubble blood now it's repaired that's [TS]

  fine but if you bring in and they [TS]

  replace a huge a piece of the computer [TS]

  at great expense and it's just you all [TS]

  you've done it starts the timer again [TS]

  and go to yeah [TS]

  six weeks have passed out bring it back [TS]

  in again that'll be another three to [TS]

  seven hundred dollars and new one just [TS]

  like that's just a bad design like if [TS]

  there's no hope if you feel like [TS]

  bringing it in and getting huge parts of [TS]

  your computer replaced because it's all [TS]

  one giant thing doesn't make you feel [TS]

  like now this problem is fixed all it [TS]

  makes you feel like is you just started [TS]

  a timer on the next failure again that's [TS]

  just a bad design and that's I like I [TS]

  really hope that you know we're [TS]

  capturing these devices and we're [TS]

  looking at the issue and we're taking [TS]

  stock and it's actually not that big a [TS]

  percentage and blah blah blah like I [TS]

  know I don't I don't know what to [TS]

  believe but I do know the hopelessness [TS]

  of that feeling I kind of felt it with [TS]

  my Thunderbolt Display when I would [TS]

  bring it in and get it quote-unquote [TS]

  repaired with huge amounts of the guts [TS]

  replaced but then I would get it back on [TS]

  the same problem would be there and I [TS]

  had to bring that in three times as well [TS]

  but luckily the third time was the charm [TS]

  and you know that did it but these [TS]

  keyboards I have very little faith that [TS]

  your third repair is going to be any [TS]

  more successful than your first or [TS]

  second repair especially if you've got [TS]

  the quote-unquote new keyboard on the [TS]

  second repair and the third repair so [TS]

  this is all the type of thing that makes [TS]

  me believe that Apple will change its [TS]

  mind on this design a new keyboard or [TS]

  adapt the the the magic one that the [TS]

  other case is so confusing [TS]

  and in two to three years we will see a [TS]

  new 15 inch with these new keys and [TS]

  Apple will talk about it in a subtle but [TS]

  not particularly self-deprecating way [TS]

  and we will all cheer and it'll be safe [TS]

  for Marco to buy one unless it still has [TS]

  no ports so much cases still be angry [TS]

  just just for the record I have not used [TS]

  a touch bar MacBook Pro for more than [TS]

  about 45 seconds in an Apple Store so [TS]

  that could be the utter filth and [TS]

  dumpster fire that everyone says it is I [TS]

  don't know but I do freakin love my [TS]

  macbook adorable are there things I [TS]

  would change sure I would love to have [TS]

  one more port I would love to have [TS]

  MagSafe but in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things I freaking love this computer [TS]

  it's all of the good parts of the iPad [TS]

  except without that iOS thing that holds [TS]

  you back and so I love this computer [TS]

  I am looking forward to one day in like [TS]

  two years or something like that [TS]

  eventually getting a touch bar MacBook [TS]

  Pro at work and seeing what that's like [TS]

  don't I love doing this you know what I [TS]

  mean I love my iMac I am I am hopeful [TS]

  however that especially this keyboard [TS]

  that I think Marco you know you made a [TS]

  really great point earlier you really me [TS]

  I do like it I absolutely like it but I [TS]

  also concur that it is not as reliable [TS]

  as it should be and I had to buy it and [TS]

  we talked about on the show I had to buy [TS]

  a can of compressed a or it's the first [TS]

  time I bought one in probably a decade [TS]

  because I needed to blow out this [TS]

  microscopic piece of dust from under the [TS]

  keyboard such that it would operate [TS]

  properly again and it turns out I just [TS]

  moved it to a different key and the [TS]

  second time I blew it out and I think [TS]

  that actually did it but like that's [TS]

  that's not an acceptable answer right [TS]

  you I've never had to blow out an Apple [TS]

  keyboard before and I just hope that [TS]

  Apple is willing and I think they are is [TS]

  willing to revisit this in the future [TS]

  but I love this iMac and I love this [TS]

  MacBook adorable and we'll see what [TS]

  happens with my next computer whenever I [TS]

  buy it the other thing I wish this [TS]

  MacBook adorable had though was touch ID [TS]

  or face ID question mark that would be [TS]

  cool do we think that's coming before we [TS]

  turn to the Mac show which happens [TS]

  occasionally sorry people or Mac users I [TS]

  mean have they seen the show art it [TS]

  shouldn't be that much of a surprise [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  face idea that Mac has been in here for [TS]

  a while and I just want to touch on this [TS]

  especially in light of Marco [TS]

  talking about iMac Pro versus Mac Pro I [TS]

  forget how we know the iMac Pro is gonna [TS]

  have a secure Enclave that Apple just [TS]

  announced that or did people like just [TS]

  ask the person who was in front of the [TS]

  computer and WDC amber I think it was in [TS]

  some firmware reference there's some efi [TS]

  reference somewhere well anyway one of [TS]

  the potential advantages of an all on [TS]

  computer kind of like the advantage that [TS]

  at Apple you know leverage to bring the [TS]

  5k iMac at first is that you can do a [TS]

  lot of stuff when it's everything is [TS]

  inside the same case so a weird display [TS]

  controller [TS]

  with like you know the timing controller [TS]

  and the dual internal cable you could do [TS]

  all that and it's like it's all in one [TS]

  box you don't have to worry about that [TS]

  it they can give you a 5k screen in the [TS]

  iMac before they can give it to you on [TS]

  the Mac Pro or some other computer with [TS]

  an external thing because they don't [TS]

  want to have to wires connecting it an [TS]

  elegant involved well one of the other [TS]

  things that you can do is stuff like [TS]

  face ID where you have you got the seer [TS]

  Enclave and you guaranteed to have a [TS]

  camera and you know where the camera is [TS]

  and you know what the quality of it is [TS]

  and you've got it pointed at the [TS]

  person's face and you've got all the [TS]

  sensors and the IR dot thing and so on [TS]

  and so forth so face ID starts to take [TS]

  off and works well I really do want to [TS]

  see it on Macs and you know the [TS]

  all-in-one computer is both laptops on [TS]

  the iMac are perfect place for it to [TS]

  appear we were talking about touch ID [TS]

  and the touch bar on on Macs like on a [TS]

  separate keyboard but that poses a lot [TS]

  of problems can the touch bar work over [TS]

  Bluetooth if the secure Enclave is [TS]

  inside the keyboard how does that [TS]

  communicate and similarly with face ID [TS]

  and the IR sensor and the camera and [TS]

  everything if Apple makes an external [TS]

  display which they are they're making an [TS]

  external display but they want to put [TS]

  face ID in it they could do it but how [TS]

  does that communicate back to the host [TS]

  computer I guess the answer is like oh [TS]

  there's to be Thunderbolt 3 and there [TS]

  would be no problem but that's an [TS]

  additional complexity that makes that [TS]

  monitor even more complex and more [TS]

  fraught and more like potentially flaky [TS]

  that if everything is in the same box so [TS]

  I don't know if the iMac pros will have [TS]

  phase ID kind of seems like they [TS]

  wouldn't just because I feel like the [TS]

  timing of their production and the [TS]

  timing of the iPhone 10 production don't [TS]

  don't match up in a way that I would [TS]

  expect the first iteration of the iMac [TS]

  Pro to have them but I I fully expect [TS]

  and I think Apple should integrate face [TS]

  ID into all their Mac's eventually if it [TS]

  works well much more so than touch ID [TS]

  which has been integrated into the [TS]

  laptops but hasn't made it to the [TS]

  desktops and having you have you know a [TS]

  laptop with touch ID now and it's not [TS]

  the best implementation it's a little [TS]

  bit slow but I would love it if I just [TS]

  opened the lid on my laptop and it [TS]

  unlocked [TS]

  seeing my face because it's the perfect [TS]

  scenario when you lift the lid on your [TS]

  laptop chances are even better than when [TS]

  you use a phone that you will be facing [TS]

  it like that's how you open the lid on [TS]

  your laptop when it's facing you right [TS]

  it's like Here I am you open up and your [TS]

  face comes right into view whereas your [TS]

  phone you could like pull out of your [TS]

  pocket or whatever might be facing the [TS]

  weird direction much more challenging [TS]

  there and similarly on a Mac you sit [TS]

  down in front of your computer boy it's [TS]

  got a great view of your face it can [TS]

  spray those ir dots all over like it's [TS]

  just it's right there everything's built [TS]

  into one thing and so I really hope they [TS]

  do bring that to Mac's I really hope [TS]

  they kind of like skip touch ID and say [TS]

  well we brought a touch ID to our [TS]

  laptops and it's okay [TS]

  but you know what let's just skip right [TS]

  to face ID because even more so than [TS]

  KC's beloved watch unlock face ID is the [TS]

  ultimate I was gonna say because it's [TS]

  super quick now super quick between the [TS]

  do watch and in the new OS it is super [TS]

  fast but you don't have to have your [TS]

  watch on and you can just sit down and [TS]

  different people can sit down and can [TS]

  recognize who they are and switch to [TS]

  their account like if they can do that [TS]

  well and fast that is a better future [TS]

  for authentication on the Mac then touch [TS]

  ID ever could be and it solves so many [TS]

  problems the only downside is it's more [TS]

  difficult to do on the Mac Pro [TS]

  supposedly there top end computer now [TS]

  you have to figure out a way to you know [TS]

  get those cameras again and maybe maybe [TS]

  I'm overblowing maybe Thunder what [TS]

  really does support solve this problem [TS]

  entirely further maybe they have plenty [TS]

  of bandwidth inside channels for all [TS]

  these weird sensors and everything and [TS]

  there's no problem with the drivers I [TS]

  just I just worry it will be less [TS]

  reliable than it is in the iMac where [TS]

  they've got everything inside the same [TS]

  case the other problem is with laptops [TS]

  is that you have a pretty severe [TS]

  thickness limitation on on the screen [TS]

  lid you know the screen lid is extremely [TS]

  thin you know they keep they can't even [TS]

  fit a decent front-facing camera in the [TS]

  laptops like you can get like you know a [TS]

  $3,000 MacBook Pro that's brand new and [TS]

  the the FaceTime camera on it is worse [TS]

  than like the iPhone 5s is FaceTime [TS]

  camera isn't like it's it's really [TS]

  really bad front cameras on the Mac's [TS]

  possibly for cost reasons cuz they just [TS]

  don't care but most likely also because [TS]

  of thickness reasons that those screen [TS]

  lids are super thin and I don't know if [TS]

  they can fit good enough sensors into [TS]

  those screen lids on the laptops to [TS]

  actually achieve face ID anytime soon I [TS]

  think that a camera is probably good [TS]

  enough already just I don't know how [TS]

  thick [TS]

  I are sprayer depth thing there as soon [TS]

  as we get the I fix that tear down to [TS]

  the phone like is they using all that [TS]

  thickness for the additional sensors or [TS]

  actually those sensors super thin and [TS]

  it's no problem okay I feel like I can [TS]

  fit it there's not as much room as there [TS]

  is on a phone but you know like you can [TS]

  always make it a millimeter to thicker I [TS]

  wouldn't say that they should go with [TS]

  the Bulge but maybe not the first [TS]

  generation but down the line those [TS]

  sensors there's nothing inherent about [TS]

  the sensors like optically speaking that [TS]

  makes me think they can't have it and I [TS]

  think the camera is plenty good enough [TS]

  already it's just the the auxilary [TS]

  sensors the multiple cameras or the IR [TS]

  thing that I don't think they're but [TS]

  anyway no problem on the iMac plenty of [TS]

  room there and so that should be the [TS]

  first the first place it appears is on [TS]

  there you know big desktops because [TS]

  you've got more room more power and [TS]

  that's what they should do yeah I have [TS]

  this like you know slight fantasy that [TS]

  like maybe the iMac Pro does have face [TS]

  ID and that's why it's not out yet they [TS]

  were holding it back until the iPhone [TS]

  unveil with its face ID but I think in [TS]

  reality that's very unlikely it doesn't [TS]

  seem to work out because you know [TS]

  everything having to do with face ID is [TS]

  coming first on the 10 and that is [TS]

  everything with the companies focused on [TS]

  imacro it started so long ago like it [TS]

  seems like their flagship phone is going [TS]

  to blaze the path for this and then like [TS]

  it just doesn't it just doesn't work out [TS]

  timing wise I feel like even the second [TS]

  generation iMac Pro that maybe in the [TS]

  planning stages even that one might not [TS]

  have face I did incorporate it but you [TS]

  know I would love to be too surprised [TS]

  surprised too I mean it's not like any [TS]

  of us scrutinized the forehead of the [TS]

  macro model and that thing to look for [TS]

  tiny little impossible to see slightly [TS]

  differently colored black areas in the [TS]

  forehead to see if we could see an IR [TS]

  sensor yeah I think it's way more likely [TS]

  that face ID does come to the Mac but [TS]

  that's you know in like three years [TS]

  you know not probably not soon well I [TS]

  don't want to wait that long I think [TS]

  next year I want to see it an iMac maybe [TS]

  that can be in the Indy Pro display like [TS]

  you know we we have speculated on the [TS]

  showed like you know they mentioned into [TS]

  that in the Mac Pro briefing last spring [TS]

  that you know they're working on a Mac [TS]

  Pro and also a new Pro display we know [TS]

  nothing about that display except that [TS]

  they said it's going to exist so we [TS]

  don't know like [TS]

  what size it is it could be 8k we don't [TS]

  know like we we have no idea what size [TS]

  it is what resolution it is what [TS]

  features will it have when will it come [TS]

  out what will it cost like we have no [TS]

  idea one of the obvious questions is [TS]

  what would make someone buy the Apple [TS]

  pro display instead of the LG you know [TS]

  mediocrity box and face ID could be a [TS]

  great answer because like you know you [TS]

  know it's gonna cost more because it's [TS]

  gonna be an Apple display so like if [TS]

  Apple's gonna sell it you know if LG's [TS]

  still selling there is you know soon as [TS]

  thinking that next summer let's see the [TS]

  LG 5k display next summer as a thousand [TS]

  bucks I think at best it's gonna be [TS]

  maybe 900 but it's robably gonna be [TS]

  about a thousand bucks next summer Apple [TS]

  comes out it lets say their displays 5k [TS]

  it's probably gonna be at least fifteen [TS]

  hundred bucks [TS]

  so what what can they do to help justify [TS]

  that cost you know if LG's is gonna be a [TS]

  thousand now Apple's not gonna be a [TS]

  thousand so one of the ways they can one [TS]

  of the things they could do that no one [TS]

  else can do is face ID they can build [TS]

  that in like that would be an incredible [TS]

  selling point that would make pretty [TS]

  much everyone at at the high-end choose [TS]

  that display over some other thing from [TS]

  somebody else so that's the one they can [TS]

  do it we don't know until like you know [TS]

  something like until we get actual [TS]

  information and hopefully actual product [TS]

  releases from the Mac Pro and this pro [TS]

  display there are so many unanswered [TS]

  questions that make it very hard to [TS]

  contextualize the iMac Pro and to decide [TS]

  whether to buy the iMac Pro or the other [TS]

  things so you said you'll be buying 13 [TS]

  iMac pros well thanks to our sponsors [TS]

  this week betterment hover and away and [TS]

  we will see you next week [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  I'm pressing the spacebar [TS]

  [Applause] [TS]

  this computer is about a year old and it [TS]

  was very expensive [TS]

  I have been waiting to upgrade for a [TS]

  long time [TS]

  well you're telling me very witty [TS]

  distances [TS]

  surgery for a speck of dust largely the [TS]

  butterfly I found your instructions they [TS]

  were not helpful [TS]

  I bought this can of air I feel like an [TS]

  idiot [TS]

  coz I'm pressing the spacebar [TS]

  I'm Priscilla's baseball I am guys in [TS]

  the space bar I'm pressing the space bar [TS]

  [Applause] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  Facebook and [TS]

  is happening [TS]

  get me out of here [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so tell us what your little experiment [TS]

  was last week with the show not with you [TS]

  yeah this didn't go so well so um [TS]

  longtime listeners will remember that I [TS]

  base I had a bee in my bonnet this case [TS]

  you would probably say about I I was [TS]

  upset that Apple's mp3 decoding library [TS]

  did not properly seek VBR mp3s and that [TS]

  podcast could be way better if they [TS]

  could be VBR mp3s because variable [TS]

  bitrate means that you can for instance [TS]

  the silences between all of our words [TS]

  that overcast is hopefully shortening [TS]

  for you for you know 70% of you these [TS]

  silences between all of our words can [TS]

  use very few bits because there isn't [TS]

  much information there the words can use [TS]

  a decent amount of bits but not a [TS]

  massive amount cuz they don't need that [TS]

  much and then the theme song the place [TS]

  between the after show and the regular [TS]

  show can use like music bit rates and [TS]

  all of that could be done a total file [TS]

  size of not that much compared to a [TS]

  constant bitrate mediocre quality file [TS]

  just because different parts of the file [TS]

  need different things and some of them [TS]

  need more and some need less so it makes [TS]

  sense to encode with a variable bitrate [TS]

  but the problem is if things that don't [TS]

  properly support variable bitrate [TS]

  they they basically read the file as if [TS]

  it's either the average bitrate of like [TS]

  the file size divided by the duration or [TS]

  they or they read the very first mp3 [TS]

  frames with the first few milliseconds [TS]

  of the file and they assume that the [TS]

  whole file is whatever bitrate that [TS]

  first frame is and so this causes a [TS]

  couple of problems oh and also the waste [TS]

  the way some of them would calculate [TS]

  duration is they would read that first [TS]

  frame see what the bitrate is look at [TS]

  the file size and just divide it and say [TS]

  alright well if the first frame is you [TS]

  know 32 kilobits and this is a hundred [TS]

  mega file and this is gonna be like what [TS]

  would that be like a five hour long file [TS]

  isn't like that the mp3 standard is very [TS]

  old it doesn't provide a lot of a lot of [TS]

  niceties in this regard so you know that [TS]

  there's been some bad implementations [TS]

  over the years however VBR encoding has [TS]

  been around [TS]

  since literally the late 90s so this is [TS]

  not a new thing to do and it's extremely [TS]

  common for music files to BVB are [TS]

  encoded because it's it's a way to [TS]

  achieve very good quality without [TS]

  obscene file sizes so this has been [TS]

  around for literally 20 years [TS]

  not everything supports it properly the [TS]

  main problem that you see when it's not [TS]

  supported properly is either the [TS]

  duration is misreported because of what [TS]

  I said earlier or seeking doesn't work [TS]

  properly in the sense that you seek to a [TS]

  timestamp and as far as the player is [TS]

  concerned it is playing at that time [TS]

  stamp but the content that you are [TS]

  hearing is not the content that's [TS]

  actually at the times of your hearing [TS]

  the wrong thing for the time if you seek [TS]

  because the dumb way to seek is if you [TS]

  know the file size and the duration you [TS]

  can say alright well if the user seek to [TS]

  the 50% point in time in the duration [TS]

  seek to the 50% byte in the file and [TS]

  then just start playing from there with [TS]

  a VBR file though you don't actually [TS]

  know that the 50% of the bytes through [TS]

  matches up to 50% of the time through [TS]

  because the distribution of different [TS]

  bit rates could be different at [TS]

  different parts of the podcast so when [TS]

  something does is if we're doesn't [TS]

  support PVR properly you have that issue [TS]

  we're seeking to a timestamp does not [TS]

  actually play the correct timestamp well [TS]

  we started getting a lot of reports from [TS]

  people on Android mostly this past this [TS]

  past week when I released the show [TS]

  saying hey your chapter markers are all [TS]

  messed up and seek to the wrong [TS]

  timestamps in you know insert name of [TS]

  android podcast player it wasn't too [TS]

  long before somebody I think John [TS]

  probably asked did you by any chance [TS]

  encode the show and VBR [TS]

  this week and the answer was yes I I did [TS]

  I so Apple added VBR seeking support [TS]

  finally in in iOS 11 and our High Sierra [TS]

  and now that iOS 11 and has over 50% [TS]

  market share and nobody listened to the [TS]

  podcast in the Mac sorry Casey [TS]

  so I figured this would be a safe time [TS]

  for me to try VBR to just see like how [TS]

  many problems you know are we gonna hear [TS]

  from anybody whose problems there was no [TS]

  one gonna really notice or care because [TS]

  most of our listeners are on iOS [TS]

  I bet a vast majority of them upgrade to [TS]

  the new OS fairly soon and since the [TS]

  global share of iOS 11 was over over 50% [TS]

  I figured you know that's that's pretty [TS]

  good and I knew it worked fine on an [TS]

  overcast and or any other iOS app that [TS]

  used the built-in iOS libraries I [TS]

  figured Android as nerdy surely they [TS]

  figured out a 20 year old mp3 standard [TS]

  by now turns out that was wrong it turns [TS]

  out that III don't know the the great [TS]

  details on how mp3 decoding is done in [TS]

  android how many different libraries [TS]

  there are to do it what versions are out [TS]

  there because I don't know any about [TS]

  Android but suffice to say most of [TS]

  Android or all of Android in practice [TS]

  does not support VBR seeking of mp3s and [TS]

  therefore or at least the libraries that [TS]

  podcast makers use I honestly again I [TS]

  don't know the details of all this short [TS]

  version is they aren't supported so all [TS]

  of our Android listeners started [TS]

  bothering us and the app makers who make [TS]

  Android podcast apps some books are very [TS]

  mad at me right now it was causing [TS]

  enough problems that I was convinced to [TS]

  put a CBR file back a big constant [TS]

  bitrate file backup and that this was [TS]

  not a good test after all the failure [TS]

  rate was simply too high so about a day [TS]

  after release I switched the file out [TS]

  for a regular bit rate lower quality [TS]

  larger file it turns out this was a [TS]

  failed experiment for VBR last week I [TS]

  don't know when I will try it again I [TS]

  think what this has shown me is that [TS]

  basically androids not ready you know [TS]

  iOS just got ready Android is not ready [TS]

  and because of the nature of Android [TS]

  it's probably gonna be a long time [TS]

  before before podcast makers can safely [TS]

  ship VBR files without causing problem [TS]

  for people so I'm guessing I'm probably [TS]

  not gonna do VBR again for a very long [TS]

  time possibly if ever because the other [TS]

  thing is if I can for instance serve [TS]

  different files to different clients [TS]

  like right now there's not a lot of [TS]

  infrastructure in place for that it [TS]

  things like our hosting and our website [TS]

  and things like that but you know if if [TS]

  I were to go through the complexity [TS]

  rabbit hole of adding something like [TS]

  that where I could serve different files [TS]

  to different clients then I probably [TS]

  should stop using mp3 altogether for [TS]

  like the good one and I should start [TS]

  making like an opus file because opus is [TS]

  a way better codec [TS]

  than mp3 and I could get awesome quality [TS]

  with VBR naturally in something like a [TS]

  third of the file size so I don't know [TS]

  if I'm ever going to actually be able to [TS]

  practically use VBR mp3s as a podcast [TS]

  again but at least now that Apple [TS]

  supports it in their libraries which [TS]

  means now that every iOS app will now [TS]

  support it and at least there's a chance [TS]

  and I hope I can do it in the future but [TS]

  it's probably gonna be a long way off if [TS]

  ever you should serve up the show as a [TS]

  HEV C video but with no video if I has [TS]

  all the features that you want from its [TS]

  audio stream is variable bitrate and [TS]

  chapter markers most often it may be it [TS]

  may turn out to be playable on more [TS]

  platforms sooner than variable bitrate [TS]

  and easier because it's not like VBR mp3 [TS]

  is the new standard we're waiting for [TS]

  people to catch up as you noted is 20 [TS]

  years old so if they haven't done an [TS]

  a-lister motivation where as all of the [TS]

  HEV C and all those new containers is a [TS]

  new format and I think most platforms [TS]

  will adopt that so people can watch 4k [TS]

  video or whatever on it although there's [TS]

  what is the competing one was the Google [TS]

  one that they like said vp9 via one of [TS]

  the VP's yeah well anyway you still [TS]

  probably serve two different frostings [TS]

  anyway next time just you know do the [TS]

  experiment and top four is all I'm [TS]

  saying I can't hear about pumpkin spice [TS]

  food I'm so angry they'll get over it [TS]

  they'll be fine Wow important is hearing [TS]

  us complain for the umpteenth time about [TS]

  the MacBook Pro keyboard in the Mac Pro [TS]

  I mean that's a good priority straight [TS]

  although I have to say seeing the [TS]

  picture of all that food that you bought [TS]

  like I try not to do the math like I [TS]

  feel like you were running the show at a [TS]

  loss based on how many hundreds of [TS]

  dollars worth of crap food you buy fresh [TS]

  episode and then you know give away or [TS]

  throw away it's just doesn't seem to [TS]

  make economic sense and he's giving you [TS]

  tummy aches yeah fortunately pumpkin [TS]

  spiced garbage food from discount retail [TS]

  stores is not very expensive but yeah [TS]

  that definitely was pros a lot of food [TS]

  yeah well it's big boxes I mean you know [TS]

  it's like it's crap food there's not a [TS]

  lot of in there it's not did you try it [TS]

  all other than the ones that you were [TS]

  too afraid to like did you actually open [TS]

  every box in consider because oh yes yet [TS]

  like there were a few that we cut from [TS]

  this show like the like there was a [TS]

  backup popcorn like there were a few [TS]

  that we cut just because like it wasn't [TS]

  interesting I'm like we I mean we [TS]

  recorded something like an hour and 45 [TS]

  minutes and we ran out of time like the [TS]

  first session we had to fit in the [TS]

  school day because we didn't do during [TS]

  the day and like it was time to go pick [TS]

  up at him at the bus we had to stop like [TS]

  it was like it we had way too much fun [TS]

  so yeah that was there was a lot of [TS]

  editing there we'll put a link in the [TS]

  show notes this is one of Markos other [TS]

  podcasts and it's very different from [TS]

  ATP and it's a lot of fun and if you're [TS]

  interested in it you'll be able to link [TS]

  to it this is in this episode they [TS]

  tasted a bunch of pumpkin spice food I [TS]

  don't know why it's what they do and [TS]

  then the permit the premises of the show [TS]

  is that they rank them but it's a farce [TS]

  so anyway check out the show number two [TS]

  I have 45 honorable mentions just once [TS]

  they get into the for that they can't [TS]

  actually pick for Margot Margot had a [TS]

  new twist this time because it was like [TS]

  this would be my number two except it's [TS]

  not my number two because I'm weird [TS]

  about things so he had an alternate [TS]

  number two and three after he'd gotten [TS]

  up to his number one and he'd done the [TS]

  other ones and he's saying this would [TS]

  actually be my number two but and there [TS]

  was some kind of explanation that made [TS]

  sense in his mind but it didn't actually [TS]

  make any sense of as to why his number [TS]

  two was not even in the top four yeah [TS]

  that's really mind-boggling it made [TS]

  sense in my head he had already had lots [TS]

  of pumpkin beer at that point so we [TS]

  don't really know not know I not [TS]

  honestly I had like three sips of [TS]

  pumpkin beer because one of them I [TS]

  didn't like very much the other one I [TS]

  didn't have time to drink so it was I [TS]

  was I was high on pumpkin spice donuts [TS]

  and cream cheese and all sorts of weird [TS]

  sky like the pumpkin spice donut holes [TS]

  it barely had any flavor it's like you [TS]

  were munching on those anyways like you [TS]

  know what Donuts not they're not pumpkin [TS]

  spicy they don't even make marble [TS]

  mansions but doughnuts you can have [TS]

  doughnut holes in pretty much any flavor [TS]

  and they're gonna be amazing and you're [TS]

  gonna want more of them they're so small [TS]

  yes but barely barely count they feel [TS]

  free [TS]

  so we're missing on this show we don't [TS]

  get snacks the hell I know right [TS]

  you got toasters for a while yeah but I [TS]

  had to supply my own food and it was [TS]

  like toast I didn't have any pumpkin [TS]

  butter to put on it [TS]