The Accidental Tech Podcast

252: Any Day Could Be Mac Pro Day

 

  I've got a problem oh yeah having [TS]

  uncomfortable thoughts about jeep [TS]

  wranglers oh you just need to come up [TS]

  here where it's cold and it'll convince [TS]

  you not to buy he got only half a car [TS]

  it's like thirty degrees here and [TS]

  snowing right now I don't wanna hear [TS]

  your lip about how we don't have winter [TS]

  you just want to be driving around with [TS]

  no roof and no doors no roof no doors no [TS]

  stability no quality no safety yeah [TS]

  definitely no safety it's got a roll [TS]

  cage for chrissakes how you gonna tell [TS]

  me no safe yeah so if you get t-boned in [TS]

  that I'm sure the roll cage will save [TS]

  you the doors well oh wait yeah there's [TS]

  a reason they had to add a roll cage [TS]

  because it rolls over if you like [TS]

  breathe on funny oh come on that's what [TS]

  stability controls for this computer [TS]

  solve us from physics anyway I want it I [TS]

  think I want a Wrangler and that's [TS]

  probably a problem nate'd let her go far [TS]

  so save me for myself of all the [TS]

  vehicles that you have lusted after for [TS]

  a week here and there I think a Wrangler [TS]

  is actually one of the less offensive [TS]

  ones it's pretty offensive it's still [TS]

  not a good vehicle it's either that or [TS]

  go far so John what would you have me [TS]

  have between a Wrangler and a Golf R [TS]

  easy go hard no contest yeah if though [TS]

  if those are your choices I'd go with [TS]

  John on that yeah those are the only two [TS]

  choices it's not it's not a choice at [TS]

  all I mean a Wrangler I think is a [TS]

  better choice than your weird Cadillac [TS]

  rectangle thing and your SUV dreams but [TS]

  I don't I think I think the Cadillac is [TS]

  better than the Wrangler to like I'm [TS]

  trying to think of a worse car and all [TS]

  I'm coming up with is one of those giant [TS]

  four-door luxury pickup trucks yeah well [TS]

  but at least those have a little more [TS]

  function than a Wrangler no it's about [TS]

  the same they're both they're both [TS]

  ridiculous things also if it's just that [TS]

  reminds me demure oh did a review of [TS]

  what was it the g65 an AMG G 65 I think [TS]

  that's right I might have that wrong so [TS]

  it's a twin-turbo v12 G Wagon and I [TS]

  believe it's pronounced wagon [TS]

  so we did a video on the guoguan and he [TS]

  got it gets better every time I say it [TS]

  he did a video on the guoguan and he [TS]

  hated it okay so fine [TS]

  all right so how about this I I don't [TS]

  have the money for a [TS]

  Quadrifoglio but how about that or Golf [TS]

  R or Wrangler what would you have John [TS]

  Quadrifoglio of the go far even though [TS]

  it's uglier [TS]

  I seen him in real life now I saw a [TS]

  white one the other day and I thought of [TS]

  you I say it does not look good in white [TS]

  holy shit it doesn't look good in any [TS]

  color but like this I've seen enough now [TS]

  that I know it's not just like oh maybe [TS]

  it looks weird in pictures but it looks [TS]

  good in person I don't like it anywhere [TS]

  I don't like pictures and I like it in a [TS]

  box I don't like it with a fox John I [TS]

  love you but you are so wrong about this [TS]

  no I just don't like how that car looks [TS]

  but it's a good car if for while it's [TS]

  working [TS]

  we don't even know maybe like the [TS]

  reliability could be fine it's too new [TS]

  like this is the new Alpha but we'll say [TS]

  no it's not look here's a here's your [TS]

  new rule if you're going to get [TS]

  something fun and fast unless it is made [TS]

  by a Japanese company Lisa yeah well [TS]

  what is fun and fast it's made by [TS]

  Japanese company that's also at least [TS]

  mildly affordable so like the Toyota [TS]

  burro would be it's not that it's not [TS]

  fast you know you got a GTR which is too [TS]

  much money and that's it that's all you [TS]

  got maybe NSX is fun and fast it's [TS]

  unaffordable it wasn't one of your [TS]

  criteria just you're gonna lease it [TS]

  you're at least least the NSX it'll be [TS]

  come on alright let's say even though [TS]

  this is over my budget let's say for the [TS]

  sake of discussion 50 grand [TS]

  so for 50 grand what do you get that's [TS]

  Japanese fun and fast I rest my case I [TS]

  take in Miata fast fun hard fast [TS]

  I mean look a Wrangler is not fast [TS]

  either but it but you you find fun for [TS]

  other reasons [TS]

  to me a Miata would would be a better [TS]

  version of that and plenty fun yeah [TS]

  that's a good midlife crisis car for you [TS]

  after your second child is is in third [TS]

  grade but no I'm serious so I mean my [TS]

  options are Civic type-r which means I [TS]

  would need to install a paper bag in the [TS]

  car to wear over my head every time I [TS]

  drove it no they won't let you buy one [TS]

  you're over 25 I've heard the type r is [TS]

  phenomenal to drive but it is so [TS]

  unabashedly truly hideous to look at you [TS]

  get it in black maybe try to hide all [TS]

  the wings and ducks and scoop [TS]

  that's the answers just take the wing [TS]

  off like do a wing delete if you will [TS]

  it's all wing there is do you think the [TS]

  wing off they just left with the chassis [TS]

  that's it the entire body that car is a [TS]

  wing or a scoop there I would imagine [TS]

  there must be some kind of like like you [TS]

  know marketing differentiation here at [TS]

  work we're like they have to make the [TS]

  Civic are so hideous that it won't [TS]

  detract from sales of the NSX from older [TS]

  people with taste maybe but the regular [TS]

  Civic is kind of gross to like I think [TS]

  they just had a styling a styling fart [TS]

  on this whole generation great [TS]

  generation of civics like ever they're [TS]

  getting great reviews people say they're [TS]

  great cars yeah so much so that a lot of [TS]

  the best parts of them are showing up in [TS]

  the Accord but the styling isn't as [TS]

  rough styling is rough [TS]

  I mean if you think about all kidding [TS]

  aside I mean you can get a Wrangler spec [TS]

  to like 40 or 45 grand or something like [TS]

  that which is truly absurd you can get a [TS]

  Wrangler spec before I would never [TS]

  getting into the pickup truck territory [TS]

  Jeep Wrangler great that makes perfect [TS]

  sense [TS]

  good job I wonder how I thought I was [TS]

  trying to move on now brought myself [TS]

  right someone the Chairman even pointed [TS]

  out like the Wrangler with like leather [TS]

  straps for door handles but but [TS]

  television screens on the backs of the [TS]

  seats like that is a car that has lost [TS]

  its way weight honest question are the [TS]

  back seats in a Wrangler like or is [TS]

  there actually enough depth there that [TS]

  is where you got to keep your 17 friends [TS]

  but you go surfing Wow they go in the [TS]

  back seats quote-unquote their seats [TS]

  even in the coop their seats [TS]

  no front seats aren't seats is like you [TS]

  know a bunch of boards with it with a [TS]

  piece of vinyl stretched across it when [TS]

  was the last time you were in a Wrangler [TS]

  John I'm so over you right now so anyone [TS]

  ever really entering or they just on it [TS]

  why do you do this to me why do this why [TS]

  you so mean [TS]

  see nobody everyone see here we talk [TS]

  about fancy snow tires on my fancy Tesla [TS]

  but everybody wants to hear you talk [TS]

  about your terrible car ideas of getting [TS]

  this cheap crappy car I have like an [TS]

  intervention of Casey Casey's like two [TS]

  suggestible when it comes to like his he [TS]

  has like a car shaped hole in his life [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  maybe this will fill it and [TS]

  and just anything like Jeep Wrangler [TS]

  like this yeah and so I don't know just [TS]

  like he runs across the wrong ad or the [TS]

  wrong YouTube video and just like you [TS]

  know I should get a Winnebago next thing [TS]

  is gonna be like why not he just saw our [TS]

  house to afford it my parents briefly [TS]

  had like a little tiny which calm RV and [TS]

  I am still a little upset that they got [TS]

  rid of it [TS]

  I was joking but there it is yep that's [TS]

  that's the seed that and that seed will [TS]

  grow in your mind until maybe three [TS]

  years from now twenty one thousand forty [TS]

  one thousand two hundred thirty-five [TS]

  dollars for new Wrangler holy schnikeys [TS]

  what just why at that point why that [TS]

  there are so many better things in every [TS]

  way tell me what tell me what for okay [TS]

  to Honda Civics I would rather drive to [TS]

  mondo civics than then around like one [TS]

  to one in a different color like you [TS]

  know just alternate the excitement of [TS]

  having two cars that you rotate raid one [TS]

  for cars if one car has a repair it's so [TS]

  much less than if one you could drive [TS]

  both of them to the ocean at the same [TS]

  time I don't think I would need to go [TS]

  that quite them you've never actually [TS]

  need to go apparently the magic keyboard [TS]

  with numeric keypad is bendy and I guess [TS]

  that's something we're supposed to be [TS]

  upset by because I tell you what when I [TS]

  get a new keyboard the first thing I do [TS]

  is a bend test to make sure it's not [TS]

  bendy no not not bendy you didn't read [TS]

  the link [TS]

  no not bendy like if you put it in your [TS]

  pocket and sit on it it'll Bend like an [TS]

  iPhone 6 but there's two kinds of [TS]

  reports one kind is I open up the box on [TS]

  my brand-new magic keyboard with a [TS]

  numeric keypad which is a hell of a [TS]

  product name I don't know if that's the [TS]

  official name but you know what I'm [TS]

  talking about and I took it out of the [TS]

  box and put it down on the desk in front [TS]

  of me and it's bent like it's warped it [TS]

  wobbles like you know what I mean so [TS]

  that's that's no good that's just like [TS]

  you know manufacturing defect or sure [TS]

  maybe it got bent in transport or [TS]

  something like that but the second [TS]

  strain of this kind of story is I got a [TS]

  new magic keyboard take it out of the [TS]

  box with [TS]

  typed on it for a week and apparently [TS]

  the force of my typing bent it in the [TS]

  middle if you're gonna put only little [TS]

  pads or feet on four corners or very [TS]

  long keyboard and it's so thin that it [TS]

  bends in the middle from the force of [TS]

  typing that is a pretty big failure for [TS]

  the functionality of a keyboard now your [TS]

  beloved magic keyboard that you have [TS]

  without a numeric keyboard and maybe is [TS]

  has a short enough wheelbase so to speak [TS]

  that having little feets on the corners [TS]

  doesn't make it bend in the middle or [TS]

  maybe you should just not look at your [TS]

  keyboard to see if it's bent in the [TS]

  middle but anyway we'll link to this MJ [TS]

  size web page that has a collection of [TS]

  all of this information I don't know if [TS]

  it's a manufacturing defect kind of [TS]

  makes me feel better it's like oh [TS]

  they'll fix the manufacturing defect but [TS]

  if it was actually the case that the [TS]

  mere act of typing on the keyboard bends [TS]

  it that's that's pretty bad we are [TS]

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  like this giant heavy thing like falling [TS]

  off the wall and crashing down like that [TS]

  that never happens that they're they're [TS]

  way too lightweight for that it's just [TS]

  these wonderful practical and very nice [TS]

  looking glass prints of your photos and [TS]

  they make fantastic gifts especially now [TS]

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  they around the holidays can [TS]

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  these these wonderful people in Florida [TS]

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  it comes with everything you need right [TS]

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  fracture prints are great they make [TS]

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  first order with code ATP seventeen [TS]

  thank you so much to fracture for [TS]

  sponsoring our show let's do a little [TS]

  bit of ask ATP Paige Hilliard writes in [TS]

  is there any way the three of you could [TS]

  come up with a list of realistic things [TS]

  that you would like to have as holiday [TS]

  gifts even if some of you already have [TS]

  them helpful hints would be greatly [TS]

  appreciated and potentially opening up [TS]

  your website to sell t-shirts or gear [TS]

  year-round would be even more [TS]

  appreciated so the bad news is is that [TS]

  Paige's spouse or or what-have-you is [TS]

  protect probably going to be listening [TS]

  to the show and so Paige now you can't [TS]

  use any of these ideas because we're now [TS]

  giving them away however you assume we [TS]

  have useful ideas that's also fair I was [TS]

  thinking about this on and off most of [TS]

  today I try to every year and I did not [TS]

  do it this year I tried it every year do [TS]

  a like holiday roundup of here's a bunch [TS]

  of different gifts that I recommend at [TS]

  all sorts of different price points and [TS]

  so I'll put in the show notes the last [TS]

  couple of years of these posts and [TS]

  they're just stuff I like sometimes it's [TS]

  boardgame sometimes it's stupid lights [TS]

  like cables or something dumb like that [TS]

  but this year I didn't do it mostly [TS]

  because I didn't feel like I had that [TS]

  many new and interesting ideas so I'm [TS]

  missing out on that sweet sweet [TS]

  affiliate money but my priority is to do [TS]

  a post that I think is useful before it [TS]

  is make a few bucks on affiliate money [TS]

  so that's why I didn't write it the only [TS]

  thing I can come up with that I think is [TS]

  useful is for those of us with new [TS]

  phones a Qi charger seems like a pretty [TS]

  good answer now you would have to figure [TS]

  out would would your partner want a [TS]

  stand up Qi charger safer at a desk or [TS]

  would they want ace a lay down Qi [TS]

  charger safer like at a nightstand but [TS]

  that seems to me to be a pretty good [TS]

  option and a pretty safe option for [TS]

  anyone that has an iPhone 8 or newer I [TS]

  have a hard time with this because I am [TS]

  very hard to shop for as everyone in my [TS]

  family always complains about [TS]

  right around this time of year and when [TS]

  I do think of something that I actually [TS]

  want I just buy it immediately and don't [TS]

  give anyone else a chance to buy it for [TS]

  me or sometimes the things that I want [TS]

  are too expensive that I would feel [TS]

  comfortable asking for as a gift so it's [TS]

  it's kind of a hard topic especially [TS]

  because we don't know anything about [TS]

  this person really it's so it's you know [TS]

  like if they like coffee I can tell you [TS]

  lots of coffee gear that that could be [TS]

  useful I've written up on my side a few [TS]

  times so yeah like Casey I didn't do [TS]

  anything with any kind of gift guide [TS]

  this year but you know coffee equipment [TS]

  kitchen equipment in general you know it [TS]

  for whatever they like to do that's [TS]

  always you know interesting gift ideas [TS]

  but it's really hard without knowing [TS]

  anything else I can think of like you [TS]

  know kind of a Greatest Hits kind of [TS]

  thing like just stuff that everyone [TS]

  seems to enjoy and certain kitchen [TS]

  gadgets fit this requirement I think [TS]

  pretty well certain ones are things like [TS]

  having like a really nice pair of gloves [TS]

  for the winter is always like good for [TS]

  Christmas I enjoy having a really nice [TS]

  flashlight the there's a line of [TS]

  flashlights by the brand Phoenix with an [TS]

  F F VIII and IX that I really enjoy that [TS]

  just use like two double-a batteries and [TS]

  you can get smaller bigger ones with the [TS]

  two double-a ones I think are the best [TS]

  size to weight balance they're super [TS]

  nice LED flashlights that's just kind of [TS]

  like a pleasant thing to have around [TS]

  your mention of the Qi charging mats is [TS]

  really good the Mophie one that the [TS]

  Apple store sells is excellent I sure [TS]

  had a few other ones now I actually just [TS]

  got in the Grove made one those just [TS]

  came today I have not yet actually used [TS]

  it beyond just five seconds to test it [TS]

  out because it's it's gonna be my [TS]

  nightstand charger and I haven't got a [TS]

  bed yet so but it looks really nice and [TS]

  it's very well built it's pretty big [TS]

  but but pretty well built pretty nice [TS]

  and yeah just you know the I mean [TS]

  there's all sorts of stuff like you know [TS]

  I like having a really nice backpack I [TS]

  have I have a backpack from Briggs & [TS]

  Riley which is a fancy luggage company [TS]

  they make fantastic luggage which is why [TS]

  I got their backpack and I just love [TS]

  that it's just it's so delightful to [TS]

  have that any kind of you know like [TS]

  certain people myself included like [TS]

  having nice leather goods [TS]

  so like you know like a leather laptop [TS]

  case maybe something like that like that [TS]

  that kind of stuff you know but I mean [TS]

  this this stuff this is so like kind of [TS]

  general purpose [TS]

  I like having really good travel mugs [TS]

  zojirushi makes a really nice travel mug [TS]

  that I really really like yeah I I don't [TS]

  really know it's it's really hard to [TS]

  know like how to be more specific than [TS]

  this but those are all nice things yeah [TS]

  you know hearing you talk gave me a [TS]

  couple of other ideas one of the best [TS]

  investments I've ever ever ever made was [TS]

  what I call my go pack which is really [TS]

  just a collection of cables and whatnot [TS]

  that are basically duplicates of [TS]

  anything I would need to charge any of [TS]

  my devices and a couple other [TS]

  miscellaneous bits so you know if I ever [TS]

  go overnight anywhere I just grabbed [TS]

  this bag that has all of my chargers in [TS]

  it always they never ever leave that bag [TS]

  unless they're you know in a hotel being [TS]

  used or whatever and I don't have to you [TS]

  know remove my entire installation from [TS]

  my bedside table or anything like that [TS]

  pack it up and then reassemble it when I [TS]

  get back home it is just everything in [TS]

  duplicate and I've written a couple of [TS]

  log posts about that and so I'll put a [TS]

  link to that in the show notes it can [TS]

  get pretty spendy depending on what you [TS]

  want I think I've spent like 200 bucks [TS]

  on mine and I'm not talking about the [TS]

  bag itself I'm talking about all the [TS]

  bits inside but I have a couple of [TS]

  fairly expensive things that I find very [TS]

  useful that most normal humans probably [TS]

  wouldn't and then additionally hearing [TS]

  you talk about your did you say Briggs & [TS]

  Riley umm backpack I happen to adore [TS]

  anything that Tom bin makes that's T OMB [TS]

  IH n it's maybe a little late to order [TS]

  it for this holiday season unless you [TS]

  are on the west coast because they're [TS]

  Seattle based but pretty much anything [TS]

  Tom Ben makes I adore and I highly [TS]

  recommend that as much as Marko seems to [TS]

  highly recommend Briggs & Riley as well [TS]

  so just a couple of quick thoughts that [TS]

  Marco made me think of before [TS]

  one more thing also I came up with [TS]

  something more specific in the kitchen [TS]

  category I have gotten as gifts for [TS]

  other people in the past my favorite [TS]

  kitchen thermometer which is the thermo [TS]

  works thermapen mark 4 if you have any [TS]

  need for a kitchen thermometer and [TS]

  if you ever do anything in the kitchen [TS]

  ever you do even if you don't think you [TS]

  need one you need one and once you have [TS]

  one you will use it for lots of things [TS]

  every kitchen should have a thermometer [TS]

  and a scale and the scale you can get [TS]

  pretty much any cheap garbage it doesn't [TS]

  really matter the thermometer they [TS]

  actually matter quite a bit there's [TS]

  pretty big variations in quality and [TS]

  accuracy and speed and everything else [TS]

  what you want is the thermapen mark for [TS]

  from thermo works it runs about 70 bucks [TS]

  usually when if you find a good sale I [TS]

  think it's about 90 if it's not on sale [TS]

  this is the one like if you see like on [TS]

  Top Chef if you ever see anybody using a [TS]

  kitchen thermometer it is probably this [TS]

  one there's a reason for that [TS]

  it's awesome this is like the I was [TS]

  gonna say the Cadillac of thermometers [TS]

  but Cadillac aren't that great anymore [TS]

  are they this is this is the Tesla of [TS]

  thermometers like this it's great [TS]

  generally and like you know I mentioned [TS]

  Phoenix earlier with the LED flashlight [TS]

  thing and those are like 50 bucks you [TS]

  know so these aren't cheap but it's [TS]

  really nice when if you're the kind of [TS]

  person who values quality and nice [TS]

  things but almost everyone is about [TS]

  something you know it might not be about [TS]

  the same things that you or I are but [TS]

  almost everyone can appreciate quality [TS]

  in something and it's really nice when [TS]

  you can find something like this in a [TS]

  category where like pretty much [TS]

  everything else in the category is kind [TS]

  of mediocre garbage and if you can [TS]

  figure out what's like the one really [TS]

  awesome thing in that category even if [TS]

  it's a little bit ridiculously priced [TS]

  that kind of thing makes a good gift [TS]

  because the kind of thing we're like [TS]

  people who receive it can probably [TS]

  appreciate something really awesome like [TS]

  that but because it's expensive and or [TS]

  obscure they might not ever know about [TS]

  it or they might not feel justified [TS]

  spending a price for it so that's the [TS]

  perfect kind of thing that makes a great [TS]

  gift is like I wouldn't have bought this [TS]

  for myself [TS]

  but I really appreciate having it yeah I [TS]

  do agree that that is one of the best [TS]

  gifts the oh man this is great but I'm [TS]

  so glad I didn't spend them honey huh [TS]

  that is that is the sweet spot John [TS]

  we've delayed you far too long what are [TS]

  your thoughts I reject the premise of [TS]

  this question which is that we should we [TS]

  should list things that we like because [TS]

  people who listen to the show like the [TS]

  same things that we like I mean we can [TS]

  try to list things that we like [TS]

  even if we already have them like that [TS]

  is one task but the the second part of [TS]

  this is for those of us who are [TS]

  partnered with a TV fans the idea being [TS]

  that if we list things that we like that [TS]

  people who like the show will also like [TS]

  those same things and I don't think [TS]

  that's true like just because we like [TS]

  that means we like them everyone who [TS]

  listens the show is not like us [TS]

  hopefully so oh yeah and also I'm [TS]

  terrible giving gift so even if I had a [TS]

  good ideas for gifts that wouldn't [TS]

  listen to me so that's very helpful [TS]

  thank you John yeah and I put this [TS]

  question in there and I basically put it [TS]

  in just to say can you come up with a [TS]

  list of but and the answer for me is no [TS]

  I can't I cannot do that because I don't [TS]

  think I should I don't think it makes [TS]

  sense and even if it was phrased so it [TS]

  does make sense I'm bad at that so I'm [TS]

  glad YouTube filled in page just like [TS]

  you and your partner know that Marco and [TS]

  I are your favorites and John is my and [TS]

  it too aspect what do you ask for I'm [TS]

  not as bad as Marco in that I don't [TS]

  immediately buy everything that I want [TS]

  but when people ask me what they should [TS]

  get me my answer is always nothing which [TS]

  is probably the worst thing you can say [TS]

  if someone wants to get you a gift so [TS]

  I'm just terrible all around when it [TS]

  comes to gift stuff yeah honestly I [TS]

  would love to get to the point with the [TS]

  family where like like maybe we just get [TS]

  gifts for the kids right like that's [TS]

  that seems like a better way to do it [TS]

  but which say this is I think this is [TS]

  the kind of like many adults wanted this [TS]

  outcome but it's very hard to get [TS]

  families to agree to that we're getting [TS]

  close like we should have like a big [TS]

  family map of like how far like we've [TS]

  we've successfully spread the only gifts [TS]

  for kids name we've done pretty fun [TS]

  alright moving on [TS]

  rob Fiorentino writes how do you feel [TS]

  about your code or your apps after you [TS]

  have written them are they more like [TS]

  your children or your tools out in the [TS]

  shed I will speak for myself and say any [TS]

  code that I've written more than three [TS]

  days ago is always garbage and any code [TS]

  I've written in the last three days is [TS]

  often garbage John I'm not sure like [TS]

  with the children or tools thing I'm not [TS]

  sure like what what Rob is getting at [TS]

  there you can take a lots of different [TS]

  ways like you know tools in your shed or [TS]

  children like I don't know anyway I'll [TS]

  just tell you how I feel about my code [TS]

  because I don't understand that part of [TS]

  it I think he's just saying you know is [TS]

  it is it disposable and you're like yeah [TS]

  whatever or is it oh this is my creation [TS]

  that I've laid [TS]

  for and it is perfect in every possible [TS]

  way I mean like you said Casey it really [TS]

  depends on the time line sometimes you [TS]

  write code and as soon as you've done [TS]

  writing it you just hate it but it's [TS]

  like you just got to do what you got to [TS]

  do cuz it's work right [TS]

  other times you're you can be mildly [TS]

  satisfied with it but there is I there's [TS]

  really no such thing as far as I'm [TS]

  concerned as code that I write that I [TS]

  can look back on the long term and not [TS]

  see all the terrible problems with like [TS]

  a couple years down the line no matter [TS]

  how incredibly happy you are with [TS]

  something you I will I always do see [TS]

  what's really wrong with it it you know [TS]

  if only because if that code lives on [TS]

  like if it's if you're aware of its [TS]

  existence it probably means that it's [TS]

  still in use which means that it has to [TS]

  be modified to account for you know the [TS]

  changes of reality like you know things [TS]

  change and you have to modify an augment [TS]

  your code to do new things and [TS]

  inevitably you get to the point where [TS]

  you are modifying your code in ways that [TS]

  you do not anticipate when you wrote it [TS]

  and nothing makes code uglier it makes [TS]

  you more annoyed with it then more than [TS]

  trying to change it in ways that it [TS]

  wasn't meant to be changed like you [TS]

  never thought things would change along [TS]

  this axis you always thought this [TS]

  bedrock assumption would be true when [TS]

  the entire system was built around it [TS]

  then that bedrock assumption is not true [TS]

  and you're like oh god do I read the [TS]

  whole thing how can I change it is it [TS]

  too much like and then so you just feel [TS]

  bad about it so it's mostly the more [TS]

  time goes on and the more it has to [TS]

  change the more bad I feel about it [TS]

  Marko pretty much all my old code I look [TS]

  at it as yeah this this is just garbage [TS]

  and it's a burden like I I love deleting [TS]

  code I love when a library comes around [TS]

  that removes the need for some code I've [TS]

  written I can just delete my code and [TS]

  use the library or you know new API is [TS]

  from Apple one those come and stuff like [TS]

  that [TS]

  I I code to accomplish something else [TS]

  like I code to build a product the [TS]

  actual code I take very little joy in [TS]

  like is it beautiful or I'll [TS]

  or interesting or clever like I don't I [TS]

  take no joy in any of that so I write [TS]

  code and immediately even as I'm writing [TS]

  it I'm like oh god I don't want to have [TS]

  to maintain this I don't like I don't [TS]

  want to have to do this crazy thing like [TS]

  but it's all to accomplish the end so [TS]

  basically immediately after my code is [TS]

  written I don't like it and I just try [TS]

  to move on if I can yeah I mean I gave a [TS]

  slightly Starkie answered and saying [TS]

  everything I've written I hate and that [TS]

  is only slightly snarky do you feel that [TS]

  most of the time but all kidding aside [TS]

  in my entire career and I've been doing [TS]

  this for jeez like 13 years now I think [TS]

  there have been maybe probably five or [TS]

  less like blocks of code I don't mean [TS]

  that is like five lines I mean like like [TS]

  projects maybe it's a better way of [TS]

  phrasing if they've been like five or [TS]

  less projects wherein I've written some [TS]

  code and thoughts myself you know what [TS]

  that was really solid and I did [TS]

  something really good and/or clever [TS]

  there and usually clever is bad when it [TS]

  comes to code but occasionally I'm good [TS]

  and and so I think all kidding aside [TS]

  probably five times the last my career [TS]

  I've looked back and said that was that [TS]

  was good work everything else is either [TS]

  well it didn't immediately turn into a [TS]

  fireball so I consider that you know [TS]

  [Laughter] [TS]

  that no one else is telling him to [TS]

  change to you know change his product in [TS]

  ways that he didn't anticipate it [TS]

  changing because he's the one who [TS]

  decides how it's going to change him and [TS]

  if anyone has any kind of idea how it [TS]

  might change in the future it's him [TS]

  because he's gonna be and it's not like [TS]

  he's saying he predicts everything but [TS]

  you never have he never has someone [TS]

  coming and saying you should add this [TS]

  feature that is that flies in the face [TS]

  of your entire internal design of your [TS]

  application even if he has the notion to [TS]

  do that he's not forced to do it on an [TS]

  abbreviated timeline or like all sorts [TS]

  of like the pressures of the real job [TS]

  that forces you to do things chef when [TS]

  the iPhone 10s coming out and you got to [TS]

  make the release yeah yeah yeah yeah [TS]

  right but but does that's that's like [TS]

  that's more like just that's that's what [TS]

  the entire job is is using someone [TS]

  else's api's you know you don't write [TS]

  UIKit you rolling with the punches of [TS]

  apple's platform you're writing on top [TS]

  of a platform is everyone has that same [TS]

  thing if you're writing you know [TS]

  whatever you're writing on top of a [TS]

  framework and that framework changes and [TS]

  you gotta you know roll with those [TS]

  punches too like but I'm saying for like [TS]

  the things that your actual product does [TS]

  so I think it makes you feel worse when [TS]

  you have to change your thing in a way [TS]

  that it was never meant to be changed [TS]

  and you have to do it ASAP [TS]

  and you know whether you think it's a [TS]

  good idea or not it has to happen that [TS]

  does like the worst damage to even even [TS]

  code that you that you feel like you [TS]

  know was was arranged in a reasonable [TS]

  way and designed in a reasonable way you [TS]

  have to go in there and basically like [TS]

  injure it and scarred and make it uglier [TS]

  and just makes you want to just never [TS]

  look at it again and tear it all down [TS]

  and start over and you know I know those [TS]

  feels all too well now one of my [TS]

  favorite pastimes on the show is to bag [TS]

  on Marco for not having a job however in [TS]

  Marco's defense I have to stand up for [TS]

  Marco on this one I feel like just in [TS]

  the last few days Marco and I don't know [TS]

  how much of this you want to talk about [TS]

  on the show so I'm gonna be a little [TS]

  cagey about it but just in the last few [TS]

  days you had maybe not an emergency but [TS]

  a oh crap moment where some external [TS]

  force forced you to do a whole bunch of [TS]

  things and write a whole bunch of code [TS]

  that it seems like you if you were [TS]

  planning on doing it at all it was going [TS]

  to be long in the future and so I do [TS]

  think John you're you're usually right [TS]

  but it just so happens that it seems [TS]

  like Marco you've just gone through this [TS]

  recently so how do you feel about that [TS]

  code whether or not you want to discuss [TS]

  the motivations behind it I'm happy to [TS]

  talk about it so the cook you're [TS]

  referring to is overcast handling [TS]

  permanent feed redirects or feed changes [TS]

  for podcasts basically the way I built [TS]

  the overcast crawling infrastructure and [TS]

  database is that feeds have feeds are [TS]

  keyed uniquely on URLs so that every [TS]

  every feet and feeds map one-to-one to [TS]

  URLs and those URLs really can't or it [TS]

  shouldn't change in the feed like if you [TS]

  have a new URL gets a new feed entry and [TS]

  then episodes are represented as feed [TS]

  items and feed items are keyed based on [TS]

  their feed [TS]

  plus then like you know a bunch of [TS]

  random numbers based on like you know [TS]

  hashing their contents and then their [TS]

  GUI D and stuff and so once you have [TS]

  feeds and feed items match to a certain [TS]

  feed URL it's not trivial to then move [TS]

  those subscribers to a different feed [TS]

  URL because all the item IDs for [TS]

  everything they have subscribed to will [TS]

  be different and I can't easily change I [TS]

  can't just like modify the ones that are [TS]

  on the old feed to point to the new feed [TS]

  without having lots of other problems [TS]

  and everything else and also worth [TS]

  noting is that the feed items table is [TS]

  170 gigs now the table that map's users [TS]

  to feed items is also about 170 gigs [TS]

  these are the two biggest and highest [TS]

  traffic tables and overcast it is very [TS]

  hard to modify these tables at all to [TS]

  modify the schema to add indexes or to [TS]

  change the schema talk to run alter [TS]

  tables on it it pretty much can't be [TS]

  completed in any kind of real-time [TS]

  fashion the only way to really change [TS]

  that would be to set up a whole new [TS]

  database as a replica modify it and then [TS]

  make it the new master and that's that's [TS]

  just a lot of administration work and [TS]

  it's it's risky it involves you know [TS]

  downtime and I hate doing it and so all [TS]

  this is to say that for for overcast to [TS]

  modify what URL a feed entry points to [TS]

  is a big deal and so for since the [TS]

  beginning of overcast the way it handled [TS]

  redirects was in HTTP terms it treated [TS]

  them all as 302 is temporary redirects [TS]

  so if it encountered a redirect it would [TS]

  follow it when crawling the feed but it [TS]

  would never update the source URL to [TS]

  point to a new one if it encountered a [TS]

  301 code which is the permanent redirect [TS]

  code this works on the web because on [TS]

  the web it's pretty common practice that [TS]

  if you like host a website at a certain [TS]

  domain name or a certain path and you [TS]

  change your URL scheme or you move hosts [TS]

  it's kind of known on the web that [TS]

  you're supposed to set up a redirect [TS]

  pretty much indefinitely that like it is [TS]

  a bad eye [TS]

  the to ever change URL without having a [TS]

  redirect in place because then you're [TS]

  losing all your like search engine [TS]

  ranking and your inbound links from [TS]

  other places and everything else like [TS]

  it's kind of understood as a best [TS]

  practice in the web that you don't break [TS]

  redirects ever so on the web a permanent [TS]

  redirect is much less important to be [TS]

  treated as such because you can just [TS]

  always crawl one of the URLs that [TS]

  something used to be at and if it's been [TS]

  properly maintained it will get you to [TS]

  where the feed is like when we were then [TS]

  where the new one is podcasting doesn't [TS]

  work that way in practice so all this [TS]

  time when I've been doing you know [TS]

  basically like treating this like the [TS]

  web where like I just kind of assumed [TS]

  that if I follow a redirect it'll always [TS]

  be there in podcast a lot of podcasters [TS]

  first of all aren't web programmers you [TS]

  know a lot of podcast producers and you [TS]

  know they come from like the media world [TS]

  there's also all sorts of podcast [TS]

  hosting and analytics and advertising [TS]

  platforms out there that all that all [TS]

  want to host your feed for you at their [TS]

  domain and are all selling their [TS]

  services quite successfully to big [TS]

  podcasters and the big podcasters to [TS]

  them their entire world is iTunes and [TS]

  with iTunes you don't have to maintain [TS]

  permanent redirects forever if you [TS]

  change your feet you can just tell [TS]

  iTunes what your new URL is and it will [TS]

  move for you for it's for itself and and [TS]

  for Apple podcast subscribers and then [TS]

  you don't have to think about it anymore [TS]

  so the concept of having permanent [TS]

  redirect setup is in practice not known [TS]

  or not practiced by most podcasters they [TS]

  are happy to move their feeds to anyone [TS]

  elses service anyone else's domain [TS]

  whatever new ad tracking insertion [TS]

  platform they're using this six month [TS]

  period they're they'll move it all the [TS]

  time and they don't consider what web [TS]

  programmers will consider you know is [TS]

  necessary for that so I could say here [TS]

  all that's as much as I want and try to [TS]

  blame them and say well you know this is [TS]

  your problem not mine but the reality is [TS]

  it becomes my problem it is definitely [TS]

  my problem and it's my and I'm the one [TS]

  who needs to fix it and find a solution [TS]

  because what happens is when a big [TS]

  podcast [TS]

  like about about a year ago this [TS]

  American life moved their feed and they [TS]

  broke the old redirect and I certainly [TS]

  had like 80,000 people telling me that [TS]

  their number one podcast was broken and [TS]

  overcast and this was bad simile it [TS]

  became my problem very much so at the [TS]

  time I didn't have any any kind of [TS]

  infrastructure in place to move [TS]

  subscribers between feeds in a way that [TS]

  wouldn't just break everything and this [TS]

  American life has another problem where [TS]

  they don't keep their back feed going [TS]

  like they they only keep the most recent [TS]

  handful of episodes in the feed once [TS]

  something is older than a few weeks old [TS]

  you can't download it anymore you have [TS]

  to I think I think they sell them or you [TS]

  can get them in their app or something [TS]

  but you can't download them out of the [TS]

  regular feed anymore [TS]

  so if I move people over to a new entry [TS]

  that doesn't have all those back catalog [TS]

  episodes for this American Life that's a [TS]

  pretty big problem especially for that [TS]

  show because it's so popular and a lot [TS]

  of times people will save save APIs ODEs [TS]

  for like months at a time like they'll [TS]

  save up a big back catalog so they can [TS]

  get to go back and realest in or gonna [TS]

  save it up for like long car trips [TS]

  whatever else so there's all these like [TS]

  very very fragile conditions in which I [TS]

  have to be very careful what I do to [TS]

  handle redirects if anything and my [TS]

  original plan up until now of just not [TS]

  handling them was breaking down pretty [TS]

  badly the driving factor this past week [TS]

  was that books bookcase was looted too [TS]

  the New York Times podcast the daily is [TS]

  very very popular the daily moved their [TS]

  feed overcast didn't handle didn't take [TS]

  the redirect and the old feed wasn't [TS]

  redirecting to the new one I was hearing [TS]

  about it from a lot of people and [TS]

  eventually we worked it out and and they [TS]

  had heard they arranged to to put that [TS]

  redirect in place so that was a [TS]

  temporary patch but ultimately this was [TS]

  kind of like one of the many wake-up [TS]

  calls I finally had it was like okay I [TS]

  need to handle redirects also like [TS]

  SoundCloud is falling apart and it seems [TS]

  like they're probably not long for this [TS]

  world so like and a lot of pockets were [TS]

  hosted there so there's maybe a lot of [TS]

  feed moves there and and there's so many [TS]

  popular shows that are moving to [TS]

  different ad insertion platforms now and [TS]

  changing their if you'd address again [TS]

  it's it's a big enough problem now that [TS]

  like any podcast [TS]

  crawling setup like this it has to have [TS]

  a way to have permanent redirects like [TS]

  that's just the that's just the [TS]

  environment now too many popular shows [TS]

  move too often you have to do it so what [TS]

  I've been working on for the last you [TS]

  know I don't know a week or so is that [TS]

  is permanent redirects and making it [TS]

  work and it's really not good like the [TS]

  way I do it is really not good but the [TS]

  only way I can do it without totally [TS]

  modifying my database schema and going [TS]

  through like sysadmin hell for weeks as [TS]

  I do that not to mention lots of costs [TS]

  associated with that and possible bug [TS]

  potential so I really don't want to do [TS]

  that so what I do now basically is I [TS]

  have a separate process from the [TS]

  crawlers because it's speaking of your [TS]

  old code my crawlers are are the only [TS]

  thing I have written and go and I [TS]

  haven't written really any go since so [TS]

  my ghost skills are very rusty and I [TS]

  look at the crawler code now and it's so [TS]

  complex because it was not only is it [TS]

  written in this language that I've used [TS]

  for nothing else so like my skills are [TS]

  dull but also it's at the first go [TS]

  program I ever wrote so it's not [TS]

  particularly great go code like it's [TS]

  like me learning the language and so [TS]

  like everything's in one big file and [TS]

  it's kind of all over the place and for [TS]

  me to track redirect there I would have [TS]

  to modify the go code and I've been [TS]

  trying to do that at first to solve a [TS]

  few other problems it's just like [TS]

  looking at this like I just want to set [TS]

  this on fire like I have no idea what [TS]

  this does I'm so scared so she goes like [TS]

  it mostly has worked for a long time and [TS]

  I don't want to touch it but so instead [TS]

  I made a separate process a separate [TS]

  process in PHP my comfort language I [TS]

  know it's like comfort food like it's [TS]

  it's not good for you but you know [TS]

  anyway so I made a PHP separate cue that [TS]

  just once a day checks feeds for [TS]

  redirects and if a feed is redirecting [TS]

  to the same place that is also an iTunes [TS]

  registered feed for more than I think [TS]

  two days it's a threshold at then it [TS]

  will take all the subscribers and [TS]

  basically create new entries for them in [TS]

  the new feed that [TS]

  their entries in the old feed and then [TS]

  delete the old feed description so to [TS]

  the user the only thing that appears to [TS]

  happen is all of a sudden the episodes [TS]

  for one of those shows that could that [TS]

  got moved [TS]

  they all just redownload for some reason [TS]

  everything else is preserved played [TS]

  unplayed states whether its start or not [TS]

  progress if you're partial this and [TS]

  that's all preserved that just gets re [TS]

  inserted and with the new IDs but you do [TS]

  have to redownload because the client [TS]

  sees them as new entries basically [TS]

  that's now in place there's now this [TS]

  queue that runs those things that's [TS]

  going through the backlog it took way [TS]

  too long for me to do this I'm glad I [TS]

  finally did it [TS]

  I wish I had a slightly more elegant [TS]

  solution that wouldn't require read [TS]

  downloading but that would just be a lot [TS]

  more overhead so I'm not gonna do that [TS]

  yet maybe down the road if it becomes a [TS]

  big problem and then like once I found [TS]

  like once I hacked I had something [TS]

  actually checking for 301 redirects and [TS]

  and for the new iTunes new feed URL tag [TS]

  which is inserted it's like what people [TS]

  who aren't familiar with podcast who [TS]

  just know web programming this would [TS]

  make you cry that like the way that you [TS]

  can redirect a feed for podcasts is you [TS]

  leave the old feed still there returning [TS]

  a 200 response code but you put an XML [TS]

  tag in the RSS feed that's iTunes : new [TS]

  feed URL and just leave that there for a [TS]

  few days and iTunes picks it up and [TS]

  moves your feed for you and then the old [TS]

  feed just can sit there not getting [TS]

  episodes added to it or can just get [TS]

  deleted and stop working like that's how [TS]

  like I'm telling you this is what I have [TS]

  to deal with again like the web [TS]

  programmer me when I started this whole [TS]

  thing is like I don't need to do that [TS]

  that's terrible no one's gonna really do [TS]

  that but no people really do it and at [TS]

  increasing frequency and yeah and so [TS]

  anyway once I had this redirect check in [TS]

  working I was able to see quite how many [TS]

  very popular shows have had redirects [TS]

  since 2014 when I started crawling them [TS]

  and it's a lot some of them were simple [TS]

  like moving from HTTP to HTTPS like that [TS]

  that's a very common one like all the [TS]

  relay shows did that lots of lots of [TS]

  popular shows have done that but a lot [TS]

  of them are just moving to different ad [TS]

  platforms and track [TS]

  platforms and insertion platforms and [TS]

  publishing platforms and no one hosts [TS]

  their own feed in podcasting it's yeah [TS]

  so it's it's a mess out there and so I [TS]

  had to deal with it even though I really [TS]

  didn't want to [TS]

  I was so opinionated about like I don't [TS]

  need to do this like that's it they [TS]

  should have redirects in place forever [TS]

  but that's not the reality and I had I [TS]

  had to you know adopted that because [TS]

  that's the understatement [TS]

  so yeah so occasionally you have to do [TS]

  things and do them on the double because [TS]

  other people weren't thinking about you [TS]

  but it's not his boss tell him to do it [TS]

  though he's his boss he's the one he got [TS]

  to the point is he got to delay doing it [TS]

  for a really long time because he didn't [TS]

  want that one very popular feeds [TS]

  redirect but it was saying like no one [TS]

  no one is forcing you to add an about [TS]

  screen that includes a car racing game [TS]

  to your to your thing you really don't [TS]

  have your display system no no one's [TS]

  making you support video podcasts if you [TS]

  don't want to no ones deciding you have [TS]

  to have a recipe manager and a to-do [TS]

  list inside it that's the type of thing [TS]

  we respond to this week by hover domain [TS]

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  passionate about without tying it to a [TS]

  particular publishing platform or a big [TS]

  email platform that happens to be [TS]

  popular this year or this five years [TS]

  because that changes over time and you [TS]

  know my first email address was at Juno [TS]

  calm and and I when I bought markers at [TS]

  Oregon in 2000 that was the last time I [TS]

  had to change my email address and tell [TS]

  anybody at that oh please I put your [TS]

  address book nobody ever likes that I [TS]

  also have hosted my own website at my [TS]

  own domain name since that time because [TS]

  web host change platforms change social [TS]

  networks change and it's it's always [TS]

  nice to have a domain for your home base [TS]

  for what you tell people to represent [TS]

  you online for your email address for [TS]

  your website have your own domain name [TS]

  and if you're gonna do that you got to [TS]

  register it somewhere and hover is my [TS]

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  they have great features to say [TS]

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  setup or if you want fully advanced DNS [TS]

  control they have that too if you need [TS]

  any help at all their customer support [TS]

  is top-notch it's just a great place to [TS]

  register domains I have almost all of [TS]

  mine there now and I keep moving more [TS]

  there as time goes on [TS]

  because it's just Pleasant it's there [TS]

  when I need it and it's out of the way [TS]

  when I don't it's just what you want out [TS]

  of a domain registrar so check it out [TS]

  yourself go to hover comm slash ATP to [TS]

  learn more and get 10% off your first [TS]

  purchase that's hover.com slash ATP [TS]

  hover get a domain name for your passion [TS]

  so back to ask ATG thankfully thankfully [TS]

  we have a quick one to round us out uh [TS]

  Stefan Kozlowski writes do you guys [TS]

  pronounce the command su do as su do or [TS]

  sudo and I will start by saying I have [TS]

  always pronounced it sudo and I [TS]

  understand that it stands for super user [TS]

  do so su do is probably the more [TS]

  academically correct answer but I've [TS]

  always pronounced it sudo to think about [TS]

  this question because I think I do both [TS]

  both out loud and both in my head [TS]

  depending on context that's the [TS]

  conclusion I came to by like tracing [TS]

  through the times that I have said it or [TS]

  thinking about it I think I I think I do [TS]

  both I don't know it's not a satisfying [TS]

  answer but I think good the reality I [TS]

  pronounce it wrong and I don't care I'm [TS]

  proud of it I say sudo and I know it's [TS]

  super user do I'm very aware of this [TS]

  however I don't care to me sudo is its [TS]

  own word and so it gets some [TS]

  pronunciation yeah I don't think that's [TS]

  wrong that's just one of two very common [TS]

  pronunciations like who's to say which [TS]

  is I don't even know if that does the [TS]

  less common one it may be for all I know [TS]

  it's the more common one [TS]

  it's a Linux thing it's definitely wrong [TS]

  there's always whatever you whatever [TS]

  everyone does with Linux a lot of people [TS]

  will say it's wrong well I don't know I [TS]

  think it's in the running for to being [TS]

  the more popular one because like you [TS]

  said it is a word PSE you do like that [TS]

  the fact that you know people just [TS]

  substitute a word they're noticing that [TS]

  was when I was talking about I was I was [TS]

  just saying like you know basically like [TS]

  conceptually in my head I read that as [TS]

  pseudo like I read it as a word that and [TS]

  I know what it means it's like being [TS]

  fluent in a language like I'm not [TS]

  thinking about like it's a component [TS]

  parts I'm thinking like oh I need to [TS]

  pseudo do this command like that is its [TS]

  own word in my head I don't think like [TS]

  oh I need to superuser do like when I [TS]

  make a directory I think Oh make Durer [TS]

  like I or mcdr like I think that in my [TS]

  head like as I could component parts so [TS]

  I don't like think about that is in I [TS]

  don't say like you know make Dyer its [TS]

  dur for directories so but pseudo to me [TS]

  like that has become its own word in my [TS]

  head so that's why I pronounce it the [TS]

  way I do I don't I don't care about the [TS]

  the component parts of it and how [TS]

  they're pronounced all right [TS]

  John tell me about your blacks black [TS]

  screen of death this could have been [TS]

  follow up and I'm trying to you know I [TS]

  think it's it has wandered a default and [TS]

  I was just like practically a weekly [TS]

  segment where I complain about my laptop [TS]

  in some way you know people gave me so [TS]

  much crap when I was complaining about [TS]

  my laptop's not systemic complaints [TS]

  these are specific complaints for the [TS]

  most part sometimes just updates unlike [TS]

  my life with the Mac with like the touch [TS]

  bar thing was not really a complaint [TS]

  about touch part just telling you like I [TS]

  tried to use it and it wasn't for me [TS]

  like it you know I mean so that's there [TS]

  but anyway this is and this this might [TS]

  not be a laptop bug but it's a situation [TS]

  I find myself in frequently and one of [TS]

  those things where I don't know where to [TS]

  blame it but it just it makes my overall [TS]

  experience with this thing worse I think [TS]

  I mentioned it before that so I've got [TS]

  this docking station and it's great when [TS]

  everything works well but sometimes it [TS]

  gets cranky when I undock it so undock [TS]

  and I go out you know all undock with it [TS]

  in clamshell mode and I'll go off to a [TS]

  meeting or something and then I'll [TS]

  arrive at the meeting open up my laptop [TS]

  and everything about it will work [TS]

  perfectly except for the screen is 100% [TS]

  black and I used to know that everything [TS]

  was working perfectly back when the [TS]

  touch bar was not in the you know the [TS]

  mode that I changed it to or it just [TS]

  shows the function keys all the time [TS]

  because I would unlock with touch ID or [TS]

  unlock by typing my password into the [TS]

  totally black screen and then I could [TS]

  command tab and I could see the touch [TS]

  bar changing as I command everything's [TS]

  working I come command tab [TS]

  I'm assuming the track that is working [TS]

  if I could see the mouse cursor here to [TS]

  be moving I could you know type keyboard [TS]

  commands that I know worked in the [TS]

  frontmost application you know and like [TS]

  I could if it if you could use it [TS]

  without seeing the screen it was all [TS]

  working for the screen was a hundred [TS]

  percent black and nothing I would do to [TS]

  that computer sitting there would make [TS]

  that screen not be black put it to sleep [TS]

  wake it up again and close the lid open [TS]

  it the only way I found to bring it back [TS]

  is a hardware way where I would use my [TS]

  little they have some little dongle [TS]

  thingy that goes in the side that gives [TS]

  you like a USB port an HDMI and a much [TS]

  other crap plug that in the side and [TS]

  then plug the the rooms monitor into the [TS]

  HDMI port and that would wake up it [TS]

  would first of all it would stop my [TS]

  machine would start projecting on the on [TS]

  the external screen but also would wake [TS]

  up the internal display all right so [TS]

  that's I've had this book really a long [TS]

  time and it's annoying sometimes I've [TS]

  had to leave the meeting room go back to [TS]

  my desk get my dog oh come back to the [TS]

  room plug it in plug in the HDMI monitor [TS]

  and then my thing was awake anyway I ran [TS]

  to this problem and I'm calling this the [TS]

  black screen of death even though it's [TS]

  not death it's like in limbo it's alive [TS]

  but blind this happened to me where I [TS]

  unplugged my thing because I was on hard [TS]

  to get home unplugged it and I needed to [TS]

  use my laptop at home and I got home and [TS]

  opened it up and sure enough black [TS]

  screen and I didn't have my little [TS]

  dongle because it was back at work so I [TS]

  couldn't do the one magic hardware thing [TS]

  that makes my screen but I'm back - I [TS]

  tried so many other things I tried SS [TS]

  aging into it from another machine [TS]

  I tried plugging in other things I tried [TS]

  getting out my very own Apple branded [TS]

  HDMI dongle and plugging it into my [TS]

  gaming monitor which is HDMI and turning [TS]

  everything on and that didn't wake up [TS]

  the screen in the end I had to hard [TS]

  reset the thing which really annoyed me [TS]

  that's why I spent like 20 minutes [TS]

  trying to bring this thing back because [TS]

  I was in the middle of a lot of stuff [TS]

  you might not support you might be [TS]

  surprised to hear that I had a lot of [TS]

  windows open I had a lot of things going [TS]

  on you know I just I had a lot of [TS]

  terminals a lot of shelves and no I [TS]

  don't use any one of the million things [TS]

  that can let me resume my shelf yes I'm [TS]

  sorry I'm disappointing all the people [TS]

  who love team x and screen and [TS]

  and all the other things to do that's [TS]

  right I also use none of those things I [TS]

  always have tons of terminal tabs and [TS]

  windows open and it's fine [TS]

  right anyway I was in or that I lost [TS]

  everything that I was working on and had [TS]

  to hard reset my computer who wanna [TS]

  start reset and the worst part is I'm [TS]

  not hardly saying it cuz it crashed I'm [TS]

  not hard resetting it because it's [TS]

  frozen it's not like everything was fine [TS]

  except the screen was a hundred percent [TS]

  black so this is really putting a damper [TS]

  this bug and the possibility that this [TS]

  bug can be there - when it happens it's [TS]

  kind of like the month thirteen is out [TS]

  of bounds thing where it's like [TS]

  everything is mostly working but there's [TS]

  some part of it that's not working that [TS]

  you feel like someone should notice so I [TS]

  you know I would like I think something [TS]

  in the operating system should be aware [TS]

  after a certain period of time that [TS]

  there is a no monitor attached and B the [TS]

  screen is entirely black and I don't [TS]

  think that's a sustainable state and the [TS]

  lid is open I think that set of things [TS]

  there should be some assertion in the [TS]

  operating system that says if no monitor [TS]

  is attached and the lid is open and [TS]

  you're awake but the screen but the [TS]

  screen is 100% black fix that like make [TS]

  it not be like that I'm hoping that's [TS]

  the thing that can detect and I don't [TS]

  know who to blame maybe I blame the [TS]

  docking station maybe it's an OS bug who [TS]

  knows but anyway I don't like laptops [TS]

  are you on High Sierra on this yes oh no [TS]

  no I'm not I'm run regular Sarah sorry [TS]

  okay so that sort of it probably isn't [TS]

  like a well I guess I just a noob OS bug [TS]

  at least footage not like CR was bug [TS]

  free either I don't I don't know what it [TS]

  is it's just my latest in a long line of [TS]

  infuriating sort of bugs on my laptop so [TS]

  I can assure you that this is not only [TS]

  not a bug that has been fixed in High [TS]

  Sierra but it is not unique to your [TS]

  laptop because my Marco book Pro that I [TS]

  use at work that exhibits this same [TS]

  behavior now I wouldn't say that it [TS]

  happens all the time I wouldn't even say [TS]

  that it happens terribly often but the [TS]

  only solution I had come up with for it [TS]

  was occasionally I can sleep it and then [TS]

  reopen it you know close the lid and [TS]

  reopen it and then sometimes it'll come [TS]

  back or like you said you know [TS]

  disconnect external monitors reconnect [TS]

  external monitors but just like you said [TS]

  additionally there are times I just have [TS]

  to [TS]

  just kill the machine and bring it back [TS]

  so this is a clamshell problem this is a [TS]

  software problem this is not a new [TS]

  MacBook Pro problem and that is very sad [TS]

  I mean it seems like there must be some [TS]

  hardware aspect to it because I don't [TS]

  think merely closing the lid and opening [TS]

  it I think it's the fact that you're [TS]

  attaching an external monitor and [TS]

  something about the I've attached a [TS]

  monitor please detect that it's there [TS]

  and start sending your video signals it [TS]

  oh you just yanked it out I have to [TS]

  handle that like it's it's related to [TS]

  the fact that the hardware configuration [TS]

  machine is changing like I've never seen [TS]

  it [TS]

  you know once the computer is working in [TS]

  isolation I'm not plugging anything into [TS]

  it I've never seen it happen there where [TS]

  I close the lid and open and the screen [TS]

  doesn't turn on so I don't know but yeah [TS]

  like the these type of problems very [TS]

  often waking from sleep problems it's [TS]

  not like that but I feel like waking [TS]

  from sleep is almost more explicable [TS]

  it's like well the computers not even [TS]

  awake and so like obviously it's not [TS]

  working this is the worst because it's [TS]

  it's so clearly so clear especially with [TS]

  a touch bar that everything is working [TS]

  just fine that the computer is running [TS]

  it just refuses to display anything on [TS]

  the screen and I find that infuriating I [TS]

  should also add since this is apparently [TS]

  the airing of grievances it is the [TS]

  holiday season after all I should add [TS]

  that my Marco Book Pro is now going to [TS]

  have to go in for service when I'm out [TS]

  over the holidays because it turns out [TS]

  if you plug in and remove what is the [TS]

  port on the side what is the thunderbolt [TS]

  but it's also known as mini displayport [TS]

  yeah thank you if you plug and unplug [TS]

  mini DisplayPort cables every single day [TS]

  all day every day [TS]

  turns out they start to fail over time [TS]

  so Monday when I got to the office I [TS]

  tried to plug in my two LG 4k monitors [TS]

  and one of them in particular wouldn't [TS]

  plug in for the longest time I would [TS]

  switch around cables I switched around [TS]

  you know where I was plugging them in it [TS]

  was it was not nothing I could do to get [TS]

  it could get it to work and then finally [TS]

  we I had a actually my head IT guy come [TS]

  over and look at it and he plugged in [TS]

  his Marco Book Pro and it worked no [TS]

  problem immediately unplugged it plugged [TS]

  it back in work no problem so it appears [TS]

  that either the graphics card is dying [TS]

  or the connectors are getting screwed up [TS]

  in some way shape or form so I hope [TS]

  Marco that in your beloved Marco book [TS]

  Pro that you are not often time often [TS]

  using the Thunderbolt ports because over [TS]

  time after a year or two after a couple [TS]

  of years you might find them failing so [TS]

  good luck yeah it's one of the things [TS]

  that the move to USBC made a lot better [TS]

  that USB see as far as I can tell so far [TS]

  the connection does wear out over time [TS]

  just like many of them do however it [TS]

  seems like the parts that wear out are [TS]

  mostly in the cable end and not in the [TS]

  port end so it is kind of annoying that [TS]

  your cable loosens up over time [TS]

  especially when it's your power cable to [TS]

  your new meant to your new MacBook Pro [TS]

  but it does seem like that's probably an [TS]

  easier fix long-term that you can [TS]

  probably just replace the cable and [TS]

  those conditions for USB C but the mini [TS]

  DisplayPort connector that then became a [TS]

  thunderbolt connector that's never been [TS]

  a good connector like you know one of [TS]

  the big problems with it is that the [TS]

  cables are kind of loose in there like [TS]

  there's nothing like holding them in [TS]

  really they can just very easily like [TS]

  slide out or get a little bit dislodged [TS]

  or a little bit like jaw sold and that [TS]

  yeah I will defend a lot of great things [TS]

  about the 2015 era retina MacBook Pro [TS]

  however the design of the thunderbolt [TS]

  port is not one yep so I kind of wish I [TS]

  had a thunderbolt 100 but one I'm sorry [TS]

  a touch bar one but then ain't never [TS]

  gonna happen my IT guy refuses to buy [TS]

  any touch bar MacBook Pros and maybe [TS]

  it's because he's smarter than me yeah [TS]

  well I mean think about it from the [TS]

  point of view of an IT manager at a [TS]

  company like a computer that seems to [TS]

  have a pretty high keyboard failure rate [TS]

  compared to most computers and and again [TS]

  if people who defend this keyboard even [TS]

  if that rate is 20% that's still really [TS]

  high for a computer that has only [TS]

  existed for a year if that's the kind of [TS]

  failure rate you see on a pool of these [TS]

  new computers and if buying them would [TS]

  have to would make you have to like [TS]

  rebuy a whole bunch of dongles or [TS]

  display things or projecting things or [TS]

  things like that for like the whole [TS]

  office you can totally understand why an [TS]

  IT manager would be like yeah that's not [TS]

  oh yeah that's not worth it like [TS]

  we can't we can't afford the down time [TS]

  for the keyboards that's a lot of work [TS]

  for the IT people to have to like you [TS]

  know get the pull those out of service [TS]

  from from the company when they when the [TS]

  keyboards break get them repaired put [TS]

  them back in the service like you know [TS]

  figure out things in the meantime like [TS]

  that's a huge burden on an IT staff and [TS]

  even even before all that you consider [TS]

  all the dongle stuff so that makes total [TS]

  sense like I totally get it and that's [TS]

  honestly that's probably why Apple still [TS]

  sells the 2015 model new in the Apple [TS]

  Store today they probably sell a ton of [TS]

  them to big corporate purchasers who [TS]

  just want what they've been buying for [TS]

  years because they know it's fine [TS]

  they're already equipped for and it's [TS]

  pretty reliable except when you have to [TS]

  replace your Thunderbolt port we are [TS]

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  rethink what your money can do we have [TS]

  somehow accidentally procrastinated for [TS]

  an hour and 20 minutes by my clock but [TS]

  we should probably talk about the iMac [TS]

  Pro and we for me I started to have a [TS]

  holiday party and made it through about [TS]

  a half a drink because I was very busy [TS]

  tonight so I'm sad to report ladies and [TS]

  gentlemen that this is not a holiday [TS]

  party for me and I'm going to have to [TS]

  endure this sober and I'm doing it for [TS]

  you the listener so all right guys tell [TS]

  me about what's going on what you have [TS]

  to endure this aren't you sitting in [TS]

  front of a 5k iMac right now I'm mostly [TS]

  giving you a hard time I am and sitting [TS]

  in front of a 5k iMac so you're an iMac [TS]

  buyer this is a computer that could [TS]

  potentially be for you you like this [TS]

  kind of computer I do I do I'm mostly [TS]

  giving you to a heart yeah don't you do [TS]

  a lot of video transcoding and buy all [TS]

  of Apple stuff in space gray you know [TS]

  the the I don't the sick thing about the [TS]

  iMac Pro is the thing that I think [TS]

  appeals most to me about it is the fact [TS]

  that it's Space Gray because I think [TS]

  that is so hot it's so ridiculous [TS]

  that'll be the first to tell you that is [TS]

  utterly truly ridiculous that the thing [TS]

  I'm most excited about is the color but [TS]

  oh my god it looks so good and those [TS]

  accessories look so good no III snark in [TS]

  if you're not a longtime ATP listener [TS]

  there I don't remember which episode it [TS]

  was you know and I probably won't [TS]

  remember to put in the show notes but it [TS]

  was early on in our run yeah well it was [TS]

  all of them but no early on in our run [TS]

  it just so happened that I knew we were [TS]

  going to be talking about the Mac Pro [TS]

  and I don't remember why because there [TS]

  was no news about it but we were gonna [TS]

  be talking about the Mac Pro and I made [TS]

  the mistake of bringing my drink [TS]

  upstairs with me in into the office [TS]

  while I recorded no I didn't spill it on [TS]

  anything but that part wasn't the [TS]

  mistake the mistake was that I also [TS]

  brought the bottle with me and by the [TS]

  end of that episode I had had quite the [TS]

  holiday party all by myself and so [TS]

  anyway yeah you it's very embarrassing [TS]

  and I and I won't actually I probably [TS]

  won't link it because I am embarrassed [TS]

  by it and I shouldn't have done it but [TS]

  you know it is what it is and you only [TS]

  once anyway the iMac prout does appeal [TS]

  to me we should we should do a kind of [TS]

  an overview in just a moment it does [TS]

  appeal to me I don't think I find it [TS]

  worth all of that money I'm not saying [TS]

  that it's an unreasonable price I'm not [TS]

  saying [TS]

  saying [TS]

  being that it should be lower I'm just [TS]

  saying I have a really nice iMac in [TS]

  front of me and yes I do transcode [TS]

  things a lot yes I am getting into video [TS]

  now but sitting here now I don't feel [TS]

  like I need a new computer which is [TS]

  usually stage one in case you buying a [TS]

  new computer so anyway Marco tell me [TS]

  about what this is what this iMac pro is [TS]

  all about we actually do but there's [TS]

  still a lot of big unknowns about it [TS]

  because as we record this it is well [TS]

  actually are they are they gonna launch [TS]

  it at 3:00 in the morning tonight oh I [TS]

  think you're right are we just gonna [TS]

  maybe I should start my holiday party I [TS]

  have to keep podcasting until the [TS]

  configurator goes live and I I really [TS]

  don't want to do that but that there [TS]

  would be there's something to be said [TS]

  for how funny that would be and I will [TS]

  go downstairs and get myself more water [TS]

  and buy bottle and we can do a holiday [TS]

  party if that's what it takes I I'm not [TS]

  staying up til 3:00 in the morning I'm [TS]

  us me and the listeners yeah oh I'm [TS]

  gonna because like the thing is like for [TS]

  me like the Christmas season is way too [TS]

  busy for me to buy a new desktop and set [TS]

  it up and move my stuff over and [TS]

  everything like I'm way way too busy for [TS]

  a while [TS]

  so if I just wait until the morning to [TS]

  order mine if I order one I mean I'm [TS]

  still telling myself if I said that I [TS]

  took pause but I don't want to ruin your [TS]

  flow so I just I just bit my tongue but [TS]

  you're gonna order one now it may not be [TS]

  tomorrow I will I believe that it may [TS]

  not be tomorrow but you're gonna order [TS]

  one I mean it's probably it's where [TS]

  we're gonna be at least eight in the [TS]

  morning like I'm not gonna wake up a [TS]

  three [TS]

  maybe I mean I might wait until 8:00 so [TS]

  anyway all this is to say at the moment [TS]

  that we're recording we don't know any [TS]

  of the pricing and the configuration [TS]

  options really like we know what options [TS]

  will be available roughly but we don't [TS]

  know if there are certain combinations [TS]

  that they will require we don't know [TS]

  some of the finer details of some of the [TS]

  options the so that the core counts are [TS]

  gonna be 8 10 14 and 18 but the 14 and [TS]

  18 aren't available until quote early [TS]

  next year we don't know what that means [TS]

  really that could mean in two weeks or [TS]

  that could mean in three months so [TS]

  there's a whole lot of unknowns and and [TS]

  yeah and the biggest thing is that we [TS]

  only know the base price at this moment [TS]

  we only know that it starts at $5,000 [TS]

  and [TS]

  is 8-core one terabyte and I think 32 [TS]

  things around which is a great like [TS]

  that's an awesome compete like that is [TS]

  my iMac but with twice the cores like my [TS]

  iMac is 30 gram you know it was the top [TS]

  CPU at the time I bought it which was in [TS]

  2014 and and that was $4,300 or [TS]

  something like that at the time I think [TS]

  the top iMac is slightly cheaper now but [TS]

  it's like when you when you spec up an [TS]

  iMac to be one terabyte of SSD and 3232 [TS]

  because of ram you're already getting [TS]

  about four thousand dollars like you're [TS]

  near that point and so for this to be [TS]

  eight cores starting at $5,000 and for [TS]

  it to be the zi online with ECC Ram [TS]

  workstation you yeah like way better GPU [TS]

  faster SSD like and a whole lot of extra [TS]

  stuff like am i reading correctly for [TS]

  like from the reviews that it comes with [TS]

  all three peripherals it comes with a [TS]

  trackpad keyboard and mouse it's so hard [TS]

  to tell from these early reviews because [TS]

  like you said about the pricing you also [TS]

  like Apple just you know gives you a [TS]

  bunch of stuff as I here you go they [TS]

  don't they don't say you know wouldn't [TS]

  even be possible to order it this way or [TS]

  would you have to like say yeah you can [TS]

  buy all these input devices but you only [TS]

  get to pick one you know to come for [TS]

  free with your with your iMac Pro this [TS]

  is why you're gonna win the bet you're [TS]

  gonna make me buy a whole second I might [TS]

  just get a black trackpad and a black [TS]

  mouse that's the real the real black tax [TS]

  whole second machine no more like $300 [TS]

  extra yeah I lamented the 150 bucks or [TS]

  whatever was for the black book and this [TS]

  is a whole new world anyway so yeah so [TS]

  all those it to say pricing is still a [TS]

  big unknown for us for like all the [TS]

  details like the configuration that the [TS]

  reviewers all had was 10 core so it's [TS]

  one step up in the processor line from 8 [TS]

  to 10 core and I believe it was was it [TS]

  64 gigs for one 128 bytes of RAM okay [TS]

  yeah so that's that's probably going to [TS]

  be a you know a $7,000 configuration [TS]

  yeah and the big the big sort of [TS]

  nonlinear price increases are always [TS]

  going to be 128 gigs of ram and 4 [TS]

  terabyte SSD those are going to like [TS]

  as much as a car like I never like it's [TS]

  double the price of the of the size [TS]

  that's half as much nope it is not it is [TS]

  more no it's not yeah it's gonna be like [TS]

  you know one terabyte comes to that 2 [TS]

  terabytes might be like you know plus [TS]

  400 and then 4 terabytes might be like [TS]

  plus 1200 it's gonna be like that kind [TS]

  of jump like yeah it might even be more [TS]

  than that because these are big and the [TS]

  interesting thing about these these [TS]

  computers and we knew this already but I [TS]

  think people are relearning it for the [TS]

  second time because we saw these [TS]

  machines the WDC like actually [TS]

  physically saw them mm-hmm and in my [TS]

  case touch them even though you weren't [TS]

  supposed to person but they're there's [TS]

  no upgrade ability in this this is a [TS]

  question we asked the person who's there [TS]

  like you know is the RAM Sarge and the [TS]

  Border's in a slots he said it's in [TS]

  slots but you can't get at them like [TS]

  there's no little door for you to [TS]

  upgrade the RAM there's like you you can [TS]

  figure this machine from Apple and you [TS]

  buy it and that's it now in theory you [TS]

  could like I fix it could probably find [TS]

  a way to open this thing up and take out [TS]

  the RAM and upgrade it like there's [TS]

  nothing really stopping you from doing [TS]

  it's not like it's locked with the key [TS]

  or whatever except for perhaps a secure [TS]

  boot boot thing which we'll get to in a [TS]

  minute but who knows how they're you [TS]

  know integrating that with their RAM but [TS]

  essentially there are no upgradable [TS]

  parts inside this thing that you are [TS]

  allowed to change or that you could [TS]

  bring it to an Apple store and say I'd [TS]

  like to buy more RAM can you put more [TS]

  RAM in this room the apples because they [TS]

  know it the RAM that you got is what you [TS]

  kind of same thing with upgrading to CPU [TS]

  or any sort of Oh stuff like that which [TS]

  if you're gonna have a machine that's [TS]

  totally sealed up this is the one to do [TS]

  it on because the iMac the whole point [TS]

  of it is it's all in one right and you [TS]

  know the Mac Pro is coming and that that [TS]

  that really highlights what we think [TS]

  will be a very important difference [TS]

  between the iMac Pro in the Mac Pro the [TS]

  iMac Pro has the freedom map to say 100% [TS]

  sealed box configure the way you wanted [TS]

  and that's it you know no doors no flaps [TS]

  no upgrading after the fact it's just [TS]

  the Machine you get is a machine you get [TS]

  leaving the paving the way for the Mac [TS]

  Pro to take the opposite choice so some [TS]

  people are kind of annoyed at that but I [TS]

  feel like it is a reasonably smart [TS]

  differentiation and differentiation [TS]

  between these two machines so it's clear [TS]

  to you why would I buy this one machine [TS]

  over the other it's like what you want [TS]

  if you want everything in one [TS]

  and beautiful and elegant and simple and [TS]

  clean and sealed up and done and done [TS]

  it's the iMac and if you want the other [TS]

  thing it's the Mac Pro well I mean it to [TS]

  be fair we don't actually know yet well [TS]

  had a Mac Pro will be upgradable way [TS]

  down but we're hoping I mean the the [TS]

  tube was slightly upgradable like Ram [TS]

  you can you could add Ram that's it you [TS]

  could swap out the SSD to I don't think [TS]

  anybody ever ever sold the SSDs [TS]

  separately yeah it was it wasn't like I [TS]

  think it was like they MDOT - whatever [TS]

  thing it wasn't entirely you know you [TS]

  can be goodbye so the whole point is it [TS]

  was you could open the case and pull [TS]

  things out of it whereas this for all we [TS]

  know there's like it's glued together [TS]

  like I don't even know how easy just [TS]

  even get inside this thing I mean it's [TS]

  probably like every other iMac like you [TS]

  know all the components appear to face [TS]

  the back but you can't open it from the [TS]

  back probably so you probably have to [TS]

  like remove the screen and glued on [TS]

  right right and yes oh sorry it's [TS]

  probably like magnets like the other one [TS]

  but anyway yeah it's probably very [TS]

  similar to the construction of the [TS]

  27-inch iMac today so you probably can [TS]

  get into it but you don't want to [TS]

  because it involves so much like surgery [TS]

  on the screen that laypeople really [TS]

  shouldn't do it because you will risk [TS]

  damaging things we're getting dust in [TS]

  there or whatever so it's something that [TS]

  like yeah like Apple can do it like [TS]

  their technicians can do it but you [TS]

  shouldn't it looks pretty clean inside [TS]

  from the pictures they have on Apple's [TS]

  website if you look inside there if the [TS]

  back came off in a reasonable way it's [TS]

  pretty nicely laid out the RAM is really [TS]

  easy to get to it's sitting right there [TS]

  in little dim slots you could pull it [TS]

  right out like it's got a nice little [TS]

  heat pipe arrangement but the central [TS]

  heat sink and the two fans and like it [TS]

  looks nice in there it looks like they [TS]

  you know sweated the details and made it [TS]

  look a nice on the inside even though [TS]

  nobody's ever gonna see that except for [TS]

  an Apple technician and you know some [TS]

  part of it breaks or something yeah but [TS]

  ultimately like I am very excited about [TS]

  this machine I was I was a little [TS]

  excited about it when it was announced [TS]

  this past summer but I'm even more [TS]

  excited now that we're getting [TS]

  performance numbers and that we're [TS]

  getting the first reviews that have been [TS]

  out the best review that I've seen so [TS]

  far is the mkbhd review he's had it for [TS]

  he said about a week and he's a hard [TS]

  user only he [TS]

  creates and produces very high-end video [TS]

  content so he's he's editing like high [TS]

  high bandwidth like high resolution [TS]

  video on this thing and and that's [TS]

  really that really pushes it one of the [TS]

  major concerns I had with the iMac Pro [TS]

  when we first heard about it was I [TS]

  believe we talked about it in our live [TS]

  show at everybody this past summer which [TS]

  my main concern was like how does it [TS]

  handle being under load because my my [TS]

  regular 5k iMac it's a very graceful [TS]

  machine until you really ask it to do [TS]

  something hard and then you hear [TS]

  annoying fan noise and the fan the [TS]

  family spins up and it's loud and it's [TS]

  it's just kind of ungraceful and a Mac [TS]

  Pro historically has not done that um [TS]

  you know Mac Pros usually are able to [TS]

  take pretty much any workload and still [TS]

  be dead silent or close enough to sound [TS]

  that you won't hear it in an average [TS]

  room and so I really missed that like [TS]

  going back to a consumer level product [TS]

  like the regular iMac or a laptop like [TS]

  when it's when it when you put under [TS]

  load and you hear the fan spinning I [TS]

  always kind of feel like yeah this [TS]

  really isn't made to do this very much [TS]

  and you know so anyway III heat and how [TS]

  it deals with heat is is a big question [TS]

  mark for me upgradability is kind of a [TS]

  known thing at this point like the [TS]

  laptops haven't haven't been [TS]

  meaningfully upgradable since 2012 the [TS]

  desktops you know the the only thing [TS]

  that's been upgradeable about the [TS]

  desktops anytime recently has been RAM [TS]

  and even that is slowly fading away and [TS]

  the rest of the lineup so really to me [TS]

  like the upgrade ability thing is it's [TS]

  it's certainly something it's [TS]

  significant it matters I think more for [TS]

  long term servicing costs than [TS]

  necessarily getting a good deal up front [TS]

  like in the olden days you'd be able to [TS]

  buy a macbook or whatever or a power [TS]

  book and go get third-party ram from [TS]

  crucial or owz or something like that [TS]

  and save a bunch of money on a high-end [TS]

  figuration by buying the parts yourself [TS]

  and putting them in from third parties [TS]

  those days are long gone for the entire [TS]

  lineup desktop to laptop like the only [TS]

  thing you can still do that for is [TS]

  Casey's iMac and you shouldn't because [TS]

  look what happened to Katie's iMac I was [TS]

  waiting for somebody to make that joke [TS]

  and prepared to make it myself the [TS]

  reason you shouldn't but like I think [TS]

  the second use case is just longevity is [TS]

  if you buy it then you're happy like you [TS]

  buy a 32 gig arrangement and you're [TS]

  happy and it turns out that this thing [TS]

  is so reliable and the screen just looks [TS]

  gorgeous year after year that you're the [TS]

  thing is five years old and you're like [TS]

  you know what this thing still does [TS]

  everything I needed to do but I could [TS]

  use a little bit more RAM because I [TS]

  thought 32 would be enough for me to do [TS]

  what I needed to do forever but the [TS]

  latest version of adobe's whatever sweet [TS]

  is just a ram monster and I would really [TS]

  like to have 64 and that's where you [TS]

  want the ability to say yeah I used it [TS]

  for five years for 32 and it was great [TS]

  to extend the life of this machine [TS]

  letting me upgraded to 64 and you [TS]

  totally could on this machine if you [TS]

  could get inside it in a reasonable way [TS]

  but you can't so if there was a little [TS]

  RAM door you would yank out the RAM five [TS]

  years later and put in some new RAM and [TS]

  same caveats about third-party RAM yeah [TS]

  the whole reason Apple doesn't want you [TS]

  doing that makes sense [TS]

  but it really does extend the life of [TS]

  the machines if you can add an SSD to a [TS]

  thing that had a spinning disk or at a [TS]

  faster SSD or expand the RAM and that's [TS]

  basically all you've been able to do [TS]

  with any Mac for the longest time if [TS]

  you've been able to do anything at all [TS]

  but it does extend the life of your [TS]

  machines I mean just my Mac Pro's I'll [TS]

  be the obvious example where so much of [TS]

  the insides have been swapped and [TS]

  rotated and just gotten better and [TS]

  better over time that extended life of [TS]

  the machine if it was still the way I [TS]

  bought it when it was new it would be [TS]

  completely unusable right now oh yeah [TS]

  but like you know but that was also in [TS]

  many ways a product of the times that it [TS]

  went through like the SSD transition is [TS]

  you know that's not gonna happen again [TS]

  right listen maybe we move to like those [TS]

  RAM computers yeah but even just the [TS]

  video card I've got so like three or [TS]

  four video cards in this thing each one [TS]

  faster than the next that's really [TS]

  extended the the you know the gaming [TS]

  life of the machine yeah it's true but [TS]

  so but anyway like I feel like like most [TS]

  of those days are over like there was a [TS]

  good section on connected this week [TS]

  where Steven talked about the video card [TS]

  upgrade ability of previous Mac pros and [TS]

  like usually like you know people who [TS]

  want upgradeable Mac pros like they [TS]

  usually think of it if they haven't done [TS]

  it before they think of it from like a [TS]

  PC builder perspective where if you're [TS]

  in the PC world but you know building [TS]

  Windows PCs you can like swap out video [TS]

  cards with all sorts of different great [TS]

  options all the time everything costs [TS]

  very little money relatively speaking [TS]

  and you have tons of great options when [TS]

  the Mac world you [TS]

  only ever been limited to like the [TS]

  handful of cards that actually supported [TS]

  the back and this has been true of many [TS]

  peripherals even when you even when the [TS]

  Mac Pros work the bore the tower style [TS]

  like what you have them but I used to [TS]

  have like you couldn't just put in any [TS]

  PCI Express card in there and have it [TS]

  work like many of them would but most of [TS]

  them wouldn't and or they or they would [TS]

  work partially it was more than you'd [TS]

  think you did more than you think of you [TS]

  at the flashmob because it's mostly just [TS]

  based on the architecture like the Apple [TS]

  makes drivers forward usually for the [TS]

  architecture not just for a very [TS]

  specific card so a lot more cards than [TS]

  would work anything but even if it was [TS]

  just a handful of cards it's not yeah [TS]

  you don't have the selection of a PC [TS]

  builder but to have the option to put a [TS]

  faster card in there even if you only [TS]

  have literally one choice there's only [TS]

  one choice that you can buy that is [TS]

  faster than your current one it's way [TS]

  better than zero choices and one of the [TS]

  things I've put in the notes here this [TS]

  is a tweet from bare feets the website [TS]

  that does lots of this kind of testing [TS]

  emphasizes this fact they were you know [TS]

  they have benchmarks like these are [TS]

  these are OpenCL benchmarks so there are [TS]

  things that run on the GPU of the iMac [TS]

  Pro and then they pitted it against a [TS]

  2010 Mac Pro and the 2010 Mac Pro was [TS]

  faster why because the 2010 Mac Pro has [TS]

  a replaceable video card and like Margot [TS]

  said there's not a lot of choices for [TS]

  what you can put in the 2010 Mac Pro but [TS]

  there are a couple of them and one of [TS]

  them they were able to put in there was [TS]

  one that is that uses the same [TS]

  architecture as the GPU and the IMAX Pro [TS]

  so it same the Vega or every perhaps at [TS]

  64 so they put that card in and because [TS]

  it's the same architecture and because [TS]

  Mac OS has drivers for it because of the [TS]

  iMac pro it's able to use that card and [TS]

  just so happens to the card that they [TS]

  could fit in that gigantic 2010 Mac Pro [TS]

  tower that has tons of room for cooling [TS]

  and everything that card is just faster [TS]

  than the one that's in the iMac because [TS]

  the iMac is a slower card it's probably [TS]

  clocked slower because it's a more [TS]

  thermally compromised environment and so [TS]

  if what you care about is performance [TS]

  GPU performance in your 3d programmer [TS]

  and your open CL whatever program 2010 [TS]

  Mac Pro is faster than an iMac Pro and I [TS]

  think this also highlights the role of [TS]

  the Mac Pro might play will the Mac Pro [TS]

  have an upgradeable GPU [TS]

  maybe maybe not but I think the most [TS]

  important thing for these type of [TS]

  computers for the Mac Pro or even for [TS]

  the iMac Pro is to be super fast when [TS]

  you're release which I think this this [TS]

  qualifies like it's got lots of course [TS]

  in the CPUs and if you have an [TS]

  application then you use them it will [TS]

  really make a difference in your life [TS]

  the storage on this Mac Pro is really [TS]

  really fast that the iMac pro is really [TS]

  fast it's faster than the laptops right [TS]

  and so that makes it the fastest Mac [TS]

  Apple has because the old Mac Pro is so [TS]

  old and it's got you know the GPU is [TS]

  plenty fast right but to fulfill its [TS]

  role as the iMac Pro I feel like next [TS]

  year there needs to be a much faster GPU [TS]

  in the iMac Pro or you know like they [TS]

  needs they need to update the internals [TS]

  of this iMac Pro on a reasonable basis [TS]

  fine they're not upgradeable fine but [TS]

  Apple itself has to upgrade them and [TS]

  revise them because otherwise it will [TS]

  just get more and more embarrassing that [TS]

  your 2010 Mac Pro every year you can buy [TS]

  a new GPU to get you you know a 2x speed [TS]

  boost and whatever it is that you're [TS]

  doing and the iMac pro year after year [TS]

  like the internals don't get upgraded [TS]

  and if the Mac Pro is there isn't [TS]

  upgradable same story technology marches [TS]

  on and at the very very top end Apple [TS]

  has to be committed to releasing [TS]

  computers that are competitive with the [TS]

  top end and then revising their [TS]

  computers to continue to be competitive [TS]

  and if they don't want to revise them [TS]

  then merely make the certain components [TS]

  upgradable and people will buy a PC Vega [TS]

  card that is faster than the one that [TS]

  they had before and flash it and throw [TS]

  it in there and it will work because the [TS]

  drivers work with every car in that [TS]

  architecture and I'll be happy that my [TS]

  biggest concern here is the thermals and [TS]

  I believe them when they say they've [TS]

  gotten this - they've gotten the iMac [TS]

  enclosure to cool the the up to 500 watt [TS]

  load that they are putting in here that [TS]

  it's designed for but it seems like [TS]

  there's not a lot of headroom like and [TS]

  this was this was exactly the problem [TS]

  they had with the 2013 cylinder Mac Pro [TS]

  you know Craig federighi famously said [TS]

  that they designs those into a thermal [TS]

  corner it seems like the 2013 Mac Pro [TS]

  was designed with just barely enough [TS]

  cooling power and even then it wasn't [TS]

  really quite enough because of the the [TS]

  way the dual GPUs got so hot [TS]

  with this seems like they went into it [TS]

  like you know John you mentioned last [TS]

  thing we talked about this that like [TS]

  they went into the design brief of this [TS]

  seemingly with like fit Pro workstation [TS]

  grade components into the iMac enclosure [TS]

  well why like why couldn't it be a [TS]

  little bit differently shaped why [TS]

  couldn't it be designed an enclosure [TS]

  that supports program components like [TS]

  the reverse exactly and so because of [TS]

  that because they they went in with the [TS]

  apparent goal or requirement of fit this [TS]

  into the iMac case that was never [TS]

  designed for this amount of thermal load [TS]

  I mean the this case was designed in [TS]

  2012 or was launched in 2012 and it was [TS]

  launched with the first well with the [TS]

  second-generation 27-inch iMac even the [TS]

  retina one was not designed for this [TS]

  like it is a this was before the 5k we [TS]

  we have shoved so much stuff into the [TS]

  exact same sized enclosure that in 2012 [TS]

  they probably were not thinking of that [TS]

  when they designed the the shape and [TS]

  ventilation and and size and everything [TS]

  else with that in mind with the thermals [TS]

  as a severely limiting factor probably [TS]

  here I worried that on two fronts number [TS]

  one I worried like how much did they [TS]

  have to clock down the GPU and the CPUs [TS]

  to fit here and that gets to what you [TS]

  were saying of like if they're on the [TS]

  ragged edge of their thing if they've [TS]

  had to down clock things there are [TS]

  basically that they couldn't support the [TS]

  cooling and the only way they could get [TS]

  at things to fit is they had to say well [TS]

  that's just slightly down clock [TS]

  everything that and that I don't know if [TS]

  that's true that's just been a rumor for [TS]

  a while that like basically all the [TS]

  components are running it you know [TS]

  slower speeds from the GPUs and the CPUs [TS]

  and the RAM and every part of the system [TS]

  not a lot down clock but just a little [TS]

  bit and the only reason you do that is [TS]

  because you couldn't you couldn't cool [TS]

  them running at their their full speed [TS]

  and that I mean maybe that that's a [TS]

  compromise for like hey this is a slim [TS]

  computer it's all in one you don't have [TS]

  a big box you don't have a big thing or [TS]

  whatever I don't think it's unreasonable [TS]

  but it does you know optimistically say [TS]

  this now further emphasizes why you [TS]

  might want the upcoming Mac Pro because [TS]

  presumably that one will not have to [TS]

  down clock its components and so it [TS]

  they will therefore be faster and have [TS]

  more Headroom and everything so and that [TS]

  gets to your point Marco about if they [TS]

  had to down lock things that you're [TS]

  concerned like about all the same things [TS]

  about the twenty twelve about [TS]

  reliability and about noise and so it [TS]

  could be argued that the twenty thirteen [TS]

  MacPro the trash can the privileged [TS]

  noise above for reliability like it was [TS]

  very quiet all the time but maybe it [TS]

  should have been a little bit more noisy [TS]

  because there was lots of our reading [TS]

  problems with the GPUs right so maybe [TS]

  they made a different choice here that's [TS]

  one thing that I found lacking all the [TS]

  reviews is a rigorous testing of of the [TS]

  noise I mean they people gave their [TS]

  subjective you know reviews it or ever [TS]

  but I'm looking for someone who's like a [TS]

  fanatic loner then like I am about fan [TS]

  noise yeah and I wonder too like the [TS]

  reliability that that's not a small [TS]

  point you know because nothing in here [TS]

  is really serviceable because even Apple [TS]

  getting to it is is challenging I'm you [TS]

  know taking off the screen probably on [TS]

  everything and because they're all [TS]

  expensive custom components like this is [TS]

  not a machine that I would want to own [TS]

  out of warranty very long and I [TS]

  certainly would never buy one out of [TS]

  warranty and I would probably try to not [TS]

  sell it out of warranty because I worry [TS]

  that if it's operating at so close to [TS]

  the thermal limits of this enclosure [TS]

  because this enclosure wasn't ever [TS]

  designed for this it's it's similar to a [TS]

  laptop where like laptops often run like [TS]

  pretty warm if you push them like all [TS]

  the time and laptops tend not to last as [TS]

  long they tend to have reliability [TS]

  problems or components break or you have [TS]

  like heat fatigue and your GPU falls off [TS]

  or things like that like there's all [TS]

  sorts of problems with laptops with just [TS]

  things that run too hot because they're [TS]

  they have such constrain enclosures this [TS]

  is basically a giant workstation laptop [TS]

  in a big screen like in in the way that [TS]

  like it is clearly very thermally [TS]

  constrained the old Mac Pro towers and [TS]

  and even the trashcan Mac Pro those had [TS]

  a lot of headroom for most [TS]

  configurations the main problem the [TS]

  trashcan had was if you actually stress [TS]

  the GPUs that would cause a problem if [TS]

  you just stressed the CPU is fine [TS]

  because that that was it was designed [TS]

  with the kind of asymmetric triangle of [TS]

  heatsink in the middle there it was [TS]

  designed to have one very [TS]

  hot side before the CPU and two kind of [TS]

  hot sides which were the GPUs and as [TS]

  long as the kind of hot sides didn't get [TS]

  super hot it was fine but unfortunately [TS]

  that's not how people work anymore and [TS]

  they sold it as a GPU workstation which [TS]

  is kind of a problem so and but I think [TS]

  it could have been done as it was as [TS]

  quietly as it was if they just made a [TS]

  little bit bigger the main problem with [TS]

  the trash cam Mac Pro I think is [TS]

  probably just they wanted to make it [TS]

  small and they succeeded [TS]

  it was very impressively small but [TS]

  that's something that like nobody was [TS]

  really asking for and instead they've [TS]

  made it unreliable if you stress the [TS]

  GPUs anyway with this they feel like [TS]

  they've been the same thing with it [TS]

  they've they've they've kept it super [TS]

  thin and on the edges just like the [TS]

  current one and and the back of its [TS]

  pretty small too and they've kept the [TS]

  same enclosure but why nobody was asking [TS]

  for that and it has severely constrained [TS]

  them didn't even put that many more [TS]

  events like the vents are bigger but [TS]

  like the back of us is not covered with [TS]

  vents in places where the regular ones [TS]

  aren't they hid the vents behind the leg [TS]

  just like they always do so it looks [TS]

  clean from the back and that isn't it [TS]

  like not only are they keeping the case [TS]

  the same which you know presumably has [TS]

  big advantages in terms of cooling you [TS]

  don't have to come up with a whole new [TS]

  case design you don't have to come up [TS]

  with a whole new set of machines to [TS]

  carve out your case like it's just [TS]

  different some different slotting and [TS]

  the thing and you know whatever I don't [TS]

  know if that's actually as the biggest [TS]

  savings that as it might seem to be but [TS]

  there's something to be said for for you [TS]

  know keeping something's the same but [TS]

  they could have made the entire back of [TS]

  this thing like a giant cheese grater [TS]

  and that would certainly allow more air [TS]

  flow into and out of this thing and [TS]

  would have allowed you to have bigger [TS]

  lazier slower spinnings fans instead of [TS]

  two relatively fast ones pushing all the [TS]

  air out of the central thing and pulling [TS]

  all the air in through these little [TS]

  slits right so it's all very elegant [TS]

  looking and everything I mean and we [TS]

  don't you know we don't know where we [TS]

  are we're worrying more than anything [TS]

  else we're not saying this is there's [TS]

  going to be thermal problems even the [TS]

  down clocking thing is just something [TS]

  I've read there's a rumor and I haven't [TS]

  actually seen anyone pull out the the [TS]

  speeds for all the components and say [TS]

  here are the speeds for the components [TS]

  and if you put these things in a PC you [TS]

  would never collect them down like this [TS]

  if you had adequate cooling like so we [TS]

  don't know but but that gets to the [TS]

  heart of what you're talking about for [TS]

  like the reason you pay for all these [TS]

  expensive components eons and [TS]

  and all that other stuff is for the [TS]

  reliability factor if the reliability [TS]

  factor is undercut by the by the [TS]

  thermals in the form factor then that [TS]

  makes this a less compelling purchase [TS]

  right like I don't I don't want my [TS]

  professional workstation you know five [TS]

  thousand and up dollar computer to be [TS]

  operating very close to its thermal [TS]

  limits from day one because especially [TS]

  since I can't service anything because [TS]

  what that tells me is I don't think this [TS]

  is going to last as long as a tower and [TS]

  my current iMac I think has similar [TS]

  issues I think that I think that just [TS]

  inherent in the iMac design that like [TS]

  when you constrain things with thermals [TS]

  things don't last reliably as long as [TS]

  simple as that [TS]

  that's been the case for all computer [TS]

  hardware forever when you can give them [TS]

  more thermal Headroom they last longer [TS]

  and they run more reliably and they've [TS]

  run more gracefully under load and it's [TS]

  important to say what you said which is [TS]

  like we still don't know we haven't used [TS]

  this yet we none of us have won we [TS]

  haven't used it and the reviews have not [TS]

  been very clear about you know load and [TS]

  thermals and noise and everything else [TS]

  but that is a that is a major concern [TS]

  for me at least that they cram all the [TS]

  stuff into a case that was never [TS]

  designed to handle it and even though [TS]

  they did a lot of work on the cooling [TS]

  system and redesigning the internals and [TS]

  everything it was still a case that was [TS]

  not designed for a 500 watt workstation [TS]

  great components inside so that's my [TS]

  main concern is like is this really [TS]

  going to last and as I mentioned a few [TS]

  months ago I think I'm not sure I want [TS]

  to spend $6,000 on a great computer that [TS]

  is gonna be really flaky in three years [TS]

  you'll just sell it before then anyway [TS]

  so maybe but I don't so that stops that [TS]

  often I mean look I'm still using my [TS]

  2014 iMac now and so I really only seen [TS]

  the reviews of this I really want one [TS]

  I've really really do because I really [TS]

  want a speed upgrade I do so much [TS]

  parallel work that would benefit from [TS]

  those new cores so so much I really want [TS]

  the black trackpad would probably [TS]

  benefit from both the faster disks and [TS]

  the well I don't know if they've had [TS]

  this or faster and random success I [TS]

  haven't seen that but like I like I like [TS]

  the this subsystem I think is getting [TS]

  short shrift here because first of all [TS]

  the dis subsystem in the [TS]

  I think the 2016-2017 s was much faster [TS]

  than it was before people don't you know [TS]

  for a large data transfers like if you [TS]

  know for if you're doing like video or [TS]

  something like that and again I don't [TS]

  know how it is for random access with a [TS]

  bunch of small files and stuff but I [TS]

  love seeing stuff like that because [TS]

  people don't think oh it's got an SSD [TS]

  and they think SSD equals SSD equals SSD [TS]

  but these get faster and part of the [TS]

  advantages of buying expensive for a [TS]

  hardware is it should have the fastest [TS]

  as the the fastest interface and so the [TS]

  numbers coming out of this is like three [TS]

  gigs per second read and write sustained [TS]

  through the internal storage and that's [TS]

  great that is better than that's better [TS]

  than KC's a little MacBook adorable [TS]

  right a lot better and that's exactly [TS]

  they both have s's these are they the [TS]

  same speed they are not right that's [TS]

  what I want out of a pro machine and [TS]

  that's you know this machine for like [TS]

  processing 8k video and stuff like that [TS]

  that's a lot of data to move on and off [TS]

  the disk into and out of RAM and so you [TS]

  know all thumbs up on that that that's [TS]

  one of the things attracting me to the [TS]

  machine the reason I think that for so [TS]

  many applications like the very fastest [TS]

  Mac that Apple sells maybe won't make [TS]

  everything that you do faster especially [TS]

  if you don't take advantage of the [TS]

  multiple cores but you know if you do [TS]

  stuff that it uses lots of disks [TS]

  bandwidth even if you don't care about [TS]

  the CPU cores to the GPU this is the [TS]

  best disk machine if you just do stuff [TS]

  with GPUs this is far in a way you're [TS]

  gonna be the fastest GPU even if you [TS]

  don't care about the cores and you don't [TS]

  care about the disk like there's a lot [TS]

  to like even if you're not gonna use [TS]

  every aspect of this computer and yeah [TS]

  you have to pay for the other aspects [TS]

  too which is the reason people get [TS]

  cranky like I just want the good GPU I [TS]

  don't need Zeon's I don't need all of [TS]

  those stuff sucks well you get it all [TS]

  right is expensive it's just the way it [TS]

  is but having to pay for it all to get [TS]

  like a good GPU is way better than [TS]

  literally having no option except to buy [TS]

  a 2010 Mac Pro and a third-party in [TS]

  there yeah and the final thing I worry [TS]

  about here before we before anybody has [TS]

  one is is having this much heat going to [TS]

  be a problem for the screen you know the [TS]

  this this iMac was designed in 2012 when [TS]

  the components behind it were you know [TS]

  85 watt to 100 watt load probably now it [TS]

  can be up to 500 watt load [TS]

  is having that amount of heat right up [TS]

  against the back of the LCD panel going [TS]

  to be a problem for the longevity and [TS]

  quality of the LCD panel like are you [TS]

  gonna develop like a splotch in like the [TS]

  right quadrant near the middle where the [TS]

  processor is on the back like I don't [TS]

  know like how do LCDs handle very high [TS]

  heat being you know generated on a [TS]

  component that is stuck to the back of [TS]

  them for three years these are the kind [TS]

  of thing I'm worried about like this is [TS]

  like I'm so excited about this machine [TS]

  and I'm probably gonna buy at least one [TS]

  but I don't know like these are problems [TS]

  that I wouldn't worry about if it was a [TS]

  tower and I intend to buy the tower when [TS]

  that comes out to like the only reason [TS]

  I'm even talking about this now is [TS]

  because TIFF wants me to buy this so [TS]

  that way I can give it to her when I get [TS]

  the tower so that's probably what I'm [TS]

  going to do but it's hard not to think [TS]

  about those concerns when I went like [TS]

  I've been a little bit burned by IMAX in [TS]

  the past and I've had such great [TS]

  experiences with towers you know I'm [TS]

  surprised that you're you're harping on [TS]

  the thermal stuff so much because it [TS]

  seems to me like Apple has got to know [TS]

  what the thermal requirements for this [TS]

  thing are and with the with the the [TS]

  trashcan yes they design themselves into [TS]

  a corner in that they didn't have a lot [TS]

  of headroom which is what you said [TS]

  before but it's not like it was broken [TS]

  the moment to chipped and so well I [TS]

  don't think this is gonna be any [TS]

  different [TS]

  I really don't and having seen it very [TS]

  briefly I saw it you know when we were [TS]

  at WABC [TS]

  as did John and my record recollection [TS]

  of that that brief window of time I [TS]

  spent with it was that I could hear the [TS]

  fans even despite the fact that it was [TS]

  in a very loud demo room and they said [TS]

  that the fans were screaming [TS]

  deliberately because it was a very early [TS]

  pre-release model and they just you know [TS]

  wanted to crank the fans up to you know [TS]

  11 to make sure that whatever they were [TS]

  demoing on-screen which I don't even [TS]

  remember anymore you know didn't cause [TS]

  any problems and those fans I'm sorry to [TS]

  report gentlemen my recollection were [TS]

  they were loud now that doesn't mean [TS]

  they were gonna be loud always that [TS]

  doesn't mean they're gonna be loud every [TS]

  time you hit you know coming [TS]

  Dhar and xcode but it certainly seemed [TS]

  like it was capable of moving a whole [TS]

  lot of air and you you very what could [TS]

  be right I mean obviously all three of [TS]

  us are just pontificating at the moment [TS]

  but I would be really surprised if we [TS]

  see widespread thermal issues with this [TS]

  thing I mean it has been extensively [TS]

  redesigned on the inside specifically to [TS]

  avoid that very problem but so but like [TS]

  so is the trash can like and that's [TS]

  exactly what it had was maybe not from [TS]

  day one but a GPU failures due to heat [TS]

  right and so like that was that is that [TS]

  was the the major and I think the only [TS]

  sort of systemic hardware problem with [TS]

  the trashcans and marco is sitting there [TS]

  right now in front of a computer that he [TS]

  says runs the GPU too hot and his isn't [TS]

  even a pro so there's some reason to [TS]

  believe that Apple doesn't have the [TS]

  cooling stuff licked for stuff stuck to [TS]

  the back of a monitor even if it is not [TS]

  really hot stuff like this so I think it [TS]

  is reasonable to be concerned given the [TS]

  recent history about this and you know [TS]

  just worried like we don't know we'll [TS]

  find out right but there's the problem [TS]

  with this is the only real way to find [TS]

  that out is to be like me and be like [TS]

  I'm not gonna buy one of these for the [TS]

  first two years just to find out what [TS]

  the deal is but you can't you know you [TS]

  can't do that if you want one a day one [TS]

  you kind of have to pull the trigger and [TS]

  say whether like are you gonna buy it or [TS]

  you're not gonna buy it and that's where [TS]

  the worry comes in you won't have time [TS]

  if you're gonna buy it [TS]

  when it comes out within the first month [TS]

  or two you you won't have time to see in [TS]

  six months does everyone fire all their [TS]

  GPUs or not so you just kind of gotta [TS]

  cross your fingers or you know be [TS]

  prepared to sell it to somebody else or [TS]

  you know do what Marc was gonna do which [TS]

  may end up working out which is Marco [TS]

  gets the computer he stresses all the [TS]

  CPU cores encoding mp3s and compiling [TS]

  stuff and then he passes off to TIFF and [TS]

  she stresses GPU believes the CPU alone [TS]

  because she's just playing games on it [TS]

  mm-hmm [TS]

  and doing Photoshop stuff because also [TS]

  all GPU stuff yeah so you'll you'll [TS]

  spread the heat so you get a splotch on [TS]

  one side of the screen and then a spot [TS]

  yeah III really hope that it's good [TS]

  because all the reviews are very very [TS]

  positive and these are still as you know [TS]

  these are very early reviews but they're [TS]

  very promising and in quite how [TS]

  universally positive they [TS]

  and man skylake Zeon's are awesome [TS]

  according to these reviews like this is [TS]

  this is a big deal on the processor [TS]

  front because the ten core version that [TS]

  they've seated the reviewers seems to [TS]

  have 10 cores without a significant [TS]

  single core performance penalty like in [TS]

  in the previous generation little [TS]

  penalties all orden it's like it's [TS]

  slightly slower single core than the [TS]

  newest iMac at the top top spec but [TS]

  barely [TS]

  and it's obviously way faster and [TS]

  multi-threaded and so like the real [TS]

  promises put is supposedly that the 18 [TS]

  also doesn't take a small because it [TS]

  used to be like yeah you take a little [TS]

  hit but them and you go up to whatever [TS]

  the maximum core con is you take a [TS]

  pretty significant hit in a single core [TS]

  and so the theory of these is that the [TS]

  10 core takes a little hit the 18 core [TS]

  will be similar performance to the 10 [TS]

  core and single thread so it's like [TS]

  you're not you don't have to make this [TS]

  horrible choice between well if I want [TS]

  awesome performance in my parallel tasks [TS]

  I have to give up the single you just [TS]

  give up a tiny bit and it doesn't get [TS]

  worse as you go up in core we'll see if [TS]

  that's true but that's that's the that's [TS]

  the pitch the main concerns for most [TS]

  people here when they see this our price [TS]

  and lack of upgrade ability and those [TS]

  are very valid concerns but it's a very [TS]

  very good value for what you get for [TS]

  workstation parts like a lot of people [TS]

  look at the pro line as john said [TS]

  earlier because they want like a really [TS]

  good GPU for gaming se but that's never [TS]

  been with the Mac Pro has been very good [TS]

  at you could you could do that with it [TS]

  but it was a pretty inefficient way to [TS]

  do that [TS]

  you know price-wise and some and [TS]

  sometimes even performance wise you know [TS]

  you can get like GPUs that are pretty [TS]

  decent for gaming but that's not why [TS]

  they're selling them here and they don't [TS]

  expect people to buy it for that reason [TS]

  and when you compare it to the price of [TS]

  just building a gaming PC which John [TS]

  should have done years ago it's you know [TS]

  not even close and PC people and and Mac [TS]

  people who just want to play games look [TS]

  at this and say look I can build a [TS]

  gaming PC for way less money and that's [TS]

  true but you wouldn't put a Xeon in it [TS]

  and you wouldn't have like a wonderful [TS]

  apple 5k display in front of it and and [TS]

  you wouldn't have ECC Ram and [TS]

  workstation class other stuff and yeah [TS]

  I'd like the workstation class SSD like [TS]

  you wouldn't have all that stuff so when [TS]

  you [TS]

  actually go to like Dell or HP or [TS]

  somebody and spec out workstation grade [TS]

  components in a workstation that match [TS]

  the components in this that are actually [TS]

  like a Zeon with the same core count on [TS]

  a workstation GPU and workstation great [TS]

  SSD that's super fast if you can even [TS]

  get them to give you one it's actually [TS]

  pretty competitively priced for from [TS]

  what we know so far again we don't know [TS]

  the pricing at the upgrades yet but like [TS]

  the base price and what you get in the [TS]

  base model that's actually pretty [TS]

  reasonably priced it seems if you are [TS]

  looking at and if you spec up an iMac as [TS]

  I said like if you spec up a regular [TS]

  iMac into this territory of performance [TS]

  and capacity and everything you're [TS]

  already getting into about 4000 so to [TS]

  get like you know double the cores four [TS]

  five thousand is not unreasonable I [TS]

  don't think in addition to all the other [TS]

  upgrades so value I think from what we [TS]

  know so far it's probably fine lack of [TS]

  upgrade ability is a big thing but I [TS]

  think this is just the era in which we [TS]

  live now I think the reality our laptops [TS]

  again have been upgradable for four [TS]

  years for five years for most people if [TS]

  they haven't been upgradable [TS]

  meaningfully if at all and this is just [TS]

  the world we live in now and you know [TS]

  the reality is upgrades have been [TS]

  getting fewer and fewer they've been [TS]

  getting increasingly problematic like [TS]

  Casey has with his RAM because as things [TS]

  get super advanced they also tend to get [TS]

  more picky and more specialized and it's [TS]

  harder to find and make their party [TS]

  stuff that actually works look how long [TS]

  it takes people to make third-party [TS]

  things for like the the custom Apple SSD [TS]

  modules and a lot of laptops and and [TS]

  many of the recent desktops you know so [TS]

  like it's just things are even more [TS]

  advanced more specialized more [TS]

  integrated so I think the era of upgrade [TS]

  ability is really pretty much over for [TS]

  most computer things and I say this not [TS]

  happily because I always did that I [TS]

  participated very heavily in that I [TS]

  would always like you know buy my [TS]

  laptops with like base configuration and [TS]

  then spec them up with third-party parts [TS]

  to save money and to get you know bigger [TS]

  capacities and stuff and upgrade down [TS]

  the road with an SSD to make it faster [TS]

  and everything and that was a great time [TS]

  for a long time but I think the time is [TS]

  over you know the technology has moved [TS]

  on the market has moved on I think very [TS]

  few people really even would do that [TS]

  anymore even if they could and [TS]

  additionally now you can't so so it kind [TS]

  of closes the door on that and I think [TS]

  rather than hoping to go back to the [TS]

  time where you could buy John's Mac Pro [TS]

  in 2008 and keep it running all this [TS]

  time with just occasional upgrades of [TS]

  relatively inexpensive parts we're not [TS]

  going back to that time like we can't [TS]

  let the parts now or to specialize too [TS]

  good even John's computer you could [TS]

  never upgrade the processors you could [TS]

  ever upgrade the motherboard make it you [TS]

  know faster bus or anything like you [TS]

  just can't do that well you can but only [TS]

  within a range of like the three that [TS]

  were available at that time but you [TS]

  can't put in a new Xeon into your [TS]

  motherboard until it changes the socket [TS]

  like every two years yeah there was [TS]

  there was a long stretch of though where [TS]

  they kept the socket the same way it's [TS]

  not my model year I think well maybe [TS]

  actually was the 2009 someone recently [TS]

  posted a YouTube video I think they were [TS]

  doing in 2009 and they just upgraded the [TS]

  heck out of it to basically the fastest [TS]

  CPUs that still fit in the socket and [TS]

  all the other stuff fast and you know it [TS]

  wasn't super impressive but it was [TS]

  pretty neat it was mostly interesting [TS]

  just to watch exactly what it takes to [TS]

  do that if I can find the link I'll I'll [TS]

  throw it in the notes but but yeah [TS]

  you're right like eventually they change [TS]

  the stock and then you're you're out of [TS]

  that business or even just like you know [TS]

  the new ones require a certain type of [TS]

  bus speed or RAM type or Northbridge [TS]

  that yours doesn't have like stuff like [TS]

  that like there's always like the [TS]

  requirements change even if the socket [TS]

  doesn't change usually you can't [TS]

  meaningfully upgrade your processor [TS]

  after after after so efforts being sold [TS]

  you know and so like the error of [TS]

  upgradability has been fading for a long [TS]

  time and I think it's very well over now [TS]

  it's very very clearly over and so [TS]

  rather than hoping to go back to a time [TS]

  that we're never going to go back to a [TS]

  more productive approach now would just [TS]

  be like figure out how to operate in [TS]

  this new environment so and and base [TS]

  your purchases accordingly so you know [TS]

  if you're concerned about running the [TS]

  same computer for 10 years well you're [TS]

  gonna take a big risk on that you know [TS]

  they it might break after year five and [TS]

  require repair that is gonna be more [TS]

  than it's worth or it won't even be [TS]

  available anymore so like my approach to [TS]

  this is I have just gotten accustomed to [TS]

  selling computers after three years of [TS]

  using the more sometimes less [TS]

  you know I buy Apple care from concerned [TS]

  about service costs [TS]

  I don't buy it on phones as I mentioned [TS]

  because that's not use not for me but [TS]

  you know for max I sometimes do buy [TS]

  depending on pricing and concerns at the [TS]

  time once the Mac is out of Apple care [TS]

  coverage I don't want it anymore so I [TS]

  try to sell it before that it is [TS]

  currently I'm using my iMac does that [TS]

  just left its warranty and this is very [TS]

  unusual for me I don't usually do this [TS]

  but the new world where nothing is [TS]

  upgradeable might require you to either [TS]

  buy less perfect and less expensive gear [TS]

  more frequently than you used to and or [TS]

  get used to selling it which is not [TS]

  great it's not fun and it's not [TS]

  particularly profitable that's but but [TS]

  like you know you don't have to run [TS]

  everything into the ground necessarily [TS]

  if you want super high-end stuff the old [TS]

  way was buy something high and upgraded [TS]

  every 18 months [TS]

  you know until something better came out [TS]

  that you could upgrade the whole thing [TS]

  to the new way is you can't do that [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  you can just buy something new every [TS]

  three years or two years or four years [TS]

  and sell via button while it's still [TS]

  worth something it's this isn't a great [TS]

  solution for everybody but we don't have [TS]

  any choice like the world of [TS]

  upgradability is gone for for Macs and [TS]

  even many pcs so that world isn't is [TS]

  beyond us now so it's it's worth rather [TS]

  than dwelling on this too much and [TS]

  trying to fight this fight forever it's [TS]

  worth just figuring out like how can you [TS]

  operate in the new world it's coming [TS]

  back for the Mac Pro though even if it's [TS]

  just GPU upgrade ability I'm holding [TS]

  that hope you know we we again we still [TS]

  don't know anything about the Mac Pro [TS]

  because the GPU I mean it's not just [TS]

  important for me like the GPU is the I [TS]

  think the most critical just because [TS]

  GPUs get so much better year of year [TS]

  because the because of the inherent [TS]

  parallelism of the task that all they [TS]

  can basically you know as soon as a [TS]

  shrink they can fit more execution units [TS]

  and because the problem is so parallel [TS]

  like you actually get a win for that so [TS]

  they are still on that crazy path word [TS]

  you know year after year they just get [TS]

  they get faster roughly in pace with the [TS]

  density with transistor density there's [TS]

  a little bit of a [TS]

  problem with RAM and bandwidth and stuff [TS]

  like that but in general they like their [TS]

  speed increases year over year are so [TS]

  big that if you are not on that train if [TS]

  you can't participate in that train and [TS]

  you're doing something that is GPU [TS]

  intensive even if it's not gaming [TS]

  whatever maybe something GPU intensive [TS]

  involving video or whatever it's like [TS]

  you have to throw out the whole machine [TS]

  because eventually you know two years [TS]

  later the GPUs are four times as fast [TS]

  and you're just left in the dust so you [TS]

  have to be able to upgrade the GPU so [TS]

  please Apple make a machine where you [TS]

  can upgrade the GPU just one just one [TS]

  make it really expensive but yeah you [TS]

  gotta do it please I mean I'll just [TS]

  point out that when Apple had the Mac [TS]

  Pro roundtable and they announced that a [TS]

  new Mac Pro will exist some time not in [TS]

  2017 they never said upgradable they [TS]

  said modular I know that's a very [TS]

  different thing I'm just hoping I'm just [TS]

  holding out hope I'm not it's not [TS]

  founded on anything other than like then [TS]

  just process of elimination of like how [TS]

  could you differentiate from the iMac [TS]

  Pro yeah the screen will be separate so [TS]

  that's that's the modular part right it [TS]

  could be upgradable it could be it could [TS]

  some part of it I'm just I'm trying I'm [TS]

  trying to my hopes up because this is [TS]

  still Apple and modern Apple at that and [TS]

  so like the chances of it being that [TS]

  upgradable if at all I I would not [TS]

  consider that a sure thing like if [TS]

  you're looking at the iMac Pro and [TS]

  you're thinking oh I want to hold out [TS]

  for the Mac Pro because it'll be [TS]

  upgradable I would not consider that a [TS]

  safe assumption it might be upgradable [TS]

  but modular simply means like you will [TS]

  probably be able to configure it with [TS]

  lots of different configurations up [TS]

  front like the iMac Pro comes with one [TS]

  CPU and one GPU and they're both you [TS]

  know within a certain range of options [TS]

  here maybe the Mac Pro will come will [TS]

  let you pick two CPUs or two GPUs or one [TS]

  CPU and three GPUs I don't know like [TS]

  that that's modular it doesn't mean any [TS]

  of this stuff is upgradable necessarily [TS]

  it might be upgradable but we have no [TS]

  indication that it will be and sure it's [TS]

  I would certainly not bet on it but [TS]

  anyway the other point is that with the [TS]

  Mac Pro we don't actually know when it's [TS]

  coming all Apple said was not in 2017 [TS]

  it might be 2018 it could arrive the [TS]

  first day of 2018 so soon 2017 ends any [TS]

  day could be MacPro day yeah New Year's [TS]

  Day in the next decade any day could be [TS]

  Mac from yeah or it could come out in [TS]

  2025 yep or it could come out never they [TS]

  could just change your mind say you know [TS]

  what actually we we're not gonna do it [TS]

  anymore like it's it's not even a sure [TS]

  thing that's going to exist what it [TS]

  means is that every day every day you [TS]

  wake up in 2018 and later could be Mac [TS]

  Pro day this is like KC's doom like [TS]

  daily worrying every week the mag Pearl [TS]

  will be announced and released speaking [TS]

  we know it's like we're we're all [TS]

  waiting for WABC and if they miss next [TS]

  year then we're waiting for next year's [TS]

  WWC you know like so we do have some [TS]

  thing to hang our hat on yeah but like [TS]

  the the Mac Pro could come New Year's [TS]

  Day or it could come in June or it could [TS]

  come in December or could come in 2018 [TS]

  like so for anybody deciding whether to [TS]

  buy an iMac Pro if you're at all on the [TS]

  fence about whether you might want to [TS]

  Mac Pro instead yeah just just buy it [TS]

  and sell like Marco well yeah because [TS]

  it's like you don't really know when [TS]

  that's coming or even again you don't [TS]

  even really know if the Mac Pro is [TS]

  coming like yes apples had they're [TS]

  working on it but things could change [TS]

  over time you never know like it's not [TS]

  it until it's actually out you can't [TS]

  guarantee that it will be available like [TS]

  you can't guarantee this thing will [TS]

  exist and because we don't know anything [TS]

  about it or even when or if it's coming [TS]

  out then I think if you are really [TS]

  tempted by the iMac Pro and you're not [TS]

  patient and you're you know and you you [TS]

  need to buy something soon and you [TS]

  really can't wait until June just to see [TS]

  if it'll comes out by then then you know [TS]

  this isn't a bad option at this I have a [TS]

  feeling my prediction here what's going [TS]

  to happen here [TS]

  the iMac Pro is probably going to be so [TS]

  good and it's probably going to satisfy [TS]

  so many Pro needs that when the Mac Pro [TS]

  does finally come out it's going to sell [TS]

  really badly and then Apple will use [TS]

  that as justification to really finally [TS]

  kill it I I expect the next [TS]

  MacPro to be a single release product [TS]

  line I don't expect it to ever get [TS]

  another update after its initial release [TS]

  because I don't think it's going to sell [TS]

  well and I say that not happily because [TS]

  I want that computer but the iMac Pro I [TS]

  think is going to solve so many Pro [TS]

  needs for so many people possibly even [TS]

  me it's going to be good enough it's [TS]

  also like and the timing of this is also [TS]

  going to exacerbate this where people [TS]

  who have been dying for a high-end Mac [TS]

  Pro update for the last three years [TS]

  they're gonna be like a lot a lot of [TS]

  that demand is gonna go to the iMac Pro [TS]

  simply because it's out first and so [TS]

  then when the Mac Pro comes out with [TS]

  probably the same generation components [TS]

  at least the same generation processor [TS]

  maybe GPUs will have a small update by [TS]

  then but like when the Mac Pro comes out [TS]

  say in six months with the same [TS]

  generation stuff at a higher price point [TS]

  after so many people have had six months [TS]

  to just buy the iMac instead I really [TS]

  don't think it's gonna sell very well [TS]

  well the 8k screen will be a big draw [TS]

  that Y had to see honestly like I do [TS]

  wonder like if they're gonna do an 8k [TS]

  screen because they all they said was [TS]

  they were doing a pro display they [TS]

  didn't say what size or anything about a [TS]

  more optimistic about upgradable GPUs [TS]

  then how about the aka screen but we'll [TS]

  see yeah so but like we don't so all [TS]

  this is to say like if you're true if [TS]

  you think I'm up buying this but you are [TS]

  making an assumption about the next Mac [TS]

  Pro really questioned that assumption [TS]

  like are you really like first of all [TS]

  can you just wait and see if you can [TS]

  wait and see wait and see but you don't [TS]

  know how long the way that way it's [TS]

  going to be and and then secondly like [TS]

  is what you're waiting for actually [TS]

  going to happen do we actually know that [TS]

  is it likely to happen have they said [TS]

  anything about it like and chances are [TS]

  the answer to all those things as we [TS]

  don't know or no ultimately I have a [TS]

  feeling this is the new Mac Pro in [TS]

  practice like the weather they release [TS]

  to me next summer that nobody buys or [TS]

  not it's a different story but I think [TS]

  we're going to look back on this point [TS]

  in Apple history when we're all even [TS]

  older man in in a few years on this [TS]

  podcast hopefully talking about I [TS]

  remember when the only when I might Pro [TS]

  came out and when the Mac Pro became an [TS]

  iMac basically like [TS]

  I think this is the new line of Mac Pros [TS]

  for the long term I don't think that's [TS]

  necessarily a bad thing it might not be [TS]

  we have a lot more to discuss about this [TS]

  but we have gone long and we have an [TS]

  interesting holiday schedule coming up [TS]

  very very soon so I think we should [TS]

  probably just stop here and we will talk [TS]

  next week about the press tour with this [TS]

  and we'll talk next week about the new [TS]

  interesting hardware and encryption sort [TS]

  of things [TS]

  what is it the t2 chip is that right [TS]

  it's all sorts of cool stuff in there [TS]

  yeah so we have we have plenty more to [TS]

  say and as much as I joke I'm actually [TS]

  pretty interested to talk about some of [TS]

  this stuff so we will save that for next [TS]

  week thank you to our sponsors this week [TS]

  betterment hover and fracture and we [TS]

  will see you next week even as it was [TS]

  accidental accidental [TS]

  research Marco and Casey wouldn't let [TS]

  him cuz it was accidentally was [TS]

  accidental but you can find the show [TS]

  notes at ADP CAS pyl ISS so that's Casey [TS]

  less and a are Co a RM ante Marco Arment [TS]

  SI r AC Syracuse [TS]

  so Casey do you want us to talk even [TS]

  more about the Mac Pro about the Mac Pro [TS]

  know about the iMac Pro and whatever [TS]

  that's fine if you look at like you know [TS]

  what this iMac Pro is versus what the [TS]

  2013 Mac Pro was and technically still [TS]

  is this is a Mac Pro it just happens to [TS]

  have a screen glued to the front of it [TS]

  but like it's really no less upgradable [TS]

  than the 2013 Mac Pro was it's way [TS]

  faster in every way it has more options [TS]

  bigger you know it's and it supports [TS]

  desktop retina correctly I think rent [TS]

  Redmond SSD upgrade I think it's not [TS]

  really more an S is the upgrade that's a [TS]

  lot like it was so easy to take it was [TS]

  so easy to take the top off that of the [TS]

  trashcan it comes right off just a [TS]

  little loop comes right off and right [TS]

  there in front of you totally reachable [TS]

  is the the SSD and the the RAM that's [TS]

  was the SSD actually see so many sure [TS]

  it's just it was just on the outside one [TS]

  of the boards you just yank it out of [TS]

  the slot oh yeah they do saw one yeah [TS]

  Mac Pro 2013 at this point I would do [TS]

  that for my for my wife's iMac I wish I [TS]

  could upgrade the SSD right now because [TS]

  I would pay for a two terabyte one it's [TS]

  $1,200 by third parties no this is third [TS]

  party this is from ODBC that's that's [TS]

  for the Mac Pro though I'm assuming it's [TS]

  not the same thing in the in the iMac no [TS]

  you're right in the iMac its are very [TS]

  different but like anyway you know for [TS]

  all intents and purposes like if Apple [TS]

  came out and said this is the Mac Pro [TS]

  now like if they'd if they didn't pre [TS]

  announced the existence of a new modular [TS]

  one next year or not this year we would [TS]

  grumble for a few weeks about how it [TS]

  wasn't have gradable I would grumble [TS]

  forever yeah I was gonna say a few weeks [TS]

  you know forever no matter what they [TS]

  really know the reason the reason I [TS]

  would grumble forever hasn't have [TS]

  anything to do with almost anything we [TS]

  discussed except for one part the fact [TS]

  that things might be down o'clock [TS]

  because the whole point of the top line [TS]

  of the computer is to be the fastest as [TS]

  it can be and so don't take the world's [TS]

  fastest parts and then down clock them [TS]

  right that's that's the biggest thing [TS]

  you need to have a world's fastest Mac [TS]

  that is not intentionally hobbled by [TS]

  some stupidity now if they change the [TS]

  iMac [TS]

  to not do that and to run all the parts [TS]

  at their maximum speed to get the [TS]

  highest Bend parts from all the [TS]

  manufacturers right and run them at [TS]

  their high bin speed then yeah I would [TS]

  be less crumbly but if this specific one [TS]

  with its room or down clock parts that [TS]

  cannot be your top-of-the-line computer [TS]

  because it's so it's it's like it's like [TS]

  you know this is this is our [TS]

  top-of-the-line car it's you know it's [TS]

  the the the Acura NSX right but we've [TS]

  detuned the engine by putting a [TS]

  restrictive exhaust on it so we've cut [TS]

  off one hundred horsepower that's just [TS]

  sitting there like what are you what are [TS]

  you even doing but you could make that [TS]

  argument for everything though you can [TS]

  make that argument for any car everyone [TS]

  every freaking car is an aftermarket [TS]

  exhaust okay a car car's a bad example [TS]

  but but for silicon parts like they're [TS]

  been to a certain clock speed and the [TS]

  more expensive ones are the ones that [TS]

  can go faster right and to not run them [TS]

  at at their top speed or to by slower [TS]

  speed chips because you can't cool them [TS]

  you've made a bad top-end computer then [TS]

  like you're leaving money on the table [TS]

  like you're charging enough money that [TS]

  you could put in the top bin part but [TS]

  instead you buy the slower you're worse [TS]

  you buy the top bin one but don't run it [TS]

  at its maximum clock speed that is just [TS]

  in embarrassment you can't do that you [TS]

  gotta have a fastest computer with all [TS]

  the fastest stuff that's the whole point [TS]

  of the top of your line is to be the top [TS]

  of your line I I think you're getting a [TS]

  little overly worked up if if some if [TS]

  some GPU is running at 90% of its [TS]

  maximum capacity who cares where you [TS]

  leave that 10% therefore who cares it's [TS]

  still infinitely better people who [TS]

  people who want the very fastest [TS]

  computer and are willing to pay for it [TS]

  that's who cares that is but by [TS]

  definition John that is the fastest [TS]

  computer this is all ball because it's [TS]

  hypothetical but like in this [TS]

  hypothetical world that is the fastest [TS]

  computer that Apple sells there is no [TS]

  other discussion to be had yeah I know [TS]

  but like but it's not it's you know what [TS]

  I mean like it's like saying whatever [TS]

  Mac Apple if the fastest computer sold [TS]

  was the adorable it's like but that is [TS]

  the fast you would know that it is [TS]

  possible to make a faster one by doing [TS]

  obvious things right [TS]

  do you enjoy your PC then like what do [TS]

  you know I'm showing this like because [TS]

  the role of it is to be the top [TS]

  you read my case for the true MacPro [TS]

  successor like this is the whole the [TS]

  whole point of the your top-of-the-line [TS]

  computer right I mean I guess yeah I I'm [TS]

  not arguing that there should be a top [TS]

  of line computer I'm not arguing that it [TS]

  should be really damn fast but if you're [TS]

  but if you're worried about a processor [TS]

  being 4 gigahertz instead of 4.1 like [TS]

  who cares it's still people who buy this [TS]

  computer care that's ok it's like it's [TS]

  because I'm not saying like oh you have [TS]

  to do something magical to make it [TS]

  faster than everybody else but like [TS]

  don't take a part that runs at 4.1 and [TS]

  run it for why like what why oh we had [TS]

  to do that to fit into thermal envelope [TS]

  and it gets back to a Margo they're [TS]

  talking about who's asking you to fit it [TS]

  in the skinny case versus who is asking [TS]

  you to get the fastest everywhere [TS]

  goodbye people buy a whole new computers [TS]

  for a 10% speed bump to things that they [TS]

  do right they say my computer is too [TS]

  slow if I get 10 to 20 percent [TS]

  improvement on this it makes a [TS]

  difference in my workday in my you know [TS]

  compile cycle in my render time em or [TS]

  whatever right they'll buy a whole new [TS]

  computer for a double-digit percentage [TS]

  speed increase and you're saying I'm [TS]

  willing to leave double-digit speed [TS]

  ingress on the table so I can fit it [TS]

  into a skinny case it's not asking for [TS]

  that so that's why I'm saying I would [TS]

  grumble forever about this because it is [TS]

  a wrongheaded thing to say we're going [TS]

  to make the fastest computer we can for [TS]

  our most demanding users but we're gonna [TS]

  do a super obvious thing that makes it [TS]

  slower in some small way so you're at [TS]

  you keep asking who cares I'm telling [TS]

  you who cares mean you don't care but I [TS]

  care [TS]