Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment

◼   ► and I'm David Smith under the radar is

◼   ► never longer than 30 minutes so let's

◼   ► get started so today we're going to

◼   ► unpack some of the things that we think

◼   ► might make the App Store better and if

◼   ► you were a listener to developing

◼   ► perspective the show I did before this

◼   ► one you might know that I look about a

◼   ► year ago I did a long long series

◼   ► actually two years ago I did a long

◼   ► series about things that I thought could

◼   ► make the App Store better and we both

◼   ► kind of make it make our livings inside

◼   ► of the App Store and so as you would

◼   ► imagine we have a lot of concerns

◼   ► thoughts goals like things we'd like we

◼   ► think about in the abstract because it's

◼   ► a place we spend a lot of time both as a

◼   ► customer but also as a as a producer

◼   ► it's easy I think for us to look at the

◼   ► App Store and to just kind of like whine

◼   ► about it to look at and say oh I wish I

◼   ► did this I wish you did that like we all

◼   ► have some kind of like pet things that

◼   ► we think might make it better for

◼   ► whatever that you know better might mean

◼   ► to us but it's challenging it's

◼   ► difficult for unless perhaps to take the

◼   ► sort of like the step back and say you

◼   ► know the App Store is the way it is you

◼   ► know and whining about that isn't going

◼   ► to change it we can look at it we can

◼   ► learn from it and it's like our job as a

◼   ► developers is to understand how we can

◼   ► make a living inside of sort of it as as

◼   ► it exists and hope that Apple is doing

◼   ► things on their end to make it better

◼   ► but from the outside it seems like you

◼   ► know sometimes when I think of have the

◼   ► office or too much I start to get sad

◼   ► and I go and like I'm trying to be a

◼   ► good student of the App Store and

◼   ► understand like what's being successful

◼   ► what's working you know go to the

◼   ► top-grossing list which isn't

◼   ► necessarily the most constructive place

◼   ► because that's not really the kind of

◼   ► apps I'm making you know but I go there

◼   ► and I look at like them but the top mode

◼   ► the top grossing app we're at right now

◼   ► as a recording is clash Royale and I go

◼   ► to its IEP list and it's like what would

◼   ► you like to buy a fistful of gems a

◼   ► pouch of gems a bucket of gems a barrel

◼   ► of gem the mountain of gems or a

◼   ► wagonload of gems is that really what I

◼   ► thought you were Joe

◼   ► that is that is the list of the top

◼   ► in-app purchases in the top-grossing

◼   ► half right now and it's kind of sad too

◼   ► when I think about like I go to W

◼   ► you see every year and almost always

◼   ► they'll have like Apple will have a big

◼   ► slide that talks about how much money

◼   ► they've paid out to developers

◼   ► last year it was something like 14

◼   ► billion dollars or something and rather

◼   ► than that being like exciting and

◼   ► encouraging and being like yeah let's

◼   ► you know let's let's do this guy's it

◼   ► just kind of makes me sad because I look

◼   ► at that number and I just think well I

◼   ► guess that's a lot of wagons full of

◼   ► gems just not great yeah I mean look

◼   ► that that number you know outside of any

◼   ► information on the distribution of those

◼   ► stats like you know the median might be

◼   ► a little more interesting although

◼   ► honestly it we probably be pretty sad to

◼   ► just in the opposite direction but yeah

◼   ► I mean like when you have these these

◼   ► mega hit games that are bringing in

◼   ► hundreds of thousands of dollars a day

◼   ► or more that that's that's roughly what

◼   ► we're talking about here it's you could

◼   ► be bringing in millions of dollars a day

◼   ► from our perspective it's it's it's

◼   ► really easy to look at that and be like

◼   ► wow why am I even in the App Store if

◼   ► that's what succeeds but that's you know

◼   ► that's not a very productive way to look

◼   ► at it or encourage me to look at it I

◼   ► think a better way to look at it is we

◼   ► aren't even playing the same game as

◼   ► these people and the what we need to be

◼   ► concerned about is is there a game that

◼   ► we can play here like is there a spot

◼   ► for us in the App Store where we can

◼   ► succeed I think you know there's enough

◼   ► apps by smaller shops that aren't

◼   ► abusive games like this if there's

◼   ► enough apps that do succeed that the

◼   ► answer to that is is almost certainly

◼   ► yes there is a spot but that doesn't

◼   ► mean necessarily that it's easy to get

◼   ► into one of those spots although it

◼   ► might not necessarily need to be easy

◼   ► but that also doesn't mean that Apple's

◼   ► you know doing everything they can to

◼   ► make sure the rest of the store is

◼   ► healthy besides just that top grocery

◼   ► list and there's lots of areas I think

◼   ► for potential improvement that we're

◼   ► gonna talk about yeah and I think it's

◼   ► one thing everything that motivated I

◼   ► think this discussion I wanted to sort

◼   ► of talk about it now is that if the

◼   ► first time in a long time I feel like

◼   ► there's outward signs that the App Store

◼   ► is going to be changing this year and

◼   ► most significant of which is Phil

◼   ► Schiller is now taking responsibility

◼   ► for it which I mean I think Phil is

◼   ► awesome and that's really encouraging to

◼   ► me but even just the simple fact of

◼   ► there's a change in leadership there

◼   ► that there

◼   ► a change in responsibility like in my

◼   ► mind can only be better be good and I

◼   ► think I'm encouraged that even Phil is

◼   ► kind of publicly in a few random sort of

◼   ► tweets or things when people are

◼   ► bringing to his attention like there's

◼   ► weird issues in the AppStore like a

◼   ► private link in the show notes to a

◼   ► tweet someone sent to him showing a sort

◼   ► of like a featured area in the App Store

◼   ► for the puzzle games and it's just full

◼   ► chock-full of the 2048 clones and you

◼   ► kind of have the ne his response to that

◼   ► it's like that shouldn't happen we'll

◼   ► look into it

◼   ► thank you and the fact that he's that

◼   ► kind of thing is even happening at any

◼   ► level makes me encourage and so I think

◼   ► we wanted to do for the rest of the

◼   ► episode is to kind of think through what

◼   ► are some things that we would like to

◼   ► see done you know like we were if we

◼   ► were sitting down in a room with Phil

◼   ► and he was like you know as independent

◼   ► developers what could I do to make the

◼   ► App Store better for you like what would

◼   ► that be and think through what what that

◼   ► would actually be and things that we

◼   ► could think about that would make you

◼   ► know the App Store an objectively better

◼   ► place both as a customer or as a you

◼   ► know someone who makes their living in

◼   ► it

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◼   ► relay event all right I think that one

◼   ► of the biggest things I'd like to see I

◼   ► just want to see signs of motion signs

◼   ► that Apple believes that this isn't as

◼   ► good as it could be and is willing to

◼   ► take the steps to prioritize real change

◼   ► and experimentation and improvement in

◼   ► the App Store because the App Store is

◼   ► now just under 8 years old for being

◼   ► almost 8 it really has not changed very

◼   ► much from the way it was launched there

◼   ► have been small improvements here and

◼   ► there but almost unchanged the entire

◼   ► industry Apple included have we learned

◼   ► nothing since it started you know

◼   ► obviously we've learned something so I

◼   ► think it's it's upon Apple 2 to just

◼   ► show that like they're willing to make

◼   ► changes over time as we learn what works

◼   ► what doesn't what's healthy what's not

◼   ► and so far we've seen very little of

◼   ► that so that's what I my number-one hope

◼   ► is not any any one particular change but

◼   ► just I really hope that Apple just shows

◼   ► signs of not being complacent not

◼   ► thinking that what they have now is the

◼   ► inevitable end and as good as it can get

◼   ► I agree yeah and I think seeing and I

◼   ► said nej in some ways it's any change

◼   ► like there are certainly things that

◼   ► like pet things that I would like and

◼   ► we'll certainly talk about but just

◼   ► having a sense that the App Store is

◼   ► going somewhere and that I could explain

◼   ► if I if I look towards might like my own

◼   ► personal future of like should this be

◼   ► the place that I'm making my living if

◼   ► it seems like it's going getting worse

◼   ► and worse or at least you know sort of

◼   ► has plateaued at a not great level like

◼   ► that's not an encouraging thing to look

◼   ► forward to and to seek to kind of invest

◼   ► my time and

◼   ► in two versus something that seems like

◼   ► even if it's just a slow incremental

◼   ► process of getting better and better

◼   ► that would be great that would be

◼   ► encouraging like that would be in

◼   ► motivating and something that would be

◼   ► work you know make it feel more

◼   ► worthwhile to put all the you know sort

◼   ► of all the time and attention that I'm

◼   ► putting into the App Store currently

◼   ► yeah I mean that's because like I feel

◼   ► like where it is now is not in a very

◼   ► encouraging place for people like us

◼   ► you know right now like we can get by

◼   ► but it's hard and there's not a lot of

◼   ► headroom it doesn't feel like it's it's

◼   ► on its way up anymore it feels like it's

◼   ► on its way down but at least for people

◼   ► like us you know and it feels like we

◼   ► have fewer and fewer options over time

◼   ► of like how to make a decent living in

◼   ► the App Store

◼   ► a lot of this is just market forces at

◼   ► work here a lot of this is not within

◼   ► Apple's control to change by far the

◼   ► biggest problem in the App Store for for

◼   ► you know Indies to get by is just that

◼   ► there's a massive amount of relentless

◼   ► competition not only for exactly the

◼   ► same things that your apps do like you

◼   ► know I really support cast app there's

◼   ► already a whole bunch of podcast apps

◼   ► out there so that's problem number one

◼   ► problem number two anything I do in mine

◼   ► that that will be different or

◼   ► noteworthy other people will be able to

◼   ► do as well

◼   ► you know nothing I'm not like I don't

◼   ► have any kind of magical abilities that

◼   ► nobody else can duplicate you know it

◼   ► anybody can do the same things I do and

◼   ► if you have an app that is popular at

◼   ► all that will happen because number

◼   ► three there are absolutely to Hans of

◼   ► developers out there they all are trying

◼   ► to make the same living out of the same

◼   ► pie and the pie is growing but so is

◼   ► that pool developers and then finally

◼   ► number four there are lots of other

◼   ► things competing for everyone's

◼   ► attention all the time on their phones

◼   ► as well so even if your app does pretty

◼   ► well against other similar apps you're

◼   ► also competing with literally everything

◼   ► else they have available on their phone

◼   ► which is everything in the consumer web

◼   ► world right now basically he's so like

◼   ► you're competing with those top grossing

◼   ► games or like instead of listening to a

◼   ► podcast they could choose to go play a

◼   ► clash or whatever you know so you you

◼   ► are competing with all of those things

◼   ► because this this is the hot place to be

◼   ► the the level of competition is just

◼   ► immense

◼   ► and ruthless yeah I mean I think I would

◼   ► sir like before the show I went and took

◼   ► a look at just trying to put quantify

◼   ► just how big the AppStore is and how

◼   ► much it's continuing to even grow and

◼   ► honestly at the end of looking at all

◼   ► this I just had tremendous sympathy for

◼   ► the poor app reviewers because right now

◼   ► in the App Store I think they're defined

◼   ► a couple of conflicting numbers but the

◼   ► number is somewhere in the ballpark of

◼   ► around 2 million apps and it seems like

◼   ► there's they're being added to the store

◼   ► at roughly two thousand a day seems to

◼   ► be the best number I could get kind of

◼   ► looking around which means that during

◼   ► this show like during 30 minutes of this

◼   ► show something like 42 apps will have

◼   ► launched and that's just new app that's

◼   ► crazy

◼   ► it doesn't let even updates like the

◼   ► poor people in app review I don't even

◼   ► know how that's like how to conceive of

◼   ► the workload that those poor people must

◼   ► have even you can't release apps that

◼   ► quickly even me I mean I'm famous for

◼   ► having lots of haves and I look at this

◼   ► and it's like how like the first thing

◼   ► that I think of that Apple needs to work

◼   ► on is understanding if they're going to

◼   ► do something about that early on in the

◼   ► App Store they used to always get up on

◼   ► stage and talk about they'd be you know

◼   ► we now we have a hundred thousand apps

◼   ► now we have five hundred thousand apps

◼   ► we have a million apps like as though

◼   ► having a big number were something

◼   ► desirous and in the early stages maybe

◼   ► it was to say like you know they really

◼   ► when they were first building out the

◼   ► App Store it was an important thing to

◼   ► have lots of apps and to cover all the

◼   ► different goals and things that people

◼   ► might want to do on their phones but my

◼   ► suspicion is at this point that all

◼   ► those say 2,000 new apps every day I

◼   ► can't imagine all of them or at least

◼   ► even the majority of them are really

◼   ► adding to the platform and making it

◼   ► better and stronger and puts a

◼   ► tremendous load I'm sure on the app

◼   ► review team and so it means that like

◼   ► you and I when we submit a bug fix

◼   ► updates say like you know we have

◼   ► something some problem in our half we

◼   ► submit it we have to wait at least a

◼   ► week to get it reviewed and out into the

◼   ► store and I can't imagine so I don't

◼   ► imagine some of that is coming from just

◼   ► the sheer volume of junk and like that's

◼   ► say 2000 is the right number it's like

◼   ► 2008 apps are being new maps are being

◼   ► approved like how many what's the number

◼   ► of apps that are getting rejected it's

◼   ► just got it like there's got to be

◼   ► things that Apple can do on that end and

◼   ► I don't know if it's changing the review

◼   ► guidelines making it so that there's

◼   ► some kind of extra barriers to actually

◼   ► submitting apps to try and make it you

◼   ► know or being just sort of harsher

◼   ► in-app review and having higher

◼   ► standards understood from more editorial

◼   ► opinionated side to make it so that

◼   ► people get the answer so very quickly

◼   ► you would expect that if the process of

◼   ► just sort of putting sort of knock or

◼   ► not high-level apps into the App Store

◼   ► became unsuccessful after a while people

◼   ► would stop doing that it would be a

◼   ► waste of time and not really worth the

◼   ► effort or something but if that's so

◼   ► risky though like any anything they do

◼   ► to try to make subjective judgments I

◼   ► feel like is is just asking for trouble

◼   ► because I mean they already have a lot

◼   ► of these things now and they do often

◼   ► get crap for making a bad decision

◼   ► usually usually warranted anything they

◼   ► do to try to sell like okay well now

◼   ► your app doesn't have to just follow

◼   ► these rules it also has to be like

◼   ► worthy a little bit to some degree even

◼   ► if it's just a minor degree this has to

◼   ► be like worthy of being included in the

◼   ► store it has to have value to somebody

◼   ► and they already define that minimum

◼   ► functionality rule which is you know

◼   ► vague and that just refers to a level of

◼   ► functionality what if there was also a

◼   ► level of minimum quality again that

◼   ► there have been rules that are kind of

◼   ► eluded this and the guidelines since the

◼   ► beginning but they haven't really been

◼   ► enforced very much the problem though is

◼   ► that this isn't just like Phil Schiller

◼   ► making those decisions this is probably

◼   ► hundreds of employees in a preview

◼   ► whoo-hoo all have to be making the

◼   ► decisions constantly they're not gonna

◼   ► be able to kick every one of them up to

◼   ► a manager for approval so you're gonna

◼   ► have to have to come up with rules that

◼   ► can be consistently enforced with a with

◼   ► a large staff the more room for

◼   ► subjectivity there is the harder it is

◼   ► to achieve consistency and they already

◼   ► have issues with this anything they do

◼   ► to make the rules to basically raise the

◼   ► bar of their minimum quality standards

◼   ► they're gonna get so many more

◼   ► problematic rejections

◼   ► so much more bad press about problematic

◼   ► rejections and they're gonna have people

◼   ► like us complaining so it's it's a hard

◼   ► balance to strike I don't think they've

◼   ► struck the right balance yet you know

◼   ► certainly raising the bar is is

◼   ► challenging

◼   ► oh sure yeah I mean and I look at that

◼   ► and it's like I don't and no Envy how

◼   ► they would make the decision but it

◼   ► seems like it's either you have to

◼   ► take the approach of like the Google

◼   ► Playstore like the bar is like is this

◼   ► basically functional and not malware

◼   ► kind of at least conceptually I mean I'm

◼   ► not a Google Play expert but the app

◼   ► review process there is much more

◼   ► streamlined and straightforward as it

◼   ► says best I understand it where you have

◼   ► very lowest low bars and you know you

◼   ► approach the sort of problem almost more

◼   ► on the like on the demand side rather

◼   ► than the supply side like you just let

◼   ► anybody who wants to have an app be in

◼   ► the store if you do that you just need

◼   ► to build the store itself like the

◼   ► front-end into that such that users can

◼   ► very easily and quickly get away from

◼   ► things that aren't great and only and

◼   ► are driven towards things that are good

◼   ► because I think you could probably say

◼   ► like the best the ultimate goal of the

◼   ► app store like if you had to try and

◼   ► boil it down is that any time a customer

◼   ► downloads an app they're getting a good

◼   ► experience like that would be seeing a

◼   ► reasonable goal for what the app store

◼   ► is trying to do that a user says I have

◼   ► a need or I want to be amused or

◼   ► entertained or whatever it is and they

◼   ► go to the App Store now the things that

◼   ► they find there are going to give them a

◼   ► positive experience and you know there's

◼   ► a lot of things that the Apple could do

◼   ► for maybe on the editorial side to

◼   ► dramatically you know improve that

◼   ► structure where right now you know of

◼   ► the in the App Store app like there's

◼   ► the featured area the top charts area

◼   ► and the explore area the featured area

◼   ► they certainly I think they do a pretty

◼   ► good job like there are very rarely

◼   ► things in that first tab of the App

◼   ► Store that I look at and I see and that

◼   ► I'm like if someone downloaded that that

◼   ► they're gonna have a bad experience if

◼   ► the in the top charts area it's starts

◼   ► to get a lot more questionable and

◼   ► there's a little bit of like cell

◼   ► filtering of that that obviously people

◼   ► in order to get beyond one of those

◼   ► lists lots of people had to have they

◼   ► thought that your app was good but it

◼   ► starts to get more questionable and then

◼   ► you get into the Explorer tab like that

◼   ► poor third tab in the App Store app

◼   ► which has been three or four different

◼   ► things over the last eight years and

◼   ► just feels like it's always turning over

◼   ► and it never quite finds its way but you

◼   ► know like that's the place that you will

◼   ► start to very quickly kind of get into

◼   ► areas where it's the quality or at least

◼   ► the the robustness of those apps or it

◼   ► becomes more and more problematic as you

◼   ► go and say

◼   ► maybe if apical can't fix it on there

◼   ► like on the review side maybe it's just

◼   ► let's just focus on editorial its staff

◼   ► up dramatically really go through the

◼   ► app store and it's like if we think

◼   ► these apps aren't good like we're you

◼   ► know maybe it's like we just flag them

◼   ► as such and we say like you know this is

◼   ► a bee app and it's not going to show up

◼   ► into certain places or it's going to be

◼   ► very be prioritized and the way that

◼   ► people can find it but it's still there

◼   ► like I don't know is that better I hope

◼   ► they would do something like that behind

◼   ► the scenes though I figured they

◼   ► probably aren't but if they did it would

◼   ► probably not be wise for us to know

◼   ► about that because I think that would

◼   ► cause issues you know ultimately what we

◼   ► what we want Apple to do is to make it

◼   ► easier for apps like ours to to be

◼   ► successful and and to be found by people

◼   ► in the app store but it's worth

◼   ► challenging the assumption that our abs

◼   ► are better you know like it likes sure

◼   ► if you look at what's actually in the

◼   ► App Store and if you look at that top

◼   ► grossing list and you see what succeeds

◼   ► it's probably hard for Apple look at

◼   ► that and think they have to do anything

◼   ► differently than what they're doing now

◼   ► in in like content choosing or or or

◼   ► steering the rules in such a way to

◼   ► encourage or discourage different types

◼   ► of apps than what they're getting now

◼   ► because what they're doing now is

◼   ► working very well just not people like

◼   ► us but it's working very well for some

◼   ► people and it's working very well it by

◼   ► many metrics for apples customers in the

◼   ► way that people are downloading a bunch

◼   ► of apps they are playing these games and

◼   ► putting their coins in it does work for

◼   ► a lot of people now just not us so is

◼   ► that really a problem like do you think

◼   ► Apple sees it as a problem and do you

◼   ► think it actually is a problem it's a

◼   ► tough question it's really hard to

◼   ► separate obviously the my own personal

◼   ► views and business from like sort of

◼   ► just like the more objective if this was

◼   ► not what I did and I was just a you know

◼   ► someone who just went to the Apple store

◼   ► bought an iPhone and opened up the App

◼   ► Store like and it is definitely a trap

◼   ► and I think you're sort of pointing good

◼   ► right to point it out is of the in these

◼   ► types of discussions in our community

◼   ► that you can very easily slip into the

◼   ► very subjective just like indie apps are

◼   ► better kind of a mindset and you end up

◼   ► with like well it's like if there's not

◼   ► a vibrant independent community of app

◼   ► of app makers that some

◼   ► like the world is a sad and terrible

◼   ► place and you know and you could argue

◼   ► in some ways it's like you know smaller

◼   ► companies tend to take bigger risks and

◼   ► so more innovation happens or those

◼   ► types of kind of more justifications in

◼   ► some ways what I hope is that if Apple

◼   ► is happy with the majority of sort of

◼   ► successful businesses in the App Store

◼   ► or a lot of the money for the App Store

◼   ► whatever coming from those types of

◼   ► games and being or even just being game

◼   ► focused in general that the majority si

◼   ► gets its games and big companies like

◼   ► Thea in the top ten grossing apps there

◼   ► are other things that aren't games

◼   ► there's things like Spotify or like

◼   ► services like that big companies the

◼   ► reality may be it's like and like the

◼   ► hard thing to say to myself is maybe

◼   ► that's fine with Apple and they're

◼   ► totally cool with that and in some ways

◼   ► their actions thus far are ready to

◼   ► indicate that they are and there's the

◼   ► you know the introspection I'm saying

◼   ► like if that's the reality it's like am

◼   ► I just in the wrong place at this point

◼   ► it's like it's not something that I

◼   ► really want to make a change about I'm

◼   ► not saying like oh I want to get out of

◼   ► the App Store but it's like and I look

◼   ► at that I'm like maybe at some point I

◼   ► will have to though because it would

◼   ► just sort of not be economically viable

◼   ► to do what I do and that would make me

◼   ► sad but yeah like it's it's not up to me

◼   ► to decide what goes into the App Store

◼   ► or what apps should you know should the

◼   ► App Store be geared around making viable

◼   ► obviously I'd like for it to be more

◼   ► viable for me and I think you could make

◼   ► a reasonable argument that it's

◼   ► important to have some base level of the

◼   ► smaller developers like us kind of

◼   ► filling in cracks and pushing boundaries

◼   ► and when new things come out you know

◼   ► it's like well I've made my business in

◼   ► a lot of ways about watching Apple and

◼   ► how they push your new technology out in

◼   ► there and their phones or in the in iOS

◼   ► looking for new opportunities and as

◼   ► soon as I can jumping on those and being

◼   ► able to take advantage of being smaller

◼   ► and being able to make those kinds of

◼   ► decisions that maybe bigger companies

◼   ► can't

◼   ► and that seems like a good thing but

◼   ► it's certainly for my it's like it's

◼   ► very selfish and self-centred to say

◼   ► like if the App Store doesn't make my

◼   ► business model work then you know it's

◼   ► not good the way that the App Store

◼   ► bothers me now that with like what

◼   ► succeeds and what doesn't you know not

◼   ► only from from just like a you know an

◼   ► obvious like envy that those aren't my

◼   ► apps in the top

◼   ► grossing position but what bothers me

◼   ► that I think might be relevant here to

◼   ► Apple and to the users is that the the

◼   ► apps that succeed today I think make the

◼   ► iPhone look a bit like a cheap flea

◼   ► market it is not it is not like a high a

◼   ► high fashion or a high quality branding

◼   ► angle that we see now today with like

◼   ► all these you know basically like casino

◼   ► games that isn't there not this is not

◼   ► like a classy great experience for a lot

◼   ► of people and it doesn't it doesn't make

◼   ► Apple's products look good to know that

◼   ► most people are using them most of the

◼   ► time to like you know throw coins into

◼   ► and into a psychologically abusive game

◼   ► that their friends and family made them

◼   ► like obligated to play like I don't know

◼   ► it and you know obviously people you

◼   ► know it's a little bit snobby to me to

◼   ► say because like obviously a lot of

◼   ► people do enjoy these games and are

◼   ► perfectly fine with that and I and I

◼   ► don't want to diminish their enjoyment

◼   ► of those but do you think from Apple's

◼   ► point of view do you think that's really

◼   ► what they want the iPhone to to be in

◼   ► practice like do they do they care and

◼   ► does that really fit the way they want

◼   ► to brand this device I wouldn't think so

◼   ► like I mean this is the funny thing of

◼   ► you know I was in a fan of Apple before

◼   ► I was an Apple developer like I and the

◼   ► thing that I think is so it's like that

◼   ► a fundamental level when I try and think

◼   ► of the things that I associate with

◼   ► Apple and with you know sort of thick

◼   ► they're brand more generally is that

◼   ► there's a certain amount of trying to be

◼   ► more like it's more aspirational in the

◼   ► sense of they're trying to make it

◼   ► better they're not just trying to make

◼   ► like the they're not trying to just make

◼   ► a basic works is sufficient is fine

◼   ► phone like they're trying to make the

◼   ► best of anything and in most of the

◼   ► things that they do that whether or not

◼   ► they hit it or not is a whole other

◼   ► question but you know their goal their

◼   ► mission is to make the best and to have

◼   ► you know when you go into an Apple store

◼   ► that you always come out with a good

◼   ► experience like it's not they're not

◼   ► trying to be mediocre or sufficient

◼   ► they're always trying to be better and

◼   ► if you would apply that kind of mindset

◼   ► to the App Store you

◼   ► imagine you'd end up with a different

◼   ► app store you'd imagine if you know it's

◼   ► like if they're willing to take that

◼   ► risk of you know they don't make the

◼   ► hundreds of different very variations of

◼   ► the iPhone they try and make one that's

◼   ► really really good and is the best and

◼   ► in the same way it's like they rather

◼   ► than trying to have all the different

◼   ► you know it's like you go into an Apple

◼   ► store it doesn't feel like going into

◼   ► Walmart it's like the App Store is much

◼   ► more like going into Walmart or

◼   ► something like that

◼   ► or where you're yeah but it's that kind

◼   ► of a feeling right it's like you go in

◼   ► and you see a charger whatever it's you

◼   ► know some some iPhone accessory on the

◼   ► wall of an Apple store and you expect

◼   ► that that is going to be good Veit you

◼   ► know it meets a certain basic level of

◼   ► criteria and versus if you go into a you

◼   ► know the Walmart er you go into Amazon

◼   ► and you're presented with probably 10

◼   ► times the number of choices you have a

◼   ► much harder to you know decision and

◼   ► you're in a harder position to make that

◼   ► choice because they haven't curated it

◼   ► for you they haven't looked at it and

◼   ► said we think these are the best or

◼   ► these are the ones that you should try

◼   ► and I would hope if they did the same

◼   ► kind of mindset on to the App Store that

◼   ► you could end up with a better

◼   ► experience in a better place like

◼   ► overall and one that would fit I think

◼   ► students like the Apple brand better you

◼   ► know like the Google Play Store I think

◼   ► makes sense for Google like that sort of

◼   ► they're things like we you know we index

◼   ► all the information everywhere like

◼   ► they're sort of mindset around having

◼   ► the store that isn't strongly curated in

◼   ► the same way like it seems like that

◼   ► would be a better fit potentially but an

◼   ► Apple could potentially take the other

◼   ► to take the other extreme and say like

◼   ► you know what this is where we're gonna

◼   ► go and I think that would fit for them

◼   ► and you know ultimately obviously I

◼   ► would like that I think I would - I mean

◼   ► like I was getting on a plane recently

◼   ► and I wanted to download a whole bunch

◼   ► of like new good games and seeing what

◼   ► was actually successful in the top

◼   ► charts and and just trying just trying

◼   ► to find good games for myself to play on

◼   ► the plane like if nothing else the App

◼   ► Store should have tons of good games

◼   ► right but it honestly had a lot of

◼   ► trouble finding any that had any kind of

◼   ► depth whatsoever most of them are like

◼   ► you know really like stupid simple like

◼   ► shallow things that like you play it for

◼   ► 10 seconds like oh that's all it is okay

◼   ► like it was actually really hard to find

◼   ► good stuff I I feel like I feel like we

◼   ► need better stuff in the App Store and

◼   ► we need Apple to

◼   ► to think about how they can how they can

◼   ► get better stuff in there how they can

◼   ► incentivize and sustain the development

◼   ► of better apps not just more apps yeah

◼   ► and I think there's some big problems

◼   ► here around like it's like the old what

◼   ► they caught the broken window problem

◼   ► mm-hmm you know where you have if you're

◼   ► in a neighborhood if you had a house

◼   ► that has you know has derelict and has

◼   ► some broken windows in it like it starts

◼   ► it has it has this different other thing

◼   ► it's like oh it starts to affect things

◼   ► that even aren't just that one house

◼   ► it's like if the bar and the expectation

◼   ► for going to the App Store isn't high

◼   ► enough it's gonna have knock-on effects

◼   ► to lots of other apps and other people

◼   ► like you end up with customers who have

◼   ► different have different expectations

◼   ► they'll look at the App Store and say I

◼   ► you know it's like you're more tense

◼   ► like things like I think about like

◼   ► their discussion last week or about

◼   ► pricing where it's harder in some ways

◼   ► to make a set into to convince someone

◼   ► to have a paid a friend app and to

◼   ► download it and in some of that I could

◼   ► imagine he's coming from a place of a

◼   ► there's a tremendous competition which

◼   ► is I've sort of always it's gonna have a

◼   ► downward pressure on pricing but also

◼   ► like if you don't have good expectations

◼   ► that what you're downloading is going to

◼   ► be good is going to be worth it because

◼   ► you've been burned before like that's

◼   ► going to discourage you from going in

◼   ► going ahead and downloading other apps

◼   ► and paying for them upfront and so you

◼   ► end up with you know more free apps and

◼   ► if your app is free then you have

◼   ► different like you enter this there's

◼   ► kind of vicious cycle because the amount

◼   ► of time that you're able you sort of

◼   ► sort of can justify putting into

◼   ► something if you expect to only be able

◼   ► to make money back from it you know

◼   ► either from consumable and a purchase or

◼   ► even just like if you're just putting it

◼   ► out with ads in it like you're sort of

◼   ► the value of each customer to you and

◼   ► for the the downside of having a

◼   ► customer have a bad experience like it

◼   ► just continues to shrink down in kind of

◼   ► this negative cycle exactly all right

◼   ► well we're out of time today I think

◼   ► we're gonna continue this discussion

◼   ► next week and with maybe some specific

◼   ► suggestions on like how Apple can really

◼   ► make the App Store better specific areas

◼   ► that might be worth experimenting with

◼   ► so thanks a lot for listening

◼   ► we will talk to you next week bye