0:00:00we should to be intro didn't work that
0:00:06it's fine it's alright all right so this
0:00:07is episode 1 of under the radar I'm
0:00:11Marco Arment and I'm David Smith you may
0:00:14know our other podcasts david has been
0:00:16doing developing perspective for many
0:00:19years I did build and analyze first now
0:00:21I do the accidental tech podcast and
0:00:23top-4 and this is going to be a show
0:00:26about development basically it's kind of
0:00:29like the the the sequel the combination
0:00:32of build and analyze with developing
0:00:34perspective and in the spirit of
0:00:37developing respective never being longer
0:00:38than 15 minutes David how long is this
0:00:40true gonna be never longer than 30
0:00:42minutes so let's get started let's get
0:00:44started I think the place to start seems
0:00:46right now we're recording just after the
0:00:49Apple TV app store launched and it went
0:00:54online I think on last Friday and it's
0:00:56you know it's had it had a the usual
0:00:58fanfare and the things that go on with
0:01:00that but neither one of us launched
0:01:02anything on day one and then for myself
0:01:05it's the first Apple product I've ever
0:01:06not been in the store on day one for
0:01:08which is interesting
0:01:10yeah I'm the same way I I think I mean I
0:01:14was there for the watch and the Apple TV
0:01:17and I even I even got one of the early
0:01:20access developer units because I thought
0:01:22I might use it and it just literally sat
0:01:25on my desk and I was I was so busy doing
0:01:26other things because I was doing I was
0:01:29working on overcast and trying to get
0:01:31the 2.0 update out the door and that
0:01:34kind of precluded this because if I'm
0:01:35gonna make an Apple TV app it has to be
0:01:37all about streaming because local
0:01:39storage with the Apple TV is so limited
0:01:40and I didn't have the streaming engine
0:01:43done yet so I worked on the iPhone app
0:01:46first and I've been I've been doing bug
0:01:47fixes on that since and I just I have
0:01:49literally not even opened like an Xcode
0:01:52project with the TV I've no I haven't
0:01:54even seen the TV simulator I have not
0:01:56written a single line of TV code yet
0:01:58have you yeah I I got a I got a
0:02:01developer kit as well and I wrote a
0:02:04version of Padre angler my podcast
0:02:07client for the Apple TV and it works and
0:02:11it plays I didn't
0:02:13spend the time and energy to get it
0:02:15ready for day one though but it's like
0:02:17it's an interesting developer platform
0:02:18because it is essentially iOS just - a
0:02:21bunch of stuff like there's a couple of
0:02:23new things but essentially it's just i
0:02:25OS UI kids with a different input
0:02:28mechanism rather than obviously being
0:02:30touch based it's remote control based
0:02:33but I used it and is like it's it's fine
0:02:35and easy the thing that ultimately I
0:02:37think slowed me down though is I just
0:02:40became like there's just so much else to
0:02:42do and so many other things that like if
0:02:46I'm trying to be on every Apple platform
0:02:48as a one-man shop it's essentially
0:02:49impossible now and so I looked at the
0:02:51Apple TV and I'm like it's gonna be a
0:02:53long time before there's a big market
0:02:54there and so I just didn't prioritize it
0:02:58yeah and you know and I feel like you
0:03:00know we're coming at this from from two
0:03:02different viewpoints here you know I'm I
0:03:04tend to work on a very small
0:03:06I tend to work on usually one app for a
0:03:08span of years I very rarely have
0:03:10additional apps I'm not very good at
0:03:13splitting my time between multiple apps
0:03:14I pretty much just do one thing and I
0:03:17try to make that one app big and
0:03:18complicated and appeal to a ton of
0:03:20people in order to to keep it going
0:03:22whereas the background you come from is
0:03:25is I think much more interesting
0:03:27honestly because you know when people
0:03:30and this is one of the reasons I wanted
0:03:31to do the show with you and one of the
0:03:33reasons I wanted to call it under the
0:03:34radar because when people do when people
0:03:37think about Apple developers they tend
0:03:39to think about the handful of well-known
0:03:42ones who make mass consumer apps that
0:03:46you may have heard of so apps like tweet
0:03:47bot or net newswire and or you know the
0:03:50apps from panic that that you know a lot
0:03:51of developers have heard of or use or
0:03:53wowed by and there's this massive number
0:03:56of developers who we don't usually hear
0:04:00about in in the circle of like Apple
0:04:02enthusiasts and tech bloggers and stuff
0:04:04and I think you are a very very good
0:04:06example of of this massive market and
0:04:09and I think you you do it better than
0:04:11most people would do it and so what you
0:04:14do is not like the high profile you know
0:04:19a high attention mac blogger long term
0:04:24ecosystem kind of thing
0:04:27you do something way more pragmatic and
0:04:30so can you maybe you just go into that
0:04:32briefly for anyone who doesn't know you
0:04:34yet from who's listening to this for
0:04:35some reason can you go into like what
0:04:38exactly you do and and how you got there
0:04:40so I yeah so I've been an iOS developer
0:04:43essentially since the AppStore started
0:04:45about seven and a bit years ago I didn't
0:04:47quite make the day one of the AppStore
0:04:50mostly because of like business approval
0:04:52stuff but I've been developing ever
0:04:55since then and since then I've launched
0:04:57I think I recently worked this out to
0:05:00something like fifty-two unique app
0:05:02concepts in the last seven years so it
0:05:05works out to be about once every one
0:05:07every two months or so it hasn't been
0:05:09exactly that even if a pace but that's
0:05:11roughly the average and but I've been
0:05:15making a good steady comfortable living
0:05:17from it for about six-and-a-half of
0:05:19those seven years and so I I have lots
0:05:22of different products in a lot of
0:05:24different areas my tend to like at this
0:05:27point I have probably five or six that
0:05:29are like my main income makers and they
0:05:32each the biggest one of them only makes
0:05:35up a third of my income so it's a very
0:05:36diversified type of thing and that's my
0:05:39the approach that I found that works
0:05:40well for me is to make lots of small
0:05:44bets and see which one pays off in the
0:05:47store rather than trying to take the
0:05:49approach like with overcast if I
0:05:51remember right it's like you spend
0:05:52eighteen months working on it YUM as
0:05:54like a big major focus and like for me
0:05:57the longest I've ever spent in a product
0:05:58before I launched it is probably four
0:06:01weeks or something along those lines and
0:06:03so it's a very different kind of a focus
0:06:05where I'll put something together I'll
0:06:07put it out in the store I try and make
0:06:08it like good in quality but very
0:06:11straightforward and you know see what
0:06:14happens and that approach means that I
0:06:17end up now with a lots of different
0:06:18products doing a lot of different things
0:06:20and you know I'm as if it's you know I
0:06:22have the benefit of diversity in terms
0:06:24of stability but the difficulty in terms
0:06:27of keeping up with things when I have
0:06:28such a wide sort of portfolio to manage
0:06:32and one thing I like about the way you
0:06:35work as well is that you challenged
0:06:38assumptions that
0:06:40any of us in like the the other half of
0:06:43this community don't challenge like you
0:06:46will like you you make your income in
0:06:48part from I add I don't know anybody
0:06:50else I'm I don't think I have any other
0:06:52developer friends who have a meaningful
0:06:54presence with using I ads and and you do
0:06:57and you will challenge assumptions based
0:07:00on things like monetization support app
0:07:02concepts I'll design like all sorts of
0:07:05stuff that that you challenge and and I
0:07:07think you benefit from that because you
0:07:10while everyone else's is locked into
0:07:13this one way of thinking and trying to
0:07:15shape the App Store into like trying to
0:07:19like you know educate consumers into the
0:07:22way they think the App Store should be
0:07:23you are out there actually adapting and
0:07:26and thriving and what the App Store
0:07:28actually is yeah I mean I I think I try
0:07:31and think of when I look at the App
0:07:34Store think is a business in general
0:07:35like I can't change my customers all I
0:07:41can do is react to them for them for the
0:07:43most part like I like using things like
0:07:46people who should want to pay for
0:07:48software as like a statement it doesn't
0:07:50make any sense to me like people are
0:07:52going to want to do whatever they want
0:07:54to do and like my job as a developer as
0:07:56a businessman is to look at the market
0:07:58that I'm I want to work in and find ways
0:08:01to adapt my business to it and I don't
0:08:04just use I adore advertising like I make
0:08:06the majority of my income from
0:08:07advertising and I add and that's been in
0:08:11somebody's been far more stable than any
0:08:13of the more paid or subscription or
0:08:15patronage or all the other things that I
0:08:16have like the most stable income I get
0:08:19is from advertising and I love it
0:08:22because advertising is great because it
0:08:23I've it the likely Adelines developer
0:08:26and customer like goals like my goal is
0:08:29to get them using the app as much as I
0:08:30can because the more they use it the
0:08:32more advertising income I make and from
0:08:34you know if they're using the app a lot
0:08:36that means they like it and so for me it
0:08:37was a no-brainer to get started but it
0:08:39definitely is I know what you mean like
0:08:40it's it's a bit counter to I think a lot
0:08:42of the it's not necessary
0:08:45pretentiousness but there's a there's a
0:08:46definitely that air of like like you
0:08:49want Apple you want to sell an Apple
0:08:51like product in the App Store
0:08:53but that doesn't necessarily work
0:08:55because apple doesn't even sell apple
0:08:58like products in the App Store
0:09:00yeah and I think this was all like I
0:09:02think this was all rooted in the the
0:09:05community of like kind of like nice
0:09:08Kraft Mac independent developers that
0:09:11that has existed for quite some time on
0:09:12the Mac before iOS and everything became
0:09:14really so big you know people like panic
0:09:17or delicious monster you know people
0:09:19like that
0:09:19brent simmons dave wantanabe like
0:09:22there's this crowd of like kind of old
0:09:24school the old guard who have been
0:09:26around for a while you know omni group
0:09:27is a big one who've been very successful
0:09:29at this and and many of them continue to
0:09:31be very successful at this but there was
0:09:33this idea for so long that many people
0:09:35still hold that that would translate
0:09:37into iOS and that also any developer who
0:09:42would be able to program iOS apps would
0:09:44kind of think that they deserved that
0:09:46same level of success if they just put a
0:09:49lit there at all or if they put you know
0:09:53a lot of work into something and and
0:09:55there's many problems with this that are
0:09:56way too long to discuss in a 30 minute
0:09:58podcast one of which is that that the
0:10:01amount of work you put into something
0:10:02does not correlate to the value that the
0:10:04market will place on it or the amount of
0:10:06money you can make from it but I think
0:10:09it's productive to challenge this notion
0:10:12of like well you know is this really the
0:10:14way the world should work and and
0:10:17regardless of whether I think it should
0:10:19work this way if this is not the way the
0:10:22world works like in practice
0:10:23what what can I do as a developer to to
0:10:27succeed in this market and sitting
0:10:29around waiting for the market to change
0:10:31to benefit you is probably not very
0:10:34productive because that's just unlikely
0:10:36to happen yeah and the interesting thing
0:10:38I was wondering what you think about
0:10:40this cuz I'm seeing the the spread of
0:10:43the of your app career in the App Store
0:10:44like he's starting an instant paper
0:10:46which was paid upfront $10 if I remember
0:10:48right yeah the whole first year it was
0:10:5010 bucks and I dropped at the 5 minute
0:10:51and then it's like following the
0:10:53progression then I think you know your
0:10:54income started to shift in some ways
0:10:56more to subscription and in-app purchase
0:10:59and then switching entirely to overcast
0:11:04where it became it was you know free
0:11:05with in-app purchase
0:11:07four features and then now it's entirely
0:11:09free with like patronage support mm-hmm
0:11:13it's you've done you've essentially
0:11:15followed the trajectory of the App Store
0:11:18in that way right you're starting with
0:11:20like the the old school kind of well
0:11:23it's it's premium software I should
0:11:25charge a lot of money to it's still good
0:11:27software but the way you pay for it is
0:11:29completely different right and and most
0:11:32of that has again just been because I am
0:11:35like I'm not like thinking I'm like you
0:11:37know treading new ground and being an
0:11:39explorer no I'm usually coming to these
0:11:41to these changes late actually like I
0:11:43like instapaper holding the price at $10
0:11:45for the whole first year was a mistake
0:11:47when I dropped at the fives
0:11:49sales went up considerably and then you
0:11:51know later on it dropped to three I
0:11:52think I held it for a while three or
0:11:54four and then you know in sales were
0:11:56pretty good then I started experimenting
0:11:57and then shifting to subscription that
0:12:01that ended up making way more money than
0:12:03I thought it would and doing very well
0:12:05and then with overcast coming out at
0:12:06free with in-app purchase and now with
0:12:10patron eggs like those have all done
0:12:12better than I expected them to and you
0:12:14know it this is all about just adapting
0:12:16to what the market is many people blame
0:12:18the market on on you know Apple not
0:12:22implementing upgrade pricing or the App
0:12:25Store not having good enough discovery
0:12:27or search and and all of those things
0:12:29are valid complaints but they're not the
0:12:31biggest problem the biggest problem is
0:12:33there's just a huge oversupply of
0:12:36developers and apps who are who are all
0:12:39trying to compete for the same dollars
0:12:40in the same roles in the same time and
0:12:42attention and so you know back in the
0:12:44olden days when you'd have like panic
0:12:46and omni selling mac apps for 50 bucks
0:12:49that worked in part because of what they
0:12:52were and what people use max for and who
0:12:54was buying max but also that worked in
0:12:56part because there just weren't that
0:12:58many developers doing it if you would
0:13:00have had 10,000 developers trying to
0:13:02make the same handful of nice consumer
0:13:05high-profile mac apps you would have had
0:13:07the exact same problem back then
0:13:09it isn't that the market has has like
0:13:12gotten stupider or cheaper or anything
0:13:14like that it's that this is now the mass
0:13:17market of what developers do it wasn't
0:13:19you know back in 2006
0:13:21most developers weren't working on mac
0:13:23apps now most developers are working on
0:13:26iOS and web apps and a span I think it's
0:13:28I think the shift from web to iOS apps
0:13:30is really pretty pretty significant and
0:13:33so if you think about just that's what
0:13:35so many developers are working on of
0:13:37course was going to be a massive
0:13:39oversupply and of course there's going
0:13:41to be tons of competition and a race to
0:13:43the bottom and pricing and that's not
0:13:45because apples doing something wrong you
0:13:48know Apple is not helping in certain
0:13:49ways but they're not the cause of this
0:13:51problem and you know again pragmatically
0:13:53it is it is useful to think of yourself
0:13:56not as somebody who all you need to do
0:13:59is is ship a nicely designed polished
0:14:02app and money will start flowing in but
0:14:05as somebody who has to really fight like
0:14:08really like work hard and fight hard and
0:14:11be lean to try to attract any kind of
0:14:14attention and any kind of money from
0:14:16what is a very crowded hyper competitive
0:14:19market and I think it's also that the
0:14:21biggest trap that I know I struggled
0:14:23with for years was untwist this over
0:14:26this feeling of over valuing my own work
0:14:28that if I spent a long time working on
0:14:31something that everybody should then
0:14:33sort of oh it should it somehow
0:14:36intrinsically that makes it more
0:14:37valuable to people right that they look
0:14:39at something it's like whereas when like
0:14:42when people are going to part with money
0:14:43in whatever form that is like whether
0:14:45that's right or I guess part with
0:14:46something like their attention their
0:14:48money their it they're exchanging
0:14:51something for that like there they need
0:14:53to be feel like they're getting
0:14:54something in return and the funny thing
0:14:58is I think a lot of people think that
0:15:00software intrinsically should feel
0:15:02valuable like as their like the classic
0:15:04that oh it's it's people will spend five
0:15:06dollars on a latte but they won't spend
0:15:07five dollars on my app and it's like
0:15:10well maybe they actually want the latte
0:15:12more than they want your app like your
0:15:13app may not actually be that that
0:15:15valuable to them and that's why they're
0:15:17they don't want to spend that money on
0:15:18it's like you have to be able to wrap
0:15:19your arms around what they're actually
0:15:21buying with that like is it
0:15:23entertainment is it productivity is it
0:15:27amusement is it
0:15:29are they exchanging goodwill for money
0:15:30like things like when you start to get
0:15:32into like I know I've
0:15:34and an app with the tip jar in it or you
0:15:36have patronage and overcast now like the
0:15:38uric sense they are cure providing a
0:15:39mechanism for people to exchange
0:15:40goodwill for money is really what your
0:15:43have what you're doing there and unless
0:15:45you're able to really wrap your arms
0:15:47around that it's hard to really like be
0:15:48okay with saying like that's okay like I
0:15:50do advertising because for a lot of my
0:15:52apps like the app itself isn't
0:15:54particularly valuable to the person it's
0:15:56useful but it's not necessarily valuable
0:15:58in a way that for a lot of people they
0:16:00want to play we want to put money into
0:16:01it directly once they used to once they
0:16:04use it for a while and like it they are
0:16:08willing to piss spend money but they're
0:16:09not spending money for the functionality
0:16:11they're spending money to be able to
0:16:12express the goodwill they have towards
0:16:14me for the benefit I've given them but
0:16:16that's different than it being
0:16:19intrinsically valuable to them because
0:16:20when they started they didn't see it as
0:16:22valuable they wanted it to be free and
0:16:23if it wasn't free I don't think like
0:16:25I've you know my pedometer a pedometer
0:16:27plus plus wouldn't have sold at all or
0:16:29at least in that not in large quantity
0:16:30that it has you know to this point yeah
0:16:33you know even as a consumer of apps now
0:16:35I find myself even as somebody who has
0:16:37been a proponent of paid apps for so
0:16:38long and sold one for so long when I
0:16:41search for something in the App Store
0:16:43and I see the search results list you
0:16:45know if I need if I needed something
0:16:46that I'm not looking for a specific name
0:16:48where I'm just looking for a specific
0:16:49type of app so a pedometer or a step
0:16:51count or whatever you know if I search
0:16:53the App Store and the first 20 entries
0:16:56in the search are all free and number
0:16:59twenty one is four bucks that one
0:17:02doesn't stand a chance like that's just
0:17:04and that's just the reality of how
0:17:05people search the App Store and and it's
0:17:08it's very important that you know as you
0:17:09said like to recognize that and and you
0:17:13know to recognize that not every app
0:17:15that Avery that every developer makes is
0:17:18going to be worth a non-trivial number
0:17:21of customers spending $2 on it or
0:17:23whatever you know like I mean I've seen
0:17:25so many apps that do things that I don't
0:17:28really need you know like like so many
0:17:31apps that are things like coffee timers
0:17:32well you know if a coffee timer is
0:17:35really good and it's free I might use it
0:17:37or I can just use the built-in timer on
0:17:41the device that's not as good but it
0:17:43works and I think a lot of people go
0:17:45through a similar kind of thought
0:17:46process of you know if you if
0:17:48it's such a different barrier than than
0:17:50any price and and if you're if you're
0:17:53looking at an app the alternative isn't
0:17:55just every other app that's in the store
0:17:57that does that same thing
0:17:58the alternative is also just
0:18:00non-consumption it's not buying the app
0:18:02at all not buying any app and just going
0:18:05without that role in your life and as we
0:18:07get more and more and more apps in the
0:18:10store which is only you know that's been
0:18:12going on forever now as we get more more
0:18:14apps in the store and more and more
0:18:15demands for people's attention and more
0:18:17more alternatives that they can do like
0:18:19if they don't download your app they can
0:18:20go check Twitter for a few minutes or
0:18:22play a game and as we get more and more
0:18:25of those things more more competition
0:18:26for everything non consumption is also a
0:18:30big problem and so anything you can do
0:18:31to to address non-consumption to address
0:18:34people just bailing out and abandoning
0:18:36this this search that or this idea they
0:18:37might have had that this thing they
0:18:38wanted to do and going free is a huge
0:18:41hit against that like if you can remove
0:18:43that barrier of price upfront then it's
0:18:46so much easier for people to say you
0:18:48know what yeah I'll give it a try and
0:18:50it's then I guess the reality is that's
0:18:52how I think we've both been able to
0:18:54continue in in the App Store at this
0:18:57point and we've been doing it for a long
0:18:58time who is I ever anecdotally it seems
0:19:02like fewer and fewer smaller or lot more
0:19:06independent companies and where people
0:19:08are able to do it and I do you think a
0:19:10lot of it is that it's a lack of
0:19:11pragmatism that a lack of just like what
0:19:14is it going to take to make a living in
0:19:17this market and if you ultimately don't
0:19:18like the answer to that if you're in
0:19:19your mind you'll you only want to sell
0:19:21software in like a premium App Store
0:19:23it's like ok well you might need to do
0:19:25something else then because that may not
0:19:27exist
0:19:28yeah and you need to be in the right
0:19:29place at the right time if you want that
0:19:30you know if if if you will not budge in
0:19:32that like so right now so getting back
0:19:34for a second to the Apple TV which is
0:19:35getting out now the Apple TV app store
0:19:38has almost nothing in it it is very very
0:19:40sparse and if you are looking for
0:19:43something like like so I got this Apple
0:19:45TV I plugged it in set it up and I went
0:19:48right to the App Store to see hey what
0:19:49can I get here and I thought a couple of
0:19:51basic you know Netflix HBO now whatever
0:19:54and then okay let me try some games I
0:19:56got this cool thing I'm in the mood of
0:19:57trying new things let me go to the App
0:19:59Store and try some games and I went and
0:20:02I don't know ten bucks maybe total on a
0:20:04couple of games and I didn't even think
0:20:06about it because I'm in this buying mood
0:20:08because I just got this new device it's
0:20:09brand new has me excited and also
0:20:11there's hardly anything there to buy and
0:20:14of the very small number of games there
0:20:16were there to buy almost all of them I
0:20:19think we're paid or at least many of
0:20:20them were so I had no problem spending
0:20:23that money because of the context of
0:20:26this isn't a tremendous App Store filled
0:20:28with millions of apps most of which are
0:20:30free this is a very very small App Store
0:20:33that right now that has only very few
0:20:36apps on it and you know that's that's
0:20:38that's the reason I was able to charge
0:20:3910 bucks for Instapaper in 2008 you know
0:20:41but but then I couldn't in 2009 because
0:20:43the after was too full that's gonna
0:20:45happen with the Apple TV also you know
0:20:47if this thing takes off if this succeeds
0:20:48and and it looks like it's probably
0:20:50going to I mean it might take a few
0:20:52years before it has like tons and tons
0:20:53of Units out there but it's probably
0:20:55going to succeed and if that happens or
0:20:58as that happens there the App Store is
0:21:01gonna be way more crowded than it is now
0:21:03and it is going to get harder and harder
0:21:05to sell games and apps for the Apple TV
0:21:07for money once there is competition for
0:21:10for that same role in people's lives and
0:21:12so if you if you were gonna be the kind
0:21:14of person who wanted to sell a premium
0:21:16app for money
0:21:17you just had a window to do that on the
0:21:20Apple TV almost no one has taken up that
0:21:22out that opportunity but you just had
0:21:24that opportunity right now and it won't
0:21:26come again on the Apple TV probably ever
0:21:28you know at this like this product and
0:21:30that has now done that and it probably
0:21:32won't come again yeah and so you have to
0:21:34wait till the next big wave and you have
0:21:36to be in one of those positions where if
0:21:38you're not going to to be in a if you're
0:21:41not gonna be the kind of person who can
0:21:42thrive in an ultra competitive
0:21:43low-priced environment like the web has
0:21:46pretty much always been and like the iOS
0:21:49App Store is now then you have to follow
0:21:52the trend and be early to things be
0:21:54there on day one when new things happen
0:21:56be able to be able to figure out and
0:21:57guess which new things will take off
0:21:59which is a hugely risky process that you
0:22:01will often get wrong and it will often
0:22:03go completely to waste and and be there
0:22:06in those less competitive markets but
0:22:08then as soon as the market becomes more
0:22:09competitive you have to either adapt or
0:22:11leave yeah and I think the difficulty
0:22:13honestly with Apple TV and why I well I
0:22:15think I agree
0:22:15like the best time to sold big software
0:22:18would have been like if being there on
0:22:20day one my suspicion is the narrowness
0:22:22of the window where there's going to
0:22:24have that kind of general rush in people
0:22:27being okay with buying things is narrow
0:22:29enough that I'm very skeptical if it
0:22:32would actually be financially successful
0:22:34for most people that if they had you
0:22:38know spend a lot of time made it a nice
0:22:39big premium game or something like that
0:22:41especially designed specifically for the
0:22:44Apple TV the window in which they were
0:22:46going to be able to to sell into a kind
0:22:48of a premium group of people like people
0:22:50who obviously were excited enough about
0:22:52the product to get on day one they're
0:22:54very you know they've just spent a red
0:22:57for in Apple terms a relatively small
0:22:59amount of money for it you know it's a
0:23:01they're not nearly as expensive as a lot
0:23:03of the other other products that you
0:23:04know I can iPhone $700 or something
0:23:06whereas this is a hundred and something
0:23:07or two hundred and so that window is
0:23:11going to be very narrow and so if you
0:23:13are worried if your app requires that
0:23:16you then have big sis that you know big
0:23:19sustained sales over the next few months
0:23:21my suspicion is that's going to be a
0:23:24losing proposition and so that's
0:23:27interesting and you know it's the Apple
0:23:30TV I think will be a nice sort of much
0:23:32ways like many ways like the watch it's
0:23:34just an add-on to the main product that
0:23:37Apple sells like which is the iPhone
0:23:39it's like the iPad in many ways the idea
0:23:41to watch now the Apple TV these are all
0:23:43just add-ons to get di OS ecosystem that
0:23:46exists for the iPhone yeah and and you
0:23:49know and I think the the value that you
0:23:52can get out of being there yeah I think
0:23:54you make a very good point about about
0:23:55that window being fairly narrow I think
0:23:57how narrow it is depends on how easy it
0:24:01is to develop for it and how many people
0:24:03realize how quickly they need to be
0:24:06developing for do they want to be
0:24:07developing for it so with the iPhone
0:24:09that was very very quick really because
0:24:11the iPhone already had a massive
0:24:13installed base there was tons of pent
0:24:15demand to develop for it and people like
0:24:16not the doors down to get there most
0:24:18platforms don't work that way the watch
0:24:21I think has has kind of fizzled out on
0:24:23the watch I think is kind of at a
0:24:25standstill right now I don't know of any
0:24:26really interesting stuff that's happened
0:24:28on the watch
0:24:29last month say you know it seems like
0:24:31not a lot is going on there and we'll
0:24:33talk about that in future episodes I'm
0:24:35sure yeah and the TV is now out but it's
0:24:38starting from an installed base of zero
0:24:39for a product that people are excited
0:24:42about but not so excited that they're
0:24:43gonna go out and like raid all the
0:24:45stores and deplete all the stock on day
0:24:46one so it's gonna that's gonna have a
0:24:49slower build-up and so if that buildup
0:24:51is slower also on the developer supply
0:24:53side where fewer developers are jumping
0:24:55in so soon so quickly then I think you
0:24:57do have a wider window like I would say
0:25:00the biggest sales day for Apple TV apps
0:25:02this year is gonna be the day after
0:25:04Christmas and if you are there I think
0:25:06you can still sell a nice $10 game the
0:25:10day after christmas in in big volumes
0:25:11this year but probably not next year
0:25:14let's see yeah I would say I'm more on
0:25:17the skeptical side of that but I think
0:25:18you're right insofar as that's a
0:25:20reasonable it's going to this the next
0:25:24few months will be interesting for it
0:25:26and I think the Apple TV
0:25:27I will ultimately develop for it though
0:25:30and which is probably a good place to
0:25:31wrap up is to say like I expect to make
0:25:33make apps for it mostly because having a
0:25:36nicely rich
0:25:38it's a checkbox that I can check for
0:25:41form up from some of my applications to
0:25:43say like could make them just that
0:25:44little bit more appealing to somebody if
0:25:46someone was on the fence about
0:25:47downloading my app and they're like oh
0:25:48it'll work for the Apple TV awesome then
0:25:51it's like that little little thing but
0:25:53it's not a priority for me insofar as I
0:25:55don't think it's gonna ever be a primary
0:25:57driver for my business it's like same as
0:25:59the watch I make watch apps for a lot of
0:26:01my apps mostly just so that it's like if
0:26:02someone if for the narrow group of
0:26:04people for that's all they needed to go
0:26:06over the edge then it was worthwhile for
0:26:08me but in and of itself it's probably
0:26:10not yeah and that that could be a whole
0:26:12beside right there
0:26:12and I I totally agree with everything
0:26:15you said that I'm also I expect to to
0:26:18launch Xcode for the first time to make
0:26:19an Apple TV app probably this week I'd
0:26:21like to see how easy it is to get
0:26:23overcast or run on it but again it's
0:26:25like it's it's kind of a value add to
0:26:27use a business term I'm sorry it's kind
0:26:29of that for overcast on iOS in general
0:26:31rather than like I don't expect to make
0:26:34a lot of money on the Apple TV by itself
0:26:35but anyway we are running out of time
0:26:38this week so we want to keep the show
0:26:39nice and short so people can listen to
0:26:40it quickly and don't feel overloaded by
0:26:42it so
0:26:43let's wrap it up this week David thank
0:26:46you I guess
0:26:47I don't know we never done an ending
0:26:48before we're gonna have a song so what
0:26:50are we gonna do
0:26:51just stop probably just stop all right
0:26:53thanks thanks for listening whoever's
0:26:55listening to this and hopefully we will
0:26:57see you again for the next episode yep
0:26:59see you under the radar