The Incomparable

102: Princess Indiana Jones

 

  where's the Meryl Streep action movie I [TS]

  demand it [TS]

  the Contras below podcast 102 artists [TS]

  went where [TS]

  welcome back everybody to be [TS]

  uncomfortable podcast I'm your host [TS]

  Jason snail and on this episode of the [TS]

  uncomfortable we're going to be talking [TS]

  about the latest Pixar movie brave which [TS]

  came out a few weeks ago maybe more than [TS]

  a month ago and we're gonna follow that [TS]

  path and probably talk about female [TS]

  protagonist in other animated movies and [TS]

  maybe even beyond joining me to talk [TS]

  about this subject tonight are for [TS]

  esteemed panelists first up serenity [TS]

  Caldwell hi thanks for being here [TS]

  hello thanks for inviting me Jason [TS]

  yeah I more than happy and also i was [TS]

  happy that you could provide some female [TS]

  representation on this episode since [TS]

  Lisa couldn't make it and all the rest [TS]

  of them are dudes so that yeah yeah so [TS]

  here's a guy who I haven't checked with [TS]

  the Olympic officials who are in charge [TS]

  of gender testing but i'm pretty sure is [TS]

  male and Cal hi welcome alteration we [TS]

  haven't discussed it before but we don't [TS]

  know how to pull out children names of [TS]

  these characters last we talked about it [TS]

  in distraction sir actually least until [TS]

  like a tired of it I'm going to be [TS]

  talking electronic collar Atlantis [TS]

  entire podcast [TS]

  alright I don't I this [TS]

  ok i'm sick of it I'm really sorry David [TS]

  Morgan isn't here since he does by far [TS]

  the best terrible Sean Connery [TS]

  impression that I've heard [TS]

  also joining us today his accent [TS]

  indeterminate is Dan Frakes hi Dan [TS]

  hey Jason it's good to have you back [TS]

  thank you also a male by the way if [TS]

  you're wondering [TS]

  otherwise you'd be Danielle will be [TS]

  different and John siracusa is here [TS]

  because this is about pixar and where [TS]

  when we cover pixar John siracusa is [TS]

  always here [TS]

  hi John Jason I come by my accent [TS]

  honestly it's it's straight from Long [TS]

  Island [TS]

  you got it yeah so we have talked about [TS]

  pixar before i should say that up at the [TS]

  beginning and if you would like to hear [TS]

  us talk about all the many other pixar [TS]

  movies that were made before brave and [TS]

  cars to you know I still haven't seen [TS]

  courage to me neither [TS]

  no I which I have finally seen it i've [TS]

  not seen cars number one I just did by [TS]

  the [TS]

  promise i seen car 54 where are you know [TS]

  i have seen that here in the sons of [TS]

  talking cars and it's see it's i don't [TS]

  i'm an amount insisting i'm right here [TS]

  it's just that I see the trailers it [TS]

  wasn't that funny it's like wait a [TS]

  minute if why are there seats if there's [TS]

  a play this is a planet in which humans [TS]

  have never existed [TS]

  one of the cars have seats don't [TS]

  overthink it and II exactly see this [TS]

  again but this time it's just I'm not [TS]

  assisting them right in saying that it [TS]

  was not a strong enough concept to get [TS]

  me to cauterize that neuron that was [TS]

  asking these questions understand why [TS]

  their seat [TS]

  it's not their cars makes a whole lot [TS]

  more sense if you think about it [TS]

  entirely as a story within the Toy Story [TS]

  universe wherein someone is playing out [TS]

  the cars story on a place at somewhere i [TS]

  like that that's brilliant that's very [TS]

  good i'm going to use that alright [TS]

  that's good now you can watch it with [TS]

  that framework in mind anyway if you [TS]

  would like to hear us talk about pixar [TS]

  incomparable episode 49 it's like [TS]

  working roll with monsters and fifty we [TS]

  apologize for the extinction of the [TS]

  clownfish that will give you an hour and [TS]

  15 minutes of me john siracusa and Steve [TS]

  let's walking through our favorite [TS]

  moments in the pixar cannon so check [TS]

  that out if you haven't already but uh [TS]

  but here we're going to be talking about [TS]

  brave which is new and i speaking of [TS]

  course to I went into brave with [TS]

  diminished expectations i have to say as [TS]

  somebody who has loved pixar movies [TS]

  since toy story and owns all up two cars [TS]

  and not including cars 2 on DVD and love [TS]

  Pixar movies before I had kids and of [TS]

  course now my kids have loved watching [TS]

  those movies too [TS]

  i I don't know maybe it was that I had [TS]

  skipped cars 2 and and was just kind of [TS]

  down on on the direction of where [TS]

  picture was going or what but I i had [TS]

  very low expectations going in to brave [TS]

  low to no expectations I i really didn't [TS]

  I wasn't as enthusiastic about it i want [TS]

  with the whole family which was great [TS]

  but I I was not sort of dragging them [TS]

  they're like I might to some other movie [TS]

  that i really want to see and you know [TS]

  so i don't know i don't want to give up [TS]

  we should say the spoiler for the movie [TS]

  we're going to talk about moving spoil [TS]

  it so if you don't want to know what [TS]

  happens in the movie [TS]

  don't listen but I liked it [TS]

  i'll give you that spoiler I I came out [TS]

  of it saying I liked it way more than I [TS]

  had ever expected to and I I can't [TS]

  decide how much of that is just my [TS]

  diminished expectations versus how much [TS]

  how much I i liked it and we've talked [TS]

  about in previous podcast and I do [TS]

  believe sometimes it's all about your [TS]

  expectations and whether they were met [TS]

  or exceeded or not that influences your [TS]

  emotions when you're watching a movie [TS]

  and when it's over [TS]

  so how did everybody else feel about [TS]

  about brave let's talk about the the [TS]

  film as a whole [TS]

  first off John you want to start yeah i [TS]

  actually went home with very high [TS]

  expectations I i finally did get around [TS]

  to see them cars 2 and it wasn't the [TS]

  disaster everyone said it was but it [TS]

  certainly yeah like I can understand why [TS]

  people were doing it my expectations for [TS]

  cars to archive of expectations for [TS]

  brave very high and a lot of it gets [TS]

  back to the previous podcast we're [TS]

  talking about a female protagonist pics [TS]

  are on my other broadcast talked about [TS]

  how that's that pic that picture was [TS]

  challenging itself right one example [TS]

  that might be though you know why I'm [TS]

  they had a female protagonist maybe it's [TS]

  hard to do those kinds of stories so [TS]

  when I saw they were making a movie with [TS]

  a female protagonist that got that got [TS]

  my hopes up that they were gonna go in a [TS]

  different direction than the other [TS]

  movies they've done so because the other [TS]

  movies like don't fit into that there [TS]

  was a certain formula for our kind of [TS]

  male centered male-oriented movie that [TS]

  they've made so far they've done [TS]

  excellent and that great great movies [TS]

  but this is this necessarily had to be [TS]

  something different and it could have [TS]

  been different in a terrible way [TS]

  different a good way black citations [TS]

  were very very high mostly because i [TS]

  stayed almost entirely spoiler freeze [TS]

  all I knew about it like any more notch [TS]

  trail is all I knew is female [TS]

  protagonist Scotland medieval thing go [TS]

  and i don't think it exceeded my [TS]

  expectations but I think met them I was [TS]

  pretty happy with that something would [TS]

  be twice in the theater actually at the [TS]

  insistence of my two young children who [TS]

  wanted to go back to movie theaters see [TS]

  it again so success on that measure and [TS]

  both times I saw it in the theater I i [TS]

  liked it i I think it did interesting [TS]

  things and it really made me think about [TS]

  what they actually did there [TS]

  it didn't it didn't seem like obvious or [TS]

  pat or try to me about the same token i [TS]

  also have this nagging feeling that they [TS]

  still don't quite know what to do with [TS]

  female protagonist so it'sit's maybe [TS]

  turn over my mind a lot but I overall [TS]

  give it a thumbs up [TS]

  I should as a footnote that I think you [TS]

  discuss pics are on hypercritical number [TS]

  12 and number 13 [TS]

  if you need to look it up if the [TS]

  internet i have an encyclopedic [TS]

  knowledge of the hyper of high do not so [TS]

  you kidding i know every I i I've made a [TS]

  supercut of only you talking about pixar [TS]

  and yeah anyway still eight hours like [TS]

  it is it's very long [TS]

  brand what did you think of brave i [TS]

  quite liked it i went in with anti [TS]

  medium high expectations [TS]

  I mean my history with pics are [TS]

  basically is that I've gone to every [TS]

  single pixar film either in a midnight [TS]

  release or on the day that the movie [TS]

  came out so I'm you know I'm a big fan [TS]

  of their work in general and I was [TS]

  really curious to like many people I [TS]

  imagine to see what they were going to [TS]

  do with a pseudo traditional fairy tale [TS]

  and I'm all for free male protagonist [TS]

  especially when they're written well and [TS]

  I think Mara is a shit they're they're [TS]

  definitely spots throughout the film [TS]

  where maybe it's not quite [TS]

  hammering home the message that I think [TS]

  they want but i think on the whole the [TS]

  film is really solid it's really fun to [TS]

  watch and i had the pleasure of watching [TS]

  it with two young children who were [TS]

  horribly scared at the scary parts and [TS]

  horribly excited during the exciting you [TS]

  know adventure ii parts and what I [TS]

  really like about this film and what [TS]

  stuck with me a few days after I watched [TS]

  it i only watch this one once in [TS]

  theaters which is unusual for me but i [TS]

  have not been getting to a lot of movies [TS]

  lately I'm i really find the [TS]

  mother-daughter relationship in this [TS]

  film which is clearly what it's built [TS]

  around but really go out of their way to [TS]

  really solidify it in very specific ways [TS]

  which we'll talk about later I assume [TS]

  that i really appreciate the way that [TS]

  they [TS]

  you know honed in on specific things [TS]

  like yes we want to we want to basically [TS]

  use a small but mostly inconsequential [TS]

  detail to highlight a feature of their [TS]

  relationship and that's that's something [TS]

  you don't see a lot of movies doing a [TS]

  lot of movies will kind of brush over it [TS]

  in broad strokes and be like yes teenage [TS]

  girl rebelling from her mother and you [TS]

  know that they do the the archetype the [TS]

  stereotype I but this movie I think [TS]

  starts with stereotype and then opens it [TS]

  up further which I which I really enjoy [TS]

  it and I'm actually kind of sad that I [TS]

  didn't see this with my mother i feel [TS]

  like i've seen all previous pixar films [TS]

  with her and I feel like that was this [TS]

  would have been a good one to co-author [TS]

  i will now enter into the official [TS]

  record if your honor will let me remind [TS]

  you might be the judge here i order that [TS]

  this be put in the official record a [TS]

  piece called just another princess movie [TS]

  on the new inquiry will put it in the [TS]

  show notes and it is bio woman whose [TS]

  name is very difficult to pronounce its [TS]

  Lily looper oh I believe a great long [TS]

  essay about how about exactly what [TS]

  you're saying about how it on one level [TS]

  this is the the movie we sort of expect [TS]

  in terms of princesses and her mother [TS]

  says you'll be you know you one of these [TS]

  Prince's will become your husband and [TS]

  she repels and you think you know where [TS]

  the where the arc of the story is going [TS]

  and you you actually don't which was one [TS]

  of the things that delighted me about it [TS]

  but will so we'll get back to that let's [TS]

  continue my pole damn freaks [TS]

  what did you feel generally about movie [TS]

  I i went into it with pretty high [TS]

  expectations like John I saw you know [TS]

  that the premises Scottish historical [TS]

  background female protagonists pixar I [TS]

  thought the previous are gorgeous so i [TS]

  was pretty excited i came out i think i [TS]

  was pleased with that I think it was a [TS]

  little bit less than my expectations for [TS]

  reasons we'll probably get into it [TS]

  mainly because it just felt a little [TS]

  less pics are a little more Disney and I [TS]

  know Glenn fleshman heard me say that [TS]

  once and who disagreed vehemently but [TS]

  he's not here [TS]

  I i really liked the characters i [TS]

  thought i'm like Ren said the mother and [TS]

  the daughter which is clearly the focus [TS]

  they did the characters really well they [TS]

  made them they're they're animated [TS]

  cartoons characters right but they made [TS]

  them feel real and that relationship to [TS]

  the mom and the daughter felt like the [TS]

  kind of relationship on actual teenager [TS]

  might have with just larger consequences [TS]

  people being turned into bears and [TS]

  getting into battles and stuff but um I [TS]

  felt like a real relationship and I [TS]

  really like that um I thought that the [TS]

  sum of the supporting characters like [TS]

  the dad and stuff we're kind of you know [TS]

  goof balls which is sort of the Disney's [TS]

  side that broad but but you know it's a [TS]

  it's a movie about about the though the [TS]

  female relationships so you know you [TS]

  can't really feel bad about that fact [TS]

  somebody on Twitter set a couple weeks [TS]

  ago they said wait you're you're being [TS]

  reduced to caricatures i would not know [TS]

  how that feels [TS]

  it was a woman of course I uh I thought [TS]

  that was funny yeah but I'm overall I [TS]

  thought it was really it was really it [TS]

  was well done and it was it was I want [TS]

  to see I'm i like that it exists [TS]

  perhaps as much if not more than I liked [TS]

  itself that there's a Pixar movie with a [TS]

  with the female protagonist that's about [TS]

  a women relationships and that's good [TS]

  that's good and it's not just a dumb [TS]

  teenage love story thing right right [TS]

  Andy what about you what do you think my [TS]

  expectations were high those [TS]

  expectations were met [TS]

  I I would have a good friend who [TS]

  actually bout not this time i was [TS]

  thinkin bout not to see this movie but [TS]

  he was certainly didn't plan to see the [TS]

  movie only because he liked a lot of [TS]

  people he saw the trailers oh dear it's [TS]

  a princess being forced to marry and she [TS]

  repels and now she has to go through [TS]

  this whole little journey you know that [TS]

  but she's gonna have a singing talking [TS]

  hedgehog companion perilous journey of [TS]

  hers and that's then we've seen that [TS]

  from from disney God knows how many [TS]

  times his name is haggis by the way the [TS]

  singing talking Scottish Hedgehog is [TS]

  haggis spoiler alert i thank you g but [TS]

  that what it is is that that's how [TS]

  Disney would do that story and that's [TS]

  playing the game and easy level [TS]

  sorry is playing the game at expert [TS]

  level where you're hitting a controller [TS]

  but push the joystick up because okay [TS]

  well obviously the way for this [TS]

  character the situation await that [TS]

  control doesn't work because that's not [TS]

  easy level this is expert level we [TS]

  actually have to think we have to [TS]

  actually get through get through the [TS]

  actual conflict between these two [TS]

  characters the basis of how these two [TS]

  characters way to each other and what [TS]

  really struck me at the end the reason [TS]

  why i thought was so satisfying the [TS]

  reason why I really do categorize it as [TS]

  up among the best of what pixar offers [TS]

  is that there's a it made me it made me [TS]

  think about the early days of [TS]

  computer-generated imagery where the the [TS]

  odd thing about it is that the stuff [TS]

  that will be impossible to animate [TS]

  traditionally is easy easy as hell to [TS]

  animate in in computer graphics you want [TS]

  to do a glass fear if you want to do a [TS]

  character that that's covered in chrome [TS]

  those are dirt simple for computer to [TS]

  animate what's really difficult is [TS]

  something that simple animate like shit [TS]

  like a sheet of paper something like [TS]

  that and this is what that it [TS]

  this is sort of translates into the [TS]

  story of a brave we're at Pixar started [TS]

  off making huge huge huge impressions by [TS]

  doing things that are sort of impossible [TS]

  to do otherwise we're here is a story in [TS]

  which all the tall the child's toys come [TS]

  to life and their personalities and [TS]

  there's hold this whole backstory going [TS]

  on when you're not looking at your toys [TS]

  or another one where here is an entire [TS]

  world of bugs and here is a world that's [TS]

  the planet is covered with trash and has [TS]

  all these robots that have to do the [TS]

  work of human beings [TS]

  this is the first one in which these [TS]

  pics are was have what seems like it [TS]

  seems to be an unsurmountable challenge [TS]

  they have to do a very human story where [TS]

  it is [TS]

  they could have shot this live-action [TS]

  without much difficulty whatsoever they [TS]

  could have there's only really one [TS]

  fantasy element in this entire story and [TS]

  you do and it is that ok spoiler [TS]

  it's when a character gets to transform [TS]

  into a bear there and and I could I [TS]

  could just tell that yo this is the this [TS]

  whole thing got greenlit when like that [TS]

  if they put the top of the pitch [TS]

  we're here the characters ABC DNA [TS]

  and the Queen gets turned into a bear [TS]

  and suddenly like the pitch stops [TS]

  because all the animators the ring oh my [TS]

  god I'll be so funny [TS]

  okay first of all do a shot which like [TS]

  she has to eat okay then we'll do a shot [TS]

  like okay where you're going for with [TS]

  this movie just because you're thinking [TS]

  about how cool will be to animate that [TS]

  character at that point but you could be [TS]

  you could do that if you you can [TS]

  actually do away with that element [TS]

  completely and just create create a [TS]

  reason for which the Queen let's say the [TS]

  quit the the America gives her the cake [TS]

  that's the magic cake that's not a magic [TS]

  cake she just like used spoiled eggs [TS]

  when she baked it and so the Queen has [TS]

  absolutely horrible stomach cramps [TS]

  she is and she's completely indisposed [TS]

  for like this with us how this this [TS]

  negotiation has to happen you could [TS]

  really do the entire story almost [TS]

  exactly the same way from that point on [TS]

  we're because it's not about the magic [TS]

  and it's not about the animation that [TS]

  has to happen when you have a magical [TS]

  spell going on [TS]

  it really is about these characters [TS]

  interacting with each other and bouncing [TS]

  off of each other and there is no point [TS]

  at which Meredith sings a song about how [TS]

  horrible it is to be a princess you know [TS]

  there is no talking hedgehog they're the [TS]

  only thing that came up a little bit [TS]

  close to that is the is the the magic [TS]

  woman in the forest which was very [TS]

  Disney ask although they put their own [TS]

  little twist on it but when it comes [TS]

  down to is that this is probably the [TS]

  most human level story that has ever [TS]

  been done in computer animation they did [TS]

  something incredibly difficult by doing [TS]

  a story that could have been filmed live [TS]

  action with really really good actors [TS]

  but they had to do it all by hand [TS]

  through animation that's why i think [TS]

  it's above it's a real landmark thing [TS]

  for Pixar to have done [TS]

  yeah it looks every time they seem to [TS]

  want to challenge themselves technically [TS]

  and not only have lots and lots and lots [TS]

  of human characters which is always a [TS]

  challenge because you have you have to [TS]

  choose a caricature style essentially [TS]

  because you don't want to get caught me [TS]

  in the uncanny valley but I her hair her [TS]

  unruly red hair is that I feel like that [TS]

  i was thinkin on my bus ride home today [TS]

  about the how they always like [TS]

  technically challenged themselves [TS]

  good grief i was wondering how many guys [TS]

  like spent weeks coding new processes in [TS]

  the Pixar Animation computer system [TS]

  to do that hair and because he wrote [TS]

  their animation system ya hair without [TS]

  hair right i mean so that that's the [TS]

  thousands of hours of programming time [TS]

  for it for hair but it's a fantastic [TS]

  hair this is why the bonus DVD is the is [TS]

  the best investment in terms of [TS]

  enjoyment per dollar because you almost [TS]

  don't wanna watch the movie you want to [TS]

  just go right to the commentary track [TS]

  and that'sthat's we find out in toy [TS]

  story 3 that the biggest technical [TS]

  challenge the entire movie was finding [TS]

  out how to animate a trash bag [TS]

  ok that is literally true where you that [TS]

  this writer's throws up this lines okay [TS]

  the toys are put inside a trash bag and [TS]

  that was fast forward how difficult it's [TS]

  going to be too like animate the trash [TS]

  compactor i was going to be to animate [TS]

  this fire and meanwhile now like now [TS]

  that you have to put the production that [TS]

  nobody could figure out how to do the [TS]

  plastic of a trash bags would actually [TS]

  move the way that plastic moves and [TS]

  everybody's tearing their hair out [TS]

  psycho use stupid idiot [TS]

  you could've written anything else they [TS]

  could say because we are her bag [TS]

  ok how about putting in a chromebox [TS]

  we're really good at doing things are [TS]

  made out of chrome but this is what [TS]

  pixar does right i mean this is part of [TS]

  what separates it from other animation [TS]

  companies [TS]

  um I i read an article where they were [TS]

  talking about the interviewed archery [TS]

  and physics and researchers talking [TS]

  about how that the one scene where [TS]

  Meredith takes that archery shot in [TS]

  slow-motion how they got all the details [TS]

  exactly right on how the arrow bend and [TS]

  shakes during that during flight really [TS]

  does band around the boat like that [TS]

  yeah it's a lot of attention to detail [TS]

  you also get the sense that the pixar [TS]

  guys left I was like alright we're going [TS]

  to move out archery and it and bears and [TS]

  in Scotland we're gonna go to Scotland [TS]

  for a while and see some bears and learn [TS]

  how to shoot arrows and lots of things [TS]

  and then they apply it to do this i [TS]

  wanted to talk about for a moment [TS]

  somebody actually in the chatroom [TS]

  mentioned this and I i have the exact [TS]

  same plot which is one of the reasons [TS]

  that i think i was so delighted by the [TS]

  movie when i saw it was that that I [TS]

  hadn't read a lot about it and the [TS]

  trailer to me seemed to be a real act of [TS]

  misdirection [TS]

  the one seen that they kept showing over [TS]

  and over again which was Meredy shooting [TS]

  the her bow and arrow with you know to [TS]

  take better shots than that her three [TS]

  suitors and I feel like that was really [TS]

  picks are playing us that they were they [TS]

  were they were actually in the marketing [TS]

  even setting up an expectation for what [TS]

  this movie would be that you know that [TS]

  they didn't deliver that they didn't [TS]

  want to deliver that they delivered in [TS]

  the first 10 minutes and then swerved [TS]

  and when in a whole other direction and [TS]

  I loved that I loved going into that [TS]

  movie and really not knowing that uh you [TS]

  know that it was gonna be a story about [TS]

  a girl and her mother who had been [TS]

  transformed into a kind of wacky clumsy [TS]

  talking bear and I i love the fact that [TS]

  that it it legitimately took me by [TS]

  surprise and wasn't a movie that I was [TS]

  led to believe by the commercials in the [TS]

  trailer the whole movie kinda does that [TS]

  where it at every turn this story and [TS]

  not just the movies of it is the story [TS]

  is there's an event that's going to take [TS]

  place that you think will either [TS]

  heighten the tension or resolve some [TS]

  kind of conflict and it just doesn't [TS]

  like it with the ads you expected that [TS]

  archery contest to be something and she [TS]

  wins it and something dramatic happens [TS]

  and it's just like that's like the [TS]

  starting of the dialogue like it's [TS]

  barely even you know all the events that [TS]

  would be a big turning point a dramatic [TS]

  scene that has a dramatic changes just [TS]

  don't in the movie and it's like oh that [TS]

  the problem is still that didn't just [TS]

  win the archery thing but i still have [TS]

  the problem still exists we haven't [TS]

  solved the problem in it at every point [TS]

  everything that's supposed to be [TS]

  triumphant are transformative in a [TS]

  typical movie of this type is not [TS]

  transformer transformer it because all [TS]

  your same problems that were set up at [TS]

  the b-movie continue to exist they don't [TS]

  go away because the music swells and [TS]

  something interesting happens on screen [TS]

  and that's that's very I don't say [TS]

  unsettling but like it keeps you [TS]

  off-balance as a viewer up because you [TS]

  do expect certain terms of events to act [TS]

  a certain way in the movie they just [TS]

  don't let that's why I think different [TS]

  studios different writers have almost a [TS]

  credit score when it comes to well [TS]

  creating screenplays Pixar is really [TS]

  really good that way where you'll see [TS]

  the trailer and you think you can start [TS]

  it [TS]

  you can't help but be reminded of films [TS]

  that are sort of someone to this trailer [TS]

  but you know that well this is pics are [TS]

  so if they're going to give us something [TS]

  that looks like what we've seen before [TS]

  that's probably going to be misdirection [TS]

  to begin with although i will i will be [TS]

  contrary a little bit there [TS]

  uh I thought the second trailer for this [TS]

  movie gave away way too much because I [TS]

  knew exactly what the twist was going to [TS]

  be because they they have the in the end [TS]

  of the the three mute little brothers [TS]

  oh yeah and then you see a shot of three [TS]

  little bears like okay I bet [TS]

  oh and that's that's why the the shot of [TS]

  the Bears trying was trying to trying [TS]

  and failing to catch a salmon [TS]

  ok now I know what happens now the only [TS]

  question is does the entire family turn [TS]

  into bears or just a couple didn't read [TS]

  it didn't ruin for me but I i thought [TS]

  that was okay i think they want to be [TS]

  able to further it's difficult you have [TS]

  to show three little bears like a [TS]

  certain point the marketing people take [TS]

  over and listen we're showing throwing [TS]

  three little bears could be any kid [TS]

  that's gonna put into identify the three [TS]

  little bears yes Saul you kept telling [TS]

  me here at that bears a tested through [TS]

  the roof through thought roof week we [TS]

  wish we could sign all the details are [TS]

  being offered frozen licensing gotta put [TS]

  the bed without it the trailer is in the [TS]

  trailer noble argument next Pixar movie [TS]

  there's two it's there was no beers one [TS]

  well the country bears honey talk to [TS]

  their instruments rudimentary into [TS]

  spring the servants so another way that [TS]

  this movie took me by surprise which I [TS]

  liked was the the mother turns into a [TS]

  bear and I so as I'm watching that I'm [TS]

  thinking okay I know again I know where [TS]

  this is going which is that she's going [TS]

  to be turned into a bear and they're [TS]

  gonna chase after and that's going to be [TS]

  the the plotline and what I did not [TS]

  expect for whatever reason maybe I [TS]

  should have maybe this is my fault I [TS]

  didn't expect that she would be entirely [TS]

  herself and not transformed into an [TS]

  animal and that that we would end up [TS]

  with these really wacky and I thought [TS]

  really enjoyable scenes where where the [TS]

  mother is not realizing she's a bear and [TS]

  discovering she's a bear and being [TS]

  horrified that she's a bear and then [TS]

  married has to has to smuggle her out of [TS]

  the [TS]

  Castle and I thought that was all that [TS]

  was all charming and again not what I [TS]

  expected I expected it to be she's [TS]

  turned into a bear and she becomes an [TS]

  animal and runs off into the forest and [TS]

  then they have to find her and save her [TS]

  from being hunted [TS]

  I figured that would be the arc here but [TS]

  I didn't expect so much great interplay [TS]

  and really mother-daughter interplay [TS]

  between America and her mother turned [TS]

  into a giant bear with the Briton that [TS]

  was that was so bro it's how i love that [TS]

  so much that [TS]

  yes of course is gonna be the wacky [TS]

  seems I what I'm a bear all know I can't [TS]

  be all my beer holy cats I'm a bear that [TS]

  the end you get through that and [TS]

  instantly because it goes right just [TS]

  write down to as if like Mara [TS]

  accidentally like you know left her [TS]

  mom's hair and the curlers too long and [TS]

  her hair is like albarn scores and she [TS]

  has no hair left now to like look at [TS]

  what you did [TS]

  104 watches if you bought anything [TS]

  through Meredy these now look what now [TS]

  we're going to fix this now what is not [TS]

  my fault it's not my fault that said the [TS]

  knob on the dial should be set a little [TS]

  bit but it's not my fault well I don't [TS]

  care about your fault and we're going to [TS]

  do it the minute you have this argument [TS]

  between like a very like Angry [TS]

  twelve-year-old girl and the eight-foot [TS]

  bear who's wearing a tiara [TS]

  ya know it's a great image it's been hot [TS]

  I really like actually that it gets it [TS]

  gets married his mother to shut up even [TS]

  though she's interacting you know she's [TS]

  not necessarily for the first time and [TS]

  you notice she doesn't do a lot of [TS]

  physical interaction you see it a little [TS]

  bit when marriages young but as she gets [TS]

  older you don't you see the Queen become [TS]

  more and more reserved and she's very [TS]

  polite and she's you know she doesn't [TS]

  use her hands very much it's very you [TS]

  know talking and measured tones and as [TS]

  soon as she gets turned into a bear [TS]

  she has the same kind of boisterous [TS]

  energy that Mara does when there is [TS]

  moving around and marriages talking and [TS]

  things like that so it's in a weird way [TS]

  it's like they're put on the same level [TS]

  and she's I mean yeah you get her bring [TS]

  being brought into the forest and you [TS]

  get married and interacting with her in [TS]

  that way and like well look at where I [TS]

  hang out with them and spend my days mom [TS]

  but you I feel like for the first for [TS]

  the first time since Merida's little [TS]

  tiny kid the two of them connect in and [TS]

  did all the only thing they had to [TS]

  do was you know take her out of a gallon [TS]

  and turn into a nature of their into a [TS]

  bear [TS]

  although her mother's immediate response [TS]

  is that she's horrified that she's not [TS]

  ladylike enough as a bear which is hence [TS]

  the tiara and and other things that [TS]

  happened very early on in her mannerisms [TS]

  where she's trying to be dainty and [TS]

  realizing that it's completely [TS]

  impossible and that's great because [TS]

  isn't that kind of a parallel with with [TS]

  marisa who finds this idea that she's [TS]

  going to be this lady that her mother [TS]

  wants her to be completely impossible [TS]

  she just can't she can't even conceive [TS]

  of it there's no way she can do it so I [TS]

  I am I i do love that and then of course [TS]

  then threw her misfiring magic the the [TS]

  mother and the daughter actually get to [TS]

  spend time together out of this context [TS]

  that they're in which is the context of [TS]

  all of these other princess movies right [TS]

  of you know you have to you have to do [TS]

  this no I'm going to repel against that [TS]

  and they and they take it and they take [TS]

  it all the way out which is great they [TS]

  they they put him in the forest with you [TS]

  gotta eat it eat some fish and follow [TS]

  the will of the wisp of the one hard and [TS]

  fast thing that like other princess [TS]

  movies tend to do is the the the adults [TS]

  whoever they may be the adults in power [TS]

  who are telling the kids to do the [TS]

  things they don't want to do they have [TS]

  like two modes they have like Stern but [TS]

  being started out of love and concern [TS]

  mode and then at the end of the movie [TS]

  they have the slight softening with its [TS]

  alright you taught me kid i guess i was [TS]

  wrong after all some kind of softening [TS]

  in this that those modes don't exist in [TS]

  this movie because in the beginning we [TS]

  established the characters like this is [TS]

  a mother who loves her little daughter [TS]

  and then with that contrasted with now [TS]

  look how their relationship is has [TS]

  changed and cooled and strained a little [TS]

  bit as she enters adolescence and then [TS]

  they go off into when she's on she's a [TS]

  bear the it slips everything around and [TS]

  now you know now the mother needs help [TS]

  from the daughter and the daughter is [TS]

  forced to look at the mother not as the [TS]

  authority figures telling me to do [TS]

  something I don't want to do but as [TS]

  another vulnerable human being with her [TS]

  own problems and she's this slide thru [TS]

  the cause of like that that leveling the [TS]

  playing field of like oh now both the [TS]

  movie and the protagonist now recognize [TS]

  the adult authority figure as also a [TS]

  human being with problems and needs and [TS]

  motivations that never happens it's [TS]

  always like the wall because it's like [TS]

  that that the the dumb adults and the [TS]

  end [TS]

  the crazy kids in typical kids movie [TS]

  this completely levels that what i like [TS]

  about that's how it gets revealed to [TS]

  America but what I like about this movie [TS]

  too is that the the magic and the [TS]

  turning the mother into a bear that [TS]

  doesn't that makes me laugh every time [TS]

  she's a bear doesn't transform her [TS]

  attitude toward her daughter that [TS]

  there's a very very nice scene where you [TS]

  know Meredith cuts the tapestry right [TS]

  and and and her mother throws marriages [TS]

  bow and the fire and um what's wonderful [TS]

  is that her mother and you're thinking [TS]

  oh this is this awful woman she she [TS]

  doesn't understand her daughter and she [TS]

  says oh what if I done and she realizes [TS]

  just how terrible this action has been [TS]

  and that they've come this far and their [TS]

  relationship is so broken and I really [TS]

  appreciated that because it lets you see [TS]

  that she realizes what these issues are [TS]

  before she turns into the bear instead [TS]

  of it being well i got turned into a [TS]

  bear and it made me rethink a few things [TS]

  instead it's like she's already [TS]

  rethinking and realizing this is a [TS]

  problem with her relationship with her [TS]

  daughter and it just so happens because [TS]

  she gets turned into a bear and has to [TS]

  go to the forest that she can you know [TS]

  they learn to communicate even though [TS]

  she can't talk and it all works itself [TS]

  out but I think it's important that the [TS]

  mother realizes before there's any magic [TS]

  involved that they've got this is gone [TS]

  you know way too far and that she needs [TS]

  to do something [TS]

  yeah that not only value but again it's [TS]

  it's it's playing the game at expert [TS]

  level not only it instantly sort of [TS]

  movies there's also that the the final [TS]

  scenes which well you're you're right [TS]

  little girl like you think he was a [TS]

  little girl that can make her own [TS]

  decisions but you should forge your own [TS]

  path [TS]

  part of it is that America has to [TS]

  realize that oh actually mom had mom [TS]

  with mom but my mother was making really [TS]

  really good points here they would leave [TS]

  this she wasn't just sort of making me [TS]

  to something that I don't want to be [TS]

  it's actually really really essential [TS]

  for like the continued health of [TS]

  everybody who lives in this article in [TS]

  time right that we maintain the pace I [TS]

  didn't I was too frustrated to really [TS]

  listen to what she was saying was trying [TS]

  to teach with something really [TS]

  the important and ok let's let's find a [TS]

  way to solve that problem they get it [TS]

  gives the mother of the grown-ups credit [TS]

  for being intelligent human beings yeah [TS]

  and it's it's that sense compromise to [TS]

  where she's she's about she realizes [TS]

  what her mother's been trying to teach [TS]

  her in that scene with the the the the [TS]

  four tribes and in that meeting where [TS]

  things are about to come fall apart and [TS]

  at the same time she offers basically [TS]

  she's gonna go and do everything and [TS]

  offer her hand in marriage and her [TS]

  mother as a bear says no right that says [TS]

  says no no you don't need to do that so [TS]

  there's that compromise that happens in [TS]

  that moment while they're mining she's [TS]

  mine to her cause she's out there that [TS]

  was brilliant with Billy I i really [TS]

  wanted to like send twenty dollars to [TS]

  Pixar saying five of you get copies for [TS]

  dollar copies on me because you deserve [TS]

  it with it the the whole the whole point [TS]

  of her like giving that speech at least [TS]

  seventy-five percent of it is simply to [TS]

  distract everybody so that her mother [TS]

  bear could sneak upstairs with attack [TS]

  tapestry is so they can pick together [TS]

  but she was the queen squander this [TS]

  opportunity because she's so proud of [TS]

  her daughter and she's just transfixed [TS]

  and she's like almost welling up in [TS]

  tears at how wonderful and strong and [TS]

  intelligent a girl itchy that she's [TS]

  raised here and she's squander this [TS]

  opportunity because she just doesn't [TS]

  want to miss it and all goodness bestest [TS]

  it's not it's not as tear-jerking as you [TS]

  know this as a as a as Jesse being [TS]

  abandoned toy story 2 but it's up there [TS]

  you will get some way you're going what [TS]

  is handy [TS]

  that's about as tear-jerking as it gets [TS]

  that is that song that damn song the [TS]

  Sarah McLachlan song and toy story 2 [TS]

  love [TS]

  oh no we just call out the begin to cry [TS]

  now song just start crying [TS]

  go ahead all of you have kind of touched [TS]

  on something that struck me about the [TS]

  movie which is that there really are no [TS]

  bad characters in the movie in terms of [TS]

  you know evil there's course there's the [TS]

  Fallen prints and you know who is kind [TS]

  of touched on but he's really just the [TS]

  backstory he's not really a character in [TS]

  this in the movie every other character [TS]

  in the movie is pretty much a good [TS]

  person and that the movie is really [TS]

  about the relationships between good [TS]

  people that sometimes don't go well and [TS]

  and how you know how you can sometimes [TS]

  fix those but i just like the fact that [TS]

  you know I could take my kids the movie [TS]

  and [TS]

  there's a lot of violence in it which [TS]

  kind of freaked him out but everybody in [TS]

  the movie was actually a good you know [TS]

  at heart a good person [TS]

  yeah yeah i'm also by the way it for [TS]

  fans of baseball young McIntosh is Tim [TS]

  Lincecum not the voice the guy is [TS]

  totally San Francisco Giants long hair [TS]

  big chin [TS]

  totally yeah check it out I mean they [TS]

  had to put in their twenties to read [TS]

  when it's beautiful it's a thing of [TS]

  beauty [TS]

  surrender you've seen a lot of pixar [TS]

  movies did were you struck by the fact [TS]

  that this was either their attempt to [TS]

  finally tell a story with a with a [TS]

  female character as the protagonist [TS]

  after you know many many movies having [TS]

  not you know having not gone there or [TS]

  did it did it really not matter i are at [TS]

  least my opinion is always first and [TS]

  foremost to tell a good story turns sure [TS]

  I feel like it does not matter who the [TS]

  protagonist is as long as everyone in [TS]

  the film is flushed out and interesting [TS]

  i like seeing female protagonists [TS]

  because as a kid I know like it was very [TS]

  hard to grow up and have only role [TS]

  models like pink power ranger to be here [TS]

  you know oh yeah no I want to play [TS]

  Wolverine no you can't play Wolverine [TS]

  because you're a girl like that kind of [TS]

  thing is very disappointing for for a [TS]

  kid and so I appreciate it from that [TS]

  from that level i appreciate that little [TS]

  girls you know can go and be like yeah I [TS]

  want to learn archery I want to be you [TS]

  know an awesome princess who saves her [TS]

  mother and you know and and focuses in [TS]

  and is awesome [TS]

  I i really like that aspect of it I but [TS]

  i think on the whole I mean pixar pixar [TS]

  does well by its characters you know [TS]

  when it chooses to make archetypal [TS]

  characters it usually does it for a [TS]

  reason and they like to play off that [TS]

  like the triplets and brave [TS]

  I you get a good balance there between [TS]

  the archetypal roles that you might see [TS]

  in any other animation series and then [TS]

  the little twist the the pic sorry and [TS]

  flavor that they that they put to make [TS]

  the archetypes a little more interesting [TS]

  and [TS]

  memorable and funny in your eyes I so [TS]

  i'm very glad that pixar did a movie [TS]

  with female protagonist and i'm all for [TS]

  seeing more female protagonists in the [TS]

  future because I would love it if we [TS]

  could stop talking about [TS]

  oh isn't it novel that isn't that [TS]

  adorable that girl thinks he's a hero [TS]

  i'm glad they did that it's half the [TS]

  population and and one of 15 2015 12 [TS]

  pixar movies or 10 pixar movies or [TS]

  whatever it is so you know that that's [TS]

  sad that's really the the issue and of [TS]

  course the attitude in Hollywood against [TS]

  lots of evidence to the contrary that [TS]

  that a movies with female characters [TS]

  don't do as well and then there's the [TS]

  question of you know we'll kids with [TS]

  boys want to see a movie with a girl at [TS]

  the center of it and i can tell you that [TS]

  mean oh my son and I have a son and a [TS]

  daughter and my and they both really [TS]

  liked it and it didn't really matter [TS]

  that that.oh well it's a girl I don't [TS]

  care about her [TS]

  I mean they cared about her and she's [TS]

  the main character she's she's awesome [TS]

  and she's got this you know and her mom [TS]

  turns into a bear and how cool is that [TS]

  and it wasn't an issue with them i think [TS]

  it's more of an issue with the people [TS]

  who are worried about and are [TS]

  overthinking how it's going to play in [TS]

  the box office [TS]

  it's the marketers that are worried not [TS]

  the little kids the little kids just [TS]

  want a good story and fun characters [TS]

  exactly so so one of the things that [TS]

  we've touched on briefly is that there [TS]

  are there are many many other animated [TS]

  movies that are famous for having a [TS]

  female protagonist but that there are [TS]

  lots of issues with those and you know [TS]

  the obviously the Disney Princesses come [TS]

  to mind there are you know Disney [TS]

  animated movies mostly mostly are female [TS]

  characters at the center but they are [TS]

  generally even called and marketed as [TS]

  the disney princesses and they have lots [TS]

  of things in common involving no mother [TS]

  or dead mother or dead parents and and [TS]

  they usually have a well let's see i [TS]

  mean that they're all the different [TS]

  things that they need that they are in a [TS]

  situation they want to repel against [TS]

  there being a being a princess and and [TS]

  day my prince will come it right there [TS]

  either put into a into a relationship [TS]

  that they don't want with with somebody [TS]

  and they rebelled against it only to [TS]

  discover that the in this case the [TS]

  prince is nice or they from [TS]

  another boy who is also nice instead and [TS]

  you know you can trace the story arc of [TS]

  the disney princess and you know even in [TS]

  recent times when Disney has tried to [TS]

  make movies with non-white princesses [TS]

  that's their big step is that the that [TS]

  the race of the animated character that [TS]

  doesn't actually I guess have erased [TS]

  because it's animated is the big [TS]

  variation which is great on one level [TS]

  but it doesn't really change the story [TS]

  arcs which you know in Pocahontas or [TS]

  Milan or the princess and the frog you [TS]

  know the story arcs are still not that [TS]

  different even if the characters look a [TS]

  little bit different you know what I'd [TS]

  actually argue that Milan and specific [TS]

  reminded me of brave a lot and that [TS]

  movie sort of isolation area from the [TS]

  rest of the disney princess lot i takes [TS]

  on more of a i'm doing this you know [TS]

  because I want to help somebody or I [TS]

  want to you know go forward and make my [TS]

  own path and and it holds together [TS]

  towards the end of it like yes Mulan [TS]

  ends up meeting in you know eventually [TS]

  falling in love with one of the people [TS]

  that you know she's working together [TS]

  within her in her unit but you know she [TS]

  goes through the whole movie basically [TS]

  to to defend honor and yes she's [TS]

  defending her father's on RC could argue [TS]

  oh no that makes her a weak character [TS]

  but i think so does mother in Milan [TS]

  yeah exactly her reported mother know [TS]

  her mother's alive in that no okay [TS]

  her mother is alive I don't know how to [TS]

  actually send her father is we i think [TS]

  we see her [TS]

  we see her because she's come from panda [TS]

  just have a know there are many there [TS]

  are many don't but that's all the way [TS]

  but still you mentioned already when [TS]

  shang with the guys name sharing when he [TS]

  shows up at the end though it's like you [TS]

  think the movies over and she's [TS]

  triumphant and she succeeded and she has [TS]

  all these friends and she showed that [TS]

  she's resourceful and smart and then he [TS]

  shows up comes walking at the end is at [TS]

  that little girl you forgot your role in [TS]

  life is to is to get in a relationship [TS]

  with a man and here is so off you go [TS]

  that it's a kind of undercuts it where [TS]

  the whole movie was not about that and [TS]

  they had this little like not real [TS]

  relation [TS]

  what kind of like they flirting sexual [TS]

  tension thing which is fine but then at [TS]

  the end of the movie actor she's [TS]

  trapping he shows up going all shocks [TS]

  lady you know you're dropped your role [TS]

  in life is to come and be with me and [TS]

  she's like oh yes now but that's just [TS]

  her father is so proud that she's found [TS]

  a man to to find her desirable and they [TS]

  get paired off and I'm not it's not at [TS]

  this terrible the disney movies with the [TS]

  princess just gets in peril and the [TS]

  princess to come and save her with a [TS]

  kiss and bs like that but that it's [TS]

  that's the word that the worst thing [TS]

  about the disney princess movies is that [TS]

  all them revolve around the idea that [TS]

  finding a man is your purpose in life [TS]

  and they never explicitly say like and [TS]

  to have children or whatever it's like [TS]

  marriage that is the culmination of your [TS]

  existence and then I how the stories and [TS]

  there's going to be you and it's going [TS]

  to be a guy is gonna be handsome guy and [TS]

  it's gonna be nice and brave or whatever [TS]

  but your role as a princess is to pair [TS]

  up with that guy and that works is not [TS]

  evil or networks because little girls [TS]

  like to think about their prints coming [TS]

  and stuff like that and making you know [TS]

  the debate all the different reasons why [TS]

  that is so in nature versus nurture or [TS]

  whatever but that sameness and that sort [TS]

  of just over decades and decades of [TS]

  doing the princess movies it's it just [TS]

  gets tiring and it just it really [TS]

  reinforces the notion in females [TS]

  watching it like the path of your life [TS]

  no matter who you are what decade you [TS]

  live in what your race is what your [TS]

  classes what your status is what your [TS]

  skills are it's going to culminate in [TS]

  marriage and that's the end that's the [TS]

  end of the movie they never had the [TS]

  second movie we've been married for 20 [TS]

  years and you have the screaming kids or [TS]

  whatever that's a less popular animated [TS]

  form the screaming kids parents while [TS]

  incredible is this is an incredible [TS]

  right now and the incredibles does a [TS]

  good job of that [TS]

  yeah no yeah it does it does the [TS]

  incredibles well we could talk about the [TS]

  incredibles remember and maybe we're [TS]

  very long time yeah yeah maybe we should [TS]

  do a whole show about that I wanted to [TS]

  bring up something about going back to [TS]

  brave as I yes go again and again I I [TS]

  appreciate that they leave it out [TS]

  I leave out the the possibility for Mara [TS]

  to fall in love with one of the people [TS]

  that she eventually has to be betrothed [TS]

  to is still on the line but they're not [TS]

  resolving in this film you know she [TS]

  doesn't even have to think about it it's [TS]

  just know that is something to decide [TS]

  when I am [TS]

  older and it will be my own choice right [TS]

  I appreciate that the romance wasn't you [TS]

  know they didn't try and shoehorn a [TS]

  romance story into it [TS]

  yeah like that was the great things they [TS]

  they have three suitors and you're [TS]

  watching it if you're watching with the [TS]

  idea that stereotypes around like pi [TS]

  wonder which one of those three is going [TS]

  to turn out to actually be the cool one [TS]

  she finds none of them nope none of them [TS]

  out all you know a Qatari the shy open [TS]

  whether i was so put off by earlier [TS]

  I'm starting to realize that perhaps [TS]

  there's something in this person after [TS]

  all [TS]

  well yeah if it was a dreamworks movie [TS]

  the two of them would be going off with [TS]

  her mother the bear and finding [TS]

  something out about each other while [TS]

  they're babysitting her so john is a big [TS]

  fan as we've covered on a previous [TS]

  podcast of a of a miyazaki who is and [TS]

  people pics are huge fans I mean really [TS]

  if you look at the the big influences on [TS]

  the people pics are obviously disney and [TS]

  miyazaki I think would be two of the [TS]

  biggest if not the biggest and meanest [TS]

  Rockies movies are interesting because [TS]

  they quite frequently not always have [TS]

  female protagonist so John you know [TS]

  what's your take on on how brave handles [TS]

  handles merida and universes disney [TS]

  princesses and Miyazaki's characters us [TS]

  that thinking about ways to do a [TS]

  non-sexist I guess non stereotypical [TS]

  female characters because we all know [TS]

  what the stereotype is the outlines that [TS]

  very well how do you do a story with [TS]

  with with females female characters or [TS]

  female lead that doesn't fall into those [TS]

  traps and one way to do it is to do a [TS]

  story where gender doesn't matter [TS]

  and sometimes that the cheap way to do [TS]

  that is to write a story with a male [TS]

  lead that you think is going to be [TS]

  exciting and interesting that's not [TS]

  doesn't hammering on the mail stuff like [TS]

  it's not about I don't know tips [TS]

  specifically male things but just write [TS]

  a regular story with the male lead and [TS]

  just swap the gender and that's it so it [TS]

  was a prince you make a princess but [TS]

  just the stories exactly the same or if [TS]

  it's just it's just a person you just [TS]

  switch the gender right much harder is [TS]

  to write a story of a character living [TS]

  with all the usual impressions of [TS]

  females that we all know from the [TS]

  various cultures on earth there were you [TS]

  know in our societies [TS]

  have it be a female character had that [TS]

  character living in a world where all [TS]

  that stuff exists but don't have the [TS]

  movie about those forms of oppression [TS]

  everything just simply have the [TS]

  character not be limited by them and [TS]

  that's what miyazaki i think does so [TS]

  well with the female protagonist because [TS]

  they're in there in a world where their [TS]

  expectations of my outcome of kikis [TS]

  delivery services one of my favorite [TS]

  movies of all time I am meeting [TS]

  she's she's in a world where there are [TS]

  gender roles and expectations for [TS]

  females i love the fact that her friend [TS]

  in the town is a pregnant woman which is [TS]

  something that you know they wouldn't [TS]

  even show in live-action television for [TS]

  decades i probably can't show pregnancy [TS]

  right is an acknowledgement that like [TS]

  pregnancy is uniquely female your her [TS]

  role model when you know when she's away [TS]

  from her parents is this woman who is [TS]

  pregnant and they don't talk about it [TS]

  it's not a thing but it's their right [TS]

  and there is the expectations of romance [TS]

  and the boy who likes her and everything [TS]

  all the things that you are i set by and [TS]

  the the younger sort of teenage friend [TS]

  in the woods who sort of more [TS]

  self-actualized woman showing her all [TS]

  and she has the older woman which makes [TS]

  the pie for she's womanhood and all its [TS]

  different phases yeah and and all those [TS]

  people are you know you could say their [TS]

  stereotypes that they're in there in the [TS]

  typical stages of life we see a woman [TS]

  young kid teenager and older woman a [TS]

  pregnant woman and her childbearing [TS]

  years up but that's not the story is [TS]

  about and she is not limited by those [TS]

  things and it doesn't culminate in her [TS]

  getting married and the the relationship [TS]

  is the same way it is when you have a [TS]

  twelve-year-old like your life doesn't [TS]

  culminating you finally holding hands [TS]

  with that boy is just one of the things [TS]

  out here but that it's just I like the [TS]

  fact that acknowledges all that instead [TS]

  of simply saying uh it's an amazing [TS]

  prints hero but i doubt it she's got [TS]

  long hair and so she's a girl and so [TS]

  look at this is that we don't we don't [TS]

  fall into those gender stereotypes at [TS]

  all and that is very difficult to do I [TS]

  think I like that I like that in key the [TS]

  the boy is there like you said whoo-whoo [TS]

  he he kinda likes her and you know she's [TS]

  sort of too busy but he's a friend but [TS]

  it's just not the point right i mean [TS]

  it's there it's just not it's just [TS]

  another pointless and she is like [TS]

  slightly she's she likes the boy wants [TS]

  to have a relationship with a little bit [TS]

  feel self-doubt like [TS]

  the boy is used as a part as I think it [TS]

  is in real life where the kids that age [TS]

  are so self-absorbed that these [TS]

  relationships type things are really [TS]

  just ways for you to grow as a person [TS]

  and to figure out how all this stuff [TS]

  works and it's not so much about the [TS]

  other person so she she feels self-doubt [TS]

  and and the rich friends that he has and [TS]

  she's not comfortable that situation and [TS]

  she you know is depressed about it and [TS]

  just dump doesn't have anything to do [TS]

  with him and gets into self-loathing [TS]

  right but she doesn't want him to die by [TS]

  being dropped from a blimp yeah and like [TS]

  all of it is about how she grows and you [TS]

  kind of feel bad for Tom but because you [TS]

  know he's times he's you know he's in [TS]

  the picture and she has deep feelings [TS]

  surrounding him but she really feeling [TS]

  or tambo doesn't you know at that age [TS]

  it's really all about you yourself [TS]

  growing not so much about the other [TS]

  person I I think miyazaki does a it talk [TS]

  about expert levels like that the [TS]

  masterclass how to do on how to do [TS]

  female protagonists indeed in the most [TS]

  interesting way possible and I think [TS]

  miyazaki also to be fair for his entire [TS]

  work does all the other levels till he's [TS]

  got the stereotypical females who are [TS]

  like the princess you do nothing like an [TS]

  and castle in the sky you know [TS]

  oh yeah and he's got the like nas ago [TS]

  who is much more in the vein of what [TS]

  there's a little bit of gender roles [TS]

  there and how she's treated by the [TS]

  village but she's very much a similar to [TS]

  a prince here or you could swap her out [TS]

  with the with a male and half the movie [TS]

  works and the only one-half you need to [TS]

  change all of the key who I think is the [TS]

  complete you know that the best move you [TS]

  look for little girls ever seen in my [TS]

  entire life because it shows everything [TS]

  that you're going to be beset by and [TS]

  shows how you how that doesn't have to [TS]

  define your limit you in any way and how [TS]

  you can deal with it and overcome it and [TS]

  a movie like like totoro I mean the main [TS]

  characters are our little girls and [TS]

  there's a boy around two and you know it [TS]

  doesn't matter that they're just they [TS]

  happen to be girls and it's just not a [TS]

  big deal and they're not they're not [TS]

  princesses but they do have their [TS]

  magical you know adventure and it just [TS]

  doesn't matter and the act like little [TS]

  they actually leaving them on the Attic [TS]

  stereotypical little girls that's what [TS]

  about what's great about is you don't [TS]

  want to make the girls who like girly [TS]

  things feel like that is if I like girly [TS]

  things I'm somehow failure as a woman [TS]

  because I should be more manly and like [TS]

  manly [TS]

  things and be like the prince in this [TS]

  story like it's ok to do all the things [TS]

  that the girl stereotypically like but [TS]

  you don't you also don't have to accept [TS]

  the other oppressions that seem to come [TS]

  with gender roles in society so that the [TS]

  girls in miyazaki movies are girly much [TS]

  of the time but like that's okay they [TS]

  still are resourceful and heroic and [TS]

  have have feelings and you know [TS]

  relationships and stuff in ways that's [TS]

  interesting and not limiting and never [TS]

  never need to be saved by a man or need [TS]

  to get married at the end of the movie [TS]

  or anything like that [TS]

  can you tell we have daughters and Dan [TS]

  4x has his daughters to sew and i am [TS]

  currently writing down a list of [TS]

  miyazaki films that to put on my haha [TS]

  lucky if you haven't shown tricky and [TS]

  totoro to your your kids they're totally [TS]

  safe for little kids to and are our [TS]

  amazing amazing castle is pretty good [TS]

  too although it has some scary points [TS]

  yeah I didn't really like that one but [TS]

  but yeah I mean yeah start with Kiki [TS]

  totoro and go from there [TS]

  bonito is really weird to really weird [TS]

  but we did a whole podcast miyazaki i [TS]

  like most of the really really good [TS]

  storytellers out there [TS]

  his point is to tell a good fictional [TS]

  tale and you know pull people in and he [TS]

  just happens to use female protagonist [TS]

  to do that and do it well but it's not [TS]

  you know he doesn't go into it or at [TS]

  least it doesn't feel like to me he goes [TS]

  into it saying i need two female [TS]

  characters and one male character and i [TS]

  will balance this out you know his [TS]

  ratios are pretty even like in the [TS]

  movies even if it is a female lead this [TS]

  the expected number of males and females [TS]

  and also doing things that you would [TS]

  expect males and females to do it's not [TS]

  like one half of a lot of the movies [TS]

  they just cut out one half of the gender [TS]

  oh this is a girl's movie so we're going [TS]

  to show us the moms and the daughters [TS]

  and my dad will come in for two scenes [TS]

  they don't even exist in the reverse if [TS]

  it's an action movie you know the [TS]

  females are just there to be love [TS]

  interest in distress and everything else [TS]

  is about the guys fighting right it's [TS]

  like half of the world is invisible to [TS]

  you and they just decided to focus on [TS]

  better movies show males and females in [TS]

  the expected ratios doing the expected [TS]

  things and then [TS]

  no whoever your main character is fine [TS]

  but they inhabit a world that is [TS]

  balanced in that way and and fits with [TS]

  whatever time it's done if it's if it's [TS]

  a Victorian thing and women are like [TS]

  even more massively depressed than now [TS]

  that's what they show you know you don't [TS]

  don't make it look like that's not the [TS]

  case and say well I want I want to have [TS]

  a strong female character so i'm going [TS]

  to pretend that you know the female [TS]

  there's a female president and you know [TS]

  1886 or something is well but you can [TS]

  still write a female a strong female [TS]

  character and 1886 you just have to take [TS]

  a different tack from it [TS]

  yeah because the world she's in is very [TS]

  is different like you can't you you can [TS]

  have the characters change but you can't [TS]

  change the environment like when you're [TS]

  making completely fictional environment [TS]

  you can choose what it's like obviously [TS]

  whatever century and Scotland that you [TS]

  have you have certain expectations that [TS]

  you have to deal with but if you're [TS]

  completely making a fictional more like [TS]

  a nozzle you can make that b2b however [TS]

  you want and that can be an interesting [TS]

  way to defy expectations or say that you [TS]

  know even thousands of years in the [TS]

  future [TS]

  we've reverted to monarchy and typical [TS]

  gender roles but that still doesn't [TS]

  limit this one princess for you know [TS]

  she's very very unlike princess you [TS]

  would expect [TS]

  absolutely so I can't go past through [TS]

  this podcast without bringing up legend [TS]

  of korra which aired recently and is a [TS]

  animated show on Nickelodeon that is the [TS]

  sequel to a it's an anime show but it's [TS]

  an American anime show or American [TS]

  written and designed anime show that's [TS]

  produced in south korea but shown on an [TS]

  American work it's very it's a little [TS]

  roundabout but um avatar the original [TS]

  series ran for I think 40 episodes was [TS]

  fantastic and had some great female [TS]

  characters and why didn't my yeah [TS]

  there's there's a great female character [TS]

  a couple of great female characters in [TS]

  the original avatar and now the sequel [TS]

  which started airing this year legend of [TS]

  korra has a female protagonist who [TS]

  besides being an excellently written [TS]

  character I one of the things that [TS]

  people keep calling out and really that [TS]

  comes to mind when i watch it is you [TS]

  never hear supporting characters in that [TS]

  show describing Korra as oh you're so [TS]

  pretty i want to [TS]

  no hang out with you it's always wow [TS]

  you're an amazing bender [TS]

  wow you do all these cool things wow [TS]

  you're so strong and she's not drawn [TS]

  like if you traditional feel what you [TS]

  would think of a traditional female [TS]

  protagonist where she's basically a [TS]

  powerful character in this world and can [TS]

  do magic type things that they call [TS]

  bending in the universe and she's drawn [TS]

  buff she's drawn like she's been lifting [TS]

  weights since she was four and they [TS]

  comment on that always in a positive [TS]

  aspect which I find really really [TS]

  fantastic my son was angry for halloween [TS]

  Lester yes I that's that's a great a [TS]

  really really great show i watched it on [TS]

  the original avatar when I was sick a [TS]

  couple years ago when absolutely fell in [TS]

  love with it like it is a kids show and [TS]

  it is kids friendly but it is written [TS]

  with such care to the universe and [TS]

  towards the characters that it's [TS]

  absolutely like I i put it up there is [TS]

  like a really fantastic television show [TS]

  de to go and watch it introduced my kids [TS]

  to the idea of serialize storytelling to [TS]

  that it's the story isn't over that what [TS]

  there is in the next episode the story [TS]

  continues what would it would it would a [TS]

  second i wanna know what happened that's [TS]

  a cliffhanger son that's called a [TS]

  cliffhanger get used to integrating [TS]

  early it's got to be done [TS]

  it's got to be done so at but I I random [TS]

  with you with you about something you [TS]

  said earlier which is it would be nice [TS]

  if we couldn't you we just didn't have [TS]

  to talk about this but you know the fact [TS]

  remains that it this is an ongoing issue [TS]

  that it you know in popular [TS]

  entertainment and as somebody who is a [TS]

  up a parent of a of a daughter i I've [TS]

  noticed it even more now than I did [TS]

  before that I you know there's a lot of [TS]

  popular entertainment out there that it [TS]

  really seems to be that that it's got to [TS]

  be about it's gonna be about male [TS]

  characters because women will go see [TS]

  movies about with male characters in the [TS]

  lead but then we'll go see movies with [TS]

  women in the lead which i think you know [TS]

  keeps being proven isn't true but it [TS]

  still happens and in [TS]

  the kind of stuff that we like to talk [TS]

  about on this podcast that's often the [TS]

  case to right i mean there are there are [TS]

  lots of great example to the contrary [TS]

  which i think would you would think [TS]

  would prove that that it shouldn't be [TS]

  the case and yet nobody seems to pick up [TS]

  on and he mentioned before we started [TS]

  the fact that a alien and aliens that [TS]

  are carried by i'm incredibly strong [TS]

  woman character and that's an action [TS]

  franchise and yet everybody seems [TS]

  reluctant to and are supposedly making [TS]

  huge risks taking these risks by having [TS]

  women characters leading movies which [TS]

  seems insane to me [TS]

  the problem here is that when you write [TS]

  a really good female protagonist and you [TS]

  tell a story that happens to have a [TS]

  really good female protagonist then it's [TS]

  looked at by the general public as a [TS]

  good story and the only people who are [TS]

  highlighting it as hey look it's it's [TS]

  such a cool female protagonist you [TS]

  should go look at that are generally [TS]

  women because it's like oh hey look [TS]

  finally a character that looks like us [TS]

  and you know acts that that's that's [TS]

  fantastic [TS]

  I nice to finally see that but the rest [TS]

  of the world doesn't really see oh this [TS]

  is a movie about a woman there just oh [TS]

  this is a really good story and this [TS]

  badass you know woman happens to be [TS]

  fighting off aliens you know you don't [TS]

  you don't rest [TS]

  you don't necessarily say just like you [TS]

  don't necessarily say this is a film [TS]

  with a male protagonist unless you are [TS]

  in the you know film discussion you're [TS]

  looking for good stories and bad stories [TS]

  but yes female protagonists are so few [TS]

  and far between because marketing [TS]

  executives and you know the people [TS]

  green-lighting these stories and people [TS]

  writing these stories to put money you [TS]

  know food on their table and money in [TS]

  their bank accounts you know they write [TS]

  what sells and unfortunately even [TS]

  recently what sells either strong male [TS]

  protagonists because that's the way it's [TS]

  been since time immemorial or female [TS]

  protagonists but the way we know that [TS]

  they're you know good-hearted and [TS]

  important is that all the other male [TS]

  protagonist are all the other male [TS]

  characters are like oh you're so pretty [TS]

  oh your prince [TS]

  yes oh that's why I care about you of [TS]

  course yeah you know that you talked [TS]

  about like how it would be nice if we [TS]

  didn't have to [TS]

  I if it wasn't such a big deal that was [TS]

  female protagonist but it's the cause [TS]

  and effect i think it is as always been [TS]

  the other way is that there is [TS]

  inequality in society and the art [TS]

  reflects that that's just simply the way [TS]

  it is and the reason it's an issue is [TS]

  not because of the imbalance in movies [TS]

  the imbalance and movies exists because [TS]

  of the imbalances in society until and [TS]

  those imbalances have been getting [TS]

  better over time on the long graph but [TS]

  they're still there and who knows how [TS]

  long it'll be until they're entirely gun [TS]

  I the art and the people who consume the [TS]

  art reflect that because those those [TS]

  inequalities existing society because [TS]

  that's prevailing opinion in society and [TS]

  if most people think that way for good [TS]

  or for ill they seek out entertainment [TS]

  that you know matches their [TS]

  preconceptions and so then it is a story [TS]

  when something goes against the the [TS]

  expectations and the fact is that the [TS]

  expectations are still skewed like [TS]

  intellectually we can all say we we know [TS]

  that things should not be this way but [TS]

  the reality is you know I even in the [TS]

  most modern society's gender roles and [TS]

  oppression of women still exists for the [TS]

  same crazy reasons they've existed for [TS]

  you know for millennia and I i think you [TS]

  know like changing the movies is not [TS]

  going to change that part is going to [TS]

  come in the other direction like as it [TS]

  becomes as certain things become beyond [TS]

  the pale and real society then those [TS]

  things aren't shown in movies anymore [TS]

  and that that's the way movies will [TS]

  change if you want it to ever be the [TS]

  point where is not a big deal to have a [TS]

  female protagonist artist can make that [TS]

  happen they can help they can help by [TS]

  having great movies but what they're [TS]

  helping by as influencing society then [TS]

  we'll feed back into the art so it's [TS]

  kind of I sometimes I feel like the the [TS]

  artist get a bad rap for for that or it [TS]

  seems like things are the way they are [TS]

  because the artist being made that way [TS]

  when I think it's definitely very [TS]

  heavily the other direction society [TS]

  produces the art I don't believe the [TS]

  article in the studio i believe the [TS]

  money people for being you're being [TS]

  cowards and so yeah [TS]

  cowards and so yeah [TS]

  and for m4 you know being well I mean [TS]

  cowards but superstitious to the the [TS]

  idea that I'd say that there's lots of [TS]

  evidence that it's not true and yet they [TS]

  keep doing it which makes me wonder if [TS]

  our the being truly superstitious [TS]

  cowards or they just saying you know [TS]

  it's easier to be to to be sexist if [TS]

  it's not worry about it [TS]

  the idvr I don't think it's the artist [TS]

  if they do make a movie that I mean you [TS]

  can go against the expectations and [TS]

  stereotypes that exist in society with [TS]

  certain degree but once you cross a [TS]

  certain line then the story becomes 0 an [TS]

  action movie with a female John McClane [TS]

  are we right like that's the stupid [TS]

  evening news story like once you cross [TS]

  that line that becomes the story and [TS]

  that's what these executives are on fear [TS]

  of that their movie crosses over in a [TS]

  bad way into people aren't talking about [TS]

  my movie anymore they're talking about [TS]

  the fact that my movie is it really goes [TS]

  against what they expect from whatever [TS]

  you know [TS]

  yeah right you have the expected gender [TS]

  roles and it's it's kind of amazing to [TS]

  me that you know and dimension aliens [TS]

  earlier that that totally has not [TS]

  happened with alien or aliens aliens [TS]

  didn't have but i think because people [TS]

  were accustomed to horror movies having [TS]

  female leads because they're supposed to [TS]

  be in peril and they just stuck with a [TS]

  sneaky one by their own she's not really [TS]

  quite in parallel and she kind of is but [TS]

  she's the one alive at the end right and [TS]

  then aliens if you ask a guy about that [TS]

  movie like oh yeah a Space Ranger [TS]

  shooting areas like you do realize that [TS]

  the main character member with a female [TS]

  and she was the one who fights the big [TS]

  giant alien in the end in the you know [TS]

  with say it saves the girl and has the [TS]

  big gun and you know it just kind of [TS]

  like I don't care man it was awesome [TS]

  like nobody cares and like that movie [TS]

  didn't get be the blowback but if you [TS]

  tried to do basically like a movie that [TS]

  was like die hard but you had a female [TS]

  lead that would become the story and [TS]

  that can be good for the studio but can [TS]

  also be bad and that's why they freaked [TS]

  out about somebody the chairman [TS]

  mentioned salt earlier I mean that's [TS]

  actually a movie that's a little bit [TS]

  like diehard cross with no way out and [TS]

  that's a angelina jolie and you're gonna [TS]

  pick your battery type define woman [TS]

  maybe don't take Anjali Anjali that's [TS]

  almost exactly the right but the case to [TS]

  make though that the way that movies get [TS]

  made it's not about some screenwriter [TS]

  who has an idea for one would be great [TS]

  if we had a great have an action movie [TS]

  without great female female hero the [TS]

  center center of it [TS]

  it all comes down to the same 20 a list [TS]

  Drew's mattresses who can open a movie [TS]

  meaning that if their names associated [TS]

  with the project the money is gonna get [TS]

  going to materialize they only like to [TS]

  work with and a short list of a-list [TS]

  directors so really comes down to [TS]

  someone like Angelina Jolie saying i [TS]

  want to make an action movie I want to [TS]

  make a really great possibly franchise [TS]

  launchings action series with a female [TS]

  character it happens almost immediately [TS]

  when again the a-list actress hooks up [TS]

  with the a-list director and make it [TS]

  happen unfortunately we get when you [TS]

  don't need when you have a lack of [TS]

  either one of those things you're trying [TS]

  to raise a hundred million dollars on a [TS]

  movie that doesn't have a guaranteed [TS]

  return of investment at the end of the [TS]

  end of that guarantees of that are [TS]

  non-existent in the movie industry but [TS]

  in terms of what will attract investment [TS]

  it's really do need those to a list [TS]

  names to make it happen so it's I think [TS]

  it's less ok so is the audience ready [TS]

  for it as much as it is a case of how [TS]

  rare is it that you get a lot of an [TS]

  actress actually reaches that level in [TS]

  which they can actually command that [TS]

  movie be made it happens so rarely and [TS]

  when that happens i don't i'm not sure [TS]

  that most of these actresses are [TS]

  interested in making those kind of [TS]

  movies will start to turn are really [TS]

  quickly once we have more angelina [TS]

  jolie's out there is the Meryl Streep [TS]

  action movie [TS]

  I demand it okay well first of all she [TS]

  really kicked butt on that white water [TS]

  rafting movie i met that is that is an [TS]

  indication towards her versatility [TS]

  mortal to the market or anything like [TS]

  that anything like that but it's still a [TS]

  data point that like rendered into the [TS]

  Russians could really wield a knife in [TS]

  julie and julia so you go if you're in [TS]

  an onion stay the hell away from Meryl [TS]

  Streep because you're i'm here to chop [TS]

  onions and chaos upon you that there's [TS]

  that scene in The Iron Lady where she [TS]

  threatens to stab ronald reagan so that [TS]

  i don't know the old the lead point that [TS]

  I wanted the that I want to make on top [TS]

  of we're also has been said is that [TS]

  there's also a responsibility to if [TS]

  you're going to do with female action [TS]

  hero at a female action character like [TS]

  this you really have to give that [TS]

  character the same level of respect that [TS]

  you would get [TS]

  move to a male action action hero and [TS]

  this is one that came up were talking [TS]

  about the avengers movie where the [TS]

  reasons why Ellen Ripley is such a great [TS]

  characters because she is imperfect [TS]

  she's not a super woman she you know if [TS]

  you hit her she bleeds and she stumbles [TS]

  and she gets scared and she there's no [TS]

  way in hell that she's gonna go back to [TS]

  that planet and festive aliens cause she [TS]

  barely got a lot out why the first time [TS]

  Indiana Jones has exactly the same [TS]

  reason the same kind of character the [TS]

  qualities she did he doesn't go into a [TS]

  situation being the absolute Lord master [TS]

  of all time space knowledge in reality [TS]

  he goes and he makes up the plan as he [TS]

  goes along he gets punched a lot he [TS]

  bleeds a lot [TS]

  he get comes he comes through in the end [TS]

  but not after having proven that he [TS]

  really does have a lot of sangria and [TS]

  metal about him [TS]

  the problem that I've seen with a lot of [TS]

  times especially when there's like a [TS]

  large cast characters is that I think [TS]

  the producers the writers are terrified [TS]

  of having a fear of being accused of [TS]

  saying all course of course sick and [TS]

  have this kind of female character who [TS]

  did it wasn't picking up taking hostages [TS]

  some Pointer has this has to be helped [TS]

  by somebody well let's have that so [TS]

  that's what proves that a hero is a hero [TS]

  the fact that they are knocked down but [TS]

  then they get back up again and this is [TS]

  the reason why i didn't like black widow [TS]

  the avengers because it was exactly that [TS]

  problem where she's never asked there's [TS]

  never a situation which it is not in [TS]

  complete command of the situation she [TS]

  never gets heard she never knows Jesus [TS]

  do that right a loss for exactly what to [TS]

  do that makes her boring character we [TS]

  need more Ellen Ripley zup she feels [TS]

  like a token to me that's my problem [TS]

  with that too it's like well we need a [TS]

  female character so we'll insert one and [TS]

  she's not that important but will insert [TS]

  it but we're not here to talk about the [TS]

  avengers 2 good that you're right you're [TS]

  right i could like I conclusively proved [TS]

  the point about that movie when I spoke [TS]

  better with its Abbi this is your fourth [TS]

  podcast about the event i'll just make [TS]

  people sad by talking about it again [TS]

  because they don't have to admit how [TS]

  right I am I was bad girl in the dark [TS]

  knight series by the way John in your [TS]

  hypercritical podcast about pixar more [TS]

  than are uncomfortable podcast about it [TS]

  you talked about pixar taking risks and [TS]

  where could how could pixar push [TS]

  themselves more and the very nice BDSM [TS]

  in the [TS]

  room has asked me to ask you does brave [TS]

  fulfill your wish of pics are pushing [TS]

  itself and taking a big risk with a [TS]

  movie and getting out of its comfort [TS]

  zone I lesson that episode that the [TS]

  kinds of risks that I was suggesting [TS]

  because I didn't want to give some kind [TS]

  of examples were much more ambitious and [TS]

  mainly I focus on things like what is [TS]

  pixar at that point pics are done you [TS]

  know hit movie after movie I don't think [TS]

  our students even out yet at least I [TS]

  haven't seen it and they had the string [TS]

  of successes and it was clear what they [TS]

  could do they could make a great [TS]

  family-friendly heartwarming engaging [TS]

  movie that's appropriate for children [TS]

  but they're also was entertaining to [TS]

  adults and they just did that so well [TS]

  right and not i'm not saying that's [TS]

  easier anything but but what I wanted to [TS]

  see them challenge themselves on is ken [TS]

  pixar move out of that comfort zone [TS]

  because I felt like there was a risk of [TS]

  them sort of going into a rut and kind [TS]

  of making the same over and over again [TS]

  but my suggestion for like make a rated [TS]

  r movie make a movie with intentionally [TS]

  photorealistic humans doing things you [TS]

  see someone doing an HBO show or make a [TS]

  movie with no living things and just [TS]

  entirely robots early you know like [TS]

  really like adult entertainment adults [TS]

  only entertainment really pushing the [TS]

  boundaries of what's possible with [TS]

  animation so I was expecting you know I [TS]

  I was suggesting do something super [TS]

  ambitious and that was kind of in the [TS]

  service of that sort of hyperbole was in [TS]

  the service of the idea that I was [TS]

  challenging pixar to say that you're all [TS]

  big miyazaki fans and Miyazaki's had [TS]

  some stinkers and some weird movies but [TS]

  I think Miyazaki's highs are greater [TS]

  than pixar size because pixar was kind [TS]

  of falling into a comfort zone and not [TS]

  didn't seem well it was a picture would [TS]

  make great movies but was never going to [TS]

  make a transcendent movie unless it was [TS]

  willing to make stickers and so I wanted [TS]

  to see it take risks and fail and and [TS]

  when they make cars 2 and people didn't [TS]

  like people so is that what you wanted [TS]

  not really because cars to didn't fail [TS]

  because it was such a radical risk cars [TS]

  to was right down the middle and it [TS]

  wasn't a bad movie just wasn't as [TS]

  amazing as the other ones but it didn't [TS]

  fail because they took a crazy risk cars [TS]

  2 is not any movie with the two and the [TS]

  title is not a crazy risk right so brave [TS]

  is moving in the right direction because [TS]

  if they're gonna get them out of their [TS]

  comfort zone clearly the comfort zone is [TS]

  because his movies with male [TS]

  protagonists right [TS]

  I guess Wally's a male and as far as [TS]

  robots can be anyway and so this is [TS]

  moving in the right direction but it's [TS]

  still very far from let's take a crazy [TS]

  risk let's make movies for it maybe it [TS]

  maybe something I never want to do maybe [TS]

  that's not the company they are i'm not [TS]

  saying you have to make rated R movies [TS]

  are your failure or something like that [TS]

  it's just like I want biggest miyazaki [TS]

  doesn't make you know where many movies [TS]

  for Delta grave of the fireflies which [TS]

  is now involved in is arguably only in [TS]

  tulsa movie really but you know baby [TS]

  steps you're brave [TS]

  let's take them out of the comfort zone [TS]

  a little bit challenged them to do [TS]

  something they haven't done before and [TS]

  make a different kind of movie and I [TS]

  think in my thinking back on pixar [TS]

  movies brave stands apart and not not [TS]

  because of the female protagonist which [TS]

  is it just feels different to me then [TS]

  there are other movies is it feel that [TS]

  way to you it feels not like less of a [TS]

  kids movie but it feels different [TS]

  like in my mind the shape of it and had [TS]

  nothing to do with the lead just the [TS]

  shape of the story [TS]

  well it is a fairy tale in the true [TS]

  sense of the word [TS]

  yeah we're not gonna rely on fantastic [TS]

  scenes and incredible special effects it [TS]

  really is going to be about these very [TS]

  very real human characters even when the [TS]

  humans are not looking very human during [TS]

  the third movie and there's those those [TS]

  magical elements are there but it's like [TS]

  the weird that they're there so tamped [TS]

  down like they felt the need to have [TS]

  animal transformation which some nights [TS]

  and castles and stuff it is an animated [TS]

  movie and I I really do believe that [TS]

  every hand in that picture went up and [TS]

  say can we do what would she like to get [TS]

  she gets her head stuck in a jar and [TS]

  then she has to pull the jar off and [TS]

  then she gets the jar off her head [TS]

  there's like lemons all over her face at [TS]

  the time i'm sure that the as much as [TS]

  much as I said that maybe just maybe [TS]

  they could have done a different version [TS]

  of this in which the between just like [TS]

  eat some bad dates or something you know [TS]

  it's much funnier to have returned much [TS]

  more funny much more visual to have [TS]

  turned into a giant pair i also wonder [TS]

  if the I mean some of this is pics are [TS]

  pushing itself and some of this is the [TS]

  state of of the animation and computer [TS]

  animation being what it is now that you [TS]

  know then it used to be the pixar was [TS]

  way out ahead of everybody and [TS]

  not saying that you know the disney [TS]

  internal animation studio or DreamWorks [TS]

  or anybody else out there has surpassed [TS]

  them not even close but I feel like it's [TS]

  more of a it's more of a they've [TS]

  established this field and it is [TS]

  established and there are lots of [TS]

  competitors out there working at a much [TS]

  higher levels than they used to and I [TS]

  wonder if that pushes picture to [TS]

  differentiate themselves a little bit [TS]

  more because they've kind of written a [TS]

  playbook already and everybody else is [TS]

  using it and they need to do some [TS]

  different things to be different i also [TS]

  wonder if it changed my expectations of [TS]

  their movies because they're no longer [TS]

  the only ones out there operating on [TS]

  this level and it's them or nothing that [TS]

  there's other the competition is greater [TS]

  i guess and i wonder what that does to [TS]

  their to their creative process I've [TS]

  actually developed a pretty good respect [TS]

  for some dreamworks movies at the shrek [TS]

  movies are pretty much okay given [TS]

  community that's that's exactly [TS]

  everybody well said but it's my legacy [TS]

  yeah but you know I i have HBO and then [TS]

  so that's how i got that's how IC just [TS]

  saw despicable me for the first time [TS]

  could actually very that's a very good [TS]

  news is good [TS]

  how to train your dragon also very good [TS]

  moving mine and I'm gonna rant about [TS]

  megamind it's great [TS]

  yep i love these little movies I like [TS]

  and I think one of the reasons why movie [TS]

  especially like this pickle may work so [TS]

  well is that it's distinguished from a [TS]

  Pixar movie you through you feel it [TS]

  Pixar movies are great because they do [TS]

  think about every single element and how [TS]

  it locks into everything else and they [TS]

  just hammer at that script in that story [TS]

  until beat for beat for beat there is [TS]

  with rare exceptions not a single wasted [TS]

  moment not a single wasted page in that [TS]

  screenplay but you do see like how badly [TS]

  did you do see how much work went into [TS]

  it with a movie like despicable me feel [TS]

  as though they get it they give they [TS]

  found the studio in in France they said [TS]

  here's the DreamWorks logo [TS]

  here's a hundred thirty million dollars [TS]

  come back with a movie into here's the [TS]

  property come back to the movie and six [TS]

  months because the minions are equal [TS]

  just as funny as the funniest thing [TS]

  that's ever been in a Pixar movie [TS]

  yeah no other there the equivalent of [TS]

  the little aliens and toy story the [TS]

  upcoming movie wreck-it Ralph I think [TS]

  that's [TS]

  from disney proper not be as our that [TS]

  that looks like something my tactic my [TS]

  expect pics started it does [TS]

  behind-the-scenes video games feels like [TS]

  a movie that escaped from Pixar and went [TS]

  to decide I I don't know because I see I [TS]

  I worry from the trip was just from the [TS]

  trailer that so much of this is just [TS]

  people and they're likely twenties early [TS]

  thirties and forties like whoa Qbert we [TS]

  can have Cuban ok there's a great scene [TS]

  zaxxon I will fight to the death to put [TS]

  Zacks on this team and it I I just what [TS]

  I i really want to see it like opening [TS]

  week just to hear like the noisiest [TS]

  theater ever of like all these like 30 [TS]

  and four-year-olds that cooks other kids [TS]

  ok the first of all the reason why he's [TS]

  holding that cherry use game called [TS]

  pacman my I guess I'm not pacman but [TS]

  they don't get the q / thing and all and [TS]

  that makes me wonder I with you I do [TS]

  wonder if it's gonna be like ready [TS]

  player one and be yeah I just horribly [TS]

  pandering to people like me but again I [TS]

  I don't mind being pandered to every now [TS]

  and then [TS]

  well the question is whether or not they [TS]

  can still tell the story while working [TS]

  in all these references like if you come [TS]

  to it as a seven or eight year old kid [TS]

  which they are presumably expecting kids [TS]

  to do will you be able to understand it [TS]

  right I'll let my kids thought the [TS]

  trailer was cool [TS]

  they thought it looked cool they thought [TS]

  it was funny that they know that there [TS]

  are different kinds of video games even [TS]

  if they don't know a lot of the details [TS]

  that truth in the fact that you've got [TS]

  your that mean they have a wii and they [TS]

  have and they have a an iphone and [TS]

  you're an ipod touch and ipad and and if [TS]

  they've seen these different games in [TS]

  these different levels you know of [TS]

  quality and so they kind of get like oh [TS]

  that's like a fighting game and now you [TS]

  know this is this is like a mario game [TS]

  and no there's a pacman thing and [TS]

  they've actually you know so it may work [TS]

  on on that level 2 but it does it did [TS]

  say that vibe but the kind of pics are [TS]

  but we're going to take all this stuff [TS]

  and I'm looking forward to that movie a [TS]

  lot i'm very excited about that but [TS]

  let's think of it this way in terms of [TS]

  pandering and like that the fear because [TS]

  we've always seen the trailer right so [TS]

  we don't know it's gonna be like toy [TS]

  story was a hundred percent [TS]

  hey kids of baby boomers or similar age [TS]

  or baby will result remember the toys [TS]

  that you play with the kids remember [TS]

  army men remember like never like [TS]

  they're always exactly it was and you [TS]

  could say all that toy story movies just [TS]

  going to be at first of all blatant a [TS]

  play to try to sell toys in the actual [TS]

  store which it did tons of and second of [TS]

  all it's just gonna be a bunch of people [TS]

  going i had the barrel of monkeys oh and [TS]

  just get show you know I but on top of [TS]

  that toy store was also a good movie so [TS]

  I run record Ralph like we have a [TS]

  prototype for a movie that just totally [TS]

  appears to be pandering and pop-culture [TS]

  references and it can also be a good [TS]

  movie so I think that's what we're all [TS]

  hoping for wreck-it Ralph but from the [TS]

  trailer is just too hard to tell and i [TS]

  don't i don't have any I don't know [TS]

  who's on that project and all I know [TS]

  it's like it's disney animation i could [TS]

  tangled was tangled dreams works for [TS]

  disney animation was that list is nice [TS]

  to have this yes i love this some [TS]

  predatory 44 like what what does disney [TS]

  do outside of pixar with computer [TS]

  animation i think how to train your [TS]

  dragon is the best my understanding is [TS]

  the disney animation now is essentially [TS]

  pixar 2 which is not to say that they [TS]

  duplicated the culture but that it's [TS]

  like they that Lassiter and cattle have [TS]

  kind of put in place the same structures [TS]

  of like creative structures and [TS]

  processes that they did at Pixar accept [TS]

  this is in la at Disney and they're not [TS]

  and the rule i saw some interview with [TS]

  them where they said the one rule is [TS]

  that the people on the in one place [TS]

  don't get to go help the people in the [TS]

  other and rescue them that they have to [TS]

  fix it themselves and but otherwise I [TS]

  get the sense that they really kind of [TS]

  said Pixar is a bottle that makes movies [TS]

  up here and we made a new you know [TS]

  bottle in LA [TS]

  that makes movies and you know so that's [TS]

  the test right is kinda pixar process [TS]

  just be replicated in another place and [TS]

  work and you know maybe so [TS]

  yea trained how to train your dragon [TS]

  dreamworks right yeah is that that has [TS]

  impressed me the most out of a group of [TS]

  trying someone trying to do pics are [TS]

  because like it hydrating dragon-like it [TS]

  pixar did it it would the animation will [TS]

  be a little bit better the art would be [TS]

  a little bit better but the story was [TS]

  pretty darn solid and the movie over all [TS]

  worked very well I thought so that that [TS]

  impressed me and I think it was creative [TS]

  creative in terms of the story and the [TS]

  design of the characters in the dragons [TS]

  and everything so that the the chris [TS]

  sanders [TS]

  Sandler's Sanders what the designers and [TS]

  directors in that movie was a director [TS]

  lilo and stitch which i think is one of [TS]

  the best disney animated movies in the [TS]

  past 40 years i right [TS]

  traditionally animated last exactly that [TS]

  I was just a point that we didn't see [TS]

  follow-ups like that because I thought [TS]

  that lilo and Stitch came out like after [TS]

  the pixar revolution and I thought this [TS]

  was a good indication that yeah I can't [TS]

  imagine that I can't imagine that story [TS]

  being told better in computer-generated [TS]

  imagery than in hand drawn animation [TS]

  enforces so well [TS]

  lilo and Stitch followed by think home [TS]

  on the range was the last of the old [TS]

  guard disney animation and after that [TS]

  they threw out all of the traditional [TS]

  animation desks and they shut down that [TS]

  division for two or three years until [TS]

  last year possible merger and last [TS]

  michael wiseman against us before oh [TS]

  yeah we don't talk about my class but [TS]

  yeah I mean last has been trying to do a [TS]

  lot of good there and I mean tangled was [TS]

  supposed to be 2d animation i forget why [TS]

  they ended up changing it to 3d [TS]

  animation but there are definitely still [TS]

  2d projects being down there [TS]

  yeah with what one more topic i really [TS]

  want to throw out for four panel [TS]

  discussion because though one disconnect [TS]

  I've had with brave at all and this is [TS]

  really going to the going to the corners [TS]

  of the barrel look for something that I [TS]

  don't that I have a problem with is that [TS]

  now of course being a Disney property [TS]

  they have 21 / in with like the disney [TS]

  princesses ice show and the Disney [TS]

  Princesses you know collection of soaps [TS]

  and and Ben Ben makeup mirrors and [TS]

  whatever they weren't they say so and I [TS]

  can't think of any situation which [TS]

  Meredith would hang out with any of [TS]

  these ladies i do i just see her legs [TS]

  just one empty the the tea party with [TS]

  one empty chair always like where's Mara [TS]

  oh she's out of the woods again [TS]

  well well no the entrances Harriet so [TS]

  why would they have that one there one [TS]

  single friend of Mary we gotta find [TS]

  somebody for your world was 14 [TS]

  that's part of it but yeah little bit [TS]

  young no I'm I again [TS]

  disagree with the all the disney [TS]

  princesses are you know airheads who [TS]

  only want to get married but no but no [TS]

  but that's the culmination of their [TS]

  story arcs this time sometimes not at it [TS]

  that way but as as somebody who grew up [TS]

  in the disney princess Sarah very much [TS]

  so and who like played the you know [TS]

  played out the disney princess thing I [TS]

  know I mean my sister and I worked very [TS]

  hard to be like yeah like Jasmine from [TS]

  Aladdin well she decides to go [TS]

  undercover and she did you know goes and [TS]

  runs around Agrabah I you know like she [TS]

  puts on GI Joe's outfit but that's not [TS]

  the second wave of Disney Princesses [TS]

  though that that's no doubt that's the [TS]

  modern conveniences wearing these waves [TS]

  where they were where they did try to [TS]

  give them all i remember when Beauty and [TS]

  the Beast came out and it was like she [TS]

  likes to read that was sit that was the [TS]

  thing so radically likes to read your 3d [TS]

  she looked out her nose at all that good [TS]

  are good hard-working farm people who do [TS]

  nothing but greater cheerily throughout [TS]

  the day isn't that Jeremy well no but [TS]

  that but they didn't in there's the the [TS]

  guy was Gaston right he's he's this [TS]

  strapping young prince type figure and [TS]

  never all the girls love him and all but [TS]

  not bail [TS]

  she knows that he's shallow jerk right i [TS]

  mean this was this was building the [TS]

  pieces of the story I mean like when he [TS]

  was playing as a kid she was playing the [TS]

  aspects of the characters that appealed [TS]

  to her but it doesn't feel like I'm not [TS]

  saying you can't enjoy the characters [TS]

  but doesn't change that in the actual [TS]

  movies these characters appeared in [TS]

  their story arcs culminated in the you [TS]

  know marriage at the end of a romance [TS]

  that the love stories a big part of the [TS]

  movie and just like the sameness of like [TS]

  every movie did they have to be [TS]

  princesses they have to get rid of it [TS]

  you have a Jonas well yeah they shove in [TS]

  love stories in a lot of places where [TS]

  there shouldn't be love stories but I [TS]

  mean Beauty and the Beast is a great [TS]

  film and i would argue you know it [TS]

  doesn't diminish bells character that [TS]

  she gets married to the beast at the end [TS]

  of the film she's still a very strong [TS]

  world character I'm not I'm not hooking [TS]

  on that it's just that internet and this [TS]

  is gonna sound like I'm being sarcastic [TS]

  but i really do mean this like sincerely [TS]

  I'm not casting aspersions against like [TS]

  and spells character personally it's [TS]

  just that I at that era I don't think it [TS]

  occurred to the screenwriters to write [TS]

  her as a fully fleshed-out character the [TS]

  way that in 2010 it would have occurred [TS]

  to fix our writers to let's make sure [TS]

  that Meredy really has depth and feeling [TS]

  and meaning behind her and so that's the [TS]

  reason why it's hard for me to it's hard [TS]

  for me to see her as being cut from the [TS]

  same cloth as previous Disney Princesses [TS]

  not that not that there's anything wrong [TS]

  with the with with Belle marrying the [TS]

  the prince at the end just that you [TS]

  never seen you know anything about her [TS]

  except where she likes she likes to read [TS]

  and she's fond of her dad and then to [TS]

  save my dad's life she agrees to be a [TS]

  prisoner and then she sort of is pulled [TS]

  along for the rest of the story is not a [TS]

  very active character I entirely [TS]

  disagree about that i mean it's it's her [TS]

  it's it's not about like the ACT again [TS]

  it's not about the little tiny you know [TS]

  she likes to read it's the fact that she [TS]

  is a she presents sort of strong [TS]

  opinions and she she forces the Beast to [TS]

  become a better person you know she I [TS]

  mean she is the driving force she's not [TS]

  getting dragged along at all shes she is [TS]

  the person acting change throughout the [TS]

  entire the entirety of the movie and [TS]

  she's the one who you know inadvertently [TS]

  starts arrayed but then tries to stop it [TS]

  at the end like she's not a damsel in [TS]

  distress and oh I'm being locked up in [TS]

  this this tower guess I'll you know it's [TS]

  not just be our guest right i think it's [TS]

  also important to point out that I don't [TS]

  think anyone's arguing that there [TS]

  shouldn't be any romance or you know [TS]

  love interest in disney movies because [TS]

  for some it's the story right i mean [TS]

  beauty and the beast without a love [TS]

  interest in a story of romance there is [TS]

  no story at all right I i think the [TS]

  argument would be that they've done [TS]

  everything they can to make bail more [TS]

  interesting character within the [TS]

  framework of a traditional fairy tale [TS]

  where she falls in love right the prince [TS]

  at the end right it but not break the [TS]

  form just make her as as kind of like [TS]

  contrary to type within the form i think [TS]

  the criticism that John is making that I [TS]

  can agree with is that too often in [TS]

  other movies where that isn't the key [TS]

  storyline where the the traditional [TS]

  fairy tale or or romance story is not [TS]

  what the movies about that they kind of [TS]

  stick it on at the end and we're even [TS]

  when you know you've got a strong female [TS]

  character at the very end the very last [TS]

  scene is oh I found a man and i think [TS]

  that's that's an issue i've always had [TS]

  words with a lot of disney movies [TS]

  oh yeah that that part definitely rubs [TS]

  me the wrong way and they're plenty of [TS]

  movies do it that way but rent a trip to [TS]

  your point of the the era of Disney [TS]

  Princesses that you're defending that [TS]

  was when that was the change when that [TS]

  was the second wave of movies that were [TS]

  successful after the classic Walt Disney [TS]

  movies and there was a rethinking of how [TS]

  the princess's behave to make them more [TS]

  their own characters in a way and more [TS]

  active than perhaps some of the classic [TS]

  ones were and so you know but with while [TS]

  not changing the kind of classic story [TS]

  arc of these characters so it was a step [TS]

  right and then what we're seeing now [TS]

  with a movie like brave is that it's [TS]

  sort of the next step which is to break [TS]

  the breaker story arc to not just make [TS]

  her a fully more fully realized [TS]

  character but but changed her to her [TS]

  destiny OC now we're getting to the [TS]

  voice-over at the end of the movie is [TS]

  all about changing your destiny and [TS]

  that's what you i think the word listen [TS]

  change your fate you can change your [TS]

  teammate Amanda change your fate [TS]

  Meredith alright so we have spent a lot [TS]

  of time talking about this and it's been [TS]

  great but uh that the clock on the wall [TS]

  I have no clock on the wall the pretend [TS]

  clock on the wall says it's time to go [TS]

  so this has been great i want to thank [TS]

  my guests for for coming tonight a great [TS]

  panel dan Frakes thanks for being here [TS]

  thanks for having me and I coat thank [TS]

  you very much for attending [TS]

  it's been a slice John siracusa thank [TS]

  you very much any chance to discuss me [TS]

  as i am there and picks are really [TS]

  yep yeah yeah we got to do more of this [TS]

  I I started to realize that that we made [TS]

  a terrible mistake and covering trying [TS]

  to cover all of miyazaki in two episodes [TS]

  instead of just taking the film's one by [TS]

  one we go back right wing go back and [TS]

  make a lead us to go back we have to go [TS]

  back [TS]

  labor day weekend miyazaki marathon [TS]

  serenity called well thank you for being [TS]

  here in and giving us a perspective that [TS]

  the men in the room with black about [TS]

  this [TS]

  you're welcome Jason I am happy to tell [TS]

  stories about my nine-year-old playtime [TS]

  any day in the princess Indiana Jones [TS]

  it's gonna be a thing only that but it's [TS]

  a sleep Skywalker you just blew my mind [TS]

  or in a far-out alright until next time [TS]

  on the uncomfortable thanks everybody [TS]

  for listening this is jason still [TS]

  signing off thanks again goodnight [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  so it's pronounced Meredy as far as we [TS]

  can tell the protagonist in brave but [TS]

  then again you pronounce Mario Mario [TS]

  right so something like that keep trying [TS]

  you get it Mary oh mary oh yeah but it's [TS]

  like my um yeah my uh my mother-in-law [TS]

  and father-in-law both from New York and [TS]

  and they pronounce what what why what is [TS]

  your problem when they talk to you it [TS]

  what we go to Florida what they [TS]

  pronounced Jason dough head for some [TS]

  reason you see is the Adirondack bird [TS]

  that goes on with that makes it somewhat [TS]

  go ahead its peculiar really [TS]