0:00:00welcome to under the radar a show about
0:00:02independent iOS app development I'm
0:00:04Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
0:00:07the radar is never longer than 30
0:00:08minutes so let's get started so you as
0:00:13the listener would probably not be aware
0:00:14of this but Marco and I have actually
0:00:18been doing a fair bit of traveling
0:00:19recently and so we've the you know we've
0:00:21been having an interesting cycle of
0:00:23recording shows slightly out of sequence
0:00:25or bunching them up but for me the most
0:00:28most recent thing was the last last week
0:00:30I went on a 110 mile Appalachian Trail
0:00:37like backpacking trip and did by myself
0:00:40and ended up with a lot of time too
0:00:43so I guess as I was wandering around to
0:00:46think about you know anything about
0:00:50think about my work think about whether
0:00:51the things I was making and as a result
0:00:54of that I think it came with it with a
0:00:55topic that would be interesting to
0:00:56discuss here I guess you could say I
0:00:58developed some perspective
0:00:59well I while I was out on my walk and
0:01:05specifically the something that I kept
0:01:06coming back to was this feeling that one
0:01:10of the things that is the biggest
0:01:12challenge I faced in in my work and I
0:01:15think as an independent is something
0:01:17that is a pretty common challenge to to
0:01:22deal with it's this feeling of how do
0:01:24you deal with like difficult hard often
0:01:28not particularly interesting problems
0:01:31that are necessary or are part of the
0:01:34you know the part of the work that you
0:01:36do because you know I was as I was
0:01:38walking along I was thinking about kind
0:01:39of like the tasks that I'd like to do in
0:01:41my apps you know what are the big
0:01:42features what are the things that I want
0:01:44to tackle and I noticed that almost
0:01:48everything on the list at this point you
0:01:50know for a lot of my apps are fairly
0:01:52mature the things that I run into now
0:01:55are these difficult hard problems that
0:02:00you know I know we're solvable it's not
0:02:02like I'm doing doing some kind of R&D
0:02:04thing where I'm junior I just want to
0:02:06like go and invent some crazy new thing
0:02:09it's like these aren't problems that I
0:02:10feel like ours should be in the realm of
0:02:12solvable but they're difficult
0:02:13but they're hard and being motivated to
0:02:17tackle them when it isn't the situation
0:02:20that I have you know have a boss who's
0:02:23assigning them to me like here's this
0:02:25feature that you must implement you know
0:02:26here's what you're going to work on for
0:02:28the next three weeks if that were the
0:02:30case that might be a little bit easier
0:02:31but you know when I have to choose to
0:02:35essentially I have to choose to
0:02:36undertake the pain that I know is going
0:02:38to be implementing that feature going
0:02:40down the road of you know lots of dead
0:02:43ends lots of features lots of you know
0:02:45false starts and you know it attempts at
0:02:48this particular solution that turns out
0:02:50to not work out being motivated to do
0:02:53that is something that I struggle with
0:02:56but in retrospect when I look at it I
0:02:58always yeah it's like some of the
0:02:59features that I'm most proud of tend to
0:03:02be you know features where I was able to
0:03:05get over that hump and actually start
0:03:07working actually get into it actually
0:03:09solve it you know and then I can look
0:03:11back and it's usually that's that's the
0:03:13cool stuff that's the stuff that
0:03:15separates my apps from you know my
0:03:18competitors are trying to tackle these
0:03:20features and one thing that I think and
0:03:24so as a surface a jumping in point for
0:03:25this I would wanted to say is I've
0:03:27always admired with you Marco that it
0:03:29seems like these are you kind of these
0:03:31are the features that you almost seem to
0:03:34relish in doing that going off on these
0:03:36several month like vision quests where
0:03:39you dive down into these really
0:03:42complicated low-level or hard to solve
0:03:46problems and then you know coming back
0:03:47with really cool solutions is something
0:03:50that you've done time and time again for
0:03:52all of the products that you've made and
0:03:54so as I was sitting there we're
0:03:56wandering around and being thinking
0:03:57about this I was like you know what I
0:03:58need to do I need to ask Marco like how
0:04:01do you motivate yourself to tackle those
0:04:05kinds of problems when you know they're
0:04:06going to be difficult to get started
0:04:08with I think it's a lot of like what's
0:04:13what satisfies you as a programmer like
0:04:15what do you most like to do and you know
0:04:19this is different for a lot of people
0:04:21typically you know what's what's fairly
0:04:23common among most programmers is that we
0:04:25like to generally work on new things at
0:04:26least you know so that's
0:04:27that's like one-one you know big gimme
0:04:30is like you know we are almost always
0:04:32motivated to to work on something new
0:04:34that's it that interests us for me one
0:04:37of those things is tricky low-level code
0:04:42some kind of like you know low-level
0:04:46dealing with bits or bytes or sound or
0:04:50algorithm type things that aren't too
0:04:53academically hard but that require like
0:04:56low-level messing around I always really
0:05:00enjoy that stuff so you know it in in
0:05:03overcast there's things like the audio
0:05:04engine you know all the effects the be
0:05:08smart speed of voice boost effects you
0:05:10know that that stuff always I just did
0:05:13enjoy it and when when there's something
0:05:15like that that I enjoy you know like
0:05:17most programmers I would I think I would
0:05:19rather work on the kind of thing I enjoy
0:05:21even if it means you know ignoring or
0:05:24procrastinating the more boring things
0:05:27that I probably should also do I think
0:05:28this is a problem most programmers have
0:05:30the only question is what those
0:05:31interesting things are I mean to me like
0:05:34here I was like writing this crazy you
0:05:36know watch offline transcoding engine
0:05:40and at the same time ice overcast is
0:05:44almost three years old and I've never
0:05:46had an email change form and my password
0:05:48resets are I think a little bit broken
0:05:50that that is totally backwards
0:05:53priorities like I really like I get
0:05:55emails from people I'd say almost every
0:05:59day saying hey is there a way for me to
0:06:02change my account email address and the
0:06:04answer is no there isn't and there
0:06:06really should be I should have done that
0:06:08like on week one or week two overcast
0:06:11almost three years ago but I haven't
0:06:13because it's it's never you know the
0:06:17idea of doing that is like you know
0:06:19terminally uninteresting to me to the
0:06:22point where anything else that I have to
0:06:24do with the app has taken priority over
0:06:27that for the last two two-and-a-half
0:06:28years and so for me like diving into
0:06:32these really hard tricky problems is you
0:06:36know it's often procrastination and it's
0:06:39off it's just it's what I like to do
0:06:41it's like
0:06:41anything I like to do for me like what's
0:06:44what's heavily motivating usually is
0:06:47either things that are things that make
0:06:50me money directly like like you know
0:06:53writing an ad system writing that system
0:06:55has actually been a lot more work than I
0:06:56expected it to be it's you know it's not
0:06:58I'm not like writing a whole network
0:07:00like Adsense or anything but just
0:07:03putting the parts in place to have a
0:07:04decent ad system that's that's but
0:07:07that's good for both me and the buyers
0:07:09of the ads and the users and you know
0:07:12and all the different like little
0:07:13management tools you need like the
0:07:15ability to like to monitor how they're
0:07:17doing and give people stats and issue
0:07:18refunds if necessary and things like
0:07:20that you know I I'm having to build all
0:07:22this stuff from scratch and I'm I've
0:07:24been mostly motivated to do that pretty
0:07:26well because it is directly related to
0:07:29how I'm making money and it's doing well
0:07:31so far so that that motivates me on that
0:07:33angle but also I get very heavily
0:07:35motivated by doing something cool with
0:07:38you know with low level stuff you know
0:07:40like this morning so we're doing were
0:07:43actually doing live shows we as we
0:07:45mentioned on this show I think a couple
0:07:47of weeks ago we are doing under the
0:07:49radar live at Cocoa conf at WBC that
0:07:52COCOMs running a conference called next
0:07:53door which is like literally next door
0:07:56down the block from the from Muska or
0:07:58from the San Jose Convention Center
0:08:00where WBC is being held and we will be
0:08:02doing this show live that week on the
0:08:05Tuesday because I think June 6th right
0:08:07at about 1:45 p.m. Pacific and and I'm
0:08:12also also doing ATP live the day before
0:08:15then the evening before at Coco Kampf
0:08:17I mean sorry adult conf rather and so
0:08:20we're doing these live shows and I
0:08:22thought you know it would be nice if I
0:08:24had a soundboard app for ATP and a timer
0:08:27app for this show and to show on my
0:08:31computer screen during the show so this
0:08:34morning I I spent this morning writing a
0:08:37sound board there are a million sound
0:08:39board apps out there but none of them
0:08:40were exactly what I wanted I wanted of
0:08:41course my own custom thing because I'm
0:08:43I'm picky like that and so I spent the
0:08:45morning writing a sound board I was
0:08:46woken up early by my allergies I
0:08:48couldn't breathe anymore so I figured
0:08:49let's get to programming it can't sleep
0:08:51anymore so let's get the program
0:08:53so so that was you know novel it was
0:08:57kind of dealing with audio stuff because
0:08:59of course I had to build in things like
0:09:00automatically detecting when the out
0:09:02when the output device becomes
0:09:03unavailable and putting up a little
0:09:05alert thing on the top so I don't you
0:09:08know so I noticed that if I'd happens
0:09:09during recording stuff I'm never gonna
0:09:11really need like I'm really glad that
0:09:13that makes no no sense I shouldn't have
0:09:16written my own soundboard app there's
0:09:18there's many of them in the App Store on
0:09:20the Mac App Store there's probably even
0:09:22more in iOS and there's probably eat
0:09:25there's even more of them outside of the
0:09:27App Store but I wrote it anyway because
0:09:29I had a few hours to kill I was
0:09:31delirious from waking up too early on
0:09:33allergy medicine and I decided you know
0:09:35what this is gonna be a fun thing to do
0:09:36and I approached the the watch offline
0:09:40playback thing with pretty much the same
0:09:43motivations - the allergy component
0:09:45because it was at the winter time and my
0:09:49motivation there was really like I I
0:09:52want to you know IIIi was I wanted to
0:09:56make this feature and why I wanted to
0:09:58make it I guess we can get into some
0:09:59other time or maybe later but I wanted
0:10:01to make this feature and I knew it was
0:10:04not going to be used by a lot of people
0:10:07but I thought if I'm going to do this
0:10:09feature I need to do it well and the
0:10:12biggest problem was you know on the like
0:10:15transferring files to the watch like
0:10:17there's no I couldn't do smart speed on
0:10:18the watch and the trend the file
0:10:20transfers were giant and too slow to
0:10:22chance to transfer so I decided let me
0:10:25see if I can write a transcoding engine
0:10:26because you know I I phones are pretty
0:10:28fast these days and so what this this
0:10:31was kind of like a like a perfect storm
0:10:34of motivations for me to do something
0:10:37which is that it was a hard technical
0:10:40challenge none of my competitors as far
0:10:43as I know were doing it and it
0:10:47accomplished something that I think most
0:10:51people thought wasn't possible or
0:10:52wouldn't have thought to do and I love
0:10:55that combination like to me that's a
0:10:57huge motivator and then to end it to
0:11:00also involve you know there's this
0:11:01low-level audio stuff that I enjoy so
0:11:03much was it was just the cherry on top
0:11:06and then of course up
0:11:07zatia trying to make the transcodes
0:11:08faster it's a fun game to play when
0:11:11you're a programmer of like hey you know
0:11:12if I if I change the way I do this it
0:11:14becomes 10 times faster let's see how
0:11:15many times I can do that and it it ends
0:11:19up just being very satisfying and this
0:11:21is this was one of the problems with
0:11:24being an indie and not having anybody
0:11:26like telling me what I need to be
0:11:28working on that often times these kind
0:11:30of deep dives into difficult technical
0:11:33features often times these are not a
0:11:34good idea often times they're not an
0:11:36efficient use of your time in fact I
0:11:38would say probably most of the time they
0:11:40aren't an efficient use of your time but
0:11:43because I define my own you know to-do
0:11:47list basically and that's one of the
0:11:49benefits of doing your own products
0:11:51because it I find my own to-do list I
0:11:53basically take the indulgence of doing
0:11:57cool things like this because it let's
0:11:58be honest it is largely an indulgence to
0:12:00be able to do stuff like this cuz you
0:12:02know a lot of times you're not gonna get
0:12:03paid back on I mean I did this entire
0:12:05watch offline playback feature and so
0:12:08far it's being used by something like
0:12:100.2% of users every day it's it's very
0:12:13very low according to my awesome
0:12:14home-built analytics which I also built
0:12:16but there's actually isn't awesome it is
0:12:19home built analytics I would not
0:12:20describe it as awesome but so you know
0:12:23it's being used by very few people it
0:12:25probably isn't the best idea for
0:12:27business to have done it if I am honest
0:12:29with myself but it was a really hard
0:12:31problem that that satisfied me immensely
0:12:34while working on it it is right am I in
0:12:37my wheelhouse of like low-level audio
0:12:39stuff that I enjoy working on so much
0:12:40and it gave me a competitive advantage
0:12:44even though it's a very very small one
0:12:45but it gave me a competitive advantage
0:12:47at least for the time being and I'm you
0:12:49know I'm sure that won't last very long
0:12:50but for the time being it's there and so
0:12:53all those it just it forms motivation
0:12:57like when it has a combination like that
0:12:58whereas if you are somebody who doesn't
0:13:01like working on low level C code for
0:13:03dealing with core audio stuff or you
0:13:06know whatever it whatever your hard
0:13:08problem that's facing you might be if
0:13:11that doesn't interest you I totally get
0:13:14why you wouldn't want to do it or you
0:13:15know why you'd why you procrastinated or
0:13:17you know just try to find ways around
0:13:19doing it
0:13:21and there's lots of things like that for
0:13:22me just not this kind of thing yeah
0:13:25because I feel like what I'm hearing is
0:13:27it's the a it's like the first step is
0:13:30to kind of try and understand yourself
0:13:33and understand what things are going to
0:13:38mix you know what things are you going
0:13:41to enjoy building are you gonna be
0:13:42motivated to build what's the kind of
0:13:44thing you know what would be like Lola
0:13:46who audio stuff just sounds awful to me
0:13:48like my little experience with that has
0:13:51always been you know pain and suffering
0:13:55rather than you know joy and delight and
0:13:58so like for me you know it's like those
0:14:00probably aren't the directions to that
0:14:02you know would motivate me to go into
0:14:04and I think maybe there's something a
0:14:05interesting and understanding that you
0:14:08know in you and I in some ways are as
0:14:10similar at premium professionally as two
0:14:14people could be in some ways you know
0:14:16we've both been doing the same basically
0:14:18the same job for the last eight years
0:14:21you know we do it in fair in sort of
0:14:23fairly similar ways we make our living
0:14:26fairly similarly yeah but even there
0:14:28even still we have these varied I think
0:14:29very different preferences and things
0:14:34that we would act the parts of the job
0:14:35that we actually enjoy and so it's good
0:14:39to just I think be introspective
0:14:40probably first and understanding you
0:14:44know it when I see myself
0:14:46procrastinating I think one of the
0:14:48things that I've started to try and ask
0:14:50myself it's like why don't I want to do
0:14:53that because usually there's a reason
0:14:55and sometimes it's a good reason and
0:14:58sometimes you know it's a bad reason but
0:15:00you know the end up with lots of the but
0:15:02you end up with the you know this funny
0:15:03situation of at a certain point like
0:15:05either you know when you're independent
0:15:09you either will be in the situation
0:15:10where the thing just won't get done
0:15:13because there's not like there's someone
0:15:15else on the team who it can get punted
0:15:17to it's like it's you're you're going to
0:15:20do it or you're not and so trying to at
0:15:24least understand why you're not doing it
0:15:26you know there are many features and I
0:15:28mean I have whole apps that you know
0:15:30I've sort of I've half-heartedly built
0:15:32or I
0:15:33I didn't it's nice for some reason
0:15:36didn't catch my imagination I guess you
0:15:38could say it's like if it if it didn't
0:15:40if it doesn't have that getting can't
0:15:42get over that initial hump it'll just
0:15:44sit there and kind of languish and even
0:15:46when it might from a business
0:15:50perspective be a good idea or you know
0:15:52from a just in a utility to the world's
0:15:56perspective might be a good thing like
0:15:58theirs if it doesn't catch my attention
0:16:02I know I won't really be able to do it
0:16:05and so it is something that I don't but
0:16:06I think increasingly and this is where I
0:16:09was trying to think I'm sort of coming
0:16:11around to is well while I think that is
0:16:14how I've acted for for a long time now
0:16:18like I look at my board my business and
0:16:19I think you know like I think I'm by
0:16:23allowing myself to do the things that
0:16:27only the things that I enjoy I'm
0:16:29probably hurting the effectiveness of my
0:16:33of my business which is you know which
0:16:36is problematic in some ways but honestly
0:16:38like the more fundamental thing that I'm
0:16:40starting to worry about and I'm starting
0:16:41to think about a lot more is I'm not
0:16:45getting better at a very fast rate
0:16:49anymore that you know my skills and my
0:16:51abilities as I go down this would be you
0:16:56know as I keep doing the things that I'm
0:16:57good at and enjoy doing I get better I
0:17:01get incrementally better at doing those
0:17:02things but I don't tackle these bigger
0:17:05harder problems and you know it's like
0:17:06your example of like a password reset
0:17:08form or an email change form like it's
0:17:12not that that's a hard text problem to
0:17:14do but I know for myself
0:17:15I have all these features sort of in
0:17:17that vein that I haven't done
0:17:20and as a result like they're probably
0:17:23disproportionately more difficult to do
0:17:26than they should be because it shouldn't
0:17:28be that hard to do a lot some of these
0:17:30things they're fairly straightforward
0:17:31but if you put them off for long enough
0:17:33and you know at a certain point it
0:17:35actually does become difficult because
0:17:36you become very rusty at doing those
0:17:39kinds of things yeah I mean otherwise it
0:17:41would take a lot of rust to be too rusty
0:17:43to make an email change form but sure
0:17:44you know and there's a couple things
0:17:46there I want to unpack
0:17:47you know one of them the the getting
0:17:49better at new things and learning the
0:17:51things that I think we should we should
0:17:52come back to but also you know I think
0:17:54it's important that as I mentioned like
0:17:56one of the one of the benefits of
0:17:58working for yourself is being able to to
0:18:01look at a lot of the things that that
0:18:03the world wants you to do or that you
0:18:06think you're obligated to do and on some
0:18:09of those you can just say no and not all
0:18:11of them and you know some of them are
0:18:12more important than others some of them
0:18:13there's there's more ramifications if
0:18:15you if you don't do them you know that
0:18:18you should think about but you know like
0:18:20so many things I think there's a healthy
0:18:23balance to be found you know you're an
0:18:25indie you have the ability to not do
0:18:28stuff you don't want to do and you have
0:18:31the ability as I said earlier to to you
0:18:33know take the indulgence of working on
0:18:36something that might not be worth the
0:18:38time you're putting into it in pure
0:18:40business terms but that you might want
0:18:41to do anyway it's it's kind of like
0:18:45eating dessert well you know that's
0:18:47that's why I use I use the term
0:18:48indulgence because like you're allowed
0:18:50to give yourself that you're allowed to
0:18:51do these something cool that that it
0:18:54doesn't make sense for that from the
0:18:55business as long as you don't only do
0:18:57that as long as you don't you don't do
0:18:58that out of balance such that your
0:19:00business will suffer and you won't be
0:19:02able to do this anymore like and that's
0:19:03this is a balance that many many
0:19:06companies and Indies have a hard time
0:19:09striking you know everyone has like
0:19:11their pet project they would love to do
0:19:12or their their their preferred way of
0:19:14doing things and and if it's if it
0:19:17doesn't make sense business-wise to do
0:19:19that
0:19:19you can still do it sometimes you know
0:19:21you can have fun with things you can
0:19:23have side projects you can you can you
0:19:25know take the the indulgence of doing
0:19:27some kind of like crazy ridiculous thing
0:19:29to make your app 1% better because you
0:19:31just wanted to do it that just can't be
0:19:33all you do and similarly you know the
0:19:35list of things that like it's a huge
0:19:38problem if you don't do them there are a
0:19:40few things on there that that's true for
0:19:41but that isn't true for the whole list
0:19:43and as an indie I feel like you should
0:19:45you should let yourself have that that's
0:19:47part you know we as Indies we do a lot
0:19:49of a lot more you know administration
0:19:53and management of stuff like taxes and
0:19:55accounting all stuff like we take on a
0:19:57lot of burdens there and we also take a
0:19:59huge risk compared
0:20:01people who work for other people and I
0:20:03think part of the reason we take that
0:20:05and part of the payoff of doing that is
0:20:07this ability to to you know miss spend
0:20:11some of our time because we can we can
0:20:13decide to do that as long as it doesn't
0:20:15cause problems for the business as a
0:20:17whole you know as long as we keep
0:20:18everything a balance this episode of
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0:22:01of this show and all of real afm all
0:22:04right so I think it is worth coming back
0:22:06a little bit to what you said earlier
0:22:07about you know that you're you aren't
0:22:09getting better as quickly as you used to
0:22:11or as quickly as you want to and that's
0:22:13so you know
0:22:14if you do like the indie indulgence I do
0:22:17it I want kind of thing like for too
0:22:18long then this this is a problem that
0:22:21like you will only do the things that
0:22:23you want to do and you won't get better
0:22:26other things and hi I have the same
0:22:29problem in in a lot of areas you know
0:22:31it's so you know for example things like
0:22:33I haven't really been pressured to learn
0:22:34Swift because why would I you know look
0:22:37as we've discussed like wait there's
0:22:39some reasons I'm kind of interested in
0:22:40it a little bit and everything but like
0:22:42when it comes down to you know what I
0:22:44actually do day to day there's nothing
0:22:46really pushing me to learn it right this
0:22:47second or to convert or anything or to
0:22:49write new code and Swift you know right
0:22:50now
0:22:51there is no like you know big standard
0:22:53we also talked about how neither of us
0:22:54are very heavy unit testers
0:22:56there's nothing forcing us to become
0:22:57heavy unit testers but you know certain
0:23:02things do it bring new topics to us and
0:23:05new skills to us out of necessity so
0:23:07things like you know when when it when
0:23:09the AppStore economic landscape shifts
0:23:12around we're forced to do different
0:23:13types of business models are forced to
0:23:15try things like freemium and ads and
0:23:17things like that and and so I feel like
0:23:20just being in this ecosystem does push
0:23:24us into a few new things here and there
0:23:26but obviously not you know every kind of
0:23:29thing I'm wondering like is there is
0:23:30there a specific kind of area or example
0:23:33that that you feel like you you know
0:23:35should be getting better in but just are
0:23:38not being pressured to I mean I think
0:23:40the hardest thing about that question is
0:23:42that it's it falls a lot in the it's
0:23:46like the it's an unknown loss that it's
0:23:50like it's hard for me to know exactly if
0:23:53there's a particular area where I'm
0:23:54deficient because in some ways by the
0:23:57very nature of it being a deficiency
0:23:59being an area that I'm not exposed to
0:24:01being something that I'm not
0:24:03you know it's forcing myself to
0:24:06undertake I don't understand what I'm
0:24:10missing out on and so it's it's tricky
0:24:13like but I think about the situations
0:24:15where like I used to be really scared
0:24:20about dealing with low-level core
0:24:22graphic stuff like that was an area like
0:24:25doing animations or things like that
0:24:27that I used to think
0:24:28we're really it was it was just this
0:24:31whole this little black box that I never
0:24:32opened up that it was just terrifying to
0:24:34me and I read more recently like I've
0:24:39gotten used to that and like I in
0:24:41activity plus plus was in area where
0:24:43it's like I hit this wall where I was
0:24:45trying to make this animation and all of
0:24:47a sudden it's like the only way I'm
0:24:48going to be able to do this is if I drop
0:24:50down a level and so I it's like well I
0:24:54really liked this thought I had in my
0:24:56mind for what the animation would look
0:24:58like and so I dived I drove in and I
0:24:59really you know like learned all this
0:25:02crazy stuff and got it to work and it's
0:25:05like now I have this whole other tool
0:25:07set that I can you know as I'm looking
0:25:11at problems in you know my other apps
0:25:13are in new apps I have this whole tool
0:25:14set that I just completely didn't have
0:25:16before and these capabilities that I
0:25:18didn't even like I sort of
0:25:20intellectually knew probably existed but
0:25:23I didn't really understand what that
0:25:24meant and I think that is like that
0:25:26experience that you can sort of
0:25:29intellectually know that something is
0:25:32possible but until you've actually done
0:25:34it it can be really you don't really
0:25:37know what you're missing out on and I
0:25:39think when I the the thing that I was
0:25:40trying to sort of Chasen myself with in
0:25:44this experience or like in this thought
0:25:46process that I've been having recently
0:25:47is the I don't know what all those
0:25:50things are that I'm missing and but I
0:25:53know that they exist and I want to try
0:25:58and motivate myself to tackle problems
0:26:00that are difficult so that I can
0:26:02discover what those things are because
0:26:05you know the things that I do understand
0:26:07the things that I have a great handle on
0:26:09are the things that are easier are the
0:26:11things that came more naturally to me
0:26:12like another area that I think is
0:26:14something that I'm trying to think about
0:26:16more is having a better understanding
0:26:18around graphic design not necessarily in
0:26:23terms of like app design but in terms of
0:26:25you know like actual art type of things
0:26:28and having a better sense of that worry
0:26:30wreck right now with this big scary
0:26:31thing that like I could never do that
0:26:33but I guess history has shown me that
0:26:35all these things that I say oh I could
0:26:37never do that are probably just things
0:26:39that I haven't
0:26:40tried and applied myself too and it's
0:26:44it's an interesting reminder that you
0:26:47know that's the skills that I have now
0:26:49at some point probably look like they
0:26:52you know these other things look to me
0:26:54now do yeah that's fair but you know I
0:26:57think also like the life of an indie is
0:26:59its broad like they're they're you know
0:27:03like I think graphic design is a good
0:27:04example because like there are lots of
0:27:06things like deep Lilla programming
0:27:08things that that we won't need to know
0:27:12or shouldn't know because we have to be
0:27:14a little more broad and we have to also
0:27:16know about things like accounting and
0:27:19and business setup to some minor degree
0:27:22and things like graphic design a
0:27:24marketing like we like there is so much
0:27:26out there that we need to know that like
0:27:28you know you you might have already
0:27:30picked up lots of these things along the
0:27:32way but you might not be giving yourself
0:27:33credit for them like it you might you
0:27:35know it sounds like certain things that
0:27:37you perceive as like these big walls
0:27:38that that are intimidating to you in
0:27:40some way that those things count in
0:27:43professional development or betterment
0:27:45but that the the things that you that
0:27:48you pickable on the way of being an
0:27:49independent person and doing things the
0:27:51way that you do them especially like so
0:27:53thoroughly and and analytically you've
0:27:55built and picked up lots of skills along
0:27:57the way in that area that you probably
0:28:00don't even that you you probably just
0:28:03you know did it so gradually or so
0:28:04automatically or did it without thinking
0:28:06too much about you know how you were
0:28:09bettering yourself during that time that
0:28:10you aren't even giving yourself credit
0:28:12but that all counts like you were
0:28:14getting better you you've been getting
0:28:15better lots of things over time they
0:28:17just might not be like low-level API is
0:28:19sure and I mean maybe yeah I think
0:28:21you're it's you're probably true that
0:28:22I'm being oh I'm being too hard on
0:28:24myself with this this thought process
0:28:26but yeah I think maybe that may be the
0:28:29final takeaway to think about this it's
0:28:31just I think it is probably a good thing
0:28:33to be conscious of how we're approaching
0:28:37difficult problems to see if we're not
0:28:41doing them we're not approaching them
0:28:43for the right reasons
0:28:44because fair enough I'm never going to
0:28:45be as good of an icon designer as
0:28:47someone like Louie Mantia I mean to be
0:28:50fair enough very few people yeah
0:28:52right and so like it's not like my goal
0:28:55is to do that it's not that I'm trying
0:28:56to be everything and to accomplish all
0:28:59like to do everything all my own but
0:29:03just because I can't get to that end
0:29:05it's probably still good for me to look
0:29:08at something and say well what could I
0:29:09do you know what could I learn what's in
0:29:11what's one area that I can try and solve
0:29:14the difficult problem and by doing so
0:29:16make myself better and that is almost
0:29:20certainly going to be a productive
0:29:21exercise and with that we're out of time
0:29:23this week thank you everybody for
0:29:24listening and we'll talk to you next
0:29:26week right