Under the Radar

◼   ► welcome to under the radar a show about

◼   ► independent iOS app development I'm

◼   ► Marco Arment and I'm David Smith under

◼   ► the radar is never longer than 30

◼   ► minutes so let's get started so before

◼   ► we dive into our actual main topic for

◼   ► today I just wanted to have a brief

◼   ► I guess programming note that we are

◼   ► also we've started to publish these

◼   ► episodes on YouTube as well as our

◼   ► regular RSS syndication means and this

◼   ► is mostly just an experiment we're not

◼   ► changing anything about the core show

◼   ► it's just something you know we're

◼   ► continuing on relay continuing to

◼   ► publish via RSS and mp3 like that is the

◼   ► main that is the show but this is an

◼   ► experiment that we're trying so I just

◼   ► wanted to mention it in case that is a

◼   ► preferred mechanism for you that if you

◼   ► like you know listening to things via

◼   ► YouTube for whatever reason that is

◼   ► something that's there there'll be a

◼   ► link in the show notes or I'm sure if

◼   ► you just go to youtube and search for

◼   ► under-the-radar you'll you'll find it so

◼   ► I just wanted to mention that briefly so

◼   ► please like comment and subscribe like

◼   ► comment subscribe smash that like button

◼   ► do all those things hit the bell I think

◼   ► you're supposed to hit a bell I'm not

◼   ► ready there a bell there - there's a bow

◼   ► is that different bums up I think it's

◼   ► different from like or a thumbs up like

◼   ► I think thumbs up is liking and if the

◼   ► Bell is wanting if you want

◼   ► notifications I think I wanna you and

◼   ► hit that Bell different from subscribing

◼   ► yeah I mean if there's any button

◼   ► underneath something and it's positive

◼   ► go ahead and press any of you push it

◼   ► three times just in case like you can go

◼   ► back to all of our like you know 100 and

◼   ► whatever episodes do it on all exactly

◼   ► go ahead and do it for all of the other

◼   ► all of our past episodes and maybe leave

◼   ► some comments yeah anyway so our main

◼   ► topic today is we're going to talk

◼   ► through this week there was a article

◼   ► published on Bloomberg by mark Berman

◼   ► which is you know the way many of these

◼   ► Apple news things start and basically he

◼   ► has a tip a lead a rumor that Apple is

◼   ► working on a secret project codenamed

◼   ► marzipan which is a a a project to

◼   ► create a unified system for iOS and Mac

◼   ► apps

◼   ► run together and this is something that

◼   ► we've talked about I was looking up and

◼   ► we way back in the early days of the

◼   ► show even we were talking about some of

◼   ► the challenges of being Iowa's

◼   ► developers and coming to the Mac and you

◼   ► know wishing for there to be an easier

◼   ► path and so you know if this actually is

◼   ► a thing

◼   ► which in a certain sense like whenever I

◼   ► saw this it's like it seems eventually

◼   ► this was going to happen you know to use

◼   ► the infinite time scale argument like

◼   ► this was somewhat inevitable that

◼   ► eventually Apple was going to

◼   ► consolidate their platforms and if you

◼   ► know the rumors true and they're going

◼   ► to be doing it in you know next summer

◼   ► probably would be their goal you know

◼   ► with WDC iOS 12 on the next version of

◼   ► Mac OS like it's going to be if that's

◼   ► actually true like this is a really

◼   ► interesting thing and I think it will

◼   ► create a lot of interesting

◼   ► opportunities for you know for

◼   ► development I think it would be really

◼   ► interesting from a learning like the

◼   ► abilities that you get from learning how

◼   ► to make Apple apps that suddenly you can

◼   ► make them on multiple platforms and

◼   ► distribute them in potentially in

◼   ► different ways I think there's a lot of

◼   ► implications potentially on the business

◼   ► side and is probably mixed news for

◼   ► existing Mac developers that suddenly

◼   ► you know being a all the skills and

◼   ► Deveaux things that you have from being

◼   ► a Mac developer maybe slightly less

◼   ► significant or unique so anyway it

◼   ► seemed like an interesting thing to kind

◼   ► of unpack given you know given our

◼   ► history with this topic and you know

◼   ► there's a huge disclaimer that this is

◼   ► just a rumor published in one article

◼   ► literally today as we record like an

◼   ► hour so so this is not only like you

◼   ► know unabashedly our hot take on it and

◼   ► we haven't had a whole lot of time to

◼   ► think about it and we have no no

◼   ► additional information but also it's

◼   ► simply one article from mark ermine and

◼   ► his track record has been okay but not

◼   ► perfect so especially you know recently

◼   ► it seems like it's kind of getting worse

◼   ► honestly but you know so take this all

◼   ► with a grain of salt this is a rumor

◼   ► this is not fact this has not been

◼   ► confirmed or commented on by Apple and

◼   ► probably won't be for some time if ever

◼   ► so all that said I am soup

◼   ► excited about this so like to me you

◼   ► know I'm an iOS developer I happen to

◼   ► have made a couple of little mac apps

◼   ► but it was like pulling teeth because I

◼   ► am NOT an app kit expert

◼   ► I am NOT a Mac development expert even

◼   ► though I have used the Mac for a very

◼   ► long time I have not developed for it

◼   ► really and in any serious capacity ever

◼   ► I've done little toy things but that's

◼   ► that's about it so for me when I program

◼   ► on the Mac it feels first of all feels

◼   ► very antiquated and in some ways not

◼   ► everything but in some ways because app

◼   ► kit is a much older API than UI kit it

◼   ► has a lot more back Zhu Ike it was

◼   ► created in part from the lessons they

◼   ► learned from app kit like ten years

◼   ► earlier or whatever it was so you know

◼   ► app kit is very very cumbersome for me

◼   ► as an iOS developer to use because it's

◼   ► I take this thing but that I'm familiar

◼   ► with and change a lot of how it works

◼   ► add a whole bunch of stuff you have to

◼   ► deal with make a lot of stuff different

◼   ► for no good reason by modern standards

◼   ► like maybe it was that way for some time

◼   ► or forever ago but you know now it's

◼   ► like if you look at what the needs are

◼   ► now for these platforms like a lot of

◼   ► things are just different for for no

◼   ► good reason anymore or for legacy

◼   ► reasons that that no longer apply or

◼   ► shouldn't need to apply and so ab kit

◼   ► development is very slow very cumbersome

◼   ► for iOS developers and because of that

◼   ► it's also just expensive you know and in

◼   ► the time the time it takes and the

◼   ► resources it takes if you have to hire

◼   ► Mac programmers there are way fewer of

◼   ► them than there are I Oh s programmers

◼   ► so it's it's probably more expensive for

◼   ► big companies as well and the Mac user

◼   ► base is smaller than the iOS user base

◼   ► by a good amount and so the result of

◼   ► this has been so far that iOS developers

◼   ► big and small which basically means all

◼   ► app developers these days like pretty

◼   ► much every major business and service

◼   ► has iOS apps almost every major

◼   ► developer either days either ignores the

◼   ► Mac completely as a platform for their

◼   ► or service or they treat it as a

◼   ► second-class citizen because it has

◼   ► smaller numbers of people and it's way

◼   ► harder and more expensive for most

◼   ► people to develop for so this is a

◼   ► problem so even if you ignore the

◼   ► technical arguments even if fans of apke

◼   ► can tell us why it's better in certain

◼   ► ways which it is or why it's more

◼   ► advanced in a lot of ways which it is or

◼   ► why things are done this way for good

◼   ► reasons which they are all of that is

◼   ► secondary to this massive economics

◼   ► problem of there's tons of people

◼   ► writing iOS code and who can write iOS

◼   ► code it's like this massive like

◼   ► universal language now for mobile apps

◼   ► because of the market realities of these

◼   ► platforms so like every business is

◼   ► writing iOS apps but the Mac is like you

◼   ► know if we get to it maybe someday or if

◼   ► you write a Mac app it's maybe an

◼   ► electron app or some other kind of you

◼   ► know wrapper or you're like

◼   ► cross-platform language where you're

◼   ► really just writing like JavaScript or

◼   ► web code or something like that and it's

◼   ► being run in in WebKit on a Mac which is

◼   ► fine you know like big apps like slack

◼   ► are done that way it's fine but it's not

◼   ► good and there's lots of major downsides

◼   ► to that kind of app like especially like

◼   ► memory usage and performance stuff like

◼   ► that native integration type stuff so

◼   ► that's not a great situation to be in

◼   ► and also just a lot of apps just don't

◼   ► have native apps in the math they just

◼   ► use websites it's like all right well

◼   ► you can log in to our website and do

◼   ► this and I'm just I am a huge example of

◼   ► this in my own head obviously you know

◼   ► this is exactly how overcast works like

◼   ► I don't have a Mac app I have considered

◼   ► making a Mac app before there are a

◼   ► couple of podcast apps that that have

◼   ► made Mac apps and usually they have

◼   ► killed them you just like the the other

◼   ► indie podcast apps that made Mac

◼   ► versions seem to like stop development

◼   ► afterwards like it seemed like they just

◼   ► like that was too much of a burden and

◼   ► it just you know was the last nail in

◼   ► the coffin or something and I'm afraid

◼   ► of that happening to me if I if I would

◼   ► do the same thing because it's a totally

◼   ► different platform like if I were to if

◼   ► I were to try to port overcast to Mac

◼   ► today I could I could very easily just

◼   ► copy over and use the core library

◼   ► functions of things like the database

◼   ► the sync engine and most or all of the

◼   ► audio engine because like all those

◼   ► low-level frameworks have been unified

◼   ► for the most part with not a lot of

◼   ► exceptions at least in the way I'm using

◼   ► them but the UI would have to be

◼   ► completely rewritten from scratch and

◼   ► you could make an argument and many

◼   ► people have that you should write custom

◼   ► UIs from scratch for a completely

◼   ► different new platform than than what

◼   ► you've written before because and in an

◼   ► ideal world that's true in an ideal

◼   ► world yes I would write a whole custom

◼   ► Mac UI because the Mac is not iOS you

◼   ► know controlled controls are totally

◼   ► different the environments totally

◼   ► different windowing is totally different

◼   ► like there's all sorts of major platform

◼   ► differences between the two that you

◼   ► shouldn't just like be running an iOS

◼   ► app in a window on the Mac like that's

◼   ► that's not a great way to do this but

◼   ► the reality is because developing on the

◼   ► Mac is such a huge investment for for an

◼   ► established iOS developer and because

◼   ► there are way more of us than Mac

◼   ► developers and and that's probably going

◼   ► to continue to go that direction because

◼   ► of this of these economic differences

◼   ► the reality is not that we are choosing

◼   ► between having good Mac apps and having

◼   ► some kind of cross-platform thing the

◼   ► reality is that we're choosing between

◼   ► having the cross-platform thing or no

◼   ► Mac apps and it's not to say that the

◼   ► entire Mac App Market will go a way that

◼   ► exists today we don't know what this is

◼   ► this could be just another option this

◼   ► could be like another framework you can

◼   ► use you know a platform that you can use

◼   ► to develop Mac apps with it as an

◼   ► alternative to advocate that's how I

◼   ► would guess they would do it because

◼   ► Apple has a whole bunch of app kit code

◼   ► themselves they're not gonna get rid of

◼   ► that kid so I think the existing like

◼   ► Mac market is fine and they would be

◼   ► totally you know totally totally fine to

◼   ► keep going in that way I don't think

◼   ► this is a threat to them in this short

◼   ► term in the long term it probably is but

◼   ► I think in the long term it's very clear

◼   ► that Apple has not been moving app kit

◼   ► forward very aggressively they have not

◼   ► been investing heavily into it

◼   ► just like the rest of the Mac basically

◼   ► and I think the biggest threat honestly

◼   ► probably to Mac developers is just the

◼   ► devaluing in some ways of their unique

◼   ► skill like it reminds me of people who

◼   ► were say Fortran developers or COBOL

◼   ► developers right like if you have this

◼   ► very distinctive skill that if you are a

◼   ► app kit genius like that is a unique

◼   ► marketable valuable thing right now that

◼   ► if a company decides they want a Mac app

◼   ► there's not as many people who can do an

◼   ► exceptional job of that and in a weird

◼   ► way that meat might be slightly devalued

◼   ► by this just in the sense that if it's

◼   ► now it's something that is possible for

◼   ► a broader range of people you know to do

◼   ► but I mean the thing is like it's it's a

◼   ► weird thing when you start to get into

◼   ► like well these apps won't be as good

◼   ► potentially which is I think a common

◼   ► reaction to this kind of thing it's like

◼   ► well they're you know people are just

◼   ► gonna make blown up iPhone apps maybe

◼   ► that's true

◼   ► I mean in many ways it makes me think of

◼   ► the iPad though where I think for years

◼   ► the iPad and the way that it was sort of

◼   ► technically structured was that while it

◼   ► was still UIKit under you know in terms

◼   ► of the libraries you were using you know

◼   ► you the way that you were encouraged to

◼   ► develop an iPad app was that it was a

◼   ► completely separate sort of visual fork

◼   ► in your application that you would you

◼   ► know you would launch into your I've had

◼   ► app or we would launch into your iPhone

◼   ► app and then with the size classing

◼   ► changes and the introduction of the

◼   ► slide over and thus you know the one

◼   ► quarter with ipad apps and all these

◼   ► things that largely went away I think

◼   ► they there was the encouragement started

◼   ► to become that it's it's like being a an

◼   ► adaptable iPhone app is good enough and

◼   ► is probably sufficient for most

◼   ► situations and may not be optimized that

◼   ► when you are running that app on you

◼   ► know a big on the biggest where for the

◼   ► 12 inch iPad pro like it's not going to

◼   ► be ideal potentially but it works and it

◼   ► will be there and it's certainly better

◼   ► than just having the like the 2x iPhone

◼   ► blow-up version which was what you know

◼   ► the situation we found ourselves in

◼   ► before and I expect we would have a

◼   ► similar thing

◼   ► moving to the Mac where you know most if

◼   ► you if your app has an iPad app imagine

◼   ► running that iPad app on a Mac and you

◼   ► are probably pretty close to something

◼   ► that is very usable workable like would

◼   ► feel not and it may not feel native in

◼   ► the sense of what we consider native now

◼   ► but the reality is from probably for an

◼   ► increasing number of people what feel is

◼   ► native and natural is iOS and the Mac is

◼   ► the foreign thing and it could even be

◼   ► reassuring and encouraging to somebody

◼   ► who comes to you know if they come to

◼   ► the Mac and the Mac feels like iOS like

◼   ► the thing they know that may actually be

◼   ► a positive rather than a negative for

◼   ► them and so I think the like dismissing

◼   ► this in any way for like it's like oh

◼   ► it's going to lead to these kind of you

◼   ► know these shovel where you know I

◼   ► iPhone apps they're just gonna be blown

◼   ► up onto the screen or you know running

◼   ► in teeny little windows it's like maybe

◼   ► but like having something like if

◼   ► suddenly they're now being a million new

◼   ► apps available for the Mac like that

◼   ► would be awesome

◼   ► that would be I think like there's no

◼   ► world in which that's a bad thing

◼   ► I don't think like having that

◼   ► opportunity like I like that as

◼   ► something you know maybe they won't work

◼   ► wonderfully maybe it's not perfect but

◼   ► it's not like the Mac is this

◼   ► flourishing ecosystem that is you know

◼   ► is continuing to grow and develop and

◼   ► attract new developers you know had you

◼   ► know in droves it's like no it's not and

◼   ► that it's like I think this is a it's

◼   ► easy to perhaps get stuck on the ideal

◼   ► sense of what pop you could imagine

◼   ► versus the pragmatic reality of if Apple

◼   ► went down this road if they made it

◼   ► really easy for iOS developers to

◼   ► essentially just add like you know this

◼   ► app can run on the Mac and when it's in

◼   ► the Mac it has maybe a slightly

◼   ► different size class but otherwise like

◼   ► it's pretty much just the same like

◼   ► that's pretty cool to me like I'm on

◼   ► board with that I think that would be

◼   ► really interesting and overall like it

◼   ► just creates so much more opportunity

◼   ► and it creates such a value an increased

◼   ► value in learning how to make Iowa you

◼   ► know iOS apps or UI kid or whatever the

◼   ► new thing is it's like the that that all

◼   ► that skill and development that we've

◼   ► developed now suddenly becomes that much

◼   ► more valuable and interesting we respond

◼   ► to this week by fresh books to all the

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◼   ► to fresh books comm slash radar and

◼   ► enter under the radar in the how did you

◼   ► hear about us section thank you so much

◼   ► to fresh books for their support of this

◼   ► show so you mentioned a minute ago the

◼   ► the idea of being ideal versus pragmatic

◼   ► and I think this is this is the overall

◼   ► theme of this of this kind of concept

◼   ► like assuming this is real or or you

◼   ► know if this happens real versus

◼   ► pragmatic is a is an argument that a lot

◼   ► of people have trouble with because a

◼   ► lot like it's it seems unfair or unjust

◼   ► or non-ideal to two especially for

◼   ► people who really care a lot which is

◼   ► pretty pretty common in the Mac fan

◼   ► community because that's the kind of

◼   ► people who historically have loved Apple

◼   ► products cuz Apple really cared a lot

◼   ► but it's it's very common like mental

◼   ► friction ticket over that like sometimes

◼   ► the best solution is actually the most

◼   ► pragmatic one which might not be the the

◼   ► the like you know

◼   ► objectively like best quality one or the

◼   ► one that you want or the one that you

◼   ► think should be like everyone article

◼   ► forever ago my blog called right versus

◼   ► pragmatic that was actually about

◼   ► bathroom trashcan placement but but this

◼   ► is you know it's a similar argument

◼   ► which is like you can make a good

◼   ► argument that what should happen is

◼   ► everyone who wants to make a mac app

◼   ► should do it like the most like native

◼   ► original old-school way which is app kit

◼   ► sorry classic my people that's I know

◼   ► this is not old-school to you but you

◼   ► know app kit is old-school these days

◼   ► and and you can make a great argument

◼   ► that all Mac apps should be app kit and

◼   ► should be fully native and should be

◼   ► designed from scratch for the Mac with

◼   ► the Mac in mind and you're right that

◼   ► should be the case but the reality is

◼   ► different the reality is that the Mac is

◼   ► a neglected platform by a lot of people

◼   ► these days including on many levels

◼   ► Apple you know Apple is not able to keep

◼   ► up with their own apps doing very well

◼   ► on the Mac anymore you know Apple

◼   ► versions of of their cross-platform apps

◼   ► the Mac versions like photos usually

◼   ► have fewer features or you know or like

◼   ► no it's like these are fewer features or

◼   ► they have more bugs or you know or they

◼   ► don't even really take advantage fully

◼   ► of the Mac itself or they're just kind

◼   ► of weird designs that never get touched

◼   ► like reminders and so even Apple can't

◼   ► keep up with their own apps their own

◼   ► first party apps on this platform even

◼   ► they are having trouble maintaining

◼   ► these two different platforms and

◼   ► justifying the effort it takes to to you

◼   ► know move the Mac forward meaningfully

◼   ► so if they're if are only you know the

◼   ► the ideal choice is everyone should

◼   ► invest infinitely into the Mac until

◼   ► everything can be great but that isn't

◼   ► one of our choices in reality in reality

◼   ► our choices are well here's how people

◼   ► actually work here's the actual

◼   ► economics actual trade-offs that are

◼   ► involved here and so our actual choice

◼   ► is between moving the direction like

◼   ► this rumor which is a more unified UI

◼   ► framework more unified app platform

◼   ► between Mac and iOS or having the Mac

◼   ► continue to languish having a lot more

◼   ► apps switch to like you know the WebKit

◼   ► electron kind of style where everything

◼   ► is non native anyway and bad

◼   ► performing and a huge ram hog which

◼   ► makes your max suck more like that's the

◼   ► alternative here it's it's not the

◼   ► alternative is not that we're gonna you

◼   ► know educate the world into using app

◼   ► kit that's not that ship has sailed

◼   ► that's not going to happen so if these

◼   ► are our options which newsflash they are

◼   ► I'd rather have the option that gives us

◼   ► more Mac apps than the option that gives

◼   ► us fewer crappier ones and I think -

◼   ► it's also this creates so many

◼   ► interesting possibilities like the in

◼   ► some of them are kind of tangential but

◼   ► like for me I'm kind of excited about

◼   ► the positive being able to ship iOS apps

◼   ► without needing a sandbox or app review

◼   ► potentially that's interesting like

◼   ► suddenly that like I mean it's so so you

◼   ► know that all of the apps for the most

◼   ► part that I've ever shipped have gone

◼   ► have to go through app review if go you

◼   ► know are from the App Store and that

◼   ► constrains and limits the types of

◼   ► things that I can do the types of risks

◼   ► I want to take you know like I have been

◼   ► bit by app review enough times that you

◼   ► know there's a certain consciousness and

◼   ► carefulness that I have to adopt when

◼   ► I'm working on my apps

◼   ► it's kind of interesting that if for me

◼   ► to be able to use the skills I have at

◼   ► this point potentially to ship apps you

◼   ► know if I would hope anyway that if you

◼   ► know if Apple did something like this

◼   ► they wouldn't be you know only available

◼   ► you'd only be you know somehow able to

◼   ► run these apps if they were came from

◼   ► the Mac App Store like hopefully you

◼   ► would be able to just run them independe

◼   ► independe anew as Mac apps you know with

◼   ► the developer ID code signing you know

◼   ► that kind of that that level of security

◼   ► that I could just you know sign it

◼   ► myself put it out on my website and

◼   ► distribute it like that's a really

◼   ► interesting opportunity and possibility

◼   ► and allows for new things and like

◼   ► that's really cool to me like those

◼   ► types of things are not restrict goal of

◼   ► this but as I creates these new

◼   ► opportunities and I just I love I love

◼   ► situations that it's like you create it

◼   ► it takes something that is existing and

◼   ► creates new opportunities for it then I

◼   ► don't exactly know like if tomorrow

◼   ► Apple announced this platform then it's

◼   ► like you know we've added this great new

◼   ► thing you know you

◼   ► can with relatively little effort make a

◼   ► well your existing iOS apps run nicely

◼   ► and natively on the Mac like I don't

◼   ► know exactly what I would do I would

◼   ► give some serious thought to what I

◼   ► could do with that because there's a lot

◼   ► of interesting things that I think

◼   ► become possible in that world and I

◼   ► think that I could imagine wanting to

◼   ► try and experiment with in a bit more of

◼   ► a creative way and it's nice to not have

◼   ► it over the back of my mind well this

◼   ► has to go through app review this has to

◼   ► you know be conformant with all of the

◼   ► app review stuff and so if it if I now

◼   ► have this you know this alternative

◼   ► place that I can go in experiment that's

◼   ► really cool too and a lot of the initial

◼   ► reaction has also focused on user

◼   ► pricing expectations and and things like

◼   ► devaluing a Mac apps to iOS app levels

◼   ► and this is certainly a reasonable

◼   ► concern for people to have but I think I

◼   ► kind of think a combination of two

◼   ► conflicting viewpoints either a it won't

◼   ► do that but be that ship has already

◼   ► sailed and that already has happened you

◼   ► know the Mac justifies higher prices

◼   ► today for a lot of apps not because they

◼   ► were difficult to write but but because

◼   ► or you know not that I assume Africa

◼   ► developers wouldn't classify it as

◼   ► difficult but you know what I mean like

◼   ► not because they were written an app kit

◼   ► that's not why they're expensive

◼   ► compared to iOS apps and you know and I

◼   ► think if you look at the actual pricing

◼   ► history of a lot of Mac apps there's

◼   ► already been downward pressure on

◼   ► pricing by by quite a lot and for quite

◼   ► a long time ever since the iOS App Store

◼   ► shipped at all so I think that ship has

◼   ► already sailed to a large degree and if

◼   ► if there is already pressure on your app

◼   ► to get its price down that pressure will

◼   ► still be there if there wasn't already

◼   ► pressure on your app to get its price

◼   ► down well first of all you probably

◼   ► aren't charging enough but second of all

◼   ► the reason why Mac apps have been able

◼   ► to charge good money is often because

◼   ► they actually deliver meaningful value

◼   ► to people in a way that they are willing

◼   ► to pay for and so that's things like

◼   ► apps people use to get their work done

◼   ► very specialized apps that

◼   ► there really aren't good alternatives

◼   ► for apps that save people significant

◼   ► amounts of time in their day and you

◼   ► know like that's the reason why app

◼   ► prices have been pushed down is not

◼   ► because Apple won't give us you know

◼   ► trials or upgrades or whatever it is in

◼   ► the App Store like whatever we're

◼   ► complaining about that year that's not

◼   ► the reason why prices have been pushed

◼   ► down the reason is because on iOS

◼   ► there's tons of developers so there's

◼   ► tons of competition and most developers

◼   ► expect to be able to make money from

◼   ► from just good work regardless of how

◼   ► much you value it delivers to the

◼   ► customer on the Mac the apps that make

◼   ► money are not just any Mac apps they're

◼   ► apps that like you know I'm willing to

◼   ► pay like 50 bucks for an app that helps

◼   ► me produce podcast every week because

◼   ► that's my job I'm willing I'm willing to

◼   ► pay good money for tools like I think I

◼   ► think my my get app was like 80 bucks I

◼   ► consider that a great value paint code

◼   ► my icon drawing app I think was a

◼   ► hundred that was also a great value you

◼   ► know the the apps that I use to get my

◼   ► job done or that save me significant

◼   ► time are valuable and are worth paying

◼   ► for and if this iOS you know to Mac

◼   ► crossover app thing happens that will

◼   ► still be the case the only risk to

◼   ► pricing on it on the large scale I think

◼   ► is that this will bring a lot more

◼   ► developers to the platform and so there

◼   ► will just be more competition but I

◼   ► think you know history of the world has

◼   ► proven that that's generally a good

◼   ► thing even if it might not be good for

◼   ► certain people who are there now who

◼   ► have had the platform more to themselves

◼   ► and have kind of locked up the whole

◼   ► market just by the you know difficulty

◼   ► or obscurity of the platform you know as

◼   ► part of a commuting factor if you now

◼   ► have more competition more people can

◼   ► develop Mac apps yeah that might not be

◼   ► good for like the handful of people who

◼   ► are there already but it's really good

◼   ► for the users and for pretty much

◼   ► everyone else and all those new

◼   ► developers who can now make careers here

◼   ► where they weren't before so that those

◼   ► are the concerns but I think and I think

◼   ► those are you know either unwarranted or

◼   ► missing the big picture and I think too

◼   ► if you're if your business if it's

◼   ► stated sustainability is

◼   ► fragile to the degree that in ink the

◼   ► introduction of additional competitors

◼   ► makes it fall apart yeah like you were

◼   ► in a bad position to start with and like

◼   ► I feeI really have genuine sympathy for

◼   ► people who find themselves in that

◼   ► situation I've been in that situation

◼   ► like early days of the eye I mean early

◼   ► days of being an iOS developer like wait

◼   ► you know whatever eight years ago it was

◼   ► really like I could make good money from

◼   ► being in the App Store just because

◼   ► there weren't that many other apps in

◼   ► the App Store

◼   ► so being one of them was great but

◼   ► eventually like that gravy train came

◼   ► you know came to an end and I had to

◼   ► adapt and had to move on and that

◼   ► process has been difficult and that

◼   ► process has not always been comfortable

◼   ► but I think that is the reality and it's

◼   ► the understanding that you know the

◼   ► position I found myself in back then was

◼   ► not because of something that I was

◼   ► entitled to or had you know uniquely

◼   ► achieved it's like it was it was more a

◼   ► circumstance of timing of luck of being

◼   ► the right place at the right time

◼   ► and eventually that time changed and I

◼   ► think it'll be the same thing here and

◼   ► it's like it's just going to be this

◼   ► question of fine you know you're finding

◼   ► a way to bridge the gap and it's like

◼   ► well if you're an existing Mac app and

◼   ► you have like if anything you have this

◼   ► great head start because you can

◼   ► presumably make apps that still stand

◼   ► out and that are still better than an

◼   ► app that is not really you know is not

◼   ► coming from somebody with the you know

◼   ► that length of experience even if it's

◼   ► you are still you know developing an iOS

◼   ► or whatever the equivalent you know

◼   ► framework that this is going to be you

◼   ► know I would imagine and expect that if

◼   ► you are a lifelong Mac developer and

◼   ► Jewish and you'd start developing a new

◼   ► Mac app with these tools it should be

◼   ► better it should be more informed have

◼   ► more you know have standout in a way

◼   ► that would you know give it an advantage

◼   ► but the reality is yeah it's like if

◼   ► it's like you could imagine the over the

◼   ► word it's like well people are just

◼   ► gonna expect to get the mac app for free

◼   ► when they get them to get the iPhone app

◼   ► and it's like yeah probably

◼   ► they already expect that they're ready

◼   ► they already do and this is just in one

◼   ► other the next form of that and this is

◼   ► this is the next place this is going to

◼   ► happen and that's not great that's

◼   ► uncomfortable but I think it's also in

◼   ► some ways it's necessary for the

◼   ► platform to move forward and so it's

◼   ► really sad and tricky and complicated

◼   ► and I have great sympathy for people

◼   ► they find themselves in the situation

◼   ► but that's you know that that's where

◼   ► that that's where this tide is rising

◼   ► too and we're just going to have to you

◼   ► know get in our boats and hope for the

◼   ► best

◼   ► thanks for listening everybody I'm gonna

◼   ► talk to you next week bye