0:00:01[Music]
0:00:05hello hi John hi Mel run yeah John how's
0:00:10it going good how are you good I'm
0:00:13diddling a little bit with some new
0:00:15audio and you're my first victim oh yeah
0:00:21this could get real weird I don't know
0:00:23what's happening what's happening there
0:00:25oh I'm trying a new interface to my
0:00:28computer tell me about it tell me more
0:00:30about no I don't get too far is it an is
0:00:31it an A to D converter
0:00:33yeah no it's D D D all the way down just
0:00:36like brothers-in-arms uh-huh am I
0:00:38allowed to you know cuz I turned you
0:00:40down okay
0:00:41all right well I'm not peeking I got the
0:00:43limiter dipswitch I hit the always
0:00:45switch I'm always peeking here and I
0:00:47don't understand why I've got this
0:00:49little audio interface that has little
0:00:51little meters on it and every time I
0:00:53look down it looks right and then I look
0:00:56away and I looked back and I've and I've
0:00:59had a peak I've got some I've got red
0:01:03and I'm and I was like I'm talking right
0:01:05now talk this as loud as I get I'm not
0:01:07peeking
0:01:08yeah no I'm like a monkey with a slide
0:01:09rule lalala I got this thing and I got
0:01:12my 23 ban meter dingus that tells me how
0:01:15I'm doing well bands like a Nakamichi
0:01:20cereal it's pretty sweet anyways it's
0:01:27the most wonderful time we having a good
0:01:30week it can't be that bad oh man I did
0:01:45an unusual thing what tell me well you
0:01:48know it was some kind of podcast
0:01:49conference here in town yes is that the
0:01:51pod Conn pod con and I was put on by I
0:01:59think Hank green and his brother Frank
0:02:01green he's from the internet from the
0:02:04internet mm-hm and and the the McElroy
0:02:08brothers McElroy's and no one called me
0:02:14spit out my beverage I'm
0:02:17called you nobody called me now what now
0:02:20some some fans called me some people
0:02:22that were coming through town that were
0:02:24like I'm coming to the podcast con oh
0:02:26and you got coming at you both ways
0:02:28people unempowered to have you up on the
0:02:30stage they're saying hey where's John
0:02:31Roderick that's right I had a I had a
0:02:33local journalist who said hey can you
0:02:35can you know can you introduce me to the
0:02:38mek Elroy's mm-hmm I'm gonna get so many
0:02:40letters from them from the McIlroy's
0:02:43first and foremost but I think I think
0:02:50they've I don't think they communicate
0:02:51anymore I think I think they've had it
0:02:53hmm well so apparently like they
0:02:55mentioned me from the stage at their
0:02:57show did they always they always thank
0:02:59you at the end of their I don't listen
0:03:00to their show but they always thank you
0:03:02at the end of every episode and they say
0:03:03we're to get a copy of your album it's
0:03:06wonderful that they do that but no one
0:03:07invited me to the pod con that's
0:03:09happening in my own town and podcast
0:03:12about the Wicked Witch and nobody has
0:03:14the witch come yeah thank you
0:03:16[Music]
0:03:17monkeys so all so but the thing is you
0:03:22know when you ask me like how's my week
0:03:23going all that was last week that ended
0:03:26last night this is a brand new week
0:03:28today is a this is all new yeah that's
0:03:31true that's true but I had a friend in
0:03:34town who was here to see the con and I
0:03:36just got up early a and went out of the
0:03:41house B to meet her for coffee you're
0:03:45kidding me before the show hang on
0:03:48oh yes you sure you sure you didn't get
0:03:51your clock wrong on this very day where
0:03:53you record with me at 10:00 a.m. Pacific
0:03:55time you were already up and you've
0:03:57already been out of the house and talk
0:03:58to somebody was close I got up I started
0:04:02the truck and let it warm up I got out
0:04:04with a glove and wiped the frost off the
0:04:07windows drove to Randy's I had a
0:04:12chicken-fried steak in eggs oh my god
0:04:15and then back in the saddle at 10:03 you
0:04:21ate a chicken-fried steak this morning
0:04:24and you're still awake
0:04:25I already I'm just and I'm going to a
0:04:27radio appearance after our show and
0:04:29going to my psychiatrist no and then
0:04:32after that I think I'm going to dinner
0:04:35like fancy dinner somebody's doing all
0:04:37these things in one day and one single
0:04:39day so making up for all the other days
0:04:41where I never do anything
0:04:43it's a catch-up day well you can't catch
0:04:46up oh man I've written down
0:04:48chicken-fried steak cuz I need to talk
0:04:50to you about food and sleep oh my god
0:04:52I'm so proud of you what a day and then
0:04:55only you shook it off you shook it off
0:04:56even though the McElroy's and the greens
0:04:58is is did not invite you to their con
0:05:00you see you shook it off and you got you
0:05:02got right back in the fray got back on
0:05:03course that's right that's right boots
0:05:06on the ground on the way home I started
0:05:10singing as you sometimes do I started
0:05:13singing in the air tonight Phil
0:05:15Collins's first solo hit its magnum opus
0:05:19in many ways and you know of course I
0:05:23was having the regular thoughts that you
0:05:24have about it what an unusual single
0:05:27what a what an extraordinary choice to
0:05:31have as a first single who would have
0:05:33thought yeah at this weird song and then
0:05:37I did the thing that I very seldom do
0:05:39which as I said you know even though
0:05:42today is not like Phil Collins day I I'm
0:05:48gonna spend just like two minutes while
0:05:50I'm sitting at this traffic light to get
0:05:53a little bit more familiar with in the
0:05:55air tonight a song that I feel like I
0:05:56know like at like as well as my own
0:06:00shirt mmm-hmm yeah when I did we've
0:06:04lived in that song for a long time oh
0:06:05four years right yeah
0:06:07up and down with in the air tonight and
0:06:12I went and I looked at the lyrics
0:06:13because I was assuming because in all
0:06:18the years that we've been listening to
0:06:19the song you there's so much story in it
0:06:23and I was assuming that there were some
0:06:27lyrics that I that I didn't know there
0:06:30was some third verse that I'd never
0:06:31really looked at that was gonna that
0:06:35when I read those lyrics I was just
0:06:37gonna be like wow gobsmacked or I was
0:06:40going to be disappointed
0:06:43so I'm sitting at the stoplight I look
0:06:46up in the air tonight lyrics and I read
0:06:49them and I realize oh I know them all
0:06:52yeah there may be less than you even
0:06:54thought yeah I know the lyrics there's
0:06:56only two verses and we could all sing it
0:06:59all the way through right now yeah and
0:07:02and even more of an accomplishment that
0:07:07there's there's nothing in the lyrics
0:07:10you know we all think like oh there he
0:07:13must have witnessed a murder
0:07:14oh yeah around four years that I think
0:07:18has since been don't email me I this
0:07:21three went around for a long time that
0:07:22it was about actually literally watching
0:07:24somebody drown yeah right like watching
0:07:26watching sting killed his first wife or
0:07:28saw Mike ID in 3/4 time yeah please do
0:07:31not write me like that no but it turns
0:07:34out it couldn't you know the language is
0:07:36broad enough he could just be mad at his
0:07:39next-door neighbor this could just be an
0:07:41argument he's having with his sister
0:07:43like if I saw you drowning I wouldn't
0:07:45even lend a hand
0:07:45that's that's the meanest thing in it
0:07:48the rest of it is just like you know
0:07:50what you did you know you know what grin
0:07:54yeah
0:07:56the only the only reason that it is this
0:08:00I mean we just we add all that Menace to
0:08:03it and I think it's in his voice I think
0:08:06here the characteristics of the
0:08:08production don't you think yeah that
0:08:10miss appearance right it's the sound of
0:08:12a foreboding
0:08:14but but anyway so I just came away from
0:08:18that experience I it's not like I've
0:08:19heard the song I it's not like it was on
0:08:21the radio nothing inspired me to do this
0:08:25nowhere
0:08:26yeah I just had some chicken-fried steak
0:08:28and I was like whatever do you cover
0:08:41that that'd be all right it's in line
0:08:48with a lot of songs that are hard to do
0:08:49at karaoke and I think we've talked
0:08:51about this before but there's there's a
0:08:53famous karaoke songs where you think you
0:08:54really think you know the song
0:08:56probably shouldn't do that song because
0:08:58you don't actually you you remember the
0:09:00feel of it but you don't really remember
0:09:02where the stops and starts are and this
0:09:04one you know I'm saying it with this one
0:09:06there's a lot of air and in this tonight
0:09:08you know what I'm saying
0:09:09so this song has a lot of space to it
0:09:12and Atmospheric sitting you know and
0:09:13it's from the time around the time that
0:09:15Peter Gabriel was doing similar
0:09:17production to great success we think
0:09:20about the first three Peter Gabriel
0:09:21albums like they had a real feel to them
0:09:23there were very simples no symbols is
0:09:28that true you know that story you took
0:09:30the symbols away took the symbols away
0:09:31he said gotta play the drums
0:09:33hate that drummers love their cymbals
0:09:35well and I think he was the first one to
0:09:37ever do it yeah I think drummers hate it
0:09:38I think what drummers hate is Peter
0:09:40Gabriel well they're a lot like dogs you
0:09:42know ninety minutes don't forget
0:09:43everything anyway the guy who did who
0:09:52did in the air tonight who did was that
0:09:54face value face value these dances
0:09:58tonight face dances who produced this
0:10:18you padam padam he also the guy was he
0:10:22also Peter Gabriel man I think he was
0:10:24this is this is stuff that if I were
0:10:27reading a copy of tape up magazine
0:10:30mm-hmm
0:10:31I would be like right in there right in
0:10:34the thick of it throwing elbows but
0:10:39sitting here you know sitting here just
0:10:41on my hard stool little toadstool I'm
0:10:44just like doo doo doo da people's first
0:10:47album was produced by Bob Ezrin
0:10:49bob is get over that shit right now come
0:10:53on get out of Dodge so I kind of won I'm
0:10:57pretty happy with that Solsbury Hill
0:10:58business let's let's let's get the guy
0:11:00from kiss see again like you can read
0:11:07and tape up you'd be throwing elbows
0:11:08right now
0:11:09this feels like a tape up article that
0:11:12we should write sorry it's all I took
0:11:14you way out took you out of your
0:11:15experience you've had an amazing morning
0:11:16capping off a really turbulent week I'm
0:11:19sitting here talking to you about
0:11:20English producers shame on me
0:11:22well it's not shame on it's not a
0:11:23situation like that if we if you had
0:11:25given it to the fix if you wanted to
0:11:28talk about the fix yeah that's too hard
0:11:31of a turn you feel no no I feel like I
0:11:33would have made the turn to the fix I
0:11:35couldn't make the turn to kiss no no I
0:11:40met the bob ezrin part is all is all and
0:11:42now we got Steve Lillywhite he says he
0:11:44wouldn't work with the band more than
0:11:45twice but in the case of you two he made
0:11:47an exception for war I feel like I want
0:11:50to and want to be a record producer oh
0:11:54yeah
0:11:55I really do and I don't and when I
0:11:59listen to other people's production on
0:12:03albums even ones that I love even where
0:12:06I love the production as as in my
0:12:11evolution as a musician right when
0:12:12you're young and you're just listening
0:12:13to music as a listener you don't really
0:12:15hear production it's not a thing you're
0:12:17conscious of yeah it's the stuff you're
0:12:19not supposed to notice yeah there's a
0:12:21lot of reverb on there but you don't
0:12:22notice the subtleties of what's covering
0:12:25the musical spectrum yeah you can't hear
0:12:28you can't hear the work of a producer
0:12:29and then we all have I think the same
0:12:32experience which is most of us that are
0:12:35that didn't come up during a hip-hop era
0:12:37who came up during a guitar pop era our
0:12:42first awareness of production comes when
0:12:43we learn about George Martin and you go
0:12:46why the hell are the Beatles so good and
0:12:47it's like oh well the production and
0:12:51then you get schooled on it and then you
0:12:53start hearing the production on a lot of
0:12:55things like on Bohemian Rhapsody and you
0:12:57start hearing the production on then
0:12:59then as you if you're a rock person you
0:13:03start hearing these stories Oh John
0:13:04Bonham wouldn't let him put the
0:13:05microphones close to the drum son oh you
0:13:08know
0:13:09during the making of of those Pink Floyd
0:13:14albums you know they they Roger was an
0:13:18asshole
0:13:19well and it's all like tape loops that
0:13:21Alan Parsons came up with it oh look at
0:13:24the camera he had the pan slowly and
0:13:30gorgeous Dave Gilmour God that guy was
0:13:32handsome he's so wonderful I I did a
0:13:35deep dive on Gilmour the other day but I
0:13:36don't too hard
0:13:38sorry and then then you hear the story
0:13:41about when they were making rumors and
0:13:42they lifted up the tape and they could
0:13:44see through it because they had done
0:13:45something cocaine off of it but then you
0:13:50get into making records like I did and
0:13:53now you're confronted with production as
0:13:56a very real thing that you're like
0:13:59you're learning and deeply engaged in
0:14:02where you're like well wait a minute do
0:14:03we like I had some profound production
0:14:07moments in the early long winters
0:14:10records because I was collaborating with
0:14:12Chris Walla and Chris had a very strong
0:14:16eye hand and come on and Ken
0:14:20Stringfellow no no he's not listen to
0:14:32the podcast well but but I can think
0:14:36back to a couple of key moments in the
0:14:41in the production of that first record
0:14:45where a production choice determined not
0:14:49only the sound of the album but the
0:14:51sound of the band thence forth Wow when
0:14:57I think back on those moments I think
0:15:00back on them as turning points and in at
0:15:03least one case I wish I'd gone the other
0:15:06direction I'm so I'm so curious okay so
0:15:09it's a song is it is it a particular
0:15:12song for the first album
0:15:15it was a sound okay it was a sound that
0:15:19we got and it was in getting this sound
0:15:25and I'll tell you what the sound was
0:15:27mm-hmm the sound was the sound of my
0:15:34Juno 106 roland synthesizer which is a
0:15:39synthesizer that has a lot of you can
0:15:42manipulate a lot of parameters you can
0:15:43make it sound like a lot of things but
0:15:46primarily you make it sound like a like
0:15:48variations on a synthesizer they're good
0:15:50at that they're really good it sounds
0:15:52very like a synthesizer no matter to it
0:15:54and then we ran the synthesizer into a
0:15:59big muff Distortion a big muff fuzz
0:16:03pedal and it created this this wall is
0:16:12extremely pleasing the fat of stick
0:16:22fuzziness like a giant like a giant love
0:16:28Caterpillar came in to the room and
0:16:31wrapped me in its five thousand little
0:16:33stubby green arms and it was like it was
0:16:41a turning point an in-studio turning
0:16:44point where here was this sound which
0:16:47was this like maybe like a Copernicus it
0:16:51was happening in the process of that
0:16:54exactly that that the we were
0:16:57experimenting with a song that did not
0:16:59have a band arrangement Copernicus was
0:17:02this tune then because some of this
0:17:03stuff just for a background it's worth I
0:17:05think it's worth mentioning that some of
0:17:07these have been western states a
0:17:10hurricane songs that you had really if
0:17:13you changed it up quite a lot I mean
0:17:14it's really amazing to think about how
0:17:16many times you play car parts that one
0:17:17way and then made it into this pop song
0:17:19you had reinvented some hurricane songs
0:17:22and then there was new stuff starting
0:17:24from scratch yeah trying to reinvent
0:17:27stuff
0:17:28and and going from a band that was that
0:17:33was like pretty post-grunge hard rock
0:17:38you know the western state hurricanes
0:17:40had big amplifiers and we were allowed
0:17:41band and we were in the studio and we
0:17:44are making this music that was indeed
0:17:48proto proto
0:17:49indie rock maybe not proto but we were
0:17:53certainly in this in the new quiet as
0:17:55the new loud school and i failed to be
0:17:58quiet in new laughs but that was
0:18:02certainly that was the that was the new
0:18:04aesthetic and i hit and so Copernicus
0:18:08used to be a big rock song and we and it
0:18:12wasn't we the only reason we were even
0:18:14doing it is that we didn't have enough
0:18:15songs to make a whole album and I was
0:18:17like well what about Copernicus and I
0:18:19sat down at the piano and I had never
0:18:22played it on the piano before and just
0:18:24sort of tinkering right and in the
0:18:27process of trying stuff out hit upon
0:18:30this sound and it's not it's not like a
0:18:36it's not like we were the first person
0:18:38people never run a synthesizer into a
0:18:39big buff right it's a it's a fairly
0:18:44common thing to try but it it was a
0:18:49sound that I heard in my in my soul
0:18:53because what it sounded like was a
0:18:56really big fat guitar but that had no
0:19:00strumming it was just you could play
0:19:03chords you could make all the
0:19:05transitions but there wasn't any
0:19:06rhythmic aspect to the quartz it's not
0:19:10like Dow now now now now now now now it
0:19:13was just and you could put that in and
0:19:22have guitars on it and base on it and
0:19:26have rhythmic things and underneath it
0:19:29there would be this like not just a low
0:19:32tone but this like kind of just wall
0:19:36this wall of what communicated to me
0:19:40like
0:19:41the biggest raucous sound and I'm
0:19:45sitting in the studio and we're putting
0:19:47this down and my eyes are just as wide
0:19:52as saucers and I'm like reinventing
0:20:00everything in my mind and we you know
0:20:02we're not this isn't like during mixing
0:20:04but but we're kind of far along in the
0:20:08recording and and I'm basically saying I
0:20:14want this on everything okay like you
0:20:21made like pesto for the first time you
0:20:24know everything gets pesto yeah but but
0:20:27it is it is the sound right I mean if
0:20:35you when they were making my bloody
0:20:37Valentines Lovelace he took his jazz
0:20:42master and he ran it in probably two a
0:20:44big muff anyway he was like that's the
0:20:48sound and he put everything that that
0:20:50whammy bar thing kind of helps to find
0:20:52that sound I think of it that way for
0:20:54sure yeah for sure I mean if you if you
0:20:56read the interviews with him at the time
0:20:57he's like we didn't use any synthesizers
0:20:59on this it's very simple actually it
0:21:02sounds amazing to you but you're not
0:21:04thinking straight because it's just like
0:21:07basically two or three tracks of guitar
0:21:09in it it's not this crazy thing the more
0:21:13you listen to it the less you feel like
0:21:15you understand what's going on it's so
0:21:19good but it but but it's it's an example
0:21:21and there are there are hundreds of
0:21:23examples of bands who just like The
0:21:27Strokes hit upon that vocal sound
0:21:30mm-hm and I made that record and so
0:21:36anyway I came into the studio the next
0:21:39day and the the the track that we were
0:21:42the track that this went down on was not
0:21:45Copernicus although Copernicus was where
0:21:47it blow boom
0:21:49what's the one of the dr.dre on it the
0:21:50bone
0:21:52well what song am I thinking of that
0:21:55some unsalted butter right right uh no
0:22:01it was Meany really that this happened
0:22:04on the first time and you know Mimi is a
0:22:06very thick production there's a lot
0:22:08going on in that production but and the
0:22:11thing is I'm I didn't hear this keyboard
0:22:13part being the loudest thing in the mix
0:22:15just that he existed that it was this
0:22:18like that the chords had this additional
0:22:24fatness that would have been a sound
0:22:29like a unifying sound on an album and it
0:22:33would have been a unifying sound of a
0:22:35band whether or not you know like
0:22:42whether or not that sound would have
0:22:44appealed to people more than the sound
0:22:45that we went with I have no idea and I
0:22:48don't it's not a thing that that it's
0:22:52we're speculating about but at the time
0:22:55I was like production because there
0:23:01wasn't a band the long winters weren't a
0:23:03band it wasn't like we were coming in
0:23:05and trying to capture our sound it was
0:23:08like I was in them the rare position of
0:23:11being able to say this is the sound of a
0:23:15new band and I came in the next day and
0:23:19was like let's you know let's call that
0:23:23up and Kris said yeah I what I tried to
0:23:31like make that work and I couldn't
0:23:35really make it work
0:23:38so I recorded over it oh oh that's
0:23:46aggressive for a billing hammer well I
0:23:49mean that was his and and that was you
0:23:52know it it was within the 10-minute
0:23:54period that I had this like production
0:23:57and then on the flip side of it like
0:24:00production
0:24:02because he perceived himself to be the
0:24:04producer and that wasn't where that
0:24:08wasn't the direction he heard it going
0:24:10and we had an argument about it but it
0:24:15was but he had erased it it wasn't like
0:24:19the tracks down at this point no
0:24:22everything was I mean we were we were
0:24:24far enough along in the making of the
0:24:26record that this would have been a this
0:24:29would have been a change of direction
0:24:30and and when you are in a situation like
0:24:35that where you feel like oh well you
0:24:38know we've got to get this done we don't
0:24:41have the time to do this now and you
0:24:43look at it from my perspective 15 years
0:24:46later and you go you know you had all
0:24:48the time in the world to make those
0:24:51decisions like yeah the famous adage
0:24:53right you know about your whole life to
0:24:55make your first record right you only
0:24:57have a year to make your second record
0:24:58right and he didn't you know that wasn't
0:25:04the sound of production that he had in
0:25:07mind and and at that point in his career
0:25:12he didn't see his job as being
0:25:16facilitate the artist as much as his job
0:25:19was be pay a guide to the artist or be a
0:25:30collaborator a co-author
0:25:34so everything that followed from there
0:25:38like the second record I took a much
0:25:41greater hand in in making production
0:25:45decisions for better and for worse
0:25:48because I was learning production and
0:25:51not always you know I at that point kind
0:25:54of needed a mentor anyway like like a
0:25:59lot of things in music as I learned more
0:26:01and more about production and as I heard
0:26:03it more and more then I couldn't listen
0:26:06to a record without hearing the
0:26:07production hearing it in some cases a
0:26:09long time before I was listening to the
0:26:11song
0:26:13until production was my primary path
0:26:21into music and I think I arrived at a
0:26:28place where if the production is if the
0:26:31production doesn't grab me right away I
0:26:33don't want to hear the production now
0:26:36you know like if if like I keep going
0:26:42back to this band always from Canada who
0:26:46I think have great production and the
0:26:49new Portugal demand song I think has
0:26:51great production and I want to listen
0:26:53and you know Beck records have great
0:26:55production I want to listen to the
0:26:56production on those things but like like
0:26:59bad production I it's like listening to
0:27:03a bad podcast I just get a you know my
0:27:08shoulders hunched up I get that like
0:27:09lemon just sucked on a lemon face and I
0:27:14just have to I just have to get out of
0:27:16it I don't want to I don't want to hear
0:27:18it we thought without naming names what
0:27:20do you think of we need to go what
0:27:21you're calling bad production what what
0:27:22is the hallmark of what you consider bad
0:27:24production well how it makes you feel
0:27:27anything with vocoder honor Oh or like
0:27:30auto-tune anything with anything with
0:27:33what I mean vocoder in particular even
0:27:35more than auto-tune is an effect that is
0:27:40now I mean it's considered almost like
0:27:45de rigueur still if you're making a kind
0:27:49of record absolutely I mean that Kanye
0:27:51record that came out I think he works it
0:27:55sometimes well yeah but it was it was
0:27:59superfluous to need uh as he used it on
0:28:04this most recent record and the thing is
0:28:05it's know it no longer I understand that
0:28:07to us to listeners within the auto-tune
0:28:14slash vocoder genre it is as necessary
0:28:18to the sound of the music as distorted
0:28:21guitars are to metal it's just the sound
0:28:24it is the sound of it
0:28:26but I just find it like so dull with it
0:28:31just don't win it as a sound and when I
0:28:38hear it I just go just I'm just I'm out
0:28:42[Music]
0:28:43and you know the same is true of like
0:28:49super super gloss on stuff that I mean
0:28:55and this isn't just coming from a
0:28:57low-fiber spective but what are the
0:28:59where everything has been glossed to the
0:29:02point where there's no it's not even
0:29:04conceivable that there would be
0:29:05imperfection in it and I think you
0:29:08probably have that same feeling like
0:29:10super gloss just puts me out on the
0:29:11sidewalks it's it's it's weird cuz I'm
0:29:15I'm somewhat out of the vernacular on a
0:29:17lot of stuff I mean I'll know like I'll
0:29:19recognize something as part of this like
0:29:20two to three year long trend you know
0:29:24but it's sometimes something comes along
0:29:27that is is very new and you really
0:29:30notice it I mean for vocoder you go back
0:29:32to let's say you know zap and Roger or
0:29:35something where like they or I guess
0:29:37Peter Frampton before that but but zap
0:29:39and Roger turning into a little bit of
0:29:40an art form maybe beat it to death but
0:29:42like they did they did something you
0:29:43know more bounce to the ounce like
0:29:45that's that that is the sound of a
0:29:47vocoder to me it's something like that
0:29:48um and then eventually there will be
0:29:50people who reintroduce it like Cher yeah
0:29:56supposedly started as an accident I
0:29:58think it did and it's it sounds like an
0:30:00accident but I think do you believe in
0:30:02life after love was the thing that
0:30:05turned vocoder from a thing in a memory
0:30:09of the distant past to a thing now that
0:30:12you can't you know you can't turn on the
0:30:13radio without hearing right it felt it
0:30:15felt very modern but I'm thinking about
0:30:17I don't go to deep down a rabbit hole
0:30:20but there's lots of stuff like that
0:30:21where like you just but sometimes
0:30:23somebody is able to take something that
0:30:24seems like it's been pretty tired and
0:30:26mix it up but but it's it is that there
0:30:28is this sense to me of like even in a
0:30:30genre that I'm not super familiar with
0:30:31and this is probably cuz I'm an old man
0:30:34I will tend to tune out rather quickly
0:30:35if it sounds like pretty much all the
0:30:37other stuff I've her
0:30:39mmm-hmm but like for example like I'm
0:30:41not the biggest Bon Iver fan in the
0:30:43world like I'd like his stuff okay but
0:30:45he was on the recently renamed
0:30:47christieelee show last night boy the
0:30:52thing he did was weird
0:30:54I I don't know what he was doing he did
0:30:57the song I don't know he's doing this
0:30:59leet speak for all the titles of his
0:31:01songs but it's something something 45 is
0:31:03the name of this song I don't know what
0:31:05in the hell instrument or instruments
0:31:07he's playing but unless he had brought
0:31:10with them like some exquisitely talented
0:31:14string and winds group I think it must
0:31:17have been I need to find out what
0:31:20instrument he's playing on this because
0:31:21I don't think it's live instruments it
0:31:22could have been it was so tight it was
0:31:24unbelievable but it was weird it was
0:31:26ghostly and it made me really perk up
0:31:27and III sat and I put down what I was
0:31:30doing and I listened to the song like a
0:31:32gentleman and it's something like that
0:31:33you realize that that however he
0:31:35accomplished that it worked like this so
0:31:38he did something really differently and
0:31:39it really caught me and it didn't hurt
0:31:41that the song was also you know it had a
0:31:44really great feel to it so I I don't
0:31:46know I mean I still think there's so
0:31:47much room for something to really catch
0:31:49your ear and spark your feeling that
0:31:51that googly feeling in your gut of like
0:31:54oh this is exciting and new and I'm
0:31:56really glad that somebody went there
0:31:58with this you know that that most recent
0:32:01boniva record which is called 22 comma a
0:32:04million kind of like Portugal is now the
0:32:07man I have and it's an example of a
0:32:11record that i sat with utterly
0:32:14fascinated by the production and to the
0:32:19point that i was yelling at the speakers
0:32:21about it because because listening to it
0:32:27there are astonishing choices being made
0:32:31and you could feel the choices are at
0:32:37least I could feel the choices being
0:32:39made as they went down and and I had
0:32:42that experience of being like yes
0:32:46yes and then you know just like doing
0:32:52that that incredible thing that you want
0:32:54from an artist which is making a choice
0:32:56that both is incredibly gratifying in a
0:33:00way where it feels like obvious slash
0:33:06almost pandering to my basest needs
0:33:08mm-hmm but also completely surprising
0:33:11and not at all what I and it doesn't
0:33:13feel right you know just like Wow
0:33:16awesome like that was it you yes and
0:33:20that's one thing in in this age we're
0:33:22all so much for media especially movies
0:33:24but in many cases music is so if you
0:33:26really I hate to be a karma suck but if
0:33:28you really really keep scratching at the
0:33:30surface you realize how much stuff is
0:33:31based on nostalgia or how much stuff is
0:33:33based on not just a reboot but on like
0:33:35repackaging something really familiar
0:33:37and I felt kind of kind of unmoored
0:33:40listening to that song like I'm not sure
0:33:42what this thing is but it's like
0:33:43listening to Eno back in the day or
0:33:44something we were like what what planet
0:33:46is this from well and and so there's a
0:33:50there's a keyboard the first time I saw
0:33:52it
0:33:53Jonathan Coulton had it and then I
0:33:56started to see it in the hands of a lot
0:33:58of musicians that I respected and it was
0:34:00a it was a thing that people were just
0:34:03pulling out of their bag right we'd be
0:34:05sitting around and I would come this
0:34:07little keyboard and it's smaller then
0:34:09then an sk7 it's this tiny little thing
0:34:15it's like it's longer than a paperback
0:34:17book but thinner than a paperback book
0:34:19and it's and it's and it's beautiful
0:34:21it's made out of like brushed aluminum
0:34:23and it's it's uh it's like a it's just
0:34:30machined so beautifully and it's called
0:34:34a it's called the op1 okay Wow and it's
0:34:44a it's a little just a little synth
0:34:46that's made in Stockholm cause this
0:34:51thing is gorgeous it's gorgeous and it
0:34:55is a synth
0:34:56and it's a sequencer and it like
0:34:59it does all these fun things that are
0:35:09hang on I'm I'm looking up I said I said
0:35:14sk7 but what I meant was sk-1 like a
0:35:17Casio the little caffeine yeah I know
0:35:19but this is teenaged if you wanna Google
0:35:20this is teenage engineering Opie - one
0:35:23and so this is a thing as it looks it
0:35:26looks like it would be difficult to tell
0:35:27if this were a prop in a movie it would
0:35:30be hard to know what decade it's from
0:35:32apart you know what I mean it's it's got
0:35:34a timeless kind of wackadoo digital
0:35:36quality to it it does and it's you know
0:35:39it's very gratifying to have in your
0:35:40hands like when you press down the keys
0:35:42they feel really satisfyingly kind of
0:35:48solid it's it's a small enough to guess
0:35:51that from looking at this it looks like
0:35:52it's just little like like little like
0:35:54the pads on like a cheap laptop no it's
0:35:57not cheap at all it's just it's clicky
0:35:59and it's chunky and it just fit and
0:36:02considering how small it is at that if
0:36:05it fits in a it fits in your like your
0:36:09messenger bag it is surprisingly heavy
0:36:12like it's milled there's no plastic on
0:36:14it like dance it's dense and it's not
0:36:18big so you could it's not like you could
0:36:19sit and like play the grand piano on it
0:36:22but within it it has its own it has all
0:36:26this processing power I can you can loop
0:36:28you there's drums in it you can you can
0:36:31kind of make all kinds of music out of
0:36:34it and Colton pulled it out of his bag
0:36:36and I was like whoa what's that and he
0:36:37was like check it out and he's you know
0:36:39mr. gizmo and so he has pants he'll get
0:36:44these things and he'll play him for a
0:36:45while and then they'll kind of you know
0:36:47they end up on his on his gizmo wall and
0:36:50he uses them for sure but like you know
0:36:53if you've ever seen him on tour right he
0:36:55pulls out something that whatever that
0:36:58crazy is he plays that thing that thing
0:37:05was that thing was a piece of joke
0:37:07comedy equipment that he turned into
0:37:09well like ultimate ultra ultra joke
0:37:12comedy thing
0:37:13anyway so he really knows what he's
0:37:15doing with he does good I'm gonna have
0:37:17to say like I am not much of a musician
0:37:19but watching him play that it looks like
0:37:20there's a million ways that thing could
0:37:22go horribly wrong yeah I mean he's a
0:37:25genius there's no argument stream anyway
0:37:27so I started seeing this op1 get pulled
0:37:29out of bags backstage all the time you
0:37:32know it's the type of thing that Matthew
0:37:33cause suddenly had won and and and the
0:37:38the the problem is it's a thousand bucks
0:37:41and so it was the type of thing that
0:37:45when I first saw it I felt like I gotta
0:37:47get one of those but then it was a
0:37:51thousand bucks which is not cheap and
0:37:55the thing about an sk1 was that it was
0:37:57it was cheap it was cheap when it was
0:37:59new and I mean I used to find them at
0:38:01thrift stores for for five to ten
0:38:03dollars this is a thousand bucks and
0:38:05it's absolutely worth it feels worth it
0:38:07but it turned out that almost everything
0:38:11on that record 22 comma a million were
0:38:17either made with or run through an Opie
0:38:22one wow that is super interesting that
0:38:26little fucking gizmo he and this is you
0:38:30know boney bears whole trip right he
0:38:33made that first record out in his dad's
0:38:35cabin on a on a tape machine made out of
0:38:39a beer bottle and a raccoon tail and and
0:38:44you go like well done like dude well
0:38:47done like creative guy and when this
0:38:51record came out part of the part of my
0:38:53experience of listening to it the first
0:38:54couple times was like oh ho well now
0:38:57you're now you're mister got all the
0:39:00money in the world and so you're just
0:39:04like you got a fare like yeah right
0:39:08you're making you're making like a
0:39:09billion dollar record in a studio you're
0:39:11probably like every day somebody brings
0:39:14in a giant tray of chopped crap all that
0:39:18nobody needs and then the Dark Twisted
0:39:20Fantasy Island he's out there and people
0:39:21just hanging out on the couch for like
0:39:22just months making the album right
0:39:25but in fact it's him with this fucking
0:39:28little thing and and what I was yelling
0:39:33at about the production is that that it
0:39:36was the best kind of yelling at the
0:39:39radio for me now which is that I could
0:39:42feel myself in that chair I could feel
0:39:44myself as the producer of that record
0:39:46and I heard choices that I disagreed
0:39:50with and you know and the thing is
0:39:53they're tiny it's just like no no no no
0:39:55no no don't you put the effect on it the
0:39:58first time then leave it off the second
0:40:01time and when it came back or you could
0:40:03feel it coming back around and I was
0:40:04like you're gonna have that effect on it
0:40:06and that's the wrong choice and it came
0:40:08back around and it didn't have the
0:40:09effect on and I was like no and and I
0:40:12felt it every time it went by and I mean
0:40:15this is like interacting with a widow
0:40:17with a brilliantly produced thing and
0:40:21interacting with it not as a like a
0:40:25passive listener not as somebody that's
0:40:27like how is this Wow what's going but
0:40:29somebody that where I was sitting there
0:40:31like I know I know you agonized over
0:40:35whether or not to do that and in the end
0:40:38you chose to do it and if I were there I
0:40:42would have argued against it and that
0:40:44kind of like that kind of relationship
0:40:48to production is like it is like when
0:40:53you become a musician and you first hear
0:40:54the bass line in god only knows and
0:40:58you're like well now I can't ever hear
0:41:00it without hearing the I can never hear
0:41:02it without hearing that whatever that
0:41:05triangle because I'm because having
0:41:08become conscious of it you can't ever
0:41:11put it back in the box I want to be a
0:41:16producer because I because it's an art
0:41:21that I really identify with like I
0:41:25really I want I don't want to be a
0:41:28producer that is like no I don't I
0:41:31didn't hear that sound so I just erased
0:41:33it I want to be a producer that's like
0:41:35what
0:41:36you know like what do you want and let's
0:41:39find it but then but then advocating for
0:41:44that kind of thing like what if on the
0:41:46second one we didn't do it
0:41:47what if we didn't go back right but so
0:41:50way beyond an engineer but not at the
0:41:53point where you're just like a name that
0:41:54gets slapped on it but you're somebody
0:41:55who could say like here's here's a
0:41:56palette of things that might complement
0:41:58what you've told me you're trying to do
0:42:00like I don't want to be an engineer at
0:42:02all that that aspect of it I know enough
0:42:05about to to say like here's what I'm
0:42:08hearing
0:42:09I want a side chain this so that it only
0:42:13triggers the reverb when it goes above
0:42:15this and the engineer knows what I'm
0:42:18talking about or I mean you know I I
0:42:20want to be able to know the technology
0:42:21enough to be able to say here's what I
0:42:23wanted here's what I mean well almost as
0:42:25a director is - a DP or cinematographer
0:42:28like you say like you go do your thing
0:42:29to go make it make look like this it's
0:42:31the same you know how to do it then you
0:42:33can describe it in the terms that right
0:42:35I mean that's yeah but yeah you get
0:42:36people for that right and but not at all
0:42:40like the slap your name on a thing like
0:42:42I want to be in the trenches with with
0:42:45artists making music because the because
0:42:48it's really hard to do for yourself it's
0:42:51really hard to be the writer/director
0:42:55star and you know and like producer of
0:42:59your own film even if you're the writer
0:43:03director star there's a producer
0:43:05generally and and but breaking into that
0:43:12because there have been quite a few
0:43:15artists who have considered me as the
0:43:18producer I don't mean that they that
0:43:21they call me their producer well but
0:43:23like yeah hey we're in the running for
0:43:25the role right I was in the running to
0:43:28make the record and in and I've only
0:43:30ever recorded I've only ever produced
0:43:32three albums that weren't connected to
0:43:35me one of them was the most popular one
0:43:38was Shelby Earls debut record and I'm
0:43:42super proud of Shelby Earl's debut
0:43:45record burn the boats
0:43:48and I produced a record for a guy named
0:43:50Eric Hauck who is currently the guitar
0:43:53player in Portugal the man and he's a
0:43:56very mercurial guy and he never released
0:43:58it oh man it's a brilliant record and
0:44:02but by which I mean he is a great player
0:44:04and his songs are great but he had he
0:44:08had some he had whatever insecurities
0:44:11about it and then he kind of feels like
0:44:15oh well we made that 10 years ago and
0:44:18it's not really relevant anymore it's
0:44:21like it's a great record it's always
0:44:23relevant and then I produced a record
0:44:26for my niece Elizabeth Roderick that
0:44:29also super proud of I think it's clay
0:44:32imagine it's probably hard to find but
0:44:36you know I was in the running to produce
0:44:38Kathleen Edwards's record and then
0:44:41Kathleen Edwards started dating boney
0:44:44their son and the record label was like
0:44:47well we could pay to have this record
0:44:49made by John Roderick or we could have
0:44:53it made by boney there who is at the at
0:44:56who was at that moment like number one
0:44:59on the charts with a bullet and so I
0:45:02missed out on on producing that crack
0:45:04record and I had a lot of angry things
0:45:08to yell at the speaker's listening to it
0:45:11because he made a lot of choices for her
0:45:15music that I wouldn't have I mean that
0:45:17felt to me like obvious at the time like
0:45:20yeah she's a female singer songwriter
0:45:22with an acoustic guitar sure so you made
0:45:26Yankee Hotel Foxtrot but that's not what
0:45:31I guess what the album wanted no I don't
0:45:34think that's what the songs wanted I
0:45:36don't think that's what she wanted in
0:45:37her life at the time and but you know
0:45:41that was very hard for her to say not
0:45:44sure because shit boney bears producing
0:45:47your record and oh also you know like
0:45:49you're in a relationship with them it's
0:45:50very hard to be like you know I kind of
0:45:53we were half because you know she and I
0:45:55had been talking production we were not
0:45:57halfway along
0:45:58it was like I wanted to make I wanted to
0:46:01make that record sound like the first
0:46:02Pretenders record I've only just hang
0:46:04out with her she's amazing I like her I
0:46:06spent that little bit of time of your
0:46:08house with her boy I like that person
0:46:09she has a lot of deep calm
0:46:12yeah but she's she's fast and funny my
0:46:15god she's fast and funny she is
0:46:17oh she she's she's dynamite and she
0:46:20posted a thing on Instagram yesterday
0:46:22which was she was out walking in the
0:46:25forest behind her house in Ontario and
0:46:30she found like a giant Jackrabbit dead
0:46:33Jackrabbit hanging from a tree not
0:46:35hanging like by its neck but just like
0:46:37draped over a branch here that's not
0:46:39good for property values and she and
0:46:42then she found like a dismembered coyote
0:46:44oh come on she was like so her her life
0:46:56continues to be very interesting you've
0:47:00been thinking about this this has been
0:47:02on your mind you're thinking is this
0:47:03something you think you'd like to do
0:47:05well the problem is the life of a
0:47:07producer is not the life that I want I
0:47:09have a lot of friends that are that are
0:47:11producers that's the career they chose
0:47:13for themselves
0:47:14and I think it's very gratifying work
0:47:17for them but they never see the Sun and
0:47:19they go from one completely encompassing
0:47:24project to the next so they work on
0:47:25something for three weeks where they're
0:47:27just in the studio with these musicians
0:47:31who are like frantically scrambling to
0:47:33try and get their vision down and they
0:47:37stay Shepherd this thing all the way
0:47:39from zero to a fully fledged thing you
0:47:44have to be comfortable with with the
0:47:46idea that like we don't have all the
0:47:48time in the world that that's the take
0:47:50moving on you know all this stuff that's
0:47:53in some ways like anti perfectionism
0:47:56mm-hmm you make choices and you go
0:48:00and you come to the end and you have a
0:48:02finished product and it you know at the
0:48:05beginning of a record it could be any
0:48:07one of a thousand things but at the end
0:48:09of a record it is what it is and you can
0:48:13scrap it and go back and make that
0:48:14record again differently but you
0:48:16probably aren't going to you made it
0:48:18right that's the thing about the first
0:48:19long winter's record at the end it was
0:48:22what it was and because it was a first
0:48:26record it established the tone of the
0:48:28band going forward and I wouldn't want
0:48:35to do that
0:48:35all year long I wouldn't want to make 12
0:48:39records in a year it would just be it's
0:48:41just - it would be overwhelming but I
0:48:46would love to make a record every year
0:48:49but with somebody with somebody or two
0:48:52to records a year where it was like yeah
0:48:54I'm gonna go I mean every time Death Cab
0:48:57goes in to make a new record I'm always
0:48:58like you should have me produce this one
0:49:00and they are records oh yeah they're
0:49:04making one right now no kidding
0:49:08they are always making records and you
0:49:13know their records continually evolve I
0:49:16don't think they understand how
0:49:18fantastic a job I would do as the
0:49:21producer of their album more than pity
0:49:23on that my goodness they should at least
0:49:25least have you in I mean just
0:49:26that's ridiculous well it's not it's not
0:49:29a thing that could ever happen and when
0:49:30I say it they there's like that there's
0:49:33that laugh of like ha ha ha and then a
0:49:36little bit of fear in the eyes that I'm
0:49:38serious yeah like me asking if I can
0:49:40drive right this episode of Roderick on
0:49:46the line is brought to you by
0:49:46Squarespace you learn more about
0:49:49Squarespace right now by visiting
0:49:50squarespace.com Oh friends the many many
0:49:54things that you can do with Squarespace
0:49:55you can do what I'm doing right now you
0:49:57could host a podcast on there isn't that
0:49:58crazy but there's so much more with
0:50:00Squarespace you can create a beautiful
0:50:01website that can turn your cool idea
0:50:03into a whole new site for the world to
0:50:05see you can showcase your work you can
0:50:07create a blog or publish other kinds of
0:50:08text content you can sell products and
0:50:10services of all kinds you can promote
0:50:12your physical or online business
0:50:14and put up photos you can make a gallery
0:50:15you can announce an upcoming event I do
0:50:17that with my ungainly x-men meet up
0:50:19using Squarespace for all of that stuff
0:50:22it does that and so much more
0:50:24and Squarespace does this by giving you
0:50:25oh so much beautiful templates truly
0:50:28beautiful templates they're always
0:50:29adding to these gorgeous templates
0:50:31created by world-class designers you get
0:50:33powerful ecommerce functionality lets
0:50:35you sell whatever you want online of
0:50:36course you could the ability to
0:50:37customize the look and feel of your site
0:50:39your settings your products all of that
0:50:40with just a few clicks that is true and
0:50:42everything is optimized for mobile right
0:50:44out-of-the-box that means your site is
0:50:46gonna look great regardless of the
0:50:48device or dingus upon which it is being
0:50:49viewed
0:50:50Squarespace also has a new way to buy
0:50:52domains you can choose from over 200
0:50:54extensions it's all in there you get
0:50:56analytics that help you grow in real
0:50:58time built in search engine optimization
0:51:01free and secure hosting nothing to patch
0:51:04or upgrade and of course if you ever run
0:51:06into trouble don't worry cuz you get
0:51:07twenty four by seven award-winning
0:51:09customer support you can go out and you
0:51:12can make it make it yourself you can
0:51:13easily create a website by yourself get
0:51:16yourself and maybe even your friends and
0:51:18family out of the web master business
0:51:19you gotta get on this Squarespace it's
0:51:21just the it's a great place to go so
0:51:22please go head over right now you go to
0:51:24Squarespace comm for a free trial and
0:51:26when you're ready to launch you use the
0:51:28offer code ro TL our o TL just like it
0:51:31sounds that'll save you 10% off your
0:51:34first purchase of a website or a domain
0:51:36and as always our thanks to Squarespace
0:51:38for supporting Roderick on the line and
0:51:40all the great shows you're there like no
0:51:52seriously yeah I mean did I mean you
0:51:58have obviously strong feelings about it
0:52:00is that ever a thing that if somebody
0:52:02came to you and said like hey we want
0:52:03Maryland man to produce our album well
0:52:06no but I'm thinking a lot about what
0:52:08you're saying and it's I mean I guess to
0:52:12me it's difficult not to separate it
0:52:14from what I think of as being a film
0:52:15director and both both of those jobs so
0:52:18I mean we could stick to just music but
0:52:19in either case like it really is an
0:52:21impossible task you go into making an
0:52:24album or making a movie I mean
0:52:27you've got to be so crazy to go into
0:52:29that because it is it's it's impossible
0:52:30there's no way to get everything the way
0:52:32everybody wants
0:52:33there's always time limits there's
0:52:34always money limits and if there aren't
0:52:36time in money limits you still might
0:52:37make total shit it's like you but also
0:52:40the personality traits required to be a
0:52:43a good and talented producer are I don't
0:52:48know I marvel at people who can hit all
0:52:51tick all the boxes so you think of
0:52:53somebody who on the one hand really
0:52:55knows who they are I know that sounds
0:52:56silly but somebody who knows who they
0:52:57are they know the edges of their
0:53:00humanity and like okay here's where I
0:53:01stop and the other people begin like
0:53:04really understand like so I mean like
0:53:06honestly to be a truly mature shading
0:53:11into parental character like us like a
0:53:13super dad or a super mom somebody who's
0:53:15really really able to separate
0:53:17themselves from from the process from
0:53:19the people from the product from you
0:53:21know and and and then just the million
0:53:23skills you need inside of that or would
0:53:25benefit from inside of that hobbies' lee
0:53:26having a great year knowing what
0:53:28something wants to be rather than what
0:53:29it is right now being able to help
0:53:31people articulate something they don't
0:53:33know they're even thinking right now
0:53:34being able to as I say bring in a
0:53:36palette that isn't just a bunch of
0:53:38gimmicks and gizmos but to be able to
0:53:40say like well you know this is one thing
0:53:42we could try to do this the ability to
0:53:45as you say keep things moving right like
0:53:48look you like you like you would say
0:53:50with guitar solos' back in the day like
0:53:51we're not gonna do this for TTS this is
0:53:52not hound-dog we're not gonna do this 42
0:53:54times so what's the right amount of time
0:53:55how do you know when you're pushing it
0:53:57too far do you want to do like a
0:53:58finisher in a Kubrick where you just
0:53:59keep doing this until the person wants
0:54:00to kill you or do you say you got three
0:54:02shots give me your best or something
0:54:04else because that's you know how that
0:54:05works I just feel like it's so difficult
0:54:08for me to even concentrate on one and a
0:54:09half things at a time it's amazing to me
0:54:12that that person could be somebody who
0:54:14could for example feel comfortable
0:54:16talking to whoever owns Warner Brothers
0:54:18this week like to be able to talk to the
0:54:20people above you and sort of below you
0:54:22and beside you keep everybody confident
0:54:25that this is on track it's a cask ill
0:54:27set that makes my mind swim and I know
0:54:29you don't have to have all those things
0:54:30you could just be affordable and patient
0:54:33but like to be really good at that
0:54:35requires a set of skills that represents
0:54:37almost everything I'm more of a lot in a
0:54:39person
0:54:40yeah it's a it is a set of skills that
0:54:45is that is I think a lot of people in
0:54:49the music world think it's a set of
0:54:52skills that can be learned because
0:54:54there's so much effort put into software
0:54:58recording software and recording gear of
0:55:03all kinds there are so many boxes there
0:55:05are so many instruction manuals and the
0:55:09era of the home recordists produced
0:55:13thousands and thousands of people who
0:55:16could legitimately describe themselves
0:55:17as producers because they have produced
0:55:20albums on their Mac and as they got you
0:55:27know they read the the data they they
0:55:29tested things out they tried they
0:55:31listened to other records they got
0:55:33really good drum sounds they got really
0:55:35good sounds ultimately they were making
0:55:39they were engineering great records or
0:55:43at least not maybe great records but
0:55:45they were they were able to engineer
0:55:47competently confident yeah even records
0:55:50yeah but the there is like all art a
0:55:55thing that cannot be learned that is
0:55:58feel and is emotion and when you're
0:56:02talking to musicians about making a
0:56:03record or when you're shepherding that
0:56:06process you're dealing with this
0:56:09incredible world of like these are this
0:56:14is in some ways like peak ego moments
0:56:18for people but also the place where they
0:56:21are most vulnerable the music is
0:56:23generally like coming from somewhere
0:56:24inside them that they are maybe not in
0:56:28contact with directly that's why it's
0:56:31coming out as music they're using
0:56:34they're they're using their voices
0:56:35they're using their bodies you're
0:56:39dealing with multiple people multiple
0:56:40and everybody's whether they know it or
0:56:42not maybe doesn't know I was gonna say
0:56:44agenda that's not the right way to put
0:56:45it but you know you're expected to rise
0:56:49above you're paid you're compensated to
0:56:51rise above all of that on some
0:56:53you're empowered by somebody to be the
0:56:55project manager for this piece of art
0:56:56which is a lot of responsibility at a
0:56:59crucial level yes and at a crucial level
0:57:02you need to be right down in the blood
0:57:06and guts of it with people because you
0:57:10know there there are million producers
0:57:12out there who have learned to do it on
0:57:15their Mac and they're sitting in the
0:57:17room and they're recording you and the
0:57:19singer go does it take and goes how was
0:57:21that and the person on the other side
0:57:24goes it was good how did it sound to you
0:57:26mm-hmm
0:57:27and that is not that's about as useful
0:57:30as when I say what do you want for
0:57:31dinner and they say whatever you want
0:57:32that's like well you know I'm asking you
0:57:33because I don't want to have to decide
0:57:34this on my own but you ought to be a
0:57:36great editor right you also so it's one
0:57:38thing and I'm not in any way trying to
0:57:40diminish what I'm calling engineering
0:57:41the the the skills and the mechanics of
0:57:44spending years learning how to make
0:57:47sounds in a studio is amazing and
0:57:50certainly you know that through the
0:57:52compressors through the board all
0:57:53through the entire stack that is an
0:57:55entire skill set but then to have mostly
0:57:57mastered that plus be able to say let's
0:58:00leave out that second chorus or let's
0:58:02have the bass do this here or could we
0:58:04try it this way or why don't you go
0:58:05record this in the bathroom or like
0:58:07we're really just being able to say that
0:58:08song is not up to snuff or let's try
0:58:10that vocal one more time that's a very
0:58:13different skill from being able to make
0:58:14something that that doesn't overdrive
0:58:16the speakers what I mean to be able to
0:58:19go from competent to like you're getting
0:58:21into this very hazy cloudy world of like
0:58:24it's very much value judgments well let
0:58:27alone let alone being able to go into
0:58:32the room sit down with a singer and go
0:58:35you know you're singing this from from a
0:58:40place that isn't like reading as
0:58:42completely believable because it feels
0:58:45like you're singing it from from a space
0:58:50where you're examining the you're
0:58:53examining the protagonist
0:58:55and what the song and the song is
0:58:58written in the language as though the
0:59:00protagonist truly believed his situation
0:59:04and not that he was being examined by
0:59:06someone smarter than him so huh you're
0:59:09the singer you've written this song it
0:59:11is in this person's voice and now you're
0:59:13afraid to be that person in the studio
0:59:15and you're thinking you're smarter than
0:59:17that person and now you're here singing
0:59:19it with your tongue in your cheek and
0:59:21it's not reading and to be able to save
0:59:24that kind of thing to a singer in a
0:59:27language because different singers will
0:59:28be able to hear that differently and you
0:59:32need to know the language of the person
0:59:34you're talking to to be able to say
0:59:36something like that to them where they
0:59:39go right and then to be able to say one
0:59:44way that you can accomplish that is to
0:59:45stop having your voice coming from
0:59:47behind your eyeballs and start trying to
0:59:50make your voice come from between your
0:59:52nipples mm-hmm and then walk away you
0:59:55know and and be able to connect the
0:59:58intellectual
0:59:58intellectual
1:00:00perience of like you're not singing this
1:00:02truthfully and then be able to give them
1:00:05a physiological cue that sounds crazy to
1:00:07someone that isn't a singer be like
1:00:09you're putting the music behind your
1:00:10eyes and you need to put it from behind
1:00:12your ears and you say that to a singer
1:00:15you say that to a group of people and
1:00:17they're like what I mean that's like
1:00:19sounds woowoo or it just sounds idiotic
1:00:21but if you say it to a singer and
1:00:24they're in there
1:00:25in front of the microphone and they are
1:00:27like oh shit I was putting it behind my
1:00:29eyes and then they put it behind their
1:00:30ears which wasn't a thing that they'd
1:00:32ever thought of before and it works you
1:00:34know that stuff so it's not like so
1:00:37comparing that job to an engineer is
1:00:40like saying well this guy works on the
1:00:43this guy is like a genius at making this
1:00:46racecar motor run really great so that
1:00:50means that he will probably also be a
1:00:52great team owner who's like and also a
1:00:57great driving instructor and recruiter
1:00:59of drivers who he has to persuade to be
1:01:02on his team yeah they're just it's like
1:01:04it's utterly different but the problem
1:01:06is that that guys who have taught
1:01:08themselves engineering on their max feel
1:01:11insulted by this the suggestion that
1:01:16that what they're doing isn't production
1:01:19because it is and within you know within
1:01:22the hip-hop world if you just make beats
1:01:25you're called a producer like that's
1:01:28actually the name of that job like it's
1:01:32like oh I'm the producer and basically
1:01:34it's because the track is just somebody
1:01:37rhyming over what you built your the 808
1:01:40estab a you know and you're probably not
1:01:46in that job sitting there working with
1:01:50the vocalist like about whether he's
1:01:53singing it from behind his eyes or not
1:01:55and there are you know like I'm sure
1:01:58that if you're working with Rick Rubin
1:02:00or you're working with dr. Dre they are
1:02:01involved at that level but there's a lot
1:02:04of music that you can just tell it's one
1:02:06of the things when you listen to stuff
1:02:08on the radio as a as a casual listener
1:02:11you're not often conscious of the fact
1:02:13that
1:02:13the problem you're having with a song
1:02:16the reason you don't like it is that the
1:02:18singer isn't isn't believable it within
1:02:22the music that they themselves wrote and
1:02:26it's because they got divorced from they
1:02:30got divorced from what they wrote
1:02:31at some point which isn't hard to do
1:02:35it's easy to get divorced it's why I
1:02:38can't listen to modern country because I
1:02:41don't believe it I don't believe any of
1:02:43it because of because the that vocal
1:02:46style is so affected I recognize it as
1:02:50country I'm not trying to be one of
1:02:52those like Hank Williams guys but like
1:02:54when I hear things that are called
1:02:55country music I'm like wow this I
1:02:57realize things evolved but this sounds
1:02:59so much more like hip-hop than country
1:03:01to me
1:03:02well just in the sense that it's so it
1:03:04is so affect not affected in the way you
1:03:07would think but it's just every single
1:03:10little edge has been shaved off of it
1:03:12and it's auto-tune and super shiny and
1:03:14it sounds like one of those Swedish
1:03:16producers like made a country album but
1:03:18not really like people kept talking
1:03:20about what this is this is the album
1:03:21where Taylor Swift is finally all off of
1:03:23country and and can totally pop and I'm
1:03:25like I don't know man she's been pretty
1:03:27pop for a while yeah right well and I
1:03:30think the difference is that there's not
1:03:32that like that weird drawl a weird draw
1:03:36that's that feels like San Francisco
1:03:38punk bands that sing in English music
1:03:41not just in the affectation of the voice
1:03:42yeah yeah right which is just like oh
1:03:45yeah but Dolph's naked herb lamp lamp
1:03:48lamp and it's like no it's all so corny
1:03:53just adding a pedal steel at the last
1:03:55minute does not make this a country song
1:03:56I heard that on the radio the other day
1:03:58or no I guess I was in a store and some
1:04:00song came on and from the way that this
1:04:03drum sounded I was like how long till
1:04:07the pedal steel I was just counting it
1:04:08down and then there it was like fine and
1:04:12I'm like you know the pedal steel is an
1:04:14incredible instrument I mean it's
1:04:16incredible it's got so much to say and
1:04:18so many different emotions it's awesome
1:04:21if you put if you run it into a
1:04:23distortion box if you run it into a
1:04:24chorus pedal if you run it into
1:04:26delay pedal it can do it's like us it's
1:04:30like a synthesizer I mean it can make so
1:04:32many tones and it's so that it's like
1:04:34it's like the country music saltshaker
1:04:35just it's so criminally underused it's
1:04:38just like wow like oh it's here it is
1:04:41this is a high lonesome song one more
1:04:44high lonesome I mean thinking the
1:04:47highlights
1:04:47think about them the way just a lap
1:04:50steel is used it within Hawaiian music
1:04:52mm-hmm it creates all that spooky whims
1:04:55the sound of Hawaiian music and it's the
1:04:58same it's the same instrument that's
1:05:00being used over here you know wow it's
1:05:05like oh fuck somebody should steal like
1:05:07the great pedal steel player should all
1:05:10march out of Nashville and just go start
1:05:13you know they should just start working
1:05:15with with the t-pain fucking do
1:05:21something else yeah both both sides
1:05:24everybody do something else we're gonna
1:05:25we're gonna flip it here we're gonna
1:05:26flip the switch mix it up a little bit
1:05:28yeah all the all the beat producers go
1:05:31over to Nashville and all the pedal
1:05:32steel players head out to LA into
1:05:34downtown Atlanta
1:05:35so usually when you mention something on
1:05:40the show it's something you've been
1:05:41thinking about for a while I guess
1:05:42sometimes it could be something that's
1:05:43just coming out because you it's
1:05:44occurring to you is there something
1:05:45you've been thinking about for a while
1:05:48did you just recently realize you've
1:05:51been thinking about this for a while I
1:05:53don't think that I I mean I've been
1:05:58thinking about this ever since ever
1:06:02since the the the forth long winters
1:06:05record went off that went off the trail
1:06:08because in the making of the fourth long
1:06:12winters record I was I had evolved to
1:06:15the point where I I felt like I was
1:06:18doing pretty great production work and
1:06:21that production work was such a separate
1:06:27job from my actual job of being the
1:06:31songwriter and the singer and it was in
1:06:34some ways more interesting to me and
1:06:38what ended up happening was
1:06:40I I produced well effectively an
1:06:44instrumental record I never went in and
1:06:48did my vocals and partly it was that I
1:06:51had that the the job of the vocals I had
1:06:54fulfilled with melodic instruments but
1:07:00the record sounded great you know and
1:07:05and I couldn't wait to mix it and it was
1:07:09just this like this frustrating thing
1:07:15that I needed to figure out god I gotta
1:07:17put vocals on this thing and in the end
1:07:19I never did I never put vocals on it
1:07:22that record just sits there unfinished
1:07:26and the experience of of working on that
1:07:33production every day and and in
1:07:35conjunction with Erik Corson who has
1:07:38become now a great producer in his own
1:07:42right and was a great engineer even then
1:07:49it felt like oh you know this is
1:07:52something I could do this is like a this
1:07:55is another thing I could do now right
1:07:58now the idea that in addition to having
1:08:02three unfinished records for podcasts a
1:08:06book deal that I haven't pursued that
1:08:11what I also need to do is throw my hat
1:08:14in the ring as a record producer
1:08:16it's just feels like what I need to do
1:08:19is is figure out a method of finishing
1:08:23things rather than chase down an mother
1:08:27for you that's that's a that's a hell of
1:08:30an insight well I mean it is it's very
1:08:37much of an insight I mean that's that's
1:08:40very that's very practical you know I
1:08:44had this list that's ten years old or 15
1:08:46years old of all the things that I I
1:08:48mean I've been trying to finish that
1:08:51record for ten years I've been trying to
1:08:52finish that book for
1:08:5320 years mmm and there was graduate from
1:08:57college was also on that list for 20
1:09:01years yeah I graduate from college I got
1:09:03to finish that book I got to finish that
1:09:05album and every morning I would wake up
1:09:07and there was no I never had a small
1:09:12list like get your pants on get some
1:09:16make some toast get out of the house you
1:09:19know at the end of every day I never had
1:09:21a list that I could that I could look at
1:09:24and say I checked everything off that
1:09:25list good job at the end of every day
1:09:28the only list I had was graduate from
1:09:32college finished that book finished that
1:09:35album and so at the end of every day all
1:09:39I ever looked at was a list that seemed
1:09:41real simple right it only had three
1:09:43items on it and they were all items that
1:09:47you know it it wasn't like start writing
1:09:50that book it was you up 450 pages
1:09:53written just to finish it huh as a
1:09:55retired productivity group guru I'll
1:09:57tell you those are not easy items no I
1:09:59know because I spent 15 years looking at
1:10:02that 3 item list and it was a drag to
1:10:08never be able to check a single thing
1:10:11off of a list and I didn't I didn't
1:10:13understand the thought technology of
1:10:15like make a stupid list of things and
1:10:17check them off and you'll feel good
1:10:18about yourself at the end of the day and
1:10:21also I've never been able to complete a
1:10:25project by making small manageable
1:10:27choices like all you need to do today is
1:10:31go in and cross all the T's and dot all
1:10:33the icer all you need to do today is
1:10:35write 500 words or you know I've never
1:10:37been good at that well so last year 2016
1:10:43I think 2000 at December of 2015 I got
1:10:47that letter in the mail an envelope from
1:10:50the University of Washington that shaped
1:10:52like a diploma have I told you this no I
1:11:00got an I got a diploma shaped manila
1:11:03envelope from the University of
1:11:06Washington so far so good
1:11:08and I looked at it I was like there's
1:11:11not that many things this could be and I
1:11:15think it is my diploma I think I have
1:11:20graduated from the University did it
1:11:23take you this long to open it my god I
1:11:25would have torn that open well I've
1:11:27never opened oh I put it on the I put it
1:11:32on the bookshelf and it's still there
1:11:36Wow and I look at it maybe not every day
1:11:41but it's right there it's like
1:11:44Schrodinger's diploma it is that's
1:11:46exactly right inside that envelope I
1:11:49think is a diploma I think if I went
1:11:53online I could probably find out whether
1:11:55or not I had graduated but I don't I'm
1:11:57not interested in doing that either and
1:11:59as far as I know until I open that
1:12:02envelope it's not official I don't know
1:12:08seems reasonable uh-huh I've never seen
1:12:11a diploma I don't even know what it
1:12:15would say what I don't even know what it
1:12:17like what do they look like even yeah is
1:12:20it gonna say like graduated with honors
1:12:22is it gonna say like barely eked by is
1:12:24it gonna say spent twenty four years in
1:12:26college white ribbon the white ribbon
1:12:32well I'll speak for the audience why do
1:12:38you suppose you haven't opened it
1:12:42because you want it you want it to stay
1:12:44a cat that could be alive or dead uh I
1:12:48don't know I mean it might be that it
1:12:54might be that if I open it then I will
1:12:58check one of those three things off the
1:13:02list I'll scratch one of those three
1:13:03things off the list and it will it will
1:13:07both make the other two things seem even
1:13:09like even starker now there's only two
1:13:14things on the list but also you know to
1:13:18carry around because it's not like I
1:13:21just
1:13:22it's not like I waited 15 years to
1:13:26graduate from college
1:13:27I've waited 30 years to graduate from
1:13:30college like I went into Gonzaga
1:13:34University as a freshman in September of
1:13:381987 and that's 30 years ago but I was
1:13:45thinking about going to college when I
1:13:46was 10
1:13:48yeah in 1977 and so to have graduated
1:13:59and to have a diploma that's like there
1:14:01it is University of Washington it's not
1:14:03like you're ever going it's not like you
1:14:04have needed it right I'm 49 years old
1:14:07and I have never needed it and I feel
1:14:11like opening it and looking at it and
1:14:13having accomplished it like all those
1:14:16times in my life when I when having it
1:14:18would have like when my dad was alive if
1:14:20I had been able to to show it to him and
1:14:23say like I graduated from the University
1:14:25of Washington it would have meant
1:14:26something to him it would have meant
1:14:30something to my uncles but now I just
1:14:35I'm afraid of feeling underwhelmed I'm
1:14:39afraid of it being like yeah yeah there
1:14:42it was you always knew you could is that
1:14:44all there is
1:14:44yeah is there any chance it could be the
1:14:48opposite of a diploma is there any part
1:14:50of your mind that worries that it's a
1:14:51big piece of paper that says your window
1:14:53is closed or do you something tells you
1:14:55that it's a diploma apart from the shape
1:14:56well yeah because because because that
1:15:00fall my the director of the comparative
1:15:06history of ideas department John tabes
1:15:10who took over in that role after Jim
1:15:14Klaus died although John tapes was
1:15:17always gym classes advisor gym class is
1:15:20that the guy you were gonna go start a
1:15:21civilization with that's right yeah
1:15:23that's right
1:15:23and Jim Klaus died suddenly and John
1:15:26tapes who had been his mentor decided
1:15:28that rather than let the chit Department
1:15:30either dissolve or fall into the hands
1:15:32of a young unexperienced or
1:15:35inexperienced professor John tabes was
1:15:37like okay all right I'll be the shepherd
1:15:40and guide Wow he's a pro he was a
1:15:42prominent AG alien John tames and and
1:15:48that fit in with you know what Jude did
1:15:51and John was a friend and a mentor to me
1:15:54and he called me and said I'm retiring
1:16:00from the University and when I go I'm
1:16:04the last living link to anyone who ever
1:16:08taught you or like like actually saw you
1:16:14as a living person rather than as a
1:16:16ghostly shamira that hovers over the
1:16:19chid Department like you know like I'm a
1:16:23I'm a Griffin right like just some
1:16:26winged lion and he said if I retire all
1:16:32these little weird addenda that are
1:16:34attached to all the pieces of paper in
1:16:37your file all the post-it notes that say
1:16:40well this looks like that but in
1:16:42actuality it's this because he did that
1:16:45and then this see somebody promised him
1:16:49this and and you know and there's like
1:16:53dog tags in there and there's like so a
1:16:56lock of somebody's hair you know like my
1:16:59do you feel like he was spinning it as
1:17:01like nah this is this is the time thing
1:17:03you need to do now oh he wasn't spinning
1:17:05it he said it directly like let's give
1:17:07these don't if you don't graduate now
1:17:10it's going to be hard later to find
1:17:14anybody who's gonna believe it and you
1:17:18just need to like you've had enough
1:17:19credits to graduate since 2001 you've
1:17:22been putting it off for whatever a
1:17:24thousand reasons you know Jim Klaus like
1:17:28I went to see him in the hospital and he
1:17:30said don't don't not graduate because
1:17:35it's not perfect like don't fail to
1:17:38graduate because you think that you need
1:17:41it all to be perfect
1:17:44just do it just hand in your shit and
1:17:47get out and I said you know and he's
1:17:50like you know he's in the hospital on
1:17:53his way and I said Jim I can't you know
1:17:56I can't do that I'm telling you I'm
1:18:00telling you you understand how parts of
1:18:02college work but there are some parts
1:18:04you understand there are other parts you
1:18:05don't seem to fully grasp yet that the
1:18:07idea is to be done with college yeah you
1:18:09need to you need to not like these poor
1:18:13people crazy
1:18:14and let's just say to them it did it did
1:18:16it did it drove them crazy they were
1:18:18like for all the effort that you've put
1:18:19into this you can have four graduate
1:18:21degrees why are you still here and I was
1:18:24like that's nice you know I just have
1:18:25this one other thing I want to do things
1:18:38in the hospital like he's he's like this
1:18:39is my deathbed command to you all Jesus
1:18:42and I said you know I read a lot of
1:18:44talking but I think you're not supposed
1:18:45to refuse that I think if you get a
1:18:47deathbed command for somebody used to
1:18:48instruct you I think you're something
1:18:49you're expected to follow it well the
1:18:51thing is you I think you're if you say
1:18:53yes sir and then defy the the promise
1:18:58then you yes you know what you're
1:19:00probably right but I sat there in the
1:19:02chair an argument I never agreed to this
1:19:04yeah to graduate from you're gonna stay
1:19:08here until it's perfect
1:19:10so James James had me come down to the
1:19:14college and you know and there's like
1:19:16upon the chid department wall there's a
1:19:18long winters poster you know it's like i
1:19:20am a samara or i am like a race a race
1:19:28maybe haunt a grandfather clock or
1:19:30something but i went down and i sat
1:19:41there and we all laughed and and we had
1:19:44we had some fun we had you know we had
1:19:47some laughs and and my memory is hazy
1:19:55but but i feel very
1:19:57certain because there was all this
1:20:00there's all this stuff that needed to
1:20:01happen right I mean I was like well I've
1:20:04wanted I wanted to hand in that I had
1:20:06that thing about marks that I was
1:20:08working on and I just wanted to like
1:20:09make some modifications to it and all
1:20:11this stuff you know that I had that I
1:20:15needed to do before I would and I think
1:20:18in as I was sitting there describing it
1:20:20like he put he kept putting papers in
1:20:23front of me and he had me sign something
1:20:29that I think eventually produced this
1:20:33envelope arriving in the mail Oh got a
1:20:37little bit gaslighted I got a little bit
1:20:40even realize you're graduating that's
1:20:41not fair
1:20:42well and so and then so I got a Facebook
1:20:44message from someone at the University
1:20:48one time that said congratulations
1:20:51that's someone in the chit Department
1:20:54Facebook message and it wasn't even a
1:20:57message it was like posted on my page
1:20:58and your well yeah and I wrote and I and
1:21:01I commented and I was like for what
1:21:03and they commented back oh never mom
1:21:07you'll see and so that's all that's all
1:21:12the evidence I have but when that
1:21:15envelope arrived I like it had a kind of
1:21:19you know it had a little it had icicles
1:21:21on it like it felt like wow what is so I
1:21:25knew I knew a not to open it I knew B
1:21:27not to throw it away so I so it's it's
1:21:30on the bookshelf maybe that's a good
1:21:36idea I like that I like that man you
1:21:38know me lately in your and your papers
1:21:40right you leave behind some instructions
1:21:42about what's to be done in the unlikely
1:21:44event of your death you're allowed to do
1:21:48with the framed envelope right I don't I
1:21:51got tell you buddy I like this idea a
1:21:53lot fraying the envelope I'm worried
1:21:55that framing the envelope is a weird
1:21:57affectation like I I worry already that
1:22:00not opening it is weird yeah but I feel
1:22:04like framing it it but that feels right
1:22:07to do but it also feels like
1:22:10now you know your hanging stuff on the
1:22:12walls in your house that you're hoping
1:22:13people ask about that would be weird to
1:22:15hang the envelope you should just leave
1:22:16your diploma on open
1:22:18[Music]
1:22:20[Laughter]