0:00:00I've got a problem oh yeah having
0:00:02uncomfortable thoughts about jeep
0:00:04wranglers oh you just need to come up
0:00:07here where it's cold and it'll convince
0:00:09you not to buy he got only half a car
0:00:11it's like thirty degrees here and
0:00:13snowing right now I don't wanna hear
0:00:14your lip about how we don't have winter
0:00:15you just want to be driving around with
0:00:17no roof and no doors no roof no doors no
0:00:19stability no quality no safety yeah
0:00:22definitely no safety it's got a roll
0:00:25cage for chrissakes how you gonna tell
0:00:26me no safe yeah so if you get t-boned in
0:00:29that I'm sure the roll cage will save
0:00:31you the doors well oh wait yeah there's
0:00:35a reason they had to add a roll cage
0:00:36because it rolls over if you like
0:00:37breathe on funny oh come on that's what
0:00:40stability controls for this computer
0:00:42solve us from physics anyway I want it I
0:00:45think I want a Wrangler and that's
0:00:47probably a problem nate'd let her go far
0:00:49so save me for myself of all the
0:00:52vehicles that you have lusted after for
0:00:54a week here and there I think a Wrangler
0:00:57is actually one of the less offensive
0:00:59ones it's pretty offensive it's still
0:01:02not a good vehicle it's either that or
0:01:03go far so John what would you have me
0:01:05have between a Wrangler and a Golf R
0:01:06easy go hard no contest yeah if though
0:01:09if those are your choices I'd go with
0:01:11John on that yeah those are the only two
0:01:13choices it's not it's not a choice at
0:01:15all I mean a Wrangler I think is a
0:01:16better choice than your weird Cadillac
0:01:17rectangle thing and your SUV dreams but
0:01:20I don't I think I think the Cadillac is
0:01:22better than the Wrangler to like I'm
0:01:24trying to think of a worse car and all
0:01:25I'm coming up with is one of those giant
0:01:27four-door luxury pickup trucks yeah well
0:01:32but at least those have a little more
0:01:34function than a Wrangler no it's about
0:01:36the same they're both they're both
0:01:37ridiculous things also if it's just that
0:01:42reminds me demure oh did a review of
0:01:45what was it the g65 an AMG G 65 I think
0:01:49that's right I might have that wrong so
0:01:51it's a twin-turbo v12 G Wagon and I
0:01:54believe it's pronounced wagon
0:02:00so we did a video on the guoguan and he
0:02:03got it gets better every time I say it
0:02:04he did a video on the guoguan and he
0:02:06hated it okay so fine
0:02:09all right so how about this I I don't
0:02:10have the money for a
0:02:12Quadrifoglio but how about that or Golf
0:02:14R or Wrangler what would you have John
0:02:17Quadrifoglio of the go far even though
0:02:19it's uglier
0:02:21I seen him in real life now I saw a
0:02:22white one the other day and I thought of
0:02:24you I say it does not look good in white
0:02:26holy shit it doesn't look good in any
0:02:28color but like this I've seen enough now
0:02:30that I know it's not just like oh maybe
0:02:32it looks weird in pictures but it looks
0:02:33good in person I don't like it anywhere
0:02:34I don't like pictures and I like it in a
0:02:36box I don't like it with a fox John I
0:02:39love you but you are so wrong about this
0:02:41no I just don't like how that car looks
0:02:43but it's a good car if for while it's
0:02:45working
0:02:46we don't even know maybe like the
0:02:48reliability could be fine it's too new
0:02:49like this is the new Alpha but we'll say
0:02:51no it's not look here's a here's your
0:02:54new rule if you're going to get
0:02:57something fun and fast unless it is made
0:02:59by a Japanese company Lisa yeah well
0:03:03what is fun and fast it's made by
0:03:04Japanese company that's also at least
0:03:05mildly affordable so like the Toyota
0:03:07burro would be it's not that it's not
0:03:11fast you know you got a GTR which is too
0:03:13much money and that's it that's all you
0:03:15got maybe NSX is fun and fast it's
0:03:18unaffordable it wasn't one of your
0:03:20criteria just you're gonna lease it
0:03:22you're at least least the NSX it'll be
0:03:24come on alright let's say even though
0:03:26this is over my budget let's say for the
0:03:28sake of discussion 50 grand
0:03:29so for 50 grand what do you get that's
0:03:31Japanese fun and fast I rest my case I
0:03:36take in Miata fast fun hard fast
0:03:40I mean look a Wrangler is not fast
0:03:41either but it but you you find fun for
0:03:44other reasons
0:03:45to me a Miata would would be a better
0:03:48version of that and plenty fun yeah
0:03:50that's a good midlife crisis car for you
0:03:51after your second child is is in third
0:03:54grade but no I'm serious so I mean my
0:03:58options are Civic type-r which means I
0:04:01would need to install a paper bag in the
0:04:04car to wear over my head every time I
0:04:06drove it no they won't let you buy one
0:04:08you're over 25 I've heard the type r is
0:04:14phenomenal to drive but it is so
0:04:16unabashedly truly hideous to look at you
0:04:20get it in black maybe try to hide all
0:04:21the wings and ducks and scoop
0:04:23that's the answers just take the wing
0:04:25off like do a wing delete if you will
0:04:26it's all wing there is do you think the
0:04:28wing off they just left with the chassis
0:04:29that's it the entire body that car is a
0:04:32wing or a scoop there I would imagine
0:04:34there must be some kind of like like you
0:04:37know marketing differentiation here at
0:04:39work we're like they have to make the
0:04:41Civic are so hideous that it won't
0:04:44detract from sales of the NSX from older
0:04:46people with taste maybe but the regular
0:04:48Civic is kind of gross to like I think
0:04:50they just had a styling a styling fart
0:04:52on this whole generation great
0:04:55generation of civics like ever they're
0:04:57getting great reviews people say they're
0:04:58great cars yeah so much so that a lot of
0:05:00the best parts of them are showing up in
0:05:03the Accord but the styling isn't as
0:05:05rough styling is rough
0:05:06I mean if you think about all kidding
0:05:08aside I mean you can get a Wrangler spec
0:05:10to like 40 or 45 grand or something like
0:05:11that which is truly absurd you can get a
0:05:13Wrangler spec before I would never
0:05:15getting into the pickup truck territory
0:05:19Jeep Wrangler great that makes perfect
0:05:22sense
0:05:22good job I wonder how I thought I was
0:05:26trying to move on now brought myself
0:05:27right someone the Chairman even pointed
0:05:29out like the Wrangler with like leather
0:05:30straps for door handles but but
0:05:32television screens on the backs of the
0:05:33seats like that is a car that has lost
0:05:36its way weight honest question are the
0:05:38back seats in a Wrangler like or is
0:05:40there actually enough depth there that
0:05:42is where you got to keep your 17 friends
0:05:44but you go surfing Wow they go in the
0:05:47back seats quote-unquote their seats
0:05:50even in the coop their seats
0:05:51no front seats aren't seats is like you
0:05:53know a bunch of boards with it with a
0:05:55piece of vinyl stretched across it when
0:05:57was the last time you were in a Wrangler
0:05:58John I'm so over you right now so anyone
0:06:01ever really entering or they just on it
0:06:05why do you do this to me why do this why
0:06:09you so mean
0:06:10see nobody everyone see here we talk
0:06:11about fancy snow tires on my fancy Tesla
0:06:13but everybody wants to hear you talk
0:06:15about your terrible car ideas of getting
0:06:16this cheap crappy car I have like an
0:06:18intervention of Casey Casey's like two
0:06:21suggestible when it comes to like his he
0:06:23has like a car shaped hole in his life
0:06:27[Laughter]
0:06:31maybe this will fill it and
0:06:34and just anything like Jeep Wrangler
0:06:36like this yeah and so I don't know just
0:06:42like he runs across the wrong ad or the
0:06:44wrong YouTube video and just like you
0:06:46know I should get a Winnebago next thing
0:06:51is gonna be like why not he just saw our
0:06:58house to afford it my parents briefly
0:07:00had like a little tiny which calm RV and
0:07:04I am still a little upset that they got
0:07:05rid of it
0:07:06I was joking but there it is yep that's
0:07:09that's the seed that and that seed will
0:07:10grow in your mind until maybe three
0:07:12years from now twenty one thousand forty
0:07:15one thousand two hundred thirty-five
0:07:16dollars for new Wrangler holy schnikeys
0:07:18what just why at that point why that
0:07:21there are so many better things in every
0:07:23way tell me what tell me what for okay
0:07:26to Honda Civics I would rather drive to
0:07:30mondo civics than then around like one
0:07:32to one in a different color like you
0:07:34know just alternate the excitement of
0:07:37having two cars that you rotate raid one
0:07:41for cars if one car has a repair it's so
0:07:43much less than if one you could drive
0:07:45both of them to the ocean at the same
0:07:46time I don't think I would need to go
0:07:50that quite them you've never actually
0:07:53need to go apparently the magic keyboard
0:07:58with numeric keypad is bendy and I guess
0:08:01that's something we're supposed to be
0:08:02upset by because I tell you what when I
0:08:04get a new keyboard the first thing I do
0:08:06is a bend test to make sure it's not
0:08:07bendy no not not bendy you didn't read
0:08:11the link
0:08:11no not bendy like if you put it in your
0:08:13pocket and sit on it it'll Bend like an
0:08:14iPhone 6 but there's two kinds of
0:08:18reports one kind is I open up the box on
0:08:22my brand-new magic keyboard with a
0:08:24numeric keypad which is a hell of a
0:08:25product name I don't know if that's the
0:08:27official name but you know what I'm
0:08:28talking about and I took it out of the
0:08:30box and put it down on the desk in front
0:08:32of me and it's bent like it's warped it
0:08:34wobbles like you know what I mean so
0:08:35that's that's no good that's just like
0:08:37you know manufacturing defect or sure
0:08:38maybe it got bent in transport or
0:08:41something like that but the second
0:08:42strain of this kind of story is I got a
0:08:46new magic keyboard take it out of the
0:08:47box with
0:08:47typed on it for a week and apparently
0:08:50the force of my typing bent it in the
0:08:51middle if you're gonna put only little
0:08:53pads or feet on four corners or very
0:08:55long keyboard and it's so thin that it
0:08:57bends in the middle from the force of
0:08:59typing that is a pretty big failure for
0:09:02the functionality of a keyboard now your
0:09:04beloved magic keyboard that you have
0:09:05without a numeric keyboard and maybe is
0:09:06has a short enough wheelbase so to speak
0:09:08that having little feets on the corners
0:09:11doesn't make it bend in the middle or
0:09:13maybe you should just not look at your
0:09:14keyboard to see if it's bent in the
0:09:15middle but anyway we'll link to this MJ
0:09:21size web page that has a collection of
0:09:23all of this information I don't know if
0:09:26it's a manufacturing defect kind of
0:09:27makes me feel better it's like oh
0:09:28they'll fix the manufacturing defect but
0:09:30if it was actually the case that the
0:09:32mere act of typing on the keyboard bends
0:09:33it that's that's pretty bad we are
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0:10:20like this giant heavy thing like falling
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0:11:13thank you so much to fracture for
0:11:15sponsoring our show let's do a little
0:11:20bit of ask ATP Paige Hilliard writes in
0:11:25is there any way the three of you could
0:11:26come up with a list of realistic things
0:11:27that you would like to have as holiday
0:11:28gifts even if some of you already have
0:11:30them helpful hints would be greatly
0:11:33appreciated and potentially opening up
0:11:35your website to sell t-shirts or gear
0:11:36year-round would be even more
0:11:37appreciated so the bad news is is that
0:11:40Paige's spouse or or what-have-you is
0:11:44protect probably going to be listening
0:11:46to the show and so Paige now you can't
0:11:48use any of these ideas because we're now
0:11:51giving them away however you assume we
0:11:53have useful ideas that's also fair I was
0:11:57thinking about this on and off most of
0:11:58today I try to every year and I did not
0:12:02do it this year I tried it every year do
0:12:04a like holiday roundup of here's a bunch
0:12:07of different gifts that I recommend at
0:12:10all sorts of different price points and
0:12:11so I'll put in the show notes the last
0:12:14couple of years of these posts and
0:12:15they're just stuff I like sometimes it's
0:12:18boardgame sometimes it's stupid lights
0:12:19like cables or something dumb like that
0:12:22but this year I didn't do it mostly
0:12:25because I didn't feel like I had that
0:12:26many new and interesting ideas so I'm
0:12:29missing out on that sweet sweet
0:12:30affiliate money but my priority is to do
0:12:33a post that I think is useful before it
0:12:35is make a few bucks on affiliate money
0:12:37so that's why I didn't write it the only
0:12:39thing I can come up with that I think is
0:12:40useful is for those of us with new
0:12:41phones a Qi charger seems like a pretty
0:12:46good answer now you would have to figure
0:12:48out would would your partner want a
0:12:51stand up Qi charger safer at a desk or
0:12:53would they want ace a lay down Qi
0:12:56charger safer like at a nightstand but
0:12:59that seems to me to be a pretty good
0:13:01option and a pretty safe option for
0:13:03anyone that has an iPhone 8 or newer I
0:13:06have a hard time with this because I am
0:13:09very hard to shop for as everyone in my
0:13:12family always complains about
0:13:14right around this time of year and when
0:13:16I do think of something that I actually
0:13:18want I just buy it immediately and don't
0:13:19give anyone else a chance to buy it for
0:13:21me or sometimes the things that I want
0:13:23are too expensive that I would feel
0:13:25comfortable asking for as a gift so it's
0:13:28it's kind of a hard topic especially
0:13:31because we don't know anything about
0:13:33this person really it's so it's you know
0:13:37like if they like coffee I can tell you
0:13:39lots of coffee gear that that could be
0:13:41useful I've written up on my side a few
0:13:43times so yeah like Casey I didn't do
0:13:45anything with any kind of gift guide
0:13:47this year but you know coffee equipment
0:13:51kitchen equipment in general you know it
0:13:53for whatever they like to do that's
0:13:55always you know interesting gift ideas
0:13:57but it's really hard without knowing
0:13:59anything else I can think of like you
0:14:02know kind of a Greatest Hits kind of
0:14:03thing like just stuff that everyone
0:14:05seems to enjoy and certain kitchen
0:14:07gadgets fit this requirement I think
0:14:08pretty well certain ones are things like
0:14:11having like a really nice pair of gloves
0:14:14for the winter is always like good for
0:14:16Christmas I enjoy having a really nice
0:14:19flashlight the there's a line of
0:14:21flashlights by the brand Phoenix with an
0:14:23F F VIII and IX that I really enjoy that
0:14:26just use like two double-a batteries and
0:14:28you can get smaller bigger ones with the
0:14:30two double-a ones I think are the best
0:14:32size to weight balance they're super
0:14:35nice LED flashlights that's just kind of
0:14:36like a pleasant thing to have around
0:14:39your mention of the Qi charging mats is
0:14:41really good the Mophie one that the
0:14:44Apple store sells is excellent I sure
0:14:47had a few other ones now I actually just
0:14:49got in the Grove made one those just
0:14:51came today I have not yet actually used
0:14:54it beyond just five seconds to test it
0:14:55out because it's it's gonna be my
0:14:57nightstand charger and I haven't got a
0:15:00bed yet so but it looks really nice and
0:15:03it's very well built it's pretty big
0:15:05but but pretty well built pretty nice
0:15:07and yeah just you know the I mean
0:15:08there's all sorts of stuff like you know
0:15:10I like having a really nice backpack I
0:15:12have I have a backpack from Briggs &
0:15:15Riley which is a fancy luggage company
0:15:17they make fantastic luggage which is why
0:15:19I got their backpack and I just love
0:15:20that it's just it's so delightful to
0:15:22have that any kind of you know like
0:15:24certain people myself included like
0:15:26having nice leather goods
0:15:28so like you know like a leather laptop
0:15:31case maybe something like that like that
0:15:33that kind of stuff you know but I mean
0:15:36this this stuff this is so like kind of
0:15:38general purpose
0:15:39I like having really good travel mugs
0:15:42zojirushi makes a really nice travel mug
0:15:44that I really really like yeah I I don't
0:15:49really know it's it's really hard to
0:15:51know like how to be more specific than
0:15:54this but those are all nice things yeah
0:15:58you know hearing you talk gave me a
0:15:59couple of other ideas one of the best
0:16:02investments I've ever ever ever made was
0:16:05what I call my go pack which is really
0:16:07just a collection of cables and whatnot
0:16:08that are basically duplicates of
0:16:11anything I would need to charge any of
0:16:13my devices and a couple other
0:16:14miscellaneous bits so you know if I ever
0:16:17go overnight anywhere I just grabbed
0:16:21this bag that has all of my chargers in
0:16:23it always they never ever leave that bag
0:16:25unless they're you know in a hotel being
0:16:27used or whatever and I don't have to you
0:16:30know remove my entire installation from
0:16:32my bedside table or anything like that
0:16:33pack it up and then reassemble it when I
0:16:35get back home it is just everything in
0:16:37duplicate and I've written a couple of
0:16:39log posts about that and so I'll put a
0:16:41link to that in the show notes it can
0:16:43get pretty spendy depending on what you
0:16:44want I think I've spent like 200 bucks
0:16:46on mine and I'm not talking about the
0:16:47bag itself I'm talking about all the
0:16:48bits inside but I have a couple of
0:16:50fairly expensive things that I find very
0:16:51useful that most normal humans probably
0:16:53wouldn't and then additionally hearing
0:16:56you talk about your did you say Briggs &
0:16:58Riley umm backpack I happen to adore
0:17:02anything that Tom bin makes that's T OMB
0:17:04IH n it's maybe a little late to order
0:17:08it for this holiday season unless you
0:17:10are on the west coast because they're
0:17:12Seattle based but pretty much anything
0:17:14Tom Ben makes I adore and I highly
0:17:17recommend that as much as Marko seems to
0:17:20highly recommend Briggs & Riley as well
0:17:22so just a couple of quick thoughts that
0:17:24Marco made me think of before
0:17:26one more thing also I came up with
0:17:28something more specific in the kitchen
0:17:29category I have gotten as gifts for
0:17:32other people in the past my favorite
0:17:34kitchen thermometer which is the thermo
0:17:37works thermapen mark 4 if you have any
0:17:40need for a kitchen thermometer and
0:17:42if you ever do anything in the kitchen
0:17:43ever you do even if you don't think you
0:17:45need one you need one and once you have
0:17:48one you will use it for lots of things
0:17:49every kitchen should have a thermometer
0:17:51and a scale and the scale you can get
0:17:54pretty much any cheap garbage it doesn't
0:17:55really matter the thermometer they
0:17:56actually matter quite a bit there's
0:17:57pretty big variations in quality and
0:17:59accuracy and speed and everything else
0:18:00what you want is the thermapen mark for
0:18:04from thermo works it runs about 70 bucks
0:18:08usually when if you find a good sale I
0:18:11think it's about 90 if it's not on sale
0:18:13this is the one like if you see like on
0:18:15Top Chef if you ever see anybody using a
0:18:17kitchen thermometer it is probably this
0:18:19one there's a reason for that
0:18:21it's awesome this is like the I was
0:18:23gonna say the Cadillac of thermometers
0:18:25but Cadillac aren't that great anymore
0:18:26are they this is this is the Tesla of
0:18:29thermometers like this it's great
0:18:34generally and like you know I mentioned
0:18:35Phoenix earlier with the LED flashlight
0:18:37thing and those are like 50 bucks you
0:18:39know so these aren't cheap but it's
0:18:42really nice when if you're the kind of
0:18:44person who values quality and nice
0:18:46things but almost everyone is about
0:18:48something you know it might not be about
0:18:49the same things that you or I are but
0:18:50almost everyone can appreciate quality
0:18:52in something and it's really nice when
0:18:55you can find something like this in a
0:18:57category where like pretty much
0:18:58everything else in the category is kind
0:19:00of mediocre garbage and if you can
0:19:02figure out what's like the one really
0:19:04awesome thing in that category even if
0:19:07it's a little bit ridiculously priced
0:19:08that kind of thing makes a good gift
0:19:10because the kind of thing we're like
0:19:11people who receive it can probably
0:19:14appreciate something really awesome like
0:19:16that but because it's expensive and or
0:19:19obscure they might not ever know about
0:19:21it or they might not feel justified
0:19:23spending a price for it so that's the
0:19:24perfect kind of thing that makes a great
0:19:25gift is like I wouldn't have bought this
0:19:28for myself
0:19:29but I really appreciate having it yeah I
0:19:31do agree that that is one of the best
0:19:33gifts the oh man this is great but I'm
0:19:35so glad I didn't spend them honey huh
0:19:37that is that is the sweet spot John
0:19:39we've delayed you far too long what are
0:19:41your thoughts I reject the premise of
0:19:43this question which is that we should we
0:19:46should list things that we like because
0:19:49people who listen to the show like the
0:19:50same things that we like I mean we can
0:19:52try to list things that we like
0:19:53even if we already have them like that
0:19:55is one task but the the second part of
0:19:57this is for those of us who are
0:19:59partnered with a TV fans the idea being
0:20:01that if we list things that we like that
0:20:03people who like the show will also like
0:20:05those same things and I don't think
0:20:06that's true like just because we like
0:20:08that means we like them everyone who
0:20:09listens the show is not like us
0:20:11hopefully so oh yeah and also I'm
0:20:14terrible giving gift so even if I had a
0:20:16good ideas for gifts that wouldn't
0:20:17listen to me so that's very helpful
0:20:20thank you John yeah and I put this
0:20:21question in there and I basically put it
0:20:23in just to say can you come up with a
0:20:24list of but and the answer for me is no
0:20:26I can't I cannot do that because I don't
0:20:28think I should I don't think it makes
0:20:29sense and even if it was phrased so it
0:20:31does make sense I'm bad at that so I'm
0:20:33glad YouTube filled in page just like
0:20:36you and your partner know that Marco and
0:20:38I are your favorites and John is my and
0:20:41it too aspect what do you ask for I'm
0:20:43not as bad as Marco in that I don't
0:20:46immediately buy everything that I want
0:20:47but when people ask me what they should
0:20:50get me my answer is always nothing which
0:20:51is probably the worst thing you can say
0:20:52if someone wants to get you a gift so
0:20:54I'm just terrible all around when it
0:20:55comes to gift stuff yeah honestly I
0:20:57would love to get to the point with the
0:20:59family where like like maybe we just get
0:21:02gifts for the kids right like that's
0:21:03that seems like a better way to do it
0:21:05but which say this is I think this is
0:21:07the kind of like many adults wanted this
0:21:09outcome but it's very hard to get
0:21:11families to agree to that we're getting
0:21:13close like we should have like a big
0:21:15family map of like how far like we've
0:21:16we've successfully spread the only gifts
0:21:20for kids name we've done pretty fun
0:21:23alright moving on
0:21:25rob Fiorentino writes how do you feel
0:21:28about your code or your apps after you
0:21:30have written them are they more like
0:21:31your children or your tools out in the
0:21:33shed I will speak for myself and say any
0:21:36code that I've written more than three
0:21:37days ago is always garbage and any code
0:21:40I've written in the last three days is
0:21:41often garbage John I'm not sure like
0:21:45with the children or tools thing I'm not
0:21:46sure like what what Rob is getting at
0:21:50there you can take a lots of different
0:21:52ways like you know tools in your shed or
0:21:56children like I don't know anyway I'll
0:21:58just tell you how I feel about my code
0:21:59because I don't understand that part of
0:22:00it I think he's just saying you know is
0:22:01it is it disposable and you're like yeah
0:22:03whatever or is it oh this is my creation
0:22:06that I've laid
0:22:07for and it is perfect in every possible
0:22:09way I mean like you said Casey it really
0:22:13depends on the time line sometimes you
0:22:15write code and as soon as you've done
0:22:17writing it you just hate it but it's
0:22:18like you just got to do what you got to
0:22:20do cuz it's work right
0:22:22other times you're you can be mildly
0:22:25satisfied with it but there is I there's
0:22:28really no such thing as far as I'm
0:22:30concerned as code that I write that I
0:22:32can look back on the long term and not
0:22:35see all the terrible problems with like
0:22:38a couple years down the line no matter
0:22:40how incredibly happy you are with
0:22:43something you I will I always do see
0:22:48what's really wrong with it it you know
0:22:51if only because if that code lives on
0:22:54like if it's if you're aware of its
0:22:56existence it probably means that it's
0:22:58still in use which means that it has to
0:23:00be modified to account for you know the
0:23:03changes of reality like you know things
0:23:05change and you have to modify an augment
0:23:07your code to do new things and
0:23:08inevitably you get to the point where
0:23:10you are modifying your code in ways that
0:23:12you do not anticipate when you wrote it
0:23:14and nothing makes code uglier it makes
0:23:17you more annoyed with it then more than
0:23:19trying to change it in ways that it
0:23:21wasn't meant to be changed like you
0:23:22never thought things would change along
0:23:24this axis you always thought this
0:23:25bedrock assumption would be true when
0:23:27the entire system was built around it
0:23:28then that bedrock assumption is not true
0:23:30and you're like oh god do I read the
0:23:33whole thing how can I change it is it
0:23:35too much like and then so you just feel
0:23:36bad about it so it's mostly the more
0:23:39time goes on and the more it has to
0:23:40change the more bad I feel about it
0:23:43Marko pretty much all my old code I look
0:23:46at it as yeah this this is just garbage
0:23:50and it's a burden like I I love deleting
0:23:54code I love when a library comes around
0:23:57that removes the need for some code I've
0:24:00written I can just delete my code and
0:24:01use the library or you know new API is
0:24:03from Apple one those come and stuff like
0:24:05that
0:24:06I I code to accomplish something else
0:24:11like I code to build a product the
0:24:14actual code I take very little joy in
0:24:17like is it beautiful or I'll
0:24:20or interesting or clever like I don't I
0:24:24take no joy in any of that so I write
0:24:28code and immediately even as I'm writing
0:24:30it I'm like oh god I don't want to have
0:24:32to maintain this I don't like I don't
0:24:33want to have to do this crazy thing like
0:24:35but it's all to accomplish the end so
0:24:39basically immediately after my code is
0:24:41written I don't like it and I just try
0:24:45to move on if I can yeah I mean I gave a
0:24:48slightly Starkie answered and saying
0:24:50everything I've written I hate and that
0:24:51is only slightly snarky do you feel that
0:24:54most of the time but all kidding aside
0:24:56in my entire career and I've been doing
0:24:58this for jeez like 13 years now I think
0:25:03there have been maybe probably five or
0:25:08less like blocks of code I don't mean
0:25:11that is like five lines I mean like like
0:25:13projects maybe it's a better way of
0:25:14phrasing if they've been like five or
0:25:16less projects wherein I've written some
0:25:18code and thoughts myself you know what
0:25:20that was really solid and I did
0:25:23something really good and/or clever
0:25:25there and usually clever is bad when it
0:25:29comes to code but occasionally I'm good
0:25:31and and so I think all kidding aside
0:25:34probably five times the last my career
0:25:36I've looked back and said that was that
0:25:38was good work everything else is either
0:25:41well it didn't immediately turn into a
0:25:43fireball so I consider that you know
0:25:46[Laughter]
0:25:48that no one else is telling him to
0:25:51change to you know change his product in
0:25:54ways that he didn't anticipate it
0:25:56changing because he's the one who
0:25:59decides how it's going to change him and
0:26:00if anyone has any kind of idea how it
0:26:02might change in the future it's him
0:26:03because he's gonna be and it's not like
0:26:05he's saying he predicts everything but
0:26:06you never have he never has someone
0:26:08coming and saying you should add this
0:26:11feature that is that flies in the face
0:26:13of your entire internal design of your
0:26:15application even if he has the notion to
0:26:19do that he's not forced to do it on an
0:26:21abbreviated timeline or like all sorts
0:26:23of like the pressures of the real job
0:26:25that forces you to do things chef when
0:26:27the iPhone 10s coming out and you got to
0:26:28make the release yeah yeah yeah yeah
0:26:30right but but does that's that's like
0:26:32that's more like just that's that's what
0:26:34the entire job is is using someone
0:26:36else's api's you know you don't write
0:26:38UIKit you rolling with the punches of
0:26:40apple's platform you're writing on top
0:26:41of a platform is everyone has that same
0:26:43thing if you're writing you know
0:26:44whatever you're writing on top of a
0:26:45framework and that framework changes and
0:26:48you gotta you know roll with those
0:26:49punches too like but I'm saying for like
0:26:51the things that your actual product does
0:26:52so I think it makes you feel worse when
0:26:55you have to change your thing in a way
0:26:59that it was never meant to be changed
0:27:00and you have to do it ASAP
0:27:03and you know whether you think it's a
0:27:05good idea or not it has to happen that
0:27:06does like the worst damage to even even
0:27:08code that you that you feel like you
0:27:10know was was arranged in a reasonable
0:27:12way and designed in a reasonable way you
0:27:15have to go in there and basically like
0:27:17injure it and scarred and make it uglier
0:27:20and just makes you want to just never
0:27:21look at it again and tear it all down
0:27:22and start over and you know I know those
0:27:25feels all too well now one of my
0:27:27favorite pastimes on the show is to bag
0:27:29on Marco for not having a job however in
0:27:31Marco's defense I have to stand up for
0:27:33Marco on this one I feel like just in
0:27:37the last few days Marco and I don't know
0:27:38how much of this you want to talk about
0:27:40on the show so I'm gonna be a little
0:27:40cagey about it but just in the last few
0:27:42days you had maybe not an emergency but
0:27:45a oh crap moment where some external
0:27:47force forced you to do a whole bunch of
0:27:49things and write a whole bunch of code
0:27:50that it seems like you if you were
0:27:53planning on doing it at all it was going
0:27:55to be long in the future and so I do
0:27:57think John you're you're usually right
0:28:00but it just so happens that it seems
0:28:01like Marco you've just gone through this
0:28:03recently so how do you feel about that
0:28:05code whether or not you want to discuss
0:28:06the motivations behind it I'm happy to
0:28:08talk about it so the cook you're
0:28:10referring to is overcast handling
0:28:13permanent feed redirects or feed changes
0:28:16for podcasts basically the way I built
0:28:20the overcast crawling infrastructure and
0:28:23database is that feeds have feeds are
0:28:28keyed uniquely on URLs so that every
0:28:30every feet and feeds map one-to-one to
0:28:32URLs and those URLs really can't or it
0:28:34shouldn't change in the feed like if you
0:28:37have a new URL gets a new feed entry and
0:28:39then episodes are represented as feed
0:28:41items and feed items are keyed based on
0:28:45their feed
0:28:47plus then like you know a bunch of
0:28:49random numbers based on like you know
0:28:51hashing their contents and then their
0:28:52GUI D and stuff and so once you have
0:28:56feeds and feed items match to a certain
0:29:00feed URL it's not trivial to then move
0:29:04those subscribers to a different feed
0:29:06URL because all the item IDs for
0:29:08everything they have subscribed to will
0:29:10be different and I can't easily change I
0:29:12can't just like modify the ones that are
0:29:15on the old feed to point to the new feed
0:29:17without having lots of other problems
0:29:18and everything else and also worth
0:29:21noting is that the feed items table is
0:29:26170 gigs now the table that map's users
0:29:30to feed items is also about 170 gigs
0:29:33these are the two biggest and highest
0:29:34traffic tables and overcast it is very
0:29:38hard to modify these tables at all to
0:29:40modify the schema to add indexes or to
0:29:44change the schema talk to run alter
0:29:45tables on it it pretty much can't be
0:29:48completed in any kind of real-time
0:29:49fashion the only way to really change
0:29:51that would be to set up a whole new
0:29:53database as a replica modify it and then
0:29:56make it the new master and that's that's
0:29:58just a lot of administration work and
0:30:00it's it's risky it involves you know
0:30:02downtime and I hate doing it and so all
0:30:05this is to say that for for overcast to
0:30:09modify what URL a feed entry points to
0:30:13is a big deal and so for since the
0:30:17beginning of overcast the way it handled
0:30:20redirects was in HTTP terms it treated
0:30:25them all as 302 is temporary redirects
0:30:27so if it encountered a redirect it would
0:30:30follow it when crawling the feed but it
0:30:31would never update the source URL to
0:30:34point to a new one if it encountered a
0:30:36301 code which is the permanent redirect
0:30:38code this works on the web because on
0:30:41the web it's pretty common practice that
0:30:45if you like host a website at a certain
0:30:48domain name or a certain path and you
0:30:51change your URL scheme or you move hosts
0:30:53it's kind of known on the web that
0:30:55you're supposed to set up a redirect
0:30:56pretty much indefinitely that like it is
0:30:59a bad eye
0:31:00the to ever change URL without having a
0:31:02redirect in place because then you're
0:31:03losing all your like search engine
0:31:04ranking and your inbound links from
0:31:06other places and everything else like
0:31:07it's kind of understood as a best
0:31:09practice in the web that you don't break
0:31:11redirects ever so on the web a permanent
0:31:14redirect is much less important to be
0:31:15treated as such because you can just
0:31:18always crawl one of the URLs that
0:31:19something used to be at and if it's been
0:31:21properly maintained it will get you to
0:31:24where the feed is like when we were then
0:31:26where the new one is podcasting doesn't
0:31:30work that way in practice so all this
0:31:33time when I've been doing you know
0:31:35basically like treating this like the
0:31:37web where like I just kind of assumed
0:31:39that if I follow a redirect it'll always
0:31:40be there in podcast a lot of podcasters
0:31:44first of all aren't web programmers you
0:31:46know a lot of podcast producers and you
0:31:48know they come from like the media world
0:31:50there's also all sorts of podcast
0:31:54hosting and analytics and advertising
0:31:56platforms out there that all that all
0:31:59want to host your feed for you at their
0:32:02domain and are all selling their
0:32:04services quite successfully to big
0:32:06podcasters and the big podcasters to
0:32:10them their entire world is iTunes and
0:32:12with iTunes you don't have to maintain
0:32:15permanent redirects forever if you
0:32:16change your feet you can just tell
0:32:19iTunes what your new URL is and it will
0:32:22move for you for it's for itself and and
0:32:25for Apple podcast subscribers and then
0:32:28you don't have to think about it anymore
0:32:29so the concept of having permanent
0:32:33redirect setup is in practice not known
0:32:36or not practiced by most podcasters they
0:32:38are happy to move their feeds to anyone
0:32:41elses service anyone else's domain
0:32:43whatever new ad tracking insertion
0:32:46platform they're using this six month
0:32:48period they're they'll move it all the
0:32:50time and they don't consider what web
0:32:53programmers will consider you know is
0:32:54necessary for that so I could say here
0:32:57all that's as much as I want and try to
0:32:59blame them and say well you know this is
0:33:01your problem not mine but the reality is
0:33:04it becomes my problem it is definitely
0:33:07my problem and it's my and I'm the one
0:33:09who needs to fix it and find a solution
0:33:11because what happens is when a big
0:33:13podcast
0:33:14like about about a year ago this
0:33:15American life moved their feed and they
0:33:17broke the old redirect and I certainly
0:33:20had like 80,000 people telling me that
0:33:24their number one podcast was broken and
0:33:26overcast and this was bad simile it
0:33:29became my problem very much so at the
0:33:32time I didn't have any any kind of
0:33:35infrastructure in place to move
0:33:37subscribers between feeds in a way that
0:33:39wouldn't just break everything and this
0:33:42American life has another problem where
0:33:43they don't keep their back feed going
0:33:46like they they only keep the most recent
0:33:49handful of episodes in the feed once
0:33:51something is older than a few weeks old
0:33:52you can't download it anymore you have
0:33:54to I think I think they sell them or you
0:33:55can get them in their app or something
0:33:56but you can't download them out of the
0:33:58regular feed anymore
0:33:59so if I move people over to a new entry
0:34:03that doesn't have all those back catalog
0:34:05episodes for this American Life that's a
0:34:07pretty big problem especially for that
0:34:08show because it's so popular and a lot
0:34:11of times people will save save APIs ODEs
0:34:13for like months at a time like they'll
0:34:15save up a big back catalog so they can
0:34:17get to go back and realest in or gonna
0:34:18save it up for like long car trips
0:34:19whatever else so there's all these like
0:34:21very very fragile conditions in which I
0:34:23have to be very careful what I do to
0:34:25handle redirects if anything and my
0:34:28original plan up until now of just not
0:34:30handling them was breaking down pretty
0:34:32badly the driving factor this past week
0:34:35was that books bookcase was looted too
0:34:39the New York Times podcast the daily is
0:34:41very very popular the daily moved their
0:34:44feed overcast didn't handle didn't take
0:34:46the redirect and the old feed wasn't
0:34:48redirecting to the new one I was hearing
0:34:50about it from a lot of people and
0:34:52eventually we worked it out and and they
0:34:54had heard they arranged to to put that
0:34:56redirect in place so that was a
0:34:59temporary patch but ultimately this was
0:35:01kind of like one of the many wake-up
0:35:03calls I finally had it was like okay I
0:35:05need to handle redirects also like
0:35:09SoundCloud is falling apart and it seems
0:35:11like they're probably not long for this
0:35:12world so like and a lot of pockets were
0:35:15hosted there so there's maybe a lot of
0:35:16feed moves there and and there's so many
0:35:19popular shows that are moving to
0:35:20different ad insertion platforms now and
0:35:21changing their if you'd address again
0:35:23it's it's a big enough problem now that
0:35:25like any podcast
0:35:27crawling setup like this it has to have
0:35:30a way to have permanent redirects like
0:35:32that's just the that's just the
0:35:33environment now too many popular shows
0:35:35move too often you have to do it so what
0:35:39I've been working on for the last you
0:35:41know I don't know a week or so is that
0:35:43is permanent redirects and making it
0:35:46work and it's really not good like the
0:35:50way I do it is really not good but the
0:35:52only way I can do it without totally
0:35:54modifying my database schema and going
0:35:56through like sysadmin hell for weeks as
0:35:59I do that not to mention lots of costs
0:36:02associated with that and possible bug
0:36:05potential so I really don't want to do
0:36:06that so what I do now basically is I
0:36:09have a separate process from the
0:36:11crawlers because it's speaking of your
0:36:13old code my crawlers are are the only
0:36:17thing I have written and go and I
0:36:19haven't written really any go since so
0:36:21my ghost skills are very rusty and I
0:36:23look at the crawler code now and it's so
0:36:25complex because it was not only is it
0:36:28written in this language that I've used
0:36:29for nothing else so like my skills are
0:36:31dull but also it's at the first go
0:36:35program I ever wrote so it's not
0:36:36particularly great go code like it's
0:36:38like me learning the language and so
0:36:40like everything's in one big file and
0:36:42it's kind of all over the place and for
0:36:44me to track redirect there I would have
0:36:46to modify the go code and I've been
0:36:48trying to do that at first to solve a
0:36:50few other problems it's just like
0:36:51looking at this like I just want to set
0:36:53this on fire like I have no idea what
0:36:56this does I'm so scared so she goes like
0:36:57it mostly has worked for a long time and
0:37:00I don't want to touch it but so instead
0:37:04I made a separate process a separate
0:37:06process in PHP my comfort language I
0:37:09know it's like comfort food like it's
0:37:12it's not good for you but you know
0:37:14anyway so I made a PHP separate cue that
0:37:20just once a day checks feeds for
0:37:21redirects and if a feed is redirecting
0:37:23to the same place that is also an iTunes
0:37:26registered feed for more than I think
0:37:29two days it's a threshold at then it
0:37:32will take all the subscribers and
0:37:35basically create new entries for them in
0:37:39the new feed that
0:37:41their entries in the old feed and then
0:37:43delete the old feed description so to
0:37:45the user the only thing that appears to
0:37:47happen is all of a sudden the episodes
0:37:51for one of those shows that could that
0:37:53got moved
0:37:54they all just redownload for some reason
0:37:56everything else is preserved played
0:37:58unplayed states whether its start or not
0:38:01progress if you're partial this and
0:38:03that's all preserved that just gets re
0:38:05inserted and with the new IDs but you do
0:38:08have to redownload because the client
0:38:09sees them as new entries basically
0:38:12that's now in place there's now this
0:38:13queue that runs those things that's
0:38:15going through the backlog it took way
0:38:17too long for me to do this I'm glad I
0:38:19finally did it
0:38:20I wish I had a slightly more elegant
0:38:21solution that wouldn't require read
0:38:23downloading but that would just be a lot
0:38:26more overhead so I'm not gonna do that
0:38:28yet maybe down the road if it becomes a
0:38:30big problem and then like once I found
0:38:32like once I hacked I had something
0:38:34actually checking for 301 redirects and
0:38:36and for the new iTunes new feed URL tag
0:38:39which is inserted it's like what people
0:38:42who aren't familiar with podcast who
0:38:43just know web programming this would
0:38:45make you cry that like the way that you
0:38:47can redirect a feed for podcasts is you
0:38:51leave the old feed still there returning
0:38:54a 200 response code but you put an XML
0:38:56tag in the RSS feed that's iTunes : new
0:39:00feed URL and just leave that there for a
0:39:03few days and iTunes picks it up and
0:39:05moves your feed for you and then the old
0:39:08feed just can sit there not getting
0:39:10episodes added to it or can just get
0:39:12deleted and stop working like that's how
0:39:15like I'm telling you this is what I have
0:39:18to deal with again like the web
0:39:21programmer me when I started this whole
0:39:22thing is like I don't need to do that
0:39:23that's terrible no one's gonna really do
0:39:25that but no people really do it and at
0:39:27increasing frequency and yeah and so
0:39:28anyway once I had this redirect check in
0:39:30working I was able to see quite how many
0:39:34very popular shows have had redirects
0:39:37since 2014 when I started crawling them
0:39:40and it's a lot some of them were simple
0:39:43like moving from HTTP to HTTPS like that
0:39:47that's a very common one like all the
0:39:48relay shows did that lots of lots of
0:39:51popular shows have done that but a lot
0:39:53of them are just moving to different ad
0:39:54platforms and track
0:39:55platforms and insertion platforms and
0:39:57publishing platforms and no one hosts
0:39:59their own feed in podcasting it's yeah
0:40:02so it's it's a mess out there and so I
0:40:03had to deal with it even though I really
0:40:06didn't want to
0:40:07I was so opinionated about like I don't
0:40:09need to do this like that's it they
0:40:11should have redirects in place forever
0:40:13but that's not the reality and I had I
0:40:15had to you know adopted that because
0:40:18that's the understatement
0:40:19so yeah so occasionally you have to do
0:40:22things and do them on the double because
0:40:24other people weren't thinking about you
0:40:26but it's not his boss tell him to do it
0:40:27though he's his boss he's the one he got
0:40:29to the point is he got to delay doing it
0:40:31for a really long time because he didn't
0:40:33want that one very popular feeds
0:40:39redirect but it was saying like no one
0:40:41no one is forcing you to add an about
0:40:43screen that includes a car racing game
0:40:45to your to your thing you really don't
0:40:48have your display system no no one's
0:40:50making you support video podcasts if you
0:40:51don't want to no ones deciding you have
0:40:53to have a recipe manager and a to-do
0:40:55list inside it that's the type of thing
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0:41:18because that changes over time and you
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0:41:23calm and and I when I bought markers at
0:41:26Oregon in 2000 that was the last time I
0:41:28had to change my email address and tell
0:41:29anybody at that oh please I put your
0:41:30address book nobody ever likes that I
0:41:32also have hosted my own website at my
0:41:34own domain name since that time because
0:41:35web host change platforms change social
0:41:38networks change and it's it's always
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0:42:37hover get a domain name for your passion
0:42:42so back to ask ATG thankfully thankfully
0:42:47we have a quick one to round us out uh
0:42:49Stefan Kozlowski writes do you guys
0:42:52pronounce the command su do as su do or
0:42:58sudo and I will start by saying I have
0:43:01always pronounced it sudo and I
0:43:04understand that it stands for super user
0:43:07do so su do is probably the more
0:43:11academically correct answer but I've
0:43:13always pronounced it sudo to think about
0:43:16this question because I think I do both
0:43:20both out loud and both in my head
0:43:23depending on context that's the
0:43:25conclusion I came to by like tracing
0:43:27through the times that I have said it or
0:43:28thinking about it I think I I think I do
0:43:31both I don't know it's not a satisfying
0:43:32answer but I think good the reality I
0:43:34pronounce it wrong and I don't care I'm
0:43:37proud of it I say sudo and I know it's
0:43:40super user do I'm very aware of this
0:43:43however I don't care to me sudo is its
0:43:46own word and so it gets some
0:43:47pronunciation yeah I don't think that's
0:43:49wrong that's just one of two very common
0:43:51pronunciations like who's to say which
0:43:52is I don't even know if that does the
0:43:54less common one it may be for all I know
0:43:56it's the more common one
0:43:57it's a Linux thing it's definitely wrong
0:44:01there's always whatever you whatever
0:44:03everyone does with Linux a lot of people
0:44:05will say it's wrong well I don't know I
0:44:08think it's in the running for to being
0:44:10the more popular one because like you
0:44:12said it is a word PSE you do like that
0:44:14the fact that you know people just
0:44:17substitute a word they're noticing that
0:44:18was when I was talking about I was I was
0:44:20just saying like you know basically like
0:44:22conceptually in my head I read that as
0:44:24pseudo like I read it as a word that and
0:44:27I know what it means it's like being
0:44:29fluent in a language like I'm not
0:44:29thinking about like it's a component
0:44:31parts I'm thinking like oh I need to
0:44:33pseudo do this command like that is its
0:44:35own word in my head I don't think like
0:44:38oh I need to superuser do like when I
0:44:41make a directory I think Oh make Durer
0:44:45like I or mcdr like I think that in my
0:44:47head like as I could component parts so
0:44:50I don't like think about that is in I
0:44:52don't say like you know make Dyer its
0:44:54dur for directories so but pseudo to me
0:44:57like that has become its own word in my
0:45:00head so that's why I pronounce it the
0:45:01way I do I don't I don't care about the
0:45:03the component parts of it and how
0:45:04they're pronounced all right
0:45:07John tell me about your blacks black
0:45:08screen of death this could have been
0:45:11follow up and I'm trying to you know I
0:45:14think it's it has wandered a default and
0:45:16I was just like practically a weekly
0:45:18segment where I complain about my laptop
0:45:19in some way you know people gave me so
0:45:22much crap when I was complaining about
0:45:24my laptop's not systemic complaints
0:45:28these are specific complaints for the
0:45:29most part sometimes just updates unlike
0:45:32my life with the Mac with like the touch
0:45:34bar thing was not really a complaint
0:45:35about touch part just telling you like I
0:45:37tried to use it and it wasn't for me
0:45:38like it you know I mean so that's there
0:45:39but anyway this is and this this might
0:45:41not be a laptop bug but it's a situation
0:45:44I find myself in frequently and one of
0:45:48those things where I don't know where to
0:45:49blame it but it just it makes my overall
0:45:51experience with this thing worse I think
0:45:52I mentioned it before that so I've got
0:45:54this docking station and it's great when
0:45:57everything works well but sometimes it
0:45:59gets cranky when I undock it so undock
0:46:03and I go out you know all undock with it
0:46:04in clamshell mode and I'll go off to a
0:46:06meeting or something and then I'll
0:46:07arrive at the meeting open up my laptop
0:46:09and everything about it will work
0:46:10perfectly except for the screen is 100%
0:46:12black and I used to know that everything
0:46:15was working perfectly back when the
0:46:16touch bar was not in the you know the
0:46:18mode that I changed it to or it just
0:46:20shows the function keys all the time
0:46:21because I would unlock with touch ID or
0:46:24unlock by typing my password into the
0:46:25totally black screen and then I could
0:46:27command tab and I could see the touch
0:46:28bar changing as I command everything's
0:46:32working I come command tab
0:46:33I'm assuming the track that is working
0:46:34if I could see the mouse cursor here to
0:46:36be moving I could you know type keyboard
0:46:38commands that I know worked in the
0:46:40frontmost application you know and like
0:46:42I could if it if you could use it
0:46:43without seeing the screen it was all
0:46:45working for the screen was a hundred
0:46:46percent black and nothing I would do to
0:46:48that computer sitting there would make
0:46:50that screen not be black put it to sleep
0:46:52wake it up again and close the lid open
0:46:53it the only way I found to bring it back
0:46:56is a hardware way where I would use my
0:46:58little they have some little dongle
0:47:02thingy that goes in the side that gives
0:47:04you like a USB port an HDMI and a much
0:47:06other crap plug that in the side and
0:47:08then plug the the rooms monitor into the
0:47:13HDMI port and that would wake up it
0:47:16would first of all it would stop my
0:47:18machine would start projecting on the on
0:47:19the external screen but also would wake
0:47:21up the internal display all right so
0:47:23that's I've had this book really a long
0:47:25time and it's annoying sometimes I've
0:47:26had to leave the meeting room go back to
0:47:28my desk get my dog oh come back to the
0:47:30room plug it in plug in the HDMI monitor
0:47:31and then my thing was awake anyway I ran
0:47:34to this problem and I'm calling this the
0:47:35black screen of death even though it's
0:47:36not death it's like in limbo it's alive
0:47:38but blind this happened to me where I
0:47:42unplugged my thing because I was on hard
0:47:44to get home unplugged it and I needed to
0:47:46use my laptop at home and I got home and
0:47:49opened it up and sure enough black
0:47:50screen and I didn't have my little
0:47:53dongle because it was back at work so I
0:47:54couldn't do the one magic hardware thing
0:47:56that makes my screen but I'm back - I
0:47:58tried so many other things I tried SS
0:48:00aging into it from another machine
0:48:02I tried plugging in other things I tried
0:48:03getting out my very own Apple branded
0:48:05HDMI dongle and plugging it into my
0:48:07gaming monitor which is HDMI and turning
0:48:09everything on and that didn't wake up
0:48:11the screen in the end I had to hard
0:48:14reset the thing which really annoyed me
0:48:16that's why I spent like 20 minutes
0:48:18trying to bring this thing back because
0:48:19I was in the middle of a lot of stuff
0:48:21you might not support you might be
0:48:23surprised to hear that I had a lot of
0:48:24windows open I had a lot of things going
0:48:28on you know I just I had a lot of
0:48:31terminals a lot of shelves and no I
0:48:32don't use any one of the million things
0:48:34that can let me resume my shelf yes I'm
0:48:37sorry I'm disappointing all the people
0:48:39who love team x and screen and
0:48:41and all the other things to do that's
0:48:42right I also use none of those things I
0:48:44always have tons of terminal tabs and
0:48:45windows open and it's fine
0:48:46right anyway I was in or that I lost
0:48:49everything that I was working on and had
0:48:52to hard reset my computer who wanna
0:48:53start reset and the worst part is I'm
0:48:54not hardly saying it cuz it crashed I'm
0:48:56not hard resetting it because it's
0:48:57frozen it's not like everything was fine
0:49:00except the screen was a hundred percent
0:49:01black so this is really putting a damper
0:49:03this bug and the possibility that this
0:49:06bug can be there - when it happens it's
0:49:08kind of like the month thirteen is out
0:49:09of bounds thing where it's like
0:49:10everything is mostly working but there's
0:49:12some part of it that's not working that
0:49:14you feel like someone should notice so I
0:49:16you know I would like I think something
0:49:20in the operating system should be aware
0:49:21after a certain period of time that
0:49:23there is a no monitor attached and B the
0:49:25screen is entirely black and I don't
0:49:27think that's a sustainable state and the
0:49:29lid is open I think that set of things
0:49:32there should be some assertion in the
0:49:34operating system that says if no monitor
0:49:36is attached and the lid is open and
0:49:38you're awake but the screen but the
0:49:41screen is 100% black fix that like make
0:49:44it not be like that I'm hoping that's
0:49:46the thing that can detect and I don't
0:49:48know who to blame maybe I blame the
0:49:50docking station maybe it's an OS bug who
0:49:52knows but anyway I don't like laptops
0:49:54are you on High Sierra on this yes oh no
0:49:57no I'm not I'm run regular Sarah sorry
0:49:59okay so that sort of it probably isn't
0:50:01like a well I guess I just a noob OS bug
0:50:04at least footage not like CR was bug
0:50:05free either I don't I don't know what it
0:50:08is it's just my latest in a long line of
0:50:10infuriating sort of bugs on my laptop so
0:50:15I can assure you that this is not only
0:50:18not a bug that has been fixed in High
0:50:22Sierra but it is not unique to your
0:50:24laptop because my Marco book Pro that I
0:50:27use at work that exhibits this same
0:50:30behavior now I wouldn't say that it
0:50:31happens all the time I wouldn't even say
0:50:33that it happens terribly often but the
0:50:36only solution I had come up with for it
0:50:38was occasionally I can sleep it and then
0:50:42reopen it you know close the lid and
0:50:44reopen it and then sometimes it'll come
0:50:46back or like you said you know
0:50:48disconnect external monitors reconnect
0:50:50external monitors but just like you said
0:50:52additionally there are times I just have
0:50:54to
0:50:54just kill the machine and bring it back
0:50:55so this is a clamshell problem this is a
0:50:58software problem this is not a new
0:51:01MacBook Pro problem and that is very sad
0:51:03I mean it seems like there must be some
0:51:05hardware aspect to it because I don't
0:51:07think merely closing the lid and opening
0:51:09it I think it's the fact that you're
0:51:10attaching an external monitor and
0:51:11something about the I've attached a
0:51:13monitor please detect that it's there
0:51:14and start sending your video signals it
0:51:16oh you just yanked it out I have to
0:51:17handle that like it's it's related to
0:51:19the fact that the hardware configuration
0:51:22machine is changing like I've never seen
0:51:24it
0:51:24you know once the computer is working in
0:51:26isolation I'm not plugging anything into
0:51:28it I've never seen it happen there where
0:51:30I close the lid and open and the screen
0:51:31doesn't turn on so I don't know but yeah
0:51:34like the these type of problems very
0:51:37often waking from sleep problems it's
0:51:38not like that but I feel like waking
0:51:39from sleep is almost more explicable
0:51:41it's like well the computers not even
0:51:42awake and so like obviously it's not
0:51:45working this is the worst because it's
0:51:46it's so clearly so clear especially with
0:51:48a touch bar that everything is working
0:51:50just fine that the computer is running
0:51:52it just refuses to display anything on
0:51:54the screen and I find that infuriating I
0:51:56should also add since this is apparently
0:51:58the airing of grievances it is the
0:52:00holiday season after all I should add
0:52:02that my Marco Book Pro is now going to
0:52:06have to go in for service when I'm out
0:52:08over the holidays because it turns out
0:52:11if you plug in and remove what is the
0:52:13port on the side what is the thunderbolt
0:52:15but it's also known as mini displayport
0:52:19yeah thank you if you plug and unplug
0:52:20mini DisplayPort cables every single day
0:52:23all day every day
0:52:25turns out they start to fail over time
0:52:27so Monday when I got to the office I
0:52:30tried to plug in my two LG 4k monitors
0:52:32and one of them in particular wouldn't
0:52:35plug in for the longest time I would
0:52:38switch around cables I switched around
0:52:40you know where I was plugging them in it
0:52:42was it was not nothing I could do to get
0:52:44it could get it to work and then finally
0:52:47we I had a actually my head IT guy come
0:52:52over and look at it and he plugged in
0:52:54his Marco Book Pro and it worked no
0:52:56problem immediately unplugged it plugged
0:52:58it back in work no problem so it appears
0:53:01that either the graphics card is dying
0:53:03or the connectors are getting screwed up
0:53:07in some way shape or form so I hope
0:53:10Marco that in your beloved Marco book
0:53:11Pro that you are not often time often
0:53:13using the Thunderbolt ports because over
0:53:15time after a year or two after a couple
0:53:17of years you might find them failing so
0:53:19good luck yeah it's one of the things
0:53:21that the move to USBC made a lot better
0:53:24that USB see as far as I can tell so far
0:53:28the connection does wear out over time
0:53:30just like many of them do however it
0:53:33seems like the parts that wear out are
0:53:35mostly in the cable end and not in the
0:53:37port end so it is kind of annoying that
0:53:39your cable loosens up over time
0:53:41especially when it's your power cable to
0:53:42your new meant to your new MacBook Pro
0:53:44but it does seem like that's probably an
0:53:48easier fix long-term that you can
0:53:50probably just replace the cable and
0:53:51those conditions for USB C but the mini
0:53:55DisplayPort connector that then became a
0:53:56thunderbolt connector that's never been
0:53:58a good connector like you know one of
0:53:59the big problems with it is that the
0:54:01cables are kind of loose in there like
0:54:02there's nothing like holding them in
0:54:03really they can just very easily like
0:54:06slide out or get a little bit dislodged
0:54:08or a little bit like jaw sold and that
0:54:11yeah I will defend a lot of great things
0:54:13about the 2015 era retina MacBook Pro
0:54:16however the design of the thunderbolt
0:54:20port is not one yep so I kind of wish I
0:54:24had a thunderbolt 100 but one I'm sorry
0:54:26a touch bar one but then ain't never
0:54:29gonna happen my IT guy refuses to buy
0:54:32any touch bar MacBook Pros and maybe
0:54:35it's because he's smarter than me yeah
0:54:36well I mean think about it from the
0:54:38point of view of an IT manager at a
0:54:40company like a computer that seems to
0:54:44have a pretty high keyboard failure rate
0:54:47compared to most computers and and again
0:54:50if people who defend this keyboard even
0:54:52if that rate is 20% that's still really
0:54:55high for a computer that has only
0:54:57existed for a year if that's the kind of
0:54:59failure rate you see on a pool of these
0:55:02new computers and if buying them would
0:55:05have to would make you have to like
0:55:06rebuy a whole bunch of dongles or
0:55:09display things or projecting things or
0:55:11things like that for like the whole
0:55:12office you can totally understand why an
0:55:15IT manager would be like yeah that's not
0:55:18oh yeah that's not worth it like
0:55:19we can't we can't afford the down time
0:55:21for the keyboards that's a lot of work
0:55:22for the IT people to have to like you
0:55:25know get the pull those out of service
0:55:26from from the company when they when the
0:55:28keyboards break get them repaired put
0:55:30them back in the service like you know
0:55:32figure out things in the meantime like
0:55:33that's a huge burden on an IT staff and
0:55:36even even before all that you consider
0:55:38all the dongle stuff so that makes total
0:55:41sense like I totally get it and that's
0:55:42honestly that's probably why Apple still
0:55:45sells the 2015 model new in the Apple
0:55:48Store today they probably sell a ton of
0:55:50them to big corporate purchasers who
0:55:52just want what they've been buying for
0:55:54years because they know it's fine
0:55:56they're already equipped for and it's
0:55:57pretty reliable except when you have to
0:56:00replace your Thunderbolt port we are
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0:57:43rethink what your money can do we have
0:57:49somehow accidentally procrastinated for
0:57:52an hour and 20 minutes by my clock but
0:57:55we should probably talk about the iMac
0:57:57Pro and we for me I started to have a
0:58:01holiday party and made it through about
0:58:04a half a drink because I was very busy
0:58:06tonight so I'm sad to report ladies and
0:58:09gentlemen that this is not a holiday
0:58:10party for me and I'm going to have to
0:58:12endure this sober and I'm doing it for
0:58:14you the listener so all right guys tell
0:58:18me about what's going on what you have
0:58:20to endure this aren't you sitting in
0:58:21front of a 5k iMac right now I'm mostly
0:58:24giving you a hard time I am and sitting
0:58:25in front of a 5k iMac so you're an iMac
0:58:27buyer this is a computer that could
0:58:29potentially be for you you like this
0:58:31kind of computer I do I do I'm mostly
0:58:33giving you to a heart yeah don't you do
0:58:34a lot of video transcoding and buy all
0:58:36of Apple stuff in space gray you know
0:58:38the the I don't the sick thing about the
0:58:41iMac Pro is the thing that I think
0:58:43appeals most to me about it is the fact
0:58:45that it's Space Gray because I think
0:58:46that is so hot it's so ridiculous
0:58:48that'll be the first to tell you that is
0:58:50utterly truly ridiculous that the thing
0:58:53I'm most excited about is the color but
0:58:55oh my god it looks so good and those
0:58:56accessories look so good no III snark in
0:59:01if you're not a longtime ATP listener
0:59:02there I don't remember which episode it
0:59:05was you know and I probably won't
0:59:06remember to put in the show notes but it
0:59:08was early on in our run yeah well it was
0:59:10all of them but no early on in our run
0:59:11it just so happened that I knew we were
0:59:15going to be talking about the Mac Pro
0:59:16and I don't remember why because there
0:59:17was no news about it but we were gonna
0:59:19be talking about the Mac Pro and I made
0:59:21the mistake of bringing my drink
0:59:23upstairs with me in into the office
0:59:26while I recorded no I didn't spill it on
0:59:28anything but that part wasn't the
0:59:30mistake the mistake was that I also
0:59:32brought the bottle with me and by the
0:59:34end of that episode I had had quite the
0:59:36holiday party all by myself and so
0:59:39anyway yeah you it's very embarrassing
0:59:41and I and I won't actually I probably
0:59:42won't link it because I am embarrassed
0:59:44by it and I shouldn't have done it but
0:59:45you know it is what it is and you only
0:59:47once anyway the iMac prout does appeal
0:59:50to me we should we should do a kind of
0:59:51an overview in just a moment it does
0:59:53appeal to me I don't think I find it
0:59:55worth all of that money I'm not saying
0:59:58that it's an unreasonable price I'm not
0:59:59saying
0:59:59saying
1:00:00being that it should be lower I'm just
1:00:01saying I have a really nice iMac in
1:00:03front of me and yes I do transcode
1:00:06things a lot yes I am getting into video
1:00:07now but sitting here now I don't feel
1:00:12like I need a new computer which is
1:00:14usually stage one in case you buying a
1:00:16new computer so anyway Marco tell me
1:00:18about what this is what this iMac pro is
1:00:20all about we actually do but there's
1:00:22still a lot of big unknowns about it
1:00:24because as we record this it is well
1:00:26actually are they are they gonna launch
1:00:28it at 3:00 in the morning tonight oh I
1:00:30think you're right are we just gonna
1:00:30maybe I should start my holiday party I
1:00:32have to keep podcasting until the
1:00:34configurator goes live and I I really
1:00:37don't want to do that but that there
1:00:39would be there's something to be said
1:00:40for how funny that would be and I will
1:00:42go downstairs and get myself more water
1:00:44and buy bottle and we can do a holiday
1:00:47party if that's what it takes I I'm not
1:00:50staying up til 3:00 in the morning I'm
1:00:52us me and the listeners yeah oh I'm
1:00:54gonna because like the thing is like for
1:00:55me like the Christmas season is way too
1:00:57busy for me to buy a new desktop and set
1:01:01it up and move my stuff over and
1:01:03everything like I'm way way too busy for
1:01:05a while
1:01:06so if I just wait until the morning to
1:01:09order mine if I order one I mean I'm
1:01:12still telling myself if I said that I
1:01:16took pause but I don't want to ruin your
1:01:17flow so I just I just bit my tongue but
1:01:20you're gonna order one now it may not be
1:01:21tomorrow I will I believe that it may
1:01:23not be tomorrow but you're gonna order
1:01:24one I mean it's probably it's where
1:01:26we're gonna be at least eight in the
1:01:27morning like I'm not gonna wake up a
1:01:28three
1:01:29maybe I mean I might wait until 8:00 so
1:01:32anyway all this is to say at the moment
1:01:33that we're recording we don't know any
1:01:35of the pricing and the configuration
1:01:38options really like we know what options
1:01:41will be available roughly but we don't
1:01:43know if there are certain combinations
1:01:45that they will require we don't know
1:01:47some of the finer details of some of the
1:01:49options the so that the core counts are
1:01:53gonna be 8 10 14 and 18 but the 14 and
1:01:5718 aren't available until quote early
1:01:59next year we don't know what that means
1:02:00really that could mean in two weeks or
1:02:02that could mean in three months so
1:02:05there's a whole lot of unknowns and and
1:02:07yeah and the biggest thing is that we
1:02:08only know the base price at this moment
1:02:10we only know that it starts at $5,000
1:02:12and
1:02:13is 8-core one terabyte and I think 32
1:02:17things around which is a great like
1:02:19that's an awesome compete like that is
1:02:20my iMac but with twice the cores like my
1:02:23iMac is 30 gram you know it was the top
1:02:26CPU at the time I bought it which was in
1:02:282014 and and that was $4,300 or
1:02:34something like that at the time I think
1:02:36the top iMac is slightly cheaper now but
1:02:38it's like when you when you spec up an
1:02:41iMac to be one terabyte of SSD and 3232
1:02:45because of ram you're already getting
1:02:47about four thousand dollars like you're
1:02:49near that point and so for this to be
1:02:52eight cores starting at $5,000 and for
1:02:55it to be the zi online with ECC Ram
1:02:57workstation you yeah like way better GPU
1:03:00faster SSD like and a whole lot of extra
1:03:03stuff like am i reading correctly for
1:03:05like from the reviews that it comes with
1:03:07all three peripherals it comes with a
1:03:09trackpad keyboard and mouse it's so hard
1:03:11to tell from these early reviews because
1:03:13like you said about the pricing you also
1:03:14like Apple just you know gives you a
1:03:17bunch of stuff as I here you go they
1:03:18don't they don't say you know wouldn't
1:03:20even be possible to order it this way or
1:03:23would you have to like say yeah you can
1:03:25buy all these input devices but you only
1:03:27get to pick one you know to come for
1:03:29free with your with your iMac Pro this
1:03:32is why you're gonna win the bet you're
1:03:34gonna make me buy a whole second I might
1:03:36just get a black trackpad and a black
1:03:39mouse that's the real the real black tax
1:03:44whole second machine no more like $300
1:03:49extra yeah I lamented the 150 bucks or
1:03:51whatever was for the black book and this
1:03:53is a whole new world anyway so yeah so
1:03:58all those it to say pricing is still a
1:03:59big unknown for us for like all the
1:04:01details like the configuration that the
1:04:04reviewers all had was 10 core so it's
1:04:07one step up in the processor line from 8
1:04:09to 10 core and I believe it was was it
1:04:1164 gigs for one 128 bytes of RAM okay
1:04:14yeah so that's that's probably going to
1:04:16be a you know a $7,000 configuration
1:04:18yeah and the big the big sort of
1:04:20nonlinear price increases are always
1:04:22going to be 128 gigs of ram and 4
1:04:24terabyte SSD those are going to like
1:04:25as much as a car like I never like it's
1:04:29double the price of the of the size
1:04:30that's half as much nope it is not it is
1:04:32more no it's not yeah it's gonna be like
1:04:34you know one terabyte comes to that 2
1:04:36terabytes might be like you know plus
1:04:37400 and then 4 terabytes might be like
1:04:40plus 1200 it's gonna be like that kind
1:04:42of jump like yeah it might even be more
1:04:44than that because these are big and the
1:04:46interesting thing about these these
1:04:47computers and we knew this already but I
1:04:49think people are relearning it for the
1:04:50second time because we saw these
1:04:51machines the WDC like actually
1:04:53physically saw them mm-hmm and in my
1:04:55case touch them even though you weren't
1:04:56supposed to person but they're there's
1:05:03no upgrade ability in this this is a
1:05:05question we asked the person who's there
1:05:07like you know is the RAM Sarge and the
1:05:08Border's in a slots he said it's in
1:05:10slots but you can't get at them like
1:05:12there's no little door for you to
1:05:13upgrade the RAM there's like you you can
1:05:16figure this machine from Apple and you
1:05:17buy it and that's it now in theory you
1:05:21could like I fix it could probably find
1:05:22a way to open this thing up and take out
1:05:24the RAM and upgrade it like there's
1:05:25nothing really stopping you from doing
1:05:27it's not like it's locked with the key
1:05:29or whatever except for perhaps a secure
1:05:31boot boot thing which we'll get to in a
1:05:32minute but who knows how they're you
1:05:34know integrating that with their RAM but
1:05:35essentially there are no upgradable
1:05:38parts inside this thing that you are
1:05:42allowed to change or that you could
1:05:43bring it to an Apple store and say I'd
1:05:45like to buy more RAM can you put more
1:05:46RAM in this room the apples because they
1:05:47know it the RAM that you got is what you
1:05:49kind of same thing with upgrading to CPU
1:05:51or any sort of Oh stuff like that which
1:05:53if you're gonna have a machine that's
1:05:54totally sealed up this is the one to do
1:05:56it on because the iMac the whole point
1:05:58of it is it's all in one right and you
1:06:00know the Mac Pro is coming and that that
1:06:02that really highlights what we think
1:06:04will be a very important difference
1:06:06between the iMac Pro in the Mac Pro the
1:06:09iMac Pro has the freedom map to say 100%
1:06:12sealed box configure the way you wanted
1:06:14and that's it you know no doors no flaps
1:06:16no upgrading after the fact it's just
1:06:18the Machine you get is a machine you get
1:06:20leaving the paving the way for the Mac
1:06:23Pro to take the opposite choice so some
1:06:25people are kind of annoyed at that but I
1:06:27feel like it is a reasonably smart
1:06:30differentiation and differentiation
1:06:32between these two machines so it's clear
1:06:34to you why would I buy this one machine
1:06:35over the other it's like what you want
1:06:36if you want everything in one
1:06:37and beautiful and elegant and simple and
1:06:40clean and sealed up and done and done
1:06:43it's the iMac and if you want the other
1:06:45thing it's the Mac Pro well I mean it to
1:06:47be fair we don't actually know yet well
1:06:49had a Mac Pro will be upgradable way
1:06:52down but we're hoping I mean the the
1:06:54tube was slightly upgradable like Ram
1:06:59you can you could add Ram that's it you
1:07:02could swap out the SSD to I don't think
1:07:04anybody ever ever sold the SSDs
1:07:06separately yeah it was it wasn't like I
1:07:08think it was like they MDOT - whatever
1:07:10thing it wasn't entirely you know you
1:07:12can be goodbye so the whole point is it
1:07:13was you could open the case and pull
1:07:15things out of it whereas this for all we
1:07:16know there's like it's glued together
1:07:18like I don't even know how easy just
1:07:19even get inside this thing I mean it's
1:07:21probably like every other iMac like you
1:07:23know all the components appear to face
1:07:25the back but you can't open it from the
1:07:27back probably so you probably have to
1:07:29like remove the screen and glued on
1:07:33right right and yes oh sorry it's
1:07:35probably like magnets like the other one
1:07:37but anyway yeah it's probably very
1:07:38similar to the construction of the
1:07:4027-inch iMac today so you probably can
1:07:43get into it but you don't want to
1:07:45because it involves so much like surgery
1:07:48on the screen that laypeople really
1:07:51shouldn't do it because you will risk
1:07:53damaging things we're getting dust in
1:07:54there or whatever so it's something that
1:07:57like yeah like Apple can do it like
1:07:59their technicians can do it but you
1:08:01shouldn't it looks pretty clean inside
1:08:02from the pictures they have on Apple's
1:08:04website if you look inside there if the
1:08:06back came off in a reasonable way it's
1:08:08pretty nicely laid out the RAM is really
1:08:09easy to get to it's sitting right there
1:08:11in little dim slots you could pull it
1:08:13right out like it's got a nice little
1:08:14heat pipe arrangement but the central
1:08:16heat sink and the two fans and like it
1:08:18looks nice in there it looks like they
1:08:19you know sweated the details and made it
1:08:21look a nice on the inside even though
1:08:22nobody's ever gonna see that except for
1:08:24an Apple technician and you know some
1:08:26part of it breaks or something yeah but
1:08:28ultimately like I am very excited about
1:08:31this machine I was I was a little
1:08:33excited about it when it was announced
1:08:34this past summer but I'm even more
1:08:38excited now that we're getting
1:08:39performance numbers and that we're
1:08:41getting the first reviews that have been
1:08:42out the best review that I've seen so
1:08:44far is the mkbhd review he's had it for
1:08:47he said about a week and he's a hard
1:08:49user only he
1:08:50creates and produces very high-end video
1:08:53content so he's he's editing like high
1:08:55high bandwidth like high resolution
1:08:57video on this thing and and that's
1:08:59really that really pushes it one of the
1:09:01major concerns I had with the iMac Pro
1:09:03when we first heard about it was I
1:09:05believe we talked about it in our live
1:09:07show at everybody this past summer which
1:09:08my main concern was like how does it
1:09:12handle being under load because my my
1:09:14regular 5k iMac it's a very graceful
1:09:18machine until you really ask it to do
1:09:21something hard and then you hear
1:09:23annoying fan noise and the fan the
1:09:25family spins up and it's loud and it's
1:09:27it's just kind of ungraceful and a Mac
1:09:30Pro historically has not done that um
1:09:33you know Mac Pros usually are able to
1:09:36take pretty much any workload and still
1:09:38be dead silent or close enough to sound
1:09:40that you won't hear it in an average
1:09:42room and so I really missed that like
1:09:46going back to a consumer level product
1:09:48like the regular iMac or a laptop like
1:09:51when it's when it when you put under
1:09:53load and you hear the fan spinning I
1:09:54always kind of feel like yeah this
1:09:55really isn't made to do this very much
1:09:57and you know so anyway III heat and how
1:10:02it deals with heat is is a big question
1:10:04mark for me upgradability is kind of a
1:10:07known thing at this point like the
1:10:09laptops haven't haven't been
1:10:10meaningfully upgradable since 2012 the
1:10:14desktops you know the the only thing
1:10:16that's been upgradeable about the
1:10:17desktops anytime recently has been RAM
1:10:18and even that is slowly fading away and
1:10:21the rest of the lineup so really to me
1:10:25like the upgrade ability thing is it's
1:10:29it's certainly something it's
1:10:30significant it matters I think more for
1:10:34long term servicing costs than
1:10:37necessarily getting a good deal up front
1:10:39like in the olden days you'd be able to
1:10:41buy a macbook or whatever or a power
1:10:45book and go get third-party ram from
1:10:47crucial or owz or something like that
1:10:49and save a bunch of money on a high-end
1:10:51figuration by buying the parts yourself
1:10:52and putting them in from third parties
1:10:54those days are long gone for the entire
1:10:57lineup desktop to laptop like the only
1:10:59thing you can still do that for is
1:11:01Casey's iMac and you shouldn't because
1:11:04look what happened to Katie's iMac I was
1:11:06waiting for somebody to make that joke
1:11:07and prepared to make it myself the
1:11:09reason you shouldn't but like I think
1:11:11the second use case is just longevity is
1:11:13if you buy it then you're happy like you
1:11:14buy a 32 gig arrangement and you're
1:11:15happy and it turns out that this thing
1:11:17is so reliable and the screen just looks
1:11:19gorgeous year after year that you're the
1:11:20thing is five years old and you're like
1:11:22you know what this thing still does
1:11:23everything I needed to do but I could
1:11:26use a little bit more RAM because I
1:11:27thought 32 would be enough for me to do
1:11:29what I needed to do forever but the
1:11:31latest version of adobe's whatever sweet
1:11:32is just a ram monster and I would really
1:11:34like to have 64 and that's where you
1:11:36want the ability to say yeah I used it
1:11:38for five years for 32 and it was great
1:11:40to extend the life of this machine
1:11:41letting me upgraded to 64 and you
1:11:44totally could on this machine if you
1:11:45could get inside it in a reasonable way
1:11:47but you can't so if there was a little
1:11:49RAM door you would yank out the RAM five
1:11:51years later and put in some new RAM and
1:11:52same caveats about third-party RAM yeah
1:11:54the whole reason Apple doesn't want you
1:11:56doing that makes sense
1:11:57but it really does extend the life of
1:11:58the machines if you can add an SSD to a
1:12:01thing that had a spinning disk or at a
1:12:02faster SSD or expand the RAM and that's
1:12:04basically all you've been able to do
1:12:06with any Mac for the longest time if
1:12:07you've been able to do anything at all
1:12:09but it does extend the life of your
1:12:10machines I mean just my Mac Pro's I'll
1:12:12be the obvious example where so much of
1:12:14the insides have been swapped and
1:12:15rotated and just gotten better and
1:12:17better over time that extended life of
1:12:18the machine if it was still the way I
1:12:20bought it when it was new it would be
1:12:21completely unusable right now oh yeah
1:12:23but like you know but that was also in
1:12:26many ways a product of the times that it
1:12:28went through like the SSD transition is
1:12:31you know that's not gonna happen again
1:12:32right listen maybe we move to like those
1:12:35RAM computers yeah but even just the
1:12:36video card I've got so like three or
1:12:38four video cards in this thing each one
1:12:39faster than the next that's really
1:12:41extended the the you know the gaming
1:12:42life of the machine yeah it's true but
1:12:44so but anyway like I feel like like most
1:12:47of those days are over like there was a
1:12:48good section on connected this week
1:12:50where Steven talked about the video card
1:12:52upgrade ability of previous Mac pros and
1:12:54like usually like you know people who
1:12:57want upgradeable Mac pros like they
1:13:00usually think of it if they haven't done
1:13:01it before they think of it from like a
1:13:03PC builder perspective where if you're
1:13:05in the PC world but you know building
1:13:07Windows PCs you can like swap out video
1:13:09cards with all sorts of different great
1:13:11options all the time everything costs
1:13:13very little money relatively speaking
1:13:14and you have tons of great options when
1:13:16the Mac world you
1:13:18only ever been limited to like the
1:13:20handful of cards that actually supported
1:13:23the back and this has been true of many
1:13:25peripherals even when you even when the
1:13:27Mac Pros work the bore the tower style
1:13:28like what you have them but I used to
1:13:29have like you couldn't just put in any
1:13:32PCI Express card in there and have it
1:13:34work like many of them would but most of
1:13:37them wouldn't and or they or they would
1:13:39work partially it was more than you'd
1:13:41think you did more than you think of you
1:13:42at the flashmob because it's mostly just
1:13:44based on the architecture like the Apple
1:13:46makes drivers forward usually for the
1:13:47architecture not just for a very
1:13:49specific card so a lot more cards than
1:13:51would work anything but even if it was
1:13:52just a handful of cards it's not yeah
1:13:54you don't have the selection of a PC
1:13:56builder but to have the option to put a
1:13:58faster card in there even if you only
1:14:00have literally one choice there's only
1:14:02one choice that you can buy that is
1:14:03faster than your current one it's way
1:14:05better than zero choices and one of the
1:14:07things I've put in the notes here this
1:14:09is a tweet from bare feets the website
1:14:11that does lots of this kind of testing
1:14:12emphasizes this fact they were you know
1:14:15they have benchmarks like these are
1:14:16these are OpenCL benchmarks so there are
1:14:18things that run on the GPU of the iMac
1:14:21Pro and then they pitted it against a
1:14:252010 Mac Pro and the 2010 Mac Pro was
1:14:28faster why because the 2010 Mac Pro has
1:14:32a replaceable video card and like Margot
1:14:34said there's not a lot of choices for
1:14:35what you can put in the 2010 Mac Pro but
1:14:38there are a couple of them and one of
1:14:40them they were able to put in there was
1:14:42one that is that uses the same
1:14:44architecture as the GPU and the IMAX Pro
1:14:46so it same the Vega or every perhaps at
1:14:5064 so they put that card in and because
1:14:53it's the same architecture and because
1:14:55Mac OS has drivers for it because of the
1:14:58iMac pro it's able to use that card and
1:15:00just so happens to the card that they
1:15:02could fit in that gigantic 2010 Mac Pro
1:15:04tower that has tons of room for cooling
1:15:06and everything that card is just faster
1:15:07than the one that's in the iMac because
1:15:09the iMac is a slower card it's probably
1:15:11clocked slower because it's a more
1:15:13thermally compromised environment and so
1:15:15if what you care about is performance
1:15:17GPU performance in your 3d programmer
1:15:19and your open CL whatever program 2010
1:15:22Mac Pro is faster than an iMac Pro and I
1:15:25think this also highlights the role of
1:15:28the Mac Pro might play will the Mac Pro
1:15:30have an upgradeable GPU
1:15:32maybe maybe not but I think the most
1:15:33important thing for these type of
1:15:35computers for the Mac Pro or even for
1:15:37the iMac Pro is to be super fast when
1:15:40you're release which I think this this
1:15:41qualifies like it's got lots of course
1:15:42in the CPUs and if you have an
1:15:44application then you use them it will
1:15:45really make a difference in your life
1:15:47the storage on this Mac Pro is really
1:15:50really fast that the iMac pro is really
1:15:52fast it's faster than the laptops right
1:15:53and so that makes it the fastest Mac
1:15:56Apple has because the old Mac Pro is so
1:15:58old and it's got you know the GPU is
1:16:02plenty fast right but to fulfill its
1:16:04role as the iMac Pro I feel like next
1:16:08year there needs to be a much faster GPU
1:16:11in the iMac Pro or you know like they
1:16:12needs they need to update the internals
1:16:15of this iMac Pro on a reasonable basis
1:16:18fine they're not upgradeable fine but
1:16:20Apple itself has to upgrade them and
1:16:22revise them because otherwise it will
1:16:25just get more and more embarrassing that
1:16:26your 2010 Mac Pro every year you can buy
1:16:28a new GPU to get you you know a 2x speed
1:16:30boost and whatever it is that you're
1:16:31doing and the iMac pro year after year
1:16:34like the internals don't get upgraded
1:16:36and if the Mac Pro is there isn't
1:16:38upgradable same story technology marches
1:16:41on and at the very very top end Apple
1:16:44has to be committed to releasing
1:16:46computers that are competitive with the
1:16:48top end and then revising their
1:16:50computers to continue to be competitive
1:16:51and if they don't want to revise them
1:16:53then merely make the certain components
1:16:54upgradable and people will buy a PC Vega
1:16:58card that is faster than the one that
1:17:00they had before and flash it and throw
1:17:03it in there and it will work because the
1:17:04drivers work with every car in that
1:17:05architecture and I'll be happy that my
1:17:09biggest concern here is the thermals and
1:17:12I believe them when they say they've
1:17:15gotten this - they've gotten the iMac
1:17:18enclosure to cool the the up to 500 watt
1:17:21load that they are putting in here that
1:17:23it's designed for but it seems like
1:17:26there's not a lot of headroom like and
1:17:28this was this was exactly the problem
1:17:29they had with the 2013 cylinder Mac Pro
1:17:32you know Craig federighi famously said
1:17:34that they designs those into a thermal
1:17:35corner it seems like the 2013 Mac Pro
1:17:37was designed with just barely enough
1:17:40cooling power and even then it wasn't
1:17:43really quite enough because of the the
1:17:44way the dual GPUs got so hot
1:17:46with this seems like they went into it
1:17:49like you know John you mentioned last
1:17:51thing we talked about this that like
1:17:52they went into the design brief of this
1:17:54seemingly with like fit Pro workstation
1:17:58grade components into the iMac enclosure
1:18:00well why like why couldn't it be a
1:18:03little bit differently shaped why
1:18:04couldn't it be designed an enclosure
1:18:06that supports program components like
1:18:08the reverse exactly and so because of
1:18:11that because they they went in with the
1:18:13apparent goal or requirement of fit this
1:18:17into the iMac case that was never
1:18:19designed for this amount of thermal load
1:18:20I mean the this case was designed in
1:18:242012 or was launched in 2012 and it was
1:18:27launched with the first well with the
1:18:28second-generation 27-inch iMac even the
1:18:31retina one was not designed for this
1:18:33like it is a this was before the 5k we
1:18:36we have shoved so much stuff into the
1:18:38exact same sized enclosure that in 2012
1:18:41they probably were not thinking of that
1:18:43when they designed the the shape and
1:18:45ventilation and and size and everything
1:18:48else with that in mind with the thermals
1:18:51as a severely limiting factor probably
1:18:54here I worried that on two fronts number
1:18:58one I worried like how much did they
1:19:00have to clock down the GPU and the CPUs
1:19:03to fit here and that gets to what you
1:19:07were saying of like if they're on the
1:19:08ragged edge of their thing if they've
1:19:10had to down clock things there are
1:19:12basically that they couldn't support the
1:19:14cooling and the only way they could get
1:19:16at things to fit is they had to say well
1:19:17that's just slightly down clock
1:19:18everything that and that I don't know if
1:19:19that's true that's just been a rumor for
1:19:21a while that like basically all the
1:19:22components are running it you know
1:19:24slower speeds from the GPUs and the CPUs
1:19:27and the RAM and every part of the system
1:19:29not a lot down clock but just a little
1:19:30bit and the only reason you do that is
1:19:32because you couldn't you couldn't cool
1:19:35them running at their their full speed
1:19:37and that I mean maybe that that's a
1:19:39compromise for like hey this is a slim
1:19:41computer it's all in one you don't have
1:19:42a big box you don't have a big thing or
1:19:43whatever I don't think it's unreasonable
1:19:45but it does you know optimistically say
1:19:49this now further emphasizes why you
1:19:52might want the upcoming Mac Pro because
1:19:54presumably that one will not have to
1:19:57down clock its components and so it
1:19:59they will therefore be faster and have
1:20:01more Headroom and everything so and that
1:20:02gets to your point Marco about if they
1:20:04had to down lock things that you're
1:20:06concerned like about all the same things
1:20:08about the twenty twelve about
1:20:09reliability and about noise and so it
1:20:12could be argued that the twenty thirteen
1:20:13MacPro the trash can the privileged
1:20:16noise above for reliability like it was
1:20:19very quiet all the time but maybe it
1:20:20should have been a little bit more noisy
1:20:21because there was lots of our reading
1:20:23problems with the GPUs right so maybe
1:20:25they made a different choice here that's
1:20:26one thing that I found lacking all the
1:20:28reviews is a rigorous testing of of the
1:20:31noise I mean they people gave their
1:20:34subjective you know reviews it or ever
1:20:35but I'm looking for someone who's like a
1:20:36fanatic loner then like I am about fan
1:20:39noise yeah and I wonder too like the
1:20:42reliability that that's not a small
1:20:43point you know because nothing in here
1:20:46is really serviceable because even Apple
1:20:49getting to it is is challenging I'm you
1:20:52know taking off the screen probably on
1:20:53everything and because they're all
1:20:55expensive custom components like this is
1:20:58not a machine that I would want to own
1:21:01out of warranty very long and I
1:21:04certainly would never buy one out of
1:21:05warranty and I would probably try to not
1:21:07sell it out of warranty because I worry
1:21:12that if it's operating at so close to
1:21:15the thermal limits of this enclosure
1:21:17because this enclosure wasn't ever
1:21:18designed for this it's it's similar to a
1:21:21laptop where like laptops often run like
1:21:23pretty warm if you push them like all
1:21:25the time and laptops tend not to last as
1:21:28long they tend to have reliability
1:21:29problems or components break or you have
1:21:31like heat fatigue and your GPU falls off
1:21:33or things like that like there's all
1:21:34sorts of problems with laptops with just
1:21:36things that run too hot because they're
1:21:38they have such constrain enclosures this
1:21:41is basically a giant workstation laptop
1:21:43in a big screen like in in the way that
1:21:46like it is clearly very thermally
1:21:49constrained the old Mac Pro towers and
1:21:52and even the trashcan Mac Pro those had
1:21:54a lot of headroom for most
1:21:56configurations the main problem the
1:21:58trashcan had was if you actually stress
1:22:01the GPUs that would cause a problem if
1:22:05you just stressed the CPU is fine
1:22:06because that that was it was designed
1:22:08with the kind of asymmetric triangle of
1:22:10heatsink in the middle there it was
1:22:12designed to have one very
1:22:13hot side before the CPU and two kind of
1:22:15hot sides which were the GPUs and as
1:22:17long as the kind of hot sides didn't get
1:22:19super hot it was fine but unfortunately
1:22:23that's not how people work anymore and
1:22:24they sold it as a GPU workstation which
1:22:26is kind of a problem so and but I think
1:22:30it could have been done as it was as
1:22:33quietly as it was if they just made a
1:22:35little bit bigger the main problem with
1:22:37the trash cam Mac Pro I think is
1:22:39probably just they wanted to make it
1:22:40small and they succeeded
1:22:43it was very impressively small but
1:22:45that's something that like nobody was
1:22:46really asking for and instead they've
1:22:48made it unreliable if you stress the
1:22:50GPUs anyway with this they feel like
1:22:52they've been the same thing with it
1:22:53they've they've they've kept it super
1:22:55thin and on the edges just like the
1:22:57current one and and the back of its
1:22:59pretty small too and they've kept the
1:23:01same enclosure but why nobody was asking
1:23:03for that and it has severely constrained
1:23:05them didn't even put that many more
1:23:07events like the vents are bigger but
1:23:09like the back of us is not covered with
1:23:10vents in places where the regular ones
1:23:12aren't they hid the vents behind the leg
1:23:13just like they always do so it looks
1:23:15clean from the back and that isn't it
1:23:17like not only are they keeping the case
1:23:18the same which you know presumably has
1:23:20big advantages in terms of cooling you
1:23:22don't have to come up with a whole new
1:23:23case design you don't have to come up
1:23:24with a whole new set of machines to
1:23:26carve out your case like it's just
1:23:27different some different slotting and
1:23:29the thing and you know whatever I don't
1:23:30know if that's actually as the biggest
1:23:32savings that as it might seem to be but
1:23:34there's something to be said for for you
1:23:36know keeping something's the same but
1:23:38they could have made the entire back of
1:23:41this thing like a giant cheese grater
1:23:42and that would certainly allow more air
1:23:44flow into and out of this thing and
1:23:46would have allowed you to have bigger
1:23:47lazier slower spinnings fans instead of
1:23:49two relatively fast ones pushing all the
1:23:52air out of the central thing and pulling
1:23:54all the air in through these little
1:23:55slits right so it's all very elegant
1:23:57looking and everything I mean and we
1:24:00don't you know we don't know where we
1:24:01are we're worrying more than anything
1:24:03else we're not saying this is there's
1:24:04going to be thermal problems even the
1:24:06down clocking thing is just something
1:24:08I've read there's a rumor and I haven't
1:24:09actually seen anyone pull out the the
1:24:11speeds for all the components and say
1:24:13here are the speeds for the components
1:24:14and if you put these things in a PC you
1:24:16would never collect them down like this
1:24:18if you had adequate cooling like so we
1:24:19don't know but but that gets to the
1:24:22heart of what you're talking about for
1:24:23like the reason you pay for all these
1:24:24expensive components eons and
1:24:26and all that other stuff is for the
1:24:28reliability factor if the reliability
1:24:30factor is undercut by the by the
1:24:32thermals in the form factor then that
1:24:34makes this a less compelling purchase
1:24:37right like I don't I don't want my
1:24:39professional workstation you know five
1:24:42thousand and up dollar computer to be
1:24:44operating very close to its thermal
1:24:47limits from day one because especially
1:24:49since I can't service anything because
1:24:51what that tells me is I don't think this
1:24:54is going to last as long as a tower and
1:24:56my current iMac I think has similar
1:24:58issues I think that I think that just
1:25:00inherent in the iMac design that like
1:25:02when you constrain things with thermals
1:25:04things don't last reliably as long as
1:25:07simple as that
1:25:07that's been the case for all computer
1:25:09hardware forever when you can give them
1:25:11more thermal Headroom they last longer
1:25:13and they run more reliably and they've
1:25:16run more gracefully under load and it's
1:25:18important to say what you said which is
1:25:19like we still don't know we haven't used
1:25:21this yet we none of us have won we
1:25:23haven't used it and the reviews have not
1:25:24been very clear about you know load and
1:25:27thermals and noise and everything else
1:25:28but that is a that is a major concern
1:25:31for me at least that they cram all the
1:25:33stuff into a case that was never
1:25:35designed to handle it and even though
1:25:36they did a lot of work on the cooling
1:25:38system and redesigning the internals and
1:25:40everything it was still a case that was
1:25:43not designed for a 500 watt workstation
1:25:45great components inside so that's my
1:25:47main concern is like is this really
1:25:49going to last and as I mentioned a few
1:25:50months ago I think I'm not sure I want
1:25:53to spend $6,000 on a great computer that
1:25:57is gonna be really flaky in three years
1:25:59you'll just sell it before then anyway
1:26:01so maybe but I don't so that stops that
1:26:03often I mean look I'm still using my
1:26:052014 iMac now and so I really only seen
1:26:10the reviews of this I really want one
1:26:12I've really really do because I really
1:26:16want a speed upgrade I do so much
1:26:18parallel work that would benefit from
1:26:20those new cores so so much I really want
1:26:23the black trackpad would probably
1:26:27benefit from both the faster disks and
1:26:30the well I don't know if they've had
1:26:31this or faster and random success I
1:26:32haven't seen that but like I like I like
1:26:34the this subsystem I think is getting
1:26:35short shrift here because first of all
1:26:37the dis subsystem in the
1:26:39I think the 2016-2017 s was much faster
1:26:42than it was before people don't you know
1:26:44for a large data transfers like if you
1:26:46know for if you're doing like video or
1:26:47something like that and again I don't
1:26:48know how it is for random access with a
1:26:50bunch of small files and stuff but I
1:26:51love seeing stuff like that because
1:26:53people don't think oh it's got an SSD
1:26:54and they think SSD equals SSD equals SSD
1:26:57but these get faster and part of the
1:26:59advantages of buying expensive for a
1:27:01hardware is it should have the fastest
1:27:03as the the fastest interface and so the
1:27:05numbers coming out of this is like three
1:27:07gigs per second read and write sustained
1:27:09through the internal storage and that's
1:27:11great that is better than that's better
1:27:13than KC's a little MacBook adorable
1:27:16right a lot better and that's exactly
1:27:18they both have s's these are they the
1:27:20same speed they are not right that's
1:27:21what I want out of a pro machine and
1:27:23that's you know this machine for like
1:27:24processing 8k video and stuff like that
1:27:27that's a lot of data to move on and off
1:27:28the disk into and out of RAM and so you
1:27:31know all thumbs up on that that that's
1:27:35one of the things attracting me to the
1:27:36machine the reason I think that for so
1:27:38many applications like the very fastest
1:27:40Mac that Apple sells maybe won't make
1:27:43everything that you do faster especially
1:27:44if you don't take advantage of the
1:27:45multiple cores but you know if you do
1:27:48stuff that it uses lots of disks
1:27:50bandwidth even if you don't care about
1:27:53the CPU cores to the GPU this is the
1:27:55best disk machine if you just do stuff
1:27:57with GPUs this is far in a way you're
1:27:59gonna be the fastest GPU even if you
1:28:00don't care about the cores and you don't
1:28:01care about the disk like there's a lot
1:28:03to like even if you're not gonna use
1:28:05every aspect of this computer and yeah
1:28:06you have to pay for the other aspects
1:28:08too which is the reason people get
1:28:10cranky like I just want the good GPU I
1:28:12don't need Zeon's I don't need all of
1:28:14those stuff sucks well you get it all
1:28:15right is expensive it's just the way it
1:28:17is but having to pay for it all to get
1:28:20like a good GPU is way better than
1:28:22literally having no option except to buy
1:28:24a 2010 Mac Pro and a third-party in
1:28:28there yeah and the final thing I worry
1:28:31about here before we before anybody has
1:28:33one is is having this much heat going to
1:28:38be a problem for the screen you know the
1:28:42this this iMac was designed in 2012 when
1:28:45the components behind it were you know
1:28:4785 watt to 100 watt load probably now it
1:28:50can be up to 500 watt load
1:28:52is having that amount of heat right up
1:28:55against the back of the LCD panel going
1:28:58to be a problem for the longevity and
1:29:00quality of the LCD panel like are you
1:29:02gonna develop like a splotch in like the
1:29:06right quadrant near the middle where the
1:29:08processor is on the back like I don't
1:29:11know like how do LCDs handle very high
1:29:15heat being you know generated on a
1:29:18component that is stuck to the back of
1:29:20them for three years these are the kind
1:29:22of thing I'm worried about like this is
1:29:24like I'm so excited about this machine
1:29:25and I'm probably gonna buy at least one
1:29:27but I don't know like these are problems
1:29:30that I wouldn't worry about if it was a
1:29:32tower and I intend to buy the tower when
1:29:35that comes out to like the only reason
1:29:37I'm even talking about this now is
1:29:38because TIFF wants me to buy this so
1:29:41that way I can give it to her when I get
1:29:43the tower so that's probably what I'm
1:29:46going to do but it's hard not to think
1:29:49about those concerns when I went like
1:29:52I've been a little bit burned by IMAX in
1:29:55the past and I've had such great
1:29:57experiences with towers you know I'm
1:29:59surprised that you're you're harping on
1:30:01the thermal stuff so much because it
1:30:04seems to me like Apple has got to know
1:30:07what the thermal requirements for this
1:30:09thing are and with the with the the
1:30:12trashcan yes they design themselves into
1:30:15a corner in that they didn't have a lot
1:30:16of headroom which is what you said
1:30:17before but it's not like it was broken
1:30:20the moment to chipped and so well I
1:30:23don't think this is gonna be any
1:30:24different
1:30:25I really don't and having seen it very
1:30:27briefly I saw it you know when we were
1:30:31at WABC
1:30:32as did John and my record recollection
1:30:34of that that brief window of time I
1:30:36spent with it was that I could hear the
1:30:38fans even despite the fact that it was
1:30:40in a very loud demo room and they said
1:30:42that the fans were screaming
1:30:44deliberately because it was a very early
1:30:46pre-release model and they just you know
1:30:48wanted to crank the fans up to you know
1:30:5011 to make sure that whatever they were
1:30:52demoing on-screen which I don't even
1:30:53remember anymore you know didn't cause
1:30:55any problems and those fans I'm sorry to
1:30:58report gentlemen my recollection were
1:31:00they were loud now that doesn't mean
1:31:01they were gonna be loud always that
1:31:03doesn't mean they're gonna be loud every
1:31:04time you hit you know coming
1:31:05Dhar and xcode but it certainly seemed
1:31:09like it was capable of moving a whole
1:31:11lot of air and you you very what could
1:31:14be right I mean obviously all three of
1:31:15us are just pontificating at the moment
1:31:17but I would be really surprised if we
1:31:19see widespread thermal issues with this
1:31:21thing I mean it has been extensively
1:31:23redesigned on the inside specifically to
1:31:25avoid that very problem but so but like
1:31:27so is the trash can like and that's
1:31:29exactly what it had was maybe not from
1:31:30day one but a GPU failures due to heat
1:31:33right and so like that was that is that
1:31:36was the the major and I think the only
1:31:39sort of systemic hardware problem with
1:31:42the trashcans and marco is sitting there
1:31:43right now in front of a computer that he
1:31:45says runs the GPU too hot and his isn't
1:31:48even a pro so there's some reason to
1:31:50believe that Apple doesn't have the
1:31:54cooling stuff licked for stuff stuck to
1:31:56the back of a monitor even if it is not
1:31:57really hot stuff like this so I think it
1:31:59is reasonable to be concerned given the
1:32:02recent history about this and you know
1:32:04just worried like we don't know we'll
1:32:06find out right but there's the problem
1:32:08with this is the only real way to find
1:32:10that out is to be like me and be like
1:32:12I'm not gonna buy one of these for the
1:32:13first two years just to find out what
1:32:15the deal is but you can't you know you
1:32:16can't do that if you want one a day one
1:32:18you kind of have to pull the trigger and
1:32:20say whether like are you gonna buy it or
1:32:23you're not gonna buy it and that's where
1:32:24the worry comes in you won't have time
1:32:26if you're gonna buy it
1:32:27when it comes out within the first month
1:32:29or two you you won't have time to see in
1:32:31six months does everyone fire all their
1:32:32GPUs or not so you just kind of gotta
1:32:34cross your fingers or you know be
1:32:37prepared to sell it to somebody else or
1:32:39you know do what Marc was gonna do which
1:32:41may end up working out which is Marco
1:32:43gets the computer he stresses all the
1:32:45CPU cores encoding mp3s and compiling
1:32:48stuff and then he passes off to TIFF and
1:32:50she stresses GPU believes the CPU alone
1:32:53because she's just playing games on it
1:32:54mm-hmm
1:32:54and doing Photoshop stuff because also
1:32:56all GPU stuff yeah so you'll you'll
1:32:59spread the heat so you get a splotch on
1:33:01one side of the screen and then a spot
1:33:05yeah III really hope that it's good
1:33:08because all the reviews are very very
1:33:11positive and these are still as you know
1:33:13these are very early reviews but they're
1:33:15very promising and in quite how
1:33:17universally positive they
1:33:19and man skylake Zeon's are awesome
1:33:24according to these reviews like this is
1:33:26this is a big deal on the processor
1:33:29front because the ten core version that
1:33:32they've seated the reviewers seems to
1:33:35have 10 cores without a significant
1:33:37single core performance penalty like in
1:33:40in the previous generation little
1:33:41penalties all orden it's like it's
1:33:44slightly slower single core than the
1:33:46newest iMac at the top top spec but
1:33:49barely
1:33:50and it's obviously way faster and
1:33:53multi-threaded and so like the real
1:33:54promises put is supposedly that the 18
1:33:56also doesn't take a small because it
1:33:58used to be like yeah you take a little
1:34:00hit but them and you go up to whatever
1:34:01the maximum core con is you take a
1:34:02pretty significant hit in a single core
1:34:04and so the theory of these is that the
1:34:0610 core takes a little hit the 18 core
1:34:08will be similar performance to the 10
1:34:10core and single thread so it's like
1:34:12you're not you don't have to make this
1:34:13horrible choice between well if I want
1:34:16awesome performance in my parallel tasks
1:34:17I have to give up the single you just
1:34:19give up a tiny bit and it doesn't get
1:34:21worse as you go up in core we'll see if
1:34:22that's true but that's that's the that's
1:34:23the pitch the main concerns for most
1:34:26people here when they see this our price
1:34:29and lack of upgrade ability and those
1:34:31are very valid concerns but it's a very
1:34:33very good value for what you get for
1:34:36workstation parts like a lot of people
1:34:38look at the pro line as john said
1:34:39earlier because they want like a really
1:34:42good GPU for gaming se but that's never
1:34:45been with the Mac Pro has been very good
1:34:46at you could you could do that with it
1:34:48but it was a pretty inefficient way to
1:34:49do that
1:34:50you know price-wise and some and
1:34:52sometimes even performance wise you know
1:34:54you can get like GPUs that are pretty
1:34:56decent for gaming but that's not why
1:34:59they're selling them here and they don't
1:35:01expect people to buy it for that reason
1:35:02and when you compare it to the price of
1:35:05just building a gaming PC which John
1:35:07should have done years ago it's you know
1:35:09not even close and PC people and and Mac
1:35:13people who just want to play games look
1:35:15at this and say look I can build a
1:35:16gaming PC for way less money and that's
1:35:17true but you wouldn't put a Xeon in it
1:35:19and you wouldn't have like a wonderful
1:35:21apple 5k display in front of it and and
1:35:23you wouldn't have ECC Ram and
1:35:26workstation class other stuff and yeah
1:35:28I'd like the workstation class SSD like
1:35:29you wouldn't have all that stuff so when
1:35:33you
1:35:33actually go to like Dell or HP or
1:35:35somebody and spec out workstation grade
1:35:38components in a workstation that match
1:35:40the components in this that are actually
1:35:41like a Zeon with the same core count on
1:35:44a workstation GPU and workstation great
1:35:46SSD that's super fast if you can even
1:35:48get them to give you one it's actually
1:35:49pretty competitively priced for from
1:35:52what we know so far again we don't know
1:35:53the pricing at the upgrades yet but like
1:35:54the base price and what you get in the
1:35:55base model that's actually pretty
1:35:57reasonably priced it seems if you are
1:36:00looking at and if you spec up an iMac as
1:36:01I said like if you spec up a regular
1:36:03iMac into this territory of performance
1:36:05and capacity and everything you're
1:36:07already getting into about 4000 so to
1:36:09get like you know double the cores four
1:36:11five thousand is not unreasonable I
1:36:14don't think in addition to all the other
1:36:15upgrades so value I think from what we
1:36:19know so far it's probably fine lack of
1:36:22upgrade ability is a big thing but I
1:36:24think this is just the era in which we
1:36:26live now I think the reality our laptops
1:36:29again have been upgradable for four
1:36:30years for five years for most people if
1:36:32they haven't been upgradable
1:36:33meaningfully if at all and this is just
1:36:36the world we live in now and you know
1:36:37the reality is upgrades have been
1:36:39getting fewer and fewer they've been
1:36:42getting increasingly problematic like
1:36:45Casey has with his RAM because as things
1:36:49get super advanced they also tend to get
1:36:51more picky and more specialized and it's
1:36:52harder to find and make their party
1:36:54stuff that actually works look how long
1:36:56it takes people to make third-party
1:36:57things for like the the custom Apple SSD
1:36:59modules and a lot of laptops and and
1:37:01many of the recent desktops you know so
1:37:04like it's just things are even more
1:37:06advanced more specialized more
1:37:07integrated so I think the era of upgrade
1:37:10ability is really pretty much over for
1:37:13most computer things and I say this not
1:37:16happily because I always did that I
1:37:19participated very heavily in that I
1:37:20would always like you know buy my
1:37:23laptops with like base configuration and
1:37:25then spec them up with third-party parts
1:37:26to save money and to get you know bigger
1:37:28capacities and stuff and upgrade down
1:37:30the road with an SSD to make it faster
1:37:32and everything and that was a great time
1:37:34for a long time but I think the time is
1:37:36over you know the technology has moved
1:37:38on the market has moved on I think very
1:37:41few people really even would do that
1:37:44anymore even if they could and
1:37:47additionally now you can't so so it kind
1:37:50of closes the door on that and I think
1:37:52rather than hoping to go back to the
1:37:54time where you could buy John's Mac Pro
1:37:56in 2008 and keep it running all this
1:37:58time with just occasional upgrades of
1:38:00relatively inexpensive parts we're not
1:38:03going back to that time like we can't
1:38:05let the parts now or to specialize too
1:38:07good even John's computer you could
1:38:09never upgrade the processors you could
1:38:11ever upgrade the motherboard make it you
1:38:12know faster bus or anything like you
1:38:14just can't do that well you can but only
1:38:18within a range of like the three that
1:38:20were available at that time but you
1:38:22can't put in a new Xeon into your
1:38:25motherboard until it changes the socket
1:38:27like every two years yeah there was
1:38:29there was a long stretch of though where
1:38:30they kept the socket the same way it's
1:38:31not my model year I think well maybe
1:38:33actually was the 2009 someone recently
1:38:35posted a YouTube video I think they were
1:38:37doing in 2009 and they just upgraded the
1:38:39heck out of it to basically the fastest
1:38:40CPUs that still fit in the socket and
1:38:42all the other stuff fast and you know it
1:38:44wasn't super impressive but it was
1:38:45pretty neat it was mostly interesting
1:38:46just to watch exactly what it takes to
1:38:48do that if I can find the link I'll I'll
1:38:50throw it in the notes but but yeah
1:38:51you're right like eventually they change
1:38:52the stock and then you're you're out of
1:38:53that business or even just like you know
1:38:55the new ones require a certain type of
1:38:57bus speed or RAM type or Northbridge
1:38:59that yours doesn't have like stuff like
1:39:00that like there's always like the
1:39:02requirements change even if the socket
1:39:04doesn't change usually you can't
1:39:06meaningfully upgrade your processor
1:39:07after after after so efforts being sold
1:39:10you know and so like the error of
1:39:12upgradability has been fading for a long
1:39:14time and I think it's very well over now
1:39:18it's very very clearly over and so
1:39:20rather than hoping to go back to a time
1:39:23that we're never going to go back to a
1:39:25more productive approach now would just
1:39:27be like figure out how to operate in
1:39:29this new environment so and and base
1:39:31your purchases accordingly so you know
1:39:34if you're concerned about running the
1:39:36same computer for 10 years well you're
1:39:38gonna take a big risk on that you know
1:39:39they it might break after year five and
1:39:41require repair that is gonna be more
1:39:43than it's worth or it won't even be
1:39:44available anymore so like my approach to
1:39:48this is I have just gotten accustomed to
1:39:51selling computers after three years of
1:39:54using the more sometimes less
1:39:56you know I buy Apple care from concerned
1:39:59about service costs
1:40:00I don't buy it on phones as I mentioned
1:40:02because that's not use not for me but
1:40:04you know for max I sometimes do buy
1:40:07depending on pricing and concerns at the
1:40:09time once the Mac is out of Apple care
1:40:12coverage I don't want it anymore so I
1:40:14try to sell it before that it is
1:40:17currently I'm using my iMac does that
1:40:19just left its warranty and this is very
1:40:21unusual for me I don't usually do this
1:40:23but the new world where nothing is
1:40:26upgradeable might require you to either
1:40:29buy less perfect and less expensive gear
1:40:34more frequently than you used to and or
1:40:37get used to selling it which is not
1:40:41great it's not fun and it's not
1:40:42particularly profitable that's but but
1:40:45like you know you don't have to run
1:40:47everything into the ground necessarily
1:40:48if you want super high-end stuff the old
1:40:51way was buy something high and upgraded
1:40:53every 18 months
1:40:54you know until something better came out
1:40:56that you could upgrade the whole thing
1:40:57to the new way is you can't do that
1:41:00anymore
1:41:00you can just buy something new every
1:41:02three years or two years or four years
1:41:04and sell via button while it's still
1:41:07worth something it's this isn't a great
1:41:10solution for everybody but we don't have
1:41:13any choice like the world of
1:41:14upgradability is gone for for Macs and
1:41:17even many pcs so that world isn't is
1:41:20beyond us now so it's it's worth rather
1:41:23than dwelling on this too much and
1:41:25trying to fight this fight forever it's
1:41:28worth just figuring out like how can you
1:41:30operate in the new world it's coming
1:41:32back for the Mac Pro though even if it's
1:41:34just GPU upgrade ability I'm holding
1:41:36that hope you know we we again we still
1:41:38don't know anything about the Mac Pro
1:41:39because the GPU I mean it's not just
1:41:43important for me like the GPU is the I
1:41:45think the most critical just because
1:41:47GPUs get so much better year of year
1:41:49because the because of the inherent
1:41:50parallelism of the task that all they
1:41:52can basically you know as soon as a
1:41:53shrink they can fit more execution units
1:41:56and because the problem is so parallel
1:41:57like you actually get a win for that so
1:42:00they are still on that crazy path word
1:42:01you know year after year they just get
1:42:03they get faster roughly in pace with the
1:42:06density with transistor density there's
1:42:08a little bit of a
1:42:09problem with RAM and bandwidth and stuff
1:42:11like that but in general they like their
1:42:14speed increases year over year are so
1:42:15big that if you are not on that train if
1:42:17you can't participate in that train and
1:42:19you're doing something that is GPU
1:42:20intensive even if it's not gaming
1:42:22whatever maybe something GPU intensive
1:42:23involving video or whatever it's like
1:42:26you have to throw out the whole machine
1:42:27because eventually you know two years
1:42:29later the GPUs are four times as fast
1:42:31and you're just left in the dust so you
1:42:32have to be able to upgrade the GPU so
1:42:34please Apple make a machine where you
1:42:37can upgrade the GPU just one just one
1:42:39make it really expensive but yeah you
1:42:41gotta do it please I mean I'll just
1:42:43point out that when Apple had the Mac
1:42:45Pro roundtable and they announced that a
1:42:47new Mac Pro will exist some time not in
1:42:492017 they never said upgradable they
1:42:53said modular I know that's a very
1:42:55different thing I'm just hoping I'm just
1:42:57holding out hope I'm not it's not
1:42:58founded on anything other than like then
1:43:01just process of elimination of like how
1:43:04could you differentiate from the iMac
1:43:05Pro yeah the screen will be separate so
1:43:08that's that's the modular part right it
1:43:11could be upgradable it could be it could
1:43:14some part of it I'm just I'm trying I'm
1:43:16trying to my hopes up because this is
1:43:18still Apple and modern Apple at that and
1:43:21so like the chances of it being that
1:43:25upgradable if at all I I would not
1:43:29consider that a sure thing like if
1:43:31you're looking at the iMac Pro and
1:43:32you're thinking oh I want to hold out
1:43:34for the Mac Pro because it'll be
1:43:34upgradable I would not consider that a
1:43:37safe assumption it might be upgradable
1:43:39but modular simply means like you will
1:43:42probably be able to configure it with
1:43:44lots of different configurations up
1:43:45front like the iMac Pro comes with one
1:43:48CPU and one GPU and they're both you
1:43:52know within a certain range of options
1:43:53here maybe the Mac Pro will come will
1:43:56let you pick two CPUs or two GPUs or one
1:43:59CPU and three GPUs I don't know like
1:44:02that that's modular it doesn't mean any
1:44:05of this stuff is upgradable necessarily
1:44:07it might be upgradable but we have no
1:44:09indication that it will be and sure it's
1:44:12I would certainly not bet on it but
1:44:14anyway the other point is that with the
1:44:17Mac Pro we don't actually know when it's
1:44:19coming all Apple said was not in 2017
1:44:23it might be 2018 it could arrive the
1:44:25first day of 2018 so soon 2017 ends any
1:44:29day could be MacPro day yeah New Year's
1:44:31Day in the next decade any day could be
1:44:34Mac from yeah or it could come out in
1:44:362025 yep or it could come out never they
1:44:40could just change your mind say you know
1:44:41what actually we we're not gonna do it
1:44:43anymore like it's it's not even a sure
1:44:44thing that's going to exist what it
1:44:46means is that every day every day you
1:44:47wake up in 2018 and later could be Mac
1:44:50Pro day this is like KC's doom like
1:44:54daily worrying every week the mag Pearl
1:44:58will be announced and released speaking
1:45:00we know it's like we're we're all
1:45:01waiting for WABC and if they miss next
1:45:03year then we're waiting for next year's
1:45:04WWC you know like so we do have some
1:45:06thing to hang our hat on yeah but like
1:45:09the the Mac Pro could come New Year's
1:45:11Day or it could come in June or it could
1:45:14come in December or could come in 2018
1:45:17like so for anybody deciding whether to
1:45:20buy an iMac Pro if you're at all on the
1:45:23fence about whether you might want to
1:45:25Mac Pro instead yeah just just buy it
1:45:28and sell like Marco well yeah because
1:45:30it's like you don't really know when
1:45:32that's coming or even again you don't
1:45:34even really know if the Mac Pro is
1:45:36coming like yes apples had they're
1:45:38working on it but things could change
1:45:40over time you never know like it's not
1:45:42it until it's actually out you can't
1:45:44guarantee that it will be available like
1:45:46you can't guarantee this thing will
1:45:47exist and because we don't know anything
1:45:50about it or even when or if it's coming
1:45:52out then I think if you are really
1:45:55tempted by the iMac Pro and you're not
1:45:58patient and you're you know and you you
1:45:59need to buy something soon and you
1:46:02really can't wait until June just to see
1:46:04if it'll comes out by then then you know
1:46:07this isn't a bad option at this I have a
1:46:10feeling my prediction here what's going
1:46:12to happen here
1:46:13the iMac Pro is probably going to be so
1:46:16good and it's probably going to satisfy
1:46:18so many Pro needs that when the Mac Pro
1:46:21does finally come out it's going to sell
1:46:24really badly and then Apple will use
1:46:28that as justification to really finally
1:46:31kill it I I expect the next
1:46:35MacPro to be a single release product
1:46:38line I don't expect it to ever get
1:46:39another update after its initial release
1:46:41because I don't think it's going to sell
1:46:44well and I say that not happily because
1:46:46I want that computer but the iMac Pro I
1:46:49think is going to solve so many Pro
1:46:52needs for so many people possibly even
1:46:55me it's going to be good enough it's
1:46:58also like and the timing of this is also
1:47:00going to exacerbate this where people
1:47:03who have been dying for a high-end Mac
1:47:05Pro update for the last three years
1:47:08they're gonna be like a lot a lot of
1:47:11that demand is gonna go to the iMac Pro
1:47:12simply because it's out first and so
1:47:16then when the Mac Pro comes out with
1:47:17probably the same generation components
1:47:20at least the same generation processor
1:47:21maybe GPUs will have a small update by
1:47:23then but like when the Mac Pro comes out
1:47:25say in six months with the same
1:47:26generation stuff at a higher price point
1:47:28after so many people have had six months
1:47:32to just buy the iMac instead I really
1:47:35don't think it's gonna sell very well
1:47:36well the 8k screen will be a big draw
1:47:39that Y had to see honestly like I do
1:47:42wonder like if they're gonna do an 8k
1:47:43screen because they all they said was
1:47:45they were doing a pro display they
1:47:46didn't say what size or anything about a
1:47:48more optimistic about upgradable GPUs
1:47:50then how about the aka screen but we'll
1:47:52see yeah so but like we don't so all
1:47:54this is to say like if you're true if
1:47:57you think I'm up buying this but you are
1:47:59making an assumption about the next Mac
1:48:01Pro really questioned that assumption
1:48:04like are you really like first of all
1:48:07can you just wait and see if you can
1:48:08wait and see wait and see but you don't
1:48:11know how long the way that way it's
1:48:12going to be and and then secondly like
1:48:15is what you're waiting for actually
1:48:17going to happen do we actually know that
1:48:19is it likely to happen have they said
1:48:21anything about it like and chances are
1:48:23the answer to all those things as we
1:48:25don't know or no ultimately I have a
1:48:27feeling this is the new Mac Pro in
1:48:30practice like the weather they release
1:48:32to me next summer that nobody buys or
1:48:33not it's a different story but I think
1:48:35we're going to look back on this point
1:48:37in Apple history when we're all even
1:48:39older man in in a few years on this
1:48:42podcast hopefully talking about I
1:48:44remember when the only when I might Pro
1:48:45came out and when the Mac Pro became an
1:48:47iMac basically like
1:48:48I think this is the new line of Mac Pros
1:48:52for the long term I don't think that's
1:48:55necessarily a bad thing it might not be
1:48:57we have a lot more to discuss about this
1:48:59but we have gone long and we have an
1:49:02interesting holiday schedule coming up
1:49:03very very soon so I think we should
1:49:05probably just stop here and we will talk
1:49:08next week about the press tour with this
1:49:10and we'll talk next week about the new
1:49:13interesting hardware and encryption sort
1:49:16of things
1:49:17what is it the t2 chip is that right
1:49:19it's all sorts of cool stuff in there
1:49:20yeah so we have we have plenty more to
1:49:23say and as much as I joke I'm actually
1:49:25pretty interested to talk about some of
1:49:27this stuff so we will save that for next
1:49:29week thank you to our sponsors this week
1:49:31betterment hover and fracture and we
1:49:33will see you next week even as it was
1:49:43accidental accidental
1:49:50research Marco and Casey wouldn't let
1:49:52him cuz it was accidentally was
1:49:57accidental but you can find the show
1:50:00notes at ADP CAS pyl ISS so that's Casey
1:50:14less and a are Co a RM ante Marco Arment
1:50:20SI r AC Syracuse
1:50:38so Casey do you want us to talk even
1:50:40more about the Mac Pro about the Mac Pro
1:50:43know about the iMac Pro and whatever
1:50:45that's fine if you look at like you know
1:50:47what this iMac Pro is versus what the
1:50:502013 Mac Pro was and technically still
1:50:54is this is a Mac Pro it just happens to
1:50:57have a screen glued to the front of it
1:50:58but like it's really no less upgradable
1:51:02than the 2013 Mac Pro was it's way
1:51:04faster in every way it has more options
1:51:07bigger you know it's and it supports
1:51:10desktop retina correctly I think rent
1:51:12Redmond SSD upgrade I think it's not
1:51:14really more an S is the upgrade that's a
1:51:16lot like it was so easy to take it was
1:51:19so easy to take the top off that of the
1:51:20trashcan it comes right off just a
1:51:21little loop comes right off and right
1:51:23there in front of you totally reachable
1:51:25is the the SSD and the the RAM that's
1:51:28was the SSD actually see so many sure
1:51:30it's just it was just on the outside one
1:51:32of the boards you just yank it out of
1:51:34the slot oh yeah they do saw one yeah
1:51:37Mac Pro 2013 at this point I would do
1:51:39that for my for my wife's iMac I wish I
1:51:44could upgrade the SSD right now because
1:51:45I would pay for a two terabyte one it's
1:51:48$1,200 by third parties no this is third
1:51:55party this is from ODBC that's that's
1:51:57for the Mac Pro though I'm assuming it's
1:51:59not the same thing in the in the iMac no
1:52:01you're right in the iMac its are very
1:52:02different but like anyway you know for
1:52:04all intents and purposes like if Apple
1:52:06came out and said this is the Mac Pro
1:52:09now like if they'd if they didn't pre
1:52:11announced the existence of a new modular
1:52:13one next year or not this year we would
1:52:15grumble for a few weeks about how it
1:52:18wasn't have gradable I would grumble
1:52:19forever yeah I was gonna say a few weeks
1:52:22you know forever no matter what they
1:52:24really know the reason the reason I
1:52:26would grumble forever hasn't have
1:52:27anything to do with almost anything we
1:52:29discussed except for one part the fact
1:52:30that things might be down o'clock
1:52:32because the whole point of the top line
1:52:34of the computer is to be the fastest as
1:52:35it can be and so don't take the world's
1:52:36fastest parts and then down clock them
1:52:38right that's that's the biggest thing
1:52:40you need to have a world's fastest Mac
1:52:43that is not intentionally hobbled by
1:52:45some stupidity now if they change the
1:52:47iMac
1:52:47to not do that and to run all the parts
1:52:50at their maximum speed to get the
1:52:51highest Bend parts from all the
1:52:53manufacturers right and run them at
1:52:55their high bin speed then yeah I would
1:52:58be less crumbly but if this specific one
1:53:00with its room or down clock parts that
1:53:02cannot be your top-of-the-line computer
1:53:04because it's so it's it's like it's like
1:53:06you know this is this is our
1:53:08top-of-the-line car it's you know it's
1:53:09the the the Acura NSX right but we've
1:53:13detuned the engine by putting a
1:53:15restrictive exhaust on it so we've cut
1:53:17off one hundred horsepower that's just
1:53:18sitting there like what are you what are
1:53:20you even doing but you could make that
1:53:22argument for everything though you can
1:53:24make that argument for any car everyone
1:53:26every freaking car is an aftermarket
1:53:27exhaust okay a car car's a bad example
1:53:30but but for silicon parts like they're
1:53:32been to a certain clock speed and the
1:53:34more expensive ones are the ones that
1:53:35can go faster right and to not run them
1:53:39at at their top speed or to by slower
1:53:42speed chips because you can't cool them
1:53:44you've made a bad top-end computer then
1:53:46like you're leaving money on the table
1:53:48like you're charging enough money that
1:53:50you could put in the top bin part but
1:53:52instead you buy the slower you're worse
1:53:54you buy the top bin one but don't run it
1:53:57at its maximum clock speed that is just
1:53:59in embarrassment you can't do that you
1:54:00gotta have a fastest computer with all
1:54:03the fastest stuff that's the whole point
1:54:04of the top of your line is to be the top
1:54:06of your line I I think you're getting a
1:54:09little overly worked up if if some if
1:54:12some GPU is running at 90% of its
1:54:15maximum capacity who cares where you
1:54:18leave that 10% therefore who cares it's
1:54:21still infinitely better people who
1:54:24people who want the very fastest
1:54:25computer and are willing to pay for it
1:54:26that's who cares that is but by
1:54:28definition John that is the fastest
1:54:30computer this is all ball because it's
1:54:32hypothetical but like in this
1:54:34hypothetical world that is the fastest
1:54:36computer that Apple sells there is no
1:54:38other discussion to be had yeah I know
1:54:40but like but it's not it's you know what
1:54:43I mean like it's like saying whatever
1:54:45Mac Apple if the fastest computer sold
1:54:47was the adorable it's like but that is
1:54:48the fast you would know that it is
1:54:49possible to make a faster one by doing
1:54:52obvious things right
1:54:53do you enjoy your PC then like what do
1:54:56you know I'm showing this like because
1:54:58the role of it is to be the top
1:55:01you read my case for the true MacPro
1:55:02successor like this is the whole the
1:55:04whole point of the your top-of-the-line
1:55:05computer right I mean I guess yeah I I'm
1:55:08not arguing that there should be a top
1:55:10of line computer I'm not arguing that it
1:55:11should be really damn fast but if you're
1:55:13but if you're worried about a processor
1:55:15being 4 gigahertz instead of 4.1 like
1:55:17who cares it's still people who buy this
1:55:21computer care that's ok it's like it's
1:55:23because I'm not saying like oh you have
1:55:24to do something magical to make it
1:55:25faster than everybody else but like
1:55:27don't take a part that runs at 4.1 and
1:55:30run it for why like what why oh we had
1:55:33to do that to fit into thermal envelope
1:55:34and it gets back to a Margo they're
1:55:35talking about who's asking you to fit it
1:55:37in the skinny case versus who is asking
1:55:40you to get the fastest everywhere
1:55:41goodbye people buy a whole new computers
1:55:43for a 10% speed bump to things that they
1:55:44do right they say my computer is too
1:55:47slow if I get 10 to 20 percent
1:55:49improvement on this it makes a
1:55:50difference in my workday in my you know
1:55:52compile cycle in my render time em or
1:55:54whatever right they'll buy a whole new
1:55:56computer for a double-digit percentage
1:55:58speed increase and you're saying I'm
1:55:59willing to leave double-digit speed
1:56:01ingress on the table so I can fit it
1:56:03into a skinny case it's not asking for
1:56:04that so that's why I'm saying I would
1:56:05grumble forever about this because it is
1:56:07a wrongheaded thing to say we're going
1:56:09to make the fastest computer we can for
1:56:11our most demanding users but we're gonna
1:56:13do a super obvious thing that makes it
1:56:14slower in some small way so you're at
1:56:19you keep asking who cares I'm telling
1:56:20you who cares mean you don't care but I
1:56:22care