The Incomparable

105: That Mr. Hitler Seems Nice

 

  the incomparable podcast number 105 [TS]

  September's went well [TS]

  welcome back to the uncomfortable [TS]

  podcast I'm your host Jason snow and I'm [TS]

  convening another edition of our book [TS]

  club we are going to be talking about [TS]

  trilogy of books by sci-fi writer I [TS]

  guess I fine fancy writer John Walton [TS]

  who we love [TS]

  we recommended her book among others [TS]

  extremely highly and and now we're going [TS]

  to talk about this trilogy of books set [TS]

  in an alternate history universe in the [TS]

  aftermath of world war two joining me [TS]

  today are the very well-read Scott [TS]

  McNulty hi Scott [TS]

  hello to a diary it's good to be here [TS]

  does it make you feel good that every [TS]

  everything you say you know is going to [TS]

  cause extra work for that poor guy who's [TS]

  trying to make a supercut of everything [TS]

  you've ever said on the uncomfortable I [TS]

  feel very very sorry for him [TS]

  I don't know he volunteered to do it yes [TS]

  its own fault you you do your own grave [TS]

  mr. yeah exactly right and now that will [TS]

  be in there because every time you talk [TS]

  it's more work for him just talking on [TS]

  also joining us Dan Morgan hi Dan hi [TS]

  Jason [TS]

  nobody's trying to make a super kind of [TS]

  anything I've said and that's probably [TS]

  good thought well i would say it would [TS]

  take too long [TS]

  I mean the whole premise is god is he [TS]

  doesn't say very much i like to think [TS]

  that if you put all of Scots appearances [TS]

  together they actually do create some [TS]

  sort of cohesive old that possibly [TS]

  causes your brain to melt from the [TS]

  inside out [TS]

  he's playing a long game is very though [TS]

  i have no evidence to prove it now dan [TS]

  you've only read two of these books [TS]

  correct and a half [TS]

  alright so halfway through the third [TS]

  book we're going to kick you off I [TS]

  thought it was called half-a-crown for a [TS]

  reason you've only read a quarter of the [TS]

  crown wasn't whole around [TS]

  also joining us Glen fleischmann hi [TS]

  Glenn I i I've tried whole crowd but [TS]

  it's too rich we had to go to [TS]

  half-a-crown because no lactose [TS]

  intolerant interesting that's a little [TS]

  too much information but thank you very [TS]

  much [TS]

  I'm glad you're with us and you can play [TS]

  here and also serenity Caldwell hello [TS]

  hello i have read all of the English [TS]

  currency books [TS]

  well the ones that exist that's good all [TS]

  three of the ones that have been [TS]

  published anyway we will fire off the [TS]

  spoiler horn as we go [TS]

  so that you can if you have not read all [TS]

  these books and you want a you want to [TS]

  tune out at any point will let you will [TS]

  will give you some warning but to get [TS]

  started maybe before we file off fire [TS]

  off the spoiler horn i should i should [TS]

  explain the first novel farthing before [TS]

  we give away too much about it it starts [TS]

  at one of the things I really like about [TS]

  this book when I describe this to other [TS]

  people is that it it has a great setup [TS]

  it starts out as essentially chase you [TS]

  know an Agatha Christie novel in a [TS]

  slightly alternate universe and I [TS]

  thought that was very funny the idea of [TS]

  doing an all universe you know a an [TS]

  alternate history [TS]

  Agatha Christie novel and for a while [TS]

  that's what it is and then it suddenly [TS]

  is not that anymore but I i thought that [TS]

  was a great a great without giving too [TS]

  much away until we find out the spoiler [TS]

  horn and a nice setup that you you think [TS]

  you're reading one book going into it I [TS]

  really didn't know what to expect [TS]

  you think you're reading one book and it [TS]

  turns out that it's all a it's all kind [TS]

  of a sham and you're actually reading [TS]

  something very different as a as a [TS]

  student of the appeasement of Neville [TS]

  Chamberlain's incredibly horrible [TS]

  attitude and sort of British Anglophilia [TS]

  leading up until British actually Leah [TS]

  I'm sorry pretty sure that whoever them [TS]

  to tana filia excuse me [TS]

  yes there are four of those bridge to [TS]

  terabithia leading up and into world war [TS]

  two even when atrocity started become [TS]

  known you know i love these books [TS]

  because you know I've always been bitter [TS]

  about the British attitude [TS]

  no I felt actually felt like these [TS]

  actually explored something that's [TS]

  critical to the British character beyond [TS]

  the science-fiction part of it that you [TS]

  you have you know the events described [TS]

  you sort of branch off at a certain [TS]

  point but you know there are plenty of [TS]

  parts of the British public of the [TS]

  British aristocracy and royalty [TS]

  leadership that we've been perfectly [TS]

  happy to deal with Hitler I thought she [TS]

  had a great historic graphic basis [TS]

  historical basis of where she chose [TS]

  these very particular branches it was an [TS]

  arbitration make stuff up should have to [TS]

  sort of create an alternate history [TS]

  years before the point she branched off [TS]

  she took a very logical place and [TS]

  and it don't know this because i was [TS]

  pleased by seeing what the outcome would [TS]

  be right because we should say that when [TS]

  they win this book starts we're in a [TS]

  what we realize we're in an alternate [TS]

  history where something has happened in [TS]

  World War tues progression has not [TS]

  happened at the way that we thought it [TS]

  would but the wars are still going on [TS]

  that you write history with Eastern [TS]

  Front more the Hitler's be able to wage [TS]

  because he has been busy on the western [TS]

  front either he subjugated all the [TS]

  countries always has appeasement with [TS]

  England which made sense because germany [TS]

  and england the Germans were actually [TS]

  sort of considered the the English as at [TS]

  least if not inferior you know not [TS]

  totally inferior not worthy of being [TS]

  necessarily invaded so in fact you know [TS]

  the german invasion of attempted [TS]

  invasion of England in reality was part [TS]

  because it just wouldn't give up you [TS]

  know it was it was sort of this year [TS]

  bloody-minded we're gonna batter the [TS]

  hell out of you because you won't you [TS]

  know given to our Teutonic leadership [TS]

  well and then the the other thing which [TS]

  doesn't really come up as much although [TS]

  it's alluded to a couple of times is [TS]

  that this is also a war where America [TS]

  never got involved right right right [TS]

  yeah as I recall and someone correct me [TS]

  if I'm wrong [TS]

  actually there is sort of a bit of a [TS]

  historical narrative change way back [TS]

  because isn't it [TS]

  America's not involved because America [TS]

  got decimated by the great depression [TS]

  and never came out of it so there's [TS]

  different i don't know i mean Charles [TS]

  Lindbergh is the president and yeah [TS]

  America [TS]

  yeah in America has not yet has remained [TS]

  isolationist essentially and that that [TS]

  has that is a change and there's some [TS]

  changes in the inn in the the Nazi [TS]

  government's uh entreaties to the to the [TS]

  British and it's unclear exactly what [TS]

  the point of divergence is here but [TS]

  because i never i recall no mention and [TS]

  maybe it comes up towards the end of the [TS]

  third book because it said I haven't [TS]

  read but never any mention of Pearl [TS]

  Harbor which we can we started defining [TS]

  event there you lead the the the asian [TS]

  front does not really come into it as [TS]

  much though I know the Japanese are [TS]

  mentioned in the third book i think [TS]

  there's nothing the deals America's [TS]

  trying to appease Japan because they [TS]

  feel like the war in Europe isn't theirs [TS]

  is over cool was it Coolidge I mean [TS]

  world war one was really where the u.s. [TS]

  ended its its isolationist phase and [TS]

  then you could see the return to that [TS]

  right twenties anyway and you know the [TS]

  American didn't want to get involved [TS]

  more work to still very reasonable so [TS]

  ostensibly with one burgers president [TS]

  and we're running the backstories our [TS]

  fan fiction versions of far things right [TS]

  but the series is asian Lindbergh [TS]

  instead of trying to you know portrayed [TS]

  the Japanese two minutes the Axis powers [TS]

  is that Europe's re basically settled [TS]

  with England and Germany deciding their [TS]

  positions and russia is being battled so [TS]

  America allies itself or the Japanese or [TS]

  take care of china and korea and the [TS]

  rest of asia right now I just want to [TS]

  stay out of it and be left alone of will [TS]

  fire off the spoiler horn for the first [TS]

  book only now [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  guys I think we're about to run into a [TS]

  lighthouse just yeah that's right [TS]

  there's lots of fog spoilers are in the [TS]

  fog it's England it's foggy it's good so [TS]

  what ends up happening is that there's [TS]

  this uh what we're really watching here [TS]

  is a takeover the English government so [TS]

  this is a this is all kind of a plot [TS]

  there's a murder at the house that we [TS]

  think is part of this Agatha Christie [TS]

  thing and we have two narrators there [TS]

  there's um our Carmichael our police [TS]

  investigator who will be the character [TS]

  who carries throughout all three books [TS]

  and then there is uh oh what's her name [TS]

  mrs. Khan Lucy mrs. Khan who is it who [TS]

  is an English woman of some-some [TS]

  standing some she's from my I think a [TS]

  good family but she's she's married a [TS]

  Jew and therefore she's destroyed all [TS]

  for social standing and what it turns [TS]

  out this is really relevant because [TS]

  anti-semitism is is on the rise as a [TS]

  part of this the fact that they made a [TS]

  deal with the Nazi government and uh and [TS]

  and that she's at the house when the [TS]

  murder happens and Carmichael comes to [TS]

  investigate and it turns out that it's [TS]

  this actually larger conspiracy and this [TS]

  this murder mystery turns into something [TS]

  quite horrible which is really a coup [TS]

  that and I takeover of the English [TS]

  government by by these people who are [TS]

  not they are not very nice people you [TS]

  know the kind of jerks khan by the way [TS]

  con con Edison is no idea her husband is [TS]

  this is this nice fellow but everybody [TS]

  view some with suspicion just because [TS]

  he's Jewish and and her it likewise and [TS]

  and there's an interesting scene where [TS]

  she goes out riding and there's a their [TS]

  shot at and and it seems like this [TS]

  bizarre turn and it turns out there's [TS]

  that they've like hired a guy to to it [TS]

  as part of this cover-up to attack [TS]

  people at this at this English manor [TS]

  it's just it's a crazy turn of events [TS]

  where you realize that you're not you [TS]

  know you're not reading the book that [TS]

  you thought you were [TS]

  yeah that's it again as a student of [TS]

  that era British history and say that [TS]

  the anti-semitism that she describes was [TS]

  pretty thinly veiled and already existed [TS]

  there's already that sort of restriction [TS]

  as there was the United States the time [TS]

  it was all you know sort of under the [TS]

  surface so she's tapping into that [TS]

  notion that instead of that becoming [TS]

  less acceptable that you know the plight [TS]

  of Jews in Europe the entry into world [TS]

  war two and then like progressive [TS]

  post-war changes in English and you know [TS]

  a lot of above the developed world would [TS]

  make a semitism less less acceptable [TS]

  it's like no no are good man our good [TS]

  friend Hitler he's taking care of all [TS]

  those lousy havoc people and those lazy [TS]

  Dutch and whatever he's take care of the [TS]

  Europe well we'll have things well in [TS]

  hand England including with are Jews [TS]

  yeah and it's and it's really i mean [TS]

  it's really horrifying what I've been [TS]

  saying to people is it starts out like [TS]

  Agatha Christie novel and then you [TS]

  realize it's actually more like 1984 [TS]

  because really what you end up with is [TS]

  this takeover of English government [TS]

  through this assassination that happens [TS]

  and the farthing set this with this [TS]

  group of people who were who were key to [TS]

  the deal with Hitler that's cut that [TS]

  keeps the English it from being invaded [TS]

  and instead makes them allies of of the [TS]

  Germans leads to uh you know they you [TS]

  can see that it's going to start [TS]

  happening the rounding up the roundup of [TS]

  the Jews and and because Lucy and her [TS]

  husband because she married a Jewish man [TS]

  David Kahn who have you know very nice [TS]

  smart man in the end up having to try [TS]

  and and escape the country because [TS]

  they're going to be you know they're [TS]

  going to actually he gets framed for [TS]

  this murder because the whole idea here [TS]

  is to set this up as a Jewish conspiracy [TS]

  when in fact they're killing this guy [TS]

  because he was against these sort of [TS]

  these anti-semitic policies and was [TS]

  going to be to have enough power to [TS]

  maybe change the course of events and so [TS]

  they they killed him so that they could [TS]

  take a takeover and the got this guy who [TS]

  you meet early on mark Normandy Normanby [TS]

  who you view as being this kind of scary [TS]

  kind of awful person and and maybe he [TS]

  actually did it [TS]

  and in the end the result is not just [TS]

  that he did it that the result is that [TS]

  he's the Prime Minister [TS]

  wouldn't be profit tremendously oh my [TS]

  god this was only a little bit yeah I [TS]

  had a little bit of an undercut with [TS]

  this book in that I was missing formed [TS]

  as you which was the first book in the [TS]

  series on Halfpenny first so I already [TS]

  knew everything happened in front of [TS]

  that makes it a little less effective it [TS]

  does yeah it does it does take a little [TS]

  bit of thunder there's still a lot to [TS]

  like in the first book i think even with [TS]

  that you know sort of seeing how things [TS]

  were put together we'd like a prequel I [TS]

  mean you do except the industry where [TS]

  you've been doing has been spoiled for [TS]

  you haha like you know who murdered the [TS]

  person and felt like well alright I [TS]

  don't need to worry about that the [TS]

  murder plot is still at mega through [TS]

  Agatha Christie plot in the sense that [TS]

  there are red herrings and you're trying [TS]

  to figure out what the the mechanics are [TS]

  of how they died in what and who exactly [TS]

  was involved but it turns out that it's [TS]

  not really that important of the [TS]

  mechanics of it was one of the police [TS]

  aren't going to be allowed even though [TS]

  our detective Carmichael figures it out [TS]

  he does figure it all out he can't [TS]

  actually do anything about it because [TS]

  they've decided to frame David Kahn so I [TS]

  said on that level it doesn't matter and [TS]

  then it also doesn't matter because [TS]

  there's this whole bigger issue which is [TS]

  that Normandy is going to be Prime [TS]

  Minister and that's really bad but uh [TS]

  but that's the whole idea is that 30 the [TS]

  guy who gets killed is is actually [TS]

  somebody who could stand up to them and [TS]

  they're eliminating all possibility for [TS]

  for opposition in this takeover of the [TS]

  of the British government with these [TS]

  fascists basically reminds one of V is [TS]

  for Ventura v for vendetta already has [TS]

  no no I mean straight it although less I [TS]

  mean you're a different end of the lens [TS]

  be installed that thing it's like the [TS]

  government's moved to a totalitarian [TS]

  state [TS]

  yeah and it's chilling there's a novel [TS]

  called one that for the life of me I [TS]

  read this a few years ago and i cannot [TS]

  it's impossible to find on google search [TS]

  for novel called one there's no way to [TS]

  find I cannot recall the afternoon maybe [TS]

  someone will and it's this incredibly [TS]

  it's like 1984 it's like this in the [TS]

  sense that it's it's there's the analogy [TS]

  of shifting to a totalitarian state that [TS]

  happens sort of so subtly and so many [TS]

  incremental steps that you don't exactly [TS]

  notice that yes the boiling the Frog [TS]

  slowly thing [TS]

  and I felt like one takes that to an [TS]

  extreme where the state is absolutely a [TS]

  totalitarian people live their lives [TS]

  more or less until they get caught up in [TS]

  the apparatus when they fall off I'll [TS]

  even accidentally and that's this one is [TS]

  much more starkly painted but it's it's [TS]

  the ordinariness of it when you're like [TS]

  you know off the country estate and [TS]

  they're kind of imaginations and then [TS]

  it's an excuse it's the it's the horse [TS]

  vessel thing it's the burning of the [TS]

  Reichstag they keep talking about it [TS]

  it's the the martyr that's the excuse to [TS]

  then implement martial law and clamp [TS]

  down and make everything much much much [TS]

  worse thing that got to me was it we [TS]

  reminded me a bit of there's an [TS]

  interview with Ray Bradbury in one of [TS]

  the issue editions of fahrenheit 451 [TS]

  that came out mid two thousand or so and [TS]

  what's fascinating about that interview [TS]

  was always that you know people are [TS]

  saying to him also you know it's a book [TS]

  about censorship right mrs. well not [TS]

  exactly because the people in fahrenheit [TS]

  451 sort of asked for the password [TS]

  soporific effects of you know being you [TS]

  know inoculated via television etc etc [TS]

  and it strikes me is that this is sort [TS]

  of a similar approach to a certain [TS]

  extent in that you have all these people [TS]

  who seem to be very into like you know [TS]

  hating the Jews already so there's never [TS]

  like oh great this is just what we're [TS]

  looking for this sort of indicates our [TS]

  entire philosophy and that's an [TS]

  interesting approach to that because it [TS]

  shows that you know well obviously the [TS]

  same thing has to happen in Germany to a [TS]

  certain extent right is the you know [TS]

  despite how charismatic Hitler's and how [TS]

  he comes to power there's a certain [TS]

  amount of complicity coming from the pot [TS]

  general populace who are not fighting [TS]

  back against that and that seems to be [TS]

  very much what's happening in England [TS]

  too and in fact is you know we go along [TS]

  and further books has become like people [TS]

  were there not like harsh enough that [TS]

  was a great line in later book which is [TS]

  not exactly spoil where spoiler [TS]

  precisely when someone says oh I hear [TS]

  you're a fascist the person chuckles and [TS]

  says well I'd like to be or something [TS]

  like that yeah well you need a treat [TS]

  fascism very positively and it's hard to [TS]

  think of that is like a its soul is such [TS]

  a loaded term from our point of view [TS]

  given our history it's weird to see it [TS]

  in a context where it's not considered [TS]

  like an insult [TS]

  aight because if you call someone a [TS]

  fascist today there are very few people [TS]

  who would take that as a compliment [TS]

  now in the third book there's there's [TS]

  also that line that is that is a fashion [TS]

  that sounds like fun action was a good [TS]

  bit of fun yeah one of the things that [TS]

  is true in this book as well as the [TS]

  other two books in the series is that we [TS]

  alternate between the view of carmichael [TS]

  RR policeman who's investigating this [TS]

  crime and in all three books there there [TS]

  is a young woman who is fairly innocent [TS]

  and brought up to believe sort of in the [TS]

  base beliefs of English society in this [TS]

  world and then has her beliefs [TS]

  challenged in some way and that happens [TS]

  in all three of these books but in this [TS]

  case you know we've got we've got the [TS]

  example of Lucy where she's uh she's her [TS]

  through her marriage she's caused this [TS]

  the this kind of an issue and you think [TS]

  well good for her that she went ahead [TS]

  and has a mixed marriage even though the [TS]

  the snooty English people don't like it [TS]

  but then you realize that we're entering [TS]

  into an England where anti-semitism is [TS]

  going to run rampant and it's actually a [TS]

  much bigger problem for her but she [TS]

  still got a lot of these these attitudes [TS]

  that of end and you can see her kind of [TS]

  fighting as she realizes what is [TS]

  actually happening in her country as it [TS]

  goes which I really like because you do [TS]

  you see it you see that long slide and [TS]

  it's not you know it's not any server [TS]

  twisting mustaches of evil people write [TS]

  it this progression [TS]

  it's just one small move after another [TS]

  like you said it's like boiling the [TS]

  water with the frog in it it's one small [TS]

  move after another that inevitably leads [TS]

  to this terrible result it's horribly [TS]

  possible [TS]

  that's what makes them battling and i [TS]

  think im gonna listen a spoiler i think [TS]

  as the books progress as you get further [TS]

  from the branch we can talk about that [TS]

  but i think especially in this first [TS]

  book and and someone in the second it's [TS]

  it's which takes place in a not too [TS]

  distant period of time from the first so [TS]

  right on the cusp actually uh you you [TS]

  get the sense of something that is so I [TS]

  had a reading it actually be upset like [TS]

  watching the election coverage and so [TS]

  forth because it was hard to read the [TS]

  three of them actually quite rapid [TS]

  the one after the other three books and [TS]

  I had to keep reminding myself that this [TS]

  wasn't actually the reality I was facing [TS]

  even though it's sort of a time's your [TS]

  rhetoric that made you think you might [TS]

  be I i wonder how what how everybody [TS]

  reacted to reading this book i was [TS]

  really affected by it and to the point [TS]

  where I didn't read the second book [TS]

  right away even know why I really [TS]

  enjoyed this book and it was one of [TS]

  those that is the second Joe wall novel [TS]

  that I read I thought okay she's great [TS]

  i'll read anything that she writes [TS]

  because she's she's great and I will [TS]

  even if it's a book about dragons [TS]

  wearing hats i will read it it's [TS]

  strangely enough she has that book right [TS]

  Scott she does i'm reading right now [TS]

  saying dragons wearing hats what's that [TS]

  we see the spoiler alert i'm sorry too [TS]

  thin cloth that's right that's the big [TS]

  thing is that the turns out there's a [TS]

  dragon with a hat [TS]

  exactly I to think Laura had with a [TS]

  dragon underneath it [TS]

  ah i just i spent like the next week [TS]

  thinking about this book and in a [TS]

  because it is it ends so darkly that the [TS]

  this is not a happy ending in any [TS]

  stretch of the imagination [TS]

  Britain is sliding into into [TS]

  totalitarianism and the the Jews are [TS]

  being persecuted and it's just it's just [TS]

  awful and as somebody who in addition to [TS]

  generally being against totalitarianism [TS]

  and fascism is also in it is also [TS]

  married to shut somebody who's Jewish I [TS]

  i did deeply extra extra disturbing and [TS]

  and I couldn't move to book two because [TS]

  i was a just it was very effective in [TS]

  making you think what if it were you in [TS]

  a way that then I think I said on a [TS]

  previous podcast of what we're talking [TS]

  about [TS]

  Paolo Bacigalupi right that one of his [TS]

  tricks was that he does just enough to [TS]

  put you in the mind that it's you in [TS]

  that terrible situation he says you know [TS]

  he does those tricks where he make sure [TS]

  that they're like blonde the refugees [TS]

  who have no money in her and are are are [TS]

  fighting each other make sure that [TS]

  they're blonde and red headed and things [TS]

  like that he says that it's like you [TS]

  can't just say a rich white Americans [TS]

  you can't just say this is something [TS]

  that happens to other people somewhere [TS]

  else in the world who don't look like me [TS]

  and Joe Walton does that too in this [TS]

  book I feel like as I'm going through it [TS]

  because it's set in England I have such [TS]

  an affinity [TS]

  44 England and they you know they speak [TS]

  our language and their us right and you [TS]

  see this happening and it makes it that [TS]

  much more effective so I was really I [TS]

  was really affected by it i wonder what [TS]

  you guys felt just got to remember that [TS]

  far back [TS]

  let me think well I was I was I didn't [TS]

  read them all in rapid succession but I [TS]

  was quite hit by the the tragedy that is [TS]

  the character of carmichael even the [TS]

  first blow yeah I mean it's the ending [TS]

  it'sit's he's just trying to do the [TS]

  right thing and the and he is he [TS]

  believes in the system for most of the [TS]

  book and he just wants to you know solve [TS]

  this crime and he does solve it then he [TS]

  is not allowed to actually bring justice [TS]

  to the the situation and and they use a [TS]

  his personal life against him and [TS]

  threaten him so that he has to do that [TS]

  you know the thing that he doesn't want [TS]

  to do it all and just sit idly by and it [TS]

  only gets worse for him in the next book [TS]

  so we should say that not only is our 11 [TS]

  protagonist I'm in this situation where [TS]

  she's married a Jewish man and this is [TS]

  Kai a huge compromise because what's [TS]

  happening in the country but our other [TS]

  protagonist the the cop who just wants [TS]

  to solve the crime [TS]

  it turns out he's gay and he that is [TS]

  used that is used against him to make [TS]

  not only is he not allowed to solve the [TS]

  crime but he basically gets a promotion [TS]

  to be under the thumb of the evil prime [TS]

  minister and with this blackmail he [TS]

  cannot be kind of can't get out of it [TS]

  souls unitarian mind that at this period [TS]

  that's illegal aliens you engravers yes [TS]

  and it's not really becoming a more [TS]

  liberal society you know the opposite [TS]

  direction [TS]

  well I mean and you know that that part [TS]

  does not really diverge from the [TS]

  historical precedent to say it was [TS]

  illegal [TS]

  yeah how long you remember Alan Alan [TS]

  Alan himself because of what he had to [TS]

  face and yeah it's uh it's is also the [TS]

  the residence there's two is that you [TS]

  know they're Jews lived in Berlin during [TS]

  World War Two not that many of them [TS]

  there under the protection of a powerful [TS]

  Nazis who like those performers there's [TS]

  a fiction they were told it can play [TS]

  been converted in whatever and they [TS]

  ordered the same thing it's like they [TS]

  took a total ought to do exactly what [TS]

  their master sponsors said they will be [TS]

  sent off the concentration camp so it's [TS]

  not that [TS]

  you have these sort of token you know [TS]

  closeted homosexuals in England during [TS]

  this period would otherwise be sent off [TS]

  to camps on the continent in this book [TS]

  where they shipped off all the people [TS]

  they want to get rid of the gym you know [TS]

  that the Jews who have papers or [TS]

  whatever it's not that weird that you'd [TS]

  have people under the thumb that was [TS]

  what Hoover you know did in this country [TS]

  i well it's all about leverage right [TS]

  like they've all got they've got [TS]

  leverage over him and he's useful and [TS]

  can be controlled as opposed to someone [TS]

  else you put in the same situation who [TS]

  might not have that right [TS]

  all I know is you got to be really [TS]

  careful that what kind of tea drinking [TS]

  this book apparently uh huh yeah it [TS]

  turns out Carmichael city gives you've [TS]

  given everything away been in china tea [TS]

  your cable yet it's a is outrageous [TS]

  your tea sir ren what had you end up [TS]

  feeling after you read this book I was [TS]

  feeling very very disturbed after [TS]

  reading the end of the first because the [TS]

  first really does kind of build up in [TS]

  the last couple chapters yeah she breaks [TS]

  down the hammer yeah yeah yeah well i [TS]

  mean it's it's at the point where that [TS]

  you know Lucy Khan and her husband have [TS]

  to basically go on the run and think [TS]

  like criminals to get out of the country [TS]

  and I you kind of really hits home for [TS]

  his picture is everywhere as this killer [TS]

  and he didn't do it and yeah and and [TS]

  they have to they have to hide and [TS]

  change their appearance and try to flee [TS]

  because they are being set up and its [TS]

  really yeah it's really tough it's a [TS]

  dark ending [TS]

  yeah and boy was it lucky that you know [TS]

  her governess ends up being somebody who [TS]

  can go very conveniently shit people out [TS]

  of the country future Canada but I I'm i [TS]

  finished farthing and then almost [TS]

  immediately downloaded the second book [TS]

  and started reading like I ate it was [TS]

  really strange because i didn't know [TS]

  from the progression I didn't actually [TS]

  know that it would be a different main [TS]

  character I and the way the format was [TS]

  the books were going to change as as we [TS]

  move from book 12 book to write I don't [TS]

  have expected to see Luci and can happen [TS]

  but exactly i was like oh well you know [TS]

  I want to know what happens to them and [TS]

  they're like four or [TS]

  Ben Canadian French children but yeah [TS]

  there [TS]

  well that's the that's the interesting [TS]

  thing I find about her writing style for [TS]

  these books in general is it's a it's [TS]

  very intriguing to me that she chose the [TS]

  first person for loose for all three of [TS]

  her female narrators and there's a [TS]

  female narrator in each one of the books [TS]

  yes but they're different narrators [TS]

  right but all young young women who are [TS]

  very fit into the culture and yet and [TS]

  then have a disillusioning moment and [TS]

  those are all first person and [TS]

  Carmichael is not first person each one [TS]

  of them chooses a very specific way to [TS]

  react to the solution but i might [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  yeah I but it's interesting that [TS]

  Carmichael to me always stays you know [TS]

  distant to a certain extent even when in [TS]

  the third book we get you know a lot [TS]

  more of his personal history and [TS]

  personal past it's this it's a weird [TS]

  sort of screen because even though he's [TS]

  technically are you know he's our link [TS]

  protagonist he's in all three of the [TS]

  books I didn't feel like I knew him the [TS]

  best until two thirds of the way through [TS]

  the 3rd book at which point sort of [TS]

  clicked with me like this is this whole [TS]

  thing is Carmichael story and the you [TS]

  know the first person protagonists are [TS]

  just there to basically provide color [TS]

  which you don't really connect ok we're [TS]

  going we're going to fire up the spoiler [TS]

  horn right here for the second book [TS]

  I really loved him that I just thought I [TS]

  something about about the way the [TS]

  characters written i just i really [TS]

  enjoyed his point of view and his agony [TS]

  and and what he was trying to do to be [TS]

  right and is there a little breaking bad [TS]

  in this to where it's like well you know [TS]

  I could be the head of Secret Service [TS]

  and I'm gonna kill people and torture [TS]

  them and set of torture procedures and [TS]

  be all dick cheney and the end of the [TS]

  first book is basically he gets building [TS]

  a good man and go back and forget all [TS]

  this nonsense yes which is which to me [TS]

  is a very affecting part of that which [TS]

  is the fact that he's basically so I [TS]

  mean the key thing is he tells Lucy to [TS]

  run right i mean not explicitly but he [TS]

  basically lets her know that they're [TS]

  coming to arrest until he calls he calls [TS]

  the house [TS]

  Ryan called her and says we're gonna [TS]

  come and get you exactly [TS]

  don't don't flee or anything exactly [TS]

  don't don't run away to canada weighing [TS]

  come over and that was for me the point [TS]

  where i really started to like Lucy [TS]

  because for the beginning of the book [TS]

  she's very she's and you know I think [TS]

  this was clearly intentional but she's [TS]

  so fluttery and so like you know clearly [TS]

  she thinks about the issues but she's [TS]

  always sort of talking yourself down and [TS]

  things like that it's just i found her a [TS]

  little bit more annoying at that but [TS]

  she's you know with the whole i love [TS]

  that scene my favorite thing in the [TS]

  entire book might be the scene where she [TS]

  realizes they have to run so she goes up [TS]

  and she's thinking very practically [TS]

  about anything she steals a bunch of [TS]

  stuff from her mom that you can hock [TS]

  later for money and she just does it [TS]

  right like she was like I don't even [TS]

  think about it I just when did this [TS]

  thing like all right here we go now I'm [TS]

  starting to identify should take some [TS]

  pressure this precious diamond that has [TS]

  been getting notifications accidentally [TS]

  takes this huge diamond it's the pearl [TS]

  of india and then you end up with the [TS]

  scene with with Carmichael III also [TS]

  quite liked but where he essentially [TS]

  gets betrayed right by his sidekick Tom [TS]

  and you know and one of the things that [TS]

  sort of harder to get especially if you [TS]

  read the second book first is why not [TS]

  going to continue to what you getting at [TS]

  though [TS]

  well why would you you know like why [TS]

  would you continue to work with this guy [TS]

  great he doesn't necessarily have a [TS]

  choice in the matter but also he sort of [TS]

  forgives him right you know it's like [TS]

  well you know he was just doing this is [TS]

  job and it doesn't really hold it [TS]

  against and it's like East Germany were [TS]

  you know Easter me and yes like they [TS]

  found out later everybody was spying on [TS]

  everybody and the recriminations in the [TS]

  you know the sort of either still going [TS]

  through it now material still being [TS]

  recovered in I don't how many people [TS]

  were nice to me or some tens of millions [TS]

  right and some substantial percentage of [TS]

  the adult population at one point other [TS]

  was on stassi's pay and file reports as [TS]

  that's how you kept yourself and your [TS]

  family from being destroyed and despite [TS]

  the government's nature and its evilness [TS]

  most people were just under observation [TS]

  they weren't harmed so you can tell [TS]

  yourself all i'm doing is keeping things [TS]

  or this person to go to jail they're not [TS]

  going to be disappeared [TS]

  this is just part of keeping order and [TS]

  it's that slippery slope [TS]

  yeah this they reminded me of the lives [TS]

  of others which is a great movie if you [TS]

  haven't seen it about about the life of [TS]

  people in east germany there's a [TS]

  spymaster and there's somebody who's [TS]

  being spied on and it's a bent one of [TS]

  the best movies i've ever seen actually [TS]

  remember the bit in the probable [TS]

  lightness of being where uh there's a [TS]

  bit where covers the protagonist come [TS]

  back to Czechoslovakia was a bit we [TS]

  realize is one of his close friends has [TS]

  basically been informing on him all [TS]

  along and I kind of shrug those huh [TS]

  like I guess that's what it looks like [TS]

  and every now that's something all these [TS]

  books is that there is that it was just [TS]

  like it's just this is the way the world [TS]

  is and you know it's not [TS]

  it happened so gradually and then it's [TS]

  just--that's this is how it is now we [TS]

  have you know Norman be as prime [TS]

  minister and you know basically we all [TS]

  agree that that far think it's a really [TS]

  good book right for removal [TS]

  I got a little during in effecting a [TS]

  different i liked it it was a mean again [TS]

  it was hard to judge it for its own [TS]

  merits yes he went by your situation [TS]

  yes your unstuck in time and I find [TS]

  myself [TS]

  unfortunately having to compare it to [TS]

  Dorothy stairs who is also quoted in the [TS]

  front piece of a penny [TS]

  I mean clearly is an inspiration for [TS]

  these books and while this different you [TS]

  know deals with a very different subject [TS]

  matter in many ways the the in the part [TS]

  of it that is sort of plano module most [TS]

  tutor thesairs I found falls a little [TS]

  bit flat for me and that's only because [TS]

  Dorothy serious isn't it [TS]

  absolutely fantastic writer and those [TS]

  books are you know way up there for me [TS]

  but it's still I still found them [TS]

  enjoyable it's it's it's you know it [TS]

  isn't those books right it sits inside [TS]

  right now clearly now I mean those are [TS]

  very strict laws are mysteries and you [TS]

  know they're right in the similar period [TS]

  and stuff like that right where is this [TS]

  is the it's like this more directive [TS]

  again that you have the mystery part is [TS]

  not the most important part yeah the [TS]

  altar mr. anticipating it so hey penny [TS]

  is funny because it's the it's the plot [TS]

  to kill Hitler Hitler comes is going to [TS]

  come to to London for a visit and watch [TS]

  a play because of course that the old [TS]

  good assassination attempt happen in the [TS]

  theater that's just how it is because [TS]

  they were you out in public so so we [TS]

  have while watching hamlet of course yes [TS]

  so so hit was coming to see to see a [TS]

  play [TS]

  well he's coming for other things but [TS]

  they're gonna happen to see a play with [TS]

  with the Prime Minister he's a big he [TS]

  loves the theater Hitler hub and I and [TS]

  Carmichael is put in charge of of [TS]

  security isn't he [TS]

  or he's no he's investigating a bombing [TS]

  because there's a bombing we're uh an [TS]

  actress [TS]

  it's blowing up inexplicably why were [TS]

  they blow up an actress and it begins to [TS]

  unravel and it turns out that that's [TS]

  part of this this you know an artist / [TS]

  they were they were practicing they're [TS]

  practicing to blow up Hitler in his [TS]

  energy bar exactly exactly wanna not you [TS]

  don't want to [TS]

  amateur blow-up Hitler you want to get [TS]

  it professionally you're going to blow [TS]

  up Hitler you don't want to blow them up [TS]

  a little you want to blow them up all [TS]

  the way not just part of the way [TS]

  no half Hitler blow up something else [TS]

  only you gotta really blow him up so so [TS]

  so Carmichael is investigating this [TS]

  which is funny because now we've got our [TS]

  are compromised hero here put on the [TS]

  case of trying to prevent people killing [TS]

  Hitler and Norman B who are awful people [TS]

  and psyche a Carmichael except whoo know [TS]

  yet been incredibly difficult as a I [TS]

  don't know I i had a lot of trouble with [TS]

  first of all I a lot of trouble with the [TS]

  narrator who I just found also the other [TS]

  the other characters viola who is this [TS]

  actress who is at casting this gender [TS]

  reverse which is a trend in in this [TS]

  alternate world it's a trend of the [TS]

  theatre in london is to gender reverse [TS]

  plays so it's a gender reversed Hamlet [TS]

  and she is she's kind of annoying it's [TS]

  just did the itch to her motivations are [TS]

  just on like I don't know it's a lot of [TS]

  hand waving right like it [TS]

  oh why are you going along with this [TS]

  plot well you're kinda shit laughing [TS]

  it's well yeah I didn't love with this [TS]

  guy but are you sure she gets it over [TS]

  she gets an overhead and and she's in [TS]

  with the plotters and she's not she's [TS]

  doing she's totally an overhead but she [TS]

  goes along with it and yeah that she's [TS]

  kind of romance by the guy but also ship [TS]

  side of really he's kinda wrapped he's [TS]

  kind of a sure he's a jerk but yeah I [TS]

  mean he is a controller Irish anarchist [TS]

  it took me a very long time to peg the [TS]

  relationship between the two of them and [TS]

  then I realized and I wondered if this [TS]

  was intentional [TS]

  it reminded me very much is I presume [TS]

  least some of you have seen notorious [TS]

  very good movie it's a fantastic movie [TS]

  but what gives what struck me about is [TS]

  basically it's a simple it's a movie in [TS]

  which Ingrid Bergman is basically [TS]

  convinced to narc on her husband who is [TS]

  like a not to use flee to South America [TS]

  or not is yeah more Nazi well he does so [TS]

  Harry grant is the is the is the sort of [TS]

  the ue American spy who's like her [TS]

  handler essentially and is trying to [TS]

  convince her and they sort of also fall [TS]

  in love is going on but sometimes he [TS]

  treats a lot of time he treats her very [TS]

  callously and very coldly and his name [TS]

  is Devlin which is like the thing where [TS]

  I was like wait a second like because [TS]

  that's the name of the character in a [TS]

  penny to and so I wondered if some of [TS]

  that dynamic was taken away or is sort [TS]

  of an homage to that because it reminded [TS]

  me very much of that same thing that [TS]

  even seen for their driving around the [TS]

  car together and I don't know it's like [TS]

  it's very interesting how many parallel [TS]

  started right there which is a master of [TS]

  illusion as we know from among others [TS]

  she can weave in I mean heard it's very [TS]

  its original but boy they're just so [TS]

  many things that ring bells here without [TS]

  making it feel derivative you but you're [TS]

  right that file is a damaged it and [TS]

  annoying character and she she's got a [TS]

  lot of she just kind of gets mixed up in [TS]

  it and there's a lot of sort of like [TS]

  well should I do it should I not do it [TS]

  and.and that's year not to be hm [TS]

  and all the time you're trying to eat [TS]

  you know you do you have to do end up [TS]

  having to like pull yourself back every [TS]

  five seconds and be like wait it's [TS]

  Hitler of course you should love them [TS]

  black yeah like that was the whole day I [TS]

  don't know I thought that was a clever [TS]

  it is cover it hurts my head a little [TS]

  bit yeah I mean there's even a bit she [TS]

  meets Hitler and she's like I'm charming [TS]

  he says charmila is this [TS]

  I like this mustache when you're rooting [TS]

  for Carmichael and then you like you do [TS]

  get that lovely scene at the end where [TS]

  officers like all the crap i just say [TS]

  Miller whether he'll drive so at the end [TS]

  he does succeed in Normandy into the [TS]

  warding this plot and and Hitler is [TS]

  unwanted unwanted Normanby is wounded [TS]

  but survives and there is a line in the [TS]

  third book where we're Carmichael says [TS]

  what we've been thinking in the second [TS]

  book which is I didn't realize until [TS]

  after it was done that I could have just [TS]

  done nothing and they would have both [TS]

  been dead and that would have been [TS]

  better if he just he just literally his [TS]

  his policeman instincts take over and [TS]

  that and that's the just wants to do it [TS]

  he's the guy doing is just doing his job [TS]

  and and we're so programmed in watching [TS]

  this in in reading this book to be a [TS]

  crime to be solved you want the cracks [TS]

  are all be a virgin when our friend to [TS]

  do his job and do it well we don't you [TS]

  know all these things we want to have [TS]

  happen and then you have to say but it's [TS]

  Hitler just kill him right but but [TS]

  Hitler even though even though it's not [TS]

  actually a good thing that that he's [TS]

  been set upon by his superiors easier [TS]

  he's doing his job and in some ways with [TS]

  Carmichael I mean that's all he's got [TS]

  right first off he's being blackmailed [TS]

  basically and you know this is the only [TS]

  thing it's what he knows how to do and [TS]

  and so he does it and that kind of [TS]

  compliance of all the people to not [TS]

  comply with this situation and yet he is [TS]

  enforcing heat you know it's the gay man [TS]

  that in the in this in this of the [TS]

  oppressive society and yet he's the one [TS]

  who's enforcing enforcing the society [TS]

  and keeping it together even though it's [TS]

  completely antithetical to everything he [TS]

  believes because it's his job to do it [TS]

  which is which only gets stepped up in [TS]

  the third book when he's got even more [TS]

  authority is his reward right in in [TS]

  doing his job [TS]

  okay great thanks now you're the head of [TS]

  the secret police [TS]

  yeah i think is cute everybody yeah joe [TS]

  yeah best promotion and yeah excellent [TS]

  work in saving Hitler he gets a medal I [TS]

  believe too i think it was like its [TS]

  environmental and get ya to Germany [TS]

  metal music he gets to fly there and [TS]

  he's got the Zeppelin privileges now for [TS]

  our out of the state there are selfless [TS]

  by the way in the in the key question [TS]

  are are there Zeppelin's is elegant [TS]

  history and all these books not only is [TS]

  it a parallel universe and that means [TS]

  that there is Evelyn's but also the [TS]

  Germans are successful in the war and of [TS]

  course the Germans love the Zeppelin's [TS]

  cuz you know reception is there really a [TS]

  German where the earlier on is it that's [TS]

  the that's the thing if you ever wonder [TS]

  if your if your reality is shifted and [TS]

  your inner alter history Mars have to [TS]

  check others up against you as well [TS]

  maybe twice if you're in an alternate [TS]

  timeline yes we had this I i was talking [TS]

  to a friend of mine just yesterday and [TS]

  she said Zeppelin's are so impractical [TS]

  why would they have issues watching [TS]

  fringe she was watching the the edges [TS]

  like why would you [TS]

  they're slow there why would you have [TS]

  them and I said the only reason you have [TS]

  to miss to say hey we're in a parallel [TS]

  universe that's why the resemblance and [TS]

  one day at my office I there's a [TS]

  Zeppelin that goes around occasionally [TS]

  in the bay area giving tours and I [TS]

  sought out the window and I had a moment [TS]

  of like who's the President and charles [TS]

  lindbergh know it's what color is the [TS]

  Statue of Liberty mr. Bitler is the [TS]

  president actually has no president [TS]

  whatever what happened was i saw i saw [TS]

  the I saw the Zeppelin and I said wait a [TS]

  second apples the most valuable company [TS]

  in the world the giants won the world [TS]

  series we got a black guy in the white [TS]

  house and maybe we are in a parallel [TS]

  universe the Zeppelin problems it [TS]

  that's right but I promise for your butt [TS]

  so I liked it I liked this book even [TS]

  viola is really an annoying character [TS]

  because i really enjoy Carmichael coming [TS]

  to the fore here in solving this solving [TS]

  this crime that you don't want him to [TS]

  solve and and yet you know this point [TS]

  there's not dead they know is not dead [TS]

  and and what's interesting too is that [TS]

  in violence narration she's she's [TS]

  narrating at which you mean the you [TS]

  assuming that means I'm next giveaway [TS]

  that she's not gonna die [TS]

  probably because she's able to narrate [TS]

  it and as as it goes you get hints that [TS]

  she's [TS]

  not in a very good place here well and [TS]

  this is interesting to a certain extent [TS]

  because you do get this despite the fact [TS]

  that those characters marry in the first [TS]

  person and i think one was arguing that [TS]

  you you always keep your distance from [TS]

  carmichael to a certain extent was [TS]

  fascinating to me is that those [TS]

  narratives are far more colored right [TS]

  because in Lucy's case anyway she's [TS]

  written it down right that's actually [TS]

  her that's her bones are counting the [TS]

  storm wise comes back certain extent i [TS]

  don't know if you get that as much with [TS]

  Viola explicitly but I also there was [TS]

  something in the third book to the [TS]

  extent that I've read now where the [TS]

  narrator remark something about well you [TS]

  know that's how I remember it now or [TS]

  that's how I'm relating it or something [TS]

  like that so you also get this idea of [TS]

  sort of a like someone recounting a [TS]

  story right whereas the ones with [TS]

  Carmichael are actually you're in the [TS]

  moment right you're Willam listening to [TS]

  him so in some ways you are more distant [TS]

  from his thoughts but the same time [TS]

  you're closer to him because you're [TS]

  right with him as he is discovering all [TS]

  these things it's not done from like a [TS]

  retrospective position i liked a penny [TS]

  what let's move on if there are no [TS]

  objections to talk about half a crown [TS]

  ok will fire off the spoiler [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  and spoiler horn hit Dan and now he's [TS]

  dead [TS]

  sorry Dan that's the spoiler someone why [TS]

  didn't you save me [TS]

  Carmichael so half-a-crown your book I [TS]

  just read this last week I I space these [TS]

  out a little bit rather than completely [TS]

  consuming them in one you know in one [TS]

  sitting or or very short period of time [TS]

  and in this one [TS]

  Carmichael has risen to basically being [TS]

  the head of of the Gestapo the [TS]

  Englishman stop the English to stop on [TS]

  the watch for more polite [TS]

  yeah well of course when they have t [TS]

  exactly and and so now he's he's in [TS]

  charge of the secret police and end is [TS]

  still under the thumb of Normandy who's [TS]

  now this wounded guy him and there are [TS]

  more extreme elements of society that [TS]

  are kind of conspiring against him which [TS]

  is really scary because wait a second [TS]

  you know it's like he's not bad enough [TS]

  we need somebody even more extreme and [TS]

  even more evil is soft on terrorism but [TS]

  they are building a there they are [TS]

  building a concentration camp in England [TS]

  so that they don't have to ship their [TS]

  prisoners to Europe to have the progress [TS]

  yeah oh yeah that's entirely things are [TS]

  going yeah things are going swimmingly [TS]

  we want our concentration camps [TS]

  british-made that's right and and the [TS]

  and then the alternate story here is his [TS]

  ward basically who is the daughter of [TS]

  his partner who gets gunned down in the [TS]

  in the showdown at the end of the second [TS]

  book right [TS]

  yep not right like they're in the car [TS]

  and get out and he gets yeah he gets [TS]

  shot so it sort of way the the the [TS]

  narrator here is his ward so he's he's [TS]

  sort of adopted her his partner's [TS]

  daughter because his partner's wife [TS]

  written left them and and so he he [TS]

  doesn't really raised her he sends her [TS]

  off to a series of good schools and she [TS]

  gets a a education far beyond what she [TS]

  would have gotten as a a cometer [TS]

  essentially and she knows all these high [TS]

  society people and she's going to be [TS]

  introduced at a at a I don't even know [TS]

  what it is but to the queen that you [TS]

  taught coming [TS]

  yeah she's coming out as a deadbeat [TS]

  coming out year it introduced to society [TS]

  yes she went to a finishing school in [TS]

  Switzerland and he's gets her anything [TS]

  that she needs because he feels totally [TS]

  guilty about the fact that his partner [TS]

  was shot in that previous book and we [TS]

  can get whatever she wants because he's [TS]

  the head of the secret police secret [TS]

  police yeah they also speaking of coming [TS]

  out he's also managed to disable her [TS]

  gaydar while she's growing up so that [TS]

  she's incapable of perceiving that he [TS]

  and his partner Jack are in love and [TS]

  potentially sleeping together but not [TS]

  while she's there is mad his office [TS]

  she's off at school most of the time I [TS]

  think it was easier what happens when [TS]

  you live in manservants it was easier to [TS]

  hide [TS]

  that's my true feeling and and is [TS]

  whatever she never stayed with him now [TS]

  oh is that right no she did she live [TS]

  with them during when she wasn't on [TS]

  issues just usually off [TS]

  no no no she says that she had a room [TS]

  but she almost never stayed there she [TS]

  was always with friends or she was off [TS]

  at school and she she basically never [TS]

  mean he heat she was his ward but at [TS]

  arm's length sort of the whole I don't [TS]

  think I got that he never stayed I say [TS]

  yeah you got you got the sense that he [TS]

  was unwell wouldn't be proper just [TS]

  because I guess that's true to confirm [TS]

  that there's a lot of you know I should [TS]

  bring up at this point that's one of the [TS]

  things that it sort of gets a more and [TS]

  more so that the books like they're all [TS]

  kinds of homosexuals this book and all [TS]

  kinds of things and you're like it she [TS]

  she dwells a little too much like I [TS]

  realize the plot device is part of like [TS]

  blackmailing people because you know [TS]

  then the under the thumb but the Prime [TS]

  Minister is gay and the guy who was [TS]

  killed with his name in the first book [TS]

  he's potentially maybe he was gay but no [TS]

  he was having an affair it's like lying [TS]

  in the third book there's the guy who's [TS]

  like that in high up in the government [TS]

  who write who is actually sympathetic to [TS]

  getting rid of Norman B and he's getting [TS]

  too big a get some is fine but it's just [TS]

  the funny part is i think she deals with [TS]

  it's a little cold and this person is [TS]

  what they call the Apollonian what's the [TS]

  Apollonian was like a name remember yeah [TS]

  that in numbers book Athena Athena yeah [TS]

  me and this is something that yeah yeah [TS]

  yeah it's their their their code for it [TS]

  it's just a little coy I think in some [TS]

  ways there's a great scene within [TS]

  half-a-crown ricky carmichael takes jack [TS]

  to a gay bar like one of the only safe [TS]

  gay bars oh yeah in London and he hates [TS]

  it he doesn't like that is an attack [TS]

  digging that is a fantastic scene [TS]

  because thats that moment that is part [TS]

  of the moment where you really kind of [TS]

  start to get a sense of carmichael and [TS]

  it is almost in the inverse because he [TS]

  he takes Jack there because it's their [TS]

  anniversary and we've seen Jack a little [TS]

  bit but he's not really been much of a [TS]

  character and here it's sort of like you [TS]

  know you see you think about him having [TS]

  to act like the manservant and be in the [TS]

  background all the time and wonder what [TS]

  his life would be like and then here we [TS]

  get the reverse switches that Carmichael [TS]

  does what he wants and goes to this club [TS]

  and hates every minute of it and ends up [TS]

  talking to the bartender for a little [TS]

  while the bartender listens to her [TS]

  sorrows and sort of understands the best [TS]

  bartenders do and the bartender's like I [TS]

  should stop talking to you because [TS]

  you're your guys gonna be jealous but [TS]

  that's fascinating to because they're [TS]

  like he recognizes people there [TS]

  it turns out that the the emissary from [TS]

  Imperial Japan who's going to the piece [TS]

  tortoise is there uh it's it's just and [TS]

  that there's some really and I tried to [TS]

  imagine it actually is a movie because [TS]

  there's there's a scene where there [TS]

  there's some of some of them in there [TS]

  are dressed as women and there's a man [TS]

  who's passing fairly well as well as a [TS]

  woman and they dance and it's just I i [TS]

  thought this would be this great scene [TS]

  in a movie because it's it's it's it's [TS]

  it's completely inverting your usual [TS]

  expectation of a man and a woman on a [TS]

  dance floor and it react it's just it's [TS]

  i really love that scene because it says [TS]

  so much and so much about the oppression [TS]

  and so much about the the the [TS]

  undercurrent of society and these people [TS]

  are involved in this terrible society [TS]

  and yet they have this one place where [TS]

  they can go and then also contact the [TS]

  Carmichael just hate it it's just not [TS]

  for him he's completely suppress [TS]

  everything about that part of his [TS]

  identity [TS]

  it's just not part of who he is so in [TS]

  this this book is interesting because a [TS]

  it's a it's clearly they want the last [TS]

  book because it's come to a head things [TS]

  come to a head right instead of it being [TS]

  this well in a series of novels [TS]

  Carmichael you know is is getting Jews [TS]

  out of England on the side while in [TS]

  investigating things and doing horrible [TS]

  things for the government but no in fact [TS]

  in this book [TS]

  he's got powerful enemies they know and [TS]

  can blackmail him as well it's sort of [TS]

  the other police force and there's this [TS]

  infighting because this is the sort of [TS]

  government is starting to crack up a [TS]

  little bit mirror these these competing [TS]

  factions and and and the plot against [TS]

  Norman B and it comes to a head where [TS]

  his ward is arrested because she goes to [TS]

  this fascist rally because it might be [TS]

  fun fashion that sounds like a kick and [TS]

  but there to fascist well thatthat's the [TS]

  things that turns it turns into a rally [TS]

  that's an anti Normanby rally because he [TS]

  doesn't go far enough right [TS]

  and then there's a riot and she gets [TS]

  arrested in the poll leader of the [TS]

  police feels like he can use her against [TS]

  Carmichael and Carmichael duh does [TS]

  increasingly dangerous things because he [TS]

  doesn't want to be pushed around and I [TS]

  think he feels on another level like he [TS]

  sort of has nothing to lose and and it [TS]

  all falls I mean it all falls apart kind [TS]

  of pretty dramatically to the point [TS]

  where he first off he just walks up to [TS]

  the place where the transferring her [TS]

  from one jail to the place where they're [TS]

  going to torture her and just says we're [TS]

  taking her which shows that his attitude [TS]

  is the watch can do whatever the police [TS]

  can you know can suck it [TS]

  the world we're going to take we're [TS]

  gonna take her we're gonna walk away we [TS]

  just like wow I mean totally you know [TS]

  totally above the law [TS]

  totally outside it whatever we think of [TS]

  the society it's like totally against [TS]

  the rules to do something and he's like [TS]

  whatever I'm the head of the watch i can [TS]

  do whatever i want but what happens is [TS]

  that they he takes her and they take [TS]

  Jack and that's that that's the really [TS]

  as many many things that happened at the [TS]

  end of this book that are positive they [TS]

  take Jack and he doesn't make it [TS]

  he he kills himself rather than give up [TS]

  secrets about Carmichael and which is [TS]

  which is just tragic [TS]

  it's it's terrible and there's a moment [TS]

  where Carmichael thinks about giving up [TS]

  the [TS]

  girl just to get his guy back and feels [TS]

  incredibly guilty about it afterward but [TS]

  so you know he ends up on the run and [TS]

  it's it's amazing because you're [TS]

  thinking I i don't know i read it as you [TS]

  know i'm reading a series and you almost [TS]

  expect the premise to stay steady and [TS]

  instead she blows it up like halfway [TS]

  through this book everything has [TS]

  completely been blown up [TS]

  yeah i'm i'm gonna tell you right off i [TS]

  have it was really disappointing because [TS]

  I felt like super like you say she broke [TS]

  the mood [TS]

  there's too much change there's a she [TS]

  tries to pack too much in and then you [TS]

  get the Irish revolutionary who is a war [TS]

  hero comes back and I do something [TS]

  stupid [TS]

  where it's barely explaining i'm looking [TS]

  at the end with the sort of giant she's [TS]

  a very bad sniper [TS]

  yeah well I wanted to say really quickly [TS]

  about the three female characters right [TS]

  was saying earlier on so as not to give [TS]

  away spoilers that you know they all [TS]

  make very specific decisions and in part [TS]

  based on their class I think and I think [TS]

  it's very interesting and kind of [TS]

  fascinating that the girl who was [TS]

  brought up entirely in high society [TS]

  chooses to flee rather than face you [TS]

  know fascism and everything that's going [TS]

  on right the girl who was brought up in [TS]

  high society and then turns her back on [TS]

  it [TS]

  who is viola because she's I mean it was [TS]

  established that she's pretty she is a [TS]

  you know a used to be an artist anything [TS]

  like that shes black superficial burns [TS]

  she spurns that she decides if she [TS]

  decides to basically blow up it would ya [TS]

  light and then we get we get rolls [TS]

  royces daughter Elvira who is by all [TS]

  rights and means a commenter who has [TS]

  been given the rights of a noble and she [TS]

  chooses to basically use these and turn [TS]

  them into something like Carmichael [TS]

  where she chooses to basically [TS]

  investigate and uncover and eventually [TS]

  goes to the queen with her [TS]

  yeah so so II I i kinda like the fact [TS]

  that everything gets blown up and falls [TS]

  pieces because this whole series is [TS]

  about like weird and dark and England [TS]

  and bad feelings and all that i was [TS]

  surprised by the end of this book [TS]

  because she tries to put a happy ending [TS]

  on this series and and I it's a little [TS]

  bit of a queen ex machina well no I mean [TS]

  in the end in the end it's sort of like [TS]

  but the spirit of the British people [TS]

  comes two comes to life at the end they [TS]

  don't they don't like the fact sending [TS]

  people to a concentration camp on the [TS]

  continent [TS]

  that's fine but we're not going to build [TS]

  a concentration camp here that's not [TS]

  British that's terrible [TS]

  and the Queen has something to say about [TS]

  it and mcqueen you know i get it i don't [TS]

  know i mean it it's nice that it's a [TS]

  happy ending but it didn't it didn't [TS]

  seem particularly realistic to me that [TS]

  that would be the solution to all of [TS]

  this is that they would you know they [TS]

  would they would take his police files [TS]

  that proved that Normandy was involved [TS]

  in the plot from the first book and and [TS]

  give it to the Queen and simultaneously [TS]

  hit you no virus talking to the queen [TS]

  and the guy who got the book from [TS]

  carmichael is waiting right behind her [TS]

  to give the book to the Queen a in you [TS]

  know she wanted a happy ending so she [TS]

  gave them one she's giving the speech [TS]

  she's giving the speech the Queen gives [TS]

  a talk at this extensible peace [TS]

  conference which is sort of dividing up [TS]

  the planet into different realms and [TS]

  she's like Hitler's right there [TS]

  she's giving this talk about England [TS]

  turning its back and whatever i'm like [TS]

  well he might just choose to invade this [TS]

  point all right right because he's well [TS]

  but he's like this point and I'm we're [TS]

  talking about 19 what 64 65 Hitler this [TS]

  point is an older man and it sounds like [TS]

  while germany's you know we gonna look [TS]

  this is a mellow hitting hell yeah well [TS]

  they and their extended because they're [TS]

  carving of prussia and they've got mean [TS]

  thatthat's I did wonder about that that [TS]

  that what are the consequences of this [TS]

  for England England end up getting yeah [TS]

  getting attacked or do they just sort of [TS]

  let them let them go off and and [TS]

  democracy it's not as well it's not [TS]

  necessarily a phantom mean just [TS]

  replacing Normanby doesn't necessarily [TS]

  mean the backing off a little bit is not [TS]

  the same as turning their back on [TS]

  well that's what Carmichael kind of says [TS]

  the end of the second [TS]

  the book where it's like yeah you can [TS]

  kill Hitler and kill Normanby but the [TS]

  country is so far down the rabbit hole [TS]

  fascism that a new leader is not going [TS]

  to magically cure it's a slow process [TS]

  but that's why her for her premise here [TS]

  is that is that enough of this happens [TS]

  that it's a bridge too far that the [TS]

  society that the oppression gets a [TS]

  little too extreme and people who would [TS]

  go along with it to a point it goes [TS]

  they push it a little too far and then [TS]

  people say oh well this is indecent you [TS]

  shouldn't do that and it's things like [TS]

  the like the concentration camp opening [TS]

  up and there's that scene where they're [TS]

  on the TV show and they announced so [TS]

  we're gonna have a concentration camp [TS]

  right here in England and people start [TS]

  to feel like what wait a second that's [TS]

  not right so that's her premises that [TS]

  pushed far enough eventually the fraud [TS]

  realizes that it's in boiling water and [TS]

  it jumps out well I guess what she's [TS]

  trying to say i think that people were [TS]

  gradually more and more comfortable with [TS]

  it but they found themselves in like an [TS]

  East German situation you know before [TS]

  the wall comes down and there's not much [TS]

  to send in the center sort of shipped [TS]

  off to the continent by people like in [TS]

  fact Carmichael in the watch but you [TS]

  know they're they're sending people off [TS]

  all the time and he's smuggling people [TS]

  out of the country and you know what he [TS]

  has done to send but you know that the [TS]

  thing that I didn't like in the in this [TS]

  book to is that protest on the peaceful [TS]

  protests but the the watch and the [TS]

  police are apparently someone over [TS]

  extended to with all the security that [TS]

  has to happen and you know they haven't [TS]

  made every other person a policeman or [TS]

  watch officer so the peaceful approach [TS]

  to start to happen and chemicals like [TS]

  yeah let's not crack down on those let's [TS]

  let those just go make sure nothing [TS]

  happens and it's negative sentence at [TS]

  the name of his so number two guys in on [TS]

  shipping out jus secretly and his Jewish [TS]

  himself is like the token jew and the [TS]

  watch to show the third tolerant or [TS]

  something [TS]

  I that that whole thing we're like [TS]

  Jacobson just sort of that I would [TS]

  enforce this will be more peaceful [TS]

  protests and nothing can go wrong with [TS]

  that and then there's enough peaceful [TS]

  protests covered by the media and the [TS]

  Queen finds out [TS]

  oh my gosh these terrible thing as well [TS]

  she's watching people being exported no [TS]

  sent away for 20 years to concentration [TS]

  camps natural like well I really rather [TS]

  didn't like that I think things have [TS]

  gone a bit too far so it's time to [TS]

  change things i thought it's a little [TS]

  too convenient [TS]

  yeah although I mean to be fair to the [TS]

  queen she would not have [TS]

  Ben queen for very long at that point [TS]

  she would have only been Queen since 52 [TS]

  so Malia was a plot about this okay [TS]

  leaders coming back and and that's [TS]

  actually a really fascinating thing is [TS]

  that her her uncle who was the king who [TS]

  abandoned he advocated because you [TS]

  wanted to marry American device a wallis [TS]

  simpson action is he in this and he was [TS]

  he was in reality accused of being a [TS]

  Hitler sympathizer yeah and he fled and [TS]

  you know when he abdicated lived in [TS]

  France for a long time and so in this [TS]

  book he is basically a part of the plot [TS]

  to overthrow I mean you get the sense [TS]

  that it's part of its going to overthrow [TS]

  the government and he's gonna basically [TS]

  come back and re-establish himself as [TS]

  the king and get rid of the rest of the [TS]

  Royals and all of that and and put in a [TS]

  new fascist the government and so so the [TS]

  Queen on one level you know this has [TS]

  affected her too and she's young i mean [TS]

  she's she's she's young and came to [TS]

  power after all of this had already gone [TS]

  on so in some ways you could if you want [TS]

  to be charitable [TS]

  this is the Queen the young Queen [TS]

  feeling like she actually can make a [TS]

  difference this is the one place where [TS]

  she can step in and and get her country [TS]

  back on on the right track but i do love [TS]

  the logic though it's a time there was [TS]

  this point when Russia with his are you [TS]

  know he will likely only desire knew [TS]

  about what was happening it was always [TS]

  that you know if I don't get word to him [TS]

  this isn't that there's a movie i think [TS]

  in which a very early film in which that [TS]

  sort of portrayed of these are finally [TS]

  being told that he's like yeah whatever [TS]

  i don't care president's gonna go you [TS]

  know that like me and that's it like [TS]

  well only the Queen wouldn't know well [TS]

  this young woman happens to be in the [TS]

  right position to know the whole just so [TS]

  happens I easy sequence which she gets [TS]

  her dress and she manages to change and [TS]

  she goes the debutante ball and she [TS]

  suggests the queen of Queens man and [TS]

  then you get started and she didn't I [TS]

  went there looking for around the [TS]

  streets they're not looking for her at [TS]

  the debutante ball strikes lie would you [TS]

  look for her to do so and yeah I just I [TS]

  thought this was full of [TS]

  I think there's nothing the Duke of [TS]

  Windsor plot just goes nowhere sort of [TS]

  ridiculous the Irish you know IRA guy [TS]

  who becomes a war hero and then you know [TS]

  as part of the plan the second 1i didn't [TS]

  need to see him again [TS]

  well I'm like any shoots he tries to [TS]

  shoot Hitler any missing like yeah this [TS]

  guy got shot [TS]

  what the hell was that like why did you [TS]

  even introduce him and then the heart of [TS]

  gold of the of you know the else's [TS]

  daughter she finds her mother again yeah [TS]

  I refines the reminder I would abandon [TS]

  her great the stepfather is great too [TS]

  and ok no each other all these years for [TS]

  what what what yeah Scott what did you [TS]

  think I'm I I don't remember much of [TS]

  this puck yeah even though that was the [TS]

  lambing and obviously i don't know what [TS]

  about the Zeppelin's whoo Zeppelin's uh [TS]

  escape me although i I uh [TS]

  obviously talking about it now has its [TS]

  recoup by my memory and I just thought [TS]

  that the aisle I looked at the book as a [TS]

  character study of carmichael and how he [TS]

  is trying to fit into this system that [TS]

  he's an outsider right and then because [TS]

  it is his homosexual miss yes and so he [TS]

  he's trying to be something that he [TS]

  isn't because right can't tell people [TS]

  about it right and that he becomes even [TS]

  more of something that he isn't and then [TS]

  he tries to work against the system [TS]

  while he's in the system but he's also [TS]

  you know killing the Jews and helping [TS]

  the Jews and he's just being pulled in [TS]

  so many different directions and he he [TS]

  wants to see Hitler died but he has to [TS]

  save Hitler [TS]

  save Hitler [TS]

  because that's his character and then at [TS]

  the end you know his his lover is dead [TS]

  and his job is gone and uh who knows if [TS]

  he's really changed anything or help [TS]

  anyone and it's just kind of it's very [TS]

  sad [TS]

  I just don't like him sort of going off [TS]

  jauntily like well jack is dead isn't [TS]

  that terrible i'm like oh no no I don't [TS]

  agree I think he's I I didn't read that [TS]

  way i mean is i think it moved [TS]

  I think at the end he is he's what would [TS]

  be interesting if there was ever any [TS]

  more writing in this in this universe is [TS]

  what happens to Carmichael now because [TS]

  he is sort of he's lost everything at [TS]

  this point i mean i guess he's got his [TS]

  young Ward who didn't care about other [TS]

  than to make sure out of some sort of [TS]

  obligation that she was okay but she's [TS]

  it disturbed by the fact that he's gay [TS]

  because she's told that and she has the [TS]

  feelings that somebody in that society [TS]

  apparently would have about that and and [TS]

  is he is not offend ya and his partner [TS]

  is gone and his job is gone and you know [TS]

  he's a representative of this evil [TS]

  period in history that that where he's [TS]

  he's a war is a terrible terrible [TS]

  criminal [TS]

  yeah an example of poor human-rights who [TS]

  would be like gonna go global or [TS]

  Hitler's something yeah so it's like [TS]

  he's he's um so that is fascinating that [TS]

  is the dark part of this and I i think [TS]

  that i think Carmichael is the reason [TS]

  that this book is it's good I i liked it [TS]

  isn't as good as the other two and the [TS]

  ending does seem a little bit too like [TS]

  struggle to have a happy ending but [TS]

  Carmichael story and and seeing more [TS]

  about him [TS]

  I thought that was I thought that was [TS]

  really good and he really came out to [TS]

  the fourth is tragic [TS]

  no and it is so it's so sad look for [TS]

  will be two-and-a-half quit it will be [TS]

  off the truth reconciliation committee [TS]

  meetings after the after democracy is [TS]

  restored [TS]

  well I mean I'll i actually II it's [TS]

  funny I I wonder you mentioned that he [TS]

  is essentially a criminal and I wonder [TS]

  if in a reformed Britain that they might [TS]

  put on trial it will work returns and [TS]

  and then they would have to bring up and [TS]

  then that's when the cons come back and [TS]

  explain that he helped them escape and [TS]

  that they bring the Jews who he funneled [TS]

  to Canada and other places and I mean it [TS]

  might be actually kind [TS]

  interesting to read the trial of [TS]

  carmichael oh he could go all dr. on us [TS]

  and travel the world bringing democracy [TS]

  another you know bring going into [TS]

  Germany with all of his knowledge of all [TS]

  the international relations e ad and [TS]

  toppling the government's they are [TS]

  coming to America and getting the [TS]

  Lindbergh successors just a cop [TS]

  yes he's not he's been a guy who wants [TS]

  to change the world he just wants to do [TS]

  his job and and have people are brought [TS]

  to justice and he just sucked into this [TS]

  whole kind of weird political happening [TS]

  that he has no control over he's just a [TS]

  pawn for all these forces all and he [TS]

  just wants to live his life with Jack [TS]

  and be left alone and you know solve [TS]

  crimes but he's suddenly you know at the [TS]

  end he's a Gestapo head and then you [TS]

  know the Queen he's out of work and jack [TS]

  is dead and yeah it's really I could [TS]

  have a moment I mean I think it's [TS]

  realistic that did it would be like well [TS]

  you know you you can't be here anymore [TS]

  so you're gone but at the same time I [TS]

  kept saying but but wait he's good he he [TS]

  he he you know he made all this happen [TS]

  you you need it shouldn't [TS]

  can't somebody isn't there somebody out [TS]

  there like the guy who brings the book [TS]

  to the Queen say this is Carmichael's [TS]

  butthole [TS]

  he was funny he was funneling Jews to [TS]

  Canada all the time he's not a bad guy [TS]

  and you know but he but the tragedy [TS]

  there is that as the queen says he's [TS]

  Normanby his creation even if if it [TS]

  turns out that that's not really true [TS]

  he's perceived as being this horrible [TS]

  person who is the head of the watch and [TS]

  he's part of the Normandy normally thing [TS]

  and so he's on the outs which is really [TS]

  unfair i think it's i think it's [TS]

  realistic that he would be treated that [TS]

  way but you you you look at that you [TS]

  think it's it's just it's a shame [TS]

  because he you know he he had he sort of [TS]

  the reason we got to this point but he [TS]

  also did all these terrible things as [TS]

  the head of the watch and everything [TS]

  continues but also it was responsible [TS]

  for the death of lots of juice yet I'm [TS]

  save Hitler and he saved it lacks so the [TS]

  this trilogy in in the end we like it [TS]

  recommend it [TS]

  let's go around the ren yes I think very [TS]

  much so is very very disturbing but I'm [TS]

  a fan of alternate history always even [TS]

  when it's terrible and these books were [TS]

  quite [TS]

  good yeah it's you know this is a very [TS]

  common you know what if the Nazis won [TS]

  World War 2 is a commonplace all history [TS]

  subject my i like how how different this [TS]

  treatment was from some of the others [TS]

  that i've read that you know fatherland [TS]

  and James Hogan had a the produce [TS]

  operation which was about an alt alt [TS]

  world war two and they're there are so [TS]

  many there's a whole look of all [TS]

  travelers is important ones you brought [TS]

  the full dick one the man behind the [TS]

  high castle yeah uh Scott recommended [TS]

  liked [TS]

  well I i think i recommended it to the [TS]

  people on this podcast and hence the [TS]

  podcast so yes I nude your i would [TS]

  recommend it I thought it was very good [TS]

  i mean it's very sad so if you're [TS]

  looking for this and uplifting trilogy [TS]

  perhaps don't read this but I mean I [TS]

  haven't enjoyed the fact that I i spent [TS]

  a week dwelling on how shocking and [TS]

  awful the first book was I mean it the [TS]

  resolution of it I liked it but I you [TS]

  know you have to like the dark sad [TS]

  ending makes you have to think about [TS]

  things and record question your life and [TS]

  all that I you got to be in that mindset [TS]

  but but a very enjoyable [TS]

  it's not what I would call a beach read [TS]

  unless you like to go on the beach [TS]

  unless it's a very enter [TS]

  winter cold bloody cold beach and you're [TS]

  shivering this boiler hard keeps going [TS]

  on [TS]

  yeah sound poor me you're mean you read [TS]

  but yeah I think John Walton as is a [TS]

  fantastic writer and so and i will read [TS]

  all of her books and i'm reading the one [TS]

  that's right [TS]

  dragons thumbs up to her but acts mmm [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  thumbs up Glenn you too happy I i read [TS]

  so lengthy elsewhere the podcast i'll [TS]

  just say yeah I recommended even though [TS]

  I'm disappointed with half-a-crown not [TS]

  so much that they don't read it unlike a [TS]

  lot of the trilogy's we discussed on [TS]

  this book RSS podcast looks part of the [TS]

  podcaster I think it's not a strong [TS]

  finish as I'd like she does tie things [TS]

  up and the first two books are first one [TS]

  especially second quite good and the [TS]

  third weaker but as a trilogy it holds [TS]

  together she tells the complete story [TS]

  and I love her work i'll read her over [TS]

  and over again [TS]

  yeah i agree i agree this was this was [TS]

  good stuff I enjoyable [TS]

  in the challenging sense of enjoyable [TS]

  but and fun how she mixes a bunch of [TS]

  different stuff together like you said [TS]

  Glenn the master of illusion she's she's [TS]

  got lots of bits of things that she kind [TS]

  of sticks together and if she was just [TS]

  writing a knockoff of a of a manor house [TS]

  mystery it might not be so effective but [TS]

  the fact that she's got so many [TS]

  different kinds of things in the blender [TS]

  and so I i gotta say what versatile [TS]

  writer because among others is nothing [TS]

  like these books it's just no it's [TS]

  nothing like these books book about the [TS]

  dragons and the hats is also my business [TS]

  it's completely different tone and [TS]

  indifferent obviously all the characters [TS]

  are dragons so that's quite different [TS]

  gas but yeah she's a she i think knows [TS]

  how to write [TS]

  yeah she's good writer she's written a [TS]

  groups book so why not that is who is [TS]

  groups groups is role-playing game [TS]

  system drop yeah and she writes a we [TS]

  should say she writes regularly on [TS]

  tor.com she's reads reads books and does [TS]

  of interesting commentary she's done a [TS]

  reread of the Patrick Rothfuss books the [TS]

  name of the wind and wise man's fear in [TS]

  great detail and a very detailed reread [TS]

  and really good stuff makes me want to [TS]

  reread them and and go along with it's [TS]

  almost like she's annotating those books [TS]

  and so she's she's a good writer even [TS]

  when she's writing about other people's [TS]

  stuff so that's that's kinda cool to [TS]

  that she's out there in the world and [TS]

  blogging on tor.com so and I think that [TS]

  her voracious reading I get the sense [TS]

  she reads a lot that has really informs [TS]

  her writing because she has so many [TS]

  different interests in so many different [TS]

  literary style that she likes that she [TS]

  can play with it and get create all [TS]

  these crazy mixed-up books that she does [TS]

  in a good way [TS]

  alright well I think it's time to close [TS]

  up the the book club for this week for [TS]

  this time and we'll be back [TS]

  I i guess i should say we haven't picked [TS]

  what our next book club book will be [TS]

  have we [TS]

  Scott have you picked if you told us [TS]

  what to read yeah I suggest the cloud [TS]

  atlas [TS]

  don't know if anyone is interested oh [TS]

  yeah well have not begun yet what we'll [TS]

  talk about it will will will put [TS]

  something together we'll figure it out [TS]

  and one way we do this is that for those [TS]

  of you who follow along with the book [TS]

  club will post it on our Twitter feed at [TS]

  the uncomfortable and we will post it on [TS]

  our Goodreads group you can find there's [TS]

  a incomparable good group on Goodreads [TS]

  and we'll post it there as well so [TS]

  you'll know what we're reading and you [TS]

  can read it and then listen to the [TS]

  podcast and maybe it will be Cloud Atlas [TS]

  I don't know I I would be fine with that [TS]

  i saw the trailer for that movie and it [TS]

  looks crazy [TS]

  so we should read the book so that we [TS]

  don't have Tom Hanks in our head where [TS]

  yeah you probably want to read it before [TS]

  she did before we see the movie [TS]

  good point good advice yeah yeah and and [TS]

  I've Scott that hasn't skipped hasn't [TS]

  steered me wrong yet [TS]

  high praise yes yet the at the others [TS]

  but I you keep the room for disappoints [TS]

  coming that's gonna happen just like [TS]

  Hitler is gonna come [TS]

  no alright so so until next time until [TS]

  we pick a book and come back and read [TS]

  more books i would like to thank my [TS]

  guests Glenn fleischmann thank you for [TS]

  being here thank you very much [TS]

  IC Zeppelin and for reading any book so [TS]

  if you see Zeppelin's then its alternate [TS]

  climate i'm speaking to serenity called [TS]

  well thank you very much [TS]

  you're welcome i'm glad i don't have to [TS]

  memorize obscure British currency [TS]

  anymore and their orders now that I've [TS]

  finished but she didn't even do [TS]

  shillings right are things shillings [TS]

  yeah showing so I can be the fourth [TS]

  there are too many things for that can [TS]

  be shillings and Scott McNulty of course [TS]

  who reads everything and and sees [TS]

  everything and knows everything I knew [TS]

  you were going to say it [TS]

  yes of course and now we'll go through [TS]

  the time machine and thank Dan Morgan [TS]

  who went away just say goodbye dan [TS]

  thanks for being here even though you [TS]

  didn't finish the third book and [TS]

  contribute to that part [TS]

  well I'm glad to be here and i've been [TS]

  reading the third book as you guys have [TS]

  been tossing the third book very clever [TS]

  i just checked for Zeppelin outside the [TS]

  window she keep always watching for [TS]

  example which is odd because that's the [TS]

  tell-tale sign now [TS]

  no thanks Dan Warren thanksgiving [TS]

  morning thanks you didn't even though [TS]

  he's he had to [TS]

  give us because he didn't want to hear [TS]

  what he had to say about the third book [TS]

  until he finished it's nice that he's [TS]

  reading a while we're doing the podcast [TS]

  put this baby is finished and how could [TS]

  he come back [TS]

  yeah it's even its gets keep them off [TS]

  the streets I think that's the most [TS]

  important thing with damp mean streets [TS]

  of something that's exactly right [TS]

  so until next time thank you listener [TS]

  for listening to another in comfortable [TS]

  book club and we'll see you next time [TS]

  yeah and boy was it lucky that you know [TS]

  her governess ends up being somebody who [TS]

  can very conveniently shit people out of [TS]

  the country computer camera get yeah [TS]

  yeah sure [TS]

  Canada's always safe because its a fate [TS]

  worse than death [TS]

  yeah but it's it's funny because we're [TS]

  awful sorry canada my my poor country is [TS]

  under the butt of jokes that's okay [TS]

  don't let it get to you you're letting [TS]

  him and you can't let him get inside [TS]

  this silly and Canadian Joe callaway [TS]

  Canadians are persecuted in great [TS]

  britain you know [TS]

  yes here shipped off to where they ship [TS]

  them to I don't even know again I knew I [TS]

  nobody can I birria de they're used to [TS]

  bet that [TS]

  yeah subway it's warm haha oh I have the [TS]

  episode title its well that's nice a [TS]

  brown but how did you like the play [TS]

  I don't get it [TS]