Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar of show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

◼   ► wanted to talk about sure locking which

◼   ► is a term that is often strikes fear

◼   ► into the hearts of independent

◼   ► developers but first before I get into

◼   ► the actual like our personal experiences

◼   ► with it I didn't want to take a moment

◼   ► to explain what it is and where the term

◼   ► comes from because it is an entirely

◼   ► non-obvious term so it goes back to a

◼   ► utility that was written back many many

◼   ► many years ago that I can't even

◼   ► honestly it was before my time on the

◼   ► Mac but there's utility called Watson

◼   ► that did something and then Apple came

◼   ► along and created and shipped with the

◼   ► OS an application called Sherlock which

◼   ► did everything that Watson did and

◼   ► effectively put Watson out of business

◼   ► so Sherlock he has taken on the

◼   ► connotation of any time Apple or I guess

◼   ► you could probably generalize this to

◼   ► you know the platform vendor takes a

◼   ► feature or functionality or a whole

◼   ► stock in application and copies it and

◼   ► ships it sort of by default into the

◼   ► operating system which as you would

◼   ► expect is often something that is a

◼   ► little bit scary for that developer who

◼   ► just got copied because now the thing

◼   ► that you've been working so hard on

◼   ► building the thing that hopefully had

◼   ► some kind of unique business you know

◼   ► business run around it and was useful to

◼   ► customers suddenly everyone gets for

◼   ► free and large in some ways it's like

◼   ► being the inevitable first thought is

◼   ► well I'm out of business now which isn't

◼   ► always the case but is something I think

◼   ► that we thought we wanted to unpack and

◼   ► this is top of mind for me right now

◼   ► because I kind of have expectations of

◼   ► some of the things that I'm working on

◼   ► now that will inevitably be Sherlock

◼   ► which we'll talk about a little bit

◼   ► later and so it's something that I think

◼   ► it's always worth thinking about that

◼   ► while on the plus side it's awesome that

◼   ► you know when Apple creates capabilities

◼   ► and opportunities on their platform you

◼   ► know they had a new API

◼   ► you know when they added the motion

◼   ► coprocessor to the iPhone like that was

◼   ► awesome for me I made an app

◼   ► called me have a sub susceptor and built

◼   ► this whole sort of line of business for

◼   ► myself because of that like they created

◼   ► that opportunity now if Apple went the

◼   ► you know the next step and created their

◼   ► own stuff tracker then suddenly it

◼   ► becomes you know problematic and

◼   ► something that I wouldn't be as excited

◼   ► about and that tension between these two

◼   ► things so we know what Apple chooses to

◼   ► support in terms of like creating an API

◼   ► to encourage the development in an area

◼   ► and the areas where apple says you know

◼   ► what this is so fundamental to the

◼   ► applicant you know to the use of this

◼   ► device or the use of this operating

◼   ► system that we're gonna build this in

◼   ► you know it's like if Apple didn't have

◼   ► a camera app on the iPhone that would

◼   ► feel really weird

◼   ► even if third parties could make awesome

◼   ► camera apps like it's such a fundamental

◼   ► part of it and so you know Apple is in

◼   ► this process of gradually expanding out

◼   ► what is considered sort of default or

◼   ► what comes with it and I think we both

◼   ► you and I Marco have some experience

◼   ► with this and I think we will start off

◼   ► the for this episode is talk a little

◼   ► bit about some of our past examples so I

◼   ► was wondering if you could start us off

◼   ► by telling the story of Instapaper and

◼   ► reading lists sure yeah so this was my

◼   ► first Sherlock as a developer basically

◼   ► I made Instapaper which was a save web

◼   ► pages for reading later service back in

◼   ► something like 2008 it was really a long

◼   ► time ago might even the fall of was 7 it

◼   ► was a very long time ago I don't even

◼   ► remember right now but ever ad in that

◼   ► ballpark and yeah an insta paper was you

◼   ► know there's this this fairly successful

◼   ► app that is actually still around I

◼   ► don't I don't use it anymore but it's

◼   ► still around and basically the the idea

◼   ► of it is you know you save web pages

◼   ► sorry later and you then go into you

◼   ► know you're on a page you save it you go

◼   ► into the in paper app and you can get a

◼   ► list of everything you save and and that

◼   ► list syncs between different devices on

◼   ► the website you can save things from

◼   ► your Mac to read on your phone or our

◼   ► iPad so there's like cross-device saving

◼   ► and syncing and everything's safe for

◼   ► offline use and everything saved in this

◼   ► nice like text only customisable nice

◼   ► reading view and different parts that

◼   ► had been done before but the combin

◼   ► of those things was never done before

◼   ► and so I kind of felt like I like owned

◼   ► that concept which is kind of a naive

◼   ► place to be honestly but that's what I

◼   ► felt at the time and and then over the

◼   ► next coming couple years a couple of

◼   ► competitors did the same thing and then

◼   ► eventually Apple in say I guess I had to

◼   ► look it up in in 2011 Apple announced

◼   ► that Mac OS lion would include this

◼   ► feature in Safari called reading list

◼   ► and at first it was really simple it was

◼   ► like you get to save a bookmark to read

◼   ► later and it shows up in this list and

◼   ► it was basically like a faster version

◼   ► of bookmarks there were none of the

◼   ► other features there was no cross-device

◼   ► sync there was no textview there was no

◼   ► like you know mobile version there was

◼   ► nothing in iOS about it so at first I

◼   ► was like oh well this isn't this I even

◼   ► wear these blog posts like this isn't a

◼   ► competitor to instigate because it

◼   ► doesn't have all these things I'm not

◼   ► sure locked yet haha and then over the

◼   ► next couple of years like 2012 2008 they

◼   ► slowly added pretty much all of the

◼   ► other features they they added it to iOS

◼   ► they added sync they added offline

◼   ► downloading of the pages that you save

◼   ► they added their text view which is kind

◼   ► of a separate thing and so like anyway

◼   ► they basically slowly added all of

◼   ► instigators core features and we're

◼   ► they've kind of left it alone for the

◼   ► last couple years because I think it's

◼   ► basically a complete feature at this

◼   ► point what instapaper was it is the

◼   ► essence of that service and it's missing

◼   ► tons and tons of features that

◼   ► Instapaper has but it doesn't matter

◼   ► what matters is that it's built in and

◼   ► it's convenient and it's free and

◼   ► everyone has it by default and I kept

◼   ► talking like over those over the years

◼   ► as reading lists came out and then

◼   ► slowly got better and slowly moved more

◼   ► into a direct competitor of Instapaper

◼   ► I kept telling myself like yeah this is

◼   ► fine it's not really gonna compete with

◼   ► me it's not gonna affect my sales it

◼   ► might even help my sales people are

◼   ► gonna find it and then realize they want

◼   ► something better and come find mine and

◼   ► as far as I can tell I don't I don't

◼   ► know if any of those things were true

◼   ► in retrospect I mean I I wasn't as good

◼   ► of a business person back then not that

◼   ► I'm great now but I'm less bad now and

◼   ► so it's hard to tell whether various

◼   ► business failures or

◼   ► were because of other things like my

◼   ► pricing decisions at the time or

◼   ► marketing decisions or whatever else or

◼   ► whether it was because of an because of

◼   ► reading lists and and any other

◼   ► competition that was out there but the

◼   ► main one I think was reading list

◼   ► because it was built in and for a while

◼   ► like before extensions reading lists had

◼   ► way more of a privileged position than I

◼   ► did because there were buttons all over

◼   ► the OS for adding linkster to reading

◼   ► list and you couldn't do that before

◼   ► extensions you couldn't have your app

◼   ► but up here in those kind of buttons so

◼   ► and there's actually still a couple

◼   ► places I think like a nail where there's

◼   ► still no system share sheet but there's

◼   ► a couple of menus that that have like

◼   ► open copy and add to reading list so

◼   ► there's still a few few places like that

◼   ► but anyway so all that time I kept

◼   ► thinking like oh I'll be fine I'll still

◼   ► be the deluxe option and then oh well

◼   ► they're not going to copy all my

◼   ► features and basically they're really

◼   ► good at copying the features that matter

◼   ► and even if they don't copy them all

◼   ► they copy a lot that matter and they

◼   ► they often are good enough I do think

◼   ► there is a danger in sure locking that

◼   ► we often want to minimize in our heads

◼   ► or deny or try to turn around into a

◼   ► positive thing but the reality is when

◼   ► when the platform vendor that you're on

◼   ► neutralizes the main features that you

◼   ► have has an advantage by adding them

◼   ► themselves it's a pretty big deal it it

◼   ► probably does really affect your

◼   ► business there might be cases where

◼   ► that's not true but it's certainly not

◼   ► going to be a great thing now how much

◼   ► of a bad thing it'll be is probably very

◼   ► dependent on the situation and on you

◼   ► and your products in your customer base

◼   ► and in most cases I don't think it's

◼   ► going to be incredibly fatal I think

◼   ► it's very rare where it's really fatal

◼   ► but because you know you can look at the

◼   ► other side of this is you can look at

◼   ► the apps that are that come by default

◼   ► on Macs and iOS devices

◼   ► how many note-taking apps are there

◼   ► there's been a Notes app on the iPhone

◼   ► since day one of the iPhone before there

◼   ► were apps there was notes and there was

◼   ► weather and there were stocks and all

◼   ► these things and now there are

◼   ► third-party replacements for all those

◼   ► categories there's tons of them and some

◼   ► of them do really well so I don't think

◼   ► sure locking are having the platform

◼   ► vendor

◼   ► the same feature that you do either

◼   ► before or after you get there I don't

◼   ► think it's fatal to your business but it

◼   ► is a large effect on your business like

◼   ► there's no denying that when Apple made

◼   ► their Notes app better a couple years

◼   ► ago and they moved it to cloudkit and

◼   ► they made it sink and add all of the

◼   ► rich text stuff to it like there's no

◼   ► denying that hurt a lot of other notes

◼   ► apps pretty badly it there they can

◼   ► still exist but it's harder for them to

◼   ► exist so like this is a a force that

◼   ► moves throughout markets that you need

◼   ► to be aware of and it is it is almost

◼   ► certainly nothing it's almost certainly

◼   ► never good for you like my whole idea

◼   ► people will find this and one upgrade to

◼   ► a better one pretty sure that's bogus

◼   ► in retrospect like it's never good for

◼   ► you the only question is how bad is it

◼   ► for you and it might not be too horrible

◼   ► but that also might change in the future

◼   ► so it's definitely something to keep a

◼   ► very close eye on yeah and I think

◼   ► there's a very what you're saying there

◼   ► I think is like the the key I think

◼   ► reality that I've come to grips with is

◼   ► debate is that something like being sure

◼   ► locked is it puts in a tremendous weight

◼   ► on the like customer demand for your

◼   ► product like it pushes it down quote you

◼   ► know substantially it also in some way

◼   ► probably creates customer interest in

◼   ► your product or in your product category

◼   ► but the relative sizes of those two

◼   ► forces are very disproportionate I think

◼   ► there's a much stronger push down then

◼   ► there is a push up and so you'll get a

◼   ► few people who are like like you were

◼   ► saying the hopeful kind of like yeah you

◼   ► know it's just like the built in one but

◼   ► better I'm looking for the better thing

◼   ► and it's a great story we tell ourselves

◼   ► oh but I think it's not just a story

◼   ► because I think it's it is true and that

◼   ► does happen but it is like for every one

◼   ► of those people there's ten people who

◼   ► now will never even consider looking for

◼   ► something else and so it's a tremendous

◼   ► offset down and it's you know I saw my

◼   ► example was perhaps slightly less

◼   ► dramatic but like I the most significant

◼   ► story locking I've ever had was for an

◼   ► app that I wrote called emoji plus plus

◼   ► which math coin custom keyboards were

◼   ► first introduced

◼   ► the emoji picker at the time was this

◼   ► kind of awful keyboard thing through was

◼   ► just a one big massive list of all the

◼   ► emojis you could ever find anything

◼   ► organized in this very haphazard way and

◼   ► so I decided you know what I think I

◼   ► have a better way of organizing emoji

◼   ► I'm gonna make it so that you can

◼   ► they're gonna be organized by category

◼   ► and you can quickly jump from category

◼   ► to category by moving a slider on the

◼   ► edge you know drag dragging if your

◼   ► finger up and down that and it had a few

◼   ► other kind of bonus features like you

◼   ► could add favorites and that type of

◼   ► features but the most part it was just

◼   ► this very quick easy to understand

◼   ► organized version of add emoji keyboard

◼   ► I released it it went well had a nice

◼   ► big launched and did fairly well in the

◼   ► next version of iOS there was how do you

◼   ► think was not even the next major

◼   ► version I think it was in a point

◼   ► release it was qualms he had like there

◼   ► was very quickly a new emoji keyboard in

◼   ► iOS that was roughly the same as emoji

◼   ► plus plus but turned 90 degrees and I

◼   ► have no way of saying I have no way of

◼   ► knowing if that was based on emoji plus

◼   ► plus if that was something that had been

◼   ► in works for months you know I'd have no

◼   ► visibility into that but the reality was

◼   ► now the thing that made my app unique

◼   ► and special and interesting was

◼   ► completely gone because that app was

◼   ► better than mine because and they

◼   ► believe it's still the case third-party

◼   ► keyboards are kind of you know like

◼   ► don't quite work right they take longer

◼   ► to switch to every now and then you'll

◼   ► switch to one and it doesn't work like

◼   ► there's all kinds of issues and things

◼   ► that whereas the built-in one works

◼   ► perfectly and so you know emoji plus

◼   ► plus isn't really a thing anymore

◼   ► I don't even think I still have it in

◼   ► the App Store because you know as new

◼   ► motors have been added you know I would

◼   ► nor defer to still be relevant I need to

◼   ► keep adding all these emojis but for the

◼   ► like one person who's downloading it a

◼   ► week it just doesn't make sense and so

◼   ► in that case like it just killed the app

◼   ► and in some ways I don't feel bad about

◼   ► that like I would obviously I wish the

◼   ► that line of business was still going

◼   ► and thriving it but I will say it one

◼   ► slightly upside of being you know

◼   ► Sherlock tore about being copied by

◼   ► Apple is that it is a you know

◼   ► nice kind of validation of your work to

◼   ► you know it's like to be copied by such

◼   ► a big you know a significant

◼   ► organization that in general I quite

◼   ► respect their products like it's kind of

◼   ► cool that maybe something I made was

◼   ► then copied and put into iOS but you

◼   ► know nevertheless like it just

◼   ► completely killed that product in that

◼   ► line of business and I think that is

◼   ► just the reality more more than more

◼   ► over than not that if you know if Apple

◼   ► is gonna come in and say you know this

◼   ► is something that we want to do they

◼   ► certainly have the resources they have

◼   ► the ability to do that and a copy and

◼   ► replace and then more often than not

◼   ► it's unlike you know is it will lead to

◼   ► a like an epic shift in terms of you

◼   ► know there was the period before and

◼   ► then there's the period after and now

◼   ► the after period is almost certainly

◼   ► going to be harder it's gonna be slower

◼   ► and it's gonna be you know it's a tough

◼   ► as an uphill battle because now all of a

◼   ► sudden your customers are an ardent or

◼   ► in general not going to be going to the

◼   ► App Store to look for an app to do this

◼   ► if somehow it just if immediately it

◼   ► does exactly what they need they'll just

◼   ► stick there because there is nothing few

◼   ► things more powerful in software than

◼   ► defaults I think in it's like the more

◼   ► you in which is useful like axiom for

◼   ► software development in general that

◼   ► like what however you we ship our apps

◼   ► to our customers whatever the default

◼   ► settings are or whatever the default

◼   ► mode is the vast majority of people will

◼   ► never shift from that and so we need to

◼   ► as developers I think be thoughtful of

◼   ► that and make sure our defaults are you

◼   ► know the will be the best thing for the

◼   ► most people but on the flip side

◼   ► whatever Apple shifts ships as default

◼   ► in their OS is gonna have a tremendously

◼   ► powering effect and the vast majority of

◼   ► people are just gonna stay there and

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◼   ► thank you so much to Linode for

◼   ► supporting this show so with all that

◼   ► doom and gloom

◼   ► in the back of my mind I recently have

◼   ► been thinking a lot about what is going

◼   ► to be happening to my Apple watch sleep

◼   ► tracker sleepless Plus which at this

◼   ► point exists in a market that without a

◼   ► Apple option which seems entirely

◼   ► unstable going forward because it is

◼   ► seems inevitable that Apple is going to

◼   ► get into these sleep tracking business

◼   ► on the Apple watch and if anything I'm

◼   ► kind of surprised that sleepless plus

◼   ► has been able to go as long as it has

◼   ► without a first party option and it's

◼   ► something that I've been wrestling with

◼   ► recently about how this app it will I

◼   ► think it's fair to say inevitably be

◼   ► Sherlock that it isn't one of these

◼   ► things where I will be surprised when

◼   ► one day a version of watch OS comes out

◼   ► it includes native sleep tracking like

◼   ► if if that day doesn't come like

◼   ► something has gone really wrong at Apple

◼   ► from development perspective because

◼   ► this is a clear obvious competitive

◼   ► disadvantage that they currently have

◼   ► compared to other fitness trackers you

◼   ► know things like Fitbit or jawbone which

◼   ► have sleep tracking built-in and while I

◼   ► love that I'm filling the gap right now

◼   ► you know with my app it seems kind of

◼   ► inevitable that they're going to that

◼   ► one day come in and do this and that's

◼   ► tricky because I want to keep making

◼   ► this app better I want to keep investing

◼   ► into it in terms of you know with time

◼   ► and energy but at the same time I don't

◼   ► want to go too far down the road if one

◼   ► day the entire purpose of the app is

◼   ► going to disappear and so recently when

◼   ► I've been kind of coming to grips with

◼   ► hasn't been working on updates for sleep

◼   ► plus plaus is this this thought of it's

◼   ► probably wise for developers to think

◼   ► through what sure locking of your app

◼   ► would look like what it would mean

◼   ► and then moreover are there any

◼   ► opportunities that being sure locked

◼   ► would present to you and sometimes that

◼   ► there won't be and sometimes it'll just

◼   ► be sadness and death but sometimes there

◼   ► might be an opportunity you know so like

◼   ► in the case of this of my apps the plus

◼   ► plus I'm thinking about it from a

◼   ► perspective of are there you know when

◼   ► Apple inevitably creates their sleep

◼   ► tracker almost certainly it's going to

◼   ► be better than mine and I like something

◼   ► has gone wrong again because what

◼   ► there's so many serve hacks and things I

◼   ► have to do on the watch to do what I do

◼   ► because you know continuously monitoring

◼   ► someone's activity level throughout that

◼   ► evening throughout the night you know is

◼   ► not something that the add the watch is

◼   ► really geared towards doing I mean has

◼   ► some good API is for it and you know I

◼   ► can make it work but I imagine Apple if

◼   ► they built it into at the OS level could

◼   ► do a much better job of categorizing

◼   ► user's activity this would be running

◼   ► all the time and could automatically cut

◼   ► and you go to sleep and when you wake up

◼   ► there's some really cool things that

◼   ► they can do there but I just can't do

◼   ► and so for me I'm starting to look

◼   ► forward to this as a one day this will

◼   ► come

◼   ► I want to make advanced of the time I

◼   ► have now you know in terms of in a weird

◼   ► way it's like I want to gobble up all

◼   ► the possible revenue I can but

◼   ► Apple watch sleep tracking now because

◼   ► that'll inevitably kind of diminish

◼   ► dramatically and then - I'm looking

◼   ► forward to it in the sense of none

◼   ► essence I'm looking forward to it

◼   ► happening but I'm trying to develop with

◼   ► it in mind and so a lot of the features

◼   ► I'm working on now are if Apple creates

◼   ► a new a their own version that generates

◼   ► awesome data and puts that into

◼   ► healthkit what can I do with that like

◼   ► can I work on the maybe the

◼   ► interpretation and the analysis side of

◼   ► sleep tracking more than the data

◼   ► collection side and still have value to

◼   ► customers who may want to say wow my app

◼   ► my window my watch collects all this

◼   ► data but how can I interpret it and turn

◼   ► it more maybe into the way that I do

◼   ► with things like pedometer plus plus

◼   ► where it's like the phone collects this

◼   ► the step data but my app is all about

◼   ► interpreting it and making it meaningful

◼   ► and so I think this is an important

◼   ► thing for news to think of to think of

◼   ► where you know what what would being

◼   ► Sherlock two mean to me and just take an

◼   ► approach of if you view it as inevitable

◼   ► if you think that this will one day

◼   ► happen and at least keep it in back of

◼   ► your mind

◼   ► I think you can be ready for it and

◼   ► it'll still be bad it'll still probably

◼   ► not be a good thing for your business

◼   ► but at least it may not be utterly

◼   ► catastrophic yeah and you know I think

◼   ► one area that you can kind of be safer

◼   ► in is by trying to figure out what types

◼   ► of needs and needs you can solve

◼   ► features you can implement design

◼   ► choices you can make that Apple wouldn't

◼   ► do or that your platform vendor wouldn't

◼   ► do you know and and so I overcast all

◼   ► these like all these like nitpicky

◼   ► detail settings and all the advanced

◼   ► audio processing and all and just to

◼   ► hold a very uh napple like design of

◼   ► just like a different style I have a

◼   ► more human style all my microcopy is

◼   ► very human and Apple either can't or

◼   ► won't do any of those things because

◼   ► like it isn't their style or they would

◼   ► have to please too many people or they

◼   ► have to serve too many markets or

◼   ► whatever else so like the Apple version

◼   ► of your app will will we know how Apple

◼   ► does things we know they kind of do like

◼   ► the middle 80% of every problem and so

◼   ► if you can better serve the edges you

◼   ► can you can still have a business even

◼   ► with them

◼   ► locking and you know and so like what

◼   ► I've seen like you know overcast is is

◼   ► you know my current project obviously

◼   ► and overcast I I started writing it

◼   ► after the Apple podcast app on iOS

◼   ► existed so like I knew I was getting

◼   ► sure locked from day one of even

◼   ► beginning to work on the app and I still

◼   ► decided to do it and part of my strategy

◼   ► there were just like I will do some

◼   ► things that they won't and and some

◼   ► people will want those things and I knew

◼   ► going in that this was gonna be an

◼   ► uphill battle I knew that was going to

◼   ► be by far and away my biggest competitor

◼   ► and it was and is and probably will be

◼   ► for the foreseeable future because of

◼   ► what you said right before the break

◼   ► like it's already installed on

◼   ► everyone's phone it's already there like

◼   ► you have to well there's like a box now

◼   ► that prompts you but anyway it's

◼   ► basically already there if you search

◼   ► for podcast on the App Store a lot of

◼   ► times Apple will just show their giant

◼   ► podcast card or they'll show an ad for

◼   ► the road app yeah like I'm at a huge

◼   ► disadvantage there but I'm still able to

◼   ► business because I work on the edges I

◼   ► work where Apple won't or areas they

◼   ► don't serve very well also when Apple

◼   ► does something like that like with the

◼   ► put you know the podcasts app or their

◼   ► Notes app or their weather app whatever

◼   ► else like how many features has the

◼   ► weather app gotten since its release in

◼   ► 2007 not not a lot like when when they

◼   ► when they release an app when they do

◼   ► their version of something it tends to

◼   ► be basically a one-shot deal like they

◼   ► show their hand and then that's about it

◼   ► for a long time possibly forever so once

◼   ► you do get sure locked or if you come

◼   ► pre Sherlock like I did with overcast

◼   ► yeah then you can kind of already know

◼   ► like you know the fear before you are

◼   ► sure locked it's like what's he gonna be

◼   ► is it gonna totally crush me and a lot

◼   ► of times their version of something

◼   ► isn't that great or isn't very deluxe or

◼   ► isn't you know isn't very good like I

◼   ► mentioned earlier reading lists reading

◼   ► list is really basic and it lacks some

◼   ► pretty big things like its text mode is

◼   ► terrible you don't have customizable

◼   ► like fonts too much degree you don't you

◼   ► it's there's not really even like a good

◼   ► dark mode like reading a bed is very

◼   ► bright like it's it just isn't very good

◼   ► it's it's not it is

◼   ► a great solution to this problem so like

◼   ► you know sitting it with podcasts Apple

◼   ► has been making a podcast app since the

◼   ► beginning of podcast apps and it's

◼   ► always been like ok but kind of

◼   ► confusing kind of burdened by the

◼   ► baggage of the iTunes Music Store and

◼   ► their podcast interface and like okay

◼   ► it's just like it was a known quantity I

◼   ► knew what I was going up against and

◼   ► that helped me formulate a plan for how

◼   ► I was gonna do that effectively like how

◼   ► will I do things that Apple won't do and

◼   ► that they've already shown that they

◼   ► either aren't capable or aren't willing

◼   ► to do yeah because I think that is the

◼   ► key point for us to be working it's like

◼   ► moving forward as developers is the if

◼   ► we develop our apps with this in mind

◼   ► and if we whether or not it will

◼   ► actually end up happening if we could

◼   ► assume that it's going to be inevitable

◼   ► but we see we try and predict either

◼   ► what they would do or we look at what

◼   ► they have done and see what is an

◼   ► opportunity besides that and that's just

◼   ► the reality like that is where we are

◼   ► going to be able to make the best runs

◼   ► at you know creating a business or

◼   ► making an interesting products to

◼   ► customers is you know we are undone it's

◼   ► unlikely that we are going to be able to

◼   ► uh napple over a search out Apple Apple

◼   ► like we don't have the resources or the

◼   ► skills or the brand recognition or being

◼   ► installed by default like that's just

◼   ► not going to happen but what we can do

◼   ► is look at it and say this is what

◼   ► they're going to do or this is what they

◼   ► have done in the case of like the

◼   ► podcasts app and you just say like well

◼   ► what can I do differently and just put

◼   ► our time and energy and effort into that

◼   ► being different part that is I think

◼   ► where we're going to have them the best

◼   ► traction and the highest probability of

◼   ► success and at a certain point you get

◼   ► less scared as a result as you know

◼   ► because the things that they're you know

◼   ► if Apple comes in and does something

◼   ► like you say they're going to do it in a

◼   ► very particular way and it's important

◼   ► just as I think in general it's an

◼   ► important thing for us to be sort of

◼   ► students and people who kind of

◼   ► understand and look at the app store in

◼   ► the way it works and make sure we

◼   ► understand you know how the top charts

◼   ► work how keyword searching works like

◼   ► wouldn't be a student of that it's also

◼   ► important to be a student of how Apple

◼   ► makes their software so that we can make

◼   ► sure we're building ours such that there

◼   ► the overlap if it exists will won't be

◼   ► and the degree to which we can exploit

◼   ► ever we make only slightly overlap we're

◼   ► almost certainly like we're increasing

◼   ► the upward force and decreasing the

◼   ► downward force in our app and you know

◼   ► fair enough maybe there will always be a

◼   ► stronger downward force and there will

◼   ► be an upward force created by Sherlock

◼   ► Inge but at the very least we can shift

◼   ► the balance between those two ever so

◼   ► slightly in our favor just by being a

◼   ► bit more thoughtful and honestly I know

◼   ► a lot people don't to hear this it is

◼   ► really really useful when someone

◼   ► searching the App Store for something

◼   ► that they get on their phone for free if

◼   ► your app is free upfront whether you

◼   ► have an in-app purchase or however you

◼   ► make money afterwards being free upfront

◼   ► is will do you a lot of favors if you

◼   ► have been sure locked sure yeah because

◼   ► then you're free against free and it

◼   ► isn't free against page so exactly like

◼   ► that was a huge problem I have with

◼   ► Instapaper that for my entire ownership

◼   ► of it it was paid up front and on day

◼   ► one that was fine but you know three or

◼   ► four years in that became very much not

◼   ► fine and yeah anything you can do to

◼   ► reduce the friction if you can

◼   ► especially you know if you're doing

◼   ► system stuff if you can import data from

◼   ► the system in any way and then export it

◼   ► back outs to anything that makes it

◼   ► easier for people to try your app this

◼   ► is good business anyway that for any app

◼   ► but it's particularly effective and

◼   ► necessary if you have been Sherlock buy

◼   ► stuff built into the OS it is incredibly

◼   ► beneficial to you to make it very easy

◼   ► and free for people to try your app so

◼   ► they can see the difference that helps a

◼   ► lot all right and with that we are out

◼   ► of time this week so thank you very much

◼   ► for listening everybody and we'll talk

◼   ► to you next week bye