The Accidental Tech Podcast

264: Every Building Has Bugs


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  thank you so much to Linode for [TS]

  sponsoring our show there's been some [TS]

  interesting news coming out of Apple [TS]

  Park you know previously known as Apple [TS]

  Campus 2 it seems that it's a hazardous [TS]

  place to work and it seems that people [TS]

  are running into glass walls I don't [TS]

  even know where the genesis of this [TS]

  story was but apparently somebody has a [TS]

  mast I've seen a link at some point [TS]

  somebody has amassed 911 calls that [TS]

  relate to people walking into the glass [TS]

  walls at Apple Park or something like [TS]

  that [TS]

  what's going on here I mean this is a [TS]

  problem that almost every office [TS]

  building that does a glass design or a [TS]

  glass redesign has at some point I mean [TS]

  like when I remember when I interviewed [TS]

  as I was job seeking for the job that [TS]

  eventually ended up being tumblr back in [TS]

  2006 I had an interview of Bloomberg and [TS]

  here in New York and they had all glass [TS]

  everywhere and it was very very hard for [TS]

  me to navigate that office like I [TS]

  couldn't fly like like look around the [TS]

  rooms like fine like where's the door [TS]

  out of the room I am in like you had to [TS]

  really look hard to see like which of [TS]

  these walls is a door actually it was [TS]

  very very strange I was part of the [TS]

  interview process this part of the test [TS]

  god I failed so many tests in that [TS]

  interview I felt every test including [TS]

  try to escape the room but anyway and I [TS]

  remember it was a fairly moderate like [TS]

  the building was fairly young at that [TS]

  point and I remember a few the employees [TS]

  telling me that they had to install rows [TS]

  of logo stickers at eye level on all the [TS]

  glass because people kept running into [TS]

  it now as this story has played out [TS]

  today with Apple Park we've heard so [TS]

  many like Twitter responses and people [TS]

  in the chat talking about it about like [TS]

  how this happens in like every office [TS]

  building that that does that goes with [TS]

  all glass for all the walls inside like [TS]

  people always earns them all the time [TS]

  and they always have to end up you know [TS]

  installing some kind of sticker or [TS]

  something you know to make the glass not [TS]

  transparent in a really obvious eye [TS]

  level place so the fact that people are [TS]

  running into glass with apparently no [TS]

  decoration or insufficient decoration on [TS]

  it is not surprising at all that is I [TS]

  think it's a well proven thing that that [TS]

  happens so that isn't surprising at all [TS]

  it the only surprising part of this to [TS]

  me and and the kind of sad part is like [TS]

  did they not know this would happen it [TS]

  this is not a new thing that happens in [TS]

  glass buildings like surely someone had [TS]

  to have told Johnny I've super along the [TS]

  design of this like someone had to have [TS]

  mentioned this like so how did this come [TS]

  how does this how does the building get [TS]

  designed with this ignored that that's [TS]

  what I want to know like again it's like [TS]

  it's almost like the home pod brain [TS]

  thing it's like did they not know like I [TS]

  don't know it it's concerning either way [TS]

  like they should have known and this is [TS]

  again this is a small thing this is not [TS]

  I mean the only reason we're talking [TS]

  about this is because we just fell on [TS]

  the last topic and yeah it's too late to [TS]

  start a new big topic right now [TS]

  so you know this is not a huge topic [TS]

  this is not a huge deal [TS]

  just like the home pod ring not a huge [TS]

  deal but just kind of an embarrassing [TS]

  story that like the the interesting and [TS]

  worrisome part about it is not the [TS]

  actual thing that is happening but that [TS]

  it seems to indicate a pretty [TS]

  substantial failure in process along the [TS]

  way like why didn't they foresee this [TS]

  this is not a new problem everyone who's [TS]

  ever designed or [TS]

  worked in glass office buildings [TS]

  probably knows about this problem so why [TS]

  didn't they accommodate for it here but [TS]

  it looks so nice that's that's really [TS]

  part of it like so every every building [TS]

  has bugs it's not like a software thing [TS]

  but every building especially new [TS]

  buildings large complexes they have bugs [TS]

  whether it's like a particular way that [TS]

  it was constructed that wears out sooner [TS]

  than you thought or people walk in a [TS]

  path that you didn't expect and so you [TS]

  got to move some things around or sight [TS]

  lines that you didn't expect to be a [TS]

  problem when the Sun is at a particular [TS]

  angle and reflects off this particular [TS]

  thing goes into this person's eyes or [TS]

  whatever like but buildings have bugs [TS]

  and so you weren't you expect there's [TS]

  gonna be stuff like that in every [TS]

  building but as you said mark out like [TS]

  for the glass stuff it's not an [TS]

  unforeseen thing and it's not an [TS]

  emergent property of a complex system [TS]

  it's they varied overly picked materials [TS]

  and they didn't just use them a little [TS]

  bit like this is a glass heavy building [TS]

  tremendously glass I feel like it sounds [TS]

  like the Bloomberg thing was it's not [TS]

  like you're just using it as an [TS]

  interface element along with everything [TS]

  else it's very heavily used like the [TS]

  largest pieces of glass in the world are [TS]

  here and it does look really good and [TS]

  like I was tempted to say this is [TS]

  another example of like you know form [TS]

  over function where if I think when we [TS]

  talked about this building for I said I [TS]

  didn't have confidence that Johnny I've [TS]

  really understood what it took to make a [TS]

  functional building although I knew he [TS]

  would make a beautiful one and this [TS]

  might call into that category but I [TS]

  think there is actually a functional [TS]

  aspect to all this glass which is part [TS]

  of the part of the utility of the [TS]

  building is not just you know can you [TS]

  find all the places you want to go very [TS]

  well is there room for everything is the [TS]

  air circulate well all those sort of [TS]

  like what makes good user nice on a [TS]

  building but aesthetics actually are [TS]

  part of like any product but perhaps [TS]

  even more so for a building allowing a [TS]

  natural light in being inspired by the [TS]

  views feeling like you're you know [TS]

  inside indoors outdoors with like a [TS]

  complete glass thing from floor to [TS]

  ceiling gives a different feeling than [TS]

  it would if it was just a window in a [TS]

  wall right so there is I think a [TS]

  functional aspect to all of this glass [TS]

  and unfortunately a lot of the solutions [TS]

  that fix this problem like the stickers [TS]

  at eye level or whatever fly in the face [TS]

  of all the advantages that you're [TS]

  getting you [TS]

  don't feel like you're you're outdoors [TS]

  indoors type of thing when your [TS]

  beautiful wall of glass is marred by a [TS]

  bunch of Apple stickers Johnny I would [TS]

  have a heart attack if you're just a [TS]

  bunch of apple stickers all of these [TS]

  things well that's what they're doing in [TS]

  some cases is like putting you know tape [TS]

  or anything else like it's just it's [TS]

  gaudy it breaks up the appearance that [TS]

  you want it kills the illusion of [TS]

  transparency of the glass it makes [TS]

  everything uglier and worse like I was [TS]

  thinking they do it like they do in the [TS]

  diving pool in the Olympics where they [TS]

  have a constant spray of water agitating [TS]

  the surface so you can see where the [TS]

  surface of the water is you know for the [TS]

  diver as they come down they just [TS]

  something should have constant sprays of [TS]

  water onto the onto the walls and to do [TS]

  some one of those glass waterfall [TS]

  effects without kind of ruined rim the [TS]

  aesthetic as well so I don't know what [TS]

  the solution this is because I kind of [TS]

  understand that the glass stuff is not [TS]

  just an aesthetic so the building looks [TS]

  pretty I really do believe it probably [TS]

  enhances the experience of being in the [TS]

  building in an important way right for [TS]

  the people in the building not the [TS]

  people outside looking at it but I mean [TS]

  maybe there was a little bit of wishful [TS]

  thinking in terms of all right so we [TS]

  know this is a problem we know people [TS]

  run into glass a lot but after a [TS]

  breaking-in period eventually people [TS]

  will develop the flint reflexes or [TS]

  something like people people will will [TS]

  adjust their daily paths to not do this [TS]

  it'll become more aware or this door the [TS]

  people keep running into will make sure [TS]

  we keep it open 24 hours a day to make [TS]

  sure it's not a factor anymore I think [TS]

  they might have been optimistic about [TS]

  how much people will eventually adjust [TS]

  to it and we'll see maybe maybe they [TS]

  don't know you know what they should do [TS]

  when you first walk into the building [TS]

  just slide it a little splash screen [TS]

  tells people hey just so you know [TS]

  there's glass everywhere watch out walk [TS]

  with your hands straight out in front of [TS]

  you yeah so and probably know maybe they [TS]

  will get used to it like this is this is [TS]

  the growing pains of this building its [TS]

  early days maybe people will eventually [TS]

  get used to it [TS]

  but if they don't the solution I think [TS]

  if you want to keep the glasses I think [TS]

  what you have to do is change the non [TS]

  glass parts of the building to [TS]

  essentially herd people to the openings [TS]

  right [TS]

  so you want you want the building to [TS]

  guide you like it should be less work to [TS]

  just go when the building wants you to [TS]

  go and you should find yourself coming [TS]

  to the place where the door is and the [TS]

  door hopefully will have a handle in it [TS]

  so you see that yes this is the place [TS]

  where the door is right you want like [TS]

  the idea of just having a giant [TS]

  expansive glass that sometime is open [TS]

  and sometimes is closed that's like [TS]

  three football fields wide like the [TS]

  cafeteria doors strikes me as a bad idea [TS]

  because there's no hurting of anybody [TS]

  and when the door is closed it looks [TS]

  just like it's open like you know so I [TS]

  think if you want to keep the glass you [TS]

  have to you have to make the building [TS]

  accommodate to us and maybe that's [TS]

  exactly what they've been trying to do [TS]

  everywhere and they just missed a couple [TS]

  spots in that case they just ad need to [TS]

  like rearrange the furniture and put a [TS]

  different pattern on the floor and do [TS]

  all those of the tricks that sort of [TS]

  subtly guide you to where you where the [TS]

  building wants you to go and flow with [TS]

  the traffic especially with large groups [TS]

  of people like it's easy for like one or [TS]

  two people on a house to guide people [TS]

  around but in a giant campus you have to [TS]

  have large apertures to accommodate you [TS]

  know hundreds of thousands of people [TS]

  going to and from lunch or whatever and [TS]

  that is the that's that's the challenge [TS]

  they face I really really hope the [TS]

  eventual solution is not to put a bunch [TS]

  of bloomberg stickers and I love all [TS]

  residents will be weird dead lumpur [TS]

  stickers on Apple's campus because that [TS]

  is just they're just designed failure on [TS]

  all levels it's aesthetically gross and [TS]

  it just it ruins all the benefits that [TS]

  you're supposedly getting from the glass [TS]

  so here's how you do this hold the glass [TS]

  at exactly a 78 degree angle get a can [TS]

  of compressed air turn the can upside [TS]

  down like and spread the constant spray [TS]

  of water just a constant spray of [TS]

  compressed air going on the glass that [TS]

  fogs it up and lets you see all of them [TS]

  or they can do what they do then the ski [TS]

  jumps where they put pine boughs and [TS]

  everything they just you ever see them [TS]

  where they go to the back flips off the [TS]

  ski jump at the Olympics they don't want [TS]

  the slope that they land on to be [TS]

  completely wiped is that I can't again [TS]

  they can't do depth perception to see [TS]

  where it is when they flip to the air so [TS]

  they put like dirt and and other [TS]

  dark-colored junk all over it at least [TS]

  that would be natural it's just just a [TS]

  bunch of pine needles stuck to the [TS]

  windows what if they use like like kind [TS]

  of like fiber-optic style like light [TS]

  guide lighting in the glass panes so [TS]

  that all the panes of glass can eat like [TS]

  each department can pick a different [TS]

  like neon color that all their glass [TS]

  will be lit with all right I got it [TS]

  perfectly not that we're gonna [TS]

  transition to accidental neutral quite [TS]

  at this point but they need driver aids [TS]

  right so if you are approaching if you [TS]

  are approaching a glass wall to speed [TS]

  they feel a collision is imminent the [TS]

  glass wall should change to like in one [TS]

  of those transparent LCD screens and say [TS]

  warning stop wall is in front of you [TS]

  goodness so there's some transcripts on [TS]

  the San Francisco Chronicle website [TS]

  dispatcher tell me exactly what happened [TS]

  patient I walked into a glass door in [TS]

  the first floor of Apple Park when I was [TS]

  trying to go outside which was very [TS]

  silly [TS]

  dispatcher you keep breaking up you [TS]

  walked through a glass door patient I [TS]

  didn't walk through a glass door I [TS]

  walked into a glass door yeah speaking [TS]

  of those big glass doors like the I [TS]

  guess the cafeteria doors though forever [TS]

  like the the the eating place I'm sure [TS]

  they don't call it a cafeteria because [TS]

  that's not fancy enough but like has [TS]

  like what four story or three story high [TS]

  glass doors that way some astronomical [TS]

  amount right and they they slide open [TS]

  like barn doors and they're just huge [TS]

  expanses of glass and I was thinking [TS]

  about this about a month ago looking at [TS]

  the pictures of really you know the for [TS]

  the final building being constructed now [TS]

  I'm sure this building have me haven't [TS]

  been constructing California has all [TS]

  sorts of like earthquake readiness stuff [TS]

  built into it because surely the codes [TS]

  require that and surely Apple would do [TS]

  that right and they consider the [TS]

  possibility that these doors cause [TS]

  earthquakes when they open they're very [TS]

  simple it's very it's very well [TS]

  lubricated mechanism it's almost [TS]

  noiseless it's beautiful but and I know [TS]

  glass bends right but these are very [TS]

  large very heavy pieces of glass and [TS]

  probably the last place I would want to [TS]

  be during an earthquake is near one of [TS]

  these giant sheets of glass because I [TS]

  don't want a chunk of glass falling from [TS]

  four stories up onto my head to run a [TS]

  house budgets like safety grass and [TS]

  breaks into small pieces or just from [TS]

  the sheer weight like forget about [TS]

  sharpness pretended to stay completely [TS]

  dull because it's safety glass and [TS]

  breaks into small pieces it's like a [TS]

  clear Rock landing on your head from [TS]

  four stories up which i think is a you [TS]

  know maybe also problem in skyscrapers [TS]

  were in you're on the outside of them [TS]

  like the glass shatters or whatever and [TS]

  falls down under the street and kills [TS]

  people but it just I would love to know [TS]

  exactly what the earthquake mitigation [TS]

  techniques were to make it safe to have [TS]

  four stories of like inch-and-a-half [TS]

  nate thick glass like 17 tons of it just [TS]

  sitting where people could be right next [TS]

  to it people could literally be touching [TS]

  it or in the process of walking to it at [TS]

  the time it starts to wobble and parts [TS]

  of it crack off and fall down to the [TS]

  ground so seems a little bit scary to me [TS]

  we respond to this week by betterment [TS]

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  betterment comm slash ATP that's [TS]

  betterment comm slash ATP thank you to [TS]

  Behrman for sponsoring our show [TS]

  so let's do some ask ATP vamsee writes [TS]

  they would apparently like to know all [TS]

  sorts of rules protocol and strategies [TS]

  with regard to windowing in our cars so [TS]

  first how do you use the windows in your [TS]

  car always closed always open I will [TS]

  start and we'll do a round robin I tend [TS]

  to leave the windows and the doors [TS]

  closed almost always unless it is a [TS]

  particularly nice day in which case they [TS]

  will usually be opened all the way it is [TS]

  very rare that I have anything but a [TS]

  binary treatment of my windows one [TS]

  example of when they are cracked however [TS]

  which is very rare is if I have any sort [TS]

  of food in the car in which case I will [TS]

  try to ventilate the outside air by [TS]

  cracking the windows and we will get to [TS]

  Sun roofs in a Sun in a moment so John [TS]

  how do you use the windows in your car [TS]

  does your car have a sunroof I don't [TS]

  recall no can't because I've had to [TS]

  remember that well I thought I knew you [TS]

  preferred not I couldn't remember if it [TS]

  did or not nope ok so with your windows [TS]

  windows I'm almost always an always [TS]

  closed person mostly for two reasons one [TS]

  yes the hair mussing because it is a [TS]

  real thing like if I have my windows [TS]

  open and I show up at work my hair will [TS]

  be crazy yep and to most of the cars [TS]

  that I've owned have required a complex [TS]

  series of baffles to not have weird [TS]

  thrumming noises you got to have [TS]

  alternative windows open one on one side [TS]

  one on the other front end stuff like [TS]

  that it doesn't make for a pleasing [TS]

  auditory environment even if I don't [TS]

  care about my hair so I'm an all clothes [TS]

  person most of the time [TS]

  all right Marco most of the time they're [TS]

  closed because most of the time the [TS]

  temperature outside is not pleasant in [TS]

  one direction or the other [TS]

  but when the temperature outside is [TS]

  pleasant and if I'm if I'm at low speeds [TS]

  like around town like not on the highway [TS]

  I'll open a window here and there [TS]

  sometimes I will just crack the window [TS]

  to feel the cool air cleanse my every [TS]

  pore as I pour my poor heart out but [TS]

  usually I will just open one either all [TS]

  the way or not at all [TS]

  I don't know that song I didn't [TS]

  reference KZ no I did not I could tell [TS]

  it was a reference I had no idea what it [TS]

  was was it is it fish can't be Fisher's [TS]

  too many words No [TS]

  all right and the follow-up of course is [TS]

  how to use the sunroof and then vamsee [TS]

  adds this I really don't get just got a [TS]

  car with one Australian summers boiling [TS]

  so I haven't had a chance to open it [TS]

  again I will start and we'll do another [TS]

  round robin I love my sunroof I will [TS]

  open it in truly absurd well maybe not [TS]

  absurd but in temperatures where I [TS]

  probably shouldn't have a ton sunroof [TS]

  open so as soon as it hits about 50 [TS]

  degrees Fahrenheit and I don't care what [TS]

  that isn't Celsius because Celsius is [TS]

  stupid for ambient air temperature don't [TS]

  at me whatever 50 degrees is in stupid [TS]

  units I will start opening my sunroof [TS]

  from time to time and it will be open [TS]

  pretty much until it hits about 80 [TS]

  degrees and that's about when I decide [TS]

  that air conditioning is absolutely [TS]

  required and there's no other way about [TS]

  it Marco let's start with you this time [TS]

  I use the sunroof during the winter a [TS]

  lot during spring and fall sometimes and [TS]

  during summer not at all because I [TS]

  believe I previously mentioned I don't [TS]

  have that much hair and I get a head [TS]

  burn really easily if it gets a lot of [TS]

  Sun I keep a hat in my car for mainly [TS]

  for the purpose of being able to use my [TS]

  sunroof but in the summertime sometimes [TS]

  I just don't want to have the liability [TS]

  of the hat blowing off and so I I get a [TS]

  lot of sunroof use in the cooler [TS]

  temperatures when when sunburn is less [TS]

  likely or less of a bless of a concern [TS]

  one of the favorite one of my favorite [TS]

  things to do with the sunroof is to open [TS]

  it during the winter because you could [TS]

  have the heat on in the car but have the [TS]

  sunroof partially or totally open so [TS]

  much for saving the environment am i [TS]

  right compared to what your car is [TS]

  burning compared to what my car is [TS]

  burning I think so I'm turning on the [TS]

  heat and then opening the sunroof well [TS]

  and so and you can also do things like [TS]

  you know just use like the heated seat [TS]

  but not use the air heating so you are [TS]

  kept warm but you have fresh air so [TS]

  there's lots of options of combining the [TS]

  sunroof with heat or you know the lack [TS]

  of heat in the car but is a very [TS]

  pleasant thing to have fresh air coming [TS]

  in but to not be freezing your butt off [TS]

  in the winter that to me is the best [TS]

  reason to have a sunroof is is the use [TS]

  of it in the wintertime I will say that [TS]

  a that a good solid floor he [TS]

  with the with the ventilated roof is a [TS]

  nice thing I don't usually do that it's [TS]

  not something I enjoy often but you know [TS]

  having the heat coming up from the floor [TS]

  rising up and then escaping out the [TS]

  sunroof is actually quite pleasant John [TS]

  if you had a sunroof hypothetically do [TS]

  you ever fancy a time that you would use [TS]

  it my parents cars have had them so I've [TS]

  had them enough to know whether I use [TS]

  them and basically I treated like a [TS]

  window in general no I don't want it [TS]

  open for the same reasons hair mussing [TS]

  and throwing noises I don't and now that [TS]

  my hair is thinning on top I'd probably [TS]

  have the same problem with with head [TS]

  burn so I think I would probably not use [TS]

  it even if I had it head burn is not fun [TS]

  as someone who is far and away the [TS]

  fussiest about his hair I can tell you [TS]

  that I can rock the sunroof reasonably [TS]

  frequently without worrying about my [TS]

  hair getting too messed up whereas that [TS]

  is not typically true with the side [TS]

  windows if I open them more than just a [TS]

  crack [TS]

  you got more product in your hair than I [TS]

  do though oh it's pretty much welded at [TS]

  this point there's so much junk in there [TS]

  you know for if anybody out there feels [TS]

  bad for me that I don't have good hair [TS]

  just know that I don't have to worry [TS]

  about any of that BS like my hair cannot [TS]

  be messed up it's glorious I can I can [TS]

  leave all the windows down and this [TS]

  hundred of open and drive on the highway [TS]

  and yet just tons of wind to the point [TS]

  where like if I have like a loose tissue [TS]

  in the back of my car it might blow out [TS]

  the window so I have to like make sure I [TS]

  like everything is like anchored down in [TS]

  the vehicle but I can I can drive in [TS]

  pure wind like that which is awesome in [TS]

  the summertime when you drive a nice to [TS]

  the beach by the way and it's wonderful [TS]

  and I guess where I'm going and my hair [TS]

  isn't messed up because it can't be it's [TS]

  amazing I go to the shower and it's dry [TS]

  like it's done I just walk out of the [TS]

  bathroom it's wonderful like so yeah [TS]

  don't feel bad for me as these two were [TS]

  talking about comparing the amount of [TS]

  product in their hair and and how they [TS]

  can't enjoy wind movement because it [TS]

  might mess up their hair that's only for [TS]

  going to work I'm glad you broke the [TS]

  beach Beach is the one time where I do [TS]

  open windows and I probably [TS]

  a sunroof just to smell the beach air [TS]

  and because no one should ever care [TS]

  where the hair looks like when they're [TS]

  going to or from the beach and I don't [TS]

  fair enough [TS]

  and finally when do you turn your [TS]

  recirculation on or recirculating the [TS]

  the air conditioning I don't typically [TS]

  mess with this unless there is an odor [TS]

  or I'm in a hurry to get the the car [TS]

  either colder or warmer my car does have [TS]

  an automatic recirculation feature I [TS]

  have no idea if that's like a complete [TS]

  placebo or if it actually does you know [TS]

  flip recirculation on and off and so [TS]

  typically I just leave that on but in in [TS]

  Prior cars I would only ever really turn [TS]

  recirculation on if I was in a real big [TS]

  hurry to reach the temperature I wanted [TS]

  John I think it's your turn now I am a [TS]

  manual control even though my car has [TS]

  automatic climate control I have manual [TS]

  control or I'm a micro manager of [TS]

  climate controls and recirculation [TS]

  different i preemptively turn it on when [TS]

  I know I'm going to be coming to a stop [TS]

  behind a smoker because smokers are [TS]

  disgusting and flickers dependent other [TS]

  windows which they leave cracked open so [TS]

  we're the entire world can enjoy their [TS]

  stupid smoke and then they flick the [TS]

  cigarette that their have done without [TS]

  the window to I put three Sark on again [TS]

  preemptively when I'm you know gonna be [TS]

  stopped behind a big truck that's [TS]

  spewing its stinky exhaust basically I [TS]

  mean I know there's going to be an order [TS]

  from the outside I turned on and the the [TS]

  final time that I do it is yeah in the [TS]

  summer when I want to get the car cooler [TS]

  faster but only after I allow enough [TS]

  fresh air in so the inside and outside [TS]

  temperatures are equalized and in the [TS]

  winter when my cars when my cars pour [TS]

  heating system I can't keep up can't [TS]

  like literally can't make the car warm [TS]

  enough because it is so freakin cold [TS]

  that the air coming out of the vents [TS]

  gets appreciably warmer when I put [TS]

  recirc on like in the really cold spell [TS]

  that we have are it's like below zero [TS]

  for several days in a row the car will [TS]

  eventually warm up and be comfortable [TS]

  enough but if you're on a shortness [TS]

  drive where you don't have time to do [TS]

  that you just got to put on research [TS]

  just to get it just for me to not to be [TS]

  freezing my boat I don't have heated [TS]

  seats I think that would really help me [TS]

  get around with it but that's that's [TS]

  when I do it [TS]

  Wow [TS]

  I used to manually manage recirculation [TS]

  I don't anymore because modern nice cars [TS]

  not only do it for you and and their [TS]

  defaults of when to use it versus when [TS]

  not to seem pretty good but also like [TS]

  the smoker issue I I too like one way to [TS]

  really make me very angry is to make me [TS]

  smell cigarette smoke for some reason [TS]

  and but the good thing is about like and [TS]

  I don't know if it's a Tesla and BMW [TS]

  thing or whatever but like usually the [TS]

  the intake air filters seem to be so [TS]

  good on some of these cars now that I [TS]

  don't usually smell outside smells if my [TS]

  windows are up and my Sun roof is closed [TS]

  now occasionally I will still smell [TS]

  cigarette because my windows cracked or [TS]

  something but that's coming in through [TS]

  the window not the ventilation system so [TS]

  I almost never have any reason to [TS]

  manually adjust whether recirculation is [TS]

  on or off I just let the system handle [TS]

  it and it's fine [TS]

  Peter Gosling writes in there seems to [TS]

  be a lot of disappointment to slack Mac [TS]

  client justifiably so why not stick with [TS]

  IRC like the live show the native Mac [TS]

  IRC clients are joy to use and aren't [TS]

  half-baked like slack is so a little bit [TS]

  of background slack is written using [TS]

  electron which does not by necessity [TS]

  means it's a pile of mean that it's a [TS]

  pile of garbage but it turns out it is [TS]

  in fact a pile of garbage but a little [TS]

  known fact about slack which I probably [TS]

  will not remember to put in the show [TS]

  notes and say you can actually access [TS]

  slack I chat rooms teams whatever the [TS]

  terminology is via IRC there's an IRC [TS]

  front-end to slack so you could use any [TS]

  IRC client in connect to slack and [TS]

  that's what Peters talking about where [TS]

  this falls down is a couple of things [TS]

  one Peter said the native Matt mac IRC [TS]

  clients are joy to use and I must not be [TS]

  using the ones that he's using I use [TS]

  colloquy which is okay whatever Peters [TS]

  using must be much better than that yeah [TS]

  I got agree on that by the way like I IV [TS]

  I used colloquy I've also used textual [TS]

  and there's one more if use ones before [TS]

  I forget what it is and I can only [TS]

  describe any of them as okay yeah but [TS]

  anyway so you can use IRC to get to [TS]

  slack and the reason that I don't do [TS]

  this well there's a couple of reasons [TS]

  but mostly the reason the the biggest [TS]

  reason I don't do this is because one of [TS]

  the better things about slack and one of [TS]

  the reasons why I do understand [TS]

  and if I don't love the fact that they [TS]

  use electron is that so much of their so [TS]

  much of the things you put into a slack [TS]

  chat will like Auto expands so think [TS]

  about what's going on with iMessage when [TS]

  you put a tweet in or a link to a [TS]

  website it will try to grab like a hero [TS]

  image or if there's a tweet with an [TS]

  image it will grab the image and it will [TS]

  put it right in line in that iMessage [TS]

  conversation will slack does the same [TS]

  thing but it does it for all sorts of [TS]

  different data and it's really really [TS]

  nice I mean that genuinely and that I [TS]

  think I would really miss if I didn't [TS]

  have that and so like another example of [TS]

  that is say if somebody pastes in an [TS]

  animated gif or a URL to an animated gif [TS]

  I would want to see that inline like [TS]

  part of what makes slack fun is that [TS]

  kind of shucking and jiving back and [TS]

  forth with gifts and things like that [TS]

  and I think I would miss out on that if [TS]

  it was just in a traditional IRC client [TS]

  but it is a fair point [TS]

  and maybe I should try it just to see [TS]

  but I don't know that's that's my two [TS]

  cents do you guys have anything to add [TS]

  about that so I think in this contest [TS]

  between various applications let you [TS]

  type words to other people even if their [TS]

  various friends to slack in the case of [TS]

  the IRC gateway to slack or whatever [TS]

  I think the slack application on the Mac [TS]

  won fair and square based on its [TS]

  features and ease of use that's what it [TS]

  comes down to like yes IRC is existed [TS]

  forever and yes lots of IRC clients are [TS]

  good but slack offered a combination of [TS]

  functionality and application that gives [TS]

  you a front-end for that functionality [TS]

  that is simply more attractive to most [TS]

  people than all of the alternatives like [TS]

  it's not like slack one accidentally or [TS]

  because it was bundled as part of some [TS]

  monopolistic thing and you couldn't help [TS]

  but have slack forced down our throat [TS]

  slack has lots of warts but it has the [TS]

  right balance of stuff it is a fun [TS]

  interesting easy to use application that [TS]

  provides I think more fun and more [TS]

  features focused on exactly what it does [TS]

  in an IRC client and enough speed and [TS]

  functionality that we all you know grit [TS]

  our teeth and deal with the electron [TS]

  weirdness and everything like this [TS]

  because on balance it is better than all [TS]

  those things otherwise we would still [TS]

  all be using those things I was in tons [TS]

  of IRC channels before slack claimed [TS]

  and most of them have been replaced by [TS]

  slack because that's what more people [TS]

  want to use I can understand being in a [TS]

  situation where it's like yeah but I [TS]

  like the IRC you better sure but I think [TS]

  most people did not like IRC better or [TS]

  didn't like IRC at all which is why [TS]

  slack is as successful as it is so I [TS]

  think the reason we don't use it as [TS]

  because lack is better in general one [TS]

  Pablo Rodriguez writes in John I saw [TS]

  your tweet about the halting problem I [TS]

  would like to hear how you would explain [TS]

  it so the context this was just a couple [TS]

  of days ago and John jump in and cut me [TS]

  off whenever you're ready quote why is [TS]

  this program taking so long to run and [TS]

  quote big milestone today my son's first [TS]

  infinite loop then he asked why the [TS]

  programming courseware website he's [TS]

  using can't just tell him there's an [TS]

  infinite loop instead of trying to run [TS]

  the program as written I introduced him [TS]

  to the halting problem but he wasn't [TS]

  impressed so do you want to fill in any [TS]

  other context or just jump into the what [TS]

  is the halting problem so the context [TS]

  here is that I tried to show my kids [TS]

  both of my kids programming it very [TS]

  early ages say if you're interested this [TS]

  is the thing I can show you how to do [TS]

  but of course me being a father they [TS]

  don't want to have anything to do it and [TS]

  I know how to do so fine or whatever so [TS]

  I just laid off like they were into [TS]

  whatever they're into but my son is in [TS]

  eighth grade now and he's looking to [TS]

  take he wants to take a computer science [TS]

  course in ninth grade which is awesome [TS]

  that it's even offered I didn't have any [TS]

  computer science courses in my high [TS]

  school yes they had computers but they [TS]

  were Apple twos but anyway he's [TS]

  interested in taking that maybe just [TS]

  because his friends are interested it I [TS]

  can't tell if he's really interested in [TS]

  it but he's trying to get into an [TS]

  advanced level computer science class [TS]

  and he wants to have some experience so [TS]

  he's going through this online course or [TS]

  a thing with his friends right this is [TS]

  all is all him right but I'm offering to [TS]

  help him with it so that's why he's [TS]

  doing any kind of programming stuff at [TS]

  all and it's pretty late in the game and [TS]

  the grand scheme of things he's got like [TS]

  five year-olds who are writing iOS apps [TS]

  and a lot of on stage at Apple things [TS]

  and stuff like that and he's you know [TS]

  he's not a precocious programmer but [TS]

  he's getting into it and so I'm trying [TS]

  to help them you know as laid-back way [TS]

  as possible because you don't help too [TS]

  much you know because like becomes [TS]

  uncool if dad's into it whatever and he [TS]

  did write an infinite loop and he did it [TS]

  asked me like the course where it's like [TS]

  running his program for it and like it [TS]

  just was like a spinner on the web babe [TS]

  and he's like why is it taking so long [TS]

  he they write an infant [TS]

  I feel like it really is a milestone [TS]

  like the first time you do that and then [TS]

  don't understand what the hell's going [TS]

  on in your program specifically he was [TS]

  he was iterating over an array and in [TS]

  inside the loop he was adding I am to [TS]

  the end of the array which is a pretty [TS]

  fun way to do your first infinite loop [TS]

  as opposed to just like forgetting to [TS]

  check for termination condition he was [TS]

  iterating over listed he kept growing at [TS]

  the same pace he was iterating over it [TS]

  so that was fun [TS]

  apologies to the courseware website for [TS]

  the for the infinite loop bomb my son [TS]

  invoked on you as he opened up tab after [TS]

  tab and tried to run the same program it [TS]

  wasn't he didn't do a fork bomb but he's [TS]

  not he's not up at that process level [TS]

  yet so I did try to say actually there's [TS]

  a general problem about this the halting [TS]

  problem and to finally get to answer the [TS]

  specific question how would you go about [TS]

  explaining it part of the knowledge and [TS]

  wisdom I'm trying to impart on him as [TS]

  part of this is not the specifics of [TS]

  whatever he's doing about programming [TS]

  which I figure will come on his own but [TS]

  how do you how do you how do programmers [TS]

  do this how do you figure stuff out and [TS]

  early on I want to show them if you have [TS]

  a question about how something works the [TS]

  magic of the Internet you know after me [TS]

  saying you know up hill both ways how I [TS]

  had to do it in my day so on and so [TS]

  forth [TS]

  you can just type your question into [TS]

  Google and every like a Stack Overflow [TS]

  answer like you know how to concatenate [TS]

  strings you know in Python or whatever [TS]

  like the answer is right there you don't [TS]

  have to ask me you don't have to wonder [TS]

  just type it into Google search box so [TS]

  for the halting problem rather than me [TS]

  trying to explain this is what the [TS]

  halting problem is based on like my [TS]

  memory of it from school you know or [TS]

  just like even just in broad strokes [TS]

  just go to the Wikipedia page for the [TS]

  halting problem and there's like a [TS]

  paragraph at the top it does a pretty [TS]

  good job of explaining more or less what [TS]

  the halting problem is in links to [TS]

  examples and so on and so forth but the [TS]

  idea is that you shouldn't ask your dad [TS]

  or ask someone next to you to explain [TS]

  what the halting problem is you are [TS]

  empowered because you have the whole [TS]

  internet at your fingertips to find out [TS]

  the answer to this question quickly and [TS]

  in a much more authoritative way than me [TS]

  trying to you know recite it from memory [TS]

  because if I was gonna recite it from [TS]

  memory if I was gonna talk about the [TS]

  halting problem on this show I almost [TS]

  did it when I saw his question I was [TS]

  like oh I should go to the Wikipedia [TS]

  page and and paste the first bit but no [TS]

  like the lesson is you this is one of [TS]

  those things that you don't have to [TS]

  memorize and even if you know it [TS]

  backwards and forwards it's difficult [TS]

  sometimes to explain something that you [TS]

  no if you haven't like taught a course [TS]

  into five or six times so use the [TS]

  Internet [TS]

  use the tools that are available to you [TS]

  don't rely on other people to explain [TS]

  things I haven't yet explained to him [TS]

  about it Wikipedia being a tertiary [TS]

  source a little crap but here we go one [TS]

  step at a time [TS]

  there's only so much dad that kids can [TS]

  take in one dose all right thanks to our [TS]

  sponsors this week [TS]

  and we'll see you next week now the show [TS]

  is over to be y el asesor that's Casey [TS]

  less and a are Co AR m and T Marco [TS]

  Arment [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  all right so last week we what was the [TS]

  the Genesis the question I should have [TS]

  left in the show notes but we were [TS]

  talking about like cars and things and [TS]

  rolling double zero in the chat [TS]

  suggested something that hopefully you [TS]

  guys have at least put two minutes of [TS]

  thought into which I know Marko hasn't [TS]

  and John maybe has oh no I put exactly [TS]

  two minutes of thought into it alright [TS]

  well that works for me what car would [TS]

  you pick for your other hosts now I [TS]

  didn't ask [TS]

  rollin 0-0 nor did I clarify what do you [TS]

  mean by that is it the car you think [TS]

  they would enjoy the most is it the car [TS]

  you would most like to see them in is it [TS]

  the car that you would get to just troll [TS]

  them and I didn't want to give you guys [TS]

  any sort of direction about any of this [TS]

  so I have answered the question in my [TS]

  own way but I don't have to go first [TS]

  this time since I was very aggressively [TS]

  first during ask ATP so which one of you [TS]

  would like to volunteer to tell each of [TS]

  us what cars we should be driving I'll [TS]

  do it if you want all right Marko feel [TS]

  free all right this is fairly easy for [TS]

  Casey you would have the new m3 period [TS]

  well what's that your criteria is what [TS]

  car would I most like to drive I guess [TS]

  yeah my criteria basically I mean if [TS]

  we're assuming that like you know I [TS]

  don't have to worry about how much these [TS]

  cars cost they're just being paid for [TS]

  somehow and that I guess get to decide [TS]

  which car you have then my rationale [TS]

  here is which car would you be most [TS]

  happy with you know what is the car that [TS]

  you should have and so I think it's the [TS]

  m3 done and John a little bit harder I I [TS]

  was kind of thinking maybe the m5 or if [TS]

  he doesn't want to go necessary that [TS]

  large because I know I know like your [TS]

  parking situations a little bit tight [TS]

  over there so I figured maybe you might [TS]

  also go with something in the 3-series [TS]

  range maybe your dad's old 3-series that [TS]

  you like but like a faster one [TS]

  like like it maybe like the 335 of that [TS]

  generation maybe something like that but [TS]

  probably just I think John I think my [TS]

  answer is actually gonna be just the new [TS]

  m5 so new m3 4kc new m5 for John why for [TS]

  me I understand your reasoning for KC [TS]

  what's your reasoning for me like why [TS]

  are you even picking from BMWs for me [TS]

  well I know you wouldn't actually enjoy [TS]

  owning a Ferrari I know that you like [TS]

  Mercedes but I'm too young to know how [TS]

  to select one I went with the brand that [TS]

  I know how to use and how to pick from [TS]

  that gives you what you want which is [TS]

  similar to eylem which is a nice big [TS]

  faster damn like you like those and I [TS]

  know you're not gonna get see here's the [TS]

  problem though I know you like stick a [TS]

  lot and that can't you can't have that [TS]

  in stick so maybe I try to find you an [TS]

  f10 generation in a stick which they [TS]

  probably made like three of those total [TS]

  but maybe that's the right answer [TS]

  people didn't like those those stick [TS]

  shifts they said that the manual was not [TS]

  very good in that car [TS]

  yeah see this it's it's picking for you [TS]

  is very challenging picking for case is [TS]

  easy because I know what he wants it so [TS]

  it's easy picking for you is is harder [TS]

  but you know I don't think Mercedes [TS]

  makes any sticks either that you would [TS]

  want but I don't know no yeah I don't [TS]

  know that but I think so I'm gonna stand [TS]

  by my answer of the new m5 but with some [TS]

  reservations I was proud of KC for [TS]

  recognizing what a terrible question [TS]

  this is saying but I don't care and I'm [TS]

  not gonna clarify so let's just all [TS]

  interpret the question or however that [TS]

  we want this question is terrible [TS]

  because it just has no parameters [TS]

  whatsoever oh just to have a little fun [TS]

  it's not useful anyway so if I had to [TS]

  pick first I'd have to pick the how to [TS]

  interpret this question but I'd say how [TS]

  did you interpret the question I'm [TS]

  mostly interpreting as a car I think [TS]

  that you would enjoy that you wouldn't [TS]

  buy for yourself it's like the [TS]

  gift-giving type thing [TS]

  sure okay I like that interpret um for [TS]

  Casey I think I would go with a caiman [TS]

  slash Boxster whichever one comes with [TS]

  the sunroof or and or convertible 718 [TS]

  whatever the hell it's called now or I [TS]

  would actually maybe go with it with the [TS]

  previous generation that's what [TS]

  naturally aspirated because I think you [TS]

  would really enjoy a stick-shift caiman [TS]

  because you get that open-air driving [TS]

  experience I think it would be a more [TS]

  fun dynamic driving experience than all [TS]

  of your like regular car cars and it's [TS]

  just an all-around great car like not [TS]

  super - super fast not too super loud [TS]

  not as small and wimpy as a Miata which [TS]

  I think you would also enjoy by the way [TS]

  I thought I would [TS]

  it's like it's like the big boy Miata so [TS]

  I would I would go with a caiman [TS]

  I like that choice I drove I probably [TS]

  told the story maybe on neutral I drove [TS]

  a Boxster S early on in the life time of [TS]

  the Boxster's this was circa 2005 maybe [TS]

  2006 and I think the Box had only been [TS]

  out for a couple of years at that point [TS]

  I might have these dates wrong but you [TS]

  get the idea [TS]

  and I got in that car expecting to hate [TS]

  it oh it's a you know poor man's 911 [TS]

  it's just garbage this is gonna be crap [TS]

  and I loved it I couldn't believe how [TS]

  much I loved it and that was you know [TS]

  ten plus years ago so I can only imagine [TS]

  I came in or you know whatever the new [TS]

  Boxster came in like the epic a - the [TS]

  the natural have spread one right before [TS]

  they change to 718 it's just an amazing [TS]

  all-around balance it's fun a not too [TS]

  ridiculous car and you wouldn't buy it [TS]

  for yourself because you're like oh I [TS]

  gotta have a car that can put car seat [TS]

  in it oh yeah but I feel like with the [TS]

  giant shoebox thing that you've got [TS]

  going on for the whole family it would [TS]

  be a nice compromise of like a small [TS]

  small ish fun interesting fast enough to [TS]

  be cool open air kind of car nice and [TS]

  for Marco from Marco a little bit torn [TS]

  on this my my go-to would say and [TS]

  especially if I'm not allowed to pick [TS]

  from like future models because a lot of [TS]

  people coming out with cars that I think [TS]

  you would enjoy more than most of my [TS]

  picks because like everyone else all the [TS]

  other tests the competitors are coming [TS]

  but they're not here yet so I can't pick [TS]

  them agree mom [TS]

  so I would go I would probably shop on [TS]

  the Mercedes range because I truly [TS]

  continuous ADEs perhaps more than he [TS]

  enjoyed his m5 and so I probably go kind [TS]

  of like what I was I'd pick up myself in [TS]

  that preview show like it like an AMG [TS]

  II class if I could find the right [TS]

  balance of options and features to [TS]

  satisfy and if not believe it or not I [TS]

  would probably look at howdy there's [TS]

  another brand that Marco seems to have [TS]

  not wanted to really consider for [TS]

  himself but I think there are models in [TS]

  that range that he would really enjoy so [TS]

  those would be my picks a mid-sized [TS]

  Mercedes and if I can't find the right [TS]

  set of options in car in model year I [TS]

  would go Abby I think those are good [TS]

  choices Marco thoughts it's reasonable [TS]

  yeah I mean I haven't driven a Mercedes [TS]

  or an Audi in a long time [TS]

  when I have driven those cars I have [TS]

  been incredibly unimpressed with their [TS]

  media and navigation systems but you [TS]

  know I would give it a shot and the [TS]

  thing is wouldn't buy for yourself [TS]

  because you're all electric so basically [TS]

  all gas cars are now cars that Marco [TS]

  wouldn't buy for himself there yeah and [TS]

  and he had the 1m right so I feel like [TS]

  if that was a thing that he still wanted [TS]

  he would have gone back to I well but he [TS]

  hasn't so that's why I'm picking like [TS]

  regular normal size [TS]

  you know mid-sized cars I think those [TS]

  are good choices alright so I [TS]

  interpreted this as what do I think [TS]

  would be the best fit for my co-host and [TS]

  they may or may not buy this but my my [TS]

  rule was I couldn't just say like oh [TS]

  well Marco just wants another Tesla so I [TS]

  actually thought it was a little easier [TS]

  to pick for John because the options I [TS]

  came up with were a new mazda6 which I [TS]

  think he would quite like and is [TS]

  basically what you already have just a [TS]

  different manufacturer and and I've [TS]

  always thought the mazda6 is with there [TS]

  was one really crummy generation which [TS]

  is the generation after Aaron so this [TS]

  was like late 2000s early early 2010's [TS]

  which was not attractive at all but [TS]

  every other monster six has always been [TS]

  pretty attractive in my eyes and we [TS]

  loved Aaron's Mazda 6 who treated us so [TS]

  really really well and I think John you [TS]

  would like that but the other thing I [TS]

  was thinking about even though [TS]

  III really think hatchbacks are dumb [TS]

  sorry Europeans I think would love a GTI [TS]

  I really think you would love a GTI John [TS]

  I think that's definitely a car I would [TS]

  not buy for myself [TS]

  but do you like leaving aside the fact [TS]

  that hatchbacks are stupid do you think [TS]

  it with a stick I think the main thing [TS]

  the main thing I would enjoy about a GTI [TS]

  is the small ish size both in length and [TS]

  width but they're not as small as they [TS]

  used to be and they're definitely not as [TS]

  light as they used to be so I'm not sure [TS]

  I would get that much enjoyment out of [TS]

  it fair enough [TS]

  well those were my picks for for John [TS]

  and obviously the you know the the clear [TS]

  answer was the Ferrari which is like [TS]

  Marco said like that would be that would [TS]

  actually probably make John more unhappy [TS]

  than happy exactly if you again this is [TS]

  the question is so vague you could say a [TS]

  Ferrari and and a mansion with the [TS]

  heated garage to start in and say fair [TS]

  enough [TS]

  Marco I actually found harder because I [TS]

  really do think that the Tesla in in in [TS]

  the current iteration of Marco and Marco [TS]

  version 2017 or 2018 I think this is the [TS]

  the Model S is probably the perfect car [TS]

  for you Marco however if I couldn't [TS]

  choose that what would I choose and the [TS]

  obvious answer is a brand new m5 I think [TS]

  you would quite like that it gives you [TS]

  the all-wheel drive that you didn't have [TS]

  last for the last iteration it's just as [TS]

  quick as your Tesla or Daenerys makes no [TS]

  difference if not quicker but then I [TS]

  thought okay what are some more [TS]

  interesting choices and I thought to [TS]

  myself well what about a Prius Prime [TS]

  which is somewhat insulting and I don't [TS]

  mean it to be but my parents have a [TS]

  Prius Prime which I plug-in Prius and it [TS]

  is for what it is thinking like what [TS]

  would you if you're so bent on electric [TS]

  then then what would I mean I guess the [TS]

  Chevy Volt maybe but that seems like [TS]

  you're gonna get a much worse electric [TS]

  slash hybrid car than what he [TS]

  now that's a bad idea and the Prius [TS]

  Prime is that perhaps the ugliest car on [TS]

  the road today [TS]

  none of the Aztec is that function [TS]

  wasn't designed to be a punishment it [TS]

  was taking your insistence on having an [TS]

  electric car in mind but I don't think [TS]

  that's a terribly good answer either I [TS]

  was just throwing it out there very [TS]

  active conversation and then I thought [TS]

  to myself well let me think about Marco [TS]

  less as a driver but more is just like [TS]

  let me think about Marcos personality [TS]

  and disposition Marcos tends to obsess [TS]

  over things and I have this quality in [TS]

  me as well so I can recognize it in [TS]

  others you know tends to obsess over [TS]

  things and get just like really really [TS]

  deep into something and just I'm gonna [TS]

  explore it to the to the most extreme [TS]

  depths and I will explore every avenue [TS]

  of it I will know something front to [TS]

  back in and out left and right what kind [TS]

  of car would Marco be able to do that [TS]

  sort of thing with you would need a car [TS]

  that's like I don't know like an erector [TS]

  set or like a like a like a Lego set [TS]

  what color I know [TS]

  Marco should have a Wrangler because you [TS]

  could have 17 different tops you can [TS]

  have 17 different doors you can have a [TS]

  six-speed if you want it and you could [TS]

  go rock crawling in in the little hills [TS]

  and mountains of New York and you could [TS]

  go driving off-road up you know up in [TS]

  tips parents house you could do all [TS]

  those things you could have different [TS]

  winches it's imagine the fun you would [TS]

  have Marco figuring out the exact right [TS]

  winch you should put on the front of [TS]

  that car and getting the is [TS]

  extraordinarily expensive winch that [TS]

  weighs just 5 pounds left less than the [TS]

  one that's half the cost but you know [TS]

  you're saving that weight and you know [TS]

  it's better off that way imagine [TS]

  deciding exactly how big a gas can you [TS]

  want to put on the rear bumper for when [TS]

  you're going off-road do you want five [TS]

  five gallons oh no no I think I want six [TS]

  this is like your perfect car it is [TS]

  nothing but useless decisions that you [TS]

  can throw oodles of money at this car is [TS]

  made for you you're gonna get a Porsche [TS]

  with Doodles of money and useless [TS]

  the Wrangler is like didn't you hear the [TS]

  discussion of head burns you can get [TS]

  with a hardtop but I know you're not [TS]

  going to agree with this but I stand by [TS]

  this decision it this is what I get for [TS]

  all the mac pro talk I get it I totally [TS]

  well done sir [TS]

  I have speechless I you have done it I [TS]

  commend you excellent job I know you [TS]

  don't have any interest in a Wrangler [TS]

  like I get that but if you just put [TS]

  aside the fact you have no interest in [TS]

  the thing I want you to have interested [TS]

  like there's so many ways you can [TS]

  customize this you could have a soft top [TS]

  you could have a soft top that makes it [TS]

  look kind of like a pickup you could [TS]

  have a hardtop you could have a hardtop [TS]

  with a little convertible section you [TS]

  could have a winch [TS]

  you could have onboard air inflation [TS]

  system you can have different spare tire [TS]

  set up you'll mean all the different [TS]

  things you could do to this car oh my [TS]

  word I think it's perfect for you but [TS]

  anyway the actual answer I have is [TS]

  either an m5 or Hardy 63 AMG oh my god [TS]

  like is it possible to make a custom [TS]

  configuration of the Jeep Wrangler that [TS]

  I would tolerate and I'm pretty sure the [TS]

  answer is no I don't I don't think you [TS]

  do it I challenge you to try I don't [TS]

  think it's possible I think the problem [TS]

  is what I really want is like a Wrangler [TS]

  equivalent that's a sedan that's like a [TS]

  go-fast again you know something where [TS]

  you could mess with the tops and you [TS]

  could have I mean you could put [TS]

  different wheels on any car but like I [TS]

  really stand by that you would just get [TS]

  wrapped around the axle but I'm wrapped [TS]

  around the axle with all these different [TS]

  decisions you can make in all the [TS]

  different tweaks you can make like this [TS]

  is why I think and I feel I get I would [TS]

  guess that you and I would enjoy camping [TS]

  an equivalent amount and the difference [TS]

  is you've actually gone camping and I [TS]

  have not but that's a similar thing [TS]

  where I could see really either of us [TS]

  all these things I'm really just [TS]

  projecting onto you well I could see [TS]

  either of us obsessing over well the the [TS]

  aluminum spoon in fork and knife set [TS]

  ways one else but the titanium spoon [TS]

  fork and knife set weighs a half an [TS]

  ounce and even though it's literally ten [TS]

  times the cost that half an ounce in [TS]

  aggregate and aggregate adds up like [TS]

  it's the same sort of thing right like I [TS]

  could see you going or me going [TS]

  ridiculous about camping equipment in [TS]

  the same way I could see you or me going [TS]

  ridiculous with your Tinkertoys Wrangler [TS]

  so you forgot to expand our silly [TS]

  unconfined question to say okay Marco [TS]

  all of a sudden you live in the middle [TS]

  of nowhere there are no paved roads to [TS]

  your house and you have like hundreds of [TS]

  acres that you have to patrol to hunt [TS]

  for your own food then all of a sudden [TS]

  mark was interested in a jeep wrangler [TS]

  because he has a reason you know a [TS]

  pretty good off-road easy to get into [TS]

  and out of four-wheel drive vehicle to [TS]

  wander around his property with and so [TS]

  we can you know get out when he needs to [TS]

  get to the hospital fifty miles away you [TS]

  can construct a scenario which Marco [TS]

  would want a Jeep Wrangler but the [TS]

  scenario where he lives now is not it no [TS]

  not even close do you know you're not [TS]

  you're not picking up what I'm putting [TS]

  down on this one are you surprised by [TS]

  that no I'm not can we at least concede [TS]

  though can you at least concede that you [TS]

  can see that the tweak enos of it that [TS]

  you can just just dial it in just right [TS]

  like don't know [TS]

  I concede nothing come on I completely [TS]

  disagree because it's tweaking a bunch [TS]

  of things that I don't care about it's [TS]

  like no matter what you tweak about that [TS]

  build I still don't want it and never [TS]

  will like you can like it's like asking [TS]

  me like how do I want to set the EQ for [TS]

  my day of Matthews Band I can take a lot [TS]

  of things look I can I love it I could [TS]

  take a lot of the EQ that's how you [TS]

  every band - 90 decibels that's how I [TS]

  would set it I was proud of my response [TS]

  dammit then I stand by it [TS]

  but that's okay stick with the m5 that [TS]

  was a good response [TS]

  was a good response [TS]

  I kind of feel like I should have just [TS]

  left TIFF here and left the show because [TS]

  we had so much awesome feedback about [TS]

  how not only how great she was but how [TS]

  much better she was than me but [TS]

  unfortunately you guys are stuck with me [TS]

  this week all right let's start with [TS]

  some follow-up and Bradley Davis writes [TS]

  in with regard to hard to hit up/down [TS]

  arrow keys on the new MacBook Pros the [TS]

  bottom hero of the new MacBooks is [TS]

  shorter than the previous generation the [TS]

  bottom really used to be taller than all [TS]

  the other rows now it's the same height [TS]

  huge loss in my opinion especially as a [TS]

  programmer who uses modifier keys more [TS]

  than your average person I didn't even [TS]

  believe this so I measured it at work [TS]

  and he is totally right did you guys [TS]

  both realize that in the right up until [TS]

  the 2016-2017 on the MacBook Pros the [TS]

  like the spacebar and that whole row was [TS]

  taller than all the other rows of keys [TS]

  nope I know I'm curious hold on I [TS]

  thought it's plausible but it can't be [TS]

  that much bigger so I measured it it's [TS]

  it's appreciably bigger you can you know [TS]

  I didn't have I was using the side of a [TS]

  credit card or whatever but you can you [TS]

  know get a ruler and see how much bigger [TS]

  it's but it's at least like 5% bigger I [TS]

  don't know if I believe let me get out [TS]

  my behemoth of Oracle so while you guys [TS]

  get out things to measure the reason [TS]

  this is relevant is not so much that [TS]

  it's hard or actually but are we getting [TS]

  out to measure I'm getting at a digital [TS]

  caliper what are you getting at to [TS]

  measure nevermind [TS]

  wow this look a little bit taller it is [TS]

  so they're saying the reason it makes a [TS]

  difference is not because it's easier to [TS]

  hit the spacebar or the command key or [TS]

  anything but because the arrow keys oh [TS]

  yeah it's a huge difference the up and [TS]

  down our keys are jammed into a single [TS]

  key space and I was complaining it I [TS]

  felt that was a little bit harder to hit [TS]

  the up figure out the up and down arrow [TS]

  keys and the new MacBook Pros even [TS]

  though it's like the same layout it is [TS]

  the same layout but the with taller keys [TS]

  each half the top half and the bottom [TS]

  half are bigger so it makes a difference [TS]

  particularly for the arrow keys yeah so [TS]

  the height of the command key my 2015 is [TS]

  17 point 8 millimeters and then the [TS]

  height of the keys and the row above it [TS]

  are only 15 point 2 that's surprising by [TS]

  the way only tangentially related if you [TS]

  ever have a longing for the 17-inch [TS]

  MacBook Pro which I always thought was [TS]

  just hilariously stupid but I know that [TS]

  there are people that love it I do not [TS]

  need to hear from you I'm just saying [TS]

  it's not for me anyway if you ever want [TS]

  to make your 15-inch feel like a 17 inch [TS]

  from [TS]

  you know the days of the past spend a [TS]

  couple of months using exclusively [TS]

  either a 27-inch iMac or a more [TS]

  importantly a 12-inch MacBook adorable [TS]

  and then bust out your work 15-inch [TS]

  MacBook for the first time in two months [TS]

  holy monkey that thing is enormous it is [TS]

  just gigantic compared to the little [TS]

  MacBook adorable that I'm used to [TS]

  well I'll tell you what I mean like like [TS]

  even you know during during my great [TS]

  laptop shuffle of 2016-2017 when I for a [TS]

  while there owned the 13-inch MacBook [TS]

  escape that that to me is a it's such a [TS]

  great size and I and I do intend to go [TS]

  back to that probably in the next [TS]

  generation whatever comes out but when I [TS]

  was using that even after years of using [TS]

  15 inches a lot of the time I would [TS]

  occasionally see a 15-inch out in the [TS]

  world and it would it would look crazy [TS]

  to me even the brand-new like the the [TS]

  current generation ones that are better [TS]

  you know a little more compact in the [TS]

  old ones once you're used to whatever [TS]

  size you're used to anything above it [TS]

  looks like a monster good but you know [TS]

  by comparison yeah it it's started [TS]

  striking the difference but that's okay [TS]

  but today I did a half day at work from [TS]

  for the first time since January ah half [TS]

  congratulations yeah I was speaking of [TS]

  work in giant laptops I you I had my [TS]

  15-inch 2017 MacBook Pro at about 85% [TS]

  charge and I did a one-hour meeting [TS]

  where I projected during the meeting [TS]

  dream my whole battery the machine [TS]

  shutdown Wow [TS]

  I watched it go down the whole medium [TS]

  its WebEx the magic of WebEx like a [TS]

  single one-hour meeting from 85 percent [TS]

  to basically you can no longer wear in [TS]

  your computer sorry off yeah because [TS]

  that's you say WebEx is I don't I've [TS]

  never used WebEx but I I assume it's [TS]

  pretty inefficient on the CPU right we [TS]

  need to have a special episode where we [TS]

  just make Marco use all software and [TS]

  then I would imagine too that you but [TS]

  that you were plugged in you said to [TS]

  you're projecting I was so that dooms [TS]

  the discrete GPU was forced on the whole [TS]

  time and so it was basically as if you [TS]

  were playing a game and like playing [TS]

  your GPUs on your [TS]

  CPU is probably being maxed out because [TS]

  it sounds like the software is terrible [TS]

  so yeah that's gonna be about one hour [TS]

  battery life it was bad you know I think [TS]

  the most popular advertisements that [TS]

  we've ever run on this show were the [TS]

  ones that cards against Mandy did where [TS]

  we where John was forced to try a new [TS]

  usually garbage toaster each week I [TS]

  think it is possible if the cards [TS]

  against humanity' folks are listening [TS]

  that making Marco use some piece of [TS]

  enterprise grade software once for a [TS]

  once per ad that might be an even more [TS]

  popular even better segment because it [TS]

  would be magical you would probably quit [TS]

  the show just from just from being near [TS]

  enterprise these sort of things that [TS]

  John and I have to deal with every day [TS]

  yeah I would I would make a switch to [TS]

  patreon the trick is though that you [TS]

  have to be forced to use them like that [TS]

  they're mandated by the company or [TS]

  because you have to like teleconference [TS]

  so you need to use the only approved [TS]

  teleconference offer that you know [TS]

  everybody has right that's the part of [TS]

  its not just using the software it's [TS]

  that you have two toasters kind of work [TS]

  because like I maybe I'll be making [TS]

  toast anyway but there's no way Marco is [TS]

  going to even be doing the things that [TS]

  these that's true programs you know are [TS]

  made to do let alone being forced to do [TS]

  them are to be Kendall writes in if you [TS]

  think the MacBooks arrowkey setup is bad [TS]

  check Dells recipe for annoyance and [TS]

  there's a link included so imagine the [TS]

  same arrow key setup that we have in [TS]

  brand-new MacBook Pros but just for [TS]

  funsies let's put page up and page down [TS]

  in the dead space between so I'm sorry I [TS]

  guess it's not like a new MacBook Pros [TS]

  like the previous MacBook Pros and we'll [TS]

  put a page up and page down in the dead [TS]

  space to the left and right of the up [TS]

  arrow key so if you're looking at it [TS]

  it's page up and then below that is left [TS]

  up and down page down and below that is [TS]

  right it looks horrible I'm sure if you [TS]

  get used to it it's convenient but oh [TS]

  man it does not look it's not because [TS]

  like if you accidentally hit like see [TS]

  it's above the arrow keys right so if [TS]

  you accidentally hit the wrong key [TS]

  trying to go for left you don't go more [TS]

  left you go page up which is totally [TS]

  unrelated to left but that's the key [TS]

  that's near there so I would never want [TS]

  to like fumble tooth and and what if you [TS]

  didn't notice you fumble it and then you [TS]

  like didn't think you actually [TS]

  so you hit left arrow you've done left [TS]

  one character or whatever but you don't [TS]

  realize you're a page up from where you [TS]

  were and it's just well it's really [TS]

  terrible and they also overlook [TS]

  brightness the up and down arrow keys [TS]

  what I'm assuming that's a modifier [TS]

  thing but it'd be kind of funny if it [TS]

  wasn't like every time gonna move the [TS]

  cursor up you get a little brighter you [TS]

  can keep moving down the document but [TS]

  eventually you can't see it anymore [TS]

  no this this like I feel like and part [TS]

  of the reason and I swear I'm not gonna [TS]

  make this all about apples dumb laptop [TS]

  keyboards but part of the reason why [TS]

  Apple's keyboard design offenses bother [TS]

  me so much is because we have it so good [TS]

  in Apple and that usually their [TS]

  keyboards don't have horrendous flaws [TS]

  and if you look over in the PC land like [TS]

  I mean you can get a ton of really nice [TS]

  PC desktop keyboards but once you get [TS]

  into laptops especially a mass-market [TS]

  laptops especially small laptops you [TS]

  know like you can get the big gamer ones [TS]

  that have the built-in mechanical key [TS]

  switches but like once you get down to [TS]

  like Nats market small laptops PC [TS]

  designs are all over the place and have [TS]

  horrendous bad design choices about as [TS]

  often as the worst of Apple you know we [TS]

  just we normally are not seeing this [TS]

  from Apple land because we don't buy [TS]

  these things and so if we're kind of [TS]

  spoiled that like when Apple does have a [TS]

  generation where they really stood [TS]

  really terrible keyboard like our heads [TS]

  explode because we can't take it whereas [TS]

  like on the PC side this is a [TS]

  commonplace occurrence it's it's that [TS]

  time so now I have a question you are [TS]

  there in mark oh you wouldn't know this [TS]

  but maybe John would are there like [TS]

  rabid Dell fanboys on the way there were [TS]

  like five ten years ago because you know [TS]

  how like there were the Apple fanboys [TS]

  like well us and then there were all the [TS]

  people on the PC side they were all like [TS]

  devout Dell people and I feel like I [TS]

  haven't run into any of them in years do [TS]

  they still exist I've never met someone [TS]

  who's super into Dell we all know that [TS]

  there are people who love ThinkPads I [TS]

  mean in case you're one of them oh yeah [TS]

  and let me think I mean obviously this [TS]

  this enthusiasm for the specialty brands [TS]

  like Alienware or Asus or even for you [TS]

  know gaming focused stuff but Dell or HP [TS]

  I mean the closest I can get to that is [TS]

  I think there was a lot of brand loyalty [TS]

  behind gateway 2000 yeah back when they [TS]

  had the cow boxes and B and before it [TS]

  was 2000 but that was my first computer [TS]

  same but that but that was more of like [TS]

  a mainstream thing and not like a [TS]

  computer enthusiasts thing but if there [TS]

  are Dell enthusiasts I have not run [TS]

  across their path like my brother-in-law [TS]

  for example was a huge Dale enthusiast [TS]

  as much as one can be up until a few [TS]

  years ago and then he started buying [TS]

  surfaces surface or things I don't know [TS]

  whatever and he's been really [TS]

  enthusiastic about those ever since but [TS]

  and maybe that's what they did is all [TS]

  the Dell people went and bought surfaces [TS]

  but I know I just had occurred to me [TS]

  that I haven't seen anyone that's like [TS]

  really amped for Dell in a long time [TS]

  anyway [TS]

  and our final bit of follow up just a [TS]

  small anecdote from the kitchen in the [TS]

  list household earlier tonight we were [TS]

  Aaron was making dinner and I was doing [TS]

  something with with Declan and oh I was [TS]

  I I was walking around carrying Michaela [TS]

  in a little carrier on my chest and [TS]

  multitasking and playing breath of the [TS]

  wild at the same time because I've [TS]

  started to pick that up again and then [TS]

  Declan caught wind of what I was doing [TS]

  and he was like oh I want to watch and [TS]

  we don't really like giving Declan a [TS]

  whole ton of screen time if we can avoid [TS]

  it so what I decided to do was set a [TS]

  timer for myself and remind me not to [TS]

  play Zelda for more than like five or [TS]

  ten minutes while Declan was watching [TS]

  and I was just gonna put it away this is [TS]

  a hell of a multitask yeah well you know [TS]

  I do what I can so so I asked the lady [TS]

  in a tube to remind me to stop playing [TS]

  Zelda in five minutes or something like [TS]

  that and I think the key is that I [TS]

  phrased it with remind which I'm not [TS]

  sure why I did that but that's what I [TS]

  did and she got really really confused [TS]

  and apparently there's like a whole [TS]

  different reminders versus timers setup [TS]

  which makes sense but I'd never you know [TS]

  experienced this in my week in a day [TS]

  with you know a lady in a tube in the [TS]

  house so anyway so I'm like going back [TS]

  and forth with with the echo trying to [TS]

  get it to just set what amounts it to [TS]

  like a five minute timer and I'm you [TS]

  know this was my fault I phrased it [TS]

  poorly no big deal but [TS]

  what was funny was from the kitchen I [TS]

  hear Aaron say something along the lines [TS]

  of oh come on Siri get your act together [TS]

  knowing full well I was talking to the [TS]

  echo so here it was that she was using [TS]

  like she was she was calling the echo [TS]

  Siri as a not derogatory the sun--the or [TS]

  what I'm looking for but like as a like [TS]

  a put-down you know like she was saying [TS]

  oh this is reminding me of how terrible [TS]

  Syria's in so many words [TS]

  and I thought that was kind of [TS]

  interesting because Aaron is the most [TS]

  normal person in the list household by a [TS]

  far margin and so it was interesting to [TS]

  me to see her kind of associate and [TS]

  equate a crummy voice experience with [TS]

  Siri because you know early on I thought [TS]

  that and I was reflecting on this [TS]

  briefly on Twitter earlier early on I [TS]

  actually thought Siri was extremely [TS]

  impressive like like the first year - I [TS]

  thought Siri was really good and then it [TS]

  seemed like everyone else started to [TS]

  either create their own voices [TS]

  assistance or make their own voice [TS]

  assistance really a whole lot better and [TS]

  ever since the first year or two when [TS]

  series brand new I've really been [TS]

  unimpressed as we've talked about on the [TS]

  show more than once and as we've used [TS]

  the echo for more and more things I've [TS]

  been more more impressed by it so a [TS]

  silly example of that we were listening [TS]

  to vinyl we were listening to the album [TS]

  thriller the terrible song the girl is [TS]

  mine came on which is a collaboration [TS]

  between McCartney and Jackson and I [TS]

  asked I asked the lady a tube something [TS]

  along the lines of how much older is [TS]

  Michael jack all right I'm sorry it's [TS]

  Paul McCartney the Michael Jackson and [TS]

  she knew exactly what I was talking [TS]

  about and gave me the answer and I think [TS]

  was like 16 years and I think I had even [TS]

  asked if I recall correctly I'd asked if [TS]

  Michael Jackson were alive today how old [TS]

  would he be and I thought that was [TS]

  stretching a bit like I was not gonna be [TS]

  surprised if the lady in the tube would [TS]

  not know what the crap I was asking and [TS]

  sure enough she gave me an answer [TS]

  couldn't tell you what it was offhand [TS]

  but she gave me an answer and that like [TS]

  if I haven't tried it but if I ask Siri [TS]

  how old Michael Jackson be today I would [TS]

  be very surprised if Siri had any darn [TS]

  idea what I was talking about and the [TS]

  fact that I don't think even think it's [TS]

  worth trying is itself an indication of [TS]

  my lack of confidence in Siri well [TS]

  next time you ask one of those questions [TS]

  and you're and you're impressed or not [TS]

  impressed by by happy echo does take out [TS]

  your phone rest here the same thing it [TS]

  is it is kind of useful as commentators [TS]

  and enthusiasts in this field to do that [TS]

  and compare like you know how are these [TS]

  things doing with the things that I what [TS]

  that I think I should ask them because I [TS]

  found whenever I do that I do find the [TS]

  echo devices to have better answers [TS]

  faster more of the time but they don't [TS]

  always get them and Siri doesn't always [TS]

  not get them you know it's just it's a [TS]

  series average is worse for me but but [TS]

  the the Alexa devices are actually not [TS]

  perfect either they just have better [TS]

  averages I do I do think they like going [TS]

  back to the to the beginning of the [TS]

  story though I just I wish that these [TS]

  devices handled the the basic like the [TS]

  basic PDA functions like the things that [TS]

  like all computing hardware and stuff [TS]

  have tried to do since the beginning of [TS]

  time that almost everyone needs [TS]

  reminders alarms [TS]

  timers calendar like these are very [TS]

  basic things that everything should be [TS]

  able to do these days and the fact that [TS]

  like you know and the echo devices I [TS]

  think do a pretty good job on a timer [TS]

  front that I think their timer support [TS]

  is excellent their alarms are basically [TS]

  just like timers they're excellent as [TS]

  well [TS]

  iPhones and and you know I stuff as we [TS]

  as we talked about with the home pod [TS]

  long she's not having multiple timers or [TS]

  name time or things like that like [TS]

  that's still so far behind and it just [TS]

  seems like that like that stuff is not [TS]

  that hard from a programming perspective [TS]

  like that isn't that hard [TS]

  it just seems it's it seems baffling to [TS]

  me that anything any of these like a [TS]

  voice assistant services or devices [TS]

  launch these days without totally [TS]

  nailing reminders timers alarms and was [TS]

  your own calendar like those should be [TS]

  easy and at least like calendar I can [TS]

  kind of understand if any of them don't [TS]

  because you have to like connect two [TS]

  different services and maybe you don't [TS]

  they don't support the one you use or [TS]

  you haven't set it up or whatever but [TS]

  like reminders should be local on device [TS]

  if they if they don't have any kind of [TS]

  same thing set up like that that's easy [TS]

  you know remind me at this time too [TS]

  do this like they just they should just [TS]

  treat that as a timer and it's like the [TS]

  fact that anything that is that simple [TS]

  to do doesn't work properly on any of [TS]

  these things it should be kind of [TS]

  embarrassing I think we discussed the in [TS]

  the past on this topic I'm still waiting [TS]

  for like forget about how far beyond [TS]

  Syria may be and its own but I'm still [TS]

  waiting for the next logical step in [TS]

  this well I guess this two one is the [TS]

  advancement of the vocabulary [TS]

  surrounding the things Marco just said [TS]

  echo and Google home are pretty good and [TS]

  as you know as Casey found you just [TS]

  phrase it the way you think and it'll [TS]

  mostly figure it out but the next [TS]

  logical step is some and I think then [TS]

  maybe the reason this is so difficult [TS]

  that are require more Hardware locally [TS]

  is some some context awareness to allow [TS]

  the beginnings of a conversation about [TS]

  things because although these devices [TS]

  are flexible about how we request the [TS]

  things you can phrase it a different way [TS]

  someone somewhere that it ends up being [TS]

  single command single response there is [TS]

  no semblance of a conversation for the [TS]

  most part except for in very rudimentary [TS]

  things will ever ask for confirmation or [TS]

  something or sometimes cereal ask for [TS]

  basic clarification but I would rather [TS]

  be able to speak in him even more [TS]

  offhand manner clarifying with a series [TS]

  of grunts yeah that's necessary right [TS]

  like you interact with people like that [TS]

  there is that there is context like that [TS]

  the thing doesn't entirely forget about [TS]

  the interaction you had three seconds [TS]

  ago when you make some other requests [TS]

  that it can figure out what you mean oh [TS]

  yeah I forgot also blah blah blah that [TS]

  hasn't forgotten the the previous [TS]

  context just basic conversation thing [TS]

  I'm not saying is you know it's got to [TS]

  have deep conversations with me and my [TS]

  name saying has to be like Eliza right [TS]

  but I feel like that's the next logical [TS]

  step into this right if Apple still [TS]

  can't even do multiple timers by the [TS]

  time the competitors get to the [TS]

  beginnings of a conversation phase we'll [TS]

  be lucky if Apple is being able to do [TS]

  the basics of all the things Marco [TS]

  listed in a flexible way a real-time [TS]

  follow-up I did ask Siri you know how [TS]

  old would Michael Jackson be today and I [TS]

  got a web search so no surprise there [TS]

  the trick for it by the way the trick [TS]

  for doing comparisons you got to make [TS]

  sure you were to make [TS]

  exactly the same way to be fair because [TS]

  I think that's the whole thing like I [TS]

  try to when I speak to the various [TS]

  cylinders I tried to just not think [TS]

  about syntax and just say whatever [TS]

  occurs to me because that's the test [TS]

  like a phrase it's a however I wanna [TS]

  phrase it but you have to remember how [TS]

  you phrased it which is convenient [TS]

  because it's recording your voice you'll [TS]

  play it back Casey that's all I hear [TS]

  remember how you phrase that and then do [TS]

  it word-for-word to Siri just to be fair [TS]

  yeah because you may say it a different [TS]

  way to Siri because now you're thinking [TS]

  about it and everything and if Siri gets [TS]

  wrong on one phrasing it's very [TS]

  sensitive to the exact position of you [TS]

  know all the things in the sentences or [TS]

  whatever we respond to this week by [TS]

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  they also they even have three totally [TS]

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  again I look at you $30 off your first [TS]

  week of hell [TS]

  fresh thank you so much - hello fresh [TS]

  for sponsoring our show so apparently [TS]

  there's going to be an onboarding screen [TS]

  for every single damn app on future [TS]

  versions of iOS we've seen a little of [TS]

  this trickle out over the last few [TS]

  months and how do you pronounce this [TS]

  it's a gear may Rambo mr. Rambo mr. [TS]

  Rambo who is underscore inside on [TS]

  Twitter he first jumped into my radar [TS]

  screen by being one of the people that [TS]

  was tag teaming with Steve trout and [TS]

  Smith during the home pod firmware I [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  picking about or you know the hyenas [TS]

  went and and picked at the home pod [TS]

  firmware but anyways he had tweeted [TS]

  earlier Apple is busy adding onboarding [TS]

  screens to every single iOS feature and [TS]

  here's a screenshot of welcome to videos [TS]

  browse your library watch anytime [TS]

  anywhere enjoy extras etc and mr. Rambo [TS]

  if you please has been going through [TS]

  other iOS features and finding similar [TS]

  things I don't get this I don't think [TS]

  it's necessarily bad even though in any [TS]

  time I get asked to make an onboarding [TS]

  screen I always fight tooth and nail to [TS]

  avoid it but I mean for for novice users [TS]

  or new users I don't think that's [TS]

  necessarily bad but what do you guys [TS]

  think about this let's start with Marco [TS]

  as a user when I am when I just install [TS]

  an iOS update and I get these screens in [TS]

  every app I try to use I'm annoyed by [TS]

  them I I don't like them as a user from [TS]

  Apple's point of view though from from [TS]

  the developer point of view like I see [TS]

  that side as well because I'm a [TS]

  developer and I've never had one of [TS]

  these screens in any of my apps but I [TS]

  kind of need them sometimes because when [TS]

  you when you're updating your software [TS]

  it's really hard to communicate to [TS]

  people when things have changed in a way [TS]

  that is helpful and not annoying and and [TS]

  and they will actually you know see or [TS]

  hear or you know remember this is a very [TS]

  hard problem and so there have been lots [TS]

  of times where I [TS]

  make a change and I'll you know mention [TS]

  it on the Twitter account or I'll write [TS]

  a blog post about it or something but [TS]

  the fact is like some tiny percentage of [TS]

  my audience actually looks at those [TS]

  things like most of the users of the app [TS]

  don't know when I've change anything I [TS]

  can put things in the app store update [TS]

  notes which I do but no one sees those [TS]

  either for the most part because [TS]

  everyone Auto updates and no one ever [TS]

  looks at the notes so it's it's really [TS]

  hard to communicate feature changes and [TS]

  improvements and and you know UI changes [TS]

  that aren't immediately obvious it's [TS]

  very hard to communicate that to an [TS]

  existing user base new users it isn't a [TS]

  problem as much because new users you [TS]

  know a they don't care what how things [TS]

  were before they got there so you don't [TS]

  have to tell them what things have [TS]

  changed and be new users tend to be more [TS]

  exploratory they'll like poke through [TS]

  settings screen stuff to select what the [TS]

  app can do so if you just added some [TS]

  settings or added some new features like [TS]

  they'll find them as they poke around [TS]

  the whole the whole rest of the app but [TS]

  how you communicate this to existing [TS]

  users is always a challenge [TS]

  so Apple faces the same problems than [TS]

  any other fail / does which is you know [TS]

  some small percentage of users of Apple [TS]

  devices pay attention when they like [TS]

  announce a new feature in a keynote or [TS]

  on on or whatever else but [TS]

  most of their customers don't see that [TS]

  and if even even the ones that do don't [TS]

  all remember it by the time they're [TS]

  actually using these things so Apple has [TS]

  the same problem that every other app [TS]

  developer has which is how do they [TS]

  communicate changes to their app or even [TS]

  do they communicate changes to their app [TS]

  which is a valid question to ask or do [TS]

  they just kind of let the app stand on [TS]

  its own and let people figure it out so [TS]

  this is Apple I think trying you know [TS]

  trying a new way of doing this so far [TS]

  they've really not communicated changes [TS]

  to the apps in the app stem cells [TS]

  they've usually just made the changes [TS]

  mention it in you know press events and [TS]

  stuff and that's it and people just kind [TS]

  of find them when they when they update [TS]

  and this is a different approach this is [TS]

  them saying you know what let's put up [TS]

  these little helpful sheets the first [TS]

  time you launch some of these apps [TS]

  saying hey here's what's new in this app [TS]

  in this version of iOS again I don't [TS]

  love these as a user but I see why they [TS]

  do it it solves a problem and it's not a [TS]

  great problem but it's it's a [TS]

  problem nonetheless and it solves it in [TS]

  not a great way but it might be like the [TS]

  least crappy way we've thought of so far [TS]

  so I don't object very strongly I see [TS]

  what they're trying to do it's annoying [TS]

  when I go to do something I have to go [TS]

  dismiss a screen instead of like doing [TS]

  the thing actual into that to do but [TS]

  that's a one-time annoyance and so if [TS]

  overall it helps people you know find [TS]

  stuff I guess I'm okay with that this is [TS]

  part of I mean the screenshots here from [TS]

  a phone right but they might do some [TS]

  other things in the iPad I don't know [TS]

  but part of the problem they're solving [TS]

  here is caused by the fact that the [TS]

  screens are just so darn small compared [TS]

  to a computer screen like in the [TS]

  personal computer world we've always had [TS]

  I mean there's a long history in the [TS]

  personal computer world the splash [TS]

  screen [TS]

  remember those where they were just put [TS]

  up a big box that puts the name of the [TS]

  application and maybe some credits and [TS]

  like some loading stuff for you to watch [TS]

  while your application takes a year in [TS]

  day to launch right that transition on [TS]

  the desktop - well the general move away [TS]

  from loading screens if you see a [TS]

  loading screen you know you're either [TS]

  using like Microsoft for an Adobe [TS]

  product or you're like back in time [TS]

  somewhere most desktop applications on [TS]

  the Mac anyway have moved far far away [TS]

  from any kind of splash screen right but [TS]

  there is a trend that started you know [TS]

  maybe a decade ago probably led by [TS]

  office or some other things to give you [TS]

  that screen I don't know what you call [TS]

  it that's probably a name for it where [TS]

  it shows a bunch of template's or like [TS]

  the first-run experience like tutorial [TS]

  click through next next next thing to [TS]

  show you screen shots of the app it's [TS]

  called ubi the out of box experience oh [TS]

  my god it's not coming out of a box yeah [TS]

  but yeah so that kind of thing and [TS]

  sometimes it doesn't even go away [TS]

  sometimes like in an office it's the [TS]

  preference you have to say every time I [TS]

  launch you know Excel don't show me the [TS]

  thing with a bunch of Excel templates [TS]

  I just don't show me that just open it [TS]

  and like you know I can handle it myself [TS]

  but in all cases in a desktop [TS]

  application on the Mac especially a [TS]

  buddy most desktop platforms there's a [TS]

  place that you can go to learn more [TS]

  about what this application can do [TS]

  whether it's to help make [TS]

  you or like Apple guide in the old days [TS]

  like there's some standard way to say [TS]

  what can I do in this application I know [TS]

  I see a bunch of menus up there but you [TS]

  know help me out and help very some [TS]

  application application sometimes it's [TS]

  just a limited thing that you can search [TS]

  but some applications have really [TS]

  comprehensive help or even if they just [TS]

  Chuck you to a website I think the the [TS]

  main thing that these screens are [TS]

  answering for new users who again they [TS]

  don't have to be told about changes or [TS]

  anything is what can I do in this [TS]

  application so if we look at that [TS]

  welcome to videos thing that in this [TS]

  tweet here it's not really telling you [TS]

  what changes last version it's like [TS]

  where's the video app do because if you [TS]

  just launch it forget the screen what is [TS]

  the first screen you see when you launch [TS]

  videos especially if you actually have [TS]

  no videos that's always the problem on [TS]

  iOS like what do you show when there's [TS]

  no stuff it's not really clear what you [TS]

  would use this application for so this [TS]

  is where you differ [TS]

  you know browse your library I find [TS]

  purchases and rentals you know watch [TS]

  anytime anywhere play videos over Wi-Fi [TS]

  or cell you download to watch offline [TS]

  and enjoy extras right I mean I would if [TS]

  I had to describe what you're doing the [TS]

  videos app I wouldn't have put that and [TS]

  enjoy extra thing but that's an [TS]

  important piece of information people [TS]

  might not know oh there might be special [TS]

  features associated with something I [TS]

  purchased and I can watch them here too [TS]

  and then it's so it's important to just [TS]

  convey that basic information but [TS]

  unfortunately unlike the desktop say [TS]

  what you're like most people and like [TS]

  yeah yeah like Marco said this is [TS]

  generally an annoyance and if you look [TS]

  in the Apple's old you know human [TS]

  interface guidelines they'd be like [TS]

  don't stop your user from doing what [TS]

  they set out to do by interrupting them [TS]

  with the thing that that you know just [TS]

  before you do what you want to do I want [TS]

  to tell you something about the videos [TS]

  that was like men oh yeah yeah I'm not [TS]

  whatever you're trying to tell me I [TS]

  don't care just let me get to the thing [TS]

  I want to do and you reflexively hit the [TS]

  continue button before you even register [TS]

  any words on the page right which I [TS]

  expect that to happen a lot but unlike [TS]

  in a desktop app you know how do you get [TS]

  this screen back if later you're [TS]

  wondering okay something I can do in the [TS]

  videos that were what is this video you [TS]

  happy even for you can't go to the help [TS]

  menu and say show me that first run [TS]

  experience thing again like I don't even [TS]

  know if there is a way to get this back [TS]

  once you've dismissed it other than [TS]

  waiting for the next OS update or [TS]

  something or resetting your ear thing [TS]

  and it's because there's just no [TS]

  standardized place [TS]

  iOS applications probably because the [TS]

  screen is so small to say where do I go [TS]

  to get help about this application or [TS]

  will there ever even be help within this [TS]

  application is it always something I [TS]

  have to do elsewhere and then but but [TS]

  not a thing that happens in the app and [TS]

  the final bit that I think Apple is [TS]

  leaning on here is the wish you were [TS]

  here people down at the bottom of this [TS]

  Apple's new little logo for privacy that [TS]

  shows two people shaking hands with each [TS]

  other part of that is marketing and that [TS]

  Apple wants to emphasize is one of its [TS]

  competitive advantages which is for [TS]

  every application that you launched this [TS]

  an Apple application we care about your [TS]

  privacy we'll tell you exactly how we're [TS]

  not using your information in a creepy [TS]

  way and and implicitly how everyone else [TS]

  is who doesn't have the similar [TS]

  disclosure is using your information in [TS]

  a creepy way so you should use Apple [TS]

  stuff that little logo I think Apple is [TS]

  trying to associate with the good [TS]

  information that you'll find linked from [TS]

  it is like when you see that logo that's [TS]

  Apple reminding you that they're the [TS]

  probably is a company that doesn't do [TS]

  creepy things and tap here on the small [TS]

  text to find out exactly how non creepy [TS]

  we are and the only way you get that in [TS]

  people's faces is if you put that in [TS]

  people's faces otherwise you know in the [TS]

  past Apple has not been doing creepy [TS]

  things with your data but there is no [TS]

  way as a user of these applications that [TS]

  you know that because you launched them [TS]

  they just show whatever their initial [TS]

  screen is and there's no indication in [TS]

  the application of exactly how creepy [TS]

  and applicate it is or isn't [TS]

  and so how Paul is relying on the fact [TS]

  that you trust them enough to believe [TS]

  them when they tell you that by the way [TS]

  we're not doing creepy stuff and they [TS]

  want to remind you of that so I have [TS]

  similar mixed feelings to Marco about [TS]

  the screen and that I understand the [TS]

  reasoning behind it but I but I think it [TS]

  is it is difficult to for it to fulfill [TS]

  its purpose because it's probably so [TS]

  easy to dismiss quickly because there's [TS]

  no way to get it back after you've done [TS]

  that and because it interrupts the user [TS]

  from doing what they wanted to doing yet [TS]

  I think most new users especially would [TS]

  benefit from not reflexively dismissing [TS]

  the screen from actually reading the [TS]

  three little bullet points so they know [TS]

  why you would ever want to launch the [TS]

  videos app or whatever now it can be [TS]

  taken to extremes here we have this a [TS]

  follow-up create from a micro sergeant [TS]

  that shows that what's new in clock [TS]

  yeah we're the only item is this splash [TS]

  screen literally just the splash screen [TS]

  what do you want from us but it still [TS]

  got the privacy bring up the bottom it [TS]

  was that real I assumed that was a [TS]

  Photoshop yeah it's fake but it's funny [TS]

  but like where does it where does this [TS]

  end so similar to the trend of desktop [TS]

  applications all opening up with like a [TS]

  template library create a new document [TS]

  pick from one of these 17 templates like [TS]

  just no just get out of my face right [TS]

  this type of thing can be annoying and [TS]

  if Apple does it it may encourage other [TS]

  people to do it and if every new iOS [TS]

  application you launched put one of [TS]

  these screens up it really amplifies the [TS]

  the you are stopping me from doing what [TS]

  I'm trying to do factor and it makes [TS]

  people even more quick on the draw to [TS]

  reflexively dismiss these things and it [TS]

  further emphasizes the fact that if you [TS]

  do reflexively dismiss it there's [TS]

  probably no standard way to get it back [TS]

  so I think this is a difficult problem [TS]

  that Apple is solving in a not-so-great [TS]

  way but I do understand why they're [TS]

  doing it yeah I mean like it's really [TS]

  hard you know as it's like it's really [TS]

  hard to figure out how to communicate [TS]

  change like this in your app but I think [TS]

  like yeah I think you know what I [TS]

  mentioned initially and what you guys [TS]

  kind of confirmed and clarified for me [TS]

  is like I think the biggest reason why I [TS]

  don't like these things is that it is [TS]

  almost never a good time when I see them [TS]

  it's like no I didn't come here to read [TS]

  what's new I came here to write [TS]

  something down really fast or do [TS]

  something like you know it's it - I came [TS]

  here doing a task that I don't have time [TS]

  right now to explore all the new [TS]

  features that you did for me and get to [TS]

  get through your marking language like [TS]

  the problem is like you know you know [TS]

  what percentage of the time and when [TS]

  people are first seen this is going to [TS]

  be that kind of context or the [TS]

  christendom breeze right by it even if [TS]

  people have time we are so conditioned [TS]

  to dismiss those screens that were not [TS]

  going to remember you know things that [TS]

  are on it you know it's one of the one [TS]

  of the most sad realities of interface [TS]

  design but this has been true forever [TS]

  and will always be true is that nobody [TS]

  reads anything like anything you're [TS]

  explaining by just like a couple of [TS]

  bullet points a text nobody will read it [TS]

  the very small handful to do won't [TS]

  remember it and so explaining things [TS]

  with text is just not very effective [TS]

  it's not you [TS]

  should never rely on that ultimately the [TS]

  best way to solve the problem of how do [TS]

  you communicate changes in your app is [TS]

  with the design of the app itself this [TS]

  isn't always possible this isn't always [TS]

  practical but ideally the changes should [TS]

  either be like not worth mentioning [TS]

  because the user doesn't care if it's [TS]

  like oh we under the hood change it's [TS]

  like well the user doesn't care [TS]

  great dude do the other changes makes [TS]

  you happy it makes your users happy that [TS]

  like things are faster or don't crash [TS]

  whatever else great don't need to [TS]

  mention that or it's like new features [TS]

  in which case like those will make [TS]

  themselves apparent in the interface as [TS]

  the user is using them it's hard these [TS]

  days not only is it hard on touchscreens [TS]

  because as you mentioned like they're so [TS]

  small that makes it hard for a lot of [TS]

  features to be visible because you don't [TS]

  have space on the screen to have like a [TS]

  toolbar button for everything the app [TS]

  can do but also modern design trends are [TS]

  such that you try to hide as much as [TS]

  possible in the main interface you try [TS]

  to make the main interface like as empty [TS]

  as possible everything looks super [TS]

  sparse and open the way Apple would [TS]

  phrase that is maximize your content [TS]

  they wouldn't say you're hiding things [TS]

  they would say you're allowing the [TS]

  content they've said with so many it so [TS]

  many sessions the content maximizing the [TS]

  content not minimizing UI but in effect [TS]

  you are hiding everything else if you're [TS]

  putting the content in front and that I [TS]

  think gets to what you were saying with [TS]

  you you know this is not a good time [TS]

  application to be telling me about your [TS]

  features right that's the beauty of the [TS]

  help menu when the user seeks out an [TS]

  item in the help menu that is their task [TS]

  at that point they're trying to learn [TS]

  more about the application that is [TS]

  exactly the time you should tell them [TS]

  more but there is no standardized [TS]

  interface element in iOS for almost [TS]

  anything like that it's part of the [TS]

  beauty of iOS that each application gets [TS]

  the entire screen back from the single [TS]

  testing model and maximizing the content [TS]

  all those are good trends but the lack [TS]

  of really any standardized interface [TS]

  element aside from the status bar which [TS]

  at least we know you can use to scroll [TS]

  to the top most of the time really does [TS]

  hurt discoverability if there was some [TS]

  kind of standard help widget that was [TS]

  the same across all apps that would be [TS]

  the perfect place to stash this because [TS]

  when people [TS]

  Apted they would be seeking out [TS]

  information about your application at [TS]

  that moment but it in the absence of [TS]

  that even if even if you have a great [TS]

  help widget in your app no one knows [TS]

  what it means or where it is or what it [TS]

  does because it's not standardized right [TS]

  and so we're forced to throw this in [TS]

  people's faces otherwise they will [TS]

  literally never see it oh yeah and and [TS]

  you know and part of that like you know [TS]

  a lot of a lot of I don't know people [TS]

  who haven't been around this stuff that [TS]

  long you know the kids these days or a [TS]

  lot of a lot of assumptions are made [TS]

  about current design trends that people [TS]

  project as universal design rules that [TS]

  have always and will always be the best [TS]

  and and the fact is right now we are in [TS]

  you know I'd say probably the the [TS]

  three-quarters point of a trend of ultra [TS]

  minimalism everywhere and the fact is [TS]

  that's just a style that's it that's [TS]

  been in fact it's been in style for a [TS]

  little while we have a little more of it [TS]

  to go probably that isn't necessarily [TS]

  the only or best way to design apps a [TS]

  lot of the minimalism of iOS apps and [TS]

  interfaces and getting out of the way [TS]

  for the content was born of limitations [TS]

  of the original iPhone hardware being a [TS]

  really small screen but as phones have [TS]

  gotten significantly bigger as also [TS]

  we've added things like iPads and [TS]

  possibly you know Mac through Bridge [TS]

  layers this fall we hope you know as [TS]

  we've added larger screens and more [TS]

  capability and everything the ultra [TS]

  minimalist thing doesn't necessarily [TS]

  work or doesn't carry over as well also [TS]

  the software like iOS started from zero [TS]

  with software I started with like every [TS]

  software gonna be one point out here and [TS]

  so no there weren't a lot of features in [TS]

  most apps for a long time and there [TS]

  still aren't on iOS apps but many apps [TS]

  now are pushing those boundaries and [TS]

  have developed over the last decade into [TS]

  very feature-rich [TS]

  very capable apps and the conventions of [TS]

  ultra minimalist you know hide [TS]

  everything design while they still look [TS]

  very nice they suffer greatly from [TS]

  discoverability and an affordances of [TS]

  like you know showing people what is [TS]

  possible or how to how to use things [TS]

  and this is again this is just a design [TS]

  trend of hide everything that won't last [TS]

  forever you know and and I honestly I [TS]

  think it's almost over because I think [TS]

  it's it's many usability flaws are [TS]

  really piling up and it's resulting in [TS]

  people having to do bad hacks like those [TS]

  splash screens you know like that's [TS]

  those are terrible hacks you know like I [TS]

  frequently tell the story about like [TS]

  when I first made the magazine app I [TS]

  thought it would be a good design [TS]

  principle to not need a settings screen [TS]

  and so I didn't have 11.0 and I tried I [TS]

  tried to get it I was just okay there's [TS]

  no settings anywhere or there's no [TS]

  settings screen right there anywhere [TS]

  let me just design the app to not need a [TS]

  settings screen wouldn't that be great [TS]

  wouldn't that be clean and modern and [TS]

  everything and the fact is to not have a [TS]

  settings screen I had to jump through [TS]

  hoops and the hoops I jumped through [TS]

  were worse than just having a setting [TS]

  screen and this is a very important like [TS]

  you know lesson that I learned at that [TS]

  time and a metaphor that had that I [TS]

  think is widely applicable by the way I [TS]

  still haven't listened every time I mean [TS]

  I have a stoop I have a significant [TS]

  design problem in overcast right now [TS]

  that I need to revert on the Now Playing [TS]

  screen just guess how many emails I get [TS]

  per day from people asking how to change [TS]

  the speed it's I have a significant [TS]

  problem that I need to redesign there [TS]

  but in our efforts to make things clean [TS]

  and simple and minimal usability suffers [TS]

  big time and I think we're finally [TS]

  starting to realize that but it's still [TS]

  an open question of how we are going to [TS]

  solve that going forward I think it's [TS]

  not just a design problem as obvious [TS]

  there's the obvious design thing and [TS]

  Apple isn't emphasizing that you know [TS]

  make make your content give it give it [TS]

  focus make it the primary thing you know [TS]

  it's the thing that people care about [TS]

  most people use all the features yeah [TS]

  I'm mostly good but especially on larger [TS]

  iOS devices which may include phones you [TS]

  know they're getting bigger at least [TS]

  they'll sell the SE but especially on [TS]

  iPads potentially even larger things [TS]

  part of it is up to the OS to provide [TS]

  standardized elements for things and [TS]

  a set of standardized elements you need [TS]

  for a 3.5 inch phone screen is not the [TS]

  same for the set of standardized [TS]

  elements that you need to make a really [TS]

  great application on a 12 point 9 inch [TS]

  iPad and getting back to the help menu [TS]

  not that I'm saying that they should add [TS]

  a menu bar but if you leave it up to [TS]

  even if this trend the design trend ends [TS]

  and everybody stops doing everything [TS]

  minimal and they start adding just [TS]

  toolbars and palettes everywhere if [TS]

  there is no standardization for that the [TS]

  toolbars and palettes in every [TS]

  application will be wildly different and [TS]

  users still won't know where to go for [TS]

  common functions like finding the help [TS]

  or any kind of guide or and you know any [TS]

  trend towards that or whatever may be I [TS]

  think one of the poster children for [TS]

  this was I forget what version it was [TS]

  but a couple of releases ago apples [TS]

  photos application that would launch and [TS]

  it would show like a highlight or mark [TS]

  up with things circled in yellow pen all [TS]

  over the screen with one of those [TS]

  overlays the worst I was at photos I [TS]

  know iMovie did that but it might have [TS]

  been lots of applications do this but [TS]

  because yeah they're they're not they're [TS]

  not going super minimal because a lot of [TS]

  those applications particularly Apple in [TS]

  that I'm thinking of that I can't [TS]

  remember the chatroom will tell me in a [TS]

  second they have tons of controls on the [TS]

  screen there are a lot of buttons maybe [TS]

  the minimalism is like a why aren't the [TS]

  buttons labeled they're all icons which [TS]

  is why they're so damn inscrutable but [TS]

  they were everywhere there was like 50 [TS]

  of them on the screen and then they [TS]

  would circle them all with pen and say [TS]

  use this for this use this for this use [TS]

  this for this use this for this use it's [TS]

  like no one's ever gonna remember that [TS]

  no one's ever gonna read that no one's [TS]

  ever gonna be able to figure out how to [TS]

  bring it back and the reason you need it [TS]

  is because without that overlay nobody [TS]

  knows what any of those icons do because [TS]

  there is no standardization for you know [TS]

  toolbars for common functionality and [TS]

  it's somewhat like the Mac had the [TS]

  luxury of not having the sort of [TS]

  Cambrian explosion of applications that [TS]

  iOS did because a lot of the conventions [TS]

  let's say in graphics applications on [TS]

  the Mac it was like seeded by a Mac [TS]

  Paint and evolved slowly through like [TS]

  super paint and the Adobe applications [TS]

  to establish over the course of several [TS]

  important formative years the standard [TS]

  language for tools and design [TS]

  applications if you see a little Mickey [TS]

  Mouse glove [TS]

  everyone knows that's like the grabber [TS]

  thing if you see a paint bucket with [TS]

  paint pouring out of it everyone knows [TS]

  what that does like I'm so glad that you [TS]

  know that those those widgets have you [TS]

  know whoever owned the copyright on the [TS]

  first ones those didn't aggressively [TS]

  pursue it and say you can't use a paint [TS]

  bucket in your application because it [TS]

  wasn't Adobe who did it first it was [TS]

  Apple and you know so anyway there is a [TS]

  design language within graphics [TS]

  applications that even if you use a new [TS]

  graphics app you know where to find [TS]

  things but that's application level [TS]

  beyond that the help menu is a thing [TS]

  that Apple defines as the offender to [TS]

  say there is a menu bar the main user in [TS]

  this order the help system in this era [TS]

  of the Mac is this shape and in this [TS]

  position and here's what you can expect [TS]

  to find on it or the menu bar itself the [TS]

  fact that a menu bar exists applications [TS]

  didn't decide that the OS decided that [TS]

  again not saying that iOS needs a menu [TS]

  bar but that the combination of the OS [TS]

  and the applications develop a an [TS]

  interface language that means when you [TS]

  go from one really complicated [TS]

  application to another really [TS]

  complicated application you have a hope [TS]

  in hell of knowing how the second [TS]

  application works because hopefully it [TS]

  works in some way similar to the first [TS]

  one and the the model of iOS where the [TS]

  application owns the entire screen makes [TS]

  it very difficult to have any kind of [TS]

  consistency yeah maybe the buttons look [TS]

  the same and yeah maybe the little [TS]

  pop-up dialog things look the same and [TS]

  stuff but the application itself is [TS]

  almost like games where they can design [TS]

  their own interface entirely and that [TS]

  leads us down the path of Apple being [TS]

  forced to put a hilarious [TS]

  you know football style telestrator [TS]

  markup illustration covering its [TS]

  interface that no one's ever gonna [TS]

  remember and then having a thing go away [TS]

  and having you look at a bunch of [TS]

  hieroglyphics and go so I guess I'll [TS]

  just tap things randomly and see is this [TS]

  crop tool is this the crop tool is just [TS]

  I mean any crop tool they could just [TS]

  steal the icon from from the desktop [TS]

  applications but even that varies a lot [TS]

  so I think iOS has a long way to go even [TS]

  once we get over the design trend [TS]

  minimalism to have to realize the dream [TS]

  of the Mac that the the interface [TS]

  consistency allows you to understand how [TS]

  a new application would work by reusing [TS]

  knowledge about a previous application [TS]

  I mean I I'm not even sure that we're [TS]

  gonna have that again because the the [TS]

  companies and platforms these days are [TS]

  just so much bigger than they used to be [TS]

  like you know we Apple is a huge company [TS]

  now way bigger than even you know five [TS]

  ten years ago when when they were doing [TS]

  a lot of these like initial iPhone [TS]

  designs and everything they're way [TS]

  bigger now there are way more apps [TS]

  there's way more departments and [TS]

  divisions and services and apps and [TS]

  platforms and everything else like you [TS]

  know the Apple watch looks nothing like [TS]

  the rest of us Apple TV is a total is a [TS]

  whole different ballgame as well even on [TS]

  iOS there there's tons of different [TS]

  design languages like you have Apple [TS]

  music you have maps you have some of the [TS]

  older stuff that wasn't really that's [TS]

  still kind of very iOS 70 like there's [TS]

  there's all these different designs [TS]

  being followed now I'm not sure that [TS]

  modern Apple that that it's realistic to [TS]

  expect design coherency from them [TS]

  they're just too big there's too many [TS]

  things and and I think if there was any [TS]

  chance of design coherency it would [TS]

  happen now when design at Apple runs [TS]

  Apple like there is no more powerful [TS]

  department in Apple right now than in [TS]

  the design department they and they're a [TS]

  company that heavily prioritizes design [TS]

  it like heavily you know funds it with [TS]

  allocations of time and resources and [TS]

  everything else like if anybody could [TS]

  have a coherent design right now it's [TS]

  Apple and they don't I think the problem [TS]

  set is just too big now I don't think [TS]

  we're ever gonna see that kind of [TS]

  coherence like what we used to have [TS]

  again instead it's gonna be mostly left [TS]

  up to I think third parties to slowly [TS]

  evolve standards over over time that [TS]

  just kind of become you know the de [TS]

  facto standards and that's that's a much [TS]

  Messier and slower process but I think [TS]

  that's that's kind of what's gonna [TS]

  happen in reality I feel like the design [TS]

  department lately has not added any of [TS]

  new sort of standardized controls or [TS]

  standard you know standard interface [TS]

  elements they've mostly just been [TS]

  dressing up the ones that are there it's [TS]

  not as if iOS doesn't have these [TS]

  elements it doesn't again [TS]

  the same ones doesn't have a menu bar [TS]

  but just to give an example I don't mark [TS]

  out what tell him at the class name as a [TS]

  UI navigation controller the thing the [TS]

  the right-left thing with the back and [TS]

  done button I'm like that's been around [TS]

  since iOS since since iPhone OS 1.0 [TS]

  iPhone OS firmware 1.0 like the fact [TS]

  that you have at the top of the screen [TS]

  you had you know left-to-right sliding [TS]

  transition interface they used to have [TS]

  the little arrow shape on it or whatever [TS]

  that was a standard interface element [TS]

  that you know it was the same way any [TS]

  standard interface element works hey you [TS]

  don't have to write this GUI widget [TS]

  we've actually written it for you and it [TS]

  provides some important functionality so [TS]

  now you don't have to worry about that [TS]

  part of application if you decide you [TS]

  want your application to be like [TS]

  master/detail view and you and you go [TS]

  into the right and out to the left and [TS]

  you want to have cancel and done buttons [TS]

  or slightly like we've provided that [TS]

  control for you so don't bother writing [TS]

  it and by providing it for you we [TS]

  standardized the interface so think of [TS]

  all the applications from the day one of [TS]

  the iPhone that worked that way where [TS]

  the top part of the screen was for you [TS]

  to go back and forth and there was done [TS]

  and cancel buttons and arrows and stuff [TS]

  like that that's a standard element that [TS]

  interface element is still with us [TS]

  despite the fact on top of our phone [TS]

  it's like a mile and a half away now and [TS]

  and in the iOS 7 days they've jammed [TS]

  other crap up there like the little [TS]

  arrow thing which is always look super [TS]

  weird from a aesthetic point of view [TS]

  that little tiny you know go back to [TS]

  Safari we're just super convenient [TS]

  functionality wise but it shows that [TS]

  didn't really anything but still that [TS]

  one interface element does provide an [TS]

  important degree of consistency across [TS]

  all applications not just apples because [TS]

  it generally does look the same and it [TS]

  generally does kind of work the same and [TS]

  people know to look and look up there [TS]

  for stuff but again if there had really [TS]

  been design innovation design being how [TS]

  it works and not just how it looks at [TS]

  some point you have to rethink the fact [TS]

  the top of the phone is really far away [TS]

  and at some point you have to think [TS]

  about are there other standard interface [TS]

  elements that are appropriate and the [TS]

  age of twelve point nine inch iPads that [TS]

  we should introduce standard removable [TS]

  palettes or tab interfaces like in [TS]

  Safari on the iPad or anything like that [TS]

  just any kind of standard interface [TS]

  element that other applications can use [TS]

  that is appropriate for the modern iOS [TS]

  usage the more of those they can produce [TS]

  including perhaps standard icons or [TS]

  widgets for things like help or you know [TS]

  a quick way to get to settings for an [TS]

  application from within an application [TS]

  if they don't want to give up on the [TS]

  whole idea of settings being a separate [TS]

  app which I think it's also a dinosaur [TS]

  of a bygone era of much less RAM usage [TS]

  and also the whole you know we don't [TS]

  want anything in our application so hide [TS]

  all the complexity into another [TS]

  application that never worked by the way [TS]

  yeah a lot of stuff needs to be [TS]

  rethought about the design of iOS and [TS]

  almost none of it has to do with what [TS]

  applications look like I feel like we [TS]

  need we need more we need more help from [TS]

  the the OS and the foundational classes [TS]

  to get to the next level of [TS]

  functionality on iOS applications I [TS]

  think that's mostly true I think to go [TS]

  back a step though part of the reason [TS]

  that I think we haven't standardized on [TS]

  anyone like design or anyone like a set [TS]

  of iconography is because it didn't take [TS]

  long in my recollection starting you [TS]

  know with iPhone OS 2 it wasn't too long [TS]

  after that that it became kind of blase [TS]

  2 or maybe that's not the word I'm [TS]

  looking for but kind of gross to use [TS]

  vanilla UI kit for most of your app and [TS]

  I think that there's plenty of vanilla [TS]

  UI kit controls in any app but I mean [TS]

  looking at overcast is a great example [TS]

  there's plenty of Anila UI kit there but [TS]

  so much of it is hidden in so many [TS]

  different custom controls I mean look at [TS]

  the card interface Marco that you were [TS]

  rolling for a long time like that was [TS]

  completely and utterly custom and from [TS]

  what you said on the show and from what [TS]

  I've heard elsewhere you know you bent [TS]

  over backwards to do it and we can have [TS]

  a different discussion another time as [TS]

  to whether or not that was wise but the [TS]

  fact of the matter that I'm driving [TS]

  toward is that for better or worse one [TS]

  way or another in order to stand out on [TS]

  this ever more crowded App Store you [TS]

  need to have a more and more custom UI [TS]

  or at least in most cases that's the [TS]

  case I'm sure you could well actually me [TS]

  to death on this one but it seems to me [TS]

  that your average consumer be it design [TS]

  minded or otherwise tends to like things [TS]

  that are very opinionated and somewhat [TS]

  different I mean look at tweet bot is a [TS]

  great example of that I wouldn't say [TS]

  that I see a whole lot of vanilla UI [TS]

  Canton tweet bot but I would say that it [TS]

  looks like it belongs on the platform [TS]

  and it looks like it has its own [TS]

  personality and I would say the same of [TS]

  overcast actually and so I think because [TS]

  everyone was branching out in their own [TS]

  direction everyone [TS]

  creating their own personal or perhaps [TS]

  company-wide you know conventions and [TS]

  things I think that may be why we've [TS]

  splintered in so many different [TS]

  directions and that kind of bums me out [TS]

  partially because I'm really bad at [TS]

  customizing you like it to do weird [TS]

  things like Marco does but uh but it's [TS]

  it's understandable nevertheless because [TS]

  in this evermore crowded space you need [TS]

  to do something to stand out well you do [TS]

  need to be differentiated but that's [TS]

  separate from do you need to do like [TS]

  super custom controls like I think [TS]

  that's part of the skill of making an [TS]

  application in any platform is use [TS]

  standard controls but add some kind of [TS]

  branding and flair to them and and I [TS]

  think every application also needs at [TS]

  least one or two unique interface [TS]

  elements because it historically [TS]

  advances in the sort of quote/unquote [TS]

  standard UI have very often come from [TS]

  third parties like the first you know [TS]

  just look at pull-to-refresh for crying [TS]

  out loud on iOS but I was gonna do is a [TS]

  bunch of old Mac examples granted Mac [TS]

  paint seeded a lot of the the DNA of [TS]

  graphic applications across all GUI [TS]

  platforms but subsequent applications [TS]

  like you know illustrator and super [TS]

  paint and and Photoshop especially had [TS]

  their own innovations in UI that [TS]

  informed the whole rest of the the genre [TS]

  um and in the best case new interface [TS]

  elements whether they be tabs or [TS]

  whatever you know should eventually be [TS]

  co-opted by the OS and become standard [TS]

  control so I'm not saying Apple has to [TS]

  do it all but I think you can get away [TS]

  with having an application that is a [TS]

  hundred percent standard controls with a [TS]

  little bit of flair plus one or two [TS]

  things that totally don't look like [TS]

  standard controls even if they are under [TS]

  the covers that they give you want your [TS]

  app to have personality right like tweet [TS]

  bot has a personality and you wanted to [TS]

  have some some kind of differentiating [TS]

  thing like oh this is this feature the [TS]

  only this application has this UI [TS]

  element is fun to use flicking the thing [TS]

  away or whatever and if that's really a [TS]

  great idea [TS]

  a couple years down the line Apple [TS]

  should adapt the iOS interface say oh [TS]

  here's a way you can pop up sort of a [TS]

  thing on the screen and people can flick [TS]

  it away in a like physics-based you know [TS]

  fun kind of way [TS]

  if so many applications do that that [TS]

  should be a standard type thing and that [TS]

  that should be the feedback cycle I [TS]

  don't think you need to go even on iOS I [TS]

  don't think you need to go whole hog and [TS]

  say everything I do is custom it's [TS]

  basically a game like every one of my [TS]

  controls awesome because that's like I [TS]

  said it's too much differentiation [TS]

  because maybe like people still do like [TS]

  that but you're in for a world of hurt [TS]

  and I think it's not necessary you do [TS]

  want people to notice you but you don't [TS]

  need to like reinvent everything [TS]

  especially with the flexibility Apple [TS]

  gives you in most modern UI Kate [TS]

  controls you can really customize them [TS]

  to look almost nothing like what they [TS]

  what you would think they look like [TS]

  generic things like the collection [TS]

  abused and stuff where you have a lot of [TS]

  control over exactly what is drawn on [TS]

  the screen like you can make a [TS]

  collection view into something that no [TS]

  longer resembles a collection view at [TS]

  all with some cleverness right so I [TS]

  think I think app developers have the [TS]

  freedom to be differentiable staying on [TS]

  standard controls but I still think it's [TS]

  on Apple to see what's out there [TS]

  see what's popular see what's works and [TS]

  come up with some of their own [TS]

  innovations to give a better pallet of [TS]

  tools in the end the interface builder [TS]

  sense even if nobody uses that in iOS - [TS]

  I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say that [TS]

  well I don't know it's popular these [TS]

  days with the kids but - to be able to [TS]

  say I'm gonna make the next great iPad [TS]

  graphics application of which there are [TS]

  many and but I you know I don't want to [TS]

  have to invent everything from all cloth [TS]

  I want to you know I want Apple to help [TS]

  me here by saying oh are you gonna have [TS]

  floating palettes in your graphics [TS]

  application but we have a standard [TS]

  control for that because everyone seems [TS]

  to be making their own all the way down [TS]

  to all the little experiments speaking [TS]

  of Steve trout and Smith earlier of like [TS]

  floating with quote/unquote Windows or [TS]

  whatever stuff like that if it comes [TS]

  from a third-party application first and [TS]

  its popular fine but that's exactly the [TS]

  type of stuff that Apple should be [TS]

  looking into trying to figure out a more [TS]

  sophisticated bucket of parts for people [TS]

  to build their fancy iOS applications [TS]

  out of yeah and I think it's it's also [TS]

  worth pointing out like the timing of [TS]

  talking about this now I think is [TS]

  interesting because the iPhone 10 I [TS]

  think really changes a lot of [TS]

  how things in iOS should be designed you [TS]

  know again it's this isn't news I'll go [TS]

  boy I'll be quick but like we have now [TS]

  like culminated this this this trend [TS]

  that we've been going on for a little [TS]

  while now with the plus phones we're now [TS]

  a lot of iOS interfaces have critical [TS]

  functions and buttons and things on the [TS]

  top area of the screen which is now very [TS]

  hard to reach for a lot of people a lot [TS]

  of the time on a lot of devices and so [TS]

  this is like a fundamental thing that so [TS]

  much of iOS design has been based on [TS]

  putting important controls in those top [TS]

  corners and now that should be rethought [TS]

  I'm sure Apple is feeling this too [TS]

  I'm sure they are thinking about this [TS]

  and are hopefully working on this but [TS]

  this is also a time where they have a [TS]

  lot of software quality problems that [TS]

  they have to like slow down on the like [TS]

  move forward aggressively side of things [TS]

  to let the quality catch up really we've [TS]

  heard rumblings here and there that [TS]

  maybe there was some kind of iOS 12 [TS]

  redesign plan but then maybe that's been [TS]

  pushed to next year and next version of [TS]

  iOS because of the of the quality push [TS]

  that seems reasonable to me [TS]

  and so assuming that either it's coming [TS]

  this year or next year I do expect Apple [TS]

  is probably working on a big iOS [TS]

  redesign to better accommodate the [TS]

  iPhone 10 not to mention that I just [TS]

  think you should need to update the look [TS]

  and feel of it to just be you know fresh [TS]

  and and new and no longer iOS 7 stale [TS]

  but I do expect that to happen soon I [TS]

  hope it does and even if even if it's [TS]

  next year for quality reasons that's [TS]

  fine with me [TS]

  I really would love to see what Apple [TS]

  has in mind for a coherent direction to [TS]

  bring iOS in now I hope we get that I [TS]

  don't think it's a sure thing that we [TS]

  will ever get that because of what I [TS]

  said earlier but I hope we get that [TS]

  whether it's this year next and I really [TS]

  look forward to seeing what they think [TS]

  the direction is I hope it's not just [TS]

  for the iPhone 10 because I think as [TS]

  much as the iPhone 10 needs it [TS]

  because things really are farther away [TS]

  from your thumb they ever have been it's [TS]

  not like the plus ones have been around [TS]

  for a while but I feel like the iPad [TS]

  needs it more because I do see a lot of [TS]

  people I mean a lot of us gravitations [TS]

  use with the pencil but I see a lot of [TS]

  increasingly sophisticated applications [TS]

  on the iPad and they all still look like [TS]

  games to me in terms of the interface I [TS]

  see very little consistency among them [TS]

  everybody having to roll their own [TS]

  controls for everything which increases [TS]

  the barrier to entry for good graphics [TS]

  applications like I just think of [TS]

  something like acorn which I'm sure has [TS]

  some custom interface elements but in [TS]

  general it's using app kit to its [TS]

  fullest effect taking advantage of all [TS]

  the controls Apple gives to design an [TS]

  interface doesn't look like other [TS]

  graphics application interfaces but it [TS]

  looks Mac like you know how it's going [TS]

  to work and the fact that I mean both on [TS]

  the front end on the back end that a [TS]

  corner is able to leverage the [TS]

  frameworks that apple provides for UI [TS]

  and for image processing itself allows a [TS]

  one-person software shop to make a [TS]

  graphics application that is basically [TS]

  like a mini Photoshop that's that's the [TS]

  platform advantage that Apple should be [TS]

  selling come develop on our platform [TS]

  look what a single person can do it's [TS]

  unbelievable on on the iPad I feel like [TS]

  maybe it's the only three people teams [TS]

  but I feel like it just looks like a [TS]

  hell of a lot of work to make a top-tier [TS]

  iPad graphics application and that when [TS]

  you're done you have unless you exactly [TS]

  ape your competitors interface you have [TS]

  little chance of being familiar to the [TS]

  users of your competitors product so [TS]

  your pitches now use my application [TS]

  which has fewer features and by the way [TS]

  the interface looks nothing like your [TS]

  interface and it works totally [TS]

  differently so come learn from scratch [TS]

  it's a tough sell we are sponsored this [TS]

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