The Incomparable

146: Bashing Two Action Figures Together

 

  the incomparable number 146 to plan to [TS]

  welcome back to being comfortable [TS]

  podcast I'm your host Jason snow and in [TS]

  this episode we're going to talk about a [TS]

  recent movie release so many of the [TS]

  things we do on this podcast it's [TS]

  classic stuff stuff that's been out for [TS]

  a while but in the last few months we've [TS]

  been trying to do a few of the summer [TS]

  movies and and get them out there sooner [TS]

  and so this is something that came out [TS]

  not too long ago as we record this week [TS]

  and a half ago [TS]

  it's a man of steel the zack snyder [TS]

  directed Superman movie and we're going [TS]

  to talk about it for the next hour ish [TS]

  probably unless we all get very [TS]

  frustrated and say this podcast is over [TS]

  and then i'll be the shortest episode [TS]

  ever [TS]

  joining me to talk about the new [TS]

  Superman movie are my three [TS]

  distinguished panelists Dan Morgan hi [TS]

  dan thanks for coming thanks for being [TS]

  here [TS]

  I Jason it's great to be back after such [TS]

  a long time away from the incomparable [TS]

  yeah you say that but the other episodes [TS]

  i've recorded with you recently aren't [TS]

  going to air for weeks now but I'm just [TS]

  screwing with our audience just between [TS]

  you and me we've done a lot of these [TS]

  this week John siracusa is also here [TS]

  John thanks for being here does this [TS]

  title have missing colon 2 or is that [TS]

  not a thing but me and you will not see [TS]

  you [TS]

  yes man of colon steel XO man of steel [TS]

  no that's I would watch that movie [TS]

  totally different character Action Man [TS]

  O'War and because of the yeah that was a [TS]

  reference the comic reference brought [TS]

  him out it's more sense to you on high [TS]

  moisture is I Jason I'd like to think of [TS]

  myself as the the crypto in this lineup [TS]

  yes Oh Krypto the Superdog he will be [TS]

  making an appearance on a on a on a [TS]

  future in comfortable life is one of us [TS]

  Supergirl is one of us like Beppo boppo [TS]

  buca di beppo know but both a superchip [TS]

  about the super cheap yeah alright sorry [TS]

  i was reading an interview with David [TS]

  Goyer this morning in which he talks to [TS]

  tell the story about sitting on set with [TS]

  russell crowe and says to him [TS]

  yeah the senior going to be acting [TS]

  opposite beppo the super to cross your [TS]

  arm I'll just looks at him and it's like [TS]

  are you will leave in kidding me and it [TS]

  was like yeah yeah I'm just kidding [TS]

  so this is a I like to talk about when [TS]

  the movie was made this is a movie from [TS]

  2013 how was released last week so it's [TS]

  it's not it's not a classic but we're [TS]

  going to dive in just [TS]

  we did with iron man and star trek and [TS]

  I'm gonna blow the spoiler horn here [TS]

  because really even though I ok let's [TS]

  defense out he's an alien [TS]

  oh yeah jor-el dies kryptonics blows up [TS]

  a Superman color can do the same guy [TS]

  that would have been a really bold move [TS]

  if they decided like maybe let's not [TS]

  just blow up Krypton the Sun like it's [TS]

  still there when he can shoot lasers [TS]

  from his eyes narrow drops red matter [TS]

  into Klingon planet Krypton and it blows [TS]

  up it's very sad to see that would be [TS]

  really shaking things up bringing the [TS]

  arms and in sit and Romulans from the [TS]

  future man is from the homeworld of the [TS]

  Klingons so Warner Brothers buys [TS]

  paramount merges star trekkin see all [TS]

  spoilers real and imagined we're going [TS]

  to talk about what's in this movie which [TS]

  means if you have not seen this movie [TS]

  you should not listen to this episode [TS]

  unless you are crazy person and if [TS]

  you're a crazy person I don't want to [TS]

  get near you because you might stab me [TS]

  so do whatever you like [TS]

  horn [TS]

  there is porn spoken so I man of steel [TS]

  this is a movie that was written by what [TS]

  David lawyer and christopher nolan Jonah [TS]

  Nolan no no one no one bucknell no [TS]

  Christopher Nolan Ryan and so [TS]

  Christopher Nolan who brought us the [TS]

  dark knight trilogy that the Batman [TS]

  Begins trilogy and so that there but [TS]

  it's zack snyder the director of 300 and [TS]

  watch men an interesting combination [TS]

  I've seen a lot of articles that sort of [TS]

  like in this Superman reboot 22 dark [TS]

  night movies I'm not sure I necessarily [TS]

  buy that but it's definitely I think [TS]

  Superman shooting for [TS]

  unlike Superman Returns which was [TS]

  honoring the those classic Christopher [TS]

  Reeve movies this is a return to the [TS]

  beginning and people who listen being [TS]

  comfortable know that I complain a lot [TS]

  about retelling of origin stories you [TS]

  know I sometimes I guess superheroes [TS]

  most interesting story is their origin [TS]

  other times I wonder though if we've [TS]

  seen all these origins before and [TS]

  they're not that interesting so it we [TS]

  get it here i think so here's the thing [TS]

  i have lots of problems with this movie [TS]

  but I one of the reasons i have problems [TS]

  with this movie is that I think that [TS]

  there are a lot of things this movie [TS]

  does right with a problematic character [TS]

  and Superman who has his 75 years old [TS]

  his origins are a little bit strange [TS]

  they did do some rewriting and [TS]

  refiguring of his origins and I think [TS]

  they I think for a lot of that they do a [TS]

  pretty good job so in this movie we see [TS]

  when Krypton there's sort of like [TS]

  political imaginations there's a corrupt [TS]

  Society russell crowe is jor-el he's [TS]

  he's trying to convince the corrupt [TS]

  government to do something because the [TS]

  planet's gonna implode on itself because [TS]

  they've been mining the core or [TS]

  something it's an ecological catastrophe [TS]

  basically but meanwhile General Zod has [TS]

  other ideas [TS]

  he would like to just shoot everybody [TS]

  essentially and that's it and that's [TS]

  sort of how the movie get started we [TS]

  discover that this is what motivates URL [TS]

  to send his son who [TS]

  turns out is the first child born of of [TS]

  woman instead of out of a test tube in [TS]

  Krypton in thousands of years and send [TS]

  his Son and the genetic material that [TS]

  makes up the entire Kryptonian race to [TS]

  earth and meanwhile General Zod is [TS]

  blowing things up and and it was a [TS]

  little like avatar because girl rides on [TS]

  a little like one of those hostages [TS]

  dragon chalice is like a dragonfly [TS]

  yeah something like that which I [TS]

  actually thought was kind of cool [TS]

  this means a great it's a great-looking [TS]

  sequence this whole section of Krypton I [TS]

  think it's actually some of the better [TS]

  green screen work I've seen yeah there's [TS]

  my ride avatar a little bit with a funny [TS]

  flying creatures in the weird shape [TS]

  buildings and stuff well in the design i [TS]

  looked like some of the design i like [TS]

  the little robot you know his little [TS]

  probe guys that you got going around [TS]

  with them that's got scored the what do [TS]

  you call that thing nothing that's like [TS]

  made an impression [TS]

  yeah that's right in the president yeah [TS]

  it's got that thing direction as the is [TS]

  the definition of all technology on [TS]

  Krypton [TS]

  yeah that's as far as they advanced they [TS]

  got to like the nineteen eighties and [TS]

  we're like my head and organ x-men to [TS]

  remember [TS]

  oh yeah oh yeah sharper image was very [TS]

  big on Krypton so I i think it's [TS]

  good-looking there's a lot of good it's [TS]

  good looking effects it's a you know [TS]

  spectacular sequence in terms of just [TS]

  you know literally spectacle but it's [TS]

  also way too long [TS]

  yeah that's what that's what you want to [TS]

  have an opening sequences you want to [TS]

  knock people not people socks off right [TS]

  from the get-go and starting with [TS]

  Krypton wherever is watching this movie [TS]

  knows what's gonna happen like we know [TS]

  we're not going to be spending much of [TS]

  this movie on Krypton Scott blow up [TS]

  pretty soon and yeah it does go a little [TS]

  bit long they could have compressed it a [TS]

  little bit but like I when the movie [TS]

  opens I was impressed by the visuals and [TS]

  but because i figured like okay they got [TS]

  to go chop chop chop I gotta have [TS]

  Darrell he complains sends the Sun off [TS]

  final blows up figured that would happen [TS]

  in pretty rapid sequence and the fact [TS]

  that they let it run a little bit too [TS]

  long maybe a few too many sequences [TS]

  should have been a warning for the right [TS]

  how they were going to handle the rest [TS]

  of the movie but at that point I was [TS]

  willing to give them the benefit of the [TS]

  doubt inside this look really cool yeah [TS]

  i like the fact that i like how [TS]

  everything played out i like that i like [TS]

  to all the designs and the effects were [TS]

  very impressive and I didn't you know I [TS]

  didn't fall in for anything except [TS]

  dragging out a bit much although in some [TS]

  of those things like [TS]

  it's showing the story about his parents [TS]

  and whatever actress played his mother [TS]

  and everything like i like to the the [TS]

  actress who played his mother I'd like [TS]

  Russell Crowe for the most part when he [TS]

  was on Krypton [TS]

  yeah i guess they wanted to make them [TS]

  into some kind of characters before they [TS]

  killed them off but i don't know if [TS]

  that's essential for superman movie and [TS]

  it made me it kind of makes sense of why [TS]

  he sent to Earth in a retelling the you [TS]

  know again I i don't really is a little [TS]

  I I like well I like I'm trying to make [TS]

  it something that feels a little more [TS]

  modern and relevant and and they didn't [TS]

  want the sort of sci-fi plot route here [TS]

  but you know it was it was kind of [TS]

  interesting it's me it's makto we really [TS]

  need a reason later why Zod is looking [TS]

  at this time like that that's what did I [TS]

  don't think that's terrible you do [TS]

  because I was trying to think back to [TS]

  Superman to him like why was odd there [TS]

  he was just annoyed that he was trapped [TS]

  in a mirror for a long time and you want [TS]

  to feel like this is at least a better [TS]

  motivation because in this in this [TS]

  genetic world where the people are [TS]

  designed for certain roles his role in [TS]

  the role he was designed for dictates [TS]

  that he would go after the guy who's got [TS]

  this genetic code or whatever like it's [TS]

  silly but it you need something to give [TS]

  a character motivation and as far as [TS]

  motivations go it makes sense in context [TS]

  and what's it's a way to explain the [TS]

  kind of black-and-white cold war-era [TS]

  villain that Zod was in the Superman [TS]

  mythos where he is he's he's about as [TS]

  nuanced is Cobra Commander in the comics [TS]

  he's just and in this movie and another [TS]

  movie I think I ya is more sympathetic [TS]

  in the movie because it's like that's [TS]

  what is it you know when he goes to [TS]

  everything I've done I've done to save [TS]

  Krypton ago well you know if he was if [TS]

  he was genetically bred to be that [TS]

  particular role as the leader of the [TS]

  Armed Forces whose goal is to protect [TS]

  crypt honest it's like a howl 9000 [TS]

  scenario where he was programmed to [TS]

  protect the mission at all costs and [TS]

  ends up doing bad things really is just [TS]

  trying to protect the mission right well [TS]

  that is just trying to save Krypton yes [TS]

  blew up but carrying out his program so [TS]

  to speak [TS]

  this is the logical consequence and it [TS]

  would also make sense that you would [TS]

  have no qualms about doing terrible [TS]

  things because he is also supposed to be [TS]

  the leader of the Armed Forces exactly [TS]

  well yeah and despite the fact these [TS]

  leader [TS]

  the Armed Forces i also was was thrown [TS]

  off a little bit by the fact that you [TS]

  know Russell Crowe in a world where [TS]

  apparently everybody is genetically bred [TS]

  for a specific purpose and yet [TS]

  russell crowe manages to pretty well [TS]

  hold his own against like the top of the [TS]

  warrior caste presumably which is it [TS]

  loses in like five minutes it's not like [TS]

  you know but I mean heels that we keep [TS]

  knocking down a couple times like that [TS]

  Johnson the the scientists versus the [TS]

  warrior fights should be over in about [TS]

  three seconds and I and this is an issue [TS]

  i have later on to with the you know [TS]

  which will get to with the the superman [TS]

  vs odd fights to their there is the [TS]

  russell crowe suspension of disbelief [TS]

  clause in his contract is science armor [TS]

  yeah you know and yet science armor [TS]

  right science armor and just it's it's [TS]

  something that they're contractually [TS]

  obligated to give Russell Crowe one [TS]

  fight in every movie that he's in where [TS]

  he is the fist of justice fighting [TS]

  against evil and he at least starts to [TS]

  get the upper hand on somebody had [TS]

  happened lame as Rob and they they they [TS]

  made Javert you know more of a more of a [TS]

  a strapping badass the same as gladiator [TS]

  realize i just think this is the least [TS]

  least believable superhero scientists [TS]

  since Arnold Schwarzenegger plate Victor [TS]

  fries couch so I don't want us to stay [TS]

  on Krypton too long like the movie does [TS]

  but uh it is interesting and it and what [TS]

  we end up getting next which I i found a [TS]

  lot of relief about is we don't end up [TS]

  with you know comet kind of thing in the [TS]

  sky people in Kansas wonder what it is [TS]

  thing comes down Jonathan Kent finds it [TS]

  you know be naked baby picks up a car [TS]

  you know all that kind of stuff instead [TS]

  we get a we get an adult more or less [TS]

  Clark and we see him he's kind of a kind [TS]

  of a drifter a traveler going from place [TS]

  to place but he's also renal yeah [TS]

  exactly he's with the beard laws but [TS]

  he's yeah he's scruffy and he's nice [TS]

  though he's not Wolverine Wolverines not [TS]

  nice but he's scruffy and and then in [TS]

  flashback we see sort of the story of [TS]

  him growing up I i like to the attempted [TS]

  to go i was really dreading the yet [TS]

  another retelling of the origin story [TS]

  idea why [TS]

  quite why you dreading that why here a [TS]

  lot of people complain all I can see is [TS]

  origin stories in our what is it about [TS]

  the origin story Superman's origin story [TS]

  in particular that is off-putting to you [TS]

  I you know as its not Superman in [TS]

  particular I didn't really want to see [TS]

  spider-man's origin story a second time [TS]

  in ten years either end and it's just [TS]

  it's it's the this ground this [TS]

  particular grounds been tread on with [TS]

  the Superman movies with smallville I [TS]

  mean hanging out years of small i I just [TS]

  I don't know I I worried that it was [TS]

  going to be a story tell me a story that [TS]

  I've heard in exactly the same way I [TS]

  heard it before what I like is they [TS]

  tried to tell it differently and I think [TS]

  it was effective in large part I liked [TS]

  the fact that he is sort of disaffected [TS]

  and I mean alienated from people he [TS]

  wants to do good and he wants to to take [TS]

  care of people when they're in harm's [TS]

  way but he's not part of our world and [TS]

  quite you know quite literally but also [TS]

  just socially he's not part of our world [TS]

  he's he's removed from everybody and [TS]

  then in flashback we see that what his [TS]

  father tells him which is you don't [TS]

  reveal yourself [TS]

  I even if you save people maybe you [TS]

  shouldn't save them be if it's gonna [TS]

  reveal yourself and I'll I just I I [TS]

  guess what i was really dreading was the [TS]

  retelling of that same old story in that [TS]

  same old way and i like that they told [TS]

  it in a different way and got to the [TS]

  point of like why he is what you know [TS]

  for for the first 33 years of his life [TS]

  this sort of secretive figure who who [TS]

  doesn't make any connections other than [TS]

  with his family because he's always [TS]

  drifting on like Bill Bixby and the [TS]

  incredible hulk well see i like to the [TS]

  the substance of that i agree i like [TS]

  that the drift apart in that the stuff [TS]

  they sort of read it I actually wanted [TS]

  more of that and less of the flashback I [TS]

  thought I think for me the flashback [TS]

  lost some of its effectiveness by going [TS]

  so nonlinear where it really bounces [TS]

  around between him as like you know as a [TS]

  kid as a teenager as an adult I felt [TS]

  like it got disjointed to me and I [TS]

  didn't get a clear i never got a clear [TS]

  view of clark as a character you know I [TS]

  I feel being a lot of it because I know [TS]

  who Superman and Clark Kent are but I i [TS]

  did not feel like they did they needed [TS]

  to build up a lot of stuff in order [TS]

  in certain things later on and i don't [TS]

  think that they built up enough of it to [TS]

  actually make those payoffs work i liked [TS]

  the substance of it but I just didn't [TS]

  like the structure bugged me you're not [TS]

  helping the people who confuse us than [TS]

  because you said everything you said I [TS]

  agree with as I want that I want that in [TS]

  writing [TS]

  I I agree I agree so much with with [TS]

  everything that Dan said as well and on [TS]

  the note i think the show's over guys [TS]

  ceiling yeah I think we're done [TS]

  I think we're done now our work here is [TS]

  done Jason I in in something that's kind [TS]

  of a sideways plug I'm glad that I [TS]

  didn't have you on this week's episode [TS]

  of giant size because all we talked [TS]

  about Superman origin story telling and [TS]

  it just would have been in our review [TS]

  yelling and screaming and crying no no I [TS]

  mean I i guess i guess it's the same [TS]

  reason that I'm I'm kind of okay with [TS]

  the retelling of of stories that are [TS]

  that are considered sacred I actually [TS]

  end up being more interested in them [TS]

  being told differently than in them [TS]

  being told the same way and and I just I [TS]

  don't know why they are obligatory but [TS]

  it is fine and in like i said in this [TS]

  innocent i didn't mind how they were [TS]

  they were telling him i agree with all [TS]

  of you that the flashbacks [TS]

  I mean that the flashbacks were long but [TS]

  hit-boy they could have been so much [TS]

  like it's not so much of their [TS]

  flashbacks like well first on origin [TS]

  stories I like origin stories [TS]

  particularly superheroes because what I [TS]

  dread in superhero movies is the ones [TS]

  where they settled in where it's like [TS]

  we've set up the world we set up the [TS]

  character we set up the powers this [TS]

  movie is created and tagging it's like [TS]

  James Bond movie create antagonist here [TS]

  goes against antagonist here defeats [TS]

  that world is in the balance here [TS]

  defeats antagonist that's what I find [TS]

  tiresome about the h and when they they [TS]

  change it when they've changed the lead [TS]

  actor more than twice and that I don't [TS]

  want them changing things around it's [TS]

  just like it's like it becomes episodic [TS]

  where I feel like I'm watching scooby [TS]

  doo where it's like up here we go again [TS]

  here at a spot like that and the orange [TS]

  customer you and that even though that [TS]

  story's been told a million times i I'd [TS]

  is my feel more of a human connection it [TS]

  feels less like a person going to work [TS]

  and doing their job feels more like [TS]

  someone growing up and like it's like a [TS]

  coming-of-age story how did they come to [TS]

  terms with the powers and how did they [TS]

  take that the mantle of this thing they [TS]

  want to become and it's in that [TS]

  development from oh I have these gifts [TS]

  what am I going to do with them that [TS]

  causes you to create whatever kind of [TS]

  character you are so what kind of [TS]

  Superman is this what kind of Batman is [TS]

  the tortured soul dark knight batman is [TS]

  it the world's greatest detective Batman [TS]

  is this the dude goody-two-shoes [TS]

  Superman is the the you know the Darkin [TS]

  and more ambiguous Superman is that the [TS]

  alienated Superman and it's through the [TS]

  origin story that you develop that [TS]

  character once the character rods it's [TS]

  kind of like I'm not as excited to see [TS]

  that character have various adventures [TS]

  in battle excellent there in the next [TS]

  movie unless he still has some sort of [TS]

  internal conflict or unless like [TS]

  something happened to him in the first [TS]

  movie that he hasn't quite results kind [TS]

  of like casino royale where that james [TS]

  bond character like he was different [TS]

  character beginning the movie and had [TS]

  bad things happen to him you know he's [TS]

  going to be damaged in the second movie [TS]

  and there was a writer struggle that was [TS]

  kind of but that was kind of his origin [TS]

  story though that was kind of monstrous [TS]

  tries what I'm saying like that that [TS]

  developed that gives you the James Bond [TS]

  it in the land reason which you've um [TS]

  you know I just wanted to say something [TS]

  about origins that which is which is [TS]

  origins are a good story to tell and I [TS]

  don't want to get too far off here but [TS]

  origins are good story to tell but there [TS]

  are other ways to tell stories other [TS]

  than how did I come to be if you it may [TS]

  be harder to tell those stories but it [TS]

  doesn't have to be just sort of [TS]

  completely episodic i mean i can give [TS]

  you an example of you know star star [TS]

  trek it's starting to or started first [TS]

  contact they don't they don't just say [TS]

  how the enterprise came to be it's like [TS]

  there's the characters that are dynamic [TS]

  they have things going on with them you [TS]

  can tell a good story without it being [TS]

  the coming-of-age story i guess maybe [TS]

  that's part of my my feeling too is like [TS]

  it's not the only superhero story i [TS]

  agree and disagree there where to die [TS]

  hard star trek nerds like us start to [TS]

  the wrath of khan and star trek whatever [TS]

  number 9 10 is first contact is seem [TS]

  like they could be great jumping on [TS]

  points but there have been a number of [TS]

  instances where I've tried showing both [TS]

  of those movies to people that just [TS]

  don't know star trek from pete and [TS]

  they're lost out of their minds [TS]

  that's not to say that you know maybe [TS]

  they're their head wasn't in the right [TS]

  space for it but those movies are better [TS]

  at being able to jump into them than [TS]

  some of the other Star Trek movies [TS]

  but I in that specific case I don't feel [TS]

  like they're as easy to get into as the [TS]

  09 track for people that aren't familiar [TS]

  with it all but honestly I think any [TS]

  version of superman origin story they've [TS]

  done in the movies is equally easy to [TS]

  get into and the function of this one [TS]

  should have been and was apparently to [TS]

  reset the Superman world in modern times [TS]

  and around story elements that will make [TS]

  sense and not be entirely outdated and [TS]

  sort of bigger action landscape but the [TS]

  thing that drives me crazy about it [TS]

  about this this that you know trying [TS]

  trying too long with Krypton and too [TS]

  many flashbacks is that they're trying [TS]

  to do do they try to do too many [TS]

  different mechanics at once and that's [TS]

  why it feels long and that's why feels [TS]

  like like they they could have trimmed [TS]

  it down a bit while they're all [TS]

  templated because we're talking about [TS]

  you know we're talking to hero's journey [TS]

  to answer yesterday right right so and [TS]

  this is this is to me where this falls a [TS]

  little bit flat is that it does try to [TS]

  mix up the hero's journey a little bit [TS]

  but you know there's a I don't say [TS]

  there's just a comfort to a template [TS]

  like that but there is a familiar part [TS]

  about it and I think that people really [TS]

  respond to that shape of a story and i'm [TS]

  not saying that you need to use that [TS]

  story for everything but you can work [TS]

  against it in some ways that provide a [TS]

  really nice conflict i don't think this [TS]

  did a good enough job of creating that [TS]

  tension to me it felt like a very much a [TS]

  set up as a diametrically like oh we [TS]

  don't want to do that so we're gonna try [TS]

  to do just like different different [TS]

  different at all these points and it [TS]

  doesn't come together cohesively it's [TS]

  very Superman is a problematic character [TS]

  and maybe we'll get there but in so many [TS]

  ways because he is so perfect [TS]

  historically they're trying to make [TS]

  trying to make it different to make the [TS]

  shape of his story a little bit [TS]

  different and and I like a lot of that [TS]

  right and to John's point I think the [TS]

  problem with Superman in particular when [TS]

  you talk about you know he's talking [TS]

  about getting at the comfort inn the [TS]

  formula the problem Superman is he's [TS]

  he's God right like he he's invulnerable [TS]

  he's indestructible he can beat [TS]

  everybody's got super strength you can [TS]

  fight like he's got everything so don't [TS]

  think his biggest problem is biggest [TS]

  problem is not as powers biggest problem [TS]

  is his personality because you need you [TS]

  want you want to have internal conflict [TS]

  you would think someone with those [TS]

  powers would have inter like the actual [TS]

  Jesus Christ had more internal conflict [TS]

  Superman movies you know to make sure i [TS]

  know and i think you're right i mean i [TS]

  just think in with Batman or you know [TS]

  iron man where it's like all right this [TS]

  is a person who can get hurt and killed [TS]

  I think you know you do want to see [TS]

  internal conflict but there's also an [TS]

  external part of it where Superman's [TS]

  like Superman beats everything right [TS]

  like Superman is just the trump card [TS]

  well in in those in those previous [TS]

  adaptations so often the Superman [TS]

  paragon of virtue who always gets there [TS]

  in the nick of time is different than [TS]

  and I think this is this is a big point [TS]

  that is the reason that a lot of super [TS]

  diehard fans have railed against the [TS]

  movie is the scale of destruction that [TS]

  that the movie gets into we'll get to [TS]

  that but we'll get to that but I want to [TS]

  get a few more things on the origin [TS]

  before we get off it for good one about [TS]

  the the tooth the the JJ Abrams Star [TS]

  Trek's the first to that be the first to [TS]

  and only Jason Star Trek's are both [TS]

  origin stories because the first one is [TS]

  yeah here's how these characters come to [TS]

  be and the second one is you know by the [TS]

  end of the movie they're on their [TS]

  five-year mission right it's just not a [TS]

  retelling greatly never told it and the [TS]

  difference is the differences that i [TS]

  look forward to seeing the adventures of [TS]

  the Star Trek Enterprise crew on their [TS]

  five-year mission because I maybe that's [TS]

  what I expect out of Star Trek or [TS]

  there's enough moving parts but I feel [TS]

  like they have there's so many [TS]

  possibilities that can go to all sorts [TS]

  of different worlds you can have [TS]

  different characters be the focus you [TS]

  can have different things happen you can [TS]

  kill off characters who had some [TS]

  ensemble cast whereas with a single [TS]

  superhero movie you're not going to kill [TS]

  them off because unless you would like [TS]

  you're going to immediately bring them [TS]

  back or something like that and he's [TS]

  going to have some sort of villain and [TS]

  it's going to be the world in crisis and [TS]

  he's going to you know it's like I don't [TS]

  want to see you Superman going to work [TS]

  and doing this job and I would rather [TS]

  see you around each bank robbers right [TS]

  now that I was gonna say the same thing [TS]

  John it which is maybe the reason that [TS]

  they keep telling superhero origin [TS]

  stories is that there aren't any other [TS]

  good i mean i would like to believe [TS]

  there are other good superhero stories [TS]

  to tell [TS]

  but maybe it's much more difficult i [TS]

  mean that like spider-man 2 is an [TS]

  example where there's more but I mean [TS]

  there there are but it can't be it can't [TS]

  be about the plot though it's like world [TS]

  war two movies are not about world war [TS]

  two there about the people who are in [TS]

  world war two so it's super hero movies [TS]

  have to be about the superhero person [TS]

  dealing channel and personal issues with [TS]

  the backdrop of [TS]

  you know this thing this thing this that [TS]

  spider-man 2 is such a great movie will [TS]

  end in spider-man 2 and in intern is [TS]

  like Superman to which he does the same [TS]

  thing right there both cases they sort [TS]

  of like I'm not going to be a hero [TS]

  anymore right and I'm gonna spider-man [TS]

  you know more hours right like Superman [TS]

  does then Superman to as well as it [TS]

  that's that that's the internal struggle [TS]

  I mean it's also again it's becomes kind [TS]

  of not exactly cliche but it is a trope [TS]

  right of the superhero like no I'm [TS]

  putting too many people in danger or [TS]

  whatever I just going to be a normal [TS]

  person as superintendent have that [TS]

  problem this movie I want to stop for a [TS]

  moment to talk about our sponsor yes [TS]

  once again this is becoming a wonderful [TS]

  trendy and uncomfortable as a sponsor [TS]

  and this sponsor is a glue glue is an [TS]

  intranet for your for your work your for [TS]

  your place of employment that you'll [TS]

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  they're a bunch of different services [TS]

  that do things like you know corporate [TS]

  blogs or internal calendars or like a [TS]

  chat room or a twitter-like thing all [TS]

  the wiki all these different kind of [TS]

  things that you can get and set up for [TS]

  your for your work equals all of those [TS]

  things it is blogs and calendars and [TS]

  file sharing and forums and micro blogs [TS]

  and wiki's and all that stuff its social [TS]

  you can comment on any kind of content [TS]

  you can add mention your coworkers [TS]

  you can follow content for updates so [TS]

  it's like a whole social internet for [TS]

  your work you can add on rooms little [TS]

  mini glue is you create an entire like [TS]

  igloo complex and have your own personal [TS]

  igloo fortress of solitude [TS]

  ah Superman tie-in fortress of solitude [TS]

  anyone come on Dan you have to like that [TS]

  i may have left slightly i will just ask [TS]

  you know I like us having sponsors can [TS]

  it be one of those things like when [TS]

  you're in Little League and they put [TS]

  their name on the gallows shirts and the [TS]

  other sponsors name and software on the [TS]

  back and then we all get this week [TS]

  afterwards can yes we can sold already a [TS]

  guy's a clue a clue software will will [TS]

  be buying t-shirts for our softball team [TS]

  and and so fortress of solitude many [TS]

  clues [TS]

  you don't have to be in Canada to use a [TS]

  clue software is available everywhere [TS]

  even where it's warm [TS]

  these igloos won't melt super easy to [TS]

  use [TS]

  the whole thing's drag-and-drop this [TS]

  responsive design Typekit fonts so it [TS]

  looks really great [TS]

  it's secure if you've got somebody in [TS]

  your business [TS]

  I've got a few in mind you say oh no we [TS]

  can't use third-party apps insecure and [TS]

  people read all our important stuff [TS]

  enterprise-grade security so your stuff [TS]

  we stay safe you can start using it [TS]

  right away and here is a great thing [TS]

  about a clue software it is absolutely [TS]

  free to use for up to 10 people so [TS]

  you've got a small workgroup you can [TS]

  just use it go ahead and use it now and [TS]

  then when you've got the like oversized [TS]

  igloo you gotta bring in some more [TS]

  blocks of ice you gotta clicks clear the [TS]

  Moose out and get some more ice out and [TS]

  build up even like a giant igloo or one [TS]

  of those ice hotels like in Sweden [TS]

  twelve dollars per person per for each [TS]

  month for every extra person that you [TS]

  get but it's all of your internet stuff [TS]

  for your for your work and here's how [TS]

  you get it you go to a very special URL [TS]

  generated just for us i think with John [TS]

  siracusa in mind go to igloo [TS]

  software.com / Vader that's right if you [TS]

  don't know how to spell Vader you are [TS]

  listening to the wrong podcast igloo [TS]

  software.com / Vader and you can start [TS]

  building your a glue and Darth Vader's [TS]

  igloo has a little top part and a little [TS]

  bottom part of ice and then they come [TS]

  together and he lives inside that is [TS]

  black black ice [TS]

  no it's white ice and he's the [TS]

  black-clad guy sign outside white icing [TS]

  means I'll ok very good [TS]

  that's right that's that's it igloo [TS]

  software.com / Vader to build Darth [TS]

  Vader's igloo and your own personal [TS]

  business a clip it's an interesting by [TS]

  the way that this summer we got two [TS]

  movies where a classic villain played [TS]

  played by a very interesting actor from [TS]

  about 30 years ago in the second movie [TS]

  in a film series got replayed in a it in [TS]

  a summer movie because Terran stamps [TS]

  General Zod and Superman to is such a [TS]

  great a great character i think it was [TS]

  smart of them to put all the Krypton [TS]

  stuff in one movie here [TS]

  although it is kind of overstuffed and [TS]

  it gives you a direct line between why [TS]

  Superman was sent to earth and why [TS]

  General Zod is angry and I think that's [TS]

  what they tried to do in the original [TS]

  superman and they ended up splitting it [TS]

  into two movies but i like that that [TS]

  they sort of like put it all in here and [TS]

  and try to get out of the way I thought [TS]

  that was interesting i do wonder if [TS]

  people who are diehard Superman fans are [TS]

  upset by some of the canonical changes [TS]

  that are in here like lowest lame [TS]

  figures out you know cause identity it's [TS]

  the other direction she figures out from [TS]

  his mysterious appearances and ends up [TS]

  at his childhood home in Kansas I [TS]

  thought that was interesting and made [TS]

  Lois Lane a little more interesting [TS]

  it's certainly not the canon of Superman [TS]

  but one man or that were freaking out [TS]

  but I thought it was good that might [TS]

  have been my favorite part of the movie [TS]

  because for ages i've been i've been [TS]

  waiting for somebody to not just iterate [TS]

  on Lois Lane being the same dumb broad [TS]

  in the newsroom who she's appealing [TS]

  surprise winner here eight amy adams did [TS]

  not come across as a dummy and everyone [TS]

  else can recognize faces though [TS]

  enforceable that's true the entire what [TS]

  we wanted [TS]

  yeah that is I kept thinking when [TS]

  watching this movie is so we have that [TS]

  scene where where she goes up to the [TS]

  Arctic and then we have guests cameos [TS]

  from two different battlestar galactica [TS]

  actors yeah yeahs America data and he'll [TS]

  oh yeah and so I end so then you know we [TS]

  haven't go on the ship and Amy Adam Lois [TS]

  Lane follows them onto the ship and then [TS]

  she gets shot by the like security [TS]

  system and he has to save her and so I'm [TS]

  sitting there the whole time thinking [TS]

  like as we're doing the lead-up like [TS]

  she's gonna find him in the ship and [TS]

  what's he gonna say like I was like [TS]

  maybe he'll tell her he's a reporter [TS]

  from her and that's how we'll get the [TS]

  Clark Kent ID and then when I you know [TS]

  when when he's trying to heal her right [TS]

  like he cauterizes the wound I think it [TS]

  up so they're going well there's no way [TS]

  she's not going to recognize him if he [TS]

  ever shows up as Clark Kent right [TS]

  because you're like two feet away from [TS]

  this guy if he doesn't look that does [TS]

  not wearing glasses or anything so he's [TS]

  not going to fool you with that that's [TS]

  part of the conceit of the hero of [TS]

  mission of this entire show was that for [TS]

  some reason we can't recognize that [TS]

  money has it may be glamorous than like [TS]

  this part vampire [TS]

  this is the it's the there's the tick [TS]

  character was a Clark Oppenheimer or [TS]

  something worse the hypno glasses [TS]

  yeah yeah so but the thing that i agree [TS]

  i liked the lois lane tracking him down [TS]

  part the the difficulty sort of feeds [TS]

  back into that same comment I made [TS]

  earlier where I think it robs us of a [TS]

  little bit of the Clark Kent setup also [TS]

  i will say this now because you know and [TS]

  I realize this reaches the head towards [TS]

  the end of the movie but is anyone else [TS]

  really concerned that maybe like he [TS]

  didn't actually go to college or have a [TS]

  degree in journalism anything to get [TS]

  hired [TS]

  he's a fraud he's don't nobody checks [TS]

  resume and he's very persuasive and very [TS]

  soon as that stopped any blog i assumed [TS]

  the lowest vouches for him and said well [TS]

  that's that's why would people kept [TS]

  saying but I'm like I don't know like [TS]

  you feel like there's probably a lot of [TS]

  reporters going hungry now because they [TS]

  didn't even a way downhill there i'm [TS]

  just saying they're given jobs away to [TS]

  illegal aliens left and right now he [TS]

  works you i want one more thing in the [TS]

  origins before we leave it for good oh [TS]

  yeah you already had one more time this [TS]

  is my final think it's alright alright [TS]

  so the the trailers really leaned on the [TS]

  the origin story and like the seams with [TS]

  kevin costner and the voice-over and all [TS]

  that other stuff like that and as Dan [TS]

  said the way they cut it together like [TS]

  if you follow the traditional arc that's [TS]

  fine and if you do it well it works [TS]

  really well if you want to go against [TS]

  that traditional story and riff on it [TS]

  you need to be really good and they did [TS]

  not successfully respond and I think it [TS]

  undercut all the things i wanted to see [TS]

  in the movie by chopping up the way they [TS]

  did and I think they chopped it up the [TS]

  way they did because they wanted to get [TS]

  Amy Adams on screen as soon as possible [TS]

  you can't have the whole first half of [TS]

  the movie not feature Amy Adams pcs not [TS]

  grown up yet and he doesn't meet her [TS]

  because she's presently not the same [TS]

  Tennyson some I think that Rob that [TS]

  whole section of the movie of momentum [TS]

  of force I did not like jumping forward [TS]

  adult then remember when you were a kid [TS]

  then remember your adult remember your [TS]

  kid I wanted to because that you didn't [TS]

  didn't work for me i would rather have [TS]

  seen them go traditional chronological [TS]

  he lands on the planet you don't give us [TS]

  a like you don't do the baby holding a [TS]

  car but just go through his is growing [TS]

  up period as it as a gentle ramp into [TS]

  because all those things were mostly [TS]

  good with the kids felt alien he didn't [TS]

  hand but the fact that we kept jumping [TS]

  back and forth it was like I was [TS]

  watching [TS]

  two stories and they did not cut [TS]

  together and it's actually not if I [TS]

  could not agree more i cannot possibly [TS]

  reward they were trying to do too many [TS]

  things to do things as unconventionally [TS]

  as they could and they were just doing [TS]

  it to do it and not doing it because it [TS]

  actually serve the story in the best way [TS]

  to say something about the flashback [TS]

  structure [TS]

  yeah i think the problem with some of it [TS]

  is the flashback is supposed to lend you [TS]

  like I remember this time you're a kid [TS]

  need this thing happened to that really [TS]

  impacted you later my last it's like [TS]

  lost they want to enter cut it like lost [TS]

  but that doesn't yes right doesn't work [TS]

  because the problem is that you already [TS]

  know all like there's nothing surprising [TS]

  and you have to do you have to say with [TS]

  him in the journey like that right [TS]

  talent chronological then you start to [TS]

  identify with him and you feel like [TS]

  you're the the alien kid and you [TS]

  sympathize with him and like that's what [TS]

  you need to do you don't need to go [TS]

  oh but like lost oh by the way here is [TS]

  this scene from the past that informs [TS]

  the current behavior because i lost you [TS]

  you in lost you care about the current [TS]

  situation and in this story you need [TS]

  people to care about your childhood and [TS]

  what it was like you you know and it was [TS]

  just like we didn't care that much about [TS]

  him as an adult and we didn't need to be [TS]

  informed of these things and we weren't [TS]

  tied to the childhood story they were [TS]

  always like flashbacks and we could have [TS]

  gotten vignettes of the childhood stuff [TS]

  and do it in order and and again i know [TS]

  i find myself using a method of [TS]

  argumentation that that seems like stuff [TS]

  that I always complained about and tell [TS]

  people they're idiots for for doing but [TS]

  if they had just done it in order it [TS]

  worked it worked so much better and and [TS]

  trusting the build to work and yes okay [TS]

  the story's been told seven different [TS]

  times but there are different bits of [TS]

  that story that you can tell in [TS]

  different ways that achieves what they [TS]

  were selling in the trailer a lot better [TS]

  than we actually got executed the movie [TS]

  yeah i heard that I like I mean I was [TS]

  super psyched about seeing the trailer I [TS]

  thought it was really well zone so I [TS]

  came back from the movie and I I said [TS]

  something on Twitter we're basically [TS]

  said I was disappointed the movie and a [TS]

  bunch of people who haven't seen it yet [TS]

  because i saw this on the saturday i [TS]

  think that came out said they were [TS]

  really disappointed cuz i like the [TS]

  trailer and I like the trailer 2 and my [TS]

  take on it when i look back at that [TS]

  trailer is they put the best things in [TS]

  the movie in the trailer they did I mean [TS]

  really good friend [TS]

  I'm all kevin costner scenes were in the [TS]

  trail yeah single right and they cut it [TS]

  together really well and they have music [TS]

  and that seemed where he says can I just [TS]

  pretend to be your son and he says you [TS]

  are my son [TS]

  I mean that's a scene that there any [TS]

  parents gonna look at and be like oh my [TS]

  god it's like such a trailer that i [TS]

  didn't her letter because there's like [TS]

  you have been like a first time on [TS]

  camera and you know they need to build [TS]

  up they need to build up to that with [TS]

  him and yeah I agree completely [TS]

  it robbed it of the emotion because in [TS]

  the trailer it does [TS]

  he's got that little crack in his voice [TS]

  and that sells you right there like it's [TS]

  beautiful but they spent all of that [TS]

  sympathetic currency all in the trailer [TS]

  and you've got to have stuff that more [TS]

  women making want to see the movie but [TS]

  then you gotta have more [TS]

  yeah you gotta go somewhere beyond that [TS]

  in the movie itself or people go oh I [TS]

  was in and by the way this is this is my [TS]

  favorite that was my favorite travels [TS]

  past year and my favorite part of the [TS]

  trails were listing them was the one [TS]

  where his mother says they'll kill him [TS]

  and the father says how which is a great [TS]

  line that's followed by the trailer if [TS]

  the movie had seven more of those lines [TS]

  surrounding that it would have been [TS]

  better but just had the one line that I [TS]

  heard before yeah that no they did this [TS]

  so so we're talking about things that [TS]

  would that work and they put the things [TS]

  that worked in the trailer and and I [TS]

  know that we people who really love this [TS]

  movie and maybe love it on uncritically [TS]

  and and just think it's the best will be [TS]

  quite upset by the fact that we've [TS]

  picked apart and complained about a lot [TS]

  of things that are in the first part of [TS]

  the movie [TS]

  make no mistake i enjoyed watching the [TS]

  first part of the movie and it got my [TS]

  hopes up that this was going to be a [TS]

  very good movie that solved a lot of the [TS]

  Superman problems and then came the [TS]

  second half of the movie which I gotta [TS]

  say completely lost any goodwill I had [TS]

  toward it and in the end made me I think [TS]

  dislike it even more than i would have [TS]

  if it had just been kind of pour from [TS]

  the start and hadn't gotten my hopes up [TS]

  i would just wave my hand like a this is [TS]

  just crappy instantly got my hopes up [TS]

  like yeah you know who they're mainly [TS]

  just wanted right decisions they're [TS]

  trying to work around a lot of problems [TS]

  of Superman is a character trying to [TS]

  tell the story in a different way you [TS]

  know that they had those cool things [TS]

  that were in the trailer that we're in [TS]

  this in this movie you know it's not all [TS]

  great but I'm encouraged by it and then [TS]

  we get to the second half we get to [TS]

  General Zod [TS]

  coming to Earth and for me it for me it [TS]

  goes off the rails and I want to talk [TS]

  about General Zod for a little bit i [TS]

  want to talk about michael shannon [TS]

  Michael Shannon an interesting actor in [TS]

  the scenes in on Krypton where he's [TS]

  trying to talk and reason with people I [TS]

  felt like he was having trouble getting [TS]

  the words out I think he actually was I [TS]

  think it's a terrible performance in [TS]

  those scenes I think he's a bad he's [TS]

  being a bad actor and I wondered why did [TS]

  the world did they cast him for this job [TS]

  is not being a bad actor have you seen [TS]

  him on boardwalk empire [TS]

  well I haven't if you if you've seen him [TS]

  on Boardwalk Empire you would recognize [TS]

  the performance because it's like a case [TS]

  where their trade their traits of the [TS]

  actor that come through in their [TS]

  performances [TS]

  it's sort of the opposite of meryl [TS]

  streep i saw me that means sorority girl [TS]

  in that in that viral video up might [TS]

  what I was going to say though is that [TS]

  at the end of the movie when he's kind [TS]

  of a maniac and shouting a lot i like ah [TS]

  that's why they cast him because he's [TS]

  really good at being a menacing maniac [TS]

  and shouting a lot but in the beach but [TS]

  i think i think it's uh I would you put [TS]

  this guy in charge of your military how [TS]

  many things have you seen him in I'm [TS]

  dying I'm dying right now iíve seen him [TS]

  in this movie and in the thing where [TS]

  he's the sorority girl and I like that a [TS]

  lot better than this there was much [TS]

  better performance if you had seen him [TS]

  or you would know you've got to see him [TS]

  take shelter you've got to see him in [TS]

  mud that the thing the thing about [TS]

  Michael Shannon is the reason they cast [TS]

  him in what he was able to do in the [TS]

  movie are totally different things [TS]

  fair enough all i can say is somebody [TS]

  who I'm not gonna I'm not gonna look at [TS]

  the an actor's backstory and in order to [TS]

  judge his performance in the movie and [TS]

  this movie he was a disaster and I would [TS]

  actually say when I was walking on the [TS]

  movie it when my wife and I were talking [TS]

  about it and and I said remember when we [TS]

  were talking about how lucky the star [TS]

  trek people were that they got Benedict [TS]

  Cumberbatch because he did a really good [TS]

  job [TS]

  well this is what happens when you get [TS]

  an actor who doesn't do a very good job [TS]

  better which character the ad or the [TS]

  dialogue because it's bad dialogue to I [TS]

  think right i mean it's not always the [TS]

  actors fault if they got miscast but [TS]

  this performance doesn't work for me i [TS]

  think it's i think it's awful i mean i [TS]

  just i think the characters awful the [TS]

  dialogue is awful and the performances [TS]

  awful what what I'll say is i'm not i'm [TS]

  not disagreeing with you that [TS]

  that as a whole piece it doesn't work [TS]

  what I'm getting at is that iíve I put [TS]

  a whole lot more of it on the miscasting [TS]

  miss framing side of things because [TS]

  Michael Shannon is an actor who is the [TS]

  king of loci and and the reason that I [TS]

  site that other stuff that he's been in [TS]

  is that them transporting him into this [TS]

  movie in this role in theory under the [TS]

  most i yield ideal circumstances [TS]

  possible in theory he could absolutely [TS]

  kill that role in theory but in [TS]

  execution this is a guy who friend of [TS]

  mine interviewed once and asked him if [TS]

  he had gotten into blu-ray yet he was [TS]

  like what's what's that sounds like some [TS]

  kind of like Godzilla monster laser yeah [TS]

  sort of laser a know he like he had lead [TS]

  they had no idea what the guy was [TS]

  talking about when you surround a guy [TS]

  who is you know like a a hardcore [TS]

  theater actor Loki dude is all about [TS]

  character working process and all that [TS]

  kind of stuff and not all of the green [TS]

  screen motion-captured dot BS he allayed [TS]

  they say it's more it's more not that [TS]

  they put him out of his depth but that [TS]

  they transplanted them into a world that [TS]

  just didn't make sense to mesh him with [TS]

  I mean if the the big the big thing is [TS]

  this is the first time that he's done [TS]

  something of this scale of the scope of [TS]

  this filmmaking style and it would be it [TS]

  would be like putting John Diehl good in [TS]

  300 i would watch that movie i think it [TS]

  makes a difference that is what what [TS]

  other things you've seen even though [TS]

  because jason has seen but Benedict [TS]

  Cumberbatch in Sherlock right of things [TS]

  and if you like i said if you see this [TS]

  actor in his other roles he is like one [TS]

  of those actors who has personality [TS]

  characteristic can't help but show [TS]

  through in the roles that like I said [TS]

  it's the opposite of Meryl Streep who [TS]

  appears to have no personality of her [TS]

  own when she's in a role she totally [TS]

  inhabits it right he and his thing and [TS]

  the roles that he plays is simmering [TS]

  repressed feelings that he tries to keep [TS]

  down but that inevitably come out in a [TS]

  burst of rage right that is that is [TS]

  maybe it's his real personality but he [TS]

  plays lots of roles like that and he [TS]

  plays them very well like that's where [TS]

  you started this the sorority girl was [TS]

  it is a great example right where you [TS]

  and [TS]

  the beginning of the movie he's trying [TS]

  to keep that stuff tamp down which may [TS]

  not be appropriate for General Zod right [TS]

  I but his weird personality during that [TS]

  point that looks like bad acting is just [TS]

  him doing that thing he does when it's [TS]

  someone trying to keep it together when [TS]

  they have just incredible raging at the [TS]

  end of the movies when the rage comes [TS]

  out I don't think that's the appropriate [TS]

  character for General Zod but that's [TS]

  what he was doing and in the movie and [TS]

  if you would see in other roles i was [TS]

  completely comfortable with him doing [TS]

  that but I kept thinking is he the right [TS]

  guy for this he's not maybe I'll take [TS]

  enough he's not maybe menacing enough i [TS]

  don't feel like he would be repressing I [TS]

  feel like he would be more confident [TS]

  because he's always like in his other [TS]

  roles less confident and that's why he's [TS]

  repressing this and that's not doesn't [TS]

  fit with General Zod and everything so I [TS]

  don't fault is acting I fought the [TS]

  casting and yes of course the scripture [TS]

  in the dialogue were not we're not [TS]

  helping him I felt the haircut and the [TS]

  goatee both of those i thought were not [TS]

  scary [TS]

  the girl the girl was really good though [TS]

  I liked her oh yeah she was good evenin [TS]

  yeah i should say I mean when we talk [TS]

  about acting I mean you can never tell [TS]

  what the movie so complicated thing that [TS]

  I can say I don't like Michael Shannon [TS]

  in this movie it may it may or may not [TS]

  be his fault because it's a whole [TS]

  confluence of things including the [TS]

  casting an actor you know can only do so [TS]

  much with apart if he was miscast he can [TS]

  try his best and he it's still not [TS]

  welcome across you know but but it [TS]

  doesn't i can say this i think this is [TS]

  one of the big not the biggest but one [TS]

  of the big liabilities in this movie is [TS]

  I don't think he's the right guy for [TS]

  this part i'm not sure who is but I just [TS]

  don't think he's the right guy I want to [TS]

  flip this for one second and say that I [TS]

  I thought I really thought Henry Cavill [TS]

  was actually pretty good [TS]

  I just didn't think they gave me [TS]

  anything get do I know he was he was [TS]

  good and if if he fit the role well it's [TS]

  just again i don't think they give him [TS]

  enough to do there's only three or four [TS]

  points where he's got like so he's got [TS]

  the scene it's interesting earlier than [TS]

  later right here always got the scene in [TS]

  the restaurant where you like defends [TS]

  the waitress right then he walks away [TS]

  and you've got the one seen I like to [TS]

  sing with him at the very end where he's [TS]

  talking to the general and you know he [TS]

  has a little bit of personality there [TS]

  and the scene where he's in the [TS]

  interrogation room with a met with Lois [TS]

  Lane also they're like little spots with [TS]

  him because again we talked about this [TS]

  earlier with the problem Superman being [TS]

  like well he's you know if he's very [TS]

  good e2 shoes is really boring but like [TS]

  I thought [TS]

  all was well cast he looks like looks [TS]

  like the piano lesson one to squeeze in [TS]

  the fence railing like that and yeah [TS]

  that was great [TS]

  looks like the adult actor and [TS]

  everything just just a shortage of stuff [TS]

  for them to do [TS]

  yeah the problem with him and the [TS]

  problem with a lot of this movie is this [TS]

  sounds weird but like this one of the [TS]

  first thing I seen in a long time I felt [TS]

  like there was not enough script like [TS]

  the gentlemen we have worked on the [TS]

  graters because the words that were you [TS]

  weren't always terrible some scenes were [TS]

  hit something for mrs. Bigelow just [TS]

  should be more script there i was [TS]

  thinking of you while I was watching [TS]

  this movie because there is a scene that [TS]

  is very much like you described episode [TS]

  one where characters are actually just [TS]

  saying their motivations out loud for it [TS]

  I i will do I i am i'm here to destroy [TS]

  this world because then Krypton will [TS]

  come back and that is what i want to do [TS]

  so that is all I'm going to do that and [TS]

  and know the results there's you're a [TS]

  monster Zod and I will stop you [TS]

  oh I am the unmovable force i am the [TS]

  unmovable force that will move you do is [TS]

  I did somebody leds x like zack snyder [TS]

  rewrite parts of the script or what [TS]

  happened here you let it burn half the [TS]

  pages apparently let's talk about let's [TS]

  talk about the fights they're too big [TS]

  fights there's a fight that in a small [TS]

  it was it only do I didn't say it was [TS]

  either one giant fight or thousands of [TS]

  smith that's oh ok now now they set [TS]

  apart what are you talking about you [TS]

  talking about the movable objects we [TS]

  talk about zack snyder i did get the [TS]

  sense that this was the equivalent of [TS]

  somebody with to action figures just [TS]

  kind of go and you know when i get each [TS]

  other [TS]

  oh that's great ungu save you lose me [TS]

  you got to have the coconut you're [TS]

  banging them together we get you I'm [TS]

  gonna get you and then what happens when [TS]

  you whack to action figures against each [TS]

  other [TS]

  nothing because they're just plastic and [TS]

  nothing happens when you have a giant [TS]

  special-effects budget so so everything [TS]

  but so the fact that nothing happened [TS]

  isn't the problem it's the property [TS]

  damage [TS]

  well it's it's there's two problems [TS]

  first there's a a dramatic problem with [TS]

  these fights which is you have to [TS]

  invincible or or in the case of a [TS]

  smallville battle 3i guess invincible [TS]

  people and they they beat the crap out [TS]

  of each other and buildings were damaged [TS]

  whole cities are destroyed and we'll get [TS]

  to that but but the boring part people [TS]

  have some people when i said that this [TS]

  movie was boring say what do you mean [TS]

  there was all [TS]

  action like you know people beating on [TS]

  each other when literally you can't see [TS]

  any effect where it's like Zod and [TS]

  Superman go at it and they they go at it [TS]

  so hard and they aren't bloodied they [TS]

  are mean occasionally there they like [TS]

  fall down and then they get up and kind [TS]

  of shake their head but there's there's [TS]

  no sense that that uh you know like a [TS]

  video game there's like a little power [TS]

  bar and the power bars going down there [TS]

  is absolutely no sense that we're [TS]

  progressing and so instead it's just [TS]

  like I don't even know what i'm watching [TS]

  this vid the to what end is this fight [TS]

  happening able nobody asking for it [TS]

  doesn't make sense because it's like all [TS]

  right I punched him it didn't seem to do [TS]

  anything but if I punch him harder maybe [TS]

  that what not didn't do anything [TS]

  let me try again what if i throw my like [TS]

  it and there's a point where you feel [TS]

  like they were just get really tired and [TS]

  just be like alright let's just like [TS]

  five minute break i guess they don't get [TS]

  tired there's get bored but they have [TS]

  like a tool that using this movie is you [TS]

  just put the people Superman cares about [TS]

  in peril like that's the usual move is [TS]

  you know you get Lois Lane you get his [TS]

  mother whatever and then something is [TS]

  finally expected yeah Superman can't get [TS]

  hurt right hand he saved you know [TS]

  whoever ready I'm not see I mean that's [TS]

  cheap ploy but at least that's something [TS]

  but yet they're just hitting each other [TS]

  and everything especially since suit [TS]

  both of them seem motivated by anger as [TS]

  if like if I just get angry or when I do [TS]

  this it will have a different effect but [TS]

  I don't see how you get away from the [TS]

  property damage because that I think [TS]

  undercuts to trans character yeah [TS]

  in general and for the end for the [TS]

  earlier part of this movie so so much [TS]

  that it just right [TS]

  hey there's a great a great review i [TS]

  read this morning by a Scott Lynch the [TS]

  fantasy author where he wrote a very [TS]

  long review of man of steel and I think [TS]

  he nailed this perfectly like you know [TS]

  this is Superman right you're not going [TS]

  to he would move the fight he would go [TS]

  somewhere else where people would not [TS]

  into a basket over the ocean or movement [TS]

  he would not engage you know this is the [TS]

  big point of contention that that I [TS]

  think has more than any other element of [TS]

  movie people tied up in knots one way or [TS]

  another and the the reason that I i [TS]

  mentioned to you Jason that I think I [TS]

  think I came I came I ended up coming [TS]

  down on the naco side of things which [TS]

  are making a lot of assumptions about [TS]

  Andy's opinion he said that it had [TS]

  problems but that it was what a super [TS]

  hero movie was supposed to be which it [TS]

  as I said to my wife in the car driving [TS]

  back from dinner tonight [TS]

  this movie is so vastly inferior to the [TS]

  Avengers but he's not here to defend it [TS]

  so so go ahead myself so for me for me [TS]

  the the thing that happens with these [TS]

  fights that is so counter to what our [TS]

  expectations should be Superman is that [TS]

  no he does not move the fight to site B [TS]

  that doesn't have a bunch of helpless [TS]

  people in the way and so on and so forth [TS]

  but the framing the movie sets it up [TS]

  such that well Superman hasn't really [TS]

  had a fight of this scale to deal with [TS]

  and as unsatisfying as it is to a lot of [TS]

  people some much more than others [TS]

  I'm unsatisfying me that there there's [TS]

  all this destruction all this death all [TS]

  of these innocence that are dying not [TS]

  near him or because of stuff that's [TS]

  happening with him but because of him [TS]

  because he's somehow not able to save [TS]

  them to some extent but he's killing me [TS]

  he's not saving them yet really killing [TS]

  them life crashing by punching is odd [TS]

  through a building filled with people [TS]

  all those people in the building by this [TS]

  this is the massive the massive [TS]

  consequence moment that we haven't [TS]

  gotten Superman origin stories [TS]

  previously where he is he is not he's [TS]

  witty he's willfully not paying [TS]

  attention to the amount of destruction [TS]

  to consolidate our movie that's the [TS]

  movie you wanted to see but that's not [TS]

  the movie they put on the screen because [TS]

  I'm the screen they had him occasionally [TS]

  saving some token person to remind you [TS]

  that Superman and on the screen they [TS]

  didn't have him looking at any point [TS]

  saying oh my God look what I've done [TS]

  I've killed half the city they like they [TS]

  didn't do that they didn't they didn't [TS]

  put it in the movie it's not that he [TS]

  didn't take it to site B we never saw [TS]

  him try to take it suicide or rear-end [TS]

  Miller is rare consequently could never [TS]

  write read it he never acted like that [TS]

  but they like i said in the middle of [TS]

  the fight they have him try to like save [TS]

  some random person and they had like [TS]

  that the Daily Planet people be in in [TS]

  stupid peril briefly because the [TS]

  smashing machine is coming and it was [TS]

  like like what's the point of that some [TS]

  and Superman going off to the side and [TS]

  saving somebody depending on your bench [TS]

  you're like okay [TS]

  oh I wish she did more of that I wish he [TS]

  had I wish she was saving people like [TS]

  the ultimate so that's one way to go the [TS]

  other way to go is that's not what I [TS]

  think they should be doing here instead [TS]

  they should have him losing control of [TS]

  his power and destroying everybody [TS]

  regretting it if he's gonna be [TS]

  regretting it why is he taking time out [TS]

  to save some talking character in the [TS]

  middle of a fight because like they were [TS]

  there working at odds I don't feel like [TS]

  that the movie you want to see my sensei [TS]

  was it wasn't on the screen it was in [TS]

  your head and that's the thing is is [TS]

  where i wanted that moment of regret to [TS]

  come by the end of this movie as [TS]

  supremely counterintuitive as it sounds [TS]

  I feel like they're setting that up as [TS]

  the inciting incident of the next movie [TS]

  which i think is ridiculous and terrible [TS]

  and the most corporate way to make [TS]

  movies that makes this movie a failure [TS]

  but they had their setup for the second [TS]

  movie to be a residential insulation [TS]

  start the dark knight where it's like oh [TS]

  now they hate me but I had to do it to [TS]

  save the same exact traditionally went [TS]

  again there's no indication as an [TS]

  international its rounded them it's not [TS]

  in the movie no I I had a bunch of [TS]

  people who mentioned this to me on [TS]

  Twitter and I and I have to have to keep [TS]

  saying it's not as long as it's not [TS]

  there you can you can you imagine that [TS]

  your was really shy and moving platen [TS]

  tour he was trying to save people [TS]

  whatever the fact is the to action [TS]

  fingers bang up against each other and i [TS]

  gotta say it I movie with this scale of [TS]

  destruction the Avengers just like this [TS]

  to any time you have building [TS]

  destruction on this level in an urban [TS]

  setting [TS]

  it's gonna be 911 in people's minds [TS]

  people know how many people died in [TS]

  scenarios like this and although the [TS]

  Avengers did a lot of property damage [TS]

  this one goes I mean they essentially [TS]

  nuke blocks of Metropolis in this movie [TS]

  and what's worse is in the Avengers [TS]

  they're trying to stop it in Superman he [TS]

  is everything it and they're causing [TS]

  whole buildings to collapse around them [TS]

  and and I kept waiting for the it [TS]

  wow this is really dark is there going [TS]

  to be a payoff and in the end no it's [TS]

  sort of like Superman will get your [TS]

  feelings if he sees odd burn this little [TS]

  family and so then he breaks his neck [TS]

  which is a whole other story about [TS]

  Superman killing somebody which is not a [TS]

  Superman kind of thing to do i yeah that [TS]

  doesn't bother me I oh I popularly as [TS]

  much I mean it doesn't bother me nearly [TS]

  as much as the as the thousands tens of [TS]

  thousands of people who died in this [TS]

  fight because these two guys couldn't [TS]

  take it elsewhere i take it out ride [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  no fighting here because they just [TS]

  decided to beat on each other and it [TS]

  didn't matter that the humans were all [TS]

  dying [TS]

  them which completely undercut Superman [TS]

  scary and that family that family up [TS]

  against the wall by the way is the [TS]

  second incident in recent memory in [TS]

  which people in peril in a movie could [TS]

  have been saved by casually walking in a [TS]

  different direction [TS]

  yeah other one being prometheus yes yeah [TS]

  well this movie had a Prometheus moment [TS]

  to work like that building is coming to [TS]

  the Daily Planet building is coming down [TS]

  Barry White go to the side and he does [TS]

  finally go to the side but it was having [TS]

  our exponent laser Ray's walk casually [TS]

  to your left there was a little trouble [TS]

  there it's like jump over the rubble you [TS]

  could walk forward five steps then take [TS]

  a left your fine said we could just [TS]

  cowered together and hope the Superman [TS]

  personalized here here's the thing i [TS]

  gotta-i gotta talk about the death thing [TS]

  for a minute maybe I'm jumping head but [TS]

  i gotta bring this up because this [TS]

  bothered me and not just from the [TS]

  perspective of ok you know Superman he [TS]

  doesn't kill people and that's kind of a [TS]

  central tenet it bothers me for two [TS]

  reasons one [TS]

  well the main reason being it's unearned [TS]

  there's nothing but all of the advice he [TS]

  gets is don't tell anybody because like [TS]

  the like try to hurt you write like his [TS]

  dad keeps telling like maybe you should [TS]

  reveal yourself and his dad told him [TS]

  don't engage right he's already engaged [TS]

  by this point he is literally through [TS]

  and harder every single building he can [TS]

  find a metropolis by that point he has [TS]

  already overcome what should have been [TS]

  the difficult decision which is do I [TS]

  fight back right the the issue is not [TS]

  his dad's not like don't kill people [TS]

  because like you know we kind of get [TS]

  that one it's ingrained is that is no [TS]

  you don't need to you know you don't [TS]

  need to get involved in a conflict right [TS]

  you're better than that and that's the [TS]

  Superman thing event you know like more [TS]

  than anything is like you know you can [TS]

  wipe the floor with you guys you know [TS]

  don't you you are better than that and [TS]

  so the killing felt it off handed and [TS]

  dumb and like you know it to me [TS]

  especially having and I mentioned this [TS]

  in our superhero drafters that we [TS]

  recorded some point you listen to me [TS]

  listen to your future for our house that [TS]

  I've been watching a lot of the justice [TS]

  league cartoon and they deal with this [TS]

  same issue in that and they deal with it [TS]

  way better which is that Superman [TS]

  eventually like in a in a parallel [TS]

  universe [TS]

  Superman kills Lex Luthor because he [TS]

  gets to the point where is like I just [TS]

  keep putting him away like it you know [TS]

  in jail or whatever and it just keeps [TS]

  getting out and beating the system and [TS]

  sooner or later the riders made him do [TS]

  it eventually [TS]

  can I question the logic to which is up [TS]

  until now these guys I i find it done [TS]

  clear what really kills a Kryptonian [TS]

  when they're on earth [TS]

  I mean there's the gallon and who is [TS]

  killed because she loses her mask and it [TS]

  makes her all weird I thought that [TS]

  didn't kill them or is it because she [TS]

  got like hit when her mask was off and [TS]

  then sod again these guys do so much [TS]

  damage to each other except they do no [TS]

  damage right well broken login and [TS]

  MacGuffins but that's what does it but [TS]

  then you could break his neck in the end [TS]

  so that's the one thing that you can do [TS]

  so when that happened I was like oh I [TS]

  guess he can die by a broken neck in his [TS]

  bones aren't invulnerable like the rest [TS]

  of it and hated and solar charge up to [TS]

  full capacity to use the battery analogy [TS]

  yeah or the Ultraman Alice she is [TS]

  outside the outside was involved but it [TS]

  hadn't already gone through too well and [TS]

  then we get back to my same problem that [TS]

  i mentioned with russell crowe at the [TS]

  top which is like this guy is like the [TS]

  cream of the crop of the Warriors and [TS]

  some kid who you know didn't even grow [TS]

  up on Krypton in theory can be done but [TS]

  he's got he was the natural birth and [TS]

  he's not inferior like the machine [TS]

  that's the whole you know it's what I [TS]

  certainly not reach anything made by [TS]

  machine is inferior to the natural one [TS]

  so it's going to be the kid was born the [TS]

  right way he's jesus and let's let's be [TS]

  clear we haven't even talked to me even [TS]

  barely know about that is your 23 years [TS]

  old and that when he falls out of the [TS]

  spaceship he doesn't have the ross and [TS]

  sits in the church in front of the [TS]

  stained-glass window of Jesus at [TS]

  Gethsemane no less yeah oh yeah you know [TS]

  hero with a thousand faces and [TS]

  everything now Jason and I like like a [TS]

  i-i-i interjected I think broken logic [TS]

  and MacGuffins is is the way that all of [TS]

  that stuff works they contradicted so [TS]

  much of the stuff that they set up [TS]

  themselves and stuff that they didn't [TS]

  even set up terrific Lee clearly and it [TS]

  just seemed like it was serving serving [TS]

  a function of the plot that you know [TS]

  well at this point so-and-so has to die [TS]

  somehow so we're just gonna use a [TS]

  science thing and harbor [TS]

  yeah we're going to use the science [TS]

  thing and the science thing is going to [TS]

  make alien person go buy it and some [TS]

  people were there was a great debate [TS]

  when we talk about star trek into [TS]

  darkness and a lot of people were [TS]

  complaining about the plot holes and and [TS]

  you know i'm sure there are plot holes [TS]

  in this movie to a plenty but again if [TS]

  you [TS]

  enjoying it kind of doesn't matter and [TS]

  my problem with this movie is that is [TS]

  that I I didn't take that ride because i [TS]

  kept getting jarred out of it by these [TS]

  things that that frustrated me and they [TS]

  weren't just about the plot imagination [TS]

  is not working but it's like this isn't [TS]

  explained i don't know what i'm watching [TS]

  I don't know why what I mean it's like [TS]

  there's I'm gonna watch them fight until [TS]

  the movie decides they shouldn't fight [TS]

  anymore and that's not i like some [TS]

  internally consistent explanation for [TS]

  why they're fighting and why the fight [TS]

  ends and I you know I never really got [TS]

  one that was satisfying to me that [TS]

  incumbent combined with this this movie [TS]

  wins an award for me for most number of [TS]

  good actors squandered in crappy light [TS]

  side roles get through north and [TS]

  laurence fishburne's why is Lawrence but [TS]

  I mean he's in there baby for another [TS]

  movie it's so you see how much weight [TS]

  he's put on and well yeah it doesn't [TS]

  matter he still great actor but they [TS]

  give him nothing to do richard schiff [TS]

  gets like three scenes of light science [TS]

  jargon look Lois Lane has like five [TS]

  lines I mean it seems like nobody had a [TS]

  lot of scenery chewing lines in fact it [TS]

  seemed like the people the beginning of [TS]

  the movie on Krypton had more lines with [TS]

  their you know and that was not that was [TS]

  in consequence well and then there's the [TS]

  issue of I mean maybe it's because I'm a [TS]

  writer and I'm a fan of good writing you [TS]

  but like there's not if you if you like [TS]

  what's your favorite quote from this [TS]

  movie like the Batman movies i think [TS]

  even have you know they have like good [TS]

  lines right you know there's something [TS]

  there's some humor there's you know some [TS]

  jobs here in the area of humor was a [TS]

  problem this yeah there's very little [TS]

  humor there's very little in the way of [TS]

  dialogue that you're like what [TS]

  when there's more humor in a Nolan [TS]

  Batman movies you know you're the most [TS]

  damning thing I can say about this that [TS]

  it just occurred to me but I was [TS]

  thinking about the action scenes is that [TS]

  the action scene in superman returns the [TS]

  pretty much universally reviled earlier [TS]

  Superman reboot where heat where he [TS]

  saves that with the jetliner is going [TS]

  down [TS]

  oh yeah example that action scene was [TS]

  better than any of the action scenes in [TS]

  this movie green obviously not just [TS]

  because it was interesting dynamically [TS]

  and you know like a well-executed action [TS]

  scene but because it showed Superman [TS]

  like what they were trying to this movie [TS]

  it showed Superman not quite sure how to [TS]

  be Superman and show the difficulty of [TS]

  so what you're Superman is still [TS]

  actually not that easy to save people [TS]

  within its physics is hard [TS]

  which is supposed to be Superman [TS]

  character so here is the i mean i know [TS]

  there was it was supposed to be the post [TS]

  Christopher Reeve Superman but it read [TS]

  more like inexperienced Superman not [TS]

  quite either knowing you're remembering [TS]

  how to do the Superman thing and it's [TS]

  actually pretty hard to do so you had [TS]

  you had the same thing where like oh [TS]

  this is Superman for the first time [TS]

  deciding to be Superman fighting and not [TS]

  knowing you're not supposed to knock [TS]

  over buildings well here he was trying [TS]

  to save people in a plane the plane is [TS]

  coming apart he's gonna try to save [TS]

  people he's not endanger his main [TS]

  dangerous i'm gonna screw up this rescue [TS]

  i'm not going to save these people and [TS]

  when it seemed in superman returns is [TS]

  better than your action scenes in this [TS]

  movie there's real problems here credit [TS]

  that's the death 10 first 10 minutes of [TS]

  that movie is you know it goes downhill [TS]

  pretty rapidly after that man i don't [TS]

  get all the superman returns hate like I [TS]

  don't like it that much when i saw it [TS]

  the first time and it seems like I've [TS]

  been trained to dislike it more it's a [TS]

  little boring but I haven't I haven't [TS]

  you know I haven't seen it again since i [TS]

  saw the maybe it's uneven but like I [TS]

  look at it more family now having seen [TS]

  this one burn well plus it was a it was [TS]

  an homage to those movies that I [TS]

  remember from family from when I was a [TS]

  kid and this is a reboot and and you [TS]

  know an exact you know we're running out [TS]

  of time but zack snyder is a problem [TS]

  director he he [TS]

  and I'll wewe didn't want to start a lot [TS]

  for director you know he's pretty as a [TS]

  menace [TS]

  menace [TS]

  must be stopped he's he died i hate to [TS]

  say he's kinda like the superhero genre [TS]

  is michael bay but he come on that's ok [TS]

  mental I know it's that's harsh even for [TS]

  me 300 was good right [TS]

  I apologize to Michael Shannon's mom and [TS]

  zack snyder's terrible things I've said [TS]

  about them i would i would take the good [TS]

  and the bad what you just said about [TS]

  comparing michael bay because when he [TS]

  excels at is the iconic look of stuff [TS]

  but like what what Dan and John were [TS]

  saying there's there's there's barely [TS]

  any dialogue involved it's this is [TS]

  iconic shot of lois lane and hear ya man [TS]

  saving her and here's iconic shot of [TS]

  this and all the framing of it he has [TS]

  bad tendencies I mean he takes some some [TS]

  he's working with some fairly [TS]

  intelligent people like David Boyer and [TS]

  John and christopher nolan and yet I get [TS]

  this feeling that like when zack snyder [TS]

  walks into the room everybody's IQ drops [TS]

  20 points [TS]

  she's got that weird thing where he's [TS]

  got that weird instinct to say you know [TS]

  what I'm going to try and put a [TS]

  different spin on this but it's really [TS]

  clumsy and ham fisted he's got because [TS]

  like what watchman needed a little more [TS]

  darkness at the end and Superman would [TS]

  you know needed a little more and [TS]

  lightness and subtext little less text I [TS]

  mean and it was one of those things [TS]

  where it's like every time he takes the [TS]

  properties like not i don't think it's [TS]

  quite good i gotta put my stamp on it or [TS]

  whatever or he just thinks he's being [TS]

  clever and he's not being clever like he [TS]

  doesn't really really broadly and [TS]

  obviously when he tries to throw a twist [TS]

  in and it's just sort of like yeah you [TS]

  didn't commit to that though you just [TS]

  you changed like you you you held true [TS]

  to the ideals for like ninety percent of [TS]

  the thing I mean change ten percent but [TS]

  you just like you flipped it like a [TS]

  hundred eighty degrees thinking that [TS]

  would make you clever and what it just [TS]

  makes is disjoint it and it to your [TS]

  point and the thing the thing that I [TS]

  kept thinking was he decides to do less [TS]

  is more in exactly the wrong places in a [TS]

  person without them precisely the wrong [TS]

  places where up it in the design [TS]

  Superman exchange you know the euro [TS]

  monster not going to stop you because [TS]

  I'm Superman you know the the so corny [TS]

  it wouldn't have been in the nineteen [TS]

  fifties adventures of superman shirt [TS]

  I'll chair they could have done less is [TS]

  more with you know it with with with [TS]

  giving Zod forwards to say and having [TS]

  Superman's response just be no and then [TS]

  they start hitting each other like [TS]

  action figures again and that would have [TS]

  played a whole lot better than now i am [TS]

  going to declare my intent and act on my [TS]

  intention ah but you need to have you [TS]

  need to front-load the talking you need [TS]

  to have talky talky talky so that when [TS]

  the fighting comes everyone's motivation [TS]

  and hang-ups and what's at stake is [TS]

  clear because you did all the talking [TS]

  before like the lowest relationship with [TS]

  him like they didn't they said likes [TS]

  five words to each other as in by the [TS]

  end of the movie doesn't make any sense [TS]

  you rolling my eyes at that point is [TS]

  it's like uh I mean you're going over [TS]

  the fact that shorthand that it's [TS]

  superman and lois lane but like you [TS]

  cannot earn that either [TS]

  ya know she kisses everybody who [TS]

  cauterizes her with her with us [TS]

  here's your stuff for me is that their [TS]

  version of giving us enough Clark was [TS]

  not the version of giving us enough [TS]

  Clark that I think makes it work [TS]

  cohesively all around in the best way [TS]

  where the and it's setting aside the [TS]

  whole journalist thing and how that's [TS]

  just kind of a grace note at the end the [TS]

  duality of the character is just it's [TS]

  it's explored in a different way then i [TS]

  think is the reason that it's worked [TS]

  archetypal e in seventeen thousand [TS]

  different retellings of this origin [TS]

  story or the last 75 years but i do like [TS]

  that they tried something different and [TS]

  I I don't that doesn't it doesn't bother [TS]

  me i kinda give it I kind of get a kick [TS]

  out of that [TS]

  it's the it's the it's the noble failure [TS]

  thing i think which is like yeah he [TS]

  really tried he just did you know like [TS]

  great a for effort but you didn't [TS]

  execute well and and and again you know [TS]

  I i don't think that my opinion is [TS]

  exactly what Andy's was but in Nevada [TS]

  not what we're well here's the thing is [TS]

  where I agree with him where I very much [TS]

  agree with him I wanted to sum up [TS]

  everybody's taken the movie so why don't [TS]

  we you you get the first crack [TS]

  ok alright good and then everybody can [TS]

  contradict me and talking on to go first [TS]

  it's our show [TS]

  Tresckow first in in the this is this is [TS]

  how a superhero movie is made [TS]

  ok littered with issues that we have [TS]

  with the cannon alterations that were [TS]

  made [TS]

  issues with characterization issues with [TS]

  massive opportunities just not taken to [TS]

  flesh out different characters and all [TS]

  this stuff but we will have a thousand [TS]

  of these different microscopic arguments [TS]

  about different elements of the film [TS]

  then there are the bigger issues where [TS]

  in my heart of hearts the way that [TS]

  they've been setting this stuff up in [TS]

  the way they talk about it in the press [TS]

  yes i have imagined a beginning to the [TS]

  second movie that probably should have [TS]

  ended up at the end of this movie to [TS]

  make it less like Superman is totally ok [TS]

  that he murdered all of these thousands [TS]

  of people and actually your comes out [TS]

  and says what we're all saying here [TS]

  that's not that exact that's exactly the [TS]

  setup and that's exactly what they kind [TS]

  of talked their way toward in addition [TS]

  to you know green-lighting the next man [TS]

  of steel movie and moving toward it very [TS]

  quickly they're not doing separate [TS]

  movies for other major DC heroes they're [TS]

  going to do the Justice League movie and [TS]

  let them split off of that for me the [TS]

  reason that it works in terms of what [TS]

  they're trying to setup and the stories [TS]

  that they are trying to tell is setting [TS]

  aside how personally invested i am with [TS]

  all the stuff that I think they ripped [TS]

  off or didn't do as well as a kid or [TS]

  opportunities where well if I were [TS]

  writing the movie premiere [TS]

  I think they are setting themselves up [TS]

  for placing these characters in the [TS]

  modern day with consequences that for [TS]

  the love of God if they do not do [TS]

  something with the consequences of of of [TS]

  kal-el doing what he does in the climax [TS]

  of the movie you know they don't do that [TS]

  well then then everything that I'm [TS]

  saying all the support that I'm trying [TS]

  to give them is totally lost [TS]

  that's what you're saying is that you [TS]

  you liked this movie as a strategy by [TS]

  the movie studio but not actually I mean [TS]

  you're I don't hear you saying you like [TS]

  the movie you're saying you like how [TS]

  they have strategically placed their [TS]

  franchise it i like how they [TS]

  strategically played the chess pieces so [TS]

  that the overlong Krypton thing that [TS]

  sets up the kind of space weird stuff [TS]

  that Marvel's having to tack on at the [TS]

  end and explain it yeah there's a bunch [TS]

  of mystical wacky crap ok I i don't [TS]

  disagree with all of that but I come [TS]

  back to is this movie a good actually a [TS]

  good movie or is it just a franchise [TS]

  player then your mind is this a good [TS]

  move [TS]

  b or is it just an interesting strategic [TS]

  move [TS]

  I think it's a good movie with major [TS]

  character flaws that i like despite [TS]

  itself [TS]

  all right you went first [TS]

  now I'm conflicted I'm conflicted but i [TS]

  liked it [TS]

  all right Dan I don't have the same kind [TS]

  of faith and maybe just cuz I i mean i-i [TS]

  so much of it to me comes back to this [TS]

  idea of in the word in ethnic the words [TS]

  that I hear John you so many times it's [TS]

  just not earned right like there's so [TS]

  much stuff in here that's like you want [TS]

  to do a paint-by-numbers Superman movie [TS]

  and so you gotta check the boxes and you [TS]

  got to have this in that he's gotta fly [TS]

  he's gotta have Lois Lane he's gotta you [TS]

  know be all good and everything you have [TS]

  Krypton all that and it just it felt [TS]

  like I wanted there to be a more [TS]

  cohesive it wasn't just that I wanted to [TS]

  eat the characters in the modern age I [TS]

  wanted the storytelling to come into the [TS]

  modern age because there is a way that [TS]

  movies are made now and it's different [TS]

  from the way that movies were made in [TS]

  the seventies when they made their for [TS]

  the christopher reeve Superman movies [TS]

  and so you want to see the sort of [TS]

  modern sensibilities in the same way [TS]

  that I think we thought we'd like to see [TS]

  casino royale as we mentioned earlier [TS]

  was very much a james bond for the two [TS]

  thousands rather than a James Bond from [TS]

  the sixties or seventies there's a [TS]

  different flavor there's a different [TS]

  tone it's got to be grittier to a [TS]

  certain extent because we you know [TS]

  you've got such savvy movie watchers now [TS]

  as opposed to 30 or 40 years ago and I [TS]

  felt that it just didn't it executed [TS]

  poorly on a lot of these and as much as [TS]

  I really wanted to like a lot of the [TS]

  ingredients it came together in a way [TS]

  that just ended up being kind of [TS]

  unsatisfactory I mean that my favorite [TS]

  scenes from the movie are probably the [TS]

  last two scenes in the movie which is [TS]

  the the scene where he confronts the [TS]

  journey blows up the drone right and [TS]

  confronts the general because there's a [TS]

  little humor there's little interplay I [TS]

  liked the bit about like how do we know [TS]

  you won't turn against us when I grew up [TS]

  in Kansas you know like like there's [TS]

  something funny about that and and I [TS]

  appreciate it and even the fact that you [TS]

  know it's weird to talk about the idea [TS]

  of there being consequences down the [TS]

  road when the last seen you see them in [TS]

  the movie is like looking all gee shucks [TS]

  you know like that [TS]

  an eager to start at the daily planets [TS]

  like no we just did not like i got a new [TS]

  building interested yeah where was the [TS]

  building and also where there's just a [TS]

  lot of reporters who were killed and [TS]

  maybe a little things they all were [TS]

  crushed under rubble by the species is [TS]

  there anything left to cover rebuilding [TS]

  of the center of Metropolis yes and just [TS]

  saying once you've discovered alien life [TS]

  I think that pretty much takes over your [TS]

  new cycle for a while so I don't know I [TS]

  just [TS]

  there's a lot of good ingredients here I [TS]

  liked Henry Cavill i wanted i wanted [TS]

  more i wanted there to be in I think [TS]

  John nailed it like there's no there's [TS]

  no writing like I think you condense it [TS]

  down it's like what a [TS]

  two-and-a-half-hour movie there's [TS]

  probably less than an hour dialogue is [TS]

  my guess yeah i think this movie could [TS]

  be much better if it was a half an hour [TS]

  shorter and I know people say that a lot [TS]

  but I feel like this is a movie where I [TS]

  could take I could literally take the [TS]

  footage that's on the screen and just [TS]

  cut it clip hearts out and make it a [TS]

  better movie or rearrange it 4-2 all its [TS]

  there's too much things go on we didn't [TS]

  say I mean things go on way too long [TS]

  even even if you do like the destruction [TS]

  fights they don't need to be as long as [TS]

  they are it's that scene where after [TS]

  they you know throw fly the plane into [TS]

  the thing and they're like we want it's [TS]

  over and then general zod gets up and [TS]

  you're like really we're going to do [TS]

  more then there's like another 20 [TS]

  minutes of them bashing each other and [TS]

  it's like already seen this guy's like [TS]

  cut like a few times now Dan you said [TS]

  something about a gradient I that's one [TS]

  way to go i don't think these movies [TS]

  must be gritty I think that this is [TS]

  trying to remake the magic of the Nolan [TS]

  Batman series because I mean I think one [TS]

  of the best superhero movies in the last [TS]

  five or ten years is Iron Man which is [TS]

  very sunny and funny and doesn't take [TS]

  itself too seriously and in many ways I [TS]

  mean I've 75 and I like a good example I [TS]

  like Iron Man better than the dark night [TS]

  they came out the same summer I thought [TS]

  iron man was better and it was light I [TS]

  don't think you have to go dark and you [TS]

  know it's a different kind of Superman [TS]

  story to tell and maybe it was wise of [TS]

  them to mix it up i did like that they [TS]

  took it in a different direction i'm not [TS]

  sure i mean those Christopher Reeve [TS]

  movies were so light and sunny and funny [TS]

  that maybe they needed to do something [TS]

  different for [TS]

  fear of not being accused of just [TS]

  ripping those off well and I think [TS]

  you're right there with no one on board [TS]

  they they want to capitalize especially [TS]

  are going to do a justice league thing [TS]

  that there is a certain continuity of [TS]

  tone they are for DC vs marvel right [TS]

  like Marvel's got it stone like Marvel's [TS]

  done an awesome job of establishing what [TS]

  is a marvel superhero movie write [TS]

  anything the biggest problem is that [TS]

  Superman's groundwork was already late [TS]

  for it by what they did in the batman [TS]

  trilogy and they had to somehow put them [TS]

  in the same world not to mention what [TS]

  they didn't green lantern which really [TS]

  if you just think about pass through [TS]

  that really tie together [TS]

  apparently they're pretending Green [TS]

  Lantern didn't even why don't forget [TS]

  that taping it so the the you're right [TS]

  and there's that differentiation of [TS]

  product to get to what my sense was [TS]

  saying about product strategy is if [TS]

  Marvel is gone with this doesn't make me [TS]

  sound like more of a marketing service [TS]

  to well no I'm just mean that that is an [TS]

  aspect this is big business to it's not [TS]

  just art is commerce but and if Marvel [TS]

  is going with the jon favreau joss [TS]

  whedon shane black kind of kind of tone [TS]

  of these movies on one level you know [TS]

  you might say a DC and Warner Brothers [TS]

  you might say well we need to we [TS]

  organize stick around let's go with that [TS]

  let's let's provide an alternative [TS]

  I'm just saying that when dad says you [TS]

  sort of have to get have to be AI and [TS]

  reserved for stronger nothing too but [TS]

  they chose to well it's got a its the [TS]

  gritty part is less than 10 min less [TS]

  important than the the contemporary part [TS]

  right it's got a family your modern [TS]

  sensibilities can be the jokey funny [TS]

  stuff that they do in the Marvel side [TS]

  because it's very much you know you're [TS]

  just weed no you know style but you know [TS]

  there's a difference between you [TS]

  couldn't do the movie the way you did ya [TS]

  years ago modernity of this movie is one [TS]

  of the things I like about it i like a [TS]

  great ride to try to make it it's coming [TS]

  in over the RSS feeds Jason I know I [TS]

  you're a monster dan that's uh John [TS]

  siracusa you know if we've sort of [TS]

  gotten your vibe but i wonder if you [TS]

  want to give us just a little overview [TS]

  and final thoughts i think people get [TS]

  thrown off by my vibe is if you remember [TS]

  the avengers movie I was I [TS]

  at various times defending the movie but [TS]

  the night when we asked graded at the [TS]

  end I gave it a see which I still stand [TS]

  by and this looking at this movie [TS]

  comparing it to the Avengers and star [TS]

  trek I think it makes a nice continuum [TS]

  so the Avengers i could not really take [TS]

  seriously a lot of the Marvel movies i [TS]

  have trouble taking seriously and not [TS]

  taking them seriously allows me to enjoy [TS]

  the stupid fun and the joss whedon lines [TS]

  in the ridiculousness without being [TS]

  bothered about the other parts of it so [TS]

  that's like don't take seriously but [TS]

  it's fun [TS]

  Star Trek I is fun and have fun watching [TS]

  it and it also lets me take it seriously [TS]

  a little bit like I get wrapped up in a [TS]

  little bit i start to feel for the [TS]

  characters or whatever and that's that's [TS]

  you know that's the idea you want to you [TS]

  want the movies I want the movie to make [TS]

  me take it seriously but also be fun if [TS]

  it's appropriate for the movie or [TS]

  whatever but I really needs to pull me [TS]

  and i can't i can't keep me at a [TS]

  distance with ridiculous Marvel things [TS]

  that I'm just not really that into and [TS]

  you know whatever right [TS]

  this movie from especially for the [TS]

  trailers the trail just movie we're [TS]

  making this was going to be my most [TS]

  anticipated movie of the contrast it to [TS]

  the star trek where the trailers the [TS]

  gate did nothing for me I was like all [TS]

  this is not going to be that great so [TS]

  that was a pleasant surprise this one I [TS]

  was going in with expectations because [TS]

  those trailers really connected with me [TS]

  and I didn't take this movie [TS]

  seriously more seriously than Avengers [TS]

  but then it wasn't fun and me taking it [TS]

  seriously just brought like it [TS]

  disappointed me like you're trying to [TS]

  bring me in but you're failing to do [TS]

  with this not enough script you're not [TS]

  pulling off the traditional story arc [TS]

  you're not pulling off the much more [TS]

  advanced moves of chopping it up it's [TS]

  just not working for me and you're [TS]

  making me take it seriously and is [TS]

  actually not that much in the movies for [TS]

  me to be light and enjoyable like if I [TS]

  had disengaged from it and so that put a [TS]

  bad taste in my mouth but I give it I'm [TS]

  almost like giving it a better grade [TS]

  than Avengers like a b-minus or [TS]

  something because like Avengers has kept [TS]

  me at a distance and and it was like fun [TS]

  i watch it again with my son it's like [TS]

  it's there it's whatever you know where [TS]

  is it okay like is it because adventures [TS]

  was kind of a series of meetings [TS]

  well I mean like it's just I'd it's not [TS]

  it's so clearly like the characters are [TS]

  so ridiculous there's no real rules in [TS]

  the universe the individual movies for [TS]

  the I I felt like at this point I feel [TS]

  like I enjoyed watching for more than [TS]

  you [TS]

  move just like sacrilegious war was just [TS]

  for indoor was just ridiculous it was [TS]

  like it was like one of those terrible [TS]

  shows that Dan watches and undersea WRA [TS]

  that's my doorway like like John i will [TS]

  say i think fundamentally the more [TS]

  superheroes you add to a movie [TS]

  the more level of ridiculousness you're [TS]

  going to get because you know this movie [TS]

  and has a 1 don't match up you know you [TS]

  can't you can only see birds in the same [TS]

  then movie what's up but so this one [TS]

  like it i could have done something and [TS]

  i saw it was going for and the fact that [TS]

  it didn't attain it left me more [TS]

  disappointed but I think if i had to [TS]

  grade the movie and take myself out of [TS]

  it i'm going to say that because this [TS]

  movie actually made me want to take it [TS]

  seriously i have to have to give it a [TS]

  higher grade than i would like it's real [TS]

  it's like the trailer did that job [TS]

  well no the movie itself like the [TS]

  Krypton thing I was at first it was just [TS]

  it just didn't it just didn't pull it [TS]

  off and like and speaking of likely what [TS]

  they're going to do with the character [TS]

  in the movie that we imagine that was [TS]

  there is kind of like imagining the quad [TS]

  movie the hell yeah I'm existing that's [TS]

  what imagining this movie where he's [TS]

  conflicted like they did so many things [TS]

  to undercut by thinking of the scene [TS]

  where like he's he's conflicted as a [TS]

  child and doesn't know how to act and [TS]

  doesn't know what he's going to do any [TS]

  harm and even as an adult he still [TS]

  hiding does want to reveal his powers is [TS]

  conflicted about the death of his father [TS]

  and everything that but then he allows [TS]

  himself to be captured and constantly [TS]

  strolls up to the thing and says the [TS]

  military guy you don't control me you [TS]

  never will where does this wherewithal [TS]

  come from how do you switch on the dime [TS]

  to say I'm conflicted i don't know what [TS]

  a real life LOL i've got a totally a [TS]

  plan i'm going to be Christopher he's 43 [TS]

  seconds up i'm conflicted the end of [TS]

  found Christopher Reeves again it's it [TS]

  they didn't commit to the story that [TS]

  could have done and the execution was [TS]

  poor but the there are good parts of [TS]

  this movie [TS]

  yes it ended up that don't have to do [TS]

  with the script and not like that have [TS]

  to do with just vegetables i really love [TS]

  the actor the guy who played Superman I [TS]

  really loved him I thought he was great [TS]

  he just was given nothing to do and he [TS]

  was trapped in this movie that made him [TS]

  do weird things that were contradictory [TS]

  didn't come to anything [TS]

  there you go so what we've learned is [TS]

  that parts of this movie parts of this [TS]

  movie not involving the script for good [TS]

  and that it was a good business [TS]

  calculation by the movie studio you know [TS]

  what I said earlier i'll stick by which [TS]

  is I think that the Avengers is a much [TS]

  better movie than this in a sense that I [TS]

  think the Avengers succeeds as a movie [TS]

  and even though we can argue about how [TS]

  why it succeeds and at what level it [TS]

  succeeds I can watch that and i have [TS]

  watched it several times since and I [TS]

  enjoy what I'm watching and have a good [TS]

  time [TS]

  where's this movie doesn't that just [TS]

  made me mad because this movie had those [TS]

  good things that made a promising and [TS]

  then in the end I felt like it [TS]

  squandered it and it went back to be [TS]

  bashing the bashing the action figures [TS]

  against each other and honestly I was [TS]

  wavering on the movie before all the [TS]

  fight scenes and the fight scenes [TS]

  murdered it for me because the fight [TS]

  scenes were let in [TS]

  they were boring they showed none of the [TS]

  nuance and promise and interest that we [TS]

  got in those better scenes and better [TS]

  visuals that happened earlier and were [TS]

  left with you know Zack Snyder and his [TS]

  action figures and people in these [TS]

  collapsing buildings dying all over the [TS]

  city and I'm sorry you can't ignore that [TS]

  like it didn't happen and and for [TS]

  whatever reason i don't blame the [TS]

  Avengers for all of the collapsed [TS]

  buildings in the Avengers ago I can't [TS]

  seriously either like now whatever it's [TS]

  silly it's the Avengers there's a god [TS]

  there with a hammer come on they're [TS]

  desperately trying to stop the dollar [TS]

  and they have felt that Superman was [TS]

  trying to stop the destruction he was [TS]

  just fighting a guy so for me it this [TS]

  movie is is interesting because it tried [TS]

  more stuff than the Avengers maybe in [TS]

  some ways and did some really [TS]

  interesting things but in the end it [TS]

  lost me and it made me dislike the movie [TS]

  even though there are things and I I'm i [TS]

  feel like i'm coming along stronger [TS]

  coming on stronger than I I maybe feel [TS]

  about this I don't hate this movie but I [TS]

  I'm my feelings are extremely mixed [TS]

  about it because there are things that I [TS]

  liked that sort of set me up to think [TS]

  favorably for the movie and then I felt [TS]

  so let down by the swing of what [TS]

  happened at the end that it made me more [TS]

  infuriated about it then if I had just [TS]

  thought it was middling all the way [TS]

  through his middling I could be like at [TS]

  it was fine it was in substantial which [TS]

  is sort of what you're saying about the [TS]

  Avengers and you just go yeah it's fine [TS]

  whereas this one was like got my hopes [TS]

  up and dash them and I i hate when that [TS]

  happens so that's that's that's my take [TS]

  on it is I i think that Moises is [TS]

  absolutely right about I think maybe [TS]

  this movie [TS]

  is weaker than it should be because of [TS]

  the imaginations of how they wanted to [TS]

  set up a franchise and I think that's [TS]

  shameful because yeah you got to judge [TS]

  the movie as a movie first and the fact [TS]

  that Superman is therefore all this [TS]

  destruction and then it's essentially [TS]

  never dealt with again is problematic to [TS]

  say the least so but but I don't want to [TS]

  completely castigate the movie because I [TS]

  think we've all said here there's some [TS]

  really interesting good things about [TS]

  this movie if somebody asks I've been [TS]

  struggling with the old the whole hour [TS]

  Siskel and Ebert thumbs-up thumbs-down [TS]

  thing my friend jeff anderson who is a [TS]

  movie critic gave it two and a half [TS]

  stars which is essentially the Oh almost [TS]

  a recommendation but not and I'm sort of [TS]

  in that ballpark which is I'm sort of [TS]

  like if you like superhero movies you [TS]

  should see man of steel [TS]

  I think there's interesting stuff in it [TS]

  and it will certainly make you think [TS]

  about what you just saw and you may not [TS]

  like it but you might you might but if [TS]

  you don't like it you still have a lot [TS]

  to chew on and I think that's where I [TS]

  end up on this movie is like I kinda [TS]

  recommend that people who like this kind [TS]

  of movie see it it's because I think [TS]

  there's interesting stuff in it even if [TS]

  I came out of it thinking sort of like i [TS]

  did with inception actually thinking on [TS]

  balance I thought about it for a week [TS]

  and then I decided yeah i actually [TS]

  didn't like it but I don't know need to [TS]

  see inception come on ya know i don't [TS]

  recommend people see inception but i do [TS]

  recommend that that superhero movie fans [TS]

  and and sci-fi movie fans go see Man of [TS]

  Steel if you if you think you might like [TS]

  this kind of movie because you'll [TS]

  certainly have a lot to think about and [TS]

  you may like about and talked about but [TS]

  in the end that doesn't make me feel any [TS]

  less sort of disappointed and let down [TS]

  by it [TS]

  why if if i can say touching on on kind [TS]

  of the way that that john looked at it [TS]

  as kind of as a movie and as you know as [TS]

  compared to Avengers that the way that I [TS]

  kind of think about it is as a movie i [TS]

  think it I I think it actually who works [TS]

  as a movie itself but separating out the [TS]

  notion of it as a Superman origin story [TS]

  movie that like that's where a lot of my [TS]

  confliction comes from because i love a [TS]

  lot of things they changed some of the [TS]

  other stuff that they changed really [TS]

  struck me is weird and because I'm so [TS]

  used to [TS]

  the consequences being self contained in [TS]

  the same movie itself and not coming [TS]

  after where end and i know you keep you [TS]

  keep you keep hammering me on this but [TS]

  but to the point of well you know why [TS]

  wasn't that in this movie where the [TS]

  consequences of all of those poor [TS]

  independent contractors being murdered [TS]

  in a new hope working on the Death Star [TS]

  oh yeah well that's true what happened [TS]

  to all of those people that the rebels [TS]

  failed [TS]

  there's no character that movie who is [TS]

  known for saving the population those [TS]

  people chose to work harder with me and [TS]

  wonder the bad guy [TS]

  yeah exactly just a couple bad life [TS]

  decisions that the point the point is [TS]

  more than consequences it's more to well [TS]

  your expectation is that that has to be [TS]

  self-contained story for me I says if [TS]

  they were if there were scenes about the [TS]

  regular Joe's working on the desktop is [TS]

  actually something the robot chicken [TS]

  episodes do really really well then you [TS]

  then you're like oh yeah those people [TS]

  thats really sad but the point is in [TS]

  this movie I mean I'm sorry after nine [TS]

  eleven you cannot show urban destruction [TS]

  like this without having every single [TS]

  person there know that there are [TS]

  thousands of innocent people dying [TS]

  you can't you can't do it but this is [TS]

  actually one of the reasons i like I get [TS]

  it will go off on a tangent here so we [TS]

  shouldn't but other reasons i like the [TS]

  movie cloverfield which is found footage [TS]

  and it's problematic and I like that one [TS]

  too [TS]

  what I like Cloverfield for is that [TS]

  clover field is the superposition of [TS]

  Godzilla and 911 and it makes you [TS]

  suddenly find it far more horrific but [TS]

  you can't just have it happen never [TS]

  comment on it have the scale of the [TS]

  family in the Grand Central Station be [TS]

  the only scale that you see that seems [TS]

  to matter and then never address it [TS]

  again it's just that you can't do it [TS]

  well that's what I'm talking about when [TS]

  you're tired when you have a movie [TS]

  that's modern right like there is a [TS]

  there is a contemporary sensibility in [TS]

  terms of the context that we're watching [TS]

  it in like them and when I say movies [TS]

  were made in the seventies like they're [TS]

  made in the 2007 true because we have a [TS]

  different perspective I mean at that [TS]

  point we were dealing with the aftermath [TS]

  of Vietnam you know Watergate all those [TS]

  things you take a different impression [TS]

  of a movie It's Made in a different area [TS]

  absorbs different things from those [TS]

  what's going on around it and I think [TS]

  you're right you can't you know maybe 50 [TS]

  years from now somebody goes back and [TS]

  watches man of steel they might not have [TS]

  that same contextual you know [TS]

  feeling to bring to it because they [TS]

  didn't live through the arrow but it you [TS]

  know on that stretching its or is like a [TS]

  teen violence you have people crawling [TS]

  out of right we'll be right there okay [TS]

  whereas post-911 you get like in [TS]

  Cloverfield with the building kind of [TS]

  leans on the side of another building [TS]

  and you actually have to show all the [TS]

  people trying to escape from the Leaning [TS]

  building because we know there are [TS]

  people in there you can avoid it [TS]

  well and and 2 to some extent and you [TS]

  know I I'm sure this will be classified [TS]

  as over-reaching i'm i'm i'm i'm [TS]

  predicting my own downfall i really i [TS]

  really feel like the brutality of it and [TS]

  this is something that that that loads [TS]

  of directors from like the seventies and [TS]

  so on to have said about modern cinema [TS]

  about how we are brutalizing the [TS]

  audience with these movies I feel like [TS]

  you can't you can't do a Superman movie [TS]

  without some sort of big action-packed [TS]

  fight and i'm not talking about the [TS]

  exact context of the way that the fight [TS]

  was was carried out i'm not saying you [TS]

  have to do it with that kind of loss of [TS]

  life and that kind of carelessness on [TS]

  the part of a hero that is so well known [TS]

  for always being there and always [TS]

  pulling somebody out of the rubble and [TS]

  oh he saved thousands of people i really [TS]

  in my heart of hearts I felt like those [TS]

  steaks were there purposely and yeah [TS]

  it's awful and it's terrible and I i [TS]

  wanted to use an explicit tag word to [TS]

  describe it that that Superman doesn't [TS]

  seem like he cares it lands with him [TS]

  that it just happened and he's basically [TS]

  ignored it but I almost wonder if that [TS]

  wasn't part of the point of why they [TS]

  handled the way that they did in in in [TS]

  the way that they're changing things and [TS]

  you can like that are not like it but [TS]

  the way in which I appreciated it is [TS]

  that that's something that is so rarely [TS]

  addressed in these and certainly isn't [TS]

  really in Avengers Avengers is basically [TS]

  some of the super-powered people are [TS]

  basically super military and their kind [TS]

  of doing what they can and they're never [TS]

  shown as causing something that might [TS]

  have killed somebody but that doesn't [TS]

  run that they didn't necessarily kill [TS]

  someone and this is actually putting [TS]

  more real-world steaks on what happens [TS]

  when a man with the powers of a god is [TS]

  flying around fighting a dude with the [TS]

  same kind of destructive power extends [TS]

  never it's never paid off again [TS]

  I i would I think it could have whatever [TS]

  squandered potential if if if we had [TS]

  seen that at any point but I feel like [TS]

  what's really happening here is not mean [TS]

  we can rationalize it and and I feel [TS]

  like that's sort of what you're doing i [TS]

  look at this and think you know Zack [TS]

  Snyder wasn't interested in any of the [TS]

  consequences he just wanted stuff to [TS]

  blow up he showed they showed Superman [TS]

  after when he took out the drone he [TS]

  seemed fine you see if not broken up [TS]

  about killing all those people at all [TS]

  just like dough taking out your drones [TS]

  don't try to find me haha i seemed fine [TS]

  you know like they showed him after you [TS]

  know and then he goes and works in a [TS]

  newspaper is good this is a character [TS]

  that we're not used to having those [TS]

  kinds of character flaws and that's why [TS]

  it bothers us so it's not a flat stuff [TS]

  on the character flaw in the movie it's [TS]

  yeah he we don't see him not caring we [TS]

  we see the movie not caring and that's [TS]

  the difference for me I think we're [TS]

  putting your you're putting your putting [TS]

  it on all of the filmmakers that they [TS]

  don't care where I me honestly like it's [TS]

  an immensely crappy thing for Superman [TS]

  to do and we read it is something that [TS]

  Superman would never do [TS]

  no it's not just that we read that is [TS]

  like it movies either going to make you [TS]

  are you supposed to sympathize and [TS]

  identify with him or are you supposed to [TS]

  condemn him for his callous destruction [TS]

  and the movie does not frame movie [TS]

  frames that is if we're supposed to be [TS]

  always super and we we sympathize with [TS]

  like it's up to the movie too [TS]

  it's not just like a documentary right [TS]

  it's up to the movie to arrange itself [TS]

  to deliver whatever kind of thing is [TS]

  trying to deliver here and it was [TS]

  delivering was Superman is your guy he's [TS]

  cool he's coming to his own now this is [TS]

  Superman you remember that was the drone [TS]

  seen its like oh yeah there is that [TS]

  stupid i remember it's not [TS]

  hey it's not like zero dark thirty we're [TS]

  just like look at the stuff guys what do [TS]

  you think of it it's not just laying it [TS]

  out in front of me I don't know about [TS]

  you guys but the crowds of your co now [TS]

  the movie theater not like oh my god I [TS]

  can't believe superhero murdered over [TS]

  serious writing like this is that [TS]

  happening are like super nice double [TS]

  yeah so for me for me it's not that the [TS]

  movie is is is commenting on whether [TS]

  it's right or wrong for Superman to have [TS]

  had this fight in this area with all [TS]

  these people dying my point is the movie [TS]

  isn't commenting on at all i think it's [TS]

  just not there i think i think this [TS]

  movie is taking is essentially a moral [TS]

  at that point it's not like zero dark [TS]

  thirty years amore more are not [TS]

  commenting this movie is actually coming [TS]

  at you and saying you should be okay [TS]

  with this cause look at Superman he's [TS]

  actually kind of cool [TS]

  any guy and high took out that drone is [TS]

  actually kind of hot isn't that great [TS]

  guys that the movies coming out instinct [TS]

  this is our view on what just happened [TS]

  Superman we as moviemakers feel that [TS]

  this was perfectly fine that there are [TS]

  no consequences and here's the scene to [TS]

  prove it right there not saying they're [TS]

  not staying out of it like zero dark [TS]

  thirty saying terrible things happened [TS]

  it what do you guys think about you walk [TS]

  out of the other movie theater like with [TS]

  your eyes straight ahead like zombies [TS]

  like oh my god and you don't know what [TS]

  to think of it like they did this movie [TS]

  does not stay out of it has a stance in [TS]

  the stances it's fine no big deal [TS]

  I i disagree i think the stance is judge [TS]

  him judging for don't judge them for it [TS]

  and that's that ties exactly to what [TS]

  you're talking about people walking it [TS]

  going hey that's great and you know [TS]

  Superman be the bad guy and everything [TS]

  and people say the same things about the [TS]

  military doing different things as well [TS]

  great at whatever cost fantastic they [TS]

  got the bad guy [TS]

  I didn't care about it none of those [TS]

  10,000 people were my sister or cousin [TS]

  alright I I think you're giving it too [TS]

  much credit and I don't think the movie [TS]

  is actually thinking anybody's going to [TS]

  think that i think the movie is [TS]

  expecting that people are going to be [TS]

  like wow a lot of crap blew up and that [TS]

  was kind of cool and then the guy died [TS]

  and that was awesome and not thinking [TS]

  about and I just don't think you can I [TS]

  offer you can or should show skit [TS]

  destruction on that scale while [TS]

  pretending that it has no relevance to [TS]

  what happens in the story plus I think [TS]

  you're missing a lot of dramatic options [TS]

  by not addressing it but it is what it [TS]

  is i think we've we've beat we've we've [TS]

  taken our own little city and destroyed [TS]

  it into the weather hasn't prevented the [TS]

  reins with our machine that makes the [TS]

  gravity go up and down again which [TS]

  actually that was kinda cool and weird [TS]

  in a way this motion machine Jason [TS]

  please [TS]

  although I'm not quite sure how how you [TS]

  use the smashing machine for [TS]

  terraforming but whatever whatever this [TS]

  is these are people this is technology [TS]

  invented by people who destroyed the [TS]

  core of the planet made their plan to [TS]

  blow up so they're not their technology [TS]

  is not solid its advanced but not [TS]

  technologies fine as user are totally it [TS]

  is it has kak anyway [TS]

  again this is one of the things that I [TS]

  credit a movie like this even when I say [TS]

  that I don't like it is that if you can [TS]

  talk about it in this level of detail [TS]

  there's something to to be you gotta get [TS]

  a credit for that because there are a [TS]

  lot of movies out there that you just be [TS]

  like I don't know what to say about this [TS]

  movie good or bad especially bad so I [TS]

  think that's to this movie's credit that [TS]

  we can talk about it [TS]

  well if I can almost get Jason all the [TS]

  ban me from the incomparable permanently [TS]

  don't know because i can so angry no I [TS]

  invited nobody's definitely Anthony know [TS]

  nobody expected that no I mean nobody's [TS]

  been feeling uncomfortable i [TS]

  specifically invited you want because [TS]

  you you said that you had a you had a [TS]

  more positive opinion on this and I [TS]

  thought that would be kind of fun to [TS]

  happen have it on there now your band [TS]

  know so I want to thank my my guests for [TS]

  discussing man of steel with me Dan [TS]

  Morgan thank you again for being on [TS]

  every podcast ever [TS]

  it's a pleasure and i'll see you on the [TS]

  next podcast yes of course John syracuse [TS]

  oh you're a monster and I will stop you [TS]

  think we can all agree that the real [TS]

  winner is [TS]

  after watching this movie and as JJ [TS]

  Abrams who made to star trek movies that [TS]

  were not terrible and he's all just [TS]

  setting us up for the crushing crushing [TS]

  blow there will be the terrible about [TS]

  getting your whole step is right exactly [TS]

  now is just setting us up to knock us [TS]

  down [TS]

  yeah yeah and y su are you are welcome [TS]

  back sometime of all the time of my [TS]

  choosing when I choose it carefully but [TS]

  yes you are welcome back and I'm glad [TS]

  that you brought your your perspective [TS]

  this too [TS]

  I appreciate it well thank you Jason [TS]

  you're welcome on on the all-new all [TS]

  different giant-sized that that we [TS]

  rebooted just this week and in which in [TS]

  which we talk about Superman stuff as [TS]

  well but not nearly to the heat at which [TS]

  wich we discussed it tonight so thank [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  by all means check out my successes [TS]

  podcast giant-sized on five by five so [TS]

  until next time thanks for listening to [TS]

  be uncomfortable thanks again to the [TS]

  panel i'm jason still signing off [TS]

  everybody out there we'll see you next [TS]

  time [TS]