Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so today we

◼   ► wanted to talk again about the App Store

◼   ► and about how at the App Store is

◼   ► changing over time and especially around

◼   ► this time when iOS 10 is coming out and

◼   ► things are changing and especially this

◼   ► year where it seems like for the first

◼   ► time we're having all this change and I

◼   ► don't like tumult in the App Store where

◼   ► we're getting subscription of my model

◼   ► of changing their search ads coming

◼   ► they're purging old ad apps from the App

◼   ► Store they're changing app review review

◼   ► timing all kinds of things are changing

◼   ► in the App Store and all that change

◼   ► recently made me take a look back and do

◼   ► what I like I love doing most which is

◼   ► making a chart of course any time I kind

◼   ► of feel nostalgic or curious

◼   ► I'll try and make it to make a chart out

◼   ► of that and so what happened I did and

◼   ► this is a lot of we're gonna start

◼   ► talking about it's an article I wrote

◼   ► called evolving apps for business models

◼   ► which I'll have the link to in the show

◼   ► notes a lot of these things I feel are

◼   ► so easy to get stuck on like the way you

◼   ► feel now and these slow gradual changes

◼   ► are hard to really pin down for like

◼   ► what's actually been happening in the

◼   ► App Store because you know it's been

◼   ► quite a while since I've been it I

◼   ► submitted my first app I think my first

◼   ► app I submitted almost eight years ago

◼   ► and a lots changed since then

◼   ► and the interesting thing that I found

◼   ► is when I went back to my all like my

◼   ► app store sales data as far back as I

◼   ► had kept it and honestly I really wish I

◼   ► had my data all the way back to eight

◼   ► years ago but I just don't like I

◼   ► consolidated into a new like reporting

◼   ► system only like three or four years ago

◼   ► and certainly have dated back to then

◼   ► but then nevertheless you should release

◼   ► that oh it's awful it is it is one of

◼   ► those classic projects which I'm sure

◼   ► any developer can appreciate where it is

◼   ► it is designed to work for nobody but me

◼   ► like it like I do weird things it's a it

◼   ► makes no sense to anybody but me but for

◼   ► me it's perfect and like I have to run

◼   ► like these six scripts to get all the

◼   ► data in and the way I like it but it

◼   ► works for me so I would not recommend

◼   ► if you'd looking if you're looking for a

◼   ► sales and reporting system I'm sure

◼   ► there are many great hosted providers to

◼   ► do what you want to do don't roll your

◼   ► own I can tell you it's terrible but if

◼   ► you have this data you can go back and

◼   ► look at it

◼   ► the most striking chart and I think the

◼   ► thing that is most strongly drawn

◼   ► attention to this article was I did a

◼   ► chart of the percent of my revenue from

◼   ► three different sources from an I

◼   ► purchase from paid sales and from

◼   ► advertising and the truly remarkable

◼   ► thing from that graph is the way that

◼   ► advertising has just been steadily

◼   ► clawing away at paid sales over the last

◼   ► four years to such a in such a linear

◼   ► and clear way that when I first saw it I

◼   ► was like wow like my date is broken like

◼   ► there's no way there's this linear of a

◼   ► progression like I'm doing something

◼   ► wrong in my analysis but turns out check

◼   ► the data this is what it is like I went

◼   ► from a period in the beginning of 2012

◼   ► where only about 10% of my revenue

◼   ► kimkim advertising and now it's getting

◼   ► close to about 80% now my revenue comes

◼   ► from advertising and interestingly over

◼   ► that period in our purchased in revenue

◼   ► has remained almost they almost constant

◼   ► like not quite it's certainly gone up

◼   ► and down but roughly it's been hovering

◼   ► around 15 to 20 percent of my revenue

◼   ► and that's kind of fascinating to me

◼   ► because it shows how in sort of stark

◼   ► numbers how the App Store has been

◼   ► changing in a way that I kind of feel

◼   ► that this has been changing you know

◼   ► it's kind of the old thing we've talked

◼   ► about for so long about the race to the

◼   ► bottom about lack of trials or the death

◼   ► of a paid model or repeat the devaluing

◼   ► of software like all these things that

◼   ► you could kind of the things that we

◼   ► talked about a software developers I

◼   ► always find it reassuring where rather

◼   ► than just kind of like wishy-washy

◼   ► talking about things to actually look at

◼   ► the numbers and say like is that

◼   ► actually true and yeah like as somebody

◼   ► who has been doing this full-time who's

◼   ► been doing it with a lot of apps who's

◼   ► been doing it probably more more

◼   ► importantly who's tried about every

◼   ► business model you can think of the ones

◼   ► that have worked over time has changed

◼   ► and the business model now that seems

◼   ► most reliable for me is advertising and

◼   ► paid sales are now

◼   ► vanishingly small percentage of my SAP

◼   ► and even more crazies when I look at the

◼   ► chart you can see part of what makes a

◼   ► paid sales so terrible because there's

◼   ► these massive spikes where I launched a

◼   ► new out big spike in paid sales and then

◼   ► it just falls off again and that more

◼   ► than anything else the thing that I you

◼   ► know really don't like about paid sales

◼   ► and how just volatile that is when

◼   ► you're trying to make a living from it

◼   ► yeah I mean we've all I mean anybody

◼   ► who's ever had a paid app in the store

◼   ► has seen this exact same pattern before

◼   ► of like you know if you're lucky you

◼   ► have the launch where you have a decent

◼   ► spike and then no matter what no matter

◼   ► how lucky you were at launch it just

◼   ► drops off after a few days probably at

◼   ► most and starts to level off into you

◼   ► know basically a slowly declining

◼   ► plateau after the Hat of sadness and and

◼   ► uncertainty and what I found is that

◼   ► every time you know if I have a paid app

◼   ► suppose suppose I do like a 2.0 or 3.0

◼   ► like a major update even if they get a

◼   ► lot of press I might get spikes on that

◼   ► day but it's never as high as the

◼   ► initial launch spike and you know and

◼   ► like every every spike you have

◼   ► subsequent to an app's launch is usually

◼   ► smaller than the one before it

◼   ► to the point where now like even makes

◼   ► your holidays don't really impact me at

◼   ► all like used to be like Christmas used

◼   ► to be a major sales day and and now like

◼   ► paid apps don't even do that well it's

◼   ► it's it's kind of sad really but I guess

◼   ► it does you know as you're saying here

◼   ► it really does reflect the the reality

◼   ► of what people are doing a regardless of

◼   ► how we think things should be or how we

◼   ► wish things would be this shows you know

◼   ► what people are actually doing how

◼   ► people are choosing to spend money or

◼   ► not spend money in the App Store I think

◼   ► is very clear here yeah and I think it

◼   ► speaks to you also how I look at this

◼   ► graph and I think to myself how I glad I

◼   ► am that I've been willing to experiment

◼   ► a lot because the thing that I I think

◼   ► is most dangerous in the App Store is

◼   ► not being flexible and not trying new

◼   ► things and try not moving around because

◼   ► they've definitely been times as I've

◼   ► gone through this we're like oh my god I

◼   ► really want to do that do I not want to

◼   ► do that dwell and it's interesting to

◼   ► see so clearly that if I had

◼   ► and if I'd been stuck on one model if

◼   ► I'd said like no this is how I'm gonna

◼   ► do sell my software you know it just

◼   ► wouldn't have worked like if my revenue

◼   ► was just my paid sales number for

◼   ► example like if that's what I'd stuck to

◼   ► and committed to you know I would be

◼   ► consulted at this point almost certainly

◼   ► I would or I'd be working you know a

◼   ► nine-to-five job somewhere like there

◼   ► just is there it would I would not be

◼   ► able to live on that near diminishing Li

◼   ► small part of the pie now and so by

◼   ► being a little bit flexible on that it's

◼   ► you know reassuring that like that was

◼   ► the right choice because at the end what

◼   ► I wanted was to be an independent to be

◼   ► able to make you know make that software

◼   ► I want to make and then make a living

◼   ► from it and to do that it's like this is

◼   ► this is what this is what that takes and

◼   ► this is what that looks like now I

◼   ► suppose yeah I mean you know if you look

◼   ► at your graph the one that's not like a

◼   ► hundred percent graph but the one that's

◼   ► just like a pure spiky graph it's it's

◼   ► interesting to note that like you

◼   ► basically are making a pretty similar

◼   ► salary steadily since about 2013 and if

◼   ► you subtract the advertising from that

◼   ► you see what I think most developers

◼   ► have seen since 2013 which is a slowly

◼   ► declining curve and and a lot of sadness

◼   ► as things decline and seemingly can't

◼   ► get back up so really which were you

◼   ► know I think which we're gonna talk a

◼   ► little more about it seems like

◼   ► advertising is kind of not maybe not

◼   ► saved you but certainly has been a

◼   ► massive part of your success over the

◼   ► last few years and it seems like that is

◼   ► the kind of the missing part that a lot

◼   ► of us Indies have not had over the last

◼   ► few years to keep it steady you know

◼   ► instead we only have those paid sale and

◼   ► maybe if we're lucky in our purchase

◼   ► sales like what you have but they have

◼   ► about the same shape that your graph has

◼   ► which is everything's getting harder and

◼   ► harder and harder and money's just

◼   ► getting lower and lower over time and

◼   ► the willingness to experiment is

◼   ► literally what's making your business

◼   ► now because you know you can experiment

◼   ► with different apps but if everyone

◼   ► experiments with different apps but only

◼   ► one or two payment models you're missing

◼   ► out and part of the experimentation like

◼   ► you know in this in your case

◼   ► experimenting with ads and various and I

◼   ► purchase schemes has really helped you

◼   ► a bit over anybody who just tried to

◼   ► sell an app for a few bucks and hope

◼   ► that it works because that can work but

◼   ► it's certainly a lot harder to make that

◼   ► work and I think over time it's working

◼   ► less yeah I think it speaks to also

◼   ► something that I've found that's like an

◼   ► unintended benefit of advertising for me

◼   ► is the reliability of the income that it

◼   ► gives and that's certainly not to say

◼   ► that it's always been this like it's not

◼   ► the same day-to-day and advertising is

◼   ► notorious for especially the first day

◼   ► of a new financial quarter and

◼   ► especially the first day of a new year

◼   ► falling off cliffs because everyone's ad

◼   ► budgets kind of a big a you know they

◼   ► spend them up and then you get to the

◼   ► end of the month day and if a quarter

◼   ► and they're like oh no we got all this

◼   ► money let's just spend it and your rates

◼   ► go up nicely and then the first you know

◼   ► like you get you hit that January

◼   ► February March and then all of a sudden

◼   ► like if they just falls off so it's not

◼   ► like it's completely reliable and once

◼   ► you've been through one of those crazy

◼   ► cliffs once or twice you kind of know

◼   ► what you're looking for looking at but I

◼   ► find fascinating is on a day to day

◼   ► basis these my sales income from paid

◼   ► things where I'm relying on somebody to

◼   ► open their wallet and hand me and me $2

◼   ► the variability I found between that is

◼   ► is it always been way higher than from

◼   ► advertising base and I think it's

◼   ► largely because advertising is

◼   ► functionally a measure it's like this

◼   ► rough measure of the engagement of users

◼   ► in my application you know how many

◼   ► times they're opening it how long

◼   ► they're opening it like it's that

◼   ► overall usage number and the that number

◼   ► is very stable to a certain point that

◼   ► you know you hope you had your app has a

◼   ► I guess it brings on more users than it

◼   ► loses as you go you know suit that you

◼   ► want you need those downloads at the

◼   ► beginning and then you have some kind of

◼   ► retention over time that you know some

◼   ► people will stop using your app and then

◼   ► they're replaced hopefully by new people

◼   ► and if that number is gradually working

◼   ► its way up in order for your income to

◼   ► go down like obviously the rates can

◼   ► drop which sometimes happens but usually

◼   ► they're fairly stable and so as a result

◼   ► your income just becomes fairly flat

◼   ► because it's only increasing or

◼   ► decreasing by the very slow adjustments

◼   ► from the amount of new users you get

◼   ► in the numbered users that you're losing

◼   ► and so if you have a big spike in new

◼   ► users it's like yay that won't actually

◼   ► make a big difference to your revenue

◼   ► that day though it's like it that read

◼   ► that ripped that spike gets averaged out

◼   ► over the next you know a few months as

◼   ► your daily active sessions or whatever

◼   ► the right measure would be slowly works

◼   ► its way up and you know say you make a

◼   ► change and people don't like it and they

◼   ► leave the app it's like that'll likely

◼   ► I'll be offset and the same thing like

◼   ► that that it's a gradual decline and

◼   ► that as a develop as an independent as

◼   ► somebody who makes you like who pays my

◼   ► mortgage with my app revenue that is so

◼   ► reassuring that if this feeling that I

◼   ► don't have to check my sales report

◼   ► every day and worry that you know it's

◼   ► like it is has this been a good weekend

◼   ► has this like for a while had apps that

◼   ► would do really well on Sundays and you

◼   ► know I'd have a sometimes I'd have a

◼   ► Sunday where it's something like my

◼   ► sales just wouldn't be what they were

◼   ► and it's like whoa like there goes 15%

◼   ► of my weekly revenue because it was a

◼   ► holiday or because there was an issue on

◼   ► the app store and payments weren't

◼   ► processing for a few hours which is

◼   ► something that's happened before and you

◼   ► look at those whoa this is really scary

◼   ► at least with advertising and that kind

◼   ► of a model and you'd say in some ways

◼   ► subscriptions have a similar kind of

◼   ► feel to them but it's lovely to have the

◼   ► sense of these slow and slow increases

◼   ► and slow decreases over time rather than

◼   ► these huge spikes that are up and down

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◼   ► supporting this show all right so we've

◼   ► been talking about ads and your

◼   ► transition to a diversified income

◼   ► stream that includes ads in your apps

◼   ► and this got me thinking a while back

◼   ► you know maybe I should try ads in

◼   ► overcast because the problem I was

◼   ► facing so I wrote this big blog post

◼   ► kind of explaining all this in more

◼   ► detail but overcast has had you know

◼   ► three business models now though the

◼   ► first year roughly it was you know I

◼   ► always wanted to be free upfront because

◼   ► I have a lot of reasons why I want this

◼   ► why basically market share is more

◼   ► important to me than total revenue for

◼   ► this app I really want max

◼   ► market share and I'll try to get enough

◼   ► revenue somehow once I have that so I

◼   ► have the very first year I have you know

◼   ► free upfront and you get some of the

◼   ► features but you don't really get the

◼   ► best features things like smart speed

◼   ► and voice boost and like full playlists

◼   ► and everything like it was pretty

◼   ► limited and it was really annoying with

◼   ► with like how much in the app it was

◼   ► limited it basically it was not a very

◼   ► good app in this limited state and yet

◼   ► the vast majority of my users were using

◼   ► it in that state because most people

◼   ► didn't buy the one-time $5 an app

◼   ► purchase to unlock the cool stuff so

◼   ► trying to combat that problem about a

◼   ► year ago I switched to every feature was

◼   ► free and you just pay me what you want

◼   ► basically I did a monthly subscription a

◼   ► dollar a month and you could buy it

◼   ► ahead as long as you wanted it was not

◼   ► renewing it was the you know the old

◼   ► kind of solution where it doesn't auto

◼   ► renew so you basically just you know buy

◼   ► it for five years if you wanted to give

◼   ► me a bunch of money or just buy it for

◼   ► three months if you wanted to try it out

◼   ► but you didn't get anything for that and

◼   ► I was kind of banking on people's

◼   ► goodwill and it did work just not enough

◼   ► it it did work enough to get me a little

◼   ► over like I think just about one and a

◼   ► half percent or so or two percent

◼   ► roughly of of users to actually pay and

◼   ► subscribe but that was not really enough

◼   ► to really bring in meaningful revenue

◼   ► over time so instead I switched about

◼   ► six months ago I added a couple of

◼   ► features that had been very highly

◼   ► requested the main main one of which was

◼   ► dark mode a whole dark theme of the app

◼   ► i out of that too the app a that six

◼   ► months ago and that I added it only for

◼   ► people who were paying the voluntary

◼   ► patronage and that was weird for a

◼   ► number of reasons I mean first of all

◼   ► now it's still called patronage but now

◼   ► you get perks and so that's a little bit

◼   ► odd a lot of people have ejected to the

◼   ► terminology there and I understand why

◼   ► and then a lot of people are mad because

◼   ► people who had bought the original

◼   ► five-dollar unlock everything purchased

◼   ► the year earlier were very mad that here

◼   ► was a new feature that they did not get

◼   ► they were extremely mad and I heard from

◼   ► them constantly even literally for the

◼   ► last six months like it never stopped I

◼   ► kept here

◼   ► from them and so I don't want to make my

◼   ► early customers so mad and then and then

◼   ► the final problem was even that while it

◼   ► did provide a nice bump to the number of

◼   ► people who were paying it didn't provide

◼   ► enough of a bump to make it really a

◼   ► sustainable good income so I could

◼   ► sustain the service on that just barely

◼   ► but but I really need more to to both do

◼   ► what I want to do with it and to justify

◼   ► pouring a lot a lot of my time into it

◼   ► rather than having to start exploring

◼   ► new projects so I decided ads were worth

◼   ► a try because as you said like ads make

◼   ► a lot of sense now you know there's a

◼   ► reason why so much that we that we

◼   ► consume and use in today's technology

◼   ► world is ad funded there's a big reason

◼   ► for that and that is that you know you

◼   ► basically anybody can use everything

◼   ► they want for free you just have to

◼   ► tolerate these ads and most people don't

◼   ► mind ads you know I don't know anybody

◼   ► who loves ads but most people don't mind

◼   ► like they know people will give will

◼   ► take that trade off if the trade off is

◼   ► I would rather not pay but I'll take ads

◼   ► or you can pay and then you won't see

◼   ► ads most people will choose the the add

◼   ► option there because they don't want to

◼   ► pay and that's fine it seemed to make a

◼   ► lot of sense the the the main risk to

◼   ► this was of course that here I had this

◼   ► app that is very well regarded by a lot

◼   ► of people very it's used by a lot of

◼   ► people many of whom were very strongly

◼   ► opinionated and it looks you know had a

◼   ► good design you know has it has a good

◼   ► design it looks nice and a lot of people

◼   ► were going to see me triads and I've had

◼   ► various opinions of ads over the years

◼   ► and again I I don't love them either but

◼   ► I consider them kind of the the

◼   ► acceptable trade-off for what we're

◼   ► doing here so I was very very scared to

◼   ► release this this was this was the most

◼   ► nervous I've ever been about really seen

◼   ► anything since I've done a 1.0 and I

◼   ► released it and overall the the reaction

◼   ► was better than I expected it was it's

◼   ► not great I wouldn't say it's a great

◼   ► reaction but I would say it's a lot less

◼   ► horrible than I was predicting and that

◼   ► I was prepared for my star rating is in

◼   ► the crapper

◼   ► this was the this is the first time

◼   ► overcast has ever had a star rating

◼   ► below four-and-a-half I believe now I'm

◼   ► at two and a half something like that

◼   ► so my ratings destroyed and that's gonna

◼   ► hurt me a lot I hope that's only

◼   ► temporary we will find out I'm getting a

◼   ► lot of angry emails and tweets and lots

◼   ► of them lots of people who are not very

◼   ► kind about about this change but on the

◼   ► other hand I've gotten a whole lot of

◼   ► people who are totally ok with it and

◼   ► like that there's no longer this weird

◼   ► difference between like special features

◼   ► that patrons get and you know and this

◼   ► weird terminology of patron eggs that

◼   ► even though it is also including special

◼   ► features so now I simplified things so

◼   ► now you have these ads and if you don't

◼   ► want to see ads and then down the road I

◼   ► might add a few little things here but

◼   ► if you don't want to see ads you can buy

◼   ► the annual subscription which is a new

◼   ► Auto renewing kind and it's just called

◼   ► overcast premium so no more like patron

◼   ► eggs wording like you know no more

◼   ► messing with ideas of you know goodwill

◼   ► or charity over in that area because

◼   ► that was as I said problematic for a lot

◼   ► of people now it's just called premium

◼   ► you pay ten bucks a year you get ads

◼   ► this is a simplification even from the

◼   ► previous subscriptions they were a

◼   ► dollar a month so it was twelve dollars

◼   ► a year if you paid annually this is even

◼   ► cheaper ten ten dollars a year because

◼   ► it's nice and simple you know and I even

◼   ► adjusted on all the different currencies

◼   ► around the world so that like a lot of

◼   ► the Euro based ones we're gonna be like

◼   ► ten fifty euro and I said now just you

◼   ► know $9.99 is fine or 10 even whatever

◼   ► it is so made it very simple much

◼   ► clearer wording and a much honestly

◼   ► simpler business model there's ads in

◼   ► the app if you want to get rid of them

◼   ► you pay me ten bucks a year the the

◼   ► amazing thing about this is that I get

◼   ► recurring revenue from anybody who's

◼   ► actually using the app so I'm getting it

◼   ► somewhere whether it's the ad or whether

◼   ► it's subscriptions I'm getting recurring

◼   ► revenue from usage and it's exactly what

◼   ► you said earlier David it's like you

◼   ► know I'm incentivized to keep people

◼   ► using the app and to make the app good

◼   ► enough the people keep coming back and

◼   ► using it I don't I know longer have an

◼   ► incentive of like what am I gonna do to

◼   ► push people over the over like the next

◼   ► big version or what kind of crazy

◼   ► features can I come up with that'll make

◼   ► pay and you know anger everybody else

◼   ► like I really have to make the app

◼   ► better now and as long as I do that I

◼   ► make money from everybody who uses it

◼   ► and it's not like a massive amount more

◼   ► money but it is more and and the ads you

◼   ► know it's a little early to say how well

◼   ► the ads are working because it's only

◼   ► been a few days since I've had them in

◼   ► but even in these few days I've gotten a

◼   ► ton of more of more subscriptions it's

◼   ► not you know I haven't like doubled or

◼   ► anything and but that might happen who

◼   ► knows I haven't doubled yet but I

◼   ► certainly have a lot more subscribe or

◼   ► subscribers these are also now all in

◼   ► the new apple autumn renewing system so

◼   ► that means a year from now if they still

◼   ► subscribe I will get 85 percent instead

◼   ► of 70 percent from them which is a big

◼   ► deal

◼   ► and the ads are kind of making up the

◼   ► difference of you know trying to give me

◼   ► some money for everyone who's not a

◼   ► subscriber and you know right now the

◼   ► amount of money the ads are making is

◼   ► fairly modest but you know it's still

◼   ► very early and I still could experiment

◼   ► with different placements of the ad

◼   ► different formats of ads things like

◼   ► that and I think it's ended up working

◼   ► out the I mean I'm going to have to

◼   ► figure out how the heck to make

◼   ► everybody happy enough to stop giving me

◼   ► 1 star reviews and sending me nasty

◼   ► emails because my star rating is as I

◼   ► mentioned down from four and a half to

◼   ► two and a half with a very large volume

◼   ► so I don't know about that but the rest

◼   ► of it seems to be working ok sure and

◼   ► the reality is - it's the awkward thing

◼   ► of so much of this is coming I think

◼   ► from the change in business model like

◼   ► if this was if the app that you just

◼   ► released were overcast 1.0 I doubt you

◼   ► would have that same negativity because

◼   ► that's just the nature of these things

◼   ► where people are like oh I had this

◼   ► thing it's like you were giving me this

◼   ► great app for free with nothing in with

◼   ► no impingement at all upon me now it's a

◼   ► free app that is impinging on me

◼   ► slightly by showing me you know ads at

◼   ► the tops of some of the lists and so

◼   ► that change it's like it feels like

◼   ► you've taken something from me which

◼   ► we've done really but you know that's

◼   ► the way it feels I imagine and so you

◼   ► know over time I suppose in some ways

◼   ► it's one of the nice things where well

◼   ► one day I would love for the App Store

◼   ► to do like a rolling average of reviews

◼   ► the next time you do an update your

◼   ► review

◼   ► we'll reset again and you can hopefully

◼   ► put a lot of these one stars behind you

◼   ► you know and just sort of go from there

◼   ► yeah I think that's really you know what

◼   ► I'm doing here I mean and a lot of

◼   ► people have asked why I why I didn't

◼   ► release this as part of a bigger 3.0

◼   ► update and I think the results speak for

◼   ► themselves if I have leased this as part

◼   ► of a whole bunch of other features and

◼   ► changes and a big push similar to

◼   ► Apple's headphone jack thing the story

◼   ► would have been all about the ads and

◼   ► the star ratings would have been all

◼   ► about the ads and the reviews would be

◼   ► all about the ads and I feel like that I

◼   ► I'm better off making this transition to

◼   ► ad based now while I'm still in the

◼   ► two-point X series and then when I do a

◼   ► big 3.0 release down the road hopefully

◼   ► not too far down the road but when I do

◼   ► it down the road this story will already

◼   ► include like people who write about

◼   ► overcast people who review or guys

◼   ► people who use overcast will all already

◼   ► know okay this happens I had driven so

◼   ► that that'll be old news you know just

◼   ► like the headphone jack thing and the

◼   ► iPhone this week you know we all knew

◼   ► about it months ago so now it's old news

◼   ► I'm real kind of accepting it and moving

◼   ► on and just evaluating the iPhone on its

◼   ► other merits that's how this is gonna be

◼   ► I think with overcast 3.0 that you know

◼   ► I'm going to be able to now do things

◼   ► freely and and make the app great on its

◼   ► own merits and the story won't won't be

◼   ► just about the ads when I finally launch

◼   ► it and perhaps even more over it seems

◼   ► like imagine no not to speak for you but

◼   ► there's a slightly better incentive for

◼   ► you to really put that work into 3.0

◼   ► because if it if it feels more

◼   ► sustainable and viable it's not like

◼   ► doesn't feel like you're just putting

◼   ► more time after something that kind of

◼   ► is slowly decaying over time that you're

◼   ► just kind of you put all this effort

◼   ► into a 3.0 all these new features all

◼   ► those big updates and then it's like and

◼   ► it's not actually gonna make any

◼   ► difference at the end of the day like

◼   ► you could just leave the app as it is

◼   ► now and hope for the best that is

◼   ► entirely correct I mean I I was really

◼   ► you know not not in a very good

◼   ► psychological place about the app before

◼   ► long stats because revenue was just flat

◼   ► and and flat at not a particularly great

◼   ► level and I didn't really know what else

◼   ► to do it felt hopeless and now I have

◼   ► this big influx of subscribers and I

◼   ► have this nice little kind of side money

◼   ► from the ads

◼   ► and that is amazing and that has a

◼   ► little fire under me now you're totally

◼   ► right it has totally turned around my

◼   ► motivation I'm not thinking of like Oh

◼   ► what other apps could I make to make

◼   ► more money no now I'm just thinking how

◼   ► do I make this even more amazing and I

◼   ► have had an amazingly productive few

◼   ► days since since launching me HAP's

◼   ► arson selection the ads rather of just

◼   ► making the app incredibly better like

◼   ► getting a lot of stuff done on 3.0

◼   ► working through like some navigation

◼   ► changes and making some like custom

◼   ► animations and you know cool stuff like

◼   ► that that that you that you can kind of

◼   ► only do if you're making money or if you

◼   ► if you think you're going to make money

◼   ► I don't have like investing into it not

◼   ► just like bullet point features but like

◼   ► polish and fun new things and rethinking

◼   ► some of the design aspects and and you

◼   ► know I'm making I made the watch app a

◼   ► lot better you know for 3.0 also and now

◼   ► I can think about adding it today widget

◼   ► and all this bogus that now just called

◼   ► widgets all this stuff that I can now do

◼   ► because there's money coming in and at a

◼   ► reasonable rate now that I can I can be

◼   ► relatively assured of its future and and

◼   ► that's something I couldn't say before

◼   ► and and that made me you know honestly

◼   ► quite sad pretty much all all summer as

◼   ► I watched the sales just kind of

◼   ► flattened but now things have turned

◼   ► around and I am kind of on fire now and

◼   ► I'm like plowed through and doing all

◼   ► sorts of great stuff and it feels great

◼   ► and I think in the long run you know

◼   ► even though right now it is quite

◼   ► painful to see my rating go goes so far

◼   ► down the tubes and to get all these

◼   ► angry messages from people but I think

◼   ► long term it will be better for my users

◼   ► overall yeah and I think the thing that

◼   ► I love so much about this change is like

◼   ► you answer with are what they are like

◼   ► you can sometimes I feel like we can

◼   ► moralize about them and get all like

◼   ► fancy about it but at the end of the day

◼   ► they're just a tool for businesses to

◼   ► make money and what I love though is

◼   ► that it lets you like with the things

◼   ► that you're talking about the thing that

◼   ► I love about that is it's allowing you

◼   ► to not have to make this big case of

◼   ► like I always hate the three-point owes

◼   ► that feel like it's like the kitchen

◼   ► it's like everything in the kitchen sink

◼   ► right it's just I have to have these I

◼   ► have I did all my good features in

◼   ► version 1 I can made up some other stuff

◼   ► for version 2 version 3 here's just

◼   ► everything else I could think of is just

◼   ► an assault by feature checklist it's

◼   ► like now you can just say you know I'm

◼   ► just gonna polish I'm just gonna keep

◼   ► polishing this and

◼   ► make it better and better and better

◼   ► because I'm not trying to upsell you on

◼   ► a paid upgrade I'm not trying to do

◼   ► something like that I just want to make

◼   ► the app as like the absolute best it can

◼   ► be

◼   ► and that sounds like an awesome place

◼   ► for you to be it really man it feels

◼   ► great I mean you've been here before I'm

◼   ► sure like it feels great and so I'm I'm

◼   ► just so happy to finally kind of be like

◼   ► be back in it again and and to feel good

◼   ► about its financial future again it's

◼   ► awesome all right well here's hoping it

◼   ► goes well and we're out of time this

◼   ► week thank you everybody for listening

◼   ► and we will talk to you next week bye