The Accidental Tech Podcast

269: Cooled by Jellyfish

 

  they're beings for harbor today but

  assuming that they are cuz this was kind

  of weirdly tied to the macro and this PR

  thing they should just make the kind of

  computer that has the most you can

  possibly have in it for this role like

  for like the Mac Pro it's a tower

  there's no limitations really on power

  consumption or price or size so give it

  the most you can get when you're making

  a laptop you want to have something

  that's portable presumably thin and

  light if you can get it there has a good

  battery life but within but other than

  that make it as versatile as possible

  this is an argument I always have with

  people who are like well you why do you

  need the SD card slot I never used mine

  so I'm glad they removed it that's these

  are versatile general purpose machines

  they should have commented as much as

  possible removing anything should not be

  considered a feature except wait that's

  the only thing that should be considered

  a feature of removing like everything

  else like these should accommodate as

  much as possible so to try to pick like

  a few certain narrow use cases or a few

  certain industries or types of quote Pro

  users which is meaningless to say like

  we're gonna optimize it or we're gonna

  design it to accommodate these things it

  makes like a like a spiky or peaky

  design instead of something that is more

  versatile that can accommodate a

  well-rounded group of things people

  might want to do with these computers

  the way to properly design computers is

  to cover as much as possible not as

  little as possible and I and this is

  that this has been a design conflict

  between me and Apple for a long time

  well for recent years especially I wish

  that the products we were getting out of

  Apple were just more general-purpose

  more versatile the 2013 Mac Pro went in

  the other direction and flopped

  miserably the 2013 Mac Pro is saying

  let's take all the different things

  people can do with the old Mac Pro

  towers so many different configurations

  possible for so many different kinds of

  uses and priorities and budgets and

  everything else and then they made this

  little trashcan thing that was optimized

  for like one use case and one type of

  customer they replace this in

  credible versatile broad-reaching

  product with a very narrow one and it

  flopped I can make many parallels to the

  laptop lineup right now I hope that they

  have learned some lessons from the 2013

  Mac Pro and from the negative reactions

  to 2016 MacBook Pro and I hope they're

  gonna start giving us more broad

  products the iMac Pro is a pretty good

  start in that direction I want to see

  more from the Mac Pro so it really

  depends on how they're using these

  people because they don't go into that

  much detail I think said I didn't tell

  you when they were formed they just like

  oh they're right down the hall and yes

  they're influencing the Mac Pro and so

  on so I can think of lots of good users

  these people this gets to the to my

  point earlier about it's apples job to

  make a good product the people they

  consult aren't making the product aren't

  dictating the product design like

  they're just one input and you have to

  know what what input do you actually

  want from these people you don't want

  them just to just go in there with a

  blank sheet of paper and say here pros

  what kind of computer would you like us

  to build and they all draw a picture of

  their home or car and you go great we'll

  build that and then you build it as

  terrible no one likes and you can't

  figure out what you did wrong like an

  apples not doing that I'm sure right

  right you but there is valuable feedback

  to be harvested from them to your point

  markup to make a general-purpose

  computer that that doesn't have doesn't

  have stupid limits right so to give to

  give some examples that might sound

  silly but I think is is hopefully

  exactly the kind of feedback they're

  getting from these people for the Video

  Editor examples I'm going to make up

  stuff by video wedding cuz I don't know

  anything about it right but say the

  video editors say that they they never

  put their computers on their desk they

  always have it like underneath there in

  like a some standard cabinet or Bay or

  something or whatever right and for it

  to be there the cords that connect from

  the monitor to the computer have to be

  some length and they could say the last

  monitor you made the cords are never

  long enough so we have to buy extenders

  and extenders are flaky or the you know

  the bus doesn't doesn't support cords of

  that length and it's kind of annoying

  and same deal with the input devices

  because of the distances if you just

  made all your cords like a foot longer

  there would be so much less frustrating

  that's valuable feedback because it's

  just saying look this is how people like

  to arrange their stuff it seems like a

  minor issue but if we don't do this if

  we make our codes like Accords the

  normal length it's gonna be annoying to

  these people in the same way the

  five-second long Final Cut Pro Windows

  it is annoying like they can get around

  it the product is not dead on arrival

  but it's a thing we wouldn't have

  thought of have we hadn't if we hadn't

  talked to real people who use them in a

  certain situation and it's a thing we

  can do it's not dictating the design of

  the computer just make the cords a

  little longer I have to think that they

  had a similar type of reason for the

  ridiculously long charger cord for the

  the Apple watch you know the core for

  that thing is like well sometimes the

  outlet is like behind the headboard of

  the bed in the middle and to reach the

  nightstand it has to be pretty darn long

  and yeah people can use an extension

  cord but that's kind of annoying so

  we're just gonna include a really long

  cord stuff like that is exactly the kind

  of hardware feedback that you can get

  without saying oh whatever hardware you

  need for your three specific specialties

  we're just going to build something that

  does that and then leave someone out in

  the cold who wants to do like MRI

  imaging it's like well I don't want

  about any of those people want I want

  something else entirely so they should

  be making a general-purpose flexible

  computer but if they can you know to the

  the goal of accommodating more use cases

  is you have to talk to all sorts of

  people these people want to for longer

  record these people don't want any

  lights in the front or you have to be

  able to disable the lights like stuff

  like that but you can just do that it

  when you look at the whole computer like

  why are the cords so long and who cares

  about turning off the lights I certainly

  don't care about turning off the lights

  and why does it have like slots in front

  end and back or why are they a why are

  they on the side instead of over here

  it's like you shrug your shoulders and

  say whatever it's fine for me but to

  make a machine that accommodates the

  most possible use cases that's

  worthwhile feedback on a hardware level

  you still you don't want it to be the

  Homer and have everything that everybody

  wants because it stops being coherent at

  some point but that kind of feedback in

  the feedback I mentioned before of like

  please don't make something that like

  is cooled by gel and magnetically

  levitates and you know is a bunch of

  boxes that snap together with magnets

  like we don't nobody wants that like

  nope I know you think it's cool but I

  guess you know but I mean say we as

  professionals talk to everybody talk to

  the video better talk to the audio

  editors talk to the scientific people

  nobody wants that and and the people who

  think it's cool they're not the ones

  buying matter exactly otherwise we're

  gonna complain the to expense and so so

  I think you know that feedback is is

  good to consent on the right path but

  after that it's just a matter of finding

  out all the little little things that

  are easy for Apple to do that can go a

  long way that I mean and that's perfect

  for Apple to brag about like in their

  presentation say and we've learned that

  you know again I'm making up all this

  stuff because I don't use them as

  contacts it was like and we learned that

  in certain studios people don't like to

  have lights so if you want to turn off

  all the lights on you on your thing you

  turn them off and the audience would

  applaud if they were if they also knew

  about this whole light thing right

  that's that's the type of feedback

  they're getting is that it for now III I

  don't know what to do

  don't worry there'll be more don't worry

  yeah they didn't actually release that

  much new information so all we can do is

  speculate oh and I guess related to this

  and how I got on this topic but I was

  wandering YouTube looking at fancy PC

  towers and there are some cool ones

  because I you know this is sort of I

  don't know like Mac Pro methadone right

  I'm just I can't I don't have any news

  about a Mac Pro so I can just go look at

  other things and say if the Mac Pro was

  like this it would be neat like I saw

  one recently that was a tower like a

  mini tower PC with no fans like

  passively cooled but with reasonably

  modern hardware in it like no fans that

  is a certain appeal doesn't it right and

  you know it obviously outperforms any

  Mac ever sold right because it's a PC

  you know with the real video card and

  everything it's not the fastest video

  card you can get an anna bc but it was

  fast

  I was like no fans really it wasn't even

  that big it didn't even get that hot I

  was like wow if Apple and this by the

  way Apple don't do this none of your

  pros are asking for No

  but if if this was like an avenue of

  weirdness that they made like instead of

  making the trashcan they instead decided

  you know Steve Jobs still odd this is

  that the thing I can imagine him getting

  it being his butt about and saying let's

  try and make it with no fans he'd like

  but Steve nobody wants that bit I said

  no fans like the original Macintosh by

  the way I had no fans in it right and

  like that's more difficult and it got a

  little bit too hot inside there and they

  eventually put fans in the max

  eventually they're like Steve we kind of

  really need to like fine all right fine

  put fan sent fine make the Rama seat

  really expandable to phyto kilobytes I'm

  you don't think you're ever gonna need

  it but anyway sometimes it's not great

  to listen to Steve Jobs but if they made

  a Mac prototype thing where the design

  goal was for no no no good reason to

  make it have no fans I think they could

  still make a good one it would be stupid

  it would be less flexible to having fans

  but it put it this way it would be

  better than trashcan you can make

  actually a pretty good conventional

  tower looking fanless thing that it has

  much more flexibility than the trashcan

  which is more of a condemnation that a

  trash can than endorsement for something

  the Apple could do it yeah but to do it

  it would have to be really big and

  really ugly things that Apple would

  never do not that big you should I'll

  send you a youtube link it's smaller

  than the regular is way smaller than my

  cheese grater it's pretty amazing the

  amazing things you can do we if you

  apply large amounts of metal in large

  amounts of surface area so tell me this

  is gonna come across really snarky and I

  don't mean it to but I do the same sort

  of thing that Marco does for a living

  and if you exclude gaming I do the same

  sort of thing that John does for a

  living I can do my job on a MacBook on a

  15-inch MacBook Pro on an iMac and I

  have done and will continue to do my job

  on any of those things there is no part

  of me that feels like I need or even

  really want a Mac Pro because presumably

  if the iMac Pro is something like five

  grand the Mac Pro is probably going to

  be one and a half that twice that three

  times that

  I I don't really understand why someone

  who writes code the kind of code that

  the three of us write anyway why does

  one need a MacPro

  unless you want it to last 40 years and

  for Marco you go through that you go

  through computers as quickly as you go

  through underwear so that's not a

  concern for you and I'll give you a

  cop-out which which I can't argue with

  and it's that I am the most impatient

  human alive and damn it I will wait as

  little time as possible for anything to

  happen on my computer and that is I

  don't personally think it's worth 5 or

  10 or whatever grand to to be that

  impatient but you know if you do that's

  fine that's that's your math that's your

  business that's fine but do you know

  what I mean like it seems kind of silly

  like why does any of the three of us

  need a MacPro

  why do you need a fancy BMW to drive

  yourself to work you could take a moped

  or you could walk walk would be a

  stretch moped would probably end up with

  me dead the right answer you're looking

  for the right answer you're looking for

  is with a Chevy Volt

  or just like the cheapest you know you

  could you could get by with like you

  know it's a little like you know the

  cheap cheap little two-door you know

  ikana box like why do you have a nice

  car why you know why you have a car that

  is fast as opposed to like you can still

  we're driving the same places right like

  this car analogy definitely has some

  legs looking at an article right now

  from 2013 that has the picture of a

  beautiful matte finish LFA here we go

  case you're back for a successor this is

  exactly the reason because we're car

  guys that's why that's why that though I

  don't buy that well I mean it isn't a

  perfect analogy because you know there

  are certain capabilities that you know

  higher-end computers offer you that you

  know that aren't necessarily always the

  case are always available on lower end

  ones yeah it's it's even more

  justifiable than right yeah exactly but

  it's you know it's it's almost kind of

  like saying like you know why like why

  get a pickup truck

  if you don't usually haul stuff you know

  but some people just like pickup trucks

  a lot and they're and that's you know

  they get pleasure out of that and

  like who cares right and maybe sometimes

  they do occasionally have to haul stuff

  and it wouldn't have fit in their Civic

  like buying more than you technically

  need is something to consider if you're

  you know outfitting a business with

  10000 pcs when you're an individual

  who's a computer enthusiast and you have

  a little bit of extra money and you can

  buy yourself a really nice computer

  there's nothing wrong with buying more

  computer than you need yes we do the

  same job in a lot of ways and by the way

  development is a very big and diverse

  field that many people have many

  different needs and as I was spouting

  off on Twitter earlier about I think the

  true developer computer is the MacBook

  Pro like the MacBook Pro is by far the

  more commonly used computer for

  developers than the Mac Pro the Mac Pro

  is much more commonly used by non

  developers for you know things like

  video farms and stuff like that like

  it's really not frequently used by

  software developers in my my knowledge

  and experience the MacBook Pro really is

  is that but you know I could do my job

  on a map a pro I have done my job on a

  MacBook Pro I spent years do my job

  groans it's fine I'm happier and I think

  I'm more productive and at least certain

  things are much faster using my cool new

  iMac pro before this I use an iMac which

  is basically a MacBook Pro that's

  stationary that was also really great

  for years and that was good enough but I

  can get a better one and I really you

  know in the same way that you really

  value having a nice fast car I really

  get a lot of pleasure out of having a

  nice fast Mac to do my work on we don't

  need any of these things in the in most

  senses we get them because you know some

  people really do need the extra

  horsepower we're like you know if I was

  actually encoding video all day and my

  encodes could be like four times faster

  than they could on a MacBook Pro or on

  an iMac I'm burgler iMac then yeah I

  think I could justifiably say you know

  this is worth it to my job because it's

  it's saving a vast amount of time

  throughout the day for me the game isn't

  that big between this and something a

  little more pedestrian but there is

  still a gain like every time I build and

  run

  in Xcode like I'm doing this a lot

  throughout the day and it is faster on

  this than it was on my old iMac not by

  hours faster it's not our faster but

  it's seconds faster and I do that I do

  it a lot so it's better this this

  computer is able to do things basically

  anything I ask it to do in near silence

  I have yet to hear the fan spin up I was

  maxing out all ten cores the other day

  importing a big lightroom import and I

  didn't hear the fans at all the entire

  time I've encoded video I have encoded

  4k video didn't hear the fans at all

  it's wonderful and so none of us Orwell

  few of us actually quote need these

  machines but that's not to say this on a

  market for them just like nobody needs a

  car that can go zero to 60 in 2.5

  seconds but there's a whole lot of

  people who would sure like one I were

  going further to further away from

  trying to justify it although there are

  definitely justifications basically the

  same justification says anybody who uses

  a tool to do a job like Parker was

  saying you could edit video on a MacBook

  Air but you're gonna be miserable

  compared to if you had a bigger faster

  computer if you do it for the living so

  I mean anytime you do anything for a

  living you want like the best tools for

  it even if it's not a straight time as

  money thing so there is that

  justification but I think the more

  important thing in that the pitch I was

  trying to make in this old article from

  before they introduced the trash can was

  that it's important to the company to to

  reach for this particular star uh you

  know for to try to make the biggest best

  fastest most powerful whatever they're

  doing that with the phone every every

  year they try to make the best most

  powerful phone like the iPhone 10 like

  it's not kind of like we think this is a

  pretty good phone like it's kind of fast

  like it's the best fastest coolest thing

  they know how to make with all the best

  specs it's better than everything you

  know they're they're always reaching for

  the stars there and that's that's a good

  Sumer product but for the pro stuff it's

  you know the hella car analogy right

  you're not gonna make a lot of money

  from it you're not gonna sell a lot of

  them most people don't need one nobody

  needs one but having it exists not even

  buying it like please I'm I'm in

  karzai by honda chords right but just

  people knowing that it exists that that

  these cars are out there and that this

  is the company that makes them raises

  the prestige of that company and is

  interest interesting from a sort of

  human achievement perspective yes it's

  not the same as the space race but it's

  it's similar like it you did someone is

  out that you know Ferraris out there

  making Ferraris even if I never buy one

  certainly I don't need one and even if I

  never buy one I you know spend hours

  reading about them in magazines and

  looking at them and get excited when I

  see one and it changes my opinion of

  what cars can be and you know like it

  gives me a different view of Ferrari

  than if they just made SUVs and Apple

  I think should always continue to push

  up against this envelope regardless how

  many people buy it just because for the

  same reason I use the Viper and then in

  the thing because it was a direct quote

  from the magazine I've been reading

  where that you know the car guys wanted

  to make the Viper because it's it's cool

  essentially and they're into cars and

  the people who deal with the money like

  why would you ever make that it's a

  terrible idea it's not gonna make you

  money and it's stupid and no one's gonna

  buy one but that's that's bad decision

  making so I got your question Casey was

  why do you want to get a MacPro

  but I would take it even farther back

  and say why do you care if a MacPro

  exists if you're not gonna buy one and I

  do

  I cared that for our existing they'll

  never going to get one and I care the

  Mac Pro exists even if I wasn't gonna

  buy one but I totally am probably and

  I want Apple to be reaching for the

  stars pushing the limits you know going

  farther and faster than they've ever

  gone before and I want them to keep

  pushing that because I think that an

  apple that does that is an apple that

  makes better products overall yeah I

  don't debate that Apple needs to reach

  for this it's just again like you

  neither of you has to answer to me and

  you know I'm not the boss of you and you

  can do it just because damn it I want to

  and that's a perfectly acceptable reason

  but I look at my what is it like two

  year old iMac right now and when I write

  code on this thing like

  the screen is beautiful with the

  exception a little bit of burnin the

  screen is beautiful it still two years

  on feels crazy fast like I don't feel

  like I'm waiting for more than a moment

  for anything when it comes to

  development not obviously if I'm doing

  transcodes or something like that that's

  a different discussion yeah Asian aliy

  the fans spin up but I'm I'm okay with

  that I know that makes me a monster but

  I'm okay with hearing a fan from time to

  time and I look at the iMac Pro and then

  I look at the Mac Pro and I feel like

  there are on paper anyway deeply

  diminishing returns for both I item to

  me it's like yeah okay if you're gonna

  use the car analogy like yes I spent a

  bit more to have a nicer experience when

  I Drive two miles to and from work each

  day a hundred percent and on the surface

  it's not really that different from what

  put either you guys are talking about

  but I feel like what work but a more apt

  analogy is like well why did you get the

  regular Ferrari instead of the hyper

  lightweight Ferrari

  you know like or it's such diminishing

  returns like why even bother or or maybe

  a more apt analogy would be you know a

  Hellcat will get you somewhere just as

  quick as a Ferrari will as long as there

  are no turns as long as there are no

  turns but I mean I guess it's analogies

  falling apart as well it's just it seems

  like it's it's way more money to get you

  not that much more speed that's true of

  you BMW - over my court over your record

  it's considerably more speed over

  brand-new Accord no it's not not

  proportional to the money that's always

  it's always diminishing returns and you

  get over the top it's always by the way

  if you're doing parallel tasks it

  actually is that much more speed yeah

  don't go like the practical

  justifications I want this whole I think

  a totally an impractical justification

  alone it would be worth it but there are

  in fact actual practical justification

  that's worth it just it's it's again

  like you don't have to answer me I'll

  let it go it's just it's really hard for

  me to understand why any human who lives

  in Xcode needs a MacPro like I can see

  final cut I could see Lightroom remark

  oh you brought up Lightroom earlier I

  can make I can make a pretty good

  argument that light

  could justify MacPro but for someone who

  lives and breathes Xcode or even even

  more like you know 90 year old

  programming languages like Perl I don't

  get why one would want a Mac Pro and and

  I'll let it go it's just it's don't um

  and Swift yeah you should be dying for a

  Mac Pro it's not that bad it's not the

  gaming angle that you mentioned before

  though actually is one of the more

  irrelevant

  pratik ones because if you reel a lot of

  it if you really want a Mac like the

  your they force you to buy this gigantic

  be incredibly get the the good cheap you

  know I mean I Pro is a good deep you but

  presumably this one will have a better

  one and so if you really are stuck on a

  Mac and you really want to play games on

  it which you know people said why would

  you in the other one I just get a gaming

  PC blah blah like it's you know it's we

  are we are oddballs to understand that

  we have to explain the practical reasons

  why people want them like that's what

  all those pros are doing like if you do

  it for a living

  and it will make whatever you're doing

  twice as fast or twice as reliable at

  the same speed then that's the that's

  the reason to get them and it's the

  reason professionals by a professional

  stuff period like snap-on tools why do

  they cost so much more than craftsmen

  are they that much better no they're not

  that much better but they're better and

  if you all you do all day is turn a

  wrench get a good one well but on top of

  that they also had a ridiculous warranty

  do they not craftsmen used to be

  guaranteed for life guarantee forever

  before like Sears went into business or

  whatever that's true I don't I'll let it

  go but it's it's it's it's an odd thing

  to me again I am a hundred and fifty

  percent on board with Apple pursuing

  this I completely agree with you and

  again gaming is a pretty good reason

  because I friggin want to leave me alone

  Casey is a good reason which is what I'm

  mostly hearing Lightroom is good reason

  but if you're just living in Xcode or

  terminal or Visual Studio code or

  what-have-you it seems a little weird

  well I mean this is my home computer

  though I'm not getting it for work you

  realize like I would never be able to

  just try to work why they should give me

  a Mac Pro I can't even justify work for

  them to get me an iMac for crying out

  loud it's gonna be stupid laptop right

  like it's a hobby computer like it's the

  same you know if you if you had a taxi

  business you're like how can you justify

  a BMW if your taxes like don't it's

  gonna break down and cost you too much

  money like

  for your taxi but for your home car I'm

  gonna BMW because I like cars we are

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  rethink what your money can do let's do

  some ask ATP we have a twofer with

  regard to evil addicting juice bosey

  Moncrief writes hey Marco what's your

  go-to hand grinder for those of us who

  don't want your fancy powered instant

  coffee tubes for travel hand grinding

  hmm I've had to both hereo first like

  the skinny one I forget what it's called

  and then I later got the I'm kind of

  stubby or one which is called the

  Skerton I can

  recommend either of them really if you

  if you insist on hand grinding coffee

  the hereos curtain is the much better

  one like the little skinnier one it's it

  was useless it was very hard to get

  anything out of it thus curtain is

  bulkier but substantially faster the

  problem is there's a reason why coffee

  grinders are all electric because you

  need to do a lot of hand cranking to

  really get a meaningful amount of coffee

  especially if you're doing something

  that needs a finer grind like a narrow

  press this is one of the many reasons

  why I decided after only like one or two

  tries that travel coffee setups are not

  for me so the only thing I can say is

  please try not to do this at all but if

  you're going to do it

  the hereo Skerton is the one to get and

  additionally dog oh boy II would like to

  know what is your coffee setup hike I

  just found out that you like coffee how

  do you just find out that Marco likes

  coffee

  his blood is coffee that's right anyway

  I just found out you like coffee would

  like to know more about your setup yeah

  alright so basically I'm a crazy coffee

  enthusiast if you think I care a lot

  about macbook keyboards you haven't seen

  me try to make or brew coffee I'm a home

  roaster i roast my own coffee on a hot

  top roaster I get the unroasted beans

  from sweet Maria's I tend to get kenya

  beans the vast majority is my favorite

  being sweet Maria's is the best resource

  I've ever seen

  for not only getting unroasted beans but

  getting roosters and learning how to use

  them so I suggest sweet Maria's calm

  they've been doing this for a very long

  time and they've been wonderful and if

  you're going to start out on a coffee

  roaster you can start with the cheap air

  popper or a the Dame or 1300 I think our

  1,600 yeah that's that's the one I had

  first it's decent the hot top is about

  three times the price but is three times

  better so it's up to you how you how you

  want to deal with that but coffee home

  roasting is something that nobody should

  really do but I do it because I care a

  lot about things that people don't care

  and I'm very happy with that and I'm

  content with that so that being said

  when I'm out I mentioned last time I've

  been recently trying these these cool

  new sudden coffee instant coffee things

  like when I'm traveling or on an

  airplane or something

  it's Southern Coffee is surprisingly

  good I also in the meantime have been

  recommended to other ones

  voilá spelled like viola you-know-who

  wallah

  coffee and Swift cup coffee both of

  which are also like kind of pricey

  high-end instant coffee packets both of

  them are good Swift cup I think might be

  my favorite of all three so far I have

  to try a little bit more of it but I'm

  very impressed by the Swift cup flavor

  but southern coffee is actually more

  practical because you can use the tube

  as a stirrer which is nice anyway at

  home when I'm using my home roasted

  beans I grind them with a Bharat's of

  virtuoso and I put them in a narrow

  press and I use a fairly imprecise

  inverted Aeropress method and I use a

  electric kettle to pour hot water into

  it that's about it that's my coffee

  setup I pour I press the coffee into a

  mug and then I drink it usually I'm

  making coffee for me and TIFF at the

  same time so I use two air presses in

  parallel one in each hand and it's

  totally fine I've tried pretty much

  every way I know of to brew coffee I had

  way I've tried French presses drip pots

  good drip hot bad drip pots butters

  right I have I have tried the butter

  that's terrible I have tried the what's

  the big expensive oh the clover machine

  I've tried the clover machine both at a

  real coffee shop and then later at

  Starbucks I've tried lots of different

  brew I've tried a vacuum brewer I have

  tried so many different ways to brew

  coffee and what it comes down to is the

  best way to brew one cup of coffee or

  two if you're going to operate two in

  parallel is that is the Aeropress the

  best way to prove more than that is the

  Hario v60 pour over cone into whatever

  vessel you feel like that's it all right

  Bryce minty would like to know you know

  I'm finally getting around to replacing

  that awful file set-top box at my house

  which TiVo are you using John and not

  sure if the $750 for a new bolt and

  lifetime service is really worth it

  kind of like apples laptops TiVo line is

  not in a great place right now because

  all of their newest machines are using

  this incredibly stupid bent box design

  like it looks like a regular set-top box

  would imagine you bent it like and not

  even in the middle so it makes this kind

  of like weird inverted V shape the bend

  is stupid and you can't stack stuff on

  half of it but worse than the bend much

  worse is the fact that the thing is very

  small and so they have a you know low

  diameter fan and if it has to spin very

  fast and makes a very annoying

  high-pitched noise so all of the bent

  box TiVo's are noisier than the much

  larger flat box TiVo's that they

  replaced which is a shame because the

  top end TiVo the top end bent box TiVo I

  have one that well actually not

  toughened that anymore now I have that

  Fox thing but I think it's basically

  same sort of voice control they are

  otherwise very good they are fast

  they're small the interface has not been

  entirely ruined by this new interface

  that they're trying to roll out I still

  haven't gotten the new interface but it

  looks pretty gross but the old one is

  good like it is a good product it is a

  good TiVo except for the fact that the

  box has been and it makes awesome noise

  if you can find a Romeo Pro which I also

  have one of it is not quite as fancy as

  the latest bent box ones but it's still

  plenty fast it is way bigger

  ridiculously bigger which is kind of a

  shame but it is quieter so there is no

  perfect TiVo to get I would say that if

  you have like an entertainment center or

  some place where you're not going to

  hear the fan or you don't care about fan

  noises or whatever then the stupid vent

  box top-of-the-line TiVo's are still

  pretty good t-bo's but if you care about

  the noise or want to save some money

  look into a romeo pro if you can find

  one because they are much more

  conventional and straightforward and

  flat and slightly quieter excellent

  and finally kg writes what kind of

  clipboard management apps are you using

  if any on your Mac

  I use Alfred as my both app launcher as

  well as you know kind of do everything

  machine and it includes some very basic

  clipboard like history and management

  and stuff like that that has been great

  it is exactly what I want and nothing

  more and that that has worked really

  well for me I did beta test pastebot

  which is by the same folks that do tweet

  BOTS and net bot r.i.p and that was

  really good but more powerful than what

  I personally wanted it can do things

  like you know filter or like you know

  modify what you've copied and and maybe

  if I spent the time I would end up

  deciding oh I actually really do like

  this but for my needs it was it was

  overkill for what I'm looking for from

  it Marco do you have any sort of

  clipboard management setup yeah I I

  actually really really love clipboard

  management like it I came fairly late to

  it like I think I was like most of the

  way through my job at tumblr before I

  started using a clipboard manager and I

  wish I had done it earlier once I got

  into it because you know programming and

  just general computer use there is a lot

  of opportunities to like stack up a

  couple things in the clipboard then

  paste them down somewhere like it's the

  kind of thing like having multiple

  clipboards or multiple levels to a

  stacked clipboard is really really nice

  in so many types of work on computers

  and it's one of the biggest things that

  I think it's kind of a shame that iOS

  not only doesn't have it but probably

  never will have it when you're working

  on iOS one of the biggest things I miss

  but I've tried a lot of them I think

  I've tried almost all of them started

  out on one called jump cut which was

  like just a clipboard manager it's open

  it was open source back forever ago I

  don't know where it is now and then I

  later moved on to launch bar and you

  know I've also you know back in the day

  I used Quicksilver as my like fast

  launcher than for awhile I just did

  spotlight as the launcher as they as an

  almost fast launcher and then launch bar

  kind of combines everything into one app

  for me it is a super fast launcher and

  also my favorite clipboard manager and I

  know like you know Alfred and there's a

  bunch of other ones out there now

  I'm sure they're all great just launch

  bar happens to be the one that meshed

  best with me and the way I like it to

  work and the way I like it to look and

  behave and everything else so I use

  launch bar for that and and kind of like

  what you said Casey I'm I'm a heavy but

  shallow user of it like yeah yeah yeah I

  use it constantly very I heavily use I

  use the crap out of it but I only scrape

  the surface of the available features I

  literally only use it to like launch

  apps find emoji to paste into things

  which is a fairly recent thing and use

  multiple clipboards that's it I don't do

  anything where you can like you know hit

  a different key and send it to another

  workflow or sent it to a script or

  capitalize it in this way like I don't

  do any of that it's only an app launcher

  and I click on a clipboard manager for

  me and that's how it's whatever it cost

  it's like 40 or 50 bucks whatever it

  cost it's totally worth it just for that

  because it is such an incredible part of

  my workflow doing pretty much everything

  because that clipboard manager it's so

  good that being said if you don't want

  to spend that much there are

  alternatives as I as you know as both of

  us said but I highly suggest whatever a

  clipboard manager you end up with if you

  don't use one try one if you do anything

  on a Mac ever try a clipboard manager

  because once you get into the habit it's

  like you know so I mean so much of

  modern work is copying and pasting stuff

  like from one place to another and it's

  so nice to people to like copy three

  things and then go to a go to the other

  app and paste one paste to paste three

  like to have tinnitus to go back and

  forth so much it's it's such a

  revolution and how you how you use your

  clipboard you will wonder how anything

  ever doesn't use like how anyone gets

  around not using a clipboard it's almost

  as big of a change as having a clipboard

  versus not having a clipboard like at

  the very first time you were like when

  you were we were all learning how to use

  computers that first time you discovered

  the clipboard and that you could copy

  and paste things like it like it's

  almost that big of a deal

  once you can have like a little history

  or a stack John so I use jump cut for

  years because I just wanted basic

  functionality and

  I use pay spot and I don't use much of

  the fancy functionality but it like jump

  cut was fine but pay spot it just has a

  little bit more polish you know like all

  the all the Bott things is just nicer so

  I'm gladly paid for it to have a Polish

  and hopefully more well supported think

  of this Marco covered most of the

  benefits of of a clipboard manager let

  me tell you about a couple of the

  dangers one danger as Marco pointed out

  is that it will change your mental model

  of how computers work and I've done this

  a couple of times where I've been on

  someone else's computer even even just

  like I'm on my wife's computer and one

  of my kids accounts where they don't run

  a clipboard manager like it's the same

  computer but they don't have been don't

  run pay spot or whatever and I will be

  doing stuff in the computer and I will

  not realize way too late that I just

  thought I was queuing up three things in

  the clipboard and in reality I was just

  overriding and the all the things except

  for the most recent one don't exist

  anywhere else like I will I will like

  copy something out of a document close

  the document without saving it go to

  another document copy something out

  close without saving it and like and

  then you know copy another thing and

  then go to the destination expecting to

  paste in all three of those things and

  guess what two of them are gone like

  gone gone like as in data loss gone as

  in I didn't write them down anywhere and

  they're gone why because my mental model

  is that copy and paste is like a cue and

  it's not it's just one place and that

  makes me sad the other thing is some of

  these clipboard managers have a way to

  synchronize your clippings either like

  through iCloud or across other machines

  or whatever and applications also have a

  way to blacklist something and those two

  features should make a tickle in your

  mind because one of the things that I

  think they put in a blacklist by default

  is like keychain access or one password

  yeah if you copy and paste the password

  and have any kind of cloud

  synchronization on and don't have that

  app blacklisted guess what you just

  spread your unencrypted password to our

  possibly encrypted either way you just

  spread your password through cloud

  storage and possibly to other computers

  that you may or may not control so be

  careful with your clipboard manager they

  the good ones have tools for you to not

  have that happen you have to use those

  tools which is kind of the reason I can

  imagine why Apple doesn't build this in

  right like what does an apple just build

  in multiple clipboards they put a clock

  in the menu bar after all that's a

  pretty old reference there but they're

  done so many things since then there are

  dangerous to this and I'm not sure which

  is the worse the these the possible

  security danger or the fact that you get

  so used to it that trying to use a

  computer without it the computer feels

  broken yeah those are bad reasons I'm

  not saying that's the reason you

  shouldn't use it like I will I will use

  it forever like I have to use it like I

  can't go back yeah right exactly but but

  just keep in mind that once you get on

  board this train which you should get on

  board and it's good keep those other

  things in mind when you're using a

  foreign computer keep in mind that the

  clipboard is no longer Q and just

  disable the synchronization thing if you

  don't wanna use it like that's the

  easiest solution to that like do you

  really care that your clipboard is

  synchronized across whatever if you

  don't just turn that stuff off I have

  never used any kind of syncing like that

  I like that that to me sounds like a

  recipe for pain with iOS in the Mac now

  right yeah and it works like 70 percent

  of the time yeah I know actually works

  at your past one won't actually sync

  across or you hit paste on the other

  device and it just blocks for like eight

  seconds well it tries to figure out what

  the heck it should be pasting delightful

  huh between that and drag-and-drop it's

  like man everything on iOS has made

  slower by progress yeah oh no think the

  configure is that most of these

  clipboard history apps have a way for

  you to limit the size of things if you

  like me occasionally find yourself

  copying and pasting 500 megabytes of

  text from your awesome text editor you

  don't really don't want your clipboard

  manager to be like oh let me hold on to

  that 500 Meg's for you

  that's so that most don't have a

  threshold to say look if it's bigger

  than 50 Meg's just let that one just let

  that one slide I'm not gonna be I don't

  want to paste that an hour from now

  alright thanks to our sponsors this week

  betterment hellofresh

  and molecule and we'll see you next week

  now the show is over they didn't even

  mean to begin as it was accidental oh it

  was accidental

  johnny research Margo and Casey wouldn't

  let him because it was accidental he was

  accidental you can find the CAS pyl is

  Esther that's Casey Liz and a RC o AR m

  auntie Marco Arment

  SI r AC Syracuse

  I was like no but more things I've been

  looking at in YouTube I'm looking at

  YouTube videos I had I find some video

  that was talking about straight cut

  gears and race transmissions and why

  they're better I was so frustrated at

  the video not explaining to me why the

  adequately explained to me why they're

  better that I was just like googling for

  like race transmission straight cut

  gears on you to I'm like what does

  YouTube think of what I ended up here

  but then I ended up in on this rat hole

  of like explainer Technology explainer

  videos and I found a lot of them very

  frustrating like popular videos that are

  very poor quality like you you start

  going into the the dark corner of

  YouTube is the completely incorrect

  bogus how planes fly videos right it's

  kind of like I feel like that you know

  the the conspiracy theories about how

  the earth is flat and stuff and like

  kids are finding them like kids don't

  watch this video that's not how planes

  fly and there are videos out there

  explaining why all the other videos

  telling you how planes fly are wrong but

  I don't they're not as high in the

  search results as the bogus one it's

  very upsetting anyway but that's like

  both a fun corner of YouTube technology

  explainer videos but also just filled

  with garbage like really bad low res

  computer animations that they probably

  didn't make with like a computer voice

  talking over it like like the old fred

  voice not like siri but like the old

  fred voice talking over it like they

  couldn't even get a human i guess these

  might be machine generated i don't know

  or from like yeah i I don't understand

  it I don't understand who's watching

  them but they they seem to have like

  they come up high in the search results

  I wish I it was like it's like both them

  down and say hide this and never let

  another human see it because it's bad

  but they're good wants to remember the

  classic good one is like you've I think

  we've all seen this that one from the

  50s or 60s explaining how like a

  transmission works or that was I forget

  was explained it was like from GM or

  something and it's like that black and

  white it's kind of like filmstrip from

  school and in the 60s but it was the

  first thing that I ever saw that

  explained to me how

  like a traditional gear differential

  works despite having like assembled and

  used many of them on a remote-control

  cars it never quite clicks in my brains

  like yeah but how did this work and this

  one did it from like first principles

  with like to tinker toys I'm like oh now

  I get it and it finally all came

  together like this is our every

  engineering explainer but I gotta go

  find that one

  find that one

  you just starting him out Casey huh

  carries he's rebooting he said it

  momentarily I mean that was a few

  minutes ago

  you know I mixed a reboot it takes a

  while not that long

  not on my shiny new macro mm-hmm all

  right hello

  sorry rebooting your slow computer I'm

  gonna be like that it's faster than

  John's that's probably true at the

  reboot already running my reboot is for

  system updates I didn't have to I just

  had this sneaking suspicion that I

  needed to the king I have empathy for

  the Machine John you've got that reboot

  feeling my god

  that's a I was Top Gun wasn't it

  that's not where that song is from but

  yes that movie did feature that song

  take me home or lose me forever John

  siracusa you know uh fun fact

  deysa thunder was the better movie

  between the two of them because of the

  same movie I'm pretty sure they're not

  Days of Thunder was the better one why

  why do you think that because well a

  everyone is going to tell me I'm wrong

  and they're probably right but I don't

  care because planes are not as fun as

  cars what I figured you know you had

  some no no reasonable foundation for

  your opinion but no no that's not now

  let's talk about vinyl after this

  high-definition vinyl yes I love I love

  that story so much like they're like if

  only there were some other you know

  round music medium that was longer than

  a vinyl record and could allow for more

  precise audio right yeah so I read it I

  thought it was gonna be like a high

  definition vinyl but instead it seemed

  like it was just a way to more precisely

  make vinyl but everything else about it

  was the same like it wasn't higher

  definition it was like if we can really

  carefully carve grooves in vinyl like

  more carefully than usual it's like

  alright I guess I mean sure like it's

  not okay

  I don't understand like I thought I was

  gonna be like a higher density or I was

  gonna do like it was gonna I was kind of

  imagining that it would make little pits

  for like ones and zeros like it would be

  like final but CDs on vinyl you know I

  mean there's lots of things you could do

  to make high to actual high definition

  vinyl but instead they're just more

  careful

  carving grooves in vinyl yeah I've got

  I've got I've been sent that a couple

  times already I guess things like you

  know as somebody who has now seen you

  know all the sides of this like the

  appeal of vinyl has nothing to do with

  its sound quality or fidelity or dynamic

  range or any the things they're

  proposing to to increase like it if you

  want those things you shouldn't be using

  vinyl at all we're using digital sources

  this is this is just crazy to me anyway

  we should start with follow up iOS

  eleven point three has a new battery

  throttling notification which we were

  made aware of sometime in the last week

  Stephen Devine was the first that I

  noticed to send us an image it reads as

  follows this iPhone has experienced an

  unexpected shutdown because the battery

  was unable to deliver the necessary peak

  power performance management has been

  applied to help prevent this from

  happening again like a passive voice

  performance management has been applied

  who applied it what happened experienced

  shutdown it experienced it well that is

  kind of true we did yeah the phone did

  experience didn't blame you

  there's no actor in that situation the

  phone did experience something you shut

  down your iPhone because of a problem

  no I this I you know I'm very happy that

  they are notifying the user when battery

  throttling happens that in a big picture

  wise that's good they they should have

  been doing this all along and that would

  have made the problem a lot less severe

  I don't think the wording they've chosen

  here is particularly helpful or even

  honest you know performance management

  has been applied I don't think a lot of

  people are going to correctly know that

  that means your phone will now be slowed

  down like that that's a pretty big

  difference then performance management

  has been applied that is a like you know

  dark pattern euphemism that is

  intentionally written to mask the truth

  to mate to confuse and kind of hide

  what's actually going on in this huge

  paragraph that they know most people are

  not going to read and if they do you

  read it they're good they're not really

  going to understand what it's really

  doing I wish that we've been a little

  more clear in the language but at least

  they're under firing people it I just

  wish they around if I

  in a more honest way they don't offer

  any remedies like the dialogue should

  say okay like here's what happened and

  what is there anything I can do about it

  actually in this case there is the way

  you can do about is get a new battery

  for your phone right all right offer

  something like it's not even as far as I

  can tell it's not even a place like a

  you know tap here for more information

  like if a user is interested enough in

  this very confusing vague goodbye he

  could mean a lot of different things and

  you I want to know more Gaz it sounds

  like something bad might have happened

  to my phone presumably they knew

  something bad happened to the phones

  they were using it two seconds ago and

  then the screen went black and had to

  wait for it to reboot right so if that

  happened to me and then my phone came

  back and it said this I would be like

  what what can I do about that

  and Apple has answers there are easy

  answers hey go get a new battery but

  they don't offer that in this dialogue

  anyway yeah they could be a little more

  video they can say like your battery

  cannot can no longer run the phone at

  full speed like that it is more direct

  that is telling them like your phone

  won't be slow it's the batteries fault

  it's something that you can therefore

  you know have some control over you need

  to replace the battery like that you

  know using language that is more honest

  and accountable I think would do a lot

  of good here the whole point of this

  notification is to fix the problem they

  had before which is they were slowing

  down people's phones without telling

  them this kind of sort of fixes that but

  if the people don't really know what's

  going on and they later find out oh my

  phone has been slowed down by Apple you

  know because of this thing I don't think

  they're gonna feel better

  necessarily than they would if they

  weren't told at all because if this is

  all they saw and they didn't really

  understand what was going on then they

  effectively weren't told about so it

  doesn't really solve the problem I'm

  glad that they have a notification I

  think you nailed it Marco that you know

  it may not be perfect there's certainly

  you know issues that we can and just

  have taken with it but I do think that

  telling the user what the hell is going

  on is a good first step in and I welcome

  this improvement yeah but you need to

  subtract some of the California from

  this dialog and apply a little bit of

  East Coast to it good friggin luck my

  friend I agree with you but good luck it

  mean how can how can you expect people

  who don't live in the real world to

  communicate with people who live in

  wordid by Apple in California oh well

  done all right moving on Mac OS this is

  actually breaking news and I mean that

  genuinely this is just breaking in the

  last like hour or two so we're recording

  this in the evening of April 11th on

  Wednesday night and apparently a few

  people are reporting all at the same

  moment that Mac OS ten point thirteen

  point four is now going to warn users

  about 32-bit apps this is a quote from

  Jason Snell Apple's long transition away

  from 32-bit software takes another step

  beginning April 12 when the clock

  strikes switching our local time Mac's

  running Mac OS ten point thirteen point

  four will display a warning the first

  time any non apple app that isn't 64-bit

  compliant is opened interesting I mean

  this isn't that surprising they're

  clearly you know like they have not been

  that secretive that like 32-bit support

  is on its way out this is it's just like

  what they did in iOS when iOS 11 I

  believe was the one that dropped right I

  think so yeah and so like for iOS 10

  like ten point for whatever temp with

  you whatever the last version of ten was

  they started showing this alert then

  began you know the over iOS apps and

  they added a little section in settings

  where you could see which of your apps

  was 32-bit and so that's that's nice you

  can do this I think it's gonna be more

  disruptive on the Mac like you like we

  mentioned briefly last week but you know

  telling telling users what's about to

  happen before it happens in you know six

  months to a year or whenever it would be

  is certainly a good thing this dialogue

  I think is better worded this one

  actually tells you what's what the

  problem is I don't know I've always

  found these apps like when when the one

  happened on ten point whatever nobody I

  knew who was who didn't already know

  where the dialogue is about guess

  correctly from a thing and I don't know

  how they should have worked because

  people don't care about 32 or 64 but but

  what it actually says is though it's a

  two line dialogue guys got the bold line

  and then the longer non bold sentence

  underneath it says whatever the

  application name is not optimized for

  your Mac now yeah this actually is a

  terrible dialogue now about now is not

  optimized for your Mac that's not really

  true like I know what they're trying to

  get at but but it makes it seem like the

  same app that

  running fine yesterday now somehow like

  because people read optimized and think

  it means slower or something and right

  it's the same speed as it was yesterday

  right and then the other part says this

  app needs to be updated by its developer

  to improve compatibility that's that's

  closer to true because yeah but what the

  remedy is developer of the app needs to

  do something like you user can't do

  anything about this the developer needs

  to do it and why isn't it to be updated

  to improve compatibility compatible what

  compatibility with an OS that Apple is

  going to release sometime in the semi

  near future that's what they don't say

  that that's what it's about so it's

  tough to word this one I kind of get

  that but that's actually really bad so

  like you know so not your are not

  optimized means it might be slow which

  is very different from it's going to

  stop working in six months if you update

  your your Mac OS and when the iOS dialog

  came out if I remember correctly I think

  it's a summons of that it won't work in

  future versions of iOS or in a future

  version of iOS but this like to improve

  compatibility that's pretty euphemistic

  too that's like you know what they

  should say is this appease me related by

  its developer to work on a future

  version of Mac OS something like that

  that's even a little more vague about

  the timeline but just to say like you

  know improve compatibility doesn't mean

  anything not optimized means that are

  run slowly the truth here is this is

  going to stop working completely soon

  and the iOS 11 dialogue said app name

  needs to be updated which i think is

  better than app name he's not optimizing

  she's now optimized where it needs to be

  updated it's much more clear and then

  the the subtext was the developer of

  this app needs to update to work with

  iOS 11 so not only was it clear that's

  pretty nice to be updated so it will

  work we're like a future OS but it tells

  you the name iOS 11 so yeah the iowa's

  dialogue was definitely better yeah that

  is perfect

  oh wait before we move on so the so that

  dialogue has buttons it has an OK button

  which is just like ok whatever nothing

  happens

  your app will launch them by the way

  like it doesn't stop your app from

  launching it just shows this the first

  time you launch it maybe you say ok just

  launches and it's just like it was the

  day before the style I hear there's a

  learn more button and learn more button

  takes you to Apple's

  knowledgebase article about this which

  is pretty good and it explains you know

  what's going on in more detail than the

  dialogue obviously which by the way this

  is

  you know the iOS thing lacks this it

  doesn't there's no place to get more

  information as far as I can tell it and

  I should try it I try to get that to

  come up and tap it or something anyway

  the part that stuck out to me in this

  knowledgebase article is when it gets to

  the point where like explains to you

  like you can't do anything about this

  developer needs updated this is why I

  blah blah near the end there's a section

  that says how do I get in touch with the

  app developer which i think is a good

  question

  so you telling me you know people see

  this out log and I say the developer

  needs to update and they're like

  developer like I don't do I even know

  what that is let alone who it is how

  would I find the developer of this app

  and if I was a tasked with writing this

  I would find myself writing like seven

  paragraphs about like well so sometimes

  it's not an individual sometimes it's a

  company sometimes the company that used

  to make the application is gone you know

  like how would you find the person maybe

  they've moved on maybe they don't have

  that job anymore maybe no one is

  maintaining this software you know

  there's no 100% sure way to find the

  person who wrote this but like of course

  they can't do that like they're not

  gonna go on for 20 pages so they have a

  very short bit of information that like

  I don't know I can't think of much

  better but this seems bad to me the

  easiest way to contact a developer is to

  look them up on the web to find the name

  of the developer of an app open the app

  click the app name and the menu bar and

  choose about so they're saying to the

  about that is two sentences right first

  one says look them up on the web what if

  the developer is John Smith look them up

  on the web the about box maybe it will

  have link to their website but maybe you

  will just have a name or maybe it'll

  just say my cool software company

  incorporated you know 2010 right it's

  that's really just throwing people into

  the deep end I don't know do Google

  search they figure it out maybe you'll

  find somebody this is gonna cause people

  with the same name as a 32-bit app

  developers to get a lot of bad email my

  favorite part of this entire page is the

  very first sentence in the body text

  state of the art technology is what

  makes a Mac a Mac that was written years

  ago though has been updated as

  knowledgebase article yeah I was gonna

  say like look at the Mac's that are for

  sale today and tell me which of them

  have state of the art technology

  all of the maksud are for sale not just

  the most recent models let's see does

  the MacBook Air have state of the art

  technology how about the Mac Mini it is

  still a product in their lineup we are

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  our show Shawn Harding writes hey I had

  one of those Pro clip mounts that went

  into a gap in the dash for my Audi s5 it

  not only went in the gap but also had

  adhesive I was hesitant but gave in and

  I lost my desktop hello sorry things are

  happening on my computer where the fuck

  did that go while you were reading did

  the window disappear out from under your

  eyeballs well because I was opening a

  new window in before this all before I

  started reading all this and then it

  opened and then things disappear your

  computer is slow Oh would you stop

  you're opening a window then you had

  time to read two sentences then the

  window finally opened I was opening up

  in the nCWIT window leave me alone now

  let me reboot this whole fuckin thing

  what are using VNC for what are you

  remotely controlling I'm remotely

  controlling the laptop that's sitting

  like 2 2 inches away from me because I

  am trying to to look at something for

  work real quick so I don't have to worry

  about it

  are you doing air traffic control during

  this podcast what's going on are you

  trying to land planes with us we are

  talking with the Mac Pro yet you can't

  we be paying your bills and stuff yeah I

  know I know I know I'm we're getting

  there right so let me just reboot this

  whole damn thing

  Sean holding lights I'm rebooting

  nothing not literally repeating no just

  segments he's trying to keep that out of

  the show but I'm pretty sure he's going

  in no it's not going on please now Sean

  Harding writes I had one of those Pro

  clip mounts that went in the gap in the

  day it went into a gap in the dash for

  my Audi s5 and not only one in the gap

  but it also had adhesive I was hesitant

  but gave in and now I have a big gap in

  the trim and adhesive residue two thumbs

  down so the pro clip mounts that I was

  talking about last week if I go in your

  car like they're made for each

  individual car model certain you know

  the design of certain dashboards and

  stuff like the you know certain ones are

  gonna be easier or harder to fix

  something very securely to than others I

  lucked out in that mine just uses the

  air vent and just kind of uses like a

  pressure fit inside the air vent top and

  bottom so that it doesn't leave anything

  behind and there's no like permanent -

  damage should buy it but if your car is

  one where it has to do something a

  little more aggressive then you know

  that makes

  to to have that be a problem for you you

  know I just it isn't a problem for me

  also its Elise maybe you don't want to

  mess with the - because who knows what

  they'll say about that when you try to

  give it back the thing about the vent

  ones that some people wrote in about is

  they're like oh isn't it bad to keep

  your phone there like in the winter with

  heat blowing out of the vent on it and I

  just assumed that every car has like

  that little dial or whatever that lets

  you turn off the vent and I would

  suggest that if you in the winter if you

  have your phone an event clip turn the

  vent behind the phone off so heat isn't

  constantly belong in the back of your

  phones that's terrible and the summer

  air conditioning blowing the back that's

  probably great because it gets pretty

  heat hot in the car with the Sun beating

  down on your phone so that'll probably

  even out but if you have no dial because

  your car as a weird super modern thing

  where there's no way to control the air

  vents except for a tiny dot in the

  middle of a giant field that you drag

  around as a vague way to suggest in the

  car where there might come out yeah that

  sounds pretty cool to be honest I

  haven't seen it yet but it sounds pretty

  cool

  yours doesn't have that I thought that

  was on although it's only the mile three

  which I haven't seen in real life yet

  but I was like if you just want to turn

  off the vent that your phone is attached

  true though I'm not sure how you can do

  that by dragging a puck around a little

  ice hockey rink

  I actually no I don't think I can turn

  off event like they have a little like

  slider things you can redirect it but

  there's no I don't think I can turn that

  vent off I don't have the little dial no

  but but this isn't a problem in reality

  because automatic climate control never

  has the heat blowing out of the center

  vents it's always blown in the feet vent

  the defroster vent or both but it's

  never blowing out the front vents that's

  not how you're supposed to heat a car

  why wouldn't you want out of the front

  vents because you don't need heat

  blowing in your face you look at your

  feet sometimes my face is cold I'll tell

  you where I want the air I I would not

  consider this a big problem in reality

  for almost anybody because the way

  you're supposed to be climate managing

  your car you shouldn't really be blowing

  a lot of hot air through the front fence

  anyway and also if you're using your

  phone in a doc and running like waged

  something it's already running so hot

  that you know it actually might improve

  the heat efficiency of your car to be

  blowing it across your phone on the way

  to your face okay because because the

  phone is you know 150 degrees but the

  air coming out of the vent 275 so it's

  actually cool

  exactly all right with regard to my

  beloved blue towel speaking of car

  related things indeed five rights at the

  surgical rag that I use is called a huck

  h uck it's a sterile towel used to dry

  hands after a surgical scrub before

  operating and apparently he has a

  million of them and then Eugene fries in

  writes in that they're actually

  available on Amazon so I'll put a link

  in the show notes I was not aware of

  this which is super good news because I

  kind of need some we also got some

  feedback about whether or not it's

  plastic ventilating onto the interior of

  your windshield John do you have any

  thoughts on that or do you not care yeah

  no it's true I'm guessing from them you

  know that new car smell and various

  other things that you smell in cars of

  outgassing from carpets and from plastic

  and a lot of that crap gets all over

  your windshield and makes it gross fun

  finally our almost finally actually car

  subscriptions Zach a friend of mine

  asked why not have like a lyft

  subscription you know like insurance the

  light users would subsidize the heavy

  ones that sounded like a brilliant idea

  and then fast-forward like three days

  after I heard this feedback from my

  buddy Zach and I somehow saw an article

  or a headline or something like that

  about how lyft actually is or will soon

  be offering subscriptions which I didn't

  know was the thing this is the kind of

  thing that like it's it's nice in a lot

  of situations and it might even it might

  even prove to be nice in the majority of

  situations for some people but the the

  great flexibility of having your own car

  parked in your driveway or in your

  garage or nearer in front of your place

  is that it's always there ready for you

  it's it's dedicated capacity just for

  you if you're relying on not public

  transit but if you're lying on like

  services like lyft or uber or other like

  kind of car share services there's only

  a certain number of cars out there in a

  given time and they're only in a certain

  number of places and they're there a lot

  you know less densely available once you

  get out of the major cities when you

  have your own car it's always there

  ready for you no matter when you want to

  use it with zero weight or close enough

  to zero weight when you're relying on

  something like this it might work nine

  times out of ten but then the tenth time

  you go to use it oh there aren't any for

  the next 45 minutes or it's a spike

  because of demand or the nearest one is

  no too far away and doesn't want to take

  your ride or you keep getting the same

  one over and over again that's some

  driver that's terrible that you don't

  want that you know their car smells like

  smoke and cats and stuff and it's like

  when it's yours when it's your car it is

  always there ready to go and so

  depending on how important that car and

  the mobility are to you anything for

  most people in most of America it's very

  important because the public

  infrastructure just isn't there for most

  of us having that car be dedicated to

  you having your own that's always ready

  to go that's always right there that's

  always yours and you can put your stuff

  in it and you can you can know that's

  always gonna be there and be ready

  that's gonna have a pretty big advantage

  for a lot of people so I don't see

  service it I don't see personal car

  ownership of some form going away like

  lyft and uber that's not that that's

  something else the subscription is just

  another way to have cars that are yours

  so that I think makes some sense maybe

  in the future but it's never going to be

  totally replaced in America unless our

  density radically changes which I don't

  see happening this is a psychological

  pricing ploy like for for city dwellers

  who are never gonna own the car because

  they can't afford a parking spot for it

  or whatever you use lift all the time

  anyway you can convince enough of them

  to subscribe essentially paying more

  like like Zak said most people will say

  oh it's just easier to pay a

  subscription and not have to worry about

  the hassle of you know paying each time

  and everything and maybe that'll make me

  feel like oh I'll use it more I have a

  subscription I'll use it more right

  and maybe they won't use it more you

  know and so this will end up making more

  money from the people who thought they

  were gonna really totally use that

  description all the time but actually

  take the same number of rides as they

  always did it ends up being a bad deal

  for them but the few heavy users get a

  really good deal because now they can

  just ride as much as they want for a

  flat fee so lyft will figure out the

  economics of it I'm sure and try to but

  that it's the type of pricing psychology

  that can make everybody involved feel

  like they're getting a good deal even

  though obviously you know they're not

  right so lyft would be happy if they

  make more money and the users would be

  happy if they perceive the the

  subscription as a good value regardless

  whether it's actually a good value

  finally somebody and I don't have the

  scene out in front of me somebody was

  very grumpy about the fact that we

  called San Jose not very big and John

  did you put this in here would you like

  to happen that happened last year too

  and we were talking about San Jose we

  got so much feedback about I forget we

  ever even did fall about it but we

  should and because I've totally forgot

  about the fallout from last year already

  we're like Oh San Jose like nobody's

  there it's empty it's not like Samer so

  it's not a big city like San Francisco

  and any time we said anything like that

  someone from San Jose or near San Jose

  right st. to tell us mean well you know

  San Jose is bigger than ther an cisco

  has a bigger population in San Francisco

  you know all the things about how San

  Jose it's just massive compared to

  everything that we be you know we're

  saying it's small but it's not right and

  to that I would say Texas has more

  people than San Jose but if I drop a pin

  anywhere in Texas chances are good I'm

  gonna look around not see that much all

  about density San Jose is bigger San

  Jose has more people but practically

  speaking if you are a person you could

  drop down and WWC and you look around

  you'd be like where all the people as a

  tumble beat tumbleweed goes by right

  like it is very different experience

  from the vastly higher density of where

  Moscone is San Francisco so that's what

  we meant we know it's a big city we know

  there's lots of people somewhere also I

  was interested

  not a single person refuted my Truman

  Show theory about everybody who works

  there but they're just writing your name

  down a little book of a little you know

  picture of you says do not serve this

  person or serve this person even more

  slowly than usual I'm not sure I'd be

  able to tell the difference like oh here

  we go you wanted to order something I

  don't know if I can do that I'll just

  check with my boss to see if you can

  order something well I'm gonna laugh

  when you get says so PO or whatever it's

  called and and they are like oh wait

  you're Marco yeah we're not serving you

  what would you do you would have nowhere

  to go you would have you would have no

  court to rule over I'd go to the beer

  and sausage place up the street

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  sponsoring our show all right it's time

  I'm gonna go to sleep now guys there's

  been some Mac Pro news I love that

  you're bringing this up you're just you

  could have just moved on you should

  summarize the Mac Pro news that's what

  you should do yeah chief summarizer in

  chief I'm going to attempt to so friend

  of the show and said with no sarcasm

  friend of the show Matthew piensa Reno

  was invited by himself which is actually

  kind of interesting in and of itself I

  don't know if we need to unpack that

  right now or not but Matt Pan's Reno was

  invited to Apple and was put in front of

  several different both executives and

  engineers and

  to talk about hey what's going on with

  Mac Pro and my summary which I'm sure

  both of you will take issue with and

  that's fine but my summary is Apple

  wanted to give a little more insight

  into what's going on with the Mac Pro

  you could we can and surely we'll

  pontificate about why that is but one

  can assume and I think I actually said

  that hey we don't want you to make

  purchasing decisions on the hope that

  the Mac Pro is coming out later this

  year so they made it plain that it will

  not be out until 2019

  they said 2019 but we don't know when in

  they said that and this was what I found

  most interesting they've created a

  workflow group as I believe what they

  called it and what that basically means

  is they have contracted and/or hired

  creative professionals to sit literally

  next to the people who work on say Final

  Cut Pro and work on the Mac Pro as well

  in order to better understand what their

  workflows are and they cited an example

  and I think it was Final Cut Pro it

  doesn't really matter but they said in

  an example of oh these creative

  professionals there's they open this one

  dialogue and Final Cut Pro all the time

  and it takes like 10 seconds to open

  this dialogue and nobody at Apple

  somehow knew this and so because they're

  now sitting next to each other you know

  the the creative professionals walk down

  the hall and said hey guys can we do

  something about this dialogue because

  this sucks

  and sure enough it turned out there was

  like an error in some driver somewhere

  or something like that and they were

  able to fix it so the point of all this

  is Apple is trying to engage with the

  broader professional community people

  like us in say hey you know you need to

  buy an iMac Pro go buy an iMac Pro we

  don't wait for the Mac Pro because

  you're not getting it for a while

  additionally they're they're engaging

  with with the broader professional

  community in the sense that they've

  asked some of these people to come in

  house and help them understand what

  their workflows are which III think you

  can argue both that that's great and

  that's terrible and I'm sure we're about

  to do exactly that

  but one way or another it is it is more

  insight than we've had into the Mac Pro

  in a long long time and it shows us that

  it's still a thing which is exciting it

  tells us rough

  FLE with an emphasis on roughly when

  it's going to be released and they also

  said that no no it's going to be modular

  and I am happy to report John siracusa

  that they are making it plain or perhaps

  reiterating that they are making a

  display for it still I know you're very

  excited and I am happy that you're happy

  that is I think my summary and as much

  as I'm snarking about this this is

  actually pretty fascinating even for me

  I don't see a MacPro in my future but

  this is really really really interesting

  and a very different approach than

  apples taken in the past and whether or

  not I view a Mac Pro is something I need

  to buy and honestly I don't think it's

  something that any of us need to buy but

  we can argue about that another time I

  said too that this approach I still

  think that this approach is really

  fascinating so with that in mind I will

  open the floor perhaps we can start with

  Marco what are your thoughts I mean to

  me like you know this is this has been

  positioned and summarized by many

  including she's summarized here in chief

  in part as a Mac Pro you know round

  table successor from last year but

  there's really no new information here

  about the Mac Pro the only thing that we

  know about the Mac Pro we didn't know

  before is that it's definitely not

  coming out this year that's the only

  thing that's new here what this was

  really about I think is you know setting

  expectations for that or to be able to

  seat it to come and go and for the rest

  of the year to come and go without Pro

  is saying hey where the heck's the Mac

  Pro you know that that's really what I

  think this was about on that side and

  then to kind of paper over that or to

  offset that with something that's

  positive by showing off that they have

  this new you know kind of like in-house

  study of pro users in you know in their

  natural environment and geometrically

  speaking this announcement was an

  open-faced shit sandwich that fell face

  down on the floor

  [Laughter]

  we're news bad news good news you just

  get the bad news and then you get the

  good news so the bad news is no MacPro

  this year and the good news is I look at

  the pro workflow team isn't that cool

  and you know honestly I mean this is you

  know heavy on the PR puff obviously and

  you know not from Pantera but from Apple

  and there's not a lot of new information

  really here but it is interesting that

  this Pro you know group thing was

  created there and and is is you know

  being observed and being worked with

  that is that is the more interesting

  part of this announcement by far the

  actual like again there's no information

  with the Mac Pro we don't know anything

  at the Mac Pro except it's not come in

  this year I can speculate on why you

  know we all can many of us have honestly

  I don't think it's that interesting yet

  because again we have no new information

  except that you know that big hole in

  the timeline of it's gonna be next year

  which I'm glad they said it's going to

  be 2019 as opposed to it's not going to

  be this year you said that it could be

  2025 or Never

  so at least they committed to a year you

  can also speculate as many people have

  why is it taking Apple so long to

  develop what should probably just be a

  fairly straightforward like tower or

  something tower like the answer to that

  that's most likely is that last year

  like about a year ago when they had that

  roundtable I think it is very likely

  that they literally had not even started

  yet that it was like it was decided

  within a very short time before that

  that they that they were going to do

  this and that means that from 2013 until

  they were probably not doing any work at

  all on a Mac Pro they were probably

  assuming the iMac Pro was it and they

  were only working on the iMac Pro so

  it's not that they couldn't do a new

  tower in you know five years or whatever

  since the last Mac Pro it's that they

  can't do it a new tower in a year and a

  half that's I think what we're really

  seeing here the even that is slightly

  concerning because even that's like you

  know what pros want is new hardware in

  some kind of expandable box we don't

  need

  fancy designs we don't need you know a

  lot of different types of quote

  innovation we just need new guts in a

  box and for Apple to be you know kind of

  taking their sweet time and trying to

  work on probably something that's like

  really you know highly designed highly

  custom that's nice I'm sure that

  satisfies Apple but that's not really

  what pros are asking for for this

  product but I don't think we can talk

  Apple out of that kind of design anymore

  I think that's kind of just what they do

  and from that point of view the the time

  scale seems reasonable that they just

  started last year and they're not just

  doing something basic even though many

  of us want them to do exactly that for

  this product because they can save the

  innovation for all of the rest of their

  products including the iMac Pro which is

  fairly innovative in a few ways and it's

  really nice I really like the iMac Pro

  but anyway they're they're not doing

  that so oh well I do think it's

  interesting also to think now maybe one

  of the reasons they're taking a little

  bit of time on this is you know what I

  expected was the iMac Pro guts in a box

  with a couple of GPU slots and maybe it

  may be you know space for a few m to

  drive modules I don't think that's what

  they're doing and and when the iMac Pro

  came out and and when we saw how awesome

  it was and how few downsides it had and

  had few restrictions it had one of the

  things that that we said at the time was

  what the heck is left for the Mac Pro to

  address like how much Headroom above

  this can the Mac Pro really achieve you

  know are they gonna go dual processor

  maybe have many graphics cards you know

  support it or different types of slots

  or whatever who knows what right we were

  trying to figure out like what else what

  is left for the Mac Pro to do that the

  iMac Pro doesn't do so maybe in order to

  create more Headroom in that area maybe

  I took a bit of you know special

  engineering maybe they're doing

  something they haven't done before like

  for instance if they if they're working

  from the road map of the old Mac Pro of

  the 2013 Mac Pro that one had this rigid

  GPU arrangement that only supported

  these two GPUs and this one kind of

  weird arrangement with this kind of

  weird integration with the Thunderbolt

  bus and it only supported one CPU and

  you know the whatever it is four or six

  RAM slots and and one SSD module maybe

  they're doing dual socket CPUs and that

  dramatically complicates things and and

  how you have to you know layout the

  internals how you have to cool things

  maybe they're doing a box that can

  accommodate lots of different

  configurations like the old towers could

  so maybe you could have one or two CPUs

  one or four GPU is like you know they

  did all sorts of crazy things back with

  the old cheese graters and stuff the

  difference now is that the cheese

  graders were all before Thunderbolt

  there was a lot less internal PCI

  Express bandwidth and things like that

  that had to be allocated to external

  storage and GPUs were lower bandwidth

  and everything was lower bandwidth back

  then and so to design something now you

  have to really consider like how you

  balance like PCI Express allocations and

  lanes and speeds between internal and

  external stuff how you route video

  signals over the thunderbolt and and how

  you like do you route the output to the

  GPU to a thunderbolt port on on the back

  like how do you do that it's fairly

  complicated to design a really good mac

  pro tower with modern features and

  modern bandwidth and everything else

  that's also that also has like

  interchangeable slots like that's a hard

  thing so if they're doing something like

  that taking two years to do it seems

  reasonable I don't know what else what

  they're doing but I hope so so like the

  the people were saying wanted there just

  to give us a box and slap things

  together like I think there's a minimum

  there's a minimum bar of not even

  innovation but just quality or attention

  to detail or thoughtfulness that we

  expect from a lot of people a lot of

  people look at the cheese graters and

  say oh it's just a tower case yeah it's

  an it's a nice looking tower case but

  whatever is just a tower like it's not

  it has a door but it's just got a bunch

  of slots and a motherboard and RAM it's

  like cool it's not much different this

  from pcs our eyes evidence piled the PC

  Tower clones that came after it but I

  think that the very first one the Power

  Mac g5 I think that probably took them

  longer to design that plain and boring

  tower case and everything that goes into

  it then they're spending there they're

  gonna end up spending on this macro but

  I Pro like

  it's not because they're insisting on

  doing something really weird like the

  trashcan right because the the Power Mac

  g5 was not really weird it was a tower

  like straightforward like there wasn't

  it wasn't it wasn't weird at all but if

  you look at it it's like well it's very

  carefully designed they you know the

  case is has very you know simple design

  with a big curved piece of aluminum

  wrapped around a minimum number of seams

  the door giving you access to the

  insides you know the way the door fits

  in and that whole mechanism how they

  route all the ribbon cables so they're

  not that you know to make it look nice

  on the inside so the ribbon cables are

  all tucked behind the motherboard and

  they're just the right length and stuff

  like that

  the way the motherboard is laid out I

  mean all the various custom chips that

  might go into it that aren't in any

  other Mac it's not rocket science and

  it's not like the thing that people are

  afraid of like oh there it's gonna be

  shaped like a squid and it's gonna have

  you know Thunderbolt 3 connecting

  everything and like all sorts of just

  make me a box say Apple is doing that

  we're just making you a box it is

  literally a tower it is the air comes in

  the front and out the back it is totally

  straightforward but doing that the Apple

  Way takes longer than people think and I

  kind of want them to do it the Apple way

  like if you're in a super big hurry I

  can understand like you're like we need

  towers yesterday we can't use the iMac

  Pro for whatever reasons just you know

  slap it together like they like people

  who would be happy with the hackintosh

  right I don't I don't care what it looks

  like how nice it is I don't care how

  nice the seams are or whatever just slap

  it together but I don't think Apple is

  really capable of doing that like even

  even its products that we you know it's

  quote-unquote worst products like the

  products that we complain about like are

  you still selling the MacBook Air or

  whatever MacBook Air is still nice like

  industrial design why is the screen is

  gross but like everything else about it

  you know it looks expensive and

  carefully designed like it's not falling

  apart and has weird seams and things

  poking out of it and doesn't look

  slapped together it looks old but it

  doesn't look slap together Apple

  generally just is not you know

  institutionally capable of making

  hardware that looks like it's been

  slapped together like on a speedy

  schedule like we didn't have time to

  actually design this we just use a bunch

  of stock parts and we screw them

  together like the way the bed wrap of

  you know American cars or any car maker

  that use like a parts bin dashboard

  where we have a bunch of things that we

  use in all our cars like the window

  switches or whatever and we're not going

  to design custom onto this car because

  it's too much trouble so just slapping

  the same switches that we use on all

  other cars very American car markets

  used to do stuff like us all the time

  these days there's more custom parts in

  cars than you would expect but that type

  of thing it's just not how Apple does

  things they're not aside from trying to

  share the same stupid keyboard and all

  their laptops they like I don't think

  this this thing is gonna you know if

  it's as it could be as boring as bread

  and butter and it's still gonna take

  them two years to make it that's just

  how long the stuff takes and like you

  were saying marker with like you were

  thinking that it would just be the iMac

  Pro internals I still think that III

  thought that from the beginning that

  look don't get your hopes up for the

  insides of this Mac Pro to be anything

  other thing than the insides of that in

  terms of specs like obviously things

  will be rearranged and there'd be a new

  board and and you know different slots

  and stuff like that but fully expected

  to have a t2 and to have the same class

  of Xeon and so on and so forth

  now with a delay I still more or less

  expect it to be rearranged iMac pro

  internals like I don't expect it to have

  a t3 chip I expected that of a t2 chip

  right because they don't have time to

  make a whole other one of those in this

  in this timeline right unless they were

  already making it for the iMac processor

  which I think they are not right so I

  expect iMac pro internals maybe with

  with the newer Xeon if it's a drop-in

  replacement right more slots for

  everything more RAM slots more storage

  spots possibly more room for internal

  storage right just like capacity you

  know start from the design sort of the

  design brief of this thing should be

  like more thermal capacity than an iMac

  Pro and every other feature flows from

  that because if you don't do more

  thermal capacity than an iMac Pro then

  the only thing you're the only benefit

  you're getting is well as the screen

  breaks you don't lose your whole

  computer right so I feel like this thing

  is going to have higher thermal ceiling

  than the iMac

  and then you can do lots of stuff with a

  thermal sailing and it's then then it

  becomes a question of talking to these

  pro people like a writer like what do

  you want do you want two CPUs would you

  rather have more PCI Express let's do we

  have to offer you're both if we just

  made all them have one CD would that be

  okay

  how much internal storage you want

  versus external like but it's all like

  how you spend your thermal budget but

  the budget has to be way higher than the

  iMac Pro and all anybody capacity how

  much storage can you put in how much RAM

  can you put in it right and then of

  course how much heat can it dissipate

  how many GPUs can you put it how big can

  the GPUs be and then finally like use on

  the iMac Pro one of the reasons you like

  it is because it doesn't sound like a

  hairdryer all the time and this to make

  a big tower computer that has high

  thermal capacity but it's also

  reasonably quiet is tricky like I think

  about all the pcs I see and sometimes

  lust after that have these you know

  nicely designed pcs that have big

  cooling capacity and try to be quiet

  that doesn't happen if you just take a

  box and slap a bunch of fans in it like

  you have to be thoughtful in some ways

  to make sure you don't have any weird

  hotspots because you didn't think about

  this component over there like I know

  people bill Caesar like just get a

  really big diameter fan and put a whole

  bunch of them in there and it's like

  straightforward you just put pieces

  together but and assembling a PC like

  that unless you have lots of experience

  and know exactly how everything's gonna

  work with a bunch of custom parts can

  lead to weird things where the heat

  gradients that you didn't expect there

  or a particular component that is not

  getting adequate cooling because there's

  just no way to route air to there and

  you it's just it's hacky and it's not

  it's not up the apples quality so I

  think that even if Apple is making the

  most boring box we could possibly think

  of that they have to they are going to

  do a better job then then I think some

  people would want those to those

  hackintosh type customers and as far as

  I'm concerned as someone who doesn't

  need this thing right now although you

  may disagree when you think to how old

  my Mac is but I'd rather like spend the

  time spend the time to make even if it's

  a boring tower spend the time to make a

  boring tower that's as nice as a cheese

  grater spend the time to make it look

  nice it's been in time to make sure that

  is super reliable

  that it's quiet figure out a way to make

  it quiet and yes spend the time talking

  to people the various prose and saying

  what do you what do you want out of this

  machine like do we have to make two

  slots or CPUs or is that something that

  nobody wants and we don't have to do

  that

  because I don't think they're gonna have

  17 different configurable versions of

  this right and I also don't think

  they're going to make it some magic

  modular snapped together a future

  technology Thunderbolt 3 powered octopus

  thing I know lots of people think that

  you know 2019 this is gonna be some

  crazy trashcan but I don't I don't think

  that I think it's gonna be a fairly

  straightforward machine I just want to

  be nice I just um

  I I'm struggling because I I do see both

  sides of this like on the one side just

  like you guys had said you know why not

  just make take the old cheese grater

  you know form-factor slap new bits in it

  and call it a day

  but there's been a lot of changes to the

  Mac in the last couple of years you know

  what used to be for the purposes of this

  conversation when it used to be just

  vanilla intel motherboards with vanilla

  intel chips on them now or not quite so

  simple we have the you know the tea to

  that that one of you guys mentioned

  earlier we have all these different you

  know coprocessors we have a touch bar

  that we have never seen be external to

  the device we have a secure Enclave

  there's so many different things that

  make this so much more complex than

  before and when when you also add

  modularity into this because there's

  basically no Apple computers sold today

  that is as modular as we are expecting

  and being told that this will be and I

  can't imagine it's easy to keep up with

  these extremely stringent security

  requirements while also doing this mod

  you know this modular thing so as an

  example like this phantom Apple display

  this new cinema display if you will

  presumably that's going to have a camera

  in an iSight camera in it or FaceTime

  camera or whatever they're calling it

  now presumably they're going to want

  that to be controlled by you know the t2

  or whatever it is it controls in these

  days how do you do that when it's not

  part of the device itself how does that

  work so yeah I mean you could just say

  yes screw it if somebody can hack your

  camera well tough nuggies you made this

  bed yourself if that's not apples

  so I understand all the angst about Oh

  we'll just you know use a cheese grater

  put some new bits in it walk away and I

  could make a pretty good argument that

  they should do that and then do the real

  Mac Pro afterwards but just like you

  said John like that's not Apple's way

  apples ways to make this interesting and

  innovative and and smart and I think and

  I hope that's what they're doing oh nice

  I like it doesn't have to be innovative

  because it's like as the cheese grater

  is it innovative like what's innovative

  about the cheese grater the only things

  innovative about it is how nice it is

  like it's not it was just it's just a

  tower case like the there was the CPUs

  weren't arranged in an octagon it wasn't

  cooled by like jellyfish like it was

  just a tower case with fans and had hard

  drives and RAM and slots and like it was

  very straightforward but it's nice that

  the trash can was innovative wow this

  tube shape thing with a chimney design

  and a little triangle motherboard and

  two GPUs and like that that was an

  innovative design and that's what people

  are afraid is happening and I I mean I'm

  assuming talking to the pros that pros

  are not saying please make it you know

  really weird like they they don't care

  what it looks like they hoping that the

  influence talking these people will

  cause it to be more will push back

  against any unconventional thinking that

  Apple may bring to the table what what

  if we gave you something like this I

  hope the pros go that might work but I

  know this will work so why don't you

  just make me this and by the way this

  article honest I'm mistaken does not say

  that this pro workflow team was created

  for this it just tells you about the pro

  work for the team I have no idea how

  long the pro workflow team has been an

  apple maybe they'd been there for a

  decade advising the Final Cut Pro team

  and every Pro Mac that they've ever made

  right this is just part of to soften the

  blow of the of the macro not being this

  year will tell you about a thing that

  previously we had no reason to tell you

  about because what do you care what we

  do internally right but to make you feel

  like we're really paying attention will

  tell you about this which i think is

  fine like if someone snarkily tweeted

  congratulations Apple you've discovered

  user acceptance testing which hasn't

  discovered it like I said I think this

  has always existed maybe it's been

  ramped up maybe they've been given

  closer access to machines instead of

  just being giving weird you know

  disguised boxes and saying what do you

  think of this but this this is the type

  of thing

  then you would hope any company's doing

  but that the sort of The Legend of Apple

  the the face that they present to the

  world doesn't include this like the The

  Legend of Apple is we don't need to talk

  to people to know what to make we don't

  do focus groups we don't ask you what

  you want because you don't know what you

  want will tell you what you want we know

  it's like we we just go off to the

  mountain and we come down with a thing

  and trust me you'll love it right and

  that's how we got the touch bar yeah

  maybe not I think maybe that's more of

  the focus group thing or someone has an

  idea and you tell people do you think

  this is a good idea and everyone goes

  yeah that sounds like it might be a good

  idea but people are dummies like this

  like it's a steve job the steve jobs

  school of thought of like you know don't

  ask people like we are smart enough on

  our own to figure it out if we ask

  people we'll make mediocre stuff because

  that's that's true of any product focus

  groups are death it's like the you know

  the homework are from from the simpsons

  right just everyone has ideas about what

  they think they want but everyone is not

  a product designer it's your job as a

  product designer to you no synthesize

  their desires and figure out what it is

  that they really want so on and so forth

  but the more company is perceived to be

  allowing the customer to lead them the

  more it is likely to make mediocre

  products and to lose sight of true

  innovation result innovators dilemma

  things like you know just keep talking

  to your best customers they'll

  continually ask for like we do on the

  show essentially it you just listen to

  your mainframe customers they keep

  telling you about how they want you to

  make better and better mainframes and

  you miss the PC revolution right because

  you're like because you just like well

  are all of our biggest customers say

  they want this and they want that and

  you will never make the PC if you keep

  talking to your mainframe customers you

  have to say well actually there's

  another thing we should be doing and

  those customers will never tell us to do

  that there's a million business books

  about this right but Apple we don't

  perceive as saying we're not really sure

  how to make a pro computer can we get

  some pros and here to tell us what do

  you like do you like this do you like

  that like it's if strong position like a

  weakness and we want them to just know

  everything automatically and just make

  beautiful things that everybody loved

  reality of course is neither extreme is

  true Steve Jobs is Apple still took

  customer feedback and like that's always

  been a part of the process and this

  whole Pro work ball team I'm sure it

  does have some influence but in the end

  of Johnny Arizona

  it's not going on there so I think you

  know this is one of the reasons you

  don't talk about your process because

  once people out something company start

  thinking about your process it it loses

  some of the magic and you start worrying

  about is that really the best process to

  do this I'm not on that fair workflow

  team what if they're not talking to me

  in fact we got some feedback about that

  from other people saying yeah they're

  talking to pros in film and video and

  whatever industries but they're not

  talking to pros in my industry whatever

  that may be you know academics R&D you

  know scientific stuff I don't know I

  figured what the calories outside of

  what they have listed that are on the

  pro work with and for all we know the

  protein does include all those they

  didn't tell us everything about them but

  either way if you don't feel like your

  views are being represented and you buy

  into the idea that it's that small group

  of people that's essentially dictating

  what this machine will look like that

  doesn't feel good either because now

  when the machine comes out you could be

  like oh great that business is a great

  machine for video editors but for me

  doing medical imaging it sucks they

  should have had medical images in there

  for a murkrow team that's you know

  that's the difficulty of making any

  product they are not gonna make an

  entire line of Mac Pro's to suit

  everybody's needs they're gonna make one

  that suits most people's needs where

  most is defined as people Apple things

  will buy a Mac Pro and at that with the

  asterisk we hope it will suit most

  people's needs we hope yeah maybe

  they'll be wrong about that maybe you

  know that's again what the process like

  wouldn't it be for all you know Apple if

  you made this kind of computer a whole

  new class of people would want to buy it

  and ignore the pro video people because

  your real market is you know like makers

  but their 3d printers and they need to

  do CAD on it I don't know like that's

  kind of apples job to figure out but if

  you start if your starting point is a

  more or less conventional tower with a

  separate monitor that's really nice and

  that has the same capabilities and

  performance profile as the iMac Pro but

  with more capacity that's a pretty good

  starting point for most people know they

  can ask for things here and there but I

  don't think that that Pro work

  is going to do anything other than have

  minor suggestions about a very

  conventional design and best-case

  scenario that team was able to dissuade

  Apple very early on like last year

  sometime to not make you know a weird

  octopus thing right say yeah don't go

  down that path like we have some

  sketches I hope everyone involved would

  say that might be good it might be bad

  but it's an unknown and you already did

  that with a trash can so let's just reel

  this back in let's let's start with a

  box I feel like - like there's there's

  different levels at which this kind of

  like user focus group or work group is

  useful or needed it makes total sense to

  have people who use say the pro apps

  work with Apple on some level and have

  Apple asked them like what they need and

  watch what they need and and you know

  we're we're closely with them to tailor

  the pro apps to the needs of the people

  who buy them but as you go kind of

  further down I guess the stack of the

  platforms the operating systems and then

  eventually the hardware it gets less and

  less specific the whole appeal of

  personal computing is that these

  machines are generalists they can be

  used to do anything lots of different

  tasks can be done on these machines and

  so the the hardware and the platforms in

  the OS have to be able to support

  anything because you never know what

  people are going to do you know you can

  you can pick a few use cases and say

  let's make sure you know that it works

  well for these use cases because we've

  heard that a lot of people use it for

  that or something but you can never

  accommodate everything via user testing

  that people are going to want these

  computers and operating systems to do so

  as you go down like it yeah have the the

  team that makes final cut work with

  video editors that makes total sense

  but even that is like kind of hard to

  describe like I guarantee you no one on

  the logic team has ever watched somebody

  had on a podcast and logic and maybe

  it's a pretty light use case I don't

  know but I'm telling you it's never

  happened but anyway the OS and the ha

  we're have to be as versatile as

  possible so this is why this is kind of

  like a like I don't think this has a lot

  to do with the Mac Pro like this this

  user I think this is purely like a PR

  thing to cover up they the information

  they wanted to communicate was don't

  expect a Mac Pro this year and as John

  said you know they they gave you this

  Pro workflows group thing as like

  something good to stick on top of that

  and that's nice but I don't think

  they're that related and the design of

  the of a Mac any Mac even you know a lot

  of people have been arguing about like

  the definition of Pro what counts as a

  pro I think this is a totally useless

  distinction it doesn't matter Pro is

  marketing that's all it is it Pro just

  means the bigger one of the more

  expensive one any other any other

  focusing of what this definition is is

  is not productive all of the computers

  in the lineup should be as versatile as

  possible the OS and the platforms and

  everything should be as versatile as

  possible to accommodate any kind of work

  any kind of workflow any kind of

  workload the only reason that you

  shouldn't be able to do something on a

  MacBook Air that you can do on a Mac Pro

  is if the MacBook Air doesn't have

  hardware support for what you're doing

  if it doesn't have enough RAM or if it's

  just too damn slow or if it doesn't have

  enough Thunderbolt bandwidth that should

  be the only difference between these

  products and when computers are properly

  designed which they have been for

  decades that is the only distinction if

  for most types of applications unless

  there's like a specific GPU requirement

  something like you don't quote need a

  MacBook Pro to edit video you couldn't

  edit video in a MacBook Air it'll just

  be slower and stuff like that like when

  you buy or if you sell computers you try

  to make these distinctions you try to

  say oh well this you need to go to this

  model if you need to do this or this way

  if you're only doing this you should

  only be using this cheapo crappy model

  over here but these distinctions are all

  just for sales and marketing and for the

  most part the only thing that matters is

  does it have the tech specs to do what

  you need at all and then you can argue

  about how fast to bring in user testing

  groups like it like this to influence

  hardware decisions I think is

  questionable because for a long time

  to the best of our knowledge these kinds

  of people being brought in and for

  Hardware decisions were not necessary or

  weren't happening and we don't we still