The Accidental Tech Podcast

254: Hot Box With Knobs


02:00:00   down and build it and new let's go all [TS]

02:00:02   in on something along the lines of [TS]

02:00:04   functional reactive programming and [TS]

02:00:05   maybe that's not the actual answer but [TS]

02:00:07   something that dramatic do you think [TS]

02:00:09   that it would be something that big if [TS]

02:00:11   this this hypothetical H I kit or do you [TS]

02:00:14   think it would be something much closer [TS]

02:00:16   to a shim and let me start with Marco on [TS]

02:00:19   this to be all cocoa bindings Oh God I I [TS]

02:00:24   don't honestly like I'm not hugely into [TS]

02:00:26   the whole reactive thing like I kind of [TS]

02:00:28   do my own thing with with that but of [TS]

02:00:31   course but so I I'm not entirely [TS]

02:00:35   convinced that that is the inevitable [TS]

02:00:36   forward sure you know place to go but [TS]

02:00:39   but whatever the answer whatever the [TS]

02:00:41   yeah so the if you if just the larger [TS]

02:00:43   question of like would they [TS]

02:00:44   fundamentally change like design [TS]

02:00:47   patterns of of the way to do UI [TS]

02:00:49   framework exactly it depends on like do [TS]

02:00:52   they want to also like blow up iOS as [TS]

02:00:56   well because if the idea of this is to [TS]

02:00:58   make developing for the Mac more like [TS]

02:01:02   iOS then no they shouldn't move on in [TS]

02:01:06   such a major way because that isn't how [TS]

02:01:08   I OS works but if the goal of this is to [TS]

02:01:11   be like the next generation unified UI [TS]

02:01:14   framework for all of their platforms if [TS]

02:01:18   possibly making it Swift only then sure [TS]

02:01:20   that would make sense like it would it [TS]

02:01:21   would make the most sense to design it [TS]

02:01:25   in a way that takes maximum advantage [TS]

02:01:28   and fits in best with the design of the [TS]

02:01:30   Swift language which has which would [TS]

02:01:33   come with lots of changes that that [TS]

02:01:35   don't work the same way because like so [TS]

02:01:37   much of ab kit and UI kit is based on [TS]

02:01:39   the way objective-c works and is and is [TS]

02:01:42   designed because you know they were it [TS]

02:01:44   was it was always language it was [TS]

02:01:46   designed with that in mind and it was [TS]

02:01:48   designed with a lot of C idioms and [TS]

02:01:49   things that work very well with fictive [TS]

02:01:51   C with Swift there's a lot of weird [TS]

02:01:54   friction when you when you try to you [TS]

02:01:56   know when you when you use UI kit and a [TS]

02:01:58   lot of Apple frameworks from Swift you [TS]

02:02:00   can tell like this really wasn't [TS]

02:02:02   designed for this and it's it's not as [TS]

02:02:04   good as it could be or it doesn't [TS]

02:02:05   doesn't quite fit in right doesn't feel [TS]

02:02:07   right or or is not as graceful as it [TS]

02:02:09   could be so if they're going to move [TS]

02:02:12   forward and make this like the [TS]

02:02:13   new swift only thing that is our our [TS]

02:02:16   modern you know answer it like this is [TS]

02:02:19   gonna be for the next 15 years framework [TS]

02:02:21   then yeah change a lot to make it more [TS]

02:02:23   Swift like I don't not necessarily like [TS]

02:02:25   functional reactive I don't you know [TS]

02:02:26   sure sure [TS]

02:02:27   but just make it more Swift like you [TS]

02:02:29   know make it ideal for Swift but if [TS]

02:02:31   they're going for let's make it as easy [TS]

02:02:33   as possible for existing iOS developers [TS]

02:02:35   to also make mac apps then I then not [TS]

02:02:39   necessarily so you have to I think I [TS]

02:02:42   look at when you talk about UI kit and [TS]

02:02:44   even app get for that matter any [TS]

02:02:46   framework like that that lives for a [TS]

02:02:48   long time evolves and you can see like [TS]

02:02:51   as you look down through the layers of [TS]

02:02:52   like how things have changed like as in [TS]

02:02:56   case point out before before you know [TS]

02:02:59   closures were a thing everything was you [TS]

02:03:01   know straight up delegation and then [TS]

02:03:03   suddenly when closures were a thing even [TS]

02:03:05   setting aside Swift it was like oh now a [TS]

02:03:07   bunch of new api's are coming take a [TS]

02:03:09   call back right and they take a closure [TS]

02:03:11   as an argument and that becomes the [TS]

02:03:12   pattern that you start to see you don't [TS]

02:03:14   see it everywhere you the old api's [TS]

02:03:16   don't have it but they introduced new [TS]

02:03:17   api is they do have it and so you know [TS]

02:03:19   each new year WWC the framework that you [TS]

02:03:23   new slowly changes and evolves whatever [TS]

02:03:27   the next framework is the the most [TS]

02:03:30   conservative answer is take whatever the [TS]

02:03:33   the current best thinking about you I [TS]

02:03:35   kid is not like make it like you I kid [TS]

02:03:37   exactly because there are parts of UI [TS]

02:03:39   kit that have been updated to use the [TS]

02:03:42   current best thinking and you know the [TS]

02:03:43   closure is an example of like and that [TS]

02:03:45   happens to fit was Swift because if it's [TS]

02:03:47   native support for that and you don't [TS]

02:03:48   have to use this stupid block syntax and [TS]

02:03:50   all the other stuff but make all of the [TS]

02:03:53   new api's use the current best thinking [TS]

02:03:56   and I don't think that actually entirely [TS]

02:03:59   precludes a larger change because if you [TS]

02:04:04   keep doing that like over time we [TS]

02:04:05   introduce new API is with new thinking [TS]

02:04:07   and there's a new language in the mix [TS]

02:04:08   and it evolves and evolves and evolves [TS]

02:04:10   eventually you get to deprecated or just [TS]

02:04:12   never use the really old really weird [TS]

02:04:14   api's so if your starting point is the [TS]

02:04:18   current best modern thinking UI kit with [TS]

02:04:21   maybe some minor tweaks you get a lot of [TS]

02:04:23   the benefit of people being who are [TS]

02:04:24   familiar with you I kept being able to [TS]

02:04:25   use that because people are familiar [TS]

02:04:27   with uikit presumably you're somewhat [TS]

02:04:29   up-to-date on and don't say I only know [TS]

02:04:32   how to use the uikit api's introduced in [TS]

02:04:33   like iOS 2 and I never learned anything [TS]

02:04:36   after and I don't know what a closure is [TS]

02:04:37   and I'm really confused right I don't [TS]

02:04:39   know anything about all these properties [TS]

02:04:41   syntax and all those animations stuff [TS]

02:04:43   let's all tint colors I don't know what [TS]

02:04:44   that is of course they have to know they [TS]

02:04:45   have to know the modern ones too so and [TS]

02:04:47   that's your starting point you can bring [TS]

02:04:49   those people along now with the with the [TS]

02:04:51   whole reactor thing it's like that's not [TS]

02:04:52   something you can gradually add that's [TS]

02:04:53   kind of a paradigm shift and that is [TS]

02:04:55   it's a tougher sell but even that you [TS]

02:04:58   could you could pitch that to you know [TS]

02:05:00   pretend the Mac doesn't exist and it's [TS]

02:05:01   just UI kit eventually in the lifetime [TS]

02:05:03   of you I kid if you're thinking inside [TS]

02:05:05   Apple is that there's a better way to [TS]

02:05:06   design you eyes with you know whatever [TS]

02:05:09   reactive paradigm or whatever some [TS]

02:05:11   functional thing or something entirely [TS]

02:05:12   different they could roll that out just [TS]

02:05:14   in UI kit to say a bunch of new api's [TS]

02:05:17   are gonna be using this thing and we [TS]

02:05:18   have a new view system and more you know [TS]

02:05:21   Mac has had multiple view systems even [TS]

02:05:23   on Mac OS 10 it has multiple you know [TS]

02:05:25   head carbon and it had cocoa and they [TS]

02:05:27   coexisted for a while and one of them [TS]

02:05:29   faded away it's not impossible to have [TS]

02:05:30   two paradigms in the same platform and [TS]

02:05:33   slowly transition to another one so I [TS]

02:05:34   don't think anything Apple does [TS]

02:05:35   precludes switching to something better [TS]

02:05:38   but I think the main reason they won't [TS]

02:05:39   is there are two reasons one I'm not I [TS]

02:05:42   don't think Apple is convinced that [TS]

02:05:44   there is a better power this case you [TS]

02:05:47   may be convinced by convinced it like [TS]

02:05:49   there is a better paradigm that is [TS]

02:05:51   better enough to take the hit for it and [TS]

02:05:54   be like they can they can defer that [TS]

02:05:57   they could say use the current best [TS]

02:05:59   thinking and UI kit plus whatever the [TS]

02:06:01   current best thing that we don't know [TS]

02:06:01   about is they're doing inside Apple [TS]

02:06:03   right because there's always something [TS]

02:06:04   every year right and make that the [TS]

02:06:06   starting point of view new framework and [TS]

02:06:08   then go from there and I don't wrap this [TS]

02:06:12   office running along the one one final [TS]

02:06:13   thing I think is worth voicing [TS]

02:06:14   especially from the concerns of Mac [TS]

02:06:16   users I mentioned photos apps and and [TS]

02:06:18   how they feel kind of weird that's [TS]

02:06:20   another way that this can all go wrong [TS]

02:06:21   if they no matter what solution they use [TS]

02:06:23   if it lets experience iOS developers [TS]

02:06:28   target the Mac but the applications they [TS]

02:06:31   create are all like photos essentially [TS]

02:06:34   like that they feel weird and non Mac [TS]

02:06:36   like and are unsatisfying [TS]

02:06:37   I don't think that will be a very big [TS]

02:06:41   success because as few Mac users as [TS]

02:06:44   there mate as there maybe and even Mac [TS]

02:06:46   users who have no idea what it means to [TS]

02:06:48   be quote-unquote Mac type Mac like you [TS]

02:06:51   know people who have no idea what [TS]

02:06:52   electron is or no idea what makes Lac [TS]

02:06:54   weird they feel they feel the the [TS]

02:06:58   friction and the weirdness even if they [TS]

02:07:00   can't identify it even with something [TS]

02:07:01   like chrome versus Safari I think that's [TS]

02:07:03   a real thing that people can feel and I [TS]

02:07:07   and I think the Mac enthusiasts are [TS]

02:07:11   actually an important subset of the Mac [TS]

02:07:13   market at a proportion of their of their [TS]

02:07:15   the money that they give or whatever [TS]

02:07:17   rights the whole reason the Mac Pro [TS]

02:07:18   exists or will exist eventually and I [TS]

02:07:22   think that is a really it's gonna be one [TS]

02:07:26   of the hardest things to avoid yes let [TS]

02:07:28   people retarget their skills to the Mac [TS]

02:07:30   but how how are you gonna get them to [TS]

02:07:32   make applications that are satisfying [TS]

02:07:34   Mac applications that's a really tall [TS]

02:07:37   order both because iOS users don't know [TS]

02:07:39   how to make a satisfying Mac application [TS]

02:07:41   because they never have before [TS]

02:07:42   and because a lot of things you can do [TS]

02:07:44   to make it easier for them leave them [TS]

02:07:46   down the path to an application that is [TS]

02:07:48   like an iOS application that you can use [TS]

02:07:50   a mouse cursor with and that's not good [TS]

02:07:52   that's no good boss [TS]

02:07:54   well but I mean I would argue it's [TS]

02:07:56   better than not having these apps is it [TS]

02:07:57   though like I was saying I don't know if [TS]

02:07:59   it's better than not having the apps it [TS]

02:08:00   like is it better than just letting the [TS]

02:08:01   Mac platform die I would rather have a [TS]

02:08:03   good native 27 inch iPad pro application [TS]

02:08:06   than the bad iOS port to a 27 inch iMac [TS]

02:08:10   yet I mean like just sure well but I you [TS]

02:08:13   know keep in mind like whatever Mac apps [TS]

02:08:15   are in practice is what ends up being [TS]

02:08:19   you know the good Mac apps like it ends [TS]

02:08:22   up being the standard like I really [TS]

02:08:24   don't think we have a choice here I [TS]

02:08:26   think something like this has to happen [TS]

02:08:28   to keep the Mac alive and so if what if [TS]

02:08:30   what ends up being most Mac have people [TS]

02:08:32   use if those are more iOS II that will [TS]

02:08:37   just become what it feels like to be a [TS]

02:08:39   real to be a standard Mac app and that's [TS]

02:08:42   not what it means to be Mac life but I'm [TS]

02:08:45   just talking about like just straight-up [TS]

02:08:46   performance like that they feel laggy [TS]

02:08:48   and slow and not not powerful like they [TS]

02:08:52   don't have the features one part is a [TS]

02:08:54   feature set in a second is [TS]

02:08:55   they're that they're slow and weird and [TS]

02:08:57   is it because they're slow and weird [TS]

02:08:58   because the shim layer and they are the [TS]

02:09:00   missing features that we expect from a [TS]

02:09:02   cap because there are an iOS port and [TS]

02:09:03   those features don't fit or don't make [TS]

02:09:05   sense on iOS that's that's what I'm [TS]

02:09:07   talking about like and and you're [TS]

02:09:08   totally right to be super concerned [TS]

02:09:10   about that by using photos app as the [TS]

02:09:12   example of a cross-platform framework [TS]

02:09:14   but the reason why photos app on the Mac [TS]

02:09:16   is slow and weird and doesn't feel right [TS]

02:09:20   and it lacks so many features and drives [TS]

02:09:22   you nuts [TS]

02:09:22   it's because it is a terribly designed [TS]

02:09:25   app on so many levels and horribly [TS]

02:09:28   neglected all the time so it starts out [TS]

02:09:31   with a bad design they never change it [TS]

02:09:33   they never make it better in your your [TS]

02:09:35   explanation during our famous episode [TS]

02:09:37   number 223 throw the fork away was so [TS]

02:09:40   great so perfect the Photos app is a [TS]

02:09:43   terrible example of how to do [TS]

02:09:45   cross-platform frameworks it happens to [TS]

02:09:47   be built on a cross-platform framework [TS]

02:09:48   but it is a terrible design and that has [TS]

02:09:52   nothing to do with the framework it has [TS]

02:09:53   everything to do with the actual UI [TS]

02:09:55   design the flow of the app the things [TS]

02:09:58   like I do think it has to do with the [TS]

02:10:00   framework and that I know the flow in [TS]

02:10:02   the UI design is inherited in large part [TS]

02:10:04   from how photos works in iOS and then [TS]

02:10:06   they just added a couple little sidebars [TS]

02:10:08   here and there like it feels like an iOS [TS]

02:10:10   application in design wise no definitely [TS]

02:10:12   not [TS]

02:10:13   it is it is entirely because that is a [TS]

02:10:16   very badly designed app that was it's [TS]

02:10:18   designed by people who don't use it the [TS]

02:10:20   way anybody else uses it if at all and [TS]

02:10:22   it is designed to look good in demos not [TS]

02:10:25   to actually be used by human beings that [TS]

02:10:28   is not a problem with the framework [TS]

02:10:29   that's the problem with the just the [TS]

02:10:30   design of it it is slow and cumbersome [TS]

02:10:34   not because it copies iOS stuff but [TS]

02:10:36   because it has too many modes and too [TS]

02:10:38   many slow animations and it lacks [TS]

02:10:40   convenient keyboard shortcuts and like [TS]

02:10:42   but like it has those modes because [TS]

02:10:44   photos on iOS has to have the most [TS]

02:10:46   because you don't have over the room on [TS]

02:10:47   the screen for all that stuff so like [TS]

02:10:48   think about when you go to crop I'm [TS]

02:10:49   photos you got a little crop icon and [TS]

02:10:51   that or you go to like color or light [TS]

02:10:52   then you got all this something using [TS]

02:10:54   you eventually dig your way down to the [TS]

02:10:55   feature you want and it's a lot of taps [TS]

02:10:57   and why is it a lot of taps because [TS]

02:10:58   you're on a phone you don't have room to [TS]

02:10:59   have that stuff visible all the time but [TS]

02:11:01   you take that UI paradigm and you bring [TS]

02:11:03   it to the Mac and it's still a lot of [TS]

02:11:05   tap seeing like why you making this a [TS]

02:11:06   lot of apps like well [TS]

02:11:08   sort of how the codebase works and we [TS]

02:11:10   kind of added a sidebar here and there [TS]

02:11:12   but we didn't want to change too much [TS]

02:11:13   like isn't that the whole thing we don't [TS]

02:11:14   to change too much and we get a Mac [TS]

02:11:16   application out of it and it's like you [TS]

02:11:17   should have changed more that isn't the [TS]

02:11:19   whole thing like first of all the fact [TS]

02:11:21   that they use something called like UX [TS]

02:11:23   collectionview [TS]

02:11:24   doesn't make the design bad the fact [TS]

02:11:26   that their views are using UX color [TS]

02:11:28   instead of NS color and UI color that [TS]

02:11:30   doesn't like the that's what we're [TS]

02:11:32   asking for here is like give us like [TS]

02:11:34   stock widgets and stuff that we can use [TS]

02:11:36   them of the place but but the actual [TS]

02:11:37   interface layout and the choices they [TS]

02:11:40   made with all these different modes and [TS]

02:11:41   everything that's just a bad design off [TS]

02:11:44   for the Mac period and that has nothing [TS]

02:11:46   to do with the framework that is [TS]

02:11:47   entirely to do with laziness and bad [TS]

02:11:49   design but nobody doesn't have to do [TS]

02:11:50   with the framework it has to do it has [TS]

02:11:52   to do with the fact that the code base [TS]

02:11:53   came from an iOS app you started with an [TS]

02:11:55   iOS app and you're like I would like [TS]

02:11:57   this app on the Mac so that's you start [TS]

02:11:58   with that code base and that code base [TS]

02:12:00   works the way it works on the phone and [TS]

02:12:02   so you don't want it completely like [TS]

02:12:03   you're you're motivated not to change [TS]

02:12:05   too much about it right so it's yeah [TS]

02:12:07   it's not the framework it's not the fact [TS]

02:12:08   to use if you had written it from [TS]

02:12:09   scratch with the same framework as a Mac [TS]

02:12:11   app you would be fine but I my fear of [TS]

02:12:14   getting at here is that people have iOS [TS]

02:12:16   applications that they want to [TS]

02:12:17   essentially port to the Mac and they're [TS]

02:12:19   not starting from scratch and figuring [TS]

02:12:21   out how to make a good mac app they're [TS]

02:12:23   starting from their iOS app and mutating [TS]

02:12:25   it until they feel like it's more or [TS]

02:12:28   less a madcap and so the Photos app [TS]

02:12:30   feels like the iOS Photos app mutated [TS]

02:12:33   just enough to masquerade as a Mac [TS]

02:12:35   application and you're totally right [TS]

02:12:37   that's not the fault of the framework [TS]

02:12:38   it's not the fault of you even you [TS]

02:12:40   execute or anything like that it is the [TS]

02:12:41   fault of the fact that they that it is [TS]

02:12:43   essentially a port and that you start [TS]

02:12:45   with one code base and you change it and [TS]

02:12:47   you know you don't start over from [TS]

02:12:49   scratch right and way too long here but [TS]

02:12:52   but one of the things that Craig [TS]

02:12:54   Hockenberry was pointing out about like [TS]

02:12:55   Twitter if ik where icon factory wrote [TS]

02:12:58   their own framework to basically be [TS]

02:13:00   UIKit on the Mac what was called [TS]

02:13:01   chameleon or something yep right so they [TS]

02:13:04   have experience doing that hey let's [TS]

02:13:05   write a framework on the Mac but the API [TS]

02:13:06   has all look like UI kit they did that [TS]

02:13:08   and they also did let's make a mac [TS]

02:13:12   version of an iOS application and we'll [TS]

02:13:14   do it by cleanly and slightly painfully [TS]

02:13:17   because you know programmers aren't [TS]

02:13:18   perfect separating the internals from [TS]

02:13:21   the X [TS]

02:13:22   which all programmers are supposed to be [TS]

02:13:23   doing but until you actually try to [TS]

02:13:24   separate them with a big scissors you [TS]

02:13:26   realize how much your crap has leaked [TS]

02:13:28   into each other like it's life right [TS]

02:13:29   and according to Craig the second [TS]

02:13:32   approach for them anyway work better for [TS]

02:13:35   Twitter if ik where what they reused [TS]

02:13:37   across the iOS and the mac app is all [TS]

02:13:40   the faceless stuff but the UI for the [TS]

02:13:42   mac app is written totally from scratch [TS]

02:13:46   the only part that shared is the inside [TS]

02:13:48   now they wrote it from I don't even know [TS]

02:13:49   what they used they could have written [TS]

02:13:50   it from scratch using you know the [TS]

02:13:52   chameleon thing they could have written [TS]

02:13:53   their scratch using app kit they could [TS]

02:13:54   have written scratch using a [TS]

02:13:55   hypothetical H eye kit but the point is [TS]

02:13:57   they wrote it from scratch they didn't [TS]

02:13:58   take the interface from the phone poured [TS]

02:14:02   it and start tweaking it but that that I [TS]

02:14:05   think will be a temptation it's you know [TS]

02:14:07   sort of the equivalent of shovel where [TS]

02:14:09   that will be a temptation if Apple does [TS]

02:14:10   a good job making that easy and in fact [TS]

02:14:12   how about will done with that look I [TS]

02:14:13   went from your iPhone application and [TS]

02:14:14   then I just move two things around and [TS]

02:14:15   add a sidebar and set up a few menu [TS]

02:14:17   items voila [TS]

02:14:18   Mac app and I'm gonna say no not a not a [TS]

02:14:22   Mac out thanks to our sponsors this week [TS]

02:14:25   Casper Squarespace and hellofresh we'll [TS]

02:14:28   see you next week now the show is over [TS]

02:14:33   they didn't even mean to begin [TS]

02:14:37   it was accidental oh it was accidental [TS]

02:14:42   Johnny research Marco and Casey wouldn't [TS]

02:14:46   let him cuz it was accidentally was [TS]

02:14:50   accidental and you can find the show [TS]

02:14:54   notes at a CAS URL is s so that's Casey [TS]

02:15:07   less and a are Co a RM ante Marco Arment [TS]

02:15:13   SI r AC USA Syracuse [TS]

02:15:30   good thing so much stuff happened in the [TS]

02:15:33   seven days ago yeah exactly so Marco you [TS]

02:15:38   said you had watched the first two [TS]

02:15:40   episodes of the Grand Tour [TS]

02:15:41   I have yeah you know what it's pretty [TS]

02:15:43   good I feel like the in studio segments [TS]

02:15:48   are slightly less garbagey than they [TS]

02:15:53   were last season oh yeah to clarify I [TS]

02:15:55   skip the house pretty bad not like I [TS]

02:15:59   don't skip like the little bumpers to [TS]

02:16:01   their second but like when they like sit [TS]

02:16:03   down with a celebrity or something I [TS]

02:16:04   skip that but I always did that with the [TS]

02:16:06   with the BBC show also yeah the the BBC [TS]

02:16:10   show the in studio segments were pretty [TS]

02:16:14   decent if not good but man the Grand [TS]

02:16:18   Tour in the studio is bad outside of the [TS]

02:16:21   studio I think the films were there [TS]

02:16:23   actually out in the world doing things I [TS]

02:16:25   think those are 80 to 90 percent of what [TS]

02:16:28   they were for Top Gear and I'm trying [TS]

02:16:30   very hard not to spoil anything directly [TS]

02:16:32   for John but my goodness of studio stuff [TS]

02:16:35   is just nothing I feel like all I'm [TS]

02:16:37   doing is cringing the entire time [TS]

02:16:39   they're in the studio oh absolutely no [TS]

02:16:42   question like the studio stuff is still [TS]

02:16:43   is as cringe-worthy as it was in season [TS]

02:16:47   one but season 2 episodes 1 & 2 if you [TS]

02:16:51   skip the studio Long's parts and you [TS]

02:16:53   just pay attention to the rest of it you [TS]

02:16:54   know film segments I'd say it's it's [TS]

02:16:57   very good very fun and you know the last [TS]

02:17:00   few seasons of Top Gear were that they [TS]

02:17:01   were on you know they were there was [TS]

02:17:03   like a bit of a decline in those two and [TS]

02:17:05   I would say the the current season of [TS]

02:17:08   whatever this is Grand Tour is on on par [TS]

02:17:13   with or better than the last few seasons [TS]

02:17:15   the top here they did I think that's [TS]

02:17:17   fair you know one of the Instituto [TS]

02:17:19   segments that I actually kind of liked [TS]

02:17:21   and I think is the strength that they [TS]

02:17:22   should be leaning on in Grand Tour but [TS]

02:17:24   in season 1 apparently they did not I [TS]

02:17:26   always liked the the new segments [TS]

02:17:28   because I guess because it's the most [TS]

02:17:29   like a pod yeah like they would they [TS]

02:17:31   would have a little TV screen up there [TS]

02:17:33   to show an image and they'd be like [TS]

02:17:34   there's quick hits on the news oh you [TS]

02:17:36   know Volkswagens coming out with a new [TS]

02:17:38   car what do you think of this and they [TS]

02:17:39   all just have something snarky to say [TS]

02:17:40   about it in much the same way we do on a [TS]

02:17:42   podcast what do you think of Bonita [TS]

02:17:43   they talk about right and there's no [TS]

02:17:45   celebrity involved and you can't say [TS]

02:17:47   they're not trying to be funny because [TS]

02:17:48   they are they're trying to be funny and [TS]

02:17:49   very often the snarky lines were written [TS]

02:17:51   ahead of time clearly right like it [TS]

02:17:53   wasn't all spontaneous or whatever but [TS]

02:17:54   that lets them be them in a way in the [TS]

02:17:58   same way that they would out of the [TS]

02:17:59   studio just sort of joking around with [TS]

02:18:01   each other about a topic that they all [TS]

02:18:03   have strong feelings about you think all [TS]

02:18:05   Porsche 911s look the same you are into [TS]

02:18:07   trucks you are like whatever like their [TS]

02:18:09   personalities and their enthusiasm for [TS]

02:18:11   cars which you know is my always big [TS]

02:18:12   thing with with top gear comes through [TS]

02:18:14   in those segments and their studio [TS]

02:18:16   segments and they're fine and even some [TS]

02:18:18   of the celebrity ones depending on the [TS]

02:18:19   celebrity passable but anything where [TS]

02:18:21   it's like we're not going to talk about [TS]

02:18:23   car news we're not gonna talk about cars [TS]

02:18:25   we're not gonna talk to a celebrity [TS]

02:18:26   we're gonna do like a funny skit with [TS]

02:18:28   each other did not work in the green [TS]

02:18:31   like just just like because because like [TS]

02:18:34   what's left then then it's just like a [TS]

02:18:36   bunch of people who are like are they [TS]

02:18:38   trying to be Saturday Night Live very [TS]

02:18:39   often they'd be trying to make a joke [TS]

02:18:41   they'd be like huh nah isn't that funny [TS]

02:18:42   and they'd be like making fun of like [TS]

02:18:44   you know children with cancer to be like [TS]

02:18:46   no it's not it's not funny it's like but [TS]

02:18:49   it was it was funny when I was a boy in [TS]

02:18:51   1942 it was like just guys like you [TS]

02:18:55   can't talk to somebody before you do [TS]

02:18:57   these segments like it's not or whatever [TS]

02:18:59   the one but they were making fun of gay [TS]

02:19:01   people are hurting ice cream or [TS]

02:19:02   something ice like just talk to one [TS]

02:19:04   person before you plan a 15-minute [TS]

02:19:07   segment that you think is gonna be [TS]

02:19:08   hilarious but yeah it's it's not and [TS]

02:19:10   it's no good and anyway yeah there's a [TS]

02:19:13   lot more of that it's definitely like [TS]

02:19:15   older dudes who think that some of this [TS]

02:19:19   stuff is funny and it's just not funny [TS]

02:19:20   anymore and the other thing unless on [TS]

02:19:23   the second episode they official maybe [TS]

02:19:26   they talked about in the first but in [TS]

02:19:27   the second episode was the first time [TS]

02:19:28   they really did a hot lap if I recall [TS]

02:19:30   correctly and they have ditched the [TS]

02:19:33   American and they said something like [TS]

02:19:35   yeah well you know it didn't really work [TS]

02:19:36   out and nobody liked it [TS]

02:19:37   and so there was a at least a modicum of [TS]

02:19:40   like self-awareness there but they bring [TS]

02:19:43   on a woman some woman and they say she's [TS]

02:19:47   a really great driver and the reason I [TS]

02:19:49   haven't named this woman is because they [TS]

02:19:51   didn't name her like did you did you [TS]

02:19:54   watch this Marco did you notice that as [TS]

02:19:56   well yeah [TS]

02:19:57   like the new Stig kind of but right that [TS]

02:19:59   was I I assume that was part of some [TS]

02:20:02   kind of bit that's gonna play out over [TS]

02:20:03   time but I thought that was weird too it [TS]

02:20:05   just seemed like I don't know if [TS]

02:20:08   inappropriate is the right word but just [TS]

02:20:10   not funny it seemed like you know [TS]

02:20:13   50-plus year old guys trying to be funny [TS]

02:20:15   in a way that in the year almost 2018 [TS]

02:20:20   really isn't funny anymore [TS]

02:20:22   and I don't think this is me being like [TS]

02:20:24   a stick-in-the-mud I don't think this is [TS]

02:20:26   me being a social justice warrior it's [TS]

02:20:29   just it's I'm trying to be better about [TS]

02:20:31   being aware of these sorts of things and [TS]

02:20:33   and so now that I am more aware of these [TS]

02:20:36   sorts of things when they don't name [TS]

02:20:40   this woman driver like they praised her [TS]

02:20:42   but they don't name her it's just like [TS]

02:20:44   come on guy is really this is really a [TS]

02:20:47   thing and just like you said John like [TS]

02:20:49   nobody told you this was not cool nobody [TS]

02:20:53   not a one not a single person said that [TS]

02:20:55   this was not cool and so i-i've never [TS]

02:20:58   fast forwarded on a and on an initial [TS]

02:21:00   viewing I've never fast forwarded any of [TS]

02:21:02   the top gear of the Grand Tour but well [TS]

02:21:04   you're missing out I am well that's the [TS]

02:21:07   thing I was about to say I am paying [TS]

02:21:09   less and less and less attention to the [TS]

02:21:11   in-studio segments that being said the [TS]

02:21:15   the film's I thought were really good [TS]

02:21:17   particularly this last one and again I'm [TS]

02:21:20   trying not to spoil it but it involves [TS]

02:21:22   Marco and John's either current or old [TS]

02:21:25   stomping grounds that one I thought was [TS]

02:21:28   really good and enjoyable so thus to [TS]

02:21:30   films are great but Godley the studio [TS]

02:21:33   stuff I'm running out of patience for it [TS]

02:21:36   yeah there is no question in my mind [TS]

02:21:38   that if the show was just the films and [TS]

02:21:42   each episode was like you know I guess I [TS]

02:21:43   guess be like 20 minutes long or 25 [TS]

02:21:45   minutes long and instead of like an hour [TS]

02:21:46   if it was just that it would be a better [TS]

02:21:49   show I mean I'm looking forward to the [TS]

02:21:52   to the rest of the episodes from the [TS]

02:21:55   season but I might do the unthinkable in [TS]

02:21:58   Paula Marco and just skip the in studio [TS]

02:22:01   segments because hoo boy I give you [TS]

02:22:03   permission it is a much more enjoyable [TS]

02:22:05   show if you do that [TS]

02:22:14   yeah I swear look some titles here [TS]

02:22:17   we had some good ones this week as I get [TS]

02:22:19   older I guess worse yeah that's pretty [TS]

02:22:21   good [TS]

02:22:21   I like hotbox with knobs hot box with [TS]

02:22:23   Dobson's little boxes does the USB pre [TS]

02:22:26   to get hot no my description is not I've [TS]

02:22:32   never had one of those boxes I just [TS]

02:22:33   assumed they got hot but no hot box hot [TS]

02:22:36   box you guys don't know that movie do [TS]

02:22:37   you nope Casey did your boy watch it [TS]

02:22:40   Marko might like it yeah I mean my vote [TS]

02:22:42   my final vote is either for older worse [TS]

02:22:44   or hot box of knobs mm-hmm I think I'm [TS]

02:22:47   both hot box with knobs definitely is as [TS]

02:22:49   a musical ring to it and seems like an [TS]

02:22:51   ATP title but now now that I learned the [TS]

02:22:54   boxes don't get hot I like it was I mean [TS]

02:22:58   some of them do like the ones too [TS]

02:23:01   speaking if you want stuff get hot oh my [TS]

02:23:04   god yes you you do have some hot boxes [TS]

02:23:09   with knobs all right yeah cuz it's like [TS]

02:23:11   a you know it's a Class A B amp the [TS]

02:23:13   smaller ones like I had one that was a [TS]

02:23:14   Class A my god like even just a [TS]

02:23:17   headphone amp it's Class A gets [TS]

02:23:18   ridiculously hot yeah I don't that [TS]

02:23:21   patate box with knobs over the top [TS]

02:23:23   fantastic mr. Fox watch it watch it with [TS]

02:23:26   the kids it's a good kid movie even [TS]

02:23:28   Declan might like it heard of this and [TS]

02:23:30   then you'll see where I am saying to [TS]

02:23:32   recommend that because in the hot box [TS]

02:23:33   features in the movie isn't that a [TS]

02:23:35   euphemism for like farting in bed yes [TS]

02:23:38   I'm glad you caught up the car that as [TS]

02:23:40   well oh that's not just hotbox it's also [TS]

02:23:44   like when you like smoke pot in the car [TS]

02:23:46   with the windows up what do you call it [TS]

02:23:48   Dutch oven come on chat room [TS]

02:23:50   that's no you're right you're right you [TS]

02:23:53   know we don't need to go to the chat [TS]

02:23:54   room for fart confirmation Casey is [TS]

02:23:56   there with the oh when it comes to farts [TS]

02:23:58   and I know what I'm talking about - [TS]

02:24:05   farts ever stop being funny I don't [TS]

02:24:06   think so it was like humor is rooted in [TS]

02:24:08   just like what makes people like [TS]

02:24:10   uncomfortable like it like in a certain [TS]

02:24:13   way and like farts are you're so against [TS]

02:24:16   the facade that we are not animals we [TS]

02:24:19   are we are civilized people and then [TS]

02:24:22   like this bad smell and gas comes out of [TS]

02:24:24   our butts like that's that's going to be [TS]

02:24:25   funny like fuck it and and like it's so [TS]

02:24:27   taboo [TS]

02:24:28   and think and it makes the whole room [TS]

02:24:30   smell bad for like ten minutes and so [TS]

02:24:32   it's like that's like that's going to be [TS]

02:24:34   if that's always gonna be funny across [TS]

02:24:36   all cultures across all times because we [TS]

02:24:38   try so hard to pretend like we're not [TS]

02:24:40   animals with butts and poop and stuff [TS]

02:24:42   and then this reminds us anyway that's [TS]

02:24:45   my theory on farts good they can think [TS]

02:24:48   we're still alive yeah good you to make [TS]

02:24:50   an app about that I hear they're all the [TS]

02:24:52   rage yeah right [TS]

02:24:52   rage yeah right [TS]

01:00:00   um but yeah there's no there's no [TS]

01:00:03   perfect solution so I you know even if [TS]

01:00:04   even if they change it to do that and I [TS]

01:00:06   heard some good suggestions on Twitter I [TS]

01:00:08   forget who's just maybe was Marco maybe [TS]

01:00:09   was someone else like change the color [TS]

01:00:11   of the battery meter to like purple or I [TS]

01:00:14   don't know they already use red and [TS]

01:00:15   green and yellow but some other colors [TS]

01:00:17   show like it's not just that your [TS]

01:00:19   battery is like lower in the middle but [TS]

01:00:21   we found out that your battery is [TS]

01:00:22   underperforming and to what case you [TS]

01:00:24   said at the beginning of this your [TS]

01:00:26   battery doesn't give up it's just it [TS]

01:00:27   just is not capable of delivering either [TS]

01:00:30   the volts of the amps that are required [TS]

01:00:31   by the CPU and the CPU has met has [TS]

01:00:33   things that cause it you know or not the [TS]

01:00:35   CPB like they're parts of the [TS]

01:00:36   electronics a look if my voltage or [TS]

01:00:39   current or both drop below some [TS]

01:00:40   threshold game over right and that's [TS]

01:00:42   what's happening so the battery is there [TS]

01:00:44   dutifully pumping out as much energy [TS]

01:00:45   that can on the CPU is like now sorry [TS]

01:00:47   it's game over [TS]

01:00:48   can't do it everything goes black um not [TS]

01:00:50   that really matters the details but [TS]

01:00:51   anyway that's that's that's what's [TS]

01:00:53   happening and you know the the if you [TS]

01:00:57   want to get on Apple for doing a thing [TS]

01:01:00   that you know what you know five why [TS]

01:01:03   this down to like what is the root cause [TS]

01:01:05   here you could get to the batteries not [TS]

01:01:07   easily replaceable but you know it's not [TS]

01:01:09   that expensive to replace it you could [TS]

01:01:12   get to the size of the battery you could [TS]

01:01:14   get to how long if you use your phone [TS]

01:01:15   like a regular person how long does your [TS]

01:01:17   battery last like the planned [TS]

01:01:18   obsolescence thing is I feel like [TS]

01:01:20   different than the the perception that [TS]

01:01:23   Apple is doing you know evil thing to [TS]

01:01:25   make you buy a new phone because planned [TS]

01:01:26   obsolescence you could say they make a [TS]

01:01:28   sealed phone with a battery that will be [TS]

01:01:30   crappy after two years and they they [TS]

01:01:32   know that all those numbers they know [TS]

01:01:34   how long it will last they know that [TS]

01:01:35   it's sealed so on and so forth [TS]

01:01:36   isn't that planned obsolescence because [TS]

01:01:38   this phone is released to you and they [TS]

01:01:40   know the plan is that if you use this [TS]

01:01:42   like a regular phone it will be a much [TS]

01:01:45   worse phone in two years and that's [TS]

01:01:47   essentially their plan they couldn't [TS]

01:01:49   make a phone that becomes a much worse [TS]

01:01:51   phone in a week they could make a plan a [TS]

01:01:53   phone that becomes much worse one in [TS]

01:01:54   five years where have they chosen to [TS]

01:01:57   draw that line is wherever they don't [TS]

01:01:58   know if it's two years we're just making [TS]

01:01:59   a number but that is a design choice and [TS]

01:02:01   this brings me to a thing that has been [TS]

01:02:03   buried in our show notes for a while [TS]

01:02:04   that I will now hoist up because it is [TS]

01:02:06   relevant this is a YouTube video from [TS]

01:02:09   cut one of the things I hated most about [TS]

01:02:11   YouTube is how hard [TS]

01:02:12   to find the stupid date from September [TS]

01:02:14   1st 2017 this is a another typical [TS]

01:02:18   sensationally titled thing like all the [TS]

01:02:19   articles today about you know new [TS]

01:02:21   information reveals that Apple is just [TS]

01:02:23   as deceptive as your crazy uncle always [TS]

01:02:25   said no that's not what it confirms at [TS]

01:02:26   all anybody is Apple ruining your max [TS]

01:02:29   performance question mark isn't that [TS]

01:02:31   definitely great a quick baby title [TS]

01:02:33   that's like every Doug DeNiro [TS]

01:02:35   title ever his a yeah yes his his are [TS]

01:02:39   boring because there are two same the [TS]

01:02:41   number one the number one pinned a [TS]

01:02:44   comment on this is Apple ruining your [TS]

01:02:45   max performance spoiler alert yes [TS]

01:02:48   this article is about thermal throttling [TS]

01:02:52   on Macs which actually Marco talked [TS]

01:02:54   about a little bit although he surmised [TS]

01:02:56   it for Thermo based like when you [TS]

01:02:57   plugged in your external monitor at the [TS]

01:02:59   beach house like the how it slowed down [TS]

01:03:01   the clocks on your your MacBook Pro am I [TS]

01:03:03   remembering there right yeah this is [TS]

01:03:04   this is a pretty a pretty significant [TS]

01:03:07   limitation of the 2017 MacBook Pro [TS]

01:03:09   actually and this is not just the this [TS]

01:03:11   house was the NYMEX [TS]

01:03:13   right so this is another case where [TS]

01:03:14   again the sensational headline would [TS]

01:03:17   make you think that Apple is inserting [TS]

01:03:19   code that mean this isn't about making [TS]

01:03:20   you buy a new Mac but apples and certain [TS]

01:03:22   komen says your computer could be faster [TS]

01:03:24   but we're going to do something in [TS]

01:03:27   software to make it not faster and [TS]

01:03:28   withhold the performance from you [TS]

01:03:29   because we're evil Apple and we do this [TS]

01:03:31   for insert reason that doesn't make any [TS]

01:03:32   sense because obviously as Gruber points [TS]

01:03:35   out and as many people point out like [TS]

01:03:36   people think it's an apples interest to [TS]

01:03:38   make you buy I won't buy a new phone but [TS]

01:03:40   it is not an apples interest to make you [TS]

01:03:42   buy a new phone by sabotaging your [TS]

01:03:44   current iPhone because that will just [TS]

01:03:46   make you feel bad about iPhones it'll [TS]

01:03:48   make you want to buy a different phone [TS]

01:03:49   but anyway setting that aside logic [TS]

01:03:50   doesn't factor in like again perception [TS]

01:03:52   doesn't matter that's not the logic it's [TS]

01:03:53   not enter into it the the reason so many [TS]

01:03:57   Mac's thermal throttling if you watch [TS]

01:03:58   this video this is about like gaming [TS]

01:04:01   performance on an iMac or actually a [TS]

01:04:04   MacBook as well maybe it's both I forget [TS]

01:04:06   anyway he puts it in like a freezer and [TS]

01:04:09   runs the benchmark and having out of the [TS]

01:04:11   freezer too so you know all these sort [TS]

01:04:13   of temperature things look I'm I'm not [TS]

01:04:14   I'm not making this up look performance [TS]

01:04:17   is here but then as things we're not [TS]

01:04:18   before and it goes down you can see this [TS]

01:04:19   stair step pattern and the graphs of [TS]

01:04:21   what your frame rate is and then you put [TS]

01:04:23   it in the freezer and you don't see that [TS]

01:04:24   like it's pretty clear that [TS]

01:04:26   things and inside this computer run at [TS]

01:04:27   Marlys full speed until it gets kind of [TS]

01:04:30   hot and sweaty in there and the [TS]

01:04:32   mechanisms inside the computer that are [TS]

01:04:34   there to protect the silicon from you [TS]

01:04:36   know melting itself say whoa whoa whoa [TS]

01:04:38   let's start slowing things down and it [TS]

01:04:39   cranks down the clock speed and this [TS]

01:04:42   doesn't have to do with battery life [TS]

01:04:44   this has to do with like performance and [TS]

01:04:46   I would say that you know again Apple [TS]

01:04:49   it's not doing a malicious thing to make [TS]

01:04:50   your computer bad because they are evil [TS]

01:04:52   you know rubbing their hands together [TS]

01:04:53   villains twirling their moustaches but [TS]

01:04:56   they did design a computer they did [TS]

01:04:58   design a computer in which if you play a [TS]

01:05:00   game on it and you know in a certain [TS]

01:05:03   reasonable ambient temperature for human [TS]

01:05:05   kind of room eventually gets so hot that [TS]

01:05:08   the mechanisms that protect the silicon [TS]

01:05:10   will kick in and it will start [TS]

01:05:11   throttling down an Apple design that [TS]

01:05:13   computer right now is it a manufacturing [TS]

01:05:15   defect did they put it together wrong is [TS]

01:05:18   the thermal paste not working is the [TS]

01:05:20   heat pipe not working right or are they [TS]

01:05:22   all like that or are they all like that [TS]

01:05:24   after a certain number of years and then [TS]

01:05:26   the beginning they're not like that [TS]

01:05:27   whatever the thing is this is a product [TS]

01:05:30   that Apple made and you are not getting [TS]

01:05:31   all the performance you would hope to [TS]

01:05:34   get out of it that you could get out of [TS]

01:05:35   it if it had better cooling and same [TS]

01:05:37   thing with the plugging the external [TS]

01:05:38   monitor whether that is a sort of [TS]

01:05:39   programmatic when the external Morrow's [TS]

01:05:41   plugged in just throttle down [TS]

01:05:42   immediately because we know there's [TS]

01:05:43   gonna be thermal issues or whether it [TS]

01:05:45   just so happens that as soon as you plug [TS]

01:05:46   in the external monitors it immediately [TS]

01:05:47   trips the thermal thing and it drops it [TS]

01:05:49   down either way apples ability to [TS]

01:05:53   extract heat away from the heat [TS]

01:05:55   sensitive components is inadequate to [TS]

01:05:58   allow those components to run at their [TS]

01:06:00   top rated speed all the time and that is [TS]

01:06:02   a design choice by Apple or a design [TS]

01:06:04   flaw from Apple or ever you want to [TS]

01:06:05   phrase it in no case is it malicious but [TS]

01:06:08   it is a real fact of the products and [TS]

01:06:10   you know another reason we're all well [TS]

01:06:12   I'm waiting for a Mac Pro is like you [TS]

01:06:15   you know it's a compromise that you may [TS]

01:06:16   say well that compromise allows it to be [TS]

01:06:18   thinner and lighter especially with [TS]

01:06:19   laptop with an iMac it's harder to [TS]

01:06:21   justify saying yeah yeah it is thin back [TS]

01:06:23   there but does it really need to be but [TS]

01:06:25   we want to be sleek and elegant whatever [TS]

01:06:27   these these are real you know and and [TS]

01:06:30   say this this is like the phone with [TS]

01:06:32   like oh they chose to put a battery in [TS]

01:06:34   there that maybe if it was a bigger [TS]

01:06:36   battery you'd have more Headroom and you [TS]

01:06:38   wouldn't have [TS]

01:06:38   to charge it full as much and you could [TS]

01:06:40   you know have have more buffer on either [TS]

01:06:41   side of it sort of use the middle part [TS]

01:06:43   of the battery like Marco's Tesla does [TS]

01:06:44   or they could buy a batteries from a [TS]

01:06:46   different manufacturer or they could [TS]

01:06:47   even like there are things you can do to [TS]

01:06:49   design the phone to try to avoid this [TS]

01:06:51   situation and that I think is a [TS]

01:06:54   legitimate place of potential difference [TS]

01:06:57   with Apple and arguably they have made [TS]

01:07:00   different moves there because this is [TS]

01:07:01   about a sixth generation with the shut [TS]

01:07:04   down stuff the seven had a bigger better [TS]

01:07:06   battery than the six right and the ten [TS]

01:07:08   seems to have a bigger better battery [TS]

01:07:10   still right so it seems like they are [TS]

01:07:12   making adjustments and learning from [TS]

01:07:14   where they came from but that I feel [TS]

01:07:16   like is you know the communications [TS]

01:07:18   stuff and everything it's I feel for [TS]

01:07:21   Apple but at the same time by being [TS]

01:07:23   secretive and crossing their fingers [TS]

01:07:24   that people wouldn't notice that's on [TS]

01:07:26   them and they you know they get all to [TS]

01:07:28   be a bad PR I do feel bad that the [TS]

01:07:30   perception will not match up with [TS]

01:07:33   reality even more so now because of this [TS]

01:07:36   but I also think that the design choices [TS]

01:07:40   that Apple has made that cause [TS]

01:07:42   performance degradation like their [TS]

01:07:46   compromises I'm not sure they have [TS]

01:07:48   struck the right balance it really [TS]

01:07:50   depends on who you are obviously tech [TS]

01:07:51   nerds they're gonna say that of course [TS]

01:07:53   you've struck the wrong balance because [TS]

01:07:55   I'll give up you know half a pound to [TS]

01:07:57   get an on throttled GPU other people [TS]

01:07:59   might want the half a pound because they [TS]

01:08:01   don't care about throttling and all they [TS]

01:08:02   do is use Microsoft Word all day but [TS]

01:08:05   from my perspective as a tech nerd it [TS]

01:08:07   bothered me to get a product that has to [TS]

01:08:10   be sort of you know baby they're using a [TS]

01:08:12   freezer to get the to get sort of the [TS]

01:08:15   rated performance out of it kind of not [TS]

01:08:18   to crash on Marko's Tesla but kind of [TS]

01:08:20   like the Tesla's where a lot of people [TS]

01:08:22   wrote in when we talked about Tesla's [TS]

01:08:24   and road tests and I felt like it wasn't [TS]

01:08:26   getting its due and how you know it's [TS]

01:08:29   such a great performance car but it's [TS]

01:08:30   never put up against the real ones and a [TS]

01:08:31   lot of people pointed out and I should [TS]

01:08:32   recall this from reading a lighting [TS]

01:08:33   laughs a lot of that is not just because [TS]

01:08:35   it's not grated handling because it's [TS]

01:08:37   really heavy but also because you drive [TS]

01:08:39   a Tesla hard around a racetrack and [TS]

01:08:41   eventually test it was like and yeah not [TS]

01:08:44   so much how about you how about you lay [TS]

01:08:46   off a little bit and it goes into not [TS]

01:08:47   limp mode but it goes into please stop [TS]

01:08:49   hurting me mode because my battery's [TS]

01:08:51   getting [TS]

01:08:51   really hot and I really don't like doing [TS]

01:08:54   you know hot laps as they're called like [TS]

01:08:56   literally hot laps I'm not up for this [TS]

01:08:59   and so it's hard to get a bunch of you [TS]

01:09:02   know good lap times because you do one [TS]

01:09:04   or two fast laps and the Tesla's says no [TS]

01:09:06   more like you know like thermal [TS]

01:09:09   throttling on a Mac and like the battery [TS]

01:09:11   they can't give enough juice it says [TS]

01:09:14   well can we just wait for the battery to [TS]

01:09:15   cool down a little bit maybe and that's [TS]

01:09:16   not something you're looking for in in [TS]

01:09:20   the performance car so fast in a [TS]

01:09:22   straight line [TS]

01:09:24   not so fast around curves and you drive [TS]

01:09:26   it fast for a long time and it really [TS]

01:09:28   really doesn't like that and says with [TS]

01:09:31   it's electronics you will not be doing [TS]

01:09:33   that anymore for a while I'm sorry [TS]

01:09:35   physics you know my bad so anyway to [TS]

01:09:39   wrap this up somehow I've managed to [TS]

01:09:42   turn this story about Apple software [TS]

01:09:47   protecting its hardware into a story [TS]

01:09:49   about how I really wanted the Mac Pro to [TS]

01:09:52   not be thermal throttled and Apple [TS]

01:09:53   should make us computers faster-- course [TS]

01:09:55   right [TS]

01:09:56   but but yeah like I said um if you take [TS]

01:09:58   one thing away from this take away the [TS]

01:10:01   sad the sad realization the the the idea [TS]

01:10:04   the knowledge that none of this [TS]

01:10:07   information actually confirms the things [TS]

01:10:09   people used to think about Apple but [TS]

01:10:11   everyone will believe it does and that's [TS]

01:10:14   a bummer for Apple and they're partially [TS]

01:10:15   to bring with bad PR handling but you [TS]

01:10:18   should continue not to believe that [TS]

01:10:20   Apple purposely slows down computers [TS]

01:10:21   because a that would be a dumb thing to [TS]

01:10:22   do and B they don't do it to make you [TS]

01:10:26   buy a new phone also please never put [TS]

01:10:29   your computing devices in the freezer [TS]

01:10:30   condensation exists this is a problem [TS]

01:10:32   put them in mineral oil come on yeah you [TS]

01:10:36   might even know about this because you [TS]

01:10:37   were you're always a Mac person case you [TS]

01:10:39   might remember do you ever back back [TS]

01:10:40   then like one of the early hey days of [TS]

01:10:43   overclocking and like the very late 90s [TS]

01:10:45   early 2000s overclocked yo started using [TS]

01:10:47   I don't know Hayes Browns Peltier [TS]

01:10:49   Peltier plates know about this so so one [TS]

01:10:55   of the ways that you know water cooling [TS]

01:10:56   was not extreme enough if you wanted to [TS]

01:10:58   push like a seller on up to two [TS]

01:10:59   gigahertz or whatever so people started [TS]

01:11:01   using these Peltier devices which are [TS]

01:11:03   these these like [TS]

01:11:05   thermoelectric things that they're like [TS]

01:11:07   they're like they're solid-state no [TS]

01:11:08   moving parts and you apply a ton of [TS]

01:11:10   power to them and one side gets super [TS]

01:11:13   cold and one side gets super hot [TS]

01:11:15   and I think this I think integrals use [TS]

01:11:17   these I'm not sure they're anyway [TS]

01:11:19   however you Browns those things [TS]

01:11:22   overclockers decided that this this was [TS]

01:11:24   a good way to to get even colder cooling [TS]

01:11:27   of their of their CPUs they could push [TS]

01:11:28   them even further and it's especially [TS]

01:11:31   egregious because all the power that it [TS]

01:11:34   draws which is a lot to perform this [TS]

01:11:37   cooling the hot side gets all the heat [TS]

01:11:40   of the processor plus that wattage that [TS]

01:11:41   it's using so like the cold side gets a [TS]

01:11:44   little cold the hot side gets really hot [TS]

01:11:47   and it was the mcdlt of cooling solution [TS]

01:11:51   the hot side hot cold side cold [TS]

01:11:52   I missed the mcdlt [TS]

01:11:55   yeah anyway and so one of the problems [TS]

01:11:58   one of the reasons one of the many [TS]

01:11:59   reasons why people I don't think really [TS]

01:12:01   used those for more than about six [TS]

01:12:03   months is because once you introduce the [TS]

01:12:07   the possibility for a for something in [TS]

01:12:09   your computer case to get below ambient [TS]

01:12:11   temperature you start having problems [TS]

01:12:13   with condensation and possibly frost and [TS]

01:12:16   this is a really big problem instead of [TS]

01:12:18   a computer collect Ronix do not like [TS]

01:12:20   water like if you like and of course [TS]

01:12:22   they decided okay now we can back off [TS]

01:12:24   frost and condensation and now we can [TS]

01:12:26   just go to pumping water through our [TS]

01:12:28   case that's much better well I mean like [TS]

01:12:30   you said it's of all about ambient [TS]

01:12:32   temperature because if you start making [TS]

01:12:33   the surrounding air cooler and it can no [TS]

01:12:35   longer hold the water that is that it [TS]

01:12:37   condenses out of the air that's a [TS]

01:12:39   problem but if everything is at air [TS]

01:12:40   temperature or higher you're still it's [TS]

01:12:42   still way lower than the temperature of [TS]

01:12:44   the little hot piece of silicon in there [TS]

01:12:45   so you're fine with condensation you [TS]

01:12:47   just gotta make sure you have no leaks [TS]

01:12:49   so is that it on the deliberately [TS]

01:12:52   planned obsolescence that may or may not [TS]

01:12:55   really be a thing it's not you're doing [TS]

01:12:57   it again not may or may not really be a [TS]

01:12:59   thing he's not really hitting I'm lady [TS]

01:13:01   this is the problem like no matter how [TS]

01:13:02   much people talk about but like yeah but [TS]

01:13:04   this does kind of confirm what everyone [TS]

01:13:05   said doesn't it no no it doesn't because [TS]

01:13:07   what they were saying they were saying [TS]

01:13:09   was not that they're slowing down the [TS]

01:13:10   computer but for a reason and this I [TS]

01:13:12   know this is the nuance and I totally [TS]

01:13:14   agree that no one is gonna get this but [TS]

01:13:15   the ADP listeners well no an hour [TS]

01:13:17   I would caution you ATP listeners do not [TS]

01:13:19   attempt to explain this to other people [TS]

01:13:20   like Christmas dinner because it will [TS]

01:13:22   not go over well just nod your head and [TS]

01:13:24   say you were right all right don't even [TS]

01:13:26   confirm that they're right just go have [TS]

01:13:28   a different conversation [TS]

01:13:30   no guess yeah guess what you're not [TS]

01:13:32   gonna be the one bringing it up like all [TS]

01:13:34   of our listeners who are known probably [TS]

01:13:36   as like the computer people and their [TS]

01:13:37   family all their other relatives are [TS]

01:13:40   gonna ask them about it you won't have [TS]

01:13:41   to bring it up people will ask you yeah [TS]

01:13:44   then you can tell them the truth I [TS]

01:13:45   suppose but like it's a nuance that [TS]

01:13:47   people don't care about because people [TS]

01:13:48   really really want to be right about [TS]

01:13:49   that conspiracy and they can get a [TS]

01:13:51   psychology of this like why you know [TS]

01:13:53   everyone wants to seem like they are [TS]

01:13:56   savvy like that the world's not pulling [TS]

01:13:58   one over me that this is how they get [TS]

01:14:00   you like the world attempts to pull one [TS]

01:14:03   over but I'm no dummy I know what the [TS]

01:14:05   truth is so Apple people think Apple is [TS]

01:14:08   great but I know the truth about Apple [TS]

01:14:10   the truth about Apple is they [TS]

01:14:11   intentionally make your phone slower to [TS]

01:14:12   make you buy a new one and I'm on you [TS]

01:14:14   know they're they're not fooling me [TS]

01:14:15   right and it's important to them to feel [TS]

01:14:20   like they are that the world is not [TS]

01:14:21   fooling them is often people who are [TS]

01:14:24   mostly being fooled by almost everything [TS]

01:14:26   in the world and so they you know the [TS]

01:14:28   it's important that they're that they [TS]

01:14:29   show that that's not the case so they no [TS]

01:14:32   matter how much like you can't you will [TS]

01:14:34   never convince these people that it's [TS]

01:14:35   not the case like there is no like [TS]

01:14:36   literally you will never convince them [TS]

01:14:38   like if they if they could personally [TS]

01:14:40   speak to and live with for a year every [TS]

01:14:42   employee living in dead of Apple and be [TS]

01:14:44   truly convinced that they were never [TS]

01:14:45   doing this they would do that in their [TS]

01:14:47   infant life span come back and say yeah [TS]

01:14:49   but I kind of think they're really doing [TS]

01:14:50   it well it really doesn't help that that [TS]

01:14:52   Apple just basically proved the first [TS]

01:14:55   two-thirds of their theory correct yeah [TS]

01:14:57   no that's the best thing like the [TS]

01:14:58   important but there is no to throw 2/3 [TS]

01:15:00   of the theory bit like the conclusion [TS]

01:15:02   like that gets like this is what they're [TS]

01:15:03   doing like they're doing it to make you [TS]

01:15:05   buy a new phone because the other part [TS]

01:15:07   of is not something to get work about [TS]

01:15:08   they're doing it to make sure the [TS]

01:15:09   hardware does it make sure my phone [TS]

01:15:11   doesn't turn off well that doesn't sound [TS]

01:15:12   like it something I should get that mad [TS]

01:15:13   about it because they they don't they [TS]

01:15:14   don't care about the nuances like PR [TS]

01:15:16   communication and so on and so forth [TS]

01:15:17   right maybe if you want to convince them [TS]

01:15:19   maybe you could say what you should [TS]

01:15:20   really be mad about is the fact that [TS]

01:15:21   Apple didn't say this earlier and then [TS]

01:15:24   they can get mad about that and maybe [TS]

01:15:25   they'll feel like they still like are [TS]

01:15:27   righteously angry and they can be [TS]

01:15:28   righteously angry about that that's fine [TS]

01:15:29   but some people will never give [TS]

01:15:31   the notion of malice that like like like [TS]

01:15:34   Volkswagen engineers secretly cheating [TS]

01:15:38   the emissions test because that's the [TS]

01:15:39   worst thing about this this Gruber [TS]

01:15:40   points out in his article he used uber [TS]

01:15:42   as an example because he doesn't know [TS]

01:15:43   about the automotive world but VW is [TS]

01:15:45   probably a more apt example large [TS]

01:15:48   corporations do legitimately do actual [TS]

01:15:51   actively maliciously evil cheesy things [TS]

01:15:53   like this you know not by accident not [TS]

01:15:56   to protect the engine but like detect [TS]

01:15:58   when you're being emission tested and [TS]

01:16:00   pretend like you have less emissions [TS]

01:16:01   than you do but then really when you get [TS]

01:16:03   use as a car put out way more our [TS]

01:16:04   emissions Volkswagen did that and that's [TS]

01:16:07   not good for that company so it's not a [TS]

01:16:09   stretch to believe the corporation would [TS]

01:16:11   do that but you know the the reason I [TS]

01:16:13   mean I guess we had to say look the [TS]

01:16:14   reason we all believe Apple wouldn't do [TS]

01:16:17   this is mostly because it doesn't make [TS]

01:16:20   sense I mean it's partially because we [TS]

01:16:22   know people at Apple and we trust Apple [TS]

01:16:23   and believe it and maybe we're suckers [TS]

01:16:25   in blah blah blah but also because [TS]

01:16:26   unlike cheating on emissions test which [TS]

01:16:28   has a big upside for VW if they can pull [TS]

01:16:31   it off successfully pulling off [TS]

01:16:34   intentionally making your phones worse [TS]

01:16:35   to make people buy new ones like it [TS]

01:16:37   wouldn't make people buy new ones as [TS]

01:16:39   Gruber has pointed out many many times [TS]

01:16:40   it would make people buy an Android [TS]

01:16:41   phone like if they knew like if their [TS]

01:16:43   phones just get worse and if this has [TS]

01:16:45   happened by the way with the shutdown [TS]

01:16:46   stuff I've seen stuff like I bought in [TS]

01:16:48   the last iPhone but then just kept [TS]

01:16:49   turning off forget it and I next time [TS]

01:16:51   I'm getting an Android phone it's way [TS]

01:16:52   cheaper anyway right that's what [TS]

01:16:53   actually happens if you intentionally or [TS]

01:16:56   not intentionally if the phone you have [TS]

01:16:58   starts getting worse you know like like [TS]

01:17:00   Casey with this BMW if your engine keeps [TS]

01:17:02   blowing up you're thinking maybe my [TS]

01:17:03   caramel next time won't be a BMW [TS]

01:17:05   okay he's not like that clever BMW [TS]

01:17:07   tricking me into buying another BMW by [TS]

01:17:09   making my engine blow up intentionally [TS]

01:17:11   that's not how the world works but [TS]

01:17:13   people do really want to feel like that [TS]

01:17:15   you know they understand how they get [TS]

01:17:17   you and the world's not pulling one over [TS]

01:17:18   on them so well because in this case the [TS]

01:17:20   world did pull one over on them and like [TS]

01:17:22   it this one's only the only fix to this [TS]

01:17:25   I mean it's gonna be a long-term [TS]

01:17:26   reputation problem and this you know the [TS]

01:17:28   having Mouse attributed to it is going [TS]

01:17:30   to be a very long-term problem but the [TS]

01:17:33   only way to start fixing this is to [TS]

01:17:36   communicate about it from the phone a PR [TS]

01:17:38   statement is not enough because most [TS]

01:17:40   people when I read PR statements and if [TS]

01:17:42   they do they won't believe them the [TS]

01:17:43   phone has to tell the [TS]

01:17:45   when this throttling happens and tell [TS]

01:17:47   them why it's happening and how much do [TS]

01:17:50   you think that will help I agree that it [TS]

01:17:52   will help but how much Oh massively [TS]

01:17:54   because that that totally changes the [TS]

01:17:57   the view of it not for everybody not [TS]

01:17:59   going to convince everybody but they [TS]

01:18:01   will it'll at least appear that they're [TS]

01:18:04   not trying to hide this fact from you [TS]

01:18:06   you know because the narrative is that [TS]

01:18:08   they are they are secretly like trickily [TS]

01:18:11   like slowing down your phone if they [TS]

01:18:14   tell you your phone can't run at full [TS]

01:18:17   speed because the battery is is too worn [TS]

01:18:19   out that's a very different look and [TS]

01:18:22   again that's gonna piss people off too [TS]

01:18:24   but not as many it's a way fewer [TS]

01:18:28   percentage I was like if 100 percent is [TS]

01:18:30   everyone suddenly has good feelings and [TS]

01:18:32   0% is this doesn't make anybody feel [TS]

01:18:34   better what percentage would you say [TS]

01:18:36   that this helps bring me half to 2/3 I'd [TS]

01:18:38   say I mean a lot we're on the same page [TS]

01:18:40   because I think it's half as well my [TS]

01:18:41   guess would be about half like a half of [TS]

01:18:43   the people will be will see that dialog [TS]

01:18:45   and will be like yeah it's a bummer but [TS]

01:18:47   I understand what's going on and the [TS]

01:18:49   other half of the people like I said [TS]

01:18:50   will say this dialog box proves the app [TS]

01:18:52   was trying to get me a new phone by [TS]

01:18:54   lying to me with this dialog box so it [TS]

01:18:56   is way better than what they did this [TS]

01:18:58   time but I am pessimistic that this will [TS]

01:19:02   you know and if you think about it the [TS]

01:19:04   like I don't know the the the not saying [TS]

01:19:07   anything strategy pretend the not saying [TS]

01:19:08   anything strategy had had been ongoing [TS]

01:19:10   and you know this this whole information [TS]

01:19:14   had not come out right they just [TS]

01:19:16   continue to but they're not saying [TS]

01:19:16   anything thing Apple could have [TS]

01:19:18   theoretically weathered that storm and [TS]

01:19:20   just put better batteries in their phone [TS]

01:19:22   and eventually the six is all cycle out [TS]

01:19:23   and then you know they sort of [TS]

01:19:25   quote-unquote win so the you know this [TS]

01:19:29   strategy they chose to do is riskier [TS]

01:19:31   right because something like what what [TS]

01:19:33   just happened could happen but the [TS]

01:19:35   potential upside I think is better than [TS]

01:19:37   the 50% solution where half the people [TS]

01:19:39   think now the dialog box is proof [TS]

01:19:41   positive that Apple is trying to trick [TS]

01:19:43   you into buying a new phone by making [TS]

01:19:44   your phone slower because that dialog [TS]

01:19:45   box is total BS my battery's fine I know [TS]

01:19:47   it's fine it's telling me I need a new [TS]

01:19:48   phone it's just you know anyway when to [TS]

01:19:51   be clear they said like they said in [TS]

01:19:52   statement that right now it applies to [TS]

01:19:54   iPhone 6 and 6s but it's going to but [TS]

01:19:56   the 7 is going to be added soon and [TS]

01:19:58   future devices will be [TS]

01:19:59   as time goes on like they said that so [TS]

01:20:01   it isn't a problem inherent to the six [TS]

01:20:02   and success like this this problem isn't [TS]

01:20:04   gonna go away right but I think the [TS]

01:20:06   battery is better in the seven like I [TS]

01:20:07   think like they put a bigger battery in [TS]

01:20:09   and that supposedly will make it you [TS]

01:20:11   know so that doesn't get go under [TS]

01:20:13   current as you know so maybe the last to [TS]

01:20:15   have two years two and a half years or [TS]

01:20:16   whatever like I think they're because I [TS]

01:20:18   think the root problem is sort of the [TS]

01:20:20   design lifetime of the phone right it's [TS]

01:20:22   not like you know they have to pick a [TS]

01:20:23   design lifetime like you have to like I [TS]

01:20:25   said they could pick any number they [TS]

01:20:26   wanted it as their target right I think [TS]

01:20:28   they've been moving their target up [TS]

01:20:29   which will help them with this problem [TS]

01:20:30   there is no no phone like mega design [TS]

01:20:32   where this problem will never come up [TS]

01:20:33   unless they have totally different [TS]

01:20:34   battery technology so they have to pick [TS]

01:20:36   a time and no matter what they need to [TS]

01:20:39   have this messaging so if someone [TS]

01:20:40   happens to keep their phone they make a [TS]

01:20:42   phone the last five years somewhat if [TS]

01:20:45   someone keeps it for six years you still [TS]

01:20:46   need this all this mechanism in there [TS]

01:20:48   for when it goes bad it's just a [TS]

01:20:50   question of what that number is and I [TS]

01:20:52   think the number is farther out on the [TS]

01:20:55   sevens intense we'll see we'll see when [TS]

01:20:56   they when they had the software feature [TS]

01:20:57   I mean you'll find out basically it's [TS]

01:20:59   like do people have sevens now that are [TS]

01:21:01   like switching off like KC six used to [TS]

01:21:02   or all the sevens too young at this [TS]

01:21:05   point I don't know I I haven't heard it [TS]

01:21:07   I mean I have a seven so I'll be [TS]

01:21:08   watching for it but it's an inherent [TS]

01:21:12   problem with the battery technology and [TS]

01:21:14   the problem with having a steal battery [TS]

01:21:15   and all that stuff and so communication [TS]

01:21:19   will help with that but I think apple [TS]

01:21:23   also dreads the idea of people seeing [TS]

01:21:25   that dialog box because some people some [TS]

01:21:28   percentage of people will see that [TS]

01:21:30   dialog box and have a concrete thing to [TS]

01:21:35   point to to say that Apple is malicious [TS]

01:21:38   and evil like they look at this dialog [TS]

01:21:39   box apples coming right out and telling [TS]

01:21:41   me you should buy a new phone because [TS]

01:21:43   we're you know we're artificially making [TS]

01:21:45   your phone slow to make you buy a new [TS]

01:21:46   phone like that's how they'll read that [TS]

01:21:48   dialogue boxing that's a bummer we our [TS]

01:21:52   sponsor this week by Squarespace start [TS]

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01:22:02   what kind of website you're making today [TS]

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01:22:16   Squarespace and look if you're listening [TS]

01:22:18   to the show [TS]

01:22:19   I know you're probably like me a little [TS]

01:22:21   bit at least you're probably a little [TS]

01:22:22   bit of a nerd and you probably know how [TS]

01:22:24   to make your own websites there's [TS]

01:22:25   probably other ways you can do this [TS]

01:22:27   trust me [TS]

01:22:28   try squarespace first whether it's a [TS]

01:22:30   site for yourself or if somebody else [TS]

01:22:32   asked you to make a website for them try [TS]

01:22:35   squarespace because you can get really [TS]

01:22:38   far in an hour or two you can probably [TS]

01:22:40   even be finished or at least be close to [TS]

01:22:42   finish in an hour or two and you can do [TS]

01:22:44   all that during the free trial you they [TS]

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01:22:46   card you can just start the free trial [TS]

01:22:49   at squarespace.com and just see how far [TS]

01:22:51   you get and it's gonna be so great I bet [TS]

01:22:54   you're gonna keep it you're gonna stick [TS]

01:22:55   with it it is so easy to use no matter [TS]

01:22:57   what your skill level is beginner to [TS]

01:22:58   advanced your sites look professionally [TS]

01:23:00   designed they scale up to any screen [TS]

01:23:02   size on any device and they have so much [TS]

01:23:04   built-in functionality and you don't [TS]

01:23:06   have to worry about things like [TS]

01:23:07   installing security updates or hat [TS]

01:23:10   keeping the site up if it's getting a [TS]

01:23:11   lot of links in they take care of all [TS]

01:23:13   that for you if you need any help they [TS]

01:23:15   have amazing support available and if [TS]

01:23:17   you're making a site for somebody else [TS]

01:23:18   and they need help they ask Squarespace [TS]

01:23:20   instead of you check it out today if [TS]

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01:23:28   you will make sure to use the offer code [TS]

01:23:29   ATP to get 10% off your first purchase [TS]

01:23:31   make your next move with Squarespace [TS]

01:23:34   [Music] [TS]

01:23:38   Apple is taking a page from the windows [TS]

01:23:41   playbook just today and by today I mean [TS]

01:23:48   exactly 7 days ago Apple or I should say [TS]

01:23:52   that that Bloomberg released a post as [TS]

01:23:55   Mark Kerman saying Apple plans combined [TS]

01:23:58   iPhone iPad and Mac apps to create one [TS]

01:24:00   user experience speaking of a Microsoft [TS]

01:24:03   tagline one user experience and speaking [TS]

01:24:05   of a headline that does not accurately [TS]

01:24:06   represent the ideas and contained in the [TS]

01:24:08   article I'm shocked yeah no way so this [TS]

01:24:13   is a again a post by gurmann and and the [TS]

01:24:16   summary seems to be that there will be a [TS]

01:24:20   change probably next year if he's right [TS]

01:24:23   that what we currently think of as a [TS]

01:24:25   universal app [TS]

01:24:26   or maybe there'll be a new term for it [TS]

01:24:28   but but there will be a mechanism by [TS]

01:24:30   which the same app can be run on iOS and [TS]

01:24:35   Mac OS and so in the same way that we [TS]

01:24:39   have Universal apps on the iOS App Store [TS]

01:24:41   which can be run on iPhone and iPad in [TS]

01:24:44   the future their own I guess Apple watch [TS]

01:24:47   although that's not really part of being [TS]

01:24:49   universal but anyway but it's three [TS]

01:24:50   different platforms in the future there [TS]

01:24:52   there may or perhaps will be a mechanism [TS]

01:24:55   by which we will have the same app [TS]

01:24:59   running on iPhone on iPad potentially an [TS]

01:25:03   Apple watch and on Mac OS and nobody [TS]

01:25:07   really knows what the engineering [TS]

01:25:10   mechanism is behind this [TS]

01:25:12   but that supposedly is the future if you [TS]

01:25:15   believe mark Garmin so I think it's [TS]

01:25:18   worth pontificating about what the [TS]

01:25:22   different paths are to this end but [TS]

01:25:25   before we go down that road [TS]

01:25:27   are there any immediate thoughts on this [TS]

01:25:29   starting with John I think the important [TS]

01:25:32   thing the important part of this story [TS]

01:25:34   to think about and this is the rumor so [TS]

01:25:36   we don't know bla bla bla they did a lot [TS]

01:25:37   of equivocating in this but it might [TS]

01:25:40   come next year but they might cancel it [TS]

01:25:41   but it might not great ok um so the [TS]

01:25:44   motivation behind this is something that [TS]

01:25:45   we've talked about in this show a lot [TS]

01:25:47   specifically when Marco has been like [TS]

01:25:49   making Mac applications and stuff and [TS]

01:25:51   and poorly yeah the historical side with [TS]

01:25:53   that here here's what I think why why I [TS]

01:25:57   believe that projects like this are you [TS]

01:26:01   know conceivably going on inside Apple [TS]

01:26:02   and may actually ship Apple has an [TS]

01:26:07   important asset that they brag about in [TS]

01:26:10   you know it's all the time but that I [TS]

01:26:13   think people tend not to think about [TS]

01:26:14   that much which is you know when they [TS]

01:26:17   put that slide says we have X number of [TS]

01:26:20   thousands or millions of developers they [TS]

01:26:22   brag about number apps but number of [TS]

01:26:23   apps is a proxy for a number of [TS]

01:26:24   developers whose developers are writing [TS]

01:26:26   those apps Apple used to have a certain [TS]

01:26:29   amount of people who were Mac developers [TS]

01:26:31   but now they have way way more people [TS]

01:26:33   who are iOS developers there are a lot [TS]

01:26:35   of iOS developers that is a tremendous [TS]

01:26:38   asset for Apple it's huge number [TS]

01:26:40   people who know how to write [TS]

01:26:42   applications for iOS and do it to make [TS]

01:26:45   money it's a virtuous cycle like it's [TS]

01:26:47   you know the whole marketplace it's [TS]

01:26:49   great for Apple makes money when they [TS]

01:26:50   make money but really the important [TS]

01:26:52   asset is a bunch of people out there [TS]

01:26:53   know how to write iOS apps fewer people [TS]

01:26:56   out there know how to write Mac apps [TS]

01:26:58   fewer every year because the maca maca [TS]

01:27:01   developers get older and most people who [TS]

01:27:03   are learning to write absolutely to [TS]

01:27:04   write them on iOS one way Apple could [TS]

01:27:07   deal with this is say we're just gonna [TS]

01:27:09   sunset the Mac whatever the Mac was the [TS]

01:27:10   past iOS is the future all these [TS]

01:27:12   developers know how to develop for iOS [TS]

01:27:13   we'll just let all the Mac developers [TS]

01:27:15   retire and golf into the sunset and [TS]

01:27:17   we'll can the Mac line and blah blah [TS]

01:27:19   blah you know and everything we've seen [TS]

01:27:23   about VR has said no we're not doing [TS]

01:27:25   that the Mac is important blah blah blah [TS]

01:27:27   and yeah it's important bit until it's [TS]

01:27:28   not but so far the messaging is pretty [TS]

01:27:29   clear thumbs up on the Mac in fact we're [TS]

01:27:33   rededicating ourselves to the Mac the [TS]

01:27:35   Mac is an important product the Mac and [TS]

01:27:37   iOS fill different roles we're never [TS]

01:27:39   gonna force the Mac to be like iOS of [TS]

01:27:41   course I was to be like the Mac all [TS]

01:27:43   those things that they said but they do [TS]

01:27:45   have the problem of a small number of [TS]

01:27:48   Mac developers a small number of Mac [TS]

01:27:50   apps and smaller all the time like tons [TS]

01:27:54   of applications are available on iOS and [TS]

01:27:57   TV OS but not on the Mac in the old days [TS]

01:28:01   of just the PC world of course they'd be [TS]

01:28:02   available on the Mac if they were [TS]

01:28:04   available in any app platform now many [TS]

01:28:06   things are available in out black or [TS]

01:28:07   it's not available on the Mac and one of [TS]

01:28:09   the big reasons is you have at least [TS]

01:28:11   evelle person over iOS apps but they [TS]

01:28:13   don't know how to write Mac apps and [TS]

01:28:14   writing Mac apps is different enough [TS]

01:28:16   that it is non-trivial to do that so [TS]

01:28:19   they're assuming Apple wants to keep the [TS]

01:28:21   Mac around which they keep saying they [TS]

01:28:23   do one way to solve that problem is to [TS]

01:28:25   find a way to let the huge number of [TS]

01:28:28   people who know how to write iOS apps [TS]

01:28:31   reuse some or all those skills to target [TS]

01:28:34   the Mac and that I think is what any [TS]

01:28:39   project like this would be about it [TS]

01:28:41   would be about leveraging that asset to [TS]

01:28:46   you know bring up their other platform [TS]

01:28:49   and yes the unification is important too [TS]

01:28:51   like trying to unify but you know the [TS]

01:28:53   reason I said this headline was [TS]

01:28:54   misleading his visit says to create one [TS]

01:28:57   user experience but then you read the [TS]

01:28:58   article on it's like the application [TS]

01:29:00   sometimes we'll use touch but then [TS]

01:29:01   sometimes we'll use a mouse and a [TS]

01:29:02   pointer it's like that's naughty that's [TS]

01:29:03   what not one user experience that's two [TS]

01:29:05   user experiences and it should be [TS]

01:29:06   because the mouse cursor is different [TS]

01:29:08   than touch and you can't use you know [TS]

01:29:09   different things working different you [TS]

01:29:10   know anyway this is all about letting [TS]

01:29:14   leveraging the those skills and I am I [TS]

01:29:16   think I think Mark already talked about [TS]

01:29:18   this someone of his podcast that he's [TS]

01:29:19   all recorded in the in the past future I [TS]

01:29:21   don't know how time works anymore the [TS]

01:29:23   Days of Future past seven days ago we [TS]

01:29:25   discussed under the radar yeah but I [TS]

01:29:29   think you'll hear a lot about iOS [TS]

01:29:30   developer saying I'd yeah if I could use [TS]

01:29:34   my skills to either make a mac app or to [TS]

01:29:36   bring the app that I already have and I [TS]

01:29:37   on iPhone and iPad to the Mac maybe that [TS]

01:29:41   would make sense at the very least I [TS]

01:29:42   would entertain it like I wouldn't rule [TS]

01:29:43   it out like I have to see if it makes [TS]

01:29:45   sense in terms of economics and so on [TS]

01:29:47   and so forth there are some potential [TS]

01:29:48   upside potential downsides but a lot of [TS]

01:29:51   time you know like it it's when you [TS]

01:29:54   remove the barrier and say you can use [TS]

01:29:55   your skills that you have for iOS and [TS]

01:29:57   you know you know how to use UI kid and [TS]

01:29:59   make table views and do all this stuff [TS]

01:30:00   and there's some about new stuff you [TS]

01:30:01   might learn but you can reuse your code [TS]

01:30:03   and you can reuse your skills and to you [TS]

01:30:05   know to varying a sense they would be [TS]

01:30:07   open to that idea because it is [TS]

01:30:09   potential new way to make money and yes [TS]

01:30:10   it's a smaller platform but in theory we [TS]

01:30:13   know this is true but in theory you [TS]

01:30:14   might be able to charge even higher [TS]

01:30:16   prices than you do on the iPad so that's [TS]

01:30:19   the lens through which I'm viewing all [TS]

01:30:20   these rumors and getting it what Casey [TS]

01:30:22   was talking about yeah but how but how [TS]

01:30:23   would they do that [TS]

01:30:24   there are many ways that they could do [TS]

01:30:26   it that would be bad for Mac users in [TS]

01:30:28   bed for developers like they can blow it [TS]

01:30:29   but if I want to put up like what are [TS]

01:30:32   the goals of this project the goals are [TS]

01:30:34   leverage one of Apple's greatest assets [TS]

01:30:37   tons of developers who know how to do [TS]

01:30:38   well for iOS alright so before we talk [TS]

01:30:40   how Marco any other thoughts the Devils [TS]

01:30:44   in the details but conceptually I love [TS]

01:30:47   this idea [TS]

01:30:48   it is not gonna be an easy thing to do [TS]

01:30:51   you know if this is this is really a [TS]

01:30:54   thing they're working on it's that's not [TS]

01:30:56   easy because the two platforms are very [TS]

01:31:00   very different from each other and I [TS]

01:31:01   don't just mean like on at an API level [TS]

01:31:04   I'm talking about just like the an [TS]

01:31:05   interaction and use [TS]

01:31:07   fullness level and the needs of a Mac [TS]

01:31:09   app you know versus iOS like in many [TS]

01:31:12   ways developing an iOS is way easier [TS]

01:31:14   because there's a lot of things that you [TS]

01:31:16   don't have to worry about that on the [TS]

01:31:18   Mac you have to accommodate or think [TS]

01:31:20   about or support just because people [TS]

01:31:23   expect different kind of interactions on [TS]

01:31:25   the Mac like you know just simple things [TS]

01:31:26   like you know you have the entire menu [TS]

01:31:28   system you also have things like [TS]

01:31:30   drag-and-drop and different types of [TS]

01:31:33   like you know data providing services [TS]

01:31:35   that you have all sorts of different you [TS]

01:31:38   have windowing multiple windows multiple [TS]

01:31:41   documents being open the the entire [TS]

01:31:43   document system behind that you have [TS]

01:31:45   things like undo which you don't have [TS]

01:31:48   all sorts of of rich behaviors that have [TS]

01:31:53   been built over time many of us quite a [TS]

01:31:55   long time ago that people expect all [TS]

01:31:57   like you know quote computer apps to be [TS]

01:31:59   able to do now [TS]

01:32:01   things like script ability even like [TS]

01:32:03   they're so they're so so much that Mac [TS]

01:32:06   apps do that iOS developers don't ever [TS]

01:32:08   have to worry about or don't have to [TS]

01:32:09   even think about making something that [TS]

01:32:12   can do that rich power of the Mac with [TS]

01:32:16   iOS like code or iOS like UI frameworks [TS]

01:32:20   that's not a small job and there's lots [TS]

01:32:24   of ways to do that very badly and so a [TS]

01:32:27   lot of Mac people are wary if this [TS]

01:32:30   announcement or they were seven days ago [TS]

01:32:32   at least where they're worried like you [TS]

01:32:35   know we don't want like the equivalent [TS]

01:32:37   of an iOS app running in a simulator [TS]

01:32:40   window just you know and here we are [TS]

01:32:42   like dragging our mouse over it to [TS]

01:32:44   simulate touch swipes and everything [TS]

01:32:46   like nobody wants that and if that's [TS]

01:32:48   what this ends up being that that would [TS]

01:32:49   be a huge failure on a number of levels [TS]

01:32:51   and a tragedy honestly but I have a [TS]

01:32:55   feeling apples better than that like I [TS]

01:32:56   don't think they would do that I think [TS]

01:32:58   if they're gonna do this at all they're [TS]

01:32:59   hopefully they're gonna do a really good [TS]

01:33:01   job of it and that's again it's not easy [TS]

01:33:05   and it wouldn't surprise me if they get [TS]

01:33:08   if they go down this road if they've [TS]

01:33:10   been going on this run for a while and [TS]

01:33:11   then they eventually decide you know [TS]

01:33:12   what this actually isn't good enough we [TS]

01:33:14   shouldn't do this anymore like that [TS]

01:33:15   wouldn't surprise me at all [TS]

01:33:16   I feel like even if they did and maybe [TS]

01:33:18   they've done that three times already [TS]

01:33:19   they were [TS]

01:33:20   take another run at it because I feel [TS]

01:33:21   like the only two possible options are [TS]

01:33:23   sunset the Mac or find a way to leverage [TS]

01:33:26   the eventually you know in in a not huge [TS]

01:33:32   number of years would you say on an [TS]

01:33:34   infinite time no non infinite on a [TS]

01:33:37   finite and fairly short time scale that [TS]

01:33:39   means gets the desk on the number of [TS]

01:33:41   people who know how to make a good Mac [TS]

01:33:43   app is not going out it's just not right [TS]

01:33:46   this and the number of people who know [TS]

01:33:48   how to make a good iOS app is going up [TS]

01:33:50   in a tremendous number of this you have [TS]

01:33:51   to find a way to either you know don't [TS]

01:33:53   have people do off of the Mac anymore or [TS]

01:33:55   repurpose repoint your your big asset of [TS]

01:33:58   the fleet of developers at the Mac [TS]

01:34:00   because that's the only way you're going [TS]

01:34:01   to get an ongoing supply of good Mac [TS]

01:34:03   apps right and so I think you know there [TS]

01:34:07   like you said there are just so many [TS]

01:34:08   ways to do this wrong right and if they [TS]

01:34:11   tried a bunch of approaches and they [TS]

01:34:12   suck I think they would say okay but [TS]

01:34:14   let's try again with a different [TS]

01:34:15   approach eventually you assume the one [TS]

01:34:17   they come out with is one of them as an [TS]

01:34:19   approach that they feel kind of okay [TS]

01:34:20   with but you know they could blow it and [TS]

01:34:22   try again [TS]

01:34:23   anyway the for the approaches I think [TS]

01:34:25   there's a few obvious ones a couple the [TS]

01:34:27   obvious ones it's not clear to me [TS]

01:34:29   whether these are approaches that [TS]

01:34:30   they've decided suck and they don't want [TS]

01:34:32   to pursue but it very least these are [TS]

01:34:34   approaches they have code for are things [TS]

01:34:35   like UX kit which is like what when a [TS]

01:34:38   lot of applications start appearing on [TS]

01:34:40   the Mac and people said they looked and [TS]

01:34:41   smelled kind of like iOS applications a [TS]

01:34:43   lot of them used either actual UX kit or [TS]

01:34:45   similar approaches where it is like a UI [TS]

01:34:48   kit sort of facade that just calls app [TS]

01:34:51   get stuff under the covers to let you [TS]

01:34:53   repurpose code that you originally wrote [TS]

01:34:54   for iOS devices to make an application [TS]

01:34:56   core Mac application the kind of looks [TS]

01:34:59   and behaves a little bit like an iOS [TS]

01:35:01   application photos for the Mac is a [TS]

01:35:03   great example this you know arguably [TS]

01:35:05   like contacts or even something like the [TS]

01:35:07   new Notes applications a lot example [TS]

01:35:09   tabs that you look at them what maps [TS]

01:35:11   yeah a lot of apps out there they kind [TS]

01:35:14   of I mean there's a family resemblance [TS]

01:35:16   but also like behavior wise you can kind [TS]

01:35:18   of tell that they're not just using [TS]

01:35:19   straight app kit because a lot of the [TS]

01:35:21   stuff that you basically get for free [TS]

01:35:22   with app kit doesn't exist in these [TS]

01:35:24   applications like different behaviors [TS]

01:35:26   different you know behaviors in terms of [TS]

01:35:28   focus and keyboard shortcuts and stuff [TS]

01:35:30   like that that are just different for [TS]

01:35:32   reasons that don't make sense [TS]

01:35:33   until you realize that they probably [TS]

01:35:35   just reused a lot of UI code so aux get [TS]

01:35:38   like approach is one possible way to do [TS]

01:35:39   that and like I said it's not clear to [TS]

01:35:41   me whether they did that and decided [TS]

01:35:43   actually that's not great so we're not [TS]

01:35:44   taking that approach or they did that [TS]

01:35:46   over many years with any applications [TS]

01:35:47   decided actually this approach works [TS]

01:35:49   pretty well this is what we're gonna go [TS]

01:35:50   with so that approach would be [TS]

01:35:52   essentially a new framework that's not [TS]

01:35:55   apt-get but not UI kit but it looks very [TS]

01:35:57   much like UI kit and lets people reuse [TS]

01:36:00   some of their code from UI kit maybe [TS]

01:36:03   with small tweaks but a lot of their [TS]

01:36:05   skills I like to kind of know a table of [TS]

01:36:06   use work I know how buttons work I know [TS]

01:36:08   how you know animations and transitions [TS]

01:36:10   work right and there's tons of new stuff [TS]

01:36:12   you have to learn to with menus and so [TS]

01:36:13   on and so forth but that's one approach [TS]

01:36:16   a second approach is make a new toolkit [TS]

01:36:20   and unfortunately Apple has really used [TS]

01:36:22   up all the a lot of the good names it's [TS]

01:36:25   a kit for making apps we can't call it [TS]

01:36:26   app kid it's a UI q I'll not forget [TS]

01:36:28   about that one it's an H I tool button [TS]

01:36:30   oh never mind like they really use H I [TS]

01:36:33   kid is one of the ones I've heard like [TS]

01:36:34   you can combine kit with anyway come up [TS]

01:36:37   with a new framework that looks almost [TS]

01:36:39   exactly like UI Kipp is it presently the [TS]

01:36:41   rocket represents the best thinking the [TS]

01:36:43   company has about how to make a UI but [TS]

01:36:45   with changes to fundamental things about [TS]

01:36:48   it that allow it to handle all the [TS]

01:36:51   things the Mac does menus cursors you [TS]

01:36:54   know scroll bars blah blah and also all [TS]

01:36:56   the things you eye kid does so that's [TS]

01:36:58   the that's the kind of the actual sort [TS]

01:37:00   of grand unified like there's one [TS]

01:37:02   framework to write applications for [TS]

01:37:05   everything and that would mean that it's [TS]

01:37:07   not a shim on top of app kit that [TS]

01:37:10   presumably they would implement whatever [TS]

01:37:13   behaviors they implemented would define [TS]

01:37:14   going forward what it means to be Mac [TS]

01:37:16   like right as opposed to now where app [TS]

01:37:19   kit defines what it means to be a Mac [TS]

01:37:21   like more or less an Afghan itself was [TS]

01:37:23   influenced by being smushed together [TS]

01:37:25   with carbon and a chai toolkit and all [TS]

01:37:27   that other stuff that's why that but [TS]

01:37:29   what defines our app a definition of Mac [TS]

01:37:31   like and that definition change from [TS]

01:37:32   classic Mac OS as well so it's not like [TS]

01:37:34   the definition of Mac like can't change [TS]

01:37:36   but yeah an entirely new framework to do [TS]

01:37:39   it and that new framework would also be [TS]

01:37:40   the same new framework that people use [TS]

01:37:41   for iOS so when you wrote your iOS [TS]

01:37:43   application you would also you this is [TS]

01:37:44   like the one new [TS]

01:37:46   framework that can do everything the [TS]

01:37:49   risks and that are hey why you messin up [TS]

01:37:51   all these these iOS developers days well [TS]

01:37:53   I learned all this UI kit stuff and now [TS]

01:37:55   I have to learn this new thing yeah it [TS]

01:37:56   looks like not like you are capable why [TS]

01:37:58   do I want to use that if it's just like [TS]

01:37:59   you like it but suddenly different with [TS]

01:38:00   a bunch of mad crap that I don't care [TS]

01:38:01   about why would I learn that so that's [TS]

01:38:05   that is more difficult to pull off and [TS]

01:38:07   risky but potentially the reward is [TS]

01:38:08   finally Apple has one way to write [TS]

01:38:10   applications for all its platforms and [TS]

01:38:12   you know they have a unified API but in [TS]

01:38:16   all these solutions and I think the real [TS]

01:38:17   place where this any of these solutions [TS]

01:38:20   are gonna be really hard to come up with [TS]

01:38:21   something that ends up being you know a [TS]

01:38:25   win for all involved is you know as this [TS]

01:38:29   headline you know incorrectly states [TS]

01:38:32   it's not one user experience for [TS]

01:38:33   everybody Apple still seems dedicated to [TS]

01:38:36   the idea that a mouse pointer and cursor [TS]

01:38:38   and like you know the Mac user interface [TS]

01:38:40   will continue to be a thing and [TS]

01:38:43   applications that work like that are [TS]

01:38:45   different than applications that work [TS]

01:38:47   when you're touching them with your [TS]

01:38:48   finger and fundamental important ways [TS]

01:38:50   and there's really no way to say this [TS]

01:38:52   one magic application just naturally [TS]

01:38:54   works everywhere I made a tweet earlier [TS]

01:38:55   today was write thrice run anywhere [TS]

01:38:58   which is a joke on the old java thing of [TS]

01:39:00   write once run anywhere write thrice [TS]

01:39:02   means even if it is a unified toolkit [TS]

01:39:05   and it's the same thing everywhere you [TS]

01:39:06   use Xcode use one framework and you [TS]

01:39:08   write an application that runs on all [TS]

01:39:09   these platforms you still have [TS]

01:39:11   essentially two quote unquote right at [TS]

01:39:13   thrice which means you have to write the [TS]

01:39:15   Mac version and do all the stuff with [TS]

01:39:17   the menus and the keyboard shortcuts and [TS]

01:39:18   the drag-and-drop and everything that [TS]

01:39:19   the Mac has to do and you know right you [TS]

01:39:21   have to write the iPhone version which [TS]

01:39:23   is a known quantity and you have to [TS]

01:39:25   write the iPad version it's like well [TS]

01:39:27   why do you have to write the iPad [TS]

01:39:28   version that's not another version ask [TS]

01:39:29   somebody with an iOS app if the iPad [TS]

01:39:31   version comes are free because they use [TS]

01:39:32   UIKit it does not come for free you have [TS]

01:39:35   to not write it thrice like it three [TS]

01:39:37   times the application but just because [TS]

01:39:40   the screen gets bigger you have to say [TS]

01:39:41   let me three think how my application [TS]

01:39:43   works right I have to add new elements [TS]

01:39:45   to it I have to potentially add new [TS]

01:39:47   features you know like it's not enough [TS]

01:39:49   to just be in a phone app that is [TS]

01:39:51   stretched to be a little bit wider so [TS]

01:39:53   there's no way of avoiding having to [TS]

01:39:57   write a good application for every [TS]

01:39:58   platform yeah [TS]

01:39:59   the platform's continue to be different [TS]

01:40:01   in both form factor and in the case of [TS]

01:40:03   the Mac you know interface paradigm like [TS]

01:40:08   that's very different and an environment [TS]

01:40:10   yeah any no no framework no UI framework [TS]

01:40:13   will ever eliminate that work all it can [TS]

01:40:16   do is say the only work you have to do [TS]

01:40:19   is that work to make a good a good [TS]

01:40:21   application of Marxism a good app but [TS]

01:40:22   you won't have to relearn how like [TS]

01:40:24   colors work right you don't have to [TS]

01:40:26   relearn how like to play audio like you [TS]

01:40:30   know just that that they'll unify the [TS]

01:40:33   underlying things and have one unified [TS]

01:40:35   framework and one unified language and [TS]

01:40:37   IDE and one unified binary but you still [TS]

01:40:40   have to design essentially three [TS]

01:40:41   different applications of three very [TS]

01:40:42   different forms and by the way the watch [TS]

01:40:44   which you know they could unify that as [TS]

01:40:46   well and not have watchkit and have that [TS]

01:40:47   would be a variant of this thing if they [TS]

01:40:48   want to go whole hog but there's no [TS]

01:40:50   there's no avoiding that it's not one [TS]

01:40:53   user experience it's one I guess [TS]

01:40:55   framework one language you know and [TS]

01:40:58   maybe not even that if they end up going [TS]

01:40:59   with the Shem approach so I believe they [TS]

01:41:03   have to do this but boy there's a lot of [TS]

01:41:06   ways it could mess up and so I I wish [TS]

01:41:09   them luck so if if they go whole new [TS]

01:41:12   framework so they make a chai kit or [TS]

01:41:15   whatever you want to call it I mean come [TS]

01:41:16   on it's Swift there's nowhere just be [TS]

01:41:18   called kit well in it's funny it's funny [TS]

01:41:21   you say that because my question was [TS]

01:41:23   going to be do they abandon Objective C [TS]

01:41:26   I don't see why that would be either [TS]

01:41:30   productive or necessary but Marco do you [TS]

01:41:33   think they would abandon Objective C and [TS]

01:41:34   this hypothetical a chai kit I mean if [TS]

01:41:37   it's scheduled if it's intended to you [TS]

01:41:41   know be in development now and come out [TS]

01:41:42   in in like a year or two maybe but as [TS]

01:41:47   time goes on on a finite time scale you [TS]

01:41:51   know in a few like the longer it is from [TS]

01:41:54   now I think the more likely that that [TS]

01:41:55   would be the approach but yeah I mean [TS]

01:41:58   I'm not even gonna say it's unlikely [TS]

01:41:59   even now I would say that that would be [TS]

01:42:04   reasonable like I don't think that would [TS]

01:42:06   be overly aggressive to make kit require [TS]

01:42:10   Swift like to be a swift only framework [TS]

01:42:13   that's different than saying Objective C [TS]

01:42:15   is gone because like even if they went [TS]

01:42:17   full Swift you have to keep the [TS]

01:42:18   objective-c runtime around for a really [TS]

01:42:20   really long time because it's how Swift [TS]

01:42:22   calls in to all the other code right so [TS]

01:42:24   it you know so like but that's not were [TS]

01:42:26   talk we're just I'm like would you have [TS]

01:42:27   to write it in Objective C right the one [TS]

01:42:29   thing I think they probably will do is [TS]

01:42:31   no 32-bit ever four well yeah this thing [TS]

01:42:34   is the Mac itself as it exists is gonna [TS]

01:42:37   lose 32-bit probably next year right so [TS]

01:42:39   that's that's a gimme it's possible that [TS]

01:42:43   depending on the timelines if they [TS]

01:42:45   switch the Mac to arm this could be arm [TS]

01:42:47   only depending on you know is this one [TS]

01:42:49   year five year or whatever you know that [TS]

01:42:52   that timeline could coincide to simplify [TS]

01:42:54   matters these are all low-level things [TS]

01:42:55   they're really in the end don't matter [TS]

01:42:57   like I think we're into it because you [TS]

01:42:59   know either software developers or into [TS]

01:43:01   software development things and we're [TS]

01:43:02   interested in the nitty-gritty details [TS]

01:43:03   but the bottom line like the most [TS]

01:43:06   interesting from the consumers [TS]

01:43:07   perspective is Apple's plan to continue [TS]

01:43:11   to sell devices of different sizes in [TS]

01:43:14   different forms utility so you know [TS]

01:43:16   things that we call max things that we [TS]

01:43:18   call iPhones things that we call iPads [TS]

01:43:20   things that we call watchers all which [TS]

01:43:21   have different ways to interact with [TS]

01:43:24   them some are closer to each other than [TS]

01:43:26   other iPads are very similar to an [TS]

01:43:28   iPhone but a watch is very different [TS]

01:43:29   from both of them and the Mac is very [TS]

01:43:31   different from the iOS devices but [TS]

01:43:33   there's a range of hardware devices they [TS]

01:43:34   sell and partly and presumably will [TS]

01:43:37   continue to sell because they're not [TS]

01:43:39   giving up on that range like they're not [TS]

01:43:40   you know they can make new hybrids like [TS]

01:43:42   Jason and I talked to an upgrade about [TS]

01:43:44   an iOS laptop like there's other form [TS]

01:43:47   factors that can be explored and the [TS]

01:43:49   other one is obviously touch coming to [TS]

01:43:50   the Mac and how that might influence [TS]

01:43:51   things but we case you mentioned [TS]

01:43:54   Microsoft is a beginning of this topic I [TS]

01:43:57   think that's an important lesson because [TS]

01:43:59   Microsoft for all its success or failure [TS]

01:44:02   in actually pulling this off was way [TS]

01:44:04   ahead on the thinking of we're gonna try [TS]

01:44:06   to make one software platform that lets [TS]

01:44:09   you write applications for all sorts of [TS]

01:44:11   different weird form factors and so they [TS]

01:44:14   have laptops that are convertible into [TS]

01:44:15   tablets but have touch screens on them [TS]

01:44:17   but they also have tablets in at one [TS]

01:44:18   time they had phones and they tried to [TS]

01:44:20   run the whole range with a single [TS]

01:44:23   unified platform that you'd have to [TS]

01:44:24   write you know different style [TS]

01:44:26   application [TS]

01:44:27   for I forget what was their thing was [TS]

01:44:28   like wnp or something like that they had [TS]

01:44:30   an acronym for UMP I believe [TS]

01:44:32   yeah unified Windows platform or [TS]

01:44:34   something yeah that that approach if [TS]

01:44:39   Apple could snap its fingers and have [TS]

01:44:41   something like that now they would love [TS]

01:44:43   to have it because the hard work is [TS]

01:44:45   coming up with a free single framework [TS]

01:44:46   that could span all those things but as [TS]

01:44:49   far as consumers concerned the [TS]

01:44:50   interesting part is so can I buy a thing [TS]

01:44:53   from Apple where it like runs Mac you [TS]

01:44:56   know it runs Adobe Photoshop like the [TS]

01:44:58   legacy version but also I can get all [TS]

01:45:00   the new apps but also I can touch a [TS]

01:45:01   screen but also it looks like a laptop [TS]

01:45:03   like the the unified apple platform is a [TS]

01:45:08   time to make different decisions about [TS]

01:45:10   the boundaries between these things like [TS]

01:45:13   you can get rid of the Mac iOS whatever [TS]

01:45:14   distinction and try to have these [TS]

01:45:15   Universal apps and we're all set [TS]

01:45:17   exciting economics for now that's a [TS]

01:45:18   whole the can of worms but like I think [TS]

01:45:20   it is an opportunity to revisit how [TS]

01:45:22   those boundaries are drawn because if [TS]

01:45:25   you're making a new framework or you [TS]

01:45:27   know a new shim type framework or [TS]

01:45:29   whatever it is that you're doing that's [TS]

01:45:31   an opportunity to consider how could the [TS]

01:45:33   Mac be different in ways that allow you [TS]

01:45:35   to make touch a useful interface for [TS]

01:45:38   Macs and if you've used the windows [TS]

01:45:40   convertible or laptop with a touchscreen [TS]

01:45:42   or whatever you have some experience [TS]

01:45:44   with this a Microsoft is way ahead in [TS]

01:45:46   both figuring out what makes sense for [TS]

01:45:49   touching the screens of PCs for lack of [TS]

01:45:53   a better term and also making the [TS]

01:45:55   frameworks that allow you to do it [TS]

01:45:57   Apple's lucky that they just haven't [TS]

01:45:58   been particularly successful in the [TS]

01:45:59   market with their approach but like that [TS]

01:46:02   you learn you learn by doing and [TS]

01:46:03   Microsoft has done many different [TS]

01:46:06   attempts at this and from all accounts [TS]

01:46:08   each time they try their new surface [TS]

01:46:12   whatever thing and the new operating [TS]

01:46:13   system that runs on it makes a an ever [TS]

01:46:16   more compelling case for being open to [TS]

01:46:19   different form factors and different [TS]

01:46:21   kinds of input instead of the sort of [TS]

01:46:24   rather rigid boundary certainly between [TS]

01:46:26   the Mac and iOS but arguably also [TS]

01:46:28   between like you know the iOS devices of [TS]

01:46:31   different sizes so I'm I'm most excited [TS]

01:46:33   from a consumer perspective of seeing [TS]

01:46:35   Apple like that's what I want out of a [TS]

01:46:37   unified thing is not like yeah the [TS]

01:46:38   unified technical underpinnings would be [TS]

01:46:39   awesome but like [TS]

01:46:40   that finally it gives the Apple the [TS]

01:46:44   freedom to spread it to to make new [TS]

01:46:47   variations along the spectrum instead of [TS]

01:46:50   being siloed into this is what a max [TS]

01:46:51   like and this is what a phone is like [TS]

01:46:53   and they're so different for each other [TS]

01:46:54   and there's no crossover and don't try [TS]

01:46:56   to do it no iOS laptops no touchscreen [TS]

01:46:58   max never never never if it's a unified [TS]

01:47:00   platform there's no reason for that [TS]

01:47:02   distinction anymore and now they could [TS]

01:47:03   start exploring different steps along [TS]

01:47:05   the spectrum yeah I actually look [TS]

01:47:07   forward to that because I do think it's [TS]

01:47:10   pretty clear like the industry and and [TS]

01:47:12   consumers have spoken on the issue of [TS]

01:47:15   like touch laptops and as much as Apple [TS]

01:47:18   says this isn't a good experience nobody [TS]

01:47:21   wants this it turns out a lot of people [TS]

01:47:22   want it and they do it anyway and they [TS]

01:47:24   try it and they touch their screens [TS]

01:47:25   nothing happens and they get like this [TS]

01:47:27   is like Apple is losing that fight in [TS]

01:47:30   the in actuality whether they know it or [TS]

01:47:32   not and I think they probably do know it [TS]

01:47:34   at this point you know they tried they [TS]

01:47:36   tried like one last-ditch effort with [TS]

01:47:38   touch bar and giant trackpads but that's [TS]

01:47:41   not enough that's not what people [TS]

01:47:42   actually want what people actually want [TS]

01:47:43   is to have to touch the screen sometimes [TS]

01:47:45   or to be able to suck screen sometimes [TS]

01:47:46   like that's what people are actually [TS]

01:47:48   doing and wanting and expecting so [TS]

01:47:51   anything that gets us closer to that I [TS]

01:47:54   think is a good direction for the Mac to [TS]

01:47:56   take because again the reality is like [TS]

01:47:58   this is what people are doing and a lot [TS]

01:48:01   is I think the whole idea of this of [TS]

01:48:04   like this cross-platform UI framework [TS]

01:48:06   needing to exist I think you know you [TS]

01:48:08   put it well John that like regardless of [TS]

01:48:11   what you think people should do here you [TS]

01:48:15   know a lot of maxvill person people [TS]

01:48:17   should just write Mac apps and app kit [TS]

01:48:18   and yeah that they should but they're [TS]

01:48:20   not the reality is very different the [TS]

01:48:23   reality is that all the action is [TS]

01:48:27   happening on iOS in in the Apple world [TS]

01:48:29   they can't get people to care enough [TS]

01:48:32   about the Mac to develop a lot of Mac [TS]

01:48:34   apps anymore the Mac feels increasingly [TS]

01:48:36   like a very stale low priority platform [TS]

01:48:41   for a lot of developers including Apple [TS]

01:48:44   they have to do something to make it [TS]

01:48:47   easier for people to bring max mac apps [TS]

01:48:49   over and if they don't we're gonna keep [TS]

01:48:51   we're gonna have the situation we have [TS]

01:48:53   now on the Mac that's going to slow [TS]

01:48:54   worsen which is right now we already [TS]

01:48:57   have like tons of major applications [TS]

01:48:59   that are either that are not available [TS]

01:49:02   on the Mac that or the or that have [TS]

01:49:05   really neglected low priority Mac [TS]

01:49:08   versions like the Twitter app you know [TS]

01:49:09   and then we have a lot of apps that say [TS]

01:49:12   oh just use the web app and I'm good [TS]

01:49:16   myself obviously Netflix is a great [TS]

01:49:18   example because you can't even watch 4k [TS]

01:49:20   Netflix on a Mac because there's no 4k [TS]

01:49:22   support probably some dumb copyright [TS]

01:49:23   reason right exactly and like there's so [TS]

01:49:25   many types of apps where the answer on [TS]

01:49:28   the Mac is either a sorry we don't [TS]

01:49:31   support it or juice use our web app best [TS]

01:49:34   case scenario [TS]

01:49:35   for something for a lot of complex [TS]

01:49:36   things like slack you get these like [TS]

01:49:38   weird web native apps that nobody likes [TS]

01:49:40   because they're terrible in a lot of [TS]

01:49:41   ways and perform badly and use all your [TS]

01:49:43   RAM and aren't Mac like and everything [TS]

01:49:45   else so like anything like that's the [TS]

01:49:48   status quo that's the reality like the [TS]

01:49:50   reality is app kit is the past it's and [TS]

01:49:54   and as as capable as it is the people [TS]

01:49:58   who know it the market has said [TS]

01:50:01   otherwise economics have said otherwise [TS]

01:50:03   and people's attention has it has it [TS]

01:50:04   otherwise it in many ways it's it's [TS]

01:50:07   similar to Swift versus Objective C in [TS]

01:50:11   that Objective C like for people like me [TS]

01:50:13   who know it really well Swift came along [TS]

01:50:16   and we're like we don't need I don't [TS]

01:50:17   need that that like I I want to just [TS]

01:50:20   keep using the thing I already know how [TS]

01:50:21   to use it's totally fine but the reality [TS]

01:50:23   was one of the reasons they did need [TS]

01:50:25   Swift looked we we talked about at the [TS]

01:50:27   time it came out is that it is it [TS]

01:50:30   Objective C was old and crufty and it [TS]

01:50:32   and it turned off new developers [TS]

01:50:34   developers were actively avoiding write [TS]

01:50:36   a Objective C because it was old and [TS]

01:50:39   crufty and it would didn't fit modern [TS]

01:50:41   aesthetics for programming languages app [TS]

01:50:44   kit has that problem as an as an entire [TS]

01:50:46   API like app kit is really old and [TS]

01:50:49   crufty and when an iOS developer sees [TS]

01:50:53   advocate for the first time it is not a [TS]

01:50:56   positive impression at all and any and [TS]

01:50:59   and as an iOS developer working through [TS]

01:51:01   this and I know other people who've done [TS]

01:51:02   the same thing it's like it's really it [TS]

01:51:05   doesn't ever let up like there are [TS]

01:51:07   certain parts of it [TS]

01:51:08   like when you when you first discover [TS]

01:51:10   like what and as document does [TS]

01:51:11   automatically for you you're like wow [TS]

01:51:13   this is really capable this is awesome [TS]

01:51:14   but there's just so much friction in [TS]

01:51:17   getting those interfaces developed and [TS]

01:51:19   to be clear like the lower-level [TS]

01:51:21   frameworks like I'll do all the audio [TS]

01:51:23   stuff a lot of the you know data types [TS]

01:51:25   and stuff a lot of those things are [TS]

01:51:27   already unified like a lot of the [TS]

01:51:29   networking like there's so much stuff [TS]

01:51:30   that is already unified between two [TS]

01:51:32   platforms the main area where this is [TS]

01:51:34   necessary is the UI layer and there are [TS]

01:51:37   just so many differences it's not like [TS]

01:51:40   so many things work completely [TS]

01:51:43   differently between a Mac OS and iOS [TS]

01:51:44   it's a huge barrier to developing for [TS]

01:51:47   the Mac it is so hostile and unfriendly [TS]

01:51:52   and and you can't look up help on the [TS]

01:51:54   web because there's almost no results [TS]

01:51:56   for it and it's just it's it's like a [TS]

01:51:59   ghost town of old Croft and on [TS]

01:52:02   friendliness and I know that's not like [TS]

01:52:04   if you know if you're familiar with it [TS]

01:52:06   if you're an expert in app kit you don't [TS]

01:52:08   see it that way but for all the rest of [TS]

01:52:11   the iOS developers who are not familiar [TS]

01:52:13   with it that is how it is so even though [TS]

01:52:16   it is fine for its current developers it [TS]

01:52:20   needs to change because the entire world [TS]

01:52:23   has changed around it so something has [TS]

01:52:26   to happen here and the Mac if they gave [TS]

01:52:29   the Mac its own completely new UI [TS]

01:52:31   framework that was not shared with [TS]

01:52:32   anything look what happened with TV OS [TS]

01:52:34   TV OS had that it had a whole new [TS]

01:52:37   framework that was mostly not UI kit and [TS]

01:52:39   kind of has its own stuff it although it [TS]

01:52:42   has way more in common with UI kit that [TS]

01:52:43   app kit does and making a TV OS app is [TS]

01:52:47   really uncompelled because you have to [TS]

01:52:50   rewrite your entire UI from scratch and [TS]

01:52:51   it's just not very good watch OS has a [TS]

01:52:53   similar problem like watch kit is very [TS]

01:52:55   little like you like it and although [TS]

01:52:57   it's still way more like at the napkin [TS]

01:52:59   and and making a watchkit app is really [TS]

01:53:02   not compelling because it's a these are [TS]

01:53:03   like smaller usage platforms the iPad is [TS]

01:53:07   a great example and I think probably [TS]

01:53:09   honestly a big part of why this kind of [TS]

01:53:11   thing might be might be done on the iPad [TS]

01:53:15   you know John you said earlier like you [TS]

01:53:16   know you don't get an iPad app for free [TS]

01:53:18   but you do get it for cheap like like if [TS]

01:53:21   you have it [TS]

01:53:22   phone app to port to the iPad is effort [TS]

01:53:25   but it's not a ton of effort it's [TS]

01:53:27   nowhere near the amount of effort [TS]

01:53:28   because he uses the same UI framework [TS]

01:53:30   but then like to make a good iPad app [TS]

01:53:32   you have to redesign some part of it [TS]

01:53:34   yeah but it's like you know like [TS]

01:53:36   overcast iPad app is used by something [TS]

01:53:38   like 5% or less of people I use it every [TS]

01:53:40   day but most most people don't use it [TS]

01:53:41   but it was you know it's about 5% extra [TS]

01:53:46   work to do it also so like it was worth [TS]

01:53:48   it to me and and yeah it could be better [TS]

01:53:50   than it is [TS]

01:53:50   it could be more optimized but it [TS]

01:53:53   doesn't need to be like right now it's [TS]

01:53:54   fine on the iPad there's no glaring [TS]

01:53:57   shortcomings with it it's totally fine [TS]

01:53:58   and I didn't it didn't need to be that [TS]

01:54:01   much work and it isn't that much of a [TS]

01:54:02   maintenance headache ongoing if the Mac [TS]

01:54:05   can be anywhere near that I don't expect [TS]

01:54:07   I don't I don't expect a Mac the Mac to [TS]

01:54:09   be as easy to port it to be harder [TS]

01:54:12   because you got menus and all and no [TS]

01:54:14   touch interface right right so it's not [TS]

01:54:16   gonna be the same it's not going to be [TS]

01:54:18   as easy as porting from you know to the [TS]

01:54:20   to the iPad from from iPhone but if it [TS]

01:54:23   can be somewhere near that if it can be [TS]

01:54:26   like only three times harder instead of [TS]

01:54:29   20 times harder like that's a huge huge [TS]

01:54:32   gain that could lead to so many more Mac [TS]

01:54:36   apps and and honestly I know as you said [TS]

01:54:39   John honestly I think I'm not sure the [TS]

01:54:41   Mac has much of a choice because the [TS]

01:54:43   reality is that if they don't do [TS]

01:54:45   something like this it's just going to [TS]

01:54:48   keep stagnating and it will die that is [TS]

01:54:50   it like that is that is the future of [TS]

01:54:52   the Mac it has no future if they don't [TS]

01:54:54   find a way to make it easier to develop [TS]

01:54:56   apps for the Mac if you already have an [TS]

01:54:59   iOS codebase [TS]

01:55:00   all the other way that have a future is [TS]

01:55:01   to sell a hundred times more Mac's but [TS]

01:55:03   that's that's a tall order yeah I think [TS]

01:55:06   if you could suddenly sell as many maxes [TS]

01:55:07   you so iPhones this problem takes care [TS]

01:55:09   of itself and people just continue to [TS]

01:55:10   write an app kit and you're fine but [TS]

01:55:11   that's not the reality right exactly [TS]

01:55:13   so one more technical thing on this this [TS]

01:55:17   is not this is not likely but I like [TS]

01:55:19   thinking about ways you could possibly [TS]

01:55:21   get this win another problem Apple has [TS]

01:55:23   with its platforms arguably and you know [TS]

01:55:27   we can debate what the causes are but [TS]

01:55:28   there's a lot of applications a lot of [TS]

01:55:31   very sophisticated very powerful [TS]

01:55:33   applications are only available on the [TS]

01:55:35   Mac [TS]

01:55:36   and Apple would love for those [TS]

01:55:37   applications to be available on iOS [TS]

01:55:39   devices but for a variety of reasons [TS]

01:55:41   that's not always the case now if you [TS]

01:55:44   make a unified UI framework depending on [TS]

01:55:46   how you do it we're talking about a shim [TS]

01:55:48   layer that lets you basically write with [TS]

01:55:49   a UI kit like API but they call zap get [TS]

01:55:52   stuff under the covers as a quicker way [TS]

01:55:54   to let people reuse some of their code [TS]

01:55:55   and skills to write Mac applications you [TS]

01:55:59   could make something like that in the [TS]

01:56:00   reverse direction to let someone take a [TS]

01:56:03   complicated sophisticated Mac [TS]

01:56:04   application and and allow it to run on [TS]

01:56:08   iOS with some changes to make it work [TS]

01:56:10   for touch I'm sure Apple I mean I don't [TS]

01:56:15   know babbles frustrated by this but I [TS]

01:56:16   know a lot of users are frustrated by [TS]

01:56:17   the fact that there's no Photoshop for [TS]

01:56:19   the iPad right Adobe makes a Photoshop [TS]

01:56:21   for the iPad but it's not it's not [TS]

01:56:23   Photoshop Photoshop it's like then Adobe [TS]

01:56:25   makes a bunch of applications that try [TS]

01:56:26   to play to the strengths of the iOS [TS]

01:56:27   platform but none of them is full none [TS]

01:56:29   of them are full fledged Photoshop like [TS]

01:56:30   there and there other companies trying [TS]

01:56:31   to pick up that slack say find Adobe [TS]

01:56:33   you're not gonna do it trust me you [TS]

01:56:34   don't want to do it important Photoshop [TS]

01:56:36   to the capability wise like affinity [TS]

01:56:39   makes a bunch of great applications and [TS]

01:56:40   what's the other one the other [TS]

01:56:41   well-known one there's Pixelmator [TS]

01:56:43   picture meter pro affinity a core and a [TS]

01:56:46   whole lotta a whole lot of good ones [TS]

01:56:47   yeah there's a lot of applications that [TS]

01:56:48   are targeted but like but there's a lot [TS]

01:56:50   still a lot of sophisticated [TS]

01:56:51   applications that are only on the Mac [TS]

01:56:52   and you say well it's because the Mac is [TS]

01:56:54   powerful enough and so on and so forth [TS]

01:56:55   like all the excuses for why there's [TS]

01:56:57   only iMac eventually will come down to [TS]

01:56:58   well it's written in this framework that [TS]

01:57:00   doesn't run on iOS and we're not gonna [TS]

01:57:02   rewrite our whole application gets is [TS]

01:57:03   really big and complicated I mean the [TS]

01:57:05   only companies that can afford to do [TS]

01:57:06   stuff like that are Microsoft and even [TS]

01:57:08   their iOS versions are you know [TS]

01:57:10   Microsoft Word and Excel kind of a name [TS]

01:57:13   only like they're very different if you [TS]

01:57:16   can have a way to make a unified [TS]

01:57:18   framework and shim layer or something or [TS]

01:57:19   other that lets a bunch of Mac [TS]

01:57:21   developers with some amount of work that [TS]

01:57:25   is less than rewriting their entire [TS]

01:57:26   application which is you know it's [TS]

01:57:28   pretty easy to at that bar some some [TS]

01:57:29   smaller amount of work and rewrite [TS]

01:57:31   everything and UIKit let them sell their [TS]

01:57:33   well-known well-established extremely [TS]

01:57:36   powerful application for the 20 new 27 [TS]

01:57:38   inch iPad pro that is a compelling case [TS]

01:57:42   and it solves it solves Mac developers [TS]

01:57:44   problems in that well now suddenly you [TS]

01:57:45   can address this market with your skills [TS]

01:57:47   that you have right but that's not why [TS]

01:57:49   cares about that gazelle just lets the [TS]

01:57:51   smack developers retire and die whatever [TS]

01:57:52   who cares it solves the problem Apple [TS]

01:57:54   has which is hey we would really like it [TS]

01:57:57   if we could get way more expensive [TS]

01:57:58   powerful applications on iOS Apple's [TS]

01:58:01   been trying that for a long time that's [TS]

01:58:03   why the iPad pro exists and it is [TS]

01:58:05   happening it is happening slowly but one [TS]

01:58:07   way to get a nice boost of complicated [TS]

01:58:10   powerful applications if you could [TS]

01:58:11   somehow make that happen now I think [TS]

01:58:12   that is not a big enough app side for up [TS]

01:58:15   side of people to undertake this it kind [TS]

01:58:17   of goes against what we're trying to get [TS]

01:58:18   people to do is to get people to stop [TS]

01:58:20   writing a napkin and who cares about the [TS]

01:58:21   10 Mac developers compared to the you [TS]

01:58:24   know thousand X number of them that are [TS]

01:58:26   on the other platform so I don't think [TS]

01:58:28   this will happen but for the briefest [TS]

01:58:30   moment I had the idea of like all our [TS]

01:58:33   greatest and favorite Mac applications [TS]

01:58:35   suddenly having cool iOS versions and [TS]

01:58:39   making iOS a more powerful platform and [TS]

01:58:41   giving new life to Mac developers but I [TS]

01:58:44   think that it's extremely unlikely but [TS]

01:58:45   it makes gives me a warm fuzzy to think [TS]

01:58:47   about it so one final question because I [TS]

01:58:51   can't help myself let's assume for the [TS]

01:58:54   sake of discussion that there's a fairly [TS]

01:58:59   complete break and it's not just a shim [TS]

01:59:03   it's a completely new H Ike it do you [TS]

01:59:07   think that Apple would follow the same [TS]

01:59:09   like delegation everywhere pattern that [TS]

01:59:12   that UI kid has today and I'm trying to [TS]

01:59:15   think of a way to summarize delegation [TS]

01:59:17   easily and I can't think of a great one [TS]

01:59:19   but you wanted to all be reactive well [TS]

01:59:21   that's exactly what I'm driving at may [TS]

01:59:23   be reactive app get as delegates all [TS]

01:59:25   over the place - is that what you're [TS]

01:59:26   comparing it to a delegation app kit [TS]

01:59:28   style I would say delegation as compared [TS]

01:59:30   to react style stuff like functional [TS]

01:59:33   reactive programming your so it doesn't [TS]

01:59:35   have to be FRP it doesn't have to be rx [TS]

01:59:36   Swift necessarily but like anything [TS]

01:59:39   that's more modern than delegation even [TS]

01:59:42   just closures everywhere which I [TS]

01:59:44   admittedly Apple is moving toward but [TS]

01:59:46   like yeah something more modern than [TS]

01:59:48   delegation do you think that it would be [TS]

01:59:51   a slight step forward such as closures [TS]

01:59:55   everywhere or do you think it would be a [TS]

01:59:57   whole hog like we're going to just burn [TS]

01:59:59   the world [TS]

01:59:59   the world [TS]

00:00:00   it feels like I haven't talked to you [TS]

00:00:01   gentlemen for seven days it definitely [TS]

00:00:04   hasn't been 48 hours definitely not it [TS]

00:00:07   has been exactly seven days since we [TS]

00:00:09   last spoke allegedly and boy there sure [TS]

00:00:11   was a lot of news seven days ago so I [TS]

00:00:14   think we should talk about that now I [TS]

00:00:17   think that sounds like a good idea are [TS]

00:00:19   we doing any sort of pre-show or are we [TS]

00:00:20   just gonna skip that I think that was [TS]

00:00:22   the pre-show so we're gonna start with [TS]

00:00:26   some follow-up and I'll be stoddard [TS]

00:00:27   right saying there's an Apple support [TS]

00:00:28   document entitled about secure boot [TS]

00:00:31   where it says and I'm quoting full [TS]

00:00:33   security is the default secure boot [TS]

00:00:35   setting offering the highest level of [TS]

00:00:38   security and this was it with regard to [TS]

00:00:40   the t2 chip the liquid metal chip that [TS]

00:00:43   is in the iMac Pro and it is the thing [TS]

00:00:48   where it will only let you boot stuff [TS]

00:00:51   that Apple signs in quasi not really at [TS]

00:00:54   all accurate summary so which one of you [TS]

00:00:56   guys put this in here any other thoughts [TS]

00:00:58   yeah just put it in there because are we [TS]

00:01:01   pretending that we're regarding this not [TS]

00:01:04   recording this two days after the pop-up [TS]

00:01:06   and this is a straightforward follow-up [TS]

00:01:08   we didn't know what the default was [TS]

00:01:09   Apple told us we've got a lot of [TS]

00:01:11   follow-up seven days ago about this and [TS]

00:01:13   we wanted to talk about it it's [TS]

00:01:14   interesting that the cranked up security [TS]

00:01:17   is the default one piece remember the [TS]

00:01:19   full security setting was the one that [TS]

00:01:21   doesn't even let you boot if you have an [TS]

00:01:23   old version of the OS and I'm having a [TS]

00:01:25   hard time figuring out who would find [TS]

00:01:29   that behavior desirable other than [TS]

00:01:31   people who have a bunch of Mac's [TS]

00:01:32   other than enterprise people and you [TS]

00:01:34   know my old definition of enterprise [TS]

00:01:35   software of like the people buying the [TS]

00:01:37   software and other people using it well [TS]

00:01:39   an enterprise situation is where the [TS]

00:01:41   people deciding how the computers work [TS]

00:01:43   are picking things based on how easy it [TS]

00:01:46   is for them to manage the computers not [TS]

00:01:48   based on how nice it is for the people [TS]

00:01:52   who have to use the computers to use [TS]

00:01:52   them but even though even for in an [TS]

00:01:54   enterprise scenario enterprise people [TS]

00:01:56   don't want their computers automatically [TS]

00:01:57   updating without them having extensively [TS]

00:02:00   tested that every single piece of [TS]

00:02:01   software on them is compatible with it [TS]

00:02:02   so I don't know that the Apple phrase is [TS]

00:02:05   this as being like the iPhone oh it's [TS]

00:02:07   like the I thought all this you know [TS]

00:02:08   physical security you know so much [TS]

00:02:10   stronger than the old just firmware [TS]

00:02:11   password now it's like an iOS device [TS]

00:02:13   but iOS devices don't refuse to boot [TS]

00:02:16   unless you up them and then they're [TS]

00:02:17   they're pretty naggy about it telling [TS]

00:02:18   you hey there's a new update look at [TS]

00:02:20   this red badge and your Settings app but [TS]

00:02:21   they don't that you know they don't for [TS]

00:02:24   actually force the update on you and [TS]

00:02:25   that's not must understanding how the [TS]

00:02:26   full security works but anyway when [TS]

00:02:28   Marco gets his Mac Pro he will be able [TS]

00:02:30   to confirm this default and then I [TS]

00:02:32   suppose like just wait for the first dot [TS]

00:02:35   release of High Sierra to come out and [TS]

00:02:36   then reboot and see if it demands that [TS]

00:02:39   you update you'll be a good guinea pig [TS]

00:02:40   right well I it's I think we yeah a lot [TS]

00:02:43   of this remains to be seen but one thing [TS]

00:02:44   I misunderstood about it that I've seen [TS]

00:02:46   I've it seems like their language is [TS]

00:02:48   such that they don't necessarily require [TS]

00:02:50   you to have the latest they say that [TS]

00:02:53   they they can prevent you from booting [TS]

00:02:55   versions that Apple no longer trusts so [TS]

00:02:59   I think what that could mean and this is [TS]

00:03:01   not from PR this is just from things [TS]

00:03:03   I've read on the internet what that [TS]

00:03:05   probably means is like if there's a [TS]

00:03:06   version of the OS that is an older [TS]

00:03:08   version that that security holes were [TS]

00:03:10   discovered in and somebody tries to like [TS]

00:03:12   you know boot that maybe or install over [TS]

00:03:15   your OS with that so they can get to [TS]

00:03:17   your stuff maybe that's what it's what [TS]

00:03:19   it's preventing which is a legitimate [TS]

00:03:21   security concern because I can't imagine [TS]

00:03:24   like if it's actually just like like [TS]

00:03:26   whatever is telling it [TS]

00:03:28   hey the newest version is you know ten [TS]

00:03:30   point thirteen point seven or whatever [TS]

00:03:31   first of all what mechanism doesn't even [TS]

00:03:33   learn about that from that's one [TS]

00:03:35   question but if it you know assuming [TS]

00:03:37   that the secure boot Enclave protection [TS]

00:03:41   unit we know whatever is enforcing this [TS]

00:03:43   assuming that doesn't like the version [TS]

00:03:45   you're running I can't imagine it would [TS]

00:03:48   just like brick your computer like it's [TS]

00:03:51   probably about preventing you from [TS]

00:03:52   rolling it back it's not it's gonna die [TS]

00:03:54   it's not gonna break it it's gonna it's [TS]

00:03:56   gonna download the update but but so [TS]

00:03:58   your computer can download updates [TS]

00:03:59   without you [TS]

00:04:00   approving it like I yeah like when you [TS]

00:04:03   boot it will download the update before [TS]

00:04:06   like as part of the initial boot [TS]

00:04:07   procedures like up I'm gonna boot but [TS]

00:04:09   wait a second I gotta do an update first [TS]

00:04:10   and so it will download front it'll know [TS]

00:04:12   from the internet what the latest [TS]

00:04:12   version is it'll know from the internet [TS]

00:04:14   all the information about like this is [TS]

00:04:15   this is what this is the advantage slash [TS]

00:04:18   whatever of having a whole other CPU [TS]

00:04:20   that you know that there is a procedure [TS]

00:04:23   to boot up the T to chip and that's the [TS]

00:04:25   thing going to the end [TS]

00:04:26   and they're looking at balls information [TS]

00:04:28   downloading the software update applying [TS]

00:04:30   it to your computer someone suffers but [TS]

00:04:31   but your idea about the fact that it's [TS]

00:04:33   not just like it has to be the latest [TS]

00:04:34   but that it's only in cases where Apple [TS]

00:04:36   says there's some version that we [TS]

00:04:37   absolutely don't want anyone running [TS]

00:04:39   that would make more sense to me because [TS]

00:04:41   if they do like a point release where [TS]

00:04:42   they fix like a bug in mail or something [TS]

00:04:44   you know you don't want you don't want [TS]

00:04:46   the thing to force that update or like [TS]

00:04:48   an update from Sierra to hi Sierra like [TS]

00:04:51   presumably the very last version of [TS]

00:04:54   Sierra or whatever it was ten twelve six [TS]

00:04:56   or whatever doesn't have any terrible [TS]

00:04:58   security flaws so it wouldn't force you [TS]

00:05:00   to download High Sierra when you boot it [TS]

00:05:03   would only force you to update if there [TS]

00:05:06   was some terrible security flaw in the [TS]

00:05:08   one you had I don't know we'll see [TS]

00:05:09   rather you'll see because you'll have [TS]

00:05:12   this thing I mean that's the only way [TS]

00:05:13   that I can figure that this makes sense [TS]

00:05:15   because any other any other [TS]

00:05:16   implementation of this I think would [TS]

00:05:18   wreak havoc and nobody would leave it on [TS]

00:05:20   especially because you mentioned [TS]

00:05:21   Enterprise like the last thing [TS]

00:05:23   Enterprise IT managers want is their [TS]

00:05:26   computers forcing them to update their [TS]

00:05:28   their OS like without them doing it or [TS]

00:05:31   approving it or testing it like that's [TS]

00:05:33   the last thing I prize people would want [TS]

00:05:34   so I I have to imagine this is about [TS]

00:05:36   like just not letting you know law [TS]

00:05:39   enforcement take your computer over and [TS]

00:05:42   overwrite your OS with an older version [TS]

00:05:45   that they have some tool that can hack [TS]

00:05:46   and get your stuff like that's that's [TS]

00:05:47   probably what this is about but [TS]

00:05:49   enterprise people do want you not to be [TS]

00:05:52   able to boot their computers off thanks [TS]

00:05:53   know disk they do want you not to be [TS]

00:05:55   able to install like malware on their [TS]

00:05:57   computers where people have like if [TS]

00:05:58   you're running a computer lab and a [TS]

00:05:59   college and you have kind of public [TS]

00:06:00   computers a lot of these features appeal [TS]

00:06:03   in that scenario of sort of protecting [TS]

00:06:04   the computer from the outside it's just [TS]

00:06:06   like the final straw is like oh and by [TS]

00:06:08   the way also updates may be forced on [TS]

00:06:11   you and that is you know that's that's a [TS]

00:06:13   bridge too far yeah I don't expect that [TS]

00:06:15   this would be used to aggressively [TS]

00:06:17   update like on day zero [TS]

00:06:19   I expect this would be to more [TS]

00:06:21   aggressively force along the stragglers [TS]

00:06:23   to the point that like Marco you're [TS]

00:06:25   still on Sierra not High Sierra on most [TS]

00:06:27   of your machines is that right on half [TS]

00:06:29   of my machines how many machines do you [TS]

00:06:32   have oh wait no I have the Mac Mini most [TS]

00:06:34   of my machines [TS]

00:06:34   I wish forgot about the Mac Mini it's [TS]

00:06:37   just like a headless server but the Mac [TS]

00:06:39   Mini still exists does its [TS]

00:06:40   work actually at this point if you had [TS]

00:06:42   secured boot it would probably refuse to [TS]

00:06:44   start because of its age anyway I bring [TS]

00:06:48   this up to say maybe had only run on a [TS]

00:06:49   third of its performance because can we [TS]

00:06:54   not talk about that we're definitely [TS]

00:06:55   talking about that that was a huge deal [TS]

00:06:57   seven days ago it was a huge deal like [TS]

00:07:00   two or three weeks ago and everyone has [TS]

00:07:02   been begging begging us to talk about it [TS]

00:07:04   and I really have no interest in it but [TS]

00:07:05   we'll talk about it anyway the point is [TS]

00:07:07   I think at this point you know a couple [TS]

00:07:09   of months on this may be the time when [TS]

00:07:11   when a secure when a secure boot thing [TS]

00:07:14   may starts to compel you or try I guess [TS]

00:07:16   I was gonna say try but I guess it would [TS]

00:07:18   compel you to upgrade to High Sierra but [TS]

00:07:20   personally I can't imagine if I if I [TS]

00:07:23   were to get an iMac Pro or you know [TS]

00:07:26   whatever computers come with this in the [TS]

00:07:27   future I don't think I would turn this [TS]

00:07:29   from anything but full security like I [TS]

00:07:31   update not day zero or day one if you [TS]

00:07:34   will but I update reasonably quickly and [TS]

00:07:36   I don't think that personally I would [TS]

00:07:39   have any reason to crank this down and [TS]

00:07:41   it sounds like the two of you guys would [TS]

00:07:43   mark oh is that what you're saying that [TS]

00:07:44   you would not want to run it full [TS]

00:07:46   security it depends so I'm gonna have to [TS]

00:07:48   do some research [TS]

00:07:49   over the next negative three to six days [TS]

00:07:52   but it's it's it has to be something [TS]

00:07:56   more like preventing you from like [TS]

00:07:58   overriding the OS with an old hacked [TS]

00:08:00   version it has to be yeah you can't [TS]

00:08:01   imagine it's like I can't imagine it's [TS]

00:08:03   gonna like I'm gonna wake up my computer [TS]

00:08:05   one day and it's gonna say nope sorry [TS]

00:08:07   you can't run [TS]

00:08:08   ciara anymore like that's that I that I [TS]

00:08:10   don't think that's going that's gonna be [TS]

00:08:11   what they do because that again that [TS]

00:08:13   would just wreak havoc with so many like [TS]

00:08:14   big installations and people's needs and [TS]

00:08:17   everything I can't imagine so I'm gonna [TS]

00:08:19   give it the benefit of the doubt and [TS]

00:08:20   leave it on the default which is the [TS]

00:08:21   full security and you know if I'm proven [TS]

00:08:23   wrong in my research three or six days [TS]

00:08:25   ago then maybe I'll change mine if I [TS]

00:08:29   delete it from the show notes the [TS]

00:08:30   screenshot that cable had posted but my [TS]

00:08:33   recollection of it is that it is [TS]

00:08:34   different than the screenshot that is on [TS]

00:08:36   the Apple support document that we'll [TS]

00:08:38   put in the show notes and the wording [TS]

00:08:39   underneath what full security means from [TS]

00:08:42   cable screenshot it was full security [TS]

00:08:44   ensures that only the latest and most [TS]

00:08:47   secure software can be run right it [TS]

00:08:49   requires a network connection in [TS]

00:08:51   software installation right so that's [TS]

00:08:53   the old burdening OH [TS]

00:08:54   you know only the late is the most [TS]

00:08:55   secure software latest and most secure I [TS]

00:08:58   mean is that just saying like the latest [TS]

00:08:59   is always the most secure but latest is [TS]

00:09:01   pretty unambiguous new text on Apple's [TS]

00:09:03   page ensures that only your current OS [TS]

00:09:06   or signed operating system software [TS]

00:09:08   currently trusted by Apple can run and [TS]

00:09:10   that is very different very very [TS]

00:09:12   different you know so only your current [TS]

00:09:14   OS meaning whatever is currently on your [TS]

00:09:16   system or signed operating system [TS]

00:09:18   software currently trusted by Apple and [TS]

00:09:20   that's more like whether Marco was [TS]

00:09:21   talking about currently trusted by [TS]

00:09:22   Apple's Apple could say okay we put out [TS]

00:09:24   a bump point release that is no longer [TS]

00:09:25   trusted so that particular one can't run [TS]

00:09:27   but any of these other 20 versions are [TS]

00:09:29   all fine so maybe Apple it's changing [TS]

00:09:31   its mind I mean I guess I would assume [TS]

00:09:33   the one on the Apple site is the most [TS]

00:09:36   up-to-date one and I would assume that [TS]

00:09:38   the text changes reflect the reality of [TS]

00:09:40   the future but you know as we said Marco [TS]

00:09:42   will find out for us I guess and I'd [TS]

00:09:44   also like to reiterate what what John [TS]

00:09:47   you had said a little while ago about [TS]

00:09:49   any sort of larger organization wanting [TS]

00:09:51   complete and utter control over their [TS]

00:09:53   machines at my work which is a 500 [TS]

00:09:56   employee company I I was put on the [TS]

00:09:59   blessed list that that I could install [TS]

00:10:01   High Sierra but by by default you are [TS]

00:10:04   not allowed to install High Sierra and [TS]

00:10:05   my work is actually fairly hands-off [TS]

00:10:08   with our machines like by default you [TS]

00:10:10   know average users do not get [TS]

00:10:11   administrator privileges but all [TS]

00:10:12   developers do in and they're generally [TS]

00:10:16   not too bad about giving us reasonably [TS]

00:10:19   full access to our computers and yet [TS]

00:10:21   despite that we are not allowed to [TS]

00:10:24   install upgrades of operating systems [TS]

00:10:26   without you know them having bless them [TS]

00:10:28   and so on and so forth and so they're [TS]

00:10:29   kind of sort of beta testing with a [TS]

00:10:31   group of I don't know 10 or 20 of us [TS]

00:10:33   internally of which I'm part of that but [TS]

00:10:35   a friend of mine works at a very very [TS]

00:10:38   large financial organization and I've [TS]

00:10:40   heard through this friend that their [TS]

00:10:44   computer pretty much is inoperable their [TS]

00:10:47   MacBook Pro is pretty much inoperable [TS]

00:10:50   unless they are connected to the [TS]

00:10:52   company's VPN or the company's Wi-Fi [TS]

00:10:54   like that's how stodgy these sorts of [TS]

00:10:58   larger companies especially in financial [TS]

00:11:00   services can get overtime is that this [TS]

00:11:04   person's computer they basically can't [TS]

00:11:06   get to anything on the Internet [TS]

00:11:08   even on their home Wi-Fi until they've [TS]

00:11:10   connected to Big Brother I mean to [TS]

00:11:12   accompany the company's VPN so that they [TS]

00:11:15   can be monitored I mean tracked I mean [TS]

00:11:17   just taken care of it's crazy out there [TS]

00:11:19   I can tell you anyway William Pierce [TS]

00:11:22   writes in there's a lot of women car [TS]

00:11:23   journalists these days but one blog that [TS]

00:11:25   sprung to mind is at Black Flag [TS]

00:11:27   jalopnik.com [TS]

00:11:29   and it's by Steph Schrader and Alex King [TS]

00:11:31   it's a great great place for racing new [TS]

00:11:33   solid coverage and they've gotten plenty [TS]

00:11:35   of scoops I have not had the chance to [TS]

00:11:37   check this out I've been pretty much off [TS]

00:11:38   the internet all day I'm assuming one of [TS]

00:11:40   the two of you did probably John yeah [TS]

00:11:42   this was a but we had an ask ap question [TS]

00:11:45   about you know car magazines and for [TS]

00:11:48   someone's kid and I went into how all [TS]

00:11:50   the car magazines are written as [TS]

00:11:51   assuming that everyone who's reading it [TS]

00:11:53   is dude and you know and how it's not [TS]

00:11:59   really a great thing to introduce young [TS]

00:12:01   readers to if you want them to avoid [TS]

00:12:05   perpetuating you know sort of behavior [TS]

00:12:10   that excludes people whatever but the [TS]

00:12:12   question was specifically about [TS]

00:12:13   magazines and I'm assuming the person [TS]

00:12:15   meant paper magazines because when I see [TS]

00:12:16   magazines that's what I think but [TS]

00:12:18   William brings up you know good point if [TS]

00:12:20   you want to look for you know a more [TS]

00:12:23   modern inclusive take on whatever your [TS]

00:12:26   hobby may be online is probably the [TS]

00:12:28   place to do it I do [TS]

00:12:29   I do read some car sites i watch more [TS]

00:12:31   YouTube videos that I read car sights [TS]

00:12:32   but I certainly go to Jalopnik a lot [TS]

00:12:34   mostly led there by other people that I [TS]

00:12:37   follow linking to cool car stories on [TS]

00:12:39   Jalopnik and so yeah they have you know [TS]

00:12:42   blogs and and journalists and if you're [TS]

00:12:45   looking for some some kind of news [TS]

00:12:47   you're looking for I looked I looked at [TS]

00:12:48   this thing and there's a lot of racing [TS]

00:12:49   news and I'm really not into racing but [TS]

00:12:51   that's probably a better bet for finding [TS]

00:12:53   new voices as they say in the automotive [TS]

00:12:57   news industry we respond to this week by [TS]

00:13:00   Casper starts sleeping ahead of the [TS]

00:13:02   curve get 50 dollars towards any [TS]

00:13:04   mattress purchase by visiting Casper [TS]

00:13:06   comm slash ATP and using code ATP at [TS]

00:13:09   checkout [TS]

00:13:10   Casper continues to revolutionize its [TS]

00:13:13   line of sleeping products to create an [TS]

00:13:15   exceptionally comfortable sleep [TS]

00:13:16   experience one night at a time their [TS]

00:13:19   mattresses are perfectly designed for [TS]

00:13:21   hue [TS]

00:13:22   engineered to soothe and cradle your [TS]

00:13:24   natural geometry because they figure you [TS]

00:13:26   spend a third of your life sleeping so [TS]

00:13:28   you might as well be comfortable Kaspar [TS]

00:13:30   mattresses provide all the support the [TS]

00:13:32   human body needs in all the right places [TS]

00:13:34   they combine multiple supportive memory [TS]

00:13:36   foams for a quality sleep surface with [TS]

00:13:39   just the right amounts of both sink and [TS]

00:13:41   bounce and a breathable design that [TS]

00:13:43   helps you sleep cool and regulate your [TS]

00:13:45   temperature throughout the night all of [TS]

00:13:47   these mattresses are designed developed [TS]

00:13:49   and assembled in the US and people love [TS]

00:13:52   them with over 20,000 reviews and an [TS]

00:13:54   average of 4.8 stars across Casper's [TS]

00:13:57   online store Amazon and Google Casper is [TS]

00:13:59   becoming the Internet's favorite [TS]

00:14:01   mattress it comes in three models [TS]

00:14:02   currently the Casper the wave and the [TS]

00:14:04   essential and they also offer a wide [TS]

00:14:07   array of other products to ensure better [TS]

00:14:08   sleep like sheets and pillows and stuff [TS]

00:14:10   all of this is kept affordable for you [TS]

00:14:11   too because Casper cuts out middle [TS]

00:14:14   people and sells directly to you the [TS]

00:14:15   consumer and all this is very easy to [TS]

00:14:17   get because if you aren't completely [TS]

00:14:19   satisfied they offer no hassle returns [TS]

00:14:22   it's delivered to your door you can [TS]

00:14:24   sleep on it for a hundred nights and if [TS]

00:14:26   you don't like it you can return it no [TS]

00:14:28   questions asked free shipping and free [TS]

00:14:30   returns in the US and Canada there's [TS]

00:14:32   really nothing to lose with Casper I now [TS]

00:14:34   sleep on a Casper and I can tell you [TS]

00:14:35   it's great start sleeping ahead of the [TS]

00:14:37   curve with Casper get fifty dollars [TS]

00:14:39   towards any mattress purchase by [TS]

00:14:41   visiting Casper comm slash ATP and using [TS]

00:14:44   code ATP at checkout terms and [TS]

00:14:46   conditions apply [TS]

00:14:46   once again that's Casper comm slash ATP [TS]

00:14:49   code ATP to get $50 towards any mattress [TS]

00:14:52   thank you so much for Casper for [TS]

00:14:53   sponsoring our show let's do some ask [TS]

00:14:59   ATP Scott Lau he'd writes in what do you [TS]

00:15:02   think the odds are of a tension [TS]

00:15:04   detection on Apple watch it could really [TS]

00:15:06   refine race to wake display remains long [TS]

00:15:08   as long as you're looking at it turns on [TS]

00:15:09   with attention etc so quick recap on the [TS]

00:15:12   iPhone don't call it X there is a [TS]

00:15:15   feature by which if it realizes that [TS]

00:15:18   you're not actively looking at the phone [TS]

00:15:19   because it's using the front-facing like [TS]

00:15:21   camera array if you're not looking at [TS]

00:15:24   the phone it will dim itself reasonably [TS]

00:15:25   quickly and if it's dimmed but still on [TS]

00:15:28   it will actually turn itself to full [TS]

00:15:31   brightness again once it realizes you've [TS]

00:15:33   looked at it again and it's actually [TS]

00:15:34   extremely cool [TS]

00:15:35   and so Scots thought was hey could we [TS]

00:15:38   use that same tech in the Apple watch so [TS]

00:15:40   as you're looking at the Apple watch [TS]

00:15:42   then it will continue to be full [TS]

00:15:44   brightness it won't ever turn itself off [TS]

00:15:46   until it knows that you're no longer [TS]

00:15:48   looking at it at which case obviously it [TS]

00:15:50   can turn itself back down or offer etc [TS]

00:15:52   so my eyes like I I do think that this [TS]

00:15:55   will on an infinite time scale the thing [TS]

00:15:57   but I don't see it happening anytime [TS]

00:16:00   soon because even though they've taken [TS]

00:16:01   what was effectively a Microsoft Kinect [TS]

00:16:03   and shrank it down to B and the notch in [TS]

00:16:06   the iPhone 10 I don't see it becoming [TS]

00:16:08   small enough to be on the Apple watch [TS]

00:16:09   anytime soon much less having the [TS]

00:16:12   battery power to power it but that's [TS]

00:16:15   just me Marco what do you think yeah I [TS]

00:16:17   guess I don't think it makes a lot of [TS]

00:16:18   sense honestly because you know for all [TS]

00:16:20   the reasons you said like I can't [TS]

00:16:22   imagine that would have the battery [TS]

00:16:23   power to be constantly scanning to see [TS]

00:16:25   if you're looking at it or not and also [TS]

00:16:27   for the feature of things like keeping [TS]

00:16:30   the screen on for a while if you are [TS]

00:16:32   looking at it again I it doesn't seem [TS]

00:16:36   like it's worth the power it doesn't [TS]

00:16:36   seem like they have the physical space [TS]

00:16:38   to put the sensors on the front of it I [TS]

00:16:39   don't think they intend for you to be [TS]

00:16:41   looking at the watch without touching it [TS]

00:16:44   for very long anyway alright John any [TS]

00:16:47   other thoughts if it had the battery [TS]

00:16:50   power to do the face detection dick [TS]

00:16:53   power all the cameras and have them do [TS]

00:16:55   all the things they should spend that [TS]

00:16:57   battery power and having a watch face [TS]

00:16:58   that never turns off I know it's [TS]

00:17:00   probably different amounts but like [TS]

00:17:01   that's the goal I think that's a better [TS]

00:17:03   goal like to basically get to the point [TS]

00:17:04   where the watch face never turns off [TS]

00:17:06   using using whatever better technology [TS]

00:17:08   better screens whatever they have to do [TS]

00:17:09   that's what you want [TS]

00:17:11   and so this in-between thing where you [TS]

00:17:12   burn a lot of battery energy trying to [TS]

00:17:14   be super smart about when you turn the [TS]

00:17:16   screen on and off seems like a bad [TS]

00:17:17   trade-off to me moving on [TS]

00:17:20   max Velasco not writes in I'm in the [TS]

00:17:22   market for a raid zero external SSD [TS]

00:17:24   storage I'm wondering what you what you [TS]

00:17:26   use and what you'd recommend I'm on a [TS]

00:17:28   Thunderbolt 2 machine but I'm open to a [TS]

00:17:30   backwards compatible Thunderbolt 3 Drive [TS]

00:17:31   if you happen to be using one thank you [TS]

00:17:33   for any advice I have precisely zero [TS]

00:17:36   input on this so Marco take it away as [TS]

00:17:39   mentioned seven days ago [TS]

00:17:41   Tiff's iMac has had a four drive raid [TS]

00:17:45   zero SSD Thunderbolt 2 enclosure for the [TS]

00:17:48   last few years [TS]

00:17:49   so I have I have a direct experience [TS]

00:17:51   with these they're fine [TS]

00:17:53   they're nothing special they tend to [TS]

00:17:55   come with really loud crappy fans I [TS]

00:17:57   replace the fan and hers with a much [TS]

00:17:58   quieter knock to a super quiet fan and [TS]

00:18:02   that was a very very good upgrade to do [TS]

00:18:03   to it that didn't seem to reduce the [TS]

00:18:06   life of anything at all because it's [TS]

00:18:08   really just cooling the very very hot [TS]

00:18:10   thunderbolt chip that's inside it's not [TS]

00:18:11   really no but SSDs don't need much [TS]

00:18:13   schooling themselves so it's fine it [TS]

00:18:15   we've never had any problems with it [TS]

00:18:16   like you know disconnecting or failing [TS]

00:18:18   or anything like that but they are it is [TS]

00:18:21   a fairly expensive solution a much [TS]

00:18:25   better solution if I don't know what [TS]

00:18:27   what Max's needs are here but if you can [TS]

00:18:30   all if you can at all avoid having an [TS]

00:18:32   external raid enclosure you'll be better [TS]

00:18:34   off for it if you can either just get [TS]

00:18:36   like one big disk of some sort or if you [TS]

00:18:39   can use network storage like an ass or [TS]

00:18:42   something like that like that's [TS]

00:18:44   generally better it's just less hassle [TS]

00:18:47   and less crap and unless you know that's [TS]

00:18:49   hardware to break and maintain but if [TS]

00:18:51   you still want to do this the enclosure [TS]

00:18:54   we got was from owz you know mac [TS]

00:18:56   sales.com I think it was a few hundred [TS]

00:18:58   dollars maybe for just for the enclosure [TS]

00:19:00   you know anything anything involving [TS]

00:19:02   multiple disk enclosures with a [TS]

00:19:04   thunderbolt interface it's not going to [TS]

00:19:05   be cheap another option that you have is [TS]

00:19:08   to use the built-in software raid in Mac [TS]

00:19:11   OS I know I don't think that applies to [TS]

00:19:13   a PFS yet but but that right John do you [TS]

00:19:16   know what do you want to know if you can [TS]

00:19:17   do software raid at all with a PFS yeah [TS]

00:19:19   I don't remember I remember have the [TS]

00:19:22   same vague memory as you do that there [TS]

00:19:23   was a bunch of limitations I think they [TS]

00:19:25   might have taken it away with AP FS but [TS]

00:19:27   I'm not sure yeah anyway so if you can [TS]

00:19:29   do software raid still with whatever [TS]

00:19:31   your file system needs are another [TS]

00:19:33   option you have if the performance of [TS]

00:19:35   this won't be too bad is to just get a [TS]

00:19:37   bunch of really inexpensive USB 3 [TS]

00:19:39   enclosures because you can get a USB 3 [TS]

00:19:42   as sd enclosure for like 15 bucks and I [TS]

00:19:44   have a few of these from from my own [TS]

00:19:46   computer bus-powered that's the [TS]

00:19:48   important part bus back yes and bus [TS]

00:19:49   powered right and because you know SSDs [TS]

00:19:51   internal power so that way like you [TS]

00:19:53   avoid having not only like additional [TS]

00:19:55   cable clutter but also if you can [TS]

00:19:57   eliminate some devices own power supply [TS]

00:20:00   from your set up you eliminate a major [TS]

00:20:03   source or [TS]

00:20:03   failure and weirdness because those [TS]

00:20:05   little like power bricks that come with [TS]

00:20:06   everything are terrible like they just [TS]

00:20:08   aren't very reliable they fail all the [TS]

00:20:10   time [TS]

00:20:10   not to mention that they're big and [TS]

00:20:12   bulky and ugly so anything that can be [TS]

00:20:14   bus powered is generally a gain for you [TS]

00:20:16   here and because you're powering SSDs [TS]

00:20:18   and not big spinning disks you should be [TS]

00:20:20   looking away with that so if you can get [TS]

00:20:22   away with just a handful of cheap USB [TS]

00:20:24   enclosures if that will work for your [TS]

00:20:26   performance and throughput needs that [TS]

00:20:28   will be way cheaper and just a simpler [TS]

00:20:31   setup in general but again it all [TS]

00:20:34   depends on what you need if you do still [TS]

00:20:35   truly need an external raid zero [TS]

00:20:37   enclosure I've had totally fine luck [TS]

00:20:40   with the oh do with the o WC I think [TS]

00:20:42   called it the Thunder Bay mini or [TS]

00:20:44   something that is it's the one that held [TS]

00:20:45   specifically for two and a half inch [TS]

00:20:47   drives it holds four of them [TS]

00:20:49   it's Thunderbolt from what WC and it has [TS]

00:20:51   a very loud fan until you put it not to [TS]

00:20:53   a fan in there Joshua Rodgers writes do [TS]

00:20:56   any of you use any soundproofing or [TS]

00:20:58   acoustic material in the room that you [TS]

00:21:00   podcast in to help with audio recording [TS]

00:21:02   quality I will start I used to before I [TS]

00:21:06   moved rooms on account of our [TS]

00:21:08   forthcoming kid I used to use literally [TS]

00:21:11   a fleece blanket that I push pinned into [TS]

00:21:14   the wall behind my iMac and that was [TS]

00:21:16   enough sound deadening to get the job [TS]

00:21:18   done [TS]

00:21:18   Marco had told me very early on that I [TS]

00:21:21   was echoing quite a bit and this was [TS]

00:21:23   probably during the neutral time in fact [TS]

00:21:24   and something in like 2013 or there [TS]

00:21:28   abouts I push pin to this blanket to the [TS]

00:21:30   wall and it stayed up for about four [TS]

00:21:32   years [TS]

00:21:32   oh he moved rooms now we have some sort [TS]

00:21:36   of soundproofing something or other that [TS]

00:21:38   I think Marco you might have recommended [TS]

00:21:39   that I will put a link in the show notes [TS]

00:21:40   soundtracks Pro maybe I'll have to look [TS]

00:21:43   through my Amazon order history it has [TS]

00:21:45   the cool like swirly pattern it [TS]

00:21:46   soundtracks bro no definitely not [TS]

00:21:48   I probably got something considerably [TS]

00:21:50   cheaper knowing me so I will put links [TS]

00:21:52   to both of these things into the show [TS]

00:21:55   notes and basically I have I have a [TS]

00:21:58   panel of nine of these so so let me back [TS]

00:22:03   up a half-step so my iMac and my desk is [TS]

00:22:05   in between two two windows above the [TS]

00:22:08   iMac as a panel of nine I don't know [TS]

00:22:10   foot long by foot wide sound-deadening [TS]

00:22:15   things and so there's basically the wall [TS]

00:22:18   behind my iMac is all sound deadening [TS]

00:22:21   material there's nothing on the opposite [TS]

00:22:23   wall because it's far enough away not [TS]

00:22:24   that this room is that big but it's far [TS]

00:22:26   enough away that I don't think it really [TS]

00:22:27   matters [TS]

00:22:28   I wanted a link to the thumbtacks that [TS]

00:22:30   you use they kept the fleece blanket on [TS]

00:22:32   your wall for four years because I'm [TS]

00:22:34   police blanket that I want to hold on [TS]

00:22:36   the wall you know I'll use I'll use some [TS]

00:22:38   terrorists case he would say pushpins [TS]

00:22:39   I'll use thumbtacks to put it on the [TS]

00:22:41   wall I would think within five minutes [TS]

00:22:42   that thing would fall down did you use a [TS]

00:22:44   hundred of them are these the world's [TS]

00:22:46   best thumbtack no it was it was not a [TS]

00:22:49   terribly heavy nor thick fleece blanket [TS]

00:22:52   I'm sure I have a picture somewhere of [TS]

00:22:54   it but I don't know if I could dig it up [TS]

00:22:56   easily but it was not a very heavy [TS]

00:22:57   blanket by any means it was fairly thin [TS]

00:22:59   do you think you feel like you made a [TS]

00:23:00   difference well Marco I mean this in the [TS]

00:23:03   most respectful way possible [TS]

00:23:05   Marco complained and moaned about my [TS]

00:23:07   echoes and then I put that up and then [TS]

00:23:09   he stopped complaining and moaning about [TS]

00:23:10   my echoes so either he figured out a way [TS]

00:23:12   around it that's how I show my approval [TS]

00:23:15   yeah exactly [TS]

00:23:16   when Marco stops complaining you know [TS]

00:23:18   he's you know he's happy but anyway [TS]

00:23:20   Marco tell me again what you have you [TS]

00:23:22   sound treks soundtrack soundtracks DRA X [TS]

00:23:25   Pro there you go my Amazon you get like [TS]

00:23:28   a decent sized pack for like 40 or 50 [TS]

00:23:30   bucks with like if with like I think [TS]

00:23:33   like eight one by four foot sections [TS]

00:23:35   something like that they also make [TS]

00:23:37   larger ones if you want to do like a big [TS]

00:23:38   wall you can you can get larger panels [TS]

00:23:40   that are about two by five four two by [TS]

00:23:43   four feet that's that I have a few of [TS]

00:23:45   those behind my computer yeah so this is [TS]

00:23:48   the kind of thing so it does help to [TS]

00:23:50   treat the room with soft things to make [TS]

00:23:52   you sound better a lot of times people [TS]

00:23:54   go a little overboard with it and they [TS]

00:23:56   just kind of keep going because they [TS]

00:23:57   think they need it or it just looks cool [TS]

00:23:59   it makes you look like a really [TS]

00:24:00   professional podcaster to have sound [TS]

00:24:02   deadening material you know in your [TS]

00:24:04   entire office but usually you don't need [TS]

00:24:07   as much of it as people use and also [TS]

00:24:10   there's lots of alternatives that that [TS]

00:24:13   will work just as well you're hanging a [TS]

00:24:15   blanket on the wall was totally fine [TS]

00:24:16   because what you basically need is for [TS]

00:24:19   the room to be to be filled with as many [TS]

00:24:21   soft things as possible that can avoid [TS]

00:24:24   echoes [TS]

00:24:24   that's what you're trying to avoid here [TS]

00:24:26   is is you're not trying to insulate like [TS]

00:24:29   sound insulation to like make the room [TS]

00:24:31   soundproof so that people outside the [TS]

00:24:33   room can't hear you and that outside [TS]

00:24:35   sounds can't get in that's not what this [TS]

00:24:37   is that's a different thing and that's [TS]

00:24:39   and you don't do that for 50 bucks all [TS]

00:24:42   we're doing here is trying to reduce the [TS]

00:24:45   echoes of sound bouncing around hard [TS]

00:24:47   surfaces of the room and so some places [TS]

00:24:50   just don't need this like one of the [TS]

00:24:52   reasons why like it's like sometimes we [TS]

00:24:53   joked like when podcasters have to [TS]

00:24:54   record like in our closets for some for [TS]

00:24:56   some reason it sounds great [TS]

00:24:58   because closets are small spaces filled [TS]

00:25:01   with soft clothing so there's like [TS]

00:25:03   there's no echoes that can be had if you [TS]

00:25:05   think about the opposite the worst place [TS]

00:25:07   you could record would be like in a [TS]

00:25:08   bathroom like with with like a hard [TS]

00:25:10   floor and tile walls everywhere [TS]

00:25:12   especially like if you ever like moved [TS]

00:25:14   out of an apartment and you you've like [TS]

00:25:16   you've already packed up like the shower [TS]

00:25:18   curtain and all your towels from the [TS]

00:25:20   bathroom so it's just totally empty you [TS]

00:25:21   notice how incredibly echoey it is with [TS]

00:25:23   with no soft things in there so we're [TS]

00:25:26   going for the opposite of that like you [TS]

00:25:28   generally just want soft things in the [TS]

00:25:30   room that doesn't have to be sound [TS]

00:25:32   editing material a rug helps [TS]

00:25:34   tremendously and you know just having [TS]

00:25:37   blankets around like if you have like a [TS]

00:25:39   like a you know a giant open hard floor [TS]

00:25:42   put a blanket or a rug on it while you [TS]

00:25:44   record but the best that you can do is [TS]

00:25:46   as casey mention with the blanket the [TS]

00:25:49   best place to put something soft is on [TS]

00:25:51   whatever cert whatever wall or whatever [TS]

00:25:53   else is behind the microphone because if [TS]

00:25:56   you think about how you talk [TS]

00:25:57   towards a microphone the first place [TS]

00:25:59   that you're gonna get those echoes is [TS]

00:26:01   they're gonna be bouncing off the wall [TS]

00:26:03   behind the mic you know your sounds [TS]

00:26:04   going to go pass the mic bounce off the [TS]

00:26:06   wall behind it and then get fed back [TS]

00:26:07   into the mic as an echo from the back or [TS]

00:26:10   from the size or whatever else anything [TS]

00:26:11   you can do to minimize sound echoing [TS]

00:26:14   from right behind the mic you will see a [TS]

00:26:16   large result from that it can be sounder [TS]

00:26:19   material if you're looking for something [TS]

00:26:21   you know more like a permanent kind of [TS]

00:26:24   setup that you can hang up and just [TS]

00:26:25   leave there for years and be done with [TS]

00:26:26   it yeah go for something go for some [TS]

00:26:28   kind of acoustic foam and honestly it [TS]

00:26:30   doesn't really matter what you caustic [TS]

00:26:31   foam you get there they're not very [TS]

00:26:32   different all you're looking for is like [TS]

00:26:33   soft squishy material to absorb the [TS]

00:26:35   echoes I like the soundtracks pro [TS]

00:26:37   because it looks cool has this nice [TS]

00:26:38   like swirly kind of hexagon like pattern [TS]

00:26:41   so that's kind of fun but you know it [TS]

00:26:43   doesn't really matter you can get pretty [TS]

00:26:44   much anything and pretty much any price [TS]

00:26:45   and it'll work about the same a second [TS]

00:26:47   thing that you should consider if this [TS]

00:26:49   is a problem for you consider using a [TS]

00:26:51   different microphone a lot of [TS]

00:26:53   microphones that are that come highly [TS]

00:26:55   recommended on like gear guides and [TS]

00:26:58   stuff and how to podcast and even become [TS]

00:27:00   recommended from podcasters who just [TS]

00:27:01   don't have a lot of experience with with [TS]

00:27:03   other microphones a lot of them are [TS]

00:27:06   inexpensive large diaphragm cardioid [TS]

00:27:09   condenser z' this includes things like [TS]

00:27:11   the blue yeti and a whole lot of [TS]

00:27:13   entry-level microphones basically if [TS]

00:27:15   it's a condenser and you spent less than [TS]

00:27:17   200 bucks for it it's probably one of [TS]

00:27:19   these the problem with these they do [TS]

00:27:21   sound very nice and crisp and they pick [TS]

00:27:23   up a lot of detail in your voice but [TS]

00:27:25   they also pick up like if a pin drops in [TS]

00:27:28   the room like they'll pick up any [TS]

00:27:29   background noise and as a result they [TS]

00:27:32   also very very easily pick up echo from [TS]

00:27:34   the walls if you just use a mic with a [TS]

00:27:37   different pickup pattern some people say [TS]

00:27:39   you have to use a dynamic mic this is [TS]

00:27:41   not actually the case you have to use a [TS]

00:27:42   super cardioid mic that's what you [TS]

00:27:44   actually want it can be a condenser or [TS]

00:27:45   dynamic it should be super cardioid or [TS]

00:27:48   hyper-cardioid what you're looking at [TS]

00:27:50   and I did a whole review you can listen [TS]

00:27:51   to audio samples what you're looking at [TS]

00:27:53   basically is the shure beta 87a that's [TS]

00:27:57   what you're looking at it is about 250 [TS]

00:27:59   bucks [TS]

00:28:00   it's an XLR mic not a USB mic I don't [TS]

00:28:03   know of any USB super cardioid podcast [TS]

00:28:06   microphones if anyone knows of any [TS]

00:28:08   please let me know but what this does [TS]

00:28:10   the super cardioid pickup pattern [TS]

00:28:12   it basically tightens and narrows the [TS]

00:28:15   area from which it picks up sound so it [TS]

00:28:19   will pick up a lot less sound coming [TS]

00:28:21   from different directions and coming [TS]

00:28:24   from further away from the mic which in [TS]

00:28:26   turn will kind of inherently reduce the [TS]

00:28:29   amount of echo it picks up it's also [TS]

00:28:30   really nice a little reduce the amount [TS]

00:28:31   of background noise it picks up like if [TS]

00:28:33   somebody you know you know breaks a [TS]

00:28:34   plate in the next room over like you you [TS]

00:28:36   will hear a much quieter version of it [TS]

00:28:38   than you would on a different pickup [TS]

00:28:39   pattern because it's just the sound [TS]

00:28:41   drops off further the more you go away [TS]

00:28:43   from the mic so anything you can do to [TS]

00:28:45   narrow that pickup pattern that will [TS]

00:28:48   serve you very well in the mic and [TS]

00:28:51   you won't need to do as much babying of [TS]

00:28:52   the room yeah you know it's really weird [TS]

00:28:56   I was using a rode podcaster for I don't [TS]

00:29:00   know something like the first year that [TS]

00:29:01   I was doing this with you two fine [TS]

00:29:03   gentlemen and then I am now using what [TS]

00:29:06   do I have I don't have the 87 I have the [TS]

00:29:07   58 a is that right yes remember you [TS]

00:29:09   should switch to the 87 a by the way [TS]

00:29:11   yeah I guess I guess it's you sound what [TS]

00:29:14   you sound good enough that I don't [TS]

00:29:15   bother you about it that's the mark of [TS]

00:29:18   approval it really is it really is [TS]

00:29:22   tremendous the difference because right [TS]

00:29:24   now you know my my mouth is within an [TS]

00:29:26   inch of the pop filter not the pop [TS]

00:29:29   filter but the a foam on the edge of the [TS]

00:29:30   microphone and if I if I were to turn my [TS]

00:29:33   mouth and maybe do something like the [TS]

00:29:36   other direction it is tremendous the [TS]

00:29:38   difference that that makes and if I go [TS]

00:29:40   you know 180 you can barely even hear me [TS]

00:29:45   it's really crazy what what a super [TS]

00:29:48   cardioid super cardioid yeah and I think [TS]

00:29:51   yeah the beta 58a is a supercar do a [TS]

00:29:53   dynamic mic it is it is very good it's [TS]

00:29:56   very good for the price it's it has a [TS]

00:29:58   little it's a little bit like Bumi and [TS]

00:30:01   fat in like the mid bass frequency area [TS]

00:30:03   yeah it is I mean but for that for the [TS]

00:30:09   price it's it's pretty good but but I do [TS]

00:30:10   recommend it you know if you can if you [TS]

00:30:12   have a setup that can take an XLR mic [TS]

00:30:14   and you can spend whatever that it's [TS]

00:30:17   like a hundred and sixty bucks for that [TS]

00:30:18   save up another 80 bucks and get the 87 [TS]

00:30:21   a instead it's better yeah this is a [TS]

00:30:23   hundred and sixty you're right and if [TS]

00:30:25   you say the 87 a is 60 more than Soviet [TS]

00:30:28   John what is your situation with regard [TS]

00:30:30   to sound deadening material John does [TS]

00:30:32   not count John has an inexpensive large [TS]

00:30:36   diaphragm condenser microphone expensive [TS]

00:30:38   like 350 bucks or something wasn't it no [TS]

00:30:41   well you probably I think the most it [TS]

00:30:45   ever cost was 250 but still yeah you [TS]

00:30:47   have the PG assure PG 42 USB it's it's [TS]

00:30:51   sounds incredible it sounds very very [TS]

00:30:54   good but it is an incredibly picky [TS]

00:30:57   microphone for room dynamics because [TS]

00:30:59   it's a what I mentioned earlier it's the [TS]

00:31:01   kind of picks up like a needle dropping [TS]

00:31:02   like it picks up anything [TS]

00:31:04   however all the rules of this microphone [TS]

00:31:07   ceased to apply in John Syracuse's [TS]

00:31:10   office and I don't know why and I've [TS]

00:31:12   never wanted to tell him to change [TS]

00:31:14   anything because for some reason that I [TS]

00:31:17   have that I cannot fathom or figure out [TS]

00:31:19   he sounds perfect all the time [TS]

00:31:20   he does not have any echo there's never [TS]

00:31:23   any noise or his on the track any that [TS]

00:31:25   although all the problems that you would [TS]

00:31:27   usually get with this type of condenser [TS]

00:31:29   and I bought that exact microphone to [TS]

00:31:31   try in my mega review and it was [TS]

00:31:33   incredibly picky for me [TS]

00:31:35   but for some reason it's perfect for [TS]

00:31:38   John so I don't like the rules didn't [TS]

00:31:41   apply in John's office well some rules [TS]

00:31:43   do I mean material for getting to this [TS]

00:31:48   question the main reason I don't have [TS]

00:31:50   sound deadening material is back when we [TS]

00:31:52   were all buying sound foam and stuff of [TS]

00:31:55   course mark I bought this worldly one [TS]

00:31:56   that he was just telling you about and I [TS]

00:31:57   went I'm like oh I should get that same [TS]

00:31:58   sorority stuff Marco got and I went to [TS]

00:32:00   the web page where they sell it and it [TS]

00:32:01   was $60 and my interpretation was it's [TS]

00:32:04   $60 for one rectangle and then I looked [TS]

00:32:08   at how much how many rectangles Marco [TS]

00:32:10   has on his balls Mike well Marco you [TS]

00:32:12   know all right fine but no way in hell [TS]

00:32:15   I'm in I'm spending 60 $60 times you [TS]

00:32:18   know 12 to put foam on my wall and I'm [TS]

00:32:22   like this is really cool sign I did some [TS]

00:32:23   researching for cheaper foam but it's [TS]

00:32:25   just like ya know I'm just not gonna do [TS]

00:32:27   it so anyway now that I know that it is [TS]

00:32:29   not $60 for one square it's $60 for what [TS]

00:32:32   how many is it I think six or twelve [TS]

00:32:34   it's it's enough like the $60 pack of [TS]

00:32:37   the one by two sheets whatever that is [TS]

00:32:40   that's enough for pretty much anybody to [TS]

00:32:42   make their setup sound great yeah so [TS]

00:32:44   that sounds more reasonable although [TS]

00:32:45   really annoys me that the pattern [TS]

00:32:47   doesn't line up if you buy all the [TS]

00:32:48   squares that really annoys accent yeah [TS]

00:32:50   and you and I have some of the big ones [TS]

00:32:52   as I mentioned it doesn't line up on [TS]

00:32:53   them either but at least with the big [TS]

00:32:54   ones you have fewer seams yeah so anyway [TS]

00:32:57   but I don't I still don't have the phone [TS]

00:32:58   and also I won't ask Marco how he [TS]

00:33:00   attached it to his wallet he's like I [TS]

00:33:01   permanently stuck it on there and if I [TS]

00:33:02   ever want to remove it I have to repaint [TS]

00:33:03   the wall I was like yeah yeah like [TS]

00:33:06   there's like there's like adhesive [TS]

00:33:07   squares that they recommend that you use [TS]

00:33:09   with it and I got those so each one of [TS]

00:33:11   them is stuck on with something like six [TS]

00:33:14   like a little like two by one inch [TS]

00:33:16   adhesive square things like double side [TS]

00:33:18   kind of things and yeah I'm pretty sure [TS]

00:33:20   and they haven't fallen off at all which [TS]

00:33:22   is great but I'm pretty sure that's [TS]

00:33:23   that's a pretty permanent installation [TS]

00:33:25   for the wall you should use the KC's [TS]

00:33:27   thumbtacks well it's funny you bring [TS]

00:33:30   that up we tried to use command strips [TS]

00:33:33   on the foam that we have and they have [TS]

00:33:35   all fallen over time but I think if [TS]

00:33:38   memory serves I did get the adhesive [TS]

00:33:41   squares that Marko recommended and then [TS]

00:33:44   we put those on the back of the foam and [TS]

00:33:47   then command stripped those does that [TS]

00:33:49   make sense [TS]

00:33:50   so it's foam adhesive squares command [TS]

00:33:53   strips and that actually seems to be [TS]

00:33:55   holding pretty well so far that's a good [TS]

00:33:57   idea [TS]

00:33:58   you can put it right over the thumbtack [TS]

00:33:59   holes if you have them but but anyway as [TS]

00:34:01   for as for my room early on in this [TS]

00:34:04   series at someone I forget who was [TS]

00:34:06   marking do you remember which one of the [TS]

00:34:08   helpful audio people I'm about to talk [TS]

00:34:09   about I believe it was Marcus - Paula [TS]

00:34:11   yes there you go that's probably it sent [TS]

00:34:14   us a bunch of advice about what we're [TS]

00:34:15   doing and what he had to say about my [TS]

00:34:16   mic was that he heard a lot of echo and [TS]

00:34:18   he surmised that I had my monitor really [TS]

00:34:21   close to my microphone and he was right [TS]

00:34:22   and so the only thing I've done to make [TS]

00:34:25   this room better for audio and [TS]

00:34:27   podcasting as I moved my monitor farther [TS]

00:34:29   away from my microphone or my mic from [TS]

00:34:31   farther away from my monitor I still [TS]

00:34:33   think the echo is there it's just the [TS]

00:34:35   delay is slightly different the thing I [TS]

00:34:38   think that's good about this room is [TS]

00:34:41   like to my right is a giant bookshelf [TS]

00:34:43   and bookshelves are surprisingly good [TS]

00:34:45   baffles for sound because of all the [TS]

00:34:47   little knobbly books you know and little [TS]

00:34:49   gaps between them and behind them and [TS]

00:34:50   even even my bookshelves where every [TS]

00:34:52   spine is meticulously lined up it helps [TS]

00:34:56   if the spines are uneven I bet it works [TS]

00:34:58   even better [TS]

00:34:59   this room is carpeted which also helps [TS]

00:35:01   and the windows do have blinds of them [TS]

00:35:04   which are also kind of wobbly but yeah [TS]

00:35:07   it's nothing and and the game's really [TS]

00:35:09   long my Mike and I have like tons of I [TS]

00:35:11   have a double pop filter and a foam [TS]

00:35:13   shield on it so I don't know I'm [TS]