Roderick on the Line

Ep. 269: "Yelling at the Radio"


00:00:01   [Music] [TS]

00:00:05   hello hi John hi Mel run yeah John how's [TS]

00:00:10   it going good how are you good I'm [TS]

00:00:13   diddling a little bit with some new [TS]

00:00:15   audio and you're my first victim oh yeah [TS]

00:00:21   this could get real weird I don't know [TS]

00:00:23   what's happening what's happening there [TS]

00:00:25   oh I'm trying a new interface to my [TS]

00:00:28   computer tell me about it tell me more [TS]

00:00:30   about no I don't get too far is it an is [TS]

00:00:31   it an A to D converter [TS]

00:00:33   yeah no it's D D D all the way down just [TS]

00:00:36   like brothers-in-arms uh-huh am I [TS]

00:00:38   allowed to you know cuz I turned you [TS]

00:00:40   down okay [TS]

00:00:41   all right well I'm not peeking I got the [TS]

00:00:43   limiter dipswitch I hit the always [TS]

00:00:45   switch I'm always peeking here and I [TS]

00:00:47   don't understand why I've got this [TS]

00:00:49   little audio interface that has little [TS]

00:00:51   little meters on it and every time I [TS]

00:00:53   look down it looks right and then I look [TS]

00:00:56   away and I looked back and I've and I've [TS]

00:00:59   had a peak I've got some I've got red [TS]

00:01:03   and I'm and I was like I'm talking right [TS]

00:01:05   now talk this as loud as I get I'm not [TS]

00:01:07   peeking [TS]

00:01:08   yeah no I'm like a monkey with a slide [TS]

00:01:09   rule lalala I got this thing and I got [TS]

00:01:12   my 23 ban meter dingus that tells me how [TS]

00:01:15   I'm doing well bands like a Nakamichi [TS]

00:01:20   cereal it's pretty sweet anyways it's [TS]

00:01:27   the most wonderful time we having a good [TS]

00:01:30   week it can't be that bad oh man I did [TS]

00:01:45   an unusual thing what tell me well you [TS]

00:01:48   know it was some kind of podcast [TS]

00:01:49   conference here in town yes is that the [TS]

00:01:51   pod Conn pod con and I was put on by I [TS]

00:01:59   think Hank green and his brother Frank [TS]

00:02:01   green he's from the internet from the [TS]

00:02:04   internet mm-hm and and the the McElroy [TS]

00:02:08   brothers McElroy's and no one called me [TS]

00:02:14   spit out my beverage I'm [TS]

00:02:17   called you nobody called me now what now [TS]

00:02:20   some some fans called me some people [TS]

00:02:22   that were coming through town that were [TS]

00:02:24   like I'm coming to the podcast con oh [TS]

00:02:26   and you got coming at you both ways [TS]

00:02:28   people unempowered to have you up on the [TS]

00:02:30   stage they're saying hey where's John [TS]

00:02:31   Roderick that's right I had a I had a [TS]

00:02:33   local journalist who said hey can you [TS]

00:02:35   can you know can you introduce me to the [TS]

00:02:38   mek Elroy's mm-hmm I'm gonna get so many [TS]

00:02:40   letters from them from the McIlroy's [TS]

00:02:43   first and foremost but I think I think [TS]

00:02:50   they've I don't think they communicate [TS]

00:02:51   anymore I think I think they've had it [TS]

00:02:53   hmm well so apparently like they [TS]

00:02:55   mentioned me from the stage at their [TS]

00:02:57   show did they always they always thank [TS]

00:02:59   you at the end of their I don't listen [TS]

00:03:00   to their show but they always thank you [TS]

00:03:02   at the end of every episode and they say [TS]

00:03:03   we're to get a copy of your album it's [TS]

00:03:06   wonderful that they do that but no one [TS]

00:03:07   invited me to the pod con that's [TS]

00:03:09   happening in my own town and podcast [TS]

00:03:12   about the Wicked Witch and nobody has [TS]

00:03:14   the witch come yeah thank you [TS]

00:03:16   [Music] [TS]

00:03:17   monkeys so all so but the thing is you [TS]

00:03:22   know when you ask me like how's my week [TS]

00:03:23   going all that was last week that ended [TS]

00:03:26   last night this is a brand new week [TS]

00:03:28   today is a this is all new yeah that's [TS]

00:03:31   true that's true but I had a friend in [TS]

00:03:34   town who was here to see the con and I [TS]

00:03:36   just got up early a and went out of the [TS]

00:03:41   house B to meet her for coffee you're [TS]

00:03:45   kidding me before the show hang on [TS]

00:03:48   oh yes you sure you sure you didn't get [TS]

00:03:51   your clock wrong on this very day where [TS]

00:03:53   you record with me at 10:00 a.m. Pacific [TS]

00:03:55   time you were already up and you've [TS]

00:03:57   already been out of the house and talk [TS]

00:03:58   to somebody was close I got up I started [TS]

00:04:02   the truck and let it warm up I got out [TS]

00:04:04   with a glove and wiped the frost off the [TS]

00:04:07   windows drove to Randy's I had a [TS]

00:04:12   chicken-fried steak in eggs oh my god [TS]

00:04:15   and then back in the saddle at 10:03 you [TS]

00:04:21   ate a chicken-fried steak this morning [TS]

00:04:24   and you're still awake [TS]

00:04:25   I already I'm just and I'm going to a [TS]

00:04:27   radio appearance after our show and [TS]

00:04:29   going to my psychiatrist no and then [TS]

00:04:32   after that I think I'm going to dinner [TS]

00:04:35   like fancy dinner somebody's doing all [TS]

00:04:37   these things in one day and one single [TS]

00:04:39   day so making up for all the other days [TS]

00:04:41   where I never do anything [TS]

00:04:43   it's a catch-up day well you can't catch [TS]

00:04:46   up oh man I've written down [TS]

00:04:48   chicken-fried steak cuz I need to talk [TS]

00:04:50   to you about food and sleep oh my god [TS]

00:04:52   I'm so proud of you what a day and then [TS]

00:04:55   only you shook it off you shook it off [TS]

00:04:56   even though the McElroy's and the greens [TS]

00:04:58   is is did not invite you to their con [TS]

00:05:00   you see you shook it off and you got you [TS]

00:05:02   got right back in the fray got back on [TS]

00:05:03   course that's right that's right boots [TS]

00:05:06   on the ground on the way home I started [TS]

00:05:10   singing as you sometimes do I started [TS]

00:05:13   singing in the air tonight Phil [TS]

00:05:15   Collins's first solo hit its magnum opus [TS]

00:05:19   in many ways and you know of course I [TS]

00:05:23   was having the regular thoughts that you [TS]

00:05:24   have about it what an unusual single [TS]

00:05:27   what a what an extraordinary choice to [TS]

00:05:31   have as a first single who would have [TS]

00:05:33   thought yeah at this weird song and then [TS]

00:05:37   I did the thing that I very seldom do [TS]

00:05:39   which as I said you know even though [TS]

00:05:42   today is not like Phil Collins day I I'm [TS]

00:05:48   gonna spend just like two minutes while [TS]

00:05:50   I'm sitting at this traffic light to get [TS]

00:05:53   a little bit more familiar with in the [TS]

00:05:55   air tonight a song that I feel like I [TS]

00:05:56   know like at like as well as my own [TS]

00:06:00   shirt mmm-hmm yeah when I did we've [TS]

00:06:04   lived in that song for a long time oh [TS]

00:06:05   four years right yeah [TS]

00:06:07   up and down with in the air tonight and [TS]

00:06:12   I went and I looked at the lyrics [TS]

00:06:13   because I was assuming because in all [TS]

00:06:18   the years that we've been listening to [TS]

00:06:19   the song you there's so much story in it [TS]

00:06:23   and I was assuming that there were some [TS]

00:06:27   lyrics that I that I didn't know there [TS]

00:06:30   was some third verse that I'd never [TS]

00:06:31   really looked at that was gonna that [TS]

00:06:35   when I read those lyrics I was just [TS]

00:06:37   gonna be like wow gobsmacked or I was [TS]

00:06:40   going to be disappointed [TS]

00:06:43   so I'm sitting at the stoplight I look [TS]

00:06:46   up in the air tonight lyrics and I read [TS]

00:06:49   them and I realize oh I know them all [TS]

00:06:52   yeah there may be less than you even [TS]

00:06:54   thought yeah I know the lyrics there's [TS]

00:06:56   only two verses and we could all sing it [TS]

00:06:59   all the way through right now yeah and [TS]

00:07:02   and even more of an accomplishment that [TS]

00:07:07   there's there's nothing in the lyrics [TS]

00:07:10   you know we all think like oh there he [TS]

00:07:13   must have witnessed a murder [TS]

00:07:14   oh yeah around four years that I think [TS]

00:07:18   has since been don't email me I this [TS]

00:07:21   three went around for a long time that [TS]

00:07:22   it was about actually literally watching [TS]

00:07:24   somebody drown yeah right like watching [TS]

00:07:26   watching sting killed his first wife or [TS]

00:07:28   saw Mike ID in 3/4 time yeah please do [TS]

00:07:31   not write me like that no but it turns [TS]

00:07:34   out it couldn't you know the language is [TS]

00:07:36   broad enough he could just be mad at his [TS]

00:07:39   next-door neighbor this could just be an [TS]

00:07:41   argument he's having with his sister [TS]

00:07:43   like if I saw you drowning I wouldn't [TS]

00:07:45   even lend a hand [TS]

00:07:45   that's that's the meanest thing in it [TS]

00:07:48   the rest of it is just like you know [TS]

00:07:50   what you did you know you know what grin [TS]

00:07:54   yeah [TS]

00:07:56   the only the only reason that it is this [TS]

00:08:00   I mean we just we add all that Menace to [TS]

00:08:03   it and I think it's in his voice I think [TS]

00:08:06   here the characteristics of the [TS]

00:08:08   production don't you think yeah that [TS]

00:08:10   miss appearance right it's the sound of [TS]

00:08:12   a foreboding [TS]

00:08:14   but but anyway so I just came away from [TS]

00:08:18   that experience I it's not like I've [TS]

00:08:19   heard the song I it's not like it was on [TS]

00:08:21   the radio nothing inspired me to do this [TS]

00:08:25   nowhere [TS]

00:08:26   yeah I just had some chicken-fried steak [TS]

00:08:28   and I was like whatever do you cover [TS]

00:08:41   that that'd be all right it's in line [TS]

00:08:48   with a lot of songs that are hard to do [TS]

00:08:49   at karaoke and I think we've talked [TS]

00:08:51   about this before but there's there's a [TS]

00:08:53   famous karaoke songs where you think you [TS]

00:08:54   really think you know the song [TS]

00:08:56   probably shouldn't do that song because [TS]

00:08:58   you don't actually you you remember the [TS]

00:09:00   feel of it but you don't really remember [TS]

00:09:02   where the stops and starts are and this [TS]

00:09:04   one you know I'm saying it with this one [TS]

00:09:06   there's a lot of air and in this tonight [TS]

00:09:08   you know what I'm saying [TS]

00:09:09   so this song has a lot of space to it [TS]

00:09:12   and Atmospheric sitting you know and [TS]

00:09:13   it's from the time around the time that [TS]

00:09:15   Peter Gabriel was doing similar [TS]

00:09:17   production to great success we think [TS]

00:09:20   about the first three Peter Gabriel [TS]

00:09:21   albums like they had a real feel to them [TS]

00:09:23   there were very simples no symbols is [TS]

00:09:28   that true you know that story you took [TS]

00:09:30   the symbols away took the symbols away [TS]

00:09:31   he said gotta play the drums [TS]

00:09:33   hate that drummers love their cymbals [TS]

00:09:35   well and I think he was the first one to [TS]

00:09:37   ever do it yeah I think drummers hate it [TS]

00:09:38   I think what drummers hate is Peter [TS]

00:09:40   Gabriel well they're a lot like dogs you [TS]

00:09:42   know ninety minutes don't forget [TS]

00:09:43   everything anyway the guy who did who [TS]

00:09:52   did in the air tonight who did was that [TS]

00:09:54   face value face value these dances [TS]

00:09:58   tonight face dances who produced this [TS]

00:10:18   you padam padam he also the guy was he [TS]

00:10:22   also Peter Gabriel man I think he was [TS]

00:10:24   this is this is stuff that if I were [TS]

00:10:27   reading a copy of tape up magazine [TS]

00:10:30   mm-hmm [TS]

00:10:31   I would be like right in there right in [TS]

00:10:34   the thick of it throwing elbows but [TS]

00:10:39   sitting here you know sitting here just [TS]

00:10:41   on my hard stool little toadstool I'm [TS]

00:10:44   just like doo doo doo da people's first [TS]

00:10:47   album was produced by Bob Ezrin [TS]

00:10:49   bob is get over that shit right now come [TS]

00:10:53   on get out of Dodge so I kind of won I'm [TS]

00:10:57   pretty happy with that Solsbury Hill [TS]

00:10:58   business let's let's let's get the guy [TS]

00:11:00   from kiss see again like you can read [TS]

00:11:07   and tape up you'd be throwing elbows [TS]

00:11:08   right now [TS]

00:11:09   this feels like a tape up article that [TS]

00:11:12   we should write sorry it's all I took [TS]

00:11:14   you way out took you out of your [TS]

00:11:15   experience you've had an amazing morning [TS]

00:11:16   capping off a really turbulent week I'm [TS]

00:11:19   sitting here talking to you about [TS]

00:11:20   English producers shame on me [TS]

00:11:22   well it's not shame on it's not a [TS]

00:11:23   situation like that if we if you had [TS]

00:11:25   given it to the fix if you wanted to [TS]

00:11:28   talk about the fix yeah that's too hard [TS]

00:11:31   of a turn you feel no no I feel like I [TS]

00:11:33   would have made the turn to the fix I [TS]

00:11:35   couldn't make the turn to kiss no no I [TS]

00:11:40   met the bob ezrin part is all is all and [TS]

00:11:42   now we got Steve Lillywhite he says he [TS]

00:11:44   wouldn't work with the band more than [TS]

00:11:45   twice but in the case of you two he made [TS]

00:11:47   an exception for war I feel like I want [TS]

00:11:50   to and want to be a record producer oh [TS]

00:11:54   yeah [TS]

00:11:55   I really do and I don't and when I [TS]

00:11:59   listen to other people's production on [TS]

00:12:03   albums even ones that I love even where [TS]

00:12:06   I love the production as as in my [TS]

00:12:11   evolution as a musician right when [TS]

00:12:12   you're young and you're just listening [TS]

00:12:13   to music as a listener you don't really [TS]

00:12:15   hear production it's not a thing you're [TS]

00:12:17   conscious of yeah it's the stuff you're [TS]

00:12:19   not supposed to notice yeah there's a [TS]

00:12:21   lot of reverb on there but you don't [TS]

00:12:22   notice the subtleties of what's covering [TS]

00:12:25   the musical spectrum yeah you can't hear [TS]

00:12:28   you can't hear the work of a producer [TS]

00:12:29   and then we all have I think the same [TS]

00:12:32   experience which is most of us that are [TS]

00:12:35   that didn't come up during a hip-hop era [TS]

00:12:37   who came up during a guitar pop era our [TS]

00:12:42   first awareness of production comes when [TS]

00:12:43   we learn about George Martin and you go [TS]

00:12:46   why the hell are the Beatles so good and [TS]

00:12:47   it's like oh well the production and [TS]

00:12:51   then you get schooled on it and then you [TS]

00:12:53   start hearing the production on a lot of [TS]

00:12:55   things like on Bohemian Rhapsody and you [TS]

00:12:57   start hearing the production on then [TS]

00:12:59   then as you if you're a rock person you [TS]

00:13:03   start hearing these stories Oh John [TS]

00:13:04   Bonham wouldn't let him put the [TS]

00:13:05   microphones close to the drum son oh you [TS]

00:13:08   know [TS]

00:13:09   during the making of of those Pink Floyd [TS]

00:13:14   albums you know they they Roger was an [TS]

00:13:18   asshole [TS]

00:13:19   well and it's all like tape loops that [TS]

00:13:21   Alan Parsons came up with it oh look at [TS]

00:13:24   the camera he had the pan slowly and [TS]

00:13:30   gorgeous Dave Gilmour God that guy was [TS]

00:13:32   handsome he's so wonderful I I did a [TS]

00:13:35   deep dive on Gilmour the other day but I [TS]

00:13:36   don't too hard [TS]

00:13:38   sorry and then then you hear the story [TS]

00:13:41   about when they were making rumors and [TS]

00:13:42   they lifted up the tape and they could [TS]

00:13:44   see through it because they had done [TS]

00:13:45   something cocaine off of it but then you [TS]

00:13:50   get into making records like I did and [TS]

00:13:53   now you're confronted with production as [TS]

00:13:56   a very real thing that you're like [TS]

00:13:59   you're learning and deeply engaged in [TS]

00:14:02   where you're like well wait a minute do [TS]

00:14:03   we like I had some profound production [TS]

00:14:07   moments in the early long winters [TS]

00:14:10   records because I was collaborating with [TS]

00:14:12   Chris Walla and Chris had a very strong [TS]

00:14:16   eye hand and come on and Ken [TS]

00:14:20   Stringfellow no no he's not listen to [TS]

00:14:32   the podcast well but but I can think [TS]

00:14:36   back to a couple of key moments in the [TS]

00:14:41   in the production of that first record [TS]

00:14:45   where a production choice determined not [TS]

00:14:49   only the sound of the album but the [TS]

00:14:51   sound of the band thence forth Wow when [TS]

00:14:57   I think back on those moments I think [TS]

00:15:00   back on them as turning points and in at [TS]

00:15:03   least one case I wish I'd gone the other [TS]

00:15:06   direction I'm so I'm so curious okay so [TS]

00:15:09   it's a song is it is it a particular [TS]

00:15:12   song for the first album [TS]

00:15:15   it was a sound okay it was a sound that [TS]

00:15:19   we got and it was in getting this sound [TS]

00:15:25   and I'll tell you what the sound was [TS]

00:15:27   mm-hmm the sound was the sound of my [TS]

00:15:34   Juno 106 roland synthesizer which is a [TS]

00:15:39   synthesizer that has a lot of you can [TS]

00:15:42   manipulate a lot of parameters you can [TS]

00:15:43   make it sound like a lot of things but [TS]

00:15:46   primarily you make it sound like a like [TS]

00:15:48   variations on a synthesizer they're good [TS]

00:15:50   at that they're really good it sounds [TS]

00:15:52   very like a synthesizer no matter to it [TS]

00:15:54   and then we ran the synthesizer into a [TS]

00:15:59   big muff Distortion a big muff fuzz [TS]

00:16:03   pedal and it created this this wall is [TS]

00:16:12   extremely pleasing the fat of stick [TS]

00:16:22   fuzziness like a giant like a giant love [TS]

00:16:28   Caterpillar came in to the room and [TS]

00:16:31   wrapped me in its five thousand little [TS]

00:16:33   stubby green arms and it was like it was [TS]

00:16:41   a turning point an in-studio turning [TS]

00:16:44   point where here was this sound which [TS]

00:16:47   was this like maybe like a Copernicus it [TS]

00:16:51   was happening in the process of that [TS]

00:16:54   exactly that that the we were [TS]

00:16:57   experimenting with a song that did not [TS]

00:16:59   have a band arrangement Copernicus was [TS]

00:17:02   this tune then because some of this [TS]

00:17:03   stuff just for a background it's worth I [TS]

00:17:05   think it's worth mentioning that some of [TS]

00:17:07   these have been western states a [TS]

00:17:10   hurricane songs that you had really if [TS]

00:17:13   you changed it up quite a lot I mean [TS]

00:17:14   it's really amazing to think about how [TS]

00:17:16   many times you play car parts that one [TS]

00:17:17   way and then made it into this pop song [TS]

00:17:19   you had reinvented some hurricane songs [TS]

00:17:22   and then there was new stuff starting [TS]

00:17:24   from scratch yeah trying to reinvent [TS]

00:17:27   stuff [TS]

00:17:28   and and going from a band that was that [TS]

00:17:33   was like pretty post-grunge hard rock [TS]

00:17:38   you know the western state hurricanes [TS]

00:17:40   had big amplifiers and we were allowed [TS]

00:17:41   band and we were in the studio and we [TS]

00:17:44   are making this music that was indeed [TS]

00:17:48   proto proto [TS]

00:17:49   indie rock maybe not proto but we were [TS]

00:17:53   certainly in this in the new quiet as [TS]

00:17:55   the new loud school and i failed to be [TS]

00:17:58   quiet in new laughs but that was [TS]

00:18:02   certainly that was the that was the new [TS]

00:18:04   aesthetic and i hit and so Copernicus [TS]

00:18:08   used to be a big rock song and we and it [TS]

00:18:12   wasn't we the only reason we were even [TS]

00:18:14   doing it is that we didn't have enough [TS]

00:18:15   songs to make a whole album and I was [TS]

00:18:17   like well what about Copernicus and I [TS]

00:18:19   sat down at the piano and I had never [TS]

00:18:22   played it on the piano before and just [TS]

00:18:24   sort of tinkering right and in the [TS]

00:18:27   process of trying stuff out hit upon [TS]

00:18:30   this sound and it's not it's not like a [TS]

00:18:36   it's not like we were the first person [TS]

00:18:38   people never run a synthesizer into a [TS]

00:18:39   big buff right it's a it's a fairly [TS]

00:18:44   common thing to try but it it was a [TS]

00:18:49   sound that I heard in my in my soul [TS]

00:18:53   because what it sounded like was a [TS]

00:18:56   really big fat guitar but that had no [TS]

00:19:00   strumming it was just you could play [TS]

00:19:03   chords you could make all the [TS]

00:19:05   transitions but there wasn't any [TS]

00:19:06   rhythmic aspect to the quartz it's not [TS]

00:19:10   like Dow now now now now now now now it [TS]

00:19:13   was just and you could put that in and [TS]

00:19:22   have guitars on it and base on it and [TS]

00:19:26   have rhythmic things and underneath it [TS]

00:19:29   there would be this like not just a low [TS]

00:19:32   tone but this like kind of just wall [TS]

00:19:36   this wall of what communicated to me [TS]

00:19:40   like [TS]

00:19:41   the biggest raucous sound and I'm [TS]

00:19:45   sitting in the studio and we're putting [TS]

00:19:47   this down and my eyes are just as wide [TS]

00:19:52   as saucers and I'm like reinventing [TS]

00:20:00   everything in my mind and we you know [TS]

00:20:02   we're not this isn't like during mixing [TS]

00:20:04   but but we're kind of far along in the [TS]

00:20:08   recording and and I'm basically saying I [TS]

00:20:14   want this on everything okay like you [TS]

00:20:21   made like pesto for the first time you [TS]

00:20:24   know everything gets pesto yeah but but [TS]

00:20:27   it is it is the sound right I mean if [TS]

00:20:35   you when they were making my bloody [TS]

00:20:37   Valentines Lovelace he took his jazz [TS]

00:20:42   master and he ran it in probably two a [TS]

00:20:44   big muff anyway he was like that's the [TS]

00:20:48   sound and he put everything that that [TS]

00:20:50   whammy bar thing kind of helps to find [TS]

00:20:52   that sound I think of it that way for [TS]

00:20:54   sure yeah for sure I mean if you if you [TS]

00:20:56   read the interviews with him at the time [TS]

00:20:57   he's like we didn't use any synthesizers [TS]

00:20:59   on this it's very simple actually it [TS]

00:21:02   sounds amazing to you but you're not [TS]

00:21:04   thinking straight because it's just like [TS]

00:21:07   basically two or three tracks of guitar [TS]

00:21:09   in it it's not this crazy thing the more [TS]

00:21:13   you listen to it the less you feel like [TS]

00:21:15   you understand what's going on it's so [TS]

00:21:19   good but it but but it's it's an example [TS]

00:21:21   and there are there are hundreds of [TS]

00:21:23   examples of bands who just like The [TS]

00:21:27   Strokes hit upon that vocal sound [TS]

00:21:30   mm-hm and I made that record and so [TS]

00:21:36   anyway I came into the studio the next [TS]

00:21:39   day and the the the track that we were [TS]

00:21:42   the track that this went down on was not [TS]

00:21:45   Copernicus although Copernicus was where [TS]

00:21:47   it blow boom [TS]

00:21:49   what's the one of the dr.dre on it the [TS]

00:21:50   bone [TS]

00:21:52   well what song am I thinking of that [TS]

00:21:55   some unsalted butter right right uh no [TS]

00:22:01   it was Meany really that this happened [TS]

00:22:04   on the first time and you know Mimi is a [TS]

00:22:06   very thick production there's a lot [TS]

00:22:08   going on in that production but and the [TS]

00:22:11   thing is I'm I didn't hear this keyboard [TS]

00:22:13   part being the loudest thing in the mix [TS]

00:22:15   just that he existed that it was this [TS]

00:22:18   like that the chords had this additional [TS]

00:22:24   fatness that would have been a sound [TS]

00:22:29   like a unifying sound on an album and it [TS]

00:22:33   would have been a unifying sound of a [TS]

00:22:35   band whether or not you know like [TS]

00:22:42   whether or not that sound would have [TS]

00:22:44   appealed to people more than the sound [TS]

00:22:45   that we went with I have no idea and I [TS]

00:22:48   don't it's not a thing that that it's [TS]

00:22:52   we're speculating about but at the time [TS]

00:22:55   I was like production because there [TS]

00:23:01   wasn't a band the long winters weren't a [TS]

00:23:03   band it wasn't like we were coming in [TS]

00:23:05   and trying to capture our sound it was [TS]

00:23:08   like I was in them the rare position of [TS]

00:23:11   being able to say this is the sound of a [TS]

00:23:15   new band and I came in the next day and [TS]

00:23:19   was like let's you know let's call that [TS]

00:23:23   up and Kris said yeah I what I tried to [TS]

00:23:31   like make that work and I couldn't [TS]

00:23:35   really make it work [TS]

00:23:38   so I recorded over it oh oh that's [TS]

00:23:46   aggressive for a billing hammer well I [TS]

00:23:49   mean that was his and and that was you [TS]

00:23:52   know it it was within the 10-minute [TS]

00:23:54   period that I had this like production [TS]

00:23:57   and then on the flip side of it like [TS]

00:24:00   production [TS]

00:24:02   because he perceived himself to be the [TS]

00:24:04   producer and that wasn't where that [TS]

00:24:08   wasn't the direction he heard it going [TS]

00:24:10   and we had an argument about it but it [TS]

00:24:15   was but he had erased it it wasn't like [TS]

00:24:19   the tracks down at this point no [TS]

00:24:22   everything was I mean we were we were [TS]

00:24:24   far enough along in the making of the [TS]

00:24:26   record that this would have been a this [TS]

00:24:29   would have been a change of direction [TS]

00:24:30   and and when you are in a situation like [TS]

00:24:35   that where you feel like oh well you [TS]

00:24:38   know we've got to get this done we don't [TS]

00:24:41   have the time to do this now and you [TS]

00:24:43   look at it from my perspective 15 years [TS]

00:24:46   later and you go you know you had all [TS]

00:24:48   the time in the world to make those [TS]

00:24:51   decisions like yeah the famous adage [TS]

00:24:53   right you know about your whole life to [TS]

00:24:55   make your first record right you only [TS]

00:24:57   have a year to make your second record [TS]

00:24:58   right and he didn't you know that wasn't [TS]

00:25:04   the sound of production that he had in [TS]

00:25:07   mind and and at that point in his career [TS]

00:25:12   he didn't see his job as being [TS]

00:25:16   facilitate the artist as much as his job [TS]

00:25:19   was be pay a guide to the artist or be a [TS]

00:25:30   collaborator a co-author [TS]

00:25:34   so everything that followed from there [TS]

00:25:38   like the second record I took a much [TS]

00:25:41   greater hand in in making production [TS]

00:25:45   decisions for better and for worse [TS]

00:25:48   because I was learning production and [TS]

00:25:51   not always you know I at that point kind [TS]

00:25:54   of needed a mentor anyway like like a [TS]

00:25:59   lot of things in music as I learned more [TS]

00:26:01   and more about production and as I heard [TS]

00:26:03   it more and more then I couldn't listen [TS]

00:26:06   to a record without hearing the [TS]

00:26:07   production hearing it in some cases a [TS]

00:26:09   long time before I was listening to the [TS]

00:26:11   song [TS]

00:26:13   until production was my primary path [TS]

00:26:21   into music and I think I arrived at a [TS]

00:26:28   place where if the production is if the [TS]

00:26:31   production doesn't grab me right away I [TS]

00:26:33   don't want to hear the production now [TS]

00:26:36   you know like if if like I keep going [TS]

00:26:42   back to this band always from Canada who [TS]

00:26:46   I think have great production and the [TS]

00:26:49   new Portugal demand song I think has [TS]

00:26:51   great production and I want to listen [TS]

00:26:53   and you know Beck records have great [TS]

00:26:55   production I want to listen to the [TS]

00:26:56   production on those things but like like [TS]

00:26:59   bad production I it's like listening to [TS]

00:27:03   a bad podcast I just get a you know my [TS]

00:27:08   shoulders hunched up I get that like [TS]

00:27:09   lemon just sucked on a lemon face and I [TS]

00:27:14   just have to I just have to get out of [TS]

00:27:16   it I don't want to I don't want to hear [TS]

00:27:18   it we thought without naming names what [TS]

00:27:20   do you think of we need to go what [TS]

00:27:21   you're calling bad production what what [TS]

00:27:22   is the hallmark of what you consider bad [TS]

00:27:24   production well how it makes you feel [TS]

00:27:27   anything with vocoder honor Oh or like [TS]

00:27:30   auto-tune anything with anything with [TS]

00:27:33   what I mean vocoder in particular even [TS]

00:27:35   more than auto-tune is an effect that is [TS]

00:27:40   now I mean it's considered almost like [TS]

00:27:45   de rigueur still if you're making a kind [TS]

00:27:49   of record absolutely I mean that Kanye [TS]

00:27:51   record that came out I think he works it [TS]

00:27:55   sometimes well yeah but it was it was [TS]

00:27:59   superfluous to need uh as he used it on [TS]

00:28:04   this most recent record and the thing is [TS]

00:28:05   it's know it no longer I understand that [TS]

00:28:07   to us to listeners within the auto-tune [TS]

00:28:14   slash vocoder genre it is as necessary [TS]

00:28:18   to the sound of the music as distorted [TS]

00:28:21   guitars are to metal it's just the sound [TS]

00:28:24   it is the sound of it [TS]

00:28:26   but I just find it like so dull with it [TS]

00:28:31   just don't win it as a sound and when I [TS]

00:28:38   hear it I just go just I'm just I'm out [TS]

00:28:42   [Music] [TS]

00:28:43   and you know the same is true of like [TS]

00:28:49   super super gloss on stuff that I mean [TS]

00:28:55   and this isn't just coming from a [TS]

00:28:57   low-fiber spective but what are the [TS]

00:28:59   where everything has been glossed to the [TS]

00:29:02   point where there's no it's not even [TS]

00:29:04   conceivable that there would be [TS]

00:29:05   imperfection in it and I think you [TS]

00:29:08   probably have that same feeling like [TS]

00:29:10   super gloss just puts me out on the [TS]

00:29:11   sidewalks it's it's it's weird cuz I'm [TS]

00:29:15   I'm somewhat out of the vernacular on a [TS]

00:29:17   lot of stuff I mean I'll know like I'll [TS]

00:29:19   recognize something as part of this like [TS]

00:29:20   two to three year long trend you know [TS]

00:29:24   but it's sometimes something comes along [TS]

00:29:27   that is is very new and you really [TS]

00:29:30   notice it I mean for vocoder you go back [TS]

00:29:32   to let's say you know zap and Roger or [TS]

00:29:35   something where like they or I guess [TS]

00:29:37   Peter Frampton before that but but zap [TS]

00:29:39   and Roger turning into a little bit of [TS]

00:29:40   an art form maybe beat it to death but [TS]

00:29:42   like they did they did something you [TS]

00:29:43   know more bounce to the ounce like [TS]

00:29:45   that's that that is the sound of a [TS]

00:29:47   vocoder to me it's something like that [TS]

00:29:48   um and then eventually there will be [TS]

00:29:50   people who reintroduce it like Cher yeah [TS]

00:29:56   supposedly started as an accident I [TS]

00:29:58   think it did and it's it sounds like an [TS]

00:30:00   accident but I think do you believe in [TS]

00:30:02   life after love was the thing that [TS]

00:30:05   turned vocoder from a thing in a memory [TS]

00:30:09   of the distant past to a thing now that [TS]

00:30:12   you can't you know you can't turn on the [TS]

00:30:13   radio without hearing right it felt it [TS]

00:30:15   felt very modern but I'm thinking about [TS]

00:30:17   I don't go to deep down a rabbit hole [TS]

00:30:20   but there's lots of stuff like that [TS]

00:30:21   where like you just but sometimes [TS]

00:30:23   somebody is able to take something that [TS]

00:30:24   seems like it's been pretty tired and [TS]

00:30:26   mix it up but but it's it is that there [TS]

00:30:28   is this sense to me of like even in a [TS]

00:30:30   genre that I'm not super familiar with [TS]

00:30:31   and this is probably cuz I'm an old man [TS]

00:30:34   I will tend to tune out rather quickly [TS]

00:30:35   if it sounds like pretty much all the [TS]

00:30:37   other stuff I've her [TS]

00:30:39   mmm-hmm but like for example like I'm [TS]

00:30:41   not the biggest Bon Iver fan in the [TS]

00:30:43   world like I'd like his stuff okay but [TS]

00:30:45   he was on the recently renamed [TS]

00:30:47   christieelee show last night boy the [TS]

00:30:52   thing he did was weird [TS]

00:30:54   I I don't know what he was doing he did [TS]

00:30:57   the song I don't know he's doing this [TS]

00:30:59   leet speak for all the titles of his [TS]

00:31:01   songs but it's something something 45 is [TS]

00:31:03   the name of this song I don't know what [TS]

00:31:05   in the hell instrument or instruments [TS]

00:31:07   he's playing but unless he had brought [TS]

00:31:10   with them like some exquisitely talented [TS]

00:31:14   string and winds group I think it must [TS]

00:31:17   have been I need to find out what [TS]

00:31:20   instrument he's playing on this because [TS]

00:31:21   I don't think it's live instruments it [TS]

00:31:22   could have been it was so tight it was [TS]

00:31:24   unbelievable but it was weird it was [TS]

00:31:26   ghostly and it made me really perk up [TS]

00:31:27   and III sat and I put down what I was [TS]

00:31:30   doing and I listened to the song like a [TS]

00:31:32   gentleman and it's something like that [TS]

00:31:33   you realize that that however he [TS]

00:31:35   accomplished that it worked like this so [TS]

00:31:38   he did something really differently and [TS]

00:31:39   it really caught me and it didn't hurt [TS]

00:31:41   that the song was also you know it had a [TS]

00:31:44   really great feel to it so I I don't [TS]

00:31:46   know I mean I still think there's so [TS]

00:31:47   much room for something to really catch [TS]

00:31:49   your ear and spark your feeling that [TS]

00:31:51   that googly feeling in your gut of like [TS]

00:31:54   oh this is exciting and new and I'm [TS]

00:31:56   really glad that somebody went there [TS]

00:31:58   with this you know that that most recent [TS]

00:32:01   boniva record which is called 22 comma a [TS]

00:32:04   million kind of like Portugal is now the [TS]

00:32:07   man I have and it's an example of a [TS]

00:32:11   record that i sat with utterly [TS]

00:32:14   fascinated by the production and to the [TS]

00:32:19   point that i was yelling at the speakers [TS]

00:32:21   about it because because listening to it [TS]

00:32:27   there are astonishing choices being made [TS]

00:32:31   and you could feel the choices are at [TS]

00:32:37   least I could feel the choices being [TS]

00:32:39   made as they went down and and I had [TS]

00:32:42   that experience of being like yes [TS]

00:32:46   yes and then you know just like doing [TS]

00:32:52   that that incredible thing that you want [TS]

00:32:54   from an artist which is making a choice [TS]

00:32:56   that both is incredibly gratifying in a [TS]

00:33:00   way where it feels like obvious slash [TS]

00:33:06   almost pandering to my basest needs [TS]

00:33:08   mm-hmm but also completely surprising [TS]

00:33:11   and not at all what I and it doesn't [TS]

00:33:13   feel right you know just like Wow [TS]

00:33:16   awesome like that was it you yes and [TS]

00:33:20   that's one thing in in this age we're [TS]

00:33:22   all so much for media especially movies [TS]

00:33:24   but in many cases music is so if you [TS]

00:33:26   really I hate to be a karma suck but if [TS]

00:33:28   you really really keep scratching at the [TS]

00:33:30   surface you realize how much stuff is [TS]

00:33:31   based on nostalgia or how much stuff is [TS]

00:33:33   based on not just a reboot but on like [TS]

00:33:35   repackaging something really familiar [TS]

00:33:37   and I felt kind of kind of unmoored [TS]

00:33:40   listening to that song like I'm not sure [TS]

00:33:42   what this thing is but it's like [TS]

00:33:43   listening to Eno back in the day or [TS]

00:33:44   something we were like what what planet [TS]

00:33:46   is this from well and and so there's a [TS]

00:33:50   there's a keyboard the first time I saw [TS]

00:33:52   it [TS]

00:33:53   Jonathan Coulton had it and then I [TS]

00:33:56   started to see it in the hands of a lot [TS]

00:33:58   of musicians that I respected and it was [TS]

00:34:00   a it was a thing that people were just [TS]

00:34:03   pulling out of their bag right we'd be [TS]

00:34:05   sitting around and I would come this [TS]

00:34:07   little keyboard and it's smaller then [TS]

00:34:09   then an sk7 it's this tiny little thing [TS]

00:34:15   it's like it's longer than a paperback [TS]

00:34:17   book but thinner than a paperback book [TS]

00:34:19   and it's and it's and it's beautiful [TS]

00:34:21   it's made out of like brushed aluminum [TS]

00:34:23   and it's it's uh it's like a it's just [TS]

00:34:30   machined so beautifully and it's called [TS]

00:34:34   a it's called the op1 okay Wow and it's [TS]

00:34:44   a it's a little just a little synth [TS]

00:34:46   that's made in Stockholm cause this [TS]

00:34:51   thing is gorgeous it's gorgeous and it [TS]

00:34:55   is a synth [TS]

00:34:56   and it's a sequencer and it like [TS]

00:34:59   it does all these fun things that are [TS]

00:35:09   hang on I'm I'm looking up I said I said [TS]

00:35:14   sk7 but what I meant was sk-1 like a [TS]

00:35:17   Casio the little caffeine yeah I know [TS]

00:35:19   but this is teenaged if you wanna Google [TS]

00:35:20   this is teenage engineering Opie - one [TS]

00:35:23   and so this is a thing as it looks it [TS]

00:35:26   looks like it would be difficult to tell [TS]

00:35:27   if this were a prop in a movie it would [TS]

00:35:30   be hard to know what decade it's from [TS]

00:35:32   apart you know what I mean it's it's got [TS]

00:35:34   a timeless kind of wackadoo digital [TS]

00:35:36   quality to it it does and it's you know [TS]

00:35:39   it's very gratifying to have in your [TS]

00:35:40   hands like when you press down the keys [TS]

00:35:42   they feel really satisfyingly kind of [TS]

00:35:48   solid it's it's a small enough to guess [TS]

00:35:51   that from looking at this it looks like [TS]

00:35:52   it's just little like like little like [TS]

00:35:54   the pads on like a cheap laptop no it's [TS]

00:35:57   not cheap at all it's just it's clicky [TS]

00:35:59   and it's chunky and it just fit and [TS]

00:36:02   considering how small it is at that if [TS]

00:36:05   it fits in a it fits in your like your [TS]

00:36:09   messenger bag it is surprisingly heavy [TS]

00:36:12   like it's milled there's no plastic on [TS]

00:36:14   it like dance it's dense and it's not [TS]

00:36:18   big so you could it's not like you could [TS]

00:36:19   sit and like play the grand piano on it [TS]

00:36:22   but within it it has its own it has all [TS]

00:36:26   this processing power I can you can loop [TS]

00:36:28   you there's drums in it you can you can [TS]

00:36:31   kind of make all kinds of music out of [TS]

00:36:34   it and Colton pulled it out of his bag [TS]

00:36:36   and I was like whoa what's that and he [TS]

00:36:37   was like check it out and he's you know [TS]

00:36:39   mr. gizmo and so he has pants he'll get [TS]

00:36:44   these things and he'll play him for a [TS]

00:36:45   while and then they'll kind of you know [TS]

00:36:47   they end up on his on his gizmo wall and [TS]

00:36:50   he uses them for sure but like you know [TS]

00:36:53   if you've ever seen him on tour right he [TS]

00:36:55   pulls out something that whatever that [TS]

00:36:58   crazy is he plays that thing that thing [TS]

00:37:05   was that thing was a piece of joke [TS]

00:37:07   comedy equipment that he turned into [TS]

00:37:09   well like ultimate ultra ultra joke [TS]

00:37:12   comedy thing [TS]

00:37:13   anyway so he really knows what he's [TS]

00:37:15   doing with he does good I'm gonna have [TS]

00:37:17   to say like I am not much of a musician [TS]

00:37:19   but watching him play that it looks like [TS]

00:37:20   there's a million ways that thing could [TS]

00:37:22   go horribly wrong yeah I mean he's a [TS]

00:37:25   genius there's no argument stream anyway [TS]

00:37:27   so I started seeing this op1 get pulled [TS]

00:37:29   out of bags backstage all the time you [TS]

00:37:32   know it's the type of thing that Matthew [TS]

00:37:33   cause suddenly had won and and and the [TS]

00:37:38   the the problem is it's a thousand bucks [TS]

00:37:41   and so it was the type of thing that [TS]

00:37:45   when I first saw it I felt like I gotta [TS]

00:37:47   get one of those but then it was a [TS]

00:37:51   thousand bucks which is not cheap and [TS]

00:37:55   the thing about an sk1 was that it was [TS]

00:37:57   it was cheap it was cheap when it was [TS]

00:37:59   new and I mean I used to find them at [TS]

00:38:01   thrift stores for for five to ten [TS]

00:38:03   dollars this is a thousand bucks and [TS]

00:38:05   it's absolutely worth it feels worth it [TS]

00:38:07   but it turned out that almost everything [TS]

00:38:11   on that record 22 comma a million were [TS]

00:38:17   either made with or run through an Opie [TS]

00:38:22   one wow that is super interesting that [TS]

00:38:26   little fucking gizmo he and this is you [TS]

00:38:30   know boney bears whole trip right he [TS]

00:38:33   made that first record out in his dad's [TS]

00:38:35   cabin on a on a tape machine made out of [TS]

00:38:39   a beer bottle and a raccoon tail and and [TS]

00:38:44   you go like well done like dude well [TS]

00:38:47   done like creative guy and when this [TS]

00:38:51   record came out part of the part of my [TS]

00:38:53   experience of listening to it the first [TS]

00:38:54   couple times was like oh ho well now [TS]

00:38:57   you're now you're mister got all the [TS]

00:39:00   money in the world and so you're just [TS]

00:39:04   like you got a fare like yeah right [TS]

00:39:08   you're making you're making like a [TS]

00:39:09   billion dollar record in a studio you're [TS]

00:39:11   probably like every day somebody brings [TS]

00:39:14   in a giant tray of chopped crap all that [TS]

00:39:18   nobody needs and then the Dark Twisted [TS]

00:39:20   Fantasy Island he's out there and people [TS]

00:39:21   just hanging out on the couch for like [TS]

00:39:22   just months making the album right [TS]

00:39:25   but in fact it's him with this fucking [TS]

00:39:28   little thing and and what I was yelling [TS]

00:39:33   at about the production is that that it [TS]

00:39:36   was the best kind of yelling at the [TS]

00:39:39   radio for me now which is that I could [TS]

00:39:42   feel myself in that chair I could feel [TS]

00:39:44   myself as the producer of that record [TS]

00:39:46   and I heard choices that I disagreed [TS]

00:39:50   with and you know and the thing is [TS]

00:39:53   they're tiny it's just like no no no no [TS]

00:39:55   no no don't you put the effect on it the [TS]

00:39:58   first time then leave it off the second [TS]

00:40:01   time and when it came back or you could [TS]

00:40:03   feel it coming back around and I was [TS]

00:40:04   like you're gonna have that effect on it [TS]

00:40:06   and that's the wrong choice and it came [TS]

00:40:08   back around and it didn't have the [TS]

00:40:09   effect on and I was like no and and I [TS]

00:40:12   felt it every time it went by and I mean [TS]

00:40:15   this is like interacting with a widow [TS]

00:40:17   with a brilliantly produced thing and [TS]

00:40:21   interacting with it not as a like a [TS]

00:40:25   passive listener not as somebody that's [TS]

00:40:27   like how is this Wow what's going but [TS]

00:40:29   somebody that where I was sitting there [TS]

00:40:31   like I know I know you agonized over [TS]

00:40:35   whether or not to do that and in the end [TS]

00:40:38   you chose to do it and if I were there I [TS]

00:40:42   would have argued against it and that [TS]

00:40:44   kind of like that kind of relationship [TS]

00:40:48   to production is like it is like when [TS]

00:40:53   you become a musician and you first hear [TS]

00:40:54   the bass line in god only knows and [TS]

00:40:58   you're like well now I can't ever hear [TS]

00:41:00   it without hearing the I can never hear [TS]

00:41:02   it without hearing that whatever that [TS]

00:41:05   triangle because I'm because having [TS]

00:41:08   become conscious of it you can't ever [TS]

00:41:11   put it back in the box I want to be a [TS]

00:41:16   producer because I because it's an art [TS]

00:41:21   that I really identify with like I [TS]

00:41:25   really I want I don't want to be a [TS]

00:41:28   producer that is like no I don't I [TS]

00:41:31   didn't hear that sound so I just erased [TS]

00:41:33   it I want to be a producer that's like [TS]

00:41:35   what [TS]

00:41:36   you know like what do you want and let's [TS]

00:41:39   find it but then but then advocating for [TS]

00:41:44   that kind of thing like what if on the [TS]

00:41:46   second one we didn't do it [TS]

00:41:47   what if we didn't go back right but so [TS]

00:41:50   way beyond an engineer but not at the [TS]

00:41:53   point where you're just like a name that [TS]

00:41:54   gets slapped on it but you're somebody [TS]

00:41:55   who could say like here's here's a [TS]

00:41:56   palette of things that might complement [TS]

00:41:58   what you've told me you're trying to do [TS]

00:42:00   like I don't want to be an engineer at [TS]

00:42:02   all that that aspect of it I know enough [TS]

00:42:05   about to to say like here's what I'm [TS]

00:42:08   hearing [TS]

00:42:09   I want a side chain this so that it only [TS]

00:42:13   triggers the reverb when it goes above [TS]

00:42:15   this and the engineer knows what I'm [TS]

00:42:18   talking about or I mean you know I I [TS]

00:42:20   want to be able to know the technology [TS]

00:42:21   enough to be able to say here's what I [TS]

00:42:23   wanted here's what I mean well almost as [TS]

00:42:25   a director is - a DP or cinematographer [TS]

00:42:28   like you say like you go do your thing [TS]

00:42:29   to go make it make look like this it's [TS]

00:42:31   the same you know how to do it then you [TS]

00:42:33   can describe it in the terms that right [TS]

00:42:35   I mean that's yeah but yeah you get [TS]

00:42:36   people for that right and but not at all [TS]

00:42:40   like the slap your name on a thing like [TS]

00:42:42   I want to be in the trenches with with [TS]

00:42:45   artists making music because the because [TS]

00:42:48   it's really hard to do for yourself it's [TS]

00:42:51   really hard to be the writer/director [TS]

00:42:55   star and you know and like producer of [TS]

00:42:59   your own film even if you're the writer [TS]

00:43:03   director star there's a producer [TS]

00:43:05   generally and and but breaking into that [TS]

00:43:12   because there have been quite a few [TS]

00:43:15   artists who have considered me as the [TS]

00:43:18   producer I don't mean that they that [TS]

00:43:21   they call me their producer well but [TS]

00:43:23   like yeah hey we're in the running for [TS]

00:43:25   the role right I was in the running to [TS]

00:43:28   make the record and in and I've only [TS]

00:43:30   ever recorded I've only ever produced [TS]

00:43:32   three albums that weren't connected to [TS]

00:43:35   me one of them was the most popular one [TS]

00:43:38   was Shelby Earls debut record and I'm [TS]

00:43:42   super proud of Shelby Earl's debut [TS]

00:43:45   record burn the boats [TS]

00:43:48   and I produced a record for a guy named [TS]

00:43:50   Eric Hauck who is currently the guitar [TS]

00:43:53   player in Portugal the man and he's a [TS]

00:43:56   very mercurial guy and he never released [TS]

00:43:58   it oh man it's a brilliant record and [TS]

00:44:02   but by which I mean he is a great player [TS]

00:44:04   and his songs are great but he had he [TS]

00:44:08   had some he had whatever insecurities [TS]

00:44:11   about it and then he kind of feels like [TS]

00:44:15   oh well we made that 10 years ago and [TS]

00:44:18   it's not really relevant anymore it's [TS]

00:44:21   like it's a great record it's always [TS]

00:44:23   relevant and then I produced a record [TS]

00:44:26   for my niece Elizabeth Roderick that [TS]

00:44:29   also super proud of I think it's clay [TS]

00:44:32   imagine it's probably hard to find but [TS]

00:44:36   you know I was in the running to produce [TS]

00:44:38   Kathleen Edwards's record and then [TS]

00:44:41   Kathleen Edwards started dating boney [TS]

00:44:44   their son and the record label was like [TS]

00:44:47   well we could pay to have this record [TS]

00:44:49   made by John Roderick or we could have [TS]

00:44:53   it made by boney there who is at the at [TS]

00:44:56   who was at that moment like number one [TS]

00:44:59   on the charts with a bullet and so I [TS]

00:45:02   missed out on on producing that crack [TS]

00:45:04   record and I had a lot of angry things [TS]

00:45:08   to yell at the speaker's listening to it [TS]

00:45:11   because he made a lot of choices for her [TS]

00:45:15   music that I wouldn't have I mean that [TS]

00:45:17   felt to me like obvious at the time like [TS]

00:45:20   yeah she's a female singer songwriter [TS]

00:45:22   with an acoustic guitar sure so you made [TS]

00:45:26   Yankee Hotel Foxtrot but that's not what [TS]

00:45:31   I guess what the album wanted no I don't [TS]

00:45:34   think that's what the songs wanted I [TS]

00:45:36   don't think that's what she wanted in [TS]

00:45:37   her life at the time and but you know [TS]

00:45:41   that was very hard for her to say not [TS]

00:45:44   sure because shit boney bears producing [TS]

00:45:47   your record and oh also you know like [TS]

00:45:49   you're in a relationship with them it's [TS]

00:45:50   very hard to be like you know I kind of [TS]

00:45:53   we were half because you know she and I [TS]

00:45:55   had been talking production we were not [TS]

00:45:57   halfway along [TS]

00:45:58   it was like I wanted to make I wanted to [TS]

00:46:01   make that record sound like the first [TS]

00:46:02   Pretenders record I've only just hang [TS]

00:46:04   out with her she's amazing I like her I [TS]

00:46:06   spent that little bit of time of your [TS]

00:46:08   house with her boy I like that person [TS]

00:46:09   she has a lot of deep calm [TS]

00:46:12   yeah but she's she's fast and funny my [TS]

00:46:15   god she's fast and funny she is [TS]

00:46:17   oh she she's she's dynamite and she [TS]

00:46:20   posted a thing on Instagram yesterday [TS]

00:46:22   which was she was out walking in the [TS]

00:46:25   forest behind her house in Ontario and [TS]

00:46:30   she found like a giant Jackrabbit dead [TS]

00:46:33   Jackrabbit hanging from a tree not [TS]

00:46:35   hanging like by its neck but just like [TS]

00:46:37   draped over a branch here that's not [TS]

00:46:39   good for property values and she and [TS]

00:46:42   then she found like a dismembered coyote [TS]

00:46:44   oh come on she was like so her her life [TS]

00:46:56   continues to be very interesting you've [TS]

00:47:00   been thinking about this this has been [TS]

00:47:02   on your mind you're thinking is this [TS]

00:47:03   something you think you'd like to do [TS]

00:47:05   well the problem is the life of a [TS]

00:47:07   producer is not the life that I want I [TS]

00:47:09   have a lot of friends that are that are [TS]

00:47:11   producers that's the career they chose [TS]

00:47:13   for themselves [TS]

00:47:14   and I think it's very gratifying work [TS]

00:47:17   for them but they never see the Sun and [TS]

00:47:19   they go from one completely encompassing [TS]

00:47:24   project to the next so they work on [TS]

00:47:25   something for three weeks where they're [TS]

00:47:27   just in the studio with these musicians [TS]

00:47:31   who are like frantically scrambling to [TS]

00:47:33   try and get their vision down and they [TS]

00:47:37   stay Shepherd this thing all the way [TS]

00:47:39   from zero to a fully fledged thing you [TS]

00:47:44   have to be comfortable with with the [TS]

00:47:46   idea that like we don't have all the [TS]

00:47:48   time in the world that that's the take [TS]

00:47:50   moving on you know all this stuff that's [TS]

00:47:53   in some ways like anti perfectionism [TS]

00:47:56   mm-hmm you make choices and you go [TS]

00:48:00   and you come to the end and you have a [TS]

00:48:02   finished product and it you know at the [TS]

00:48:05   beginning of a record it could be any [TS]

00:48:07   one of a thousand things but at the end [TS]

00:48:09   of a record it is what it is and you can [TS]

00:48:13   scrap it and go back and make that [TS]

00:48:14   record again differently but you [TS]

00:48:16   probably aren't going to you made it [TS]

00:48:18   right that's the thing about the first [TS]

00:48:19   long winter's record at the end it was [TS]

00:48:22   what it was and because it was a first [TS]

00:48:26   record it established the tone of the [TS]

00:48:28   band going forward and I wouldn't want [TS]

00:48:35   to do that [TS]

00:48:35   all year long I wouldn't want to make 12 [TS]

00:48:39   records in a year it would just be it's [TS]

00:48:41   just - it would be overwhelming but I [TS]

00:48:46   would love to make a record every year [TS]

00:48:49   but with somebody with somebody or two [TS]

00:48:52   to records a year where it was like yeah [TS]

00:48:54   I'm gonna go I mean every time Death Cab [TS]

00:48:57   goes in to make a new record I'm always [TS]

00:48:58   like you should have me produce this one [TS]

00:49:00   and they are records oh yeah they're [TS]

00:49:04   making one right now no kidding [TS]

00:49:08   they are always making records and you [TS]

00:49:13   know their records continually evolve I [TS]

00:49:16   don't think they understand how [TS]

00:49:18   fantastic a job I would do as the [TS]

00:49:21   producer of their album more than pity [TS]

00:49:23   on that my goodness they should at least [TS]

00:49:25   least have you in I mean just [TS]

00:49:26   that's ridiculous well it's not it's not [TS]

00:49:29   a thing that could ever happen and when [TS]

00:49:30   I say it they there's like that there's [TS]

00:49:33   that laugh of like ha ha ha and then a [TS]

00:49:36   little bit of fear in the eyes that I'm [TS]

00:49:38   serious yeah like me asking if I can [TS]

00:49:40   drive right this episode of Roderick on [TS]

00:49:46   the line is brought to you by [TS]

00:49:46   Squarespace you learn more about [TS]

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00:49:54   things that you can do with Squarespace [TS]

00:49:55   you can do what I'm doing right now you [TS]

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00:49:58   crazy but there's so much more with [TS]

00:50:00   Squarespace you can create a beautiful [TS]

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00:50:10   services of all kinds you can promote [TS]

00:50:12   your physical or online business [TS]

00:50:14   and put up photos you can make a gallery [TS]

00:50:15   you can announce an upcoming event I do [TS]

00:50:17   that with my ungainly x-men meet up [TS]

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00:51:16   yourself and maybe even your friends and [TS]

00:51:18   family out of the web master business [TS]

00:51:19   you gotta get on this Squarespace it's [TS]

00:51:21   just the it's a great place to go so [TS]

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00:51:31   sounds that'll save you 10% off your [TS]

00:51:34   first purchase of a website or a domain [TS]

00:51:36   and as always our thanks to Squarespace [TS]

00:51:38   for supporting Roderick on the line and [TS]

00:51:40   all the great shows you're there like no [TS]

00:51:52   seriously yeah I mean did I mean you [TS]

00:51:58   have obviously strong feelings about it [TS]

00:52:00   is that ever a thing that if somebody [TS]

00:52:02   came to you and said like hey we want [TS]

00:52:03   Maryland man to produce our album well [TS]

00:52:06   no but I'm thinking a lot about what [TS]

00:52:08   you're saying and it's I mean I guess to [TS]

00:52:12   me it's difficult not to separate it [TS]

00:52:14   from what I think of as being a film [TS]

00:52:15   director and both both of those jobs so [TS]

00:52:18   I mean we could stick to just music but [TS]

00:52:19   in either case like it really is an [TS]

00:52:21   impossible task you go into making an [TS]

00:52:24   album or making a movie I mean [TS]

00:52:27   you've got to be so crazy to go into [TS]

00:52:29   that because it is it's it's impossible [TS]

00:52:30   there's no way to get everything the way [TS]

00:52:32   everybody wants [TS]

00:52:33   there's always time limits there's [TS]

00:52:34   always money limits and if there aren't [TS]

00:52:36   time in money limits you still might [TS]

00:52:37   make total shit it's like you but also [TS]

00:52:40   the personality traits required to be a [TS]

00:52:43   a good and talented producer are I don't [TS]

00:52:48   know I marvel at people who can hit all [TS]

00:52:51   tick all the boxes so you think of [TS]

00:52:53   somebody who on the one hand really [TS]

00:52:55   knows who they are I know that sounds [TS]

00:52:56   silly but somebody who knows who they [TS]

00:52:57   are they know the edges of their [TS]

00:53:00   humanity and like okay here's where I [TS]

00:53:01   stop and the other people begin like [TS]

00:53:04   really understand like so I mean like [TS]

00:53:06   honestly to be a truly mature shading [TS]

00:53:11   into parental character like us like a [TS]

00:53:13   super dad or a super mom somebody who's [TS]

00:53:15   really really able to separate [TS]

00:53:17   themselves from from the process from [TS]

00:53:19   the people from the product from you [TS]

00:53:21   know and and and then just the million [TS]

00:53:23   skills you need inside of that or would [TS]

00:53:25   benefit from inside of that hobbies' lee [TS]

00:53:26   having a great year knowing what [TS]

00:53:28   something wants to be rather than what [TS]

00:53:29   it is right now being able to help [TS]

00:53:31   people articulate something they don't [TS]

00:53:33   know they're even thinking right now [TS]

00:53:34   being able to as I say bring in a [TS]

00:53:36   palette that isn't just a bunch of [TS]

00:53:38   gimmicks and gizmos but to be able to [TS]

00:53:40   say like well you know this is one thing [TS]

00:53:42   we could try to do this the ability to [TS]

00:53:45   as you say keep things moving right like [TS]

00:53:48   look you like you like you would say [TS]

00:53:50   with guitar solos' back in the day like [TS]

00:53:51   we're not gonna do this for TTS this is [TS]

00:53:52   not hound-dog we're not gonna do this 42 [TS]

00:53:54   times so what's the right amount of time [TS]

00:53:55   how do you know when you're pushing it [TS]

00:53:57   too far do you want to do like a [TS]

00:53:58   finisher in a Kubrick where you just [TS]

00:53:59   keep doing this until the person wants [TS]

00:54:00   to kill you or do you say you got three [TS]

00:54:02   shots give me your best or something [TS]

00:54:04   else because that's you know how that [TS]

00:54:05   works I just feel like it's so difficult [TS]

00:54:08   for me to even concentrate on one and a [TS]

00:54:09   half things at a time it's amazing to me [TS]

00:54:12   that that person could be somebody who [TS]

00:54:14   could for example feel comfortable [TS]

00:54:16   talking to whoever owns Warner Brothers [TS]

00:54:18   this week like to be able to talk to the [TS]

00:54:20   people above you and sort of below you [TS]

00:54:22   and beside you keep everybody confident [TS]

00:54:25   that this is on track it's a cask ill [TS]

00:54:27   set that makes my mind swim and I know [TS]

00:54:29   you don't have to have all those things [TS]

00:54:30   you could just be affordable and patient [TS]

00:54:33   but like to be really good at that [TS]

00:54:35   requires a set of skills that represents [TS]

00:54:37   almost everything I'm more of a lot in a [TS]

00:54:39   person [TS]

00:54:40   yeah it's a it is a set of skills that [TS]

00:54:45   is that is I think a lot of people in [TS]

00:54:49   the music world think it's a set of [TS]

00:54:52   skills that can be learned because [TS]

00:54:54   there's so much effort put into software [TS]

00:54:58   recording software and recording gear of [TS]

00:55:03   all kinds there are so many boxes there [TS]

00:55:05   are so many instruction manuals and the [TS]

00:55:09   era of the home recordists produced [TS]

00:55:13   thousands and thousands of people who [TS]

00:55:16   could legitimately describe themselves [TS]

00:55:17   as producers because they have produced [TS]

00:55:20   albums on their Mac and as they got you [TS]

00:55:27   know they read the the data they they [TS]

00:55:29   tested things out they tried they [TS]

00:55:31   listened to other records they got [TS]

00:55:33   really good drum sounds they got really [TS]

00:55:35   good sounds ultimately they were making [TS]

00:55:39   they were engineering great records or [TS]

00:55:43   at least not maybe great records but [TS]

00:55:45   they were they were able to engineer [TS]

00:55:47   competently confident yeah even records [TS]

00:55:50   yeah but the there is like all art a [TS]

00:55:55   thing that cannot be learned that is [TS]

00:55:58   feel and is emotion and when you're [TS]

00:56:02   talking to musicians about making a [TS]

00:56:03   record or when you're shepherding that [TS]

00:56:06   process you're dealing with this [TS]

00:56:09   incredible world of like these are this [TS]

00:56:14   is in some ways like peak ego moments [TS]

00:56:18   for people but also the place where they [TS]

00:56:21   are most vulnerable the music is [TS]

00:56:23   generally like coming from somewhere [TS]

00:56:24   inside them that they are maybe not in [TS]

00:56:28   contact with directly that's why it's [TS]

00:56:31   coming out as music they're using [TS]

00:56:34   they're they're using their voices [TS]

00:56:35   they're using their bodies you're [TS]

00:56:39   dealing with multiple people multiple [TS]

00:56:40   and everybody's whether they know it or [TS]

00:56:42   not maybe doesn't know I was gonna say [TS]

00:56:44   agenda that's not the right way to put [TS]

00:56:45   it but you know you're expected to rise [TS]

00:56:49   above you're paid you're compensated to [TS]

00:56:51   rise above all of that on some [TS]

00:56:53   you're empowered by somebody to be the [TS]

00:56:55   project manager for this piece of art [TS]

00:56:56   which is a lot of responsibility at a [TS]

00:56:59   crucial level yes and at a crucial level [TS]

00:57:02   you need to be right down in the blood [TS]

00:57:06   and guts of it with people because you [TS]

00:57:10   know there there are million producers [TS]

00:57:12   out there who have learned to do it on [TS]

00:57:15   their Mac and they're sitting in the [TS]

00:57:17   room and they're recording you and the [TS]

00:57:19   singer go does it take and goes how was [TS]

00:57:21   that and the person on the other side [TS]

00:57:24   goes it was good how did it sound to you [TS]

00:57:26   mm-hmm [TS]

00:57:27   and that is not that's about as useful [TS]

00:57:30   as when I say what do you want for [TS]

00:57:31   dinner and they say whatever you want [TS]

00:57:32   that's like well you know I'm asking you [TS]

00:57:33   because I don't want to have to decide [TS]

00:57:34   this on my own but you ought to be a [TS]

00:57:36   great editor right you also so it's one [TS]

00:57:38   thing and I'm not in any way trying to [TS]

00:57:40   diminish what I'm calling engineering [TS]

00:57:41   the the the skills and the mechanics of [TS]

00:57:44   spending years learning how to make [TS]

00:57:47   sounds in a studio is amazing and [TS]

00:57:50   certainly you know that through the [TS]

00:57:52   compressors through the board all [TS]

00:57:53   through the entire stack that is an [TS]

00:57:55   entire skill set but then to have mostly [TS]

00:57:57   mastered that plus be able to say let's [TS]

00:58:00   leave out that second chorus or let's [TS]

00:58:02   have the bass do this here or could we [TS]

00:58:04   try it this way or why don't you go [TS]

00:58:05   record this in the bathroom or like [TS]

00:58:07   we're really just being able to say that [TS]

00:58:08   song is not up to snuff or let's try [TS]

00:58:10   that vocal one more time that's a very [TS]

00:58:13   different skill from being able to make [TS]

00:58:14   something that that doesn't overdrive [TS]

00:58:16   the speakers what I mean to be able to [TS]

00:58:19   go from competent to like you're getting [TS]

00:58:21   into this very hazy cloudy world of like [TS]

00:58:24   it's very much value judgments well let [TS]

00:58:27   alone let alone being able to go into [TS]

00:58:32   the room sit down with a singer and go [TS]

00:58:35   you know you're singing this from from a [TS]

00:58:40   place that isn't like reading as [TS]

00:58:42   completely believable because it feels [TS]

00:58:45   like you're singing it from from a space [TS]

00:58:50   where you're examining the you're [TS]

00:58:53   examining the protagonist [TS]

00:58:55   and what the song and the song is [TS]

00:58:58   written in the language as though the [TS]

00:59:00   protagonist truly believed his situation [TS]

00:59:04   and not that he was being examined by [TS]

00:59:06   someone smarter than him so huh you're [TS]

00:59:09   the singer you've written this song it [TS]

00:59:11   is in this person's voice and now you're [TS]

00:59:13   afraid to be that person in the studio [TS]

00:59:15   and you're thinking you're smarter than [TS]

00:59:17   that person and now you're here singing [TS]

00:59:19   it with your tongue in your cheek and [TS]

00:59:21   it's not reading and to be able to save [TS]

00:59:24   that kind of thing to a singer in a [TS]

00:59:27   language because different singers will [TS]

00:59:28   be able to hear that differently and you [TS]

00:59:32   need to know the language of the person [TS]

00:59:34   you're talking to to be able to say [TS]

00:59:36   something like that to them where they [TS]

00:59:39   go right and then to be able to say one [TS]

00:59:44   way that you can accomplish that is to [TS]

00:59:45   stop having your voice coming from [TS]

00:59:47   behind your eyeballs and start trying to [TS]

00:59:50   make your voice come from between your [TS]

00:59:52   nipples mm-hmm and then walk away you [TS]

00:59:55   know and and be able to connect the [TS]

00:59:58   intellectual [TS]

00:59:58   intellectual [TS]

01:00:00   perience of like you're not singing this [TS]

01:00:02   truthfully and then be able to give them [TS]

01:00:05   a physiological cue that sounds crazy to [TS]

01:00:07   someone that isn't a singer be like [TS]

01:00:09   you're putting the music behind your [TS]

01:00:10   eyes and you need to put it from behind [TS]

01:00:12   your ears and you say that to a singer [TS]

01:00:15   you say that to a group of people and [TS]

01:00:17   they're like what I mean that's like [TS]

01:00:19   sounds woowoo or it just sounds idiotic [TS]

01:00:21   but if you say it to a singer and [TS]

01:00:24   they're in there [TS]

01:00:25   in front of the microphone and they are [TS]

01:00:27   like oh shit I was putting it behind my [TS]

01:00:29   eyes and then they put it behind their [TS]

01:00:30   ears which wasn't a thing that they'd [TS]

01:00:32   ever thought of before and it works you [TS]

01:00:34   know that stuff so it's not like so [TS]

01:00:37   comparing that job to an engineer is [TS]

01:00:40   like saying well this guy works on the [TS]

01:00:43   this guy is like a genius at making this [TS]

01:00:46   racecar motor run really great so that [TS]

01:00:50   means that he will probably also be a [TS]

01:00:52   great team owner who's like and also a [TS]

01:00:57   great driving instructor and recruiter [TS]

01:00:59   of drivers who he has to persuade to be [TS]

01:01:02   on his team yeah they're just it's like [TS]

01:01:04   it's utterly different but the problem [TS]

01:01:06   is that that guys who have taught [TS]

01:01:08   themselves engineering on their max feel [TS]

01:01:11   insulted by this the suggestion that [TS]

01:01:16   that what they're doing isn't production [TS]

01:01:19   because it is and within you know within [TS]

01:01:22   the hip-hop world if you just make beats [TS]

01:01:25   you're called a producer like that's [TS]

01:01:28   actually the name of that job like it's [TS]

01:01:32   like oh I'm the producer and basically [TS]

01:01:34   it's because the track is just somebody [TS]

01:01:37   rhyming over what you built your the 808 [TS]

01:01:40   estab a you know and you're probably not [TS]

01:01:46   in that job sitting there working with [TS]

01:01:50   the vocalist like about whether he's [TS]

01:01:53   singing it from behind his eyes or not [TS]

01:01:55   and there are you know like I'm sure [TS]

01:01:58   that if you're working with Rick Rubin [TS]

01:02:00   or you're working with dr. Dre they are [TS]

01:02:01   involved at that level but there's a lot [TS]

01:02:04   of music that you can just tell it's one [TS]

01:02:06   of the things when you listen to stuff [TS]

01:02:08   on the radio as a as a casual listener [TS]

01:02:11   you're not often conscious of the fact [TS]

01:02:13   that [TS]

01:02:13   the problem you're having with a song [TS]

01:02:16   the reason you don't like it is that the [TS]

01:02:18   singer isn't isn't believable it within [TS]

01:02:22   the music that they themselves wrote and [TS]

01:02:26   it's because they got divorced from they [TS]

01:02:30   got divorced from what they wrote [TS]

01:02:31   at some point which isn't hard to do [TS]

01:02:35   it's easy to get divorced it's why I [TS]

01:02:38   can't listen to modern country because I [TS]

01:02:41   don't believe it I don't believe any of [TS]

01:02:43   it because of because the that vocal [TS]

01:02:46   style is so affected I recognize it as [TS]

01:02:50   country I'm not trying to be one of [TS]

01:02:52   those like Hank Williams guys but like [TS]

01:02:54   when I hear things that are called [TS]

01:02:55   country music I'm like wow this I [TS]

01:02:57   realize things evolved but this sounds [TS]

01:02:59   so much more like hip-hop than country [TS]

01:03:01   to me [TS]

01:03:02   well just in the sense that it's so it [TS]

01:03:04   is so affect not affected in the way you [TS]

01:03:07   would think but it's just every single [TS]

01:03:10   little edge has been shaved off of it [TS]

01:03:12   and it's auto-tune and super shiny and [TS]

01:03:14   it sounds like one of those Swedish [TS]

01:03:16   producers like made a country album but [TS]

01:03:18   not really like people kept talking [TS]

01:03:20   about what this is this is the album [TS]

01:03:21   where Taylor Swift is finally all off of [TS]

01:03:23   country and and can totally pop and I'm [TS]

01:03:25   like I don't know man she's been pretty [TS]

01:03:27   pop for a while yeah right well and I [TS]

01:03:30   think the difference is that there's not [TS]

01:03:32   that like that weird drawl a weird draw [TS]

01:03:36   that's that feels like San Francisco [TS]

01:03:38   punk bands that sing in English music [TS]

01:03:41   not just in the affectation of the voice [TS]

01:03:42   yeah yeah right which is just like oh [TS]

01:03:45   yeah but Dolph's naked herb lamp lamp [TS]

01:03:48   lamp and it's like no it's all so corny [TS]

01:03:53   just adding a pedal steel at the last [TS]

01:03:55   minute does not make this a country song [TS]

01:03:56   I heard that on the radio the other day [TS]

01:03:58   or no I guess I was in a store and some [TS]

01:04:00   song came on and from the way that this [TS]

01:04:03   drum sounded I was like how long till [TS]

01:04:07   the pedal steel I was just counting it [TS]

01:04:08   down and then there it was like fine and [TS]

01:04:12   I'm like you know the pedal steel is an [TS]

01:04:14   incredible instrument I mean it's [TS]

01:04:16   incredible it's got so much to say and [TS]

01:04:18   so many different emotions it's awesome [TS]

01:04:21   if you put if you run it into a [TS]

01:04:23   distortion box if you run it into a [TS]

01:04:24   chorus pedal if you run it into [TS]

01:04:26   delay pedal it can do it's like us it's [TS]

01:04:30   like a synthesizer I mean it can make so [TS]

01:04:32   many tones and it's so that it's like [TS]

01:04:34   it's like the country music saltshaker [TS]

01:04:35   just it's so criminally underused it's [TS]

01:04:38   just like wow like oh it's here it is [TS]

01:04:41   this is a high lonesome song one more [TS]

01:04:44   high lonesome I mean thinking the [TS]

01:04:47   highlights [TS]

01:04:47   think about them the way just a lap [TS]

01:04:50   steel is used it within Hawaiian music [TS]

01:04:52   mm-hmm it creates all that spooky whims [TS]

01:04:55   the sound of Hawaiian music and it's the [TS]

01:04:58   same it's the same instrument that's [TS]

01:05:00   being used over here you know wow it's [TS]

01:05:05   like oh fuck somebody should steal like [TS]

01:05:07   the great pedal steel player should all [TS]

01:05:10   march out of Nashville and just go start [TS]

01:05:13   you know they should just start working [TS]

01:05:15   with with the t-pain fucking do [TS]

01:05:21   something else yeah both both sides [TS]

01:05:24   everybody do something else we're gonna [TS]

01:05:25   we're gonna flip it here we're gonna [TS]

01:05:26   flip the switch mix it up a little bit [TS]

01:05:28   yeah all the all the beat producers go [TS]

01:05:31   over to Nashville and all the pedal [TS]

01:05:32   steel players head out to LA into [TS]

01:05:34   downtown Atlanta [TS]

01:05:35   so usually when you mention something on [TS]

01:05:40   the show it's something you've been [TS]

01:05:41   thinking about for a while I guess [TS]

01:05:42   sometimes it could be something that's [TS]

01:05:43   just coming out because you it's [TS]

01:05:44   occurring to you is there something [TS]

01:05:45   you've been thinking about for a while [TS]

01:05:48   did you just recently realize you've [TS]

01:05:51   been thinking about this for a while I [TS]

01:05:53   don't think that I I mean I've been [TS]

01:05:58   thinking about this ever since ever [TS]

01:06:02   since the the the forth long winters [TS]

01:06:05   record went off that went off the trail [TS]

01:06:08   because in the making of the fourth long [TS]

01:06:12   winters record I was I had evolved to [TS]

01:06:15   the point where I I felt like I was [TS]

01:06:18   doing pretty great production work and [TS]

01:06:21   that production work was such a separate [TS]

01:06:27   job from my actual job of being the [TS]

01:06:31   songwriter and the singer and it was in [TS]

01:06:34   some ways more interesting to me and [TS]

01:06:38   what ended up happening was [TS]

01:06:40   I I produced well effectively an [TS]

01:06:44   instrumental record I never went in and [TS]

01:06:48   did my vocals and partly it was that I [TS]

01:06:51   had that the the job of the vocals I had [TS]

01:06:54   fulfilled with melodic instruments but [TS]

01:07:00   the record sounded great you know and [TS]

01:07:05   and I couldn't wait to mix it and it was [TS]

01:07:09   just this like this frustrating thing [TS]

01:07:15   that I needed to figure out god I gotta [TS]

01:07:17   put vocals on this thing and in the end [TS]

01:07:19   I never did I never put vocals on it [TS]

01:07:22   that record just sits there unfinished [TS]

01:07:26   and the experience of of working on that [TS]

01:07:33   production every day and and in [TS]

01:07:35   conjunction with Erik Corson who has [TS]

01:07:38   become now a great producer in his own [TS]

01:07:42   right and was a great engineer even then [TS]

01:07:49   it felt like oh you know this is [TS]

01:07:52   something I could do this is like a this [TS]

01:07:55   is another thing I could do now right [TS]

01:07:58   now the idea that in addition to having [TS]

01:08:02   three unfinished records for podcasts a [TS]

01:08:06   book deal that I haven't pursued that [TS]

01:08:11   what I also need to do is throw my hat [TS]

01:08:14   in the ring as a record producer [TS]

01:08:16   it's just feels like what I need to do [TS]

01:08:19   is is figure out a method of finishing [TS]

01:08:23   things rather than chase down an mother [TS]

01:08:27   for you that's that's a that's a hell of [TS]

01:08:30   an insight well I mean it is it's very [TS]

01:08:37   much of an insight I mean that's that's [TS]

01:08:40   very that's very practical you know I [TS]

01:08:44   had this list that's ten years old or 15 [TS]

01:08:46   years old of all the things that I I [TS]

01:08:48   mean I've been trying to finish that [TS]

01:08:51   record for ten years I've been trying to [TS]

01:08:52   finish that book for [TS]

01:08:53   20 years mmm and there was graduate from [TS]

01:08:57   college was also on that list for 20 [TS]

01:09:01   years yeah I graduate from college I got [TS]

01:09:03   to finish that book I got to finish that [TS]

01:09:05   album and every morning I would wake up [TS]

01:09:07   and there was no I never had a small [TS]

01:09:12   list like get your pants on get some [TS]

01:09:16   make some toast get out of the house you [TS]

01:09:19   know at the end of every day I never had [TS]

01:09:21   a list that I could that I could look at [TS]

01:09:24   and say I checked everything off that [TS]

01:09:25   list good job at the end of every day [TS]

01:09:28   the only list I had was graduate from [TS]

01:09:32   college finished that book finished that [TS]

01:09:35   album and so at the end of every day all [TS]

01:09:39   I ever looked at was a list that seemed [TS]

01:09:41   real simple right it only had three [TS]

01:09:43   items on it and they were all items that [TS]

01:09:47   you know it it wasn't like start writing [TS]

01:09:50   that book it was you up 450 pages [TS]

01:09:53   written just to finish it huh as a [TS]

01:09:55   retired productivity group guru I'll [TS]

01:09:57   tell you those are not easy items no I [TS]

01:09:59   know because I spent 15 years looking at [TS]

01:10:02   that 3 item list and it was a drag to [TS]

01:10:08   never be able to check a single thing [TS]

01:10:11   off of a list and I didn't I didn't [TS]

01:10:13   understand the thought technology of [TS]

01:10:15   like make a stupid list of things and [TS]

01:10:17   check them off and you'll feel good [TS]

01:10:18   about yourself at the end of the day and [TS]

01:10:21   also I've never been able to complete a [TS]

01:10:25   project by making small manageable [TS]

01:10:27   choices like all you need to do today is [TS]

01:10:31   go in and cross all the T's and dot all [TS]

01:10:33   the icer all you need to do today is [TS]

01:10:35   write 500 words or you know I've never [TS]

01:10:37   been good at that well so last year 2016 [TS]

01:10:43   I think 2000 at December of 2015 I got [TS]

01:10:47   that letter in the mail an envelope from [TS]

01:10:50   the University of Washington that shaped [TS]

01:10:52   like a diploma have I told you this no I [TS]

01:11:00   got an I got a diploma shaped manila [TS]

01:11:03   envelope from the University of [TS]

01:11:06   Washington so far so good [TS]

01:11:08   and I looked at it I was like there's [TS]

01:11:11   not that many things this could be and I [TS]

01:11:15   think it is my diploma I think I have [TS]

01:11:20   graduated from the University did it [TS]

01:11:23   take you this long to open it my god I [TS]

01:11:25   would have torn that open well I've [TS]

01:11:27   never opened oh I put it on the I put it [TS]

01:11:32   on the bookshelf and it's still there [TS]

01:11:36   Wow and I look at it maybe not every day [TS]

01:11:41   but it's right there it's like [TS]

01:11:44   Schrodinger's diploma it is that's [TS]

01:11:46   exactly right inside that envelope I [TS]

01:11:49   think is a diploma I think if I went [TS]

01:11:53   online I could probably find out whether [TS]

01:11:55   or not I had graduated but I don't I'm [TS]

01:11:57   not interested in doing that either and [TS]

01:11:59   as far as I know until I open that [TS]

01:12:02   envelope it's not official I don't know [TS]

01:12:08   seems reasonable uh-huh I've never seen [TS]

01:12:11   a diploma I don't even know what it [TS]

01:12:15   would say what I don't even know what it [TS]

01:12:17   like what do they look like even yeah is [TS]

01:12:20   it gonna say like graduated with honors [TS]

01:12:22   is it gonna say like barely eked by is [TS]

01:12:24   it gonna say spent twenty four years in [TS]

01:12:26   college white ribbon the white ribbon [TS]

01:12:32   well I'll speak for the audience why do [TS]

01:12:38   you suppose you haven't opened it [TS]

01:12:42   because you want it you want it to stay [TS]

01:12:44   a cat that could be alive or dead uh I [TS]

01:12:48   don't know I mean it might be that it [TS]

01:12:54   might be that if I open it then I will [TS]

01:12:58   check one of those three things off the [TS]

01:13:02   list I'll scratch one of those three [TS]

01:13:03   things off the list and it will it will [TS]

01:13:07   both make the other two things seem even [TS]

01:13:09   like even starker now there's only two [TS]

01:13:14   things on the list but also you know to [TS]

01:13:18   carry around because it's not like I [TS]

01:13:21   just [TS]

01:13:22   it's not like I waited 15 years to [TS]

01:13:26   graduate from college [TS]

01:13:27   I've waited 30 years to graduate from [TS]

01:13:30   college like I went into Gonzaga [TS]

01:13:34   University as a freshman in September of [TS]

01:13:38   1987 and that's 30 years ago but I was [TS]

01:13:45   thinking about going to college when I [TS]

01:13:46   was 10 [TS]

01:13:48   yeah in 1977 and so to have graduated [TS]

01:13:59   and to have a diploma that's like there [TS]

01:14:01   it is University of Washington it's not [TS]

01:14:03   like you're ever going it's not like you [TS]

01:14:04   have needed it right I'm 49 years old [TS]

01:14:07   and I have never needed it and I feel [TS]

01:14:11   like opening it and looking at it and [TS]

01:14:13   having accomplished it like all those [TS]

01:14:16   times in my life when I when having it [TS]

01:14:18   would have like when my dad was alive if [TS]

01:14:20   I had been able to to show it to him and [TS]

01:14:23   say like I graduated from the University [TS]

01:14:25   of Washington it would have meant [TS]

01:14:26   something to him it would have meant [TS]

01:14:30   something to my uncles but now I just [TS]

01:14:35   I'm afraid of feeling underwhelmed I'm [TS]

01:14:39   afraid of it being like yeah yeah there [TS]

01:14:42   it was you always knew you could is that [TS]

01:14:44   all there is [TS]

01:14:44   yeah is there any chance it could be the [TS]

01:14:48   opposite of a diploma is there any part [TS]

01:14:50   of your mind that worries that it's a [TS]

01:14:51   big piece of paper that says your window [TS]

01:14:53   is closed or do you something tells you [TS]

01:14:55   that it's a diploma apart from the shape [TS]

01:14:56   well yeah because because because that [TS]

01:15:00   fall my the director of the comparative [TS]

01:15:06   history of ideas department John tabes [TS]

01:15:10   who took over in that role after Jim [TS]

01:15:14   Klaus died although John tapes was [TS]

01:15:17   always gym classes advisor gym class is [TS]

01:15:20   that the guy you were gonna go start a [TS]

01:15:21   civilization with that's right yeah [TS]

01:15:23   that's right [TS]

01:15:23   and Jim Klaus died suddenly and John [TS]

01:15:26   tapes who had been his mentor decided [TS]

01:15:28   that rather than let the chit Department [TS]

01:15:30   either dissolve or fall into the hands [TS]

01:15:32   of a young unexperienced or [TS]

01:15:35   inexperienced professor John tabes was [TS]

01:15:37   like okay all right I'll be the shepherd [TS]

01:15:40   and guide Wow he's a pro he was a [TS]

01:15:42   prominent AG alien John tames and and [TS]

01:15:48   that fit in with you know what Jude did [TS]

01:15:51   and John was a friend and a mentor to me [TS]

01:15:54   and he called me and said I'm retiring [TS]

01:16:00   from the University and when I go I'm [TS]

01:16:04   the last living link to anyone who ever [TS]

01:16:08   taught you or like like actually saw you [TS]

01:16:14   as a living person rather than as a [TS]

01:16:16   ghostly shamira that hovers over the [TS]

01:16:19   chid Department like you know like I'm a [TS]

01:16:23   I'm a Griffin right like just some [TS]

01:16:26   winged lion and he said if I retire all [TS]

01:16:32   these little weird addenda that are [TS]

01:16:34   attached to all the pieces of paper in [TS]

01:16:37   your file all the post-it notes that say [TS]

01:16:40   well this looks like that but in [TS]

01:16:42   actuality it's this because he did that [TS]

01:16:45   and then this see somebody promised him [TS]

01:16:49   this and and you know and there's like [TS]

01:16:53   dog tags in there and there's like so a [TS]

01:16:56   lock of somebody's hair you know like my [TS]

01:16:59   do you feel like he was spinning it as [TS]

01:17:01   like nah this is this is the time thing [TS]

01:17:03   you need to do now oh he wasn't spinning [TS]

01:17:05   it he said it directly like let's give [TS]

01:17:07   these don't if you don't graduate now [TS]

01:17:10   it's going to be hard later to find [TS]

01:17:14   anybody who's gonna believe it and you [TS]

01:17:18   just need to like you've had enough [TS]

01:17:19   credits to graduate since 2001 you've [TS]

01:17:22   been putting it off for whatever a [TS]

01:17:24   thousand reasons you know Jim Klaus like [TS]

01:17:28   I went to see him in the hospital and he [TS]

01:17:30   said don't don't not graduate because [TS]

01:17:35   it's not perfect like don't fail to [TS]

01:17:38   graduate because you think that you need [TS]

01:17:41   it all to be perfect [TS]

01:17:44   just do it just hand in your shit and [TS]

01:17:47   get out and I said you know and he's [TS]

01:17:50   like you know he's in the hospital on [TS]

01:17:53   his way and I said Jim I can't you know [TS]

01:17:56   I can't do that I'm telling you I'm [TS]

01:18:00   telling you you understand how parts of [TS]

01:18:02   college work but there are some parts [TS]

01:18:04   you understand there are other parts you [TS]

01:18:05   don't seem to fully grasp yet that the [TS]

01:18:07   idea is to be done with college yeah you [TS]

01:18:09   need to you need to not like these poor [TS]

01:18:13   people crazy [TS]

01:18:14   and let's just say to them it did it did [TS]

01:18:16   it did it drove them crazy they were [TS]

01:18:18   like for all the effort that you've put [TS]

01:18:19   into this you can have four graduate [TS]

01:18:21   degrees why are you still here and I was [TS]

01:18:24   like that's nice you know I just have [TS]

01:18:25   this one other thing I want to do things [TS]

01:18:38   in the hospital like he's he's like this [TS]

01:18:39   is my deathbed command to you all Jesus [TS]

01:18:42   and I said you know I read a lot of [TS]

01:18:44   talking but I think you're not supposed [TS]

01:18:45   to refuse that I think if you get a [TS]

01:18:47   deathbed command for somebody used to [TS]

01:18:48   instruct you I think you're something [TS]

01:18:49   you're expected to follow it well the [TS]

01:18:51   thing is you I think you're if you say [TS]

01:18:53   yes sir and then defy the the promise [TS]

01:18:58   then you yes you know what you're [TS]

01:19:00   probably right but I sat there in the [TS]

01:19:02   chair an argument I never agreed to this [TS]

01:19:04   yeah to graduate from you're gonna stay [TS]

01:19:08   here until it's perfect [TS]

01:19:10   so James James had me come down to the [TS]

01:19:14   college and you know and there's like [TS]

01:19:16   upon the chid department wall there's a [TS]

01:19:18   long winters poster you know it's like i [TS]

01:19:20   am a samara or i am like a race a race [TS]

01:19:28   maybe haunt a grandfather clock or [TS]

01:19:30   something but i went down and i sat [TS]

01:19:41   there and we all laughed and and we had [TS]

01:19:44   we had some fun we had you know we had [TS]

01:19:47   some laughs and and my memory is hazy [TS]

01:19:55   but but i feel very [TS]

01:19:57   certain because there was all this [TS]

01:20:00   there's all this stuff that needed to [TS]

01:20:01   happen right I mean I was like well I've [TS]

01:20:04   wanted I wanted to hand in that I had [TS]

01:20:06   that thing about marks that I was [TS]

01:20:08   working on and I just wanted to like [TS]

01:20:09   make some modifications to it and all [TS]

01:20:11   this stuff you know that I had that I [TS]

01:20:15   needed to do before I would and I think [TS]

01:20:18   in as I was sitting there describing it [TS]

01:20:20   like he put he kept putting papers in [TS]

01:20:23   front of me and he had me sign something [TS]

01:20:29   that I think eventually produced this [TS]

01:20:33   envelope arriving in the mail Oh got a [TS]

01:20:37   little bit gaslighted I got a little bit [TS]

01:20:40   even realize you're graduating that's [TS]

01:20:41   not fair [TS]

01:20:42   well and so and then so I got a Facebook [TS]

01:20:44   message from someone at the University [TS]

01:20:48   one time that said congratulations [TS]

01:20:51   that's someone in the chit Department [TS]

01:20:54   Facebook message and it wasn't even a [TS]

01:20:57   message it was like posted on my page [TS]

01:20:58   and your well yeah and I wrote and I and [TS]

01:21:01   I commented and I was like for what [TS]

01:21:03   and they commented back oh never mom [TS]

01:21:07   you'll see and so that's all that's all [TS]

01:21:12   the evidence I have but when that [TS]

01:21:15   envelope arrived I like it had a kind of [TS]

01:21:19   you know it had a little it had icicles [TS]

01:21:21   on it like it felt like wow what is so I [TS]

01:21:25   knew I knew a not to open it I knew B [TS]

01:21:27   not to throw it away so I so it's it's [TS]

01:21:30   on the bookshelf maybe that's a good [TS]

01:21:36   idea I like that I like that man you [TS]

01:21:38   know me lately in your and your papers [TS]

01:21:40   right you leave behind some instructions [TS]

01:21:42   about what's to be done in the unlikely [TS]

01:21:44   event of your death you're allowed to do [TS]

01:21:48   with the framed envelope right I don't I [TS]

01:21:51   got tell you buddy I like this idea a [TS]

01:21:53   lot fraying the envelope I'm worried [TS]

01:21:55   that framing the envelope is a weird [TS]

01:21:57   affectation like I I worry already that [TS]

01:22:00   not opening it is weird yeah but I feel [TS]

01:22:04   like framing it it but that feels right [TS]

01:22:07   to do but it also feels like [TS]

01:22:10   now you know your hanging stuff on the [TS]

01:22:12   walls in your house that you're hoping [TS]

01:22:13   people ask about that would be weird to [TS]

01:22:15   hang the envelope you should just leave [TS]

01:22:16   your diploma on open [TS]

01:22:18   [Music] [TS]

01:22:20   [Laughter] [TS]