Roderick on the Line

Ep. 265: "Cisesthesia"

 

  [Music] [TS]

  hello hi John I'm Merlin how's it going [TS]

  oh pretty good we should make an accent [TS]

  and stick to it [TS]

  okay nothing like lips no it's not I [TS]

  feel overwhelmed yeah you're doing lots [TS]

  of things right well but it's just the [TS]

  hecticness more than anything I mean you [TS]

  know I feel yeah I feel like I'm doing [TS]

  stuff but I'm also just like come on [TS]

  poof [TS]

  ain't it does not be doing something for [TS]

  a while I need a vacation but like just [TS]

  like if if I do just the stuff that I [TS]

  have to do for my quote unquote job it's [TS]

  it's more there's more to it then one [TS]

  would realize mm-hmm now this is just [TS]

  asking for pity or something but like [TS]

  you know it takes time to you make the [TS]

  show you just do the show art no I don't [TS]

  I don't expect you to and it's a nice [TS]

  job I really like it [TS]

  that's not all with that all stacks up [TS]

  in and an you account for brushing hair [TS]

  and getting to school finishing the [TS]

  poster and things like that [TS]

  but then you get stuff for you got to [TS]

  reschedule things and you get a holiday [TS]

  oh boy you know damn Benjamin hates [TS]

  holidays is that right [TS]

  you never heard talk about that no I [TS]

  don't let him talk no that's probably [TS]

  good but you know it's uh you know it's [TS]

  a it's a good kind of hectic I suppose [TS]

  uh he doesn't like holidays how do you [TS]

  feel about holidays Travis voice for [TS]

  that one I feel like my feeling there's [TS]

  somehow okay so first of all my feelings [TS]

  about a given holiday are very very [TS]

  different it's almost a form of [TS]

  synesthesia or like there's some people [TS]

  who can like smell colors or like when [TS]

  they when they hear a note it makes them [TS]

  think of a word or something like that [TS]

  I taste taste you know how you have a [TS]

  shape of the year right right you do [TS]

  taste taste that's the kind of that's [TS]

  kind of sis especia [TS]

  Jesus fuck oh my coffee is still going [TS]

  straight you hear that bubbling that's [TS]

  my coffee [TS]

  oh right when you said I need to make [TS]

  coffee I pictured you using a coffee pot [TS]

  but I'm sure you're using some sort of [TS]

  like like moonshine still yes yeah I do [TS]

  use am I have a V I'm like a monster I'm [TS]

  an animal I just have a little little [TS]

  coffee filter plastic coffee filter [TS]

  holder right right it's what it's what [TS]

  some people call poor over I would call [TS]

  it making coffee yeah I mean it's also [TS]

  strange [TS]

  stiva so you were finishing of the year [TS]

  yeah people who listen the program have [TS]

  drawn this it's a difficult thought [TS]

  technology to turn into an artifact but [TS]

  but I have had a similar feeling that a [TS]

  year as a shape to it yeah and I think [TS]

  that it's somewhat related to how I feel [TS]

  about holidays where I have mostly dread [TS]

  about holidays but sometimes I'm excited [TS]

  about it I end up liking Christmas a [TS]

  little bit toward the end but I think [TS]

  Dan's beef is disrupt his work schedule [TS]

  oh but but just kind of my beef a little [TS]

  bit too but yeah you know but it's fun I [TS]

  mean like when you got a kid my age [TS]

  little trips are fun like we'll go [TS]

  somewhere for a couple days it's not [TS]

  like a vacation but should go visit [TS]

  somebody for a couple days and that's [TS]

  actually usually pretty fun she has a [TS]

  capability for joy and she's not totally [TS]

  terrible yet so it's it's a nice I want [TS]

  to really like you know like some people [TS]

  like to sniff a baby's head like I just [TS]

  want to really soak in this period cuz [TS]

  she's gonna hate us so soon no child is [TS]

  different that's what they say that's [TS]

  what they say now whenever whenever I [TS]

  meet somebody that has a teenager I'm [TS]

  always like so is it pretty bad like [TS]

  give me the lowdown right and it's [TS]

  surprising the number of people that say [TS]

  you know what it's not they're you know [TS]

  they're great and I'm like come on come [TS]

  on don't be you know don't be a hero [TS]

  yeah don't be a fool with your life it [TS]

  feels like it's got to be a very [TS]

  challenging letdown [TS]

  yeah also some kids are terrible that's [TS]

  the end of this you [TS]

  yes I mean you know I haven't been [TS]

  around your daughter lately but in both [TS]

  of our cases what at worse their [TS]

  precocious a little precocious [TS]

  precocious no fires being set it's not [TS]

  like we have a boy even boys much oh [TS]

  yeah because I see must see it at school [TS]

  I go to her school and I interact with [TS]

  the kids there yeah so I see them I see [TS]

  them beep boys there's a little boy that [TS]

  that that Marlo kind of counts as one of [TS]

  she doesn't count him as one of the [TS]

  girls but she counts him as one of the [TS]

  people who isn't a monster yeah yeah and [TS]

  and what's funny is that the first time [TS]

  I ever saw this kid I was like oh I like [TS]

  him what's his story you know like I [TS]

  really do engage with him the rest of [TS]

  the little boys are yeah they're awful a [TS]

  child will find a stick and hit a [TS]

  building with it until they're stopped [TS]

  they just hit the building and or it [TS]

  could just be they they find something [TS]

  sharp and just throw it in the air for [TS]

  45 minutes yeah and then they make that [TS]

  kind of a game and they tear one [TS]

  another's clothes and I don't know I [TS]

  I've come around a little bit on the [TS]

  idea of boys but when like in the [TS]

  preschool and into like the beginning of [TS]

  elementary school the the girls were so [TS]

  interested so much more interested in [TS]

  like social things if they're interested [TS]

  in anything it was like you know how [TS]

  people interact and the little boys were [TS]

  just setting things on fire and turning [TS]

  desks over yeah it's true although now [TS]

  in first grade her stories about her [TS]

  little girlfriends are all about every [TS]

  day the Alliance is chained every day so [TS]

  someone is now like won't play with her [TS]

  and trying to exclude her from games and [TS]

  the next the next day it's like oh no [TS]

  we're friends now and it's this other [TS]

  girl that's trying to trying to keep me [TS]

  out and and and I would listen to her [TS]

  stories and say like let me try and put [TS]

  myself in this situation and you know [TS]

  because I own that the I know there's [TS]

  some Nair [TS]

  raishin bias right always when you're [TS]

  listening to somebody talks you kind of [TS]

  have to try and figure where you know [TS]

  some people have very little bias [TS]

  towards themselves in their own [TS]

  narrative and also the communication [TS]

  skills are weird it's hard to know what [TS]

  actually happened to what didn't happen [TS]

  what you imagined happen what you heard [TS]

  happened it's like it was like reading a [TS]

  William Faulkner novel and particularly [TS]

  like as as we say like she's precocious [TS]

  so I'm trying to picture a situation [TS]

  where she would be excluded that way and [TS]

  now I know the people she's talking [TS]

  about I know the other kids so I'm like [TS]

  hmm okay I can see that from this person [TS]

  that just seems like they have a [TS]

  devilish grin about things and they're [TS]

  but that you know but these other kids [TS]

  seem so incapable of that but then when [TS]

  I when I get when I really get down in [TS]

  the dirt with them yeah it's a constant [TS]

  process of like okay I'm the daughter [TS]

  and you're the dog and there's no [TS]

  there's no mom in this story so I guess [TS]

  you can't play and it's like right why [TS]

  is there no mom the mom died does it [TS]

  need to be this story yeah no but that's [TS]

  but you're also getting at something [TS]

  that like one of the painful early [TS]

  things I mean obviously there are things [TS]

  like there's occasionally hitting or [TS]

  whatever and stuff like that but the one [TS]

  that's painful slow motion ride is you [TS]

  start watching kids discover the power [TS]

  of exclusion and other Ness and I not to [TS]

  get all like you know namby-pamby but [TS]

  like that's kind of how I am but like [TS]

  you see it pretty early on we're like [TS]

  the most natural formation you get as a [TS]

  dyad you get like oh you find somebody [TS]

  that you can hang out with and like you [TS]

  get along and like she has one friend at [TS]

  school like they both like Netflix [TS]

  that's that's that's why they're friends [TS]

  and that's the kind of thing that [TS]

  happens and then that can maybe turn [TS]

  into a triad well you've got three [TS]

  people who are into thinking they're [TS]

  kind of friends but that now you've [TS]

  introduced this weird balance and now [TS]

  you get an out-group and now you get [TS]

  somebody who's stinky today or whatever [TS]

  and somebody who like that's hard that's [TS]

  hard to watch well and I think I think [TS]

  my experience as a kid is that [TS]

  precociousness is [TS]

  is hard for other kids to incorporate [TS]

  and there are there were always kids in [TS]

  my school who were kind of friends with [TS]

  everybody and it's because their [TS]

  personality like code didn't have [TS]

  trouble kind of fitting in and it wasn't [TS]

  that they it wasn't that they were [TS]

  conformist it was that they were [TS]

  good-natured they didn't talk too much [TS]

  they didn't but they didn't talk too [TS]

  little they were physically capable [TS]

  enough that they could play every game [TS]

  and they didn't have like store they [TS]

  didn't have strong opinions or a strong [TS]

  need to be right or a strong like not [TS]

  ego assertive yeah not a sense of like a [TS]

  like an invalid sense of justice they [TS]

  were they were just kind of easy to [TS]

  incorporate and then there were kids and [TS]

  I was one who had too much just [TS]

  something going on and sometimes I was [TS]

  at the center of a game but a lot of [TS]

  times it was like I just priced myself [TS]

  out of interactions with some kids [TS]

  because I couldn't I couldn't tone it [TS]

  down I think I was the same way I mean I [TS]

  would did I I knew how to be funny but I [TS]

  don't think I have particularly good [TS]

  social skills I don't think in the sense [TS]

  that I don't like my daughter has [TS]

  friends even more she's acquaintances [TS]

  who are like like you who is this child [TS]

  especially some of these little girls [TS]

  who are like very calm and they listen [TS]

  and they have converse not not listen as [TS]

  in like yes sir but listen as in hmm you [TS]

  make internet radio why do you need an [TS]

  office for that and I'm like oh that's [TS]

  really a good question that's like what [TS]

  do you do why are you doing that on a [TS]

  Sunday [TS]

  oh well it's that's actually a really [TS]

  good question and they look at you in [TS]

  those turn their head and further brow a [TS]

  little bit like yeah they're they [TS]

  actually want to know why I need an [TS]

  office to make a radio show and I don't [TS]

  really have a good answer for them in [TS]

  that case you know nester tonight see if [TS]

  you ever do this do you do you ever god [TS]

  I hate this in myself do you find [TS]

  yourself lobbying for friendships when [TS]

  you can't work for my own friendships or [TS]

  pick my kid up from aftercare where [TS]

  there's a lot of cool kids and it's kids [TS]

  who aren't in her class but you know in [TS]

  her grade or maybe a great younger and [TS]

  okay you know whoever I'll go you know [TS]

  Wow [TS]

  Wireless seems really cool like what's [TS]

  oh yeah oh you know she's Muslim she's [TS]

  mostly nice I don't talk to her very [TS]

  much like wow she's really cool [TS]

  she does lie about Wolverine if you talk [TS]

  to her she's really my daughter in her [TS]

  class now her class I'm pretty sure [TS]

  teaches a socialist it's super [TS]

  interesting the way she runs the class [TS]

  is very interesting and one other thing [TS]

  one of things they do is they rearrange [TS]

  the tables like somewhat randomly like [TS]

  once a month zero sitting with different [TS]

  people frequently and she deliberately [TS]

  tries to mix it up so yes she doesn't [TS]

  arrange them for each according to their [TS]

  need and and there's the brown table you [TS]

  know you can guess who sits there no but [TS]

  like you know she's like my daughter now [TS]

  identifies this she's at the nice girls [TS]

  table and they have an alliance with the [TS]

  funny boys table over here alliances [TS]

  like that but have you ever done that I [TS]

  find myself lobbying and then I'll keep [TS]

  coming back and I'll go man that Lila is [TS]

  a sharp kid you see her keep that round [TS]

  off that was pretty great you should you [TS]

  know play with Lila uh-uh [TS]

  Nino yeah is Nino is is a small girl [TS]

  that's a sweet name I like that he's [TS]

  beautiful name and I adore her she's got [TS]

  so much personality and she is so like [TS]

  there was a there was a girl at her at [TS]

  my daughter's old school who I also [TS]

  adored but who was visibly a she was [TS]

  visibly trying to undermine other kids [TS]

  and social situation she would pit kids [TS]

  against each other at four years old she [TS]

  would go into situations and just be [TS]

  like I'm friends with you and not with [TS]

  you and then she would go to the other [TS]

  person and say I'm friends with you and [TS]

  not with you mine has a friend friend [TS]

  like that she's playing an ongoing game [TS]

  of diplomacy behind everybody's back it [TS]

  was crazy and I'm you know I'm a [TS]

  grown-up and just by virtue of the fact [TS]

  that I'm that I'm tall I can hear the [TS]

  distance between that group and this [TS]

  group was only 15 feet I just stood in [TS]

  the [TS]

  I could hear her on both sides and I'd [TS]

  be like young lady and she would kind of [TS]

  look up at me with this knowing look of [TS]

  like MA ha ha ha ha [TS]

  so I was a little terrified of her now [TS]

  she's grown she's grown up and has [TS]

  become like a like a gentle child I [TS]

  don't know what she went through [TS]

  yeah the weird thing they change and one [TS]

  year you get one kid who's the crazy kid [TS]

  who I guess since the office in the next [TS]

  year they're like oh she's in theater [TS]

  now she's doing really great yeah she's [TS]

  great but Nino is a constant bugbear for [TS]

  my daughter and and it's always a [TS]

  situation where she's doing something [TS]

  she's doing something and she's trying [TS]

  to you know boss or she's trying to this [TS]

  or that or this or that and I'm always [TS]

  saying like but she seems so nice I know [TS]

  and I get all this pushback and I know [TS]

  she's not nice maybe Nino needs a friend [TS]

  honey maybe you should hang out with her [TS]

  so the thing I know about my kid is that [TS]

  she is she has a very very big she takes [TS]

  up a lot of space right and she doesn't [TS]

  she needs a little bit of coaching to [TS]

  incorporate other people's narratives [TS]

  into her very very large and [TS]

  well-developed narrative about whatever [TS]

  and I think you know just doesn't take [TS]

  it [TS]

  I think Nino just doesn't roll over okay [TS]

  and pushes back yeah cuz you know it's [TS]

  socially successful I watch her in the [TS]

  school and people love her and she and I [TS]

  think she and I think they're just at [TS]

  loggerheads about like just simple [TS]

  really simple shit who's deciding what [TS]

  the story is right and so I'm always [TS]

  trying to make this treaty and and the [TS]

  thing about Nino is she likes me so I'm [TS]

  you know so she runs up to me and says [TS]

  hi and we have our little interaction [TS]

  and it's not like you know like I don't [TS]

  watch my kids sit and fume about it she [TS]

  doesn't care but but she doesn't want to [TS]

  invite her to birthday parties like it's [TS]

  very calm that's so interesting we get [TS]

  the same thing here we're like and III [TS]

  idiotic Lea try [TS]

  and drill down a little bit like now I [TS]

  sound like some kind of social worker [TS]

  because I was like oh did did something [TS]

  something happened did they did somebody [TS]

  like her you just like no no it's like [TS]

  you know I don't know what kind of [TS]

  monster I'm gonna create with these [TS]

  kinds of like these sessions that I do [TS]

  can you point to the doll show exclude [TS]

  your narrative where she wouldn't let [TS]

  you be the puppy sometimes you can't be [TS]

  the puppy but you know I think about [TS]

  when I was a little kid and we mainly [TS]

  played media like like I've told you [TS]

  before we played SWAT we played tora [TS]

  tora tora the three-hour Japanese Pearl [TS]

  Harbor movie and we played these things [TS]

  and everybody had these certain things [TS]

  that they liked to do sort of like you [TS]

  wanted to be the English guy with the [TS]

  briefcase full of bombs right [TS]

  everybody's got this role that they want [TS]

  to play and it seems like a big part of [TS]

  that play becomes negotiation about I [TS]

  guess this is obvious but a lot of it [TS]

  becomes negotiation about what it is [TS]

  that we're playing right now what the [TS]

  what the frame and the rules and the [TS]

  tone of what we're doing is I think [TS]

  we've talked about this before but my [TS]

  mom had described that realization she [TS]

  had in the 1980s when she was on when [TS]

  she started to be on the board and she [TS]

  would go to these board meetings for [TS]

  school or for pipeline for the pipeline [TS]

  okay and you know the way the pipeline [TS]

  hierarchy was was that the president and [TS]

  the vice presidents came from the oil [TS]

  companies so they were never the [TS]

  president of Alyeska pipeline was never [TS]

  promoted from within it was always kind [TS]

  of a plum job that you got as you were [TS]

  working your way up in British Petroleum [TS]

  or Arco or you know one of the owner [TS]

  companies you would go and spend two [TS]

  years in Alaska being the president of [TS]

  the of the pipeline and then you would [TS]

  have done your time and then you would [TS]

  go to Scotland or something and [TS]

  eventually you'd work your ways so forth [TS]

  but up to the level of Vice President [TS]

  was all promoted within Alyeska and as [TS]

  my mom was climbing up that ladder and [TS]

  started to be in these rooms she [TS]

  realized about herself and I'm sure you [TS]

  and I have talked to [TS]

  that you she at the very beginning of a [TS]

  meeting would just kind of assert that [TS]

  she was gonna run this meeting and she [TS]

  would do that until she was either [TS]

  running the meeting or someone else had [TS]

  had thwarted her attempt to run the [TS]

  meeting mm-hmm at which point she would [TS]

  sit back in her chair and just try and [TS]

  shoot the guy that was running the [TS]

  meeting down and not not in a way that [TS]

  was you know that that she saw her role [TS]

  as either being running the meeting or [TS]

  being the gadfly she's gonna say keV I [TS]

  am yeah [TS]

  the one that was like uh hmm that's [TS]

  interesting well are you sure about that [TS]

  like not not to not to hurt that person [TS]

  but just that that was what she saw that [TS]

  was what she saw there was a need for [TS]

  right either that either this reason to [TS]

  take up space like she's there to be an [TS]

  active participant in driving this thing [TS]

  forward in a rational way right but [TS]

  never saw herself as a as a member of [TS]

  the of the team of six people that were [TS]

  going to take the information in and [TS]

  then vote on it at the end it was always [TS]

  she needed to be she needed to have this [TS]

  role and it was either to command or to [TS]

  challenge hmm not super interesting yeah [TS]

  and I feel like that is you know that's [TS]

  something baked into people too and and [TS]

  at least so far I don't see it in my kid [TS]

  she if someone says you're not in charge [TS]

  of this game you're the dog she's happy [TS]

  to be the dog but she's gonna really [TS]

  play that dog roll up in terms of how [TS]

  important the dog is to the family [TS]

  dynamic right it's I see if if she is if [TS]

  it's a game where there's a mom and a [TS]

  baby and a dog and she's the baby then [TS]

  the baby is going to be a loud baby [TS]

  and if she's the dog then it's gonna be [TS]

  they're gonna have a real handful of a [TS]

  dog on their hand you know what I mean [TS]

  like they're she's it's never gonna be a [TS]

  narrative where she's the like patient [TS]

  mom going [TS]

  oh come now soon oh hush hush baby just [TS]

  kinda like she's like Jim Belushi she's [TS]

  gonna play this she's chewing up the [TS]

  scene yeah but but it is it has affected [TS]

  my my understanding of being human for [TS]

  sure watching these little humans I mean [TS]

  in a way that you couldn't have he [TS]

  couldn't have known right you couldn't [TS]

  you couldn't have figured it out by [TS]

  watching yourself grow up [TS]

  it really takes watching someone else [TS]

  grow up to like contextualize a lot and [TS]

  it doesn't make my own childhood make [TS]

  any more sense to me but I do but it [TS]

  resonates in my adulthood somehow mm-hmm [TS]

  you know like we we've spent a lot of [TS]

  time going over our childhoods and I [TS]

  kind of came to you know okay a long [TS]

  time ago came to an understanding of [TS]

  what happened to me [TS]

  growing up but I just see all of my [TS]

  adult dynamics played out on the within [TS]

  these playground dynamics and it's like [TS]

  oh yeah it really is like people are [TS]

  people so why should it be that you know [TS]

  the other thing what this is that I mean [TS]

  I think we we've all had that experience [TS]

  where you're describing we've all have [TS]

  that experience of replaying something [TS]

  in our heads and going oh maybe that was [TS]

  different than I expected but like [TS]

  you're also fighting this problem of [TS]

  okay well what if you replayed that in [TS]

  your head when you were 19 and you [TS]

  thought you had it figured out like have [TS]

  you replayed that again since then [TS]

  because who knows what kind of filter [TS]

  you had on at that point I know this is [TS]

  not particularly insightful but like you [TS]

  know it is it is very strange for me [TS]

  it's like as much as I fight it and I [TS]

  totally middle-aged man I still find my [TS]

  own prejudice prejudices about people [TS]

  and their behavior [TS]

  things that I feel like are very much [TS]

  rooted in how I felt like I was treated [TS]

  as a kid played out where I will go like [TS]

  not to my daughter but I'll maybe even [TS]

  say to my wife like oh god what is her [TS]

  deal she says that girl seems like kind [TS]

  of a dick she seems real conniving she [TS]

  wants to exclude people and whatnot and [TS]

  then I'll actually spend some time with [TS]

  the kid and you know what they're a [TS]

  normal nine-year-old kid [TS]

  and I'm like where did you come up with [TS]

  that like what why did your mind have to [TS]

  go to someplace where you like you [TS]

  assume you know that you're bad [TS]

  filtering from the past has to be what's [TS]

  happening right now well except that [TS]

  there are lots of that you know there [TS]

  are a lot of people that seem like [TS]

  they're really nice and then it turns [TS]

  out they're not a lot of people in [TS]

  though they seem like they're not and [TS]

  turns out they are that week yeah this [TS]

  episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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  ahead of the curve with Casper and you [TS]

  get fifty dollars toward any mattress [TS]

  purchase by visiting Casper comm slash [TS]

  supertrain and using the promo code [TS]

  supertrain at checkout terms and [TS]

  conditions apply our thanks to Casper [TS]

  for supporting Roderick on the line and [TS]

  all the great shows but uh but yeah I [TS]

  had a had an interesting experience [TS]

  yesterday that I wanted to tell you [TS]

  about I would love to hear it people [TS]

  assume that we write a whole script for [TS]

  this or something but we a lot of what [TS]

  we end up doing for the program my [TS]

  internet radio show I do it my office it [TS]

  is largely improvised yeah why do you [TS]

  have an office to do it in the internet [TS]

  maybe I put all this shit my family [TS]

  doesn't want the house Oh everyone's [TS]

  like garbage I bring home more boxes of [TS]

  comics what about what about these [TS]

  statues of will perform what about your [TS]

  what about your Dead Eye the superhero [TS]

  girl what about all these bottles of [TS]

  kombucha from March like what's gonna [TS]

  happen with that bottles up come on I [TS]

  love tropicale yeah I I got a so you [TS]

  know sometimes one of the things that I [TS]

  do as he probably know now and and for [TS]

  always is that I I get asked to moderate [TS]

  things oh yeah you're a go-to emcee yeah [TS]

  and there's and that's the thing like [TS]

  what when I was in high school I looked [TS]

  around the school at the jobs that one [TS]

  could do at a school rolls that one [TS]

  could inhabit [TS]

  right that's right as a freshman I [TS]

  looked at my high school which you know [TS]

  the first day of freshman year my high [TS]

  school seemed like a big urban high [TS]

  school from not from the late 70s [TS]

  because it was the early 80s and [TS]

  Anchorage was five years behind [TS]

  so all those all the movies you've ever [TS]

  seen about a an American high school in [TS]

  1977 that's exactly what it felt like [TS]

  when I walked into freshman year were [TS]

  you aware at the time that the yellow [TS]

  behind I mean how how attune were you to [TS]

  like this isn't way people dress on [TS]

  Dukes of Hazzard or whatever no not [TS]

  really not that example that yeah and [TS]

  and and people I mean the world moved [TS]

  the world was starting to move pretty [TS]

  fast [TS]

  but like disco and punk rock we're both [TS]

  still pretty present culturally new [TS]

  things in nineteen eighty one and two in [TS]

  Anchorage and I know that they still [TS]

  were reverberating other places but it [TS]

  hadn't there wasn't that feeling of that [TS]

  that there was in the states that it was [TS]

  that things were over or ever over and [TS]

  it wasn't until MTV arrived which was in [TS]

  82 I guess was that right August of 81 [TS]

  but most people didn't get it for a [TS]

  while yeah we didn't get in till 82 [TS]

  that's when I got a em where we suddenly [TS]

  had access to things happening that fast [TS]

  we had you had like up-to-the-minute New [TS]

  York taste you know screen right right I [TS]

  mean like it's it's it's obviously the [TS]

  something that was way over covered at a [TS]

  certain point but it's easy to forget [TS]

  now how much like how likely were you to [TS]

  be exposed to the motels Adam in the [TS]

  ants and and captain sensible in Alaska [TS]

  in the absence of MTV zero yeah no [TS]

  chance of it at all and I feel like [TS]

  pretty much the same for Florida I [TS]

  wouldn't even know where to look to find [TS]

  maybe not the motels but to find like [TS]

  sort of odd stuff I didn't have the [TS]

  budget or the purview to find that stuff [TS]

  and then suddenly especially in the [TS]

  morning when they showed lots of weird [TS]

  videos you see the weirdest stuff yeah [TS]

  and what each each new thing that came [TS]

  on you were like okay is this what we're [TS]

  doing now like that's what that's what [TS]

  diva looks like hello but but my first [TS]

  day of freshman year like at that time [TS]

  all the football players the fashion was [TS]

  that they wore painters caps did this [TS]

  was this a thing that happened [TS]

  nationally painters caps with as I think [TS]

  I've told you the misspelled mascot of [TS]

  our team on the back in Cooper black [TS]

  technically green but cooper black [TS]

  typeface yeah the boutonnieres the the [TS]

  gulf hi busan here is we have painters [TS]

  caps in nantes 82 82 83 as a [TS]

  razor so yeah that was a thing I guess [TS]

  and and it was a thing that felt I mean [TS]

  they felt very old they felt very adult [TS]

  they were very large much larger the the [TS]

  seniors of course than the freshman in a [TS]

  bubbly larger and probably larger our [TS]

  school had 2700 kids and spread oh and [TS]

  it was a one story 1962 high school that [TS]

  spread over what felt like 40 acres and [TS]

  walking in the front door I mean I've [TS]

  been I've been forewarned by kids like [TS]

  if you walk across the Thunderbird that [TS]

  is inlaid into the hallway if you walk [TS]

  across it and a senior catches you they [TS]

  will make you scrub it with a toothbrush [TS]

  and I and every incoming freshman was [TS]

  like Mortimer terrified don't walk [TS]

  across the the mosaic of the t-bird our [TS]

  noble mascot is a Thunderbird the the [TS]

  appropriated Native American and not not [TS]

  not really even from our state or the [TS]

  local cultures but appropriated from the [TS]

  distant Native American culture [TS]

  Utah Jazz but but but at the time it [TS]

  seemed plausible that that schools were [TS]

  far enough out of the of the [TS]

  Disciplinary reach of grown-ups that [TS]

  senior classmen could could be that much [TS]

  in control of the school and of the [TS]

  space that you would be getting swirlies [TS]

  or scrubbing the scrubbing the floor [TS]

  with a toothbrush and the adults would [TS]

  be standing in the background with their [TS]

  arms crossed nodding approvingly yeah [TS]

  but my goodness what [TS]

  I have no idea what I was talking about [TS]

  oh you were talking about what it's like [TS]

  to be it's okay no no space it's a it's [TS]

  what it was like to be in Alaska at a [TS]

  time when you were running feel like you [TS]

  know the whole place is running a little [TS]

  bit behind [TS]

  painters caps you get the Thunderbird [TS]

  but I started talking about it because I [TS]

  had a because I had another idea Oh [TS]

  Merlin this never happens to me I'm not [TS]

  kidding am I like going old you can't [TS]

  tell yet you don't know that's the [TS]

  problem no yeah no I'm just starting to [TS]

  like have it and realize it you know [TS]

  yeah you know that I like I always make [TS]

  it back yeah I make a digression I go [TS]

  out into the woods I wander around but I [TS]

  always come back no you do you you land [TS]

  it you really land it but what happened [TS]

  here should you some exercises have a [TS]

  stroke is that what it feels like most [TS]

  it feels like nothing it feels like [TS]

  you're just talking and then you just [TS]

  don't remember you might have had an [TS]

  episode [TS]

  what kind of episode you'd have to get [TS]

  an EKG I think I mean it's not like [TS]

  anything blurred listen we're gonna [TS]

  we're gonna get this we're gonna get [TS]

  this like it let's take a minute and [TS]

  pause and let's hear it from our sponsor [TS]

  this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

  brought to you by hellofresh you can [TS]

  learn more about hellofresh right now by [TS]

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  mate specifically with the pacifically [TS]

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  friend made us amazing a chili from [TS]

  hellofresh I had it the next day and it [TS]

  was like the best leftovers o-o ever it [TS]

  was so good and she wanted me to share [TS]

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  our thanks to hellofresh for sporting [TS]

  roderick on the line and all the great [TS]

  shows all right okay so here's what [TS]

  we're gonna do let's let's do an [TS]

  exercise here we're gonna do this nice [TS]

  and easy alright alright so the [TS]

  triggering thought was we're talking [TS]

  about children we're talking about your [TS]

  mom we started talking about the [TS]

  situations where some people are able to [TS]

  socialize with others you started [TS]

  talking about how when you started high [TS]

  school in the early 1980s you felt like [TS]

  things were actually more like a like a [TS]

  mid 70s things like punk rock things [TS]

  like disco [TS]

  right we're still very current at the [TS]

  time you can look to things like the [TS]

  introduction of MTV to your area in 1982 [TS]

  you've got seniors wearing painters caps [TS]

  yes seniors were wearing painters yeah [TS]

  if you step on the t-bird they're gonna [TS]

  make you take a toothbrush remember all [TS]

  this clean that was a very good story [TS]

  but I was I was jumping off into it [TS]

  because something recently happened that [TS]

  I wanted to tell you about mm-hmm I [TS]

  wanted to show you about and you said [TS]

  you said that we didn't see each other [TS]

  all the time that what was in the show [TS]

  was in the show the week that we look [TS]

  that we largely improvised the show yes [TS]

  which I you know I thought was important [TS]

  for for everyone to know because because [TS]

  you know they think we do work from a [TS]

  script yes obviously it's a set of beats [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  well I'm just gonna I'm gonna pretend [TS]

  that that segue over into high school in [TS]

  the 70s never happened until I can [TS]

  figure out how to tie back in if you [TS]

  want I need to add it in a couple ads [TS]

  this weekend would you like me to add [TS]

  some kind of a sound a zinger right here [TS]

  that allow us to reboot the episode like [TS]

  a like a how's it going John hey hi [TS]

  Merlin [TS]

  how are you are we starting over from [TS]

  the start [TS]

  no no Oh see now now I gotta I gotta add [TS]

  another noise now all right [TS]

  I don't know if I can find that no no [TS]

  it's fine Oh people are people are [TS]

  terrible and it's sometimes hard to know [TS]

  when you're the terrible person I'm oh I [TS]

  assume that I'm always the terrible do [TS]

  you really cuz I mean like the thing is [TS]

  it's like and this kind of gets to my [TS]

  point about the changing your filter [TS]

  feel free to jump back in at any point [TS]

  but this is what a part of my point with [TS]

  the filter is that I feel like I have [TS]

  probably sanded off papered over and [TS]

  buttered across many many things in my [TS]

  past as because reasons you know what I [TS]

  mean we're like I thought everybody [TS]

  treated me this way because Beauty boot [TS]

  boot boot and I don't know sometimes I [TS]

  am reluctant to go too far back to look [TS]

  at that again because it's very painful [TS]

  well you know my my passage through time [TS]

  personally I have never I've never felt [TS]

  any any strong need to cast myself as [TS]

  the victim of of situations of the world [TS]

  or of other people like I did I never [TS]

  felt victimized by anything other than [TS]

  massive structures right like I nobody I [TS]

  wasn't because I was enough of a problem [TS]

  from a young age that there was never a [TS]

  time when I didn't understand and it [TS]

  hadn't been imparted to me by everybody [TS]

  that I was kind of a problem and not [TS]

  always a bad problem did you take up [TS]

  that mantle at a certain point um what [TS]

  it did was it liberated me from it [TS]

  liberated me in a certain sense because [TS]

  there were because from a young age it [TS]

  wasn't like John Roderick you are a [TS]

  problem it was always from everybody Oh [TS]

  John you're such a problem like it was [TS]

  nice yeah it was very it was always [TS]

  wrapped in a warm fuzzy that that the [TS]

  word problem [TS]

  I heard ring in my ears as the word [TS]

  exceptional [TS]

  because that is not ready for you but [TS]

  that word was used to but but but that's [TS]

  how I heard it right so I never I I [TS]

  never felt like oh the reason this is [TS]

  because that or whatever that was [TS]

  whatever um whatever system was [TS]

  operating I recognized that who I was [TS]

  not my behavior but who I actually was [TS]

  was troubling or was it just wasn't ever [TS]

  gonna fit in and I think I took then [TS]

  responsibility for a lot of stuff that [TS]

  wasn't mine that I that I wasn't the bad [TS]

  guy but I just I accepted it because I [TS]

  already had such I had this big [TS]

  cardboard box full of all of the things [TS]

  that I was responsible for sure why not [TS]

  throw something you know like oh you've [TS]

  got some like pickled quail eggs in a [TS]

  jar short put them in my box I'm already [TS]

  carrying a box out and I think later on [TS]

  when I went back and looked at my [TS]

  childhood there I actually had to take [TS]

  some stuff out of the box and say you [TS]

  know what that wasn't my fault [TS]

  where that I couldn't have been [TS]

  responsible for that because that wasn't [TS]

  a thing that a kid could be responsible [TS]

  for that was a thing that adults should [TS]

  have been handling and I think I think [TS]

  when I'm angry at structures what that [TS]

  usually means is that there was some [TS]

  adult who was operating according to a [TS]

  structure that they hadn't examined and [TS]

  that adult was doing stuff that affected [TS]

  me or didn't protect me but I don't [TS]

  blame them I don't think their job I [TS]

  mean yeah the the the woman were more [TS]

  likely man who stood aside while [TS]

  somebody had to toothbrush the t-bird [TS]

  probably felt like not only were they [TS]

  doing their job but they were doing a [TS]

  good job of their job they were doing it [TS]

  I mean the the the vice-principal was [TS]

  that was crucial no this is long after [TS]

  Coupole this was you know in high school [TS]

  at that point whoever the vice principal [TS]

  was he didn't you don't know you know [TS]

  they want to kick at that but [TS]

  critic back you know what a cool feel of [TS]

  de couleur the tennis racket was weights [TS]

  on is that right and a cricket bat and a [TS]

  cricket bat okay you hit both of those [TS]

  things huh people want to come my [TS]

  interview in his office it's strange [TS]

  that he would have so much striking [TS]

  sports gear well it's sort of like the [TS]

  it's a little bit of a mixed metaphor [TS]

  right the Scientologists go across the [TS]

  bridge up the ladder [TS]

  all right cool who's working on his on [TS]

  his tennis stroke but it also I guess [TS]

  translated to cricket a sport that was [TS]

  not played in Alaska who knows where he [TS]

  even got a cricket bat it was culturally [TS]

  sensitive if he turned it over I bet it [TS]

  had that I bet it like had the initials [TS]

  of his his fraternity mmm but by the [TS]

  time you get to high school of course [TS]

  you don't know the names of the bite of [TS]

  the assistant principals anymore they [TS]

  don't loom as large because in high [TS]

  school they can't they're not hitting [TS]

  you with a cricket bat anymore it's [TS]

  there partly because the seniors are so [TS]

  big yeah you can't take a 17 year old [TS]

  and whack em you can get away with it [TS]

  when a kid is 12 I mean not anymore [TS]

  obviously but in Alaska in the early [TS]

  eighties no it was it was real I [TS]

  remember being terrified when I arrived [TS]

  at my public school in Florida and [TS]

  there's a hole yeah I just remember [TS]

  reading the student guide because I was [TS]

  the kind of person who would do that all [TS]

  the crazy rules but what kind of clothes [TS]

  you're allowed to wear and then this [TS]

  like fetishists description of the [TS]

  swatting the spanking process and [TS]

  exactly like the very specifics of what [TS]

  kind of device was going to be used to [TS]

  strike you and like how it was going it [TS]

  was it was so weird it was like I wish I [TS]

  could find it today because it really it [TS]

  feels well it feels like porn it doesn't [TS]

  in turn something from another time it [TS]

  just feels like somebody's idea of like [TS]

  I wrote this this week Inc we put it in [TS]

  like oh yeah I don't know Jim man you're [TS]

  pretty specific about the kind of [TS]

  plywood to be used when you hit these [TS]

  girls why they're bad he just read the [TS]

  Marquis de Sade I was talking about I [TS]

  was talking about being a master of [TS]

  ceremonies and I had that in my notes [TS]

  even right and the roles that are you [TS]

  that you go to a high school and you [TS]

  look around you you figure out what [TS]

  roles you're gonna play and [TS]

  all these different roles right [TS]

  valedictorian captain of the football [TS]

  team all this stuff and the and I knew [TS]

  that I was none of those things I was [TS]

  never gonna be captain of the [TS]

  cheerleaders I didn't want to be a [TS]

  photographer for the newspaper they were [TS]

  there were people that just like [TS]

  photographer for a yearbook or newspaper [TS]

  was all they wanted to be because the [TS]

  photographer likes is behind the camera [TS]

  they don't really have to they're not in [TS]

  front of the camera so they're usually a [TS]

  lone wolf [TS]

  lone wolf right they're there but [TS]

  they're in the background they're [TS]

  working alone nobody really knows how to [TS]

  do what they're doing it seems a little [TS]

  like magic you can be like you could be [TS]

  like the the like coolest dork in school [TS]

  if you had a camera yeah you get to be a [TS]

  rogue wrote warrior you'd probably get a [TS]

  pass I bet you get a special pass you [TS]

  get to go to things earlier late back [TS]

  then you certainly did nowadays who [TS]

  knows who knows what kids are allowed to [TS]

  do now-soy cameras on everything Thanks [TS]

  metal detectors just to get into school [TS]

  but I recognized I didn't want to be [TS]

  king of the Nerds I didn't want to be [TS]

  president of the school I didn't want to [TS]

  be what I wanted to be was Master of [TS]

  Ceremonies I wanted to do the pep [TS]

  assemblies I wanted to talk on the [TS]

  microphone I wanted to do morning [TS]

  announcements in the school I wanted to [TS]

  be considered the host of the school and [TS]

  like and that wasn't the job not the [TS]

  greeter but like you know when you [TS]

  thought of at the beginning of Red Dawn [TS]

  when the Russians arrived you know I [TS]

  wanted to be the one that walked out the [TS]

  front door and said hello the anchorman [TS]

  yeah that wasn't a job I had to go in to [TS]

  the principal's office day after day [TS]

  week after week and say you know what [TS]

  you guys really need you need somebody [TS]

  to handle all this stuff don't dress for [TS]

  the job you have just for the job that [TS]

  doesn't exist yet that's right and that [TS]

  was my job and that has continued to be [TS]

  there was a long period you're very good [TS]

  at it you're a lot like your mom taking [TS]

  over the meeting you don't do it in like [TS]

  an assertive way but you're very good at [TS]

  like making sure that everything runs [TS]

  well in a social situation you're very [TS]

  good I'd like to put this person you [TS]

  know I would make everybody feel [TS]

  comfortable I like to duck shins you can [TS]

  walk them over to the couch [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  so there was a long period of time there [TS]

  where I didn't have the I didn't have [TS]

  access to two worlds outside of my own [TS]

  immediate world where I could be you [TS]

  know I love to just be that person at a [TS]

  party or in a situation where groups of [TS]

  people were merging but I wasn't invited [TS]

  out into like the city to host events [TS]

  for people because I was for a long time [TS]

  a drug addict and an unknown now I get [TS]

  asked to do this all the time like it's [TS]

  a it's a big part of it well two things [TS]

  right for a long time it was part of [TS]

  volunteering for me it was like how I [TS]

  gave back to the community because a lot [TS]

  of the times what I was asked to do was [TS]

  host benefits fundraisers events for [TS]

  charities and it's not like this year [TS]

  later this is like in rock years yeah [TS]

  this is in the last 10-15 years right [TS]

  you know like hey will you come do this [TS]

  for the March of Dimes or whatever and [TS]

  it was always it was an automatic yes [TS]

  and then I started getting asked to do [TS]

  those things where it was not a charity [TS]

  it was like this is our annual meeting [TS]

  or this is a we're having a having a big [TS]

  event and we're a for-profit company and [TS]

  I've it took me a while to realize like [TS]

  hmm [TS]

  so this isn't really it this isn't [TS]

  really a benefit is it this is more of a [TS]

  it's more of a job you would hire [TS]

  somebody to do I've learned learn how [TS]

  much to ask but I still and particularly [TS]

  around the holidays right I've there [TS]

  have been I've been invited to do this [TS]

  five times in the last two weeks like [TS]

  hey will you do our thing and I'm and [TS]

  I'm practicing a little bit of the like [TS]

  the mid-2000s Merlin Mann where I'm like [TS]

  I'm going to say a number and what I [TS]

  hope you hear in this number is no I [TS]

  don't want to do your thing but if you [TS]

  say yes to this number I'll do your [TS]

  thing mm-hmm anyway I get a call from [TS]

  the University of Washington and by call [TS]

  I mean email [TS]

  and the email said hey will you come [TS]

  moderate or will you be the interlocutor [TS]

  the interviewer for an event we're [TS]

  having and I said you know sure yeah [TS]

  what's the event and they said we're [TS]

  bringing Dan Harmon oh my god [TS]

  to the University of Washington and we [TS]

  would like you to be his oh my god to [TS]

  interview him and and host the event oh [TS]

  my god and I was like this is my chance [TS]

  this is it I get to bring this whole [TS]

  story full circle Dan Harmon and I are [TS]

  gonna I'm gonna do my due diligence this [TS]

  time I'm gonna watch Rick and Morty I'm [TS]

  gonna read his Wikipedia entry I'm gonna [TS]

  like catch up on all those shows [TS]

  everybody's always demanding you watch [TS]

  can't make a few note cards about the [TS]

  names of the shows he's done and so when [TS]

  he says when I say you know I love your [TS]

  shows and he says which ones and and and [TS]

  and I'll have that moment of like ah [TS]

  then I'll be able to answer I'll say [TS]

  Rick and Morty and he'll go what do you [TS]

  like about it [TS]

  but I'll be I'll be ready for him cuz [TS]

  I'll have written it down and I'll say [TS]

  Rick and Morty or whatever I don't know [TS]

  I haven't done that work yet but I was [TS]

  like no but you know the thing the point [TS]

  is the point is not what you will say [TS]

  but that you will know what to say [TS]

  mm-hmm I will not be caught with my [TS]

  drawers down there with his Harmon in [TS]

  his hand because you are now a man who [TS]

  knows all the great shows that's right [TS]

  that's exactly it [TS]

  and I was super thrilled to have this [TS]

  opportunity and so I said yes and I said [TS]

  you know like basically like what's the [TS]

  drill and I got this email back that [TS]

  said well we're working on a list of [TS]

  questions [TS]

  that were gonna run by his people and [TS]

  then we'll send them to you so that you [TS]

  can go through and and make sure that [TS]

  you know like add any edits he want to [TS]

  add mmm and this isn't ever what this [TS]

  isn't normal right that is absolutely [TS]

  new to me that's something you would do [TS]

  with somebody who's on the volunteer [TS]

  committee or you know what I mean like [TS]

  somebody who's got somebody who's like [TS]

  on the on the student board for visiting [TS]

  speakers would get to go up and ask pre [TS]

  ask questions you would not have an [TS]

  editorial guest moderator come in and [TS]

  read somebody else's questions I don't [TS]

  think no I agree that that seems odd so [TS]

  I was like hmm list of questions okay [TS]

  and I'm just thinking that it's gotta be [TS]

  you know that I'm gonna because [TS]

  sometimes right and you have this [TS]

  experience too sometimes you do events [TS]

  for people who don't do events they [TS]

  don't they don't do events and it's I [TS]

  don't sound unkind but if it's not quite [TS]

  that they haven't thought it through but [TS]

  on some level it's that they haven't [TS]

  really thought it through like okay now [TS]

  in your head walk through how all this [TS]

  happens how we get on stage what happens [TS]

  how everybody's introduced we talk for [TS]

  this amount of time and then what's [TS]

  gonna happen and that's even before I'm [TS]

  setting aside all of the like behind the [TS]

  scenes stuff that like if you haven't [TS]

  really thought about what order this [TS]

  stuff goes in and what people are used [TS]

  to you're gonna this is gonna go slower [TS]

  than you think and it's gonna be more [TS]

  difficult than you think because you're [TS]

  asking people to like reframe what kind [TS]

  of event this is there are those there [TS]

  are those situations and then I [TS]

  encounter a lot of them where there is [TS]

  someone running the event who's used to [TS]

  running a big operation because it's [TS]

  because it's a big it's a big event for [TS]

  a big operation and so they they put [TS]

  somebody whose normal job is manager of [TS]

  some department and they say you know [TS]

  you do the event and and they're excited [TS]

  about it because it's their Christmas [TS]

  event or something and they're like [TS]

  great and then I'll get a thing in the [TS]

  mail which is their script hmm they're [TS]

  like you're the host [TS]

  and so at 11:27 we're gonna ring the [TS]

  bell and at 11:28 you're gonna walk [TS]

  onstage and then here's your script hi [TS]

  everyone welcome to the event my name is [TS]

  john roderick and i am here as and and [TS]

  then it's and every word is [TS]

  and I'm like this is fantastic thank you [TS]

  for sending this over I'll definitely [TS]

  work from this outline and 99% of the [TS]

  time everybody's fine with that because [TS]

  there's in cases like that do they [TS]

  usually have rehearsal scheduled [TS]

  rehearsal they do and and in those [TS]

  rehearsals I'm perfectly happy to like [TS]

  do the blocking and read from their [TS]

  script but you know I'm not gonna get up [TS]

  and read a script to them anything [TS]

  anyway so I so I think that this list of [TS]

  questions is going to be sort of [TS]

  perfunctory [TS]

  and I'm gonna peruse it and it's like [TS]

  you know tell us about all the shows and [TS]

  then I'm gonna I'm gonna sit up there [TS]

  and be like Dan here's my next question [TS]

  what about the shows they're pretty good [TS]

  people like mm I write and I open this [TS]

  list of questions and it is phenomenal [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so I do there there are 15 questions and [TS]

  they are so like specific that you got a [TS]

  nice soft one to open them up the first [TS]

  one in an Adult Swim short clip you talk [TS]

  about the roles of creator and create II [TS]

  and specifically Rick as creator on Rick [TS]

  and Morty can you tell us more about the [TS]

  theme of creation on the show and as an [TS]

  artist who creates yourself is there a [TS]

  certain level of responsibility that [TS]

  comes with creating how do you [TS]

  consolidate that especially given the [TS]

  context of Rick and Morty as a show [TS]

  acknowledged for exploring socially [TS]

  relevant topics no one has ever read [TS]

  that out loud until this moment [TS]

  that's the softball that's the softball [TS]

  opener okay I got a lot of notes I feel [TS]

  like and and I feel like they were they [TS]

  wanted me then to go through this and [TS]

  below that to nod politely while he's [TS]

  answering that excellent question no but [TS]

  like you know put it in your own words [TS]

  and [TS]

  and my reaction was I have none of my [TS]

  own words like there's no I have no I [TS]

  could not ask a follow-up to this nor [TS]

  would I know what I was saying as I was [TS]

  saying it I would not know if he was [TS]

  giving a good answer or a bad one that's [TS]

  really really bad it's not a good [TS]

  question it's phrased poorly and I would [TS]

  never open with it that's it there's [TS]

  time at the end that would basically say [TS]

  ask him how he feels about the creative [TS]

  process in terms of how he presents his [TS]

  characters or something like that but [TS]

  that's such a weird question to open [TS]

  with you know I would not be surprised [TS]

  knowing the very little I know about him [TS]

  I you know let me put it this way you [TS]

  open with that question you're not gonna [TS]

  save yourself from the all the great [TS]

  shows situation that is not an opening [TS]

  that is gonna get you where you want to [TS]

  be with that situation [TS]

  no like question number 8 here's how [TS]

  it's phrased okay dude ellipses why [TS]

  Szechuan sauce does that whole craze [TS]

  excite or annoy you [TS]

  have you had it recently how what did [TS]

  you learn from your experience being [TS]

  fired as community's showrunner after [TS]

  the third season I guess that's [TS]

  something that I would understand why [TS]

  people were asking let's see it just [TS]

  goes on right and so what what so what [TS]

  what happened was I sat and I studied [TS]

  this this list of 15 questions and and I [TS]

  felt like like the like all of a sudden [TS]

  Dan Harmon was again receding into the [TS]

  fog and I was like Dan and I was running [TS]

  slow motion Dan no no come back and he [TS]

  just was big you know and he could he [TS]

  was looking at me sort of Cheshire Cat [TS]

  and all I could see then was his face [TS]

  smiling kind of in the through the can [TS]

  tell you as we say in the summers in the [TS]

  tech world you flip the bozo a bit like [TS]

  in the sense that you know I'm saying [TS]

  like sometimes you meet somebody in you [TS]

  go like all it takes is them saying one [TS]

  particular thing could be jury duty [TS]

  could be waiting for the Train [TS]

  but somebody says something real stupid [TS]

  you go well I don't have to pay a super [TS]

  lot of attention to that person just [TS]

  flip the bozo a bit [TS]

  flip the bozo bitch and David Harmon is [TS]

  not gonna hear that question even if you [TS]

  read that very well he's not gonna hear [TS]

  that and then think this is gonna be a [TS]

  great interview well right or you know [TS]

  and he's gonna look he's gonna think [TS]

  it's you he's your fault you came up [TS]

  with that terrible question he's either [TS]

  gonna think that or he's gonna recognize [TS]

  looking at my face that I'm basically [TS]

  Zoltan little jaws moving and I'm like [TS]

  how does Rick and Morty [TS]

  like I will have what wasn't there a [TS]

  beginning dependent cause the let's see [TS]

  it opened with in an Adult Swim short [TS]

  clip and okay so I don't know I know [TS]

  what Adult Swim is but I do not know [TS]

  what an Adult Swim short clip is that [TS]

  slim short clip in an Adult Swim short [TS]

  clip which might be like it might be a [TS]

  way of preparing beef as far as I know [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  you talk about the roles of creator and [TS]

  create he he he talked about it so it's [TS]

  like a documentary like like talking [TS]

  head interview where he taught a dog so [TS]

  they're asking him about another [TS]

  interview that he did that was on the [TS]

  Cartoon Network right and they went I [TS]

  have to follow up on that based on [TS]

  something something Rick and Morty I've [TS]

  watched Adult Swim quite a bit but I do [TS]

  not remember the short clip as a thing I [TS]

  guess I haven't watched it recently and [TS]

  it must be that they get creators and [TS]

  create ease to get up and do little mini [TS]

  many interviews but in the context of [TS]

  this I do not know what they mean by [TS]

  create T like he's the one who is [TS]

  created by is that what that we take [TS]

  that to me to create or creates things [TS]

  and I created T is one who is created [TS]

  one who is created so how is Dan Harmon [TS]

  created by either Adult Swim or his show [TS]

  but then but then talk about the roles [TS]

  of creator and create II and [TS]

  specifically Rick as creator on Rick and [TS]

  Morty and now is Rick a cartoon [TS]

  character or is he a person [TS]

  uh he's a person who's a cartoon [TS]

  character on the Rick and Morty show but [TS]

  he is a real person named Rick in the [TS]

  world I don't think so it started out [TS]

  apparently as kind of a riff on Back to [TS]

  the Future he's kind of the Doc Brown [TS]

  character but it's gone a very far away [TS]

  away from that since the pilot so but [TS]

  it's not that Rick is like Rick and Dan [TS]

  went to college together and started [TS]

  this show I'm aware of so I think he's [TS]

  in create I think he's a create T of Dan [TS]

  Harmon and his writing partner right so [TS]

  Rick is not a creator on Rick and Morty [TS]

  well so anyway I would be I mean I could [TS]

  sit with Dan Harmon and unpack the [TS]

  question for 45 minutes but he would be [TS]

  like shouldn't there be somebody [TS]

  interviewing me that knows that knows me [TS]

  which is which is our question you think [TS]

  about any time you're preparing to do an [TS]

  interview or you're preparing even if [TS]

  it's just a podcast I'm gonna think [TS]

  about when I interviewed Hodgman for a [TS]

  thing here in town called City Arts & [TS]

  Lectures [TS]

  Lectures [TS]

  the prep that went into that and talking [TS]

  to him and you know really talking in [TS]

  that case talk because it wasn't gonna [TS]

  be obviously a friendly interview about [TS]

  his book and talking about the kind of [TS]

  stuff you wanted to talk about and I try [TS]

  to throw in a few zingers but at the [TS]

  heart of it like and when you're [TS]

  preparing for stuff like that look-the [TS]

  quits the question is a MacGuffin I mean [TS]

  right what you're looking for is an [TS]

  opportunity for the personality you [TS]

  think about a good Terry Gross interview [TS]

  like a class a Terry Gross interview is [TS]

  where she talks to somebody where she [TS]

  doesn't really know much about what that [TS]

  person does but ends up very curious [TS]

  about an angle into what they do that [TS]

  gives them an opportunity to say [TS]

  something they never knew they thought [TS]

  about that topic right dude I'm saying [TS]

  that's that's I'm maybe getting to [TS]

  inside my own head here but I think the [TS]

  goal of a good interview is to not be [TS]

  like a fucking writer for pitchfork and [TS]

  go look at me notice what I'm creating [TS]

  it's more to get out of the way and just [TS]

  provide enough ammunition for that [TS]

  person to go off in a direction that's [TS]

  gonna be interesting novel and my goal [TS]

  would be try to get them to say [TS]

  something now that they maybe something [TS]

  they want to say but get him to have a [TS]

  thought they didn't realize they'd had [TS]

  and have them articulated in a way that [TS]

  surprises and delights them give them [TS]

  the ammunition for that right question [TS]

  like that does not do that [TS]

  a question like that wants to be written [TS]

  on a whiteboard and diagrammed yeah and [TS]

  it's and it's obvious it was obvious to [TS]

  me as I was reading it like oh this was [TS]

  the problem between me and Dan Harmon [TS]

  the last time we met coming through the [TS]

  Rye which was this is the level of [TS]

  fandom that he's used to encountering [TS]

  like this these questions were obviously [TS]

  put together by students at the [TS]

  University who were very excited that [TS]

  it's put together by someone who's [TS]

  partway through college and and probably [TS]

  a team of them because the the [TS]

  suggestion as I was waiting for these [TS]

  questions to arrive was like we're [TS]

  working on these questions and I do [TS]

  events for the university all the time [TS]

  and I really like the guy that puts on [TS]

  events there the last one I did was with [TS]

  Adam Savage and the way that I prepared [TS]

  for it was I had three cups of coffee [TS]

  and some peanut M&Ms and then I got up [TS]

  on stage and I was like all right here [TS]

  he is so you know so tell me [TS]

  Anson he's such our hot like you heard [TS]

  you're a guy that makes things like what [TS]

  do you say about that and he's like I do [TS]

  make [TS]

  you know he's like he doesn't and I [TS]

  don't think Dan Harmon probably needs [TS]

  much help to get going so I was you know [TS]

  I was prepared to have some fun with it [TS]

  but but reading this I was like I I [TS]

  really do feel like the expectations of [TS]

  the students are very high first of all [TS]

  for what we're gonna you know we're [TS]

  gonna put Dan Harmon to the grill here [TS]

  yeah because that question goes the [TS]

  question that I just read the first half [TS]

  of goes on for a while and uses the word [TS]

  create or three more times so he does [TS]

  feel like maybe he is the creator okay [TS]

  to some of them anyway I wrote the [TS]

  University and my friend their second [TS]

  letter and I said I sent them a letter [TS]

  and I said this is the rare rare [TS]

  occasion where I feel like I'm the wrong [TS]

  guy for this job I do not think I do not [TS]

  think I will do a good job usually as [TS]

  the emcee in Waiting you see nothing but [TS]

  opportunities where you could go in and [TS]

  contribute something in this case the [TS]

  rare rare instance where you feel like [TS]

  you're the wrong match as I'm sue for [TS]

  this that's right I have never written [TS]

  that letter before you know what I feel [TS]

  like I'm the wrong guy for this it's [TS]

  never I never feel that way I'm oh I'm [TS]

  always like Oh what do you need like are [TS]

  we talking serious are we being funny is [TS]

  this supposed to be light is this [TS]

  supposed to be dark are we is this [TS]

  meaningful are we gonna see a montage of [TS]

  kids that we've helped or are we going [TS]

  to are we just trying to auction off [TS]

  some funny thing while we're all dressed [TS]

  like seven bits right that's right and [TS]

  all if I may the thread in all of those [TS]

  I feel like it seems like you're talking [TS]

  about yourself and what you what you do [TS]

  but the threat in all of those is that [TS]

  you I feel like is that you have a sense [TS]

  of it's gonna begin like this and then I [TS]

  want people to feel like that and a lot [TS]

  of times that's they want them to be I [TS]

  want to feel laughter and entertained I [TS]

  want them to feel in on the joke I want [TS]

  them to feel that their efforts have had [TS]

  a great effect [TS]

  people that they don't even know like [TS]

  you have a sense like you could may not [TS]

  articulate it that way but you know what [TS]

  the tone of it is supposed to be if that [TS]

  question goes great how is Dan Harmon's [TS]

  supposed to feel [TS]

  how is everybody in the room supposed to [TS]

  feel except from except for awkward [TS]

  right well with the Adam Savage thing I [TS]

  mean the surprise to me I've never I've [TS]

  never seen it quite this way but it was [TS]

  a it was a packed house and at the end [TS]

  during the question period probably 60% [TS]

  of the people who got up to ask a [TS]

  question got up and said watching your [TS]

  show as a kid is the reason that I went [TS]

  into the sciences and now I am here [TS]

  getting a master's degree in particle [TS]

  physics and I owe it all to you and 60% [TS]

  of the people either started with that [TS]

  or that's all they wanted to get up and [TS]

  say and and it was complete like [TS]

  completely a diverse group of people [TS]

  right it was equal number of men and [TS]

  women equal number of people of all [TS]

  races it was a complete rainbow room and [TS]

  they all had this same experience and I [TS]

  was just like wow I I didn't realize [TS]

  what uh what a powerful religious figure [TS]

  he is and and Mythbusters was in terms [TS]

  of like turning a generation of curious [TS]

  kids into scientists and I was looking [TS]

  forward to figuring this out about Dan [TS]

  Harmon to through this process of like [TS]

  so Dan honestly you and I are about the [TS]

  same age you seem to be a very popular [TS]

  creator of things mm-hmm you know and go [TS]

  from there right anyway I wrote and said [TS]

  wasn't even setting aside the fact that [TS]

  the thing hiding in plain sight and we [TS]

  talked about a little bit last time [TS]

  which is that he is a notoriously tough [TS]

  nut to crack right I mean and that it's [TS]

  that we should not skip over that but [TS]

  apparently he is irascible [TS]

  like yeah he he will be very provocative [TS]

  with [TS]

  little provocation yes this was what I [TS]

  was really looking forward to you know [TS]

  we should give hell you could toss you [TS]

  know we didn't have a chance before you [TS]

  know we're standing in his green room [TS]

  and I was like hey so you are the I'm [TS]

  supposed to meet you mister people are [TS]

  acting like it's really great that [TS]

  you're here here oh my god [TS]

  and now I was gonna be like Oh johnny on [TS]

  the spot about it let's get into it Dan [TS]

  Harmon uh like that what that didn't [TS]

  intimidate me at all but boy these [TS]

  questions didn't so I yeah I first time [TS]

  first time in ever I I wrote and said [TS]

  I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to say [TS]

  no thank you [TS]

  to this to this offer and not because I [TS]

  don't want to do it but because because [TS]

  you guys want a you want a very [TS]

  different thing this reads more like a [TS]

  Stassi interrogation and I wouldn't know [TS]

  I don't understand the question access [TS]

  to the mailbox at the time your shoes [TS]

  have not around the edges would you like [TS]

  a cigarette you put out a bunch of [TS]

  folders and you just kind of casually [TS]

  pickle what's obviously above like it's [TS]

  just got a wire yes tell me mister dunne [TS]

  home and where do you get your ideas [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  remind you were selling t-shirts for two [TS]

  weeks you can go and pre-order t-shirts [TS]

  for the router from the line program Oh [TS]

  shucky darns yeah check it darn and slap [TS]

  the chickens so you we have we have a [TS]

  show shirt so should we have four we [TS]

  have four three we have three designs of [TS]

  shirt this is a terrible URL you just go [TS]

  to show notes and you'll see a link to [TS]

  it in there but you go to cotton beer [TS]

  calm mm-hm I think it's cotton guru calm [TS]

  slash people slash rod [TS]

  - /on - fine - that's the - line I think [TS]

  that's it but if you go to show notes [TS]

  you'll see it but you can go and so [TS]

  we've got the return of the pound sign [TS]

  supertrain shirt we have the ding [TS]

  Roderick red wine orange bell and a [TS]

  brand new shirt that ironically enough [TS]

  even all the great shows t-shirt you can [TS]

  get all the great shows it has it has [TS]

  been I've been made aware of the fact [TS]

  that all the great shows has gone out [TS]

  into the world and all the time it's [TS]

  done it's gone wide and are completely [TS]

  yeah it's a it's in the podcast [TS]

  community right as I say much and what [TS]

  does it what does it mean to other [TS]

  people in the podcast community is it [TS]

  being used appropriately or as it has [TS]

  the meaning morphed well like all these [TS]

  kinds of things I think the people who [TS]

  spread it very much know where it's from [TS]

  I'm not sure that people hear it always [TS]

  know although I think it's kind of it's [TS]

  gotten some currency but yeah like among [TS]

  people who've listened to this program [TS]

  and have other podcasts or podcast [TS]

  networks it's become kind of the [TS]

  parlance you can always tell it's caught [TS]

  on when you say a certain kind of thing [TS]

  and then there's a slack slack bought [TS]

  auto-response that dumps and all all the [TS]

  great shows in like that's a good sign [TS]

  that you've been meaned around designed [TS]

  by our friends at Cotton Bureau and I I [TS]

  don't want to get us in trouble from an [TS]

  IP standpoint but I would say it's [TS]

  basically it's a t-shirt it says all the [TS]

  great shows doesn't sound so great but [TS]

  it's print pretty much the all in the [TS]

  family font it's a great fun it's a [TS]

  really good the first thing did it I [TS]

  think they said it in Cooper black and [TS]

  that looked great [TS]

  but I think I don't know what this face [TS]

  is called but it looks really sharp and [TS]

  you can get it at Cotton Bureau like I [TS]

  said go to the show notes Roderick on [TS]

  the line calm for this episode you'll [TS]

  find a link to it it's a it's a shirt [TS]

  that I would wear I absolutely would [TS]

  wear this shirt I would give it as a [TS]

  gift I may give it as a gift what isn't [TS]

  that great when it when everybody opens [TS]

  the president it's a present from you [TS]

  about you once I had a housewarming [TS]

  party and an acquaintance arrived and [TS]

  said he had a gift for me and what he [TS]

  gave me was his vanity printed book of [TS]

  essays that he had signed [TS]

  haha I said thanks buddy I have a full [TS]

  picture of you on my piano [TS]

  what and it was one of it was during [TS]

  your period where you were doing [TS]

  business cards and stuff you had that [TS]

  wonderful picture of you standing on a [TS]

  chair in the middle of a field of mall [TS]

  Ivy that's a great really shouting [TS]

  format slap laptop laptop shouting at a [TS]

  four tall hair one sweater look a little [TS]

  chunky and screaming into the forest [TS]

  yeah I really it really really spoke to [TS]

  me it's really the Merlin man that I [TS]

  know best [TS]

  I think know it love and so I took that [TS]

  picture and I put it in a frame and I [TS]

  put it on my piano and it's just one of [TS]

  the things that is in the house it's [TS]

  just Merlin shouting at the forest it's [TS]

  uh [TS]

  and I've always as I walked past it [TS]

  because I you know I see it 40 times a [TS]

  day it's the type of thing I really wish [TS]

  that you would give out at Christmas a [TS]

  framed photo was yourself shouting at [TS]

  the forest because I think everyone in [TS]

  your life would put it on their piano [TS]

  huh you think that's that's the gift but [TS]

  in particularly that's the photo this [TS]

  should be in the gift well no I think if [TS]

  you because you take pretty good [TS]

  pictures and you've you've had some [TS]

  iconic pictures taken over the years I [TS]

  think if you gave out a series or like [TS]

  just you know just made coasters or [TS]

  whatever but if you gave out a series of [TS]

  framed photos of yourself oh it may be a [TS]

  copy of my signed it for you [TS]

  hey I got you something enjoy the new [TS]

  house yeah Merry Christmas [TS]

  let me ask you this so go goodbye the [TS]

  fucking shirt the thing I wanted to ask [TS]

  you if this were an alternate universe [TS]

  if we're in the the the ultimate Dan [TS]

  Harmon universe and you had the [TS]

  opportunity to go and do the interview [TS]

  you'd like with him mm-hmm [TS]

  how would you open I mean I know I'm [TS]

  putting you on the spot a little bit [TS]

  but knowing but like setting everything [TS]

  else aside if somebody says to you okay [TS]

  you gonna have two chairs on stage you [TS]

  got a bowl of fruit and some water [TS]

  there's gonna be 300 people there in a [TS]

  theater atmosphere you're gonna have a [TS]

  love Mike you'll have a lot Mike you [TS]

  35 minutes plus 20 minutes for questions [TS]

  what kind of thing would you would you [TS]

  open with my think I would yeah I think [TS]

  I would sit down not having not having [TS]

  yet read it would you strike the stage [TS]

  and reset where the chairs are do you [TS]

  think yeah yeah I mean I my opening [TS]

  would be then like leaving aside your [TS]

  entire Canon I don't think I think [TS]

  everybody in the room has is super [TS]

  well-versed in the stuff that you make [TS]

  and if they want to know more about it [TS]

  they can go look it up which I'm sure [TS]

  they already have and so a lot of the [TS]

  questions that people probably typically [TS]

  ask you are just rephrases of their own [TS]

  desire to let you know that they know [TS]

  what you do yeah [TS]

  people just want to get up and ask [TS]

  obscure questions that they already know [TS]

  the answer to just to watch you perform [TS]

  like a like a marionette what I think I [TS]

  would rather do now is you know kind of [TS]

  get to the bottom of like why you're [TS]

  here [TS]

  what what what interests you about [TS]

  appearing in front of a group of people [TS]

  making yourself available this way as [TS]

  somebody that is that works in a medium [TS]

  where your face is not on the screen [TS]

  like what's your relationship to to this [TS]

  yourself in the world like what are you [TS]

  here what are you hoping to hear from [TS]

  people look and and is this anyway he [TS]

  wants with that he could say yeah I [TS]

  don't want to be here my fucking agent [TS]

  made me come here yeah I'm promoting a [TS]

  thing and this is part of promoting it [TS]

  or he could say you know that I don't [TS]

  get a lot of feedback like directly with [TS]

  people and I really crave the human [TS]

  contact or he could say what an asshole [TS]

  question why don't you just get on to [TS]

  the Rick and Morty stuff yeah what [TS]

  special on sauce yeah whatever deal with [TS]

  McDonald's because it would be because I [TS]

  would be able to say like look I am I'm [TS]

  someone who also is like a human being [TS]

  in the world I've been asked to [TS]

  interview you and I could never get up [TS]

  to speed on everything you've done so [TS]

  that so that the choice the university [TS]

  has here is either to sit as [TS]

  superfan against you or to put a person [TS]

  that is that's like a conversational [TS]

  person and you and I can converse eight [TS]

  but I think a lot of that I would [TS]

  probably say to him backstage right and [TS]

  and if he said you know that's a good [TS]

  point like a little pre-interview kind [TS]

  of thing of like what are you excited [TS]

  about what do you man about what [TS]

  happened at your hotel [TS]

  that kind of stuff something you do like [TS]

  before a talk show like find out what's [TS]

  what's going on and figure out three [TS]

  three big beats yeah right are you here [TS]

  to pitch something in which case let's [TS]

  get let's pitch it or are you here just [TS]

  because you are doing the rounds or like [TS]

  you seem to be somebody that well [TS]

  however much money the University of [TS]

  Washington comes up with to bring you [TS]

  here it's a drop in the bucket you don't [TS]

  care you're not doing it like really I [TS]

  mean like you go out and even if they're [TS]

  paying you $25,000 or eighty thousand [TS]

  dollars to appear like I guess probably [TS]

  $80,000 is is meaningful to someone who [TS]

  works in Hollywood but I know another [TS]

  angle would be what kind of advice do [TS]

  you have for young people mr. Harmon [TS]

  Harmon many prefer to get into show [TS]

  business [TS]