0:00:00John how are you let's lighten the mood
0:00:01how's things going with you John I'm
0:00:03tired I'm exhausted you guys are making
0:00:05any more exhaustion I seem to have
0:00:10become the authority on not seeing easy
0:00:14solutions to my problems so if somebody
0:00:18didn't tell you about our sink now I
0:00:20have heard about our sink and I actually
0:00:22have used it for years literally years
0:00:24but that's not the issue um I've been
0:00:27working on an app that I don't
0:00:28particularly want to talk about these
0:00:29specifics on the show but suffice to say
0:00:32it relates to health kit which already
0:00:34means I'm kind of treading on
0:00:35underscores waters actually but whatever
0:00:37so I asked him you know hey is there any
0:00:41way to export health kit data and bring
0:00:45it into the simulator because I prefer
0:00:47to do most of my development against
0:00:48simulator because it's quicker and
0:00:49easier so I need a whole bunch of health
0:00:51get data on on the simulator and I was
0:00:54like man is there any way to export it
0:00:55then like important places there's
0:00:57somewhere on the file system or
0:00:58something like that that I can do this
0:01:00and in in the most polite way which is
0:01:03underscores you know mo in the most
0:01:05polite way he said to me these are my
0:01:07words mind you you freaking idiot you
0:01:09can get on iCloud on the simulator just
0:01:12join your accounts on iCloud I don't
0:01:15know you could do that you'll see but I
0:01:17did know that you could do that but I
0:01:19didn't put two and two together but this
0:01:20is where it gets real bad and I
0:01:21shouldn't share this publicly but here I
0:01:22am he said I said to him but underscore
0:01:26here's the thing I want to be able to
0:01:28like save things to health kit but I
0:01:30don't want them to actually save too you
0:01:33know like the canonical instance of
0:01:35health kids so in other words if I save
0:01:37I don't know like in at like a workout
0:01:39which is not actually what this app does
0:01:41but for the sake of conversation I save
0:01:42a workout I don't want it to go to like
0:01:44my actual canonical health kit I don't
0:01:48know identity for lack of a better word
0:01:50a repository I want that to kind of just
0:01:52live alone on the simulator so without
0:01:54batting an eye underscore says so sign
0:01:57out of iCloud like two weeks away from
0:02:05having an arm full of Apple watches like
0:02:07underscore does you know this is such
0:02:11easy solution why do I not see these
0:02:13things I maybe I'm just a really crummy
0:02:15developer and I don't realize it but uh
0:02:18golly like I don't think I'm an
0:02:19exceptionally great developer but I
0:02:20didn't think I was that bad of a
0:02:22developer why don't why don't I see
0:02:24these things why can't I why can't i
0:02:25recognize this
0:02:26so everyone hire KC for your development
0:02:28[Laughter]
0:02:31that's the trick that's the ticket right
0:02:34there you really do a good job at
0:02:35selling yourself this is why I don't
0:02:37want to this is why I don't want to be
0:02:38an independent consultant I love that
0:02:41you you keep I heard your episode of
0:02:43analog it was very good last episode of
0:02:45analog where Mike talk to you through a
0:02:47lot of this stuff which I highly suggest
0:02:48anyway everybody listen to just because
0:02:51it's a good show to begin with but also
0:02:52if you're interested in our arc of
0:02:54trying to convince Casey to you know go
0:02:56out on his own somehow it was a very
0:02:58good episode and and and I think and we
0:03:01even got we got this like two thousand
0:03:02word email that it does seem like your
0:03:07heart is not really in consulting like
0:03:08it does seem like you don't really care
0:03:10to do it right and that's the thing
0:03:11that's the thing then you know fine I'm
0:03:14not gonna I'm not gonna push that
0:03:15anymore because to do anything like that
0:03:18you have to you have to be a little more
0:03:20into it then than what you are so that's
0:03:22what I'm not gonna happen so okay I'll
0:03:24stop pushing that button I do however
0:03:26think it's hilarious that you keep
0:03:28trying to trade in these like these ways
0:03:30that you can immediately get a lot of
0:03:31money for things that take like years to
0:03:34build up to a livable wage like I think
0:03:36I'm gonna start a YouTube app and making
0:03:38small indie apps or YouTube channel
0:03:42rather excuse me yeah that's indie
0:03:43success right there guaranteed everyone
0:03:46is making money hand over fist in the
0:03:48App Store on YouTube there's no way for
0:03:51this to be for this to be a disaster
0:03:52right here's what you do you get five
0:03:54envelopes in each one you put $5 you
0:03:56mail the top two to these people then
0:03:58you mail it a whole buncha letter so
0:03:59it's like it's like this like like if
0:04:03you started doing these things ten years
0:04:05ago you might now have enough to live on
0:04:07exactly these are slow slow buildings
0:04:10slow like it takes a while
0:04:12[Laughter]
0:04:14that's so true I don't know I don't know
0:04:17I have been waffling about this Erin and
0:04:19I have been talking a lot about this and
0:04:21and I I not in
0:04:23in an angry way like I'm not upset about
0:04:24it at all but I'm I I don't want to talk
0:04:26about anymore at this particular moment
0:04:28because I feel like all I've been doing
0:04:29stressing about it for the last month
0:04:30and a half but I have such conflicted
0:04:33and mixed thoughts that I don't know
0:04:36what to do and it's like you know I
0:04:38think your your assessment is accurate
0:04:41that the idea of just $10.99 in my way
0:04:43through life that is to say being an
0:04:45independent consultant like there are
0:04:48ways in which I think that would be fun
0:04:49like let's say for the sake of
0:04:51discussion I can I can wave my magic
0:04:52wand and I can have you give me
0:04:56I don't know between 5 and 10 hours of
0:04:57work a week I can have underscore give
0:04:59me 5 to 10 hours of work a week I can
0:05:01have some of my other independent you
0:05:03know app developers like you know jelly
0:05:05who works on gift-wrapped which if you
0:05:06believe in animated gifs at all you
0:05:08should have or you know Curtis who works
0:05:10on slopes as another example which if
0:05:12you believe in skiing or snowboarding
0:05:13you should have that app you know if any
0:05:16of these people if all of you guys an
0:05:18underscore of course you know if you
0:05:19guys could each you know shave off 5 to
0:05:2210 hours each then then I could probably
0:05:24make a living but the idea of just like
0:05:26going out and chasing random people for
0:05:28work and random businesses for work it's
0:05:29just just the thought of is it it is
0:05:31extremely tiring and that's not to say
0:05:34that that's bad or wrong or anything
0:05:36else it's just I don't see your point
0:05:38Marco I don't think my heart is in
0:05:40chasing chasing work from random people
0:05:42and and I mean that in a nasty way just
0:05:45in in in an observational way so well I
0:05:47do wonder though I think the the part of
0:05:49that of the 2,000 word email that we got
0:05:52that was mostly a little bit off-putting
0:05:54but the part of it I thought was was
0:05:56interesting and potentially a good path
0:05:58to consider is the part where the author
0:06:01says that you know clearly your heart's
0:06:03not in consulting which I think was true
0:06:05but that maybe you should consider being
0:06:09like the Swift person like yes and who
0:06:12has been a lot of instructional Swift
0:06:14content like you know granted that's a
0:06:16very crowded market there's a lot of
0:06:17people who have been doing a lot of
0:06:18instructional Swift content for a long
0:06:20time
0:06:21but you also already have an existing
0:06:24audience of developers which is pretty
0:06:26good like that's that's a pretty good
0:06:28advantage to start with and and so you
0:06:30do have a bit of an unfair advantage
0:06:31there which you can used you know to
0:06:34your advantage the other thing I would
0:06:35say is
0:06:37if it when when talking about like you
0:06:39know who you could get consulting work
0:06:40from don't do like me and underscore and
0:06:44Curtis like we're all indie developers
0:06:46working on indie budgets like yeah I
0:06:48know it's like we're the worst people to
0:06:50have trying to get consulting work for
0:06:51because we can barely afford employees
0:06:54like I think Margaret has pre fired you
0:06:56I thought I might give him some hours if
0:06:59he did this but like but you know I I'm
0:07:02in a position that most in these are not
0:07:03and and even I you know I couldn't
0:07:05afford you full time although okay can I
0:07:08just say publicly that it may be worth
0:07:12maybe not the money but worth the
0:07:14experience for both of us
0:07:16to watch me have to slum it an
0:07:18objective-c land and watch you have to
0:07:20slum it and deal with an employee like
0:07:21that would be hilarious on many
0:07:24different levels the really interesting
0:07:26reality show it would be the least
0:07:30interesting but perhaps most funny cards
0:07:32against humanity' to sponsor yeah right
0:07:35but seriously like you don't let me
0:07:38speak for you but I have the feeling
0:07:40like even with me and I like to think I
0:07:42get a little bit of special privilege
0:07:43here you have no interest in having
0:07:45anyone as like an employee in any
0:07:48capacity and although I don't have any
0:07:50real angst against Objective C I have
0:07:53let's say I feel like it's a little bit
0:07:55old and a little bit tired I mean that's
0:07:57what could be said for all of us right
0:07:59well that that's fair you do bad you'd
0:08:05like you you send me off to work on some
0:08:06bug fix and I like rewrite an entire
0:08:08class and Swift and try to pass that by
0:08:10I wouldn't do that for several different
0:08:11reasons but just was take a discussion
0:08:13like I write this entire class I rewrite
0:08:14the entire class and Swift like here you
0:08:16go here you go Marco this is good right
0:08:17you just look at this not like what
0:08:19I could just settle all this money on
0:08:22fire by making you write unit tests well
0:08:25I don't know if it on fire I almost
0:08:27walked into that you bastard you're more
0:08:32right than you are wrong you big jerk we
0:08:36should get started
0:08:37slash continue with talking about how
0:08:39Siri is all up in front of the show
0:08:42Daniel jelq it's business so who who
0:08:44added this the show notes can tell me
0:08:46what's going on I added the
0:08:48here's the first account I read of I
0:08:50think a story that I've heard from a lot
0:08:52of people now as he relates to home pod
0:08:53it's that you've got this thing in your
0:08:56house and unfortunately it has the same
0:08:59trigger phrase as a bunch of other
0:09:00things that you might also have in your
0:09:03house so once you get past the you know
0:09:06being amazed that it can hear you over
0:09:08the odd music or whatever and you just
0:09:09happen to be in your house and you talk
0:09:11to some device that may or may not be
0:09:13your home pod and your home pod decides
0:09:16oh I can totally hear you and I'm gonna
0:09:19take this for you hang on I got it and
0:09:21Apple has this thing where if multiple
0:09:24devices are around and you say the
0:09:25trigger word they negotiate amongst each
0:09:27other to figure out who's gonna answer
0:09:28but home pod will grab a request that it
0:09:33can't handle just to tell you that it
0:09:36can't do that all right so that it would
0:09:38have worked if it was on your phone but
0:09:40home pods grabs it maybe because it has
0:09:42better microphones or because it like it
0:09:44takes priority or whatever and then it
0:09:45grabs it and says oh yeah no I totally
0:09:47can't do that sorry about that so that's
0:09:50not that's not nice behavior and a lot
0:09:52of people have complained about that and
0:09:53it's kind of another situation where
0:09:55apples had a few of these where like
0:09:57their best customers are more likely to
0:10:02run into these complex problems right
0:10:05Apple wants you to have a household of
0:10:07Apple devices you got Macs and iPads and
0:10:08phones and everybody should have one and
0:10:10they should be all over the place and
0:10:11yet if you do that you run into all the
0:10:14situations in which apple doesn't handle
0:10:15a houseful of devices we've talked
0:10:17before about the you know families
0:10:19sharing you know iCloud and photos
0:10:22accounts you know the before the family
0:10:25plans for iCloud storage existed before
0:10:27was a while before Siri could understand
0:10:30different people and you had to do the
0:10:31training and everything so now can
0:10:33distinguish voices well here's another
0:10:34growing pane of the multi Apple device
0:10:38lifestyle if you've got multiple things
0:10:40in your house listening for the same
0:10:41trigger phrase it's great that they
0:10:42didn't go she ate with each other it's
0:10:43not so great that the negotiation
0:10:45results in the worst possible device
0:10:48answering your question I mean the funny
0:10:50thing is like in many ways it's actually
0:10:52rewards you if you're a person who has
0:10:54not gotten into the hey Siri ecosystem
0:10:56like if you like like me like I I don't
0:10:58leave it on my phones I tried
0:11:01because I have like my iPad that just
0:11:02sits in the kitchen all day for the most
0:11:04part and I figured like maybe I could
0:11:06use that the way I use the Amazon echo
0:11:08like maybe I could set timers and stuff
0:11:09using using hey Siri on the iPad and
0:11:11I've tried that and it's terrible so I'd
0:11:13never do it but oh crap my development
0:11:17phones why you saying it see how nicely
0:11:21I said trigger phrase like 9 times so
0:11:23you're just rattling on them off and now
0:11:24you're being punished no the rule is if
0:11:26Phil Schiller can go on the talk show
0:11:27and say hey Siri in front of everybody
0:11:28have it not have nothing go off then I
0:11:30can do it on on a podcast but he's got a
0:11:32computerized chip in his throat that
0:11:33masks and says if Isis won't pick it up
0:11:35yeah like the Amazon echo ads in the
0:11:38Superbowl by the way that's that Amazon
0:11:40echo method where you cut out the 3
0:11:41kilohertz thing I played with that I
0:11:42could not reproduce that I could not get
0:11:44that to actually work and that post was
0:11:46like a year old so I'm guessing it's
0:11:47it's not did you see that I tweeted
0:11:49something there's some paper about how
0:11:50you can make basically any spoken phrase
0:11:52be interpreted by speech recognition
0:11:54engine as any other phrase that you want
0:11:57you have to know the details of the
0:11:59recognition engine but of course Amazon
0:12:00does know the details it's pretty neat
0:12:02it does you can notice that it's been
0:12:03modified like there's noise added but
0:12:05it's fascinating and terrifying that you
0:12:07can have the audio say anything you want
0:12:09and have the transcription say an
0:12:10entirely different phrase yeah yeah
0:12:12anyway so the point is like if you are a
0:12:14a home pod person you actually have a
0:12:17pretty good reason right now to disable
0:12:19the hey dingus feature on as many
0:12:22devices you can get away with it because
0:12:24it's like like if you don't end up using
0:12:26that much like if you're if you're
0:12:27willing to just hit the button on things
0:12:29you're way better off having that often
0:12:31lots of devices because that way you
0:12:32won't have this problem where the home
0:12:34pod grabs it when it's actually not the
0:12:36device that either you want or that even
0:12:38can handle the requestor giving it could
0:12:41add a good story to it he was using he
0:12:43was timers for like a midday meditation
0:12:45and the home pod grabbed the you know
0:12:47please set a timer for whatever we're
0:12:49just fine you know whatever and you can
0:12:50set a timer for me but unlike the device
0:12:53Cindy normally that he was trying to
0:12:55talk to his his watch they're like taps
0:12:56you when like your time is up
0:12:58then the home pod would speak out loud
0:13:01about setting the timer and about one a
0:13:03time one offer really kind of harsh your
0:13:05mellow when you're trying to meditate so
0:13:07yeah that's the intentionality of what
0:13:10you want like if you talk to your wrist
0:13:12despite the fact that the home pod can
0:13:14you just fine and like quote-unquote
0:13:15wins the contest and it can support
0:13:17timers it doesn't understand that you
0:13:20were talking to your wrist anyone
0:13:21looking at you would know you were
0:13:22talking to your wrist because they'd see
0:13:23you doing that but the home pod can't
0:13:25see you maybe just needs cameras Wow but
0:13:29on a happier note tell us about the
0:13:31Sonos and wood furniture that's not
0:13:33happy it's sad but yeah so no said I'm
0:13:37sure lots of other audio and non audio
0:13:39products that have the same feet made of
0:13:42the same or similar material that like
0:13:44soaks up the oil from the wood and
0:13:46everything can also leave marks and I
0:13:49think that's terrible I think that you
0:13:51know again I said on a live show I
0:13:53understand that it's important to have
0:13:54something vibration absorbing down there
0:13:56for audio performance but I have to
0:13:58believe there is some substance on the
0:14:00planet that is both squishy and does not
0:14:03absorb oil from wood furniture leaving
0:14:06rings or marks of any kind so shame on
0:14:08Sonos shame on Apple and I believe we
0:14:11have a technology to solve this we were
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0:15:59show where's the home pod because I know
0:16:04I don't and that's a no small part
0:16:06because I friggin hate Siri Marco I do
0:16:08not although that's in partially small
0:16:11part because I've been traveling so I
0:16:12wasn't actually anywhere where I could
0:16:14buy one I have still thought about maybe
0:16:16put it on the counter one day I want to
0:16:18know actually I was thinking like
0:16:20because I know like some of our friends
0:16:21like Merlin are very positive about the
0:16:24echo is that the spot the little
0:16:27circular one I think that's right yeah I
0:16:29was I was wondering maybe I could try
0:16:31one of those because the one the one
0:16:32reason I got the echo show for a day and
0:16:36then returned it promptly was that I
0:16:37really would like to see the progress of
0:16:39the timer's counting down while cooking
0:16:41you know right now I could just I just
0:16:44asked the echo hey timer status but it's
0:16:46you know ideally I could watch them or
0:16:48see them you know without having to ask
0:16:51something have it hear it over the fan
0:16:52on the stove and then you know so anyway
0:16:55so I was thinking maybe I could get an
0:16:57echo spot put it on the little counter
0:16:59right next to where we cook and then
0:17:01have the home pod on like the kind of
0:17:05like transitional counter to the big
0:17:07great room and dining room area where
0:17:09that's where the music should come from
0:17:10so I thought about that but I don't know
0:17:12I still I still think I want to wait it
0:17:16just seems like there's so many like 1.0
0:17:18limitations and little annoyances here
0:17:20and there that people are having and
0:17:22also I got I'm not that hot on Siri so I
0:17:26think I'm gonna wait a little bit or
0:17:28until I have a really good reason for
0:17:30overcast development oh we can hope we
0:17:33can hope how about you John I actually
0:17:36got something for Marco mark it on your
0:17:38calendar
0:17:39you got the whole
0:17:40got a home pod yeah just one just one uh
0:17:44which actually more than one would have
0:17:47been cool but anyway I did I I knew I
0:17:49had a place for it because I don't I put
0:17:51it in the same room that I have my
0:17:52Google home Mini which I got for free as
0:17:55part of some other purchase and of
0:17:56course you did never one play audio on
0:17:57all right so there's competition for it
0:18:00in terms of answering questions and in
0:18:02general I think I'll probably still ask
0:18:05questions to the Google home mini mostly
0:18:07about who stars in movies that I'm
0:18:09watching on television well I'm watching
0:18:11them and yes I know that lots of
0:18:12applications on Apple TV can do that for
0:18:16you
0:18:17some of them like I think the Amazon
0:18:18won't even if you just pause it will
0:18:20show you like who's on screen right now
0:18:21so be aware of that but but anyway I
0:18:24find myself asking questions of the
0:18:26Google home mostly because force of
0:18:30habit
0:18:31but I don't really have anything in that
0:18:33room that can play good audio that is
0:18:37always on I do have
0:18:39okay speakers attached to my TV but
0:18:41usually that whole receiver and
0:18:42everything is off when someone's not
0:18:43watching TV so it's nice to have
0:18:46something in there that you know it
0:18:49sounds okay and that I can both speak to
0:18:52to make it play something and in a pinch
0:18:54airplay too so I subscribe to Apple
0:18:56music I tried to do like some family
0:18:58trial thing or whatever I still assume I
0:18:59will unsubscribe eventually but I wanted
0:19:02to give it a fair shot to say I want to
0:19:03be able to just speak to the air and
0:19:05have it play music and it sounds pretty
0:19:08good
0:19:08no I didn't put it on the coaster it is
0:19:10sitting on top of my furniture but I
0:19:12don't have any nice furniture in my life
0:19:14period so I don't have to worry about it
0:19:17let me see like my dining room tables
0:19:20okay but anyway I don't have a nice
0:19:22furniture for the most part so I don't
0:19:23have to worry about it leaving rings
0:19:24it's sitting on top of what I assume is
0:19:26a computer printed photograph of wood
0:19:29you know transferred onto some kind of
0:19:31aluminum powder cover with the plastic
0:19:33dust crappy piece of furniture that I
0:19:37have I tried it in a bunch of different
0:19:39positions to see how it would adjust its
0:19:41sound
0:19:42couldn't tell much of a difference you
0:19:45know
0:19:46I couldn't tell whether it was just
0:19:48thing it's sound or whether just sound
0:19:49different because it was in a different
0:19:50place I do have a kind of near a corner
0:19:52which i think is not great for Bumi
0:19:54but I really it's really the best place
0:19:56I have for the thing I got white mostly
0:20:00because I couldn't decide and so I asked
0:20:01my son he picked white which I think is
0:20:03a reasonable choice because all the
0:20:04other things are white as well in terms
0:20:08of filling the room with sound tell that
0:20:11it's a point source like that's why I
0:20:13mentioned I could get two of them might
0:20:14be better even if it wasn't just stereo
0:20:17like I can tell the sound is coming from
0:20:19that part of the room but of course you
0:20:20expected to be able to tell that like
0:20:22it's not it's not magic but it is let's
0:20:25put it this way it is less enveloping
0:20:27than the 5.1 system that I have on my TV
0:20:30and yeah I probably sounds better than
0:20:31the 5.1 system but the 5.1 system
0:20:33surrounds the room so when I play you
0:20:36know find out actually open those times
0:20:38I play music like during Christmas Eve
0:20:40like Christmas music when you're like
0:20:41decorating the tree or on Christmas Day
0:20:42or whatever it's nice to have it come
0:20:44from all around and maybe I'll still do
0:20:46that but it's in the room I talked to it
0:20:49my my like out of box experience was not
0:20:52the greatest because you go and you set
0:20:54up a thing it shows a little picture of
0:20:55the home pod you like yes set up and you
0:20:57know you go through the whole thing
0:20:59everything seems fine and then you can
0:21:03go to the home app to control the device
0:21:07or to do something I know I'd never even
0:21:08launched my life so I launched the whole
0:21:09map and there's my home pod that I just
0:21:11set up and just got a big red message on
0:21:13it that says like not responding it was
0:21:15like that for is like what do you mean
0:21:16not responding the thing is right there
0:21:18I'm talking to it it's working fine how
0:21:19can you tell me it's not responding
0:21:21eventually it started responding and I
0:21:24saw you can tap on it to like pause the
0:21:25music and tap again to unpause and write
0:21:27whatever and then like 15 minutes later
0:21:30launched the home application again to
0:21:32try to pause it from a different room
0:21:33and there was a little spinner on it
0:21:35like the little dodd spinner and the
0:21:37spinner just spun there and it just spun
0:21:39for like five minutes since I closed the
0:21:41home app not you know what I don't know
0:21:43what the deal with that is I don't know
0:21:44what its problem was seems to work now
0:21:46not a great experience just one of those
0:21:48kind of like oh sometimes Apple stuff
0:21:50doesn't work you do have to wait those
0:21:52kind of kind of depressing I did all the
0:21:56experiments everyone else did turn the
0:21:57volume real loud talk to it it's
0:21:59impressive how well I can hear you I was
0:22:01not impressed with how quickly it
0:22:03executed my commands it shows the most
0:22:07when you're telling it to
0:22:08playing a song because I do that all the
0:22:10time with the with the Google home side
0:22:12because my kids make them play things
0:22:13and I want them to stop immediately
0:22:14right so this is probably my most common
0:22:17interaction I mean these devices tell it
0:22:18to stop playing whatever audio it's
0:22:20currently playing and the home pod will
0:22:22do it but a little bit more lag than
0:22:25there is when I'm telling any of the
0:22:26Gould devices the Google devices like as
0:22:28soon as I get the word out of my mouth
0:22:29it's like boom the audio cuts off the
0:22:31home pod seems like I have to think
0:22:33about it for a half a second or so and I
0:22:35find that a little bit annoying
0:22:36considering it's much more expensive
0:22:37than the other ones so yeah not no real
0:22:42surprises are the only thing that I
0:22:44didn't anticipate is how angry my
0:22:47children would get when they try to talk
0:22:48to it using the Google's trigger phrase
0:22:51so they're constantly saying you know
0:22:54okay Google or whatever to try to make
0:22:56it do things especially again if it's in
0:22:58the middle of something and one kid
0:22:59wants to stop it playing audio play a
0:23:00different one they're yelling at it to
0:23:01be and this of the odd so the Google
0:23:03thing is answering them at this you know
0:23:04trying to play music at the same time
0:23:06it's like you have to talk to but it's
0:23:08like what they don't understand why you
0:23:10would have to use a different phrase I
0:23:11mean I guess you can explain like it's
0:23:13not a Google thing or whatever but
0:23:14that's stupid so yeah so I have I have
0:23:20such mixed feelings about this so we got
0:23:22a letter from Tim routers in in Tim said
0:23:26I see some funny parallels between Apple
0:23:28product launches even with you guys with
0:23:30respect to home pod in your latest
0:23:32episodes and Tim enumerates a bunch of
0:23:35things in and I'll try to summarize his
0:23:37summary so in when the iPod was released
0:23:39in 2001 you know it enters an existing
0:23:42market of mp3 players oh there's no
0:23:44wireless so there's less space no Nomad
0:23:45lame iPhone oh it's ridiculously
0:23:47expensive it isn't a physical keyboard
0:23:48no cop cut copy paste no 3G etc etc home
0:23:52pod well it's ridiculously expensive it
0:23:54doesn't do multi-room audio doesn't do
0:23:55stereo doesn't do multi users fearless
0:23:57serious is severely limited etc so Tim's
0:24:01point as he continues I'm assuming he
0:24:03continues every time Apple blitter
0:24:06eights critics with its relentless focus
0:24:07on continuous improvement so in so many
0:24:10words why isn't home pod the same thing
0:24:11all over again well I mean I don't think
0:24:14it's fair to assume that every Apple
0:24:17product that is a kind of weird or if he
0:24:19or delayed or incomplete one point oh
0:24:22we'll like you know grow up to be an
0:24:23awesome 2.0 or 3.0 4.0 like the initial
0:24:26iPod was really expensive and it was
0:24:29pretty limited especially cuz it was
0:24:30like Mac only at the time like it was
0:24:32there were reasons to be skeptical of
0:24:34the initial iPod and that market wasn't
0:24:37really proven yet whereas you know over
0:24:40time they did make it great and it was
0:24:42very successful the original iPhone was
0:24:46too expensive for a lot of people that
0:24:47original one did not sell nearly as many
0:24:49as the follow-up models but you know
0:24:51over time they made the iPhone
0:24:53ridiculously great I mean in my opinion
0:24:55was pretty great from day one but it
0:24:57they made it more successful and more
0:24:58mass-market as time went on but like
0:25:01look at the Apple watch the first
0:25:04version the Apple watch was barely
0:25:06usable it was really a pretty mediocre
0:25:09product it had lots of problems lost
0:25:11limitations lots of weird and bad design
0:25:13choices they did it iterate that over
0:25:16time but most of that iteration happened
0:25:18with the help of additional hardware
0:25:20generations and a couple of years of
0:25:23software generations that doesn't mean
0:25:25that we were wrong to criticize the
0:25:27Apple watch 1.0 the Apple watch 1.0
0:25:30needed a lot of criticism the home pod I
0:25:33think is gonna be more like that but
0:25:36although I think it's probably starting
0:25:38from a better place you know the home
0:25:40pod is clearly at one point there's lots
0:25:42of missing features there's lots of
0:25:43things that are a little bit wonky or
0:25:45don't quite work the way people want
0:25:47them to but I do expect over time for
0:25:50the home pod to get significantly better
0:25:52that doesn't mean that this home pod
0:25:54will get necessarily a better life that
0:25:55might require new hardware so I think it
0:25:57is fair to criticize this one and the
0:25:59other side of this is that a lot of the
0:26:04criticism about the home pod today is a
0:26:07bath Siri and the limitations of Siri
0:26:09and inferior performance in some areas
0:26:13of Siri I don't think we can reasonably
0:26:17assume that's going to get better at at
0:26:19the same kind of pace that we're used to
0:26:21seeing Apple products get better with
0:26:23when you're mainly waiting on like
0:26:25hardware advances like we need the CPU
0:26:28in this thing to get faster that's gonna
0:26:30happen that's you know that that's kind
0:26:32of a sure thing to happen you know one
0:26:34to two years after the launch of
0:26:35version 1 of pretty much anything that
0:26:37Apple makes when you're when you're
0:26:39worried about like the local device
0:26:41software getting better like apples
0:26:42pretty good at local device software
0:26:44there's some flaws here and there but
0:26:45they're pretty good at it but Siri is
0:26:47not new and has gotten better at a
0:26:51glacial pace and in many ways has the
0:26:55same problems to it as it did when it
0:26:56launched like seven years ago I don't
0:26:58necessarily think it's a reasonable
0:27:01assumption that the home pods flaws that
0:27:04are Siri related are about to get better
0:27:06or gonna get better in two years I
0:27:09actually don't think that's a safe
0:27:10assumption I would love that to be the
0:27:12case but the track record of serious so
0:27:14far is is pretty slow progress and
0:27:18certain types of things that basically
0:27:20are always problems I don't see that
0:27:23changing quickly at least not as a sure
0:27:26thing so I think it is reasonable to
0:27:29criticize home pod 1.0 for no one to be
0:27:31making fun of us for criticizing the
0:27:33things that are actually wrong with it
0:27:34today and also to be a little skeptical
0:27:37of Siri improvements being meaningful
0:27:40that are coming anytime soon the funny
0:27:42thing about this is is that Siri murder
0:27:45at least my understanding the
0:27:46implementation of Siri is one of the few
0:27:48things that Apple could actually tweak
0:27:49on their end without a software update
0:27:51right like they can make tweaks to Siri
0:27:54server-side and they can do that at any
0:27:57time and obviously that's not a
0:27:58universal thing but generally speaking
0:27:59they can make Siri a lot better without
0:28:02having to do any sort of software update
0:28:03locally and so here's the one place
0:28:05where Apple is most well equipped to
0:28:08make changes and yet I completely agree
0:28:10with you Marco that Siri has gotten
0:28:12potentially even worse than when it was
0:28:15new no it's not worse than it definitely
0:28:18and they started out pretty bad it
0:28:19definitely is better and and it is
0:28:21getting better but it's getting better
0:28:23at a very slow pace and it still is you
0:28:27know it gains new abilities you know
0:28:30about once a year which is not
0:28:32frequently enough it you know gains like
0:28:34new abilities about once a year but it
0:28:35is not it seems like it hit a plateau of
0:28:39reliability like roughly in year two or
0:28:42three and hasn't really gotten more
0:28:45reliable since then yeah the point I'm
0:28:48driving at though is that
0:28:49it's weird to me that this is the one
0:28:50place where Apple could really you know
0:28:52ship fast ship ship off and and and they
0:28:55don't and it really bums me out and man
0:28:58I have so many angry thoughts about Siri
0:29:00that we'll probably get to next that I'm
0:29:01just gonna leave for now but I agree
0:29:04with pretty much everything you just
0:29:05said
0:29:05John so when you read this I think we
0:29:09got all of it from the email and so I
0:29:11think this like we didn't leave out any
0:29:13examples and basically the only two
0:29:15examples are iPod and iPhone the gist of
0:29:16the email is you know why do you doubt
0:29:19Apple like they haven't they proven the
0:29:20doubters wrong right doesn't you know
0:29:23the last night history proves you wrong
0:29:24doesn't it right well I think to start
0:29:28we have to say whatever whatever a
0:29:29logical fallacy or statistical bias that
0:29:32is you know you cherry picked like it's
0:29:33a ipod an iPhone as two examples yes yes
0:29:37there's the you know the famous
0:29:38was it Rob motive of Slashdot anyone
0:29:41remember slash time yeah no I probably
0:29:43know where I let's let's paste in
0:29:44nomadland that's what that quote is and
0:29:46that people lots of people doubted the
0:29:47iPhone right those are like the apples
0:29:51two biggest products have for the Mac so
0:29:53yeah you can pick them and say there
0:29:54were doubters there were doubters for
0:29:56ping two that didn't go anywhere
0:29:59there were doubters for the iPod Hi five
0:30:00doesn't go anywhere there were doubters
0:30:02for the g4 cube that like you know yeah
0:30:03if you just pick the ones that end up
0:30:05being smash successes it can look like
0:30:06hey history proves you wrong but setting
0:30:07that aside like so whatever you know so
0:30:10you can't use these as examples anything
0:30:12but what's different about the home pot
0:30:13then the success is what makes it more
0:30:16likely to be more like whatever sort of
0:30:19no not-so-great success then it is to be
0:30:24like the iPod and the iPhone and I think
0:30:26there is not to say that this means home
0:30:29pot is not going to be a success but I
0:30:32think it probably means a home pot won't
0:30:33be as huge of success as the iPod iPhone
0:30:36both of those things came into the
0:30:38market and they were substantially
0:30:40different than the existing players
0:30:42obviously the iPhone was difficult is
0:30:45amused about how it was different
0:30:46there's no physical keyboard no one does
0:30:48phones like that you can't make a phone
0:30:49like this doesn't even have 3G all the
0:30:51phones out there have 3G and you know
0:30:53expensive but like the iPhone was not
0:30:56just like a Nokia candy bar phone but
0:30:58with an apple logo on it right it was
0:31:00very very different
0:31:02it had things that no other phone in the
0:31:04market had that's you know the software
0:31:06obviously no other phone in the market
0:31:07behave like that people didn't even
0:31:08think it could possibly be real right
0:31:10the iPod was more conventional but still
0:31:13it was smaller and more well integrated
0:31:16than the other devices that you could
0:31:18buy that hold lots of songs in them and
0:31:20the key part about the iPod was that
0:31:22normal people could successful it could
0:31:24be successful at the task of taking your
0:31:26music collection and putting it on this
0:31:27device and listening to it I owned a
0:31:29bunch of pre iPod solid-state music
0:31:33players and if you remember they also
0:31:35had pre iPod hard drive based ones over
0:31:37the size of a truck right normal people
0:31:40would if they bought those things at all
0:31:42which they probably wouldn't tended to
0:31:44be less successful again I know it was
0:31:45that my wife was not successful getting
0:31:47the audio onto her tiny little flash
0:31:49whatever a samsung or maybe was
0:31:52Panasonic I can remember like there were
0:31:54a Yamaha that iPod was different than
0:31:58the others in that it was better in all
0:32:00ways in terms of like size and number of
0:32:03songs that had held and it was better
0:32:05and always related to user interface and
0:32:07so even though it was very limited and
0:32:08it was Mac only it was expensive and it
0:32:10had no wireless and had less space than
0:32:11a nomad which I think was the one of the
0:32:13hard drive bass players in the market
0:32:15yep it had significant advantages home
0:32:18pod enters a market already populated by
0:32:22devices that already do more than the
0:32:24home pod does in exactly the same way
0:32:27that the home pod intents that do it
0:32:28there are cylindrical shape speakers
0:32:30that play audio that you can talk to
0:32:32right there is no differentiator for the
0:32:34home pot except perhaps audio quality
0:32:36and it's not like there's no competition
0:32:38for audio quality Sonos has good audio
0:32:40quality and depending on whose test you
0:32:42look at even the google max thing seems
0:32:44to be so so right so the home pod comes
0:32:48in with no real differentiator like
0:32:51there's nothing that it does that is
0:32:53different it's not like everything else
0:32:54has a physical keyboard and it doesn't
0:32:55all the other ones require you to touch
0:32:57them and the home pod lets you talk to
0:32:58it no it's exactly the same feature set
0:33:00and that's why the home pods getting
0:33:02slammed because it comes into a crowded
0:33:05market doing nothing different or better
0:33:08than the competition and not doing many
0:33:12things that the competition does and
0:33:13like I said the only thing you could say
0:33:15homebuyers go
0:33:16for it is audio quality but even audio
0:33:17quality / price you can get to Sonos
0:33:19ones versus the home pod and two saunas
0:33:21one sound just about as good as the home
0:33:22pod with the possible exception of bass
0:33:24most people say so that thin edge of
0:33:28like okay well it's the best sounding
0:33:29cylinder that you can talk that you can
0:33:30get but on the other side of that coin
0:33:32you can't talk to it in as many ways as
0:33:34you can talk to these seven other
0:33:35products means that it's getting slammed
0:33:39for I think legitimate reasons and it
0:33:40also means that unless something very
0:33:42important changes it doesn't have the
0:33:45potential to be a breakout hit in the
0:33:47same way the iPhone the iPod dupe
0:33:48because it isn't differentiated enough
0:33:50even if it gets better at everything and
0:33:53it is as good as the Google home devices
0:33:56at answering your things and you know as
0:33:57good as Sonos an audio quality or
0:34:00whatever you've just caught up then
0:34:02right whereas the iPhone was is either
0:34:05gonna live or die based on the idea that
0:34:07you can have a phone that's all screen
0:34:08and guess what it lived right and same
0:34:10thing with the iPod is the ease of
0:34:13putting some music on this thing enough
0:34:14to make up for the high price well you
0:34:16know that turns out that it was
0:34:18especially once it came to Windows the
0:34:20iteration is definitely a thing but even
0:34:23iteration can't save you entirely okay
0:34:25not save you can't make you a wildly
0:34:27successful Apple TV is a great example
0:34:29Apple TV came out a long time ago back
0:34:31when it was called ITV before the Apple
0:34:33doesn't learn they couldn't use that
0:34:34name
0:34:35the original Apple TV was not popular
0:34:39and did not succeed other devices came
0:34:42on market and did better than the
0:34:44original Apple TV eventually Apple you
0:34:47know caught up and said we're gonna make
0:34:48a little puck shape thing and we're
0:34:51gonna do what everyone else is doing but
0:34:53right now Apple TV is you know it can it
0:34:58main advantages that you play your DRM
0:35:00lock the Apple content but other than
0:35:02that it has no great differentiator for
0:35:05you know besides media login from all
0:35:07the other you know television connected
0:35:09devices and even some Smart TVs can like
0:35:11play netflix just as well as the Apple
0:35:13TV
0:35:13so they iterated an Apple TV room for a
0:35:16long time and it actually took them
0:35:17essentially two tries to even figure out
0:35:19what the correct you know features and
0:35:21and price for for that type of device so
0:35:24I think it's it's not like we're
0:35:27doubting that the home pod will
0:35:29you know be a successful product but I
0:35:33think it is entirely reasonable to give
0:35:35it all the criticism I think it's
0:35:37getting and I think it's entirely
0:35:38reasonable not to expect it to be a
0:35:40breakout success like the iPod and the
0:35:42iPhone at least at least unless it until
0:35:45it comes out with some differentiator in
0:35:47fact if it was it would have you know
0:35:49they always say this like if people
0:35:51aren't making fun of you you're probably
0:35:52not gonna be that successful it if it
0:35:55was more differentiated and did
0:35:57something radically different that would
0:35:59give it probably more potential because
0:36:01like maybe it does maybe that weird
0:36:03thing that it's doing that nobody else
0:36:04is doing is going to be the thing that
0:36:05makes it a great success right but now
0:36:08you look at it it's like it's not doing
0:36:09anything differently anyone else it's
0:36:11doing exactly the same stuff only some
0:36:13of it not as good and that doesn't spell
0:36:16you know massive success it spells ok
0:36:20success right even the watch I would say
0:36:22is much more differentiated and even the
0:36:24watch has taken a while to get going but
0:36:26there was really no other SmartWatch
0:36:27that had the basically the the power and
0:36:30the you know the fashion sense that the
0:36:33Apple watch did on its introduction so
0:36:35even that had more potential upside than
0:36:37the home pod so I think everyone is
0:36:39lukewarm on the home pod for valid
0:36:41reasons ok I mean it's just it's a fair
0:36:46point like I I understand why the email
0:36:49was written I just I don't currently see
0:36:52it as the same and even if home had
0:36:55version 7 is the best speaker that has
0:36:57ever been made I don't think that
0:37:00negates any of the criticisms we have
0:37:01now and I'm trying to think of like what
0:37:04would be a breakout feature like you
0:37:05know it's a feature that doesn't already
0:37:08exist in the Google or Amazon or Sonos
0:37:10product that the home pod could have and
0:37:15you know just because I can't think of
0:37:17one doesn't mean there isn't one there
0:37:19could be one but nothing Apple has
0:37:21announced I think fits that category
0:37:23maybe well I don't know maybe like if
0:37:27the home kit stuff ever takes off apples
0:37:29do a better job of integrating all of
0:37:31our light switches and doorbells and
0:37:33whatever then Amazon currently does but
0:37:35I don't know and you know in the
0:37:39meantime we're all just hoping that home
0:37:40pod catches up that its voice stuff is
0:37:43that being as good as Google and Amazon
0:37:45and that it gets all the capabilities
0:37:48that Apple originally advertised for it
0:37:49in terms of having multiple ones and
0:37:51multi-room audio and all the other
0:37:53things that some of its competitors
0:37:53already have I want one
0:37:57but I know I'm gonna be disappointed by
0:37:58it and so that's why I'm bought one and
0:38:00plus it's what is it three and fifty
0:38:01four hundred dollars like that's it's
0:38:03enough money that's that's not an
0:38:04impulse buy to me and not to say that it
0:38:06is to you to either just for me anyway
0:38:08it's not an impulse buy and and so I I
0:38:11just it's new and shiny and Apple made
0:38:15its that means I should I should have
0:38:16won that's that's the rule that's what
0:38:19they tell me to do that's what uncle Tim
0:38:20tells me to do and I don't know I'll
0:38:22probably get one eventually but sitting
0:38:23here now I just I know it's gonna
0:38:25disappoint me yeah I I really want to
0:38:28want the home pod more you know like
0:38:31like I feel like I'm like on Apple's
0:38:33team for pretty much everything else as
0:38:35much as some people think I'm not I
0:38:37really AM on Apple's team for the most
0:38:39part and and the reason why I sometimes
0:38:42criticism is because I like them so much
0:38:44and because I think they're better than
0:38:45everyone else in industry a lot of stuff
0:38:47but it I really want so badly to love
0:38:51and then buy everything that they make
0:38:53but I can't like the home pod is about
0:38:5770 percent of the way there for me like
0:38:59I need something else I need really good
0:39:01airplay too or I need a reason for
0:39:03overcast to be developing on it which
0:39:05might be airplay to whenever that ships
0:39:06or you I need you know a Siri kid a P I
0:39:10like something's just something give me
0:39:12something else you know close one of
0:39:14these you know open check boxes here
0:39:16that that that are making it you know
0:39:19not quite enough for me
0:39:20ultimately the thing that could really
0:39:22make it awesome for me is if Siri gets a
0:39:25lot better and I'm I think we might be
0:39:28waiting on time for that
0:39:30on the on the audio from the audio
0:39:33quality or even just that did their
0:39:35overall device quality and the
0:39:36integration with the Apple ecosystem
0:39:37home pod has the very easy potential to
0:39:41be the audio : of Apple TV and that
0:39:44there are lots of Apple TV like devices
0:39:47that you can connect to your television
0:39:49they can play like YouTube and Netflix
0:39:50and Hulu
0:39:52you know all the stuff right there's the
0:39:54Apple TV is not the only competitor in
0:39:56that market but a lot of people I know
0:39:58who are in the Apple ecosystem and like
0:40:00fancy Apple stuff instead of having a
0:40:02Roku or fi TV they have Apple TVs and
0:40:04why do they have them is it because
0:40:06Apple TV is fantastically better than
0:40:08fire TV and Roku yes it's better and
0:40:10it's better in ways that Apple nerds
0:40:12care about no trust me it's better I
0:40:14mean I tried like maybe when I was at
0:40:16two years ago when I tried like the all
0:40:18I tried to Roku and a fire TV because I
0:40:21was frustrated with the Apple TV and
0:40:22I'll tell you what the Apple TV drives
0:40:25me crazy but it's bet it's still better
0:40:28than a bunch of them and I think it's
0:40:31the difference is not that big I feel
0:40:33like it's mostly aesthetic I like some
0:40:35of the other remotes better than well
0:40:38yeah
0:40:39but but anyway like Apple TV is more
0:40:42expensive but people buy it because it's
0:40:45the Apple iasts one so home pod easily
0:40:48could get the market for people who want
0:40:50a cylinder they can talk to the plays
0:40:52audio nicely and they're people who are
0:40:55in the Apple ecosystem that are willing
0:40:56to pay a little bit more for a nice
0:40:57looking device that sounds really good
0:40:59like that's the easy market right even
0:41:01if it doesn't do everything the Google
0:41:02home and echo do and you know and you
0:41:05know setting aside sona's for now home
0:41:08pod for sure should get that entire
0:41:09market which is not a small market like
0:41:11that's if it's if it can suddenly be as
0:41:13successful as the Apple TV 4k I think
0:41:16Apple would be OK for that for a 1.0
0:41:18product right and then they can go from
0:41:19there
0:41:20so I think there is a clear path to
0:41:22okayness for the home pod even without
0:41:25improving anything about it simply
0:41:27because it is nice-looking and it sounds
0:41:29good and it's integrated with the Apple
0:41:30ecosystem and Apple people like you both
0:41:32just said like to buy Apple stuff so I
0:41:34think that's a gimme we are sponsored
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0:43:08your next move with a wonderful
0:43:09beautiful website from Squarespace let's
0:43:15talk about Siri I have thoughts so this
0:43:21started a couple of weeks ago I was
0:43:23having a conversation with my friend
0:43:25Jamie Pinkham and we were we were
0:43:28talking with a mutual friend of ours and
0:43:30and Jamie had said you know serious
0:43:33terrible but I applaud Apple for
0:43:35sticking to their guns in regard to
0:43:36privacy yeah we all know if they have
0:43:39gathered more info on us it would be
0:43:40better and I thought you know what he's
0:43:43absolutely right and maybe the reason
0:43:45I'm so grumpy about Siri is because
0:43:48Apple isn't just you know for going and
0:43:51issuing I think that's how you pronounce
0:43:53Lord of shewing you know privacy they're
0:43:56doing what I would want them to do which
0:43:58is to do the right thing and keep new
0:44:00user privacy at the forefront and you
0:44:03know if their product is a little crummy
0:44:04or because of it then so be it but then
0:44:07I got thinking about it a little bit
0:44:08more and it occurred to me but Siri
0:44:12still sucks for a lot of things that
0:44:15have nothing to do with my data like did
0:44:18I tell the story on the show I think I
0:44:19about asking when the the UVA Tech game
0:44:23basketball game was and I'd asked for
0:44:26like you know when is the Cavaliers game
0:44:28on and it wanted to show me the
0:44:30Cleveland Cavaliers okay fine and then I
0:44:32asked like when it's the Hokie game on
0:44:33and they was I don't know okay when are
0:44:35the Hokies and Cavaliers playing each
0:44:37other
0:44:37yeah the they played each other six
0:44:39months ago here's the score okay what
0:44:42time is the Hokie basketball game oh
0:44:43it's totally tonight at six o'clock why
0:44:45do you ask like it's just in and that's
0:44:48the thing that's so frustrating well one
0:44:50of the things that's so frustrating to
0:44:51me is that yeah I think Jamie was right
0:44:53that in and of itself this things could
0:44:57be a lot better or or you know Syria
0:45:00would be more knowledgeable
0:45:01if privacy wasn't as big a deal you know
0:45:05if so much more of this stuff could be
0:45:06crunched server side like if my entire
0:45:08calendar was server side if all of my
0:45:10email was server side and by that I mean
0:45:13Apple could read all of it in so many
0:45:15ways I feel like Siri could be so much
0:45:17better and I respect Apple I truly and
0:45:19honestly respect Apple for making their
0:45:21product by most arguments worse by not
0:45:23cutting that corner because I think that
0:45:25that that's better for me even though
0:45:27the product on the whole is worse but
0:45:29can you get like an actor's name right I
0:45:32was in in and even just basic dictation
0:45:35so I went for a run yesterday and it's
0:45:40one point to the ride my iPods and I'm
0:45:42all I'm on my Apple watch my Apple watch
0:45:44with LTE connection which I don't know
0:45:46if you've ever heard I'm a little grumpy
0:45:47about but here be that as it may I'm on
0:45:50my ear pods Apple watch I am panting to
0:45:52be fair but I if I had held down the
0:45:57crown on the Apple watch so it would
0:45:59listen to me because I've hey Siri
0:46:00alright no actually he Syria doesn't
0:46:01work with the air pods but I don't have
0:46:05the the double tap to kick on Siri
0:46:08because I prefer to do it differently I
0:46:09prefer the double tap to do different
0:46:11things so I hold down the crown on the
0:46:13watch I hear the beep beep and I said
0:46:15something to the effect of like remind
0:46:16me to open a 529 savings account for
0:46:18Makayla and holy God I wish I had
0:46:21recorded what it had come up with in the
0:46:24defense of Siri I was panting this was
0:46:26like two-thirds of the way through my
0:46:27run but it came up with like something
0:46:30that was barely intelligible I was able
0:46:32to piece it together
0:46:33after the fact but it was hilarious how
0:46:37bad the transcription was and all it was
0:46:40was a reminder like this shouldn't in
0:46:42theory have been that complex then I get
0:46:45home and I decide I wanted to listen to
0:46:47you some probably got off on me as I got
0:46:49or even remember what it was and so I'm
0:46:51in front of my garage I'm on my driveway
0:46:54my phone was sitting in my kitchen now
0:46:56Marco you've seen the house and we are
0:46:59talking 20 feet maybe from the from
0:47:03basically the garage door to the kitchen
0:47:05and to be fair there's a couple of walls
0:47:07including an exterior wall between me
0:47:09and my phone but probably a lot of
0:47:10Tito's and Villita shells and cheese
0:47:12naturally and so I you know said you
0:47:16know hey can you play me the latest
0:47:18album by yo mute math or something like
0:47:20that I don't remember exactly what it
0:47:21was and then I see hold on again this is
0:47:25on my watch now I have plenty of Wi-Fi
0:47:27coverage at this point but it appears
0:47:30that's not good enough
0:47:30hold on I'll tap you when I'm ready yeah
0:47:36series not available sorry about that
0:47:38and it's like come on no maybe that
0:47:41isn't I guess strictly speaking that's
0:47:42not serious like that's just a general
0:47:43connectivity because that's well I mean
0:47:46is it or is it like is it a local
0:47:48failure or a server failure either way
0:47:50it's kind of serious problem like if
0:47:52your watch should be connected you know
0:47:54like if it's in an area where it has
0:47:56good coverage it should be connected I
0:47:58mean I have plenty of LTE although I
0:48:00don't I did look and it was not on LTE
0:48:02at the time I plenty of LTE though so
0:48:04hypothetically it could should have fall
0:48:07back - fall back fell back to LTE I
0:48:10certainly was well within my Wi-Fi
0:48:13coverage without question I was in with
0:48:16within Wi-Fi coverage and yet it insists
0:48:18on going I think to the phone because
0:48:21you know when I did the swipe up to get
0:48:22the little control center thing I saw a
0:48:23phone icon in the upper left and it was
0:48:26insistent on going to the phone which
0:48:27you have itself as a first stop okay
0:48:29fine I'm okay with that but can you not
0:48:30fall back onto something else and
0:48:32whatever I was trying to play was
0:48:34something that I had night UNS match so
0:48:36this sure to have like the way I
0:48:39expected it to work is that maybe it
0:48:41would have tried the phone and then
0:48:42given up when it wasn't too strong
0:48:44enough connection or whatever and then
0:48:45just gone via either Wi-Fi
0:48:47LTE and asked you know Apple hey what
0:48:49did Casey just say oh he wants to listen
0:48:51to the latest out of my new math okay so
0:48:53does he have anything by yo mute math
0:48:55and iTunes Oh indeed he does here's what
0:48:58you should play and it should work and
0:49:00it's just these little failures are
0:49:03happening all the friggin time and it's
0:49:06to the point that I feel like I cannot
0:49:10communicate with my phone verbally I
0:49:11cannot communicate with my phone by
0:49:13typing on my phone because that's become
0:49:16a disaster so I just I feel like the
0:49:19only device that I have that I can input
0:49:22any text into with any efficacy is my
0:49:24Mac and it's driving me insane but
0:49:28better hope it's not the MacBook
0:49:29keyboard actually my psyche there's a
0:49:32little bit crunchy today it's not too
0:49:33happy about that I was able to mash on
0:49:35and get whatever you know microscopic
0:49:37speck of dust was out of the way I did
0:49:40not need to return to work the can of
0:49:43compressed air that I kid you not I
0:49:45bought specifically for my macbook I
0:49:47hadn't had a can of compressed air in
0:49:48the house and like ten years but but but
0:49:51I needed I think a lot of the
0:49:55frustration here is like like it's like
0:49:57I mentioned I think last show or or
0:49:59maybe it was on my seventeen our talk
0:50:01show last week or whatever it was and I
0:50:03mentioned that I that like you know when
0:50:07I first got the Amazon echo it was the
0:50:09you know after years of like kind of you
0:50:11know passively trying to use Siri and
0:50:13have it fail a lot of the time and just
0:50:15kind of be frustrated about it it was
0:50:17striking to me how reliable the Amazon
0:50:20echo was in in and how quickly it would
0:50:23answer me and and you know in part this
0:50:25is kind of not a straight comparison
0:50:28because the Amazon echo is stationary
0:50:31plugged in all the time listening all
0:50:34the time for the wake word at least and
0:50:36is in a controlled environment it's
0:50:39always in the same spot and there are
0:50:41like you know acoustic things that can
0:50:44happen like for instance I mentioned
0:50:45earlier like when when my range hood fan
0:50:47is on on the stove it creates like you
0:50:50know a good deal of fairly broadband
0:50:53white noise and the echo just can't hear
0:50:56anything anymore like even if it's even
0:50:58if humans can hear over it just fine
0:50:59like sir
0:51:00types of noise that are in the room the
0:51:02echo just seems to really hear very
0:51:04badly if those noises are present but
0:51:06but otherwise like the echo is pretty
0:51:09reliable but again that's because it's
0:51:11in one place plugged in all the time
0:51:14listening for the wake where all the
0:51:15time and has a stable connection like it
0:51:17can remain connected the network it
0:51:19doesn't have to it doesn't have to Power
0:51:20Save and drop itself off the Wi-Fi when
0:51:23it's not necessary is stuff like that so
0:51:25there are it this is not not a straight
0:51:26comparison here to your watch situation
0:51:28which was very possibly affected by
0:51:30connectivity and power saving stuff but
0:51:33that being said like you know the the
0:51:35the way the error rates of these things
0:51:37work suppose the echo hears me 95
0:51:40percent of the time and Siri hears me 90
0:51:42percent of the time that still means
0:51:43Siri fails twice as often and so as you
0:51:47get closer to these higher number you
0:51:49know it's very same same math when you
0:51:50talk about cache hit rates you have the
0:51:51same problem like like you know it seems
0:51:53like my like when when one of my cache
0:51:56servers is down then about you know
0:51:59eight percent of hits will miss but that
0:52:02also means that my databases are then
0:52:05serving like five times as many hits
0:52:07because the hit rate is usually so high
0:52:09so like you know you'll see a huge spike
0:52:11in load on the databases for what seems
0:52:14like a small difference in the cache hit
0:52:15rate so this is you know it's similar
0:52:17problem here with like you know for Siri
0:52:20to get like competitive and better in
0:52:23this way it needs to get what's it needs
0:52:27to dramatically reduce its error rate
0:52:29and its failure rate and Apple might
0:52:32think it's really good if you know if
0:52:34Apple has data on this which I'm sure
0:52:35they do you know they might see it as
0:52:37somewhere being in the 80s or 90s and
0:52:38think that's great but the competition
0:52:40is even better than that and the
0:52:42difference can still be seen and felt
0:52:44pretty pretty regularly
0:52:46I would love so much for Siri to improve
0:52:50at the same rate as Apple's hardware and
0:52:52software usually improves but it's been
0:52:55here a while and we haven't seen that so
0:52:56I I don't think anybody should
0:52:59reasonably anticipate that that's going
0:53:01to happen now like all of a sudden you
0:53:03see you're gonna start getting better at
0:53:04a rapid pace
0:53:05I don't know like they have this they
0:53:08have the home pod which depends very
0:53:09heavily on Siri so you might think
0:53:11that's great motivation but I think the
0:53:13iPhone for the last 70
0:53:14there's also pretty good motivation and
0:53:15they haven't done that so you know I
0:53:18don't it just it doesn't seem like it's
0:53:20really a core competency of Apple to
0:53:24make really good AI based big data
0:53:26services like this and and you know a
0:53:29lot of people lean on the privacy thing
0:53:30and Apple to some reason or to some
0:53:32degree also kind of leans on the privacy
0:53:33angle it almost as an excuse of why it
0:53:37has to be this way and I think that's
0:53:40not a valid argument you know I think
0:53:45the the privacy aspect of the way Apple
0:53:48does things is nice and and there's
0:53:51merit to that there's value to that I'm
0:53:53glad they do that but that does not
0:53:55preclude them from making really good
0:53:57services in this area
0:53:58it just doesn't it's two it's two
0:54:00separate things yes if they had more
0:54:02data if they if they were more creepy
0:54:03with letting stuff certain types of
0:54:05certain services could get better but
0:54:08Apple makes a lot of services that could
0:54:11get better with what they already have
0:54:12and they don't or they don't get better
0:54:15enough so I don't think that Apple has
0:54:19to give up privacy to make great
0:54:21services conversely I don't think the
0:54:23privacy is the reason their services in
0:54:25some of these areas are not great I
0:54:27think that's a convenient excuse for
0:54:29people who don't really understand how
0:54:30to make these services very well but
0:54:32otherwise it's that's not the reality
0:54:34the reality is these services can get
0:54:38way better with the amount of
0:54:40information that they already do or
0:54:41don't collect I don't think Apple is
0:54:44culturally and structurally set up to
0:54:47make really great services of this type
0:54:48I think they have proven that yeah and
0:54:51that's exactly my point when I was
0:54:52bringing up what Jamie had said of you
0:54:53is that there's so much that has nothing
0:54:55to do with privacy like okay fine maybe
0:54:58if Siri saw that I was sitting in
0:55:01Virginia when I was asking about to
0:55:02Virginia colleges playing each other
0:55:04maybe it could have narrowed down a
0:55:06little bit more but either way I don't
0:55:09think that would have made a tremendous
0:55:10difference and okay even if that would
0:55:12have made a difference then what happens
0:55:14when I'm using Siri is like a front end
0:55:16IMDB like I think it was John had
0:55:18mentioned earlier you know I want to
0:55:19know about who's acting in the movie I'm
0:55:21watching or the TV show I'm watching
0:55:22like Siri falls all over its face on
0:55:25that half the time and that has nothing
0:55:26to do with any
0:55:27thing except I guess if it was listening
0:55:29to what I was watching which is even
0:55:31creepy enough that I don't think Google
0:55:33does that sort of thing so you know what
0:55:35I mean like there's so much that it that
0:55:37has nothing to do with privacy and this
0:55:39is what I was saying originally what
0:55:41Marco is saying now just a moment ago it
0:55:43there's so much that is beyond this and
0:55:47I I just it's frustrating and I wanna I
0:55:51want to see it get better and I'm
0:55:53frustrated that it's not getting better
0:55:55especially since unlike you know the
0:55:57annual release cycles for Mac OS and iOS
0:56:00which we hopefully talked about this
0:56:01episode I I don't understand why this
0:56:05isn't getting better faster except
0:56:06perhaps just in in Marco you said this a
0:56:08moment ago you know a corporate culture
0:56:10that that doesn't that isn't conducive
0:56:12to it I'd like to generalize this from
0:56:15from Syria specifically to these voices
0:56:18since in general this is just to
0:56:19reiterate some what Marco just said and
0:56:21what he said on this topic many times I
0:56:23think we all talked about in the past I
0:56:25think it's actually analogous to the
0:56:27iPhone which I'm thinking about because
0:56:29we had that earlier feedback about it
0:56:31[Music]
0:56:32that it's Marco talked about the the
0:56:35percentage differences in the gaps and
0:56:37like so you know if the competing
0:56:39products are this good and Siri is that
0:56:40good even if Siri is improving there's
0:56:42still a gap between it but I think the
0:56:44important part of those hypothetical
0:56:46numbers is that like the original iPhone
0:56:49there is a there's a threshold on one
0:56:54side the same interface is not
0:56:58acceptable on the other side of that
0:57:00threshold you pass into the realm of
0:57:03acceptability the iPhone was one of the
0:57:05first mass-market devices to cross that
0:57:08threshold for touch input on a screen
0:57:10the touch screen which touch screens was
0:57:13existed forever and people generally
0:57:15hated suddenly got responsive enough so
0:57:19that you know it wasn't just like oh
0:57:21this is like 1% better it crossed over
0:57:23all aligned right and suddenly it was
0:57:26good enough and they've gotten way
0:57:27better since then right but it was so
0:57:29clear that this is the first device that
0:57:31that is good enough that regular people
0:57:34will use the touchscreen and not just
0:57:37fine you know they like they won't hate
0:57:39it it'll it'll feel good it'll feel
0:57:41it'll feel like they're directly
0:57:42manipulating the things on the screen
0:57:43right for the cylinders that you talk to
0:57:46the essential that they're there is the
0:57:49same line and Amazon cross that a long
0:57:51time ago and it's this a couple of
0:57:54aspects one is this got to hear you
0:57:56right - is it has to know what the hell
0:58:00you're asking me about and three is it
0:58:01has to do it fast right and the
0:58:04combination of those three things
0:58:05produces a feedback cycle for people who
0:58:07use the echo that builds confidence the
0:58:11first time you use it you're impressed
0:58:12that even understood what you mumbled
0:58:14then you're impressed that it did like
0:58:16it could do the thing that you asked for
0:58:18and then I think with the echo you're
0:58:20impressed that it did it so quickly like
0:58:22you feel like you barely had the words
0:58:23out of your mouth and it's setting your
0:58:24timer doing whatever telling you what
0:58:26time it is are telling you the weather
0:58:27it just seems so fast and when that
0:58:29happens that the threshold that it
0:58:32crosses like the utility threshold of
0:58:33like this is an appliance and it's no
0:58:35longer a computer thing where I just you
0:58:38know cross my fingers and hope that
0:58:39something cool and computery works just
0:58:40becomes part of your day right even if
0:58:43it has limitations like oh I just know
0:58:45it can't hear me with the rangehood on
0:58:46right there this is parameters to it you
0:58:49know if you know that's the case that's
0:58:51bad and Amazon should improve that but
0:58:54it's not like on some days when it's
0:58:57raining you can't hear me and then on
0:58:59Thursdays sometimes doesn't hear me
0:59:00right like you crossed that threshold
0:59:02where it becomes reliable and there are
0:59:05so many things that we could talk to
0:59:06including Siri and lots of other things
0:59:08that have some kind of voice interface
0:59:10that do not cross that threshold and so
0:59:13you you give up on them you don't use
0:59:15them or use them for an extremely narrow
0:59:17you know set of things and in particular
0:59:20circumstances now I think the home pod
0:59:22has actually crossed some of those
0:59:23thresholds for Apple I think the home
0:59:25Bob can hear me really really well I may
0:59:28be able to hear me better than any other
0:59:29device on the market not better enough
0:59:31perhaps to make a difference because in
0:59:33general the I'm still amazed at how well
0:59:36the Google home could hear me and I've
0:59:38seen other people talk to their echoes
0:59:39from far distances and it seems to work
0:59:41pretty well but the home pot I think
0:59:43crosses the threshold for can it hear me
0:59:45it does not cross the threshold for does
0:59:48that understand what I'm asking for
0:59:50because still many times it will neither
0:59:54know
0:59:54do what I think it should do or the same
0:59:58command will get different results
0:59:58command will get different results
1:00:00and it also I think doesn't cross the
1:00:02threshold as I mentioned before for
1:00:03responding quickly enough when I tell it
1:00:05to stop playing music I know it hears me
1:00:07I know it understands what I want to do
1:00:09and it does it but it does it a little
1:00:11bit more slowly than I would like slowly
1:00:14enough that it makes me it gives me that
1:00:15millisecond of doubt whether it's doing
1:00:17it it doesn't create that that feedback
1:00:19cycle where I'm like oh now I feel like
1:00:20I have a voice connection to an off
1:00:22switch
1:00:22right in the same way that whenever
1:00:24Marco says like turn everything off and
1:00:25is downstairs that it turns everything
1:00:27off you get used to it doing that right
1:00:30then you don't get you don't expect it
1:00:32to have like a little spinner light
1:00:33going spin spin spin spin okay I'll turn
1:00:36off your lights that's too long that
1:00:38doesn't create the feedback cycle so I'm
1:00:41not sure exactly what values those lines
1:00:43are at but I can tell that certain
1:00:44devices are over in certain devices or
1:00:46not and I think home pod with the
1:00:48advancement of its of its audio output
1:00:49and input has crossed over a bunch of
1:00:51those lines but it's still a couple
1:00:54things lagged behind and you really got
1:00:56to get everything over the line kind of
1:00:58like the original iPhone did to sort of
1:01:00enter the game to enter the realm of
1:01:03devices that regular people will use
1:01:05routinely day after day and stop
1:01:07thinking about as a tech gadget and
1:01:09start thinking about as an appliance
1:01:11that you just expect to work all the
1:01:12time yeah we're a long way from there
1:01:14unfortunately but not for the other
1:01:16cylinders Casey should get a Google home
1:01:18right now with an echo I actually have
1:01:21an Amazon echo on its way to me right
1:01:23now
1:01:23really wait what sorry I bury the lead
1:01:26actually yes so a friend of mine Justin
1:01:30Williams he might know from Glassport
1:01:32among other things he was getting rid of
1:01:35his echo and said to me you know rather
1:01:38than trying to figure out you know who
1:01:40to sell it to you know if I covered
1:01:41postage he would send it my way
1:01:43and so I baked ashed him the cost to
1:01:47send it from him to me and it'll be here
1:01:50sometime next week
1:01:51probably after we record actually so
1:01:52you're not gonna hear any more about
1:01:54this for a couple of weeks at least I
1:01:55still don't have any particular interest
1:01:57in having an echo in my house but since
1:01:59almost everyone I know has one in almost
1:02:01everyone I know loves them I'm curious
1:02:04to see what'll happen with it but start
1:02:06asking kitchen questions or putting in
1:02:08TV room and start asking me TV questions
1:02:10by the way I can't test the home pod on
1:02:12we questions I asked it who was the star
1:02:14of a movie that's out now and I asked it
1:02:17when a movie was released and I did both
1:02:19of them in just the first way that
1:02:21occurred to me the you know questions
1:02:25that I have a good comparison to possess
1:02:26my Google things all the time for the
1:02:28who stars in the movie it it more or
1:02:31less got it it basically read me a web
1:02:33page but it read me the relevant portion
1:02:36of the web page and it read me like
1:02:37seven of the people that are in the
1:02:38movie and then asked me if I want to
1:02:40read the next two as well so it didn't
1:02:42get like who the star was I think
1:02:43there's an obvious answer like one
1:02:45person but it it read the cast it didn't
1:02:47read me that the title on the rating saw
1:02:48I give it that one but it definitely
1:02:50sounded like I found this on the web
1:02:51about blah blah blah which is not as
1:02:53direct as when I asked the question of
1:02:55Google it just tells me straight up I
1:02:56asked if the release date and it was
1:02:58verbose about it it said the movie XYZ
1:03:00was released on you know January 12th
1:03:02but it got the right answer so I you
1:03:06know I don't know if home pod has gotten
1:03:09better about that then Siri mostly I'm
1:03:12just enjoying the fact that I find it so
1:03:15much more reliably able to hear me I
1:03:16hate using Syria I don't you have my
1:03:18watch I don't where am i watch it all
1:03:19the time but I hate using Siri on my
1:03:21phone because I activate it and I never
1:03:22know if it went safe for me to start
1:03:24talking and almost all the time I you
1:03:27know hold down the home button and like
1:03:29the little Siri thing appears on the
1:03:30screen and I say whatever I want to say
1:03:33right and I see the little waveform move
1:03:35and while I'm talking it goes boo boo
1:03:38loop that is exactly and then I'm like
1:03:43well maybe it maybe it heard me anyway
1:03:45so I finished what I'm saying
1:03:46and it just stares at me and says how
1:03:48can I help you you moved your waveform
1:03:51in response to my speaking it's clear
1:03:53that the audio was entering into the
1:03:55system and you know jiggling but and so
1:03:57I always have to end up saying
1:03:58everything twice and I hate that it
1:03:59makes me feel dumb and it's not a good
1:04:01interaction if I wait for the bloop I
1:04:02feel like I'm waiting there forever but
1:04:04now now is it okay for me to talk it's
1:04:06the worst talking to a cylinder is so
1:04:08much better I don't care if it's ready
1:04:09for me I just start talking and the home
1:04:12pod definitely passes that test you know
1:04:14not once they did not hear me not once
1:04:17did it you know but bloop at me or do
1:04:20anything or interrupt me in any way I
1:04:22was able to say what I wanted to say and
1:04:24it was able to
1:04:24do what I wanted to do so you know
1:04:27excited I think home pod definitely
1:04:28crosses some thresholds that previously
1:04:30hadn't been crossed by any Apple product
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1:06:09rethink what your money can do we got
1:06:15word and not us three specifically just
1:06:17in general there was word spread a
1:06:20couple of weeks ago I think that Apple
1:06:23is going to pull a Snow Leopard
1:06:25but for real this time like we really
1:06:28mean it this time
1:06:29for realsies pinkie swear there's an
1:06:33article in Bloomberg that said Apple is
1:06:36going to kind of pump the brakes
1:06:38and it's going to well the the headline
1:06:41is how Apple plans to root out bugs and
1:06:43revamp iPhone software so there's a
1:06:47quote that one of you pulled for my
1:06:49convenience so thank you quote instead
1:06:51of keeping engineers on a relentless
1:06:52annual schedule and cramming features
1:06:54into a single update Apple will start
1:06:55focusing on the next two years of
1:06:57updates for its iPhone and iPad
1:06:58operating system according to people
1:07:00familiar with the change the company
1:07:02will continue to update its software
1:07:03annually but internally engineers will
1:07:05have more discretion to push back
1:07:06features that aren't as polished to the
1:07:09following year I don't know where to
1:07:15start with this other than to say that
1:07:17if this really is true sitting here now
1:07:21anyway this sounds magical this sounds
1:07:24like you know the the the glass of ice
1:07:26water in hell and that's not to say that
1:07:29things are that bad by any stretch but
1:07:30what I mean is I really think that Apple
1:07:33could stand to kind of pump the brakes
1:07:35on new features and just work on
1:07:37hardening things and I think that the
1:07:39three of us are amongst many voices that
1:07:41have been saying the same and when we
1:07:44were doing Jason Snell's end-of-year
1:07:47recap in survey or whatever he called it
1:07:50we'll put a link in the show notes one
1:07:52of the things that struck me as I was
1:07:54reflecting on some of the things he'd
1:07:56asked about like software quality is
1:07:57that over the past year so during 2017 I
1:08:01had had a lot of my like family members
1:08:03and you know so most of my friends are
1:08:05kind of pretty big nerds but most of my
1:08:08family members are not and I had had
1:08:10some family members say to me in so many
1:08:13words holy crap this Apple stuff never
1:08:15works anymore what happened to it just
1:08:16working and that that really struck me
1:08:21and and I mentioned that to Jason I
1:08:23think he actually used that in the
1:08:24report card and it seems like it's time
1:08:28that the perception anyway whether or
1:08:30not it's reality the perception is and
1:08:31I'm very much in this camp that software
1:08:33quality's really kind of taking a turn
1:08:35for the worse so it's it's easy to blame
1:08:40the relentless speed of new features for
1:08:43maybe that being the problem maybe that
1:08:45maybe that's just that they need to not
1:08:47be not have a litany of new features to
1:08:49release every WWC
1:08:51so perhaps slowing down on new and shiny
1:08:55will give everyone time to improve the
1:08:59old end well busted but I don't know
1:09:03it's it's hard because I've worked in
1:09:05big software companies but not quite
1:09:06this big John you can be the adult in
1:09:08the room as you always are so I'll come
1:09:10to you now is Marco Marco how do you
1:09:13feel about this first let's have the
1:09:14children discussing you and me are at
1:09:17the kiddie table
1:09:18and Thanksgiving so let's let's talk
1:09:20amongst ourselves Marco already talked
1:09:21about this for an hour in another
1:09:22podcast now I ever had this time to
1:09:24listen that I known as the time well I
1:09:26was trying to figure out so thank you
1:09:29all right so anyway so can you give us
1:09:31the chief summarizer and chief version
1:09:33then of that argument yeah basically
1:09:34this is great to hear I'm I'm happy that
1:09:38this you know and you know this seems
1:09:40like it has multiple sources and
1:09:42everything it's a probe it probably
1:09:43happened this this meeting or this
1:09:45change but I don't think it really means
1:09:48much of anything yet it's very much show
1:09:50you like ok that sounds promising let's
1:09:52see what happens you know let's wait and
1:09:53see what the actual results of this are
1:09:55I do think that the the annual schedule
1:09:59of heavy feature filled releases on
1:10:02almost all their platforms has been a
1:10:05significant contributor to the recent
1:10:08quality issues you know I just I don't
1:10:09think there I don't I think from a
1:10:12little bit we've heard here and there it
1:10:15really does seem like they don't have
1:10:17they don't devote enough time to bug
1:10:20fixing and refinement before the
1:10:22engineers on most of these projects have
1:10:24to go to the next thing I have to build
1:10:26the next the next marketing features
1:10:27build the next headlining features or
1:10:29you know get to the next major version
1:10:30like there there's not a lot of time in
1:10:33an annual cycle for refinement and bug
1:10:36fixes and so if indeed they're moving to
1:10:38a two-year cycle for major efforts like
1:10:41and this isn't saying that they're gonna
1:10:42like only release iOS every two years or
1:10:44whatever it's just like you know major
1:10:46features will now take will now be
1:10:48allowed to take two years that's that
1:10:50sounds good
1:10:51I don't know how different that is from
1:10:53how it has been though I mean we know
1:10:55you know certain things like a PFS like
1:10:57that wasn't that didn't take one year
1:10:58like that was like major features have
1:11:02always been allowed to take more than a
1:11:03year but you know
1:11:04it's I don't I don't know what exactly
1:11:07this is allegedly changing and I think
1:11:10we're not really going to know whether
1:11:13it's you know working or whether it's
1:11:15having a real effect for probably a
1:11:17couple years like we're gonna have to
1:11:18just see how the software evolved over
1:11:20the next couple of years and kind of see
1:11:22like it doesn't seem better now or not
1:11:25I've been in a lot of big software
1:11:28companies and over the years I've seen
1:11:30III can't speak to what it's like inside
1:11:33Apple but I have to think that it's not
1:11:35so incredibly different from other large
1:11:37companies especially these days and the
1:11:41thing that happens in companies to do
1:11:44stuff with software or technology in
1:11:45general and probably in any companies
1:11:48that the higher you go up the the
1:11:50management chain the more the incentives
1:11:52are structured for those people to make
1:11:56it seem like things are going well and
1:11:59to themselves believe that things are
1:12:03going well but eventually something will
1:12:05happen that ripples alway up the entire
1:12:08org chart that you know me from down at
1:12:11the bottom of the org chart I always saw
1:12:13those those unfortunate things that
1:12:15happened as opportunities that must be
1:12:17seized upon by those in the lower ranks
1:12:19because that's your chance to say you
1:12:23people higher up have thought
1:12:24everything's been great but we've been
1:12:26down here telling you that X is really a
1:12:29problem and now those chickens are come
1:12:31home to roost
1:12:31so let's hell you know come together and
1:12:34have a discussion about how we're gonna
1:12:36change things right and this cycle just
1:12:38repeats itself like it never never
1:12:40actually like fixes all your problems
1:12:41but basically you know you gather
1:12:44together you say we're gonna change how
1:12:45we do things in a way that will prevent
1:12:47things like this from happening and you
1:12:48do it like you make the actual change
1:12:50you change procedures you reorganize
1:12:52people you change priorities you do you
1:12:54know almost exactly the same thing to
1:12:56talk about here you know lengthen
1:12:57schedules give people who are closer to
1:13:00the actual work more authority to push
1:13:04back on deadlines or I do you stop
1:13:06setting unrealistic internal deadlines
1:13:08just so some middle manager can get a
1:13:10bonus this year like you do all that
1:13:11stuff right and it works like it's not
1:13:15like it doesn't work it works like you
1:13:17make things better
1:13:19there are the countervailing forces of
1:13:21things slowing down and everything also
1:13:23happened but then it just builds back up
1:13:25again you get into a happy place again
1:13:26and then you know get the same incentive
1:13:29structures cause people to press hard
1:13:31and set aggressive internal deadlines
1:13:33and fear of competition makes you add
1:13:36lots of features and so on and so forth
1:13:37and you get it and then another crisis
1:13:39happens and people seize on it and like
1:13:40this is just a cycle of any large group
1:13:43of people doing things and that's not
1:13:46stay I'm not trying to be like cynical
1:13:47about it I agree with marco and almost
1:13:49everyone else has looked at this is like
1:13:50yes this is exactly what we want Apple
1:13:53to do and I really believe that a
1:13:55they're really gonna do it and be that
1:13:57it will really help right
1:13:59I think this same cycle has happened
1:14:03inside Apple many times in the past and
1:14:05it will happen many times in the future
1:14:07and I just think we're kind of in you
1:14:09know in like a downswing that hopefully
1:14:13is about to take a turn into an upswing
1:14:15so I see it as positive and like there's
1:14:17an entire industry around like how to
1:14:20not go through this you know roller
1:14:22coaster cycle and how to you know get
1:14:23sustainable growth and just do great
1:14:25things for ever and ever and it's just a
1:14:26constant struggle to get any larger
1:14:28group of people to do that maybe Apple
1:14:31that's another topic we won't get to
1:14:32today but like you know people have
1:14:34rose-colored glasses about the whatever
1:14:35they think the heyday of Apple was and
1:14:37how well it was able to execute during
1:14:39those times and I think we will talk
1:14:40about that on a future show but in
1:14:43general this this quality focused thing
1:14:45I think is positive real and we'll have
1:14:49real results but we'll find ourselves
1:14:51back yet here in about ten years at
1:14:53minimum or a maximum rather and that's
1:14:56just the nature of the beast and we just
1:14:58need to learn to learn to write it out
1:15:00so I'm I'm optimistic I you know what I
1:15:04keep saying i optimistic until I see
1:15:06what they do with the Mac Pro because if
1:15:07they disappoint me though they're all
1:15:08really crushed me but I think I may be
1:15:10unique in that regard well but and the
1:15:12Mac Pro is actually a really good you
1:15:15know thing to mention here it's like
1:15:16they told us directly like officially on
1:15:19the record that they're working on a
1:15:20great new Mac Pro that this you know
1:15:22that our Mac Pro problem will be solved
1:15:24and honestly half of us I think our Mac
1:15:26Pro problem was solved by the iMac Pro
1:15:27it's pretty great
1:15:28but like you know but for like the the
1:15:30you know the modular upgradable tower
1:15:32or module upgradeable Mac Pro I don't
1:15:34know if Tuvia tower that's still a giant
1:15:36unknown they said they promised it will
1:15:38be better but until it actually comes
1:15:41out we don't know that it will be better
1:15:42and so like it's like great uh we know
1:15:44that was great talk to get but we
1:15:46haven't seen the actions yet so we can't
1:15:49really say whether that's you know an
1:15:52actual positive thing or not and and
1:15:56this one more minor point is that we've
1:15:58talked about this in the past as well
1:15:59it's particularly for the Mac where like
1:16:02the phone obviously they're still doing
1:16:04great in the phone and they have fierce
1:16:05competition in the phone right so I bet
1:16:08they're gonna still be running pretty
1:16:09hard on the phone front and so far they
1:16:11have been running hard they've been
1:16:12chipping good phones so good on them
1:16:14right so obviously the highest priority
1:16:15to do a good job on it you know I don't
1:16:18expect that to change that much the OS
1:16:20that runs in the phone you know the push
1:16:23features out here and there I think
1:16:24they've they don't feel as much pressure
1:16:26from the competition as they did back
1:16:27when they had really you know back when
1:16:29Android was just so far ahead of them in
1:16:31terms of notifications and stuff and
1:16:33multitasking and stuff like that I think
1:16:34that you know it's it's a closer race
1:16:36now but the Mac the the fantasy
1:16:38opportunity that the low-level engineers
1:16:40would love to seize upon us like boy
1:16:42imagine if we could have you know sets
1:16:46of people permanently responsible to for
1:16:49every important part of the system and
1:16:50those people's just sat there and drain
1:16:52their bug queues and like improve
1:16:54performance and test coverage and drain
1:16:55their bug queues for like three years to
1:16:58make and why would you do that how can
1:16:59you afford to do that because the max
1:17:01competition is not moving as fast as the
1:17:04the phones in the tablets competition
1:17:05right
1:17:06not as much action is happening down
1:17:08there and if you're trying to try to
1:17:10find a role for the Mac in the company
1:17:12it could one possibility as we discussed
1:17:14and shows in the past is it to make it
1:17:16the super reliable bulletproof
1:17:18industrial-grade you know never crashes
1:17:21never does the wrong thing just does
1:17:24what it's supposed to do
1:17:26reliably make that the reputation of the
1:17:29Mac make it seem you know you're in
1:17:32exchange for boringness and for slightly
1:17:34slower or perhaps you know much slower
1:17:36rate of change you get massive
1:17:38reliability so staff up the Mac teams
1:17:41drain those bug queues improve your test
1:17:43coverage improve performance and memory
1:17:45usage and all those that
1:17:46of things you know this is assuming
1:17:50there's no major components still need
1:17:52to be written because there may still be
1:17:53things lurking in there and then do that
1:17:56for a couple of years to restore the max
1:17:58reputation and to make it more
1:18:01attractive to the people who are most
1:18:03likely to use the Mac before you go on
1:18:05to the next cycle whatever that is the
1:18:06marzipan thing and now it's time for the
1:18:08Mac take its next evolution time to get
1:18:10radical again I don't think that will
1:18:12happen but that is one way that you know
1:18:15were the were the people who seized on
1:18:17this opportunity able to really seize on
1:18:19it I'm sure that's the dream of lots of
1:18:23low level people who work on the Mac and
1:18:24who are sick of ignoring your bugs
1:18:26justice you are sick of them ignoring
1:18:28them I mean this is definitely a good
1:18:30thing I don't see any way we can spin it
1:18:33as a bad thing but fast forward to what
1:18:35episode are we on like 265 fast word
1:18:37episode I don't know 3:10 but Phenom I'm
1:18:44excited about this as much as I'm I'm
1:18:45joking around I'm really excited about
1:18:47this I think this is a good sign that
1:18:49that Apple's seeing we're seeing and
1:18:52it's also tough too because you know we
1:18:55don't get to see all the like I don't
1:18:57know if analytics is the right word for
1:18:58it but like the analytics data that that
1:19:00Apple sees and they may see that that
1:19:02you know hard crashes and software are
1:19:05trending down over the years and and I
1:19:09think that that that very well could be
1:19:12true but it seems to me that it's the
1:19:15kind of Wiggly stuff that's that's
1:19:16really been letting us down lately like
1:19:19Siri just not working when you want it
1:19:21to for example let alone just you know
1:19:23answering the question incorrectly I
1:19:25don't know it's tough and it's it's I
1:19:28don't know what to make of it but no
1:19:31Steven Sinofsky is that how I pronounce
1:19:33that I think something like that wrote a
1:19:34tweet storm about this and we'll put a
1:19:37link to either the tweet storm or he
1:19:39eventually wrote a blog post about it
1:19:40we'll put some sort of link in the show
1:19:41in the show notes but I wanted to call
1:19:43out a few tweets of his he was a he was
1:19:45a Microsoft engineer and headed up a lot
1:19:50of their bigger software products if not
1:19:52most of software I don't know exactly
1:19:54where he was when when he left Microsoft
1:19:56but supposed to say the guy knows what
1:19:58he's talking about and he knows what
1:19:59he's talking I when I come
1:20:00to delivering software to lots and lots
1:20:03and lots of people and so in some of the
1:20:05tweets he wrote and this was a tweet
1:20:07number 28 of his tweets to him I know
1:20:09whatever
1:20:09anywhere has delivered a general-purpose
1:20:11piece of software and hardware at scale
1:20:13to a billion people delivering such a
1:20:15broad robust consistent experience we
1:20:17don't have a measure for what it means
1:20:19to be quote high quality quote I can say
1:20:21that in any absolute sense Apple has
1:20:23exceeded everyone else and that's kinda
1:20:24what I'm talking about right like you
1:20:26know it may be that that really the
1:20:28software quality is is good it's getting
1:20:30better but it's in terms of crashes
1:20:33perhaps and we've talked about this more
1:20:34than once on the show but maybe it's
1:20:37getting worse in some of the the kind of
1:20:39gray area that's harder it's harder to
1:20:41track Steven continues in tweet 31 but
1:20:44what happens to a team as complexity
1:20:46evolves is simply the challenge of
1:20:47coordination and more importantly
1:20:48consistency or leveling of decisions
1:20:51across a complex system this is
1:20:52particularly acute if the bulk of the
1:20:54team has only known the previous few
1:20:55years of success he continues in 32 so
1:20:58Apple will just renew their engineering
1:20:59process it means thinking about how risk
1:21:02is analyzed how schedules are
1:21:03constructed how priorities are set this
1:21:05is literally what it means to run a
1:21:06project and what we are all paying them
1:21:08to do so in conclusion so to me on Apple
1:21:11this is Steven to me on Apple even as an
1:21:13outsider I feel confident saying that
1:21:14this isn't reactionary or crisis or
1:21:17response to externalities importantly it
1:21:19isn't a massive pivot or a student body
1:21:21left
1:21:22it's a methodical in predictable
1:21:23evolution of an extremely robust and
1:21:25proven system so the short short version
1:21:28is hey when you have a lot of people
1:21:29writing a lot of code for a lot of
1:21:31different systems every once in a while
1:21:33just like John said you're gonna have to
1:21:34sit back and take stock and say we got a
1:21:36we got a tweak a few things and that's
1:21:38what they're doing I think what Sinofsky
1:21:39missed is the cyclic nature of just like
1:21:41yes this is this is totally routine
1:21:43thing that happens and that it happens
1:21:45repeatedly like I don't know I get that
1:21:48that forms a kind of a rollercoaster
1:21:49that people don't like they'd rather see
1:21:51just like a gentle slope from you know
1:21:53with constant improvement I've never
1:21:56seen that happen in the real world but
1:21:59the cyclic nature of it can make you can
1:22:01make you jaded if you are a long time
1:22:02employee or a long time engineer and be
1:22:04like yeah this always happens or
1:22:06whatever but that you know the problems
1:22:08just come back I think that's true but
1:22:11that's but it's better if you don't do
1:22:14the
1:22:14banan rollercoaster just becomes a down
1:22:16rollercoaster there just goes down
1:22:17forever and you never do make that
1:22:18adjustment so I've you know I fully
1:22:20believe that these type of adjustments
1:22:22have gone on an apple for the entire
1:22:24life of the company and will continue to
1:22:25go on and you just you know you just
1:22:27have to roll with it but I'm ready I'm
1:22:29ready for an upswing I think everyone is
1:22:31yep big time
1:22:33Barton Meeks writes in do you think the
1:22:35modular Mac Pro will provide a solution
1:22:37to a Mac Mini update at a reasonable
1:22:39price nope nope Alastair Campbell writes
1:22:42in you've alluded to a negative effect
1:22:44of running movies at the wrong framerate
1:22:45but I must have missed the original
1:22:47explanation I'm wondering if it is
1:22:49better to hand break blu-rays at 24 or
1:22:5130 frames per second what's the good
1:22:54digital backup for you and John you seem
1:22:56to be the most opinionated about this so
1:22:57do you want to take this one so the
1:22:59negative effect of running things at the
1:23:00wrong framerate is if they're not nice
1:23:02multiples of each other and has to show
1:23:04frames for different amounts of time but
1:23:06the video content we have expects you to
1:23:08show a refrain from equal amount of time
1:23:09whether it's one thirtieth of a second
1:23:11or one twenty-fourth of a second or
1:23:12whatever if you show some frames longer
1:23:14than you show other frames it can make
1:23:15motion look stuttery because it's it's
1:23:17like long long short short short long or
1:23:19whatever it doesn't you might not notice
1:23:21then lots of still images and maybe you
1:23:22don't notice that much in motion but it
1:23:23doesn't quite look right so that is the
1:23:25negative effect you don't want that it
1:23:29asking whether it's better to handbrake
1:23:31to to encode blu-rays at 24 or 30 you
1:23:34should encode them at whatever the the
1:23:35frame rate of the original source
1:23:37material is so if it's TV show and it's
1:23:39a twenty nine point nine seven whatever
1:23:40encoded at that frame rate if it's a
1:23:42movie and it's the 24 encoded at that
1:23:43frame rate don't do any kind of
1:23:45conversion whatever the source framer it
1:23:47is keep that and what's a good digital
1:23:49backup I'm assuming you mean like take
1:23:52it off of your class discs and put it
1:23:54somewhere you have to just rip the data
1:23:56exactly as is no transcoding no anything
1:23:58if you really want to have a digital
1:23:59backup use something like make MKV or
1:24:01whatever to just pull the bit the bits
1:24:02off the disk exactly as is with no
1:24:05conversion of format whatsoever and that
1:24:07is the only digital backup then you can
1:24:09have of stuff like this the best digital
1:24:11backup is perhaps to buy all these
1:24:12things in the cloud and then you don't
1:24:14have to worry about storing them but
1:24:15then you have to worry about the company
1:24:16going out of business and you're having
1:24:17no way to watch that stuff anymore which
1:24:19leads us into our next question
1:24:20the next question is from Benjamin
1:24:23ischium John you've mentioned that you
1:24:25prefer ebooks to paper books how do you
1:24:26deal with DRM slowly making your
1:24:28books inaccessible over time Benjamin
1:24:30continues I quote unquote own a couple
1:24:32of palm digital media books that I'll
1:24:34never be able to read again so this is
1:24:37tricky it's a lot there was a lot of
1:24:39churn in the e-book business early on
1:24:41some people who made in Soul the ebooks
1:24:44no longer do so I worked for prom
1:24:46digital media back when we have the
1:24:48largest ebook store in the world if you
1:24:50can believe it this is before Hamazon
1:24:51entered the game and many many things
1:24:55went wrong there but anyway they were
1:24:57DRM in comfort and if you purchase them
1:24:59from the store you could read them in an
1:25:00application that was ported to all sorts
1:25:02of different platforms so it eventually
1:25:05went down the drain and that business of
1:25:07selling ebooks went down the drain with
1:25:09it more or less and eventually you get
1:25:10to the point where the you know the iOS
1:25:13reader application which existed for
1:25:15many years like doesn't even launch
1:25:16anymore I think it's probably because
1:25:17it's 32-bit these days so you've got
1:25:19these DRM encumbered ebooks that you
1:25:22quote-unquote own that you can no longer
1:25:24read or that you can only read on like a
1:25:25really old Mac that can still run the
1:25:27role to reader software or whatever so
1:25:29what to do how do you deal with that I
1:25:31do still prefer ebooks just for the
1:25:33convenience or whatever I understand the
1:25:35limitations they provide but I think the
1:25:36convenience is worth it for me in
1:25:39general these days you're buying ebooks
1:25:41from one of the modern vendors most of
1:25:45them there's some shady way for you to
1:25:48crack their DRM and to make them
1:25:50unencumbered
1:25:51so you're still stuck with the format I
1:25:53can convert them to ePub or whatever but
1:25:5550 years ago you want to read your epub
1:25:57isn't like we have nothing they can read
1:25:58bub epubs you know HTML died and the you
1:26:01know the fire of the nuclear Armageddon
1:26:04and whatever you know who knows you
1:26:05don't be able to read your epub so the
1:26:06point is it's not DRM encumbered at
1:26:08least you're only limited by the format
1:26:09for palm those are media books
1:26:12specifically I don't know if there's a
1:26:14way to crack them you can try the
1:26:17application calibre which i think is
1:26:19used to crack a whole bunch of the the
1:26:22Amazon stuff with certain plugins or
1:26:23whatever but plums as a media ebooks
1:26:26were originally encrypted with your
1:26:28credit card number they used to buy them
1:26:30and if you if you don't know the credit
1:26:32card number with modern computing
1:26:35hardware I can tell you that it should
1:26:36be feasible to brute-force crack them
1:26:39but I don't know because this is a long
1:26:41time
1:26:42I don't know of any actual application
1:26:44that understands enough about the DRM to
1:26:47actually brute force it but I believe
1:26:48that you could in reasonable amount of
1:26:50time literally brute force crack it's
1:26:51much easier if you just know your your
1:26:52credit card number the palm eBook format
1:26:55was actually very simple so if you can
1:26:57get the data out you can easily convert
1:26:59it to ePub or some other more modern
1:27:01format I know that doesn't help too much
1:27:03I'm sure I myself have some purchased
1:27:07palm digital media books and peanut
1:27:09press ebooks that I can no longer read
1:27:11but in most cases I also have those
1:27:15books in epub from a different source
1:27:16and also in paper sitting to the right
1:27:19than me right here so if you're really
1:27:20worried about it buy the paper copy and
1:27:22don't keep them in the basement that'll
1:27:24flood because you'll lose your paper
1:27:25books that way nothing you'd know thanks
1:27:29to our sponsors this week betterment
1:27:31Squarespace and simple contacts and we
1:27:33will talk to you next week now the show
1:27:38is over they didn't even need to begin
1:27:41because it was accidental accidental
1:27:49research Marco and Casey wouldn't let
1:27:52him
1:27:52because it was accidentally was
1:27:56accidental you can find a s ey L is s so
1:28:12that's K sealless ma accion AR m auntie
1:28:17Marco Arment know what made me think of
1:28:40this to be honest but obviously I've
1:28:42been going back and forth about you know
1:28:44if I'm going to buy a car which I'm not
1:28:46convinced I am actually what should I
1:28:47buy should I get a Jeep Wrangler should
1:28:49I get it go go far should I get
1:28:51something else entirely a new BMW etc
1:28:53and it occurred to me that I think to me
1:28:57or to some degree I am as well but
1:28:59particularly you to have self pigeonhole
1:29:02to have pigeon-holed yourselves and to
1:29:04specific you know kinds of cars Marco
1:29:06you've basically said that until
1:29:07something dramatic changes you're gonna
1:29:09be a Tesla owner until the end of time
1:29:11John you know unless something dramatic
1:29:14changes like you know money raining from
1:29:16the skies right over your house yo your
1:29:18seemed to be an accord guy for at least
1:29:20the foreseeable future so I have for
1:29:23each of you a question and I'll start
1:29:26with Marco you know if if you couldn't
1:29:29buy a Tesla and then I'll even broaden
1:29:32it to if you couldn't buy an electric
1:29:35car and and you've made a very plain
1:29:36that that's what you prefer but if you
1:29:38couldn't buy an electric car just out of
1:29:40curiosity what would you buy so I saw
1:29:43this in the notes earlier I've been
1:29:44thinking about it this evening and and
1:29:46unfortunately I don't really know enough
1:29:48about like what cars are available these
1:29:50days to have a great answer yeah what
1:29:53has happened but I'll tell you you know
1:29:54very high on the list would be the new
1:29:56m5 because you know even though it
1:29:59doesn't have a transmission I would like
1:30:01I really enjoy having a fast large sedan
1:30:06now there's lots of options within that
1:30:07you know obviously you know and I should
1:30:10probably list in this list something
1:30:13from like Mercedes or Porsche something
1:30:15but I just don't know their lineups at
1:30:16all
1:30:17ow d might be somewhere on the list
1:30:20because honestly one thing I really
1:30:22enjoy about the Tesla that I didn't
1:30:23expect to enjoy as much as I do is
1:30:25having the nice big hatchback trunk and
1:30:28so I know like the Audi a7 is kind of
1:30:32similar in like size and and trunk
1:30:34nature and also hideous yes it's pretty
1:30:37bad looking so yeah oh you're so I would
1:30:43probably I would probably at least give
1:30:44that like a look just to see if I could
1:30:46tolerate it because I do I do like
1:30:47having a large facet and that is also a
1:30:49hatchback without being a wagon or an
1:30:51SUV or a crossover so so that's great so
1:30:55yeah probably on the list would be you
1:30:56know maybe look at the a7 maybe you know
1:30:59maybe look at the new m5 I would
1:31:00probably look at you know whatever
1:31:02mercedes offered in the same thing I
1:31:05also might just consider a regular 5
1:31:06series like a 550 or even a whatever the
1:31:08540 is these days I might look at those
1:31:11because you know the the m5 was it was a
1:31:15fun time in my life but I have now grown
1:31:19to appreciate the value of a quiet car
1:31:23I like having a quiet car that is also
1:31:25fast I feel like I don't need to shout
1:31:28to the world how fast my car is with
1:31:31noise but ultimately when I Drive other
1:31:36cars now like I so I went on a trip
1:31:39which is why were a couple days late and
1:31:41on the trip I rented a Nissan Maxima and
1:31:43it was a perfectly nice car it had lots
1:31:46of great features you know lots of a
1:31:47nice little luxuries inside I'm very
1:31:48happy I rented it we were somewhere very
1:31:50cold and I was having the heated seats
1:31:51but like it just feels like going so far
1:31:55backwards to both have a gas car and to
1:31:59have some like little entertainment
1:32:01system on like a six inch screen with
1:32:03like you know running basically DOS feel
1:32:07to me and when I occasionally have to
1:32:09drive Tiff's car which is a modern BMW
1:32:113-series
1:32:12it doesn't feel modern to me anymore
1:32:14like it feels old like using I Drive you
1:32:17know everything about a gas car
1:32:19like you know starting it up putting it
1:32:20in gear and haven't remember like
1:32:22actually like turn it off and lock it
1:32:24like an animal yeah like it's it it
1:32:28doesn't it just doesn't feel great to me
1:32:30so I think if I had to get a gas car
1:32:33again I might actually go lower end than
1:32:38like an m5 or something because I don't
1:32:41get the enjoyment out of that anymore
1:32:43that I used to like it's almost it's
1:32:47it's like well this is I was gonna say
1:32:49it's like you know getting back with
1:32:51your high school girlfriend but I don't
1:32:53really have any basis on which to say
1:32:54that because I never really had
1:32:56girlfriends in high school because I was
1:32:57just terrible at everything so but like
1:33:00it's like I've moved past that in my
1:33:02life now like I I had a great time with
1:33:04loud fast cars but now I'm perfectly
1:33:07happy with quiet boring more comfortable
1:33:10cars that also happen to be fast so I
1:33:13would probably just get something fast
1:33:16but not too ridiculous that's why I'm
1:33:18thinking maybe like a 550 or something
1:33:20like that
1:33:20mmm sure enough I I want to hate the new
1:33:25m5 because it does use the ZF 8-speed it
1:33:29from not mistaken which is very good but
1:33:31I I can't believe the m5 can't be had
1:33:34with a stick anymore but oh my word all
1:33:36the initial reviews of the new m5 zero
1:33:41to 60 in like between 2.8 and three
1:33:43point two seconds depending on who you
1:33:44ask like it's a ninety million pound
1:33:48full-size sedan going to 60 in three
1:33:51seconds like I I probably have mentioned
1:33:53this on the show 44 times but when I was
1:33:55a kid and really getting into cars I
1:33:57remember that like having a 0-60 time in
1:34:00the four second range was like
1:34:02Lamborghini and Ferrari territory like
1:34:04nobody could get to 60 in four seconds
1:34:06and here it is this m5 will do it in
1:34:09maybe two worst case low threes like
1:34:12yeah god it's just bananas I'll tell you
1:34:15what like you know maybe maybe one other
1:34:17direction that I might want to go is
1:34:18like you know if I can't get my nice big
1:34:20comfort boat from space like maybe if if
1:34:25Tiff's car could become the family car
1:34:26that could hold a lot and be big then
1:34:29then maybe I would I would do something
1:34:31that electric currently is not very good
1:34:33something small and light and fast and
1:34:35fun so you know maybe something like uh
1:34:37nem - or like a caiman or you know
1:34:40something like that
1:34:41like something that electric cars really
1:34:43can't be very well yet that's
1:34:46interesting
1:34:47do you miss the the 1-series them ever
1:34:50occasionally like but but not not
1:34:53significantly like I I would love to saw
1:34:56at some point drive the new m2 or even
1:34:58the 235 like that like the you know the
1:35:00m235i would love to drive either of
1:35:03those just because I they do by all
1:35:05reviews and accounts they do sound like
1:35:07they're pretty fun little cars I think
1:35:10that would be fun to drive those and and
1:35:12to you know to consider those if I
1:35:14couldn't have my big comfort boat but
1:35:16but ultimately like I I've gotten
1:35:19slightly older and a lot more boring and
1:35:21I kind of just like my fast comfort boat
1:35:23now so it's it's hard for me to really
1:35:25give this question an honest answer or
1:35:28honest consideration because I just my
1:35:30head's not in that space anymore yeah
1:35:33that's fair I I drove an m235i which is
1:35:36now an m240 I and it was it was really
1:35:40great like I wouldn't say that there was
1:35:42anything tremendously remarkable about
1:35:46it it was just a fun small you know a
1:35:50nimble car which there's some to be said
1:35:53for that right you know it was just it
1:35:55was really nice in that regard and and I
1:35:57had a lot of fun with it alright so
1:36:00moving on to well John you have any
1:36:02comments on Marcos choices not to say
1:36:05that this was really designed to create
1:36:06an argument but but far be it for me to
1:36:08not give you a chance to respond any
1:36:09thoughts I was gonna start by telling
1:36:12Marco dieter but anyway okay my answer
1:36:14so the best direct replacement that's
1:36:17non electric direct replacement for his
1:36:18Tesla is the Panamera has a hatchback
1:36:21the new version of Samus ugly is the old
1:36:24one it's really fast and fun to drive it
1:36:26seats four which should be adequate for
1:36:28his needs and yeah I think you would I
1:36:31think he would end up there because I
1:36:32think it is more exciting than the the
1:36:35five series and you know shape wise like
1:36:38it practically looks like a Model S at
1:36:40this point so I think we have a lot of
1:36:42fun with it there's still not good
1:36:43looking you gotta see it in person it's
1:36:45not it III think they actually are
1:36:47good-looking III didn't the old one
1:36:49obviously had the weird hunchback the
1:36:51look it wasn't nice this is much more
1:36:53nicely proportionate when you see it in
1:36:55person like the Model S which I think
1:36:57looks kind of dowdy in pictures when you
1:36:58see it in person you realize it is lower
1:36:59and wider than you thought and it has a
1:37:01nice presence in person I know because I
1:37:02see them all over where I live yeah I
1:37:05mean looking at the Islamic than shown
1:37:06their website everything you know
1:37:08because I really have enjoyed a
1:37:10hatchback
1:37:11I would I would give this I would give
1:37:13this a look but I wouldn't feel good
1:37:15about it and and everyone said like the
1:37:16this behaves the is the least sedan like
1:37:20of all of the big sedans like everyone
1:37:22says no I'm but I mean like in terms of
1:37:26not feeling heavy and like a boat right
1:37:29that it feels nimble and you know it
1:37:31feels like a slightly bigger Cayman it
1:37:33doesn't feel like a souped up you know
1:37:36Cadillac or whatever yeah they're
1:37:38they're making an electric too by the
1:37:40way so Marco actually might be in the
1:37:41market eventually when when their
1:37:43elections come out cuz they will
1:37:44actually have a direct electric
1:37:45competitor to Tesla and that's another
1:37:47reason Marco will be in the Porsche
1:37:49dealership well and like like their
1:37:50their concept like the is the mission EE
1:37:52they're comfortable a year or two ago
1:37:54that did look really cool but it's just
1:37:56a concept and you know it's who knows
1:37:58what will actually ship and when it does
1:38:00ship there's there's a big question of
1:38:02charging stations like Tesla has a lot
1:38:04of superchargers and they keep adding
1:38:06more at a pretty remarkable rate you
1:38:09know I know there's like the the you
1:38:11know standard based networks that are
1:38:13also out there but but Tesla has a
1:38:16pretty big head start and they're in a
1:38:18lot of places and there are places that
1:38:20I go like they now cover upstate pretty
1:38:23well like what that used to they used to
1:38:24have very little coverage now they have
1:38:25great coverage like they're they're
1:38:27getting all over the place and so
1:38:29anybody who comes in with with a you
1:38:32know major long-distance electric car
1:38:35competitor is going to have a pretty
1:38:37serious fight ahead of them to get past
1:38:38the supercharger network well you should
1:38:40worried about though is when the hell
1:38:42they can replace the Model S because
1:38:44this is always comes out in comparison
1:38:47test where like one model that is one
1:38:49the comparison test for the five years
1:38:51running is at the end of its its
1:38:52generations lifetime and it's about to
1:38:54be redesigned and it comes up against
1:38:55the newly redesigned competitor and then
1:38:57loses for the first time and so yeah the
1:39:00Model S is great
1:39:01but you can't just keep the same car
1:39:03with minor interior and exterior tweaks
1:39:05for 15 years you have to you have to
1:39:09come up with the next version and the
1:39:10next version has to be better so
1:39:12presumably everybody who's targeting
1:39:13Tesla they've got the Model S in their
1:39:15sights they know that what their
1:39:16benchmark they have to beat and they're
1:39:18gonna end up beating it you know setting
1:39:20aside the the charger network things
1:39:21Tesla but you would fully expect
1:39:24okay well Tesla's gonna be the two with
1:39:25the next Model S and mostly how that
1:39:27goes I am very very curious to see what
1:39:31the heck the next Model S is because
1:39:33they've done a lot of things with the
1:39:35Model 3
1:39:35that sound really good to me and a few
1:39:38things that sound really bad to me what
1:39:41are they gonna carry over like the like
1:39:43the single screen thing nope not for me
1:39:46that does not sound good the elimination
1:39:48of the of the auto steer cruise control
1:39:51stock nope don't like that but things
1:39:54like you know having the one giant vent
1:39:56across the top and having the way faster
1:39:58more responsive touchscreen that sounds
1:40:00great
1:40:00so yeah there's things I like from model
1:40:033 we'll see what they actually bring
1:40:04over right I really hope they don't ruin
1:40:06it the seat it seems like every Tesla
1:40:09Model they do like almost everything
1:40:12right and one thing that's just like a
1:40:15dumb risk they took that didn't pay off
1:40:18that you know ends up being annoying or
1:40:20failure prone so like with the Model S
1:40:21it was the stupid pop-out door handles
1:40:23that fail constantly with the exit was
1:40:25the the weird gull wing doors that you
1:40:27know caused them to have lots of delays
1:40:29and issues Falcon wings please whatever
1:40:31yeah and then with the model three I
1:40:32think they're weird risk they took was
1:40:34having just that one screen and having
1:40:35way too many functions rely on that one
1:40:39screens and like you know some menu
1:40:40there so you know who knows what they're
1:40:42gonna ruin with the next Model S I just
1:40:44hope it's something I can tolerate
1:40:45so John's challenged similar if you had
1:40:50to buy something that wasn't an accord
1:40:52what would you buy mazda6 because it is
1:40:55about the same size it gets good reviews
1:40:57comes with a stick-shift okay and I had
1:41:00its I didn't know specifically what you
1:41:02were going to say but I had a feeling it
1:41:03would be something along those lines so
1:41:05now let's assume for the sake of
1:41:07conversation that a two pedal car is
1:41:10okay just for the sake of conversation
1:41:12I'm not saying this is what you think
1:41:13would that change your too
1:41:15would you choose something different no
1:41:17I've if it's okay no I would never pick
1:41:19okay what porch was not allowed I'm not
1:41:23allowed to have a stick sure let's go
1:41:24with that let's say you're not allowed
1:41:25to have a stick shift I think I might
1:41:31find myself in the one Accord that I
1:41:33recently learned comes with an automatic
1:41:35they not the CVT once but the mom with
1:41:37the automatic interesting okay wait I
1:41:39see you later picking a course let's say
1:41:43no actually I did not specify I didn't
1:41:45specify but yeah good point let's go
1:41:47with no because let's make this more
1:41:49interesting get you out of your comfort
1:41:50zone no no because like now we start
1:41:53getting to spending more money than I
1:41:55want to spend on a car well that's the
1:41:57next question we're not there yet
1:41:59what's the cheapest non disgusting
1:42:03automatic transmission car that it can
1:42:05fit my family that I would buy I don't
1:42:10know does this the Mazda 6 come with an
1:42:12auto sure get that yeah I mean that's
1:42:15what Erin had she had a no I know I'm
1:42:19just saying like she had a 2007 mazda 6
1:42:21Grand Touring it had darn near every
1:42:23option on it it was an automatic and it
1:42:25was a phenomenal car it was a really
1:42:26really really great yeah I think I think
1:42:28I'll get the Mazda 6 with automatic all
1:42:31right so now some you know African
1:42:33Prince has died and bequeath to you all
1:42:36of his money but it's actually legit
1:42:38this time you have you know ten million
1:42:41dollars of with which you can spend on
1:42:43this car what would you buy ten million
1:42:46dollars I mean you have to use all ten
1:42:49that's been part of that on the house to
1:42:51house the car don't worry about your
1:42:55acorn so much I'm worried about it
1:42:58ruined by my kids scrape and their
1:43:00bicycle handles across that as I shown
1:43:01into my little garage don't worry about
1:43:03the acorns just just worry about the car
1:43:05let's just presume that everything else
1:43:07is - and you said I can't no Ferraris
1:43:10you're cheating you're looking at the
1:43:12show notes so show notes it reads as
1:43:15follows John has to buy one non Accord
1:43:17what would he buy next bullet what if
1:43:19two pedals were okay
1:43:20next bullet okay this is in the show
1:43:22notes okay fine now money is no object
1:43:23and it has to be two pedals no Ferraris
1:43:26but let's start with the Ferraris but
1:43:28even though we all know
1:43:29your answer to whatever the the v12 is
1:43:31yeah I was looking at you know I was
1:43:34looking at the 48 again I don't know the
1:43:3548 just hasn't grown on me as much as I
1:43:37thought it would so I'm wondering if I
1:43:39would actually get a 458 or even a 430
1:43:42because I do like both of those cars
1:43:44better but then I look at the interiors
1:43:46they're all kind of weird so I don't
1:43:47know but like practically speaking like
1:43:49I wouldn't if you only let me have one
1:43:51car I wouldn't get any of those because
1:43:52I can't I can't like drive that to work
1:43:54every day and carry your kids kids
1:43:56around then didn't go on vacations is
1:43:58just not practical it has to be like
1:43:59your second or third or fourth car right
1:44:01so I'm I went back into four-door sedans
1:44:04then I'm gonna especially if I'm allowed
1:44:09to get a new house no just don't again
1:44:12don't worry about the house they give
1:44:13the acorns have gone away your kids will
1:44:15not touch the car but it was only one
1:44:18car I think I would end up with like an
1:44:21AMG E Series Mercedes because the
1:44:24s-class as much as I love it I think
1:44:26it's just I think it's just too big to
1:44:29be I think I would like these better
1:44:32because these aren't that small these
1:44:33days I feel like they're more or less
1:44:35accord size they're really fast but also
1:44:38are comfortable and have lots of tech
1:44:40gadgets I'm not even sure if I'd we got
1:44:41the AMG model frankly I'm actually end
1:44:44up with the non AMG model if I felt like
1:44:46that was fast enough for the AMG one was
1:44:48squishy but I really like these and I
1:44:51feel like they are more they're more to
1:44:54my taste I think then then probably the
1:44:56m5 that's that I haven't really seen
1:44:58details about the new m5 so maybe they
1:45:00were just a little and I did like Markos
1:45:01m5 but I just feel like all the all the
1:45:04the bad vibes that you've both given me
1:45:05about BMWs and repair wheels and
1:45:07everything go to the devil I don't know
1:45:10and Mercedes I suppose but you would not
1:45:13get a wagon you would get a sedan yeah I
1:45:15get a sit down do you like wagons in
1:45:17principle I do I just don't think I need
1:45:20one like we just have the two kids and
1:45:21it's not like we're going camping
1:45:22you know I do like wagons I would I
1:45:24would get a wagon over a minivan any day
1:45:25but I just don't feel like I need that
1:45:26extra space up why would I get a wagon
1:45:28when I could just get us a man since I'm
1:45:30now a car journalist I mean I've been
1:45:35considering wagons more and more with
1:45:36each passing day and even though as an
1:45:38American I'm supposed to hate wagons
1:45:40there's something to be said for a fast
1:45:42that has no business being as fast as it
1:45:45is so I'm configuring my Porsche
1:45:47Panamera excuse me it's Porsche sir
1:45:50don't pick the the $20,000 option that
1:45:53gives you like a card key fob the
1:45:56options that they give you are like
1:45:59there's like first of all there's like
1:46:0090 different options that's not an
1:46:02exaggeration and the the it is ludicrous
1:46:06like I thought BMW was crazy with all
1:46:08the little diamonds is the king of oh my
1:46:11god so among other things I have the
1:46:12option to add a six disc DVD changer or
1:46:17nice five hundred and sixty dollars
1:46:19wow that's cheap I can add a USB port in
1:46:21the rear for four hundred and twenty
1:46:24dollars that's just the port I can add a
1:46:26fire extinguisher I don't know where or
1:46:29how for one hundred and eighty dollars
1:46:33like I've never seen this many options
1:46:38it's it's ridiculous I was watching a
1:46:42demurrer video recently I think it was
1:46:44talking about the like the 918 or
1:46:46something but what I think was it a
1:46:49paint car option that was 65 grand there
1:46:51was some there so it was like a cosmetic
1:46:54option that it cost more than like you
1:46:56know most cars so I can get the the air
1:47:00vent slats painted for two thousand
1:47:04three hundred thirty dollars so I do not
1:47:07like the look of this interior at all
1:47:09I bet the interior is is very very
1:47:12highly configurable so it is very highly
1:47:14configurable as long as you're willing
1:47:15to spend two thousand dollars to paint
1:47:17your air slats yeah Porsche it seen it
1:47:19seems like it if you want anything
1:47:22that's not stock it costs a huge such a
1:47:25huge amount of money that you're like
1:47:26did they just buy the stock car and then
1:47:28take out the parts and burn them and
1:47:30then put in new parts like why does it
1:47:31cost so much money god there's so many
1:47:34see like it's
1:47:36holy smokes like and yeah the good thing
1:47:40is like if yeah I think John's right
1:47:42like it you know if you want to
1:47:42customize I mean they have they have
1:47:44like 15 different wheels you can pick
1:47:47like there's there's so many options to
1:47:50this you and a half of them I don't even
1:47:53understand what they would do or why I
1:47:55would want them
1:47:56seat belts in chalk 616 dollars
1:47:59decorative valve stems decorative valve
1:48:02stems in black with colored Porsche
1:48:04crest $70 that's that might be the
1:48:07cheapest thing on this entire list oh my
1:48:12god it's amazing and this is starting at
1:48:14150,000 for the Porsche Panamera Turbo
1:48:16executive oh I didn't go to the
1:48:18executive I stopped at the 4s which my
1:48:21configuration is 124,000 and I haven't
1:48:26even gotten like you know like good
1:48:28seats and everything I think there's
1:48:30like a game with the poor top is it you
1:48:32just you want to get the one with the
1:48:33good engine right and then after that
1:48:36you want to pick like two things that
1:48:39are important to you everything else
1:48:41except stock I think the real answer
1:48:45here is you want to buy these used
1:48:47because like you know used cars you tend
1:48:49to you tend to get a lot of the options
1:48:51basically for free it's like you know
1:48:54it's like you don't you know if you spec
1:48:55up a cart like though the use pricing is
1:48:57based on not all the options is based on
1:48:59like the engine trim level year and my
1:49:01legs like that's a that's about it so
1:49:04like the way to get any of these cars if
1:49:06you want a lot of options is to guys
1:49:08wait for a used one to come up that has
1:49:10a lot of options that someone else took
1:49:11a bath on and you get those pretty
1:49:14nicely I think I mentioned there's about
1:49:16like rolls-royce uh Mercedes last time
1:49:17we talked about it but I'm just so
1:49:18surprised that these companies stick to
1:49:20this I mean I suppose there is some
1:49:21attraction to the the high-end clientele
1:49:24if being able to customize everything
1:49:25especially like on Bentley enrolls and
1:49:27stuff but as Marco is noted in is a
1:49:30salad power user you know diatribe the
1:49:36paralysis of choice I would be terrified
1:49:38that I would be accidentally configuring
1:49:40the world's ugliest rolls-royce right
1:49:42because you have you can choose
1:49:43everything every kind of every material
1:49:45every surface every color everything
1:49:47it's like don't don't trust me to design
1:49:50it especially if they have not-so-great
1:49:52visualization it's like I paid through
1:49:54and 50 grand for this mentally and it
1:49:56looks like a clown car cuz I didn't
1:49:57think about how this color leather would
1:50:00look with this color stitching would
1:50:01look with this material because I'm not
1:50:02a car interior designer just give me
1:50:04some presets like Marco wants for salads
1:50:06and then maybe I'll say let me give me
1:50:09preset and then a little tweak one thing
1:50:11or something cuz I think I scare you I
1:50:13mean I think it mostly nerves in my how
1:50:15scary it would be to buy a car sight
1:50:17unseen like you've never seen a car with
1:50:19this materials you've never sat down you
1:50:20don't know what it's gonna look like you
1:50:21don't know how it's gonna feel and just
1:50:23picking from a menu terrifying so I
1:50:25wonder which people have like other
1:50:27people configure their cars for them
1:50:28right or they just say oh I don't know
1:50:31you just make it nice for me or like the
1:50:33hire car interior designers just like
1:50:35you design you know hire them for your
1:50:37house like poor people you know just go
1:50:40to the Home Center and they pick out
1:50:41materials for their floor and their
1:50:42countertops um whatever and they cross
1:50:44their fingers and hope it looks okay the
1:50:45rich people hire interior designer and
1:50:47you know also cross their fingers I
1:50:50suppose but pay gobs and gobs some money
1:50:51for them to come up with materials and
1:50:54everything that look good together so I
1:50:55wonder if they do that for cars too
1:50:56because it's it's a huge expense and
1:50:58there's just too many choices
1:51:00yeah I'm looking now like I would rather
1:51:02have just a regular five series I think
1:51:03than the Panamera I like you get so much
1:51:07more for the money and it's a way nice
1:51:09looking car even though it does have a
1:51:10little bit of the skin flap issue of
1:51:12modern ones but yeah that's I think I'd
1:51:15rather have that like a job for Casey
1:51:17Casey do you know any interest in being
1:51:19a car option configure to rich people
1:51:22I would love to are you kidding I would
1:51:24Lord you feel the pressure though and
1:51:26not accidentally making an ugly car for
1:51:27them no I really wouldn't because I mean
1:51:32they're rich who cares they're just
1:51:34looking for someone to blame I mean yeah
1:51:36yeah charge your fee it's like interior
1:51:38designers you're the charge of your feet
1:51:39which should be like at least one third
1:51:41of the price of actually doing job
1:51:43purely for like you know what service
1:51:46you provide you tell the much options to
1:51:47pick I have long thought about how fun
1:51:50it would be to be like a car head hunter
1:51:53if you will so you know take me for
1:51:56example when I was buying my 3-series
1:51:57you know I wanted a 335 it had to have a
1:52:00stick it had to have the M Sport package
1:52:02you know and there I think they were one
1:52:04or two other options I insisted upon not
1:52:06white before either view Jim
1:52:09anyway the point is you know I would
1:52:11love to be a owner and we I would love
1:52:14to be a car head hunter that's you know
1:52:15that my job is just like scour
1:52:17Autotrader to try to find that like
1:52:19perfect you
1:52:20horn for somebody I think that would be
1:52:21super fun but anyone who would have the
1:52:24money for that would would be buying new
1:52:25anyway so they would just order one
1:52:27house thank you just you just hang out
1:52:28like honor if you work at the dealer and
1:52:30say we have this person here their
1:52:32services are provided at a very small
1:52:34fee of 50 grand and they will help you
1:52:36select options for your 250,000 dollar
1:52:39car
1:52:41I mean if you're looking to hire me you
1:52:44can find my contact information at KC
1:52:46let's calm yeah 50 grand per car like
1:52:49you you know you can make some some good
1:52:51money doing that for me and honestly if
1:52:53I had the money to buy a Bentley I would
1:52:55gladly pay 50 grand to someone who would
1:52:57prevent me from miss configuring my car
1:52:59and getting an ugly $350,000 Bentley
1:53:01instead I'd have a good-looking $400,000
1:53:03Bentley