Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never long within 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so last

◼   ► week we talked about kind of why Apple

◼   ► probably needs to improve the App Store

◼   ► in broad terms like you know challenging

◼   ► the the question of like does the after

◼   ► need to be improved and it's so like

◼   ► what kind of improvements might we see

◼   ► and last last week we talked in kind of

◼   ► high-level of mostly just like why why

◼   ► we think it really does need improvement

◼   ► why we aren't just like being selfish

◼   ► and serving our own needs as independent

◼   ► developers try and make the App Store

◼   ► more more beneficial for us you know I

◼   ► think we argued well that it we that

◼   ► Apple really should change it to benefit

◼   ► not only the developers but themselves

◼   ► and customers as well that I don't think

◼   ► the app store is as good as it can be I

◼   ► don't think we've learned nothing from

◼   ► it's eight years of existence that could

◼   ► inform you know directions it should try

◼   ► to take or changes that it should try to

◼   ► make and I and I don't think that the

◼   ► apps are as good as they can be for the

◼   ► customers that that result from the

◼   ► system that we have now you know I'd

◼   ► like I recalled when I was getting on a

◼   ► plane how I tried to download like a

◼   ► bunch of good games and they were

◼   ► actually pretty hard to find and there's

◼   ► so much on there that's just kind of

◼   ► crappy and and simple and simplistic and

◼   ► and even like outright hostile to users

◼   ► which is like you know shoving hands all

◼   ► over the place and tricking them into

◼   ► buying coins and everything and III

◼   ► think that there's there's clear

◼   ► evidence that the App Store not only can

◼   ► be made better but should be made better

◼   ► but the actual specifics of doing that I

◼   ► think are really tricky but I think we

◼   ► yeah you know we can think about it and

◼   ► have some ideas like we've the nice

◼   ► thing on the plus side is that we've

◼   ► been following the App Store for I mean

◼   ► I think I've been some making a you know

◼   ► my first app was submitted almost eight

◼   ► years ago now like or whatever you know

◼   ► I was there almost at the beginning and

◼   ► so yep me too I look at it and it's like

◼   ► I think I have some ideas I think one of

◼   ► the most obvious is to look at the

◼   ► editorial side you know because right

◼   ► now the you know there's always the

◼   ► question that people raise of

◼   ► discoverability and when people complain

◼   ► about discoverability what they're

◼   ► usually really complaining about is they

◼   ► think their app deserves more

◼   ► visibility trying to look at this from a

◼   ► neutral perspective not just saying that

◼   ► I think my app deserves more visibility

◼   ► I think the main problem the App Store

◼   ► has with discoverability is that they

◼   ► have this massive number of apps there's

◼   ► just this unfathomable number of apps

◼   ► that they have to you know kind of kind

◼   ► of sort through and surface somehow and

◼   ► then they only have really a pretty

◼   ► small number of places that you can

◼   ► browse those apps that there's the the

◼   ► total surface area of discoverability

◼   ► beside just search which is a separate

◼   ► problem is it's kind of low you

◼   ► basically only have top charts and you

◼   ► and you have top charts in different

◼   ► categories so that helps a little bit so

◼   ► but you have top charts and then you

◼   ► have the editorial picks and even though

◼   ► the editorial staff is from what it

◼   ► seems massive because they have

◼   ► different editorial stats in different

◼   ► countries too so there's like the the

◼   ► amount of staffing devoted to picking

◼   ► those like you know 20 or whatever

◼   ► featured apps on the front page every

◼   ► week plus all the little subcategories

◼   ► of the collections plus doing that or

◼   ► some subset of that in a whole bunch of

◼   ► different countries and regions around

◼   ► the world that is not a small endeavor

◼   ► but the the total result of that is that

◼   ► when when a customer goes to the App

◼   ► Store and looks through the editorial

◼   ► picks there you know you can you can be

◼   ► through the entire editorial list in

◼   ► like a minute and a half it's not like

◼   ► you know there's not it it takes so much

◼   ► human effort on Apple side to produce a

◼   ► relatively small number of

◼   ► recommendations every week and every

◼   ► week is not that frequent so then you

◼   ► have the top charts which is just like

◼   ► it just has the problem of basically the

◼   ► rich get richer where it's it's very

◼   ► hard to break into the top charts it

◼   ► they tend to be self-reinforcing because

◼   ► then people who browse the top charts

◼   ► buy from the top charts and keep them

◼   ► going up even further so that system

◼   ► also only helps a very small number of

◼   ► apps and then you have search where

◼   ► search I think is really the one of the

◼   ► only places where most apps can be found

◼   ► but the search isn't that good in the

◼   ► App Store and and it has gotten less

◼   ► terrible over time

◼   ► I still wouldn't call it great or even

◼   ► necessarily good but it is at least you

◼   ► know less bad but good searches are

◼   ► really hard and you know as we see from

◼   ► web search which has similar challenges

◼   ► but Apple has you know even less data in

◼   ► some ways than what you have on web

◼   ► search to go off of although they have a

◼   ► lot more data in other ways that I'm not

◼   ► sure they're using but it seems like the

◼   ► the overall discoverability of an app in

◼   ► the App Store is pretty miserable for

◼   ► almost every app just because the the

◼   ► number of ways people have to to see

◼   ► your app are so much smaller than the

◼   ► number of apps in the store and I don't

◼   ► know is it deep do you know like what

◼   ► what do you think would be a decent way

◼   ► to address that problem so I think so

◼   ► the most the most straightforward that

◼   ► thing that I think they could do is the

◼   ► sort like on is like the technological

◼   ► so that word there's like more of a

◼   ► technological solution it's like things

◼   ► like search I always makes me think of

◼   ► when I go to amazon.com right and I

◼   ► think Amazon sells like several hundred

◼   ► million products but I find that I'm

◼   ► pretty able pretty able to quickly go

◼   ► through and find like good solid choices

◼   ► because their search is more than just a

◼   ► text box that I put some words into like

◼   ► I put that anyway I put some words in a

◼   ► text box and then I go through mean I

◼   ► can go through and I can sort in a

◼   ► variety of different ways I can

◼   ► subdivide or there's further categories

◼   ► beyond just the highest level category

◼   ► and I could imagine an interface in the

◼   ► app store that would let you have more

◼   ► fine-grained control over what I'm

◼   ► searching for that you know you have the

◼   ► ability to say like show me even it's

◼   ► like base obvious stuff like show me

◼   ► free or paid apps show me apps that are

◼   ► universal or iPhone only show me apps

◼   ► that have reviews above a certain amount

◼   ► or are have updated or updated

◼   ► frequently or whatever like there are

◼   ► various criteria beyond just a text box

◼   ► that you could do to increase the

◼   ► ability to surface apps that are more

◼   ► specific to someone's

◼   ► user sort of needs because I think the

◼   ► search as it is now for example has the

◼   ► same kind of rich get richer problem

◼   ► that sometimes I benefit from and some

◼   ► my apps and sometimes I'm I'm hurt by in

◼   ► other apps where if you're the top one

◼   ► or two search results that's great

◼   ► that's sort of a really powerful

◼   ► marketing tool but if you're not like

◼   ► you're just you're just invisible as far

◼   ► as the as far as yet the typical user is

◼   ► concerned and that may or may not be

◼   ► good like if you're somebody who's

◼   ► looking for something ever very

◼   ► particular kind you just have to do a

◼   ► lot of sitting there go you know sort of

◼   ► paging through the app store doing

◼   ► things that it should be able to do

◼   ► programmatically for you that's like

◼   ► that side of it seems like that's a

◼   ► straight more straightforward like

◼   ► that's a technological fix and then yeah

◼   ► like I think on the editorial side I

◼   ► think it can like putting more and more

◼   ► resources into that seems like a

◼   ► conserve only makes it better that if

◼   ► you turn over the featured area more

◼   ► regularly and also one thing I've always

◼   ► thought they should do is taking the

◼   ► work that they put an editorial to like

◼   ► whenever an app is featured indicating

◼   ► that the app was featured somewhere on

◼   ► that apps page for example like right

◼   ► now I think unless you are an editors

◼   ► pick

◼   ► yeah editor's choice gets you that I

◼   ► think right but I don't think anything

◼   ► else does that seems like one of those

◼   ► things if it's almost like if Apple has

◼   ► taken the time and effort to look at an

◼   ► app and say you know what this is like

◼   ► on the approved list like they're saying

◼   ► that when they put it into the into the

◼   ► featured tab like someone at Apple has

◼   ► sat down and looked at it like once your

◼   ► feature is over obviously I can put that

◼   ► in my description and say like you know

◼   ► featured by Apple in the stay on track

◼   ► fitness category in such and such but

◼   ► it's like wouldn't it be great if

◼   ► there's a little like sort of like a

◼   ► little thumbs up icon next to the apps

◼   ► that Apple has said are you know are

◼   ► really good and as a customer were like

◼   ► being able like I was saying in search

◼   ► of like being able to say like has been

◼   ► featured I think would be an interesting

◼   ► kind of a way to improve discoverability

◼   ► of these apps that you know they're

◼   ► doing this work anyway like they're

◼   ► spending that time to come up with a

◼   ► weekly featured but then once they the

◼   ► app has been featured like that

◼   ► information just sort of disappears

◼   ► thinking too about like about just the

◼   ► the app page in general like we we also

◼   ► have have a

◼   ► a fairly big issue of just horrible

◼   ► abuses of at metadata and there are some

◼   ► rules around what you are what you are

◼   ► and aren't allowed to put in the

◼   ► description and your keywords and your

◼   ► screenshots but it seems like those

◼   ► rules are fairly loosely enforced a lot

◼   ► of the time and so you have things like

◼   ► spamming up the description of your app

◼   ► with like tons and tons of like

◼   ► testimonials and stuff on right on top

◼   ► and and and you have things like

◼   ► spamming keywords of other app names of

◼   ► your competitors apps so that you turn

◼   ► up for their searches which is it has

◼   ► been I think against the rule since the

◼   ► very beginning but is almost completely

◼   ► unenforced partly our necessity of just

◼   ► like a scale issue there but it's still

◼   ► very you know mostly unenforced you have

◼   ► things like whether you're supposed to

◼   ► put text and overlays on your

◼   ► screenshots or not the good correct

◼   ► thing to do is not to do that but so

◼   ► many people do it that you are at a

◼   ► disadvantage if you don't I feel like

◼   ► maybe just like some basic rule

◼   ► tightening of what you can and can't put

◼   ► in your app metadata and on that app

◼   ► page I think would improve the

◼   ► real-world browse ability a lot and

◼   ► would improve search because then like

◼   ► if you if you more strictly enforce the

◼   ► keyword issues and everything you won't

◼   ► have as as poor of search results for

◼   ► things I don't know I mean do you think

◼   ► there's meaningful change to be had

◼   ► there on the app pages

◼   ► I think certainly there should be a ways

◼   ► to make that better and I think the

◼   ► consistency is I think that a big thing

◼   ► that I know I've always been frustrated

◼   ► with and it's like I look at say for

◼   ► example the watch apps you know making

◼   ► watch apps now and right now I believe

◼   ► you you know your app your watch screen

◼   ► shot can only show you the screen shot

◼   ► like right of the app and it's a rule

◼   ► with so far they seem to be enforcing

◼   ► strongly and that used to be the case

◼   ► back in the case of with you know at the

◼   ► end with the iPhone and then just over

◼   ► time it stopped being the case and

◼   ► things like that like that consistency I

◼   ► think would be helpful like to be

◼   ► anything it's they did the same thing

◼   ► with at previews which I believe were

◼   ► originally only allowed to show in app

◼   ► screens but I've certainly seen a

◼   ► previews now that show other things

◼   ► really that wasn't even like a year and

◼   ► it's not that I don't see

◼   ► much but it has the same type of a

◼   ► problem it's like it's the scale that a

◼   ► purview is dealing with that do they

◼   ► really are they really able to every

◼   ► time an app goes through review evaluate

◼   ► every you know every single screen shot

◼   ► in every single country and the app

◼   ► preview is associated with that for

◼   ► potentially many sizes like I understand

◼   ► it's like that's just a really tough

◼   ► problem but enforcing that I think would

◼   ► be certainly helpful and I think there's

◼   ► certainly I like what they did for

◼   ► example with a previews I think that's a

◼   ► great way to improve like it's probably

◼   ► the biggest improvement for a lot of

◼   ► apps that the in the app store page from

◼   ► you know eight years ago is being able

◼   ► to kind of show people what your app

◼   ► will be like when you actually get it

◼   ► because we don't have a trial or

◼   ► something like that for a lot of apps

◼   ► like this a screenshot a static

◼   ► screenshot doesn't really show you what

◼   ► the app is or what it's like you that

◼   ► you if it's something that you kind of

◼   ► have to experience or the motion and the

◼   ► animation or whatever it is of the app

◼   ► is the important part having a way to

◼   ► show that is great but I and I think

◼   ► there's those the things that I think

◼   ► about on the app page is trying to more

◼   ► straightforwardly indicate to the

◼   ► customer like the the the overall

◼   ► quality of the app and some of those

◼   ► things that I could even I think about

◼   ► like on the app store page is the way

◼   ► reviews reset every time you submit a

◼   ► new update a blurry reviews and so

◼   ► interviews is a whole thing but like

◼   ► that's one of the things that I look at

◼   ► and I'm like when I launch a new app or

◼   ► when we've been worst is when I launch a

◼   ► new update like I am I try and get a

◼   ► bunch of attention you know I do a big -

◼   ► oh like and I try and get a lot of

◼   ► people come into the App Store to

◼   ► download my app and in the app suddenly

◼   ► has no stars next to it it has never

◼   ► abused yeah when you're studying all

◼   ► that traffic to it and it's like why is

◼   ► this like I understand why they did that

◼   ► and it wasn't me and we we've I remember

◼   ► when they implemented that policy it was

◼   ► because they people would run into

◼   ► issues we could have like a bad update

◼   ► that would you know crash for everybody

◼   ► you get you know hundreds of one-star

◼   ► reviews you'd fix it and then all those

◼   ► one-star reviews would still be there

◼   ► like that's problematic in one way but

◼   ► it's like you approach this like the

◼   ► thing they always make sense to me is

◼   ► like you should show if you don't have

◼   ► enough reviews for the current version

◼   ► then show

◼   ► like the weighted average for the last

◼   ► 30 days or always show the weighted

◼   ► average for the last 30 days or 90 days

◼   ► or whatever like anything like that

◼   ► where there is data if there is

◼   ► information that we can show customers

◼   ► like we can show if you've been featured

◼   ► if we can show the kinds of reviews that

◼   ► you tend to get we mean even like

◼   ► they're there collecting all this data

◼   ► with the new analytic stuff and iTunes

◼   ► Connect like all the retention and

◼   ► engagement data like they have a lot of

◼   ► information about whether this app is

◼   ► good it's like it's for surfacing

◼   ► somehow that kind of information to the

◼   ► customer to say people who download this

◼   ► app really like this app like I don't

◼   ► know exactly know how you show that but

◼   ► if you have the data somehow indicating

◼   ► that to the customer seems like a good

◼   ► good use of it rather than it just kind

◼   ► of disappearing into the ether the whole

◼   ► star rating system I think really needs

◼   ► a lot of help the the idea of first of

◼   ► all you know star ratings are very

◼   ► prominent in the app and many in the app

◼   ► store and many things I think depend on

◼   ► them like you know the I know search

◼   ► ranking was but has been rumored to be

◼   ► shifting with star rating obviously you

◼   ► know apples are more likely to feature

◼   ► something that has good ratings from

◼   ► past versions and also just I think

◼   ► buyers are you know or

◼   ► getters are much more likely to download

◼   ► an app that has good ratings under it

◼   ► when they go to look at this page and

◼   ► then and you know if you're looking for

◼   ► an app if you reconnect it has that has

◼   ► a few one star ratings and and the

◼   ► reasons that the people site seemed

◼   ► valid then that's a big turn-off and you

◼   ► probably are going to reconsider buying

◼   ► or getting that app so they do matter a

◼   ► lot and the way they're implemented is

◼   ► so mediocre I feel like this is a this

◼   ► is an obvious area for substantial

◼   ► specific improvements so obviously one

◼   ► of the big ones is just quality control

◼   ► like you see a lot of a lot of reviews

◼   ► out there that really could have used

◼   ► moderation like bye-bye app store staff

◼   ► like I honestly I think they they might

◼   ► want to consider a review before publish

◼   ► model I know that's a big scale but

◼   ► they're a big company this is a big

◼   ► store you know you got it invest

◼   ► resources sometimes also just you know

◼   ► reconsidering the five-star system at

◼   ► all

◼   ► it's basically a one-star and five-star

◼   ► system so why not consider it

◼   ► system that is more just based on do I

◼   ► feel good about this or do I feel bad

◼   ► about this app and and rather you know

◼   ► rather than have this trying to make

◼   ► people quantify like well how good or

◼   ► how bad do I feel because I think we see

◼   ► over and over again those systems don't

◼   ► work very well and they don't really

◼   ► accurately represent what people are

◼   ► thinking with this app and then the

◼   ► obviou the other obvious problem of

◼   ► having there be no way for developers to

◼   ► respond to these things publicly or

◼   ► privately and so you know I think

◼   ► publicly would be the only way you

◼   ► really need to I don't think you

◼   ► necessarily need to give developers

◼   ► access to privately contact reviewer I

◼   ► think that could be an area for abuse

◼   ► but publicly I feel like we should have

◼   ► the ability to publicly respond to to a

◼   ► bad review you know and and because a

◼   ► lot of times the bad review is not valid

◼   ► or is unfair or is inflammatory or you

◼   ► know so it's some other problem that

◼   ► doesn't qualify it for removal but

◼   ► that's by Apple necessarily but that is

◼   ► not really a fair representation so it'd

◼   ► be nice as a developer to be able to

◼   ► respond to those so that when people

◼   ► look at it they can see how you

◼   ► responded or if you responded and I'm

◼   ► saying this I know it would be more work

◼   ► for us like I'm giving I'm giving us

◼   ► more homework but I think that's really

◼   ► important homework if they're gonna if

◼   ► you're gonna keep having the system and

◼   ► have it be as prominent as it is then I

◼   ► think it's it's a little bit

◼   ► misrepresentative

◼   ► very frequently right now just because

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◼   ► real AFN so the last area that it seems

◼   ► like we couldn't wait into thinking

◼   ► about a better App Store without

◼   ► discussing would be around

◼   ► thanks business models mmm around I mean

◼   ► the things that are perennial e-topics

◼   ► that come up for this

◼   ► so obviously that you think about things

◼   ► like trials or paid updates those types

◼   ► of questions or even just the way that

◼   ► in-app purchase kind of has become and

◼   ► is are things that I think there's

◼   ► certainly room for improvement like I

◼   ► remember a couple years ago and I wrote

◼   ► my big towards a better UPS App Store

◼   ► thing the thing that I was noticing even

◼   ► back then is the strange thing around

◼   ► trials the difference between like

◼   ► trials and refunds where like the App

◼   ► Store has this very ambiguous refund

◼   ► policy like I've gotten refunds for apps

◼   ► that I get downloaded and was totally

◼   ► different than what I actually expected

◼   ► it to be based on you know the

◼   ► description I saw in the app page see

◼   ► our discussion five minutes ago

◼   ► and you know I've it says you know live

◼   ► for a refund and I got it like okay

◼   ► that's great but if you go into the App

◼   ► Store like the actual like terms and

◼   ► conditions like that massive thing you

◼   ► sign every time you update anything like

◼   ► deep in there like it says that there

◼   ► aren't any refunds it says best I can

◼   ► tell and like having ambigú and big you

◼   ► around that in some ways is problematic

◼   ► like if there are refunds for people who

◼   ► don't like apps they download then

◼   ► basically you have trials but if you

◼   ► don't make that public or don't make it

◼   ► obvious and easy to do then it's not

◼   ► really a trial and so I think about

◼   ► things like that like if there are if

◼   ► they'd really don't want trials and

◼   ► don't have any refunds but I think they

◼   ► do and so why don't you make that

◼   ► process more straightforward and obvious

◼   ► like I love the thought I think and I

◼   ► know this is what a couple of other apps

◼   ► do of you download an app and if you

◼   ► delete it within a certain period of

◼   ► time you get a refund for it as though

◼   ► you know it's like you it has this

◼   ► built-in trial mode and the duration for

◼   ► that in many ways to me like I don't

◼   ► really mind too much exactly what that

◼   ► is like it could probably be fairly

◼   ► short and I'd be happy

◼   ► it could be fairly long and I'd be happy

◼   ► I mean maybe developers can choose that

◼   ► which might be even better

◼   ► yeah I mean I think ultimately I think

◼   ► it has to be optional because there are

◼   ► so many abuses of those systems for

◼   ► those do is I think Windows Phone was

◼   ► the one that was the big one where like

◼   ► you know you would like you try to like

◼   ► you basically have a large incentive to

◼   ► get all the value could out of an app

◼   ► within a short period of time and then

◼   ► delete it and claim a refund so for

◼   ► things like games it was especially

◼   ► problematic where like you just try to

◼   ► beat the whole game and like you know 24

◼   ► hours and then all right delete it I got

◼   ► every I want a refund like and that it's

◼   ► so that that kind of system being

◼   ► applied without choice to everybody is

◼   ► is obviously not good but it'd be great

◼   ► to have that as an option that you could

◼   ► opt into and especially if you could

◼   ► even set the duration because then yeah

◼   ► that is free trials if it happens

◼   ► automatically at least and and so that

◼   ► is you know I think with looking at

◼   ► things like trials and upgrades which

◼   ► we'll get to in a second I think this

◼   ► this won't solve the problems I

◼   ► mentioned last week about just there

◼   ► being way too many apps in the storage

◼   ► that they're being tons of competition

◼   ► it won't solve that problem but it will

◼   ► make it easier for the apps that can get

◼   ► some kind of attention and towards them

◼   ► to both get new customers or new users

◼   ► and then to stay healthy to sustain the

◼   ► business because I think if you look at

◼   ► the App Store one of the biggest

◼   ► problems it has and this is something

◼   ► Apple should care about because it's

◼   ► affecting their product lines is there

◼   ► are so many formerly great apps that

◼   ► have just fallen into disrepair no

◼   ► longer being maintained because the

◼   ► developer just couldn't make sustainable

◼   ► revenue from them enough to justify

◼   ► ongoing maintenance and ongoing

◼   ► expansion so then you have issues like

◼   ► Apple launches the iPad pro and a ton of

◼   ► iPad apps are not ever updated for it

◼   ► and then that might hurt sales of the

◼   ► I've had Pro you know like so this was

◼   ► something like Apple should care about

◼   ► these kinds of things because it is

◼   ► those are really hurting them

◼   ► so the question is you know are they

◼   ► doing everything in their power to to

◼   ► ensure that developers can that

◼   ► developers have the tools they need and

◼   ► the methods that they need to build

◼   ► sustainable businesses to keep their

◼   ► apps and the App Store and the platform

◼   ► healthy enough and I think the answer

◼   ► for that so far is is obviously know

◼   ► there's lots Apple could do that they

◼   ► have that they're not only not doing but

◼   ► that it seemed that they've never even

◼   ► tried or don't think they need to try

◼   ► and of course trials and upgrades I

◼   ► think are the two big examples of that

◼   ► and you can kind of simulate trials and

◼   ► upgrades through various app store hoops

◼   ► to jump through you can you can kind of

◼   ► do it with in-app purchase to some

◼   ► degree but there's a lot of restrictions

◼   ► around it and a lot of things that don't

◼   ► work very well if you try to do it that

◼   ► way and a lot of ways that customers can

◼   ► get really mad at you can give a whole

◼   ► bunch of one-star reviews like if you

◼   ► try to do a paid app upgrade by just

◼   ► having a second app and you replace the

◼   ► first app like that's a quick way to get

◼   ► a whole bunch people to hate you and and

◼   ► so I feel like if Apple implemented

◼   ► these things as first-class citizens

◼   ► these you know actual well-functioning

◼   ► trials and upgrades they'd be way better

◼   ► for the customers and for the developers

◼   ► and so we'd have more of them so we

◼   ► could have better apps because we'd have

◼   ► more ways to make sustainable income

◼   ► yeah and I think the reality is the

◼   ► things like just like we were saying

◼   ► around like we just want to see change

◼   ► here like I can't imagine that the

◼   ► business model that was sort of that the

◼   ► app store was conceived of you know all

◼   ► those years ago and still think makes

◼   ► the most sense now and so yeah I'd love

◼   ► to see even like I could see there's

◼   ► anything any system they have I could

◼   ► imagine there there being a reluctance

◼   ► to do it because of like the possibility

◼   ► for abuse for example but it's like it's

◼   ► not like the current system with which

◼   ► is essentially in-app purchase driven is

◼   ► devoid of abuse or opportunity for

◼   ► business right and so like yeah it would

◼   ► be very interesting to be able to do

◼   ► things like proper paid upgrades or are

◼   ► having trials that are time limited or

◼   ► those types of opportunities because I

◼   ► think the thing that it also speaks to

◼   ► is there's there are different you know

◼   ► it seems like there it seems is the for

◼   ► my experience it seems like there are

◼   ► different customers in the App Store

◼   ► there are people who are much more like

◼   ► the kind of like me I never download a

◼   ► paid app I've never paid for an app in

◼   ► my life I only ever download free apps

◼   ► like there are some people that I know

◼   ► and I have met who that's that that's

◼   ► their mindset and like that's totally

◼   ► cool like I'm having a problem if that's

◼   ► the way they see the App Store as part

◼   ► of you know as something that they just

◼   ► want to be there sort of as a free

◼   ► add-on to their phone great but I think

◼   ► there also may be many people many who

◼   ► I've met who view the who are delighted

◼   ► to pay for apps who are in who would

◼   ► prefer if they are presented with a free

◼   ► or a paid option for something that

◼   ► seems somewhat equivalent they'll take

◼   ► the paid one both because they like that

◼   ► in sort of the concept of supporting the

◼   ► person who makes it more directly maybe

◼   ► they feel like it'll be better supported

◼   ► down the road like they'd like to feel

◼   ► like they paid for something they don't

◼   ► like ads whatever it is like they have

◼   ► reasons for doing that and creating

◼   ► tools for developers to you know

◼   ► capitalize on those people and it's like

◼   ► in a good way not gonna like

◼   ► capitalizing on sounds like kind of

◼   ► skeevy but like having if your customers

◼   ► are looking or and willing to you know

◼   ► you pay for a big upgrade to the

◼   ► software that they've been using for a

◼   ► year having a mechanism to do that that

◼   ► isn't going to annoy them like seems

◼   ► like a good thing and that isn't going

◼   ► to hurt the people who like free apps

◼   ► and only want free apps if paid apps can

◼   ► have paid updates or things of that of

◼   ► that kind because they're just totally

◼   ► different markets and so giving

◼   ► developers tool to do that it seems like

◼   ► a good way to make sure that they're

◼   ► taking advantage of every opportunity

◼   ► they have for revenue because revenue is

◼   ► so hard to get in the first place that

◼   ► like giving us more options and choices

◼   ► seems like it will only be a good thing

◼   ► well and part of the power of the App

◼   ► Store when it first launched a part of

◼   ► the power it still has is you know

◼   ► before the after everything was

◼   ► web-based and paying for things on the

◼   ► web

◼   ► sucked so much that it was just really

◼   ► hard to ever get someone to pay for

◼   ► something on the web because they would

◼   ► have to jump through all these hoops of

◼   ► entering their payment information and

◼   ► it was just this clunky process most

◼   ► people would just say a never mind

◼   ► they'd abandon it

◼   ► whereas in with the App Store they had

◼   ► the credit card already on file from the

◼   ► iTunes Store and they could just type in

◼   ► a password and bam it's bought now it's

◼   ► even easier with touch ID

◼   ► so part of the you know we've seen

◼   ► already that if you make it easy to pay

◼   ► for it people are more likely and more

◼   ► willing and happier to pay not everybody

◼   ► will but more people will so if they you

◼   ► know right now we have all these methods

◼   ► of making of trying to use in-app

◼   ► purchase or swapping you know a new app

◼   ► for an old one that to try to kind of

◼   ► simulate trials and and upgrades but

◼   ► they're all worse than the way it would

◼   ► probably be if Apple built those in as

◼   ► first-class citizens so I think we would

◼   ► actually get more money we would

◼   ► actually do better and customers and

◼   ► developers would all be happier if Apple

◼   ► did these things because we could make

◼   ► more because it would be easier and it

◼   ► would work better and ultimately I think

◼   ► customers like ultimately it seems like

◼   ► you know you can ultimately hopefully

◼   ► wind anything Apple related back to

◼   ► customer sad right like that is

◼   ► ultimately the thing that seems to drive

◼   ► a lot of weather the way Apple thinks

◼   ► and customer satisfaction is something

◼   ► that you could see a lot like improving

◼   ► the tools around the business models

◼   ► that are available to developers

◼   ► improving that if you create

◼   ► opportunities in you know for a

◼   ► developer to make a good stable living

◼   ► their apps are going to be updated more

◼   ► regularly and stuff like you were saying

◼   ► within you know when when new platforms

◼   ► come out people will adopt them like

◼   ► that's only good for developers there's

◼   ► only good for customers and if it

◼   ► doesn't work like maybe they'd try all

◼   ► these things and in the end it wasn't

◼   ► the answer right like like I'm not

◼   ► completely convinced that adding paid

◼   ► upgrades would somehow dramatically and

◼   ► catastrophically improves things for a

◼   ► developer sustainability I think there's

◼   ► a good chance that would help things

◼   ► maybe it won't but trying seems like a

◼   ► way that like having never tried or just

◼   ► saying like hmm maybe that would work

◼   ► maybe it won't and if it's not for sure

◼   ► let's not do it it's not that's not

◼   ► helping anybody and so that's where I

◼   ► hope like you know if Phil Schiller ever

◼   ► hears this or is sitting down you know

◼   ► running up to WTC and thinking about

◼   ► things he wants to change in iOS 10

◼   ► hopefully these are the things that

◼   ► they're thinking about thinking about

◼   ► ways they can make things better for

◼   ► developers better for customers and you

◼   ► know

◼   ► ultimately even in their own

◼   ► self-interest make their people you know

◼   ► more have more affinity for their

◼   ► platform because you know it's like the

◼   ► the app there's an app for that was that

◼   ► one of the plan to serve the marketing

◼   ► campaigns that I think really helped

◼   ► cement the iPhone you know as what it is

◼   ► today and it's all about the apps you

◼   ► know in that in that campaign exactly

◼   ► well I hope we see some improvements

◼   ► here I really do I'm hopeful that you

◼   ► know under new leadership maybe we will

◼   ► and I really I'm looking forward to

◼   ► seeing the result of that so that's all

◼   ► the time we have for this week

◼   ► thank you very much for listening and

◼   ► we'll talk to you next week bye