Hello Internet Episode One Hundred

1:00:00jokes and the fact that they joke about

1:00:01a thing means that it's not serious and

1:00:03so that they're contributing in this way

1:00:04like I think that's a path down towards

1:00:07crazy town and the only result then is

1:00:09like Oh everybody has to just say things

1:00:11that are perfectly acceptable online

1:00:14like the other thing is I also just feel

1:00:17bad for this guy because his whole life

1:00:22has been on hold while this trial has

1:00:25been waiting to happen

1:00:26and it's been like a year and a half or

1:00:29something before it has actually gone to

1:00:30trial and this is a thing where I have

1:00:32these bad feelings about the Internet

1:00:34where it's like these little storms

1:00:37happen and it's like a person becomes an

1:00:39unperson even before anything official

1:00:43has occurred so even though this guy

1:00:45hasn't gone to trial it's like Oh his

1:00:48whole life has been destroyed for the

1:00:50past year and a half while this is

1:00:52occurring because nobody wants to hire

1:00:55the guy who is waiting for his trial

1:00:58about inciting hate on the Internet to

1:01:01go through and it's like Oh even if he

1:01:03wasn't ever punished like he has still

1:01:06been totally punished in the meantime

1:01:10it's like a terrifying thing in society

1:01:13that that can happen it's like you get

1:01:16swept up in something and so much of

1:01:19your life is destroyed and even if in

1:01:21the end it's like oh we're gonna

1:01:23overturn that case and we're not gonna

1:01:24put you in prison and don't mind about

1:01:26it it's like well the internet never

1:01:29forgets and now no one will ever want to

1:01:32associate with you because you are this

1:01:34person even though like many people

1:01:37don't think you did anything wrong

1:01:38like it just it's terrible for UK law

1:01:40and for people who make anything on the

1:01:43Internet

1:01:43in the UK I'm not condoning it but I do

1:01:45wonder in the back of my mind if it

1:01:47could be the making of him because he's

1:01:48a pretty funny guy he could become like

1:01:49a really funny successful youtuber now

1:01:52again I'm not saying he wanted the

1:01:54attention but now that has happened I

1:01:55hope it becomes the making of him for

1:01:57his sake even if like everything turns

1:01:59up roses for him in the future somehow

1:02:01it doesn't change the fact that it's

1:02:04like okay well who are we gonna bring up

1:02:05next on this obscenity law just start

1:02:08picking youtubers in the UK very early

1:02:12you said like so many people who are

1:02:13leaving comments on reddit hmm I don't

1:02:17know it's like such an incredible

1:02:18overreaction do you have this fear

1:02:20because you're worried that it'll affect

1:02:21you one day because quite often I

1:02:23thought your fears boil down to that

1:02:25somehow lucky you skate one day someone

1:02:27will take something you've done in the

1:02:28wrong context and you'll end up in hot

1:02:30water or you really just being quite you

1:02:33know Noble here and just worried about

1:02:35the world in general I don't know how to

1:02:37say this very well in the context of

1:02:39this conversation because we've just

1:02:40been talking about Nazis right but the

1:02:44ability to express thoughts is extremely

1:02:48important and the power to suppress what

1:02:55thoughts people are allowed to express

1:02:57is terrifyingly powerful it worries me

1:03:03on a society level right like when you

1:03:07ask Oh am I personally concerned not

1:03:09really I produce the most g-rated

1:03:11content in the world and the podcast has

1:03:15a million hours of context around it and

1:03:17I don't think aside from our opening up

1:03:20the wound of the necessary lies of

1:03:21society like I don't think we say

1:03:23anything that's terrible on the show so

1:03:25I'm not personally concerned but I I

1:03:28really do feel that there's something

1:03:30like dangerously corrosive here I always

1:03:35try to stay away from specific political

1:03:37examples because I don't think that that

1:03:39is very instructive but I will mention

1:03:42one that came up like in a conversation

1:03:44with someone so this is like in an

1:03:46American context but the conversation

1:03:48was around the idea of this person

1:03:52basically wanted to make it illegal to

1:03:55deny the fact that climate change was

1:03:57occurring all right they're like you

1:04:00shouldn't be able to express this idea

1:04:02online it should be against the law hmm

1:04:04the reasoning was it's so potentially

1:04:07harmful spreading misinformation around

1:04:10this may be the end of the species right

1:04:13maybe the end of all life on Earth

1:04:15they're like this idea that there's no

1:04:18climate change is so terrible we should

1:04:21put it into law that people are not

1:04:23allowed to express it

1:04:25it's like Oh

1:04:27okay that's absolutely terrifying even

1:04:29if you agree with that that opens the

1:04:32door to the idea that like you're

1:04:34seeding power to a government to tell

1:04:38you what you're allowed to think hey

1:04:40news flash your team isn't in charge

1:04:44right now so how would you feel if a law

1:04:46was passed that said oh you're not

1:04:49allowed to express the idea that the

1:04:51climate is changing then suddenly is

1:04:53like oh I don't like that idea at all

1:04:55like yeah of course this is why like you

1:04:57have to defend the ability to express

1:04:59ideas and thoughts in the broadest

1:05:03possible form and so I feel like any

1:05:06incursion into this territory is just

1:05:10like a big danger yeah so that's why

1:05:13like I feel these stories very strongly

1:05:15and it's like yes I will agree with you

1:05:17like there are tiny areas that we can

1:05:20carve out direct incitement to violence

1:05:22like attacks on a particular person but

1:05:25even then I feel like we need to define

1:05:27that very tightly what do we mean by

1:05:30that it's like there's a cleanliness

1:05:31monster that is going through the world

1:05:35making everything have to be clean and

1:05:38safe we can't even make jokes about the

1:05:41Nazis because the Nazis are not clean

1:05:44and safe right so let's just put some

1:05:46antiseptic over this and just make it go

1:05:48away all right and I think it's bad like

1:05:50I think it's really bad for society and

1:05:53there's something about it that just

1:05:54seems like it's getting worse and the

1:05:56producers is a perfect example psycho

1:05:58fifteen years after World War two we can

1:06:00make an entire movie that makes fun of

1:06:02the Nazis but 60 years after World War

1:06:05two jokes about the Nazis are forbidden

1:06:07they're so dangerous we can't possibly

1:06:09even speak them aloud I don't think

1:06:11that's good for society yeah here's a

1:06:13topic rady where I feel like I need

1:06:15pushback where am I wrong here or do you

1:06:17agree I do fundamentally agree so I

1:06:19don't want to be the good person who now

1:06:21gets up here and talks against free

1:06:23speech the only thing that I don't like

1:06:25about the way you argue this point it

1:06:27doesn't mean I disagree with the point

1:06:28it's just I don't like your stylistic

1:06:30argument and that is I always feel like

1:06:32the people who are like the scumbags of

1:06:35the world who would putting all the scum

1:06:37out there that I hate and the dirty

1:06:39stuff I acknowledge there

1:06:41right to do it right so I'm on your side

1:06:43but I sometimes feel you kind of clothed

1:06:46them in righteous garments when you talk

1:06:48about defending like their right to

1:06:51express thoughts and ideas like this is

1:06:54just people taking a dump everywhere and

1:06:56I feel like you're kind of using this

1:06:58argument of let's have a free debate and

1:07:01you make a lot of these people sound

1:07:04better than they are I don't deny their

1:07:07right to exist and do these things but I

1:07:10wish you didn't make them sound so noble

1:07:12yeah I mean the reason I talk about

1:07:14thoughts and ideas is because I feel

1:07:16like I'm trying to keep it

1:07:18generic yeah but I think by doing that

1:07:20you're bringing a lot of scumbags into

1:07:22the fold of nice people yeah but that's

1:07:24the problem of letting people express

1:07:28all of their thoughts and ideas here it

1:07:29is guess what some people have terrible

1:07:31thoughts and ideas I don't think these

1:07:33people were taking a dump all over the

1:07:35place are expressing thoughts or ideas

1:07:36they dislike taking a dump but they are

1:07:39thoughts and ideas they are concepts

1:07:42expressed with language I don't think

1:07:44that there is a way to draw a circle

1:07:47where we can say we all agree these

1:07:50patterns of words are good and these

1:07:52patterns of words are terrible no no I

1:07:56think we can do that I just don't think

1:07:58we can ban them I think it's fair to sit

1:08:00around and start weighing things and

1:08:02saying that's a good idea that's an

1:08:04interesting thought and idea that's a

1:08:06smart thing you said you there who just

1:08:08wrote you're gay that's not a good

1:08:10thought or idea that's not constructive

1:08:12you're an idiot but you're allowed to do

1:08:14it like that's a perfect example right

1:08:15like the canonical youtube comment

1:08:16you're you are gay yeah perhaps there

1:08:19has been no YouTube comment more

1:08:21frequently said than that one right

1:08:23right and it's like yeah I'll sit here

1:08:25and agree with you like 100 percent like

1:08:26it adds nothing it's no good it's not

1:08:29Plato

1:08:29but I think it's too easy in a

1:08:32conversation to pick a particular thing

1:08:35that we can say like oh we all agree

1:08:37that this is no good

1:08:38but if you're trying to craft laws I

1:08:41think it's really hard to craft a law

1:08:45that can define what do we mean by this

1:08:49and that then as an additional layer can

1:08:52be in

1:08:54forced in a reasonable way and count

1:08:57Acula is a good example of this we're

1:08:59okay if this is the law of the land in

1:09:02the United Kingdom how is it that like

1:09:04just this one guy got swept up by this

1:09:09law and meanwhile like there are actual

1:09:12Nazis like expressing actual Nazi

1:09:15thoughts and that's cool like okay well

1:09:19then you have some kind of bizarre

1:09:22selective enforcement of this I'd love

1:09:25to know the story behind this there must

1:09:26be a bigger story it is amazing isn't it

1:09:29this guy got done with all the other

1:09:31stuff that's out there it's weird I

1:09:33think it's because it was a viral video

1:09:35right so we're just like it becomes a

1:09:36bunch of attention and then someone

1:09:38files a complaint and like now it starts

1:09:40getting run up the chain I feel like for

1:09:41my old days as a teacher I understand

1:09:43very well the concept of like a small

1:09:45thing the instant someone makes an

1:09:48official complaint about it it like oh

1:09:49god like now it's going to be run up the

1:09:51chain and like no one can stop the

1:09:53machine that keeps making this a bigger

1:09:54deal than it actually is right even if

1:09:56no one involved in the chain wants to

1:09:58keep escalating it there's an incentive

1:10:00at every level to keep escalating it so

1:10:02I feel like this can just be like the

1:10:04random weather of the Internet yeah but

1:10:06so that's why I do want to be clear like

1:10:07I'm not saying like everybody has an

1:10:09equal contribution to the conversation

1:10:10because obviously they don't some people

1:10:12are really smart and they can contribute

1:10:14more to conversations some people are

1:10:16really stupid and they don't have very

1:10:17much to add at all anyway you just as I

1:10:19said I agree with you you just asked for

1:10:20some pushback and my pushback is the way

1:10:22you frame your argument I think cloaks

1:10:25these people in garments of

1:10:26righteousness that they're entitled to

1:10:29the garments but I just feel a bit like

1:10:31let me just say the reason that I do say

1:10:34it is thoughts and ideas is it just like

1:10:36when I made those videos about the

1:10:38voting systems a long time ago that

1:10:40there's a reason I don't talk about

1:10:43specific political parties because as

1:10:46soon as you talk about specific

1:10:48political parties the only thing people

1:10:50want is whatever voting system gets

1:10:53their guys into office right that's the

1:10:55one that seems the most fair and you

1:10:58need to have a system where everyone can

1:11:01agree that the election is fair before

1:11:04the election takes place when I'm

1:11:06talking about thoughts and ideas in the

1:11:08public realm we need to talk about them

1:11:10in the most abstract way because if we

1:11:14start talking about like what do we do

1:11:15with good ideas and what do we do with

1:11:17bad ideas like the conversation about

1:11:19how do you manage conversation is

1:11:22already poisoned because everybody has

1:11:25in their own head like the idea of what

1:11:27a bad idea is and then so we should do

1:11:28bad things to bad ideas

1:11:30like the idea of like Oh which side of a

1:11:32debate do you want to not allow to speak

1:11:34so that's why I try to talk about it in

1:11:36general terms because I think that is

1:11:37the only sensible way to try to think

1:11:41through the topic and yeah of course

1:11:43whenever you're discussing freedom of

1:11:45speech and you are defending it you are

1:11:48by definition having to defend the most

1:11:52fringe of fringe people that's just the

1:11:54nature of this conversation and I think

1:11:57it's why free speech defenders are often

1:12:00at a bit of a disadvantage because like

1:12:03by necessity you you're like the guy who

1:12:06has to defend the Nazi joke when it

1:12:09would be much easier to just join in

1:12:11with a sanctimonious crowd and be like

1:12:13he should have phrased it differently

1:12:15like I don't appreciate that joke at all

1:12:17and I don't think it's good for the

1:12:18world I do think he should have phrased

1:12:19it but he's very good how many more

1:12:22people do you have to see step on the

1:12:24landmine before you think hmm

1:12:26maybe I won't walk into that minefield

1:12:28how many people do you have to see get

1:12:30blown up to take it in a slightly

1:12:31adjacent way I'm reading a book which is

1:12:34about the court case that happened with

1:12:35Gawker a few years ago with the Hulk

1:12:38Hogan sex tape and Peter Thiel was

1:12:40funding this lawsuit against Gawker it's

1:12:43an interesting book so far but part of

1:12:46what they're talking about as well is

1:12:47this effect that like gossip columns

1:12:50have on people's ability to think in

1:12:54public and it's like oh people start

1:12:57worrying when there's a gossip column

1:12:59that's going after the technology sector

1:13:01that it it naturally has people close

1:13:04ranks much further than they otherwise

1:13:07would like they're much more reluctant

1:13:09to express any ideas in public because

1:13:12they're worried about it being twisted

1:13:14because like that's what the gossip

1:13:16column does and that's what I mean when

1:13:19I say like I think there's something

1:13:20dangerous in this kind of

1:13:22that is like even if you're a million

1:13:25miles from making Nazi jokes like you

1:13:30said it's you feel like ah the boundary

1:13:33of acceptable conversation has been

1:13:35moved and so if I want to stay far from

1:13:38that boundary I need to move even

1:13:41farther in to only acceptable things you

1:13:44know so it's like I want to stay a

1:13:45hundred metres away from that boundary

1:13:47and we keep pulling that boundary and

1:13:50further and further it has more of an

1:13:52effect than just the people at the very

1:13:54edge and I just don't think that that's

1:13:56good for public conversation fair enough

1:13:58sorry about that I didn't mean to rant

1:14:00for so long you've passed my guy this

1:14:04whole time I've been ranting Brady to

1:14:06the dead fish on the H I love me for my

1:14:09computer screen I never close that image

1:14:12it's still there hello internets this

1:14:16audio sounds terrible because I have

1:14:19just gotten into a hotel room I'm on the

1:14:22last leg of a multi leg trip and without

1:14:26my regular audio equipment and you know

1:14:28when you're traveling it's very easy to

1:14:30find yourself without the stuff that you

1:14:32really need including for example your

1:14:36computer files you grab your laptop and

1:14:39you go but you know what you forgot that

1:14:41thing that's sitting back at home on

1:14:43your desktop what are you gonna do in

1:14:46that scenario well under most

1:14:48circumstances you're just screwed

1:14:50there's nothing that you can do but if

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1:16:33slash hello Internet alright enjoy the

1:16:37rest of the show I I gotta get going so

1:16:42there was a full-page ad in my copy of

1:16:45The Times Sunday Times this morning

1:16:49Mark Zuckerberg kind of apologizing to

1:16:53the world but in that kind of in a

1:16:56weaselly way where he's not really

1:16:58apologizing is also blaming other people

1:17:00right like the way a spider who's

1:17:02pretending to be a person would

1:17:03apologize he's got a terrible signature

1:17:07by the way Matt psycho does he mmm well

1:17:10that's because spiders riding inside of

1:17:12human suits have a really hard time with

1:17:14that finger dexterity that's an

1:17:16interesting theory because it is kind of

1:17:18spider like in fact I took a photo of it

1:17:20to send you so I'll show you maybe this

1:17:24is wrong maybe this is me bullying a

1:17:27public person but I always just get the

1:17:30feeling that Mark Zuckerberg is like

1:17:32there's a spider riding around in a

1:17:33robot that's shaped like Mark Zuckerberg

1:17:35this is the feeling like whenever he

1:17:37talks whenever he moves it's like

1:17:39there's not a person in there there's a

1:17:40spider in there here's my question all

1:17:42right Facebook is in a new controversy

1:17:45to do with data and stuff like that we

1:17:47can talk about it in a minute if you

1:17:48want

1:17:49but my overall question is because this

1:17:50this is gonna keep happening to Facebook

1:17:52because they're a company that seems to

1:17:54cause a lot of controversy is Facebook

1:17:56too big to fail now is facebook gonna be

1:17:59with us forever

1:18:00it's interesting if you'd asked me a

1:18:03month ago I would have said no that I

1:18:06think Facebook is too big to fail but

1:18:10Facebook has done an amazing job of

1:18:14collecting some of the worst PR in the

1:18:17world in a short period of time just at

1:18:21the wrong time zeitgeist why's that

1:18:25people are super receptive to it like I

1:18:28think the idea that hey maybe all of the

1:18:32social media is bad for us was really

1:18:35coming to fruition earlier in the year

1:18:38and then it's like right around that

1:18:39time Facebook had some of the worst PR

1:18:41in the world and then they have this

1:18:43most recent scandal it just might be a

1:18:48perfect storm of things to drive a stake

1:18:52through the heart of Facebook but that

1:18:55being said I think even if it were to

1:18:58happen we are at a technological point

1:19:02in time where there is always going to

1:19:05be a natural monopoly for a social

1:19:09network if you strike Facebook down

1:19:11something else will just grow up and be

1:19:13stronger in its place and will be

1:19:15functionally equivalent to Facebook I

1:19:17mean there has to be one doesn't there

1:19:18for a social network to actually work

1:19:20the way it should they sort of has to be

1:19:22one doesn't there otherwise we're not

1:19:24networked yeah 100%

1:19:25I am really convinced that it's not just

1:19:27Facebook I think that the big tech

1:19:29companies exist in no small part because

1:19:32we're at a technological point where

1:19:34there are these natural monopolies I

1:19:37think that search and video are a kind

1:19:40of natural monopolies that Google has

1:19:42that there will be a super big video

1:19:45site I think it's almost inevitable I

1:19:47almost think that like Amazon is kind of

1:19:49at a logistics and server running kind

1:19:53of natural monopolies that makes it

1:19:55almost impossible for any other company

1:19:56to compete with them I think we really

1:19:58are in a weird phase of the world where

1:20:01that is a truth

1:20:02so these big companies exist and even if

1:20:04we were to somehow break them up it

1:20:06would just take a couple of years before

1:20:08the thing that replaces them is is just

1:20:11as big because everything is pointing in

1:20:13that direction but yeah you're 100%

1:20:14right

1:20:15the social network is the most strong

1:20:18version of that like definitionally

1:20:20there almost has to be one do you use

1:20:22Facebook anymore

1:20:23I haven't used Facebook in any

1:20:25meaningful way in years in any

1:20:27meaningful way but do you use it non

1:20:29meaningful ways yes I do use it in a non

1:20:31meaningful way which is that I have a

1:20:33CGP grey like business page right

1:20:36because if you're a public person

1:20:37Facebook doesn't let you have a personal

1:20:39webpage you have to have this business

1:20:41page I don't even know if it still works

1:20:43but I did have set up like an if this

1:20:46than that trigger that would just

1:20:47automatically post stuff from the

1:20:49website onto that page yeah and so when

1:20:51I can when I say like I haven't used it

1:20:52in a meaningful way that's what I mean

1:20:54like I haven't logged into Facebook and

1:20:56like six months at a bare minimum yeah

1:20:58and even then it would be just to like

1:21:00check on a thing I pretty much checked

1:21:03out of Facebook the instant they started

1:21:06that you need to pay us to send out your

1:21:09posts to the people who follow you on

1:21:11Facebook thing hmm

1:21:12that was for me the day Facebook died I

1:21:15was like okay well I don't use Facebook

1:21:16on a personal level anyway and so if the

1:21:19only thing that I use it for is on a

1:21:20business level and now you're playing

1:21:23the Mafia game of like oh it's a nice

1:21:24business page you have there sure would

1:21:26be a shame if something happened to it

1:21:28then it's like okay I'm out I'm out I'm

1:21:30not really gonna play this game I'm not

1:21:32gonna participate in this so now I

1:21:34haven't used it personally in ever to

1:21:37you yeah I mean I have pages for all my

1:21:41different projects that I maintain yeah

1:21:43I go in there every day and have a look

1:21:45just to check what my friends are up to

1:21:46and I don't post a lot of stuff myself

1:21:49on there unless I'm doing like something

1:21:50amazing like yeah amazing my life is I

1:21:54don't post a pending three weeks in a

1:21:56row sitting at a desk editing videos but

1:22:00and that's the social media effect where

1:22:02everybody's life seems a million times

1:22:03more amazing than yours only the most

1:22:06amazing things they do and of course

1:22:09he's contributing to making the world a

1:22:11worse place by doing that brady you have

1:22:13to post your mundane days as well I

1:22:14think it's a problematic

1:22:16company but I almost feel like it's too

1:22:19big to fail because I look at you know

1:22:20although I don't reach all my followers

1:22:22because of the Mafia thing you mentioned

1:22:24do you have you know followings of all

1:22:25these Facebook pages and it seems like I

1:22:28can't just throw that away again I like

1:22:29ignore us so I mean I can but you

1:22:33totally can right I mean I'm willing to

1:22:36bet that if you dig into your analytic

1:22:38data on YouTube that Facebook is a much

1:22:40smaller portion of the views than you

1:22:42might expect that it is yeah I think

1:22:45you'd be right if that is the case I

1:22:46would certainly encourage you to not

1:22:48waste your time on it because if you're

1:22:50tracking like how much time do you spend

1:22:52on Facebook and how many views does that

1:22:54actually translate into I bet that

1:22:56equation would show very fast that

1:22:57Facebook is not worth actually spending

1:22:59any time on I would definitely say I

1:23:01don't waste time on it I do probably

1:23:03waste time on you know looking at my

1:23:05friends puppy but I don't waste time

1:23:08business on it like if there's a new

1:23:09numberphile video I'll just go in say

1:23:12hey everyone there's a new numberphile

1:23:13video I hope you like it mm-hmm

1:23:14here's the link and then leave and I

1:23:16won't hang around reading comments and

1:23:18you know it's it's perfunctory Facebook

1:23:23terrible I like this much cuz I could

1:23:26have expired a thing you've got me

1:23:27thinking now

1:24:01we have much to complain about we do

1:24:03have much to complain about Braden we

1:24:05may need another 100 episodes gray Oh Oh

1:24:09Brady you can't do that to the people I

1:24:13can't do that to the people

1:24:13can't do that to the people

0:00:00hi this is Dirk from Veritas okay here

0:00:06we go here we go hmm this is Dirk from

0:00:09Vera stab Liam and you're listening to

0:00:10the hundredth episode of hello Internet

0:00:13maybe it's time to stop making fun of my

0:00:15name green vs. yellow tennis balls yep

0:00:20this has become quite the thing yeah

0:00:23I've seen a little bit of this on my

0:00:25Twitter timeline so for people who don't

0:00:28know I'll do the quick background gray

0:00:30and his wife had a little marital

0:00:32discussion about where the tennis balls

0:00:33were green or yellow which caused gray

0:00:35to do a little tweaked poll about it do

0:00:38you think tennis balls are green or

0:00:39yellow lots of people got into it got

0:00:41lots of votes it even got a little bit

0:00:43of like media coverage which was quite

0:00:45funny yeah and we discussed it on hello

0:00:47Internet

0:00:48and it was really interesting what

0:00:49happened as a result of the hello

0:00:50internet discussion there was lots of

0:00:52tim foolery

0:00:53there are several scientific studies

0:00:54done I don't know if you've seen the one

0:00:56that I've popped in the show notes where

0:00:57someone actually took my advice and

0:01:01measured the light spectrum from lime

0:01:04from lemon and from a tennis ball which

0:01:07it was closer to and so you know they

0:01:08wrote up a little scientific report and

0:01:10many a laugh was had and that could have

0:01:13been the end of it except that one

0:01:16listener I think he must have found out

0:01:18that his girlfriend and his girlfriend's

0:01:20father were going to the tennis so he

0:01:23decided to tell them I listen to this

0:01:24podcast they were talking about where

0:01:26the tennis balls a green or yellow and

0:01:28the father who is not a Tim who was just

0:01:31the father of a girl whose boyfriend

0:01:33listens to Holly winter net right was

0:01:35quite taken by this and the next day he

0:01:37found himself in a little gaggle of

0:01:39people who were waiting to meet and get

0:01:41autographs from quite possibly the

0:01:43greatest tennis player ever current

0:01:46world number one tennis player although

0:01:47he's about to just go back down to

0:01:49number two but I think he's the greatest

0:01:51tennis player ever Roger Federer they

0:01:54were all waiting for Roger Federer to

0:01:55walk past between whatever matches he

0:01:58was playing sign a couple of autographs

0:01:59and whisk away and while he was signing

0:02:02these autographs this dad calls out

0:02:03Roger had tennis balls green or yellow

0:02:07and amongst all like the confusion Roger

0:02:10Federer at the question two suddenly

0:02:11took him and he looked up and he went

0:02:13I think he said something long was of

0:02:15the yellow aren't they mm-hmm and then a

0:02:17few other people in the quadrant yeah

0:02:18yeah they're yellow and this guy the

0:02:20dead who was filming this with his

0:02:22mobile phone said I think they're green

0:02:24but lots of other people think they're

0:02:25yellow and then Roger Federer said Nana

0:02:27they're yellow mm-hmm and then walked

0:02:29off you know that in itself I think was

0:02:32a great hello internet moment and I

0:02:35declared then and there that this Tim's

0:02:38girlfriend's dead is gonna get a Hello

0:02:40Internet Medal of Honor is that legal he

0:02:42doesn't even listen to the show but yeah

0:02:44I think he's getting around he's getting

0:02:45one and he's what within enough degrees

0:02:47of separation from the initiating

0:02:49incident that he's gonna get a medal

0:02:51it's never been written anywhere that

0:02:52you have to be a listener to get a Medal

0:02:54of Honor imagine it helps I mean to be

0:02:56fair I don't think we have anything

0:02:57written anywhere about how anything

0:03:00works but yes that's true we haven't

0:03:02written down rules about how the medals

0:03:03work now a lot of people said that I

0:03:05shouldn't be just giving them

0:03:06willy-nilly and I needed your approval

0:03:08but even if you said no to this I would

0:03:10say too bad he's getting one this is

0:03:13what happens people maybe could I

0:03:15stopped him no often I could not I could

0:03:18not would you stop me is the question

0:03:20you wouldn't veto this one surely this

0:03:22is a great moment having the greatest

0:03:24tennis player in history weigh in on

0:03:26this - squabble about the color of

0:03:28tennis books I certainly could disagree

0:03:30with you one you send me a video and

0:03:33from my perspective it's some guy in a

0:03:35crowd is commenting on the tennis ball

0:03:37thing right it's like oh okay

0:03:39great I feel like the medals should be

0:03:42going to actual listeners of the show so

0:03:44I do feel like I can disagree with you

0:03:46but I just you seem so tickled by this

0:03:50that I know there's nothing I can do to

0:03:53stop you from simply mailing out one of

0:03:55these medals to a guy who's going to be

0:03:57very surprised to just get a box that's

0:03:59an award it would be the second one

0:04:03awarded look right I see what you mean

0:04:06about you have to be a listener right

0:04:08like you have to be a citizen of a

0:04:09certain country to win certain honors

0:04:11but I think medals of Honor generally

0:04:13are just for the furtherance of the

0:04:15greatness of hello Internet and this

0:04:17definitely has furthered the cause in a

0:04:19very special way to me so I thought it

0:04:21was fantastic right I thought was

0:04:22absolutely fantastic I had a right laugh

0:04:24at it and that could have been it just

0:04:27so you

0:04:27understand I know you don't really

0:04:28appreciate Who Roger Federer is this is

0:04:30the equivalent of say instead of tennis

0:04:32balls you and your wife had been

0:04:33discussing something about mr. chompers

0:04:36ears you couldn't decide something about

0:04:38his ears or not mm-hmm and then someone

0:04:41went and got an official comment from

0:04:43Charles Darwin about it this is what it

0:04:44is to me this is a level of greatness in

0:04:47the field this is the Charles Darwin or

0:04:49Isaac Newton of tennis hmm he just

0:04:51happens to be alive this means that I'm

0:04:53officially right in your eyes is that

0:04:56how this works well that's another issue

0:04:58I tell you another thing though about

0:04:59Roger Federer that you may not

0:05:01appreciate but you know how there are

0:05:03certain things on the internet that you

0:05:05don't mess with because everyone will

0:05:07jump on you like you know electric

0:05:08fences because they have really jealous

0:05:11followers Roger Federer is one of those

0:05:13things that was about to say can you

0:05:15give me an example of things that you

0:05:16don't mess with on the Internet Brady

0:05:18like what are beehives you are not

0:05:19supposed to poke the sticks you're

0:05:21normally the one who tells me so you

0:05:23don't worry about them than me you're

0:05:25the one who says no we're not talking

0:05:26about that I have never said such a

0:05:28thing braving criticizing Roger Federer

0:05:30is such a beehive never criticize Roger

0:05:33Federer because his fans known as the

0:05:35fed heads Oh God are very zealous

0:05:38this is like tennis Logan Pollard's is

0:05:41that what this is like I'll make jokes

0:05:42about Elon Musk who the cows come home

0:05:44but I'm not saying anything bad about

0:05:45Roger Federer or his fans so annoying

0:05:48that you don't want to like him Brady is

0:05:50that one of these situations no comment

0:05:53no comment from Brady at all so anyway

0:05:55after Roger Federer weighed in on the

0:05:59debate mm-hmm

0:06:00this story for lack of a better word

0:06:03completely blew up and went absolutely

0:06:07everywhere like The Today Show in

0:06:09America it was in all the newspapers it

0:06:12was on all the web sites it was all over

0:06:14the BBC tennis balls yellow or green for

0:06:17like a day and a half or two days became

0:06:19an absolute obsession a media obsession

0:06:23any mention of gray and his wife where

0:06:26it all started or hello Internet had

0:06:28completely vanished from existence lots

0:06:31of teams were upset about this they're

0:06:32like oh they're not mentioning gray and

0:06:34then I'm mentioning hello Internet like

0:06:35that's just what happens with these

0:06:36things yeah but it became absolutely

0:06:38massive you couldn't look anywhere

0:06:41without it coming up do you care or you

0:06:43relieved that you kind of got pushed out

0:06:45of the story or I mean you kept sending

0:06:49me more and more things from stories

0:06:52about where it was being posted and the

0:06:56number one thing no I don't feel like I

0:06:59need to be credited that I worded a

0:07:02tweet that was a discussion about my

0:07:04wife and I and tennis ball like that is

0:07:06the kind of thing on the internet that

0:07:08trying to have any kind of ownership of

0:07:10that is just like an insanity right so I

0:07:13want to be really clear I would have no

0:07:15expectations that by the time this thing

0:07:18gets pattern matched up to Good Morning

0:07:21America The Good Morning America is like

0:07:23Greg and his wife we're having a

0:07:24discussion about tennis balls right like

0:07:26I would not expect that but I did have

0:07:28this different feeling where I kind of

0:07:30did not like you keeping sending me

0:07:32these articles were you like oh look

0:07:33it's over here now three or four I think

0:07:37it was three or four hundred it felt

0:07:39like I would likely continue but you are

0:07:43doing me a disservice here it was not

0:07:44that man it was three or four it wasn't

0:07:47that many but it was also on Twitter

0:07:48like people just kept sending me like

0:07:50hey look the thing is over here okay so

0:07:52there is awesome away where I feel like

0:07:54how can I say this thing without

0:07:56sounding like the world's most jaded

0:07:59asshole I think there's a thing where

0:08:05people want you to be like happy that

0:08:07this thing that you started has spread

0:08:09far and wide throughout the news media

0:08:11and my response to this is not a kind of

0:08:14happiness it's just like enough of these

0:08:17things have happened over the years I've

0:08:18seen this happen with other people

0:08:20enough over the years that this is just

0:08:21like a pattern and I feel like this is

0:08:24what the media machine does like they're

0:08:27looking for things that they know are

0:08:29going to get them views and attention

0:08:31and they will just repeat and pattern

0:08:35amplify that and copy the others what

0:08:37the others are doing

0:08:38yeah and copy the others but they copy

0:08:39the others in this like battle of the

0:08:41memes for attention of who's watching TV

0:08:44and any kind of thing like this where

0:08:45you can divide people in teams like it's

0:08:48going to spread but my feeling people

0:08:50are like oh aren't you excited like it

0:08:52made the New York Times is like not

0:08:54exciting

0:08:54this is like literally the job of these

0:08:58companies is to find things that will

0:09:00get people's attention and to pattern

0:09:02amplify them across time so I almost

0:09:05felt like oh this like thing that was

0:09:06fun for the podcast like now it is

0:09:08everywhere in the world like and it's

0:09:10just been pattern amplified all over the

0:09:12place it was a strange thing to see this

0:09:15spread across the internet but that's

0:09:16what happens like catchy ideas spread it

0:09:19would be like definitionally impossible

0:09:22for them not to spread but that's how

0:09:24these things go they spread across the

0:09:25internet very fast and very far just to

0:09:28be clear I wasn't sending you those

0:09:30things because I wanted you to be like

0:09:31excited or happy or proud I was winding

0:09:34you up basically because I don't know

0:09:37how much you hate the media so the fact

0:09:39that like you and your wife just you

0:09:41know chatting about tennis balls for ten

0:09:43minutes in your house can make it as a

0:09:45news story in The Times of London yeah

0:09:47like I expect you to see that oh my god

0:09:50what where do I live in I'm sending that

0:09:52to you to like poke the grumpy old man

0:09:54and get him more upset about news not

0:09:56like well done you should be proud

0:09:58you've made it yeah I know that's 100%

0:10:01what you're doing which is also why

0:10:02Brady you may have noticed you've got

0:10:03very few responses from me Brady sends

0:10:07the articles through and is like I say

0:10:09nothing back right reply because I know

0:10:13you're trying to wind me up right and

0:10:15that's why I CC your wife into the

0:10:17messages as well because she's polite

0:10:19and replies and she was also getting a

0:10:22bit wound up and I happened to be away

0:10:24while this was going on and you were

0:10:25messaging my wife and I and I was busy

0:10:28but I came very very close to sending my

0:10:31wife a message which would have been

0:10:33something along the lines of like don't

0:10:35keep replying to Brady or just

0:10:36encouraging her because she was all like

0:10:38this is tweeting right this is

0:10:40outrageous she got the joke but yeah no

0:10:46of course of course I know you're trying

0:10:47to wind me up and it fits exactly in

0:10:50like the gray checklist of not media

0:10:53hatred but media sadness disappointment

0:10:57a little bit of despise 'el I'm not

0:11:01angry at the media I'm disappointed yeah

0:11:03I'm disappointed and next time you want

0:11:06to tell me about the brave Fourth Estate

0:11:08protect

0:11:08our democracy from all sorts of ills

0:11:10I'll remind you that they spent lots of

0:11:12time on whether or not tennis balls are

0:11:14green or yellow can I give you that I

0:11:16know we talked about how I will

0:11:19sometimes cut things that you say from

0:11:21the show segments that I find boring

0:11:23sports ball corners sometimes but I have

0:11:26to say that last episode I did have a

0:11:28real crisis of confidence of if I should

0:11:31even put up that section about necessary

0:11:33lies of society there is something about

0:11:35it that just felt like I don't know if I

0:11:37really want to open this door publicly I

0:11:39really did think about it like should we

0:11:41put up this little section we're not

0:11:43really saying anything that's terrible

0:11:44in here this is not like a brand new

0:11:46idea that has never been released into

0:11:48the world but there was something about

0:11:50it that I felt a little bit

0:11:51uncomfortable about but once the show

0:11:54was up then I immediately asked on

0:11:55Twitter like hey everybody tell me your

0:11:57necessary lies to keep civilization

0:11:59together because I'm like well when it's

0:12:00out here let's just double down and it's

0:12:03interesting because I think I got back

0:12:04many terrible answers and that people

0:12:08would just say things that like our

0:12:10phrases that you hear that simply aren't

0:12:12true so I'm trying to think about how to

0:12:15define more clearly this idea like a

0:12:17necessary lie of civilization and I

0:12:20think you're one just then as the

0:12:22transition is totally true like cheaters

0:12:24never win is a kind of civilization

0:12:27propaganda that we have to try to get

0:12:29people on board with even though it's

0:12:30not true anyway so there were a bunch of

0:12:33answers that I thought were not really

0:12:35good or just like aphorisms but I think

0:12:38the best answer that I got was from

0:12:41greed grow on reddit and the necessary

0:12:44lie is that violence is not the answer

0:12:47or violence is not the solution man

0:12:50that is a really great necessary lie of

0:12:53civilization

0:12:54it's almost definitionally there to keep

0:12:57civilization together that like

0:12:58civilization is the resolution of

0:13:02problems without having to resort to

0:13:05violence and that feels like a real

0:13:07ground level kind of agreement that

0:13:10there are plenty of things that you

0:13:12could probably try to solve with

0:13:14violence but we all have to agree

0:13:16together that like we're not going to

0:13:18resort to this tool and we have to agree

0:13:22like this

0:13:22things together like we're not going to

0:13:25resort to violence as a solution but

0:13:28it's like there are plenty of situations

0:13:30where we use violence as the solution we

0:13:32have Wars right or it's like we pay

0:13:33police like to essentially force things

0:13:37to occur so I really like that as an

0:13:38answer for a necessary lie of

0:13:40civilization is like we teach kids like

0:13:42violence is not the answer violence is

0:13:44not the solution and and often can be we

0:13:47just we can't resort to it otherwise

0:13:49we'll be a bunch of chimps tearing each

0:13:52other apart

0:13:52so violence isn't a solution then

0:13:54because ultimately we tear each other

0:13:56apart violence is not the solution if

0:13:58everyone uses violence the violence can

0:14:00be a solution if a select few people use

0:14:02it yeah that's really getting to the

0:14:03core of like we were talking last unlike

0:14:06the psychopathy school of like oh we

0:14:07pull some people apart and we say like

0:14:09hey here's some things you might want to

0:14:10they're actually true or like you're

0:14:11gonna be very successful or very

0:14:13terrible people and being willing to

0:14:16resort to violence is one of those

0:14:17things it's like if everybody does this

0:14:19civilization falls apart which is why

0:14:21it's a necessary lie but like on an

0:14:23individual basis it can kind of work the

0:14:25thing it made me think about which it

0:14:26can it's like how can I don't even want

0:14:28to say it out loud when I was in middle

0:14:30school and like on the edge of being a

0:14:32kid who was about to be bullied a little

0:14:35bit and you know the adults tell you

0:14:37it's like oh I'll ignore the situation

0:14:39you know don't do anything bullies just

0:14:41feel bad about themselves which is also

0:14:43like a weird lie

0:14:44like you hear all of this advice and my

0:14:46experience as a kid was nothing stopped

0:14:50the beginning of bullying faster than

0:14:52adding a little bit of violence into the

0:14:54solution what did you do grey because my

0:14:57question I was gonna ask you was have

0:14:58you ever used violence as a solution and

0:15:00I thought there's no way he'd answer

0:15:01that

0:15:02and you've just offered it up well your

0:15:06criminal past is not criminal it's

0:15:08self-defense

0:15:09what did you do did you punch someone a

0:15:11bully did you punch your bully look I

0:15:13don't even really want to get into the

0:15:14details but it sounds cooler if you

0:15:17don't tell anyway because a lot we can

0:15:19imagine something more awesome I don't

0:15:20know look here's the thing the reason

0:15:22why I would be like a potential bullying

0:15:26target is because I wasn't like a big

0:15:27buff kid or anything like shocked

0:15:29surprised younger gray was kind of a

0:15:32nerd right like total surprise I'm sure

0:15:35- absolutely every

0:15:36oh you mean he wasn't quarterback at the

0:15:40school football team yeah that's not the

0:15:42image of how it was so you just had to

0:15:44lay down a marker once you lay down a

0:15:47marker and the trick is you have to be

0:15:50able to convince the other person that

0:15:52retaliation will be unreasonably large

0:15:55again I don't want to say these things

0:15:57out loud Brady why do I say them into

0:15:58the microphone but it's just you it may

0:16:00here when I was a teacher I would just

0:16:02see it like I had the interesting

0:16:03experience of teaching at mixed schools

0:16:05with both boys and girls teaching at

0:16:07girl only schools and teaching at boy

0:16:10only schools like it was really

0:16:11interesting as an adult

0:16:12to see this like from a different

0:16:13perspective and it's like oh there's a

0:16:16couple of lessons that I learned there

0:16:17like lesson number one is high school is

0:16:21even more awful like viewing it from the

0:16:23perspective as an adult than it was as a

0:16:25kid but it's like oh okay I can see that

0:16:28none of the boys make it through school

0:16:30without being subjected to some kind of

0:16:33physical violence and none of the girls

0:16:35make it through school without being

0:16:36subjected to some kind of psychological

0:16:38violence from each other it's like it's

0:16:40just so obvious

0:16:41I like that violence is not the answer

0:16:42or the solution one I feel like that was

0:16:44just a like a really really great answer

0:16:47to this question and I'll be sure to cut

0:16:51or dramatically cut down this section

0:16:52don't let me leave it up Brady don't let

0:16:55me leave it up we're gonna tear the

0:16:56world apart I don't mean to hello hello

0:16:59internet listeners is there something

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0:17:28do the work you love right now you're

0:17:31listening to a podcast and I'm willing

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0:17:36start a podcast of your own but you

0:17:38don't know where to begin and it can be

0:17:40pretty overwhelming even after having

0:17:43done this for years I'm constantly

0:17:44surprised at how fiddly and fussy doing

0:17:47a podcast can be well

0:17:49Skillshare has podcasting classes and

0:17:52not just one thing on podcasting they

0:17:55cover all of the various ranges from the

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0:18:00to the editing side how to work with

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0:18:15know about how to make a podcast

0:18:17Skillshare has classes on that so again

0:18:20an annual scription to skills share is

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0:18:28hello the first 1,000 people to sign up

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0:18:59supporting hello Internet and thanks to

0:19:01Skillshare for teaching people the

0:19:03skills they can use to make their lives

0:19:06better a thing has happened which we all

0:19:10know we have been waiting for it to

0:19:12happen a bad thing that was inevitable

0:19:15which is we have had now the first death

0:19:20as a result of a self-driving car as in

0:19:23hitting a pedestrian because people have

0:19:24died in their own cars already there

0:19:26have been a bunch of these like leading

0:19:28up incidences I think some of which

0:19:30we've even talked about on the show in

0:19:32the past where like someone is in a car

0:19:35and they're not paying attention or like

0:19:37there's accidents but this is one where

0:19:40it was

0:19:42uber testing a like fully autonomous

0:19:45self-driving car and there was someone

0:19:48behind the wheel who was just like

0:19:50keeping an eye on the equipment and a

0:19:52pedestrian walking a bicycle across the

0:19:55street got hit by the uber and died

0:20:00this to me is like the first like

0:20:03clearest example of someone has died

0:20:06from a self-driving car that was being

0:20:09autonomous and it's a car that is

0:20:11designed to be autonomous in the way

0:20:14that we're all thinking about as opposed

0:20:16to the malfunction of a system which is

0:20:19much more like an assistive driving

0:20:22system or like a lane maintaining system

0:20:24yeah what do you think about this as a

0:20:27moment in time or as a news story that

0:20:30has occurred it's a significant sort of

0:20:32moment like in terms of being a

0:20:34milestone I've seen footage of the

0:20:35accident mm-hm and I've seen what a lot

0:20:37of people wrote about the accident

0:20:39and like to look at it without knowing

0:20:42all the facts like it does seem like

0:20:44this person was crossing the road in a

0:20:47way that wasn't like being super super

0:20:50cautious like they did seem to be

0:20:53crossing the road in a way that looked

0:20:55dangerous but we're also told these

0:20:59self-driving cars can see everything off

0:21:01to the sides and know what's going on

0:21:02and predict these things and so all the

0:21:05people who are saying well of course no

0:21:07one could have avoided that no human

0:21:09could have avoided it how do we expect a

0:21:10self-driving car to avoid it well I will

0:21:13hold self-driving cars to a higher

0:21:15standard but you can only hold them to

0:21:17so high standard if someone wants to die

0:21:19by jumping in love this person did but

0:21:22if someone wants to die by jumping in

0:21:24front of a car they they can still do it

0:21:25with a self-driving car so I think we

0:21:27have to realize people are still gonna

0:21:29die at the hands of self-driving cars I

0:21:32think this was just a a milestone that

0:21:34was always gonna happen

0:21:35it'll slow things down it does make me

0:21:38wonder if when the first person died

0:21:39from an actual car like you know back in

0:21:42the olden days whether or not cars being

0:21:45on the road was stopped for like six

0:21:47months while people rethought the

0:21:48situation like was it the same back then

0:21:51when the first pedestrian got hit by

0:21:52some five miles an hour

0:21:55automobile did everyone go no we can't

0:21:58have these things on the road and go up

0:22:00in arms well there was no social media

0:22:01on which to share these stories

0:22:04who knows how information was spread

0:22:06back in those days of yore nobody nobody

0:22:08knows I think it's interesting because

0:22:10this happened a little while ago and I

0:22:12remem

0:22:13when the first thing that could be even

0:22:15classified as a kind of accident with

0:22:17any self-driving occurred which i think

0:22:18was something like a tesla system a

0:22:20couple years ago on the highway had an

0:22:22accident that became like the first

0:22:23story about this I thought it was

0:22:26interesting to see that that blew over

0:22:28relatively quickly and I feel like this

0:22:31story as well at least from the little

0:22:33bit I've been keeping an eye on it seems

0:22:35like it's blowing its way through the

0:22:38news cycle pretty quickly yeah I don't

0:22:40know if this is actually going to have

0:22:42any significant effect on the

0:22:45development of self-driving cars you can

0:22:48find the video online that shows the

0:22:50camera in front of the car and I agree

0:22:53that it's a case where no human driver

0:22:55could have possibly avoided that

0:22:56accident it's at nighttime the woman

0:22:59walking the bicycle is walking across a

0:23:01highway where there's not a pedestrian

0:23:03intersection and by the time she appears

0:23:06in the headlights

0:23:07the accident is inevitable like there's

0:23:09no way even if the car slammed on the

0:23:11brakes immediately there's no way that

0:23:13you could possibly do it but I feel like

0:23:15I don't need self-driving cars to be

0:23:20better than humans to be on the road I

0:23:23feel like they just need to be

0:23:25equivalent to humans that is my my point

0:23:29of like where can we start putting

0:23:31self-driving cars on the road no I need

0:23:33to be better ok why do they need to be

0:23:35better and how much better because when

0:23:37they need to better cuz we're so bad at

0:23:39driving like L live was unacceptable

0:23:41basically but they don't need to be

0:23:44infallible they need to be more

0:23:46impressive than humans and how could

0:23:48they not be because we're such bad

0:23:50drivers they are already better so I

0:23:52think this debates already over yeah I

0:23:54did see someone on Twitter make a joke

0:23:56or something like a self-driving car has

0:23:58killed one person today and people

0:24:00driving cars will kill 3,000 people

0:24:01today right which is like Oh God it's an

0:24:04unfair comparison in many ways but I

0:24:06think it really does make a point of

0:24:08humans are terrible drivers my feeling

0:24:11there was like I'm happy with

0:24:12equivalency because I think the benefits

0:24:15that you get from the self-driving car

0:24:17then make that mental calculus of is

0:24:19this better it makes it clearly better

0:24:21even if the self-driving cars are only

0:24:23at human level and I feel like it's

0:24:25inevitable that they'll obviously keep

0:24:27improve

0:24:27over time but you're right that it is a

0:24:30case where the story about the

0:24:32self-driving cars is like oh they have

0:24:34lidar which looks in all directions and

0:24:35can see everything it does raise the

0:24:38human expectation that like oh this car

0:24:40should always be able to see all

0:24:42pedestrians in all situations I also

0:24:45wanted to mention the story because

0:24:46there's a thing that has been on my mind

0:24:48for a while with self-driving cars which

0:24:52I find myself wondering or maybe I

0:24:57should say reevaluating my position on

0:24:59how fast this is actually going to occur

0:25:01because when I put out that humans need

0:25:05not apply video a few years ago it felt

0:25:08like things were moving very quickly in

0:25:10the world of self-driving technology and

0:25:12most people were not aware of it and now

0:25:15that people know self-driving cars are a

0:25:18thing and that they exist and people are

0:25:20sort of waiting for self-driving cars it

0:25:24feels like there has been just very very

0:25:28slow progress in this field and I wonder

0:25:33like is this a technology that is going

0:25:34through some kind of s-curve where there

0:25:39was no progress made for a long time and

0:25:41then like the year 2000 s things start

0:25:43to speed up and accelerates and then we

0:25:46hit like 2015 and it looks like oh man

0:25:49it's gonna be here any day and then all

0:25:50of a sudden it starts to really level

0:25:52off like the rate at which we're making

0:25:53progress in this area and I do wonder if

0:25:56it is the case where it's a

0:25:59technological problem where the last 10

0:26:01or 15 percent of the problem turns out

0:26:04to be you know 85% of the actual work

0:26:07that getting a car - not quite human

0:26:10level is much much simpler than getting

0:26:14it to human level like getting it to

0:26:16that last 10% but I am aware that I feel

0:26:19like past me expected there to be more

0:26:22progress in self-driving cars by now

0:26:24then there actually are and I feel like

0:26:27we've only seen the smallest scale tests

0:26:29of these things so you think this last

0:26:3215 10 % that we might be going through

0:26:35at the moment is purely going to be a

0:26:37technological hurdle we haven't started

0:26:39running into the social and political

0:26:41side of things you think it's so

0:26:43technology now it's funny I didn't

0:26:45mention it because that is just not a

0:26:47thing that's even on my radar I really

0:26:48just don't think that that is going to

0:26:50be any kind of significant barrier right

0:26:52I still think it is such a technological

0:26:55advantage if we can get it there that

0:26:57there's no way that the places that say

0:27:00oh we're gonna wait on self-driving cars

0:27:02I feel like that is such a self slowdown

0:27:04that very few places will do that like

0:27:06it would be like banning cellphones

0:27:08because we're not quite sure how

0:27:10addictive they are yet it's like well

0:27:12okay good luck with that

0:27:13but the rest of the world is gonna

0:27:15totally leave you behind

0:27:16and I think that yeah when we do get the

0:27:18self-driving cars it'll be the same

0:27:19thing that if some states or some

0:27:21country say mmm we're gonna hold off on

0:27:24this for a little while it's going to be

0:27:25just such a tremendous economic

0:27:26advantage that they won't be able to do

0:27:28so oh yeah

0:27:29I don't know I wonder if it's just gonna

0:27:31take a lot longer than I expected I hope

0:27:33it doesn't but I'm a little worried that

0:27:34it might well I'm finding every time I

0:27:36think it's gonna take forever at speeds

0:27:38up and every time I think it's gonna be

0:27:39tomorrow it slows down so I've given up

0:27:41all together I have this feeling almost

0:27:43like as soon as we publish this episode

0:27:45again it's going to be like oh and

0:27:47self-driving cars are here in three

0:27:49weeks they're on sale right you can

0:27:50pre-order them now I read an article in

0:27:52the paper this morning that really

0:27:53disappointed me about self-driving cars

0:27:55they hmm they're talking about building

0:27:57into the interface for self-driving cars

0:28:00things to keep people's attention

0:28:02whether it's like you know games of

0:28:04tetris or things like that so that

0:28:07people will stay alert so they can take

0:28:09over the car in an emergency that's not

0:28:11what I want my self-driving car to be I

0:28:13want to be in the back reading the paper

0:28:15or working on my laptop I don't want to

0:28:17have to be ready to take over in an

0:28:18emergency that's an excellent point and

0:28:20I think there is a way where we are

0:28:23actually in a little bit of a dangerous

0:28:26like local minimum right now with

0:28:28self-driving technology because like my

0:28:31parents bought a new car that has a lot

0:28:33of Drive assistance stuff in it so we

0:28:37can do things similar there too like

0:28:38what Tesla's will do where you can tell

0:28:41it to stay in a lane and it will

0:28:43maintain its position within that Lane

0:28:46on a highway even if it goes around the

0:28:47corner or it will be able to like you

0:28:50should if you're trying to minimize the

0:28:52amount of traffic like it'll keep an

0:28:54equal distance between the

0:28:55in front of it and behind it on the

0:28:57highway and it will do some limited

0:29:00accident avoidance stuff and it's very

0:29:03interesting to drive that and play

0:29:04around with that but I really do think

0:29:06it does put humans in the worst

0:29:10situation where the car is good enough

0:29:14on the highway that you feel like you

0:29:16don't need to pay any attention at all

0:29:18which must dramatically raise the

0:29:21possibility of an accident like I would

0:29:23love to see what the numbers are for

0:29:26what is the accident rate per 100,000

0:29:30miles when Lane maintenance is engaged

0:29:33on a highway and I wouldn't be the least

0:29:35bit surprised if like minor traffic

0:29:37accidents go up because the person feels

0:29:41like I don't have to really pay

0:29:42attention I can be doing something else

0:29:44like and I noticed that behavior in

0:29:46myself when I was driving that car it's

0:29:49like oh I'm on the highway I feel much

0:29:51safer looking at my phone in a way that

0:29:55if I was driving a car without it I feel

0:29:57like the phone doesn't exist for me if

0:29:58I'm driving a car without any assistance

0:30:00stuff and I found myself like oh maybe I

0:30:03can just look at that text message and

0:30:05see what it was about or I want to

0:30:06change what podcast I'm listening to I

0:30:08can flip over and do like a fiddly app

0:30:10switch on my phone right now because I

0:30:11the car's got it on the highway so I

0:30:13wouldn't be surprised if cars with that

0:30:15stuff are a little bit worse than cars

0:30:17without it that's like we need to push

0:30:18past here to get to exactly what you're

0:30:21talking about like I can sit in the back

0:30:23with a laptop and not have to care at

0:30:25all but if if you need to have Tetris on

0:30:28the dashboard to keep a person mentally

0:30:29engaged I think that's almost worse than

0:30:32not having that technology at all there

0:30:35was a plane crash caused by a pilot

0:30:37basically saying these things can land

0:30:39themselves I'll prove it and didn't look

0:30:41while landing and then crash the plane

0:30:43and killed a bunch of people pilot snow

0:30:44dares in the cockpit okay no we don't

0:30:48want that that's no good okay I've been

0:30:51going through the listener emails you

0:30:53know what people are doing what people

0:30:54have to say I know you want to have the

0:30:57people feel like you're listening to

0:30:59them you're looking through their

0:31:00feedback always listening that's a

0:31:03little much oh no no I knew when they

0:31:04want to be listened to and sometimes not

0:31:06been

0:31:07but go message for Brady at gmail the

0:31:10number four is where these things should

0:31:12go and I will have a look from time to

0:31:15time including an email from Ryan which

0:31:19was so interesting I sent him an email

0:31:21back asking for some more details and

0:31:23boy did he provide them he wrote a very

0:31:26lengthy reply thank you very much Ryan

0:31:28but the main reason he caught my

0:31:30attention was he has gotten himself a

0:31:33tattoo that I thought I should share

0:31:35with you ah he already had tattoos and

0:31:39this is like he's kind of added this as

0:31:41you'll see I think these tattoos are

0:31:43sort of to reflect his interests sorry I

0:31:46accidentally just sent them to my wife

0:31:49replied with oh my god then we send them

0:31:55to you I thought why is grey replying

0:31:57with oh my god and not just saying it

0:31:58out loud I've decided that we should do

0:32:01this podcast via texting Brady there we

0:32:03go now hopefully you've got them too oh

0:32:05my god we have a nail and gear tattoo

0:32:09that is connected to Oh God

0:32:14okay USB symbol at the other end and

0:32:17that's a representation of a certain

0:32:19kind of chemical connection right the

0:32:22hexagon with the three lines yeah I mean

0:32:23that card if I paint like a benzene ring

0:32:25but it can't be that cuz it's got a

0:32:27whole bunch of other stuff I don't know

0:32:28what that is but yes so three symbols

0:32:30connected to each other the nail and

0:32:33gear the benzene ring and the USB symbol

0:32:36it's like a chemical compound that we

0:32:38don't know what it is a USB symbol

0:32:40coming off and most recently he's added

0:32:42quite a bold nail and gear to his inner

0:32:45arm it looks very fresh that nail and

0:32:47cure yeah that picture you're looking at

0:32:49was very soon after it was done he says

0:32:51I really love the podcast I'm a huge fan

0:32:53of you and gray the H o podcast got me

0:32:55through some tough times and I want my

0:32:57tattoos to be a sort of time capsule of

0:32:59what was important to me at each stage

0:33:01in my life

0:33:02it took about half an hour to have done

0:33:03my friends like the tattoo although some

0:33:06of them got a bit confused when they

0:33:07asked me what the nailing gear was and I

0:33:09went on a five-minute tangent on the

0:33:11podcast about plane crashes and flags

0:33:14so this is a thing Brady you send me

0:33:16these I get nervous with the tattoos

0:33:18there is definitely a way in which I

0:33:21obviously think about tattoos in a

0:33:25different way than people who get

0:33:26tattoos think about tattoos I think that

0:33:28way too

0:33:29yeah yeah and even that comment from

0:33:32Ryan sums up what I've heard from a lot

0:33:36of people with tattoos where they want

0:33:37them as markers of a point in life and I

0:33:43can't think about tattoos that way I am

0:33:47tattoo las' as I'm sure will be a

0:33:50surprise to no one in the world it'll be

0:33:52a surprise to Ryan cuz he says in his

0:33:53longer version of the email that he

0:33:55feels like he's on the same wavelength

0:33:56as you not about tattoos they may be

0:33:59just about other things I feel like

0:34:01there's a lot of pressure all of a

0:34:02sudden right because when someone puts a

0:34:04tattoo on their body and they say oh I

0:34:08love the show right now what happens if

0:34:12you decide in the future that you're not

0:34:15such fans of us but nothing's ever gonna

0:34:17change the fact he was a fan for I know

0:34:19I know this is exactly it like this is

0:34:21what I try to understand is this idea of

0:34:24it is a marker of a time and so the

0:34:27future is not affecting the thing like

0:34:30tattoos I feel like are the opposite of

0:34:32my mental framework because people who

0:34:37get tattoos it does seem to be much more

0:34:40passed focus like it's a marker of a

0:34:42thing that happened and of course I feel

0:34:46like I want nothing to do with the past

0:34:49it doesn't exist anymore I have no

0:34:51interest in it it is gone

0:34:53and it is only about the future so when

0:34:55I look at tattoos I can't not always

0:34:57mentally frame them from the perspective

0:35:00of what will future me think about this

0:35:04tattoo which then always leads me to the

0:35:06conclusion of well I don't have any idea

0:35:09what that guy's going to think about

0:35:10this and then like well I can't make

0:35:13decisions for that guy in this way so

0:35:16I'm like I'm not going to get a tattoo

0:35:17but when I've spoken to people who have

0:35:21tattoos and I try to explain my thinking

0:35:22about them they look at me like I'm

0:35:24crazy

0:35:25and I clearly don't understand

0:35:27so yeah I mean it can go wrong I just

0:35:31sent you a tattoo that was doing the

0:35:32rounds quite recently that someone got a

0:35:34few days before all the news stories

0:35:36broke about Kevin Spacey and he got a

0:35:38tattoo of Kevin Spacey on his arm and

0:35:39then like you know all that stuff hit

0:35:42the fan it's a bit like what does that

0:35:43mean now that's the problem there's a

0:35:46reason that most countries also decide

0:35:48that they are only going to put dead

0:35:50people on their money is to avoid this

0:35:52sort of problem if you don't want to put

0:35:54a living person on your money and then

0:35:57that living person does something that

0:35:59you as a country don't like they start

0:36:02spilling the necessary lies of

0:36:04civilization and you're like oh no we

0:36:05just put them on the $2 bill I don't

0:36:07think Frank Underwood is a president

0:36:09he'd want to put on your American money

0:36:10anyway so I think we were gonna always

0:36:12gonna be safe on that one well Ryan's

0:36:14happy with her he thinks and looks good

0:36:16and I think it looks good it does look

0:36:18good it does look good and we appreciate

0:36:20it and we will try to keep the support

0:36:22cast that is worthy of your tattoo no

0:36:24sorry I shouldn't say that that's what

0:36:25you don't mean to say yes because all

0:36:27right because look we're not gonna be

0:36:28beholden to Ryan that's not what's going

0:36:30to happen right and we make no promises

0:36:32about the future quality of this show

0:36:34right

0:36:35Brady feels happy about it I feel

0:36:37slightly uncomfortable about it but I am

0:36:39glad that you are glad that's what

0:36:42matters you got to make decisions for

0:36:43you you don't make decisions for me oh

0:36:45so I had another photo from a viewer a

0:36:49kind of what you do while listening to

0:36:50hello internet moment that really

0:36:52tickled me before I Audrey that's just

0:36:57that's terrible she's getting worse

0:36:58great she wants to be on the podcast but

0:37:00he is on the podcast so here's one from

0:37:04Eden I am a student studying ecology I'm

0:37:08currently working on research about

0:37:09differences in animal community

0:37:11structure that result from external

0:37:13factors around streams one of the things

0:37:17this involves is collecting fish and

0:37:19measuring 24 different parts of the

0:37:21fish's body which is amazing to me

0:37:23because I didn't know fish had 24 parts

0:37:24of their body I tend to listen to

0:37:26podcasts while doing this as it is

0:37:28tedious work hello internet is of course

0:37:31the world's greatest podcast trademark

0:37:34because I like to listen to you and gray

0:37:36discuss those pesky flag flag ripples

0:37:38while I work I've attached

0:37:40lightly morbid proof of my claim keep up

0:37:43the work so here's the picture the fish

0:37:47studier

0:37:48eden has sent grouse I feel like I can

0:37:51smell all of those fish on that

0:37:53measuring tray through this photograph

0:37:55that has a very fishy photograph nicely

0:37:58arranged in a pattern we have some dead

0:38:01fish spelling out a chai and some tiny

0:38:06little fish around a border making the H

0:38:09I love go all on a medical examining

0:38:11tray I love that I love that there is a

0:38:13little tiny little baby sad anyone's

0:38:15make up the little dots of the border

0:38:17and the big fish make the lettuce I was

0:38:19originally going to say I don't believe

0:38:20this photograph because I don't see the

0:38:22mandatory podcast logo in the image and

0:38:25then it took me a second to resolve what

0:38:27I was actually looking at it like oh

0:38:28right the fish are the logo I don't know

0:38:30what kind of fish they are but they're

0:38:31freaky looking their eyes are scary I

0:38:33think that's how things look when

0:38:34they're dead Brady you know they passed

0:38:36on to the next realm and their eyes are

0:38:38all cloudy I've seen dead fish in the

0:38:40fish market and their eyes were as cold

0:38:42and dead as those ones I'm very happy

0:38:45that people listen to the show I'm happy

0:38:46that it gets them through tedious things

0:38:48in their life and I'm happy that

0:38:50somewhere in the world someone arranged

0:38:52a bunch of fish in a laboratory to spill

0:38:55out the HR logo sentences you'd never

0:38:57thought you'd say Brady when you bring

0:38:59stuff to me especially when you bring

0:39:01stuff from listeners I never know what's

0:39:03going to happen and I always feel

0:39:04slightly apprehensive no sigh well yeah

0:39:13I'm something big because there is a

0:39:17plague that is spreading through the

0:39:20world Brady and that plagues name is

0:39:23bitmoji yeah bit mochi yep and I know

0:39:29you know what bitmoji are huh

0:39:32because you created one as well recently

0:39:36hey I've had mine for a while I just

0:39:38never send it to you yeah as you know

0:39:41better yeah I think that's why bitmoji

0:39:45it's a company that's obviously decided

0:39:47the regular emoji not enough and so what

0:39:51they allow you to do is you can create

0:39:54little avatar of yourself and then this

0:39:59app will allow you to place that avatar

0:40:00in a bazillion situations so it was like

0:40:04you're creating a custom mochi for

0:40:07everything that's possible Under the Sun

0:40:09would you say that's a fair description

0:40:11of what the bitmoji are it's kind of

0:40:14fair the only thing that's not fair

0:40:15about it and I think this is a problem

0:40:17with the name maybe is it's not like a

0:40:19replacement for emojis to me it's just a

0:40:22different toy it's just a different fun

0:40:24things yeah they're using the the Apple

0:40:26sticker method they're not really emoji

0:40:28like bitmoji is a good name but it there

0:40:30are custom stickers but I think that

0:40:32when people use bitmoji they often start

0:40:35to displace the regular emoji so what

0:40:39you could do so people can better

0:40:40understand if grey said let's meet at 4

0:40:43o'clock and maybe I would send him an

0:40:46emoji of just a thumbs up instead I

0:40:48could send him this customized a little

0:40:49Brady that looks just like me riding a

0:40:52horse saying yes let's do it or

0:40:54something like that right these things

0:40:56are awful they're terrible I would love

0:40:59to say one of you I'm gonna design one

0:41:01to look like you just to see if I can do

0:41:03it

0:41:03do not Brady I am it no you know I won't

0:41:05put it out there because it'll look so

0:41:07much like II that that would be unfair

0:41:08for spoilers but I'm gonna make one just

0:41:10as my own little project great have you

0:41:15tried to make one look like you no of

0:41:17course I haven't tried to make one look

0:41:19like me I mean look here's this thing

0:41:20these bitmoji they're just like a

0:41:22nightmare from an episode of Black

0:41:24Mirror these are so close to the little

0:41:28avatars in 15 million merits which is

0:41:30still my favorite black mirror episode I

0:41:33swear to God when people send them to me

0:41:36they make me sad they really do like I

0:41:40was on a thread recently with a bunch of

0:41:42people and it's like oh this is supposed

0:41:44to be like a happy event and everybody

0:41:46is expressing their emotions through the

0:41:48bitmoji maybe there's something wrong

0:41:50with me but I feel like it sucks all of

0:41:55the genuine emotion out of the world

0:41:57like even emojis regular emojis do this

0:42:00to some acquitted out like there's a way

0:42:02that they kind of suck out emotion in

0:42:05your expression

0:42:07the bitmoji is like more and more people

0:42:08are using them and because they're

0:42:10customizable for every situation you see

0:42:13them all the time and I'd like they make

0:42:15me sad and seeing people use them to

0:42:19express thoughts a lot it's like I hate

0:42:21them I hate them so much

0:42:23and they're creepy they're so creepy and

0:42:27I had to endure this longest hour of my

0:42:31life when my wife finally got sucked up

0:42:34in the bitmoji thing and she was

0:42:36creating her own bitmoji avatar she's

0:42:38good at though she's good at it

0:42:40she kept asking me does this one look

0:42:44more like me whenever she would show me

0:42:49one it's like that doesn't look like you

0:42:51that looks like an uncanny valley

0:42:53nightmare version of you the thing I

0:42:56don't get as well is that like almost

0:42:58all the women I know they're bitmoji

0:43:00look exactly the same whereas the men I

0:43:02know like that kind of looks like them

0:43:04and I don't know why that is

0:43:05I can't figure out why it is but like I

0:43:07know three or four women who use bitmoji

0:43:09all look the same it could be any of

0:43:11them my wasn't happy with hers and I

0:43:14said what do you think of mine she's

0:43:16like yes yours looks just like you like

0:43:17angrily she said has more options or

0:43:21something but I don't know why this has

0:43:22happened but it feels like it has

0:43:23happened I'll tell you that bitmoji app

0:43:25is not short on options though my wife

0:43:28was doing this on the iPad so she could

0:43:30have like the full palette of everything

0:43:32that was possible

0:43:33I couldn't believe like the enormous

0:43:36number of options to be able to maintain

0:43:39different noises and oh 19 we would be

0:43:41blessed with but 19 noses to go through

0:43:44right there were hundreds of noses she's

0:43:47like is this one more like me or is this

0:43:48one more than me like I don't like any

0:43:49of them they all make me uncomfortable

0:43:50it's all securely in the uncanny valley

0:43:53please never send this to me ever it

0:43:55will make me sad I don't like it but

0:43:58they just keep spreading and people keep

0:43:59using them I want them to go away but

0:44:02they won't it's too much like it's too

0:44:04far I feel like the constraint of but

0:44:07like 200 regular emojis is almost good

0:44:10for people it's like it's too adaptable

0:44:13and then people use it for everything

0:44:15and it it makes me die a little inside

0:44:18every time I see one

0:44:20says the man who portrays himself

0:44:22publicly and videos with an animated

0:44:24stick figure and face and doing key

0:44:26things yeah in my youtube videos which

0:44:28are produced like I'm not when we text

0:44:30Brady I don't quickly in Inkscape whip

0:44:33together and exactly correct CGP grey to

0:44:36be a response to everything that you do

0:44:38know it's is totally different don't

0:44:40even try to compare it like those things

0:44:42are the same and also I don't think the

0:44:44stick figure has like the creepy creepy

0:44:46Dead Eye uncanny valley nests of these

0:44:49bitmoji 's don't you agree with me

0:44:51aren't they unsettling in the way that

0:44:53they look no I don't agree with you they

0:44:56don't unsettle me go to bitmoji comm and

0:44:59look upon the nightmare that stares back

0:45:01at you from the top of that page I'm

0:45:02gonna make a CGP grey one I tell you why

0:45:05I could see it to be a green one you

0:45:06actually physically cannot stop me it's

0:45:09impossible I can't believe your wife

0:45:11didn't make one of you and said looks

0:45:14like you because she respected my

0:45:15desires and she knows never to send me

0:45:19the bit mode I don't even like seeing

0:45:20her using the bitmoji talking with other

0:45:22people I just like I don't want to see

0:45:24them they're creepy and they're weird

0:45:26and my wife respects my desires unlike

0:45:29my podcast co-host he was probably right

0:45:31now giggling on his phone making a

0:45:34bitmoji of me I'm looking at the front

0:45:35page of the bitmoji website and there's

0:45:37a one that looks a bit like me maybe

0:45:38these are random I have no idea which

0:45:40one you think looks like you that really

0:45:42had someone the winking guy is that the

0:45:43one who you think looks like you to the

0:45:46right the far right

0:45:48no it doesn't look a bit like you and if

0:45:50it did look like you it would only look

0:45:52like you in a nightmare world where

0:45:54we're all trapped and emotionally

0:45:56separated from each other riding on

0:45:58bicycles all day long for pretend points

0:45:59that's the way it would look like you

0:46:01and that one on the left is the one that

0:46:02looks like all the people I know who use

0:46:04it generic brown hair go bitmoji thumbs

0:46:10down they're terrifying hello Internet

0:46:14if you are someone who bills by the hour

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0:48:03billable hours for your business let's

0:48:07go to a less controversial subject that

0:48:09won't upset you as much as bitmoji grade

0:48:11let's talk about not cease Brady this is

0:48:20an interesting new story that's been

0:48:22doing the rounds this caught your eye

0:48:23did no it did catch my eye I feel like

0:48:26bitmoji not see pugs things going on

0:48:31with Facebook things going on with

0:48:32YouTube I'm at a low point with my

0:48:34thoughts about people and the internet

0:48:36and what the internet does to people and

0:48:38vice versa it's all a terrible mess

0:48:41there has been a sort of conclusion to a

0:48:45story which to me is a terrifying story

0:48:47let me try to summarize it is a story

0:48:50about a Nazi pug as in a little dog hmm

0:48:56this guy up in Scotland count Deng Cola

0:49:00is his online name I don't know what his

0:49:02actual name is because count Acula is

0:49:04way easier to remember he made a video

0:49:06for youtube where he trained his

0:49:12girlfriend's pug to be excited and do a

0:49:15little Nazi salutes upon hearing

0:49:18particular phrases particular phrases

0:49:21you would expect Nazis to say so he put

0:49:25together this video and he sets it up as

0:49:30a joke like it's yeah there is this

0:49:33little bit of a story that people always

0:49:34say when they upload videos to YouTube

0:49:36with like oh I only expected a few of my

0:49:38friends to see a thing and then like it

0:49:39went viral and I had no idea that it

0:49:41would I'm not entirely sure that I

0:49:43believed that because that's like a

0:49:44standard story that everybody says like

0:49:46I kind of think that the guy did expect

0:49:48it was gonna be a bit of a viral video

0:49:49but he sets it up in the beginning that

0:49:52like he is playing a joke on his

0:49:56girlfriend who the pug belongs to yeah

0:49:58that the pug is super cute and his

0:50:00girlfriend is always talking about the

0:50:02pug and loves the pug so much that like

0:50:04she's on vacation or something and while

0:50:06she's gone he's gonna train the dog

0:50:08right on like zig Heil that's going to

0:50:11put up its little paw in a Nazi salute

0:50:13which you can almost say the dark humor

0:50:15of car he like that is this dog's the

0:50:17apple of her eye and he turns into this

0:50:18leg yeah it's pretty twisted but you sit

0:50:21there is that twisted brand of humor

0:50:23that exists yes there is a choice of

0:50:25brand of humor that exists and there's

0:50:26this weird thing where everybody feels

0:50:27like they need to like distance

0:50:29themselves a little bit from it like

0:50:30when I saw this video like it's funny

0:50:32like it's a funny joke and people have

0:50:35to pretend like it's not funny but guess

0:50:37what like part of humor is surprise and

0:50:39unexpected juxtapositions of things

0:50:42right and so like he films a shot where

0:50:44it's like pretending like the dog is

0:50:46watching a Nazi rally on TV and like

0:50:48that's a funny shot because of course

0:50:50like the pug doesn't know anything about

0:50:51what's going on like he's just setting

0:50:53up a frame yeah these are jokes and he

0:50:56sets it up as a joke but what has

0:50:58happened in the UK is that

0:51:01the UK has less freedom of speech laws

0:51:06than the United States does and there

0:51:10are more caveats and this guy counting

0:51:14Kela has been convicted guilty of I

0:51:20forget exactly what it is but it's like

0:51:21spreading obscene messages over the

0:51:24Internet he's been found guilty as of

0:51:26the time of recording the sentencing

0:51:29hasn't occurred the sentencing is going

0:51:30to happen in a couple of weeks but he is

0:51:33facing prison time over a viral video

0:51:37where he trains a dog to raise its paw

0:51:41on particular commands and I think this

0:51:44is just terrifying I agree it's

0:51:47terrifying and I wonder him what'd he

0:51:48say about it just to be clear though

0:51:49it's not the fact that dog raises poor

0:51:50that's got him in trouble it's like the

0:51:53phrase he's repeating isn't it yeah okay

0:51:54but so can I say the phrase are you

0:51:56afraid to say the phrase Brady I think

0:51:58he should not have said use that phrase

0:52:00so one of the phrases that he uses in

0:52:02the video is he says hi future gray here

0:52:07stepping in for a moment I wouldn't

0:52:09normally do this but it is a special

0:52:11occasion since we recorded this episode

0:52:13I looked into more of the specifics

0:52:15around this law and this ruling and haha

0:52:19turns out that the judge did know it was

0:52:22a joke but the way the obscenity law is

0:52:25written in the UK allows judges to

0:52:28ignore that factor it seems to allow

0:52:30judges to ignore all context around the

0:52:35literal words that are spoken in

0:52:37isolation from everything else which

0:52:40seems to make it impossible to talk

0:52:42about the bad ruling of an obscenity

0:52:45case without also exposing yourself to

0:52:48the very same obscenity law that you're

0:52:52talking about which makes this just a

0:52:54rather breathtaking catch-22 / Brazil

0:52:58level law so anyway here we are

0:53:01future gray is going back and cutting

0:53:04off past gray and thus this very

0:53:06conversation becomes an example of what

0:53:08we end up talking about later in the

0:53:10conversation in the video as he says

0:53:15and the Pug sits up and looks interested

0:53:18like he's obviously been giving the dog

0:53:19treats for that phrase right clearly

0:53:23this to me is the thing where there's

0:53:25something I find kind of awful in the

0:53:27world where everybody's like oh well I

0:53:32don't agree with the sentiment of that

0:53:35phrase it's like of course nobody agrees

0:53:37with the sentiment of that phrase who

0:53:38agrees with that nobody everybody feels

0:53:41like of course we want to distance

0:53:42ourselves from that but the actual

0:53:44question here is should you be able to

0:53:47put someone in prison for these actions

0:53:52prison where we physically remove

0:53:54someone from society for what they have

0:53:57done I think this is terrible I think

0:54:01this is really one of the worst things

0:54:04in UK law I have come across in the

0:54:08years that I have lived here because

0:54:11this is like such an incredible chilling

0:54:14effect that it comes down to like a

0:54:17judge thought that this is obscene and

0:54:20so finds him guilty of communicating

0:54:24obscenely over the Internet man if

0:54:26that's the case there are plenty of

0:54:29other UK youtubers who should like be in

0:54:32prison over similar kinds of things and

0:54:35everyone on Retta yeah like next time

0:54:37Mel Brooks lands in the UK straight to

0:54:41prison he's going to go because he made

0:54:43the producers an entire movie which is

0:54:46is nothing but Nazi jokes right all the

0:54:50way through I don't know I find this

0:54:52genuinely terrifying because it opens

0:54:55the door to this idea that if the legal

0:55:00system doesn't like what you say it can

0:55:04put you in prison and what does it mean

0:55:06to say that something's obscene this

0:55:07video where a dude is training a dog to

0:55:10do the zig heil like I don't think we

0:55:14should put people in prison for that

0:55:15whether or not you think it's a funny

0:55:17joke whether or not you think the guy

0:55:18should have done it whether or not we

0:55:21think like oh well I don't agree with

0:55:23the phrase that he uses in like a

0:55:25schoolmarm kind of way

0:55:27like I don't think that that is

0:55:29justification to put someone in prison

0:55:31like it has such an incredible chilling

0:55:34effect on speech I don't know I find it

0:55:38just deeply deeply upsetting that this

0:55:42has occurred as always with these things

0:55:45like you find yourself like ok I have to

0:55:47defend the guy who like made a video

0:55:48about a Nazi pug but it's never the

0:55:51thing like it's the system that it

0:55:53allows like it is a precedent of putting

0:55:57people in prison for saying things that

0:56:01is really dangerous I really don't like

0:56:03it and it makes me deeply uncomfortable

0:56:05with the way the laws are in the UK I

0:56:09agree with you you know whether you

0:56:12thought it was funny or not I liked the

0:56:13video was kind of funny

0:56:15yeah but you know some people have

0:56:17problems with that really

0:56:18confrontational humor like comedians

0:56:19like Frankie Boyle and people like that

0:56:21use and some people really enjoy it I

0:56:24think it's ridiculous I don't think he's

0:56:27committed a crime and it's an injustice

0:56:31there are two caveats though there are

0:56:34two things that I do feel more strongly

0:56:37about that I think we can be a bit lacks

0:56:39about on the internet that I do think

0:56:41should be punished one is if you are

0:56:43harassing an individual hmm and I think

0:56:46a lot of that happens on the Internet

0:56:48where people like say things and harass

0:56:52individuals and people that you know

0:56:53it's free speech I can say whatever I

0:56:54want on on the Internet and then I think

0:56:56if you're targeting a person I think

0:56:58that's unfair and I think we need to

0:57:00start getting stricter about that

0:57:01because I don't like seeing people being

0:57:03harassed like that and the other thing

0:57:06is if he had been inciting people with

0:57:10what he was doing if he was trying to

0:57:11incite you know anti-semitism or

0:57:14something with the video then I think

0:57:15maybe it needs to be looked at but he

0:57:17clearly wasn't doing that so this this

0:57:19does not apply to this person but I

0:57:21think if you were making you know

0:57:23Holocaust jokes with the intent of

0:57:25inciting racial hatred then that can

0:57:27start having like real-world

0:57:28repercussions and people can start

0:57:30getting hurt and when that happens I

0:57:32think you know we need to protect people

0:57:35in society I agree with you there but I

0:57:37I feel just extraordinarily cautious

0:57:39towards

0:57:40this idea individuals I'll agree like if

0:57:43you are harassing an individual online

0:57:47there's a place where there are some

0:57:49kind of repercussions there

0:57:50although again in our society when you

0:57:53talk about people who are public figures

0:57:55all of that just goes out the window and

0:57:57we're like oh no then it's fine right

0:57:59yeah you know like if a person's in

0:58:01public like that screw that like they

0:58:03don't deserve any protections which like

0:58:05maybe make sense and maybe doesn't but

0:58:07even then like starts to blur the

0:58:11boundaries of this like even that is not

0:58:13as crystal clear and I also agree with

0:58:18direct incitement to violence but I also

0:58:22find like in conversations with people

0:58:25that there's a thing that happens where

0:58:27people do a kind of mind-reading where

0:58:30they assume intentions of when people

0:58:34are saying things and it's like hmm my

0:58:37feeling is like a direct incitement to

0:58:39violence is a direct incitement to

0:58:43violence like it is someone calling like

0:58:45for an attack on a specific person or a

0:58:48specific group like I think what this

0:58:51guy got in trouble for is exactly that

0:58:55blurry boundary what you're saying where

0:58:56it's like oh when someone's making jokes

0:58:58and it's jokes that are to incite

0:58:59violence like that's kind of clearly

0:59:01what the judge was thinking in this case

0:59:03is like oh yeah this guy's making jokes

0:59:05but he's making jokes and this is like

0:59:07promoting hatred in the UK you can't pin

0:59:10that on me of course because I think

0:59:12that judgment is absolutely ridiculous

0:59:13oh no yeah no I agree with you I know

0:59:15that in the case of Kant Dacula

0:59:17that the judge decided it wasn't like a

0:59:19joke and how anyone could watch that and

0:59:21not think that was a joke is completely

0:59:23beyond me I wasn't saying that you were

0:59:24saying that I'm simply saying that so

0:59:27you read the section of the law that he

0:59:28gets convicted under and it's one of

0:59:30these things where it's like oh it's

0:59:31illegal to communicate like obscene

0:59:33language across the internet what does

0:59:35that mean and that's why I think like

0:59:37the standard has to be incredibly high

0:59:39like a person has made a statement that

0:59:42any child could agree is like a direct

0:59:47threat against a particular person and

0:59:50it's not like oh well this person is

0:59:54contributing to like a general overall

0:59:57feeling in society this way like through

0:59:59there