Under the Radar

00:00:00 ◼   ► welcome to under the radar show about

00:00:02 ◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

00:00:04 ◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

00:00:07 ◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

00:00:08 ◼   ► minutes so let's get started so this

00:00:10 ◼   ► week we're going to talk a little bit

00:00:11 ◼   ► about I add an ad driven app revenue

00:00:14 ◼   ► models because there's some news this

00:00:17 ◼   ► past week that I ad was shutting down

00:00:21 ◼   ► part of its offerings and the it's

00:00:24 ◼   ► showing on what's called the app Network

00:00:25 ◼   ► and a lot of people it was very

00:00:27 ◼   ► confusing message and a lot of people

00:00:28 ◼   ► kind of thought this was shutting down

00:00:29 ◼   ► all of AI ad and it's kind of confusing

00:00:32 ◼   ► as to what parts of I add are left and

00:00:34 ◼   ► and David's you know since you have a

00:00:36 ◼   ► lot of experience with AD funded apps I

00:00:39 ◼   ► and and I think most most developers who

00:00:42 ◼   ► most people hear from in podcasts and

00:00:45 ◼   ► stuff don't have a lot of experience I'm

00:00:47 ◼   ► you know most developers who in podcast

00:00:48 ◼   ► and who have blogs and stuff are trying

00:00:50 ◼   ► to sell paid apps or at least free apps

00:00:52 ◼   ► with paid and net purchases and I I

00:00:54 ◼   ► don't hear a lot of discussion from

00:00:56 ◼   ► people who have much or any experience

00:00:59 ◼   ► especially significant experience with

00:01:02 ◼   ► app driven or with AD driven revenue

00:01:05 ◼   ► models and apps and and you do so I love

00:01:08 ◼   ► to hear a lot from you on this with your

00:01:10 ◼   ► experiences and your thoughts around you

00:01:13 ◼   ► know what's going on with ads what what

00:01:16 ◼   ► kind of led to this point what the

00:01:18 ◼   ► reality is of AD funded app development

00:01:21 ◼   ► today and then what this what this

00:01:23 ◼   ► announcement really means and what it

00:01:25 ◼   ► might mean for you so but I definitely

00:01:27 ◼   ► wanted to dive into a little bit at

00:01:28 ◼   ► first like the background of where I'm

00:01:30 ◼   ► coming from with ads and so like

00:01:32 ◼   ► whenever I think about revenue for an

00:01:34 ◼   ► application the first thing obviously is

00:01:35 ◼   ► like you think about well how am I going

00:01:37 ◼   ► to make money and you can really make us

00:01:39 ◼   ► make money in three main ways like you

00:01:41 ◼   ► can have an ongoing payment from

00:01:43 ◼   ► somebody you know something like a

00:01:44 ◼   ► subscription you can get a one-time

00:01:46 ◼   ► payment from your youth from your

00:01:48 ◼   ► customer where yunus which is the

00:01:50 ◼   ► typical sort of like paid upfront model

00:01:51 ◼   ► and then you'd have something where you

00:01:54 ◼   ► get no payment from your customer and so

00:01:56 ◼   ► you're either than relying on

00:01:57 ◼   ► advertising where someone else is paying

00:01:59 ◼   ► you for that customer to use your

00:02:01 ◼   ► application or you have just no revenue

00:02:04 ◼   ► at all in which case you're probably you

00:02:05 ◼   ► know you're going for some kind of

00:02:06 ◼   ► market share play or something where

00:02:09 ◼   ► direct revenue isn't important to you

00:02:12 ◼   ► and so why would you end up using

00:02:14 ◼   ► advertising it's an application that's

00:02:15 ◼   ► gonna have a lot of people and the

00:02:18 ◼   ► majority of which who don't want to

00:02:19 ◼   ► actually pay to use your application

00:02:21 ◼   ► with money which is a lot of

00:02:23 ◼   ► applications especially in the iOS App

00:02:25 ◼   ► Store and so I've used advertising in

00:02:29 ◼   ► almost all of my app or it for almost

00:02:31 ◼   ► the entire like length of my history of

00:02:33 ◼   ► being an app developer for I one of my

00:02:36 ◼   ► earliest apps I even originally built my

00:02:39 ◼   ► own app Network and like we're just

00:02:40 ◼   ► trying to do direct sales for it and

00:02:42 ◼   ► that didn't really work in scale and so

00:02:43 ◼   ► I pretty quickly moved to I think back

00:02:45 ◼   ► then this was probably in 2009 ish it

00:02:50 ◼   ► was probably AdMob I think was the big

00:02:51 ◼   ► one back then then at you know I ad was

00:02:55 ◼   ► introduced in 2010 and so I jumped on to

00:02:59 ◼   ► using that as quickly as I could and I

00:03:02 ◼   ► had always did pretty well for me you

00:03:03 ◼   ► know so apples it was apples platform it

00:03:05 ◼   ► was nice and integrated into the

00:03:07 ◼   ► platform and it did well you know I go

00:03:09 ◼   ► it's got pretty good fill rates like

00:03:11 ◼   ► which is the amount of times that I ask

00:03:12 ◼   ► for an ad that actually get one back for

00:03:15 ◼   ► me it was usually like three quarters to

00:03:16 ◼   ► almost like 98 percent I think often for

00:03:19 ◼   ► fill rates I had pretty quality ads good

00:03:21 ◼   ► revenue and I was overall generally

00:03:24 ◼   ► pretty happy with it like over time

00:03:26 ◼   ► there the quality of I ad is certainly

00:03:29 ◼   ► changed but I think it's probably more

00:03:30 ◼   ► in some ways a reflection on how the

00:03:33 ◼   ► store has changed in you know since like

00:03:35 ◼   ► 2010 we're now a lot of the ads are just

00:03:38 ◼   ► for you know sort of like the candy

00:03:41 ◼   ► crush a game of war kind of games where

00:03:46 ◼   ► the it's all about trying to drive

00:03:47 ◼   ► downloads for apps that are you know

00:03:50 ◼   ► then use you know purchased to you know

00:03:52 ◼   ► sort of to get revenue from people and

00:03:54 ◼   ► so that's where most of my ads are for

00:03:55 ◼   ► which means you know they're not it's

00:03:57 ◼   ► not great they're not awesome things but

00:03:59 ◼   ► at this point like perhaps or

00:04:02 ◼   ► advertising probably makes somewhere

00:04:04 ◼   ► between 40 to 45 percent of the revenue

00:04:06 ◼   ► I get and it's definitely like the

00:04:08 ◼   ► biggest source of revenue from my most

00:04:10 ◼   ► important apps to me and so that's kind

00:04:13 ◼   ► of a weird place to find myself now that

00:04:15 ◼   ► I find that I add is going to be

00:04:18 ◼   ► shutting down or closing or doing

00:04:20 ◼   ► something dramatic

00:04:22 ◼   ► in the next couple of and if I think by

00:04:24 ◼   ► June or so it'll be changing and I don't

00:04:26 ◼   ► think we know exactly what it's going to

00:04:28 ◼   ► look like after that but it's definitely

00:04:29 ◼   ► going to be different so III know that

00:04:33 ◼   ► you know you talk about you talk about

00:04:34 ◼   ► the fill rate and I've heard various

00:04:35 ◼   ► things I've heard from people who aren't

00:04:36 ◼   ► happy with I adds fill rate I've heard

00:04:38 ◼   ► it is it getting worse over time um it

00:04:41 ◼   ► varies and so this is one of those funny

00:04:42 ◼   ► things with advertising like I've heard

00:04:44 ◼   ► from some people who get like because

00:04:46 ◼   ► it's all based the adverts did the ants

00:04:47 ◼   ► that you get are always going to be

00:04:48 ◼   ► based on the demographics of the people

00:04:51 ◼   ► who you use your app and how they use it

00:04:54 ◼   ► and some kind of you know secret

00:04:56 ◼   ► algorithm that is trying to pair people

00:04:58 ◼   ► up and so for my apps for like

00:05:00 ◼   ► audiobooks and pedometer plus plus I've

00:05:02 ◼   ► usually had pretty good fill rates um I

00:05:04 ◼   ► wouldn't say they've gone down over time

00:05:05 ◼   ► maybe there's some of the rates have

00:05:07 ◼   ► gone down over time but those are even

00:05:09 ◼   ► really hard to track because they're so

00:05:10 ◼   ► cyclical like every January first my

00:05:14 ◼   ► like advertising rates drop by at least

00:05:17 ◼   ► a half because everyone's advertising

00:05:19 ◼   ► budgets you know we're sort of all spent

00:05:21 ◼   ► up until then and no one buys ads at

00:05:23 ◼   ► first like the first couple weeks of

00:05:25 ◼   ► January and so things like cycle

00:05:27 ◼   ► dramatically but like I would say I had

00:05:29 ◼   ► is it's it's maybe it's gotten done down

00:05:32 ◼   ► slightly I think overall in the

00:05:34 ◼   ► advertising market I think in a lot of

00:05:36 ◼   ► ways things are going down and the weird

00:05:39 ◼   ► thing did you then start having to like

00:05:40 ◼   ► balance those like what kind of ads are

00:05:42 ◼   ► you even talking about like most of my

00:05:44 ◼   ► apps only do banner ads you can also do

00:05:46 ◼   ► interstitials and all kind of and sort

00:05:49 ◼   ► of more aggressive forms of advertising

00:05:51 ◼   ► that completely take over the

00:05:52 ◼   ► application until you watch a 30-second

00:05:54 ◼   ► video or those types of things well

00:05:56 ◼   ► which obviously get better and better

00:05:57 ◼   ► rates accordingly right but of course

00:06:00 ◼   ► annoy people more and more yeah I mean

00:06:03 ◼   ► that's always a tricky balance with

00:06:04 ◼   ► advertising is like what works is being

00:06:07 ◼   ► more intrusive and more annoying and and

00:06:10 ◼   ► like you can there are things that work

00:06:12 ◼   ► that aren't intrusive and annoying that

00:06:14 ◼   ► there's always this constant tension

00:06:15 ◼   ► there's pressure to you know make a

00:06:17 ◼   ► little bit more or to combat some other

00:06:20 ◼   ► kind of downturn by just making things a

00:06:22 ◼   ► little bit more annoying or a little bit

00:06:23 ◼   ► more creepy and you know data privacy

00:06:25 ◼   ► issues or things like that there's

00:06:26 ◼   ► always these pressures and a lot of

00:06:28 ◼   ► times people have to cave to those

00:06:31 ◼   ► things in order to even survive to have

00:06:33 ◼   ► their business to survive it's it's a

00:06:34 ◼   ► very

00:06:35 ◼   ► tricky balance and in some areas like in

00:06:37 ◼   ► podcasting right now we are lucky that

00:06:40 ◼   ► podcast advertising right now is still

00:06:42 ◼   ► very high quality and and that you know

00:06:44 ◼   ► we're able to command great rates and

00:06:45 ◼   ► have ads that aren't too annoying at

00:06:47 ◼   ► because of the nature of the medium and

00:06:49 ◼   ► the market conditions right now but apps

00:06:51 ◼   ► I think are similar to the web in in

00:06:54 ◼   ► that it's very very hard to get great ad

00:06:57 ◼   ► rates for in-app ads I mean it have you

00:07:00 ◼   ► found that to either to the case yeah I

00:07:03 ◼   ► think so I mean it's every I set up say

00:07:05 ◼   ► I'm so making almost half of my revenue

00:07:07 ◼   ► from them so I mean there is money to be

00:07:09 ◼   ► made there but yeah it's the volumes you

00:07:12 ◼   ► need to make a living doing it is pretty

00:07:15 ◼   ► substantial this may be the better way

00:07:17 ◼   ► to look at it in much the same ways like

00:07:19 ◼   ► with the web or something where like you

00:07:21 ◼   ► say with a podcast like the number of

00:07:22 ◼   ► listeners you have to have before you

00:07:24 ◼   ► can have you know it's not a substantial

00:07:27 ◼   ► revenue coming from a podcast is

00:07:29 ◼   ► dramatically less than the number of

00:07:32 ◼   ► users you need for an out you know for

00:07:34 ◼   ► an application to have any kind of any

00:07:35 ◼   ► kind of sort of real tangible revenue

00:07:37 ◼   ► you're talking about probably you know

00:07:40 ◼   ► tens if not hundreds of thousands of

00:07:42 ◼   ► users a day of your application before

00:07:44 ◼   ► you're going to be getting into that

00:07:45 ◼   ► into into something that you could

00:07:47 ◼   ► really like make a run at which is and

00:07:50 ◼   ► they have to keep doing it all the time

00:07:51 ◼   ► being in some ways it's nice because

00:07:53 ◼   ► advertising is based on people using

00:07:56 ◼   ► your application and so it's nicely in

00:07:57 ◼   ► some ways it's nice I've always said I

00:07:59 ◼   ► like that it aligns my people using the

00:08:02 ◼   ► application with the revenue I get so if

00:08:05 ◼   ► I engage people more if I make people

00:08:07 ◼   ► really like the app and come back to it

00:08:08 ◼   ► time and time again my revenue goes up

00:08:11 ◼   ► which is nice but it still always

00:08:14 ◼   ► creates all these weird tensions for

00:08:15 ◼   ► like well what if there was another way

00:08:17 ◼   ► that I could get people back into the

00:08:18 ◼   ► application what if I sent them a push

00:08:20 ◼   ► notification it said hey you know how

00:08:23 ◼   ► you haven't checked your steps in a

00:08:25 ◼   ► while maybe you should you've earned the

00:08:26 ◼   ► new step bomb yeah like there's so many

00:08:29 ◼   ► things that you start to get into that

00:08:31 ◼   ► get cross all kinds of lines that like

00:08:35 ◼   ► it's a really it forces you to really be

00:08:38 ◼   ► thoughtful in a way that isn't is a bit

00:08:40 ◼   ► weird like sometimes I like just the

00:08:42 ◼   ► paid app that's the paid model which is

00:08:44 ◼   ► nice because it's simple like in some

00:08:46 ◼   ► ways I can just be lazy about it and be

00:08:48 ◼   ► like well thank you

00:08:49 ◼   ► money I gave them app like that's great

00:08:51 ◼   ► that's nice and simple versus all having

00:08:53 ◼   ► to really think about like does this

00:08:55 ◼   ► cross the line is this like too

00:08:57 ◼   ► is this too aggressive is this too

00:09:00 ◼   ► annoying is this going to like work in a

00:09:04 ◼   ► way that is going to ruin my reputation

00:09:06 ◼   ► but like you could make me more money

00:09:08 ◼   ► but really make the app not so good to

00:09:11 ◼   ► use like it's some really hard questions

00:09:13 ◼   ► that things like advertising force you

00:09:15 ◼   ► dad to face up to well and I think you

00:09:18 ◼   ► know among like the the kind of like

00:09:20 ◼   ► Apple enthusiast community I think ads

00:09:22 ◼   ► and apps are taboo that I you know you

00:09:24 ◼   ► don't see people like Panik making apps

00:09:27 ◼   ► with ads in them like the idea of the of

00:09:29 ◼   ► like the the the high-end in the kind of

00:09:32 ◼   ► craft app scene almost nobody in that

00:09:35 ◼   ► scene uses ads

00:09:37 ◼   ► in any apps that people have actually

00:09:38 ◼   ► heard of and used like some people will

00:09:40 ◼   ► have like a secret app on the side you

00:09:42 ◼   ► know that like like like I've heard like

00:09:44 ◼   ► it like David Barnard a tap cubby always

00:09:45 ◼   ► talked about he has he has mirror app

00:09:47 ◼   ► and that his you know that's like we're

00:09:49 ◼   ► where he experiments with with revenue

00:09:51 ◼   ► model stuff and they have ads and that

00:09:52 ◼   ► that's fine but like you know you like

00:09:54 ◼   ► you don't see like tweet bought five

00:09:56 ◼   ► free with ads or pay to unlock them but

00:09:59 ◼   ► that's you hardly ever see ads in that

00:10:01 ◼   ► in that kind of like high-end app

00:10:03 ◼   ► development community and I think

00:10:05 ◼   ► ultimately I think that's temporary I

00:10:08 ◼   ► think we will get to a point where ads

00:10:10 ◼   ► start moving in just because the other

00:10:12 ◼   ► revenue models are getting so much

00:10:14 ◼   ► harder you know because I just like it

00:10:15 ◼   ► is that's a really good point that like

00:10:17 ◼   ► it does make sense for apps that are

00:10:20 ◼   ► used frequently like you know if you

00:10:23 ◼   ► have some kind of like quick utility app

00:10:25 ◼   ► that is hardly ever used that look the

00:10:27 ◼   ► kind of thing you keep on your phone for

00:10:29 ◼   ► occasional use or maybe if you're

00:10:31 ◼   ► traveling mean them something like that

00:10:33 ◼   ► or maybe it's like a special kind of

00:10:35 ◼   ► like unit converter that you only need

00:10:37 ◼   ► four times a year but you're really glad

00:10:39 ◼   ► it's there in those kind of instances ad

00:10:41 ◼   ► funded apps probably don't make a lot of

00:10:42 ◼   ► sense but if it's something like the

00:10:46 ◼   ► like a newsreader where you're going

00:10:48 ◼   ► into that every single day you know like

00:10:50 ◼   ► then then and spending meaningful time

00:10:51 ◼   ► in it then I think that makes a lot of

00:10:53 ◼   ► sense and that actually have you found

00:10:56 ◼   ► like is it possible for ads in in

00:10:59 ◼   ► frequently used apps in a high pressure

00:11:02 ◼   ► in an environment where there's a lot of

00:11:05 ◼   ► pressure to keep the upfront price down

00:11:06 ◼   ► like the a store might ads make more

00:11:09 ◼   ► money for like daily use apps than a

00:11:13 ◼   ► paid upfront model code I think probably

00:11:15 ◼   ► I mean I think that's an analyst II

00:11:17 ◼   ► that's why I do like why I have ads and

00:11:21 ◼   ► so many of my applications it's because

00:11:23 ◼   ► I that is a way to make more money

00:11:25 ◼   ► probably than I would from paid apps and

00:11:27 ◼   ► for I mean it's a bit I haven't done too

00:11:29 ◼   ► many of these now because most of my

00:11:31 ◼   ► apps I just I like my default is that

00:11:33 ◼   ► the app will be free with some other

00:11:35 ◼   ► form of revenue whether that's an in-app

00:11:37 ◼   ► purchase or ads or probably both but

00:11:40 ◼   ► back in the day I used to do the kind of

00:11:42 ◼   ► way you'd have the like ad version that

00:11:44 ◼   ► was free and the paid version that was

00:11:46 ◼   ► you know you let you charge for and was

00:11:48 ◼   ► like people could choose like do you

00:11:50 ◼   ► want the ad free or the other one and

00:11:52 ◼   ► there was a time when they sort of gave

00:11:54 ◼   ► each other a run for their money but I

00:11:56 ◼   ► don't know probably for the least the

00:11:57 ◼   ► last three or four years it's been in

00:12:00 ◼   ► almost entirely in the free like and I

00:12:02 ◼   ► know this is my own behavior

00:12:03 ◼   ► like that's in some ways the expectation

00:12:05 ◼   ► for apps in the App Store now is that

00:12:08 ◼   ► they're going to be free to free to

00:12:10 ◼   ► download and there may be some other

00:12:11 ◼   ► things that are have it either

00:12:13 ◼   ► advertising or an in-app purchase later

00:12:15 ◼   ► but if it's not free you just there's a

00:12:17 ◼   ► massive wall and it feels like the wall

00:12:19 ◼   ► is getting bigger and bigger now and so

00:12:21 ◼   ► if you want to make your goal is to make

00:12:23 ◼   ► it like a living from it from an app

00:12:25 ◼   ► there's a very good chance that

00:12:26 ◼   ► advertising will need to be something

00:12:28 ◼   ► that you at least strongly consider if

00:12:30 ◼   ► not implement and use in your

00:12:32 ◼   ► application speaking of which we are

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00:14:21 ◼   ► getting back to I add what was the

00:14:24 ◼   ► announcement so the announcement said

00:14:25 ◼   ► that they were shutting down the app

00:14:26 ◼   ► network can you go into what that was

00:14:28 ◼   ► and what's left this is all very

00:14:31 ◼   ► ambiguous and as somebody who like I

00:14:33 ◼   ► said makes a very substantial amount of

00:14:35 ◼   ► my revenue from I had I've tried my best

00:14:37 ◼   ► to understand this be both from the

00:14:40 ◼   ► official announcement they made and the

00:14:42 ◼   ► various bits are like rumors are like

00:14:44 ◼   ► leaks or other things that sort of like

00:14:46 ◼   ► before Apple actually made their

00:14:47 ◼   ► official announcement there was a bunch

00:14:49 ◼   ► of articles from all over the place

00:14:50 ◼   ► because people kind of talking about

00:14:51 ◼   ► that Apple was going to be scaling down

00:14:53 ◼   ► their sales team they were going to be

00:14:55 ◼   ► changing things around so like they

00:14:57 ◼   ► specifically said that the iadapt

00:14:59 ◼   ► network will be discontinued as of June

00:15:02 ◼   ► 30th of this year although we are no

00:15:04 ◼   ► longer accepting new ads into the apps

00:15:06 ◼   ► into the network advertising campaigns

00:15:08 ◼   ► will continue to run and be still

00:15:10 ◼   ► earning advertising revenue until June

00:15:12 ◼   ► 30th as best I understand like the

00:15:14 ◼   ► iadapt network is one it's a term I was

00:15:18 ◼   ► I spent the last like a couple of days

00:15:20 ◼   ► trying to find a definition for what

00:15:22 ◼   ► that actually means and I haven't found

00:15:24 ◼   ► any like hits it the exactly like it

00:15:28 ◼   ► could be that the app network is the

00:15:30 ◼   ► power

00:15:30 ◼   ► if I add right now that you use two if I

00:15:34 ◼   ► wanted to promote my app like I could

00:15:35 ◼   ► put make an ad for pedometer plus plus I

00:15:38 ◼   ► could put it into my ad and then other

00:15:40 ◼   ► apps that are showing I ads would be

00:15:43 ◼   ► sure you know then promoting it for me

00:15:44 ◼   ► and I'd pay for that it could be that I

00:15:47 ◼   ► think it's also possible that it's the

00:15:49 ◼   ► sort of the whole way that which ads are

00:15:51 ◼   ► being collected and aggregated right now

00:15:53 ◼   ► both from that and then from the

00:15:55 ◼   ► original thing like back in 2010 when I

00:15:58 ◼   ► had was first launched it was supposed

00:15:59 ◼   ► to be about big brands and you know

00:16:01 ◼   ► there was Steve Jobs talked up on the

00:16:02 ◼   ► stage talking about how they were gonna

00:16:04 ◼   ► partner with all these big brands to

00:16:06 ◼   ► make these really emotional experiences

00:16:08 ◼   ► and you know to raise and elevate the

00:16:11 ◼   ► thing which I thought lasted like a

00:16:12 ◼   ► month didn't last very long that's it

00:16:15 ◼   ► that's probably fair to say I remember

00:16:16 ◼   ► there was a like because a Nissan Leaf

00:16:18 ◼   ► had won there were a couple of like big

00:16:21 ◼   ► brands that had them but it just didn't

00:16:22 ◼   ► seem I think it might have literally

00:16:23 ◼   ► only been a couple yeah

00:16:25 ◼   ► and that never really went anywhere and

00:16:27 ◼   ► so I don't think it's that but it seems

00:16:28 ◼   ► like the I had as we know it now is

00:16:31 ◼   ► going to be going away from what other

00:16:34 ◼   ► not necessarily from Apple's direct

00:16:36 ◼   ► announcements but from some of the other

00:16:37 ◼   ► leaks it sounds like they are going to

00:16:38 ◼   ► be continuing to there will continue to

00:16:41 ◼   ► be an i ad framework in iOS I'm not

00:16:45 ◼   ► completely sure on that like it's

00:16:46 ◼   ► possible in iOS 10 that it's just gonna

00:16:48 ◼   ► go away

00:16:48 ◼   ► that would seem a little weird but it's

00:16:51 ◼   ► possible and it may be replaced by

00:16:53 ◼   ► something more how griff mcore

00:16:55 ◼   ► straightforward or it's entirely

00:16:56 ◼   ► possible that Apple is just gonna sort

00:16:58 ◼   ► of back away from this whole thing I

00:17:00 ◼   ► mean I think the reality though is

00:17:01 ◼   ► either way whatever is going to happen

00:17:02 ◼   ► as of June 30th the revenue models that

00:17:06 ◼   ► are based like my own on you know

00:17:08 ◼   ► substantially hanai ad are likely going

00:17:10 ◼   ► to need to be prepared for a change

00:17:13 ◼   ► exactly what that looks like I'm still

00:17:15 ◼   ► honestly working out for myself but

00:17:17 ◼   ► whatever we're do whatever it is it's

00:17:19 ◼   ► likely not going to be as performant in

00:17:21 ◼   ► terms of revenue or as from a fill rate

00:17:23 ◼   ► perspective and all these things as you

00:17:25 ◼   ► know the major thing they're doing now

00:17:27 ◼   ► because it definitely doesn't sound like

00:17:28 ◼   ► they're just like oh we're going to

00:17:30 ◼   ► taking what we have and going in a

00:17:31 ◼   ► different direction there's definitely

00:17:32 ◼   ► like we're discontinuing a large swath

00:17:34 ◼   ► of this I'm going to be potentially

00:17:37 ◼   ► replacing it with something or maybe not

00:17:38 ◼   ► at all but it's definitely a big massive

00:17:41 ◼   ► change if you use I ad

00:17:43 ◼   ► coming you know coming in in June

00:17:45 ◼   ► presumably like you know right after WWC

00:17:48 ◼   ► maybe like going at bill announced or

00:17:50 ◼   ► cheering WC they'll announce what's

00:17:52 ◼   ► going to replace it or what we need to

00:17:53 ◼   ► do which will be a little short notice

00:17:54 ◼   ► but something's definitely coming yeah I

00:17:58 ◼   ► mean it's interesting like if you think

00:17:59 ◼   ► back about like why I ad was created in

00:18:02 ◼   ► the first place it was to to basically

00:18:04 ◼   ► like Apple saw that ad networks on

00:18:06 ◼   ► mobile were becoming a thing ad funded

00:18:08 ◼   ► apps for life had become you know a big

00:18:10 ◼   ► revenue stream and they were all these

00:18:12 ◼   ► kind of creepy ad companies coming in

00:18:15 ◼   ► and trying to make these kind of crappy

00:18:17 ◼   ► atom beds for apps and so I imagine the

00:18:21 ◼   ► reason I ad exists is because Apple you

00:18:23 ◼   ► know Steve said it right and say she

00:18:24 ◼   ► said in that announcement that like

00:18:26 ◼   ► these things frankly suck and that we

00:18:28 ◼   ► think we can do better and you know

00:18:30 ◼   ► Apple wanted what they want to control

00:18:32 ◼   ► over this monetization method for

00:18:34 ◼   ► themselves but it didn't really play out

00:18:36 ◼   ► that way what what has played out is

00:18:38 ◼   ► turns out Apple is not not a very good

00:18:40 ◼   ► ad company it just seems like it's not

00:18:42 ◼   ► the kind of thing Apple is good at we

00:18:45 ◼   ► especially with all their stances on

00:18:46 ◼   ► privacy and everything else like it just

00:18:48 ◼   ► seems like running and running a big ad

00:18:49 ◼   ► network kind of conflicts with what they

00:18:52 ◼   ► do but the it maybe it's the lesser of

00:18:55 ◼   ► two evils because you know like the if

00:18:57 ◼   ► they don't run the ad network then the

00:18:59 ◼   ► third-party ad networks are the only

00:19:01 ◼   ► choice for developers who have ad

00:19:03 ◼   ► supported apps rather than just being

00:19:05 ◼   ► like a backup choice so I wonder like

00:19:08 ◼   ► you know assuming it's an men see when I

00:19:11 ◼   ► first heard the the the app network was

00:19:14 ◼   ► being heard and I thought they meant

00:19:15 ◼   ► those little templates developers could

00:19:17 ◼   ► use to just make their you know rather

00:19:18 ◼   ► than having the whole interactive

00:19:19 ◼   ► experience it was like this template

00:19:20 ◼   ► that you as any any developer could sign

00:19:23 ◼   ► up and you basically get like an image

00:19:24 ◼   ► and the if you if it was tapped it would

00:19:26 ◼   ► show like a little App Store slide up

00:19:27 ◼   ► sheet so you wouldn't have to really do

00:19:29 ◼   ► any custom programming there wouldn't be

00:19:31 ◼   ► any custom interactivity it would just

00:19:32 ◼   ► be a banner image for your app and

00:19:34 ◼   ► people tap it and it shows the App Store

00:19:35 ◼   ► page and I actually I did you ever pay

00:19:39 ◼   ► for those do you ever buy those before

00:19:40 ◼   ► I've tried them they never worked for me

00:19:43 ◼   ► I mean I think they only work for an

00:19:44 ◼   ► application that you are going if you

00:19:47 ◼   ► are like really going if the value of a

00:19:50 ◼   ► each customer to you is quite a lot you

00:19:52 ◼   ► know which I imagine if you're one of

00:19:54 ◼   ► these like free-to-play game kind of

00:19:56 ◼   ► things you can probably get two

00:19:57 ◼   ► where you know if you're paying a few

00:19:59 ◼   ► dollars to acquire a new user that's

00:20:01 ◼   ► actually worthwhile to you overall

00:20:03 ◼   ► because you know the average value of a

00:20:05 ◼   ► customer is bigger than that but for me

00:20:08 ◼   ► it never made sense like even for my

00:20:09 ◼   ► paid applications there's my average

00:20:11 ◼   ► that the amount of money I typically

00:20:13 ◼   ► would get from somebody is just so low

00:20:15 ◼   ► in comparison that it just never made

00:20:17 ◼   ► sense yeah that's too bad so so it could

00:20:21 ◼   ► be that they're shutting that down

00:20:22 ◼   ► because the economics have just made it

00:20:24 ◼   ► not that effective for most developers

00:20:26 ◼   ► or it could be that the app network

00:20:28 ◼   ► might mean running all AI ads in

00:20:31 ◼   ► people's apps in which case they would

00:20:33 ◼   ► just because like the the new Apple news

00:20:35 ◼   ► app still uses I ad and so maybe they're

00:20:38 ◼   ► saying everything else is being shut

00:20:41 ◼   ► down except for the ones running in

00:20:42 ◼   ► Apple's own apps or maybe they're saying

00:20:45 ◼   ► only those you know special developer

00:20:47 ◼   ► template ones are getting shipped and

00:20:48 ◼   ► who knows but assuming it's assuming

00:20:50 ◼   ► it's the former that like that nobody

00:20:53 ◼   ► will be able to use I ad in their apps

00:20:54 ◼   ► anymore which which is which would be

00:20:56 ◼   ► the part that you're thinking would

00:20:58 ◼   ► probably be like the worst case scenario

00:20:59 ◼   ► here where would you go

00:21:01 ◼   ► what would you do next like are there

00:21:03 ◼   ► third-party options that are any good is

00:21:05 ◼   ► is there any kind of like clear winner

00:21:08 ◼   ► like what what is that what is the

00:21:09 ◼   ► landscape like as far as you know so

00:21:12 ◼   ► this is the part that makes me really

00:21:14 ◼   ► sad like with this news and I totally

00:21:17 ◼   ► understand you know it's like it's

00:21:18 ◼   ► always been a bit of an odd thing for

00:21:20 ◼   ► Apple to be in the advertising business

00:21:21 ◼   ► because so much of what they do is

00:21:23 ◼   ► completely orthogonal to that like

00:21:25 ◼   ► they're not in general they're all about

00:21:27 ◼   ► like having a really strong privacy and

00:21:29 ◼   ► having all kinds of things like that

00:21:30 ◼   ► that are all about like we want to know

00:21:32 ◼   ► is at least about you and do we're gonna

00:21:34 ◼   ► give you a premium experience which is

00:21:36 ◼   ► typically not the advertising model and

00:21:40 ◼   ► sort of always liked is that like hey

00:21:41 ◼   ► they have this advertising network and

00:21:43 ◼   ► so I can kind of like why I just I don't

00:21:46 ◼   ► actually use and do any backfilling in

00:21:48 ◼   ► any of my apps like I don't do the thing

00:21:50 ◼   ► where it's like even though I don't get

00:21:51 ◼   ► 100% Phil I'm okay with that because I'm

00:21:54 ◼   ► like you know what my ads are good and

00:21:55 ◼   ► I've never had like seen a Naiad in my

00:21:57 ◼   ► application that made me feel really

00:22:00 ◼   ► uncomfortable like I don't feel great

00:22:01 ◼   ► about some of them but you notice if you

00:22:03 ◼   ► with just like if you just open the

00:22:06 ◼   ► floodgates to like every advertiser

00:22:07 ◼   ► every ad ever we all kind of know where

00:22:10 ◼   ► that goes like you

00:22:11 ◼   ► look at the web right now the kind of

00:22:13 ◼   ► ads that you start to see at the bottom

00:22:15 ◼   ► of like hey if you liked this story you

00:22:16 ◼   ► may also like these other stories about

00:22:18 ◼   ► like horrible things or just total scams

00:22:20 ◼   ► like yeah like it's it's it's terrible

00:22:23 ◼   ► and that's where ultimately I imagine a

00:22:25 ◼   ► lot of advertising will go in Apps as

00:22:28 ◼   ► well and I like that at least I felt

00:22:29 ◼   ► like you know like apple with I ad was

00:22:31 ◼   ► like a firewall against that and I could

00:22:33 ◼   ► say you know but okay maybe I'm making a

00:22:36 ◼   ► bit less money doing this but I feel

00:22:38 ◼   ► confident that what I'm gonna end up

00:22:39 ◼   ► with isn't like terrible and make me

00:22:42 ◼   ► feel squirm and you know I'm gonna get

00:22:43 ◼   ► screenshots from people being like look

00:22:45 ◼   ► at the ad that your app we're showing me

00:22:46 ◼   ► and for you know for some awful thing so

00:22:49 ◼   ► where I'm going now is kind of a weird

00:22:51 ◼   ► and open question like there are so many

00:22:55 ◼   ► ad networks that's like it's kind of

00:22:58 ◼   ► crazy and a lot of them have like really

00:23:00 ◼   ► complicated or confusing names you know

00:23:02 ◼   ► like we have AdMob ad colony ad Falcon

00:23:05 ◼   ► ad rally mod Fox tap it fado be a

00:23:08 ◼   ► vongole tap jump is real these are

00:23:13 ◼   ► actual ones that I was recently just

00:23:14 ◼   ► like I was quickly before we were

00:23:16 ◼   ► preparing I was like pulling in these

00:23:17 ◼   ► names and I'm like those are some ad

00:23:18 ◼   ► networks that exist right now and it

00:23:20 ◼   ► sounds like like parody names yeah but

00:23:23 ◼   ► like that's what we have and there's

00:23:24 ◼   ► dozens of them and I mean I imagine the

00:23:26 ◼   ► biggest ones like AdMob is probably one

00:23:28 ◼   ► of the bigger ones because it's run by

00:23:29 ◼   ► Google who is obviously like one of the

00:23:31 ◼   ► biggest advertising companies in the

00:23:32 ◼   ► world if not the biggest

00:23:33 ◼   ► I'm sure Apple loves that there's you

00:23:36 ◼   ► think you can do some things with

00:23:37 ◼   ► Facebook there's a few others that are

00:23:39 ◼   ► kind of big but what I'm gonna facing

00:23:42 ◼   ► now is like it's this weird question of

00:23:44 ◼   ► like well do I just pick another one and

00:23:46 ◼   ► hope for the best do I use kind of an

00:23:47 ◼   ► aggregator which is a lot of the way a

00:23:50 ◼   ► lot of people do this type of thing

00:23:51 ◼   ► where you'll download this big massive

00:23:55 ◼   ► blob of like third-party code you'll

00:23:57 ◼   ► shove it into your application and it

00:23:59 ◼   ► includes the all the SDKs for like

00:24:01 ◼   ► dozens of different advertising networks

00:24:04 ◼   ► and you'll sign up for all of them and

00:24:05 ◼   ► you'll kind of be bidding back and forth

00:24:07 ◼   ► between them so that whoever has the

00:24:09 ◼   ► best ad for you right now you'll show

00:24:11 ◼   ► and they'll switch between them

00:24:12 ◼   ► dynamically but like the more you do

00:24:15 ◼   ► that the less control you ultimately

00:24:17 ◼   ► have and what you're showing in your app

00:24:19 ◼   ► and also like thing that always makes me

00:24:21 ◼   ► nervous is now like the more third-party

00:24:24 ◼   ► code I have

00:24:24 ◼   ► put in my application like that's really

00:24:26 ◼   ► scary both from like customer privacy

00:24:29 ◼   ► concerns and things like they could be

00:24:32 ◼   ► doing all kinds of things in my

00:24:33 ◼   ► applications that I maybe wouldn't

00:24:35 ◼   ► really like you know it's like you for

00:24:38 ◼   ► all I know like they're gonna be popping

00:24:39 ◼   ► up all kinds of permission requests in

00:24:42 ◼   ► my application that my customers assume

00:24:44 ◼   ► are me asking for it rather than them

00:24:47 ◼   ► like that's not something that they

00:24:48 ◼   ► could entirely do because I'm running

00:24:50 ◼   ► their code that I probably can't see the

00:24:53 ◼   ► source Oh not to mention like making

00:24:55 ◼   ► Network requests or anything like that I

00:24:57 ◼   ► mean like or even even just like like

00:24:59 ◼   ► any kind of use of like private API is

00:25:02 ◼   ► if they get in trouble for that then

00:25:03 ◼   ► really you're getting in trouble for

00:25:04 ◼   ► that like it's it's a huge risk yeah and

00:25:07 ◼   ► I love that I add at least like it was a

00:25:09 ◼   ► system framework like it shipped in the

00:25:11 ◼   ► OS I had to bundle nothing it was just

00:25:13 ◼   ► in the same way if that's just like me

00:25:14 ◼   ► including you're using healthkit in my

00:25:17 ◼   ► application or using AV foundation like

00:25:19 ◼   ► using I add there's just a thing and if

00:25:21 ◼   ► I'm not going to be able to do that like

00:25:22 ◼   ► at some point I'm going to have to

00:25:24 ◼   ► include some code that I don't really

00:25:27 ◼   ► want to include or I have to decide that

00:25:30 ◼   ► you know what I'm just going to have to

00:25:32 ◼   ► radically change my business and move

00:25:34 ◼   ► away from this because there's

00:25:37 ◼   ► ultimately like there's going to be some

00:25:38 ◼   ► kind of a line that I have to find

00:25:40 ◼   ► between like how comfortable I am I with

00:25:43 ◼   ► you know whoever they are and I'm sure

00:25:44 ◼   ► if I talk to the the salesman at these

00:25:46 ◼   ► various companies I'm sure that all the

00:25:47 ◼   ► oh no we're you know we take privacy

00:25:49 ◼   ► very importantly very seriously it's

00:25:50 ◼   ► very important to us oh sure but like I

00:25:53 ◼   ► felt comfortable when Apple did that but

00:25:55 ◼   ► I there's very few companies that I

00:25:57 ◼   ► would feel comfortable about that and

00:25:59 ◼   ► ultimately I'll probably like my gut

00:26:01 ◼   ► says I'll end up at least experiment

00:26:02 ◼   ► least initially planning to go to

00:26:04 ◼   ► something like Google if not not because

00:26:06 ◼   ► I think Google's are you know like a not

00:26:08 ◼   ► creepy company but at least they're big

00:26:09 ◼   ► enough company that if they were doing

00:26:13 ◼   ► something truly dubious like it would be

00:26:16 ◼   ► well known and they would probably be

00:26:18 ◼   ► held more accountable to it than like

00:26:19 ◼   ► some kind of fly-by-night VC funded

00:26:22 ◼   ► thing that just sort of appeared one day

00:26:24 ◼   ► and I was like oh you know we have great

00:26:25 ◼   ► rates and awesome ads like maybe you do

00:26:28 ◼   ► but I don't really you don't have a lot

00:26:30 ◼   ► of history there in a way that you know

00:26:32 ◼   ► more unless worried like if goo if

00:26:33 ◼   ► Google's beings really sketchy at least

00:26:35 ◼   ► I'm at there's people who are going to

00:26:37 ◼   ► know that

00:26:38 ◼   ► and like you know hold them accountable

00:26:40 ◼   ► to that at least somewhat but I don't

00:26:43 ◼   ► know it's really something that I'm kind

00:26:45 ◼   ► of struggling with through right now is

00:26:46 ◼   ► exactly where I'm gonna go cuz you know

00:26:48 ◼   ► if I had truly did just go away and just

00:26:51 ◼   ► disappeared from my app it's like there

00:26:53 ◼   ► goes you know 40% of my business like in

00:26:57 ◼   ► terms of revenue just disappeared and so

00:26:58 ◼   ► I need to work out how far down that

00:27:01 ◼   ► road I feel comfortable with with you

00:27:03 ◼   ► know like other people's code other

00:27:05 ◼   ► people's that you know showing things in

00:27:09 ◼   ► maps that really maybe I don't agree

00:27:10 ◼   ► with or like but you know ultimately I

00:27:14 ◼   ► have to ship a product that I feel

00:27:16 ◼   ► comfortable with so it's gonna be a

00:27:18 ◼   ► really interesting next couple of months

00:27:19 ◼   ► as I'd kind of filter through that

00:27:21 ◼   ► all right well best of luck I think your

00:27:23 ◼   ► plan sounds about right I think I agree

00:27:25 ◼   ► that you know going to go into like one

00:27:28 ◼   ► of the biggest companies that is most

00:27:30 ◼   ► reputable and you know admob or Google

00:27:32 ◼   ► it like you know but that that makes the

00:27:33 ◼   ► most sense I think you're right I think

00:27:35 ◼   ► like even though any ad company is

00:27:38 ◼   ► creepy to some degree I think the the

00:27:40 ◼   ► giant ones like Google like that's

00:27:42 ◼   ► probably they're probably the least

00:27:43 ◼   ► creepy among a bunch of very creepy

00:27:46 ◼   ► companies yeah like the smaller ones are

00:27:48 ◼   ► way scarier to me so all right oh that's

00:27:51 ◼   ► I think that wraps it up for today and

00:27:53 ◼   ► best of luck with that and I hope I'm

00:27:55 ◼   ► sure we'll be talking about this more as

00:27:57 ◼   ► as you get new experience with these

00:27:59 ◼   ► things over time and so I look forward

00:28:01 ◼   ► to hearing more about it and as as this

00:28:03 ◼   ► whole thing unfolds yeah so thanks a lot

00:28:06 ◼   ► to everybody for listening please

00:28:08 ◼   ► recommend us an overcast and if you can

00:28:11 ◼   ► reviews on iTunes if anybody still uses

00:28:12 ◼   ► that and we will talk to you next week

00:28:15 ◼   ► thank you for everyone for listening and

00:28:16 ◼   ► we'll see you next week bye