The Incomparable

132: Kind of Like a Dinosaur

 

  the incomparable number 132 Morris 2030 [TS]

  don't make me angry you wouldn't like me [TS]

  when I'm angry [TS]

  this is the incomparable podcast I'm [TS]

  Jason smell your host i have not been [TS]

  bombarded with gamma radiation this is [TS]

  an episode of the comic book club and [TS]

  joining me as usual for the comic book [TS]

  club our charter comic book club members [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser hi Lisa [TS]

  good evening everybody and Jason [TS]

  brightman hi Jason [TS]

  hey now this was your idea to talk about [TS]

  the way I've been describing this is the [TS]

  many Hulk's that I have known how the [TS]

  whole the whole could put more more than [TS]

  that the kind of like other bulky things [TS]

  including the she-hulk so why don't you [TS]

  give a little introduction to our [TS]

  primary topic for tonight yeah so this a [TS]

  crazy idea that too distant to discuss [TS]

  she-hulk which for those of you out [TS]

  there who aren't as familiar with [TS]

  she-hulk she's Bruce Banner the hoax [TS]

  cousin [TS]

  yes I who apparently at first appeared [TS]

  in 1980 and it's in savage she-hulk [TS]

  number one so that's just a bit of [TS]

  trivia i just looked up back when she [TS]

  was savage back when she was savage but [TS]

  we're not looking at the series known as [TS]

  savage she-hulk we're looking at her [TS]

  second series and her i think it's the [TS]

  third or third series is a series of a [TS]

  failed series of a failed serious but [TS]

  the actually looking at a character and [TS]

  heard her treatment by two different [TS]

  writers in two different series is that [TS]

  were similar yet different the [TS]

  sensational she-hulk by john byrne and [TS]

  the just self-titled she-hulk that was [TS]

  written by Dan Slott and then after [TS]

  we're done with that we'll we'll maybe [TS]

  branch out into some other other kind of [TS]

  Hulk related things because I find this [TS]

  whole I find actually kind of bizarre [TS]

  that there is a a you know a whole [TS]

  family of things because the whole as a [TS]

  character in his own right is kind of [TS]

  problematic and peculiar and maybe we'll [TS]

  talk about that a little bit too we have [TS]

  a chance but the assigned reading was [TS]

  these two defunct she-hulk series which [TS]

  are fascinating [TS]

  I i was reading comics i believe when [TS]

  the first came out and i think i might [TS]

  have been back reading comics when the [TS]

  second one came out and i have no I [TS]

  think no recollection of either we think [TS]

  that explains why they didn't last very [TS]

  long it will the the the the first [TS]

  series the sensational she-hulk by john [TS]

  byrne sort of at the height of john [TS]

  byrne is them as he was riding the fence [TS]

  writing and drawing the Fantastic Four [TS]

  on what's considered one of their best [TS]

  runs he did the she-hulk series as well [TS]

  as several other things because he was [TS]

  writing and drawing a dozen books that a [TS]

  month at that time but the the series [TS]

  interesting so is one of the first [TS]

  series is that broke the fourth wall and [TS]

  and had the character aware that she was [TS]

  in a comic book and she spent some time [TS]

  talking to the writer about the dubious [TS]

  decisions he was making with her series [TS]

  yes which is also the the hitters a [TS]

  great [TS]

  there's a greats I've got the trade and [TS]

  I think my absolute favorite part of the [TS]

  john byrne book is on pages 126 and 127 [TS]

  when she runs across the advertisement [TS]

  and she says don't ask questions were [TS]

  into the Zen of comic books here it only [TS]

  works if you don't think about it i have [TS]

  to note that the letters column for this [TS]

  comic was called shemale haha and also [TS]

  that there is a great cliffhanger f-in [TS]

  issue too i believe where they come up [TS]

  the shield said they actually cut off [TS]

  she-hulk's head and then for most of [TS]

  issue 3 [TS]

  she is a disembodied head is going to [TS]

  realize that in in like a very quick [TS]

  hand wave that it's all been a [TS]

  misdirection and her head was never [TS]

  actually cut off be but it doesn't [TS]

  matter anyway because it's just a comic [TS]

  book so here yet that that was pretty [TS]

  much the tone here it's funny I I guess [TS]

  John Byrne was kind of a made man marvel [TS]

  when he did this so he could do they're [TS]

  like whatever do whatever [TS]

  well he created creek he helped create [TS]

  kitty pryde with chris klem yeah so that [TS]

  that was a lot of money also he was big [TS]

  on the x-men way so he had the beard [TS]

  big run with claremont the x-men and he [TS]

  and and clairmont had a had a conflict [TS]

  creative conflict and so burn left and [TS]

  went off to do you know basically i [TS]

  forget the time and I think it was [TS]

  almost immediate that went off and did [TS]

  fantastic for which like jason said was [TS]

  a legendary run and that's the i [TS]

  remember reading that and that was he [TS]

  made it a you know bizarre sci-fi book [TS]

  put geochim the Fantastic Four for a [TS]

  while too so obviously he has this a [TS]

  great affinity for this character but if [TS]

  you like at that point he had enough [TS]

  cloud at marvel that they let him do [TS]

  this sensational she-hulk seriously it [TS]

  really only lasts eight issues Jason [TS]

  know it did a tissues under burn and [TS]

  then it's which direction and there was [TS]

  a different writer and artist but then [TS]

  burn came back with issue 32 and started [TS]

  off issue 32 with her waking up from a [TS]

  dream of the past whatever many issues [TS]

  and she left off initially and then [TS]

  continued the tone of issue 8 for [TS]

  another like 15 or 16 issues that [TS]

  haven't been reprinted well so yeah I [TS]

  don't know what led him to leave the [TS]

  book but he came back in and just picked [TS]

  up where he left off so i think the the [TS]

  tone essentially i always remember I [TS]

  didn't read this at the time when it [TS]

  came out but i do remember the first [TS]

  issue cover which was just a [TS]

  three-quarter shot of she-hulk standing [TS]

  there with holding an x-men comic in her [TS]

  hand and saying okay now is this is your [TS]

  second chance if you don't buy my book [TS]

  this time I'm going to come to your [TS]

  house and rip up all your x-men yeah [TS]

  yeah which i still remember those sort [TS]

  of ads in the Marvel comic didn't get me [TS]

  to read the book but I remember it [TS]

  this book has such great nineteen [TS]

  eighties aesthetics 20 I was the the [TS]

  first time I read through the john byrne [TS]

  Block III was transported back to the [TS]

  bush one administration for shock [TS]

  oh yeah that with it with the style that [TS]

  they draw the the hair everyone has this [TS]

  crazy full volume hair [TS]

  and and and she has a lot of green hair [TS]

  a giant mound of green hair on the top [TS]

  yes even when they make her the [TS]

  alter-ego glamazonian and they cover her [TS]

  with acres of makeup it's the same thing [TS]

  and john byrne also does a wonderful job [TS]

  of using people's physiognomies to [TS]

  broadcast whether they're good guys bad [TS]

  guys comic relief [TS]

  it's it's almost like anime where you've [TS]

  got these very clear visual conventions [TS]

  as to who falls we're on the heroism and [TS]

  villainy scale just based on how they're [TS]

  built in the page 86 in the trade as a [TS]

  great she's getting dressed for her new [TS]

  job as the assistant district attorney [TS]

  and it's just a panel after panel of a [TS]

  tease fashion [TS]

  oh yeah you don't reminds me of is a [TS]

  back in the nineteen twenties and [TS]

  thirties when there were several movies [TS]

  where you have these long fashion [TS]

  interludes we each have had obviously [TS]

  was just given free rein to throw up on [TS]

  the screen whatever she wanted and and [TS]

  this reminds me very much of those [TS]

  sequences where the characters have to [TS]

  politely be protected it politely [TS]

  pretend to be interested in a fashion [TS]

  show because I could but what is the [TS]

  point here oh if there ever was a [TS]

  character who didn't need shoulder pads [TS]

  it's this one it was the she-hulk right [TS]

  yeah it's amazing John Byrne is i mean [TS]

  he he represents the eighties and comics [TS]

  in it for me to be and I look at the art [TS]

  and I'm immediately transported back to [TS]

  those x-men issues to that fantastic [TS]

  four run to the original help Alpha [TS]

  Flight seriously I like right and this [TS]

  is this is not not something I was [TS]

  familiar with Owen roccat the hair with [TS]

  the crazy head pat benatar headband it [TS]

  to you [TS]

  oh my god yes yeah and the storytelling [TS]

  here is I mean it in in the shield [TS]

  series it's it's so strange and meta it [TS]

  is it is telling like that it's got the [TS]

  trappings of a comic book story but it's [TS]

  almost like something you'd see and you [TS]

  know Marvel always has been very self [TS]

  referential and and and this is you know [TS]

  whether it's a get whatever serving for [TS]

  Busher you know thinking food that is [TS]

  just merry Marvel marching Society this [TS]

  stone is kinda like that where it's like [TS]

  we're playing with these Marvel [TS]

  characters but it's never really serious [TS]

  and [TS]

  yeah it's but it's kind of bizarre [TS]

  actually because it's so broad and weird [TS]

  and yet then you know then there's a [TS]

  tie-in and and she's with the Fantastic [TS]

  Four it so it's a really it's kind of [TS]

  crazy but like i said i get the feeling [TS]

  like John Byrne was allowed latitude at [TS]

  least for a while he was allowed to [TS]

  latitude to just do these crazy stories [TS]

  type of structure that the all of the [TS]

  characters that he puts it the headmen [TS]

  in the first couple issues that cut off [TS]

  her head and that crazy one that had [TS]

  that red ball and then later dr. bong [TS]

  and stuff these are all Marvel villains [TS]

  that are terrible go back into the [TS]

  sixties and in things like that are just [TS]

  terrible and in fact that he goes and [TS]

  resurrect them and just embraces their [TS]

  terribleness a dr. bong was a Howard the [TS]

  doc villain as was that woman with the [TS]

  Roundhead so the fact he's using Howard [TS]

  the Duck villains to come in and find [TS]

  she-hulk amuse me to no end and the [TS]

  fight was still man i think it's some of [TS]

  still my of my favorite panels in comics [TS]

  in August issue for or page 102 of the [TS]

  trade where she's fighting still men and [TS]

  then he knocks her down by stamping on [TS]

  her into the subway which then does the [TS]

  banging of her head oh yeah as the train [TS]

  passes by and then she just pushes both [TS]

  legs collapsing still men and then catch [TS]

  him as he falls down i saw that page on [TS]

  ebay a while ago and bid on it but it [TS]

  went to high school man is there's [TS]

  another good villain there he's got [TS]

  stilts right he's really release home [TS]

  yeah watch out for me i have a tall and [TS]

  my center of gravity is a little bit [TS]

  often that's the same issue where she [TS]

  puts on the various outfits [TS]

  yeah that's a classic um so if it one of [TS]

  the things i think it's interesting [TS]

  about the she-hulk character [TS]

  particularly for the eighties you know [TS]

  the eighties when it was the dark knight [TS]

  and Batman year one and it was all about [TS]

  the grimace so serious [TS]

  superheroes and she's absolutely the [TS]

  exact opposite of that [TS]

  yeah off and it's awesome [TS]

  right because he's where it seems like [TS]

  his informal manifested through all of [TS]

  this should be comic should be fun you [TS]

  should always remember that it should be [TS]

  fun to read them and I'm having fun [TS]

  riding them [TS]

  mhm but it's just this whole book is [TS]

  just when i read the two back first-ever [TS]

  them separately gonna read them [TS]

  back-to-back and this book is just so [TS]

  much more fun unless honesty and she's [TS]

  gotta find sense of the absurd which [TS]

  when you think about the this year [TS]

  existence of a she hoped to begin with I [TS]

  think you kind of have to have a healthy [TS]

  appreciation for just completely [TS]

  ridiculous situations [TS]

  well I love the contrast between the two [TS]

  books because both are taking a humorous [TS]

  approach but a while in the the latter [TS]

  series that the dance lot series its [TS]

  he's trying to write a humorous story [TS]

  and where the john byrne stuff it's just [TS]

  he's kind of embracing the absurdity of [TS]

  comics [TS]

  yes and it not trying to write a funny [TS]

  story so much as just going to know what [TS]

  all comics are funny [TS]

  these are funny books and it's just [TS]

  completely ridiculous it is I I kind of [TS]

  find the single green female series by a [TS]

  lot to be kind of sad way it's it's a [TS]

  little depressing [TS]

  I'll be honest with you especially [TS]

  chicks kicked out of Avengers mansion [TS]

  uh-huh uh-huh i thought that was great [TS]

  well it's funny when even tony stark [TS]

  it's like okay you know what [TS]

  no this is pretty much under one roof [TS]

  but i really loved the the slot series [TS]

  which is from when when exactly so that [TS]

  was a after Marvel went into bankruptcy [TS]

  and we're looking at like early two [TS]

  thousands [TS]

  I'm and the reality thousands and comics [TS]

  joe quesada just became became editor in [TS]

  chief and was essentially Marvel have [TS]

  excellent news [TS]

  yeah there's nothing to lose so they [TS]

  were trying anything and this is one of [TS]

  those series with the kind of crazy [TS]

  direction of you know it essentially [TS]

  they're doing [TS]

  ally mcbeal with she-hulk yeah it's it's [TS]

  a that's that's probably explains why [TS]

  didn't connect with I really didn't like [TS]

  the series although i don't i don't [TS]

  think it i don't think i would say it's [TS]

  telling me feel like I would say it's [TS]

  almost like la la haha [TS]

  acceptance to love that little it's a [TS]

  superhero it's super hero law the whole [TS]

  idea is she's always been a lawyer why [TS]

  not do it so she gets hired for a law [TS]

  firm and it's great because she's having [TS]

  this crisis of confidence it's like you [TS]

  know it cannot be respected for Who I am [TS]

  i I'm only respected because I'm the [TS]

  she-hulk and even then not so much but [TS]

  in my regular life as an attorney [TS]

  Jennifer Walters all this so she finally [TS]

  gets this this break she thinks and it [TS]

  turns out it's to work at the law firm [TS]

  but it's to work in the superhero [TS]

  practice in the law firm which I love [TS]

  because it ends up being these stories [TS]

  where you know they're there they're [TS]

  still fight some things but but there [TS]

  are also these bizarre cases when you [TS]

  start to think about it in terms of of [TS]

  what would be the legal ramifications of [TS]

  having me superpower people around which [TS]

  I that tickled me and actually reminded [TS]

  me I mean Lee so you and I have talked a [TS]

  little bit about all some of those [TS]

  ramifications of the legal ramifications [TS]

  and what happens when the fights are [TS]

  over and you have to clean up after work [TS]

  because that the in a Marvel late [TS]

  eighties they they had a series called [TS]

  damage control which was about the [TS]

  construction company that was hired to [TS]

  always clean up after the superheroes [TS]

  messages [TS]

  wikipedia has something on yeah and [TS]

  actually in the dance lot series the [TS]

  damage control people are there it's [TS]

  where Hercules ends up getting a job [TS]

  right after he sued and loses all his [TS]

  money so I really I i really appreciated [TS]

  that there are these there's a trial [TS]

  where ghosts is called as a witness [TS]

  you know i love that it and she figures [TS]

  out why he's lying it's it's a yeah that [TS]

  so I really I i enjoyed it because it [TS]

  was not as the burn stuff is nice from a [TS]

  nostalgia purpose in it and it is crazy [TS]

  but the the slot series I you know I [TS]

  really I really enjoyed reading it I [TS]

  having not known that it even existed [TS]

  and and uh may I feel like I really [TS]

  gotta roll in and you know sad that [TS]

  obviously that it lasted almost no time [TS]

  but but i like the premise that that you [TS]

  know she's trying to be a superhero law [TS]

  as a premise it's it's ridiculous and [TS]

  and you know why not right [TS]

  I mean it's like I love that [TS]

  gnashing of those two things together [TS]

  and having this character who's kind of [TS]

  sympathetic because she wants to be more [TS]

  you know she knows that she's kind of a [TS]

  second-rate superhero and she wants to [TS]

  to do something unique and her real [TS]

  unique skill is that she's all she's [TS]

  super hero who's a lawyer so this is the [TS]

  perfect place for her in a way I feel [TS]

  like I think I feel like there's a lot [TS]

  of books that kind of tried that ground [TS]

  with because when you think about it if [TS]

  you're not in the DC Universe if you're [TS]

  not Superman Batman Wonder Woman you our [TS]

  second string if not third or fourth [TS]

  string and I can remember when i read [TS]

  the seven soldiers but grant morrison [TS]

  did that was the whole point to that was [TS]

  the whole cetana introduction was her [TS]

  awareness that you know she was she was [TS]

  not even be squad she was co-ed Squad [TS]

  and and marble kinda does that to ya [TS]

  I i think the differences is some some [TS]

  every hero is number one in their own [TS]

  comic book right and i think the [TS]

  difference is the heroes that realize [TS]

  that and likely she-hulk I see this [TS]

  they're not you know that they may be [TS]

  the star of their own lives but they [TS]

  know that they're not in a way that you [TS]

  know the flash maybe doesn't really [TS]

  understand that he's not as cool as some [TS]

  of the other people or Aquaman but but [TS]

  she holds like get Aquaman she know [TS]

  she's a second-stringer and she knows [TS]

  that there is this place way that she's [TS]

  unique and yeah so I think in the the [TS]

  burn series where it's the absurdity and [TS]

  it's just about she-hulk is having a [TS]

  great time and then the slot series they [TS]

  take that to the kind of extreme it [TS]

  starts off with she-hulk this party girl [TS]

  who's bringing home a different guy [TS]

  every night and wrecking the Avengers [TS]

  mansion with her parties and then [TS]

  they're throwing her out and it turns [TS]

  out she's kind of doing this because she [TS]

  is somewhat depressed or or not not [TS]

  happy with her life and there's that [TS]

  scene at the end of the first issue [TS]

  where she's in the bar and the the [TS]

  well-known villain the blizzard you know [TS]

  attacks are because she ruined his [TS]

  chance to be a a name and he's tired of [TS]

  being sent back to prison with all the [TS]

  other small-time losers and rather than [TS]

  fighting him [TS]

  she's like well you know do you want to [TS]

  drink in so okay shore and then they're [TS]

  just drunk talking about the bar about [TS]

  how he's talking about it's it's hard [TS]

  being a nobody [TS]

  nothing and she's like well it's [TS]

  actually not so great being somebody [TS]

  either and it's shallow and hollow and I [TS]

  thought that was kind of really [TS]

  interesting with the character and [TS]

  inmates speaks that sadness that you [TS]

  were talking about then she's got the [TS]

  offer at the law firm but not they don't [TS]

  want to hire she-hulk they want to hire [TS]

  Jen Walters who she's not a fan of but [TS]

  that yeah yeah but it and it's that [TS]

  either or right it's like when you take [TS]

  all of me is is basically the include [TS]

  the whole thing [TS]

  yeah so so I guess we've got you know a [TS]

  kind of a mixed response because i [TS]

  really like the dance lot series and i [TS]

  would recommend that to people because I [TS]

  thought it was kind of a kick and fun [TS]

  and and a different take on i just love [TS]

  those like let's take let's accept the [TS]

  superhero world and then say if that is [TS]

  a real world then lots of other things [TS]

  we come from it including how would how [TS]

  would the law deal with the superheroic [TS]

  you know events not whether its [TS]

  destruction or whether it's a possession [TS]

  or a ghost or whatever and that's what I [TS]

  really liked about it was kind of a [TS]

  light touch it was funny you know it i [TS]

  think the gin Walters is a likeable [TS]

  character and then you you get to see a [TS]

  corner of superhero dumb that you are [TS]

  you don't normally see which was it was [TS]

  fun it was a kick for me it and i love [TS]

  the character of Awesome Andy yes yes oh [TS]

  he was at the Whitney he starts [TS]

  communicating glyphs you find anything [TS]

  Yankee span right and awesome Andy out [TS]

  there is a he's the the mad thinkers [TS]

  synthetic android villain who has you [TS]

  know either gain consciousness or is [TS]

  malfunctioning depending on your point [TS]

  of view and he's sort of the is it go [TS]

  for his last letter of the law firm [TS]

  yeah well you and they refer to him is [TS]

  awesome hint awesome Andy again instead [TS]

  of having a superteam what they've got [TS]

  is a super law firm but you know what [TS]

  this book kind of reminded me of is the [TS]

  lunar brothers book ultra we're super [TS]

  Harold superhero team has been basically [TS]

  turned into a celebrity type of [TS]

  commodity they have they have award [TS]

  shows and there are subject to stuff and [TS]

  gossip magazines and there and a lot of [TS]

  the gossip is a lot of finger wagging [TS]

  over ethical concerns about what happens [TS]

  new data superhero eccentric cetera so [TS]

  there's a little bit of a zeitgeist a [TS]

  crossover and it was actually published [TS]

  on the same time too because ultra came [TS]

  out between august of 2004 marcha 2005 [TS]

  that said this one definitely has more [TS]

  tongue-in-cheek humor and I do like that [TS]

  they call back to us some of the classic [TS]

  she-hulk's definitely calling her silky [TS]

  as i pronounce it the thing called are [TS]

  shocking when he helps her move into her [TS]

  new apartment [TS]

  yeah i like when they sued when [TS]

  Spiderman sued the Daily Bugle okay yeah [TS]

  and jefferson st dress up like a chicken [TS]

  yeah yes sir funny it is but it's it's [TS]

  the ally mcbeal 5i can't quite get over [TS]

  and and I'm it that's my own personal [TS]

  bias i think that's yeah I think that's [TS]

  your own baggage there is that I don't [TS]

  admit it is so what I think I thought [TS]

  was interesting you know we've talked [TS]

  about female characters in comics before [TS]

  and is I always find it interesting when [TS]

  those discussions come up that she hulk [TS]

  is never mentioned even though she sort [TS]

  of headline her own book what three or [TS]

  four times now and and wild each [TS]

  individual series may not have been like [TS]

  a huge commercial sack success writers [TS]

  are certainly interested in her but [TS]

  she's never brought up in those calm [TS]

  those conversations when you know people [TS]

  are talking about Catwoman or or [TS]

  batwoman or Supergirl or any of those [TS]

  sort of or Wonder Woman you know but [TS]

  here these books where it's a in [TS]

  interesting female lead and you know [TS]

  maybe it's because the books are taken [TS]

  more humor direction that they're not [TS]

  taken seriously [TS]

  yeah I how wonder how much of that is [TS]

  that she's seen not just as a I mean she [TS]

  seen as a derivative character to I mean [TS]

  I i mentioned the whole before and i [TS]

  would like to talk about other kind of [TS]

  Hulk family related things but but that [TS]

  comes to part of the problem with the [TS]

  she-hulk is that you know she is [TS]

  literally the xi dash [TS]

  other character right she is she is the [TS]

  derivative female offshoot of popular [TS]

  character and I think that I think [TS]

  that's part of the problem is that she's [TS]

  not you know she gets the name [TS]

  recognition because she's got holcomb [TS]

  title and she's green but she also is [TS]

  always going to be viewed as as a you [TS]

  know a spin-off character she doesn't [TS]

  even have her own identity really she's [TS]

  just the female version of The Hulk and [TS]

  you get to know the character and you [TS]

  know that there's a lot more there but [TS]

  you know the fact is from from a [TS]

  distance she's not really iconic she's [TS]

  just a female spin on us a different [TS]

  iconic character which is you know not [TS]

  the same thing [TS]

  what I guess but I what I'm getting hung [TS]

  up on is because you mentioned whole [TS]

  family and I thought you know there's [TS]

  actually been fairly successful back [TS]

  family they've managed to spend it out [TS]

  where you had batman batgirl batwoman [TS]

  yes Batman Incorporated Batman limited [TS]

  liability corporation and then you that [TS]

  you've got Nightwing and ride the [TS]

  different Robbins whom I've lost track [TS]

  of and that wing darkwing yeah why [TS]

  couldn't I couldn't you were mrs. Batman [TS]

  that was less successful mrs. Batman [TS]

  no you're right it's been franchised in [TS]

  a way and yeah and that's it and that's [TS]

  fairly clever but i don't know maybe [TS]

  that's sweet generous to the DC universe [TS]

  because I can't think of another of [TS]

  another mark a type hero in DC that's [TS]

  managed to feel about so well maybe the [TS]

  marbles with Miss marked with Mary [TS]

  marble and Captain Marvel but that still [TS]

  fairly limited whereas if you had [TS]

  somebody could have Holcomb and she [TS]

  hoped but they still haven't managed to [TS]

  build that kind of look they all have [TS]

  something in well other than being big [TS]

  and green the characters actually have [TS]

  nothing in common [TS]

  where I never wear whereas i guess the [TS]

  thing with the bat with with the [TS]

  bat-family is that whereas they all kind [TS]

  of have a shared ethos maybe as long as [TS]

  the ethos starts with we don't ever [TS]

  question birth way right work we're all [TS]

  mad Bruce Wayne's parents were killed [TS]

  yes definitely keeps trying to to build [TS]

  these family things I mean there how [TS]

  many x-men books now and how many [TS]

  Avengers books for which they're used to [TS]

  read have been a lot of x-men books for [TS]

  a long time but now there are a lot of [TS]

  and different kinds of Avengers yeah and [TS]

  and with Hulk you know they have the [TS]

  they have like the Red Hulk and they had [TS]

  scar son of hulk and they have the [TS]

  incredible hulk and they had the [TS]

  although you it was Hercules for a while [TS]

  and and you know it did so they're [TS]

  trying to to do that which is actually a [TS]

  little surprised there isn't more [TS]

  she-hulk action going on since at Marvel [TS]

  is trying to build these you know I [TS]

  think that's part of the strategy is to [TS]

  build these worlds within I could say [TS]

  worlds within worlds here and make [TS]

  micronauts reference so i might as well [TS]

  do that if you get these little worlds [TS]

  right where it's not that you don't have [TS]

  to read every marvel it's somewhere in [TS]

  between reading like all the Marvel [TS]

  titles and reading one book it's to say [TS]

  a hot now what you're going to do is [TS]

  you're going to read these six that are [TS]

  all underneath the x-men family where [TS]

  the Avengers family and they kind of [TS]

  with with like the Red Hulk especially [TS]

  there are trying to say can we do more [TS]

  Hulk's can we add some Hulk's there's a [TS]

  red she-hulk now [TS]

  yes there is a red she-hulk right it's [TS]

  that so there's like it is the whole [TS]

  family that's why i keep saying is [TS]

  they've you know tried to spread it out [TS]

  and make make them be more Hulk's which [TS]

  is weird since like the Hulk was this [TS]

  whole gamma bomb experiment gone wrong [TS]

  and they've managed to now she hoped it [TS]

  was became she helped because of a blood [TS]

  transfusion yes as a patient banners [TS]

  radioactive blood and then hope the the [TS]

  scar son of hulk came from that whole [TS]

  planet whole series yes we're still [TS]

  stuck at the whole kind of spaceship and [TS]

  were like yeah [TS]

  better luck next time sucker so right [TS]

  I'm holding in my hands the plan a whole [TS]

  card cover by the way and as somebody [TS]

  who is not my girlfriend in high school [TS]

  actually ended up marrying the guy who [TS]

  may be the biggest incredible hulk fan [TS]

  in the in the world and I i find that [TS]

  amusing because I I like comics and I [TS]

  never been a fan of the Hulk at all but [TS]

  i gotta say planet hulk by Greg POC is [TS]

  great and not just because there are [TS]

  many things in it that are micro notes [TS]

  references there are though there are [TS]

  three probably one of the Micronauts to [TS]

  when he was a kid but it's a great [TS]

  self-contained story because literally [TS]

  yeah Lisa they shoot the Hulk away in a [TS]

  spaceship and say see you later because [TS]

  you [TS]

  stop breaking our planet and they write [TS]

  and send them off to another planet [TS]

  which of course precedes to break but uh [TS]

  huh [TS]

  it's a great self-contained story [TS]

  because he starts with nothing and he in [TS]

  there is the this kind of complexity of [TS]

  what's going on this planet and its this [TS]

  wild adventure where he goes from being [TS]

  it's like gladiator with the whole key [TS]

  starts in the in the pits as a warrior [TS]

  you know for for people's amusement and [TS]

  he over time becomes essentially the [TS]

  ruler of the planet in this in in this [TS]

  12 issues story arc and it's a great [TS]

  story so you know that that and and out [TS]

  of that spun world war hulk in the and [TS]

  the scar son of hulk spin-off and things [TS]

  like that and i think i think maybe [TS]

  that's what gave the Hulk a lot of [TS]

  velocity is it because Hulk as a [TS]

  character is kinda in some ways is kind [TS]

  of boring because you know he smashes [TS]

  things and and nobody can really decide [TS]

  to see is you have is a really [TS]

  intelligent or not intelligent at all or [TS]

  somewhere in between and planet hulk I [TS]

  felt like they gave him some definition [TS]

  and kind of a purpose and kind of a [TS]

  collection of characters around him and [TS]

  I think they coasted on that or or that [TS]

  may be unfair to say I think it took [TS]

  advantage of that for a while because it [TS]

  was like oh ok this character now has [TS]

  some definition that it it never really [TS]

  had before well I think the earlier in [TS]

  the the late eighties early nineties [TS]

  when Peter David was running the the [TS]

  Hulk franchise in and did a fairly [TS]

  classic run on the Hulk he tried to [TS]

  address that by essentially introducing [TS]

  the idea that the Hulk was because [TS]

  banner was abused as a child the the [TS]

  Hulk was a manifestation of his his [TS]

  childhood rage and then he became the [TS]

  gray Hawk which was his sort of [TS]

  repressed a [TS]

  it is repressed sexual side and they'll [TS]

  do there's a better better explained [TS]

  with a great help it i really like that [TS]

  Peter David run because the menus the [TS]

  grey Hulk which was a the window help [TS]

  first came out he was grey and then for [TS]

  issues later they made him green for no [TS]

  other reason than the printer really [TS]

  couldn't get gray right which was a [TS]

  problem with printing back in the [TS]

  sixties on newspaper and so they went ok [TS]

  fine make them green so then Peter David [TS]

  brought back the grey Hulk through this [TS]

  when you're one of the banner trying to [TS]

  separate himself from Hulk things and [TS]

  the grey Hulk was smaller not as strong [TS]

  as the green Hulk didn't come out [TS]

  because of anger came out at at night I [TS]

  mean it was a nocturnal thing but he had [TS]

  intelligence and he was mean and nasty [TS]

  and so what he ended up doing was he the [TS]

  great whole nightmare character [TS]

  what was it this the series then it sort [TS]

  of had this big break where oh my god [TS]

  what happened to Hulk is he dead or not [TS]

  and then it jumps forward a period of [TS]

  time and there's this character in vegas [TS]

  who's working as a essentially a bouncer [TS]

  at a casino in Vegas named Joe fix fix [TS]

  that right who's the grey Hulk and he [TS]

  establishes a life for himself and he [TS]

  gets a girlfriend and a job and you know [TS]

  there's a whole cast of characters in [TS]

  vegas at the casino he works for and it [TS]

  was really intriguing and then what had [TS]

  had what he was doing was taking [TS]

  sleeping pills so then banner would [TS]

  sleep through the day and he'd be the [TS]

  hulk at night and then what Peter David [TS]

  did was eventually the banner kept [TS]

  started coming out and all throughout [TS]

  the hooks history it was the Hulk was [TS]

  effing with banners life and peter david [TS]

  turned on his head and I was the Hulk [TS]

  who had a life and and are kept coming [TS]

  back and trying to mess with like the [TS]

  Hulk's life in vegas and i really like [TS]

  the Joe fix it [TS]

  character and he had this girlfriend Lea [TS]

  Marlo and then later on you know Betty [TS]

  Bruce banners girlfriend sometimes wife [TS]

  came back and then so you had either [TS]

  banner or the Hulk hanging out with both [TS]

  their girlfriend and the other [TS]

  personalities girlfriend which led to [TS]

  awkward [TS]

  conversations there was like basically a [TS]

  cast of characters and some really [TS]

  interesting things happening and then [TS]

  Peter David merge the different [TS]

  personalities and that's when the smart [TS]

  Hulk came out and it was banner as the [TS]

  hulk and that lasted a few years where [TS]

  he didn't change anymore and he had [TS]

  intelligence but it was big and strong [TS]

  and green III my favorite of all the [TS]

  hooks tough is that that run where it [TS]

  was Joe fix it in vegas just because it [TS]

  flipped the entire kind of dynamic of [TS]

  the series III I that's good i i i [TS]

  highly recommend intern planet hulk I [TS]

  think there's some so it's interesting [TS]

  because we're talking about the halkan [TS]

  comics you know the Hulk is a [TS]

  problematic character in general right [TS]

  because wewe look-look at the movies [TS]

  I hate right with that they've made to [TS]

  movies the only two movies really in [TS]

  Marvel's collection of movies recently [TS]

  that have been almost entirely [TS]

  unsuccessful electra daredevil yeah well [TS]

  okay so the ones that are kind of under [TS]

  Marvel's don't know there's a difference [TS]

  between the ones they went off and other [TS]

  studios produce them but in the words [TS]

  you're introducing themselves like they [TS]

  tried it with Angli and then they tried [TS]

  again with that French director in there [TS]

  that where Edward Norton rewrote I've [TS]

  seen both of them and and the and i [TS]

  think the general feeling is that the [TS]

  movies didn't really get the Hulk right [TS]

  until the Avengers you know so we added [TS]

  many Avengers there's a struggle and [TS]

  there's a lot of confusion from people [TS]

  who've seen the adventures about the [TS]

  Hulk there because the implication if [TS]

  you watch The Avengers a couple of times [TS]

  is that he is the rules are [TS]

  he's an uncontrollable rage monster when [TS]

  he rages out and becomes the Hulk but [TS]

  when he chooses to turn into the hulk [TS]

  there's more intelligence murder [TS]

  yeah he can he can collaborate right [TS]

  right so you get a little bit of both [TS]

  because that's the thing with the Hulk [TS]

  is he you know it's fun to watch him [TS]

  just be an uncontrollable rage monster [TS]

  but there's not a lot you can do with [TS]

  that character he just he's like a [TS]

  tornado week appears and destroys things [TS]

  and then goes away but if you can give [TS]

  him a little bit of intelligence that he [TS]

  becomes a little bit more interesting [TS]

  and then then he can become evil that [TS]

  the classic TV series did a good job [TS]

  with Hulk was just a rage monster you [TS]

  know with Bill Bixby in blue free male 1 [TS]

  yeah it dramatically it kind of cuts you [TS]

  off from a lot of possibilities there [TS]

  and it's true that series was difficult [TS]

  because it was like I mean it was really [TS]

  a repetitive show and i watched it as a [TS]

  kid but I mean literally every week he [TS]

  would just go to a town and befriend [TS]

  somebody and the hawk would appear in a [TS]

  crusading reporter would be chasing him [TS]

  and you know it was it was kind of all [TS]

  the same and a movie you know I think [TS]

  yeah I think your little you need more [TS]

  it's really interesting you know I'm [TS]

  amazed that the Hulk is recognizable and [TS]

  successful character as he is and has [TS]

  had the spin-offs and created the [TS]

  she-hulk and all these other things [TS]

  because like a dinosaur in the sense [TS]

  that little kids think the dinosaurs are [TS]

  cool and you love looking at their [TS]

  castles and the truth of the matter is [TS]

  if you ran across a 12-foot tall lizard [TS]

  that is capable of snapping you in half [TS]

  like an hors d'oeuvre you'd be filled [TS]

  with the combination of terror and [TS]

  loathing and I I think maybe the whole [TS]

  case the same way we're so long as Jesus [TS]

  fictitious giant agent of chaos you know [TS]

  you enjoy that he has other people [TS]

  headaches and you just don't have to [TS]

  examine it very closely and sometimes I [TS]

  think the whole cause a better idea [TS]

  better at you know on paper than in [TS]

  practice just in general that it's a [TS]

  cool idea and judiciously use which may [TS]

  also be part of the trick of why it [TS]

  works in the Avengers is that it's not a [TS]

  movie about him and he can be a small [TS]

  part of his kind of the garnish the [TS]

  parsley of UV and it also helps that [TS]

  microphone robert downey jr have worked [TS]

  together before they've got a nice [TS]

  chemistry [TS]

  oh yeah that's the he's now because [TS]

  banner and getting all about their [TS]

  cameras yeah and the interaction between [TS]

  banner and Tony Stark [TS]

  yeah so you know I I'm you know I think [TS]

  the Hulk is really a problematic [TS]

  character and it's amazing but there's [TS]

  obviously as my high school girlfriends [TS]

  husband would attest you know he [TS]

  obviously has some some huge appeal [TS]

  because he's got he's got his fans and I [TS]

  think maybe it has to do with these kind [TS]

  of you know places where it goes off [TS]

  into unexpected areas whether you're [TS]

  sending them to another planet or you're [TS]

  giving him [TS]

  a job in Las Vegas and have and flipping [TS]

  the whole thing on its head [TS]

  you know that may be but again what does [TS]

  that say about the character that the [TS]

  most interesting things are when you da [TS]

  ya from his from his scripted role you [TS]

  have smart writers who are like what can [TS]

  i do this to make this interesting and [TS]

  it's not the core it's something very [TS]

  different [TS]

  what was he created what was about what [TS]

  about what he was in the the 63 or 64 he [TS]

  was one of the original you know Marvel [TS]

  fantastic for spider-man 92 it's us so [TS]

  it's the original marble wondering if [TS]

  he's basically a relic of his time [TS]

  because when you think about it we tend [TS]

  to treat anti-heroes and heroes much [TS]

  differently than when the Hawks not a [TS]

  hero either right and he's not you know [TS]

  he's basically chaotic neutral at best [TS]

  candy alignment back back in the day [TS]

  when it was a small Marvel Universe he [TS]

  was the anti character who would appear [TS]

  you don't fight the Fantastic Four he [TS]

  would fight he was the cause of the [TS]

  Avengers getting together raising the [TS]

  Ultimate Universe he's basically doing [TS]

  that too because Bruce Banner is just [TS]

  this despicable tony little scientist [TS]

  and he ends up being a lot more trouble [TS]

  than he's worth especially as the Hulk [TS]

  right it's actually I'm glad you brought [TS]

  up ultimate Hulk because I think that's [TS]

  a really sort of good writing of the [TS]

  character in that he's justice you know [TS]

  rage monster who goes around eating [TS]

  people and and threatening sexual in [TS]

  violence against folks Freddie Prinze [TS]

  jr. and back and send some the shield [TS]

  and the Ultimate Universe there-there [TS]

  there-there basically just a bunch of [TS]

  cold-hearted sob ease their entire mo [TS]

  for keeping him alive until it's too [TS]

  inconvenient for Bruce to be alive is [TS]

  how can we use this to our advantage in [TS]

  a world where you're getting invaded by [TS]

  crazy aliens and there are despots and [TS]

  so on and so forth and then the Ultimate [TS]

  Universe they do try to kill him [TS]

  it obviously doesn't take ya to right [TS]

  it's it's a solution that's actually [TS]

  another a lot of people who have very [TS]

  strong feelings about the Ultimate [TS]

  Universe one way or the other and one of [TS]

  the things I've always enjoyed about the [TS]

  ultimate is some [TS]

  actually do kill people will be [TS]

  different for tactical or strategic [TS]

  reasons or because they're just jerk [TS]

  wads and I've always up and we'll let [TS]

  your words [TS]

  oh yeah no and put that closes plot [TS]

  loopholes that get introduced in other [TS]

  you know mainstream books for you where [TS]

  you can't have Captain America go [TS]

  shooting people because he's captain [TS]

  america or while the x-men can always [TS]

  find magneto to a draw but no one is [TS]

  ever going to blow his head off [TS]

  um and I i like i like that the writers [TS]

  and the ultimate books always had the [TS]

  guts to close those loopholes even [TS]

  though it makes for some depressing [TS]

  reading after a while [TS]

  yes but you end up ultimate Hulk big fan [TS]

  that's president captain america to you [TS]

  by the way oh so they've gone off the [TS]

  rails a bit huh [TS]

  I've only read the first two drives so [TS]

  far so steve is technically only coming [TS]

  in from the cold by the time I've got [TS]

  around to it and you don't actually [TS]

  bother going beyond those first two [TS]

  trades of the I enjoy having read riches [TS]

  a supervillain now that is that is [TS]

  clever but i bet i'm basically sticking [TS]

  with ultimate spider-man only but yeah [TS]

  but uh I do like the idea that that [TS]

  ultimate Reed Richards is a crazy bad [TS]

  guy [TS]

  oh yeah really big sense because they [TS]

  made him socially maladaptive and smart [TS]

  and you know it's it's it's a good [TS]

  combination for people who are well I'm [TS]

  smarter than you and I have a grudge so [TS]

  here I go [TS]

  so the have you seen the new [TS]

  indestructible hulk series by Mark Waid [TS]

  that I guess is currently on issue [TS]

  number four I have this whole Marvel now [TS]

  so the premise there is kind of playing [TS]

  off the avengers movie [TS]

  Steve or bruce banner has decided you [TS]

  know he is one of the smartest guys on [TS]

  the planet but because of this whole [TS]

  raging Hulk monster thing he doesn't [TS]

  have any respect and actually isn't [TS]

  doing any good and you know you have [TS]

  Tony Stark going out and doing all these [TS]

  amazing things and Reed Richards you [TS]

  know saving the world and he why can't [TS]

  he do that so he goes to shield with an [TS]

  offer that says essentially you give me [TS]

  an unlimited budget and a staff and i [TS]

  will give you like you know inventions [TS]

  that will transform the planet and you [TS]

  know feed the sick and all that kind of [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  and what you get out of it in return is [TS]

  that you can use the Hulk as a strategic [TS]

  bomb actually and so he's done this deal [TS]

  but it's all about he feels inferior to [TS]

  tony stark and wants to do something [TS]

  about that tired of being the agent of [TS]

  chaos and wants to right-center I can't [TS]

  i be mr. science man so he's made this [TS]

  deal where shield gets the house this [TS]

  house like white thank him [TS]

  yeah a bit yeah I can't him yeah since [TS]

  one of hankgames problems other than [TS]

  beating his wife is the fact that he's [TS]

  definitely like a second-tier intellect [TS]

  in a world that has a lot of very showy [TS]

  first your intellect and the they hanged [TS]

  him Bruce Banner thing always bugged me [TS]

  because it's you know how many times can [TS]

  we have the brilliant scientist well I [TS]

  mean Reed Richards to right it's like [TS]

  how many times is a brilliant scientist [TS]

  with the personality problems course you [TS]

  know banners personality problems tend [TS]

  to like destroy cities so that's extreme [TS]

  yeah and then kill multiple people so do [TS]

  we have more on on the whole career we [TS]

  walked out [TS]

  are we are we slowly shrinking back into [TS]

  our human form [TS]

  honestly this discussion has made me [TS]

  appreciate john byrne she-hulk more haha [TS]

  no it has because there's a sense of [TS]

  humor there and you can kind of here ok [TS]

  here's another reason to appreciate it [TS]

  and none of these writers came close to [TS]

  it but if you take a look at a lot of [TS]

  the x-men for example you've got some [TS]

  very powerful female mutants and they're [TS]

  all incredibly attractive and well [TS]

  within like the normal parameters for [TS]

  for the way women are supposed to look [TS]

  you know they're all different [TS]

  they feel a white look at bikini nicely [TS]

  Emma or haha or even though they're just [TS]

  adorable little mini dress Rachel [TS]

  summers or or what have you [TS]

  I can't we just say that Emma Frost is [TS]

  basically just wearing lingerie now [TS]

  she's even given up that [TS]

  yeah treaties of it pants are for [TS]

  suckers she says before because but [TS]

  you've got somebody in she-hulk who is [TS]

  basically this manifestation of you know [TS]

  incredible uncompromising strength and [TS]

  she falls a little bit outside the [TS]

  parameters for attractiveness and you [TS]

  burn makes her very attractive but he [TS]

  also makes it clear that she's something [TS]

  of a physical freak [TS]

  it's an interesting commentary on on how [TS]

  strong women or or extremely strong [TS]

  women outside the parameters of social [TS]

  of social acceptance are viewed and [TS]

  treated in society and the choices they [TS]

  have in dealing with it and I'm kind of [TS]

  relieved in a way that they actually [TS]

  play this is a community thing instead [TS]

  of you know a serious meditation on [TS]

  limited power and strength and blur blur [TS]

  blur but I i find it interesting that [TS]

  that was she hulk you actually have the [TS]

  opportunity to have a character that can [TS]

  make people think for a minute about ok [TS]

  maybe one of the reasons is difficult [TS]

  for is because she isn't five-foot-six [TS]

  and filling out a black spandex catsuit [TS]

  light like a Roman row or anything like [TS]

  that you know she's seven feet tall and [TS]

  she's got you know 15 inch wide [TS]

  shoulders and and she's bright green [TS]

  here's here's what I'd say about shield [TS]

  because i always have been impressed [TS]

  that shield is a character that is it [TS]

  she's a woman whose big and strong and [TS]

  athletic and has muscles and yet is you [TS]

  know always portrayed as having feminine [TS]

  qualities to die and i think that's good [TS]

  because you know you don't I honestly I [TS]

  think you don't see a lot of for trails [TS]

  of characters like that they they tend [TS]

  to be you know even women superheroes [TS]

  like you said they tend to be more [TS]

  shaped like supermodels [TS]

  yeah and and there's a tendency that if [TS]

  they're not that they're you know that [TS]

  they're not considered i'm not i'm not [TS]

  actually saying what I think i'm about [TS]

  to say which is that [TS]

  yay big strong muscle eat all women can [TS]

  be treated bisect but as sex objects in [TS]

  the comics to woo [TS]

  but there is something at this is [TS]

  backward feminism I realize but it's [TS]

  like you know just because she's strong [TS]

  and has muscles and install it doesn't [TS]

  she [TS]

  siren is not desirable just mean that [TS]

  she's not a woman and an end it and and [TS]

  drip dresses like a woman in it and is [TS]

  and this has feminine aspects too i [TS]

  think that's kind of cool that her [TS]

  femininity is still intact even though [TS]

  she's big and strong [TS]

  this is my problem with Marvel movies [TS]

  and things like that that was he like [TS]

  you take a look and see the x-men movies [TS]

  and you've got these women who were all [TS]

  obviously models before they became [TS]

  actors with with the exception of Abby [TS]

  Anakin and I just keep thinking these [TS]

  people babies these women are supposed [TS]

  to be going [TS]

  up against you know like the US Army or [TS]

  or this horde of angry mutants and [TS]

  they're all soft and willowy and super [TS]

  good they can be snapped in half by a [TS]

  pretzel stick which because they could [TS]

  but yeah yeah yeah and you know what you [TS]

  think about the Avengers is kind of the [TS]

  same thing where I mean scarlett [TS]

  johansson is is not exactly wave-like [TS]

  and she feels that a black cap sit [TS]

  nicely but she's not what she doesn't [TS]

  look like something you know she's not [TS]

  built like somebody who who obviously [TS]

  spends a lot of their time breaking [TS]

  people's snapping people's necks with [TS]

  her thighs or whatever raise the black [TS]

  was supposed to be able to do so the the [TS]

  second series of the sensational Sherri [TS]

  Colburn came back which is a issues 31 [TS]

  through 50 they play on that a bit more [TS]

  were essentially because of various [TS]

  things happening in issues g ends up [TS]

  being naked in a lot of them and most of [TS]

  the time turns to burnish I don't care [TS]

  how many more copies this is going to [TS]

  sell [TS]

  yeah I i had not doing it including the [TS]

  cover of issue 40 what you're looking at [TS]

  right now has heard naked on the cover [TS]

  but she's sort of covering herself up [TS]

  with the comics code Authority label [TS]

  funny and burns hand is coming in from [TS]

  off-screen holding a jump rope and she's [TS]

  saying hey no you're kidding right look [TS]

  if you say quit stalling we've got 22 [TS]

  pages to fill all god that's funny i [TS]

  just looked it up in the first six [TS]

  phases Jess you can pick you up [TS]

  apparently naked jen complaints a [TS]

  respected superheroes being reduced this [TS]

  due to a simple joke she made the [TS]

  letters column all my lord mayor of the [TS]

  Avengers it's it's a it gets pretty [TS]

  funny [TS]

  that's great and and then throw in the [TS]

  shower after that [TS]

  good lord busy great we've learned more [TS]

  about the shithole [TS]

  well yes that she's apparently allergic [TS]

  to cards if your stomach is any [TS]

  indication oh that's delightful she's [TS]

  got the gamma induced metabolism that [TS]

  just can't be [TS]

  yeah i think the district's reading the [TS]

  dance lot story now it feels a little [TS]

  bit more dated to me in some ways like I [TS]

  know you were saying that the burn stuff [TS]

  feels very eighties [TS]

  it looks very eighties but the writing [TS]

  is not if that makes sense [TS]

  yeah it's like when you watch them would [TS]

  be singing in the rain it feels kind of [TS]

  modern even though this very obviously [TS]

  made the nineteen fifties its yeah [TS]

  Andy's comics feel like home to me so [TS]

  sure [TS]

  so I i happen to like them but i think [TS]

  that the burn series every now and [TS]

  probably every three or four years I i [TS]

  pick it up off the shelf and read it [TS]

  again and enjoy it every time [TS]

  oh yeah so should we move on and talk a [TS]

  little bit about what we're reading [TS]

  short I'm embarrassed to say I have i [TS]

  don't think i've read much since the [TS]

  last time we talked yes I I've read [TS]

  something in the last time this is [TS]

  really my excuse to say that i want to [TS]

  thank you i think Jason for recommending [TS]

  in our last comic book club recommending [TS]

  Hawkeye oh yeah Matt Fraction yeah [TS]

  you're liking it so let me let liking it [TS]

  i have purchased and read every single [TS]

  issue of it [TS]

  yeah Matt Fraction Hawkeye the new [TS]

  series for Marvel up to what is it now i [TS]

  think i think it's up to issue a team [TS]

  out [TS]

  yeah I cannot begin to describe how much [TS]

  i love Hawkeye and I you know that don't [TS]

  you feel weird saying that are you [TS]

  reading this on the ipad i am reading it [TS]

  on the ipad i know it is a bizarre [TS]

  statement i cannot Jason I can't believe [TS]

  I'm even saying these words because it's [TS]

  Hawkeye come on i remember in the West [TS]

  Coast Avengers and bought with [TS]

  Mockingbird and all that the Hawkeye [TS]

  Matt Fraction series is so great it is [TS]

  one of the best comics i have read in [TS]

  the last decade [TS]

  it is so great so i recommend to anybody [TS]

  i think the first trade is coming out [TS]

  this month next month soon yet i think [TS]

  the first rates like next month order go [TS]

  get it when I will get them or just or [TS]

  just by the demon Marvel does a good job [TS]

  with the discounting is older issues on [TS]

  comixology so the older issues are like [TS]

  199 or something like that [TS]

  I i can't recommend it highly enough let [TS]

  me count the ways I know Jason talked [TS]

  about this a little bit too [TS]

  in our last conquer club it you know the [TS]

  idea is it's when he's not with [TS]

  Avengers it's like dealing with problems [TS]

  in his personal life and he's kind of [TS]

  ammo piece kind of a kind of a schlub of [TS]

  a guy other than that he's got his super [TS]

  arrow powers and he only has the [TS]

  superhero powers right so people can [TS]

  like beat him up and unless he can shoot [TS]

  him with an arrow there's not a lot he [TS]

  can do and so it's his like personal [TS]

  like almost every issue starts out with [TS]

  him saying okay this looks bad and Renee [TS]

  resolves what's going on that has led [TS]

  him to this point the so story-wise it's [TS]

  great because it's me it's their mundane [TS]

  elements and then mixed in with kind of [TS]

  crime and superhero elements so in the [TS]

  first issue there is the these kind of [TS]

  read Russian mobsters who are doing kind [TS]

  of like a shakedown on the people in his [TS]

  apartment building and there's a dog [TS]

  that he's trying to take to the vet and [TS]

  and it's a thing of beauty in the world [TS]

  so so I love the story aspect of Hawkeye [TS]

  but the other thing i want to talk about [TS]

  is the is the the art and the design of [TS]

  the comic because it's yeah and the [TS]

  coloring it's amazing so the covers are [TS]

  beautiful the covers are just i mean the [TS]

  the covers alone are worth it because [TS]

  they are these beautifully designed [TS]

  images on these covers it's not like any [TS]

  other comic cover you're going to see [TS]

  and then the way the issues are built [TS]

  the the style of the art style the [TS]

  panels are a lot of blocky panel sort of [TS]

  like you know three rows of three that [TS]

  happy you get that a lot that the art [TS]

  style is a little bit rough but but [TS]

  really really nice in its own way and [TS]

  and you've got to see it to understand [TS]

  it but it's really very stylized and yet [TS]

  really inviting and then the coloring is [TS]

  the most amazing thing because Hawkeyes [TS]

  a purple superhero right which can be [TS]

  problematic not everybody likes purple [TS]

  but the way this issue these comics are [TS]

  colored is there in shades of purple [TS]

  it's very monochromatic Lee colored [TS]

  important as compact as old uniform [TS]

  exactly and it's and it's and it's been [TS]

  the color alone is so amazingly [TS]

  beautiful and it's because of the [TS]

  palette and and and the colors that get [TS]

  chosen and and it's it doesn't look like [TS]

  any comic that I've seen recently [TS]

  certainly mainstream comic and that sort [TS]

  of my bottom line about when I as I'm [TS]

  raving about Hawkeye here is that this [TS]

  is a marvel comic said in the marvel [TS]

  universe with a character who's in the [TS]

  Avengers which is the number one Marvel [TS]

  property right now and it reads like an [TS]

  indie comic about sort of you know again [TS]

  satirizing things on the edge of [TS]

  superhero tropes it never feels like [TS]

  it's not taking its its characters and [TS]

  situations seriously you know it's not a [TS]

  self it's not a parody but it's very [TS]

  knowing about all those tropes and it's [TS]

  trying to tell some interesting stories [TS]

  out on the edges and I'm kind of amazed [TS]

  that it's being published by Marvel [TS]

  because that's an act of confidence in [TS]

  that fraction but it's it is it really [TS]

  is astounding i was i was blown away [TS]

  when i started to read because it was [TS]

  not what I expected and it in it and [TS]

  it's good in so many on so many [TS]

  different axes it's good in art and [TS]

  color and story and dialogue the [TS]

  dialogue is laugh-out-loud funny i had [TS]

  to read dialogue from the comic to my [TS]

  wife because she was looking at me like [TS]

  why are you laughing so hard at because [TS]

  just the dialogue is funny so you know [TS]

  again I can't say if you're if you're [TS]

  somebody who likes comics good comics [TS]

  you should you should read this matt [TS]

  fraction Hawkeye because it's it's a [TS]

  really really good comics oh thank you [TS]

  Jason for recommending it I I took your [TS]

  recommendation and checked it out and [TS]

  then I could have stopped because it its [TS]

  it's yeah it's great it's it's shocking [TS]

  how good you would never imagine that a [TS]

  comic about Hawkeye would be that good [TS]

  yeah it's great it's beautiful it and in [TS]

  the storytelling isn't isn't always [TS]

  linear which is also nice that a lot of [TS]

  coming back and forth it's not it's not [TS]

  a dumb comments a very smart comment [TS]

  that requires attention and and is very [TS]

  rewarding it's yeah it's really good so [TS]

  excited about this guy yes you couldn't [TS]

  believe you're excited about Hawkeye but [TS]

  there you are right side pocket [TS]

  I like to meet again this is my team I [TS]

  like him in the ultimates [TS]

  I like the way they run the ultimate [TS]

  essentially now the marvel universe is [TS]

  what they did in the ultimate [TS]

  practically Yeah Yeah right down to Nick [TS]

  Fury jr. right now is just Nick Fury [TS]

  except black and looks like Samuel [TS]

  Jackson it's really disconcerting [TS]

  actually to go back to the the ultimate [TS]

  books that they wrote back before they [TS]

  started making all the Marvel movies it [TS]

  and realize how the Nick Fury character [TS]

  doesn't doesn't look like Sam Jackson [TS]

  and then when you see him play dive at [TS]

  the time I sort of mix them up my hands [TS]

  like but why does the comic not like [TS]

  samuel l jackson to put depending on on [TS]

  the portrayal of my understanding is [TS]

  that the nick fury and ultimate was they [TS]

  actually called Samuel Jackson up and [TS]

  said you know would you like to be in a [TS]

  comic because we've got this ultimate [TS]

  experience we wanted to look like you [TS]

  and he was like that's awesome yeah [TS]

  semi comics I believe he's actually got [TS]

  a couple of the layout pages frame that [TS]

  was yeah the Apocrypha that I had heard [TS]

  that the artist yeah it's it's not quite [TS]

  an exact you know you don't go there [TS]

  there's a vague resemblance to sam [TS]

  jackson in the early ultimate stuff and [TS]

  ultimate spider-man he's a he's a dead [TS]

  ringer I thought in the ultimate she was [TS]

  a dead ringer too and not quite as much [TS]

  i went back and looked at it I found the [TS]

  books and dug them out and looked at him [TS]

  again just like in my head I remember [TS]

  Thor looking more like Brad Pitt in [TS]

  there but no more likely a brad Pitt in [TS]

  a try [TS]

  yeah there are a lot of shots of him [TS]

  like that I i think what happened is [TS]

  that you know he looked like the idea of [TS]

  if Samuel Jackson was nick fury and then [TS]

  Samuel Jackson became actual Nick Fury [TS]

  and now so it's by a different standard [TS]

  now that we've seen him exactly actually [TS]

  being hearing as opposed to just like [TS]

  hey that's kinda like if what is samuel [TS]

  l jackson with Nick Fury well now he is [TS]

  actually is it wrong to say Samuel [TS]

  Jackson's little bit more heavy set then [TS]

  he appears as nick fury in the comics [TS]

  that maybe you know that was a long time [TS]

  ago he was 10 years younger back then [TS]

  he's got fatter facetime well he's won [TS]

  16 but he's still yeah he's still Sam [TS]

  Jackson so you know he's still just [TS]

  peaceful Nick Fury yeah so Lisa what are [TS]

  you reading [TS]

  I went and read the rebooted Ultimates [TS]

  haha that i read the first two trade [TS]

  paperbacks and what I really liked about [TS]

  them was a reed richards supervillain [TS]

  yep i also enjoy the floor appears to be [TS]

  losing his mind but and i also enjoyed [TS]

  the Tony Stark has a sentient brain [TS]

  tumor that he talks to no no no it's [TS]

  it's it's it's good that they're [TS]

  sticking with that because that was how [TS]

  they introduced ultimate iron man was [TS]

  that he was dying and he was from doing [TS]

  things as sort of part of his it's kind [TS]

  of like well whatever I got nothing to [TS]

  lose and I and then the net and then [TS]

  they were like well maybe not [TS]

  not really but i don't think that [TS]

  it'sit's I don't know if it's just a [TS]

  question of that mälaren hitch [TS]

  I'm not this time oh no this is the [TS]

  right this is the reason you ultimate [TS]

  comics right yeah this is the reboot [TS]

  that was that was published fairly [TS]

  recently after the weird and cataclysmic [TS]

  events that closed out the Ultimate [TS]

  Universe the last time up to and [TS]

  including the lost being eaten by the [TS]

  blob and other end and that Christianity [TS]

  many many people drowning inexplicably [TS]

  and bit with it you know honestly the [TS]

  end of that reminded me of like what [TS]

  happens when a bunch of eight-year-olds [TS]

  have gotten really tired of playing GI [TS]

  Joe yes has to go home I don't like what [TS]

  we need to wrap this up you know yet [TS]

  exactly [TS]

  uh-huh okay Jonathan Hickman looks like [TS]

  so yeah and it's not like the writing is [TS]

  bad it's it's a really nice tight story [TS]

  and there's enough hooks in there that [TS]

  will let maintain momentum and so on and [TS]

  so forth but i don't know if it's just [TS]

  because I've already read through one [TS]

  ultimate series that I'm like a you know [TS]

  the Shocker rebooter who the shock of [TS]

  putting these characters in slightly [TS]

  different context um there isn't the [TS]

  same that's there isn't the same [TS]

  prasanna of of surprise or intrigue it's [TS]

  just kind of again you kind of get the [TS]

  feeling that it's a bunch of people [TS]

  playing with the little characters and [TS]

  oh wouldn't it be funny if if or loses [TS]

  his mind after Valhalla is sucked it is [TS]

  is sucked into Reed Richards magic space [TS]

  city [TS]

  the original Ultimates felt like [TS]

  something really different that we [TS]

  haven't seen before right but it was [TS]

  like busy this isn't the Avengers it's [TS]

  the ultimate sand it's a very different [TS]

  conception and now it sort of feels like [TS]

  it's the Avengers this the originals had [TS]

  this almost as realpolitik going on with [TS]

  yes where are these people weren't [TS]

  exactly superheroes they were people who [TS]

  happen to be on the right side of [TS]

  history of the right side of politics at [TS]

  the time being something almost kind of [TS]

  sinister about it's a government kind of [TS]

  setup and and and we're gonna hate it [TS]

  it's very much if you go back and read [TS]

  those malhar hitch ultimate series is [TS]

  it's a it feels very much more in [TS]

  Afghanistan HW Bush president at the [TS]

  time it's it's it's of its time the same [TS]

  way where if you go back and read their [TS]

  their take on the authority that's it's [TS]

  pretty much you could read those [TS]

  back-to-back basic yeah you're right [TS]

  actually I'm follow that you're exactly [TS]

  right and and this time out it's got [TS]

  more money to feeling to it and it feels [TS]

  a little franchise ready if that makes [TS]

  sense like as they like this they do it [TS]

  you could tell they were already kind of [TS]

  mentally cast in the movie or or how [TS]

  they could change this changes into [TS]

  movie treatment so I'm not sorry I read [TS]

  the books but i'm not sure i'm going to [TS]

  be continued with consideration and I [TS]

  got a bunch of nonfiction graphic novels [TS]

  for Christmas so i'm probably gonna be [TS]

  diving into those next to read the [TS]

  record time if you haven't yet i should [TS]

  it's on my wrist it's on my wishes i [TS]

  love i love that book so much we're [TS]

  gonna we're gonna do that was broadcast [TS]

  you need to i'm really good for about 14 [TS]

  kind of afraid of it because i really [TS]

  love the novel so much I mean that was [TS]

  one of the formative most of my [TS]

  childhood I'm kind of afraid to see what [TS]

  they're going to do with it because if [TS]

  they get it wrong i'm just gonna cut [TS]

  somebody I think it's a I think it's [TS]

  incredibly faithful so but you know it [TS]

  she does have to envision what those [TS]

  things look like but I think she did a [TS]

  really good job to you should you should [TS]

  check that out because i wanna i want to [TS]

  do a episode about the book and the [TS]

  graphic novel in a few min max three [TS]

  months what I've started reading is AD [TS]

  New Orleans after the delusion deluge by [TS]

  Josh new field and it's a work of it [TS]

  sits up a nonfiction graphic novel about [TS]

  the Diaspora out of new orleans at [TS]

  katrina and it's really quite good he [TS]

  does a lot of really nice work with [TS]

  color to help you follow through [TS]

  people's narrative so you can see the [TS]

  common threads through people's [TS]

  experiences so you can keep track what's [TS]

  happening to people is there either [TS]

  trapped in the Superdome or their [TS]

  flooded out their own building or [TS]

  they're hitting hitting the backgrounds [TS]

  trying desperately to get the area it's [TS]

  not a light read so it's not something i [TS]

  recommend you read after a bad day at [TS]

  work along there what have you but it's [TS]

  it's definitely something i'm enjoying [TS]

  reading into small chunks and putting it [TS]

  all together we're almost at a time but [TS]

  I have to ask Jason Brackman because he [TS]

  blew me away last time with Hawkeye what [TS]

  Jason what are you reading [TS]

  so it's interesting that lisa is reading [TS]

  The Ultimates by hickman which I [TS]

  actually found pretty disappointing [TS]

  because my ticket book i'm reading now [TS]

  that i'm really liking is that the new [TS]

  series of adventures by hickman are and [TS]

  if you read his fantastic four run which [TS]

  was spent which was fantastic it it was [TS]

  cosmic an epic and he's really great at [TS]

  those cosmic kind of stories and I [TS]

  thought oh how is he gonna do with that [TS]

  thought oh how is he gonna do with that [TS]

  jurors that's not to be they're not very [TS]

  cosmic but he's got a cosmic story going [TS]

  on adventures now that's blowing me away [TS]

  with how great it is there an issue 6 or [TS]

  7 or I think seven just came out today [TS]

  and they're playing to my 80s nostalgia [TS]

  and bringing back the new universe which [TS]

  was the big Marvel 25th anniversary [TS]

  thing in 1987 that they did but doing it [TS]

  really really interesting way huh so [TS]

  it's it's the the new series essentially [TS]

  starts out with Tony Stark and Steve [TS]

  Rogers having a conversation about the [TS]

  world is is bigger and more complicated [TS]

  and the threats are bigger and so the [TS]

  Avengers have to get bigger and so now [TS]

  they invite everybody on to the Avenger [TS]

  so it's got like cannonball and sunspot [TS]

  from the new mr. on the Avengers and all [TS]

  these characters are never seen before [TS]

  or on the Avengers and they're fighting [TS]

  this big epic cosmic stuff but just like [TS]

  he did in fantastic four he's having a [TS]

  lot of these kind of one-off stories [TS]

  which substantially are kind of like [TS]

  character origins to make you more [TS]

  familiar with some of these characters [TS]

  like captain universe and the protector [TS]

  that you may not be familiar with you [TS]

  some captain universe by the way you [TS]

  remember comic introduce captain [TS]

  universe was listen micro not it with [TS]

  michael's number eight in fact so [TS]

  they're hot boom boom [TS]

  so there's a new captain universe in [TS]

  this and she's awesome and crazy but the [TS]

  they keep doing these kind of one [TS]

  character vignettes in has an issue but [TS]

  you know that like what's being talked [TS]

  about in there will be like super [TS]

  important seven or eight issues from now [TS]

  because it's kind of the way hickman [TS]

  works so this is this plotter called [TS]

  Avengers world because that's the name [TS]

  of the trade that's coming out next [TS]

  month [TS]

  yes yes it's just the i'm a big fan of [TS]

  the universe from the mid-eighties for [TS]

  what they try to do and then a couple [TS]

  years ago Warren Ellis tried to do a [TS]

  reboot reboot of that called new [TS]

  universal and so hickman is picking up [TS]

  on ideas from New [TS]

  universal and and the original series [TS]

  and it feels very much like the aspects [TS]

  of the authority that I liked and we've [TS]

  talked about this already on the podcast [TS]

  before our planetary it has a lot of [TS]

  like there's a bigger systems thing [TS]

  happening in the universe and it [TS]

  what's going on now in the Avengers is [TS]

  the system is broken into me it's kind [TS]

  of very intriguing in cosmic and [TS]

  interesting and i'm eating it up [TS]

  alright cool i'll check it out it's not [TS]

  gonna be good to talk about i'll check [TS]

  new but actually if you like Hawkeye you [TS]

  may want to check out matt fraction in [TS]

  and Ed Brubaker work together on Iron [TS]

  Fist yeah and it got very much in like [TS]

  Hawkeye pushes it further into he's just [TS]

  a slept kind of story but a lot of the [TS]

  nice things about Hawkeye are in those [TS]

  iron man series and only the first two [TS]

  trades alright have that and then they [TS]

  go in a different direction and it it it [TS]

  reads much more like a nineteen [TS]

  seventies confu story so it has a [TS]

  different vibe but there's a lot of [TS]

  similarities to the Hawkeye beyond that [TS]

  the running gag in and Hawkeye is that [TS]

  he keeps being mistaken for iron fist [TS]

  haha where you that iron fist kind no [TS]

  I'm not [TS]

  uh-huh right but i think the artist is [TS]

  the same yeah i think it's Sam yeah Sam [TS]

  yeah it has a nice by but I i love the [TS]

  Iron Fist series and i love the Hawkeye [TS]

  series even more and it is where to say [TS]

  i love Hawkeye not okay with that [TS]

  yeah it's a great comic great comic all [TS]

  right I think we've reached the end of [TS]

  our are a lot of time for this comic [TS]

  book club will be back with another [TS]

  comic book club soon although we're [TS]

  going to figure out what we're going to [TS]

  talk about so we'll do that I that [TS]

  that's a good question we had she-hulk [TS]

  kind of sitting on the back burner for a [TS]

  few months i'm glad we finally got her [TS]

  out at the law firm and into the podcast [TS]

  so until our next episode of the [TS]

  uncomfortable i would like to thank my [TS]

  comic book club members Lisa Schmeisser [TS]

  thanks for being here [TS]

  it was a pleasure as always and jason [TS]

  reitman thank you thank you [TS]

  alright well thanks to everybody out [TS]

  there for listening to the uncomfortable [TS]

  again and another comic book club until [TS]

  next time this is jason snow [TS]

  bye-bye [TS]