Under the Radar

Under the Radar 28: Wear Your Own T-Shirt


00:00:00   welcome to under the radar our show but

00:00:02   independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04   Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:06   the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08   minutes so let's get started so today

00:00:11   what I wanted to talk through is and the

00:00:14   broader concepts but something that

00:00:16   started from a sort of my initial

00:00:19   planning for getting ready to go in a 10

00:00:20   WWDC this year where one of the things

00:00:24   that I was thinking about is the

00:00:26   interactions that I tend to have at the

00:00:28   can at the actual convention at the you

00:00:32   know on the floor and something that has

00:00:33   happened several times is I'll you know

00:00:35   be walking around and I'll just randomly

00:00:37   bump into somebody and start to you know

00:00:38   chatting and it's like as we start

00:00:42   talking eventually we get to a point

00:00:43   that they're like oh wait you're the guy

00:00:46   who did pedometer plus plus like I love

00:00:48   that app or something like that where

00:00:49   you have this interaction where it's

00:00:51   like eventually they do sort of it did

00:00:53   this there's this discovery of a comment

00:00:56   and like a common ground it's almost an

00:00:57   accident

00:00:58   yeah it's and that accidental nature of

00:01:01   it is the problem is the problem that I

00:01:03   wanted to talk about today because what

00:01:05   I've been thinking about is like well

00:01:08   what most companies do when they're

00:01:10   encounter this kind of a thing it's like

00:01:11   if you walk around WTC you will see

00:01:14   people wearing like 1password shirts and

00:01:16   you know they work fragile bits or

00:01:18   you'll see you know companies with omni

00:01:21   shirts on or whatever and you'll know

00:01:23   they work for Omni and so if you like on

00:01:25   here and when we talk to someone who

00:01:26   works there like you know how to go how

00:01:28   to go about doing that but it feels

00:01:30   weird in some ways at least initially it

00:01:33   started feeling weird and I was like try

00:01:35   and like make shirts that say you know

00:01:37   it's like my apps and have like

00:01:39   phenomena or plus plus or sleep plus

00:01:40   plus or under the radar even or even

00:01:43   just my name like put on it and it it's

00:01:47   weird because it feels a bit like like

00:01:50   like self-promotion in that way feels a

00:01:54   bit odd and the more I've thought about

00:01:56   this I need to probably not think about

00:01:59   it in those ways but it seemed like an

00:02:00   interesting topic to talk about because

00:02:02   I struggle with this with this weird

00:02:04   tension of it's like if I were if I was

00:02:06   working for a bigger company and I was

00:02:08   going to a convention

00:02:10   that company said hey you know here's

00:02:12   you know five t-shirts that have a

00:02:14   various products on it would love it if

00:02:15   you could wear them during the thing and

00:02:16   you know see if that can you know start

00:02:18   a conversation help a conversation along

00:02:20   like I wouldn't feel weird about doing

00:02:23   that it would be like yeah totally you

00:02:24   know I'm a team player let's do this

00:02:26   but when it's like me promoting myself

00:02:28   it feels a bit weird and that tension is

00:02:32   a strange thing I think in some ways

00:02:33   it's unique to being an indie but I

00:02:36   think a lot of people probably struggle

00:02:38   with this type of thing when your brand

00:02:39   is more personal rather than sort of

00:02:44   more corporate yeah I mean this is I

00:02:47   think a lot of this plays into what I

00:02:49   think would probably be like the

00:02:51   stereotypical geek personality that many

00:02:54   people in our industry I think us

00:02:57   included I have which is you know it's

00:03:01   it's hard for people with this

00:03:02   personality type to self-promote it's

00:03:05   hard for them to like brag about

00:03:07   themselves and promote promote their

00:03:10   work a lot of times and this is

00:03:13   something I had to just get over over

00:03:15   the years honestly and I'm still not

00:03:16   great at it but it's it's really hard

00:03:20   for certain personality types to to be

00:03:23   willing to do that and I think what it

00:03:26   what helps to to distinguish here

00:03:28   between like times you should and

00:03:30   shouldn't do that or wet we know when or

00:03:33   where you shouldn't shouldn't do that is

00:03:34   to recognize that there are lots of

00:03:36   situations in which you know like like

00:03:39   walking around WTC tons of people there

00:03:42   are wearing their own t-shirts like

00:03:45   there that is if there's ever a time in

00:03:48   place to wear your own t-shirt of the

00:03:50   app you make or the company you work for

00:03:52   it's at a conference full of other

00:03:55   people doing the exact same thing like

00:03:58   the the cost of you doing that the risk

00:04:00   of you doing that is absolutely lowest

00:04:02   they're at during that week and there's

00:04:06   also you know situations like like if

00:04:09   you are at a you know a tech meetup or

00:04:11   you know it just any place where you're

00:04:13   where you're know you're gonna be

00:04:13   stranded by other software developers or

00:04:15   other people in your in your business

00:04:18   who are probably going to also be doing

00:04:20   the same thing like that's totally fine

00:04:22   and in fact

00:04:24   not only are you like you know not only

00:04:25   will will the world tolerate your

00:04:27   self-promotion during that time but as

00:04:30   you mentioned like for purposes like

00:04:31   starting up conversations or trying to

00:04:33   meet people who make the apps you like

00:04:35   it's actually helpful you actually

00:04:37   you're actually helping people find you

00:04:39   who want to find you or who are

00:04:41   interested in your in your app or or who

00:04:42   know who you are or who want to know who

00:04:45   you are so it's like you're actually

00:04:47   helping help by by being self

00:04:49   promotional in certain contexts such as

00:04:52   those kind of you know real-life

00:04:53   gatherings of similar types of people

00:04:55   and that you know it's just one of those

00:04:57   things where you just kind of have to

00:05:00   you just kind of had to think of it from

00:05:03   the other person's perspective of like

00:05:04   if I wear a shirt that identifies me as

00:05:08   the maker of this app or that or as the

00:05:11   host of the show or whatever is the

00:05:14   other person more likely to think I'm

00:05:16   being like an arrogant jerk or more

00:05:18   likely to recognize that from for people

00:05:23   who want to who are who are who are

00:05:24   interested in saying hi to me and and

00:05:27   will and that'll make their job actually

00:05:29   easier and they will appreciate that

00:05:30   rather than trying to guess wait is that

00:05:32   underscore there's just a line on a

00:05:35   shirt but that could be an underscore or

00:05:36   it could just be like a line because

00:05:39   it's kind of hard to put your name on a

00:05:40   shirt so I you know like there are so

00:05:44   many contexts like that in which you're

00:05:46   actually helping the other people by

00:05:48   doing that yeah and it's it's an

00:05:51   interesting thing too because I think

00:05:53   about the tension your soul I can

00:05:55   examine that there's a similar example

00:05:57   that's also a bit of a tension is like

00:05:59   the degree to which you talk about or

00:06:02   like mentioned when people say nice

00:06:04   things about your products right it's

00:06:08   like similar in this way where if

00:06:09   there's this strange tension around you

00:06:12   notice it's like if someone writes a

00:06:14   nice review of one of one of my apps do

00:06:16   I like you know put that on Twitter put

00:06:18   on my blog it's like that feels a little

00:06:20   weird like retweeting when people say

00:06:22   nice things about you like that's a

00:06:24   little gauche I guess like it's not

00:06:26   great but I think it what I've been

00:06:29   trying to work through is why that feels

00:06:30   weird versus what I'm increasingly

00:06:33   coming to grips with about being fine

00:06:34   with of the like it's good for people

00:06:37   too

00:06:37   know who you are and to know what you're

00:06:39   associated with and like that's just

00:06:42   building a brand versus being it's like

00:06:44   what can you start to get to the

00:06:46   question of what kind of brand do you

00:06:48   want to be and that's I think the more

00:06:51   interesting place to or like I need to

00:06:53   get comfortable with like the first step

00:06:55   like I am I am a brand like I have a

00:06:57   following online I do things in a public

00:07:01   in a public way like I make apps that

00:07:03   are used by hundreds of thousands of

00:07:05   people like that's an important thing

00:07:06   and I need just be okay with that and

00:07:09   it's like okay well what kind of brand

00:07:10   do I want to be because even big

00:07:12   companies have different brands that

00:07:13   makes like they have different

00:07:16   personalities to them like there's ones

00:07:18   that are very kind of like a casual or

00:07:22   very formal or very inviting and you

00:07:25   know even down to the things like I'm

00:07:26   thinking about like I'm working on that

00:07:28   you know what what design should I have

00:07:29   for like my shirt and it's like well

00:07:32   it's probably gonna be kind of geeky

00:07:33   like I'm going to make something that's

00:07:35   a little bit that that's not just like a

00:07:38   picture of an app icon like it's going

00:07:41   to be a little bit silly and that

00:07:42   probably speaks more to like the

00:07:45   personality of my company in my own

00:07:46   personality and I think that works but

00:07:49   it's like an important thing that I

00:07:51   really if it's kind of bad in some ways

00:07:53   like I've been doing this for so long

00:07:55   but I'm still have these like these

00:07:57   basic elements of marketing that I'm

00:07:59   just not really comfortable with or have

00:08:01   really thought through I mean I think it

00:08:04   really does have a lot to do with the

00:08:06   context you know as I said earlier like

00:08:08   you know there are some context in which

00:08:09   people actually are being helped by by

00:08:12   your marketing and you know - like your

00:08:15   example of like do you retweet things

00:08:17   that are complimentary in the context of

00:08:20   people who follow you on twitter who are

00:08:22   going to see this they don't need that

00:08:25   that that is not really helping them to

00:08:26   hear how awesome you are because they

00:08:28   already follow you they already think

00:08:29   you're awesome they don't need to see

00:08:30   everyone else thinking you're awesome

00:08:32   and you're retweeting that and it just

00:08:33   makes you look arrogant but if you have

00:08:36   a page for your product like a webpage

00:08:38   or even like people who could use the

00:08:40   description field on the app store for

00:08:41   this purpose put-put

00:08:44   endorsements they're like put positive

00:08:46   reviews like the way people pull out

00:08:48   call quotes like like you know people

00:08:50   like people do a movie posters

00:08:51   and you know put in the ellipses so

00:08:53   everything sounds good you know I think

00:08:55   like if if prominent people or

00:08:58   publications or anybody really says

00:09:02   something nice about you yet maybe don't

00:09:04   retweet it but put it on your marketing

00:09:06   page because in that kind of context

00:09:08   that is not only appropriate but can be

00:09:11   helpful to people who are visiting to

00:09:13   kind of see like you know who else has

00:09:15   vetted this app who you know is are

00:09:17   there any big publications or names that

00:09:19   I've heard of who've said nice things

00:09:21   about this like that's actually useful

00:09:22   information in that context so I think

00:09:26   you know it's it's tempting to just step

00:09:29   back and say well I I don't feel

00:09:31   comfortable doing any of this so I'm

00:09:33   just gonna let people find my stuff but

00:09:35   people won't find your stuff like that's

00:09:37   not how this works and that's that's

00:09:40   kind of it's it's almost a naive view of

00:09:44   like how how this world works now that

00:09:48   it's very tempting to to think it's a

00:09:51   very appealing notion to think that you

00:09:54   know I can just put something good out

00:09:55   there and it'll it'll get found people

00:09:58   will find it and sometimes that does

00:10:01   really happen but it really helps a lot

00:10:04   if you can grease the wheels a little

00:10:05   bit if you could get a lot more people

00:10:07   to look at it first and the way you do

00:10:10   that is is some kind of promotion some

00:10:13   kind of telling people what you're about

00:10:15   and I think the line that has to be

00:10:19   drawn is figuring out when such

00:10:21   promotion would be considered

00:10:23   inappropriate and not doing it in those

00:10:25   places but then finding the

00:10:27   opportunities where it is appropriate or

00:10:29   where it is even helpful and trying to

00:10:32   focus your efforts there and that's that

00:10:34   isn't always an easy line for a lot of

00:10:36   people to find you know and certain

00:10:38   certain products make an easier harder

00:10:40   certain personality types make that

00:10:41   easier or harder to it to figure out

00:10:42   where that line is but there are places

00:10:45   where it is totally appropriate to

00:10:47   market yourself and to market your app

00:10:49   and it isn't really if you think about

00:10:53   it it isn't even really that hard to

00:10:55   think about what those places might be

00:10:56   you know obviously there's conferences

00:10:57   and person things and I would say

00:10:59   anywhere where like you're going to a

00:11:00   meeting and everybody like passes out

00:11:02   business cards that's not that's not

00:11:03   what I'm talking about that's just

00:11:05   waste of paper but that is actually a

00:11:08   thing I've been wondering it's like

00:11:09   should I have business cards like I've

00:11:11   met business cards in years I I think in

00:11:13   our business the answer of generally is

00:11:15   no yeah but like this is every now and

00:11:17   I'm like I wonder if I'll at some point

00:11:19   I'll run into somebody who would be

00:11:21   important to be able to for them to know

00:11:24   like reach back out to me and it's like

00:11:26   I have no I have nothing to give you is

00:11:28   like I can write my name on your hand

00:11:30   like that's all I've got like it's not

00:11:33   it's not great but it's the same kind of

00:11:35   thing because like there are

00:11:36   opportunities like that like what you're

00:11:38   just saying it's like having those

00:11:39   contexts where it's completely

00:11:40   appropriate to interact in a marketing

00:11:43   way and say like it's like I'm this

00:11:45   person here's my app and I have

00:11:47   something to hand to them like it's if

00:11:49   you went to a trade show and had a booth

00:11:51   like you'll have things to hand out to

00:11:53   people because it's a context rupee if

00:11:55   someone wants to receive that you want

00:11:56   to be able to give it to them right

00:11:57   exactly and that's like there are so

00:12:00   many contexts like that in which your

00:12:02   self-promotion is welcome or helpful and

00:12:05   so for instance we talked in the past

00:12:07   about about pitching the press on your

00:12:09   app this is a great example of this kind

00:12:11   of thing where you know a web site that

00:12:13   posts links to things and reviews things

00:12:15   every day like daring fireball or Mac

00:12:17   stories or I'm or these sites need

00:12:20   things to post every day you're not

00:12:22   putting them out by suggesting hey might

00:12:25   want me and maybe check this out that I

00:12:26   just made it it solves this problem like

00:12:28   that you're not like you know I mean you

00:12:31   can be you can do it badly in a way this

00:12:33   seems spamming but if you just do it

00:12:35   like a human in a respectful way it

00:12:38   tends to be welcomed and that isn't to

00:12:41   say that they are guaranteed to to link

00:12:43   to you to cover you to give you a

00:12:44   positive review but you have to at least

00:12:46   do the first step of like letting people

00:12:48   know about your app because sites like

00:12:51   that need things to post every day so by

00:12:54   you promoting your app to them you are

00:12:56   not annoying them you are helping them

00:12:59   do their job like that so and so find

00:13:02   places we're hearing about your app will

00:13:06   help people do a job in a way that is

00:13:09   not spammy or annoying yeah so like for

00:13:11   me like you know blind the email blasts

00:13:14   when people blast email all over me I

00:13:16   don't I don't appreciate that very much

00:13:18   and one of the main reasons is because

00:13:20   like the the lists that people tend to I

00:13:24   assume by often include bad addresses

00:13:28   things like overcast support a dress a

00:13:31   hat like that's not an appropriate place

00:13:33   to send promotional stuff about your

00:13:35   service to make developers lives easier

00:13:36   but you know if like people run websites

00:13:40   that review apps and there's no there's

00:13:43   a contact form there or there's an email

00:13:45   address there for like hey hey send your

00:13:47   you know PR inquiries or whatever here

00:13:49   like that is the appropriate place that

00:13:51   they're asking you to do that there so

00:13:52   find places like that and and use that

00:13:55   to your advantage because honestly in

00:13:58   this business you have to be some degree

00:14:01   of self promotional because there's so

00:14:03   much out there there's so many other

00:14:04   apps there's so many other services

00:14:06   there's so many other consultants no

00:14:08   matter what you're doing in the in the

00:14:10   mobile app development business it's

00:14:12   crowded these days and you have to stand

00:14:15   out somehow there are so many people out

00:14:18   there who don't do any reasonable amount

00:14:20   of self-promotion who can't do it right

00:14:22   or who don't do it right if you can just

00:14:25   do that correctly at all you don't even

00:14:27   have to be great it just just be ok at

00:14:29   it and that will put you in like the top

00:14:31   5% of pretty much everybody else out

00:14:33   there doing the exact same thing as you

00:14:35   so that helps a lot and I would even

00:14:37   argue that if you're the kind of person

00:14:40   who who is just really having a hard

00:14:42   time with self-promotion and who really

00:14:44   can't do it I would argue that you're

00:14:47   probably better off working for a

00:14:49   company than working on your own because

00:14:51   it's such an important part of working

00:14:53   on your own that if you can't do it

00:14:55   someone else should be doing it for you

00:14:57   yeah and I think that's a great part

00:14:59   like aspect that I need always need to

00:15:01   remind myself about where just because

00:15:04   like I got into this business to write

00:15:06   software like to sit open Xcode and work

00:15:09   in there and just because that's what

00:15:11   I'm good at and just because that's what

00:15:13   I like like doing most doesn't somehow

00:15:16   mean that the other aspects of running a

00:15:19   software business like go away that like

00:15:21   they're not going to like somehow like

00:15:23   oh well that's what I do so I'm just

00:15:25   going to do that it's like no there are

00:15:26   many aspects to running a business that

00:15:28   I have to do and like some of them I can

00:15:31   outsource

00:15:32   like I have an accountant who files my

00:15:34   taxes for me because that's in a very

00:15:36   vital important part of my business but

00:15:38   it's something that I really don't want

00:15:40   to do that's something that she is way

00:15:42   better at doing than I am so I have her

00:15:45   have someone do that and so when I think

00:15:47   about something like marketing which is

00:15:48   a which is really but all of this is

00:15:50   like this is promotion and publicity and

00:15:51   marketing like it there are it's a

00:15:53   division within a bigger company it's

00:15:56   even if it's not something that I want

00:15:57   to do or feel qualified or skilled at

00:16:00   doing it's still something that's

00:16:01   important for me to get you know develop

00:16:04   that skill get better at etc because

00:16:07   it's not gonna if it doesn't happen it's

00:16:09   not like that's fine it's problematic

00:16:11   for my business and in in a big way -

00:16:14   its key of having the mindset after that

00:16:16   if I don't do this then all the work I'm

00:16:18   doing in Xcode is in many ways kind of

00:16:22   diminished because fewer people are

00:16:25   going to benefit from it you know fewer

00:16:26   people are going to see the products I

00:16:27   make and that's like I'm sort of like

00:16:30   shooting myself in the foot and so it's

00:16:32   like it has to be done and so it's like

00:16:35   yeah it's these thing weird things are

00:16:36   having to relieve think about how can I

00:16:38   get better at this like how can I find

00:16:40   be ok with and like under you know with

00:16:44   marketing myself what are things that I

00:16:45   should be doing that I don't you know

00:16:47   like a lot of my apps don't have good

00:16:48   really great websites or social media

00:16:52   presences or things like there are

00:16:54   aspects of them that I think about that

00:16:55   I'm like should I be doing more in that

00:16:57   should I not like does it matter

00:16:59   and maybe in our business like

00:17:00   specifically in the app store I don't

00:17:02   know the degree to which you having a

00:17:04   good website matters but it's definitely

00:17:07   something that I know I have to keep

00:17:09   reminding myself because my default is

00:17:11   never gonna be oh like focus ton on

00:17:14   marketing because that's not what I'm

00:17:16   like good at or skill that and got into

00:17:18   this business to do in the first place

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00:17:54   websites for things like uptime or

00:17:56   changes like underscore and I we we used

00:18:00   to run these checks to monitor the WDC

00:18:02   site for changes so that we could be the

00:18:05   first to know when the new year of WBC

00:18:07   tickets were announced and we could go

00:18:09   buy them before the lottery system it

00:18:10   actually worked really well didn't it

00:18:11   yeah I mean their their ability to

00:18:14   detect changes is way better than any

00:18:17   other system I've ever used so it's like

00:18:19   when we were back in the day when it was

00:18:21   this mad rush to get it to get to WB DC

00:18:23   and oh man I'm so glad those aren't the

00:18:25   days anymore but yeah that's like I'd

00:18:27   get you know my phone would just light

00:18:28   up like a Christmas tree

00:18:29   every time tickets were available for

00:18:31   WGC and I would know like within a few

00:18:34   seconds of the you know Apple publishing

00:18:36   the change I knew about it because

00:18:38   Pingdom is really on it and really

00:18:40   responsive to like detecting these kinds

00:18:42   of things yeah I mean and I've I have

00:18:45   used Pingdom myself since April of 2007

00:18:49   firstly you know use it a tumbler you

00:18:51   said it Instapaper use it at overcast

00:18:53   and I use it for my own blog for during

00:18:55   during most of that time as well I still

00:18:57   use it then so I have been using Pingdom

00:19:00   for longer than the iPhone has been out

00:19:02   the first iPhone like so to give you

00:19:06   some idea you know way before they're

00:19:07   responsive I've been using them for a

00:19:08   long time I have a lot of experience

00:19:11   with them they're great I strongly

00:19:13   recommend that if you have any kind of

00:19:16   website or web service that you care

00:19:19   about at all from a blog to a service

00:19:22   that your apps depend on to a marketing

00:19:24   page or whatever else have Pingdom

00:19:26   monitor it because first of all you'd be

00:19:28   surprised how often you have a little

00:19:30   outages at your host and that's good to

00:19:31   know and when you know doing things like

00:19:33   deciding what what hosts to go with or

00:19:35   what kind of hosts to go with and you

00:19:37   know you can get things fixed quickly I

00:19:39   I just I cannot recommend Pingdom enough

00:19:42   because here's what you don't want to

00:19:44   happen you don't want for you know for

00:19:47   you to be out all day and then you

00:19:49   launch your Twitter app and then you see

00:19:52   that six hours ago people on Twitter

00:19:54   started telling you hey your site's down

00:19:56   hey your site's down hey your site's to

00:19:58   you that's that's

00:20:00   not good that's not good for your

00:20:02   reputation it's not good for possibly

00:20:04   your income if your site is what

00:20:06   generates your money it certainly does

00:20:08   not look very professional if you have

00:20:10   to wait until people on Twitter tell

00:20:11   your site is down before you realize

00:20:13   it's down with Pingdom you are the first

00:20:15   to know it can check your site as often

00:20:17   as once a minute and it can text you it

00:20:19   can send push notifications it can send

00:20:21   emails it can do all those things or

00:20:23   some of those things none of those

00:20:24   things or some of those things

00:20:25   conditionally based on how severe it is

00:20:27   it is so great I again I've been using

00:20:30   it since 2007 strongly recommend it

00:20:32   check it out go to Pingdom calm for a

00:20:35   14-day free trial and use code radar to

00:20:38   get 20% off at checkout thanks a lot to

00:20:40   ping them for sponsoring us once again

00:20:41   all right so I think it's interesting to

00:20:45   to consider you know all these these

00:20:47   marketing angles and everything as you

00:20:50   know what's appropriate and what's not

00:20:53   obviously we can talk about this

00:20:54   academically and and it seems like I

00:20:58   have a slightly easier time than you do

00:21:00   or at least I

00:21:01   I started earlier the path towards self

00:21:03   promotion so you know at as you as you

00:21:08   know all the same things I do you know

00:21:09   as you can think about the same things

00:21:11   rationally what are the irrational

00:21:13   pressures or fears or conflicts that you

00:21:17   feel about this that other people might

00:21:19   relate to that you know and and can you

00:21:23   talk about maybe like just like the

00:21:25   feeling side of this like once you know

00:21:27   what you should be doing what still

00:21:29   stops you from doing it and what might

00:21:31   be a way that you could overcome that

00:21:32   yeah the one that comes to mind the most

00:21:35   and I think this is it's like at the

00:21:38   core of so much of these challenges is

00:21:41   that feeling of

00:21:42   it's like putting yourself out there

00:21:45   where I mean I still do every time I

00:21:48   write up an email to the press I always

00:21:52   have this feeling of like I can be so

00:21:54   proud of my app and what it does and how

00:21:57   well it works

00:21:58   and I'm sitting down to write this to

00:22:00   somebody and I get nervous and worried

00:22:03   and like what if they don't like it what

00:22:05   if they hate it what if they are gonna

00:22:07   you know reject me or be mean to me or

00:22:10   whatever like you can give these various

00:22:12   like you know sort of visceral feelings

00:22:13   about

00:22:14   that and I think around marketing and a

00:22:16   lot of these kind of like self

00:22:17   promotional things there is certainly an

00:22:19   element of that of this whenever anytime

00:22:21   that you are sort of really sort of

00:22:24   putting out your name in a way in a

00:22:26   public obvious way intentionally drawing

00:22:29   attention to yourself it's like you're

00:22:31   also setting yourself up for the

00:22:32   possibility of someone not liking you

00:22:35   and I think the thing that you have to

00:22:39   at certain point come to grips with is a

00:22:42   like there's always going to be people

00:22:44   who don't like you like no matter how

00:22:45   likeable you are there's always going to

00:22:47   be that and there's a certain amount of

00:22:49   just like you have to get Bo be okay

00:22:51   with that and not like get your you know

00:22:53   your value from other people like you

00:22:55   have to you know if I look at something

00:22:57   I make and I think it's good then that

00:22:59   at a certain point has to be enough that

00:23:01   it is a can't it doesn't have to just be

00:23:03   validated externally and but then it's

00:23:07   also just V being and being aware that

00:23:09   that's probably also not what's gonna

00:23:11   happen like the number of times I've had

00:23:13   the negative version of that you are

00:23:16   like I can remember them because that's

00:23:19   just the way human nature is that we

00:23:20   think like the impact of the negative is

00:23:23   what is disproportionate the impact are

00:23:25   the positive you know hundred people can

00:23:27   say a nice thing and one person can say

00:23:28   a mean thing and you remember that mean

00:23:30   thing but overall like that's not my

00:23:34   experience and it's but it's having to

00:23:37   overcome the emotional part of that of

00:23:40   that feeling of just like that

00:23:41   nervousness and the shyness I mean and

00:23:43   it's the same thing that happens in in

00:23:46   life like I remember we talked about

00:23:49   this a couple weeks ago with going to

00:23:50   tap YouTube EDC and looks like it's that

00:23:52   same feeling of when I'd see someone

00:23:55   that I'd recognize it's like oh should I

00:23:57   go say hi like I'd love to meet them but

00:24:00   being nervous about that and being

00:24:01   nervous how the conversation will go and

00:24:02   all these types of things when in

00:24:04   reality it goes fine like that's just

00:24:07   not the that's just not the reality like

00:24:10   people are generally very polite and

00:24:12   very nice and it'll go well but that

00:24:15   certainly is a like a genuine feeling to

00:24:17   overcome of that feeling of like is this

00:24:19   good enough is it going to go well

00:24:22   and so anytime you're drawing attention

00:24:23   to yourself like that's just part of the

00:24:26   bio that's just part of it but there's

00:24:27   definitely that like kind of irrational

00:24:29   feeling of like oh no like what if what

00:24:31   if people don't like me oh sure I mean

00:24:33   and and there's not I mean that's that's

00:24:36   hard for like you know III would expect

00:24:38   a lot of people who like computers who

00:24:42   were roughly our age probably had a

00:24:44   rough time socially in school growing up

00:24:46   I sure did and it's and a lot of those

00:24:49   pressures like come right back to life

00:24:50   feeling like you're in high school again

00:24:52   or middle school again and like getting

00:24:54   socially rejected or romantically

00:24:55   rejected and and there's like these

00:24:57   deep-rooted scars that so many of us

00:24:59   have from from growing up in that kind

00:25:01   of situation and so it's really hard to

00:25:04   overcome that feeling but the good thing

00:25:05   is as you mentioned like you know people

00:25:07   are generally nice and polite because

00:25:10   you know what we aren't in high school

00:25:11   anymore like everyone around us now as

00:25:14   like as an adult and usually they're a

00:25:16   lot like us similar back and so it's the

00:25:22   the chances of like getting really

00:25:24   scarred and and and rejected in the ways

00:25:27   that we're all like consciously or

00:25:29   subconsciously afraid of I think are

00:25:31   pretty low you know we're we're adults

00:25:33   now we're in we're in an industry now

00:25:34   we're like you know we won like this we

00:25:37   won the world like we don't have to

00:25:40   worry about about about all those like

00:25:41   emotional pressures anymore and you know

00:25:44   in this industry and the way things work

00:25:46   both in person and online you're not

00:25:49   likely to get rejected if the worst that

00:25:53   you can generally expect is to be

00:25:55   ignored or to be lost in in the shuffle

00:25:58   because there's just so much out there

00:26:00   and that's you can't really if that

00:26:02   happens and it will it happens to all of

00:26:04   us you can't really take that personally

00:26:06   because it's probably not for personal

00:26:09   reasons like you know if if Apple

00:26:11   doesn't pick you to be featured or if a

00:26:14   website doesn't pick you to to write

00:26:16   about or doesn't pick your app to review

00:26:17   that week it might be because they

00:26:20   didn't like it and they looked at it but

00:26:21   it's probably not because of that it's

00:26:23   probably because they got too much stuff

00:26:25   and the order slipped through the cracks

00:26:27   or they weren't or whatever yours did

00:26:29   that's not that kind of thing they were

00:26:30   looking for that week or you know

00:26:32   there's so many other reasons that it is

00:26:34   generally you know

00:26:36   due to if if you if you do get ignored

00:26:39   or passed over for something in this

00:26:41   business that it's probably not personal

00:26:43   it's probably not about your app your

00:26:45   app might not even been looked at that's

00:26:46   the reality of of getting rejected in

00:26:49   this business today is that it's

00:26:51   generally due to people being

00:26:52   overwhelmed not due to anything personal

00:26:56   against you and so the risk of putting

00:26:58   yourself out there is is pretty low

00:27:00   really and I think it's also that like

00:27:04   one of the most impressive things is

00:27:07   confidence and whether that is true

00:27:10   confidence or kind of like more of a

00:27:12   fake it till you make it kind of thing

00:27:14   but the like that's something that I

00:27:19   think Jen like universally people find

00:27:21   impressive like coming back to high

00:27:23   school or whatever like it's like the

00:27:24   people because like the kids who were

00:27:25   confident even if they're like comet

00:27:28   like confidently strange are still cool

00:27:31   like in in a way that is there is that

00:27:35   is like that is the thing that we're

00:27:37   sort of in in many ways and this is what

00:27:38   I strived I'm sort of striving toward

00:27:40   it's like being confident in what I make

00:27:43   being confident in so sort of like the

00:27:45   person I am and being able to be

00:27:48   authentic about that then it is like

00:27:51   that's something that's attractive

00:27:52   that's something that is interesting and

00:27:54   engaging and will start conversations

00:27:55   and will open doors and those types of

00:27:58   things I mean in some ways it's being

00:28:00   hidden it's like even just having the

00:28:02   confidence to ship in the first place is

00:28:04   a huge thing to have accomplished and in

00:28:07   marketing there's that same type of

00:28:09   thing it's like that when I run into

00:28:10   somebody and they ask me what apps they

00:28:12   like in the OPI Co what apps do you say

00:28:14   say oh what are you doing oh I'm a cap

00:28:15   so have I ever have I heard of any it's

00:28:18   like not being like oh probably not like

00:28:20   the non confident responsive or it's

00:28:22   like oh I make an app called pedometer

00:28:23   plus plus it you know and yeah start

00:28:26   with that don't even start with I make

00:28:27   apps

00:28:28   start with I make this particular ad

00:28:30   here's what it is here's what's called

00:28:31   here's what it does here's why you want

00:28:33   it it's exactly and having that

00:28:34   confidence that like this is something

00:28:35   that they were going to be interested in

00:28:37   and maybe they are maybe they won't but

00:28:39   it's way better and it's gonna come

00:28:40   across so much more appealing in a much

00:28:43   more appealing way if you start with

00:28:45   that confidence versus being like oh

00:28:47   well you know I do stuff

00:28:49   I kind of make stuff like that's not

00:28:51   appealing that's not that you're not

00:28:52   promoting yourself and you're doing your

00:28:54   work a discredit as a result exactly all

00:28:58   right that's all the time we have for

00:28:59   this week everybody see is coming up

00:29:01   really quickly now so we'll be talking

00:29:02   about that probably more next week I

00:29:04   would imagine everyone listening thank

00:29:06   you for listening and I will see you at

00:29:08   WTC wearing my own shirt nice I hope you

00:29:12   do too all right

00:29:13   see you next week all right bye