The Accidental Tech Podcast

260: The Todoyist Problem


  late for to-do item because you want to

  do it at a particular time depending on

  how you view things how many you just

  use one calendar KC way to use I use a

  shared Google Calendar that is off of my

  gmail account that Aaron and I share and

  that is the canonical family calendar

  that being said anything that happens

  during the workday or anything that for

  some reason I don't want Aaron to see

  like maybe I've booked a time to go buy

  her a gift or something like that like

  that's the only thing I can think of

  that I wouldn't want her to see or maybe

  something that's irrelevant to her that

  goes on my work calendar just because

  he's going to the Tesla dealership

  exactly right how did you know but but

  yes so basically the Google Calendar

  that's associated with my gmail account

  well strictly speaking my Google Apps

  for my domain account that is a shared

  calendar that that she has on her phone

  that she has on her computer that's

  everywhere that is the canonical list

  family calendar and then anything that

  is basically basically anything that

  happens during the workday or for some

  reason I don't want her to be burdened

  with that is on my work calendar what is

  your work calendar its Google Apps but

  it's all Google yeah it's Google

  everywhere so I also have a separate

  work calendar it's not Google because my

  work doesn't use Google at work out look

  whatever exchange and I don't I think

  that's split I like that split I like

  not having my work calendar messed with

  my family code most ago than my work

  calendar is totally bonkers like is just

  massively booked and oversubscribed and

  I would never want that noise in my life

  right and then the life calendar is less

  and there's a split the market but it's

  pretty much the same split that I use

  like on the family calendar it's you

  know podcast recording I would put

  plumber on the calendar it would be an

  all-day item and then reminders are if

  I'm doing something off the normal

  schedule I do put what I do put what

  time I have to leave work on my work

  calendar I do put what time I have to

  leave home on my home calendar for days

  where that is different than normal

  right so if I have to write if I have a

  very early meeting and I want to remind

  myself don't

  yet today you have a early meeting you

  actually have to be working or earlier

  than you normally are I put that on my

  home calendar early in the morning and

  if I have to leave work early to like a

  parent-teacher conference I put that in

  my work calendar which is weird like I

  was thinking about for the to-do apps as

  well and when I use reminders I'm a lot

  of time I'm choosing a system based on

  where I think I'll be when I'll need

  this information and what I think I'll

  be doing if I think my phone will be

  with me reminders is a candidate because

  that's where I'm gonna see it but if I

  think I won't have my phone if I put in

  reminders not gonna do me any good

  you know if I'm if I'm someplace where I

  don't have that and that's the homework

  calendar split is I don't want to look

  at my work calendar at home and I do

  look at my home calendar at work which

  you requires some combining of stuff but

  for the to do stuff like marker said

  with the multiple applications that are

  you know task specific I just got done

  asking for the ability to say like Oh

  reminding you whatever and have you use

  a single app the next logical step and

  that is to have it understand you well

  enough to know when you ask to add

  something to your shopping list that it

  means this Apple when you when you say

  something about the trash it means that

  app right these are all within the realm

  of reason because these are a fairly

  narrow problem demands and also within

  the realm of you know Apple's favorite

  thing machine learning where if you keep

  talking about the trash it should

  eventually like learn or ask you when

  your actual trash day is and you should

  be able to say increasingly offhand and

  casual things which result in the

  correct being reminded at the correct

  time because it has some context in

  history about what you've done in the

  past we're not asking for how bind

  thousand here I think all this is within

  the grass but it's the stuff that

  probably Google probably already knows

  about us from like monitoring all our

  activities through its various

  applications and stuff I

  I would love for those systems to get

  just a little tiny bit smarter so Marco

  how long until you write your own is

  really what we all want to know that is

  not an unreasonable question it would be

  totally my style to get upset with all

  the options and just write my own but

  honestly I don't think that's going to

  happen I you know there's first of all

  there's limited time in the day and it's

  a little bit of a crowded market perhaps

  honestly it well it isn't because

  there's only so many they're actually


  but the

  problem is that for this is kind of a

  similar problem that that that you know

  John Gruber and Brent Simmons and Dave

  whiskas had with Vesper yeah is that to

  enter this market in a competitive way

  that's that's useful to a lot of people

  you really need to be on like all of the

  Apple platforms at once at launch and

  that's really hard for any India to do

  these days like I'm not gonna use as do

  a to-do app that is not on my Mac and my

  iPhone and my iPad and a lot of people

  are also gonna need a watch app that's

  getting really like the barrier is just

  so high that it is certainly possible

  for people to do it and there's gonna be

  certainly some people who are totally

  fine to have it say only on their phone

  That's not me and that's not it's not

  many people unfortunately and so in

  order to make a good to do a that's

  actually competitive you really need to

  launch on all those platforms at once

  and that's just really a massive amount

  of work that I don't think I'm ever

  gonna have

  not only the bandwidth to do but also

  like I don't have the passion for this

  market at all I'm happy to use these

  apps and talk about them once on a

  podcast for 30 minutes but I really

  don't think I'm going to fall in love

  with to do app systems and suddenly want

  to make my own enough to actually be

  willing to devote the massive amount of

  time it would take to make apps for all

  these platforms to make it actually


  so another this actually reduces the

  amount of work but it does is a novel

  approach to reducing the apparent

  footprint on all the different platforms

  is the approach that I think I think

  Google is taking this approach I'm sure

  other apps have done it as well where

  you decide that the problem you're

  solving well you know whatever ever is

  to do laptops or whatever you're going

  to implement that entirely server-side

  and with some smart somewhere right and

  that the interface to those smarts will

  be something that is not directly

  connected with a task so in the Google

  in Google's case like I forget what is

  it was it a low or something like they

  basically had a chat app it's bubbles of

  text it's you versus the thing you're

  communicating with and that chat app can

  be used to chat with any person or thing

  there's nothing in the chat app that is

  specific to the problem so you if you

  have the chat app on all the different

  platforms that

  is on your watch it's on your phone it's

  on your Mac or whatever you just write

  that chat app once and then what you're

  conversing with is a series of

  intelligent agents that know how to do

  certain kinds of things and so then you

  implement your to-do app entirely

  server-side and then when you want to do

  your next app which is like you know a

  shopping list it's the same sort of

  interface with the chat type thing or

  speaking or whatever like getting

  getting closer to the idea of not

  looking at pictures and screens and

  poking in them but they're having sort

  of an assistant in helps you with things

  obviously writing the assistant is much

  harder even harder than writing an

  application for all the different

  platforms but that is it's an

  interesting approach to these kinds of

  problems where you're never gonna make

  one user interface or one way of

  organizing that works best but if you

  can make one kind of reasonably fake

  intelligent agent that learns based on

  your habits in some reasonable way it

  could be you know it could be a better

  actually a better experience to be able

  to go back and forth the thing with over

  text invoice and eventually it's sort of

  like having your own very primitive

  personal assistant who in the beginning

  doesn't really know how you like things

  done but eventually learns and that

  could be better than any really nice

  interface that you make on all the

  different platforms and potentially

  easier to maintain because once you've

  mastered that interface whether it's

  faceless talking or just like a chat

  type interface you don't need to revisit

  that that much another angle I

  considered when I when I was thinking

  like should I make my own one of these

  or not is that the reminders like we've

  seen a lot of apps over the last couple

  years that are basically like better

  interfaces to the built-in Apple

  calendar fantastical is number one and

  it's been and I use phantastic owl for

  all of my event entry on the Mac but I

  still use calendar for the for the

  browsing of it but I use for the Xcode

  for entry it's wonderful iCal or rather

  calendar does have a somewhat

  fantastical like natural language entry

  field in recent versions of OS 10 sorry

  if Mac OS but it's not nearly as good so

  I don't use it but the same API exists


  reminders database so one way someone

  could tackle this market I don't know if

  anybody has really in a serious way but

  you could just make a nicer interface to

  the built-in reminders database I don't

  know what the limitations that would be

  I'm sure it's not gonna be nearly as

  full-featured as if you make your own

  database and run your own service but

  that is one way you could do this where

  like if you first just tackle like just

  the Mac first or just iOS first with our

  really nice interface to the reminders

  database maybe that's the way you could

  do it more incrementally but again this

  is not this is not a market that I feel

  passionate enough about to spend my time

  on and unfortunately if you wanted to be

  differentiated in this market which I

  still think is crowded yes there are the

  good ones but there is such a long tail

  of mediocre to bad ones that someone

  somewhere loves right I'm sure because

  the tail is so long that someone has

  already done this but when you were

  talking about and when other people talk

  about these a million to do apps and how

  they do one thing you like but not some

  other thing or whatever I'm always

  reminded of the calculator Construction

  Set sorry about Steve Jobs worth the

  calculator app wasn't quite to his

  liking and the developer was tired of

  hearing him say you know this should be

  like that it just basically made away

  here's Steve you can arrange the buttons

  and size them and like you build the

  calculator that you want so instead of a

  to-do app maker you say well this person

  says they want this but that person said

  they always want that and they want this

  too many demands here you make the to-do

  app you want so if you can make it to do

  app construction kit there was an app

  that gave you the tools to build the app

  that you wanted I mean that maybe that's

  what I'm the focus is and that's what

  marco was recoiling from because it was

  just too darn complicated but I think

  army focus does have at least some point

  of view about what you're doing but if

  you really made a construction kit for

  to do apps where and again I started

  thinking of agents like I don't want to

  get him to a program really quick and

  that just narrows your market to nothing

  cuz no one wants to even do some kind of

  simple programming but if I could

  converse with the application and

  negotiate how things are gonna work you

  know do you want me to remind you once

  you do you always want you me to keep

  reminding you like then the nagging

  thing the case he was talking about you

  know most of the time what do you want

  okay do you want to see all the things

  that are coming up and today or dress

  the things that are due in the next time

  window or like just

  sort of go through the process of

  building the app it's view again that

  would be astronomically hard to make but

  I think it would be I'm assuming it

  would be relatively novel in the market

  because having heard many many dozens of

  hours if people saw you about to do

  absent podcast I have yet to hear

  someone say I tried this construction

  kid and it was terrible so if it doesn't

  guess maybe it's so far in the long tail

  and no one's even seen it we respond to

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  roar Locker what a great name roar

  that's amazing what what parent decides

  to name their child roar and why didn't

  I think of that

  anyway he or she writes kc do you miss

  this C sharp and dotnet development

  stack I'm taking my computer engineer

  Bachelor degree and I must say that I

  enjoy very much I also like c-sharp much

  better than Swift although I've spent

  more time coding in Swift maybe I'm just

  feeling in Xcode versus Visual Studio

  effects so I miss c-sharp and that's

  about it

  ed dotnet is fine whatever

  like it's good I guess but to me it's

  just a vehicle to give me C sharp

  I do miss C sharp I love Swift I really

  honestly do love Swift

  I like Swift quite a lot but C sharp

  does I've probably said this before on

  the show C sharp does a stunningly good

  job of being all things to all people if

  you want to write sort of kind of

  functional programming and yes I'm aware

  that there's f sharp but like if you

  want to get halfway to functional

  programming you can do that with C sharp

  if you want to write kind of basic

  boring procedural stuff you can do that

  with C sharp if you want to write super

  object-oriented stuff you can do that

  with C sharp and I know that the C sharp

  is not the only language that all this

  applies to I'm waiting for John to jump

  in and talk about pearl but C sharp does

  a really good job of being just about

  anything to anyone and I do miss xishi

  sharp a lot I am I don't really mind X

  code which means one of a couple things

  it means either I'm still a noob which

  is possible it means either I just

  haven't been burned by it which is semi

  true or it means I'm an idiot which is

  possible as well but in the same way

  that everyone else seems to complain and

  moan about X code like I don't really

  mind it and maybe it's because Visual

  Studio well great in many ways is

  aesthetically an assault on my eyes and

  Xcode for all of its faults Xcode does

  one thing very well and that's be very

  very pretty Marco you said something

  earlier about you know hey I'm a Mac

  user and I'm an apple person so I like

  things to be pretty or well designed I

  forget how you phrased it earlier but

  yeah it's it's that right like Xcode is

  painful in some ways but a it is and

  forever will be better than eclipse

  don't email me and B it is it is not

  that bad in my personal opinion now if

  you want to talk about

  Swift like code completion what is its

  source kit is that what I'm thinking of

  like source kit is at an utter disaster

  but Xcode itself it's not bad and I like

  it and do I miss Visual Studio no not


  and holy hell do I not miss anything

  related to Windows nothing about Windows

  is something I miss or long for I am so

  unbelievably thankful to be off Windows

  I cannot even verbalize it I am so

  thankful to be away from that so I miss

  C sharp net whatever it's something that

  gives me C sharp Visual Studio me

  windows hell no I don't miss it

  right David steer asks the next time you

  discuss single versus multi thread

  processing would it be possible to give

  it a couple of real-world examples of

  tasks or applications that perform

  better in each process I love the show

  but a mother technical and sometimes I

  struggled to and sometimes struggled to

  give context to your discussions trying

  to figure out exactly what is being

  asked here because one way to read it is

  like what types of things benefit from

  multiple threads and that's getting into

  the Marco zone of like look if you're

  doing this type of task and you got a

  10-car Mac Pro you'll see a big benefit

  a Mac Pro but if you're doing this kind

  of task you're not going to see a

  benefit because it's not you know it

  doesn't use multiple cores and the and

  which tests those are really depends on

  a lot of factors including just like

  what the application is like I think

  Final Cut Pro 10 wasn't particularly

  strong at multi-threading until recently

  so but that doesn't mean video

  processing does or doesn't benefit


  the other way to think about this

  question is they're asking like what

  makes something a problem to which you

  can apply some parallelism beyond like

  you know any kind of parallelism or like

  degrees of parallelism I think that's I

  think that's probably closer to the

  answer so I'm going to try to give a

  non-technical explanation it's best I

  can do this so doing stuff in parallel

  requires a problem where you can break

  it up into pieces and that the pieces

  don't have dependencies between them or


  have a lot of dependencies between the

  obvious example that comes up a lot is

  almost anything having to do with

  graphics processing where you've got a

  lot of dots on your screen and for the

  most part dots may depend on their

  neighboring dots but they don't depend

  on the dots way over at the other side

  so if you're taking an entire image and

  blurring it you can break that image up

  into a bunch of smaller pieces dole out

  those pieces to a bunch of things that

  are gonna work on them all at the same

  time and then put the pieces back

  together at the end lots of graphics

  cards do exactly that for you know

  tiling processing but in general just

  the giant array of pixels

  they are worked on as much as possible

  in parallel by your graphics card

  there's probably a Wikipedia page on

  this expression but there is a term of

  art in the computer science world called

  embarrassingly parallel problems where

  it is so easy to parallel eyes because

  you can break it up and do as many

  chunks is you want and there are a lot

  of chunks and so it's like look if you

  gave me a million processors this

  problem is embarrassingly parallel I

  could break it up into a million pieces

  and do them all at once and it would be

  a million times faster than doing them

  one at a time right you know assuming

  the thing is processes at the same time

  so whether something performs in

  parallelize is based on sort of the

  nature of the problem there are problems

  that you can't do in parallel because

  the to do step one to do step two you

  need the answer from step one to do step

  three you need the answer for step two

  so you can't break you can't do steps

  one two and three all at the same time

  and so that's the high level computer

  size the explanation you can apply your

  basic reasoning about things to try to

  discover whether a particular problem

  you're having is parallelizable in any

  way is it embarrassingly parallel


  or is it generally serial by nature but

  that's when we get into the complexity

  is like well this problem is

  parallelizable say mp3 encoding but it

  turns out the mp3 encoder I have doesn't

  do anything in parallel it just does it

  from the beginning to the end and that's

  where marco said well I can it's not

  embarrassingly parallel but I can break

  this audio track up into five pieces and

  encode all five at the same time

  and then put the five pieces back

  together and now I've done it five times

  faster right you can't break it up into

  a billion pieces because at a certain

  point you're doing I don't know what the

  size is Marco would know if like a

  single frame or whatever that 1,200


  yeah like there there is some you know

  some unit size that beyond which you

  don't get any benefit but that's an

  example where the problem itself is

  parallelizable but the but you can say

  if I buy a faster computer my mp3

  encoding will be faster not if you're

  using an unparalleled mp3 encoder it

  won't so it gets a little bit

  complicated okay see you want to try a

  different angle yeah so what I've been

  working on lately is this thing where I

  have a folder full of photographs right

  or there may be live photos so it's a

  photograph in and a movie and I want to

  file them away in a particular way and

  what I've run into is some of this is

  parallelizable and some of the some of

  it is not so if you think about it

  anytime that I have a any photo that

  doesn't share a date so if for example

  on on today which is the 7th of February

  I take only one photograph with my

  iPhone I can without worrying about a

  conflict I can just copy that to where I

  want it to go right because without

  worrying about a conflict with any other

  photos taken from my iPhone I can copy

  it to where I want it to go but if I

  take 15 or if I took 15 photos yesterday

  it's possible that maybe some of those

  were taken at the same hour minute and

  second maybe I did a burst or something

  like that and so some of this is

  paralyzed of parallelizable in some of

  it is not I've met when I was relisting

  last week's episode I meant to talk to

  you more about how you're gonna resolve

  your race condition and how you said my

  thing is bug-free except for the massive

  reason that's not bug free I mean you

  could you could parallelize by day what

  I've what I was trying to explain and I

  think I've done a poor job of it and

  that's why I want it to be cut is that

  if if in the batch of photos that I have

  I have no conflicts in terms of date so

  the hour minute and second is unique all

  of the photos or movies or

  all the media that has a unique hour

  minute and second can be processed in

  parallel so that is to say it may have a

  conflict in the tour in the destination

  but it doesn't have a tart or it doesn't

  have a conflict amongst its peers that

  I'm doing that that are being imported

  that does that make any sense at all so

  it does yeah but I'm honestly I'm kind

  of wondering like does this problem

  benefit from parallelization like it

  seems like it's pretty fast to just dump

  the files serially so here's the thing

  the problem with the the reason I think

  it may benefit from parallelization is

  that there's two different things at

  play number one let's say that I took a

  photo at exactly noon today just for the

  sake of discussion I took a photo at

  exactly noon today and it turns out that

  the destination so my photo repository

  that has every photograph I've ever

  taken also already has by some mechanism

  don't worry about why but let's just say

  it already has a photo that was taken at

  exactly noon today at 12 o'clock at 0

  minutes and 0 seconds one of the things

  that my app is going to do is it is it's

  going to say hey let me take an md5 of

  the source that I'm trying to import and

  of the thing that's already at the

  target and if the md5 is the same then I

  need to take like evasive action so to

  speak so I need to increment the the

  fire I need to add a suffix to the

  imported file name so instead of being

  2018 - o - - o 7 space 12 - oo - oo the

  imported file will be all of that with

  an A at the end the letter A at the end

  because they're two different files well

  if you're doing that across a whole

  bunch of files at once which presumably

  I am that may be well-served to be

  parallelized because on an average

  modern processor you have at least two

  if not four or six or eight or ten or

  twelve or 18 cores which are all working

  simultaneously to solve problems and so

  it makes sense to split this same kind

  of operation across all or at least some

  of these cores

  where it doesn't make sense to split it

  is if I have multiple pictures that were

  taken at 12 o'clock in 0 seconds because

  then I can get into this race condition

  that I found earlier which is to say the

  the the first photo that I'm processing

  looks at the target and says oh there's

  nothing there and starts the copy the

  second photo that I'm processing looks

  at the target and says oh there's

  nothing there and tries to start the

  copy but then they collide with each

  other and that's the problem that I was

  running into before and that's in I'm

  solving it now by parallelizing anything

  that doesn't have an internal conflict

  because even if it has a conflict at the

  target that's fine it doesn't matter I

  can still parallelize it but if it has

  an internal conflict then then then I

  have a problem and so anything that

  doesn't have an internal conflict can be

  parallelized anything that has an

  internal conflict will be serialized so

  what if you in parallel read the input

  files get there get whatever date and

  timestamp buckets they belong to and

  stuff all that into an array then in

  then serially just have a thing run

  through that array look for the

  conflicts resolve them and do all the

  renaming serially because like that's

  gonna be like that's gonna be so fast

  anyway like you're really just relying

  on the file system speed at that point

  yes but no but the thing that I haven't

  mentioned and I have made I I alluded to

  this earlier than never actually put a

  period on the sentence the thing that I

  haven't mentioned is that my target for

  all of these image and also movie files

  my target is actually my Synology so

  it's not the local file system I have to

  crawl across the network to do all of

  these check sums and to figure out if

  these files are identical or not and

  some of these video setup that I'm

  taking I mean like like five or ten

  minutes of 4k video off the iPhone is

  multiple gigabytes so if it a rename

  should be quick right isn't that what a

  well you could import it somewhere first

  then do a rename later it really fast

  yes but what again what I'm what my

  process is that I'm saying hey I found a

  identically named file at the

  destination which in my case happens to

  be a Synology so I need two MD

  five both the local file that is on my

  local file system are at worst on an SD

  card attached to my physical computer

  but I also need to do an md5 on the

  remote file that's on the Synology and

  that can take forever and that's why I

  want to paralyze it so anything that has

  a conflict

  I want to parallel eyes anything that

  I'm sorry anything that doesn't have a

  conflict internally anything that that I

  know will not collide with any of the

  other files I'm importing that can be

  parallelized it's the the what I worry

  about is if I have 15 files on my SD

  card that we're all taken at twelve

  o'clock in 0 seconds that's what I need

  to do it serially because otherwise I

  run into a situation where I say oh just

  the target that makes sense but so but

  like what when when something is slow in

  this case it's probably being limited by

  like the transfer bandwidth of the SD

  card or the network protocol for really

  whatever like I dis paralyzing those

  actually get you anything or is it just

  clog it up and make everything run you

  know like where you can run ten things

  at 1/10 the speed each he's already

  spent more time writing this program

  that he's gonna point out that your race

  condition is like a look canonical race

  condition which is if something's okay

  and then go do the thing and while

  you're going to do the thing something

  that you check was okay is right so my

  suggestion for a strategy for dealing

  with this that doesn't involve

  serializing any portion of it is to use

  what other past technologies have used

  including unix and in this specific case

  Ethernet you want carrier sense multiple

  access with collision detection it's

  kind of getting it what a marker always

  saying don't do everything in parallel

  you just need some kind of remotely

  atomic operation and even with an ass if

  you can get the stuff on to the nasa and

  do a rename local to the nasa hopefully

  you can get atomic renames and then you

  just try to do your rename and if your

  name fails because the file exists you

  increment it and then you try to do the

  rename again and you do binding

  exponential back-off and you just let

  all the parallel things fight it out and

  because there is no inherent order to

  things that are literally you don't have

  any increased resolution if you did

  you'd put it in the file name right

  there's no inherent order to the new and

  pictures right they're all just new in

  pictures mmm so let me Duke it out you


  no no locks no shared state no wig no

  serialization and you'd be surprised at

  how nicely things terminate because this

  is the network's it tries and if the

  line is busy it weights a little bit and

  tries again if it's still busy awaits a

  little bit longer and tries again and

  everything works yeah but there is a bit

  of an inherent order right because the

  source file name is like IMG underscore

  1 1 1 1 IMG underscore 1 are you tell me

  about that so why aren't you using that

  as your tiebreaker

  yeah wait you have sequential name from

  the in the source that doesn't that

  totally solve your problem well that's

  why I'm running the collision that the

  potential collision stuff serially

  that's exactly why I'm running it

  serially so I'm guaranteed you've

  already got you you've already got a

  unique unique a fire that you'll never

  have a collision because you've got the

  date you're doing the import and you've

  got a sequence number

  yeah what's what's the problem he

  doesn't want to put two dates in the

  final menses problem it's too much too

  much of an aesthetic is this happening

  in these file names there no you're

  right because I want it to be you know

  2018 most 2018 Oh 207 people are using a

  and B do you go to a a and then a B and

  then a see the you think oh ay ay ay ay

  I've never run into a situation when

  that's a problem but I understand your

  point and there's another another bug

  free program that you'll never be more

  than 26 conflicts you sir you are why I

  will never open source yes when the

  iPhone 15 shoots shoots like you know 30

  frame per second burst photos you're

  gonna have a problem I think the problem

  is that you're not an old and crusty

  enough programmer is always fine and I'm

  like do we need to use unsigned 256 bit

  something that briefly touched on like

  source code to like one of those Bitcoin

  or some other cryptocurrency and they

  were literally using like that I'd never

  seen it in like seed like the the you

  256 type for like for one of their

  values because they're like 64 bits is

  not enough we need 200 expensive

  unsigned precision for this value like

  AB you are really future proofing this

  thing that will be gone in two years not

  not Bitcoin just some other random I I


  so moving on so where do we leave this

  cuz John you did exactly what you were

  supposed to do which is give it over to

  me and then I completely ruined it

  I tried but I think that we have that

  question has been addressed to the best

  that we can do in a ski teepee style

  segment really you should you'll be able

  to talk about it with Mike when you do

  like your computer science e-learning

  stuff if that even that even keeps on

  and wait a second since when did you

  ever listen to analog I know you do from

  time to time but I am vaguely aware of

  many podcasts like you're my dad the

  best way to characterize my current

  podcast listening which is very spotty

  and diffuse no I was doing that I know I

  know all right

  so Thomas no switz saw or something like

  that writes have any of you ever tried

  meditation please discuss no I have

  never tried meditation John I'm pretty

  sure no I might have done something no

  you have lots of things qualify as

  meditation and I'm sure as a teenager I

  probably did one of those things that

  was called sleeping thing that was

  called zoning out no no anyway I'm gonna

  say no that no is the quick answer I too

  have not tried anything III have a vague

  concept of the kinds of things you're

  supposed to do I I kind of want to try

  it someday but it's never been more than

  like a passing notion like that for me I

  was hoping one of us had done that's why

  I put this question in there's like

  surely one of us has tried meditation

  but nope we've just heard podcast about

  it you know what I really want to do I

  really want to get a hypnotized sometime

  because I think that's bogus I think

  it's a bunch of malarkey and I don't

  think it's real but I want to start

  smoking so then you can try to get

  hypnotized to stop oh my god

  now we're gonna hear from so many people

  about everything that just happen

  alright so thanks for sponsors this week

  Kaspar betterment and hellofresh and we

  will see you next week

  we're gonna hear from listen we just

  haven't tried meditation but we just

  helped the truth I don't really say

  anything bad about meditation Casey said

  bad things about hypnotism yeah

  we're gonna hear from the meditation

  people the smoking people the hypnotists

  people who have been hypnotized

  allegedly more like we're gonna hear

  from all of those people now I think you

  might hear from the hypnotize people but

  you won't hear were smokers who's gonna

  object to the joke about smoking

  hypnotism you'd be surprised

  hypnotists I don't know it helps some

  people quit smoking if that's the goal

  who cares

  does it work did it help you quit

  smoking sure yeah I suppose it doesn't

  really matter yeah you just have to if

  you believe it works and it actually

  helps you quit smoking great like stand

  on your head whatever works don't smoke

  kids it's terrible now the show is over

  they didn't even mean to begin as it was

  accidental oh it was accidental johnny

  research Margo and Casey wouldn't let


  because it was accidentally was

  accidental you can find the show notes

  at adp yl is s so that's K sealless ma

  RC o AR m and T Marco baby update I so I

  love Michaela to death she is adorable

  and she is my precious little angel yet

  if she doesn't learned how to sleep I'm

  going to go insane she's brand new like

  this is like this takes a while usually

  I am extremely lucky to I've had one

  child let alone two I cannot believe my

  good fortune that I have had two so far

  healthy children either one of them

  could have been unhealthy or had some

  sort of physical ailment that would have

  been really unfortunately in so many

  ways I am extremely lucky but in the

  heat of the moment it's funny how you

  kind of forget that I'm so miserable so

  how long are the usual sleep stretches

  at night between two and a half and

  three and a half hours now it's not you

  which is not terrible but is not great

  and to be fair the funniest part of this

  is that Aaron hasn't really woken me up

  deliberately to help with the nighttime

  stuff in like a week so I am being this

  much of a baby and all I'm doing is

  getting woken up when I hear the cry and

  then going right back to roll over

  no this is true this is how ridiculous

  men are you're really not having a good

  showing right now oh no I know I'm fully

  aware of this a hundred percent and

  maybe I shouldn't maybe I should not all

  men myself but like okay I mean all men


  cannot feed i cannot feed Mikayla I

  don't have the equipment to feed Mikayla

  right but the fact that I'm this much of

  a baby after being woken up like John

  said by a bunch of like oh yeah oh geez

  we gotta wake up earlier to go to work

  in the morning right oh right

  every part of this is B being but I'm

  the biggest baby in the house a for me

  look I can help you with two liquids

  vodka and coffee I will let you decide

  when to apply each one to the baby these

  both go into you at different time don't

  do at the same time it's a bad idea and

  early may not appreciated you doing

  things that she can't yeah that's also

  part of it but but you know if if you

  being a little bit happier and a little

  bit more functional turns into you being

  a little more helpful unless of a baby

  she might appreciate yeah right so so

  yeah this you know obviously this is a

  hard time for anybody it is it is it

  could be so much worse like I don't

  think that Mikayla is is to the point of

  being having colic I don't know what the

  right right phrasing is but she is very

  fussy for a lot of the day but I would

  not go to go so far as to say that she

  is like you know Alex was or anything

  like that like she is she is manageable

  but horrible Alex by comparison John's

  eldest was from everything I've been

  told indescribable bad in a way you'll

  know you're reached Alex level when you

  find yourself bringing your baby to a

  chiropractor oh yeah no no no not even

  in the baby is it in constant pain is it

  filled with spice I'm going to go to a

  quack non-doctor

  anything scan my baby is it filled with

  bees like we will try anything that has

  is there a spell on my baby colic is one

  of those words it means nothing - it's

  like what

  that means you're busy cries oh yeah

  that's something like I recognize that

  I'm being the biggest baby in the world

  I I mean that you're doing something

  hard right like it's for anybody even

  even for like the weak baby men it's

  having a new infant in the house that

  you're caring for is a lot of work and

  it's hard on everybody so you know you

  don't need to belittle yourself over

  that it's hard for everybody it's not

  constructive or useful to get into like

  trying to outdo each other of like oh

  well it's hard for me well it's hard for

  me to like don't worry about that like

  that's not constructive it's hard for

  everybody it's hard for you it's hard

  for Aaron it's hard for Mikayla it's

  probably hard for Declan to like it's

  hard for everyone second sleeping like a

  baby so to speak thankfully misery feels

  like unfair it's like oh come on you

  can't wake the other one up we did all

  the work like it's everyone it's a hard

  time for everyone so the best thing you

  can do is just try to be as functional

  and useful as you can and try to add as

  little drama and problems as possible to

  the situation that is already very hard

  on everybody so whatever you need to do

  to do that do that so if that's coffee

  sometimes I'm vodka some other times

  fine keep it under control but if

  otherwise fine like you know if it just

  like cuz like that's the most helpful

  thing you can do right now for everyone

  including yourself is to try to make

  yourself useful and to try to not get

  bogged down by the hardships and drama

  of this although like wait you were

  trying to remind yourself how lucky you

  are which is a place that parents often

  go to try and I found a perhaps more

  successful method is to remind yourself

  in it you should have an easy time for

  this to remind yourself this this will

  pass like they don't stay they don't

  stay babies forever like you you can do

  it you have done it and this will pass

  and I find I personally find that much

  more comforting than trying to remind

  myself lucky

  because that's like okay another night

  off the chalkboard like the kid is

  getting older this he's he or she is not

  going to be three months old forever yes

  literally earlier tonight as we were


  I sent the following text to Aaron but

  in the same way nobody goes to college

  in diapers she will eventually learn to

  sleep that's a big one with potty

  training is the other time you remind

  yourself most kids are not thirty and

  still going in the diaper it's gonna

  happen I remember reminding Marco of

  that remember but now it's done like

  it's it's totally like it's it's kind of

  surprising like you know it seems like

  you're doing it forever and then one day

  it just kind of just you're past it it

  just happens that he's probably not

  gonna go off to college with diapers

  exactly and it seems like when you're in

  it it seems like it's never gonna end

  and you're like oh my god what is the

  problem here good effect over to the

  chiropractor yeah I know but the reality

  is like yeah it'll end and so you just

  you know get through it keep yourself

  and your family healthy and as happy as

  possible given the challenge and and do

  like I'm not saying you have to go to

  the extreme I'm going to like your your

  local neighborhood like psychic or

  Exorcist but you bring up all the issues

  with the doctor because some babies have

  reflux and there's all sorts of

  legitimate reasons that can be treated

  they can they can help and so you might

  you should exhaust those right just

  maybe don't go the step further and

  start you know being totally desperate

  you know from having a kid before you

  know that things are hard for a while

  and then they end and there's you know

  there's new challenges that arise but

  like whatever you know whatever

  challenge you're in it eventually ends

  and then you know so you get to move on

  and that's just a thing that becomes

  automatic now it's nice so like

  eventually she will sleep and it won't

  be that big of a problem and it's it

  might happen next week or it might take

  two years or more likely somewhere in

  between and it you know you know it's

  coming it's gonna be hard until it gets

  here but you did it once before you can

  do it again

  you are a human you are an adult you can

  do hard things like also you don't have

  a choice yeah this is like I am very

  happy and I'm sure underscore will be -

  to teach you how to use coffee it's

  wonderful faces so many way or at least

  it improves so much of this like there's

  a reason why coffee is so popular this

  is a thing I don't know if you heard

  about it in the world but it really does


  Tiny's Drive kids but it's nice it helps


  Syracuse let me down if his beloved

  Accord could be had with a stick with

  anything other than cloth and basically

  no other options I would have won all

  seats are great were you talking about

  people love to get really fancy

  expensive luxury cars with cloth seats

  because there's so much better than

  leather you know what's awesome static

  in the winter when you rub against them

  you get static I live in the winter

  place I don't have static and quasi

  that's fine all right no but that is a

  thing of people wanting cloth seats in

  their luxury sporty cars because they

  grip you better right and also there how

  could rip you better that makes no sense

  leather is not literally sticky but kind

  of sort of sleeve you do kind of slide

  on leather when it's cold but if you

  better in this summer they caught the

  cloth seats no it's funny because I've

  been talking to a couple other friends

  of mine this is the one that had the r32

  and previously before that the m3 the 96

  m3 and he's the one that suggested both

  the legacy in the 335 so I really should

  never trust him about any car ever

  and he's also suggested the go far by

  the way but anyway I was talking to him

  and another friend of ours about how you

  know I really want to go far but I

  really want a sunroof like I really

  really really don't like not having a


  and then oh you know you wouldn't even

  mousse it you wouldn't even know and I

  feel like that's sort of kinda the

  conversation we're having now you don't

  even know you you have no cloth seats

  and forever clothes teach a better

  burger well as attorney wouldn't miss

  cloth seats I'm just saying the stack is

  not as big a problem as he thinks it is

  especially now I would take cloth seats

  before I'd lose my son

  that's an interesting question actually

  I think I agree I think I agree like

  leather is just making you like feel

  luxurious and having a nice smell right

  but leather in terms of just what it

  feels like to sit in it is not like the

  Holy Grail is cloth seats with seat

  heaters which almost nobody makes

  because then you're like oh I have if I

  want to get seat heaters I have to get

  leather right ahead of them in my Accord

  my nobody makes that these days because

  basically once you go to seat heaters

  you also get like the leather package

  right because it seems luxurious leather

  you know whether or fake leather yeah I

  don't really I don't draw a lot like a

  line between those two I think like

  there's fake leather is so good these

  days that it doesn't really matter which

  one I have I don't even notice really

  all I know is to go back a half step you

  know my friends were saying oh you you

  don't even know you wouldn't even miss

  the sunroof in the Gulf are you you did

  before I do be fine well as it turns out

  my legacy GT that I had before the 335

  it was something to the order of $3,000

  to get basically two options and that

  was leather and a sunroof and I bought

  the legacy because my then car a 300zx

  wouldn't stay on the road sound familiar

  at all and it couldn't stay on the road

  because it was always in the shop and so

  I bought the the Legacy GT after having

  been employed as a real adult for like

  literally a month or two months or

  something like that which is to say I

  was friggin broke and $3,000 would have

  destroyed me financially like truly even

  like over the course of you know the

  four or five or probably even have a six

  year car loan I was so broke at the time

  but whatever it was like that $3,000 yes

  I understand it was only like ten or

  twenty or thirty dollars a month but if

  that would have ruined me truly it

  really would have ruined me so I didn't

  get it and I had that car for like eight

  years I had it from oh four to twenty

  twelve yeah I was eight years and every

  single day in the spring summer and fall

  where it wasn't actively precipitating I

  hated not having a sunroof I hated to

  marco's point not having leather less

  but I hated that too and so I can tell

  both of you not that you're really

  arguing with me but I can tell both of

  you and my two other

  friends with with confidence that yes I

  have lived the non sunroof life and I

  have lived the not leather life and it

  sucks and I don't want to go back but my

  leather I just I don't I don't like

  cloth and that's like such a thing to

  say it just it feels so not nice because

  there's a wide variability in cost these

  cloths disease just basically means not

  whether or not pretending to be those

  very wide variability in whether it's

  fuzzy or like stitched or you know all

  sorts of different textures and and

  patterns and all that other stuff I'm

  wondering what you missed other than the

  that it feels more luxurious because

  we've been trained to think leather is

  fancier I think it was just that I mean

  even the Saturn that I had the infamous

  Saturn where the wheel fell off even

  that head like I'm serious I swear to

  God why I'm surprised you were like the

  only person who has like this is gonna

  let their insider like do you know what

  kind of car you're getting like it's a

  lot of people have been saying in fact

  even in the chat room just moments ago

  Tim underscore underscore was saying the

  same thing a lot of people have been

  saying why are you even considering a

  golf are why not get a GTI you can get a

  GTI with sunroof it is not that much

  slower what is wrong with you why

  wouldn't you do that and my answer has

  always been twofold one I would want the

  best of what I was getting if at all

  possible because that's kind of who have

  to come I'll blame that on Marco but

  it's kind of always been a bit of me any

  yeah come on that's like saying like oh

  I drink and I become mature like no

  you're just a jerk or when you drink

  like it's like this has always been

  inside of you it's true but I don't know

  but I would want why I would want the

  fastest one and I would want the

  quote-unquote best one and that's why I

  think I would prefer the R plus in my

  experience which admittedly admittedly I

  have not driven a front-wheel drive car

  and I don't know 15 years or something

  like that but I in the past have never

  particularly enjoyed driving front-wheel

  drive cars actually that's not true

  Aran's Mazda was front-wheel drive and

  although I didn't drive it regularly I


  did not like the feeling when I drove it

  it just felt like the front wheels were

  doing too much I didn't care for it and

  the GTI is front-wheel drive now with

  that said my understanding of the GTI is

  that it actually has like a limited slip

  differential up front which is weird and

  kind of like the Dodge SRT 4 from back

  in the day but anyway all of this is to

  ask the question do you think you guys

  would if you were if I told you you had

  to buy a Golf R or a GTI which I know

  John you're gonna blow this predicament

  out of the water someway somehow but if

  you had to choose between one of those

  two cars do you think you would enter

  Tom entertain the front-wheel-drive GTI

  that has a sunroof or do you think you

  would have to go all-in on the Golf R I

  would keep saying like oh there are is

  the best quote-unquote best but it's

  clear that you really want a sunroof so

  it's not the best for you yeah like the

  amount of time I would imagine you would

  enjoy a sunroof was greater than the

  amount of time you would enjoy it being

  rear-wheel drive or whatever all-wheel

  drive but yes I'm with you in principle

  dad why do you gotta use your logic on

  me because you just you're just cruising

  down the road at 1530 miles an hour

  you're enjoying the sunroof on a sunny

  day and you're only enjoying the

  slightly different driving dynamics when

  you're driving hard which is weightless

  you haven't been in the car with me in a

  long time have you but anyway I

  understand your point you should drive

  more safely look you're talking to

  people who have Volkswagen things and

  they're gonna want to sell you while

  storing things does everybody always

  wants to convince other people to buy

  what they bought so keep in mind though

  that that is their perspective like you

  know I'm telling you first I told you

  you should buy a BMW because I bought

  one now yeah then I'm telling you should

  buy a Tesla because I bought like that

  John's telling you to buy an AK or

  because he bought one you know part of

  this is to value their own purchase as

  part of it is because whatever thought

  process led us to make the choices for

  ourselves it's natural to apply the same

  processes to to you the reality is

  though that when you like you're bending

  over backwards trying to get some GTI

  like vehicle to fit what you actually

  want but it sounds like they just don't

  make one that is what you actually want

  and that's a totally fine answer like

  the answer I think just is they don't

  make what you want so therefore this is

  not the right car family for you and you

  should look at other things that might

  be so in conclusion I need to buy

  Wrangler one of the two choices ut TIRR

  I picked one mark was like

  oh you should get some told it was the

  question I have a specific point of that

  question was seeing if he should value

  all-wheel drive over the sunroof I'm

  with John I think you would probably

  enjoy the sunroof more but I think

  ultimately neat none of these Volkswagen

  small you know hatchback things are

  actually what you want so you shouldn't

  really it like this is kind of a

  pointless exercise because you shouldn't

  really be considering any of them unless

  what you want completely doesn't exist

  by anybody but that's not true there's

  lots of there's lots of cars that well

  not Lots but there are some cars that

  you would enjoy more that are from other

  brands and that maybe you are not you

  know considering because you don't think

  you should like in the case of your SUV

  envy but you know where your friends

  will accept you for whoever you are but

  like you know maybe it's because you

  don't want to pay the price or you're

  mad at BMW like with the m3 or Tesla

  with the price but like these caught

  like the cars you're looking at or not

  for you because every choice you have in

  that lineup has some kind of severe

  downside that you really don't like I

  know there's a kilise it's Achilles

  heels all the way down right so

  therefore none of them are the right car

  for you and that's okay I know I know

  you should be test driving these cars

  though like you always like to talk

  about them in Hemet just go test drive

  them just like is you don't cost me

  anything test drive them in

  coincidentally I might have a little bit

  of time outside the house just by myself

  tomorrow maybe and I've been debating I

  probably won't because I'm gonna want to

  come back and save Aaron but I've been

  debating going to Volkswagen dealer and

  oh that's right that's why I wasn't

  gonna do it because I've looked at their

  inventory and it's garbage but I was

  kicking around the idea of going to the

  Volkswagen dealer and driving a GTI just

  to try it and if there's any part of

  this segment that Marco you leave in the

  show would you please leave the

  following I am aware of the kia stinger

  it looks very nice well not

  aesthetically aesthetically whatever

  exactly aesthetically it's I'm aware of

  this car you keep telling me about it's

  ugly it's not beautiful but I understand

  it ticks a lot of the the checkboxes

  that I'm interested in except everyone

  seems to be forgetting that it's to

  peddle only and if I'm going to go for a

  to pedal car I'm going to go all in

  and do something like Tesla or really

  make my life miserable and get the the

  Julia Quadrifoglio or something along

  those lines I'm not gonna get a Kia and

  get a to pedal Kia it's not happening

  you're giving up so much by going by

  dropping the clutch that you better be

  getting something amazing every day

  exactly no truly like I completely agree

  with you I could not have said it better


  and that's that's the thing and ladies

  Car and Driver the kiyose thing are tied

  with the BMW 430 I X Drive Grand Sport

  grand coupe it's a giant long name it

  was like fastback it's hard I talked

  about the Kia stinger for a second place

  in a three car race so they were both

  massively behind the winner which was

  the Audi a5 so what is the thing is how

  far BMW is fallen because I used to

  routinely win these matchups by a wide

  margin now it's way behind by not just

  you know a couple they have a point

  system not as a couple points yeah and W

  has lost their way

  yeah like any any comparison to the the

  F 30 and Beyond generation of BMW 3 and

  4 Series has to have the disclaimer that

  like yeah but these are way worse than

  made up you used to be so like yeah kia

  has reached the level of BMW in BMWs

  degraded state or I forget oh man so I

  started going to an exercise thing with

  dip and the trainer used some amazing

  euphemism to describe my physical state

  they're like a key astanga marga

  I think it was oh it was my my D

  conditioned state like a battery even

  deaconess you know yeah it's like which

  is hilarious cuz like it like that

  implies that I was at one time

  conditioned which was never the case did

  you show them your mouse and trackpad

  hands these hands mouse track that all

  day with these I've worked hard for

  these look at how precisely I can double

  click I'm a computer athlete

  click I'm a computer athlete

  but eventually the test-riding becomes

  exactly as much coding as the coding

  does that doesn't sound right

  I know it sounds weird I'm not trying to

  convert you I'm just saying like this is

  the that sounds like it's not math this

  is not the show where we can it's you

  it's not the show where he commits Casey

  to drink coffee when when Marko starts

  writing tests I'll start drinking coffee

  let's make that agreement oh there you

  go now you're gonna make him do it we

  should start with some follow-up and

  Ravis our rights in in a teepee 258

  Casey said he'd rather have Apple

  throttle the iPhone by slowing it down

  and have it shut down due to poor pirate

  battery performance however I assume

  that's being said by someone owning a

  relatively new iPhone that's true you

  should use an older model to really

  understand the issue I have an iPhone 6

  and believe me the slowdown is


  one should not be waiting 10 seconds to

  see an app come up or imagine when you

  see something you want to capture in

  photo or film but it takes ages for the

  camera to launch and you've missed your

  shot the list goes on and on this is a

  serious usability issue for people with

  older iPhones and and they suffer from

  it daily during the whole day now this

  is a completely fair point and Ravi is

  right that I haven't really experienced

  this because in well lately because I've

  always been on the latest and greatest

  phone that being said I believe was

  either my fix for my success and we did

  talk about this on the show at some

  point or another I want to say was my 6s

  would occasionally just shut itself down

  and it whether or not it was the same

  problem because it was a relatively new

  phone at the time and I think it was

  during a generation of phones where they

  did have battery problems if I'm not

  mistaken and you know what the specifics

  of why it happened don't really matter

  but the fact the matter is I had a phone

  where this sort of shutdown was

  happening and I remember vividly that

  there were at least two or three times

  that I was trying to capture something

  that Declan was doing with the foot with

  the phone's camera and it decided to

  shut itself down

  what Rabi seems to forget is that

  booting a phone even a brand new iPhone

  10 is like 15 20 30 seconds or something

  like that that is way worse than waiting

  five to ten seconds for the camera to

  come up which is also terrible don't get

  me wrong I am NOT arguing that that is


  and I can't imagine how tough it would

  be to have every app open after 10

  seconds unequivocally that is trash but

  I would still take that trash over

  having the phone completely shut down

  when I'm trying to capture a picture of

  Declan or now Michaela like no question

  I am still convinced that I would rather

  have throttling than not well the slow

  this little app launch could happen

  every single time whereas the shows not

  only happens once in a while but the

  reason I put this thing and follow up is

  not to debate whether shutdowns are

  worse than slow performance but to

  reiterate again what I think I said on a

  past show which is if your phone is

  doing stuff like really really slow like

  this kind of slow like I literally I

  mean I don't know maybe he's

  exaggerating but if it's literally like

  10 seconds to launch an app and you

  noticed a routine regular app like if

  it's doing things massively so that's

  not throttling that is something else

  that is the mysterious ailment that no

  one has been able to identify that is

  sometimes but not always cured by either

  wiping and restoring from map backup or

  wiping and starting as a new phone why

  is that cure it what does it do I have

  no idea but the throttling is not it's

  going to make it feel slower you know

  for sure but it's not going to make it

  do this tight like even if you cut the

  the clock speed in a quarter it wouldn't

  take 10 or 20 seconds to launch an app

  right it's not you know it's it that's

  too much right it would take a quarter

  of the time to launch the app or

  whatever so phones that have these

  massive slowdowns or freezes and stuff I

  don't think those are explicable by the

  throttling the throttling feels

  different the throttling feels like your

  whole phone is kind of going through

  molasses but not these huge things all

  I'm gonna say is that if you're

  encountering one of these problems don't

  merely assume that you're being

  throttled you may have something much

  much worse than throttling and what can

  you do about it the only thing I've

  heard of some you know like I said wipe

  wipe and restore from backup or wipe and

  star as a new phone and that may or may

  not fix it which is terrible advice I

  don't have anything better I just want

  people to be aware that every problem is

  not throttling people people often

  complain about how I bother Apple about

  their software quality and you know well

  it doesn't matter they're very

  successful you know they're moving fast

  they're competitive they don't need to

  make everything perfect

  but part of the reason why this battery

  thing became such a big deal and part of

  the reason why so many people jumped on

  the on you know sometimes even wrong

  information about it but but definitely

  sensationalized the the motivations and

  and what was actually happening is

  because apples had problems for years

  where I OS has weird bugs is not tested

  well enough on old phones weird cruft

  accumulates with with older phones older

  installations like an upgraded sometimes

  you have things like this where you have

  to like restore your phone and that

  might fix it like this is all just

  problems that that arise from having a

  massive amount of technical debt and bad

  software quality that never gets a

  chance to get fixed if Apple had better

  software quality and better testing and

  better supporting these old devices the

  battery gate thing would have been a way

  less severe problem the like one of the

  biggest reasons why it looked the way it

  did is because there are so many quality

  problems with software on old phones and

  people you know Apple basically handed

  them on a platter a very good

  explanation for why their phones are

  this slow that isn't their fault that's

  Apple being evil it probably isn't the

  right explanation as John said like I

  think most if most people's phones are

  this slow it's probably not because the

  CPU speed has been cut down by you know

  50 or 60 percent whatever it is like

  this seems like a more severe software

  issue but the Apple like for years

  they've been ignoring this kind of

  software quality and it bit them really

  hard and there's lots of areas like you

  things like security where like you know

  technical debt can really come back and

  bite you hard maybe they need to really

  reconsider their priorities and and how

  much they value and and devote resources

  to quality of their software and running

  a little device especially as opposed to

  just plowing ahead and giving engineers

  no time to fix bugs alright Andres

  police rights does anyone other than

  tech blocker bloggers give a darn about

  smart speakers isn't there a gigantic

  market of dumb Bluetooth speakers it

  seems that way Oliver you're upright


  I seem to be taken over by on an

  unreasonably huge selection of these

  devices blah blah blah I'll get a home

  pod as soon as I can

  I doubt I'll ever say a single word to

  it can't blah blah blah blah middle part

  you're skipping over the important parts

  I didn't put the whole for the love of

  all that's good and holy okay from the

  from the middle part don't normal people

  just want a fantastic sounding speaker

  even if it's not the cutting edge of

  solving their lazy old white men

  problems of switching off the mood

  lights are turning on their smart

  kettles I know I want a great speaker

  that connect seamlessly to my Apple

  devices so I'll get a home pod as soon

  as I can buy dad will ever say a single

  word to it the reason I put this in here

  is like so if I had to summarize this

  nasai less snarky way it's like

  Bluetooth speakers we all have a

  Bluetooth speaker I bet a lot of people


  they're everywhere it's kind of it

  becomes sort of the baseline for so you

  want a little speaker that's better than

  your your phone speakers that you can

  play stuff from your phone or whatever

  right and he's right there's lots of

  Bluetooth speakers around so why do you

  even need all like what's the deal with

  the home pod if it was just a Bluetooth

  speaker wouldn't that be fine who cares

  about things you can talk to except for

  as he you know puts it like turning on

  your mood lighting her your smart tea

  kettles or whatever and he even says

  I'll get one because he wants something

  connected Apple devices by dental or

  assessing a wardrobe i think this falls

  into the same category albeit less i'll

  be much more angry as casey wear and i

  think we've talked about these before

  and I want to reiterate to it if it

  seems silly that you're talking to your

  speaker no speaker who cares about the

  talking about that seems silly people

  who say that probably have not tried one

  of these things and I know if you

  haven't done it it sounds like a froofy

  thing but as a technology required to

  make something that works like this goes

  down and I argue it's pretty low already

  considering you get a little Amazon dot

  that does a pretty good job of

  understanding what you're saying the

  utility of it will be apparent these

  things are not popular for no reason so

  I would once again urge everybody if

  you've never had a thing like this that

  you talked to don't immediately dismiss

  the idea of talking to it as something

  that like is a passing fad or a thing

  that only you rich lazy people do or

  whatever it is a technology that has

  utility talking to things is a useful

  interface in many situations and that's

  why I think

  as time marches on Bluetooth speakers

  that you can't talk to will become less

  popular in the same way that like

  smartphones that were not iPhones became

  less popular because you could do some

  the same stuff but once you've spoken to

  something to tell you to play music

  having to go to your device and flick

  around in an interface and send the

  audio to the Bluetooth thing just seems

  it doesn't just seem slower it is slower

  it is less convene it's a different way

  of interacting with things so I would

  once again sigh do not do not just miss

  talking to cylinders there they're good

  to talk to you know I I understand why

  you brought me up earlier I I have mixed

  feelings about this but I think even

  despite having never had an echo or any

  I stumbled because I have couldn't

  remember if that was gonna trigger them

  or not despite having never had an echo

  in my house I I think to some degree I

  understand the draw it's not something I

  feel like I need but I do think I

  understand it the reason I'm so grumpy

  about the home pod is because I want to

  be able to shout at my home pod hey you

  know cylinder play such-and-such by such

  and such artists and in the fact that I

  can't do that unless I have either that

  in my library or an Apple music

  subscription is what bums me out because

  as I talked about for a very long time

  previously I would like to use Spotify

  to do that and yes I am aware that you

  can do basic controls like you know hey

  cylinder skip to the next track and it

  will work even if your air playing

  Spotify like I get that but the whole

  point is I want to be able to say hey

  cylinder play placed on hold by me math

  and I want it to just work without

  having to pay Apple for an Apple music

  subscription this was a more general

  this person is more general anger is

  like don't normal people what you want

  just wanted a speaker even if it's not

  on the cutting edge of solving your late

  like it's not your lazy old men problems

  right and mood lighting and stuff like

  that it's not that you're lazy it's like

  saying don't know when people just want

  to command line so the solving your lazy

  problems of oh no you're just pointed

  the thing on the screen with the mouse

  and click on it like it's just this sort

  of backwards macho thinking that you

  don't need any fancy thing to do that it

  should be fine to do it the way

  currently works

  we just want a Bluetooth speaker that

  sounds good you don't need to talk to

  things it's like no like people have

  tried it and it's it's convenient to

  talk to things sometimes not all the

  time it's not the best thing in the

  world but it is an interface that has

  proven its utility and just because you

  you don't find utility in it or you have

  never tried so you have no idea what it

  would be like doesn't mean it doesn't

  have utility and doesn't mean everyone

  who's talking to their cylinders or

  their phones or their watches or talking

  to their cars to tell them to call so

  then I think their hands off the wheel

  too you know call home while they're


  those are good user interfaces they do

  not reflect badly on the people who use

  them and people who think that way

  should reconsider some brief feedback

  brief follow-up on my Raspberry Pi music

  player that I discussed last week lots

  of people wrote in to suggest that I try

  something that uses that reads RFID or

  NFC tags and there's a been a number of

  projects that do this one of the best

  ones I've seen is called plastic player

  and and there's a few of the projects

  that were similar where basically you

  have a Raspberry Pi with an NFC reading

  board and you stick NFC stickers to the

  back of some kind of like card or

  something there was also a really

  awesome original NES like it like kind

  of like an NES mini project that

  somebody made that used RFID reading

  cartridges like he would he made like

  little mini versions of old NES

  cartridges in throw them into an old

  mini NES had like the power and reset

  buttons all wired up to actually do

  correct things and it was but in the in

  reality it wasn't playing the games off

  of the cartridges it was playing them

  off of internal memory and the

  cartridges were simply telling it what

  to play and that's how all these RFID

  based music players work - some of them

  play them off a Spotify or something

  some of them play them off of internal

  storage so I started playing with this I

  actually I got a NFC board I was a

  little hesitant at first because they

  were there there don't seem to be any

  kind of like quick little plug-and-play

  boards like the like the sound cards you

  can get some that fit the Raspberry Pi

  hat specification which is like it's

  just like a board that like sticks on

  top of the Raspberry Pi it like with

  like a predefined connector on the on

  the main i/o connector and you just kind

  of stick it on and it stacks on top

  nicely and it's like plug and play and

  it just works pretty easily

  there's none of those 4r

  NFC reading that I could find at least

  none that were maintained so I had to

  get like a different board that required

  me to actually acquire it and then later

  on I soldered some stuff and it was kind

  of fun but and I'm terrible at soldering

  this is the first time I've done it in

  years and still terrible at it but

  slowly getting less terrible anyway so

  now I have one that plays via NFC it's

  just using internal storage and the NFC

  cards that I'm sticking like on the

  reader just play the album and it's

  really nice it's still a little bit in

  progress but I'm really enjoying it so

  far I'm kind of I'm really enjoying this

  crazy little world of making fun crap as

  as you know procrastination when I'm

  waiting for overcast to get through test

  flight beta review or something like

  that it's it's nice and yeah I'm really

  enjoying this world that's about all I

  don't have anything to show for it yet

  but it's coming along well it's getting

  pretty cool and so once it's done I'll

  like take pictures and make a blog post

  maybe I don't know you sure you should

  get TIFF to help you design the case for

  it you can do you know she can make a

  nice case or do something like painting

  on the outside you got to involve her in

  this project show she'll allow you to

  put this thing in a prominent place in

  the home hi so I actually already have

  version one of it in a case in a

  prominent place in the home that she has

  approved I'm I'm not going to spoil what

  the case is yet I will tell you that it

  was manufactured by Apple oh my anyway

  once it's done I'll take pictures I'm

  gonna I actually ordered a Raspberry Pi

  0 W which is much smaller than the

  full-size Raspberry Pi to help it fit

  better into this case but we will see

  how that goes when it arrives you should

  have saved your trashcan so you could

  chuck these little NFC cards into the


  chuck them into the hole and then they

  rattle down to the bottom and it plays

  the the song eventually you have to turn

  the thing upside down and empty em all

  out do the trash we respond to this week

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  fresh for sponsoring our show apparently

  in the last week or so there have been

  some rejections of iPhone apps or iOS

  apps I guess I should say that use emoji

  as part of the user interface the

  rejections have said something along the

  lines of listen that's you know Apple

  copyrighted material which really is

  true you can't use that in a campion

  screenshots you really got to change

  your app let me start by saying that I

  am quite confident by the letter of the

  law Apple is 100% right and they are

  there's nothing we can really do about

  it but it seems short sighted and stupid

  that apple provides all these beautiful

  emoji and as most of you probably know I

  do love me some emoji that apple

  provides all these beautiful emoji and

  then if you use them as part of you user

  interface they stomp on you and say no

  that's not allowed

  now shortly before we went to record

  tonight I had seen some rumblings about

  this maybe being walked back so instead

  of spending the entire rest of this

  episode on it I guess we just kind of

  talked about it and then move along and

  hope that it's getting resolved but man

  that just seems dumb like I understand

  that yes it is their right to do this

  but it's just dumb I I don't get it

  and it's I like using emoji like I can't

  say that I've done this day at work but

  if I was writing my own iOS app I would

  absolutely use emoji in my in my user

  interface from time to time because I

  just think it's cute and fun but gosh I

  don't dig it and I haven't had the

  chance to listen to the most recent

  connected which will link in the show

  notes where Jeremy Burch FMOD mojo pedia

  is on and I guess that interview is

  probably pretty good because Jeremy's

  pretty damn awesome it is you're missing

  a lot you really really should have

  listened to it it's it's really your


  I know I will listen to what six hours

  ago already been a little busy but no

  the the connected guys of course are

  dear friends of ours and and Jeremy even

  though we've never met he's a dear

  friend of mine he just doesn't know it

  and so I'll talk with him does that


  that is superhot and in any case the

  point of join it was a giant hot pool it

  wasn't a hot tub

  well in that case not so hot no anyway

  you should listen to that and just

  certainly one of you guys I guess Marco

  if you'd like to jump in kind of fill in

  the gaps here but I just I don't care

  for it I understand swith in Apple's

  right but I don't care for it and I

  think it's a it's just a poor decision

  so Marco since you seem to be more read

  up on this than I anything you can add

  or fill in or kind of clarify for me I

  mean once again the the the specific day

  that we are recording is kind of

  inconvenient for the story because it

  does seem to be like kind of in progress

  and still in motion so this may be out

  of date by the time that I'm able to you

  know release this tomorrow morning or

  whatever but I think Apple clearly needs

  to the final line of what is okay and

  what is not because certain things with

  their emoji are

  you know the emoji is Apple's

  copyrighted work not that different from

  you know it's the San Francisco font is

  Apple's font they own it they can

  dictate the terms of use one of the

  things that you can't do with the San

  Francisco font is you can't embed the

  San Francisco font on an Android app or

  on a website you can you can like call

  for it in your CSS but like you can't

  actually embed the files that would then

  show the San Francisco font to people on

  windows or people on Android because

  that's ripping off their copyrighted

  stuff and put it on your server and

  redistributing it like that's that's

  obviously over the line so similar

  things with emoji there are apps

  sometimes really big apps like I think

  like I'm not too familiar with the

  specifics but I think people were saying

  like whatsapp just copied all that emoji

  was putting it on all their platforms

  like on Android and stuff obviously

  taking apples emoji images and embedding

  them in your app on Android is obviously

  over the line and that should be you

  know enforced by Apple's Copyright

  Department that makes total sense so

  obviously there is a line of what is too

  far the question is where is that line

  being drawn and it seems like that might

  still be in flux or the or maybe there

  was some interpretation by a preview

  that is still in flux I don't know

  obviously I think anything that involves

  you taking the images off the system and

  and manipulating the images themselves

  is probably not right and not cool with

  Apple but I don't think it's right for

  Apple to say that like a text label in

  your app can't include characters in

  this range being rendered by the system

  fonts that I think is is too restrictive

  and you know so for me from a technical

  perspective I think it's easy to define

  that line you're allowed to use emoji in

  your app if it's being rendered as text

  like by the text system being rendered

  as text that makes total sense that

  seems reasonable

  because then Apple can change the images

  whenever they want it can only ever

  render that way on Apple's platforms

  because you're not embedding the images

  you're just calling for the text

  characters so if you if you do the same

  thing on Android or somewhere else it's

  gonna render the Android mojo set which

  is what you should be doing that I think

  is a very good line to draw it's unclear

  whether they are drawing that line or

  not one of the

  that kind of kicked all this off is an

  app by Sam Eckert called bit tracker so

  bit tracker has basically emoji all over

  the UI like in in text labels there's

  like little emoji Thanos how salient

  everything but that looks okay to me and

  so he this is mostly coming out like on

  his Twitter account over the last few

  days and originally he got rejected then

  he got a phone call from a preview and

  in the phone call it's like a perv you

  apparently told him that you cannot use

  emoji anywhere in your app UI except

  like the user being able to enter text

  so like if there's a text field and the

  user can type emoji into the text field

  that's okay and if you're doing things

  with that text like displaying a message

  that someone else sent that person that

  happens to include emoji that's okay but

  what he was told on the phone is

  apparently that you cannot use emoji in

  the UI in other ways but then app review

  decided to retroactively Lee go back and

  approve his app after all and to let him

  use the emoji that way but we haven't

  yet received clarification on the policy

  so whether the policy is actually

  different we have no idea

  and this is a little bit you know I have

  a little bit of skin in this game

  because overcast has a couple of small

  uses of emoji in the interface if you if

  you star an episode a little emoji star

  will show up if you have not downloaded

  it but it's simply being streamed a

  little cloud will show up both these

  things appear in the detail label like

  relate the date shows on the episode and

  and oh and I use the emoji heart it like

  you know also in tiny little form in the

  text label for becoming a premium

  subscriber so obviously I have some skin

  in this game because if this policy is

  super restrictive in the way that that

  he was told on the phone that you can't

  use emoji at all unless the user is

  typing it in then everything I just said

  about overcast would be prohibited and

  that would be unfortunate but the the

  unfortunate reality is that we don't

  know is this is one of those vague

  AppStore times where either somebody

  made a big mistake by telling symetric

  this policy over the phone which i think

  is unlikely or the policy is shifting

  which is probably the more likely answer

  that that they that they're considering

  feedback and maybe that maybe the

  considering they went too far so again

  some policing of their emoji is

  necessary there's a very clear line

  where like if you're pulling the images

  and putting them on other platforms or

  playing with them as images that's

  probably not cool but if you are just

  calling for emoji as characters in text

  labels in your app being rendered by the

  text system in the system I don't think

  that should be prohibited

  they case you know what you said up

  front like they can legally that's

  totally within their rights to prohibit

  that I just I don't think they should

  the language of emoji has become such a

  such a critical part of what's currently

  in fashion and app design and and how

  people are communicating and what people

  expect to see and what they expect to be

  able to use that I think restricting it

  from being used in in the kind of

  innocent way I was saying earlier of

  like being used like in text labels

  restricting that I think would be a big

  mistake for just kind of the the like

  design landscape of iOS apps and I don't

  think I pause to worry about like

  dilution of their brand or losing

  control of their copyright with these

  images as long as it's being rendered by

  the text system on their device and not

  in other places that actually in my

  opinion reinforces their brand because

  then all these apps that have these

  unique looks that include apples emoji

  in their text fields can't look the same

  way on other platforms and that actually

  I think reinforces the like design walls

  are on Apple make sure that look if you

  want your app to look like this cool to

  have this kind of cool mood it has to be

  on iOS it can't be anywhere else like

  III think any any effort to restrict

  apps from using emoji in the UI in this

  kind of you know relatively innocent way

  with the text system I think is not a

  good decision and and is likely to do

  more harm than good

  not you know not to mention it's gonna

  really annoy and anger a lot of

  developers so the last point you brought

  up about emoji being a differentiating

  factor for Apple's platform is I think

  starting to get that the angle that I'm

  taking on this as a Jeremy pointed out

  in emoji PD Oracle Google has an emoji

  font too but there is has different

  licensing terms he describes as an

  open-source license that allows other

  projects use it within the term set out

  blah blah blah but like but it's a

  different license alright so it's still

  Google so own

  it but it's easier to use elsewhere so

  Jason Snell had a heart of gold

  recently on six colors talking about

  slack used to let you pick which emoji

  you want do you want to see apples emoji

  do you want to see Google's emoji what

  are the other choices there was a bunch

  all their Twitter hostile emoji emoji

  once not like it had a bunch of emojis

  clearly like embedded in the app somehow

  because I think it was like this on all

  platforms right even if you were on

  Windows or whatever you can get the

  Apple emoji and then obviously applets

  no no and because they were using you

  know using platforms so Apple must have

  gone to them because now you don't have

  that option anymore you get that you can

  get the Apple ology and Apple platforms

  but not on Windows or whatever and but

  if you're on Windows you can get the

  Google emoji because Google's license is

  more permissive when it comes to what

  Apple should or shouldn't do with its

  emoji rights yes there is the angle

  that's saying look if you're on Apple

  platforms you get our nice emoji we

  think our mode you're good they make our

  platform nicer to use because we think

  they're better than other people's emoji

  and people can use them in their

  interface like marker or whatever and

  that's a differentiating factor the

  other angle is if Apple decided to have

  a much more permissive license for its

  emoji what could happen and what I think

  is already kind of sort of happening

  without apples permission is they could

  attain visual dominance but like they

  could become the face of emoji to the

  world like the the what they decide the

  representation of each one of these

  fairly vaguely specified emoji symbols

  is what they artwork they choose and

  their art style and their all their

  artistic choices could come to define

  emoji across the entire industry

  including when they decide to change an

  emoji or make a new emoji or whatever

  like that they could become the de-facto

  leaders of emoji merely by having the

  most widely-used set uh and you know

  Google's is very widely used as well I

  don't think Google is winning that

  battle judged based on like how often

  apples emoji are copied without

  permission rather than using Google's

  with permission it's like given the

  choice between Google lets me use it in

  my app or platform so I'm an Apple

  doesn't but I kind of like the Apple

  ones better right so that position being

  the sort of visual leader of emoji for

  the entire world also has value

  I'm not sure the value of saying if you

  want apples nice emoji come for the owl

  platform is worth the sacrifice because

  this happens all the time for me like

  when you're communicating with emoji if

  you're just communicating with all your

  Apple using friends you're all in the

  same page about what the emoji looks

  like right but if you're communicating

  across platforms it's harder to know

  what their if they're seeing the little

  face with the teary eyes or the whatever

  like or the the thing that looks like a

  grimace that's supposed to be a grin

  like there can be miscommunication

  because of differences in art style and

  people on Apple platforms experience

  that me as an Apple user I wish that

  Apple would widely license its emoji to

  whoever the heck wanted it so I could be

  sure that other people would see the

  same things I did because I had the

  expectation that given the choice

  they'll choose apples emoji over

  Google's whose goals is weird and ugly

  or whatever like I don't know if that's

  entirely true but I would prefer that

  world and I think being the de facto

  visual leader emoji has more value to

  Apple as a company than retaining its

  fancy stuff to only be on its platform

  there's also the issue of like app

  design quality like you know this is not

  quite the same but honestly it's not

  that different imagine if we were not

  allowed to use the same at the San

  Francisco font in our apps that Apple

  had this wonderful system font that all

  their apps used but the third part of

  developers could not use the San

  Francisco font in their apps period what

  that would mean would be that every app

  would have to figure out some fonts that

  it could use probably make its own or by

  its own license its own so what that

  would do is not only would all apps look

  different like way more than they do now

  and sometimes in bad ways but that also

  would draw some lines between apps that

  had money behind them and apps that

  didn't so much it would make that more

  apparent and you would have you'd have

  like a bigger quality a visual quality

  difference making quality app design

  less accessible to people and also there

  would be somebody out there like you

  know we would all just go use the Google

  open-source fonts or whatever like there

  would be some small collection of free

  or low-cost fonts for developers to just

  go get instead and so you would have iOS


  the design as you were just saying

  jointly the design would basically be

  dictated by third parties like googled

  who were offering some kind of

  permissive font that we could use

  instead the emotion situation if we

  can't use them in text labels and stuff

  isn't that different because the fact is

  app design is including emoji now that

  is happening it's been happening it's

  going to happen more emoji is how is is

  a is becoming an increasing part of how

  people use computers what how people

  expect to be able to use apps what

  people how how things should look how

  people expect things to look so a lot of

  apps want or need to use emoji in their

  UI and if we can't use Apple's emoji

  there we're gonna have to go get our own

  made which almost no one can afford to

  do this with the biggest companies or go

  you know license some open-source just

  so you go use some open source one like

  Google's if we I don't even know if

  we're allowed to put their license but I

  know it's pretty permissive so maybe an

  English case what you said is right John

  in which case then you know app then all

  third-party apps on iOS looked like

  these weird other emoji and then apples

  look weird by comparison you know so

  that's not a good situation to be in

  which is why I think like for the same

  reason that we are allowed to use the

  San Francisco font in our apps on iOS as

  long as we don't like rip out that font

  and bring it to Android for that same

  reason we should also be able to use the

  Apple emoji set in our you eyes as long

  as that emoji set does not leave iOS

  well I wanted to be used on Android too

  because I want the uniformity but as for

  using it just in iOS Apple does have a

  point which I can imagine being made in

  some future to view that would be

  secession if it hasn't already in that

  they're not gonna say this but it would

  almost be better if you if you like

  ripped off the image as a ping and put

  it in your app than if you did it as a

  character because if you do it as a

  character Apple changes its emoji font

  from time to time and your UI like if

  they changed that star to be something

  totally different and it clashes with

  you UI all of sudden because it's not

  yellow anymore and you expected it to be

  yellow or the cloud that used to look a

  certain way it looks a totally different

  way and you know sometimes they change

  the the emoji so much that semantically

  doesn't even you know convey the same


  it's probably not a good idea to use a

  little graphic that you don't control as

  part of your user interface unless

  you're willing to chase that around but

  of course once you start taking ripping

  off the image of it that's even worse in

  terms of Apple getting all uppity about

  it's a copyright and everything so again

  if they gave a permissive license and

  just consider these like these are free

  glyphs that you can use in your thing if

  you want it you know that's the case

  where I would say if you want to use it

  as your user interface you can only do

  it on an Apple platform so it not on any

  other ones and then that the license

  would say if you want to use it as you

  know as text or like if someone types

  text and they want to see like in the

  slack application on Windows that would

  be the case where you say fine you can

  use our emoji just don't use them in

  your user interface on Windows but it

  you can use them for typing on those

  anyway I think there's a thing there's

  definitely a way for Apple to sort of

  have their cake and eat it too and I

  don't think the the way that is the most

  benefit to Apple you're setting aside

  developers the most been an apple is

  keeping it so tight that you know that

  people can use it even on Apple's

  platform and I don't even think it's

  gonna eat it just to confine it to a

  because I don't think there's any

  advantage or I don't think the advantage

  is worth being that restrictive and

  saying come to Apple for our cool emoji

  because people won't and some other

  uglier form of emoji will spread

  everywhere and then Apple people will

  feel weird because they'll send you the

  grimacing face and other people will see

  something different and not understand

  what you're saying and that will make

  Apple people feel marginalized rather

  than the other way around I just want us

  to be able to use some OG on Apple

  platforms just like Marco said is that

  so much to ask

  yeah I mean I've been following the drum

  but I'm sure I'm assuming that that

  there'll be some nuances there because I

  think Apple's goal is to make sure emoji

  and stuff looks nice on their own

  platform right I don't think they're

  gonna be so restrictive as the you know

  they did let the guys that through but

  that's just you know that's just me

  thinking that the App Store has been

  more reasonable than usual in the past

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  our show I started using its adieu app

  this past winter I had only one well

  I'll get there okay I had always kind of

  used reminders the bill Tina rappley

  reminders app very lightly like I'd have

  it remind me of maybe one thing a week

  and you know simple stuff like take out

  the garbage you know stuff like that

  I very lightly used it and it was never

  really never ly a habit for overcast

  planning I kept a task paper document

  since the beating of overcast and even

  before that since for a lot of


  and I still find the test paper format

  really nice for like planning a software

  release for an indie developer like me

  but this past holiday season I was just

  super busy and like everything in my

  life was like half done projects and

  things I had to you know worry about and

  check in on and and try to complete all

  this crazy stuff and I finally started

  using reminders very heavily and what

  really got me into it was Siri capture

  see refresh hurts me a lot

  but it's pretty good at reminders like

  it's you know it's not perfect but it's

  it's close enough that it's like it's

  useful and I found it to be a very nice

  way to capture like as I'm out as I'm

  thinking about something oh

  remind me to blah blah blah you know

  okay the problem with Apple reminders is

  that while the Siri capture on Apple

  reminders is great

  pretty much everything else about it is

  terrible like the the only reason why I

  ever used reminders to enter tasks is

  because I'd never had to actually use

  the reminders app to enter a task

  creating a task on the reminders app is

  awful like the the UI is incredibly

  clunky it's ugly it's hideous it still

  has a lot of like weird like iOS you

  know pre iOS seven kind of behaviors and

  looks and everything it and and it's

  it's especially horrible on the Mac like

  it's way worse than the Mac but no does

  an iOS it the Apple reminders on the Mac

  is honestly embarrassing and and maybe

  at some point they're going to do what

  they did with notes where they like they

  totally redid the Notes app a few years

  back and made it awesome maybe that's

  coming to reminders I hope it's coming

  reminders but we don't know whether that

  will happen yet so I started seeking out

  third-party apps to to help me finally

  do either of you use reminders or to do

  apps because of hearing a friend of the

  show Mike Hurley talked about it

  constantly I think it was Mike I'm

  pretty sure it was Mike now I'm having

  second thoughts but anyway somebody in

  my life had talked about the app D you e

  do and because I decided that I wanted

  to have occasional periodic reminders

  that were repeating and all I wanted was

  reminders I didn't want to go all the

  way into like OmniFocus or anything like

  that I just wanted to have reminders are

  repeated I've started using D you e do

  and if I'm honest I kind of really love

  it because it does exactly what I want

  which is reminders often times but not

  always periodic and most importantly

  that will nag you to death which is

  exactly what I need because I'm the kind

  of person that'll be like oh yeah take

  out the trash yeah sure I'll do that in

  ten minutes

  you know like clear you know clear the

  notification whatever you can't clear

  the notification until you did it

  mistake you can never clear never I mean

  unless it's complete I know I'm not

  saying it's not a KC problem but I know

  myself one has to know oneself and I

  know myself and myself is the kind of

  person oh yeah sure I'll get that in a


  and so I have been using do for I want

  to say three to six months and I kind of

  love it I just used the default

  reminders one

  I'm also because it was the one that had

  serious support for so long when no

  other ones did right so remind me to

  whatever like that's one of the few

  times I use Siri to do that occasionally

  I will type them in and you can actually

  type like remind me to you know do

  whatever at 7:00 p.m. tomorrow and that

  will save you from having to look at the

  UI that lets you pick dates and times

  which is not fun to use but that's it

  just never use any third-party apps I

  use it very rarely it's usually like and

  like Marco said usually for capture like

  I'm in a situation where however I would

  normally make sure I remembered you this

  is not available I can't put it on my

  calendar or that would be too cumbersome

  but my phone is there so you just pick

  it up baba remind me to do the bubble

  blah right you know remind me to go pick

  up my daughter and in 15 minutes to

  remind me to I'm you know I usually

  Ferb's you know ro I mean just throw the

  sauce in ten minutes or whatever that's

  why I get annoyed that it won't do a

  repeating reminder for 10 minutes

  because I don't know why because it

  won't but but yeah not very frequently

  but when I do use it it's Syria and it's

  on my phone and it's plain old reminders

  quick addendum I should mention that for

  shopping lists and only shopping lists I

  also use the app any list which I love

  it's really really great at doing shared

  shopping lists before everyone writes me

  email yes I am aware that reminders can

  do shared reminders lists I am I am

  aware that that's a thing I don't care

  for it I much prefer any list for

  reasons that are not interesting for

  right now but anyway I use any list and

  I don't remember if I stumbled upon that

  myself or if that's because Jason Snell

  who is also in any list person had told

  me about it it could have been either

  but one way or another if you're the

  kind of person that wants to have a


  that's shared between you and your

  partner which is me I'd wouldn't I'm

  sorry your partner isn't me you know

  what I mean

  point I'm driving at is that if you want

  to have a shared shopping list I cannot

  recommend any list enough the notes will

  do that now to the fancy version of

  notes has that's true that's true can

  you can make a shared note and you can

  put those little radio buttons on it's

  not as nice as any list but you know if

  you're if you're it's a good way to try

  out like you see if this is a thing that

  you'll want to use and you don't want to

  bother downloading another I've just

  tried and notes and if it seems nice get

  a better app like any list yeah yeah I

  keep mean to try any list because of

  your recommendations Casey mostly I

  think it's like I've heard you mention

  her a few times and yeah because I would

  like to like right now I just have a

  shopping list and the way we share it is

  TIFF tells me hey add this to your

  shopping list

  oh that's barbaric that's far better

  that's a good system that I bet she

  likes oh I have a worse problem like

  I've I've been trying to get my wife to

  use any kind of shared grocery list I

  bought and subscribe to any list I've

  tried using notes I've tried using other

  third-party apps whose names I've

  forgotten it's just go down my purchases

  and just the problem is she she just

  wants to use paper she just wants to use

  paper it's like in her purse or in her

  wallet and she wants to use the

  whiteboard that's on the fridge and like

  three pieces of paper in the whiteboard

  I'm like but but those aren't

  electronically shared and if I read it

  on the like oh I didn't see it on the

  whiteboard I had a separate list I wrote

  down on this piece of paper so I'm stuck

  outside the digital realm there's no

  real computer solution to that

  just like I bet TIFF enjoys the system

  where she just yells things to you and

  it's like paper doesn't work for me

  because so right now I use the app clear

  and I know I've heard they're they have

  like a new beta going on that's supposed

  to be a lot better but I'm not on that

  beta I'm just using the old one which is

  like not even updated for the iPhone 10

  and everything but what I like about

  clear is that it's very simple and it

  lets me manually reorder things really

  easily you could drag the road it's

  because what I do with my shopping lists

  the reason I don't use paper is you know

  I'll enter things you know however they

  come to me but then before I go shot I'm

  the shopper and before I go shopping I

  reorder them to be in the order that I

  know they're in the store because I know

  I know the stores really well like it's

  so like I know where things are and so

  all the Rings I'm like okay I'll be that

  you know walking to the produce first of

  all the pretty stuff on top and I and so

  as I'm going through the store I can

  very quickly check them off

  Marco why do you do this to yourself any

  list will do this for you doesn't know

  my stores well no it doesn't know your

  stores but if you enter I don't know

  like banana it will be smart enough to

  put that in the produce section so it's

  also a single list will be section 2 2

  in it defaults to groceries but you can

  set up you know other things but if you

  enter banana it is smart enough to put

  that in the produce section if you enter

  milk it's smart enough to put that in

  the dairy section you are begging for

  any list you just don't know it

  alright that's a I will I will

  definitely give it a shot anyway so

  going back to my to-do item look I've

  been trying to talk about for like -

  alright so what I what I really came to

  want like I wanted basically something

  that was fairly simple like reminders

  that had great Siri integration I

  basically wanted like reminders Pro like

  what reminders would be if Apple did it

  from scratch today and actually put

  resources on it instead of just whatever

  the heck is working on it and how it

  works is probably nobody what I want is

  reminders Pro basically I don't want to

  practice getting things done or any kind

  of GTD like system I know I'm not that

  kind of person I respect people who do

  that that's that's great for you and

  that's not for me at all I want

  basically a flat simple like single

  screen home view of what's going on when

  I complete that I'm I want to disappear

  I don't want to see future items at all

  until their date comes up you know I

  have the concept of like separate

  projects or lists but I only need like

  one level of that I don't need things

  like contacts and tags to also be here

  like I really just need like a very

  simple hierarchy very simple like flat

  structure and I really dislike the

  concept that most these other apps have

  where they have an inbox between capture

  and when it's in like it's home I don't

  want that extra step I don't want to

  have to review my inbox I want I want to

  just say in my Siri command when I'm

  recording the to-do item I want to say

  where it goes right then and not have

  anything in the inbox if I don't specify

  a project I want like a default list

  that just all the - I just arrived in

  that list

  this is this is basically have reminders

  works just reminders is terrible in all

  other ways and I've want something

  better so the Mac is my primary platform

  for viewing editing and completing tasks

  so it must have a good Mac app my

  primary capture platform is Siri on the

  phone so it must have an iOS app with

  Siri integration it should be able to

  handle recurring tasks pretty well

  because I have a lot of those and I want

  whatever app I use to be an active

  development on all three major Apple

  platforms Mac iPhone and iPad so some

  nice to haves I would like maybe to have

  shared list or shared projects I think I

  might someday want a web service for

  some kind of API integration but I

  haven't in practice actually needed that

  for anything yet so maybe I won't

  actually need that after all and just

  kind of a nice to have like the apps

  should be pretty because I'm an apple

  person damn it and I like things to be

  pretty like I'm like an attractive app

  that is you know simple and has a little

  stuff okay so Apple reminders was not

  doing it for me in many ways I like it

  you know I like the integration Apple

  reminders is the only one that works

  with Siri on the Mac because there is no

  Sirikit on the Mac so any of the

  third-party apps no matter how good

  their Mac apps are they cannot take it

  take it to do item from Siri on the Mac

  that's annoying but that's an Apple

  problem really that's that's not there

  at the apps fault you know the Apple

  reminders app will always get system

  integration abilities and stuff like

  that first before those are third-party

  way to do it if it doesn't arrive at the

  same time so there's a big advantage to

  Apple reminders they're just keeping it

  simple keeping in the system and

  everything but again it's just it's such

  a clunky app I really didn't like it

  very much

  I tried to do it to do it has tons of

  features it's very much web service

  oriented so it has really good

  collaboration features shared projects

  shared list API integration stuff like

  that they have apps on every platform

  but the two duyst Mac app is horrendous

  it is basically a very poorly wrapped

  web app like like slack it makes that

  look native-like it's real I cannot

  believe that oh it's bad it every

  interaction with the todoist Mac app

  feels just wrong and limited and nothing

  works the way you think honestly I think

  it's kind of embarrassing if if iOS is

  your primary platform like I understand

  like why Federico likes to do us because

  iOS it's a primary platform and he needs

  collaboration feature with some of his

  employees and stuff so that makes total

  sense but for me as somebody who works

  alone on a Mac I cannot recommend it to

  us at all it's it's rough I also I

  couldn't get over like hearing hearing

  the way that people like Federico and

  Mike talk about todoist one of the

  problems is that Siri doesn't really

  recognize the the pronunciation todoist

  you have to pronounce it wrong like two

  diced or other or like I couldn't get

  over that like I I know that's that's

  kind of a stupid reason to not pick an

  app but like even if everything else was

  great about it the fact that every time

  I added a reminder I have to tell my

  phone to add something seduced I didn't

  know if I couldn't get past so I also I

  tried OmniFocus this OmniFocus seems to

  be kind of like the the good default for

  if you want a powerful task management

  system you should probably just use

  OmniFocus the omni group makes amazing

  software that they have an amazing

  long-standing reputation for very high

  quality Mac and iOS software and and

  OmniFocus has been around for a long

  time it's a very mature of tons of

  guides on how to use it and everything

  it has first-class Siri integration it's

  frequently updated very well supported

  very powerful very customizable but it's

  ultimately very complex it's far too

  complex for me maybe someday I will

  graduate to OmniFocus but I'm not ready

  for that right now and I might never be

  you know it has a lot of roots in

  getting things done and and the kind of

  people who practice that kind of like

  more structured system than what I'm

  looking for maybe it would be possible

  to heavily customize it to be what I

  want but I honestly don't have the time

  or will to do that and again maybe

  someday I will but for now OmniFocus is

  just way too complex for me so then I

  tried things things has frankly the best

  Mac app I've seen like not among all the

  Mac guys

  to do it's a really good mac app I think

  the mac app is actually better than

  their iOS apps again first-class Siri

  integration one thing I like about

  things is that it's one syllable and

  it's a regular word that C R you can

  always recognize properly and it also

  doesn't sound too nerdy if I'm saying it

  when other people are around like if I

  have to say it's a joist to Siri that's


  how many focus sounds okay but a little

  nerdy things you breeze right right by

  you don't even hear it right on this on

  this topic of the names of the app by

  the way this is another place where I

  feel like I've been waiting too long for

  what seems like a pretty obvious

  advancement this I understand why

  circuit works the way it does with the

  name of the app as part of the sentence

  then you say it but that's not how

  people want to talk to their phones even

  if it's a nice one syllable normal word

  that's not how people want to talk to

  things right if someone decides that

  they're gonna use things as their

  reminder app this should be away in iOS

  to tell it when I say remind me to blah

  blah blah I mean to do it in things cuz

  I use things like it's not I don't think

  it's asking for the moon and it makes

  the experience so much better because

  your interface is talking and once I

  feel like I have to talk about

  particular syntax I'm playing a text

  adventure game with my phone I don't

  want to do that I want to speak I want

  to speak in a natural way that's one of

  the beautiful things that I love about a

  lot of the cylinders and like my Google

  home right for my Google home I just say

  things however the hell it occurs to me

  to say it and it amazes me that it

  figures out what I meant in a very

  narrow problem domain like remind me to

  or do like there's already a million

  ways to say set a reminder of all blah I

  shouldn't have to insert the name of the

  app I want to use especially if it's the

  same app every time that would avoid the

  Taos and it would just make it better

  this gets back to the you know default

  apps things over anyway that's I if

  Apple's looking for something for iOS 13

  not iOS 12 make that experience better

  because we do like talking to our phones

  we don't like say to doused or things or

  whatever yeah and and and there was

  actually they actually midoriko brought

  this up on connected this week the

  episode that you all should have already

  been listening to for the Jeremy Birds

  emoji interview anyway that was also in

  this episode and Federico mentioned like

  like you know people have for years we

  wanted Apple to have default apps choice

  for things like the browser in the mail

  client and I understand why they don't

  do that and

  you know there that's been argued to

  death but this does seem like an area

  where that's very easy to say yes to

  like sirikit has a limited number of

  intense there doesn't seem to be any

  downside to enabling like a default

  option for something for somebody to say

  like okay things is my reminders app

  like always put reminders and things you

  know the X or Y is my Notes app like

  that like that should be that should be

  supported there should be a system-wide

  preference to just default that and and

  if Apple you know really wants to make

  Syria awesome I hope they consider that

  but anyway so go just finishing up with

  things there's no shared functionality

  like know kind of like shared groups or

  lists or projects not like that there is

  no API or public web service but they

  did recently had an email in feature so

  you can kind of simulate parts of it you

  can like get like the add this two

  things working by basically using email

  as a gateway one of the annoying things

  about things his head I can't figure out

  how to make a new task from Siri go

  directly to no project anytime you can

  sit you can say like remind me today to

  do this thing and things and then it

  gets no project I think but it gets

  today I can't figure out how to make it

  go no project if you say any time it

  goes to the inbox I don't want it like I

  don't want anything to ever go to the

  inbox ever on the Mac you can configure

  it to basically skip that with quick

  entry but you can't do that with Siri

  kit on iOS yet and it annoys me but for

  the most part I have found things pretty

  good there's a couple of other small

  weirdnesses so for instance the

  repeating UI is really weird like once

  you get it set up it's fine but creating

  recurring events is very unintuitive

  like I mentioned earlier that I don't

  want things that are in the future to

  show up until it's their time to show up

  then is only done on the granularity of

  the day level so you can't say don't

  show up until Wednesday at 9:00 p.m.

  that I have to put out the cardboard

  recycling all day today I've had put out

  cut the cardboard recycling on my to-do

  list even though I really shouldn't do

  it till 9:00 p.m. you can

  a reminder to alert you of that at 9

  p.m. but it's gonna show up on your list

  all day I don't love that and and

  finally the weather it is an active

  development or not it's kind of a big

  question mark with things because the

  developer of a culture code went for a

  very long span between previous versions

  and it seemed that many times as though

  the app was abandoned and it turned out

  it wasn't but there were there were such

  long delays that it's a little hard to

  shake the fear that it might get

  abandoned again or go for long spans

  without updates again and so finally

  after trying all these apps I finally

  understand why so many of our podcaster

  friends are always talking about their

  frustrations with their to-do apps and

  why there are we switching between them

  and saying oh now I'm switching this

  because this thing I know we've me about

  this other app I finally get it because

  it's such it's it's a hard problem like

  this is a very personal app you're

  you're trying to codify people's

  internal mental systems in an app and

  that's really hard to do in a way that

  pleases many people no at none of these

  apps are perfect for almost anybody

  everyone is kind of 70% satisfied with

  any given one at most one thing I

  thought of though is that there's really

  nothing saying that you have to only use

  one to-do app for everything like case

  you mentioned earlier that you know you

  use any list for groceries and you use

  do for some other stuff like mmm it that

  is totally a solution like if you don't

  like the way things does recurring

  reminders like I could just have some

  other app remind me to take out the

  trash like I don't need things to be the

  app that does all that stuff there's

  nothing saying that you only have to use

  one app for everything you can have

  different to do apps for different needs

  depending on what they're good at your

  grocery store shopping list does not

  need to necessarily be in the same app

  as like your next version of your iOS

  app what you're doing for it it would be

  nice if one app could do multiple things

  like that in a way that didn't step on

  each other but doesn't have to be I've

  settled on things for the time being and

  I think I'm gonna be here for a while

  because the Mac app is just so much

  nicer than the other Mac apps

  and so I like things a lot it does fit

  what I want in some ways there's some

  things about that that are just friction

  to me but for the most part it's it's

  the closest I found to good for me but

  I'm also probably gonna check out any

  list for grocery stuff and I'm really

  curious to know whatever the heck clear

  is working on for their next version for

  you know other like really casual stuff

  like groceries but ultimately I'm now

  using it to do app and it's things and

  it's pretty nice not perfect but

  definitely the nicest for me once I kind

  of got a feel for it it just felt really

  right for for the way I like to use

  things and the way I like things to to

  look and work and behave and yeah there

  is some friction but ultimately I like

  it so thanks things

  what are you use for your calendar

  calendar and so how do you decide

  whether something goes on your calendar

  or in one of those to-do app things oh

  that's that's easy a to-do app is a list

  of things I need to get done a calendar

  is a list of like time slots that are

  booked so like you know it and this is

  great apologies to people like Merlin

  who have talked about this at great

  length forever but like you know a

  calendar entry is like a thing that I

  have to do at that time so like if I

  have to have a meeting with somebody or

  recording a podcast like that has to

  happen at a certain time that is not a

  to-do entry that's a do entry as things

  like you know follow-up about this thing

  I had this email about like you know

  stuff it's or like you know check out

  the trash you know sometime today or

  stuff like that that exactly wanted to

  be told to take out the trash precisely

  at 9:00 yes but I don't have to do it at

  9:00 I have to do it sometime between

  9:00 and tomorrow morning so where would

  you put the fact that a plumber is

  coming that's a calendar entry because

  that is how that is like a thing that is

  happening at a certain time it's not a

  to-do item it's it's an event like

  that's that's a very different you know

  semantics thing I think that the line is

  fuzzier than you're making it sound

  because anything I feel like has a date

  and a time associated with it is a

  potential candidate for our calendar but

  it's also a potential candidate for a

  reminder but it's also a potential