The Incomparable

117: Intergalactic FedEx


  the Intolerable number 117 December [TS]

  atlantique well welcome back to the [TS]

  uncomfortable podcast I'm Jason Snelling [TS]

  i'm joined by three fine members of our [TS]

  book club [TS]

  we're going to talk about the latest in [TS]

  the 4 ko's again series of books by lois [TS]

  mcmaster bujold which we also talked [TS]

  about on a previous podcast called the [TS]

  episode title is my word is foreclosed [TS]

  again the links in the show notes this [TS]

  is the 14th book in the series i believe [TS]

  ya so if you haven't read the first 13 [TS]

  yeah you might want to tune out at some [TS]

  point when we start talking about it [TS]

  because well that's interesting that's [TS]

  an interesting question what we can talk [TS]

  about that that's yes it is interesting [TS]

  and that was that voice you heard was [TS]

  damn moron who is who is the man who [TS]

  introduced me to the four cosine series [TS]

  which I've been read 13 books in about [TS]

  two months couple years ago I consider [TS]

  that a win [TS]

  yes thank you very much also joining me [TS]

  is Scott McNulty hi Scott [TS]

  hello i also blame damn for yes I had [TS]

  never heard of this little strange [TS]

  character until I met down everything [TS]

  coming out more'n and all and the [TS]

  laughter that you hear in the background [TS]

  directed at Dan of course is it's really [TS]

  called well hello hello Jason [TS]

  I don't say three yeah i'll answer all [TS]

  entirely I've number of friends who will [TS]

  also blame me for this [TS]

  yeah are we not your friends and your [TS]

  friends yeah yeah thanks to introduce [TS]

  you guys to this book also my friends I [TS]

  mean it's well established this Gotye [TS]

  our nemesis not true [TS]

  framing sequence and Jason and I are [TS]

  friends grandma sees nemesis enemies [TS]

  no it's more like pharmacies because [TS]

  their nemesis but also friends that's [TS]

  good point there really nemesis so so [TS]

  we're going to talk about this but this [TS]

  is a to book club episodes in the row i [TS]

  believe and in our last episode it [TS]

  almost a cliffhanger except it was [TS]

  edited out so only people who listen to [TS]

  the after dark heard it when we last [TS]

  left serenity Caldwell she was a [TS]

  Disneyland and not on the podcast which [TS]

  is a real it's a shameful lack of [TS]

  priorities to lead you to know [TS]

  I I feel really horrible and I was [TS]

  screaming for the for the good three [TS]

  minutes while i was on splash mountain [TS]

  and you guys couldn't reach me [TS]

  yeah it's a shame so we were good we [TS]

  were trying to call you from from the [TS]

  podcast podcast was calling and we [TS]

  really highlights the podcast we almost [TS]

  left you a voicemail in fact it's about [TS]

  God's back because we're talking about [TS]

  what what uh and how we how we read so [TS]

  before we talk about about this latest [TS]

  for coaching book that's not it's [TS]

  actually a for patrol book but it's also [TS]

  with 40 second book I thought we would [TS]

  touch base because you were an iphone [TS]

  reader and and last week when we talked [TS]

  we talked a lot about candles and we [TS]

  talked about ipads and we talked about [TS]

  books made of paper [TS]

  mm but we didn't really talk about the [TS]

  iphone and and that was why we were [TS]

  trying to call you is that you are seem [TS]

  to be a dedicated iphone reader can you [TS]

  can you explain this to us [TS]

  explain yourself please why am i doing [TS]

  these things to my eyes you know I'm not [TS]

  actually sure how it started [TS]

  other than when i got the iphone i was [TS]

  pretty much glue to it because it was in [TS]

  my pocket and everywhere and I had gone [TS]

  through a period of i think four or five [TS]

  years where I had just not been reading [TS]

  which is in stark contrast to my life [TS]

  before then when I basically either [TS]

  bought or checked out three books a week [TS]

  from the library so during like my [TS]

  college in my coast post-college years i [TS]

  was reading absolutely nothing because I [TS]

  was either going around and you know [TS]

  running from place to place so quickly [TS]

  or already carrying five or six books [TS]

  that I had to read for school that just [TS]

  you know i did not have the extra space [TS]

  to stick in a paperback or and that [TS]

  Kendall's hadn't even been invented at [TS]

  that point so I when the kindle first [TS]

  came out I gave it a glance and promptly [TS]

  ran away cause I'm like the ink is cool [TS]

  but there's the keyboard and it's I [TS]

  guess it's kind of late but I don't know [TS]

  I it was too expensive [TS]

  I'd I just wasn't interested first it [TS]

  was bad it was yeah yeah I still [TS]

  disagree but shame no all right we'll [TS]

  talk later Scott yeah [TS]

  when the ibookstore came out i bought a [TS]

  book or two I think partially because [TS]

  being comfortable had started up by that [TS]

  point and you guys were reading pretty [TS]

  you guys are being pretty frequently at [TS]

  the front because we were doing book [TS]

  clubs with three books for books at once [TS]

  and previous to that I was just going [TS]

  into a bookstore and reading the city in [TS]

  the city from cover to cover in order to [TS]

  try and capture up by know this is a [TS]

  library lady I know I know I didn't have [TS]

  a library i didn't have a library card [TS]

  in the city that I was living because [TS]

  I'd only been living there are a few [TS]

  months so I i would go into barns and [TS]

  not like I went into the barnes and [TS]

  noble and I read city to city in seven [TS]

  hours something like that i just sat [TS]

  down in a chair and occasionally wander [TS]

  down and get coffee or something and [TS]

  then we'll tea and wonder back up and [TS]

  read more i'm going to about things from [TS]

  them eventually but they really make [TS]

  money on the coffee anyway so yeah okay [TS]

  so I mean that was my eyes my book life [TS]

  for a long time is when I wasn't reading [TS]

  a lot of books i would wander into [TS]

  bookstores i would read a couple [TS]

  chapters when i worked at the apple [TS]

  store on my lunch break i would go into [TS]

  borders I'd read two chapters i put the [TS]

  book back that I'd go back on my thing [TS]

  so when the ibookstore came out [TS]

  yeah Shh i I've spent plenty of money at [TS]

  that store it goes to borders on to you [TS]

  at night [TS]

  yes coffee shop at the coffee shop so [TS]

  when the ibookstore came out I was a [TS]

  little curious but not really super you [TS]

  know super interested in and then I [TS]

  started downloading books for being [TS]

  comparable and actually the first series [TS]

  ironically enough the first series that [TS]

  i read majorly on the iphone was the [TS]

  Vorkosigan saga in that most of the [TS]

  books were available as ebooks from [TS]

  Baines website and some of them are [TS]

  available for free and some of them are [TS]

  available via beans web store so i [TS]

  basically i think i got the first book [TS]

  from dan in paperback format and i read [TS]

  that and I wanted to read the second one [TS]

  and I didn't either have a car to go out [TS]

  to the bookstore or somewhere else so i [TS]

  actually went on [TS]

  my phone and just downloaded the second [TS]

  one from being swept store and then [TS]

  proceeded to read the entirety of the [TS]

  series on my iphone one little page at a [TS]

  time and you would think that it would [TS]

  be really really annoying reading on a [TS]

  tiny screen and in fact everybody I tell [TS]

  that i read long novels on tiny screens [TS]

  to uh looks at me like I'm a little [TS]

  crazy but I actually really like the [TS]

  almost isolation that you get from a [TS]

  small screen where you basically have to [TS]

  digest it in you have to digest the book [TS]

  in small chunks as opposed to a full [TS]

  page of paperback text for me because of [TS]

  the way i read which I'll get into in a [TS]

  second is really intimidating and i [TS]

  really like having a smaller screen so [TS]

  that i can read more carefully so the [TS]

  reason why a full page is a little weird [TS]

  is because i read mr. sounds weird I [TS]

  read all of the words but I read [TS]

  diagonally so when I scan a page with my [TS]

  eyes and I'm reading I don't read it I [TS]

  don't subvocalize in my head I actually [TS]

  I read through about two paragraphs at [TS]

  once and my brain for some magical [TS]

  reason is able to compose at all those [TS]

  words I've seen on the page into the [TS]

  appropriate sentences and word pictures [TS]

  in my head which I i know sounds really [TS]

  weird and sounds like BS but is is the [TS]

  clearest way i can approximate how I [TS]

  actually read that so so should properly [TS]

  composed paragraph for you have the best [TS]

  words kind of all on a diagonal line [TS]

  through the whole like oh this is a good [TS]

  word i'm gonna put this the middle of [TS]

  the third line of this paragraph because [TS]

  yes exactly it's like i pick and choose [TS]

  my words now it's almost like an s-curve [TS]

  in a weird ways it's my eyes kind of [TS]

  scan because i read so often as a child [TS]

  I I don't I'm just hypothesizing at this [TS]

  point but i'm able more or less to pick [TS]

  out the important words in a paragraph [TS]

  that I know will paint the accurate [TS]

  picture and it's weird because I don't [TS]

  lose any data like I'm not skimming the [TS]

  paragraph i can tell you everything that [TS]

  happened in that particular sentence [TS]

  and if an author has particularly [TS]

  interesting verbosity or interesting you [TS]

  know phrasing or with i will usually be [TS]

  able to quote those specifics phrases [TS]

  but more or less it's like it's like [TS]

  taking those words and composing a [TS]

  picture inside my head rather than some [TS]

  vocalizing each and every word [TS]

  it's getting the idea of what the scene [TS]

  looks like it doesn't work quite the [TS]

  same way for dialogue but for any kind [TS]

  of paragraph of description that's kind [TS]

  of what happens [TS]

  wow I you know I I were going to get [TS]

  Oliver Sacks on to discuss this with [TS]

  this is it seems like a neurological odd [TS]

  phenomenon that she's also occasionally [TS]

  mistake in her iphone for a hat so the [TS]

  table is clearly or a book and a hat the [TS]

  so the iphone helps your reading process [TS]

  by having fewer words on the page is it [TS]

  does that actually help you kind of [TS]

  progress as you're reading in a weird [TS]

  way is there any other kind miss [TS]

  diagonal reader it's um because of the [TS]

  the way that my eye scan if the page is [TS]

  a full page long my eyes will like I [TS]

  will actually digest that entire page at [TS]

  once or at least attempt to which will [TS]

  usually require me to just either bring [TS]

  the book closer to my face or like focus [TS]

  on paragraph one paragraph to paragraph [TS]

  3 paragraph 4 so having the iphone [TS]

  basically limit the size of the page [TS]

  means that my eyes can't read ahead by [TS]

  accident and try and incorporate that [TS]

  part of the story into the previous part [TS]

  its yeah I I don't even know how to [TS]

  describe it it's like time time-travel [TS]

  reading I i read you know i read on my [TS]

  iphone some but it's usually only when [TS]

  i'm trapped somewhere and there's no [TS]

  other I was actually just doing this [TS]

  because i was at the doctor's office [TS]

  because feeling a little under the [TS]

  weather earlier and and all i had was my [TS]

  iphone and you know in a situation like [TS]

  that I it's perfectly fine to read on I [TS]

  just don't think i would read you know a [TS]

  thousand-page book just on it I having a [TS]

  kindle or an iPad or something like that [TS]

  seems seems better but you know it's [TS]

  great when you're in those situations [TS]

  and you're in the line at Disneyland and [TS]

  you can just read a real book you got a [TS]

  book with you at all times [TS]

  oh yeah i mean i love [TS]

  that part and i love i mean the kindle [TS]

  has this to a certain extent i love [TS]

  being able to finish one book in a [TS]

  series and immediately download the next [TS]

  book is dangerous [TS]

  there's no yes it's gotten me into [TS]

  trouble I remember reading the the the [TS]

  george RR martin books which some of [TS]

  those took me a couple days and then [TS]

  also reading I got his name is gonna [TS]

  patrick rothfuss series i read the first [TS]

  two of those books back to back in about [TS]

  13 hours but diagonally so into way I do [TS]

  yes it's special attraction two hours [TS]

  guys are acting reading that's right [TS]

  you're a four-dimensional reader [TS]

  essentially yes that's that's probably [TS]

  why can you scan the top of the page and [TS]

  then the depth is extrapolated sort of [TS]

  like by sonar pinging pinging this i [TS]

  know i mean i'll ask for other reasons [TS]

  than that I like being able to have my [TS]

  complete book library on it and i like [TS]

  how light it is actually it's it seems [TS]

  weird because you know the kindle is [TS]

  light and the and the ipad is light but [TS]

  they're also bulkier in a in a similar [TS]

  way to a paperback book and the iphone [TS]

  because it fits so nicely in my hand [TS]

  it's something you know if I'm sitting [TS]

  on a crowded bus and when i was living [TS]

  in San Francisco I did a lot of sitting [TS]

  on crowded buses and have a lot you know [TS]

  I have my my backpack or my satchel and [TS]

  I be wearing a winter coat and like [TS]

  taking the time if you're only on the [TS]

  bus for 10 minutes five minutes to get a [TS]

  book out of your you know out of your [TS]

  purse and then by the time you open it [TS]

  and if you get involved in the story you [TS]

  might lose you know miss your stop if [TS]

  I'm on the iphone it's very easy for me [TS]

  to like read ten iphone pages look up [TS]

  make sure that I you know haven't [TS]

  wandered down to the mission go back [TS]

  read ten more iphone pages it's a it's [TS]

  allows me to get sucked into a book much [TS]

  more quickly which I like and it makes [TS]

  bed reading so much easier because I can [TS]

  you know I don't have to prop anything [TS]

  up which is lazy reading I admit you [TS]

  know there's something to be said about [TS]

  having a physical book in your hand [TS]

  but having the having the iphone is just [TS]

  so comfortable that i find myself [TS]

  reading a lot longer than I normally [TS]

  would if i was reading a paperback book [TS]

  like normally I'll read for like an hour [TS]

  to then put it away then do something [TS]

  then come back to reading unless i'm [TS]

  completely caught up with the iphone I [TS]

  it i become very easily immersed inside [TS]

  the book so I'm trying to imagine if we [TS]

  had actually gotten you on the phone [TS]

  from the podcast while you're in [TS]

  Disneyland you trying to explain that [TS]

  you read things diagonally while and [TS]

  wide for the haunted mansion and your [TS]

  stead that would be very confusing so [TS]

  I'm glad that we waited and that you [TS]

  were able to come on and and add a [TS]

  little kota to our how we read them [TS]

  because it was sad you couldn't be on [TS]

  but you didn't land you know magic [TS]

  disneyland the magic kingdom is a [TS]

  special place in Star Tours waits for no [TS]

  woman yeah there you go you know when I [TS]

  did start towards i got like it was all [TS]

  frequently it was like let's go to Nobu [TS]

  and-and-and like Jar Jar was in it was [TS]

  really just did you stand up in the [TS]

  middle said no this is not happening i [TS]

  was i was going to but it was but you [TS]

  know there's ship was shaking so i [TS]

  stayed they'd strap yeah you know you [TS]

  can do it smart smart yeah but they [TS]

  don't step c-3po and because they don't [TS]

  care about droids but that we don't [TS]

  serve their kind here that there are [TS]

  good they're good options and start [TS]

  towards you just have to you have to go [TS]

  on it multiple times their own unwritten [TS]

  rule at this inherently have to go on at [TS]

  least three times [TS]

  yeah now i only did the one boy it was [TS]

  there was charged our that was so set so [TS]

  so now you're in the midst of reading i [TS]

  should say the the 14th or Costa can [TS]

  book but you haven't actually finished [TS]

  it right on your iPhone all know I am a [TS]

  horrible person I decided to get work [TS]

  done and set up my new television rather [TS]

  than television television television [TS]

  rots rots your brain [TS]

  I know in my day television was called [TS]

  books are you just had a television so [TS]

  you can hook up your iphone to it so you [TS]

  can read a lot are masterful television [TS]

  reading out god how many inches is it [TS]

  diagonally [TS]

  oh maybe it is because many inches too [TS]

  many inches inches for you old man [TS]

  oh so let's hold heyo let's talk about [TS]

  captain for patrols Alliance the 14 book [TS]

  by in this series by lois mcmaster [TS]

  bujold dan more'n one of your favorite [TS]

  yes and then we'll get to some point [TS]

  where red will say I can't listen to [TS]

  this anymore to tap out and she will she [TS]

  will flee and we'll say goodbye will [TS]

  flee and i will actually go curl up on [TS]

  the couch and finish you will find out [TS]

  that I've indices I think it's a sad [TS]

  it's shame know the zombie I'm by the [TS]

  way uh 20 episode 24 the incomparable [TS]

  was our Vorkosigan episode so you can [TS]

  check that out and i will also point out [TS]

  that lois mcmaster bujold listen to that [TS]

  episode of the incomparable and her one [TS]

  of her one comment that i recall was [TS]

  they should let the woman talk more so [TS]

  it's really sad that you didn't read the [TS]

  whole book because she's gonna listen [TS]

  and she's gonna be like one of the cover [TS]

  off halfway through I didn't let her [TS]

  keep talking plus I'm sorry that was my [TS]

  fault i think I i think i emailed it to [TS]

  her which I was going over there [TS]

  do you mind my fault apparently that's [TS]

  sorry everybody [TS]

  dan and I went on and on and on about [TS]

  how much didn't like miles [TS]

  ya know so training training that so [TS]

  this is this is the ivan book this is [TS]

  not about miles I mean previously we've [TS]

  had essentially either miles is the [TS]

  central character in these books or [TS]

  prior to that it was his mother and [TS]

  father right and now we have and then [TS]

  there was like there was the ethan of [TS]

  athos and and following free which is [TS]

  sort of not it's in the same universe [TS]

  but basically these books are all about [TS]

  miles or miles parents and now we get [TS]

  his cousin eivin who has been an this [TS]

  basically comic relief character would [TS]

  you say kind of notnot we not the first [TS]

  time let's note that he is the narrator [TS]

  though because he gets a point of view [TS]

  in civil campaign sure but like I said [TS]

  sort of the primary character right [TS]

  right right right but is on the fringes [TS]

  for most of the series he is the he is [TS]

  the stereotypical character he's [TS]

  everything that miles is now [TS]

  right he's handsome tall he's debonair [TS]

  is tall right yeah and and that [TS]

  successful with the ladies right he's [TS]

  the foil even though he's not as smart [TS]

  as miles is we also know that he's a lot [TS]

  smarter than he lets on right right [TS]

  because he doesn't he doesn't want to [TS]

  get in complex situations he doesn't [TS]

  want to get in trouble he doesn't want [TS]

  and that's actually the funniest thing [TS]

  about Ivan right is that is that miles o [TS]

  his approaches him and he rolls his eyes [TS]

  and says no don't know don't get me [TS]

  involved then of course he's involved [TS]

  right [TS]

  I i like the idea so I went to a reading [TS]

  with Miss bujold she was in cambridge [TS]

  and so I went to hear her a couple weeks [TS]

  ago read from this book and she made the [TS]

  comment at some point that the problem [TS]

  is ivan is that ivan is always trying to [TS]

  avoid the plot [TS]

  yeah and and she's like well you know in [TS]

  miles you know you wouldn't want to put [TS]

  too much miles because miles away just [TS]

  like takeover right you know pushed [TS]

  everybody aside and be like all right [TS]

  yeah let's bring this on but I thought [TS]

  that did the fact that I've been [TS]

  avoiding the plot at all costs is one of [TS]

  his one of his most charming traits and [TS]

  but it makes it difficult to read a book [TS]

  with a main character who is trying to [TS]

  avoid the plot that he is it if you ask [TS]

  i mean it makes it difficult for him [TS]

  that's for sure [TS]

  that is true and it's kind it's got a [TS]

  funny though right that he's too he [TS]

  tries to get out of it but he can't get [TS]

  out of it right he just can't [TS]

  he's kind of hapless yeah i mean let's [TS]

  be fair in the in the first couple [TS]

  chapters in this book he winds up in a [TS]

  fairly compromising position fairly [TS]

  quickly [TS]

  yeah he hasn't he has a knack for that [TS]

  so yeah yeah in this so the this book [TS]

  starts and he's on assignment and he's [TS]

  he's given by his his friend by early [TS]

  friend never seen em nervous perhaps [TS]

  friend friend missus msf Ramona's I [TS]

  can't say that were you know where it's [TS]

  going to be a word now I've decided it's [TS]

  going to be a word that Riley says that [TS]

  uh I need you to watch this this girl [TS]

  who works down at this like mail boxes [TS]

  etc UPS store anyway the economy yeah [TS]

  lactic fittings [TS]

  yes exactly and intergalactic x [TS]

  yeah and he says okay sure [TS]

  I'm Susan did you might be in danger and [TS]

  so he buys it really ugly flower pot and [TS]

  takes it even has her ship it two miles [TS]

  several planets away at the first time I [TS]

  was mentioned in that book because I [TS]

  find it very funny that you know yeah [TS]

  I'm kind of our our dear friend miles [TS]

  remember him he's the main character of [TS]

  most of this series we're going to mail [TS]

  a really ugly Bosley ya ugly flower pot [TS]

  or yeah or virus that's going to be used [TS]

  as a flower pot because what else would [TS]

  you use it for and and one thing leads [TS]

  to another and he uses his skills [TS]

  so-called skills at picking up women to [TS]

  continually try to pick up this woman [TS]

  she's leaving the store and all that and [TS]

  then he doubles back because he knows [TS]

  her address because he's actually not a [TS]

  random a customer and he ends up stunned [TS]

  and tied up on a on a chair as this [TS]

  woman and her roommate who is blue a [TS]

  blue acrobat right detective an [TS]

  understatement debates what debate what [TS]

  to acrobat / dancer really except sure [TS]

  acrobatic dancer if you will slash [TS]

  living statue [TS]

  yeah did debate what to do with him and [TS]

  he ends up you know he's confident as [TS]

  always and he ends up saving them and [TS]

  and and they end up back at his [TS]

  apartment and then the fun begins [TS]

  because through a series of wacky events [TS]

  he ends up having to marry the woman in [TS]

  order to protect her from the local [TS]

  authorities so you've heard of the meat [TS]

  cute this book actually has the Mary [TS]

  cute [TS]

  well and and you know in i think which [TS]

  which prompts my favorite line from the [TS]

  book which is so he's done all of this [TS]

  to basically aboard have avoided having [TS]

  her deported because in marrying him she [TS]

  basically becomes a subject of bar ER [TS]

  and thus you know protected to a certain [TS]

  extent and so as they're there can you [TS]

  know doing the ceremony as the the [TS]

  immigration all officials are trying to [TS]

  knock down their doors and so just as [TS]

  they they burst in and they've conclude [TS]

  the ceremony in that the immigration [TS]

  officials go to a pretender you get the [TS]

  lovely [TS]

  unhand lady for patricia i know that i [TS]

  know you love that line [TS]

  I I thought it was I just I don't know [TS]

  it was one of those like day you know [TS]

  her books are very often amusing but [TS]

  this one you know like a civil campaign [TS]

  is something that you know it's much [TS]

  more comedic than it yes you know all [TS]

  the other ones are you know quite moving [TS]

  I mean several of them i laughed out [TS]

  loud at several points in this book i [TS]

  left at all [TS]

  yeah there's a good three chapter [TS]

  section and it's all I mean and it's all [TS]

  it's all character-based humor for the [TS]

  most part right it's because you know [TS]

  these people right and you defect that [TS]

  they're put in these situations and that [TS]

  they react in ways that you know our [TS]

  kind of familiar [TS]

  you know it's like seeing your best [TS]

  friend get into you know a particular [TS]

  type of trouble odd-man John's always [TS]

  get into that trouble right you know i [TS]

  don't like the specific it's like you [TS]

  know these people because they're so [TS]

  fully fleshed-out characters that [TS]

  there's something very amusing in the [TS]

  fact that you see them get into these [TS]

  situations and knowing you know the fact [TS]

  that all the items getting dragged into [TS]

  this against his will [TS]

  it just comes off very charming so i was [TS]

  looking on amazon and there's a book [TS]

  list review that that is is positive but [TS]

  one of the things that it says I'm [TS]

  trying to find it here is is new readers [TS]

  can enjoy Ivan story on its own but will [TS]

  miss many of the nuances that add depth [TS]

  and character and I wanted to ask when [TS]

  you've got something that's you know the [TS]

  14th book in a series i think the [TS]

  strongest thing about it and what struck [TS]

  me especially in the first half of this [TS]

  book really the part that rim is red is [TS]

  is that a lot of it works because these [TS]

  are all characters that we know and [TS]

  seeing you again and seeing these [TS]

  corners of the universe you know filled [TS]

  out a little bit and seeing these people [TS]

  placed in funny situations works really [TS]

  well and i kinda can't conceive of what [TS]

  this book would read like if you haven't [TS]

  read the 14 books that came before it [TS]

  yeah i'm curious about that and I know [TS]

  that on her blog lowest posted that [TS]

  issue was really curious she had not [TS]

  seen a lot of reviews from people who [TS]

  had not read this series otherwise and [TS]

  she was really curious to know how it [TS]

  how it played for someone who had not [TS]

  read it and so I i have no idea i mean [TS]

  having of course read these books many [TS]

  times I would [TS]

  really interested to hear if somebody I [TS]

  just can't imagine that a lot of people [TS]

  are picking it up if they're not already [TS]

  fans of the series but I imagine there [TS]

  must be some people out there somewhere [TS]

  who are court reading it for the first [TS]

  time I got can you imagine anybody [TS]

  reading this and having makes sense if [TS]

  they hadn't read the others [TS]

  well I i do know that this is her first [TS]

  book that has appeared on the new york [TS]

  times bestseller was the expanded list [TS]

  so a lot of people are buying it [TS]

  I I can i if this was my first entree [TS]

  into this universe i don't think i would [TS]

  have read the other books only because i [TS]

  think i enjoy the book i should say but [TS]

  I think it's kind of light and yeah [TS]

  there's nothing wrong with having a [TS]

  little thin like Ivan I don't know if [TS]

  I've been is a character who I would [TS]

  care about as a main character if I [TS]

  hadn't read all the other books and kind [TS]

  of been like oh I mean he's kind of [TS]

  funny [TS]

  I wonder what he would do in all these [TS]

  situations ah so I have that back story [TS]

  about him and I know how he's reacting [TS]

  and all these other things so i can see [TS]

  him in these situations and it makes [TS]

  sense but if I were and obviously I [TS]

  can't read the other book so i don't [TS]

  know if this would actually be the case [TS]

  but i have a feeling that this is not [TS]

  the best introduction to this series i [TS]

  think it's great for the fans and for [TS]

  people who have read already because you [TS]

  know like you guys said it's like you're [TS]

  meeting your friends again and you're [TS]

  seeing a different side of these books [TS]

  because it's very different than you [TS]

  know a miles adventure so that's a very [TS]

  interesting take on it but uh yeah I [TS]

  think it would [TS]

  it's not a great honor first country [TS]

  yeah yeah he was nice about ivan is that [TS]

  he's he's reluctant and and you know I [TS]

  don't know if you could carry on carry [TS]

  off a lot of books but i think it's fun [TS]

  to compare it to a miles kind of like a [TS]

  jumping in and and taking control of the [TS]

  situation and instead I've been really [TS]

  wants to not be in the situation but uh [TS]

  one of the things i always liked about [TS]

  the first two books at is that reading [TS]

  the first two books that had that had [TS]

  miles parents as the main characters is [TS]

  now when i read all these other books i [TS]

  had this strange perspective of saying [TS]

  thinking like I remember [TS]

  you kids I'd I knew your parents right i [TS]

  remember when when when you know what [TS]

  that way back when before you were even [TS]

  born and with Ivan I you know it works [TS]

  better you're right Scott when because [TS]

  we know I fun and we've seen him in [TS]

  other situations and then make reference [TS]

  to a lot of his situations like when he [TS]

  was trapped in the with the rising water [TS]

  on Earth and all of that when he was in [TS]

  danger but the thing about Ivan that I [TS]

  remember the most and it and its [TS]

  reference really nicely in here is his [TS]

  birth which is at the time is is just [TS]

  part of this dramatic scene in Bari are [TS]

  I think the second book [TS]

  yeah chronologically in the series not [TS]

  the second book published because that's [TS]

  extra confusing and won the hugo award [TS]

  and he's born his his his his father is [TS]

  gunned down during this rebellion and [TS]

  then his mother gives birth and they [TS]

  have to they're fleeing the you know the [TS]

  troops basically and its really dramatic [TS]

  and it's also very sad because his [TS]

  father doesn't make it out and so that [TS]

  there's the sad introduction to to Ivan [TS]

  and his family too and then he becomes [TS]

  kind of a funny character but but [TS]

  there's this darkness at the you know [TS]

  has his mother is a widow and and and [TS]

  that's all part of his story and in this [TS]

  book they actually have this ceremony at [TS]

  the location where his father was gunned [TS]

  down and you see the side his and his [TS]

  mother who is kind of a comedic figure [TS]

  to UM in most of these books you see her [TS]

  having that taking that time about her [TS]

  husband who's been dead for 35 years or [TS]

  for 40 years and i really like that and [TS]

  again i'm not sure that has any payoff [TS]

  if you haven't read the other books but [TS]

  the power of having read all this [TS]

  material and it's having having them go [TS]

  back there to that Street it is it is [TS]

  really kind of amazing I mean to me it [TS]

  shows the power of a book series and how [TS]

  they they can multiply in a way that a [TS]

  single novel can't like a like a [TS]

  long-running TV show or something you [TS]

  are comic book series right now it's [TS]

  very rewarding to see things that are [TS]

  reference to things that happened a [TS]

  really long time ago you know and to be [TS]

  rewarded for paying attention right you [TS]

  know to think oh yeah I remember that [TS]

  scene you know that i saw that happen [TS]

  yeah there's a plaque on the street [TS]

  where that thing that I saw happen [TS]

  it's now history and I think there is [TS]

  something that is one of the things I [TS]

  love the most about these books is that [TS]

  there are those little things that make [TS]

  it feel like such a fleshed-out world [TS]

  because you're seeing these references [TS]

  to things that happen and you know it is [TS]

  even if it's not as long as that even if [TS]

  the time and are you know between the [TS]

  actual books is not as long as the [TS]

  events that have transpired in them [TS]

  it's still also you know there's a lot [TS]

  of longevity here I mean that you know [TS]

  barrio was published in in 20 years ago [TS]

  so you know even even though it's not [TS]

  you know as long as it is in the books [TS]

  that's still really long time to [TS]

  maintain sort of a whole story and the I [TS]

  mean the entire world still feels very [TS]

  modern in a way or just her her universe [TS]

  like you don't you don't go back to Bari [TS]

  are and look at four patrols Alliance [TS]

  and say oh this material feels really [TS]

  dated like it was written 20 years ago [TS]

  its it flows very very naturally from [TS]

  book to book I don't know if new readers [TS]

  will find Ivan's book is a jumping on [TS]

  point for the series but I definitely [TS]

  think if this is the first book that I [TS]

  picked up i would be interested in [TS]

  reading more by her it's because she has [TS]

  she has such an interesting style even [TS]

  with ivan who is admittedly ivan is the [TS]

  you know the comic relief in the funny [TS]

  character of of the series but her [TS]

  ability to shift between viewpoints and [TS]

  really nail not only the inner monologue [TS]

  of a character and the speaking of a [TS]

  character but just the way chapters are [TS]

  phrased and even sections of chapters [TS]

  are phrase depending on what viewpoint [TS]

  there in she has a remarkable knack for [TS]

  being able to hammer down very specific [TS]

  character types within the within the [TS]

  chapters and within the books and so you [TS]

  immediately know even before there's a [TS]

  he or a she or a thought or you know you [TS]

  immediately know who's narrating that [TS]

  second that chapter or that section of [TS]

  the book because we go back and forth [TS]

  between Ivan and his well his friends [TS]

  just like what rapidly his wife with tej [TS]

  as we say lady for patrolling had [TS]

  maybe Border Patrol we're not gonna try [TS]

  and pronounce her full name [TS]

  no it's a mouthful it's like a lot of [TS]

  Ivan for doing it it's long because it's [TS]

  jacksonian and also see ganden right so [TS]

  it's yeah and also 1001 baby names from [TS]

  older something like that something like [TS]

  that but it is it is cute because you've [TS]

  got the back-and-forth of Ivan [TS]

  intelligence uh perspectives even within [TS]

  chapters though show move back and forth [TS]

  and that's that's part of the finding [TS]

  that it's almost Scott you said it was [TS]

  light I mean it it's almost like [TS]

  watching a Shakespeare comedy in a way [TS]

  because it really is it like i said they [TS]

  don't meet cute they marry cute but it's [TS]

  that same thing right it's like they [TS]

  meet and then there's this marriage that [TS]

  shouldn't have happened but had to [TS]

  happen and then they get to know each [TS]

  other and and and it's inside out seeing [TS]

  each other from one another's eyes is [TS]

  kind of funny seeing bari are from her [TS]

  perspective and also the fact that she's [TS]

  not a she's not a complete innocent [TS]

  because she's part of this family thats [TS]

  the in this in this kind of ruthless [TS]

  Jackson Hole system where there where [TS]

  and and her poor families a real piece [TS]

  of work and it's actually kind of [TS]

  interesting that she's she's kind of the [TS]

  least minneapolis yeah yeah she's sort [TS]

  of a rebel in that she doesn't want to [TS]

  be as awful as some of the other people [TS]

  might be and so it you know it's it's [TS]

  it's funny I like I like you know it is [TS]

  light because that's why I keep coming [TS]

  to the Shakespearean comedy it's like [TS]

  you've got this collection of players [TS]

  and their families on both sides and the [TS]

  family's all have agendas but it's never [TS]

  you know too heavy it's it's much more [TS]

  the kind of the fun of seeing how they [TS]

  all interact and and increasingly bad [TS]

  things happen and but there was resolved [TS]

  there's not a huge amount of Jeopardy I [TS]

  feel there are a couple moments of [TS]

  jeopardy but it's much more kind of [TS]

  light and and fun and then than anything [TS]

  else I think it's funny that you say [TS]

  Shakespearean because I was definitely [TS]

  getting a strong taming of the shrew [TS]

  five in places when I was first starting [TS]

  to read the book while in and civil [TS]

  campaign is also extremely comedy of [TS]

  errors like yeah you know if there's a [TS]

  whole sort of element there you know [TS]

  slap sticky misunderstandings and you [TS]

  know double entendre is in that kind of [TS]

  stuff so you know there's clearly [TS]

  there's clearly a homage to that sort of [TS]

  that sort of storytelling right so let's [TS]

  say I don't know how to proceed from [TS]

  here because ryan hasn't read the rest [TS]

  of the book and has read it and we have [TS]

  half of it yet [TS]

  yes so I I stopped reading so i'll just [TS]

  give you that in advance i stopped [TS]

  reading right as they're arriving on [TS]

  Bari are all right so we can talk about [TS]

  anything before then yeah I assume so I [TS]

  mean barrios a fairly quiet plan suffice [TS]

  it to say that they visit where is [TS]

  father was killed I've given that away [TS]

  now but still it's nice yeah [TS]

  yes I'm sure it is it's a lovely street [TS]

  that there's a plaque so lovely [TS]

  streetwear death and murder once happy [TS]

  yes even ivan was born in like a [TS]

  warehouse nearby so yeah I is today Ivan [TS]

  one of the things I really enjoyed in [TS]

  this book was getting the you get the [TS]

  you get a look at what Ivan does for a [TS]

  living right in this case is he sort of [TS]

  an ad comp to an admiral and he's [TS]

  actually pretty good at his job right [TS]

  like he's basically a glorified you know [TS]

  personal assistant but you get an idea [TS]

  that he's very competent and you know [TS]

  takes a certain amount of pride in his [TS]

  work and even if he's not the you know [TS]

  that you know an insect weasel as you [TS]

  might say with the university like the [TS]

  spies and the security officers running [TS]

  around he's very happy to be doing [TS]

  exactly what he's doing because you know [TS]

  it provides him with just the right [TS]

  amount of work versus responsibility and [TS]

  I think you know it's it's tempting to [TS]

  picture i've been especially from [TS]

  earlier books as kind of a you know [TS]

  layabout ne'er do well and it's it's [TS]

  interesting when you get into his head [TS]

  because he is a very different character [TS]

  than he is then he portrays himself [TS]

  right because he has this whole facade [TS]

  going and so you know in the beginning [TS]

  of this book we get we get a much better [TS]

  idea being inside his head of what his [TS]

  life is actually like and there is i [TS]

  want to do you want to pick out another [TS]

  great line you know this might give [TS]

  something away it's not too much but [TS]

  there's a line later on [TS]

  where I think by rly ask something about [TS]

  like what you you always seem to have [TS]

  all these girlfriends hanging on and he [TS]

  thinks you know so you've been very [TS]

  successful than like what's the secret [TS]

  and he thinks to himself you know nobody [TS]

  ever realizes that if you have a lot of [TS]

  girlfriends and entails break up with a [TS]

  lot of weakness which I thought was a [TS]

  tied-up just a great point at you know [TS]

  this guy who is basically my texts [TS]

  really be considered a womanizer and yet [TS]

  you get the idea that everything is [TS]

  pretty amicable and these things like he [TS]

  has these relationships that disorder [TS]

  don't go anywhere but he's not quite the [TS]

  Playboy that you'd think he was right [TS]

  well you've got a lot of visions of evan [TS]

  from other characters you don't really [TS]

  get him and you get sort of his outside [TS]

  portrayal to other characters and they [TS]

  just they take that image and run with [TS]

  it and that's the only perspective that [TS]

  we see but when you're in Ivan's head [TS]

  all the time it's very easy to see that [TS]

  he's not and he's not a womanizer he's [TS]

  not a slacker [TS]

  he just happens to be a band who you [TS]

  know who's very well-versed in dating [TS]

  and who is very good at his job and just [TS]

  not passionate about advancement I mean [TS]

  there's a thing early on where he's [TS]

  talking about [TS]

  I need to figure out how I can be [TS]

  captain for patrol forever you know he's [TS]

  he's I mean that's really the key and I [TS]

  i didn't get all of this i think there's [TS]

  some insight that I got into this [TS]

  character that I didn't get from all [TS]

  these other books which is he is quite [TS]

  actively evading everything right [TS]

  he's evading long-term relationships [TS]

  with women he's not just having lots of [TS]

  relationships with women he's evading [TS]

  marrying all right yeah right [TS]

  he's evading a sec which it you know [TS]

  which he could work in and in fact in [TS]

  this book that there's a there's sort of [TS]

  a you could come work at him second he's [TS]

  like no no I don't want to do that [TS]

  that's what miles did I don't want to be [TS]

  that and then there's this other thing [TS]

  which is that because of his family up [TS]

  until Emperor Gregor had kids he was [TS]

  potentially politically if something [TS]

  happened [TS]

  regular or if there was a rebellion of [TS]

  some kind of a possible Emperor right [TS]

  he's he's third in line yeah he's got [TS]

  it's basically arrow miles and him yet [TS]

  so he's he and he doesn't want any of [TS]

  that either so he wants to be it was to [TS]

  do a good job he wants to live his life [TS]

  and have a good time but more than [TS]

  anything else he doesn't want what all [TS]

  these other people who are characters in [TS]

  books in this series have he doesn't [TS]

  want to be the Imperial security expert [TS]

  he doesn't want to have the rollicking [TS]

  miles adventures he doesn't want to be [TS]

  the Emperor or or beam you know married [TS]

  into all the bar erm politics and family [TS]

  you know connections and things like [TS]

  that he just doesn't want to do that he [TS]

  wants he's independent but he's not [TS]

  independent in a kind of brash i'm gonna [TS]

  live my own life kind of watch me i'm a [TS]

  rebel he's that he's like the other one [TS]

  which is I'm just going to fade away I [TS]

  want to fade away into the woodwork and [TS]

  not be bothered [TS]

  leave me alone he doesn't want to be [TS]

  noticed and I mean if we look at what [TS]

  happens to the people in this series who [TS]

  do get noticed they get put in grave [TS]

  danger and I did show occasionally yeah [TS]

  come back to life [TS]

  I mean first you look at ya frozen [TS]

  garden and every time I over and [TS]

  involves I've been in one of his [TS]

  adventures bad things and if yes [TS]

  you can't believe no no it makes perfect [TS]

  sense for I've into one has been proven [TS]

  right well I think that's why we all [TS]

  feel so sympathetic to the right we see [TS]

  the fact that is dragged into these [TS]

  things that get poor Ivan that's that's [TS]

  the third right you know i would I [TS]

  remember talking about this with my my [TS]

  cousin who is the person who introduced [TS]

  me to the books are just sit around and [TS]

  chat about the books and and she would [TS]

  always say poor Ivan you get when he's [TS]

  gonna find a girl [TS]

  well hey maybe we have a sister that's [TS]

  what his mother was asking all right [TS]

  when you have any other thoughts about [TS]

  the book that you'd like to share before [TS]

  we hang up on you and then spoil what [TS]

  happens only that there's a lovely [TS]

  little moment or we get to see Ivan sort [TS]

  of not necessarily dedication to work [TS]

  but his general idea of a workday which [TS]

  is his sorting the snakes sexually and I [TS]

  just I find that very charming [TS]

  it's a lovely little determine of ya [TS]

  yes very snake-charming I i really like [TS]

  that that part and and see the fact that [TS]

  he's gone so far into the metaphor as to [TS]

  create different categories of sparing [TS]

  poisonous snakes yes that that his [TS]

  Admiral has to deal with so I found that [TS]

  very nice i'm looking forward to redress [TS]

  the book and now I will leave you to go [TS]

  do that and you guys can talk and spoil [TS]

  everything you listen to the rest of the [TS]

  podcast but when you're done [TS]

  yes alright well bid you all right [TS]

  thanks for thanks for being on MH [TS]

  goodbye goodbye live from disneyland [TS]

  that was no with 67 she's home from [TS]

  disneyland that was certainly Caldwell [TS]

  hey we can spoil everything else today [TS]

  so in the end and you wouldn't have seen [TS]

  it coming in the end these two crazy [TS]

  kids who got married for expedient [TS]

  reasons end up falling in love and [TS]

  decided to stay together after all [TS]

  wait i thought they thought they [TS]

  accidentally each committed suicide [TS]

  thinking that the other was already haha [TS]

  yes the common mistake [TS]

  it does it does happen free shakespeare [TS]

  in there too you know one of that one of [TS]

  the scenes that made me laugh the most [TS]

  was the scene where they're going to the [TS]

  to the the Lord who's the judge who's [TS]

  going to unmarry them [TS]

  yeah and they're like it'll be easy it's [TS]

  holiday it's all formality and I'm [TS]

  sitting there going guys do not know [TS]

  you're in a book this this is not gonna [TS]

  go this is not gonna go well I also like [TS]

  that that's done for almost no reason [TS]

  like other than just that characters [TS]

  like man I just gotta want to screw with [TS]

  you [TS]

  no no it's because it's because of [TS]

  Ivan's mom because again they're all [TS]

  related because they're all part of the [TS]

  same family Ivan's mom calls him in [TS]

  advance and says don't let them not get [TS]

  married I think that's that it's in [TS]

  there it's like right to my mother [TS]

  yes I did talk to mother know my mother [TS]

  won't let me not be married exactly but [TS]

  it's again it's it's not i don't know [TS]

  it's one of those things that it's not [TS]

  exactly contrived but it feels like I [TS]

  think that's gonna done kind of [TS]

  capriciously [TS]

  yeah even with his mother doing us being [TS]

  like it's time it's time that you [TS]

  learned a few things [TS]

  yeah but again it's just all from its [TS]

  done for Laughs I mean because of the [TS]

  characters are like oh yeah we've got [TS]

  this lockdown and and the other as the [TS]

  audience you're not meant to think of [TS]

  this is a plot twist right it's it's [TS]

  it's really wanna go man [TS]

  here we go yeah I know what's coming [TS]

  here and it's funny I was annoyed about [TS]

  generally like i said i enjoyed the book [TS]

  I was annoyed that there's a character [TS]

  with a nickname by because that just [TS]

  confused me every time ever it maybe [TS]

  just I'm just stupid but I was confused [TS]

  i thought why is the sentence start with [TS]

  x and then I'm gonna go it's the guy's [TS]

  name it so nice is by early for routier [TS]

  I'm richer [TS]

  yeah yeah who's related to a terrible [TS]

  there is a virtue earlier who's a [TS]

  horrible character right [TS]

  oh there's there's many many right but [TS]

  he's an ass exception because people [TS]

  think he is but he's not yeah of course [TS]

  he turns out to be someone more [TS]

  conscientious another playboy who [TS]

  yeah and in a Shakespeare kind of [TS]

  fashion again you have the second couple [TS]

  stories are happening in the background [TS]

  of the first couple with that it's [TS]

  probably not just Shakespeare you know [TS]

  it's also like a forest kind of [TS]

  construction but you've got you've got [TS]

  buy-in rich and he keeps trying to plant [TS]

  bugs on her [TS]

  yes because he's trying to spy on on on [TS]

  her and so she can of course she keeps [TS]

  finding them and disabling them but [TS]

  they're in love [TS]

  anyway it's been nice what yes so what's [TS]

  what's interesting about this book is [TS]

  that you know what you get about I would [TS]

  say about what sixty percent the way [TS]

  through and it does take a left turn [TS]

  right because we start we moved from [TS]

  being this thing that's purely about a [TS]

  comedy to there's a there's a plot [TS]

  yes I was something has to happen [TS]

  something must happen I mean I i would [TS]

  happily have read and continue reading [TS]

  the book just watching i begin 21 [TS]

  trouble after another but i understand [TS]

  that that's not necessarily compelling [TS]

  for everybody actually one of the things [TS]

  I appreciate about but this plot is that [TS]

  the plot was not I thought this was [TS]

  going to be that they escaped to Bari [TS]

  are and then the bad people who are [TS]

  trying to kill her family do something [TS]

  and get them in trouble and they have to [TS]

  sit saver and it was [TS]

  going to be that was going to be what it [TS]

  was it was connected by a little bit [TS]

  paint-by-numbers yeah I i just i was [TS]

  concerned that it was gonna be one of [TS]

  those things and instead again she goes [TS]

  for the family drama thing where her [TS]

  family shows up and they're awful [TS]

  they're awful people not all there i [TS]

  mean they're they're in nature of their [TS]

  circumstance right well they're there [TS]

  they're from Jackson's hole and they're [TS]

  also saw the schemers and they're also [TS]

  on the run so they're desperate right [TS]

  and they have this they have this plan [TS]

  to go look for a volt yes with the [TS]

  treasure basically buried treasure under [TS]

  bar er which leads to more laughter when [TS]

  it's discovered that the buried treasure [TS]

  is under the massive spy complex at the [TS]

  heart of the Empire just where you want [TS]

  to go digging which I which is great [TS]

  it's one of those it again it is a [TS]

  farcical I move right because it's like [TS]

  oh well this won't be too much trouble [TS]

  we'll just find this old vault that the [TS]

  grandmother used to work at during the [TS]

  occupation and we'll just dig it up and [TS]

  we'll be on our way [TS]

  oh yes can you tell you here's this [TS]

  building that i would like to see where [TS]

  that was can you take me there and they [TS]

  go to their ugly building next to it so [TS]

  that's that Imperial security [TS]

  headquarters [TS]

  oh it's going to be hard yeah yeah and [TS]

  then they they hit the end so then [TS]

  there's a so you've got the the family [TS]

  dynamics because Ted is not really well [TS]

  treated by her family she's the little [TS]

  she's a little list you know she's the [TS]

  youngest and she's it the least kind of [TS]

  like likely to become a double-crossing [TS]

  trader person and she's married a guy [TS]

  from a backwater planet [TS]

  yeah oh the who is a the embarrassment [TS]

  noble but but potentially in line for [TS]

  the throne so maybe at the end but you [TS]

  might be able to lie I have to say I [TS]

  really enjoyed her father [TS]

  oh yeah the expired who is somehow [TS]

  stumbled into you know he married into [TS]

  the being becoming a barren right yeah [TS]

  of a small jacksonian family but he's [TS]

  got i really enjoy him because even [TS]

  though he is scheming he loves his [TS]

  daughters he loves young way that his [TS]

  wife does not right and he's also he's [TS]

  arranged [TS]

  he's very jolly he's very kind of bluff [TS]

  and you know [TS]

  unassuming to a certain extent was just [TS]

  like you know this is my thing I do my [TS]

  thing and the end and that you know runs [TS]

  up against one of my other favorite [TS]

  bujold characters to make an appearance [TS]

  here who is Simon million the former [TS]

  head of the Imperial Security Service [TS]

  what the hell Simon with hello Simon who [TS]

  basically engages in a bet with him that [TS]

  he can't break into the vaults rather [TS]

  than actually alerting security they [TS]

  make a bet [TS]

  I mean I just love the idea that you [TS]

  know you've got Simon who you know [TS]

  famously an in-memory which is my [TS]

  favorite book in the series loses the [TS]

  memory chip that he has in his head that [TS]

  basically gives him perfect recall and [TS]

  so becomes everyone sort of thinks of is [TS]

  becoming this daughter an old clueless [TS]

  guy when in fact yeah he's got some [TS]

  memory problems but he's really sharp [TS]

  still right you know he's still he's [TS]

  still a clever guy because he was in [TS]

  charge of the spy service for you know [TS]

  decades and but you get the impression [TS]

  that he's he's bored right like that's [TS]

  all there is to it is just he is bored [TS]

  with having this life where he just got [TS]

  he's basically so he's a sort of you [TS]

  know tired sort of tired he's not [TS]

  married to ivans mother but there's kind [TS]

  of this year they're living there living [TS]

  together basically and what we learned [TS]

  from this is that is that he he's better [TS]

  off better than he's letting on and that [TS]

  he actually you know there may be more [TS]

  for him to do in his life right hehe is [TS]

  kind of come to grips which is also nice [TS]

  because having read if you again the [TS]

  richness of having read these other [TS]

  books have read memory you know kind of [TS]

  the story with this character is gone [TS]

  and this is almost you know there's some [TS]

  Redemption happening here where is like [TS]

  you know you know I'm not useless I've [TS]

  got I just because i don't have the [TS]

  perfect memory anymore their stuff i can [TS]

  do i can play a part in all of this and [TS]

  he does right and it's nice to get a [TS]

  view of him that is not colored by him [TS]

  being sort of forced to be miles boss [TS]

  yeah and having to be the pushback the [TS]

  straight man sort of 22 miles of schemes [TS]

  yeah exactly and so in this time he gets [TS]

  a chance to sort of cut loose a little [TS]

  bit and and play it play it fast and [TS]

  loose [TS]

  which works out not-so-great yeah yeah [TS]

  so what's that mean again it's this plot [TS]

  the way that it goes you get the family [TS]

  dynamic and then you get this heist [TS]

  thing right where they're they're going [TS]

  to pull off the heist it's totally not [TS]

  what i expected going to pull off the [TS]

  heist and under the under the insect [TS]

  headquarters and and they and then [TS]

  there's you know there's like the [TS]

  biological weapon of the burrowing stuff [TS]

  that they would you want to dig when you [TS]

  can just unleash this untested organism [TS]

  that will eat the dirt for you [TS]

  what could go wrong yeah well you don't [TS]

  you can't dig because the sensors will [TS]

  pick it up but that organism we'll just [TS]

  yeah and so that leads and then yes [TS]

  there is a double-cross and and and all [TS]

  that but you never really get I I you [TS]

  know he's never really get a sense the [TS]

  characters think they're in danger but [TS]

  no nobody else does write the readers [TS]

  don't think they're really in danger now [TS]

  it's it's one of those is one of those [TS]

  plots where you know everybody will make [TS]

  it out in the end it's not that kind of [TS]

  book right you know the tone is set if [TS]

  they'd taken a left turn it really had [TS]

  become become something where lives are [TS]

  at stake right like that wouldn't have [TS]

  worked it would have felt strangely it [TS]

  would have felt contrived and it would [TS]

  have felt like oh yeah you're just [TS]

  trying to make this more interesting [TS]

  book week it so it's you know it's a [TS]

  romp yeah and there's nothing wrong I [TS]

  mean that that's actually one of the [TS]

  things that I found really charming [TS]

  about it is that it's nice to read a [TS]

  story like this i ated been a little [TS]

  while before i read a book that I just [TS]

  wanted to rip through as fast as i can [TS]

  and am I we were talking about this that [TS]

  you want to read it and then you you [TS]

  also keep saying to yourself never [TS]

  slowed down because there's not going to [TS]

  be another one of these books for years [TS]

  so i gotta slow down and enjoy my time [TS]

  with this and yet i really wanted to [TS]

  just keep on I want to keep on going [TS]

  because it was so much fun just to do [TS]

  you mean it's a rob it is it was just [TS]

  it's fun and it's like 10 slow down her [TS]

  sling it out as we as i went to just [TS]

  sort of try and make sure that I you [TS]

  know could read it over at least you [TS]

  know a week or two so the headquarters [TS]

  building collapses at the end which the [TS]

  final I I thought wishes down into the [TS]

  mud [TS]

  I thought that was hilarious be like as [TS]

  soon as a couple because they keep going [TS]

  on about and then special assignment who [TS]

  is like god I thought this is the [TS]

  ugliest building ever i really just I [TS]

  tried to get ready get a reply [TS]

  under your budget whereas you in and so [TS]

  it's and it's the setup is perfect and [TS]

  not really thinking about that and [TS]

  they're like they've been taking away [TS]

  and then they have to go get trapped in [TS]

  there and they have to dig them out and [TS]

  then everyone's like how great we we did [TS]

  everything and it's a great scene with [TS]

  Gregor like I don't really look at this [TS]

  building it seems kind of tilted to the [TS]

  whole thing just comes down and and [TS]

  Simon is like really likes start [TS]

  laughing out [TS]

  yeah haha she's that was i couldnae the [TS]

  picture by head was just so vivid that I [TS]

  is great [TS]

  Gregor get some nice pieces in here too [TS]

  it's nice to see him as you know [TS]

  grown-up and and being all you know [TS]

  Imperial my bad shape right competent [TS]

  and he just he's clearly he's clearly [TS]

  the best i think they sort of alluded to [TS]

  this in some of the previous you know [TS]

  books but he's clearly the right guy for [TS]

  the yeah right you know he knows what [TS]

  he's doing that's one of the things I [TS]

  liked about the previous books is that [TS]

  is that we start with kind of an insane [TS]

  Emperor and you thinking you know it's [TS]

  going to be one of those things it's [TS]

  gonna be like Joffrey and Game of [TS]

  Thrones right where you're like oh geez [TS]

  things are gonna go really bad when this [TS]

  kid is the Emperor and it turns out [TS]

  actually that unlike most of the rest of [TS]

  his family [TS]

  Gregor is a you know he gets through and [TS]

  is and is a good Emperor and does a good [TS]

  job and and mostly because miles is dad [TS]

  was you know a good Guardian and and [TS]

  helped you know steer him in the right [TS]

  direction but he's also a good person [TS]

  who's the right guy for the job right [TS]

  yeah I like that part I like that I like [TS]

  that we do get to see miles briefly it's [TS]

  nice to that we get a that we get a [TS]

  cameo from him that that doesn't manage [TS]

  to overwhelm the book [TS]

  why do we see him I don't think he's at [TS]

  the he's at the advice in the dinner [TS]

  they come to that they come to see [TS]

  Gregor at his house and we get him and [TS]

  Catherine we're chasing the kids around [TS]

  gray have you know we have a brief scene [TS]

  and we have a lot of scenes were miles [TS]

  is like laughing you know into his into [TS]

  his hand at at the kind of stuff is [TS]

  going [TS]

  there's also a lot of talk around miles [TS]

  because sure there's this there's the [TS]

  suggested earlier on [TS]

  there's the part where you know tester [TS]

  someone remembers this one that you know [TS]

  the house that gets taken down by this [TS]

  one room [TS]

  guiyang like that that smile weird about [TS]

  yes [TS]

  yeah it's like it's nice to see all the [TS]

  things like because they they echo [TS]

  there's a lot of stuff from previous [TS]

  books that echoes through that again is [TS]

  rewarding even if its and it plays into [TS]

  a way that makes sense right guys we [TS]

  know that was miles to take down but we [TS]

  never get a point at which he's like oh [TS]

  yeah that was me i took this pic this [TS]

  house like right like she acts sort of [TS]

  realistically like he was a spy right he [TS]

  was working undercover so he's not gonna [TS]

  he's killed sort of alluded to having [TS]

  been there but you know he's not going [TS]

  to talk about what he did we get the [TS]

  stuff where I like the bits were where [TS]

  you know I've been talking about being [TS]

  on set ganda yeah and kind of impresses [TS]

  the grandmother you know with the fact [TS]

  that he's like oh well you've actually [TS]

  you know been to my home world and met [TS]

  all they'd be high class [TS]

  yeah the the whole ladies and all that [TS]

  right where all the ladies are in the [TS]

  bubbles right and so in that stuff plays [TS]

  in right you know there's there's [TS]

  references that that helped remind you [TS]

  that the stuff that would logically come [TS]

  up in these conversations because we've [TS]

  seen them happen actually do come up [TS]

  because that is one of those things that [TS]

  frustrates me when I read and like [TS]

  someone up to sleep doesn't remember [TS]

  something that clearly they should [TS]

  remember you know you're reading a book [TS]

  and they're like oh but you know who [TS]

  clearly remember that you know [TS]

  oh and again Skywalker c-3po you that [TS]

  never came up again now so and i like [TS]

  that so you know it sounds so Scott you [TS]

  said you you would necessarily have read [TS]

  other books in the series if it had been [TS]

  your first but that because you've read [TS]

  the others you this is very complicated [TS]

  but you liked it [TS]

  yes I i did like it i mean i know in our [TS]

  last podcast i complained about how I [TS]

  thought miles was an annoying character [TS]

  right reading this book made me [TS]

  appreciate miles as a character because [TS]

  I he is much more active so is not [TS]

  really you guys we talked about ivan is [TS]

  not looking for adventure he is not he [TS]

  doesn't want to be the center of [TS]

  attention which makes him an interesting [TS]

  character when there's somebody who is [TS]

  doing stuff and so stuff happens Ivan [TS]

  which is ok funny but I don't [TS]

  it was a quick read it was fun I like [TS]

  the characters [TS]

  she's good writer I just obviously i [TS]

  don't i don't know i don't think i've [TS]

  been can carry another book this is like [TS]

  the most momentous thing that ever [TS]

  happens dive and that doesn't involve [TS]

  miles right i mean that's sort of the [TS]

  sense i get as well but there was that [TS]

  time where you know how did you two meet [TS]

  right it's like well okay this is how [TS]

  how how what is how i met your mother [TS]

  what would it take for Ivan to to get [TS]

  married and this is the answer this is [TS]

  the book that answers that it's a series [TS]

  of ridiculous event would have to do it [TS]

  by accident [TS]

  yeah right that's the only way it would [TS]

  work and and yeah I don't think I expect [TS]

  there to be many look I don't I read [TS]

  another book I mean I i look forward to [TS]

  seeing him in a future book as a side [TS]

  character but I I oh yeah I think he's a [TS]

  great character but he's not a main [TS]

  character so Dan you said that a at lois [TS]

  mcmaster Pujols reading she said you [TS]

  said to me privately not in a previous [TS]

  episode that she is working on something [TS]

  involving miles [TS]

  yeah there's a she's writing a novella [TS]

  to be released it i think someone in [TS]

  determining point but she read the first [TS]

  sort of section of a mini novel is it [TS]

  isn't set after cranbourne know it is [TS]

  set before crime as this we should [TS]

  mention this is also set before cry burn [TS]

  so so we're going with you know she's [TS]

  right again continues to write out of [TS]

  sequence and ending in cryo burn you [TS]

  know some momentous things happen at the [TS]

  very end and at that you really should [TS]

  know about because if you're listening [TS]

  to this you really must have read it [TS]

  right but I'm she doesn't seem to get [TS]

  it's interesting because it's I wonder [TS]

  she said before that she felt like that [TS]

  was in some ways the end of miles a [TS]

  story and so it's interesting that maybe [TS]

  she's yeah she's writing in coloring in [TS]

  other corners again and I think you let [TS]

  you know as without many other writers [TS]

  who have hurt a thing well you know if [TS]

  the idea comes to me and I find [TS]

  something I want to write about that i [TS]

  will write another story but you know [TS]

  i'm not planning necessarily to to write [TS]

  something else and so I think this story [TS]

  takes place i don't i don't know what [TS]

  the entire thrust of it is i can tell [TS]

  you that the section that she read deals [TS]

  with [TS]

  as you write might remember there's the [TS]

  section of there's the land that miles [TS]

  owns that's all radioactive right and so [TS]

  should you it deals with them trying to [TS]

  use the do you remember the bugs from [TS]

  civil contain the butter trying to get [TS]

  them to eat up all the radiator [TS]

  irradiated or at least they're testing [TS]

  them and trying to get them to eat [TS]

  irradiated stuff and clean it out [TS]

  basically [TS]

  so that's what the whole first service [TS]

  section deals with a trip that he and [TS]

  Katherine and turnover if there's [TS]

  someone else in there will regain the [TS]

  scientist who developed the bugs are [TS]

  sort of tailing and seeing how this put [TS]

  how this project is going i feel like [TS]

  there are lots of stories for her to [TS]

  tell that don't involve miles in this [TS]

  universe that our little sitting out [TS]

  there there are lots of questions about [TS]

  what miles is clone brother Mark is [TS]

  doing [TS]

  yep with his girlfriend yet he gets a [TS]

  couple nods in this book I like [TS]

  preemptively that he behind that he buys [TS]

  em sexo you can show that you're into a [TS]

  boat [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah look like a themed hotel [TS]

  you can stay the night at one of the [TS]

  interrogation cells that's that's really [TS]

  fun i feel like there's there's some [TS]

  stuff to be told there and I also kind [TS]

  of feel like she keeps hinting that [TS]

  there's a story about arrow and Cordelia [TS]

  yeah answer gr surgery circular this [TS]

  this barren planet that they're going to [TS]

  where he is the Viceroy because we've [TS]

  seen them kind of flipped in and out of [TS]

  there but we haven't I don't think we [TS]

  haven't seen them at all since the Civil [TS]

  campaign i think is the last time they [TS]

  actually appear right but they're [TS]

  clearly you know they're there multiple [TS]

  references to other their kind of [TS]

  enjoying their semi-retirement yeah yeah [TS]

  but so I feel like that you know there [TS]

  are other characters that you know Ivan [TS]

  decide that that would be interesting [TS]

  for her to write things about AI guess [TS]

  you know in the end she just has to come [TS]

  up with a story that she thinks it's [TS]

  worth writing but it's encouraging when [TS]

  I saw her at a world con last year you [TS]

  know i got it felt to me like she wasn't [TS]

  gonna write miles stuff again and that [TS]

  ivan was her chance to play in this [TS]

  universe without mile so it really [TS]

  encouraging that she's reading this [TS]

  novel [TS]

  la involving miles and maybe what she's [TS]

  really saying is that she's having a [TS]

  hard time seeing how she writes beyond [TS]

  the end of crying over and although i [TS]

  find that funny because I actually have [TS]

  always assumed that the natural capstone [TS]

  of this entire thing this entire story [TS]

  is that miles goes back to to Bari r and [TS]

  ends up basically being the advisor you [TS]

  know that the number one adviser to the [TS]

  Emperor just like his dad was right and [TS]

  I mean and that and because we get a [TS]

  whole bunch of the series of his life [TS]

  where he's in all these different roles [TS]

  where he's in all these different roles [TS]

  right you know whether it be Admiral [TS]

  Naismith or you know Lord Lieutenant [TS]

  Burk goes again or Lord auditor virgos [TS]

  again and so there is the issue of well [TS]

  what does you know count miles for music [TS]

  in you know look like as a character [TS]

  count miles were closed again and [TS]

  Emperor Gregor you know as older fellows [TS]

  with family you know I i would love to [TS]

  see as a cap stone you know a last book [TS]

  chronologically in this series [TS]

  I'd like to see that i'd like to see [TS]

  something that almost brings it all the [TS]

  way back around where there are new [TS]

  things happening with with the with [TS]

  their families but they are now in that [TS]

  in that you know high-level strategic [TS]

  role and see something that like that [TS]

  level at the level of the Emperor what [TS]

  is the Emperor of this empire that it [TS]

  with many planets and and relations with [TS]

  all of these different powers [TS]

  how does that work and what is that like [TS]

  especially when if miles kids if they're [TS]

  anything like him are Haring off doing [TS]

  crazy things right [TS]

  oh yeah exactly i I she may be going [TS]

  there eventually but that's the one [TS]

  thing that i would kind of like to see [TS]

  even mile stories basically done [TS]

  I'd like to see that kind of capstone of [TS]

  him growing up all the way and being [TS]

  like his dad basically after all of this [TS]

  time and I think that his hit the death [TS]

  of his father at the end of cryo weren't [TS]

  there I said who is which happens [TS]

  off-screen he's his old and he had her [TS]

  head like medical problems you know was [TS]

  not unexpected but to the reader i guess [TS]

  but it was unexpected two miles [TS]

  I i like to see that last threshold [TS]

  crossed and and sort of see that you [TS]

  know his dad's gone he's now account [TS]

  Gregor's been on the throne for a long [TS]

  time and what's that like we're miles [TS]

  has to like be responsible in a way that [TS]

  he's nice and he's got kids and he's [TS]

  married in a way that he never had to [TS]

  before but I don't know so it is great i [TS]

  hope she keeps keeps writing this stuff [TS]

  because they're fun and the universe is [TS]

  really just so deep and the characters [TS]

  are great that that the more the better [TS]

  i think i agree yeah yeah i really [TS]

  enjoyed this more than any book in this [TS]

  series sense [TS]

  I love civil campaign maybe yeah [TS]

  diplomatic immunity is not my favorite [TS]

  it was it was the one that came out [TS]

  right after I so I read the entire [TS]

  series and the diplomatic community came [TS]

  out like right after I finished reading [TS]

  everything up to that point and it was [TS]

  kind of a it was kind of a letdown for [TS]

  me it was not my favorite because in [TS]

  part because we just left a single [TS]

  campaign which is so it has so much [TS]

  stuff in it and it's so that's the pace [TS]

  of it is so you know fast and involves [TS]

  so many characters that we know and we [TS]

  love and then we get thrown away into [TS]

  this entirely different realm where we [TS]

  don't really know most of the characters [TS]

  and so it's like leaving the comfort of [TS]

  your own and and I felt like you know I [TS]

  I was not as engaged cry Auburn had [TS]

  things that I liked in it but it was not [TS]

  yeah it wasn't my favorite yeah when [TS]

  they it wasn't bad it just it we talked [TS]

  about crime on the hugo show we talked [TS]

  about crabber into and I you know I [TS]

  think we also it's not it's not bad but [TS]

  it was you know it's tough to stack up [TS]

  against there are so many books in the [TS]

  series that are really yeah good yeah [TS]

  oh and and so what I'd say about about [TS]

  this book is I thought this book was way [TS]

  better than cry Auburn and better than [TS]

  diplomatic immunity I mean by by a long [TS]

  shot [TS]

  yeah and and that's good that's kinda [TS]

  sort of unexpected was nice because it [TS]

  gave it it was it was it was an [TS]

  opportunity I think to break the mold a [TS]

  bit too right oh yeah [TS]

  by doing Ivan and by doing something [TS]

  that's a little bit lighter it was an [TS]

  opportunity to go outside the formula [TS]

  that I think we've dealt with miles now [TS]

  which is Miles go somewhere there's you [TS]

  know may happen and problems and he sort [TS]

  of gets himself in trouble then gets [TS]

  himself out of trouble and gets really [TS]

  clever and solves their reading and [TS]

  writing burn was different because it [TS]

  was trying to tell a story about miles [TS]

  from somebody else's perspective so that [TS]

  you've got to see what how other people [TS]

  see miles but you know this with this [TS]

  was a this was a better book so i assume [TS]

  it'll just get nominated for hugo award [TS]

  because they all do now and then we will [TS]

  we will have read it for the big Hugo or [TS]

  podcast [TS]

  yeah maybe this time I'll get around to [TS]

  reading the rest of the people in the [TS]

  future who have been instructed by [TS]

  ourselves in the future to refer back to [TS]

  this episode because this is where we [TS]

  talked about that episode that's gonna [TS]

  get nominated in the summer of 2013 for [TS]

  the hugo hi everybody in 2013 [TS]

  we're listening thanks for coming back [TS]

  to our episode from 2012 i hope you're [TS]

  enjoying your jet packs in the future [TS]

  yeah yeah and i hope i don't have to [TS]

  read the third mirror granted got [TS]

  nominated I can't believe it i hope lot [TS]

  i hope not [TS]

  it's gonna be okay you guys gonna be [TS]

  okay I hope so thanks for sharing me [TS]

  there dan I'm I'm here for you [TS]

  well this is book club two weeks in a [TS]

  row how about that crazy we should stop [TS]

  reading stuff [TS]

  yeah seriously quit over as here so I i [TS]

  what am i doing i I'm trying to reading [TS]

  I'm trying to read what we you know we [TS]

  we did this a week ago so what are we [TS]

  reading anything different [TS]

  I want to finish the capital patrols [TS]

  total is which I was really big and [TS]

  finish the book i was really and read [TS]

  another wow I don't know what's got it [TS]

  was really her through uh lost in a good [TS]

  book on thursday next novel who struggle [TS]

  struggle struggle i am kind of [TS]

  struggling and it's not really going [TS]

  very well for me but you know maybe [TS]

  it'll pick up its otherwise his his a [TS]

  his character names make me laugh and [TS]

  laugh and laugh because they're so [TS]

  ridiculous I feel like just before word [TS]

  is the kind of author that you will [TS]

  immediately like or immediately dislike [TS]

  well that hasn't happened with me either [TS]

  one either way I've in the dyno that it [TS]

  was a glen cir trying to read it yet but [TS]

  it was just super wow I'm surprised I i [TS]

  really enjoy i really like to ask for a [TS]

  lot i know i'm i'm on the fence about [TS]

  just I think I've read everything that [TS]

  he is written while even his letters [TS]

  private letters do I read his email [TS]

  well already started his tweets amazing [TS]

  tweets as well enjoy his tweets about [TS]

  enjoying screams with all their yes [TS]

  hotel carpet picture skirt is a very [TS]

  strange man [TS]

  yes Bob and I am reading i have either [TS]

  of you read this [TS]

  the sci-fi series The Lost [TS]

  sweet by Jack Campbell oh I have a [TS]

  couple of those books that have already [TS]

  know i think i have one of those but i [TS]

  haven't read it it's interesting it's I [TS]

  like the premise a lot i am i'm curious [TS]

  to see if as the book and I guess this [TS]

  is a longer series will see you have a [TS]

  if I finished the first book if I'm [TS]

  compelled to go on to the rest of the [TS]

  books in the series has in trouble with [TS]

  the writing in the first book though it [TS]

  is very much like you know it's clearly [TS]

  something sort of action-packed and [TS]

  designed to get you like sucked in [TS]

  but having come right off of Captain [TS]

  Border Patrol's Alliance eat you know it [TS]

  was kind of like looking at it two books [TS]

  and being like these are not necessarily [TS]

  the same caliber I just I i had real [TS]

  trouble with the beginning of this book [TS]

  because I felt like all the characters [TS]

  were talking to each other and they were [TS]

  all saying exactly what they mean like [TS]

  little words like people don't people [TS]

  don't do that people don't talk like you [TS]

  know right that that straightforwardly [TS]

  so we'll see i'm still reading it I will [TS]

  finish it and see see if I'm compelled [TS]

  to go on is apparently a quite lengthy [TS]

  series Scott uh what what should I read [TS]

  next I have on my kindle right now I [TS]

  have never wear by Neil Gaiman I have [TS]

  considered officially bus carefully [TS]

  since ye and Wang's well I've ever both [TS]

  and i have good omens by Neil Gaiman [TS]

  I've read all three if you read all [TS]

  three of those as well I didn't ask you [TS]

  dad [TS]

  no I got you down I'd read all three of [TS]

  those which I read next of those three i [TS]

  would pick consider of feel however slay [TS]

  bus syllabus because i love the culture [TS]

  books are and it is the 25th anniversary [TS]

  of the culture series so you can read [TS]

  and enjoy the ship names [TS]

  ok which is you and dan do you agree or [TS]

  disagree that I like the culture [TS]