Under the Radar 20: Improving the App Store, Part 2
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welcome to under the radar a show about
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
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the radar is never long within 30
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minutes so let's get started so last
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week we talked about kind of why Apple
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probably needs to improve the App Store
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in broad terms like you know challenging
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the the question of like does the after
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need to be improved and it's so like
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what kind of improvements might we see
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and last last week we talked in kind of
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high-level of mostly just like why why
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we think it really does need improvement
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why we aren't just like being selfish
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and serving our own needs as independent
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developers try and make the App Store
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more more beneficial for us you know I
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think we argued well that it we that
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Apple really should change it to benefit
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not only the developers but themselves
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and customers as well that I don't think
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the app store is as good as it can be I
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don't think we've learned nothing from
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it's eight years of existence that could
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inform you know directions it should try
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to take or changes that it should try to
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make and I and I don't think that the
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apps are as good as they can be for the
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customers that that result from the
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system that we have now you know I'd
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like I recalled when I was getting on a
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plane how I tried to download like a
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bunch of good games and they were
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actually pretty hard to find and there's
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so much on there that's just kind of
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crappy and and simple and simplistic and
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and even like outright hostile to users
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which is like you know shoving hands all
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over the place and tricking them into
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buying coins and everything and III
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think that there's there's clear
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evidence that the App Store not only can
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be made better but should be made better
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but the actual specifics of doing that I
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think are really tricky but I think we
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yeah you know we can think about it and
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have some ideas like we've the nice
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thing on the plus side is that we've
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been following the App Store for I mean
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I think I've been some making a you know
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my first app was submitted almost eight
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years ago now like or whatever you know
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I was there almost at the beginning and
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so yep me too I look at it and it's like
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I think I have some ideas I think one of
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the most obvious is to look at the
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editorial side you know because right
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now the you know there's always the
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question that people raise of
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discoverability and when people complain
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about discoverability what they're
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usually really complaining about is they
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think their app deserves more
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visibility trying to look at this from a
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neutral perspective not just saying that
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I think my app deserves more visibility
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I think the main problem the App Store
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has with discoverability is that they
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have this massive number of apps there's
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just this unfathomable number of apps
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that they have to you know kind of kind
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of sort through and surface somehow and
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then they only have really a pretty
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small number of places that you can
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browse those apps that there's the the
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total surface area of discoverability
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beside just search which is a separate
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problem is it's kind of low you
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basically only have top charts and you
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and you have top charts in different
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categories so that helps a little bit so
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but you have top charts and then you
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have the editorial picks and even though
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the editorial staff is from what it
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seems massive because they have
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different editorial stats in different
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countries too so there's like the the
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amount of staffing devoted to picking
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those like you know 20 or whatever
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featured apps on the front page every
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week plus all the little subcategories
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of the collections plus doing that or
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some subset of that in a whole bunch of
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different countries and regions around
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the world that is not a small endeavor
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but the the total result of that is that
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when when a customer goes to the App
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Store and looks through the editorial
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picks there you know you can you can be
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through the entire editorial list in
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like a minute and a half it's not like
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you know there's not it it takes so much
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human effort on Apple side to produce a
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relatively small number of
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recommendations every week and every
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week is not that frequent so then you
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have the top charts which is just like
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it just has the problem of basically the
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rich get richer where it's it's very
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hard to break into the top charts it
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they tend to be self-reinforcing because
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then people who browse the top charts
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buy from the top charts and keep them
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going up even further so that system
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also only helps a very small number of
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apps and then you have search where
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search I think is really the one of the
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only places where most apps can be found
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but the search isn't that good in the
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App Store and and it has gotten less
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I still wouldn't call it great or even
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necessarily good but it is at least you
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know less bad but good searches are
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really hard and you know as we see from
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web search which has similar challenges
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but Apple has you know even less data in
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some ways than what you have on web
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search to go off of although they have a
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lot more data in other ways that I'm not
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sure they're using but it seems like the
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the overall discoverability of an app in
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the App Store is pretty miserable for
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almost every app just because the the
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number of ways people have to to see
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your app are so much smaller than the
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number of apps in the store and I don't
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know is it deep do you know like what
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what do you think would be a decent way
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to address that problem so I think so
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the most the most straightforward that
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thing that I think they could do is the
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sort like on is like the technological
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so that word there's like more of a
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technological solution it's like things
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like search I always makes me think of
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when I go to amazon.com right and I
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think Amazon sells like several hundred
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million products but I find that I'm
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pretty able pretty able to quickly go
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through and find like good solid choices
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because their search is more than just a
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text box that I put some words into like
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I put that anyway I put some words in a
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text box and then I go through mean I
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can go through and I can sort in a
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variety of different ways I can
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subdivide or there's further categories
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beyond just the highest level category
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and I could imagine an interface in the
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app store that would let you have more
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fine-grained control over what I'm
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searching for that you know you have the
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ability to say like show me even it's
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like base obvious stuff like show me
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free or paid apps show me apps that are
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universal or iPhone only show me apps
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that have reviews above a certain amount
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or are have updated or updated
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frequently or whatever like there are
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various criteria beyond just a text box
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that you could do to increase the
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ability to surface apps that are more
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specific to someone's
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user sort of needs because I think the
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search as it is now for example has the
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same kind of rich get richer problem
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that sometimes I benefit from and some
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my apps and sometimes I'm I'm hurt by in
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other apps where if you're the top one
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or two search results that's great
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that's sort of a really powerful
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marketing tool but if you're not like
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you're just you're just invisible as far
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as the as far as yet the typical user is
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concerned and that may or may not be
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good like if you're somebody who's
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looking for something ever very
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particular kind you just have to do a
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lot of sitting there go you know sort of
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paging through the app store doing
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things that it should be able to do
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programmatically for you that's like
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that side of it seems like that's a
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straight more straightforward like
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that's a technological fix and then yeah
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like I think on the editorial side I
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think it can like putting more and more
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resources into that seems like a
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conserve only makes it better that if
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you turn over the featured area more
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regularly and also one thing I've always
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thought they should do is taking the
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work that they put an editorial to like
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whenever an app is featured indicating
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that the app was featured somewhere on
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that apps page for example like right
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now I think unless you are an editors
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yeah editor's choice gets you that I
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think right but I don't think anything
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else does that seems like one of those
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things if it's almost like if Apple has
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taken the time and effort to look at an
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app and say you know what this is like
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on the approved list like they're saying
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that when they put it into the into the
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featured tab like someone at Apple has
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sat down and looked at it like once your
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feature is over obviously I can put that
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in my description and say like you know
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featured by Apple in the stay on track
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fitness category in such and such but
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it's like wouldn't it be great if
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there's a little like sort of like a
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little thumbs up icon next to the apps
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that Apple has said are you know are
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really good and as a customer were like
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being able like I was saying in search
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of like being able to say like has been
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featured I think would be an interesting
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kind of a way to improve discoverability
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of these apps that you know they're
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doing this work anyway like they're
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spending that time to come up with a
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weekly featured but then once they the
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app has been featured like that
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information just sort of disappears
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thinking too about like about just the
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the app page in general like we we also
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a fairly big issue of just horrible
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abuses of at metadata and there are some
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rules around what you are what you are
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and aren't allowed to put in the
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description and your keywords and your
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screenshots but it seems like those
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rules are fairly loosely enforced a lot
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of the time and so you have things like
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spamming up the description of your app
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with like tons and tons of like
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testimonials and stuff on right on top
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and and and you have things like
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spamming keywords of other app names of
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your competitors apps so that you turn
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up for their searches which is it has
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been I think against the rule since the
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very beginning but is almost completely
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unenforced partly our necessity of just
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like a scale issue there but it's still
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very you know mostly unenforced you have
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things like whether you're supposed to
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put text and overlays on your
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screenshots or not the good correct
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thing to do is not to do that but so
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many people do it that you are at a
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disadvantage if you don't I feel like
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maybe just like some basic rule
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tightening of what you can and can't put
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in your app metadata and on that app
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page I think would improve the
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real-world browse ability a lot and
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would improve search because then like
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if you if you more strictly enforce the
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keyword issues and everything you won't
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have as as poor of search results for
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things I don't know I mean do you think
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there's meaningful change to be had
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there on the app pages
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I think certainly there should be a ways
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to make that better and I think the
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consistency is I think that a big thing
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that I know I've always been frustrated
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with and it's like I look at say for
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example the watch apps you know making
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watch apps now and right now I believe
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you you know your app your watch screen
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shot can only show you the screen shot
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like right of the app and it's a rule
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with so far they seem to be enforcing
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strongly and that used to be the case
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back in the case of with you know at the
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end with the iPhone and then just over
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time it stopped being the case and
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things like that like that consistency I
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think would be helpful like to be
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anything it's they did the same thing
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with at previews which I believe were
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originally only allowed to show in app
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screens but I've certainly seen a
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previews now that show other things
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really that wasn't even like a year and
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it's not that I don't see
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much but it has the same type of a
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problem it's like it's the scale that a
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purview is dealing with that do they
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really are they really able to every
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time an app goes through review evaluate
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every you know every single screen shot
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in every single country and the app
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preview is associated with that for
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potentially many sizes like I understand
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it's like that's just a really tough
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problem but enforcing that I think would
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be certainly helpful and I think there's
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certainly I like what they did for
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example with a previews I think that's a
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great way to improve like it's probably
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the biggest improvement for a lot of
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apps that the in the app store page from
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you know eight years ago is being able
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to kind of show people what your app
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will be like when you actually get it
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because we don't have a trial or
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something like that for a lot of apps
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like this a screenshot a static
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screenshot doesn't really show you what
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the app is or what it's like you that
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you if it's something that you kind of
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have to experience or the motion and the
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animation or whatever it is of the app
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is the important part having a way to
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show that is great but I and I think
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there's those the things that I think
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about on the app page is trying to more
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straightforwardly indicate to the
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customer like the the the overall
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quality of the app and some of those
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things that I could even I think about
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like on the app store page is the way
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reviews reset every time you submit a
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new update a blurry reviews and so
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interviews is a whole thing but like
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that's one of the things that I look at
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and I'm like when I launch a new app or
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when we've been worst is when I launch a
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new update like I am I try and get a
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bunch of attention you know I do a big -
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oh like and I try and get a lot of
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people come into the App Store to
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download my app and in the app suddenly
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has no stars next to it it has never
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abused yeah when you're studying all
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that traffic to it and it's like why is
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this like I understand why they did that
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and it wasn't me and we we've I remember
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when they implemented that policy it was
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because they people would run into
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issues we could have like a bad update
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that would you know crash for everybody
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you get you know hundreds of one-star
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reviews you'd fix it and then all those
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one-star reviews would still be there
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like that's problematic in one way but
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it's like you approach this like the
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thing they always make sense to me is
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like you should show if you don't have
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enough reviews for the current version
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like the weighted average for the last
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30 days or always show the weighted
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average for the last 30 days or 90 days
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or whatever like anything like that
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where there is data if there is
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information that we can show customers
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like we can show if you've been featured
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if we can show the kinds of reviews that
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you tend to get we mean even like
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they're there collecting all this data
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with the new analytic stuff and iTunes
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Connect like all the retention and
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engagement data like they have a lot of
◼
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information about whether this app is
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good it's like it's for surfacing
◼
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somehow that kind of information to the
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customer to say people who download this
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app really like this app like I don't
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know exactly know how you show that but
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if you have the data somehow indicating
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that to the customer seems like a good
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good use of it rather than it just kind
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of disappearing into the ether the whole
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star rating system I think really needs
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a lot of help the the idea of first of
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all you know star ratings are very
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prominent in the app and many in the app
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store and many things I think depend on
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them like you know the I know search
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ranking was but has been rumored to be
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shifting with star rating obviously you
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know apples are more likely to feature
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something that has good ratings from
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past versions and also just I think
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buyers are you know or
◼
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getters are much more likely to download
◼
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an app that has good ratings under it
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when they go to look at this page and
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then and you know if you're looking for
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an app if you reconnect it has that has
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a few one star ratings and and the
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reasons that the people site seemed
◼
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valid then that's a big turn-off and you
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probably are going to reconsider buying
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or getting that app so they do matter a
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lot and the way they're implemented is
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so mediocre I feel like this is a this
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is an obvious area for substantial
◼
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specific improvements so obviously one
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of the big ones is just quality control
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like you see a lot of a lot of reviews
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out there that really could have used
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moderation like bye-bye app store staff
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like I honestly I think they they might
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want to consider a review before publish
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model I know that's a big scale but
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they're a big company this is a big
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store you know you got it invest
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resources sometimes also just you know
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reconsidering the five-star system at
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it's basically a one-star and five-star
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system so why not consider it
◼
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system that is more just based on do I
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feel good about this or do I feel bad
◼
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about this app and and rather you know
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rather than have this trying to make
◼
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people quantify like well how good or
◼
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how bad do I feel because I think we see
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over and over again those systems don't
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work very well and they don't really
◼
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accurately represent what people are
◼
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thinking with this app and then the
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obviou the other obvious problem of
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having there be no way for developers to
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respond to these things publicly or
◼
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privately and so you know I think
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publicly would be the only way you
◼
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really need to I don't think you
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necessarily need to give developers
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access to privately contact reviewer I
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think that could be an area for abuse
◼
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but publicly I feel like we should have
◼
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the ability to publicly respond to to a
◼
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bad review you know and and because a
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lot of times the bad review is not valid
◼
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or is unfair or is inflammatory or you
◼
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know so it's some other problem that
◼
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doesn't qualify it for removal but
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that's by Apple necessarily but that is
◼
►
not really a fair representation so it'd
◼
►
be nice as a developer to be able to
◼
►
respond to those so that when people
◼
►
look at it they can see how you
◼
►
responded or if you responded and I'm
◼
►
saying this I know it would be more work
◼
►
for us like I'm giving I'm giving us
◼
►
more homework but I think that's really
◼
►
important homework if they're gonna if
◼
►
you're gonna keep having the system and
◼
►
have it be as prominent as it is then I
◼
►
think it's it's a little bit
◼
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very frequently right now just because
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real AFN so the last area that it seems
◼
►
like we couldn't wait into thinking
◼
►
about a better App Store without
◼
►
discussing would be around
◼
►
thanks business models mmm around I mean
◼
►
the things that are perennial e-topics
◼
►
that come up for this
◼
►
so obviously that you think about things
◼
►
like trials or paid updates those types
◼
►
of questions or even just the way that
◼
►
in-app purchase kind of has become and
◼
►
is are things that I think there's
◼
►
certainly room for improvement like I
◼
►
remember a couple years ago and I wrote
◼
►
my big towards a better UPS App Store
◼
►
thing the thing that I was noticing even
◼
►
back then is the strange thing around
◼
►
trials the difference between like
◼
►
trials and refunds where like the App
◼
►
Store has this very ambiguous refund
◼
►
policy like I've gotten refunds for apps
◼
►
that I get downloaded and was totally
◼
►
different than what I actually expected
◼
►
it to be based on you know the
◼
►
description I saw in the app page see
◼
►
our discussion five minutes ago
◼
►
and you know I've it says you know live
◼
►
for a refund and I got it like okay
◼
►
that's great but if you go into the App
◼
►
Store like the actual like terms and
◼
►
conditions like that massive thing you
◼
►
sign every time you update anything like
◼
►
deep in there like it says that there
◼
►
aren't any refunds it says best I can
◼
►
tell and like having ambigú and big you
◼
►
around that in some ways is problematic
◼
►
like if there are refunds for people who
◼
►
don't like apps they download then
◼
►
basically you have trials but if you
◼
►
don't make that public or don't make it
◼
►
obvious and easy to do then it's not
◼
►
really a trial and so I think about
◼
►
things like that like if there are if
◼
►
they'd really don't want trials and
◼
►
don't have any refunds but I think they
◼
►
do and so why don't you make that
◼
►
process more straightforward and obvious
◼
►
like I love the thought I think and I
◼
►
know this is what a couple of other apps
◼
►
do of you download an app and if you
◼
►
delete it within a certain period of
◼
►
time you get a refund for it as though
◼
►
you know it's like you it has this
◼
►
built-in trial mode and the duration for
◼
►
that in many ways to me like I don't
◼
►
really mind too much exactly what that
◼
►
is like it could probably be fairly
◼
►
short and I'd be happy
◼
►
it could be fairly long and I'd be happy
◼
►
I mean maybe developers can choose that
◼
►
which might be even better
◼
►
yeah I mean I think ultimately I think
◼
►
it has to be optional because there are
◼
►
so many abuses of those systems for
◼
►
those do is I think Windows Phone was
◼
►
the one that was the big one where like
◼
►
you know you would like you try to like
◼
►
you basically have a large incentive to
◼
►
get all the value could out of an app
◼
►
within a short period of time and then
◼
►
delete it and claim a refund so for
◼
►
things like games it was especially
◼
►
problematic where like you just try to
◼
►
beat the whole game and like you know 24
◼
►
hours and then all right delete it I got
◼
►
every I want a refund like and that it's
◼
►
so that that kind of system being
◼
►
applied without choice to everybody is
◼
►
is obviously not good but it'd be great
◼
►
to have that as an option that you could
◼
►
opt into and especially if you could
◼
►
even set the duration because then yeah
◼
►
that is free trials if it happens
◼
►
automatically at least and and so that
◼
►
is you know I think with looking at
◼
►
things like trials and upgrades which
◼
►
we'll get to in a second I think this
◼
►
this won't solve the problems I
◼
►
mentioned last week about just there
◼
►
being way too many apps in the storage
◼
►
that they're being tons of competition
◼
►
it won't solve that problem but it will
◼
►
make it easier for the apps that can get
◼
►
some kind of attention and towards them
◼
►
to both get new customers or new users
◼
►
and then to stay healthy to sustain the
◼
►
business because I think if you look at
◼
►
the App Store one of the biggest
◼
►
problems it has and this is something
◼
►
Apple should care about because it's
◼
►
affecting their product lines is there
◼
►
are so many formerly great apps that
◼
►
have just fallen into disrepair no
◼
►
longer being maintained because the
◼
►
developer just couldn't make sustainable
◼
►
revenue from them enough to justify
◼
►
ongoing maintenance and ongoing
◼
►
expansion so then you have issues like
◼
►
Apple launches the iPad pro and a ton of
◼
►
iPad apps are not ever updated for it
◼
►
and then that might hurt sales of the
◼
►
I've had Pro you know like so this was
◼
►
something like Apple should care about
◼
►
these kinds of things because it is
◼
►
those are really hurting them
◼
►
so the question is you know are they
◼
►
doing everything in their power to to
◼
►
ensure that developers can that
◼
►
developers have the tools they need and
◼
►
the methods that they need to build
◼
►
sustainable businesses to keep their
◼
►
apps and the App Store and the platform
◼
►
healthy enough and I think the answer
◼
►
for that so far is is obviously know
◼
►
there's lots Apple could do that they
◼
►
have that they're not only not doing but
◼
►
that it seemed that they've never even
◼
►
tried or don't think they need to try
◼
►
and of course trials and upgrades I
◼
►
think are the two big examples of that
◼
►
and you can kind of simulate trials and
◼
►
upgrades through various app store hoops
◼
►
to jump through you can you can kind of
◼
►
do it with in-app purchase to some
◼
►
degree but there's a lot of restrictions
◼
►
around it and a lot of things that don't
◼
►
work very well if you try to do it that
◼
►
way and a lot of ways that customers can
◼
►
get really mad at you can give a whole
◼
►
bunch of one-star reviews like if you
◼
►
try to do a paid app upgrade by just
◼
►
having a second app and you replace the
◼
►
first app like that's a quick way to get
◼
►
a whole bunch people to hate you and and
◼
►
so I feel like if Apple implemented
◼
►
these things as first-class citizens
◼
►
these you know actual well-functioning
◼
►
trials and upgrades they'd be way better
◼
►
for the customers and for the developers
◼
►
and so we'd have more of them so we
◼
►
could have better apps because we'd have
◼
►
more ways to make sustainable income
◼
►
yeah and I think the reality is the
◼
►
things like just like we were saying
◼
►
around like we just want to see change
◼
►
here like I can't imagine that the
◼
►
business model that was sort of that the
◼
►
app store was conceived of you know all
◼
►
those years ago and still think makes
◼
►
the most sense now and so yeah I'd love
◼
►
to see even like I could see there's
◼
►
anything any system they have I could
◼
►
imagine there there being a reluctance
◼
►
to do it because of like the possibility
◼
►
for abuse for example but it's like it's
◼
►
not like the current system with which
◼
►
is essentially in-app purchase driven is
◼
►
devoid of abuse or opportunity for
◼
►
business right and so like yeah it would
◼
►
be very interesting to be able to do
◼
►
things like proper paid upgrades or are
◼
►
having trials that are time limited or
◼
►
those types of opportunities because I
◼
►
think the thing that it also speaks to
◼
►
is there's there are different you know
◼
►
it seems like there it seems is the for
◼
►
my experience it seems like there are
◼
►
different customers in the App Store
◼
►
there are people who are much more like
◼
►
the kind of like me I never download a
◼
►
paid app I've never paid for an app in
◼
►
my life I only ever download free apps
◼
►
like there are some people that I know
◼
►
and I have met who that's that that's
◼
►
their mindset and like that's totally
◼
►
cool like I'm having a problem if that's
◼
►
the way they see the App Store as part
◼
►
of you know as something that they just
◼
►
want to be there sort of as a free
◼
►
add-on to their phone great but I think
◼
►
there also may be many people many who
◼
►
I've met who view the who are delighted
◼
►
to pay for apps who are in who would
◼
►
prefer if they are presented with a free
◼
►
or a paid option for something that
◼
►
seems somewhat equivalent they'll take
◼
►
the paid one both because they like that
◼
►
in sort of the concept of supporting the
◼
►
person who makes it more directly maybe
◼
►
they feel like it'll be better supported
◼
►
down the road like they'd like to feel
◼
►
like they paid for something they don't
◼
►
like ads whatever it is like they have
◼
►
reasons for doing that and creating
◼
►
tools for developers to you know
◼
►
capitalize on those people and it's like
◼
►
in a good way not gonna like
◼
►
capitalizing on sounds like kind of
◼
►
skeevy but like having if your customers
◼
►
are looking or and willing to you know
◼
►
you pay for a big upgrade to the
◼
►
software that they've been using for a
◼
►
year having a mechanism to do that that
◼
►
isn't going to annoy them like seems
◼
►
like a good thing and that isn't going
◼
►
to hurt the people who like free apps
◼
►
and only want free apps if paid apps can
◼
►
have paid updates or things of that of
◼
►
that kind because they're just totally
◼
►
different markets and so giving
◼
►
developers tool to do that it seems like
◼
►
a good way to make sure that they're
◼
►
taking advantage of every opportunity
◼
►
they have for revenue because revenue is
◼
►
so hard to get in the first place that
◼
►
like giving us more options and choices
◼
►
seems like it will only be a good thing
◼
►
well and part of the power of the App
◼
►
Store when it first launched a part of
◼
►
the power it still has is you know
◼
►
before the after everything was
◼
►
web-based and paying for things on the
◼
►
sucked so much that it was just really
◼
►
hard to ever get someone to pay for
◼
►
something on the web because they would
◼
►
have to jump through all these hoops of
◼
►
entering their payment information and
◼
►
it was just this clunky process most
◼
►
people would just say a never mind
◼
►
whereas in with the App Store they had
◼
►
the credit card already on file from the
◼
►
iTunes Store and they could just type in
◼
►
a password and bam it's bought now it's
◼
►
even easier with touch ID
◼
►
so part of the you know we've seen
◼
►
already that if you make it easy to pay
◼
►
for it people are more likely and more
◼
►
willing and happier to pay not everybody
◼
►
will but more people will so if they you
◼
►
know right now we have all these methods
◼
►
of making of trying to use in-app
◼
►
purchase or swapping you know a new app
◼
►
for an old one that to try to kind of
◼
►
simulate trials and and upgrades but
◼
►
they're all worse than the way it would
◼
►
probably be if Apple built those in as
◼
►
first-class citizens so I think we would
◼
►
actually get more money we would
◼
►
actually do better and customers and
◼
►
developers would all be happier if Apple
◼
►
did these things because we could make
◼
►
more because it would be easier and it
◼
►
would work better and ultimately I think
◼
►
customers like ultimately it seems like
◼
►
you know you can ultimately hopefully
◼
►
wind anything Apple related back to
◼
►
customer sad right like that is
◼
►
ultimately the thing that seems to drive
◼
►
a lot of weather the way Apple thinks
◼
►
and customer satisfaction is something
◼
►
that you could see a lot like improving
◼
►
the tools around the business models
◼
►
that are available to developers
◼
►
improving that if you create
◼
►
opportunities in you know for a
◼
►
developer to make a good stable living
◼
►
their apps are going to be updated more
◼
►
regularly and stuff like you were saying
◼
►
within you know when when new platforms
◼
►
come out people will adopt them like
◼
►
that's only good for developers there's
◼
►
only good for customers and if it
◼
►
doesn't work like maybe they'd try all
◼
►
these things and in the end it wasn't
◼
►
the answer right like like I'm not
◼
►
completely convinced that adding paid
◼
►
upgrades would somehow dramatically and
◼
►
catastrophically improves things for a
◼
►
developer sustainability I think there's
◼
►
a good chance that would help things
◼
►
maybe it won't but trying seems like a
◼
►
way that like having never tried or just
◼
►
saying like hmm maybe that would work
◼
►
maybe it won't and if it's not for sure
◼
►
let's not do it it's not that's not
◼
►
helping anybody and so that's where I
◼
►
hope like you know if Phil Schiller ever
◼
►
hears this or is sitting down you know
◼
►
running up to WTC and thinking about
◼
►
things he wants to change in iOS 10
◼
►
hopefully these are the things that
◼
►
they're thinking about thinking about
◼
►
ways they can make things better for
◼
►
developers better for customers and you
◼
►
ultimately even in their own
◼
►
self-interest make their people you know
◼
►
more have more affinity for their
◼
►
platform because you know it's like the
◼
►
the app there's an app for that was that
◼
►
one of the plan to serve the marketing
◼
►
campaigns that I think really helped
◼
►
cement the iPhone you know as what it is
◼
►
today and it's all about the apps you
◼
►
know in that in that campaign exactly
◼
►
well I hope we see some improvements
◼
►
here I really do I'm hopeful that you
◼
►
know under new leadership maybe we will
◼
►
and I really I'm looking forward to
◼
►
seeing the result of that so that's all
◼
►
the time we have for this week
◼
►
thank you very much for listening and
◼
►
we'll talk to you next week bye