Roderick on the Line

Ep. 275: "I Want an Adult"

 

  what are you paying for the place [TS]

  exactly where are we staying yeah am I [TS]

  staying with you that only happened [TS]

  because in that four months she and I [TS]

  talked on Twitter with a bunch of other [TS]

  people who were also fun and funny all [TS]

  day you know by the time she made that [TS]

  phone call we knew each other yeah yeah [TS]

  and what when would that have ever [TS]

  happened before you know so anyway this [TS]

  proposal was like why don't we just buy [TS]

  it and and declare it a UNESCO site and [TS]

  we'll govern it and we won't let Nazis [TS]

  and we won't let boobs and butts and we [TS]

  will restore it to what it was which was [TS]

  like a like a true human accomplishment [TS]

  and every was like between a national [TS]

  park and a Superfund site right what [TS]

  starts as a Superfund site but we'd like [TS]

  to eventually turn it into a national [TS]

  parks leaves a little bit and it seemed [TS]

  it seemed briefly plausible like wow [TS]

  right the people at Twitter don't care [TS]

  anymore all they want as money they just [TS]

  want to get out I think probably most of [TS]

  them and give them their money you know [TS]

  they made their money gets to keep their [TS]

  accounts yeah you guys that's great jack [TS]

  like here's some money is that what you [TS]

  is that would that make you happy but [TS]

  you can't beam back to your home planet [TS]

  yeah you can go now go with your money [TS]

  human emotions are strange [TS]

  I mean emotions and leave it to us give [TS]

  it back to us right but that idea that [TS]

  every single thing needs to be monetized [TS]

  to within an inch of its life that [TS]

  Facebook doesn't have enough money and [TS]

  that they need a billion more customers [TS]

  because they need what to control [TS]

  everything right what's your end game [TS]

  what's the end game this you'll know [TS]

  this will have been super successful in [TS]

  what happens when what happened yeah [TS]

  precisely and is the stuff you're doing [TS]

  now is this the direction that you [TS]

  consider moving too [TS]

  other success and are we we are nothing [TS]

  right we are just we a hundred thousand [TS]

  people come and go every second matrix [TS]

  batteries we're pod boys yeah I'm saying [TS]

  just can't see on Ariz or the garden [TS]

  hose in our neck I want to reach out to [TS]

  people and say do you have a good idea [TS]

  like the guy that had the idea of URLs [TS]

  gave it to the world for free I mean he [TS]

  just said here you go right I'm not [TS]

  gonna copyright dot-com this is a thing [TS]

  that needed to happen right and here it [TS]

  is like I built it it didn't take that [TS]

  much it was like a brainstorm I had and [TS]

  it took a couple of little bits to build [TS]

  but it didn't you know the idea that [TS]

  Twitter or Facebook represent that some [TS]

  intellectual property that we we we all [TS]

  know was the result of like a one night [TS]

  brainstorm and offend a few weeks of [TS]

  coding like it isn't the same as [TS]

  building the the infrastructure to bring [TS]

  water to New York City right it just [TS]

  isn't it was some guys in a dorm who [TS]

  were like hahaha what if we what if we [TS]

  made a website where you could judge [TS]

  people's faces and thumbs-up thumbs-down [TS]

  I mean it was it was like sick and it [TS]

  score from the from the very dawn but [TS]

  but Twitter I mean you know you know how [TS]

  Twitter got me and you were there like [TS]

  it was it was like oh I don't here why [TS]

  don't we do this it'll be like an SMS [TS]

  for friends and we can say like oh I'm [TS]

  going to the taco place and then [TS]

  everybody you won't have to text [TS]

  everybody individually had a good run [TS]

  like that's not a fucking idea that's [TS]

  worth a billion dollars it's just a [TS]

  fucking idea that you could have had and [TS]

  given as much as you a little bit of [TS]

  what happens in pharmaceuticals where [TS]

  you come up with no like an axiom or [TS]

  something they say you come up with [TS]

  always the big allergy one like claritin [TS]

  you come up with some new formulation [TS]

  and you get a patent on it for how [TS]

  many years like five years or whatever [TS]

  is and then you have to re-up your [TS]

  patent so you've got to figure out what [TS]

  most of them I think end up doing is [TS]

  slightly changing the delivery mechanism [TS]

  and getting a patent on that we were [TS]

  able to like string this out longer and [TS]

  longer bridge like MIT can we Houston do [TS]

  we like start giving the clarity in a [TS]

  way at prices that are normal for [TS]

  everybody it's like well that's not [TS]

  really how this model works right we [TS]

  move the button yay for us sorry about [TS]

  the Nazis yeah you see that a lot where [TS]

  where I feel like I've seen that several [TS]

  startups that I that I have like sort of [TS]

  tangential knowledge of where they had [TS]

  15 employees and they felt like they [TS]

  needed 50 in order to build the business [TS]

  so they hired 50 but then they've got 50 [TS]

  employees and they need to earn money to [TS]

  pay the 50 employees so they need a [TS]

  hundred employees to make enough money [TS]

  to pay the 50 employees and it's just [TS]

  this like this mentality of the [TS]

  voracious growth that no one wants to [TS]

  run a 15 person company anymore that's [TS]

  really good and sleek and makes an [TS]

  income for everybody and is stable and [TS]

  it's not growing by leaps and bounds and [TS]

  you're not gonna sell it for fifteen [TS]

  million dollars when you're 28 years old [TS]

  it's just a job that you gave yourself [TS]

  but that's like pleasing and you go home [TS]

  at night and you feel satisfied by your [TS]

  work like my mom was talking about her [TS]

  brother the other day and she said well [TS]

  he retired from you know so hyoe at 50 [TS]

  and I said he retired at 50 she said [TS]

  yeah that's what used to happen you'd [TS]

  started a job when you were 20 and then [TS]

  50 you'd worked there 30 years and you [TS]

  retired with a full retirement I was [TS]

  like am I just hearing about this for [TS]

  the first time is this what people talk [TS]

  about when they say this that things [TS]

  have changed what do you mean what did [TS]

  he do then oh you know he got a sailboat [TS]

  and he did some stuff and I'm like 50 [TS]

  I'm 50 yeah [TS]

  I'm 50 I don't I don't have what are you [TS]

  talking about yeah she's like think [TS]

  about the people that join [TS]

  the army when they're 20 Beirut ISIL [TS]

  vote for a retired of forty retired [TS]

  because she was rich or been retired [TS]

  because she had done twenty years at a [TS]

  company and guys she used Excel in the [TS]

  Air Force for twenty years twenty years [TS]

  she retired yeah from the Air Force yeah [TS]

  yeah with with my fears thank you for [TS]

  your service freedom you know Mike [TS]

  Squires has did did a pretty good stint [TS]

  in the Marine Corps really Mike grew up [TS]

  in a in a very rural Washington town and [TS]

  the and the kind of the writing was on [TS]

  the wall about how life was gonna go and [TS]

  he decided that he was not gonna go that [TS]

  way [TS]

  and joined the Marines the family math [TS]

  business yeah he was he said you know [TS]

  I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take over [TS]

  from my from the from the weakest uncle [TS]

  as the young younger enforcer for the [TS]

  yeah uncle Tony [TS]

  sorry pal come take a walk with us in [TS]

  the desert the keys to the pickup truck [TS]

  you shall wear the crap he joined the [TS]

  Marines that he got out he got out of [TS]

  his little town he got out of the cycle [TS]

  of rural shittiness took the midnight [TS]

  train going anywhere [TS]

  did the streetlight people and then very [TS]

  crucially he did not go back to his [TS]

  little shitty town with his duffel bag [TS]

  and like hug his high school sweetheart [TS]

  he went to Seattle and he bought a bass [TS]

  guitar and was like fuck it but what he [TS]

  did in the Marines was sat at a [TS]

  typewriter yeah and he's got that's a [TS]

  lot of people I mean he go [TS]

  big biceps and he's got tattoos that say [TS]

  like USMC anyway impugning my Corps or [TS]

  Marines in general but that's that's [TS]

  part of what makes me laugh in a way [TS]

  I'll never laugh publicly is like when [TS]

  everybody's always just jizzing [TS]

  themselves so hard over the troops in [TS]

  the first-responder is that it's like [TS]

  yeah but you know they also they got [TS]

  their education and their pension and [TS]

  everything paid for in a way that my [TS]

  kids teacher does not the you know the [TS]

  the support staff Merlyn is just as [TS]

  important as those frontline troops the [TS]

  wrestler is important as the notes I am [TS]

  mocking Mike just because it's gender [TS]

  salutely kick my ass sure even right now [TS]

  even as fat as he is you know one of [TS]

  those one of those things when I'm [TS]

  sitting around not thinking about [TS]

  burying shipping containers in the [TS]

  desert to put Donald Rumsfeld yeah you [TS]

  know a big a big a big idea that isn't [TS]

  really even that big is the idea of [TS]

  national service that encompasses things [TS]

  other than the army and you know the [TS]

  Israeli model of 18 to 20 everybody [TS]

  serves but you can choose to work for [TS]

  the National Park Service cut trail [TS]

  leave cut trail he worked for the [TS]

  Department of the Interior you work for [TS]

  the National Endowment for the Arts you [TS]

  you know you do two years of public [TS]

  service in one of a million different [TS]

  ways but it'd be considered equivalent [TS]

  to military service because if you do [TS]

  totally agree voluntary work at the at [TS]

  the National Endowment for the Arts [TS]

  making it easier or you work for the [TS]

  Department of Transportation like that [TS]

  is that is an equivalent service to your [TS]

  country and your people and the idea [TS]

  that there you know [TS]

  there are there are people risking their [TS]

  lives on battlefields but in question [TS]

  you know if the person who is driving [TS]

  the truck that's bringing the bottled [TS]

  water to the people that are doing that [TS]

  work on the battlefield [TS]

  is as integral to that machine as the [TS]

  fighter then the people who are making [TS]

  the roads back home work better and the [TS]

  people that are making America stronger [TS]

  by having a more devoted national [TS]

  commitment to the arts are also engaged [TS]

  in the same battle my kids my kids [TS]

  principal works about 12 hours a day and [TS]

  can't afford to live in San Francisco [TS]

  yeah she's in East Bay yeah [TS]

  and that's that's insane and that is a [TS]

  terrible miss allocation of resources [TS]

  but also it is it speaks to a like a [TS]

  like a core to climb in our values that [TS]

  I cannot I cannot yell enough about yeah [TS]

  and I think people are both you know [TS]

  people people may feel like this is all [TS]

  some kind of crusty attitude and that [TS]

  that once we turn the next corner and [TS]

  we're all wearing heads-up displays and [TS]

  walking around with Madame Butterfly [TS]

  strapped in our Underpants I think it [TS]

  does the cloud is like we are producing [TS]

  7 milliliters effluvium hour it doesn't [TS]

  waste your check it doesn't moisture [TS]

  check - bump it was Nixon that won it [TS]

  that took us into China right yeah it's [TS]

  affixing yeah and as much as that's a [TS]

  Mussolini made the trains run on time [TS]

  argument yeah I also feel that it may [TS]

  one day be a liberal Democrat or a [TS]

  liberal politician that reintroduces the [TS]

  idea of a compulsory national service a [TS]

  peacetime draft [TS]

  but that draft includes a and to work at [TS]

  the Department of Transportation is [TS]

  considered equivalent to having been in [TS]

  the Army because because it is [TS]

  ultimately and that if we you know we we [TS]

  spend I spent a lot of time in the last [TS]

  year talking to people in the military [TS]

  and officers in the military and for the [TS]

  most part they say the same thing which [TS]

  is that they consider themselves [TS]

  apolitical [TS]

  but that they support the military and [TS]

  so they support politicians that support [TS]

  the military and those politicians tend [TS]

  to be more Republican than Democrats so [TS]

  that's how they fall but really right [TS]

  they support the military and that is [TS]

  their church and when you say to them [TS]

  well alright but what about this weapons [TS]

  platform that is a hundred times over [TS]

  budget has been proved over and over [TS]

  again to not work it was designed at a [TS]

  time when the mission was different than [TS]

  it is now so there's no mission for it [TS]

  anymore it's a total boondoggle and if [TS]

  they keep crashing how do you feel about [TS]

  that and they're like well the billions [TS]

  of dollars that we pour into that go to [TS]

  the people that work for the military [TS]

  and the companies that support the [TS]

  military so even though it is a [TS]

  shitstorm I believe that in the end it [TS]

  benefits the country because it benefits [TS]

  the military and that's the point at [TS]

  which you realize like oh right they are [TS]

  I understand that they're nonpartisan [TS]

  but also they should not be in charge of [TS]

  that decision mm-hmm because they have a [TS]

  they can't be blamed for self-interest [TS]

  makes it sound more nefarious than it is [TS]

  but they they can't be faulted for doing [TS]

  the thing that they think is right that [TS]

  happens to support I mean they do yeah I [TS]

  can fault them but but i but i but i do [TS]

  feel like we have listeners we have less [TS]

  producer we should thank the further [TS]

  service they love it thank you all for [TS]

  your service [TS]

  I know we do and I know and I mean I'm [TS]

  engaged in this debate with with several [TS]

  of them offline but they lady M me and [TS]

  they say that thing you said is wrong [TS]

  and I say you're wrong and then we have [TS]

  a lively discussion because everybody [TS]

  loves to start that way but but note [TS]

  that that is why we have civilian [TS]

  oversight of the military but the [TS]

  problem is that if you put into office [TS]

  people that get into office by saying I [TS]

  will reflexively support the military [TS]

  without ever questioning them yeah you [TS]

  get into this situation where you know [TS]

  the like in Rome I hate to oh my god I'm [TS]

  so going to cliche rule was as soon as [TS]

  you stepped into Rome as a general or as [TS]

  a as a Roman soldier you no longer were [TS]

  in the Army in the city of Rome you were [TS]

  a civilian you could not enter Rome as a [TS]

  member of the army so the armies were [TS]

  always outside of Rome [TS]

  and the reason was that they were [TS]

  worried obviously that or it was a way [TS]

  of dealing with the fact that a that a [TS]

  general could come back from it from a [TS]

  triumphant battle and march into the [TS]

  city and get himself elected the Caesar [TS]

  in the in the in the frenzy of [TS]

  outpouring of joy at the returning [TS]

  conquering army so the army would return [TS]

  and as soon as they walked in to town [TS]

  they were civilians and it kept them you [TS]

  know it kept them in check and it's not [TS]

  that Roman generals didn't sometimes [TS]

  ascend and a couple of notable times [TS]

  marched in anyway but that was the that [TS]

  was their mentality their way of church [TS]

  and stating and we've kind of lost that [TS]

  we've lost a crucial element of civilian [TS]

  oversight [TS]

  because our civilian our civilian like [TS]

  branch of government has abdicated its [TS]

  oversight responsibilities it's gotten [TS]

  to enthrall you know there are too many [TS]

  congressmen that are in thrall of the [TS]

  military and there's too much money [TS]

  floating around that they don't want to [TS]

  miss out on mm-hmm [TS]

  they all went to business school so [TS]

  they're just looking for business [TS]

  they're not they got no there's no [TS]

  morality to it anymore [TS]

  i-i-i jumped into an online conversation [TS]

  and you might help me with this yeah [TS]

  sure [TS]

  hope anyway I can't there was I started [TS]

  following a bunch of OPSEC people about [TS]

  a year ago because I wanted out of the [TS]

  of the thing where people were yelling [TS]

  at each other yeah oh god I made a real [TS]

  mistake oh my god it's like it's like [TS]

  4chan with a CS degree you are poem with [TS]

  your intent black hat but at one point [TS]

  somebody in the academic CS community [TS]

  was sending out tweets to the people in [TS]

  their community saying we're having [TS]

  we're starting a group like a an online [TS]

  pink group where we're discussing ethics [TS]

  in CS and we're trying to get a second [TS]

  computer science computer science okay [TS]

  we're trying to get academics people [TS]

  that are working in the field people [TS]

  that are you know theoretical about it [TS]

  we're trying to get everybody together [TS]

  to talk about you know to build a [TS]

  framework of talking about ethics in in [TS]

  computer science and so you know this [TS]

  was an open invitation on the part of an [TS]

  organizer to kind of you know come in [TS]

  present your CV explain who you are and [TS]

  from the basis of that will you know [TS]

  will include you in this conversation [TS]

  and it was kind of you know it's like a [TS]

  typical sort of like who are you how do [TS]

  you rank and we're gonna we're going to [TS]

  include you in this conversation [TS]

  with priority if you teach at Stanford [TS]

  versus if you're a 24 year old coder [TS]

  right right which made sense but I wrote [TS]

  him and said hi I am NOT in computer [TS]

  science but I really want to be engaged [TS]

  in the conversation around ethics in [TS]

  computer science and I humbly submit [TS]

  that you could have some civilian lay [TS]

  people in this conversation because it [TS]

  feels like you guys might get into a [TS]

  little bit of a think bubble with one [TS]

  another because some of the presumptions [TS]

  that you're all operating from maybe are [TS]

  the wellspring of some of these ethical [TS]

  questions that you're struggling with [TS]

  like maybe it's up maybe it's up above [TS]

  some of your first presumptions or maybe [TS]

  it's just a thing that you never looked [TS]

  at this this way because you all think a [TS]

  certain way but it seems like some lay [TS]

  thinkers might have a have a place here [TS]

  I mean in putting it it would be putting [TS]

  it strongly to say you'd be the court [TS]

  jester but you could be there to be a [TS]

  smart person asking a question that [TS]

  doesn't come up very often right which [TS]

  sometimes might be a silly obvious [TS]

  questions and other time it might be [TS]

  thought-provoking and help them to [TS]

  clarify their thinking on something by [TS]

  having to explain it to Adam that's like [TS]

  you that's right and and if you you know [TS]

  if your explanation to a numbnuts is [TS]

  well everybody knows what this is [TS]

  and the numbnuts says that's not true [TS]

  yeah you do maybe come at things from a [TS]

  different from a different way you can't [TS]

  talk about ethics in computer science [TS]

  without recognizing that you're talking [TS]

  about ethics and not computer science [TS]

  because if you're talking about ethics [TS]

  and computer science and you think [TS]

  you're talking about computer science [TS]

  then you're going to come to the same [TS]

  conclusions you came to before if you're [TS]

  talking about ethics you're talking on a [TS]

  different discipline and computer [TS]

  scientists aren't experts at it you're [TS]

  there there's nothing to suggest that [TS]

  being good at computers means that [TS]

  you're also good at the [TS]

  Effects of what computers can and are [TS]

  doing that is a separate discipline [TS]

  anyway he wrote back and said I agree [TS]

  how like how we're not meeting in a [TS]

  Convention Center and giving speeches [TS]

  we're creating an online community of [TS]

  people that are doing this work and [TS]

  we're using you know in these short [TS]

  burst conversations we're using all the [TS]

  nomenclature of our field and we're just [TS]

  bippity-boppity-boo pack and forth with [TS]

  c++ talky-talk how are you going to [TS]

  engage in that conversation with us and [TS]

  I said I cannot I cannot engage that way [TS]

  with you and if the if the ethical if [TS]

  what you're doing is creating like an [TS]

  online community where people are [TS]

  bounding or bouncing ideas off of each [TS]

  other there's no there isn't a place for [TS]

  me to tell hop in because nobody wants [TS]

  to sit and explain to a layperson [TS]

  something that everybody else in the [TS]

  room gets in 140 characters right but I [TS]

  guess I'm just if you are someone who is [TS]

  organizing this community if you're [TS]

  impelled to do it [TS]

  let me just plant that seed in your head [TS]

  that add a certain point other people [TS]

  need to be a people that are not in [TS]

  computer science or people who are not [TS]

  biologists need to be part of the [TS]

  bioethics conversation or the computer [TS]

  science ethics conversation and you guys [TS]

  you know people in computer science need [TS]

  to acknowledge that and not have it be a [TS]

  thing where you present your paper and [TS]

  then a bunch of people are butthurt [TS]

  about it and you're like but we did [TS]

  everything we try you know why are you [TS]

  so mad at us like that because this is [TS]

  what we're in and I'm [TS]

  get angry letters but this is where we [TS]

  are with drone warfare because the [TS]

  people that were doing the ethics talk [TS]

  we're also the people that were [TS]

  procuring and flying those drones and [TS]

  there wasn't anybody in the chain that [TS]

  was like okay let's let's come up with a [TS]

  let's come up with a order of engagement [TS]

  here or like a like a let's come up with [TS]

  a a way that this is gonna integrate [TS]

  into our civilian laws and our civilian [TS]

  morals the people that we're doing that [TS]

  work were in the military and or were in [TS]

  the Congress authorizing the military to [TS]

  do what I want and I know they're you [TS]

  know I they're they're people in the [TS]

  military that I argue with about this [TS]

  but it was never it was never put forth [TS]

  that's like how there's no monroe [TS]

  doctrine about it right in a way it [TS]

  violates the monroe doctrine so i don't [TS]

  know how to do that other than in places [TS]

  like this right yeah i mean you and i [TS]

  sit and talk and we do we traipse over [TS]

  into computer science ethics and we we [TS]

  bumble around and I knock a vase off a [TS]

  shelf and you say some things that I [TS]

  don't understand and then we bumble you [TS]

  know we waltz over into the next room [TS]

  and we we yell about business for a [TS]

  while and you you talk into your shoe [TS]

  but where else are those conversations [TS]

  happening hmm I don't know I mean I can [TS]

  only kind of argue this by analogy and I [TS]

  guess we're like I feel like um cuz I [TS]

  don't know anything about any of this [TS]

  stuff but I do at least have a wreckin [TS]

  like everybody I've got a wreckin you [TS]

  know it just seems like there there are [TS]

  there are situations where well first of [TS]

  all let's take it as read that we're [TS]

  looking when you're when you're talking [TS]

  about any rapidly evolving an important [TS]

  topic in public discourse it is very [TS]

  useful to have a lot of Vestas an [TS]

  England a lot of boffins you want a lot [TS]

  of real smart people who understand the [TS]

  history of the problem how we've tried [TS]

  to address it in the past how much of [TS]

  the way you've just in the past is [TS]

  useful in the future [TS]

  the kind of stuff that you would expect [TS]

  I mean if you're gonna if you're gonna [TS]

  have a stuff you're gonna have something [TS]

  about about medicine across the United [TS]

  States it's probably good to invite some [TS]

  doctors like um that would never argue [TS]

  against that in a million years but like [TS]

  there is that dumb liberal arts part of [TS]

  me that thinks that well you know it [TS]

  would be nice to have some people who [TS]

  are doctors slash something's as well [TS]

  amoebans people who are not doctors but [TS]

  others kind of slash people and because [TS]

  you know i think i do feel like a group [TS]

  think too strong a word but like i do [TS]

  feel like there's this thing of like [TS]

  well we're all smart people in this room [TS]

  will understand this problem so let's [TS]

  get to solving it when like some of the [TS]

  most useful stuff that you can have for [TS]

  input in an in kind of a group project [TS]

  is people who have differing views on [TS]

  how we frame the problem right how we [TS]

  ask the right questions and i I think [TS]

  that I think that there is a fetishism [TS]

  for getting the right answer that [TS]

  sometimes can skate right past whether [TS]

  we ever ask the correct question about [TS]

  this absolutely and that that's where I [TS]

  think there's a role for people who are [TS]

  lay people or nearly lay people is to be [TS]

  able to like be the dummy in the room [TS]

  maybe in some cases but like I look no [TS]

  further than what we've been describing [TS]

  for a lot of this episode which is oh [TS]

  should I not have done that well why was [TS]

  there no one there to say look you know [TS]

  I may not be much smarter than the [TS]

  average bear that but if you would ask [TS]

  me about this and you described it [TS]

  accurately what the scope of this change [TS]

  to your system would do just as a [TS]

  garden-variety user a dummy like me [TS]

  could have told you that's a stupid [TS]

  shitty idea that's gonna be costly to [TS]

  your reputation it's gonna potentially [TS]

  expose you to risks that were utterly [TS]

  unnecessary for what you're trying to do [TS]

  and here I'm talking about stuff like [TS]

  these apps that do stuff like pull down [TS]

  all your contacts for no great reason [TS]

  like there's all kinds of risks to that [TS]

  that somebody like me could have gone [TS]

  did you did you kind of like just did [TS]

  you kind of just you know sniff test [TS]

  that with what everybody normal cuz [TS]

  anybody normal would have gone oh that [TS]

  that does not make me feel good help me [TS]

  understand why that's the thing you need [TS]

  to do without telling me about it you [TS]

  know so I don't know I don't know if [TS]

  that goes from medicine I don't know if [TS]

  that [TS]

  4cs all the time but like you know [TS]

  having somebody in there to ask a [TS]

  perhaps illogical question not not just [TS]

  for the purpose of being the smart guy [TS]

  with the pipe who's disruptive but to be [TS]

  able to to bring an outside voice and an [TS]

  outside opinion to making sure that you [TS]

  have provided a good answer to a [TS]

  question that needed to be asked I think [TS]

  it goes for I think it goes for [TS]

  everything and the thing is that if you [TS]

  run a North Face store and a guy with a [TS]

  really long beard full of sticks and [TS]

  twigs comes in and rants yeah for for 40 [TS]

  minutes about your product you don't [TS]

  forget it and you probably send a memo [TS]

  to somebody but if enough people do it [TS]

  you redesign your product and that's how [TS]

  a business interacts with its customers [TS]

  but online Facebook has too many [TS]

  customers they get a million angry [TS]

  emails a day from people saying this was [TS]

  a shitty idea and the way you do that is [TS]

  by managing the responses in a way to [TS]

  seem polite and they seem like you're [TS]

  like you're listening when actually [TS]

  somebody it's closer in some ways to I [TS]

  mean I've mentioned this in other places [TS]

  before but this the gig economy [TS]

  ride-sharing service that I use has [TS]

  never has not only never gotten the [TS]

  location of my office correct but [TS]

  consistently gets it wrong in exactly [TS]

  the same way mm-hmm and I haven't even [TS]

  tried to address it because I got a [TS]

  feeling I know what's gonna happen [TS]

  what's gonna happen is what I'm trying [TS]

  to say is I want to essentially file a [TS]

  civilian bug to say there's something [TS]

  with your system that gets the location [TS]

  of my office wrong by a right turn and [TS]

  over half a block every time it's [TS]

  something repeatable it's a repeatable [TS]

  bug but like if I do that it's just [TS]

  gonna sound like I'm bitching and I'm [TS]

  not bitching I'm trying to say like you [TS]

  know this is this is I don't know if [TS]

  this is indicative of anything bigger [TS]

  but like maybe exploring that dumb [TS]

  experience I've had four times now could [TS]

  tell you something about your system but [TS]

  now I'm already editing myself on that [TS]

  because I don't want to be just some [TS]

  dingaling when they say thank you you [TS]

  know thank you very much for your input [TS]

  we're always improving the service [TS]

  here's your weekly update [TS]

  exactly you're you are literally saying [TS]

  let me help you make your product better [TS]

  and there is no way to do it I mean I I [TS]

  told you I think that I tried to call [TS]

  snapchat on the phone about eight eight [TS]

  months ago tell me more I want to hear [TS]

  this I said listen I I just you know I'm [TS]

  saying this to myself I'm saying it to [TS]

  the air I have a simple question I just [TS]

  need to talk to a certain person I've [TS]

  looked online there doesn't appear to be [TS]

  a way to reach that person and I just [TS]

  need to ask an operator to put me [TS]

  through to the person I need to talk to [TS]

  you so question click let's have a [TS]

  simple question for them yeah and I [TS]

  called the phone number and that it was [TS]

  snapchat phone number and it said hi [TS]

  thanks for calling snapchat if you'd [TS]

  like to talk to us just tweet us at [TS]

  snapchat beep click and I was like the [TS]

  kind of information that maybe you [TS]

  wouldn't want to say publicly right what [TS]

  if you've discovered a vulnerability [TS]

  this happened my friends who work on a [TS]

  password management app we're trying to [TS]

  send get encryption in place to send a [TS]

  critical zero-day exploit bug report to [TS]

  a company and they're like hey thanks [TS]

  for interest go sign up for our bug [TS]

  bounty over here and like no you don't [TS]

  understand the fucking red wire now like [TS]

  yeah we need to go get in like a skiff [TS]

  and talk about this thing that has been [TS]

  a problem for weeks or months and you [TS]

  didn't know about it like oh that's cool [TS]

  thanks glad you're man here's a pin you [TS]

  know right tweet us on Twitter and [TS]

  that'll be a good thing for you well and [TS]

  so and my thing wasn't like clipped the [TS]

  red wire now but it was time sensitive [TS]

  and it was real and it was solvable by a [TS]

  person somewhere well I spent a couple [TS]

  of weeks and not just trying everything [TS]

  and I tried I mean I did all these like [TS]

  go online and backward and look up phone [TS]

  numbers and it was it was well I called [TS]

  like it was like get human there's one [TS]

  where you can go and find the secret [TS]

  number from us places yeah I died I [TS]

  tried that I tried called the [TS]

  California business great Better [TS]

  Business Bureau all these different [TS]

  things and everything every phone number [TS]

  I got funneled me back to that couch at [TS]

  the and I could not and so I I tweeted [TS]

  and said hi I'd like to talk to someone [TS]

  can you contact me and then they wrote [TS]

  back two days later and were like yeah [TS]

  follow us and we'll DM and I followed [TS]

  them and they said hey and I said hey I [TS]

  have a question about this and they were [TS]

  like oh and I swear to you they said [TS]

  call this number right and the number [TS]

  was like just tweet us at like it was a [TS]

  it was an ultimate there was no way [TS]

  through and it was intentional it was I [TS]

  mean like that is a word I reserved for [TS]

  special occasions it's somewhat Kafka [TS]

  esque where it's difficult to understand [TS]

  why this is happening and there's some [TS]

  level of recursion and repetition where [TS]

  like you're in the castle [TS]

  what's crazy about science fiction is [TS]

  that it that it gets so many things [TS]

  right but it often gets things really [TS]

  wrong and that was what was so amazing [TS]

  about Star Wars or Blade Runner where [TS]

  they were the first science fiction [TS]

  films that made things look dirty right [TS]

  and we were like wow that looks so real [TS]

  what Kafka missed he was so right but [TS]

  what he missed was that there would be a [TS]

  giant yellow smiley face on everything [TS]

  great but it wasn't but but it's also [TS]

  not clean right you want to think like [TS]

  all those science fiction movies were [TS]

  there giant giant smiley places on [TS]

  everything it's at least clean yeah but [TS]

  this is both dirty and smiley face II [TS]

  and every interaction I had with [TS]

  snapchat was just like hi oh my god [TS]

  thank you hey tweet us and it's like [TS]

  look I'm not 14 I don't have a question [TS]

  about like my boyfriend took a booby [TS]

  picture of me and if I did I wouldn't [TS]

  want [TS]

  tweet you right but I have like a [TS]

  grown-up question I want to speak to one [TS]

  grown-up anyway eventually and I don't [TS]

  even remember how I did it [TS]

  I got a phone call from a live person [TS]

  there Wow and I don't remember what I [TS]

  think it was through their Twitter [TS]

  account I said look I want somebody to [TS]

  talk to me about I want an adult and and [TS]

  it came out of the blue I was not [TS]

  expecting it I got a phone call and it [TS]

  was a kid who was who said hey hi this [TS]

  is Jeremy at snapchat here's my question [TS]

  he was like yeah well um hang on let me [TS]

  let me call you back [TS]

  and then he called me back two minutes [TS]

  later and said sure here's the here it [TS]

  is here's the number should be arriving [TS]

  in the mail it's coming to you now [TS]

  anything else and I was like wow yeah [TS]

  just one other thing I took me a month [TS]

  to get to the point where I could have [TS]

  this two-minute conversation where you [TS]

  totally solved my problem Wow why did it [TS]

  take a month because it's a because to [TS]

  me it feels like this conversation took [TS]

  a month but it didn't it just took two [TS]

  minutes right and I knew it was I knew [TS]

  it was a two-minute conversation and I'm [TS]

  grateful for your help [TS]

  you've done more than I imagined can you [TS]

  fucking make that a little bit easier [TS]

  for people he's like pop well I'm just [TS]

  on the solution team yeah I know you are [TS]

  how a good fish taco to dance port [TS]

  Jeremy or Jeremy [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  Hey [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  hi John hi Merlin how's it going good [TS]

  how are you young very well that's good [TS]

  so early I do I just got a phone call [TS]

  from local public radio station and they [TS]

  wanted to know if I would come on a [TS]

  panel today to talk about whether or not [TS]

  amazon.com new bubbles that they built [TS]

  in Seattle are gonna be an icon like the [TS]

  Space Needle you might need to bring me [TS]

  up to speed here I am not totally up to [TS]

  date on the what are you the Emerald [TS]

  City what do you call Jetson now well we [TS]

  were the Jet City that was a very cool [TS]

  name yeah and and I think an organic [TS]

  name Jet City Jet City once we got a [TS]

  fight yeah we made the Jets yeah yep yep [TS]

  yep and then once you're always Emerald [TS]

  City is that is that that is that organ [TS]

  no Emerald City is something it's a [TS]

  nickname that came about as the result [TS]

  of a like one of those let's take [TS]

  suggestions from the audience [TS]

  title now things where they're like hey [TS]

  what should we call our city and people [TS]

  I think we're like we're out we already [TS]

  have a name Jet City and they were oh [TS]

  let's call it Emerald City and it's like [TS]

  who said that you know hey you in the [TS]

  back stand up whoo why did you say that [TS]

  they're like I don't work for a [TS]

  publicity firm don't mind me at the name [TS]

  of the odds place yeah oh that's not [TS]

  good yeah giant Seattle biospheres yeah [TS]

  Oh God and are people gonna live in them [TS]

  or they just oh they just green houses [TS]

  don't I say just green houses I new to [TS]

  this so so I yeah a few years ago I was [TS]

  I was downtown I had a I have a friend [TS]

  that works at an architecture firm and [TS]

  he was he invited he invited us to come [TS]

  by and see the see what's going on and [TS]

  they're a big big company that are [TS]

  making big big things [TS]

  and one of the things that have they had [TS]

  on their drawing board were these giant [TS]

  very organic looking spheres and I was [TS]

  intrigued because they were pretty [TS]

  cool-looking on the on the design table [TS]

  and he said yeah Amazon wants us to [TS]

  build these but like in the center of [TS]

  downtown and I thought that'll never [TS]

  happen first of all but wouldn't that be [TS]

  cool if you built like a big thing like [TS]

  that like a public space business yeah [TS]

  look like I mean looks like if you've [TS]

  seen the Polish or movie biosphere [TS]

  they're big round and they they have a [TS]

  kind of a who's the guy with the who's [TS]

  the guy with the geodesic domes the guy [TS]

  show about him you know that one guy [TS]

  with the name it's HR guy culture it's [TS]

  like the HR HR Pufnstuf HR snuffleupagus [TS]

  these are the appear to be three [TS]

  tripartite of three big interconnected [TS]

  bubbles with what looks like green trees [TS]

  inside and they look pretty big right [TS]

  they're super big and they are [TS]

  Buckminster Fuller oh that's it Bucky [TS]

  Bucky balls yeah they're there and [TS]

  they're built unlike bucky balls which [TS]

  are built with regular sort of [TS]

  triangular components these are made [TS]

  with very organic like the type of the [TS]

  type of shapes that you'd see inside of [TS]

  an actual but like a soap bubble or [TS]

  something swirling they kind of feel [TS]

  like to serve irregular patterns it [TS]

  isn't like I'm just seeing a bunch of [TS]

  triangles right and I hate to keep [TS]

  referencing the movie avatar but it [TS]

  feels like something the movie Avatar [TS]

  yes yes yeah so anyway I was and then [TS]

  they started building him and I was like [TS]

  I never expected that they would [TS]

  actually go through with this very [TS]

  ambitious idea to build these orbs in [TS]

  the center of town and what a what a [TS]

  bold move for a company that I think of [TS]

  as being pretty culturally conservative [TS]

  within themselves [TS]

  you know Amazon is not [TS]

  very has not typically been like we love [TS]

  everybody they're much more like their [TS]

  typical tech company that hides behind [TS]

  security keys and everything you know [TS]

  it's like harder to get into to [TS]

  amazon.com or to Microsoft in downtown [TS]

  Seattle it's harder to get in than it is [TS]

  to get into the White House you know the [TS]

  there's so many different levels of [TS]

  security and it's like security I mean [TS]

  what do you guys got in there like like [TS]

  gold bars what are you so scared of but [TS]

  but they they started building when they [TS]

  built them for a long time and they [TS]

  screwed up traffic in both directions [TS]

  downtown for ever and they built two big [TS]

  office towers on either side which are [TS]

  also interesting architectural II [TS]

  interesting but then as they got closer [TS]

  to opening these bubbles they were like [TS]

  oh we were never gonna let any one go in [TS]

  them [TS]

  oh no Snorks allowed right oh no these [TS]

  are just for us oh boy it seems like [TS]

  that's kind of thing you wanna mention [TS]

  yeah well but even I mean they didn't [TS]

  mention it because they never considered [TS]

  that it would be something to the public [TS]

  and so here you have this this like [TS]

  basically yeah Space Station Earth I'm [TS]

  seeing like a anytime you look at the [TS]

  right thing here it looks like a like a [TS]

  side what do you call that it that's so [TS]

  early it looks like a slice the edge off [TS]

  you show from the side one like yeah [TS]

  yeah yeah I mean like we need to show [TS]

  the fantastic for building one or two [TS]

  three four five stories yeah okay [TS]

  anything you got about ten feet in the [TS]

  story plus you got a little bit of [TS]

  overhead so these things are probably [TS]

  like at least like what 80 100 feet tall [TS]

  they're big they're big and they take up [TS]

  the space between of a block well and [TS]

  they've already on either side they have [TS]

  big office towers so the whole thing is [TS]

  a is you know it's a whole city block [TS]

  for this campus [TS]

  and they've done you know they they put [TS]

  these buildings in they hired 10,000 [TS]

  people and on the ground floor of their [TS]

  buildings they have a fat belly sandwich [TS]

  shop and a Thai restaurant and a cool [TS]

  burger place that puts lavender on their [TS]

  burgers and you know all this stuff and [TS]

  if you have a key card I'm sure you can [TS]

  go in and just charge your food but the [TS]

  campus did not it you know it's not [TS]

  built there are so many different eras [TS]

  of like downtown architecture fashion [TS]

  and we've both lived in cities San [TS]

  Francisco is a real example of this [TS]

  where a building gets built and it has a [TS]

  very kind of open unfriendly sun-baked [TS]

  Plaza with some cements in there that [TS]

  you could suppose I guess maybe sit on a [TS]

  shake I mean no it's just it doesn't [TS]

  want to go away it's really tough and [TS]

  and that was the I that was an idea that [TS]

  was supposed to be that was supposed to [TS]

  engage people you know these big plazas [TS]

  and it just they didn't think through [TS]

  how actual people want to be this campus [TS]

  really I mean those bubbles really draw [TS]

  you you you you come to them and you [TS]

  look at them and you're like I want to [TS]

  what is the first thought you have I [TS]

  want to go in mm-hmm because there's [TS]

  there's trees in there it looks like it [TS]

  Scott probably it's playing like tubular [TS]

  bells or music for airports like all [TS]

  right it's it's like the future I want [TS]

  to go in and then you get the kinda like [TS]

  giant Christmas ornaments like they're [TS]

  very I mean have to say they're I don't [TS]

  mean this is too much of a compliment [TS]

  but they're very attractive as you say [TS]

  like if you saw is Hugo what is that and [TS]

  how do I get inside yeah how do I get [TS]

  inside and you know the other public [TS]

  buildings that have a similar effect in [TS]

  Seattle are the downtown library which [TS]

  was just look for that right now [TS]

  oh it's modern [TS]

  but it's like somebody got tired of [TS]

  folding a box it's really i keep since [TS]

  the day it was opened i described it as [TS]

  a spaceport on a minor planet it's just [TS]

  like oh that's it huh I mean that there [TS]

  are buses that used to be pretty popular [TS]

  yeah it was like a mining planet like [TS]

  six millenia ago and that's the space [TS]

  board and it's a typical of contemporary [TS]

  architecture like at some point not that [TS]

  long after it opened the escalator [TS]

  stopped working then pretty soon there's [TS]

  somebody there with some scaffolding and [TS]

  a sign that says no access trying to fix [TS]

  it but they're not working that hard and [TS]

  then the other example is the EMP which [TS]

  was you know which was a again a folly [TS]

  of a rich person and and and when you [TS]

  saw it on the drawing board you were [TS]

  like wow we're gonna get a Frank Giri [TS]

  right in the middle of town and Frank [TS]

  Gehry designed it but because Paul Allen [TS]

  owned it Paul Allen got involved and was [TS]

  like I know that you built this that you [TS]

  designed this to be all silver but what [TS]

  if it was red white and blue and green [TS]

  and yellow and Frank Gehry was like well [TS]

  no I don't I don't want that that's not [TS]

  what I am building and Paul Allen was [TS]

  like yeah but don't you think that [TS]

  colors would make people like it more [TS]

  kind of psychedelic huh [TS]

  and Frank Gehry was like no I don't [TS]

  think that and then Paul Allen said and [TS]

  we're gonna need some meeting rooms in [TS]

  there like square boxes with chairs big [TS]

  big long chair rooms and Frankie was [TS]

  like that's not what what I was building [TS]

  and then he said and then you know on [TS]

  the outside there should be some some [TS]

  things where we can put posters that [TS]

  like advertise upcoming shows and so if [TS]

  you go to Frank Gehry's website I guess [TS]

  he's got a website but if you look at [TS]

  stop hearing Hervey let's say he does [TS]

  not acknowledge the EMP he washed his [TS]

  hands he's like I did well and more on [TS]

  it he doesn't make any money from the [TS]

  probably oh yeah he's like take my name [TS]

  off of the credit mm-hmm [TS]

  no I'm sure he took the money yeah but [TS]

  but but what Paul Ellen did was he he he [TS]

  got this here he got this thing built [TS]

  but it was but he needed it to be [TS]

  something that wasn't that you know but [TS]

  he was thinking in terms of the big like [TS]

  key card buildings in the suburbs that [TS]

  he came up in it sounds like a fairly [TS]

  classic design problem or an [TS]

  anti-pattern in design which is you know [TS]

  I it's probably easy to overstate this [TS]

  but one problem for people who are [TS]

  outside of design and don't approach it [TS]

  from a certain point of view is to think [TS]

  that it's really it's it's a coat of [TS]

  paint it's wrapping it's maybe you know [TS]

  branding but you haven't really thought [TS]

  about how the space is going to be used [TS]

  and so when you that is revealed when [TS]

  somebody says stuff like yeah yeah so [TS]

  basically what we want to we want a [TS]

  fancy building the cool people will like [TS]

  but we want the inside to be pretty [TS]

  pedestrian and we want to put posters [TS]

  outside mm-hmm and and we should you [TS]

  know and it when you look in from [TS]

  outside like so that's what they did [TS]

  with these amazon bubbles if you look in [TS]

  from outside you see oh inside these [TS]

  incredibly organic structures there are [TS]

  wisely them all white walls right [TS]

  squared off with no windows and doors [TS]

  and inside I'm sure there are like AV [TS]

  equipment and PowerPoint stuff and ports [TS]

  and I'm sure there's a folding table out [TS]

  front where you get your lanyard and it [TS]

  they just built a convention center that [TS]

  no one is allowed in and and so that you [TS]

  know the idea that you would build [TS]

  something like that and then not let [TS]

  people come is is an example of the kind [TS]

  of like the kind of tech tone-deafness [TS]

  that goes with this this new idea in in [TS]

  big companies that you're going to [TS]

  locate your campus in the center of [TS]

  downtown and that's gonna be appealing [TS]

  to employees because they're they're not [TS]

  going to be out at some suburban campus [TS]

  they're gonna be right in the heart of [TS]

  the action and Seattle is a cool city [TS]

  mountain [TS]

  there and get your coffee and people and [TS]

  you know I'm sure in their in their [TS]

  brochures when they're trying to attract [TS]

  the prospective employees there's like a [TS]

  picture of a girl with pink hair and [TS]

  there's somebody throwing the fish at [TS]

  the market and they're like come to [TS]

  Seattle don't you know don't move out to [TS]

  Mountain View California right but what [TS]

  the city what the company isn't doing is [TS]

  repaying the city for all that cool [TS]

  culture that they're using to attract [TS]

  employees by adding anything back [TS]

  they're just like yeah come to Seattle [TS]

  and we'll just we'll just really I mean [TS]

  I stating facts are these really [TS]

  actually this is actually true they [TS]

  actually are not gonna have like a lot [TS]

  of this is a place that somebody's it [TS]

  was kind of pitched as a public project [TS]

  but it's actually not going to be such a [TS]

  public project is that true I I do not [TS]

  believe it was ever pitched as a public [TS]

  project I think it's a tale in here are [TS]

  they've got that means that retail only [TS]

  frame is long people but boy I don't [TS]

  know about that I my sense of it is they [TS]

  stop you at the door and if you want to [TS]

  arrange a tour a small number of people [TS]

  per year I guess like civic leaders I'm [TS]

  sure I'll get a tour right I'm sure that [TS]

  I'm at some point someone will say hey [TS]

  we're going to the get an Amazon thing [TS]

  you want to come and it's gonna be [TS]

  because it's specific leader but like [TS]

  your regular person who came here from [TS]

  st. Louis to spend a week in Seattle [TS]

  because they've always wanted to [TS]

  whoo-hoo were like yeah we should go [TS]

  look at the Amazon orbs and they walk [TS]

  down there and you look at them and then [TS]

  you walk over to the door and you're [TS]

  like can we get in and no and then you [TS]

  pull your camera out and then somebody [TS]

  with a earpiece is like no pictures I [TS]

  mean you know that I'm exaggerating that [TS]

  but but that's about it [TS]

  right that's a family look so hard a [TS]

  part of it is deliberately open belting [TS]

  a good sign this is a headline from a [TS]

  week ago today is that there will be a [TS]

  visitor center and mics [TS]

  it's places that have a visitor center [TS]

  are not open to everybody right you can [TS]

  get tours you can get like a full [TS]

  90-minute Amazon HQ tour you go to oh [TS]

  their visitor centers called the [TS]

  understory [TS]

  no Discovery exhibit yeah okay it's [TS]

  gonna have 300 endangered plant species [TS]

  in it but it says you know there's a [TS]

  there's an article in geek wire in a [TS]

  couple of years Amazon employees Amazon [TS]

  employees will be able to walk on a [TS]

  suspension bridge over a forest land and [TS]

  settle into a nest perched within a [TS]

  mature tree for a brainstorming session [TS]

  and it's just like like three-quarters [TS]

  of that sentence is really appealing but [TS]

  what it really is saying is Amazon [TS]

  employees are gonna have brainstorming [TS]

  sessions in this place and Amazon [TS]

  employees you know like and and the [TS]

  brainstorming session is probably gonna [TS]

  happen you know within for like inside [TS]

  an organic skiffs no I don't think so [TS]

  I think they're their meeting rooms [TS]

  inside oh geez maybe you can go sit in a [TS]

  hammock but you know my experience of oh [TS]

  I went and toured the medium offices a [TS]

  couple of times huh and they had they [TS]

  had a bunch of sleeping cubbies have you [TS]

  been there [TS]

  no there were like little pods like [TS]

  built into the wall and and they had [TS]

  curtains on them and you could pull the [TS]

  curtains back inside there was like not [TS]

  just a mattress it was like a Japanese [TS]

  hotel room how often do they clean him I [TS]

  well so I didn't ask that my first [TS]

  question was how often do people go in [TS]

  and you can take naps in here what is [TS]

  what is the highest level inside the [TS]

  organization of someone who uses this at [TS]

  least weekly and the answer was no one [TS]

  has ever used these to take a nap [TS]

  because if you went in and took a nap [TS]

  yeah you would be looked at like someone [TS]

  who was trying to take a nap during the [TS]

  work day you could probably you could [TS]

  probably smoke weed in the office and [TS]

  get less kickback then if you went and [TS]

  slept took a nap during work but there [TS]

  are the facilities there for six people [TS]

  to be sleeping simultaneously [TS]

  and I said do people ever like go in [TS]

  here and fucking the eat at night uh-huh [TS]

  it's like no no no one ever goes in [TS]

  there why would you go in there it's [TS]

  creepy it's like you know I don't know [TS]

  how and probably they're cleaned every [TS]

  day probably they have a dedicated [TS]

  cleaning person to clean them but as far [TS]

  as I could tell pulling the employees of [TS]

  medium no one had ever gone in those [TS]

  pots and I was like if I worked at [TS]

  medium I would be in that pot ever I [TS]

  would work from there [TS]

  oh absolutely and the bring an iPad and [TS]

  recline are they yeah I'd be in there [TS]

  the reply was well you wouldn't work a [TS]

  medium for that for long T and so tell [TS]

  me yeah right I mean you could go down [TS]

  to Amazon orbs and sit around and have [TS]

  brainstorming sessions but to really [TS]

  like sit in sit in a hammock and watch [TS]

  the endangered butterflies fly around [TS]

  you have to be a vice president or [TS]

  higher anyway it's so it's so it's like [TS]

  this it's an incredible missed [TS]

  opportunity that is that from from [TS]

  inside their their hive mind I'm sure [TS]

  they're because because you can already [TS]

  feel it this was this radio show was [TS]

  about like Amazon wants this to be a [TS]

  tourist destination they thought of they [TS]

  were thinking that when they built it [TS]

  like we want people to come see this we [TS]

  want people to wear t-shirts and to be [TS]

  like oh Seattle that you mean the Orab [TS]

  City you know they had that in mind but [TS]

  but they couldn't they didn't make the [TS]

  leap to think if we're gonna build this [TS]

  it's gonna be an incredibly attractive [TS]

  nuisance to everyone like okay so it's [TS]

  got these endangered species you can't [TS]

  just open it up to everybody to just [TS]

  come through like a like a mall but you [TS]

  gotta have a way to pay $15 at least to [TS]

  go in and and and sit around I mean you [TS]

  know the Space Needle is not free right [TS]

  but there you pay money and you go in it [TS]

  something you know some way for the city [TS]

  to access it and whatever the retail is [TS]

  I'm sure that it's a I'm sure that it's [TS]

  like fifty square feet on an understory [TS]

  that's selling you t-shirts that have [TS]

  the orbs on [TS]

  you know there's no like that's not [TS]

  there's not gonna be a Fendi store in it [TS]

  well I thank God for that [TS]

  yeah I'm looking at images here of the [TS]

  blight of my own city which is this [TS]

  Salesforce tower you seen that you mean [TS]

  the largest tower in San Francisco is [TS]

  visible from every Japan town that's [TS]

  what they say oh shit it's the [TS]

  salesforce.com Tower it's like if if [TS]

  Darth Vader made a water rocket I was [TS]

  like not like this style of architecture [TS]

  personally it looks good in London but I [TS]

  don't know if it's so much here Utama [TS]

  orbs well no i'm talking here about the [TS]

  tower but i guess my question is this is [TS]

  all brand new to me i've known about [TS]

  this for now for 20 minutes and 30 [TS]

  seconds are you opposed to the bubbles [TS]

  differently than you would be for [TS]

  another kind of building that was mostly [TS]

  not meant to be public like you don't [TS]

  have this do you have the same feeling [TS]

  about the towers that are astride the [TS]

  bubbles as you do about the bubbles [TS]

  themselves do you think he gets a lot of [TS]

  different bill of goods here well I do [TS]

  think that if if Amazon wants to like [TS]

  the the libertarianism that is at the [TS]

  heart of the way that that company [TS]

  interacts with Seattle suggests that [TS]

  they don't owe us anything right they [TS]

  built their company from the ground up [TS]

  they built it they brought good clean [TS]

  jobs to town [TS]

  yeah they built it themselves and their [TS]

  only obligation to us is that they're [TS]

  bringing young people and they're paying [TS]

  them a lot of money and those people [TS]

  increased our tax base and whether or [TS]

  not they created a traffic fuckup and [TS]

  whether or not this like the sewers and [TS]

  infrastructure in downtown is built were [TS]

  built to accommodate 50,000 new people [TS]

  who are all flushing their toilets at [TS]

  the same time whether or not any of [TS]

  those things any of those larger [TS]

  questions of how we interact with each [TS]

  other like they will do the minimum to [TS]

  be in compliance [TS]

  but they don't think of them they don't [TS]

  think of themselves as integrated [TS]

  they're their thing they built it the [TS]

  money belongs to them and they bought [TS]

  that land and they can do what they want [TS]

  with it [TS]

  and if Bezos wanted to erect a glass [TS]

  penis 80 stories tall he wouldn't be the [TS]

  first rich guy to build a glass penis in [TS]

  downtown Seattle there literally is a [TS]

  building that looks like a penis and [TS]

  downtown's it's a green penis which is [TS]

  the which is a bad color for a penis [TS]

  that's what most farm fresh peas are [TS]

  full of green penis I'm not a doctor if [TS]

  your penis is green it may be a side [TS]

  effect yeah but but so so the [TS]

  combination of like like ego and hubris [TS]

  that would allow a company to say we're [TS]

  doing this in the center of your city we [TS]

  have the right to do it because we get [TS]

  to do whatever we want because money [TS]

  we're not obligated to you in any way [TS]

  shape or form to make it I mean we have [TS]

  to make it accessible because that's the [TS]

  code we have to make it like you have to [TS]

  be able to walk through it but we have [TS]

  no further obligation to make it to have [TS]

  it interact with you at all if you don't [TS]

  have a lanyard you know you're barely [TS]

  welcome at the fat belly sandwich shop [TS]

  which is ostensibly open to the public [TS]

  because they don't have a capacity to [TS]

  use their cash registers don't don't [TS]

  accept money or whatever but at the same [TS]

  time they want to be loved [TS]

  and that's the thing that that's the [TS]

  cognitive disconnect they don't [TS]

  understand why people are mad at them [TS]

  they feel hurt and put upon when people [TS]

  complain well I'm also like this seems [TS]

  like there's this kind of cereal like um [TS]

  this feeling of being oh we're so you [TS]

  know we're so misunderstood yeah yeah [TS]

  you guys you guys describe all of this [TS]

  evilness to us that is not only not [TS]

  factual but it's just just unfair and [TS]

  like we take such a beating from the [TS]

  public you know especially given all the [TS]

  good that we're doing yeah look at all [TS]

  this stuff we've done look at what we've [TS]

  done for you but you know this time an [TS]

  aggrieved ad thing [TS]

  it's an aggrieved ad yeah and when you [TS]

  think about it like all right well you [TS]

  just you know you've got 50,000 people [TS]

  now that you brought into town nobody [TS]

  can move you didn't think of that [TS]

  because that's not your problem because [TS]

  as soon as they leave the door of your [TS]

  building it's not your problem anymore [TS]

  yeah but it is your problem where it's [TS]

  our problem and I mean I I'm definitely [TS]

  the idea that they sell they sell [TS]

  working in Seattle as a big part of [TS]

  their compensation package because it's [TS]

  the old argument they used to make to us [TS]

  and rock and roll like oh you know [TS]

  you're so lucky you get to play rock and [TS]

  roll and it's like oh man it's my job [TS]

  I'd like to also get money but part of [TS]

  the money has got to be just but I'll [TS]

  say yeah I mean it is and I'm saying [TS]

  fairness but like you know Silicon [TS]

  Valley San Francisco superscooper costly [TS]

  even if you're making pretty good dough [TS]

  New York City you know tough to get an [TS]

  apartment that's bigger than a closet [TS]

  you could have a quality of life in [TS]

  Seattle with a similar kind of job with [TS]

  a big growing company that's you your [TS]

  quality of life is gonna be higher than [TS]

  it would be if you're living in some [TS]

  kind of a hovel in Mountain View oh [TS]

  absolutely I mean the the argument that [TS]

  they're making is not wrong my my [TS]

  argument is that is taking like you're [TS]

  sucking from the city but you're sucking [TS]

  thing from the city that nobody owns [TS]

  like you can't pay anybody for the cool [TS]

  artists that are loafing around you're [TS]

  certainly not going to pay them for [TS]

  their art but you you're you don't feel [TS]

  a responsibility to you're bringing your [TS]

  people in who don't have culture right [TS]

  there 24 and they have computer science [TS]

  degrees and they don't know and they [TS]

  live in an apartment with nothing on the [TS]

  wall like they like having access to [TS]

  like good saw and like that yeah they [TS]

  like you good they look good good [TS]

  restaurants they like to go to you know [TS]

  they're learning to go to shows that's [TS]

  wonderful I mean Seattle will [TS]

  enculturate the people that work here [TS]

  because they will if they if they allow [TS]

  themselves [TS]

  I'm sure Amazon has programs where it's [TS]

  like hey come to a show with us or you [TS]

  know like like after work groups of [TS]

  people that go do things how you see it [TS]

  you see them you see a group of people [TS]

  show up at a thing and you're like oh [TS]

  look it's a bunch of young Amazon people [TS]

  all in a herd with one another like and [TS]

  that is the process of the culture how [TS]

  the culture of a city works but what [TS]

  they don't acknowledge is that that has [TS]

  a cost on the people that are already [TS]

  living in the city who are making the [TS]

  thing that they're that they're selling [TS]

  which is like an intact culture where [TS]

  there's a music scene and where there [TS]

  are you know there's room for artists [TS]

  that don't have a lot of money to live [TS]

  this is the thing about San Francisco [TS]

  that when I'm down there and talking to [TS]

  musicians I did this show while I was [TS]

  there last week where we covered the [TS]

  music of a couple of Wes Anderson films [TS]

  Rushmore and Royal Tenenbaums and it was [TS]

  you know they were probably 30 to 40 [TS]

  musicians and most of them were either [TS]

  old San Francisco people like the flamin [TS]

  Groovy's were there Wow and who did [TS]

  these days what would you do I ended up [TS]

  doing Judy as a punk and I did a song [TS]

  yeah which was super fun and I did [TS]

  the Rolling Stones tune [TS]

  I am waiting mm-hmm which is not one of [TS]

  their greatest tunes but but the band [TS]

  behind me was really great and Kelly [TS]

  Stoltz was there who's a friend of mine [TS]

  Stoltz I know that name can we stole to [TS]

  the San Francisco in her though Kelly [TS]

  Stoltz was mobbed up with that the kind [TS]

  of like the Oringer kind of groups yeah [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah okay yeah he's a great [TS]

  musician and he hilariously covered the [TS]

  the echo and the Bunnymen to the seminal [TS]

  whichever one of their records people [TS]

  consider seminal he covered that record [TS]

  in its entirety early last year they [TS]

  heard it and came to him and said we [TS]

  need a rhythm guitar player oh shut up [TS]

  you already know all the songs he's in [TS]

  the bunny was a Russian train the record [TS]

  I guess it must have been I'm not I'm [TS]

  not [TS]

  it's not that I'm against them my face [TS]

  among them kissing the tour toys show [TS]

  it's good ass good s record I bet it is [TS]

  mm-hm sounds like The Killers but but so [TS]

  Kelly is in the echo and the Bunnymen [TS]

  and he's out there you know those guys [TS]

  are they're very old and crusty last [TS]

  time I saw him when he's okay did I [TS]

  didn't tell you the story I open no I [TS]

  opened for them oh yeah okay and he came [TS]

  off the stage he was you know III tried [TS]

  to interact with them a couple of times [TS]

  and he very definitely was like boy I [TS]

  wanted Beauregard atarid are like [TS]

  completely unintelligible and I think he [TS]

  knows that he is and he talks throughout [TS]

  the show into the microphone dark hair [TS]

  no bugger [TS]

  I was loving it but he got off the stand [TS]

  I'm standing by the backstage stairs he [TS]

  gets up the stage people are like yeah [TS]

  somebody throws a towel around his [TS]

  shoulders and then there's an EMT a [TS]

  medic standing there he comes down the [TS]

  stairs and the medic hands him an oxygen [TS]

  mask somebody do that from me and he [TS]

  takes like four big drafts of this like [TS]

  just just big big lungfuls of pure [TS]

  oxygen and then he's like locked by a [TS]

  very rare and off you want what lights a [TS]

  cigarette and walks off and I and then [TS]

  the EMT is packing up his stuff and I'm [TS]

  like hey is that a real thing [TS]

  and the guy's like no no that's not [TS]

  gonna do anything for you but he wanted [TS]

  it and I was here and had oxygen and [TS]

  they hate whatever the extra hundred [TS]

  fifty dollars is and he said like I [TS]

  think it's just kind of a like boosts I [TS]

  mean like a maybe get a little head rush [TS]

  but I think it's more like you feel like [TS]

  I got off stage and got some pure oxygen [TS]

  I don't think and then he's kind of like [TS]

  me which I thought was cute and funny I [TS]

  was founded eight years after the [TS]

  Beatles broke up and the time from [TS]

  forming echo and the Bunnymen until now [TS]

  is 40 years so that feels pretty good [TS]

  did you read the thing that as of a [TS]

  couple of days ago the Berlin Wall has [TS]

  been down longer than it was up I reject [TS]

  that that's very great that's very [TS]

  troubling to me this is that night oh my [TS]

  goodness we've had an entire Cold War [TS]

  and all we've been doing is yelling [TS]

  about sleeping pods in San Francisco [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  that Salesforce tower that's handsome so [TS]

  you have you been in it doesn't shower [TS]

  allow you to go Eva and I rock behind [TS]

  avoid downtown these days [TS]

  but yeah I don't know you know it's the [TS]

  other part of its that's weird again I'm [TS]

  just I'm just I'm not reading anything [TS]

  much while we're talking I'm going about [TS]

  what you're saying but it what you're [TS]

  describing also the let's say the [TS]

  obvious thing it's it is what what some [TS]

  of these companies do is weird and at [TS]

  the least tone-deaf but also they're [TS]

  like this kind of shocked surprised that [TS]

  people don't like what they're doing [TS]

  once they're kind of clocked doing what [TS]

  they're doing you know like whether that [TS]

  stuff with your data or you know stuff [TS]

  with your other data or building a [TS]

  bubble there's this whole sense of like [TS]

  oh what do you mean like we're just [TS]

  we're just making tech techniques like [TS]

  why you guys getting all mad at us like [TS]

  like the fact that like you know I [TS]

  didn't realize we had to like ask [TS]

  permission to make your city good look [TS]

  at us making you're making your stupid [TS]

  fucking town into a destination for the [TS]

  most desirable men in America like Wow [TS]

  how dare you get mad do we put some [TS]

  ferns in a pot downtown oh man there [TS]

  wasn't a Jimmy John's downtown before [TS]

  and now there is one song right yeah so [TS]

  thank you you know I mean it's I guess [TS]

  you could overstate this but like you [TS]

  know it's kind of got the meme of like [TS]

  oh you know should I not have done that [TS]

  where it's like oh that thing we're like [TS]

  you this app downloads your entire [TS]

  contact list and uploads it to the clewd [TS]

  supposed to do that makes people [TS]

  frustrated that we now collate all that [TS]

  data against these perma cookies from [TS]

  facebook is that weird that is that bad [TS]

  and you're like yeah man that are bad [TS]

  like you know if you not only should you [TS]

  have asked about that but you shouldn't [TS]

  have done it you shouldn't have done it [TS]

  and needed to ask but doing it and not [TS]

  asking is mega gross I don't know if [TS]

  this has happened to you oh you don't [TS]

  have a Facebook account or ever go on [TS]

  there I have a deactivated Facebook [TS]

  account that I have to use sometimes to [TS]

  log into something but I don't post [TS]

  there or read there right [TS]

  and now so I try not to talk about it [TS]

  but if you ask I will tell you I think [TS]

  III I am one of the OGS at knowing that [TS]

  place is a fucking garbage fire your [TS]

  welcome it in my case I yeah but what [TS]

  what what happened the other day was I I [TS]

  got a DM last time I heard about you [TS]

  getting a DM it was that you hadn't [TS]

  gotten somebody free tickets for a show [TS]

  fast enough [TS]

  uh-huh that's the last one I remember [TS]

  cuz that's where you go you go to [TS]

  Facebook and you go past for somebody [TS]

  that they hadn't given you a free thing [TS]

  fast and I get the MS people give me the [TS]

  MS and and I don't I don't mind him I'll [TS]

  take you DM sure um you know don't do it [TS]

  all the time I don't want I don't want [TS]

  to hear about things I don't want to [TS]

  hear about but if you've got something [TS]

  you want to tell me it is literally [TS]

  something private you know there you go [TS]

  I mean it isn't private that you're [TS]

  showing me your pictures your family cuz [TS]

  I don't know you yeah that's not a thing [TS]

  that needed to be private but but if you [TS]

  have a question or you want to talk to [TS]

  me yeah [TS]

  so anyway I got a DM and I did what I [TS]

  often do which is I went and clicked on [TS]

  the thing to see their profile because I [TS]

  want to know who I'm talking to because [TS]

  a lot of times somebody will be like [TS]

  yeah and I'm like do I know you and then [TS]

  I go on their Facebook page I'm like I [TS]

  do know you like you're the guy that I [TS]

  went on that long road trip with I [TS]

  wouldn't have remembered your name but [TS]

  you and I are friends [TS]

  yep so I got as opposed to being for [TS]

  example a public relations person who [TS]

  acts like they know you [TS]

  exactly not that cuz that's the thing [TS]

  that this person comes on the thing and [TS]

  they're like hey hey what's up man or [TS]

  something in it and you know usually you [TS]

  know when it's a bot or when it's a [TS]

  patrol but this was just it's just [TS]

  plausible enough like did I tell you I [TS]

  started getting emails from ben shapiro [TS]

  do you know who that is yeah and and [TS]

  these emails started coming into my [TS]

  inbox and the problem is I know eight [TS]

  people whose names are some combination [TS]

  of Ben Shapiro [TS]

  sure sure sure sure I know like are they [TS]

  also the future of the conservative [TS]

  movement yeah no they're not right I [TS]

  have a lot of friends that are like I [TS]

  have a lot of friends that are named [TS]

  Shapiro I have a lot of friends that [TS]

  whose names you know are in the in the [TS]

  larger family but but not the larger [TS]

  family event just the smaller family I [TS]

  have 40 friends named Ben so I was [TS]

  getting these emails and I would open [TS]

  them because I'm like Oh Ben Shapiro's [TS]

  got a question or oh yeah ben shapiro [TS]

  wants me to and then i would open and [TS]

  i'd be like ah sticky on you yeah and so [TS]

  anyway this facebook DM was from a [TS]

  person that seemed plausible and I went [TS]

  to click on their thing and I and I [TS]

  couldn't get to their profile it was [TS]

  like uh you would click on and it would [TS]

  say you know actions a thumbs up delete [TS]

  block and I'm like stuff I don't want to [TS]

  do any of those things I just want to [TS]

  see who this is that's trying to talk to [TS]

  me and I click on it again I click over [TS]

  here I click on the little wheel I click [TS]

  on the on the widget I click on the flag [TS]

  and it's like would you like to add this [TS]

  person to your contacts would you like [TS]

  to save this conversation options would [TS]

  you like to give them a wave would you [TS]

  like to give him a poke a little little [TS]

  pat on the fanny and I'm like no no no [TS]

  no no I want to see who the fuck this is [TS]

  couldn't do it and and dedicated five [TS]

  minutes to a 5 frustrating minutes to [TS]

  trying to figure out why I couldn't see [TS]

  who this was uh-huh well a day or two [TS]

  later I read a thing that says Facebook [TS]

  has decided to incur open up messenger [TS]

  their shit EDM platform to people that [TS]

  don't even have Facebook pages because [TS]

  they want their DM program to to be the [TS]

  new SMS oh it's like as a green bubble [TS]

  text yeah [TS]

  I know right I mean somebody from [TS]

  outside the ecosystem you [TS]

  right but because China I guess won't [TS]

  allow Facebook but they don't want to [TS]

  miss out on the on the a billion [TS]

  customers they've figured out a [TS]

  workaround which is now you can just use [TS]

  messenger [TS]

  well what they've done is they've [TS]

  introduced now into the system the [TS]

  possibility that some spammer comes out [TS]

  of nowhere and I don't even I can't [TS]

  verify their Facebook's bug slash [TS]

  features was you had to prove that you [TS]

  or you equals equals zero that your name [TS]

  is you I thought that too but now [TS]

  there's this person and now subsequently [TS]

  they've come back a second time and been [TS]

  like wave hi mmm [TS]

  but it's a spam because they haven't [TS]

  said anything they're not asking me [TS]

  anything I don't want to just like be on [TS]

  there waving at you whoever you are but [TS]

  like there's still the possibility that [TS]

  the third time they're gonna write me [TS]

  they're gonna say hey don't you remember [TS]

  you know because it's like don't you [TS]

  remember me they might actually be [TS]

  somebody that I know right no I I I'm [TS]

  you're explaining this just fine I know [TS]

  exactly what you're talking about [TS]

  but you have to determine is this an [TS]

  actual person if this is a person can I [TS]

  judge what their intent is because I'm [TS]

  so fucking sick of being punked out by [TS]

  PR people and robots that it has made me [TS]

  suspicious and a little cynical about [TS]

  that and it's sort of like the way that [TS]

  anybody who ever knew me mostly would [TS]

  not call me on the phone like you've [TS]

  called me on the phone I pick up it says [TS]

  it's John I pick it up but like but like [TS]

  it's a pretty good sign that it's not [TS]

  anybody I know or want to talk to you if [TS]

  they if they call me on the phone and my [TS]

  various spam filtering apps on iPhone [TS]

  tell me that like the vast majority of [TS]

  phone calls I get are garbage it just it [TS]

  says it right there and at a certain [TS]

  point you know you have to we have a [TS]

  permissive model of communication that [TS]

  used to be a really good idea which is [TS]

  that whether you're talking about a [TS]

  telephone you're talking about email the [TS]

  democratizing force of that was that [TS]

  anybody can reach out to anybody and [TS]

  like it's it is it's a great [TS]

  democratizing idea but like now we're at [TS]

  a point where when you reach a point [TS]

  where most of the inbound communication [TS]

  is harassment or junk maybe that's a [TS]

  model that we need to flip around and [TS]

  until that model is flipped around I go [TS]

  out [TS]

  do I spend 15 minutes on due diligence [TS]

  before 30 to spending 30 seconds saying [TS]

  thanks for the note yeah right because [TS]

  that's just how my fucking broken brain [TS]

  is it's like I don't want to get in a [TS]

  conversation with a PR person and and [TS]

  feed them stuff that makes them think [TS]

  that they are cleft onto me and can [TS]

  count on me to go you know promote their [TS]

  energy drink or whatever just I'm just a [TS]

  tired of that it's just blue so you but [TS]

  I was sitting thinking about the [TS]

  internal logic at Facebook where they [TS]

  have one of the largest media companies [TS]

  and tech companies in the world although [TS]

  they said I'm not a media company and [TS]

  they are worth billions and billions [TS]

  everybody there is richer than Croesus [TS]

  said are you saying I don't think I know [TS]

  the reference well it's fun then is this [TS]

  bleeding over from your other goddamn [TS]

  show I think I just learned about the [TS]

  fenestration that was a very good [TS]

  episode crease did you like it you know [TS]

  you want me to tell you the truth yes I [TS]

  absolutely was not super into it [TS]

  for the two or three episodes I listened [TS]

  to and I thought this calculation for [TS]

  John I don't like this show that much [TS]

  and then I listened to more of them and [TS]

  I've come to really enjoy it and I think [TS]

  I think some episodes are way better [TS]

  than others in a way that will [TS]

  eventually balance out but your [TS]

  chemistry is actually really good and [TS]

  ken is genuinely fucking funny yeah I [TS]

  think the bouncing checks joke is the [TS]

  stupidest the smart joke I've ever heard [TS]

  and he had it ready he wrote it the [TS]

  night before anyway yeah I just I give a [TS]

  thumbs-up I'll go listen to I'm the [TS]

  bus's it's a good show there were the [TS]

  first couple were pretty stiff we were [TS]

  trying to figure out how to do it yeah I [TS]

  think that Ken he's so funny and I and [TS]

  I've been meaning to he's so funny and [TS]

  fast and I can you know why I like him [TS]

  because I you know you start to like [TS]

  somebody when they make the joke that [TS]

  you would have made and I'm like oh this [TS]

  guy's good fast I think I just want to [TS]

  empower him to interrupt me more you [TS]

  know he's very polite right and vice for [TS]

  doing a podcast with you that a lot of [TS]

  people could take yeah yeah I want him [TS]

  to I want him to say yeah I want him to [TS]

  say his joke mm-hmm you know he's got [TS]

  the joke and he's being he's like a [TS]

  little microphone shy like he doesn't [TS]

  want to jump in [TS]

  is my step on you yeah but but we were [TS]

  sitting across from each other at a [TS]

  table so I can see him so if he's gonna [TS]

  like jump in it there it'll be visible [TS]

  on his eyes then it went you know if you [TS]

  listen to that show it's not really very [TS]

  edited we just don't talk over each [TS]

  other because we're looking at each [TS]

  other and but yeah I'm proud of it I [TS]

  think it's getting better all the time [TS]

  well good for you I'm glad I'm glad [TS]

  you're doing it yeah thanks I don't [TS]

  think it's Croesus I think it's Croesus [TS]

  mmm but but it doesn't I liked those [TS]

  names it sound like it might be somebody [TS]

  from ancient Greek Greece or Rome or it [TS]

  could be somebody from West Virginia [TS]

  Cletus well Croesus was very rich King [TS]

  Croesus and when you say richer than [TS]

  Croesus you're saying that that's a way [TS]

  of describing you are describing someone [TS]

  as being rich I'll save that barometer [TS]

  okay thank you but but so thinking about [TS]

  internally in Facebook uh-huh there the [TS]

  business culture that if that is saying [TS]

  rather than saying let's improve the [TS]

  user experience for the billion people [TS]

  who are using our platform let's make it [TS]

  better for them let's make it a better [TS]

  environment let's make it a better [TS]

  product their mentality is how do we get [TS]

  another billion people to use this and [TS]

  if getting another billion people to use [TS]

  this makes it worse for the billion [TS]

  customers we have that's not our problem [TS]

  like we need to just keep patching the [TS]

  holes in in our program because people [TS]

  are you know they got nowhere else to go [TS]

  if they want to show pictures to their [TS]

  grandma but what we want is a is a [TS]

  billion more users that's our business [TS]

  model and that's so different from what [TS]

  the attitude of business was up until [TS]

  recent times you know the attitude of [TS]

  business back when it was the customer's [TS]

  always right what you want to do is get [TS]

  a customer for life and keep them happy [TS]

  and that person will will tell their [TS]

  friends and come back and use your [TS]

  buying tires this time they'll be back [TS]

  in a few years [TS]

  right and [TS]

  he contrasts that with now which is just [TS]

  like well you know you have to use our [TS]

  product cuz we're because we bought all [TS]

  the competitors and we're just you know [TS]

  you're not gonna like it but you can't [TS]

  log in to any of the other things you [TS]

  want to do on the web without using us [TS]

  now because because basically we've made [TS]

  it so that either you one click into [TS]

  this this new thing through Facebook or [TS]

  you spend 15 minutes filling out a form [TS]

  and it's like okay you're right yet my [TS]

  laziness and my like my my laziness is [TS]

  my culpability but it's just it's so I [TS]

  don't I don't know we you and I both [TS]

  have many many many many opportunities [TS]

  on our various shows to talk about how [TS]

  disappointed we are in the Internet but [TS]

  but this this situation or Amazon has [TS]

  built some orbs now I just got a letter [TS]

  just as we were sitting here from radio [TS]

  station and they're saying they don't [TS]

  need me on the show they're gonna have [TS]

  some architects come on instead and the [TS]

  the woman Amana who I was speaking to [TS]

  and I kind of ranted at her for a while [TS]

  about this she says I guess Amazon does [TS]

  have a few ways to let the public see [TS]

  the spheres limited but they have a [TS]

  visitor exhibit section and they do [TS]

  cooperate tours that's nice but you have [TS]

  to schedule them and they are only on [TS]

  Wednesdays so I guess technically the [TS]

  public if they plan in advance can [TS]

  interact with them a bit but I still [TS]

  think it's an interesting conversation [TS]

  thanks for your time oh and I don't mean [TS]

  to mock her she's trying to do a radio [TS]

  she's got a job to do but bringing in [TS]

  architects I mean you know you know what [TS]

  the generals run the war you know I'm [TS]

  saying that's right [TS]

  gonna be like well I think Barbara for [TS]

  um there's not enough electrical outlets [TS]

  but but so Amazon is covering their ass [TS]

  and anybody that's listening to this [TS]

  show that works at Amazon that is a [TS]

  partisan is gonna say you can go on [TS]

  Wednesdays yeah I mean it's you know [TS]

  it's booked through March of 2024 but [TS]

  get your name on a list yeah yeah yeah I [TS]

  guess it's it's you know I don't know [TS]

  it's easy to there's so many things to [TS]

  be outraged about these days for good [TS]

  reasons and there's so many things to [TS]

  outraged about that statement I'm sorry [TS]

  Philip bug there's so much stuff that um [TS]

  just kind of Royals inside of you and [TS]

  like so for me like I just don't talk [TS]

  about Facebook anymore because I don't [TS]

  want to be that guy who's like yeah well [TS]

  no you're just figuring that out boop [TS]

  boop I hate that guy on the Internet [TS]

  stop being that person on the Internet [TS]

  oh oh you didn't notice that till no you [TS]

  know it's like oh god just don't do that [TS]

  so I don't do that because I don't think [TS]

  there's anything that fruitful in me [TS]

  going see I told you Facebook was bad [TS]

  and dumb but there's also this that's [TS]

  too much called a lobster trap but not [TS]

  too too much but there are these kinds [TS]

  of things where you're like well well I [TS]

  guess we got to where we are now and how [TS]

  do we feel about that and it's like the [TS]

  the Menino one the now discredited myth [TS]

  but the still useful analogy of the frog [TS]

  in boiling water where it becomes a [TS]

  question of well if we need to get [TS]

  another billion users and we need to get [TS]

  this adoption to move up if it's bad I [TS]

  think that's a huge issue for Twitter [TS]

  where they're not growing anywhere near [TS]

  where they need to for their valuation [TS]

  so then you get into this thing and [TS]

  saying like well you know we can just [TS]

  keep moving these buttons around and now [TS]

  you can thread tweets and there's all [TS]

  this kind of stuff even though I mean of [TS]

  course the chorus the response that is [TS]

  well what about what about the abuse and [TS]

  Nazis is that a thing you're gonna make [TS]

  a button for cuz that's really upsetting [TS]

  to a lot of people who've been here from [TS]

  the beginning but you have to you end up [TS]

  doing this kind of funny calculation in [TS]

  your head of saying like oh okay if [TS]

  you're saying if they want to get [TS]

  another billion users or whatever it is [TS]

  on Facebook or on Twitter then it [TS]

  becomes this weird I guess it becomes a [TS]

  balancing act of how many people will [TS]

  tolerate those changes for how long [TS]

  or that just goes somewhere else at the [TS]

  time when you and I you know during the [TS]

  full full fruition of our relationship I [TS]

  feel like the big thing was MySpace and [TS]

  there was a time when everybody thought [TS]

  there's no way anything will be bigger [TS]

  than myspace it was such a juggernaut [TS]

  and then I think Facebook you know kind [TS]

  of took that over and myspace still has [TS]

  its demographics and localities where [TS]

  it's very popular but I don't know I [TS]

  don't have a smart opinion about this [TS]

  but like as somebody who is outside of [TS]

  the boiling pot I'm a frog outside the [TS]

  pod I I do think it's interesting that [TS]

  people using Facebook seem to bring to [TS]

  it the approximate joy of draining a [TS]

  wound near their eye it's the same way I [TS]

  felt I never saw anybody look happy [TS]

  using a blackberry and these days I [TS]

  never see anybody happy there's nobody [TS]

  who's excited about Facebook anymore as [TS]

  a veteran user that's might maybe not [TS]

  entirely true but people have been using [TS]

  it for five or more years I think by and [TS]

  large they will all tell you that they [TS]

  do it out of this grudging sense of [TS]

  obligation now maybe it's because of [TS]

  their family and they need to post [TS]

  photos there maybe it's because of their [TS]

  work but you know I mean if who looks [TS]

  forward to using LinkedIn like who's [TS]

  excited about you know what I mean and I [TS]

  don't know I mean I don't I don't know [TS]

  where the inflection point comes maybe [TS]

  some of the improvements they make that [TS]

  attract another billion people are also [TS]

  good for the people who are already [TS]

  there but and that's kind of the [TS]

  interesting balancing act is that the [TS]

  kinds of things that make the system [TS]

  more permissive are generally the kinds [TS]

  of things that make other people feel [TS]

  more exposed when you make it easier for [TS]

  randos and new accounts to get to me [TS]

  without any way for me to control that [TS]

  like that's not good for me that's not [TS]

  good for anybody and I'm a fucking 51 [TS]

  year old white guy I have the easiest [TS]

  thing in the whole world but did you for [TS]

  example did you see the New York Times [TS]

  article yesterday I believe it was about [TS]

  buying followers did you see that [TS]

  article no followers huh [TS]

  can you still buy Paul oh absolutely but [TS]

  this I'll leave it to you to go go look [TS]

  it up at your leisure but I thought it [TS]

  was everybody's been talking about it a [TS]

  lot especially on political Twitter the [TS]

  last couple days because they used some [TS]

  data visualizations data analysis that's [TS]

  extremely interesting [TS]

  long story short this particular company [TS]

  that sells followers for one thing they [TS]

  are basically taking in some cases [TS]

  acquiring the accounts of real people [TS]

  and like like those the the zombie the [TS]

  zombie that eats out an ant's brain like [TS]

  it turns your account into one of their [TS]

  follower accounts now that they can [TS]

  deploy but it leaves a fingerprint you [TS]

  can sometimes see that there are these [TS]

  changes or these new accounts that are [TS]

  all happening at roughly the same time [TS]

  and when somebody buys X number of [TS]

  followers it's it's a thousand [TS]

  fingerprints are left behind of like [TS]

  this certain pattern that is very almost [TS]

  easy to detect because a lot of hard [TS]

  work went into it but when you look at [TS]

  it it's it's staggering how similar the [TS]

  pattern is so you see these these these [TS]

  nerds at the New York Times do this [TS]

  great work and then you think like man [TS]

  first of all Twitter it was the [TS]

  Twitter's very good API to let them do [TS]

  that analysis they have a very [TS]

  permissive API that's fairly powerful [TS]

  for doing data analysis that's super [TS]

  cool but jesus fucking christ how hard [TS]

  would it be for them to do that how hard [TS]

  would it be for them to go in and look [TS]

  for patterns that are just blindingly [TS]

  obvious this for a long time was the [TS]

  boobs and butts problem where every time [TS]

  time you post something a picture of a [TS]

  boob or a butt would favorite it and I [TS]

  think that's kind of gone down the part [TS]

  that astonished me about that though was [TS]

  there was such a similarity to every one [TS]

  of the accounts you don't even need to [TS]

  have deep learning to go like Oh are [TS]

  there boobs in this picture just the [TS]

  very way there was always a pin tweet [TS]

  that was about this kind of subject [TS]

  matter [TS]

  they're always these kinds of things in [TS]

  the bio there's always you can even look [TS]

  at the links to the like dot are you [TS]

  sites or whatever it's just kind of shit [TS]

  we're like I don't even barely know how [TS]

  to use fucking Excel and I could see the [TS]

  pattern if I had if I had if I had two [TS]

  months of Perl I'd be able to write [TS]

  something that would be able to identify [TS]

  plus or minus twenty percent probably [TS]

  thousands of these accounts so that's I [TS]

  mean now I am fucking ranting but that's [TS]

  the part that's frustrating is like this [TS]

  is their party guys this is their this [TS]

  is their house this is your couch dude [TS]

  you're letting everybody come in and [TS]

  shit on and then like we're at work [TS]

  she's expected to sit there and go wow [TS]

  that was a really good shit yeah that [TS]

  was awesome great like why don't they [TS]

  use some of that firepower they've got [TS]

  when I mean and a cynical person would [TS]

  say well I'll tell you why [TS]

  there's a reason they they don't do [TS]

  anything to try and curtail the most [TS]

  extreme voices and it's the same reason [TS]

  that clickbait headlines get lots of [TS]

  comments every comment and every comment [TS]

  is at least three page views every time [TS]

  we're outraged and reload we are [TS]

  engaging at a level that is exactly the [TS]

  kind of metric that they are selling [TS]

  right now so you know it's like that old [TS]

  thing was that [TS]

  what's-his-name says about like you know [TS]

  never expect anybody to understand [TS]

  something that you know jeopardizes [TS]

  their job that's the frustrating part [TS]

  and then they just play it off legit and [TS]

  go yeah we're trying real hard here's [TS]

  our update like sorry for all the Nazis [TS]

  I mean I when I say that the old [TS]

  business model was customer's always [TS]

  right I know that there are there's a [TS]

  lot of eye rolling about my 1940s idea [TS]

  of what capitalism is but this isn't [TS]

  better and it isn't an evolution it is a [TS]

  very a very narrow idea of what business [TS]

  is and it's you know the narrow idea of [TS]

  people that have only studied business [TS]

  and they have not I mean it's the in [TS]

  some ways the rise of the business [TS]

  school because it used to be that you [TS]

  went to university and you studied [TS]

  things and then you went and you started [TS]

  a business and if you go to business [TS]

  school and you study business you are [TS]

  studying you know in a lot of ways a [TS]

  very kind of culty discipline where [TS]

  things are in fashion and out of fashion [TS]

  and just but you're also you're starting [TS]

  with these infrastructural things that [TS]

  without regard to what it is that you [TS]

  are quote unquote selling they're just [TS]

  very very foreign to someone like you or [TS]

  me like you didn't get into music by [TS]

  saying hey what what what kind of music [TS]

  should I be recording to sell the most [TS]

  records right or how can I sell t-shirts [TS]

  what's a good way to sell t-shirts I [TS]

  know I'll make some band music yes right [TS]

  like you know they're going to business [TS]

  school with no novel idea they're not [TS]

  going there because they built a better [TS]

  Mouse [TS]

  and they want to sell it they're going [TS]

  there just like I'm going to get into [TS]

  business and then they learn business [TS]

  and then are frantically casting about [TS]

  trying to find a way to have something [TS]

  to do a business about yeah to do a [TS]

  business mm-hm and and so some of them [TS]

  think like oh I'm gonna you know I'm [TS]

  gonna go out and talk to inventors and [TS]

  some and a lot of them are just like [TS]

  what what can I get that will attract [TS]

  attention to me long enough that I can [TS]

  cash out and then there are these models [TS]

  like Twitter there was a there was a [TS]

  proposal and I forget exactly who made [TS]

  it and I thought and I responded to it [TS]

  kind of like this is amazing why don't [TS]

  we do this and I know that it is a [TS]

  flawed premise but also it's it was a it [TS]

  was suggestive of a way of thinking [TS]

  which was why don't we put together a [TS]

  like a multinational entity to buy [TS]

  Twitter that is the current valuation [TS]

  and make it a non-profit because it is [TS]

  in its older version was such a benefit [TS]

  to the world honestly I think it was you [TS]

  know it did fulfill the promise of like [TS]

  what would happen if everybody could [TS]

  just talk and you know so many of my [TS]

  friends came from Twitter like people [TS]

  that I know in real life who changed my [TS]

  job if it hadn't been for Twitter I [TS]

  would have not I mean I done podcast [TS]

  before but I mean real talk if I had not [TS]

  been on Twitter I would not have met [TS]

  Scott and Adam I would not have done you [TS]

  look nice today and I would not have [TS]

  seen podcasts as a thing that I could do [TS]

  as something like my job right stop if [TS]

  it weren't for Twitter and favor that [TS]

  would have happened [TS]

  me too right I would never have I mean I [TS]

  met Amy man after a show and she was [TS]

  like you covered my song and and you did [TS]

  it wrong and I was like I know but I [TS]

  didn't practice that much and she was [TS]

  like yeah well pretty good kid keep it [TS]

  up and I was like loll you're Amy man [TS]

  high five but then the next day she [TS]

  followed me on Twitter [TS]

  and I was like wow you know shit and so [TS]

  I followed her back and I was like hey [TS]

  what's up and she was like loll and I [TS]

  said and and then within four months she [TS]

  said will you fly back to having never [TS]

  seen her since she said will you fly [TS]

  back to New York City and do a show in [TS]

  Central Park with me [TS]

  where we cover Simon & Garfunkel and [TS]

  Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel are going [TS]

  to be there and I said only happen [TS]