Under the Radar 111: Universal Mac Apps?
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welcome to under the radar a show about
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independent iOS app development I'm
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Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under
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the radar is never longer than 30
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minutes so let's get started so before
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we dive into our actual main topic for
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today I just wanted to have a brief
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I guess programming note that we are
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also we've started to publish these
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episodes on YouTube as well as our
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regular RSS syndication means and this
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is mostly just an experiment we're not
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changing anything about the core show
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it's just something you know we're
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continuing on relay continuing to
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publish via RSS and mp3 like that is the
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main that is the show but this is an
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experiment that we're trying so I just
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wanted to mention it in case that is a
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preferred mechanism for you that if you
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like you know listening to things via
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YouTube for whatever reason that is
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something that's there there'll be a
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link in the show notes or I'm sure if
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you just go to youtube and search for
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under-the-radar you'll you'll find it so
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I just wanted to mention that briefly so
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please like comment and subscribe like
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comment subscribe smash that like button
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do all those things hit the bell I think
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you're supposed to hit a bell I'm not
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ready there a bell there - there's a bow
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is that different bums up I think it's
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different from like or a thumbs up like
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I think thumbs up is liking and if the
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Bell is wanting if you want
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notifications I think I wanna you and
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hit that Bell different from subscribing
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yeah I mean if there's any button
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underneath something and it's positive
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go ahead and press any of you push it
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three times just in case like you can go
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back to all of our like you know 100 and
◼
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whatever episodes do it on all exactly
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go ahead and do it for all of the other
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all of our past episodes and maybe leave
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some comments yeah anyway so our main
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topic today is we're going to talk
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through this week there was a article
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published on Bloomberg by mark Berman
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which is you know the way many of these
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Apple news things start and basically he
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has a tip a lead a rumor that Apple is
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working on a secret project codenamed
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marzipan which is a a a project to
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create a unified system for iOS and Mac
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run together and this is something that
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we've talked about I was looking up and
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we way back in the early days of the
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show even we were talking about some of
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the challenges of being Iowa's
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developers and coming to the Mac and you
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know wishing for there to be an easier
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path and so you know if this actually is
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which in a certain sense like whenever I
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saw this it's like it seems eventually
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this was going to happen you know to use
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the infinite time scale argument like
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this was somewhat inevitable that
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eventually Apple was going to
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consolidate their platforms and if you
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know the rumors true and they're going
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to be doing it in you know next summer
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probably would be their goal you know
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with WDC iOS 12 on the next version of
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Mac OS like it's going to be if that's
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actually true like this is a really
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interesting thing and I think it will
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create a lot of interesting
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opportunities for you know for
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development I think it would be really
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interesting from a learning like the
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abilities that you get from learning how
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to make Apple apps that suddenly you can
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make them on multiple platforms and
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distribute them in potentially in
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different ways I think there's a lot of
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implications potentially on the business
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side and is probably mixed news for
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existing Mac developers that suddenly
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you know being a all the skills and
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Deveaux things that you have from being
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a Mac developer maybe slightly less
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significant or unique so anyway it
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seemed like an interesting thing to kind
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of unpack given you know given our
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history with this topic and you know
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there's a huge disclaimer that this is
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just a rumor published in one article
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literally today as we record like an
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hour so so this is not only like you
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know unabashedly our hot take on it and
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we haven't had a whole lot of time to
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think about it and we have no no
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additional information but also it's
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simply one article from mark ermine and
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his track record has been okay but not
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perfect so especially you know recently
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it seems like it's kind of getting worse
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honestly but you know so take this all
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with a grain of salt this is a rumor
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this is not fact this has not been
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confirmed or commented on by Apple and
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probably won't be for some time if ever
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so all that said I am soup
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excited about this so like to me you
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know I'm an iOS developer I happen to
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have made a couple of little mac apps
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but it was like pulling teeth because I
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am NOT an app kit expert
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I am NOT a Mac development expert even
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though I have used the Mac for a very
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long time I have not developed for it
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really and in any serious capacity ever
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I've done little toy things but that's
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that's about it so for me when I program
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on the Mac it feels first of all feels
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very antiquated and in some ways not
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everything but in some ways because app
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kit is a much older API than UI kit it
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has a lot more back Zhu Ike it was
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created in part from the lessons they
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learned from app kit like ten years
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earlier or whatever it was so you know
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app kit is very very cumbersome for me
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as an iOS developer to use because it's
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I take this thing but that I'm familiar
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with and change a lot of how it works
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add a whole bunch of stuff you have to
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deal with make a lot of stuff different
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for no good reason by modern standards
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like maybe it was that way for some time
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or forever ago but you know now it's
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like if you look at what the needs are
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now for these platforms like a lot of
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things are just different for for no
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good reason anymore or for legacy
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reasons that that no longer apply or
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shouldn't need to apply and so ab kit
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development is very slow very cumbersome
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for iOS developers and because of that
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it's also just expensive you know and in
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the time the time it takes and the
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resources it takes if you have to hire
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Mac programmers there are way fewer of
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them than there are I Oh s programmers
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so it's it's probably more expensive for
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big companies as well and the Mac user
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base is smaller than the iOS user base
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by a good amount and so the result of
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this has been so far that iOS developers
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big and small which basically means all
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app developers these days like pretty
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much every major business and service
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has iOS apps almost every major
◼
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developer either days either ignores the
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Mac completely as a platform for their
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or service or they treat it as a
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second-class citizen because it has
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smaller numbers of people and it's way
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harder and more expensive for most
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people to develop for so this is a
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problem so even if you ignore the
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technical arguments even if fans of apke
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can tell us why it's better in certain
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ways which it is or why it's more
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advanced in a lot of ways which it is or
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why things are done this way for good
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reasons which they are all of that is
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secondary to this massive economics
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problem of there's tons of people
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writing iOS code and who can write iOS
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code it's like this massive like
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universal language now for mobile apps
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because of the market realities of these
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platforms so like every business is
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writing iOS apps but the Mac is like you
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know if we get to it maybe someday or if
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you write a Mac app it's maybe an
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electron app or some other kind of you
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know wrapper or you're like
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cross-platform language where you're
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really just writing like JavaScript or
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web code or something like that and it's
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being run in in WebKit on a Mac which is
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fine you know like big apps like slack
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are done that way it's fine but it's not
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good and there's lots of major downsides
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to that kind of app like especially like
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memory usage and performance stuff like
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that native integration type stuff so
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that's not a great situation to be in
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and also just a lot of apps just don't
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have native apps in the math they just
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use websites it's like all right well
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you can log in to our website and do
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this and I'm just I am a huge example of
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this in my own head obviously you know
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this is exactly how overcast works like
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I don't have a Mac app I have considered
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making a Mac app before there are a
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couple of podcast apps that that have
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made Mac apps and usually they have
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killed them you just like the the other
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indie podcast apps that made Mac
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versions seem to like stop development
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afterwards like it seemed like they just
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like that was too much of a burden and
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it just you know was the last nail in
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the coffin or something and I'm afraid
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of that happening to me if I if I would
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do the same thing because it's a totally
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different platform like if I were to if
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I were to try to port overcast to Mac
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today I could I could very easily just
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copy over and use the core library
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functions of things like the database
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the sync engine and most or all of the
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audio engine because like all those
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low-level frameworks have been unified
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for the most part with not a lot of
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exceptions at least in the way I'm using
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them but the UI would have to be
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completely rewritten from scratch and
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you could make an argument and many
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people have that you should write custom
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UIs from scratch for a completely
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different new platform than than what
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you've written before because and in an
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ideal world that's true in an ideal
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world yes I would write a whole custom
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Mac UI because the Mac is not iOS you
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know controlled controls are totally
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different the environments totally
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different windowing is totally different
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like there's all sorts of major platform
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differences between the two that you
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shouldn't just like be running an iOS
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app in a window on the Mac like that's
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that's not a great way to do this but
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the reality is because developing on the
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Mac is such a huge investment for for an
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established iOS developer and because
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there are way more of us than Mac
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developers and and that's probably going
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to continue to go that direction because
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of this of these economic differences
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the reality is not that we are choosing
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between having good Mac apps and having
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some kind of cross-platform thing the
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reality is that we're choosing between
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having the cross-platform thing or no
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Mac apps and it's not to say that the
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entire Mac App Market will go a way that
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exists today we don't know what this is
◼
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this could be just another option this
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could be like another framework you can
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use you know a platform that you can use
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to develop Mac apps with it as an
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►
alternative to advocate that's how I
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would guess they would do it because
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Apple has a whole bunch of app kit code
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themselves they're not gonna get rid of
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that kid so I think the existing like
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Mac market is fine and they would be
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totally you know totally totally fine to
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keep going in that way I don't think
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this is a threat to them in this short
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term in the long term it probably is but
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I think in the long term it's very clear
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that Apple has not been moving app kit
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forward very aggressively they have not
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been investing heavily into it
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just like the rest of the Mac basically
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and I think the biggest threat honestly
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probably to Mac developers is just the
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devaluing in some ways of their unique
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skill like it reminds me of people who
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were say Fortran developers or COBOL
◼
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developers right like if you have this
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very distinctive skill that if you are a
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app kit genius like that is a unique
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marketable valuable thing right now that
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if a company decides they want a Mac app
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there's not as many people who can do an
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exceptional job of that and in a weird
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way that meat might be slightly devalued
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by this just in the sense that if it's
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now it's something that is possible for
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a broader range of people you know to do
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but I mean the thing is like it's it's a
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weird thing when you start to get into
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like well these apps won't be as good
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potentially which is I think a common
◼
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reaction to this kind of thing it's like
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well they're you know people are just
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gonna make blown up iPhone apps maybe
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I mean in many ways it makes me think of
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the iPad though where I think for years
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the iPad and the way that it was sort of
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technically structured was that while it
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was still UIKit under you know in terms
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of the libraries you were using you know
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you the way that you were encouraged to
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develop an iPad app was that it was a
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completely separate sort of visual fork
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in your application that you would you
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know you would launch into your I've had
◼
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app or we would launch into your iPhone
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app and then with the size classing
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changes and the introduction of the
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slide over and thus you know the one
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quarter with ipad apps and all these
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things that largely went away I think
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they there was the encouragement started
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to become that it's it's like being a an
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adaptable iPhone app is good enough and
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is probably sufficient for most
◼
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situations and may not be optimized that
◼
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when you are running that app on you
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know a big on the biggest where for the
◼
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12 inch iPad pro like it's not going to
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be ideal potentially but it works and it
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will be there and it's certainly better
◼
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than just having the like the 2x iPhone
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blow-up version which was what you know
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the situation we found ourselves in
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before and I expect we would have a
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moving to the Mac where you know most if
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you if your app has an iPad app imagine
◼
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running that iPad app on a Mac and you
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►
are probably pretty close to something
◼
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that is very usable workable like would
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feel not and it may not feel native in
◼
►
the sense of what we consider native now
◼
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but the reality is from probably for an
◼
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increasing number of people what feel is
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native and natural is iOS and the Mac is
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the foreign thing and it could even be
◼
►
reassuring and encouraging to somebody
◼
►
who comes to you know if they come to
◼
►
the Mac and the Mac feels like iOS like
◼
►
the thing they know that may actually be
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a positive rather than a negative for
◼
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them and so I think the like dismissing
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this in any way for like it's like oh
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it's going to lead to these kind of you
◼
►
know these shovel where you know I
◼
►
iPhone apps they're just gonna be blown
◼
►
up onto the screen or you know running
◼
►
in teeny little windows it's like maybe
◼
►
but like having something like if
◼
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suddenly they're now being a million new
◼
►
apps available for the Mac like that
◼
►
that would be I think like there's no
◼
►
world in which that's a bad thing
◼
►
I don't think like having that
◼
►
opportunity like I like that as
◼
►
something you know maybe they won't work
◼
►
wonderfully maybe it's not perfect but
◼
►
it's not like the Mac is this
◼
►
flourishing ecosystem that is you know
◼
►
is continuing to grow and develop and
◼
►
attract new developers you know had you
◼
►
know in droves it's like no it's not and
◼
►
that it's like I think this is a it's
◼
►
easy to perhaps get stuck on the ideal
◼
►
sense of what pop you could imagine
◼
►
versus the pragmatic reality of if Apple
◼
►
went down this road if they made it
◼
►
really easy for iOS developers to
◼
►
essentially just add like you know this
◼
►
app can run on the Mac and when it's in
◼
►
the Mac it has maybe a slightly
◼
►
different size class but otherwise like
◼
►
it's pretty much just the same like
◼
►
that's pretty cool to me like I'm on
◼
►
board with that I think that would be
◼
►
really interesting and overall like it
◼
►
just creates so much more opportunity
◼
►
and it creates such a value an increased
◼
►
value in learning how to make Iowa you
◼
►
know iOS apps or UI kid or whatever the
◼
►
new thing is it's like the that that all
◼
►
that skill and development that we've
◼
►
developed now suddenly becomes that much
◼
►
more valuable and interesting we respond
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to fresh books for their support of this
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show so you mentioned a minute ago the
◼
►
the idea of being ideal versus pragmatic
◼
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and I think this is this is the overall
◼
►
theme of this of this kind of concept
◼
►
like assuming this is real or or you
◼
►
know if this happens real versus
◼
►
pragmatic is a is an argument that a lot
◼
►
of people have trouble with because a
◼
►
lot like it's it seems unfair or unjust
◼
►
or non-ideal to two especially for
◼
►
people who really care a lot which is
◼
►
pretty pretty common in the Mac fan
◼
►
community because that's the kind of
◼
►
people who historically have loved Apple
◼
►
products cuz Apple really cared a lot
◼
►
but it's it's very common like mental
◼
►
friction ticket over that like sometimes
◼
►
the best solution is actually the most
◼
►
pragmatic one which might not be the the
◼
►
objectively like best quality one or the
◼
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one that you want or the one that you
◼
►
think should be like everyone article
◼
►
forever ago my blog called right versus
◼
►
pragmatic that was actually about
◼
►
bathroom trashcan placement but but this
◼
►
is you know it's a similar argument
◼
►
which is like you can make a good
◼
►
argument that what should happen is
◼
►
everyone who wants to make a mac app
◼
►
should do it like the most like native
◼
►
original old-school way which is app kit
◼
►
sorry classic my people that's I know
◼
►
this is not old-school to you but you
◼
►
know app kit is old-school these days
◼
►
and and you can make a great argument
◼
►
that all Mac apps should be app kit and
◼
►
should be fully native and should be
◼
►
designed from scratch for the Mac with
◼
►
the Mac in mind and you're right that
◼
►
should be the case but the reality is
◼
►
different the reality is that the Mac is
◼
►
a neglected platform by a lot of people
◼
►
these days including on many levels
◼
►
Apple you know Apple is not able to keep
◼
►
up with their own apps doing very well
◼
►
on the Mac anymore you know Apple
◼
►
versions of of their cross-platform apps
◼
►
the Mac versions like photos usually
◼
►
have fewer features or you know or like
◼
►
no it's like these are fewer features or
◼
►
they have more bugs or you know or they
◼
►
don't even really take advantage fully
◼
►
of the Mac itself or they're just kind
◼
►
of weird designs that never get touched
◼
►
like reminders and so even Apple can't
◼
►
keep up with their own apps their own
◼
►
first party apps on this platform even
◼
►
they are having trouble maintaining
◼
►
these two different platforms and
◼
►
justifying the effort it takes to to you
◼
►
know move the Mac forward meaningfully
◼
►
so if they're if are only you know the
◼
►
the ideal choice is everyone should
◼
►
invest infinitely into the Mac until
◼
►
everything can be great but that isn't
◼
►
one of our choices in reality in reality
◼
►
our choices are well here's how people
◼
►
actually work here's the actual
◼
►
economics actual trade-offs that are
◼
►
involved here and so our actual choice
◼
►
is between moving the direction like
◼
►
this rumor which is a more unified UI
◼
►
framework more unified app platform
◼
►
between Mac and iOS or having the Mac
◼
►
continue to languish having a lot more
◼
►
apps switch to like you know the WebKit
◼
►
electron kind of style where everything
◼
►
is non native anyway and bad
◼
►
performing and a huge ram hog which
◼
►
makes your max suck more like that's the
◼
►
alternative here it's it's not the
◼
►
alternative is not that we're gonna you
◼
►
know educate the world into using app
◼
►
kit that's not that ship has sailed
◼
►
that's not going to happen so if these
◼
►
are our options which newsflash they are
◼
►
I'd rather have the option that gives us
◼
►
more Mac apps than the option that gives
◼
►
us fewer crappier ones and I think -
◼
►
it's also this creates so many
◼
►
interesting possibilities like the in
◼
►
some of them are kind of tangential but
◼
►
like for me I'm kind of excited about
◼
►
the positive being able to ship iOS apps
◼
►
without needing a sandbox or app review
◼
►
potentially that's interesting like
◼
►
suddenly that like I mean it's so so you
◼
►
know that all of the apps for the most
◼
►
part that I've ever shipped have gone
◼
►
have to go through app review if go you
◼
►
know are from the App Store and that
◼
►
constrains and limits the types of
◼
►
things that I can do the types of risks
◼
►
I want to take you know like I have been
◼
►
bit by app review enough times that you
◼
►
know there's a certain consciousness and
◼
►
carefulness that I have to adopt when
◼
►
I'm working on my apps
◼
►
it's kind of interesting that if for me
◼
►
to be able to use the skills I have at
◼
►
this point potentially to ship apps you
◼
►
know if I would hope anyway that if you
◼
►
know if Apple did something like this
◼
►
they wouldn't be you know only available
◼
►
you'd only be you know somehow able to
◼
►
run these apps if they were came from
◼
►
the Mac App Store like hopefully you
◼
►
would be able to just run them independe
◼
►
independe anew as Mac apps you know with
◼
►
the developer ID code signing you know
◼
►
that kind of that that level of security
◼
►
that I could just you know sign it
◼
►
myself put it out on my website and
◼
►
distribute it like that's a really
◼
►
interesting opportunity and possibility
◼
►
and allows for new things and like
◼
►
that's really cool to me like those
◼
►
types of things are not restrict goal of
◼
►
this but as I creates these new
◼
►
opportunities and I just I love I love
◼
►
situations that it's like you create it
◼
►
it takes something that is existing and
◼
►
creates new opportunities for it then I
◼
►
don't exactly know like if tomorrow
◼
►
Apple announced this platform then it's
◼
►
like you know we've added this great new
◼
►
can with relatively little effort make a
◼
►
well your existing iOS apps run nicely
◼
►
and natively on the Mac like I don't
◼
►
know exactly what I would do I would
◼
►
give some serious thought to what I
◼
►
could do with that because there's a lot
◼
►
of interesting things that I think
◼
►
become possible in that world and I
◼
►
think that I could imagine wanting to
◼
►
try and experiment with in a bit more of
◼
►
a creative way and it's nice to not have
◼
►
it over the back of my mind well this
◼
►
has to go through app review this has to
◼
►
you know be conformant with all of the
◼
►
app review stuff and so if it if I now
◼
►
have this you know this alternative
◼
►
place that I can go in experiment that's
◼
►
really cool too and a lot of the initial
◼
►
reaction has also focused on user
◼
►
pricing expectations and and things like
◼
►
devaluing a Mac apps to iOS app levels
◼
►
and this is certainly a reasonable
◼
►
concern for people to have but I think I
◼
►
kind of think a combination of two
◼
►
conflicting viewpoints either a it won't
◼
►
do that but be that ship has already
◼
►
sailed and that already has happened you
◼
►
know the Mac justifies higher prices
◼
►
today for a lot of apps not because they
◼
►
were difficult to write but but because
◼
►
or you know not that I assume Africa
◼
►
developers wouldn't classify it as
◼
►
difficult but you know what I mean like
◼
►
not because they were written an app kit
◼
►
that's not why they're expensive
◼
►
compared to iOS apps and you know and I
◼
►
think if you look at the actual pricing
◼
►
history of a lot of Mac apps there's
◼
►
already been downward pressure on
◼
►
pricing by by quite a lot and for quite
◼
►
a long time ever since the iOS App Store
◼
►
shipped at all so I think that ship has
◼
►
already sailed to a large degree and if
◼
►
if there is already pressure on your app
◼
►
to get its price down that pressure will
◼
►
still be there if there wasn't already
◼
►
pressure on your app to get its price
◼
►
down well first of all you probably
◼
►
aren't charging enough but second of all
◼
►
the reason why Mac apps have been able
◼
►
to charge good money is often because
◼
►
they actually deliver meaningful value
◼
►
to people in a way that they are willing
◼
►
to pay for and so that's things like
◼
►
apps people use to get their work done
◼
►
very specialized apps that
◼
►
there really aren't good alternatives
◼
►
for apps that save people significant
◼
►
amounts of time in their day and you
◼
►
know like that's the reason why app
◼
►
prices have been pushed down is not
◼
►
because Apple won't give us you know
◼
►
trials or upgrades or whatever it is in
◼
►
the App Store like whatever we're
◼
►
complaining about that year that's not
◼
►
the reason why prices have been pushed
◼
►
down the reason is because on iOS
◼
►
there's tons of developers so there's
◼
►
tons of competition and most developers
◼
►
expect to be able to make money from
◼
►
from just good work regardless of how
◼
►
much you value it delivers to the
◼
►
customer on the Mac the apps that make
◼
►
money are not just any Mac apps they're
◼
►
apps that like you know I'm willing to
◼
►
pay like 50 bucks for an app that helps
◼
►
me produce podcast every week because
◼
►
that's my job I'm willing I'm willing to
◼
►
pay good money for tools like I think I
◼
►
think my my get app was like 80 bucks I
◼
►
consider that a great value paint code
◼
►
my icon drawing app I think was a
◼
►
hundred that was also a great value you
◼
►
know the the apps that I use to get my
◼
►
job done or that save me significant
◼
►
time are valuable and are worth paying
◼
►
for and if this iOS you know to Mac
◼
►
crossover app thing happens that will
◼
►
still be the case the only risk to
◼
►
pricing on it on the large scale I think
◼
►
is that this will bring a lot more
◼
►
developers to the platform and so there
◼
►
will just be more competition but I
◼
►
think you know history of the world has
◼
►
proven that that's generally a good
◼
►
thing even if it might not be good for
◼
►
certain people who are there now who
◼
►
have had the platform more to themselves
◼
►
and have kind of locked up the whole
◼
►
market just by the you know difficulty
◼
►
or obscurity of the platform you know as
◼
►
part of a commuting factor if you now
◼
►
have more competition more people can
◼
►
develop Mac apps yeah that might not be
◼
►
good for like the handful of people who
◼
►
are there already but it's really good
◼
►
for the users and for pretty much
◼
►
everyone else and all those new
◼
►
developers who can now make careers here
◼
►
where they weren't before so that those
◼
►
are the concerns but I think and I think
◼
►
those are you know either unwarranted or
◼
►
missing the big picture and I think too
◼
►
if you're if your business if it's
◼
►
stated sustainability is
◼
►
fragile to the degree that in ink the
◼
►
introduction of additional competitors
◼
►
makes it fall apart yeah like you were
◼
►
in a bad position to start with and like
◼
►
I feeI really have genuine sympathy for
◼
►
people who find themselves in that
◼
►
situation I've been in that situation
◼
►
like early days of the eye I mean early
◼
►
days of being an iOS developer like wait
◼
►
you know whatever eight years ago it was
◼
►
really like I could make good money from
◼
►
being in the App Store just because
◼
►
there weren't that many other apps in
◼
►
so being one of them was great but
◼
►
eventually like that gravy train came
◼
►
you know came to an end and I had to
◼
►
adapt and had to move on and that
◼
►
process has been difficult and that
◼
►
process has not always been comfortable
◼
►
but I think that is the reality and it's
◼
►
the understanding that you know the
◼
►
position I found myself in back then was
◼
►
not because of something that I was
◼
►
entitled to or had you know uniquely
◼
►
achieved it's like it was it was more a
◼
►
circumstance of timing of luck of being
◼
►
the right place at the right time
◼
►
and eventually that time changed and I
◼
►
think it'll be the same thing here and
◼
►
it's like it's just going to be this
◼
►
question of fine you know you're finding
◼
►
a way to bridge the gap and it's like
◼
►
well if you're an existing Mac app and
◼
►
you have like if anything you have this
◼
►
great head start because you can
◼
►
presumably make apps that still stand
◼
►
out and that are still better than an
◼
►
app that is not really you know is not
◼
►
coming from somebody with the you know
◼
►
that length of experience even if it's
◼
►
you are still you know developing an iOS
◼
►
or whatever the equivalent you know
◼
►
framework that this is going to be you
◼
►
know I would imagine and expect that if
◼
►
you are a lifelong Mac developer and
◼
►
Jewish and you'd start developing a new
◼
►
Mac app with these tools it should be
◼
►
better it should be more informed have
◼
►
more you know have standout in a way
◼
►
that would you know give it an advantage
◼
►
but the reality is yeah it's like if
◼
►
it's like you could imagine the over the
◼
►
word it's like well people are just
◼
►
gonna expect to get the mac app for free
◼
►
when they get them to get the iPhone app
◼
►
and it's like yeah probably
◼
►
they already expect that they're ready
◼
►
they already do and this is just in one
◼
►
other the next form of that and this is
◼
►
this is the next place this is going to
◼
►
happen and that's not great that's
◼
►
uncomfortable but I think it's also in
◼
►
some ways it's necessary for the
◼
►
platform to move forward and so it's
◼
►
really sad and tricky and complicated
◼
►
and I have great sympathy for people
◼
►
they find themselves in the situation
◼
►
but that's you know that that's where
◼
►
that that's where this tide is rising
◼
►
too and we're just going to have to you
◼
►
know get in our boats and hope for the
◼
►
thanks for listening everybody I'm gonna
◼
►
talk to you next week bye