0:00:00speak to us an Elvish clan O'Sullivan
0:00:03pen and Muriel oh dear algebra haha we
0:00:07did it away that's going on
0:00:10the incontrovertible number 124 Johnny
0:00:17week 2013 welcome back to the
0:00:20incomparable podcast I'm your host Jason
0:00:22Snell and tonight's topic is going to be
0:00:24a series of movies based on a series of
0:00:28books or depending on how you want to
0:00:29view it moved a really really really
0:00:31really really long movie released in
0:00:33parts based on a book that was really
0:00:35long and also released in parts
0:00:37yes we're going to talk about the lord
0:00:39of the rings and although we may touch
0:00:41on the book here and there this is not
0:00:43an episode about the book so much as it
0:00:45is an episode about the movies I suppose
0:00:47we can reserve the JRR Tolkien's books
0:00:50for for a different podcast a different
0:00:52episode in like 20 18 but in the
0:00:56meantime we're going to talk about the
0:00:57movies I do have my thousand-page got a
0:00:59single volume bound paperback copy of
0:01:02Lord of the Rings here so that i can
0:01:05read the songs of tom bombadil from it
0:01:08and sing some elvish later but before we
0:01:12get to that i'd like to introduce my
0:01:13guests who are joining me on this
0:01:14journey that may take about 11 hours to
0:01:17complete my first my first member of our
0:01:22little fellowship tonight is Glenn
0:01:24fleischmann hi glenn miller Lauren
0:01:26watermelon
0:01:29oh hello it's good to hear from you
0:01:33although i don't understand what the
0:01:34heck you're talking about you so you've
0:01:36watched the movies that make any sense
0:01:38no I'm with a glad to read the books yes
0:01:41I think your frogs and like speak friend
0:01:44and answer i don't speak elvish Glenn
0:01:46it's a foreign language I don't speak
0:01:48foreign languages besides which I was
0:01:51too busy worrying about the monster that
0:01:53was obviously in the pool but we'll get
0:01:54to that
0:01:55also on my fellowship although i'm
0:01:57suspicious heaps in the ring he may be
0:01:59after its indian taco hi Andy
0:02:01well i watch the movie and that didn't
0:02:04make any sense and i'm referring to the
0:02:06movies and not what Glenn had said
0:02:08fair enough either way really thank you
0:02:11for you for making me for making me
0:02:13watch like all 10 hours again which I
0:02:14legitimately was a good thing because
0:02:16I'd rather actually much much of these
0:02:19DVD sets that never actually watched
0:02:21because I've never actually
0:02:23I i went bought the first movie I got
0:02:25through the whole thing i bought the
0:02:27second movie and I got through about
0:02:28half of it and just never got around to
0:02:30the rest of it but the third movie kind
0:02:33of started it and zip to the ending I
0:02:35wanted to see that part where where
0:02:37where it go with your photo has to go
0:02:40away and I have to cry because the girl
0:02:43from the original mix of Angel of any
0:02:44Lennox is starting to sing on me cry but
0:02:46I this is the first time I've actually
0:02:48sat down and watched all three of these
0:02:50movies so this was a good i didn't make
0:02:52the reason you you volunteered you knew
0:02:54the job was dangerous when you took it
0:02:56you were the enzyme to the latticed
0:02:59protein of Lord of the Rings viewership
0:03:01alright i'll accept that that's what
0:03:03character but you know I'm i believe in
0:03:06free will also joining me on this
0:03:09Fellowship is my my my good friend from
0:03:14the Shire who likes to keep me company
0:03:16and occasionally polish my shoes it
0:03:18stand more in hi Dan
0:03:20no sorry mr. Jason give me some fried up
0:03:24some rabbit
0:03:25ok with some cojones we're going to make
0:03:28it to the end of this podcast uh well I
0:03:31was that way to a stupid voice and yet
0:03:32and yet there don't want anyways there
0:03:34it is
0:03:35blame you this part guess we'll all will
0:03:38all be be dead by the end of this
0:03:40podcast and is there is there anybody I
0:03:44have a field is why is it is the most
0:03:46important member of the fellowship he's
0:03:49our gray wizard it's john siracusa i
0:03:53think i am at all so i guess that
0:03:54qualifies for the hand that gives make
0:03:56sure I'd it does the point yet like Andy
0:03:59I think this is the first time I cracked
0:04:01open the super duper extra long bladder
0:04:03Buster edition of these movies that i
0:04:05have on blu-ray and went through the
0:04:08mall so uh how can I help it was worth
0:04:10it and I watch them all in one day is my
0:04:13third or fourth time watching the
0:04:15extended ones you definitely wearing
0:04:17your astronaut underwear for to get
0:04:18through these movies are you get his
0:04:19paws one of the other I guess before we
0:04:22get into the the details of the movies i
0:04:24wanted to go around and ask everybody
0:04:26what their what their experience
0:04:28watching them was and we touched on a
0:04:30little bit right here which is you did
0:04:32you see him
0:04:32did you see them in the movie theater
0:04:35have you watched them on video
0:04:36obviously there are these extended
0:04:38editions that are available on video as
0:04:40well as the theatrical edition so there
0:04:41are lots of different ways you can you
0:04:43can view these movies and given how long
0:04:45they are do you watch them across a few
0:04:48days three days six days something like
0:04:51that or where do you put in the
0:04:53astronaut underwear and just get it all
0:04:55done get er done
0:04:56I Glenn what about you well I saw the
0:05:00original releases in the movies theaters
0:05:02is and be steelers expression is already
0:05:06planning services and then when the
0:05:11extended versions came out I got those
0:05:13immediately because I'd I got the
0:05:15fellowship first and i thought that even
0:05:19the movies in theaters were pretty long
0:05:20to begin with I actually didn't think
0:05:22there were extra dimensions that made
0:05:24the sort of interminable battle scenes
0:05:27in some of the films and the walking and
0:05:29so forth more bearable because it was
0:05:31more of the mythology and more salty
0:05:34that they put back in so I've watched i
0:05:37have three extended editions in indy
0:05:41deform and watch those several times i
0:05:43think at least i think the most recent
0:05:45watches maybe the third or fourth time
0:05:48I've watched them and made a lot more
0:05:50fast-forwarding this time around I
0:05:52haven't previously yeah it was it was a
0:05:55tough one for me I think that
0:05:56psychologically would've been better if
0:05:58it had been set up like Game of Thrones
0:05:59where they if they had cut the movie
0:06:02into like hour-long episodes where
0:06:04mentally you know that you don't have to
0:06:07keep your brain cpu overclock following
0:06:10all these pull all the plot and all
0:06:12these characters all these locations
0:06:13because at the end of one hour there's
0:06:16going to be a break at the end that's
0:06:18when there's going to be sort of a
0:06:19natural bounce recap at the beginning
0:06:22it's not in the previous episode of The
0:06:24Lord of the Rings is going to be going
0:06:26to accept that they did just like in
0:06:28boardwalk empire they always start the
0:06:30depth and the episode with an old-timey
0:06:321920 song montage of like here's where
0:06:35we are right now here's what's going on
0:06:36in Chicago and here's what's going on in
0:06:38New York City
0:06:39ok i remember that's the Rothstein guy
0:06:41he's going to he's going to try to get
0:06:43into the heroin business good about that
0:06:45and I'm situated and nowhere
0:06:46where I am it is even when you're
0:06:48sitting at home and you're trying to get
0:06:50through these movies there's like oh
0:06:52another really really dark place filled
0:06:55with really grimy looking people who are
0:06:57turning on each other
0:06:59okay well only way through it is through
0:07:03it let's do it
0:07:04I i did see all the movies in the
0:07:05theater first I I just it'sit's set
0:07:10there's such as a mental marathon isn't
0:07:13it because I i never i have the exact
0:07:15same problem when i read the books as a
0:07:17kid I read the hobbit love the hobbit
0:07:19and so the next thing is oh my god I'm
0:07:21gonna get this three-volume slipcase
0:07:22version of this either the the next move
0:07:25the books in the series and I think I
0:07:27got most of the way through the first
0:07:29one and it's like it's like in many
0:07:32cases it's like walking through thick
0:07:34mud you can do it but after you kill
0:07:36your initial momentum
0:07:38it's just lift the leg move it forward
0:07:40planted down lift the other leg move it
0:07:42forward planted down and I just never
0:07:45got that sort of momentum going in the
0:07:46books and with the movies
0:07:48it's kind of the same way we're just my
0:07:50brain cannot keep track of all these
0:07:52things that are going on and why who has
0:07:55the football in the in this movie who
0:07:56had is it supposedly about just the ring
0:07:59that has to get back and you gotta slam
0:08:00dunk it into the into the volcano the
0:08:03lava but why are we seeing these other
0:08:06things and who what's what what pieces
0:08:08are being subtle and fitting together i
0:08:10did enjoy it but man I really you really
0:08:13have to focus and work on this to keep
0:08:15the brain moving to make sure you can
0:08:17follow these things that's what I was a
0:08:18little bit tough for me for there's a
0:08:20lot going on here and I i want to see
0:08:22how everybody else is also viewed these
0:08:24i'll say that I do wonder if you
0:08:28mentioned Andy the idea of a if this was
0:08:30an HBO series instead of a a bunch of
0:08:33long movies i don't know i was on the
0:08:37theater the first time since then only
0:08:38on video only the extended edition and
0:08:41we do the extended edition the movies
0:08:44are so long that they're broken up
0:08:45across discs so there are six discs for
0:08:48all of lord of the rings and for the
0:08:52first time this year my my kids watch
0:08:53with us but previously my wife and I
0:08:55would watch it
0:08:56not necessarily every year at the end of
0:08:58the year during the holidays but almost
0:09:00just almost and we watching across six
0:09:02nights which i like to call Hobbit
0:09:04Hanukkah 266 night celebration and you
0:09:08know what
0:09:09in six hour and a half ish installments
0:09:13it I it really works for me I I it's
0:09:16enough but not so much that I feel like
0:09:20it's slog and if i watch them over the
0:09:22course of six nights or seven or eight
0:09:24nights but not one a week or something
0:09:27like that I can keep the story straight
0:09:29and I know where we were when we left
0:09:30off and it works it's the only movie
0:09:34that I do like that but it
0:09:36I don't think I could bear to watch it
0:09:39in one sitting but as a miniseries
0:09:41essentially a six-night miniseries I it
0:09:44it works for me i would ask dan and and
0:09:47John but there are you know what they're
0:09:49viewing methodology was Fitz crazy crazy
0:09:54work Dan well the first time I saw them
0:09:57each in the amphitheater and before the
0:09:59return of the king theatrical showing at
0:10:01the time I was working in IT so I
0:10:04borrowed a projector from work and we
0:10:06marathons the first two before going to
0:10:09an evening showing of return of the king
0:10:11and in between then i think maybe I've
0:10:14seen the extended editions once in the
0:10:16interviewing almost I guess decade now
0:10:19yeah so this was the first time I'd
0:10:21watch them in a really long time and
0:10:23watch them all on different nights so
0:10:26split them up one movie / night over
0:10:29three nights but it was over the course
0:10:30of a couple I we watched the first two
0:10:31pretty close together and then the third
0:10:33one I kept having to put off due to
0:10:35scheduling stuff but just just finished
0:10:38it before right before this podcast
0:10:39started recording remember did some
0:10:42theater show like I think in seattle
0:10:45someone showed me cinerama the great
0:10:48restored theater like the entire
0:10:50extended thing as a one-day deal with
0:10:53breaks like I don't know what you paid
0:10:55for to see it but like the entire thing
0:10:56in one you know 12 hour session when I
0:10:59would that wouldn't surprise me I mean I
0:11:00feel like there's plenty of places that
0:11:02would that would likely do something
0:11:03like that yeah I can't even imagine what
0:11:06the young people do that people do the
0:11:07they did that for the dark knight right
0:11:10where they did the dated batman begins
0:11:11and dark knight returns and dark knight
0:11:12rises in a
0:11:13one day i just-i can't-- that's a lot
0:11:16that day
0:11:17that's good horse or cow yeah yeah I'm
0:11:20sure does
0:11:21John what about you what's your viewing
0:11:23method for this for this thing but I saw
0:11:25them originally in the theater you know
0:11:27when they're right first run and I have
0:11:29the extended DVDs which I watched once i
0:11:32believe and then I had the extended blu
0:11:34rays which I've now watch once I cheated
0:11:35as I usually do by using my children
0:11:37because i had showed them the
0:11:40rankin/bass a hobbit cartoon because I
0:11:44figured it wasn't too scary
0:11:45sure I'm just you know just to get them
0:11:47into I i have that i have a certain
0:11:49fondness for that carter and i will say
0:11:50that the only thing I remember about
0:11:52that entire thing is is is that the one
0:11:55with the song they're all with the side
0:11:57is the photo of the nine fingers had the
0:12:02ring of do that's better that's
0:12:05backsheet that's the lord of the rings
0:12:07one sometime Republican all right over
0:12:09the ranked battles are brutal
0:12:11alright okay we blown our photo of the
0:12:13nine fingers way too early then I didn't
0:12:15show the ones with the road scoping the
0:12:16creepy room scooping up but yes I
0:12:18shouldn't have to get them into it and
0:12:20then I tried showing my son fellowship a
0:12:23while back but it was the once the race
0:12:25came on so it's two squares as many
0:12:27years ago so that I try to get now it's
0:12:29bluray and he liked it and so I watch
0:12:31all then with him and it was broken up
0:12:33by his bedtime basically because we
0:12:35would watch and then you have to go to
0:12:36bed and then the next day we watch a
0:12:38little more than you have to go to bed
0:12:39and I don't know how many days it took
0:12:40us because we weren't even completing
0:12:42like old disks or have to school just
0:12:43like a little bit of time between well
0:12:45that's like a hobbit ramadan it just
0:12:48lets it out it went on many many days
0:12:50but at a certain but he really wanted to
0:12:52know how the story ended so he was
0:12:54always like we got can watch more that
0:12:56could watch for that movie and he had no
0:12:57conception over like how many movies it
0:13:00was or how many discs to eat he thought
0:13:01it was just one big long movie I told
0:13:03know it's like six discs like oh alright
0:13:05well as the more can watch more so he
0:13:08found engage anyway that's how i watch
0:13:09it the third time I guess so
0:13:11in the theater once and then DVD and
0:13:13blu-ray blu-ray installment plan with
0:13:16your son never enough and that and that
0:13:18really does make it more enjoyable you
0:13:20know you're watching with somebody who
0:13:21actually did the hard ends right and it
0:13:23yeah engage all got so watching with
0:13:25with my kids this time
0:13:27uh they well they like when when gandalf
0:13:32plunges off the off the bridge
0:13:34yes it was very very unexpected to if
0:13:36they're yes they're quite upset and I'm
0:13:38I'm sorry bro this is great I've i'm
0:13:40watching it work right i'm watching I'm
0:13:42watching their that you know because
0:13:44they thought that was it for him
0:13:45apple Sam again yeah that's well that's
0:13:47that's really powerful i mean i remember
0:13:49i do recall i actually did watch
0:13:50fellowship of the ring with a my cousins
0:13:52and their daughters who are kind of you
0:13:54know probably around 10 or 11 at the
0:13:56time and I remember their visceral
0:14:00reaction at the end of fellowship when
0:14:01Boromir gets shot which is a great scene
0:14:04is really dramatically and they were
0:14:05like physically like you know shock yes
0:14:08they were twitching like oh my god you
0:14:10know because they did it does do a good
0:14:12job of building those you know it does a
0:14:15good job of painting those characters
0:14:16and they feel you know they really like
0:14:18them i think yeah although my kids said
0:14:20that they they didn't like Boromir say
0:14:23they totally be totally pick up on him
0:14:25the bag him being portrayed as being not
0:14:28that great a guy but they said they
0:14:29didn't like him until he died then they
0:14:31like too many felt bad for him right he
0:14:33could easily read yeah i mean that's
0:14:34exactly what they're going to realize
0:14:35your vagina fascinating to see it work
0:14:38right now I definitely watch the Machine
0:14:40return and watch my kids take that
0:14:42journey and get to the point where
0:14:43they're like oh I never liked him and I
0:14:45feel sad that he's dead yeah it's nice
0:14:46because as adults I feel like we're all
0:14:48kind of jaded oh yeah you know
0:14:50especially for most of us you read these
0:14:51stories as kids and then saw the movies
0:14:54come out and so it's nice to be its
0:14:56being able to see it through fresh eyes
0:14:57is kind of it's a nice touch but there's
0:15:00a worthwhile point to make here too is
0:15:02that the difference
0:15:02I mean you know there's obviously always
0:15:04differences between the book and movie
0:15:05and plot and not that part but in the
0:15:08book Boromir does not appear that much
0:15:10in the movie he's always on screen so
0:15:12he's always glowering looking fingering
0:15:15his sword thinking ring like Assange is
0:15:18Charlene is just so damn good-looking
0:15:20but in the books you know you really go
0:15:22for page at a time which border has no
0:15:24part except to defend the hobbits are
0:15:26run down a hallway
0:15:27more like boring mirror haha burn but
0:15:32there is that point that that it went
0:15:34when you have to visually portray nine
0:15:36people together for this long period of
0:15:38time
0:15:39it's a different experience reading a
0:15:40book
0:15:40in which that person is not somebody
0:15:41born here comes across as much means
0:15:44played as more scheming and and
0:15:47malleable and weak in the book in the
0:15:49movie than the book as well but I think
0:15:51we just see them all the time they have
0:15:53to have something that is business but
0:15:55the problem with that is that we sit in
0:15:57the context of a book almost anything is
0:16:00possible because there's so much variety
0:16:02and how book is plotted how characters
0:16:04are taken from the start to the ending
0:16:05in a movie
0:16:07there's almost everything falls into a
0:16:09very common trope and again i'm saying
0:16:12outright the the said earlier that i had
0:16:14not read the the the trilogy books only
0:16:17read the hobbit from start to finish and
0:16:19I'd sort of football Boromir into okay
0:16:22so they're setting him up as the guy
0:16:25that's gonna cause trouble for the party
0:16:27that's gonna be the constant danger but
0:16:29there's going to be a redeeming moment
0:16:30and probably he's gonna die to add to
0:16:32illustrate to the audience how high the
0:16:35stakes were for the whole thing and it
0:16:37wasn't because i think that the the
0:16:38books are poorly written and I think it
0:16:40was because this is how i parse a movie
0:16:43there's a point which you drop that
0:16:44penny and I can I can't help but hear it
0:16:47will bring against the tiles you know
0:16:48there's a textual shorthand you know
0:16:51there's a narrative shorthand that we've
0:16:53all become accustomed to because we all
0:16:54see how the machinery works so yeah i
0:16:58mean i agree i mean i think there is a
0:16:59there's a certain amount of
0:17:00predictability to that but again you
0:17:02know different seen through are jaded
0:17:05eyes than seen through the eyes of
0:17:06someone who is not as familiar with the
0:17:08that formulaic progression sure line and
0:17:10talking I mean so much so much fantasy
0:17:13is has come from talking that it's hard
0:17:18it's like you know it's what any of
0:17:19these things where somebody does
0:17:21something really innovative but from the
0:17:23perspective of 50 years later it doesn't
0:17:25appear very innovative it's because
0:17:27everybody copied it it was so innovative
0:17:29so amazing and then in hindsight it
0:17:31looks like it's just one of the pack
0:17:33when but no no it was first and and with
0:17:35that you know we've got the the plot
0:17:38mechanisms here and a lot of the
0:17:39trappings of this world are things that
0:17:42we know if we've seen a lot of movies
0:17:44and read a lot of books especially
0:17:46fantasy books and i was struck in in
0:17:49watching with my kids that with off with
0:17:52a fresh pair of eyes I mean they were
0:17:54kind of enthralled and they have they
0:17:55haven't seen a lot of stories like this
0:17:57and they you know it it was impossible
0:18:01for me to watch this movie even the
0:18:03first time without thinking of the books
0:18:06at least I I another aspect that I'd
0:18:08like to get into is people's
0:18:10relationships with the with the source
0:18:12material because for a lot of people
0:18:14the books are something that you read a
0:18:16lot i think john has read it multiple
0:18:18times on very small electronic devices
0:18:21is true and for some people it say that
0:18:24you know the books are an incredible
0:18:25part of their their childhood memories
0:18:27are adolescent memories i bought the
0:18:29book the version I've got in my hand
0:18:31right now in two thousand when i was in
0:18:33london and i read it in two thousand and
0:18:37I've never read it before so I didn't
0:18:39read until I was 30 years old and and as
0:18:42a result might my view of the movies is
0:18:45very different i think from somebody who
0:18:46grew up with these stories and really
0:18:48knew the whole the whole story going in
0:18:50and then somebody else might have not
0:18:52read it all and have a like Andy and
0:18:54have a completely different perspective
0:18:55too so there's so many different ways
0:18:56you can come at at a work like this and
0:19:00in so you know John Dean you know you
0:19:03have that you have a pretty close
0:19:04relationship with it with the source
0:19:06material is that how does that an impact
0:19:08how you view these movies now let's
0:19:10think about that when I was watching
0:19:11them again the fact that although i've
0:19:14read Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
0:19:16multiple times every 3-4 times the last
0:19:20time i read them was probably right
0:19:22before the fellowship came out that i
0:19:25read through them like one last time
0:19:26before the movie came out right and so I
0:19:28haven't read the books and so long since
0:19:30since reading the books I've now seen
0:19:31the movies three or four times and a lot
0:19:33of like you know up the movies are
0:19:36starting to I start to think did that
0:19:39happen in the movie or did that happen
0:19:40in the book you know which parts did
0:19:42they change from the book or which part
0:19:43is that you know and I get them mixed up
0:19:45in my head because I'm old right but
0:19:47still when i watch the the movies
0:19:50it's a situation with the movies in the
0:19:52books
0:19:53despite me not remembering what what
0:19:55events changed where what was made up by
0:19:57you know the the writers of the movies
0:19:59not when I pictured in my head there to
0:20:03almost entirely different things I just
0:20:05I see nothing of the movies
0:20:07and thinking about the books and vice
0:20:09versa and but you know like in terms
0:20:11like what does the world look like what
0:20:13do you picture in your head when you're
0:20:14reading the book i did not picture
0:20:15anything from the movies
0:20:17despite the fact that you know that the
0:20:19movies are out there and the other thing
0:20:20is when watching the movies even now
0:20:22even super duper long extended editions
0:20:24and also the sister of the hobbit as
0:20:26well just saw the first movie of it may
0:20:28seem to me like this big long story and
0:20:32we're going to dip the camera into the
0:20:34story for like 30 seconds and then pull
0:20:36it out and then we're going to dip it in
0:20:37and we're gonna pull it out totally
0:20:39disjointed but as someone who's read the
0:20:43book so much like all right well that's
0:20:45fine because I know everything that
0:20:46comes between but they just they just
0:20:49seem that way it seems like it really
0:20:51seems like just dipping a movie camera
0:20:52into this gigantic river and you're like
0:20:54oh yeah I remember that part and then
0:20:56you're like okay about all you remember
0:20:57that part
0:20:58yeah our that wasn't really in the books
0:21:00i don't think but anyway I see what
0:21:01you're getting at and it just doesn't it
0:21:03doesn't feel like a cohesive whole
0:21:05but it doesn't make me just like the
0:21:07movies because i know all the parts that
0:21:08are in the middle as i know the stuff
0:21:09you don't mean and and it's like
0:21:11highlight yes I've always wanted must be
0:21:13inaccessible to people who haven't read
0:21:15the book I've worried what I've seen
0:21:16some of the time like this
0:21:18can't make any sense the sequence of
0:21:20things that just happened
0:21:21they just have to take it on faith or
0:21:23ignore all the gaps there because it
0:21:25doesn't make any sense
0:21:26I mean watching again it's really
0:21:27obvious your stuff that makes well
0:21:29there's a there's a logic to it if
0:21:30you've seen you know if you're familiar
0:21:32with the genre I feel like you're
0:21:34everything about fantasy is john r you
0:21:36can wave your hands over a lot of it and
0:21:38be like yeah you know magic or whatever
0:21:40you know there is a certain logic to it
0:21:42but i agree that it is as but you know
0:21:44someone coming over
0:21:45yeah you know it's amazing that these
0:21:47became a blockbuster mainstream hits
0:21:49given how this preposterous it seemed
0:21:52and talking it's like when someone shuts
0:21:54out like you know you know you are one
0:21:56of the race of númenor the other person
0:21:57says yes I am and it's like oh ok then
0:22:00let me know that's not even that is
0:22:02sometimes that's not explain that much
0:22:03in the book because they have appendices
0:22:04and some early and I was on a study but
0:22:06it's just it like it doesn't feel like
0:22:09they narrative leaf it together the way
0:22:11you would write scene scene scene like
0:22:13this see naturally is to the next thing
0:22:14that doesn't actually need to this is
0:22:16like 600 pages you just like you know
0:22:18there are you know the 50-page gap that
0:22:20you pulled out there and
0:22:21the way they have to be interleaved in
0:22:22the book versus the way they're done in
0:22:24the movies is very very different
0:22:25because of the meeting which is fine but
0:22:27it's just the movies net the movies
0:22:28always feel like here are some
0:22:30highlights from book that you liked
0:22:31yeah except i've only read the book once
0:22:33and my wife has never read the book and
0:22:36as a game of thrones basis i'm not going
0:22:38to read these books so we're just gonna
0:22:39watch it and she has watched it with me
0:22:42multiple times and enjoyed it
0:22:44uh oh yeah all those times and the only
0:22:47thing that bothered her was not the not
0:22:49the plot because I think I think
0:22:51honestly you there are some amazing
0:22:54shortcuts that the that the brain takes
0:22:57where you're like watching a movie and
0:22:58you say alright okay thats you know I
0:23:00apparently he is not going to get old
0:23:03very fast right music nor it's a thing
0:23:06whatever he's a ranger when you just
0:23:07like okay and and if you read the book
0:23:09you might be like oh well that has all
0:23:11this meeting but if you don't you just
0:23:13go get all right fine and you end it
0:23:15that hasn't bothered her in fact I would
0:23:16say as with Game of Thrones the thing
0:23:21that gets my wife when she's watching
0:23:23these movies is is things like it's
0:23:25differentiating characters like which
0:23:27which guy is that because as are our
0:23:30mutual friend philip Michaels often has
0:23:32said uh and and Lisa Schmeisser what we
0:23:35really got here is Alfie dwarfee beardy
0:23:38a cloak like cloak guy everybody when
0:23:43you had the too many pretty men with
0:23:44long hair yeah that aragorn Boromir
0:23:46Pharaoh you're 80 more you know i can
0:23:50say all start to look they've all got
0:23:52stubble and beard
0:23:53this is a problem with thousand-page
0:23:55books that it is just a minute you can't
0:23:57have that make their characters but even
0:23:59in the fellowship with all white guys
0:24:01yeah which is that guy
0:24:02which one is that because it was so
0:24:03there's the elf guy and the dwarf guy
0:24:05and then there's that there's a little
0:24:07hobbitses and then there's the two kind
0:24:09of or are madly guy with with a but
0:24:12there's the one with the beard the one
0:24:13who just sort of hasn't shaved very much
0:24:15right poorly shaved yea once again at
0:24:17once again to roll him that's when I
0:24:18think most casual people start to lose
0:24:20track this like all right I had to
0:24:21fellowship down they were all kinda
0:24:23together a day they were different
0:24:24heights but now just throw hand they're
0:24:26all just a bunch of scruffy horse yeah
0:24:27who's this horse guy
0:24:28well in the row has seen it seems like
0:24:30there's people are going to be important
0:24:32later who are
0:24:32not the introduce them and give them the
0:24:34screen time as if they will be nao and
0:24:37is kind of like hanging around you like
0:24:38why did you keep going back to here and
0:24:40just keep watching
0:24:41she's the only interesting female
0:24:43character in the story that's probably
0:24:45one of the reasons they keep going back
0:24:46to her and she's not that interesting
0:24:48the extended edition i think what you
0:24:50doin is much more interesting and I
0:24:52think that whole part of the plot is
0:24:54more interesting in the extended edition
0:24:55two more interesting but I I don't know
0:24:57if necessarily i would say interesting I
0:24:59or was funny i think she's one of the
0:25:01best centers of the two towers i think
0:25:03but the books are the movies in the
0:25:05movie but it's anybody's anybody really
0:25:08going to dip into the extended edition
0:25:09for that reason though I think the
0:25:10people the people who can you can
0:25:12instinctively understand the plot of
0:25:13people who are already really in
0:25:15familiar invested with it and they're
0:25:17kinda hungry to look at those chapters
0:25:19that weren't that didn't make it into
0:25:20part of the theatrical release that's
0:25:22right recipe recipe you got confused to
0:25:24begin with I'm not gonna dress ga nai
0:25:27again maybe maybe another half an hour
0:25:29to really clear this up for me if only
0:25:31this for longer it would be clear
0:25:33exactly what my problem was it was it
0:25:35was a lot like it was a lot like
0:25:37heaven's gate of you guys ever seen
0:25:39Heaven's Gate Michael Cimino movie like
0:25:401978 legendary movie that judgment
0:25:44legendary disaster movie actually
0:25:45brought down Universal Media you in the
0:25:48united artists and but not to get the
0:25:50whole thing but the there's a
0:25:52two-and-a-half-hour version that doesn't
0:25:53make sense because it seems as though
0:25:56they're like scenes from three different
0:25:58movies going on side by side by side and
0:26:01you never know well what is the
0:26:02beginning middle and end of this what
0:26:04was the what character we supposed to be
0:26:06following and what goal is suppose being
0:26:08being made and then I I didn't get that
0:26:11I didn't really understand that so I
0:26:13sought out being by on get on video the
0:26:15three-and-a-half-hour directors cut
0:26:17originally permitted film festival and
0:26:19it's only a longer version of 45
0:26:21different movies that are sort of cut
0:26:23together and that's AII didn't I I'll
0:26:25say again I didn't I did enjoy lord of
0:26:27the rings but I got in there thinking
0:26:30that ok this is a movie about a ring of
0:26:32consummate evil that has to be brought
0:26:34back to its source and destroyed or else
0:26:36it's going to call basically ruined
0:26:38everything but that by the time you're
0:26:41in like our two of this 9r movie it
0:26:42feels like know they're telling six
0:26:45different stories of what
0:26:46the story of this good when the movies
0:26:48not over when the ring gets destroyed
0:26:50it's also the story about the elves that
0:26:52may be sticking around but may not be
0:26:54sticking around and it's also the story
0:26:56of power wise itself guy got it in let
0:27:00the elf woman in love with the the
0:27:02romance novel covers sword guy and it
0:27:05just seems as though they just it's a
0:27:07it's a multi-purpose massively
0:27:09multiplayer multiplayer online game in
0:27:12which you can sort of like follow
0:27:13different friends as they both forgot
0:27:14know that I'm gonna play the game in
0:27:16which we try to drink the woman in the
0:27:18chainmail under the table
0:27:19I'm gonna do the one where I tried to
0:27:20level up and finally fight the dragon
0:27:22it's fun but it's like Oh kinda really
0:27:25wish there was a through-line one
0:27:27through lines the entire thing
0:27:28this stuff is in the book though in the
0:27:30end I i think that's one of the one of
0:27:33the the issues here I actually think
0:27:34that the extended editions add a lot of
0:27:36good material and that there's other
0:27:38stuff and in the theatrical additions
0:27:41that uh is not as interesting as some of
0:27:44the stuff that's added by the extended i
0:27:45would i would sort of recommend that
0:27:47anybody who's interested watch the
0:27:48extended edition but the but the
0:27:50faithful adaptation i wanted to mention
0:27:52John mentioned you know you're dipping
0:27:54into scenes from this really long book
0:27:56and even at ten hours you can't really
0:27:59adapter 12 hours or 80 hours or however
0:28:01long it is you can't really adapt a
0:28:03thousand-page book and sometimes i think
0:28:05that uh and and I know now that we know
0:28:08that that an even shorter book is being
0:28:11made into three movies by Peter Jackson
0:28:12it makes it even more difficult to to to
0:28:14think about this but not all the bottom
0:28:16there's a whole other series of
0:28:18thousands of podcast so much so my point
0:28:21is you know it's great that they wanted
0:28:25to honor this very important book that
0:28:27meant so much to them by doing a
0:28:29faithful adaptation but there's a lot of
0:28:31stuff in here that that I just look at
0:28:33and think why is this in this movie and
0:28:34I and I'm saying is somebody who likes
0:28:36these movies and watch them a lot i'm
0:28:38struck every time I but I watch them by
0:28:39the things that the things that appeal
0:28:42to me there are certain things that
0:28:43appeal to me and then there are other
0:28:44whole thing's was like why is this here
0:28:47and there's the whole you know yes the
0:28:49elves leaving is important for the plot
0:28:51and yet it's very strange and it's not
0:28:53explained very well and then should be a
0:28:55big Dan and the with a romance this
0:28:57weird abortive road
0:28:59dance between aon and Aragorn and then
0:29:03at the end they like together together
0:29:04with fair mirror so that there's a happy
0:29:06and like yeah ending and it's so poorly
0:29:09handled and when is it an interesting
0:29:11character and the the it you know to
0:29:15cleanse point that's true but you know
0:29:18there's so much of this planet in the
0:29:20hole left Tyler thing which you know
0:29:22that's a character that's kind of blown
0:29:23up in order to have more of women
0:29:26characters in the book which is
0:29:27admirable except that you know she isn't
0:29:30that interesting and if you're seeing
0:29:31these movies in the theater
0:29:33she is your cue to go to the bathroom
0:29:34haha she's great she's great in her
0:29:37first five minutes of her appearance and
0:29:39then after that that's it unfortunately
0:29:41she has to play a lot of woe is me
0:29:43yeah that's part of my the inexplicable
0:29:44part two is we were talking about the
0:29:46books when i mean i think i've read over
0:29:48the books when I was in a teenager and I
0:29:50may have read them for them at least 10
0:29:53times maybe more
0:29:54wow they're great i think they're part
0:29:56of my you know they're part of my
0:29:58errands i'm i'm a language family so you
0:30:00and John are in the I've read these
0:30:02books over and over and over again camp
0:30:04yeah and I've read The Silmarillion I've
0:30:05read the you know some of the other
0:30:07books i'm in the middle of you guys
0:30:08apparently i read fellowship in fifth
0:30:11grade for the first time I think I I
0:30:13pretty quickly went through three of
0:30:15them didn't read reread them until right
0:30:18before like John right before the movies
0:30:19came out and as is you know my team I
0:30:22notoriously poor memory I can't remember
0:30:25them at all before the movies came out I
0:30:28i love the idea and i love the fact that
0:30:29this you know he does create this world
0:30:31that's that's fascinating it and iconic
0:30:34right you know because so much has
0:30:35borrowed from from Lord of the Rings
0:30:37that said find the books kind of
0:30:39ponderous what ya get through and that's
0:30:41for me like yeah I read is he at a young
0:30:43age but the same time it was more of a
0:30:46it was like reading a historical
0:30:47document and at times literally like
0:30:49reading a historical document or the
0:30:51silmarillion and like 730 that's like
0:30:53you're reading research at that point
0:30:55it's like it's really a history book of
0:30:57the things that never happened didn't
0:30:58know it's it's like talking to the only
0:31:02person who wrote his own fanfic that's
0:31:03what hahahaha talkin was a you know
0:31:07flawless jist as it is a professor is a
0:31:09professor in it we know these were
0:31:11written
0:31:11in CS Lewis had a bet and they were
0:31:14gonna both write science fiction novels
0:31:16and I think they're both the right
0:31:17fantasy as well and you know that is
0:31:19where out of that would LOL ron Hubbard
0:31:21that's I know what you think nothing
0:31:23part of the grand we all lost they were
0:31:26lonely man oh come on you getting aren't
0:31:27you get the seven Narnia books from that
0:31:29and you get the silent planet Cyril and
0:31:32Ray Allen very deeply flawed but very
0:31:34interesting books very different than
0:31:36most sense for me I i have fonder
0:31:38memories of narnia and maybe that's
0:31:40because I read the more softer it's
0:31:42easier to close your category this is so
0:31:44what does this say is that I you know
0:31:45one of the reasons i like the book says
0:31:47yes they're dense and parts i think the
0:31:48Fellowship of all three of the books is
0:31:51among the most approachable most
0:31:52interesting because it devolves into
0:31:54walking in battles and you know the
0:31:57giant spiders but the the language is
0:31:59what got me that's why the silmarillion
0:32:01was interesting to me the appendices as
0:32:03I was I never I don't think I was ever
0:32:05on track to become like a you know a
0:32:07full ology major whatever that major be
0:32:09linguistics or language but I language
0:32:12is wonderful i think we can all agree
0:32:13that Tolkien wrote the best the road the
0:32:16best dnd sourcebook haha
0:32:18everybody's best dependencies definitive
0:32:21well he brought the sourcebook for like
0:32:23all high fantasy of the 20th century but
0:32:25that's right i mean and it's always
0:32:27funny to me as someone who has played
0:32:29played a lot of dnd as a kid and more
0:32:31recently that I always look at the wait
0:32:34but there's a wizard he's got a staff
0:32:35and a sword Wizards have stories like
0:32:38this it's you know the the impact that
0:32:40he's had spread so far and led to these
0:32:42other worlds and crew you know these
0:32:44rules of fantasy right that it's funny
0:32:47then go back to the original you know
0:32:49the source of so much of this and
0:32:50realize yeah he wasn't strict about some
0:32:52of these things as all the people later
0:32:54who really wanted to construct rules and
0:32:56logic for all these fantasy magic
0:32:59systems and all that you know he played
0:33:01a little more loosey-goosey and it was
0:33:03you did you say it was he was on
0:33:04fanfiction who get that was and I think
0:33:06that's never thought about it that way
0:33:07before but it was true he developed the
0:33:10languages and they needed to have a
0:33:11culture that with them so he wrote book
0:33:13yeah you know that that's I think you're
0:33:15you got it exactly right and you can
0:33:17also try to retail in he wanted to give
0:33:19England a mythic past yes that of its
0:33:22own didn't have its own and this is
0:33:23essentially a you know it is
0:33:25England is middle-earth Manicaland and
0:33:27it's sort of somewhere between like that
0:33:29you know the the Danes and the vikings
0:33:31and waves of invasion whatever it and
0:33:33it's an allegory for the I mean it's
0:33:35also an allegory for the world wars you
0:33:37know how the same time I know he is
0:33:39where he claimed that they were and they
0:33:41so clearly are but he wrote a lot of war
0:33:43of the rings before World War two
0:33:44what's the right but he fought in world
0:33:46war one yeah you know that clearly
0:33:48impacts how he feels about this i mean
0:33:49i'd lost today in particular watching
0:33:52return the king at the very you know as
0:33:54you get towards the end photo since
0:33:55they're going like how do you pick up
0:33:56your old life like that to me is like
0:33:58that's a veteran coming back from war
0:34:00right you know
0:34:01and clearly i read a little bit of his
0:34:03bio well I was sitting there watching
0:34:05the movie and about you know he was
0:34:06convalescent you know injured and all
0:34:08that in hospitals in school you know I
0:34:10think it's impossible for him to have
0:34:12written that without that experience in
0:34:13forming it and then you look at the
0:34:15world war two parallels and even if it's
0:34:17not directly intended you know to be so
0:34:20it it comes across very strongly
0:34:22yeah it's it's a it's very clear right
0:34:25down to America saving the day is
0:34:28America get off
0:34:30no it's the Eagles do become a bald
0:34:32eagle swooping how could you read any
0:34:35more blatant the net if they wait to the
0:34:37last minute and then swooped in your
0:34:39right price wells in the heart of the
0:34:40American bear it's franklin roosevelt is
0:34:43riding on an eagle and he just swoops in
0:34:45kills i think i saw the stephen colbert
0:34:47a little too late because the story is
0:34:49really already already extended extended
0:34:51edition it is amusing that stephen
0:34:53colbert's and massive crazy Lord of the
0:34:55Rings fair yeah when viggo mortensen was
0:34:57on The Daily Show and before the colbert
0:35:00report it started and he brought
0:35:02apparently some incredible gift to
0:35:04Stephen Colbert and they cut to like an
0:35:06incentive Colbert reciting the entire
0:35:08history like the reading the appendices
0:35:10from memory
0:35:11he does tom bombadil when I interviews
0:35:13neil gaiman on the colbert report noted
0:35:15just on top of his head he's talking
0:35:17interview and he just does like the
0:35:19whole tom bombadil song its he is really
0:35:21is quite the fan
0:35:23what do you see so you saw the week when
0:35:24he had like almost the entire cast and
0:35:26jackson on the entire week know and
0:35:29that's what you get go you should know
0:35:31you have to see this because yet because
0:35:34again these are people who've been
0:35:35living in this universe like Pierre
0:35:36Jackson living in this universe for what
0:35:38ten years more than 10 years and yet
0:35:40like Peter tracks will say and then yeah
0:35:42there was the two and then well the
0:35:44thing is we had we had a problem finding
0:35:45the sword that I don't remember was that
0:35:48and then he then and then Colbert will
0:35:50talk about that will not only correct
0:35:52about the movie but also boasts talk for
0:35:54two minutes but oh you're talking about
0:35:56blog which was the sword was forged by
0:35:58the heart of his new realtor for Danny
0:36:01spoken exactly he's going like deep
0:36:03catalog and you can tell he's not just
0:36:05trying to do a bit
0:36:06it's like just like any really really
0:36:08wonderful in like nerd it's like he
0:36:09cannot stop but shares of excitement
0:36:11with the guy who directed this movie
0:36:13well Jackson is probably also you know
0:36:15he's he's got internalised to tone it
0:36:17down because he wants to reach a broader
0:36:19audience and he's simplifying everything
0:36:21and he's an old friend of mine and then
0:36:22Stephen Colbert is basically like no no
0:36:24don't simplify let's get into this is
0:36:27the thing that impressed me about that
0:36:29interview one of the interviews I saw
0:36:30those interviews and one of them they
0:36:33mentioned that when Stephen Colbert went
0:36:34down to New Zealand they were filming
0:36:36The Hobbit they had a token trivia
0:36:39contest with the quick their crew with
0:36:41the crew that was the movie and stephen
0:36:43colbert 10 and i don't think the people
0:36:45there were pulling their punches so
0:36:46that's not just that but i think i think
0:36:48one was actually one of the researchers
0:36:50that they have like that on set
0:36:52yeah it was like all biggest marriage in
0:36:54the movie the people speak fluent elvish
0:36:56are there i mean that's right there the
0:36:58elvish consultants who speak it in their
0:37:00spare time who finally found a purpose
0:37:01in life to be consultants on this movie
0:37:03and people to beat them fancy and I
0:37:05don't think they'd let him win because
0:37:06he's a celebrity those like the nerds
0:37:08who were there you know go to guys for
0:37:09book facts on the movie they wanted to
0:37:11beat him and they didn't so that gave
0:37:12him the most crabs little john's just
0:37:14like if they ask you to star wars trivia
0:37:16contest i'm not going to start you're
0:37:17the star wars trivia ringer ok then I'll
0:37:19do it
0:37:20top him tapping for John yeah yeah yeah
0:37:22we'll do a little tag team will be it
0:37:24was saying before that like the the
0:37:26extended editions like you know well you
0:37:28know if you're really into the books
0:37:29maybe like I'm adding that junk you
0:37:31don't need otherwise I found you really
0:37:33like the books and I found when I see
0:37:35the extended ones with the extra stuff
0:37:37in it i would expect the extra stop to
0:37:39say all I call these gaps in this big
0:37:41Swiss cheese and a movie that I'm seeing
0:37:42when they add the stuff and really still
0:37:44fill in some of those Swiss cheese holes
0:37:45and in some way somehow it just makes
0:37:48more holes like by adding more material
0:37:51I'm like it now
0:37:52it's breaking it up even more because
0:37:53there's a whole section is that you
0:37:55didn't want to even think about this it
0:37:56actually we're going to have one two and
0:37:57a half minutes seen about that you're
0:37:59like wait a second now you just opened
0:38:00an entire door here because all other
0:38:02thing that you're talking about it
0:38:04there's the extended scene in the
0:38:05tradition of the bit where aragorn is in
0:38:09the stables and one of the horses like
0:38:10all his rider has been lost he can't be
0:38:12tamed and he goes over and starts
0:38:14talking horse in elvish break or
0:38:16whatever his name is it calms down and
0:38:18then a woman has a scene with him and
0:38:20she realizes he is and I was like that
0:38:22was a great scene but you're right it's
0:38:23like wait a minute they can talk to
0:38:24horses
0:38:25there's a wide please sing the song
0:38:28about Baron everything and anything you
0:38:30know you don't know via lock two horses
0:38:32all the time they just don't talk back
0:38:34that's right also the guy who plays the
0:38:36horses great two guys one of the front
0:38:39one in the back
0:38:40spoilers they're both in the back I
0:38:42understand was a dog in motion capture
0:38:44suit if you want a relook at work you
0:38:46gotta get anybody get this one they're
0:38:47all andy serkis that's Michael you know
0:38:50this dog is like the Andy Serkis of dogs
0:38:52that hasn't been done yet it needs to be
0:38:54done
0:38:54that's great that doesn't it doesn't
0:38:55feel a little bit little like you get
0:38:57these drug addicts that they can
0:38:59initially like get high off of the only
0:39:01get a couple beers to get a buzz and oh
0:39:03my god they're out of control and then
0:39:05the more they drink the more they need
0:39:07more alcohol the more drugs need to
0:39:09consume to get that kind of high they're
0:39:11looking for you talking about I
0:39:12filmmakers no I'm talking about like
0:39:15I've been talking about fans they're
0:39:16like your fans okay you're talking
0:39:18earlier about how there are delicate we
0:39:21wanted to run double stupor no go ahead
0:39:23it it's mostly piping yeah but how you
0:39:26want how you as a fan you want to see
0:39:28them go deep catalog like that because
0:39:30that's the stuff you want to see and I
0:39:32think it in all kinds of different kinds
0:39:34of nerdom like a hitchhiker's guide
0:39:35movie I didn't want to see a linear to
0:39:38our version of like the first book I
0:39:41wanted to see them put as many details
0:39:43as possible from where i could think i
0:39:45could recognize as oh ok the little-seen
0:39:47that actually came from the radio series
0:39:49of it was series a later series because
0:39:51there because there's a there's a there
0:39:54are these two clones there a clone an
0:39:56anticyclone the way the complicated
0:39:57woman is called a little school the
0:39:59other one called was called win atilla
0:40:00and nobody knows nobody cares but this
0:40:03is the level at
0:40:04which I want to be entertained by a
0:40:06hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy movie
0:40:08and this is the equivalent of I just
0:40:10need to go to the liquor store get
0:40:12whatever is really really cheap and
0:40:14high-end content and drink five gallons
0:40:16of it before I can face by day that's
0:40:18how deeply I've got into this rabbit
0:40:21hole of fandom on this thing you know I
0:40:24I don't I I just don't feel like the
0:40:26added material and granted I've only
0:40:27seen the originals the one time in the
0:40:29theater so I haven't done a an in-depth
0:40:31look but they're marked the scenes that
0:40:33are added extended are marked in the DVD
0:40:36liner notes and you know to me it felt
0:40:38like they had a lot of interesting quiet
0:40:41character scenes and scenes about things
0:40:44that that were not either they they cut
0:40:47out because they needed to have the plot
0:40:49have its arc for the version that all
0:40:52along was short enough to be shown it in
0:40:54a movie theater it's the types of many
0:40:56more icebergs and I'm that's night right
0:40:59but but it adds a richness to me and as
0:41:01somebody who hasn't you read the book
0:41:03once and does not consider myself a Lord
0:41:05of the Rings fan by any stretch of the
0:41:07imagination to me i prefer those
0:41:09additions because i like dipping into
0:41:11the those things i like those quiet
0:41:13moments and and that richness that adds
0:41:15to it in a way that a in my mind makes
0:41:18them better movies it also turns it from
0:41:20being a series of really long movies
0:41:22into like I said into almost like a
0:41:23miniseries and it may just be that it
0:41:26plays better for me and it works for me
0:41:28in that scenario but some of the stuff
0:41:30that they added you know in in an even
0:41:31fellowship of the ring
0:41:33there's some quiet there's some hot
0:41:34extra hot stuff and then there's some
0:41:36some choir moments later on when they
0:41:39when they get to to Rivendell and it you
0:41:43know it's i'm not i'm not sitting there
0:41:44going oh
0:41:45finally I get the name of that that
0:41:47thing in elvish it's it's not that it's
0:41:49more like i like i like seeing a little
0:41:50bit more of this world as part of my
0:41:52eleventh hour journey you know the thing
0:41:54that got me though is for all that with
0:41:55the extended edition in the main film
0:41:57there are some significant emissions to
0:41:59the scouring of the shower is where the
0:42:01most powerful parts of lord of the rings
0:42:02because it brings everything home it
0:42:04brings it to earth
0:42:05it's the end of the tail i know there
0:42:07are so many endings the movies it's true
0:42:09in the book as well I demand one more
0:42:12and that's the death of Saruman is
0:42:14have cast away in the books in the movie
0:42:16star marks or dies it's the Saruman
0:42:18scene is even not i think played nearly
0:42:20as well that's a very cinematic scene in
0:42:22the book and that played as well the
0:42:24scouring the shower is very cinematic I
0:42:26think critical in many ways to the
0:42:28conclusion of the book and what happens
0:42:30then taking back their own lives
0:42:32changing identity and it submitted
0:42:34yeah it's just you know you're like they
0:42:35go home and sit in the bar like this
0:42:37romantic like all come all talk and tom
0:42:40bombadil who by the way is it i think is
0:42:43one of the worst things in the book and
0:42:44so I was happy that they took that part
0:42:45out but I love Tom Bombadil you will see
0:42:48a bunch of you who said so far that you
0:42:50don't like long things you didn't like
0:42:52the long book and he thought it was like
0:42:53slogging through mud the movies that you
0:42:55alone I like the long book I read all
0:42:57thousand pages roger ebert said the most
0:43:00perfect thing possible that no-good
0:43:02movie is long enough no bad movie
0:43:04shorten the length is we could do with
0:43:06it but you said his head be it like the
0:43:08reading the books was like a slogging
0:43:10through mud knows it
0:43:11I i guess i get along it's because
0:43:13they're slow I know but I'm not
0:43:15successfully since it's the disc the
0:43:17density i know i can relate to that i
0:43:20can tell you that in the books I see it
0:43:21and I mean I despite the fact that I
0:43:23don't read very quickly lot most of my
0:43:25favorite books are more than a thousand
0:43:27pages and there's something about just
0:43:29the length in and of itself like the
0:43:31fact that it's slow pace that it's
0:43:32boring that it's like a lot like that
0:43:35the experience of reading Lord of the
0:43:36Rings has that feeling to me of like I
0:43:39want it to be just long and leisurely in
0:43:42casual and why is that not boring what's
0:43:44the line between long and lean casual
0:43:46and detailed and and mind-numbingly
0:43:48boring i don't know i don't know why
0:43:50what causes it to cross the line but
0:43:51that's how Lord of the Rings feels to me
0:43:53as I want it to be just a very long
0:43:55thing with lots of details that takes
0:43:57its time with you want to be rich and
0:43:59interesting well even though I said that
0:44:01like they were there adding it you know
0:44:03that the scenes in movies didn't make it
0:44:05Marco here and just made more holes if
0:44:07given the choice of which 1i wanna watch
0:44:09I wanna watch the extended because of
0:44:10the very least what they do is add a
0:44:12little tiny tiny bit of that feeling
0:44:14from the books then some Down long very
0:44:17long sort of you know it's taking its
0:44:19time getting where it's going it's not
0:44:20in a rush is not trying to be a
0:44:22three-act play it's like 9,000 discs
0:44:24yes you know haha
0:44:27that's like face like photoshop slip is
0:44:29feasting on five hatch and swap is what
0:44:31was installing Lord of the Rings ninety
0:44:33percent on it doesn't make for a better
0:44:35movie but it does give me a little taste
0:44:37of that feeling that I liked from the
0:44:39book and that's how I judge these movies
0:44:40are apart from government moviemaking
0:44:42which is there are many things to
0:44:43complain about their I say ok there's
0:44:45something in the book that I like in you
0:44:47know and helms deep something I like
0:44:48about Hobbiton something I like about
0:44:50gum you know that sticks out in my mind
0:44:52did they get extract like ring out any
0:44:55of that thing and put it in this movie
0:44:57even if it's unlike an accurate way and
0:44:59you know the surrounding stuff is dumb
0:45:01you know whatever it is that you're
0:45:02thinking of did they get any of that in
0:45:05here so like the Helms Deep battles a
0:45:06good example I get a little bit of the
0:45:08same feeling from reading the homestead
0:45:10battle as i did in the homestead battle
0:45:12in the movie so good job there right and
0:45:14so that's what I that's how i have two
0:45:15judges look at every one of these scenes
0:45:17i really hate that Tolkien left out the
0:45:19part where legolas slides on the shield
0:45:21that was not gonna hear that feeling is
0:45:23not a feeling that I get no but notice
0:45:26that's a that's of the steps of mistake
0:45:28always awesome i'll stand I will defend
0:45:30it to the dead very says like a
0:45:31hoverboard in middle earth that is why
0:45:34it is awesome
0:45:35I want to get back on something John
0:45:36said there which is about pacing because
0:45:38I this is this is something that I've
0:45:39been thinking too which is what you want
0:45:42it you know you don't if you're running
0:45:44a marathon you don't start sprinting
0:45:46right you don't because it's a long it's
0:45:49a different kind of race and a thousand
0:45:51page novel in small print is a lot of
0:45:54words and it's not a short story and
0:45:56it's not a short novel and when I talk
0:45:58about watching the extended editions and
0:46:01watching them over six nights that's the
0:46:03mindset that I min is I'm happy for it
0:46:06to be as leisurely as it wants to be and
0:46:10for me Ted for them to add the scenes in
0:46:12that add to the richness but don't
0:46:14necessarily resolve the you know the
0:46:16plot holes or anything like that they
0:46:18just add to the written richness of this
0:46:20world that I'm immersing myself in for
0:46:21the better part of a week and that you
0:46:25know to me that is the difference here
0:46:26is that is that I'm not expecting this
0:46:29it's that many serious thing i'm not
0:46:31expecting this to be a movie and holding
0:46:33it to the the judgment of a three-hour
0:46:35movie because it's not it's this
0:46:37sprawling 11-hour thing we're in
0:46:40look for him you know it's a gigantic
0:46:42tone and anything I ding the movie for
0:46:45when it's not long enough like in the
0:46:46book the feeling when they're going
0:46:47through more doors just like this
0:46:49totally blasted landscape and they have
0:46:51no water and just miserable and the
0:46:52movie I'm like the way that was like
0:46:54three scenes they're already through
0:46:55that shouldn't be much longer that's it
0:46:57should be just an incredible slog of
0:46:58just torture is starving to death
0:47:01I'm not knowing how they're gonna and I
0:47:02did it like only what was that ok was 45
0:47:04minutes but still it's not you want you
0:47:06want all of order to basically be the
0:47:08entirety of lawrence of arabia inserted
0:47:10within return again at least like with
0:47:13that is again I get judging section is
0:47:15about how do I feel when I'm reading
0:47:16about Sam and Frodo going through more I
0:47:17feel like it's miserable i feel like
0:47:19it's hopeless and like did they captured
0:47:21in the movie
0:47:22not really because they were too busy
0:47:23with the Golem stuff which is fun and
0:47:25everything but like it they had other
0:47:26things they kept jumping back and forth
0:47:28to what's going on it you know he's in
0:47:29the book they do also not jump back and
0:47:32forth as much they have like here's a
0:47:33solid thing of salmon from over here is
0:47:34a solid thing what's going on with with
0:47:36every day with the airborne endeavor but
0:47:38they can't you can't do that movie right
0:47:40now and then but but that's what I'm
0:47:42saying like it was in certain aspects i
0:47:44feel like they did didn't it the movie
0:47:46wasn't long enough and and this is the
0:47:47only way i can judge this movie because
0:47:49like I watch them and I enjoy them at
0:47:51all looking for here is did you
0:47:53reproduce that think good feeling that i
0:47:56liked about the movie in some form
0:47:57because cocaine it doesn't hold together
0:47:59coherently and the moviemaking is very
0:48:01hand fisted and there are many things
0:48:02not to like about it but I like the
0:48:05world so much the reason i like watching
0:48:08movies like yeah they do occasionally
0:48:10hit those little notes like oh yeah I
0:48:12like that
0:48:12Oh yep I like that I like that from the
0:48:14book i like that but if I had never read
0:48:16the books and just watch these movies i
0:48:17would be like all my god I'm never
0:48:19watching us music here's a radical
0:48:21proposal
0:48:22like what if they were able to buy a
0:48:24libretto form of this movie just like an
0:48:27opera like it's a it's like the operas
0:48:29are often like their hours and hours
0:48:30longer a different language their
0:48:32stories from a different time and a
0:48:34different country and so it's not
0:48:36considered cheating that there is a
0:48:37printed libretto that will say here is
0:48:39the story that you're about to see and
0:48:41in the form of like six pages you can
0:48:43definitely follow so that you kind of
0:48:45know how you certainly know how it's
0:48:46gonna end you know what the major story
0:48:48beats are and I can sort of just sit
0:48:50back and relax and enjoy the scenery the
0:48:51costumes and the performances
0:48:53what if they were a version of that like
0:48:55for the lord of the rings movie where
0:48:56the same land in 10 never talk about
0:48:59anything i'm just talking about what if
0:49:01you were to summarize it in here so
0:49:02they're 12 years a 12-page version of
0:49:04this movie that will just show this walk
0:49:06you through beat for beat for beat not
0:49:07even like subhead here the characters
0:49:09but the studio to retell the story in
0:49:11the form of 12 pages i think it's called
0:49:13the the wikipedia entry no no i don't i
0:49:17don't want to go by the wicked ride out
0:49:19of this that I think the key is this
0:49:20cannot be written by anybody who has
0:49:22read the book more than once and I don't
0:49:25want people say we put it away i didn't
0:49:27want to tell me what happens in inhales
0:49:29deep okay first of all it's a it's I if
0:49:32if you have that sort of orientation
0:49:34around you even reading the books that
0:49:36would it would allow you to sort of let
0:49:38go of this idea of I I I can't keep
0:49:42track of all these names i keep can I
0:49:44can't keep track of all these locations
0:49:45you can just sort of enjoy the story as
0:49:48it's being on unfolded and one of the
0:49:50problems with is that at least like in
0:49:52the star trek universe with someone like
0:49:54cock like okay he's a Klingon I don't
0:49:58know what he's after but I know that
0:49:59he's a Klingon where is ok to do is a
0:50:01Boromir floor mirror just dominoed ears
0:50:04like okay those are four different
0:50:05species but they're all essentially
0:50:07daughters and sons of the same traveling
0:50:09salesman for from two generations ago
0:50:11because they have the same root of the
0:50:12last name and this goes back to all the
0:50:14things my wife is confused about right
0:50:15there is but there's Rohan and there's
0:50:18gone door and they're all humans but the
0:50:20some of them ride horses and some of
0:50:22them don't ride horses i found myself
0:50:24explaining this stuff to my son is
0:50:27watching it pause the movie frequently
0:50:28to explain but it's like I feel like you
0:50:30can't you can't always say like ok
0:50:32they're in Gondor III what i would do is
0:50:34i would go to the map that hopefully
0:50:35comes with the expenditure I just want
0:50:37to watch a movie and say look here's
0:50:39here's gone door here's more so like
0:50:41that's why they're worried about as
0:50:42they're always there right by Gondor
0:50:44Rohan's up there but then when they got
0:50:45attacked they didn't come and say it
0:50:47like I have to explain the geopolitics
0:50:48otherwise like I didn't think an
0:50:50eight-year-old could understand why are
0:50:52these humans mad at each other like you
0:50:54see it's because of where they live and
0:50:55because of alien that he's the steward
0:50:57he's not the king but the king is gone
0:50:59and who is the guy was related to the
0:51:01King you know that tiny throne tiny
0:51:03throne when Mordor assassinated arch
0:51:06like Franz Ferdinand yes be seriously
0:51:08does happen otherwise like I mean you
0:51:09can have a war movie I guess without
0:51:11knowing what war one happen but this is
0:51:12like the whole point of this is like
0:51:14it's like geopolitics and how can you
0:51:16how can you understand what's at stake
0:51:18in these battles and why these people
0:51:19are mad at each other and they do put
0:51:20that in their performances of like who's
0:51:22mad at who for what reason because of
0:51:23who's dead relatives and so on
0:51:25even all the way back to solder which
0:51:26they were nice enough to put in the end
0:51:28the beginning of the movies like you
0:51:29know I'd argue this one advantage of the
0:51:31movie over the book is it opens with an
0:51:32actual explanation of the scope of
0:51:34what's going on and why everyone's so
0:51:36freaked out because the books you're
0:51:38like things are great in the Shire but
0:51:40yeah it takes a long time to get to a
0:51:42point while you're what anyone is
0:51:43worried about anything in that you know
0:51:45tool suspense is why the fellowship you
0:51:46know you got the deed all these
0:51:47intervals and greater and greater evil
0:51:49you meet the evil trees in the tone the
0:51:52river you meet the evil better right
0:51:54spots from the perspective of the
0:51:55hobbits are the ringwraiths and then you
0:51:57build like okay there's actually
0:51:59somebody even more evil than all of that
0:52:01and that's what this all come about in
0:52:02the movie i think it's actually find
0:52:04that they set the scene by saying
0:52:05alright there's this dude he's super
0:52:07evil we got rid of him sorta and then
0:52:10things got messed up so go and can we
0:52:12get some agreement that the best part of
0:52:14all three of these movies is the opening
0:52:16of fellowship where they do the
0:52:18backstory is not the best what the best
0:52:21part of all if you had to pick what is
0:52:22the best part of all three of these
0:52:24movies i would say it's the opening the
0:52:26opening sequence for the shows are on
0:52:27mostly because there's no dialogue
0:52:29it's also where you know they cut to it
0:52:31later because they have they have l ron
0:52:34is recalling i was there three thousand
0:52:37years ago you know they cut back to that
0:52:39Senior like this would actually also be
0:52:41a good movie when I'm not because i
0:52:43would start talking and have music cue
0:52:45musical cues and three good movies glad
0:52:48well I want to defend I want defend as a
0:52:51whole i really like fellowship of the
0:52:53ring is my favorite of the three
0:52:55I think largely because the scope is
0:52:57smaller it feels more personal feels
0:53:00more intimate as a movie it has some of
0:53:01my favorite John was driving the the
0:53:04filmmaking as ham-fisted I think
0:53:06Fellowship has the best of any of it
0:53:08because it's not Peter Jackson going
0:53:10over the top there are little shots i
0:53:12want my favorite shot the entire trilogy
0:53:14is the when they are the first time they
0:53:16leave the Shire and the end up
0:53:17on the road and Jackson uses the old
0:53:20Alfred Hitchcock's vertigo you know
0:53:22pan-arab zoom in trade dolly back shot
0:53:25on the road and get that need effect i
0:53:28love it but i would call him and fisted
0:53:29you got it got it other than know that
0:53:31it's beautiful that's great it's a great
0:53:33moment it's a great shot
0:53:36I think fellowship is my least favorite
0:53:38except for that one opening what the
0:53:39rest of it because I you know everything
0:53:41else starts to blur together after a
0:53:42while Holmes deep looks a lot like the
0:53:44battling Gondor you know it's really
0:53:46like other counting how many guys they
0:53:48killed and he's got a bit of his helmet
0:53:51on students good filmmaking is focused
0:53:53they build up to that battle even if you
0:53:55forgotten why they're even battling you
0:53:57understand that there if they have
0:53:59decided that their best option is to
0:54:01retreat to somewhere where there's no
0:54:02escape and that the bad people are
0:54:04coming and you you know it's a good bill
0:54:07up
0:54:07it's a completely different movie though
0:54:09because i think i think two towers and
0:54:11and return the King are very clearly war
0:54:13movies
0:54:14whereas the fellowship of the ring feels
0:54:15like an adventure but i'm with you and
0:54:18that once they get to return of the king
0:54:20the stakes for Gondor it's like they
0:54:22really care what's happening in Gondor
0:54:24as much more shows deep it felt more
0:54:25personal like oh I know those guys who
0:54:28are holed up there and they've got
0:54:29problems and it looks like everything's
0:54:30against them in here comes Gandalf and
0:54:32yeah you know like I had the correct
0:54:33feeling by return of the king was like
0:54:35it's too much cgi for me i really like
0:54:37the earlier movies where the battles
0:54:39feel like you've got the fellowship
0:54:40right and it really feels like there's
0:54:42these nine guys right and they're trying
0:54:44to get over you know basically to Mordor
0:54:47but dr. village Peter Jackson's
0:54:49filmmaking skills i know that filmed all
0:54:51at once but the filmmaking skills and
0:54:53fellowship it seems like he was just
0:54:54still finding his legs and it feels
0:54:56almost like it was made by like the
0:54:58b-team I don't agree because i feel like
0:55:00it you know if you look at his earlier
0:55:02work it's very it's very much similar in
0:55:05the same way that if you look at like
0:55:06Sam Raimi directing spider-man it really
0:55:08he's got a lot of stuff that technically
0:55:09you know resemble stuff he did in
0:55:11earlier movies you know there's there's
0:55:13something distinctive about the way that
0:55:15Peter Jackson did it and it's odd i was
0:55:17just listening the other day because we
0:55:18talked about this a little bit and one
0:55:19of our previous podcast you know that he
0:55:21has such an eclectic history coming you
0:55:23know film background before he gets into
0:55:25Lord of the Rings but it seems to me
0:55:27that some of his yeah he did some sloppy
0:55:30stuff earlier on but it
0:55:31I think part of that still continues
0:55:32with a meat but you could argue the same
0:55:34thing about Lucas and star wars with all
0:55:36the you know the wipes and stuff that
0:55:37was very much nineteen-thirties yeah
0:55:39that's kinda ham-fisted two depending on
0:55:41how you look at it i think you know that
0:55:43was an oh my gosh that's what does like
0:55:44quentin tarantino doing grindhouse yeah
0:55:46but i think i think this would be I
0:55:47think it without a lot of the stuff that
0:55:49makes it Peter Jackson and some of it I
0:55:51find a little bit silly but i think
0:55:53without all of it would have been very
0:55:54sterile and that i think would have
0:55:57bothered me more than something that's
0:55:58occasionally a bit kitschy some people
0:56:01do say it is it feels a little generic I
0:56:02don't totally agree with that but I see
0:56:04where they're coming from like they you
0:56:06know generic warrior guide generic
0:56:08health guy like I don't think it is
0:56:09generic I think they aren't designed
0:56:10right but that's not Jackson as much as
0:56:13this the source material again being
0:56:14kind of archetypal I know like I had
0:56:16that's that I think that's basically
0:56:18what they're seeing and they don't
0:56:19realize like this is the original
0:56:20reminds me of the famous penny arcade
0:56:22comic that no one on this podcast will
0:56:24know what I'm everything so I don't
0:56:25represent but someone in the audience
0:56:26will wear gave talks about what was it
0:56:31warhammer and world of warcraft anyway
0:56:33we'll put in the show notes
0:56:34oh yeah that's a good one I have no idea
0:56:36what Germans had two things I want to
0:56:37measure one is it if we talk about
0:56:40confusion and and stopping to explain
0:56:43what's going on it's not like I don't do
0:56:45that for Game of Thrones to first off
0:56:46I'm happy and I'm gonna pin this one on
0:56:49one talking having your most obvious
0:56:53present bad guy be named sorry man
0:56:56and then having your other bigger bad
0:56:59guy named Sauron is really confusing
0:57:02because it's like which one is he are
0:57:04they the same are they different it's
0:57:06like they're practically the same name
0:57:07so that is a that that's also super
0:57:10super confusing and in terms of movies i
0:57:14actually think i prefer the two towers
0:57:17because i really like that at the Helms
0:57:19Deep scenes and I really enjoy the
0:57:21scenes with with the Gimli and legolas
0:57:26i'm going to get all the names out and
0:57:29aragorn when they're kinda on the road
0:57:31chasing the orcs but that also leads to
0:57:34one of the big problems structurally
0:57:36with the with the series of movies which
0:57:38is the Fellowship's not around very much
0:57:40there around four part of the end of the
0:57:42first movie and then there's the the
0:57:43breaking of the fellowship
0:57:44and then in the second movie sam and
0:57:48frodo go in this bizarre holding pattern
0:57:51where they go over to they go through
0:57:53the swamps to the Blackgate I have to
0:57:55just circle of the airport yet they are
0:57:56they're literally in the holding pattern
0:57:58right into Mordor holding pattern for an
0:58:00awesome fuel before the crash
0:58:02it's just so they get so they can close
0:58:03out the movie and say hey look remember
0:58:05us we're gonna still go on to that place
0:58:06hi guys
0:58:07they could they could not be they could
0:58:09literally not be in the second movie and
0:58:12it wouldn't have any impact their
0:58:14they're barely anyway I think there's
0:58:15some good there's some good character
0:58:17stuff that goes on but i agree there are
0:58:18not wise not much happens with that
0:58:20exact date but that's kind of John's
0:58:22point like they're just walking that's
0:58:24what they're doing admit that was it
0:58:26that was the mechanics of having three
0:58:27movies right but it makes you feel like
0:58:29you're getting jerked around because
0:58:30they're not only are they walking there
0:58:32like walking and then walking back right
0:58:34by the end we're back at the river and
0:58:37that's what are we doing here you like
0:58:39it it's like like one of those are
0:58:41family circus cartoons where Billy's
0:58:44like that around the neighborhood with
0:58:45the dotted line stopped and had a
0:58:48sandwich more elegant bread up to its
0:58:50credit though the movies the movies
0:58:52scenes about Frodo and Sam walking
0:58:54around are pretty much just as boring as
0:58:56the book their big splash having read
0:58:57the book so many times I have to skip
0:58:59over most of book five of six like I
0:59:02just going alright I don't none of this
0:59:04adds anything to me when you say that
0:59:06you watched a movie and you read a book
0:59:08it usually means you watch the whole
0:59:10movie and read the whole this whole idea
0:59:11that you say i watch the movie but I
0:59:13fast forward to our spot that's not
0:59:15actually watching moving freely
0:59:16technically all you wanted someone
0:59:18associated a certain number times now
0:59:20you're being silly if you if I've read
0:59:21the books ten times now I'm not saying
0:59:23there's anything shameful about skipping
0:59:25and I'm just saying you don't say that
0:59:26you watch the movie again if you fast
0:59:28far and you can't skip parts i mean yes
0:59:30you can because you can you can presume
0:59:32you know you know what's gonna happen
0:59:33it's tedious I don't need a bunch of
0:59:35reading again unless it serves the part
0:59:37that this is this is going to be sort of
0:59:39one of those fundamentals arguments so i
0:59:41think we have people that know i think
0:59:43it is it's just some it's just semantics
0:59:45it's like all arguments i think you
0:59:47could argue that if you've read the book
0:59:48ten times and then you and then you
0:59:50leave through it and eleventh you
0:59:52haven't read it in 11th time you've
0:59:54lived through it
0:59:55parts of it the wall
0:59:56working parts of the walking walking
0:59:59parts are boring
0:59:59parts are boring
1:00:00print as well as in the movie is the pie
1:00:01looked at I've looked at the map on the
1:00:03endpapers a lot there so I said that I
1:00:05like i said that i like the the the two
1:00:07towers but one of the reasons i like the
1:00:08two towers is because of almost it's
1:00:11like despite sam and frodo because it's
1:00:13a manfrotto and got one column whose
1:00:15interesting but they're like there's a
1:00:17whole half-hour half the movie is a
1:00:19misunderstanding where they say take us
1:00:21into the black gate he goes oh I didn't
1:00:23know you meant take me to mourn all
1:00:24right that's a totally different way and
1:00:26then they well sucks for you hobbits
1:00:29come with me and and then they get how
1:00:32might you know that and that's a problem
1:00:33and it's a problem of the source
1:00:35material its problem how you want to
1:00:36make three movies and you have to give
1:00:38it give it a plot but it's also just a
1:00:40problem that this this is a series of
1:00:42different stories and the most
1:00:43interesting stories at least peter
1:00:45jackson and and his judgment to a modern
1:00:48audience are these battles and armies
1:00:51and horses and things like that and the
1:00:53idea is it supposed to be juxtaposed
1:00:55with this quieter story about Frodo
1:00:57struggle with the ring and say I'm
1:00:58trying to support him and gollum trying
1:01:00to intervene and steal the ring back and
1:01:02the problem with that is there's just
1:01:04not enough of that to carry the rest of
1:01:07the story and so in the second movie you
1:01:10know they kind of the kind of vanish and
1:01:13you feel like you know it's like those
1:01:14middle seasons of lost we're just trying
1:01:16to stretch it out we got we're not ready
1:01:18yet just keep on stretching it out and
1:01:20it's really that part is frustrating and
1:01:22you know I i like i like the two towers
1:01:25really because photos nowhere near Helms
1:01:28team you know things that I judge these
1:01:30movies on for my enjoyment is how much
1:01:32do I like the thing that the that I
1:01:37guess the Saturday the setting for the
1:01:39thing how much do I like the setting out
1:01:40and you know they made all the wonderful
1:01:42practical sets with Hobbiton and shower
1:01:44and everything like that but like for
1:01:46example rollin I like wherever that is
1:01:48New Zealand that was shot i like the
1:01:50horses i feel like the wind swept area
1:01:53right and I like less the Giant you know
1:01:56cg city of Gondor whatever so a lot of a
1:01:59lot of my affection for the moon for
1:02:01example and fellowship i like them going
1:02:02down the river like the big statues with
1:02:04your hands up the Glen will know the
1:02:06names up little statues are great like
1:02:08those parts of the movie like some
1:02:11people make fun of my spectacles like it
1:02:12was giant
1:02:13possibly like all just a bunch of robots
1:02:14fighting but there are beautiful places
1:02:16in New Zealand that have filmed in this
1:02:17movie in a nice way with with very hokey
1:02:20music over it but you know right well
1:02:21that's what I'm saying about the first
1:02:23movies I feel like there is less of that
1:02:24elaboration on what is already there and
1:02:28looks beautiful i mean even the smaller
1:02:29sets things like whether top and a
1:02:32Manhattan at the end which is like I
1:02:34think my favorite like battle scene in
1:02:36the entire movie is Aragorn and against
1:02:38all the orcs means they works are really
1:02:40crappy by the way they died way too easy
1:02:43the reliance on practical effects is
1:02:46what the same way that we talked about
1:02:48this with you know something like Star
1:02:49Wars where the reliance on models over
1:02:51the reliance on the cgi stuff which
1:02:53seems very solace I think that's to me
1:02:55what I really loved about Jackson's
1:02:57interpretation was I could easily see
1:02:59almost any other director going to be
1:03:01like oh well we could make you know
1:03:03Giants but whatever that's way too
1:03:04expensive we're just gonna we're gonna
1:03:05do everything in CGI you know and we'll
1:03:08knock it off for half the price
1:03:09otherwise the soundstages where the top
1:03:11is no good though
1:03:12Mickey yeah well whether top prospect of
1:03:13making this argument final decade is
1:03:15because when the Phantom Menace others
1:03:17came out and it was obvious from the
1:03:19beginning there it had that green screen
1:03:21feel everything about it felt artificial
1:03:23they were never interact with real
1:03:24objects real places and you juxtapose
1:03:26that fellowship came out and it felt
1:03:28real i remember one of the actors
1:03:29talking about a scene in the mines of
1:03:31moria where he's like we're in this room
1:03:33and it's like we're in the minds of
1:03:34others cameras and stuff i look down the
1:03:36floor and there's a piece of paper i
1:03:38pick it up and it's covered with
1:03:39dwarvish writing it's not they they were
1:03:42in a space that was designed to make
1:03:43them feel real Andy Serkis way into the
1:03:45motion capture was there acting with the
1:03:47performance he wasn't it wasn't them
1:03:49acting too empty air and they dropped in
1:03:51the cgi later they were all in a space
1:03:53working together that had real depth and
1:03:56character they could work through there
1:03:58was a bit actually you know walk a half
1:04:00a mile or whatever they were walking 10
1:04:02feet over and over again that's the
1:04:04depressing part of these movies is that
1:04:05I realized they spent so much money on
1:04:07these movies and these are the people
1:04:09and people who made these props cared so
1:04:10much and yet still I think some of the
1:04:12practical sets don't look that good and
1:04:14like it because I want him comparing it
1:04:15to is the natural beauty New Zealand
1:04:17which they didn't have to manufacture
1:04:18like those mountains are there right and
1:04:20you can fly the helicopter over them in
1:04:21the Sun actually sets and it's like boy
1:04:23you know you can't buy that and they
1:04:25built these awesome sets we did
1:04:27best job they could possibly do with all
1:04:28this money like they built home Steven
1:04:30that sometimes don't like em ory looks a
1:04:32little bit like a soundstage guys sorry
1:04:35I mean like how much better can they do
1:04:36it like a i'm a big proponent of
1:04:38technology i feel like you know in 50
1:04:40years you can do the Rings over again
1:04:42with CW making her to meet you and John
1:04:44will have to invent time machines to go
1:04:46back in time build maurya let it age for
1:04:48thousands video so they can come back
1:04:50and film in there but you can use a
1:04:51computer for that I'm saying like it
1:04:53like this is the best that they probably
1:04:54could have made it given the amount of
1:04:56money but still sometimes you like and
1:04:58really it what happened what happens is
1:05:00be compared to the actual natural beauty
1:05:02of a real place on the sets that we
1:05:04built can hold up to that that's you
1:05:05know the lawrence of arabia factors like
1:05:07look at a real desert you know looks
1:05:09good on camera but if you have to do
1:05:11stuff on a soundstage it looks very
1:05:12different so I'm not faulting filmmakers
1:05:14for that but it just goes to show like
1:05:16when they said this movie these movies
1:05:17are unfilmable I kind of see why they
1:05:19would say that because they did that
1:05:21these people like this is a great team
1:05:23they really want to do it but still
1:05:25sometimes I'm like now forced
1:05:27perspective not quite working for me
1:05:28they're all that sets not that great i
1:05:30know your props are beautiful you know
1:05:31if you listen to the directors
1:05:32commentary I've listened to Jackson his
1:05:34wife and the the writing partner Kyle I
1:05:37became a witch 1i watches a couple years
1:05:38ago and there's a part where they're
1:05:40they're actually joking there because
1:05:42they go through their like yeah they're
1:05:43like well for the 25th extraversion 20th
1:05:46anniversary edition will change that
1:05:47they'll start laughing it's clear they
1:05:49have a list of their head of all the
1:05:50stuff and different scenes they start
1:05:52talking about it and they're not being
1:05:53negative but they're being a little ride
1:05:54and they're like oh yeah we wanted to
1:05:56look like that we couldn't like after
1:05:58the 25th anniversary edition so you know
1:06:00they've got like a shot list of what
1:06:02they're going to do with the technology
1:06:03is new with rendering is a thousand
1:06:05times again they're going to insert
1:06:06hayden christensen as one of those
1:06:08ghosts Kings lego a shot first man
1:06:12damnation Weathertop and jon was talking
1:06:14earlier about things that he sees his
1:06:16mind when he's reading the book versus
1:06:18what was the movie two things in this
1:06:20movie matched more closely i think than
1:06:24any movie I've seen based on a book
1:06:27well other than I guess like watch men
1:06:29where they literally took the pages and
1:06:31made them the storyboard all when it
1:06:32also went to yet when it's a comic books
1:06:34all right it's a little bit different
1:06:35act but but the the scene where they
1:06:37hide under the roots of the tree to get
1:06:39off the road
1:06:40when the women on school come by is
1:06:43exactly how I pictured it when i read
1:06:45the book that's also a great scene i
1:06:47love that I love everything about the
1:06:49beginning when the you know they're
1:06:50running away from the rates right nice
1:06:51and scary it's very it's very
1:06:53atmospheric yeah oh yeah and my kids
1:06:56were definitely terrified at that part
1:06:57which was good because they're supposed
1:06:58to be that's a scalar scary the
1:07:00screeching and it is that screeching
1:07:02let's know it's not the screeching at
1:07:03the sniffing sniffing part only address
1:07:06write a lot of me though and Weathertop
1:07:08Weathertop actually looks like I thought
1:07:10it would be pictured as a soundstage
1:07:12know it's a it's a hill with rocks right
1:07:14but it was a little high Landry actually
1:07:16no one around so that was surprised i
1:07:18like so much didn't hit me the right way
1:07:20although i love Weathertop how I copped
1:07:22a shot now John you mentioned helicopter
1:07:24shadow i'm totally with you i'm totally
1:07:27with it takes me it takes me out of the
1:07:28whole story where I'm like what am I am
1:07:30i flying that's a helicopter their legal
1:07:32field with a camera in an eagle it fluid
1:07:34they take me out of it every time in
1:07:36their beautiful shots of the scenery but
1:07:37it takes me out of it
1:07:38the signal fires is the one time it
1:07:40works because then it's actually makes
1:07:41sense you're following the signal fire
1:07:42but i do like the helicopter shots if
1:07:44only because it's like wow they really
1:07:46like think how much land they had to
1:07:48clear out of the way many people filming
1:07:51feel like there's like a hundred miles
1:07:53around there's nobody there with these
1:07:54six guys impressive and beautiful it
1:07:56just takes me out of the out of the
1:07:58movie entirely and I think that's a
1:08:00helicopter and I do every single time I
1:08:03think that's a helicopter in it and it's
1:08:05just there's something about it that
1:08:07it's ok it's interesting to think about
1:08:09like how how we've been programmed by
1:08:11previous movies it's like whenever I see
1:08:13a movie that's filming on an epic scale
1:08:15at some point i'm drawing back on the
1:08:18language that I learned like with those
1:08:19huge like cinerama like David Lee way
1:08:23Lawrence of Arabia from the 16 right and
1:08:25like well the heat he didn't have a
1:08:26helicopter available he had a huge
1:08:28freaking platform they lock the camera
1:08:29down on and so at all so he didn't have
1:08:32like five lk occasionally had a couple
1:08:35thousand extras but rarely could you
1:08:36have five thousand extras and monster
1:08:39costumes swarming in a formation that is
1:08:42really kind really very very good but it
1:08:45looks like it's been so nicely tweak to
1:08:48make sure that every orc is exactly
1:08:50where this creature needs to be and so
1:08:52kind of fun
1:08:53reminds the reality of it that if he
1:08:55just went 2-1 establishing shot this is
1:08:57okay by the way huge field of battle
1:08:58many things going on you got five so you
1:09:01got three seconds to look at album ok
1:09:03let's put her down that field of battle
1:09:04you'll be able to see likes different
1:09:06spots about it because you get with
1:09:08either the fourth or fifth or sixth time
1:09:09you see that helicopter shot that
1:09:11sweeping you know you want to hear that
1:09:13yeah yeah okay so I be a mouse I've just
1:09:17been caught carried off by a hawk i'm
1:09:19about to be desired meeting but I get to
1:09:21see you know the hills are new zealand
1:09:22before I go okay that's nice nice last
1:09:24thing before i die so this is the part
1:09:27where we wear like peter jackson i say
1:09:29i'm going to split this podcast in two
1:09:30perhaps three now too so we're going to
1:09:34stop it here we will pick it up in the
1:09:36next episode where I hate to say it but
1:09:39I think there's going to be a lot of
1:09:40wandering around with hobbits and column
1:09:43and maybe some battles but in this
1:09:46episode III think we're just gonna end
1:09:48it here and i'm going to say goodbye for
1:09:50now to the members of my fellowship John
1:09:52siracusa thank you
1:09:54not all those who wander are lost Jason
1:09:56please come back next time for more
1:09:59wisdom like that i will you promise I do
1:10:02ok good Dan Morgan thank you for taking
1:10:04half of this journey with me i really
1:10:07hope that someday I get compared to
1:10:09Boromir wait for it
1:10:10Glenn fleischmann thank you for being
1:10:14here uh I hope this more elvish in the
1:10:16next episode
1:10:17Lucien's new video I hope there's the
1:10:20last selfish couldn't have said it
1:10:21better myself and indian taco
1:10:24thank you for being here too as soon as
1:10:27this podcast is over I'm gonna have big
1:10:29taters big bull Gators baked potatoes
1:10:33loaded with butter if i ever get home
1:10:36after this broadcast and a nice fat
1:10:39Coney until next time when we talked
1:10:42about many more Lords many more rings
1:10:45Elfie door fee Hobbit 104 not so much
1:10:50about hobbit 2 and 3 this is jason l for
1:10:54the uncomfortable thanks for listening
1:10:55come back we promise we'll talk about
1:10:57this more in another episode until then
1:11:01goodbye