Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

00:00:11 ◼   ► wanted to talk a little bit about the

00:00:14 ◼   ► ways in which you can motivate your

00:00:17 ◼   ► users to come back to your app and the

00:00:20 ◼   ► situations and scenarios where you might

00:00:23 ◼   ► do that an inactive way or in a passive

00:00:25 ◼   ► way and kind of some of the implications

00:00:28 ◼   ► for that because it's I often find

00:00:29 ◼   ► personally this is an area that I I have

00:00:32 ◼   ► a lot of sort of hanging hand-wringing

00:00:33 ◼   ► about because there's this one part of

00:00:36 ◼   ► me that thinks you know I want to do

00:00:38 ◼   ► everything I can to get my users back

00:00:40 ◼   ► into my app I mean in many ways the you

00:00:43 ◼   ► know my business is largely supported by

00:00:46 ◼   ► advertising and so the more I can get

00:00:48 ◼   ► people into my app the better my

00:00:50 ◼   ► business does but on the flip side like

00:00:52 ◼   ► I also want to make respectful apps I

00:00:54 ◼   ► want to make apps that I enjoy using

00:00:56 ◼   ► that I hope my customers enjoy using and

00:00:58 ◼   ► so I want to do you know bring them back

00:01:01 ◼   ► into my app for the right reason and

00:01:02 ◼   ► this has all come to the surface

00:01:04 ◼   ► recently for me because the next major

00:01:07 ◼   ► version of pedometer plus plus is all

00:01:11 ◼   ► geared around the concept of

00:01:12 ◼   ► achievements and badges and you know so

00:01:15 ◼   ► as you walk so many steps you earn

00:01:18 ◼   ► badges as you go you know so you get

00:01:20 ◼   ► badge when you hit you know you had a

00:01:22 ◼   ► twenty thousand step day good job you

00:01:24 ◼   ► know you get a badge and achievement in

00:01:26 ◼   ► the app and I built that you know built

00:01:30 ◼   ► the feature out for just like showing

00:01:31 ◼   ► and displaying those badges but then you

00:01:33 ◼   ► get the run into the question of you

00:01:34 ◼   ► know how should I show this to people

00:01:37 ◼   ► should I try and you know should as soon

00:01:39 ◼   ► as you earn a badge you know pop up a

00:01:42 ◼   ► notification that says hey you earned a

00:01:44 ◼   ► badge you know come and check it out in

00:01:45 ◼   ► pedometer plus plus like and I could and

00:01:49 ◼   ► in weird way like that almost seems to

00:01:52 ◼   ► be like the trend and I mean if you take

00:01:54 ◼   ► a look at the Apple watch it is the

00:01:56 ◼   ► chattiest thing by default with

00:01:59 ◼   ► notifications for things like this where

00:02:01 ◼   ► breathe David you have to stop and

00:02:03 ◼   ► breathe yeah they could take a minute

00:02:04 ◼   ► stop and breathe there's all the

00:02:06 ◼   ► coaching ones that soar like great jobs

00:02:08 ◼   ► starting off today you'd have already

00:02:10 ◼   ► gotten half your move goal keep it up

00:02:12 ◼   ► anything it's so chatty and that seems

00:02:14 ◼   ► like from Avenue Apple which is

00:02:16 ◼   ► ostensibly like you know in a company to

00:02:19 ◼   ► try and imitate they do a lot of this

00:02:21 ◼   ► but it never really sat well with me and

00:02:24 ◼   ► so in the end what I did was I tried to

00:02:28 ◼   ► be more subtle and you know in the app

00:02:30 ◼   ► itself there's just this nice little

00:02:32 ◼   ► sort of glisten shimmer effect on the

00:02:35 ◼   ► badge icon in the top right corner of

00:02:37 ◼   ► the app whenever you have badges you've

00:02:38 ◼   ► earned would haven't looked at and my

00:02:40 ◼   ► hope is that you know it's a subtle

00:02:43 ◼   ► thing that if you open the app you'll I

00:02:44 ◼   ► think notice because it moves around a

00:02:46 ◼   ► lot but it's not going to ever get in

00:02:49 ◼   ► your way it's not something that I'm

00:02:51 ◼   ► trying to you know I'm not asserting

00:02:53 ◼   ► that you earning a badge is more

00:02:55 ◼   ► important than you seeing your current

00:02:56 ◼   ► step count which is the core and main

00:02:59 ◼   ► feature of the app and so but it was

00:03:02 ◼   ► kind of an interesting journey to work

00:03:03 ◼   ► through because I feel like knowing

00:03:05 ◼   ► whether it's like knowing when to find

00:03:09 ◼   ► that what went to notifying when not to

00:03:11 ◼   ► notify is tricky and I think you know in

00:03:14 ◼   ► this particular case and like where I

00:03:16 ◼   ► ended up but it feels that odds with the

00:03:19 ◼   ► DES general trend and that always makes

00:03:21 ◼   ► me nervous and so it seemed like

00:03:22 ◼   ► something that was worth discussing yeah

00:03:24 ◼   ► definitely I mean I think you know a lot

00:03:26 ◼   ► of times we have to you know as

00:03:28 ◼   ► programmers I mean let's face it where

00:03:30 ◼   ► there's a lot of similarities among

00:03:32 ◼   ► programmers were usually a certain type

00:03:34 ◼   ► of nerd and for example when we want to

00:03:37 ◼   ► sell t-shirts for our things I believe

00:03:40 ◼   ► it is the programmer instinct to sell

00:03:43 ◼   ► only black t-shirts and that's why there

00:03:45 ◼   ► are so many black t-shirts for technical

00:03:47 ◼   ► things and eventually I think some

00:03:50 ◼   ► people realize that you know or we're

00:03:51 ◼   ► told like hey you know what the rest of

00:03:53 ◼   ► the world exists to beyond just eeks

00:03:54 ◼   ► and some people want different colors of

00:03:56 ◼   ► t-shirts and so in some cases like that

00:03:59 ◼   ► we have to overcome our geek

00:04:01 ◼   ► sensibilities to make everything just

00:04:03 ◼   ► black and to offer color to the world

00:04:07 ◼   ► because I actually want that and I think

00:04:10 ◼   ► there's something to be said for the

00:04:12 ◼   ► style of more chatty notifications more

00:04:17 ◼   ► aggressive notifications to increase

00:04:20 ◼   ► engagement in your mobile applications

00:04:22 ◼   ► you know all these things that we don't

00:04:23 ◼   ► usually like to even think about let

00:04:25 ◼   ► alone talk

00:04:26 ◼   ► or consider some of that is just a style

00:04:30 ◼   ► of usage some of that users actually

00:04:32 ◼   ► want like I was actually so in this case

00:04:35 ◼   ► I I have had pedometer plus plus your

00:04:39 ◼   ► app installed on my phone for a very

00:04:41 ◼   ► long time probably since it came out and

00:04:43 ◼   ► usually it is in a folder on my second

00:04:45 ◼   ► screen because you usually don't check

00:04:46 ◼   ► it every day

00:04:48 ◼   ► however while I'm on vacation I'm in a

00:04:50 ◼   ► place where I'm doing a lot of walking

00:04:52 ◼   ► tons of tons of walking and so I've been

00:04:54 ◼   ► checking it every day now the way I used

00:04:56 ◼   ► to rely on the Apple watch's activity

00:04:58 ◼   ► rings too close you know and I would

00:05:00 ◼   ► make sure I close those now I'm making

00:05:03 ◼   ► sure I really hit my goals in pedometer

00:05:05 ◼   ► plus plus hidden all this walking during

00:05:07 ◼   ► this vacation and I was actually just

00:05:10 ◼   ► thinking yesterday before you and I

00:05:12 ◼   ► discussed the topic for this show before

00:05:14 ◼   ► you told me you were thinking about are

00:05:15 ◼   ► these notifications yesterday I was

00:05:17 ◼   ► thinking you know it would be nice to

00:05:20 ◼   ► have this app update me throughout the

00:05:21 ◼   ► day in some way if I need a little bit

00:05:23 ◼   ► more to reach my goal or something like

00:05:25 ◼   ► that you know you know and the watch

00:05:27 ◼   ► does this too but to have you know I was

00:05:30 ◼   ► literally thinking in my head requesting

00:05:33 ◼   ► a feature that you just said you weren't

00:05:35 ◼   ► sure you wanted to do yeah and the fact

00:05:37 ◼   ► is that not all of your users will want

00:05:39 ◼   ► this just you know just as many of you

00:05:42 ◼   ► have many of tech podcast listeners and

00:05:44 ◼   ► app users happily buy black t-shirts

00:05:47 ◼   ► because we're all nerds but there is a

00:05:50 ◼   ► portion of your user base that actually

00:05:52 ◼   ► not only would not see this as annoying

00:05:54 ◼   ► or spammy they actually it would

00:05:56 ◼   ► actually increase the value of the app

00:05:57 ◼   ► to them they actually want this and it's

00:06:00 ◼   ► it is against so many of our

00:06:02 ◼   ► sensibilities to offer a feature like

00:06:04 ◼   ► that or to build that in or especially

00:06:06 ◼   ► to do something like enable it by

00:06:07 ◼   ► default because let's be honest if you

00:06:09 ◼   ► don't enable these kind of things by

00:06:10 ◼   ► default you know you know you might as

00:06:11 ◼   ► well not even build the feature because

00:06:13 ◼   ► so few people will use it but sometimes

00:06:16 ◼   ► that actually is what people want and we

00:06:19 ◼   ► you know we are so conservative about

00:06:21 ◼   ► annoying people or about you know

00:06:23 ◼   ► prompting them with notifications whose

00:06:26 ◼   ► sole purpose is reengagement with the

00:06:28 ◼   ► app rather than like this is a fact that

00:06:31 ◼   ► happened you know it's like like when

00:06:32 ◼   ► overcast send notifications are

00:06:33 ◼   ► currently overcast only thumbs

00:06:34 ◼   ► notifications for two things only for

00:06:37 ◼   ► new episodes that of podcast that you

00:06:39 ◼   ► have said note if

00:06:39 ◼   ► me about this or if you have gone on the

00:06:42 ◼   ► website and said notify me when ads are

00:06:45 ◼   ► available for purchase in this category

00:06:47 ◼   ► I will notify you for that as well

00:06:49 ◼   ► that's it I don't have any notifications

00:06:52 ◼   ► in there for things like hey you have

00:06:54 ◼   ► you know 40 episodes queued up why don't

00:06:57 ◼   ► you think about a time to listen to them

00:06:58 ◼   ► today something like that like and I

00:07:01 ◼   ► probably should consider something like

00:07:03 ◼   ► that because that is such a common

00:07:05 ◼   ► engagement thing and and it turn and and

00:07:08 ◼   ► you know those things first of all it is

00:07:10 ◼   ► questionable whether they are permitted

00:07:12 ◼   ► in the app review guidelines technically

00:07:16 ◼   ► anything that is promotional or for

00:07:18 ◼   ► marketing purposes is not allowed in

00:07:21 ◼   ► practice apps violate that constantly

00:07:24 ◼   ► really really big apps to like absolute

00:07:26 ◼   ► Apple definitely would know about and

00:07:27 ◼   ► this rule seems to go fairly unenforced

00:07:30 ◼   ► in the App Store violates it sometimes

00:07:34 ◼   ► this is not a small thing that happens

00:07:37 ◼   ► sometimes like happen all the time so

00:07:39 ◼   ► and there's also there's a line to walk

00:07:41 ◼   ► between like hey buy more gems they're

00:07:44 ◼   ► on sale right now which i think is

00:07:46 ◼   ► annoying but also something that

00:07:48 ◼   ► actually provides value to people like

00:07:49 ◼   ► your 90 percent to your step goal but

00:07:52 ◼   ► you seem to have slowed down in the last

00:07:54 ◼   ► couple hours why don't you go take a

00:07:55 ◼   ► walk you know I mean obviously they

00:07:57 ◼   ► there are ways word this they're a

00:07:58 ◼   ► little bit less get off your butt and

00:08:02 ◼   ► get yeah like you should definitely have

00:08:03 ◼   ► somebody who's less direct than me word

00:08:05 ◼   ► these things for you but like that

00:08:09 ◼   ► actually is a feature you know if for an

00:08:11 ◼   ► app like yours that actually improves

00:08:14 ◼   ► the app for people who want that and for

00:08:17 ◼   ► people who don't want that it's really

00:08:18 ◼   ► easy to provide a simple checkbox in the

00:08:21 ◼   ► settings turn it off so or the end of

00:08:24 ◼   ► people probably would have declined

00:08:25 ◼   ► notification access in the first place

00:08:27 ◼   ► and when it when it prompted them so

00:08:29 ◼   ► that kind of feature I think if you want

00:08:33 ◼   ► pedometer plus plus to be more of like a

00:08:37 ◼   ► like an everyday thing for more people

00:08:40 ◼   ► if you want to be a thing they check

00:08:42 ◼   ► multiple times throughout the day I

00:08:44 ◼   ► think not only should you do that

00:08:46 ◼   ► feature I think you need to do that

00:08:48 ◼   ► feature may be I mean you get the

00:08:51 ◼   ► counterpoint out and they definitely

00:08:52 ◼   ► appreciate where your

00:08:53 ◼   ► it's lovely to hear that you have a very

00:08:56 ◼   ► different view on this than I do in some

00:08:58 ◼   ► ways as a user who wants the feature and

00:09:00 ◼   ► me as the developers like hmm maybe not

00:09:03 ◼   ► oh and by the way that so I don't know

00:09:05 ◼   ► how big your beta is but because you

00:09:07 ◼   ► revealed the secret about that nice

00:09:08 ◼   ► shimmery effect on the badge section on

00:09:10 ◼   ► the toolbar yeah I noticed that

00:09:12 ◼   ► immediately and I'm like ooh what's that

00:09:14 ◼   ► and I tapped it I've never tapped that

00:09:16 ◼   ► button before ever like I didn't even

00:09:18 ◼   ► know the badges were in your app how

00:09:20 ◼   ► long have they been there you know they

00:09:21 ◼   ► appeared in that beta okay you could

00:09:24 ◼   ► have you could have seen them it used to

00:09:25 ◼   ► be a button to like share your steps

00:09:27 ◼   ► with like making a low share image now

00:09:29 ◼   ► it's this new area for badges okay well

00:09:32 ◼   ► but like I saw that button on the cool

00:09:33 ◼   ► what's that and I tapped it yeah and

00:09:35 ◼   ► then I noticed later on the day I went

00:09:37 ◼   ► back to it and it was still shimmering

00:09:38 ◼   ► and I thought oh there is something in

00:09:40 ◼   ► here I haven't seen yet or I haven't

00:09:41 ◼   ► cleared it or I haven't marked as red or

00:09:42 ◼   ► something so I tapped it again and at

00:09:44 ◼   ► neither point but I was like oh god

00:09:46 ◼   ► that's so garish you know I know I wish

00:09:48 ◼   ► that app wasn't they know that it's

00:09:50 ◼   ► something that's small and subtle but

00:09:51 ◼   ► it's you know kind of get your attention

00:09:53 ◼   ► in a tasteful way it's not like the

00:09:55 ◼   ► blink tag or the marquee tag in HTML you

00:09:57 ◼   ► know it's not blinking bright pink and

00:09:58 ◼   ► and you know covering up the part of the

00:10:00 ◼   ► app that I want that I want to see

00:10:02 ◼   ► anything like that it's you know it's a

00:10:04 ◼   ► nice little animation shimmer effect on

00:10:06 ◼   ► a bar button item and that's totally

00:10:08 ◼   ► tasteful and within the bounds of

00:10:10 ◼   ► reasonable and it at least in this small

00:10:12 ◼   ► testing group of one it had exactly the

00:10:14 ◼   ► intended effect which is I noticed this

00:10:16 ◼   ► thing and it happen hard to see what I

00:10:18 ◼   ► was missing

00:10:18 ◼   ► yeah and I think that was my intention

00:10:20 ◼   ► with that and I'm glad it worked in that

00:10:24 ◼   ► in that regard and I think it reminds

00:10:26 ◼   ► the this discussion is interesting

00:10:28 ◼   ► because it reminds me of the very first

00:10:29 ◼   ► time I went to WB DC and I went to a one

00:10:34 ◼   ► of the user interface design labs which

00:10:37 ◼   ► are those really hard to schedule things

00:10:39 ◼   ► that WTC where you have to give that

00:10:41 ◼   ► back then you couldn't do it in the app

00:10:43 ◼   ► even you had to like get up early in the

00:10:45 ◼   ► morning line up outside of Moscone West

00:10:47 ◼   ► as soon as they opened the door you'd

00:10:49 ◼   ► like run into the place where you could

00:10:51 ◼   ► sign up and you know they had you know

00:10:53 ◼   ► 40 for the day and the first 40 people

00:10:55 ◼   ► got design reviews and I remember I went

00:10:58 ◼   ► to one of those and you know in general

00:11:01 ◼   ► the the guy was very helpful and gave me

00:11:02 ◼   ► a lot of feedback on my app but one of

00:11:04 ◼   ► the things he said that stuck with me

00:11:05 ◼   ► and still stuck with me

00:11:07 ◼   ► is this feet he said one of the things

00:11:10 ◼   ► that's important to find in your app is

00:11:12 ◼   ► having an area or a purpose that gives

00:11:16 ◼   ► somebody new value every time they open

00:11:19 ◼   ► the app so making sure that there's a

00:11:24 ◼   ► reason for them to come back to it on a

00:11:26 ◼   ► regular basis and in sit with an app

00:11:29 ◼   ► like pedometer in some ways it's like

00:11:30 ◼   ► the just the fact that the step counts

00:11:32 ◼   ► are changing is sort of that and you

00:11:34 ◼   ► know I be the impression I get from a

00:11:36 ◼   ► lot of my users is that there is this

00:11:37 ◼   ► natural I guess you'd call it

00:11:40 ◼   ► habituation if that's a word of use of

00:11:43 ◼   ► the app where you know if you are

00:11:45 ◼   ► somebody who starts to care about your

00:11:46 ◼   ► steps you will just naturally start

00:11:48 ◼   ► opening the app on a regular basis to

00:11:50 ◼   ► check your your step counts and in many

00:11:52 ◼   ► ways my goal with this other version is

00:11:55 ◼   ► to rather than pulling you into the app

00:11:58 ◼   ► with a notification to try and be like

00:11:59 ◼   ► hey you earned a badge good job is to in

00:12:03 ◼   ► some ways create this curiosity about

00:12:05 ◼   ► you know hey did I get there and

00:12:07 ◼   ► especially because it's intonation with

00:12:09 ◼   ► a lot of badges kind of stuff is once

00:12:11 ◼   ► you've had you in most users will

00:12:14 ◼   ► probably download this update have an

00:12:16 ◼   ► initial wave of badges that they earn in

00:12:20 ◼   ► terms of you know it's because it takes

00:12:21 ◼   ► into account your past history so you

00:12:22 ◼   ► know if you've had a day with 40,000

00:12:25 ◼   ► steps like great job you are in that

00:12:26 ◼   ► badge or you've had a long streak or

00:12:28 ◼   ► your lifetime steps have crossed over

00:12:30 ◼   ► any of the boundaries like you'll have

00:12:32 ◼   ► this big swath of badges and hopefully

00:12:34 ◼   ► that's exciting and cool and is useful

00:12:36 ◼   ► when the app comes out and can make

00:12:38 ◼   ► people excited and want to show people

00:12:40 ◼   ► but then from that point on like there's

00:12:43 ◼   ► actually not going to be that many

00:12:44 ◼   ► badges that you will earn on a regular

00:12:46 ◼   ► basis from that point on just because

00:12:48 ◼   ► the nature of the like having it be an

00:12:52 ◼   ► achievement that you work towards you

00:12:54 ◼   ► know like right now I'm working towards

00:12:56 ◼   ► my 10 million step badge which is

00:12:58 ◼   ► currently the highest lifetime step

00:13:01 ◼   ► badge which you know fair enough I've

00:13:03 ◼   ► been using the app for a very long time

00:13:04 ◼   ► but I think I'm something like 300

00:13:09 ◼   ► thousand steps away from that it's going

00:13:11 ◼   ► to take me a while to get that three

00:13:14 ◼   ► hundred thousand steps but and so it's

00:13:16 ◼   ► not something that's necessarily

00:13:18 ◼   ► something gonna check on a regular basis

00:13:20 ◼   ► but

00:13:21 ◼   ► I'm you know in the weird way in the

00:13:22 ◼   ► back of my mind I kind of now that I am

00:13:25 ◼   ► you now this feature is there I'm always

00:13:27 ◼   ► kind of hoping that there'll be this

00:13:29 ◼   ► shimmer in the top right corner the next

00:13:31 ◼   ► time I open the app it creates that set

00:13:34 ◼   ► of the sense of somewhat excitement or

00:13:37 ◼   ► curiosity which is different than if I

00:13:40 ◼   ► just know whenever I hit it I'm gonna

00:13:41 ◼   ► get a notification like that

00:13:43 ◼   ► I have this feeling of I'm going to go

00:13:45 ◼   ► back and check on a regular basis but

00:13:47 ◼   ► yeah it's this is a funny tension though

00:13:50 ◼   ► because I don't you know III appreciate

00:13:52 ◼   ► the where you're coming from for like

00:13:54 ◼   ► you can get into such it can be so

00:13:57 ◼   ► useful to do this kind of notification

00:13:59 ◼   ► stuff and to do this kind of more

00:14:01 ◼   ► coaching based behaviors um but at the

00:14:05 ◼   ► same time I also kind of just want

00:14:06 ◼   ► people to keep opening the app on a

00:14:08 ◼   ► regular basis because that's not their

00:14:10 ◼   ► if you care about it if you're like I'm

00:14:12 ◼   ► if you are in a highly engaged user of

00:14:16 ◼   ► the app you're just gonna be doing it

00:14:17 ◼   ► anyway and maybe I'm losing some of the

00:14:19 ◼   ► attention of the less engaged users but

00:14:23 ◼   ► in a weird way like I'm okay with that

00:14:24 ◼   ► I don't know it's it I'm probably not

00:14:27 ◼   ► making a good choice necessarily but

00:14:28 ◼   ► it's it's just the thing that feels more

00:14:30 ◼   ► right to me I'm curious do you do things

00:14:34 ◼   ► like measure monthly active users in any

00:14:36 ◼   ► way I use fabrics to--and so it measures

00:14:41 ◼   ► it for me because the reason I asked is

00:14:44 ◼   ► like you know the this you know I I've

00:14:47 ◼   ► always found that whenever I start

00:14:49 ◼   ► measuring anything you know and this is

00:14:51 ◼   ► not a this is nothing I invented this is

00:14:54 ◼   ► a very common thing whenever I start

00:14:55 ◼   ► measuring anything I do start caring

00:14:58 ◼   ► about that thing and I start trying to

00:15:00 ◼   ► optimize for it you know and this you

00:15:03 ◼   ► know again this happens with lots of

00:15:04 ◼   ► things that get measured as part of jobs

00:15:07 ◼   ► or work or even just hobbies you know

00:15:09 ◼   ► that's one of the reasons why like it's

00:15:11 ◼   ► so hard to evaluate programmer

00:15:12 ◼   ► productivity with things like lines of

00:15:13 ◼   ► code written or things like that and you

00:15:17 ◼   ► know as I started evaluating over cash

00:15:19 ◼   ► in this way I sort of you know when I

00:15:21 ◼   ► built my own analytics to replace fabric

00:15:22 ◼   ► a few months back and I started doing I

00:15:25 ◼   ► started measuring monthly active users

00:15:26 ◼   ► really the first time and you know

00:15:28 ◼   ► anybody who does this just sees two

00:15:32 ◼   ► things a

00:15:34 ◼   ► way more people install the app than use

00:15:36 ◼   ► the app be lots of people use the app

00:15:39 ◼   ► first and then stop using it and you

00:15:42 ◼   ► could kind of lose them they just kind

00:15:44 ◼   ► of you know they don't really stick and

00:15:46 ◼   ► so it's very very tempting for anybody

00:15:49 ◼   ► measuring any kind of engagement type

00:15:51 ◼   ► activity in their app like this to make

00:15:55 ◼   ► changes like adding notifications or

00:15:57 ◼   ► sending out email reminders or things

00:15:58 ◼   ► like that to make these changes to

00:16:00 ◼   ► remind people to get back into the app

00:16:01 ◼   ► and that feels so spammy to me like I

00:16:04 ◼   ► really don't like that however I do

00:16:06 ◼   ► think you know in areas like this I

00:16:08 ◼   ► think it is possible and reasonable that

00:16:13 ◼   ► not every app will have a way to do this

00:16:15 ◼   ► but that many apps have an opportunity

00:16:18 ◼   ► here to remind people to come back to

00:16:20 ◼   ► the app in a way that doesn't just feel

00:16:22 ◼   ► like outright spam it's a very very hard

00:16:25 ◼   ► line to lock and again not every app is

00:16:26 ◼   ► going to have something like this that

00:16:28 ◼   ► they can do whether it would make sense

00:16:30 ◼   ► to do I always think of like James

00:16:32 ◼   ► Thomson's pea calc app which is a

00:16:34 ◼   ► wonderful calculator and James is he is

00:16:37 ◼   ► so devoted to this app on these

00:16:38 ◼   ► platforms he adds every feature he

00:16:40 ◼   ► possibly can like whenever iOS enables

00:16:42 ◼   ► something new like now you can change

00:16:44 ◼   ► your calculators icon to like all sorts

00:16:46 ◼   ► of wonderful little icon and you just

00:16:47 ◼   ► iOS finally added that option he has

00:16:49 ◼   ► like a version of it for Apple TV stuff

00:16:51 ◼   ► like that and I always think of like an

00:16:53 ◼   ► app like that calculator utility app

00:16:56 ◼   ► what would that do with some of these

00:16:59 ◼   ► you know tricky behaviors or engagements

00:17:01 ◼   ► or in-app purchase options and it's hard

00:17:02 ◼   ► and it reminds me like so many apps it's

00:17:05 ◼   ► hard to come up with useful ways you can

00:17:08 ◼   ► either you know have in-app purchases to

00:17:11 ◼   ► help you achieve a more successful

00:17:13 ◼   ► business model or sustainable business

00:17:15 ◼   ► model or you know things like how do you

00:17:18 ◼   ► use notifications to increase engagement

00:17:21 ◼   ► sometimes it's just really hard for the

00:17:23 ◼   ► app sometimes there is an option like

00:17:24 ◼   ► you know what speak how it gonna do like

00:17:26 ◼   ► bother you you know every every like you

00:17:29 ◼   ► know a few days saying hey need any math

00:17:32 ◼   ► to do you haven't done any map in the

00:17:33 ◼   ► last few days I can help you out there

00:17:34 ◼   ► like it's just so many apps are not

00:17:36 ◼   ► gonna have a reasonable way to do this

00:17:39 ◼   ► that doesn't just seem like pointless

00:17:41 ◼   ► spam to the user so when you have

00:17:44 ◼   ► something like that like you do with

00:17:46 ◼   ► these fitness apps or you

00:17:47 ◼   ► have like as usually the coaching

00:17:49 ◼   ► behavior goal-setting you can notify

00:17:51 ◼   ► people about their progress towards a

00:17:53 ◼   ► goal and help them reach it if they are

00:17:54 ◼   ► about to not reach it or congratulate

00:17:56 ◼   ► them when they do reach it that is

00:17:59 ◼   ► actually valuable for this type of app

00:18:01 ◼   ► in a way that is way more way more

00:18:04 ◼   ► clearly valuable and not spamming that

00:18:06 ◼   ► in most apps have the opportunity to do

00:18:09 ◼   ► so it almost be a waste for you not to

00:18:12 ◼   ► do features like this the only reason I

00:18:14 ◼   ► think you wouldn't want to do a feature

00:18:15 ◼   ► like this is either if Apple bans it

00:18:18 ◼   ► which they haven't and likely won't or

00:18:21 ◼   ► if you just don't want to justify

00:18:23 ◼   ► putting this much time into this app

00:18:24 ◼   ► like if the app for you was otherwise

00:18:26 ◼   ► pretty much done and you wanted to

00:18:28 ◼   ► invest a time in a different app but as

00:18:30 ◼   ► long as you're investing time into

00:18:31 ◼   ► building features for this app that

00:18:32 ◼   ► feature seems like low-hanging fruit and

00:18:34 ◼   ► it seemed like a win all around anyway

00:18:38 ◼   ► we are sponsored this week by xoj o XO

00:18:41 ◼   ► Jo Jo Jo you can go to xoj o comm slash

00:18:44 ◼   ► radar to learn more so Jo is a

00:18:47 ◼   ► cross-platform development tool for

00:18:49 ◼   ► creating native apps for the desktop

00:18:50 ◼   ► mobile web and raspberry pi even though

00:18:54 ◼   ► Jo currently supports Mac OS Windows

00:18:55 ◼   ► Linux iOS and even coming soon Android

00:18:59 ◼   ► with xoj o you can write just one

00:19:00 ◼   ► version of your app say for example on

00:19:03 ◼   ► the Mac and all you do is check a

00:19:04 ◼   ► checkbox and you can have a completely

00:19:06 ◼   ► native Windows version as well

00:19:07 ◼   ► so Jo uses native controls so your app

00:19:09 ◼   ► looks at home on every platform and

00:19:12 ◼   ► you'll be able to build these apps ten

00:19:13 ◼   ► times faster so you save tons of time

00:19:15 ◼   ► and money so Jo is great for everyone

00:19:17 ◼   ► from newbies to professional developers

00:19:20 ◼   ► and so Jo is currently used by over

00:19:22 ◼   ► 300,000 developers worldwide from

00:19:24 ◼   ► students all the way up to fortune 500

00:19:27 ◼   ► companies go and take a look at their

00:19:28 ◼   ► site and you will see just how many

00:19:30 ◼   ► companies that you know and recognize

00:19:32 ◼   ► use so Jo it's free to use and licenses

00:19:35 ◼   ► are required to build standalone

00:19:36 ◼   ► applications you can try it out you can

00:19:37 ◼   ► see how it goes go to so Jo calm slash

00:19:40 ◼   ► radar that's XO Jo comm slash radar to

00:19:44 ◼   ► learn more and you can get 20% off any

00:19:47 ◼   ► license by using code radar at checkout

00:19:50 ◼   ► once again Zoe Joe comm / radar and use

00:19:52 ◼   ► code radar for 20% off any license thank

00:19:55 ◼   ► you very much - so Jo for supporting

00:19:56 ◼   ► this show and all of relay fm

00:19:58 ◼   ► so you're doing a very good job

00:20:02 ◼   ► turning me a little bit on this I'll say

00:20:05 ◼   ► the things that come to mind though that

00:20:07 ◼   ► are kind of interesting as I try and

00:20:10 ◼   ► think through if I were to go down this

00:20:11 ◼   ► road of like being a bit more chatty or

00:20:14 ◼   ► emitting but more engaged

00:20:15 ◼   ► I think first is the thing that I'm

00:20:17 ◼   ► realizing as you're describing the

00:20:19 ◼   ► situation is in many ways I am reticent

00:20:23 ◼   ► to do this because of the experience

00:20:26 ◼   ► I've had in other applications that were

00:20:29 ◼   ► not respectful in their use of something

00:20:32 ◼   ► like this and in some ways as I'm as

00:20:37 ◼   ► emitting here thinking about it in some

00:20:39 ◼   ► ways it's nice to think of this as a

00:20:40 ◼   ► potential opportunity as a result it's

00:20:44 ◼   ► like the doing it in a respectful

00:20:47 ◼   ► thoughtful way that is clearly not

00:20:50 ◼   ► spammy or problematic in those kinds of

00:20:54 ◼   ► ways is potentially an advantage is

00:20:57 ◼   ► potentially something that would be

00:20:58 ◼   ► distinctive and attractive to users and

00:21:03 ◼   ► I should not have in my mind that just

00:21:05 ◼   ► like doing something like this is always

00:21:08 ◼   ► sketchy because just because other

00:21:11 ◼   ► developers have done something like this

00:21:14 ◼   ► in a sketchy way you know it doesn't

00:21:16 ◼   ► preclude me from finding a you know

00:21:18 ◼   ► finding the right way to do this and in

00:21:21 ◼   ► many ways I think that's something that

00:21:22 ◼   ► in the back of my mind is I'm developing

00:21:24 ◼   ► that's like my goal in most things is to

00:21:26 ◼   ► try and find that respectful thoughtful

00:21:29 ◼   ► approach to something that is

00:21:31 ◼   ► potentially different then you know a

00:21:34 ◼   ► may more out of like a mainstream

00:21:36 ◼   ► competitor like a big larger company so

00:21:39 ◼   ► that's I think a is good to keep in mind

00:21:41 ◼   ► and then to something that is

00:21:43 ◼   ► interesting that's probably worth

00:21:45 ◼   ► unpacking slightly just from a technical

00:21:47 ◼   ► perspective is the interesting thing

00:21:49 ◼   ► with notifications on iOS is that they

00:21:52 ◼   ► are always opt-in unless unless your

00:21:57 ◼   ► Apple in which case you don't have to

00:21:58 ◼   ► have user opt into notifications which

00:22:00 ◼   ► is a side note but in our applications

00:22:03 ◼   ► we have to have users opt into them and

00:22:06 ◼   ► so as it the interesting thing is I

00:22:08 ◼   ► think about this is like earlier you

00:22:09 ◼   ► need to I think the the very valid point

00:22:11 ◼   ► that having some like this not on by

00:22:14 ◼   ► default

00:22:15 ◼   ► Dramastic drastically diminishes its

00:22:17 ◼   ► impact because very few people

00:22:19 ◼   ► proportionally will turn it on and it's

00:22:23 ◼   ► tricky though with notifications because

00:22:24 ◼   ► you in order to enable it they have to

00:22:28 ◼   ► pop up you know a modal blocker that

00:22:30 ◼   ► says would you like to allow this

00:22:32 ◼   ► application to send you notifications

00:22:33 ◼   ► you know if I don't do that I can't show

00:22:36 ◼   ► you a notification so either after - you

00:22:39 ◼   ► know so I have to at some point I have

00:22:40 ◼   ► to show this to you now if it's not

00:22:43 ◼   ► enabled by default then I would just

00:22:46 ◼   ► have this be you know in the Settings

00:22:48 ◼   ► app would be like an area that was just

00:22:50 ◼   ► like coaching and we'll have a little

00:22:52 ◼   ► description of what coaching would be

00:22:53 ◼   ► and then a you know like a a switch that

00:22:56 ◼   ► you would turn on and when you let me

00:22:57 ◼   ► know at that moment when you first

00:22:59 ◼   ► turned it on it would pop up into

00:23:01 ◼   ► blocker at that point and say hey you

00:23:02 ◼   ► know in order for me to get send you

00:23:04 ◼   ► these coaching prompts I just need to

00:23:05 ◼   ► and you need to give me permission to do

00:23:07 ◼   ► this which feels very natural but if I

00:23:11 ◼   ► wanted it to be enabled by default but I

00:23:12 ◼   ► would have to do is presumably the first

00:23:15 ◼   ► time you install the app probably or

00:23:17 ◼   ► very shortly thereafter just sort of

00:23:20 ◼   ► blindly pop up this notification that

00:23:23 ◼   ► says hey I you know this app can send

00:23:25 ◼   ► you coaching stuff do you want to say

00:23:27 ◼   ► yes you know would you like me to do

00:23:29 ◼   ► that or not and like that's I think in

00:23:31 ◼   ► many ways if anything the thing that I

00:23:33 ◼   ► get more stuck on especially because the

00:23:35 ◼   ► app already unfortunately has one of

00:23:38 ◼   ► those right now because when you first

00:23:40 ◼   ► install the app it pops up a

00:23:41 ◼   ► notification that says would you give me

00:23:43 ◼   ► permission to access your motion and

00:23:44 ◼   ► Fitness data because the app is

00:23:46 ◼   ► completely useless without turning that

00:23:49 ◼   ► on and so it's interesting because I

00:23:51 ◼   ► don't think I would ever feel good about

00:23:53 ◼   ► and having it always on by default

00:23:55 ◼   ► because I would have to show that

00:23:56 ◼   ► notification as part of the like

00:24:00 ◼   ► onboarding process unless then it goes

00:24:03 ◼   ► like okay well then that's when you

00:24:05 ◼   ► start doing the like the big walkthrough

00:24:07 ◼   ► thing where it you know the first time

00:24:09 ◼   ► you launch the app it kind of has this

00:24:10 ◼   ► little walkthrough thing where it's like

00:24:12 ◼   ► hey this app needs your motion data it's

00:24:15 ◼   ► about to ask you to ask you for it okay

00:24:17 ◼   ► and then it asks you for it and then the

00:24:18 ◼   ► next page is like hey this has coaching

00:24:21 ◼   ► would you like coaching and you kind of

00:24:22 ◼   ► have the user fill out a questionnaire

00:24:25 ◼   ► on their first run experience which

00:24:28 ◼   ► I don't love either but anyway these are

00:24:30 ◼   ► just some funny things as you as you

00:24:33 ◼   ► convinced me to explore this more and

00:24:35 ◼   ► not just discount it offhand these are

00:24:37 ◼   ► the kind of things that I start to then

00:24:38 ◼   ► think about because there's some

00:24:39 ◼   ► interesting technical challenges to

00:24:41 ◼   ► going down this road as well what about

00:24:43 ◼   ► if you if you instead of like naming it

00:24:46 ◼   ► coaching necessarily and and just asking

00:24:48 ◼   ► do you want coaching that's kind of

00:24:49 ◼   ► vague people might not get like what

00:24:51 ◼   ► that is or why I would want that how

00:24:53 ◼   ► about you you make it a two-step process

00:24:55 ◼   ► you know you have step one it please

00:24:57 ◼   ► Mabel your emotion prompt done okay and

00:24:59 ◼   ► then and then second screen is what

00:25:01 ◼   ► would you like your goal to be your

00:25:03 ◼   ► daily goal and then you on that same

00:25:06 ◼   ► screen you can sit you could have you

00:25:08 ◼   ► know an option that says would you like

00:25:10 ◼   ► to be reminded about the progress you're

00:25:12 ◼   ► making or know it would like to be

00:25:13 ◼   ► notified about the progress you're

00:25:14 ◼   ► making towards your daily goal and then

00:25:16 ◼   ► that prompts them for notifications yeah

00:25:18 ◼   ► it's like it's doing it in that kind of

00:25:21 ◼   ► having an onboarding process and then

00:25:23 ◼   ► for existing users you on the first on

00:25:26 ◼   ► the first one of the new verbs and you

00:25:27 ◼   ► put up a box saying would you like to

00:25:29 ◼   ► review your daily goal and then on that

00:25:31 ◼   ► screen have you know because you know

00:25:35 ◼   ► right now this is you know this is

00:25:36 ◼   ► something that again like in a way that

00:25:38 ◼   ► would make sense as a feature for a user

00:25:40 ◼   ► you might want to you know similar to

00:25:42 ◼   ► what the Apple watch does you might want

00:25:44 ◼   ► to have periodic prompts to the user of

00:25:46 ◼   ► like you know you've been hitting your

00:25:48 ◼   ► daily goal every day and exceeding it by

00:25:50 ◼   ► like thirty percent for a while you want

00:25:52 ◼   ► to maybe increase it or if they never

00:25:55 ◼   ► hit their daily goal you can problem to

00:25:56 ◼   ► say do you want to modify your goal you

00:25:58 ◼   ► know maybe it may be low you know you

00:26:00 ◼   ► got it carefully obviously to not show

00:26:02 ◼   ► like hey you're kind of lazy you know

00:26:04 ◼   ► but like that like there's a way to do

00:26:06 ◼   ► that where it is part of a feature is

00:26:08 ◼   ► actually helpful you know and and the

00:26:09 ◼   ► Apple watch shows such a great example

00:26:11 ◼   ► of this and there's a lot of people out

00:26:13 ◼   ► there who don't have Apple watches but

00:26:15 ◼   ► do have iPhones so this could really be

00:26:18 ◼   ► a big help for them and and this could

00:26:21 ◼   ► bring a lot of the value of the Apple

00:26:23 ◼   ► watch with its like daily fitness rings

00:26:25 ◼   ► it can bring a lot of that value to

00:26:27 ◼   ► iPhone users who don't have the watch

00:26:28 ◼   ► and so I feel like if you roll this in

00:26:32 ◼   ► as just like a couple of minor prompts

00:26:34 ◼   ► like periodic goal change prompts

00:26:36 ◼   ► depending on their on performance and

00:26:37 ◼   ► then also like do you want to be

00:26:40 ◼   ► notified of your progress

00:26:41 ◼   ► with this goal that you're setting or

00:26:43 ◼   ► modifying on in this screen simple is

00:26:45 ◼   ► that then you have then you cover

00:26:46 ◼   ► adjusting and new users I mean this is

00:26:48 ◼   ► I'm just spitballing here I have done

00:26:50 ◼   ► you know thought about this at all

00:26:50 ◼   ► besides what's happened on the on the

00:26:52 ◼   ► air right now but like this could be

00:26:55 ◼   ► like kind of one thing because you know

00:26:58 ◼   ► this you do have to think so hard when

00:27:00 ◼   ► you're designing apps about in wording

00:27:02 ◼   ► of things when you ask for permission to

00:27:05 ◼   ► do things and like notifications you

00:27:07 ◼   ► know how you ask when you ask how it's

00:27:10 ◼   ► pretend to the user what what kind of

00:27:11 ◼   ► selling proposition is being shown of

00:27:13 ◼   ► them like if you just if you just ask

00:27:16 ◼   ► for notifications kind of like the dumb

00:27:17 ◼   ► way like in your after you finish

00:27:19 ◼   ► launching method and so that way like

00:27:21 ◼   ► the very first time they launch the app

00:27:23 ◼   ► just asks they don't know yet why you

00:27:26 ◼   ► want notifications like you haven't

00:27:28 ◼   ► actually shown them why and so you will

00:27:30 ◼   ► probably have a lower accept rate or

00:27:33 ◼   ► lower opt-in rate unless you have shown

00:27:35 ◼   ► them a good reason why but if you have

00:27:37 ◼   ► this you know you already have that

00:27:38 ◼   ► problem with the motion setting so you

00:27:40 ◼   ► already have a system in place to kind

00:27:42 ◼   ► of let the first-run experience to

00:27:43 ◼   ► manage that it would not be that much

00:27:45 ◼   ► work to add a second screen to that did

00:27:47 ◼   ► that just says alright how about your

00:27:48 ◼   ► goal what kind of goal do you want and

00:27:49 ◼   ► then you know roll it in with that yeah

00:27:52 ◼   ► maybe and it's yeah it's interesting I

00:27:55 ◼   ► mean that's how I'm glad we talked about

00:27:56 ◼   ► on the show cuz it's it's it's these

00:27:58 ◼   ► these types of things where I make a

00:28:00 ◼   ► choice and then I'm I don't feel

00:28:02 ◼   ► confident in the finality of that and

00:28:05 ◼   ► it's certainly helpful I think to talk

00:28:06 ◼   ► it through because there's a lot of

00:28:06 ◼   ► these you know there's so many different

00:28:08 ◼   ► options and I think too

00:28:09 ◼   ► maybe it's a closing thought like the

00:28:11 ◼   ► thing that comes to mind is how in many

00:28:15 ◼   ► ways we have to make choices about the

00:28:18 ◼   ► the sort of the scope of our application

00:28:21 ◼   ► and they had the type of customers we

00:28:22 ◼   ► want in the sense that do I am one of

00:28:26 ◼   ► the things that in the back of my mind I

00:28:27 ◼   ► then have to decide is do I want to have

00:28:29 ◼   ► an app with lots and lots of slightly

00:28:33 ◼   ► interested users or do I want to have

00:28:36 ◼   ► optimized for fewer fanatical users for

00:28:40 ◼   ► example like and these are the kinds of

00:28:42 ◼   ► things that go on in the back of my mind

00:28:43 ◼   ► when I try and think through features

00:28:45 ◼   ► like this because in some ways I think

00:28:46 ◼   ► my general my knee-jerk reaction is

00:28:50 ◼   ► always I would rather have fewer very

00:28:52 ◼   ► very passionate engaged users then

00:28:55 ◼   ► lots and lots of users who don't really

00:28:57 ◼   ► care it's not with the paid upfront

00:28:59 ◼   ► price you don't yeah well there's a

00:29:02 ◼   ► three so that's right it is free and

00:29:04 ◼   ► it's just the tip jar right yeah it's

00:29:06 ◼   ► just has a tip jar so but it you know

00:29:08 ◼   ► and so it's it's interesting to just try

00:29:10 ◼   ► and think through what kind of users I

00:29:11 ◼   ► want and then how do I want to treat

00:29:13 ◼   ► those users and I think as long as I do

00:29:14 ◼   ► that respectfully then you know I'll

00:29:16 ◼   ► probably be in good shape but it's just

00:29:18 ◼   ► it is a good reminder of all the

00:29:20 ◼   ► different things that we have to balance

00:29:21 ◼   ► you know to make our apps be the things

00:29:23 ◼   ► we want them to be I think you're pretty

00:29:25 ◼   ► respectful all right I hope so we're out

00:29:27 ◼   ► of time this week thanks for listening

00:29:29 ◼   ► and we'll talk to you next week bye