Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so I am in

◼   ► the process of wrapping up development

◼   ► on my next app you I'm yes yes another

◼   ► one it's it's truly shocking and you

◼   ► know a revelation that I'd be working on

◼   ► a new app but I am and I'm at the point

◼   ► now where the app is mostly finished

◼   ► it's like functionally complete I'm

◼   ► getting ready to start sort of more

◼   ► broad testing and that kind of thing and

◼   ► it's an app that's geared in sort of in

◼   ► the health and fitness area that I've

◼   ► been doing recently to sort of join the

◼   ► ranks of pedometer plus plus and C++

◼   ► this one's about displaying the activity

◼   ► and fitness data collected by Apple

◼   ► watches you know hopefully a more useful

◼   ► way so I've come through like the part

◼   ► that I have a lot of comfort with in

◼   ► terms of sitting down and just building

◼   ► an app like the actual opening Xcode and

◼   ► coding that part I always feel good

◼   ► about but now I'm hitting an interesting

◼   ► a more challenging part of it at least

◼   ► for me that I thought it would be

◼   ► interesting to talk about and that's the

◼   ► process of working out the business

◼   ► model that I'm going to ultimately

◼   ► launch the app with and maybe some

◼   ► people would think that it would be a

◼   ► better idea to have the business model

◼   ► in mind before I make the app but that's

◼   ► just not the way I work I have an idea I

◼   ► start building it a few weeks later I

◼   ► have the app that's just how my process

◼   ► works so now I hit the point that I have

◼   ► to decide what am I going to do with

◼   ► this and you'd think at this point like

◼   ► I've been doing this for long enough and

◼   ► I've launched enough apps that I would

◼   ► just like immediately know what it isn't

◼   ► going to do but I kind of awkward

◼   ► reality as I looked at it and I'm like I

◼   ► don't really know what I want to do for

◼   ► this app like I could make it do do so

◼   ► many different things like the number of

◼   ► options available to app developers

◼   ► these days is kind of wild in terms of

◼   ► it's not just like an older sort of like

◼   ► the old days where it's like you could

◼   ► have a paid app or a free app or like

◼   ► push it free with ads and then like the

◼   ► introduced you know purchase and

◼   ► originally in a purchases were only in

◼   ► paid apps and so you could have like

◼   ► extra what they call like pay mia maps

◼   ► and

◼   ► then they added in a purchase for free

◼   ► apps we can do that now and this

◼   ► recently been a whole big wave of

◼   ► fitness apps being purchased by big

◼   ► companies and so that's even like this

◼   ► other kind of vague not like a business

◼   ► plan but they sort of like a concept of

◼   ► people are making fitness apps and

◼   ► eventually being purchased by bigger

◼   ► companies and making their money that

◼   ► way and so that leaves me in kind of a

◼   ► crazy thing and so I what I wanted to do

◼   ► this week is to sort of think out loud

◼   ► and get your your your thoughts Marco

◼   ► about how to proceed and kind of the

◼   ► considerations and the thoughts that go

◼   ► into this because I imagine anybody who

◼   ► is making an app a product something

◼   ► like that you have to go through this

◼   ► kind of mentality

◼   ► to think you know what's ultimately

◼   ► going to be best for you and the answer

◼   ► is probably different for everybody

◼   ► so thinking you know rather than just

◼   ► giving an answer explaining how I'm

◼   ► going to hopefully end up with an answer

◼   ► is probably more helpful so for me I

◼   ► think that one of the ways to look at

◼   ► this first off is if you have any any

◼   ► previous apps that you've made

◼   ► especially anything you've made in

◼   ► recent years you know since the economy

◼   ► always changes in the App Store any

◼   ► parallels you could draw from other apps

◼   ► of like what might be the best pricing

◼   ► model for like you know a similar app

◼   ► that you've made and how that's done

◼   ► sure and probably the closest have to

◼   ► this is it's really it's out of all my

◼   ► apps it's certainly going to be

◼   ► pedometer plus plus or sleep plus plus

◼   ► which are fitness apps and probably in

◼   ► many ways sleep plus plus is the actual

◼   ► a pedometer plus plus or in the early

◼   ► days have the same thing where like

◼   ► because it's an app that's tied to a

◼   ► particular platform like in when

◼   ► pedometer plus plus launched it was tied

◼   ► to the iPhone 5s and if you didn't have

◼   ► a 5s it was worthless to you and in you

◼   ► asleep plus plus if you don't give an

◼   ► Apple watch it's useless to you and we

◼   ► had this new app if you don't have an

◼   ► Apple watch it's not really gonna be

◼   ► able to show you anything useful so

◼   ► those are probably like the closest to

◼   ► the way I do now and those are both free

◼   ► with ads and an in-app purchase to

◼   ► remove the ads and in the case of

◼   ► pedometer plus plus the in-app purchase

◼   ► is structured as a consumable tip jar

◼   ► type of thing and in sleep us+ it's just

◼   ► like a one-time rake

◼   ► like any net purchase to remove ads with

◼   ► a nice little message saying thank you

◼   ► so much and pedometer plus plus does not

◼   ► have ads at all right it does okay I

◼   ► didn't it didn't initially launch with

◼   ► them initially it just launched with the

◼   ► tip jar but that I introduced ads a

◼   ► while after a while because the tip jar

◼   ► while conceptually I liked from a

◼   ► performance perspective didn't do that

◼   ► as well at least until I added advert

◼   ► ads to it and once I added ads like once

◼   ► there was both the carrot like hey

◼   ► support me this is great and the stick

◼   ► of I'm going to show ads in the app

◼   ► unless you pay like the combination of

◼   ► those two it led to a much more robust

◼   ► adoption of the tip jar and so I had it

◼   ► ads and it's been working much better

◼   ► since then because otherwise I'd find

◼   ► sort of the I launched it or I launched

◼   ► a big update and I'll get this kind of

◼   ► like this little wave of goodwill and

◼   ► then it drops to almost nothing and so

◼   ► that didn't really work in the long run

◼   ► that makes sense so now it seems like

◼   ► the the most logical conclusion then if

◼   ► you say that the new app is most similar

◼   ► to pedometer plus plus and apps like

◼   ► this and the pedometer plus plus and

◼   ► sleep plus plus both have this kind of

◼   ► you know ads with paid options to remove

◼   ► them models and they both work pretty

◼   ► well it seems on the surface that would

◼   ► be the best choice but with I ad

◼   ► shutting down this summer then obviously

◼   ► that there's a wrench into everything

◼   ► right exactly yeah and like I look at

◼   ► this and it's it's more complicated both

◼   ► because of that and also because in a

◼   ► weird way I also want like I kind of

◼   ► want diversity in my in my income stream

◼   ► and so like having everything be the

◼   ► same model sometimes it makes me wonder

◼   ► if that's problematic like if all of my

◼   ► money is coming from ads I mean it's

◼   ► sort of in the same way that like fair

◼   ► enough I can move to another advertising

◼   ► platform but you know if a there was

◼   ► some App Store policy change for example

◼   ► that changed the types of advertising

◼   ► that was that were allowed and it led to

◼   ► you know essentially meant that

◼   ► advertising rates collapsed like if all

◼   ► my income is coming from advertising

◼   ► then it's probably problematic or if the

◼   ► types of ads that are available you know

◼   ► become more and more skeezy and crumby

◼   ► then I can like and if my entire like

◼   ► business is based on that like that's

◼   ► not a great position either and so I end

◼   ► up with this weird thing if it's like

◼   ► there's a lot of things that I could do

◼   ► and when I was taking a step back and

◼   ► thinking in preparing for this episode I

◼   ► kept finally coming back to is it's like

◼   ► ultimately I have to decide and this is

◼   ► like really I think that like you can

◼   ► build and a business models to do what

◼   ► like one of four things you can either

◼   ► like maximize the money that you get now

◼   ► you can maximize the reliability of

◼   ► income you'll get later you can maximize

◼   ► the overall money the app will ever

◼   ► receive in its lifetime or you can try

◼   ► and maximize your user base which one of

◼   ► those things will vary dramatically

◼   ► dependent like will then decide which

◼   ► business model makes most sense for you

◼   ► because okay if I want the most money

◼   ► now well I should probably do like a

◼   ► paid app just like charge money up front

◼   ► hope for a little bit of press when the

◼   ► app launches you know kind of get a big

◼   ► big push have a couple of days with nice

◼   ► big sales and then it'll likely fall off

◼   ► pretty dramatically least that's my

◼   ► experience is that you end up with this

◼   ► very steep drop-off afterwards but you

◼   ► know in that first couple in that first

◼   ► cut in the first week or so you can

◼   ► actually make quite a lot more than you

◼   ► would probably be able to make from any

◼   ► of the other models and so you can make

◼   ► it now and like if I want reliable

◼   ► income something like advertising is

◼   ► great because it's there's no not there

◼   ► isn't kind of like this one time

◼   ► purchase nature to it where people just

◼   ► keep every time they open the app I make

◼   ► you know a fraction of a penny and so

◼   ► the more if people keep using the app

◼   ► there continues to be money coming in

◼   ► like overall revenue is probably going

◼   ► to be some combination of them like

◼   ► where it's like I'm gonna do everything

◼   ► I'm gonna have ads I'm gonna have in-app

◼   ► purchases to remove ads I may have NF

◼   ► purchases to do features like do

◼   ► everything you could possibly do to try

◼   ► and maximize things and then if I wanted

◼   ► to like Matt just maximize the user base

◼   ► well then kind of take the VC model and

◼   ► say you know

◼   ► just make it free like in hope that

◼   ► you'll work something out down the road

◼   ► like if once you have you know hundreds

◼   ► of thousands of customers using the app

◼   ► all the time then hey that's got to be

◼   ► worth something to someone right yeah I

◼   ► mean so I think so you know with

◼   ► overcast I obviously chose the pretty

◼   ► much the latter option but you know

◼   ► pretty much make it free at first I had

◼   ► like you know free with unlock to get

◼   ► all features now it's pretty much

◼   ► everything's free and and you you know

◼   ► you you pay if you feel like it which is

◼   ► almost like everything's free and the

◼   ► reason I did that was because I've

◼   ► wanted to maximize the user base really

◼   ► you know I have I have like political

◼   ► goals with with how I feel about how

◼   ► podcasting apps should and shouldn't be

◼   ► designed and I you know I want to like

◼   ► keep podcasting open and and you know

◼   ► reduce the influence of proprietary

◼   ► gatekeepers and everything and so for me

◼   ► it was important to maximize the user

◼   ► base first and then figure out money

◼   ► with that in mind like you know not

◼   ► necessarily later because I didn't delay

◼   ► making money but just like figure out a

◼   ► way to make money while also giving away

◼   ► as much as possible for free and so you

◼   ► know that that's the model I chose that

◼   ► though you know that was in the context

◼   ► of this entire ecosystem that had these

◼   ► other factors that I was playing to in

◼   ► in your situation here with this app you

◼   ► know with every app certain models will

◼   ► work better than others you know and and

◼   ► it depends so much on what the app is

◼   ► what the competition is how your market

◼   ► timing is you know what you know what

◼   ► the market is itself so something like

◼   ► pedometer plus plus that was that

◼   ► initially a paid app or was it always

◼   ► free upfront it's always free cuz it's

◼   ► because of in especially it was free

◼   ► because it required an iPhone 5s and

◼   ► there was no way that I could require

◼   ► you to have one before you purchased it

◼   ► and so I made it free because I was

◼   ► afraid that there would be lots of

◼   ► people who would pay for it and then

◼   ► immediately discover that it's worthless

◼   ► and go and get a refund or leave a

◼   ► one-star review and so it just never

◼   ► seemed like paid would be a viable

◼   ► option right and so therefore the same

◼   ► thing applies to this then because this

◼   ► requires an Apple watch so you know it's

◼   ► or what does it officially require it

◼   ► isn't you know basically it basically

◼   ► requires it right it basically record

◼   ► everybody it would be fairly useless

◼   ► that one right exactly so it seems like

◼   ► paid is right out the window which is

◼   ► unfortunate because actually something

◼   ► like this where you're saying like you

◼   ► know it's taking advantage of something

◼   ► new it's something that is a that is a

◼   ► small market there's probably going to

◼   ► be very little competition out there at

◼   ► least at first so that kind of condition

◼   ► usually is a really good fit for paid

◼   ► where you have people who are going to

◼   ► be motivated to get it and very little

◼   ► competition really and and especially it

◼   ► being new well that combination usually

◼   ► means go paid upfront because you kind

◼   ► of have to be free up front because we

◼   ► don't have real trials this would be a

◼   ► man this would be a great case for a

◼   ► trial but but those don't exist so

◼   ► instead you have to be free somewhat so

◼   ► the only question now is whether you

◼   ► lock some features whether you use ads

◼   ► or whether you just don't think about

◼   ► money with this app and use it for other

◼   ► purposes like promoting your other stuff

◼   ► or giving back to the world or whatever

◼   ► so going through those one by one I

◼   ► guess free with unlock is tricky certain

◼   ► apps there just really isn't a good

◼   ► place to put that locking barrier so

◼   ► like one of the examples I know I think

◼   ► James Thompson talked about this a while

◼   ► ago with P calc is you know where do you

◼   ► if you have a calculator that you want

◼   ► to be free upfront with a paid app

◼   ► purchase to unlock something what do you

◼   ► unlock like the nine button like it's

◼   ► it's hard it's like certain apps are

◼   ► just hard to figure out where to place

◼   ► that barrier in a way that the app isn't

◼   ► totally useless without it but that

◼   ► enough people will hit that barrier and

◼   ► be motivated to pay and certain apps the

◼   ► answer is just this doesn't fit well and

◼   ► there isn't a good place for it and

◼   ► certain apps you know there are plenty

◼   ► of places for it and the question is

◼   ► where do you put it and so in this case

◼   ► do you think there's a good spot to have

◼   ► a paid unlock like there's a good

◼   ► feature or set of features or limit that

◼   ► can be removed where enough people will

◼   ► hit that and want to pay but they won't

◼   ► hate you because it's so annoying every

◼   ► time they hit it the only one that comes

◼   ► to mind for an app like this is to do

◼   ► with some type of kind of artificial

◼   ► limit

◼   ► the amount of data that it will display

◼   ► so you'd have something you know it's

◼   ► sort of like being the same with like

◼   ► pedometer plus balls like it shows you

◼   ► historical data it would be like you can

◼   ► only see the current week unlock to see

◼   ► all kind of a thing

◼   ► is the only thing that I could sort of

◼   ► see because partitioning the feature set

◼   ► or the functionality in other ways like

◼   ► it feels so contrived like feels much

◼   ► more like the yeah like you don't use

◼   ► like you can do multiplication but you

◼   ► can't do division like that right

◼   ► exactly

◼   ► it completely kind of removes the point

◼   ► of the app if you start partitioning the

◼   ► features and so the only way I could

◼   ► ever really I could have a kind of

◼   ► imagine is to say like hey I'm only

◼   ► going to show you this amount of data

◼   ► you know if you scroll beyond that

◼   ► there'll be a little box that says hey

◼   ► would you like to see the rest of your

◼   ► data you know I'm holding it hostage for

◼   ► $2 at the bottom

◼   ► yeah and that's that's so tricky to do

◼   ► while also balancing like the users will

◼   ► to pay you because it's so easy to just

◼   ► appear really stingy or annoying or

◼   ► cheap with what you give them for free

◼   ► and what you don't and if they don't

◼   ► feel good about your app they usually

◼   ► won't pay to get past that barrier some

◼   ► people still will and they will hate you

◼   ► for it I've done that before with some

◼   ► apps like sometimes for like I really

◼   ► needed it to get my job done and they

◼   ► offered a free trial and I kept hitting

◼   ► walls and I just eventually I did pay in

◼   ► a lot of these cases and I but I just

◼   ► felt terrible I felt like I hated them

◼   ► for it and that kind of soured me on the

◼   ► whole company and on you know like their

◼   ► future products or my experience with

◼   ► the app or my willingness to recommend

◼   ► it to others so it's always a hard

◼   ► balance when you whenever you have these

◼   ► barriers but that being said if you have

◼   ► an app where a barrier like this makes

◼   ► sense and where you where you can find a

◼   ► good place for it and you implement that

◼   ► well it usually is a really good way to

◼   ► make a reasonable living like it you can

◼   ► usually get decent income that way

◼   ► without a lot of the problems of things

◼   ► like ads or paid upfront so usually that

◼   ► that is great when it works but it is

◼   ► really hard to make it work yeah and I

◼   ► think one thing that I always struggle

◼   ► with and I'm trying to think of this

◼   ► it's like

◼   ► it's what am i communicating to my

◼   ► customer because like the hardest part I

◼   ► think like that you have to get over and

◼   ► a little bit I think you're alluding to

◼   ► it for like it makes you feel bad is

◼   ► when you say like this part of the app

◼   ► is free like the the initial part like

◼   ► in typically it's like the core part

◼   ► like the main purpose of the app is free

◼   ► and then there's these extra things that

◼   ► are are like cost more like the weird

◼   ► thing that you have to keep in mind is

◼   ► in some ways what you're communicating

◼   ► to your customer is like the core part

◼   ► of the app is free or in some ways you

◼   ► could like it's not a great word but

◼   ► it's more helpful for this analogy it's

◼   ► like this part of the app is worthless

◼   ► and this other part somehow I'm saying

◼   ► is worth full but if you look at those

◼   ► as a customer

◼   ► they may look functionally identical

◼   ► right it's you're saying like if you

◼   ► know the ability to do this XY and Z

◼   ► shouldn't cost you anything and I'm

◼   ► telling you that it shouldn't cost you

◼   ► anything to do these things because I

◼   ► just gave you an app that you downloaded

◼   ► for free that does those things so I've

◼   ► communicated to you this is worthless

◼   ► but you know but this other thing

◼   ► that is essentially probably very

◼   ► similar to the other thing and is in

◼   ► many ways a contrived barrier like

◼   ► somehow it should be valuable and like

◼   ► there's a dissonance there that I feel

◼   ► like is is where it gets really hard

◼   ► like you can only really make the case

◼   ► for unlocking something when the thing

◼   ► that you're paying is like paying for

◼   ► feels different and like completely

◼   ► orthogonal to the thing that you the

◼   ► core part of the thing that you gave

◼   ► away for free you know so often you'll

◼   ► have something where there's a physical

◼   ► cost associated with it like you're

◼   ► paying for storage or for a sink you

◼   ► know to access sink or something where

◼   ► it's not the thing that I gave you for

◼   ► free just you know like I it's something

◼   ► totally different in a team's of a

◼   ► tangible way because when you do that I

◼   ► think maybe that's where you can get

◼   ► around that feeling of like I feel bad

◼   ► about this because I feel like they're

◼   ► just kind of you know like being cheap

◼   ► by you know creating this artificial

◼   ► limit

◼   ► it's tough too because when you put up a

◼   ► limit like that people who will hit it

◼   ► and they will they will try to

◼   ► rationalize not going past it so though

◼   ► if you put up a limit and you say well

◼   ► you can only see the last week of data

◼   ► or whatever you know whatever limit you

◼   ► put up yeah people are gonna hit that

◼   ► and they're first going to think well I

◼   ► guess I don't need that right like

◼   ► they're gonna try to convince themselves

◼   ► they don't need that because they don't

◼   ► really want to pay so we're gonna try to

◼   ► say well you know what I can get along

◼   ► fine without that and even if they would

◼   ► enjoy the app more with that even if

◼   ► they would get their $2.00 or whatever

◼   ► worth of enjoyment or value out of

◼   ► having gone past that barrier they will

◼   ► try very hard to convince themselves

◼   ► even if it's subconscious not to go past

◼   ► that barrier and so you'll have so many

◼   ► people who really could use the app who

◼   ► really could enjoy it a lot more if they

◼   ► would pay the two bucks but who have

◼   ► convinced themselves they don't need to

◼   ► because they would rather not and and

◼   ► like that's the issue I favor the

◼   ► overcast that's one of the reasons I

◼   ► want patron eggs eventually it's just

◼   ► very hard but I don't know and then we

◼   ► have we have a lot more better options

◼   ► or different options at least including

◼   ► ads but let's read an ad first because

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◼   ► so there's also ad supported apps to me

◼   ► like it sounds like it'd be a decent

◼   ► idea because it sounds like you get

◼   ► money for when the app is being used and

◼   ► no one has to decide whether to pay you

◼   ► or not because the ad is paying you

◼   ► automatically effectively if they use

◼   ► the app and they can maybe pay to remove

◼   ► it or something that's you know that's a

◼   ► separate discussion which I'm sure we'll

◼   ► have but at the heart of it you kind of

◼   ► automatically just get money slowly with

◼   ► usage of course there's downsides in

◼   ► practice things like you know privacy

◼   ► concerns annoyance concerns image

◼   ► concerns what do you think about after

◼   ► that yeah it's a it's an uncomfortable

◼   ► it's like it's like if you may have

◼   ► noticed that was an uncomfortable intake

◼   ► of breath yeah because I don't read I

◼   ► don't like using apps that have ads in

◼   ► them but I make a substantial amount of

◼   ► my revenue from ads and like there's a

◼   ► little bit of cognitive dissidence about

◼   ► that like it's like the ultimately the

◼   ► pragmatic part of like this is the

◼   ► practical way to make revenue but the

◼   ► reality is I never really like I don't

◼   ► my app is never made better by having an

◼   ► ad in it like it's not like oh wow well

◼   ► it's like people will love it when they

◼   ► can see ads for other you know for for a

◼   ► game of war or clash of clans or

◼   ► whatever like the like the latest

◼   ► creative play game is like which is

◼   ► essentially what most online ads seem or

◼   ► mobile ads seems to be these days

◼   ► therefore like I don't know those games

◼   ► or they're for a big brand like audible

◼   ► or Google or something like that

◼   ► and so putting those into my apps like

◼   ► always feels a little bit's not great

◼   ► but the reality is like like you said

◼   ► like it works well and I like

◼   ► conceptually the fact that I'm getting

◼   ► paid for use in a way that like it's a

◼   ► really nice virtuous cycle like I want

◼   ► to make an app that's really engaging

◼   ► and you wanna you know you want to keep

◼   ► opening up and looking at you know from

◼   ► showing you you know health and fitness

◼   ► data like hopefully it's motivating

◼   ► hopefully it's something that you want

◼   ► to go and check on a regular basis and

◼   ► so aligning a business model with that

◼   ► where it is something that the more you

◼   ► use it the more money I make like is

◼   ► great and in some ways it reminds me

◼   ► think of the way that like I almost kind

◼   ► of wish that there were was a mechanism

◼   ► kind of like quote musicians have with

◼   ► streaming services oh you don't want

◼   ► that conceptually I do I don't

◼   ► necessarily like it breaks down in

◼   ► certain ways obviously like all these

◼   ► things do but like conceptually you just

◼   ► add a bunch of zeros to the number

◼   ► basically then we want that version of

◼   ► it that version that version B so is so

◼   ► great right for the conceptually like

◼   ► every time someone listens to the song

◼   ► they get a bit of money and like if

◼   ► every time someone opens my app I got a

◼   ► bit of money that would be great

◼   ► like if the if such a thing sort of

◼   ► existed like if there was like a breath

◼   ► and Apple music there was like Apple app

◼   ► and people paid a certain amount of

◼   ► money and it was distributed around

◼   ► people based on what they used or

◼   ► something right like you could imagine a

◼   ► system that would sort of work in that

◼   ► way like it's hugely problematic and I'm

◼   ► not really advocating for that but like

◼   ► conceptually a version it would be like

◼   ► the business model that adds create but

◼   ► without the potential for kind of like

◼   ► not desirable aesthetics in my apps so

◼   ► like that would be great that doesn't

◼   ► exist and so you end up with ads and you

◼   ► ultimately I like I end up like most

◼   ► likely than not that's ultimately what

◼   ► I'll probably have to do is I look at

◼   ► and it's like you know if I have ads in

◼   ► this app I will if it's successful if

◼   ► it's just downloaded wildly then I will

◼   ► likely you know make a reasonable amount

◼   ► of semi reliable income from it

◼   ► and if P if it's sticky and people

◼   ► really like it and keep coming back to

◼   ► it like my revenue will continue to if

◼   ► not grow at least to stay stable in long

◼   ► term which is great like see our episode

◼   ► about work-life balance that we just did

◼   ► where I talked about like the more you

◼   ► can make your income kind of like

◼   ► passive and not related to what you're

◼   ► doing like the better and so ads are

◼   ► great for that because it's all based on

◼   ► work you've done in the past like

◼   ► continuing to pay you in the future I

◼   ► just wish it didn't make me feel so kind

◼   ► of like mmm whenever I do it yeah and it

◼   ► seemed like with ads like you could do

◼   ► something crazy like direct sales of ads

◼   ► but that's a lot of work it's the best

◼   ► for like privacy maximization really and

◼   ► it might be the classiest but that's a

◼   ► ton of work and as you go like kind of

◼   ► down the rabbit hole I'm like well I

◼   ► could join a network and then you know a

◼   ► small app network if that existed which

◼   ► I don't even know if it does but you

◼   ► know assuming that existed up then then

◼   ► we pool resources selling ads is a

◼   ► little bit easier I've maybe I don't

◼   ► have to do it anymore or I can I can you

◼   ► know share a salesperson with somebody

◼   ► else and as you get further down it's

◼   ► like well all these things are a lot of

◼   ► work until you get down to the well I

◼   ► can just plug in a module from a big ad

◼   ► provider where I might not have even

◼   ► beat I might not have even dealt with a

◼   ► human at all to be part of this thing

◼   ► you're getting who knows what ads from

◼   ► who knows where and they're doing who

◼   ► knows what with your customers private

◼   ► privacy and data but that's also the

◼   ► easiest for you I like that and so like

◼   ► with ads you like the the incentives are

◼   ► all towards getting creepier and

◼   ► creepier because the the easiest ways to

◼   ► get into ads and the most accessible

◼   ► ways against ads happen to also be the

◼   ► worst about privacy and customer data in

◼   ► most cases whereas you know anything

◼   ► better than that tends to take more work

◼   ► than most people can really devote to it

◼   ► exactly and that guy in my first ever

◼   ► foray into ads I did actually sell them

◼   ► direct like this was like way back early

◼   ► days of the app store because like ad

◼   ► networks didn't exist and like I would

◼   ► sell ads to you typically was to other

◼   ► app developers at very small very small

◼   ► amounts of money but it's like that was

◼   ► the best you could do back then but now

◼   ► yeah like you would just you install

◼   ► I add for the next couple of months or

◼   ► you know AdMob from Google or any of the

◼   ► million things like see our previous

◼   ► episode about ads where there's like so

◼   ► many networks and all kinds of things

◼   ► and you just kind of put it in and like

◼   ► in theory like and then money will start

◼   ► flowing and like that's great it's like

◼   ► in some ways this is an area though with

◼   ► like some you know the last version of

◼   ► like business model that I probably

◼   ► doesn't really fit from what I do but is

◼   ► interesting nevertheless is I am kind of

◼   ► envious of venture funded companies in

◼   ► this regard because they don't have a

◼   ► business model like they don't need well

◼   ► they have a different business model

◼   ► therapist this model is get really huge

◼   ► and worry about it later even though

◼   ► that usually means probably get bought

◼   ► before we have to worry about it exactly

◼   ► which is a business model it's just

◼   ► different for what we do yeah and like I

◼   ► look at that and I'm like in some ways

◼   ► that's actually kind of cool like to be

◼   ► able to just say like you know what I'm

◼   ► just gonna focus on making something

◼   ► cool and getting as many people as I can

◼   ► to use it and I don't need to worry

◼   ► about the financial part of that and in

◼   ► some ways like that's kind of

◼   ► interesting like I've definitely had the

◼   ► thought for some something like this of

◼   ► saying like you know what if I just went

◼   ► to like took that tack and like hope you

◼   ► know it's like MyFitnessPal got bought

◼   ► by Under Armour RunKeeper got bought by

◼   ► a6 like at some point is good COO you

◼   ► know if I was able to make some make a

◼   ► like a wildly successful health and

◼   ► fitness app that could it be picked up

◼   ► by some other company for you know it's

◼   ► probably in some ways more money than I

◼   ► could ever make from you know running

◼   ► AdMob ads in an application like that

◼   ► sounds kind of interesting it's like the

◼   ► risk dynamic on that just like goes

◼   ► through the roof where it's like or I

◼   ► could end up with having made this cool

◼   ► thing that ends up making me no money

◼   ► ever and that's kind of terrifying as

◼   ► well yeah all right well what do you

◼   ► think you're gonna do I have um have you

◼   ► come to any conclusions or you still

◼   ► gotta think about it I'm still gonna

◼   ► think about it I'm probably gonna do at

◼   ► like I think my default is gonna be ads

◼   ► like I don't think paid works

◼   ► I don't think unlocking features really

◼   ► works like I don't like the thought of

◼   ► right and to clarify it really works for

◼   ► this app on both exactly the whole point

◼   ► of this discussion is like whether it

◼   ► works in this particular case and like

◼   ► the reason we're going through it step

◼   ► by step

◼   ► that every app is different this is why

◼   ► this may or may not make sense for this

◼   ► app ads are like the easy thing I don't

◼   ► feel great about them but I think they

◼   ► are sort of like the obvious and

◼   ► straightforward choice I'll most

◼   ► certainly have an option to remove the

◼   ► ads I'm just in terms of that's often

◼   ► just it makes me feel better maybe it's

◼   ► like it's just like cleansing my

◼   ► conscience a little bit about not having

◼   ► ads to say like so you know like if you

◼   ► don't like them that's fine then it's

◼   ► just a paid app and you can give me

◼   ► money and we'll go away and if I'm

◼   ► feeling particularly daring or a little

◼   ► bit reckless in wild then maybe I just

◼   ► make it free but being a one-person shop

◼   ► who pays my mortgage with the revenue

◼   ► from my apps not having any revenue does

◼   ► not seem particularly wise yeah all

◼   ► right well that's all the time we have

◼   ► for today thanks a lot to our sponsor

◼   ► hover and we will talk to everybody next

◼   ► week bye