0:00:00the incomparable Todd task number 101
0:00:07August 2012
0:00:09welcome back everybody to be
0:00:12uncomfortable podcast I'm your hostess
0:00:14and snow it's episode 101 starting a new
0:00:18century of podcasting excellence
0:00:21explains him quotation marks did this
0:00:27week's episode is about book it's red
0:00:30shirts by john scalzi we did an entire
0:00:31podcast about john scalzi and his
0:00:34collected works its number 37 so you can
0:00:36get identified by 52 TV / incomparable /
0:00:4037 episode is called shadow war the
0:00:42night dragons it's got we talked about
0:00:45basically all the books that scalzi
0:00:47wrote up two red shirts which is the
0:00:51topic of today's podcast joining me to
0:00:55talk about Richards are these three fine
0:00:59upstanding citizens serenity Caldwell is
0:01:02with us again
0:01:03hello hello I wouldn't call myself
0:01:05upstanding that you know what I'll take
0:01:07the compliment I i called you that so i
0:01:09get to do that all right
0:01:11also the the great and well-read Scott
0:01:14McNulty hi Scott
0:01:16hello jason and i would call myself
0:01:18great so spun off and joining us from
0:01:22the Pacific Northwest a man who read
0:01:25many books and hence has many opinions
0:01:27about them
0:01:27Glenn fleischmann Glenn I have no
0:01:30opinion about whether i'm here tonight
0:01:31or not
0:01:32thank you thank you that that helps a
0:01:35lot
0:01:35so red shirts is a very strange
0:01:39it's a very strange book with a very
0:01:41strange subject and when i first heard
0:01:42that this book was coming out
0:01:45I i kind of thought it was a joke
0:01:48because let's let's go through the
0:01:51history here John Scalzi wrote this
0:01:54shadow or the night dragons thing which
0:01:55actually was a joke and got nominated
0:01:57for hugo award for best short story that
0:02:00was his the idea of the perfectly
0:02:02targeted fantasy novel title and he also
0:02:07did little fuzzy fuzzy fuzzy nation
0:02:09which is the reboot of a classic sci-fi
0:02:12novel little fuzzy
0:02:13and so then he is red shirts thing gets
0:02:16announced and I think to myself
0:02:18surely this isn't real this is it was
0:02:20John Scalzi gone crazy is what is he
0:02:23doing all this you know all these
0:02:25strange pranks and stunts and and wacky
0:02:28chapters two books that don't exist and
0:02:30reboots of things is it going to really
0:02:33write a whole novel of with the premise
0:02:35that it's a basically startrack seen
0:02:37from the from the perspective of the
0:02:40redshirts who are going off to their
0:02:42impending doom and on of fundamental
0:02:46level that is sort of where this book
0:02:48starts right he did this book the only
0:02:52way that this book could have been done
0:02:53i kind of feel like it like everything
0:02:56you did the chicken he did the the
0:02:57kitchen sink approach this he like took
0:02:59everything you said he did
0:03:01simultaneously
0:03:02well the so this book there is a way to
0:03:05do this book and do it extremely badly
0:03:07right which is to say okay here's it's
0:03:11going to be wacky we're gonna have a
0:03:13ship and it's going to be like Star Trek
0:03:15and the characters will be recognizably
0:03:18Star Trek characters and accept our main
0:03:21characters of the red shirts and they
0:03:22all realize that the redshirts get
0:03:24killed a lot and it really bugs them and
0:03:27that's there's it's a novel and then we
0:03:30would you get that in a couple of
0:03:32chapters and then the rest of it would
0:03:34just will be just belabor it endlessly
0:03:37and I i could type that I mean that is
0:03:39what I dreaded when I read this book was
0:03:42that it was going to be this one joke
0:03:44and it's like well scalzi I like his
0:03:45stuff
0:03:46let's see if there's some other way to
0:03:48do this but that was my fear was that
0:03:50this was going to be a UH sort of a
0:03:52single joke played out over an
0:03:54appropriate length and we would get the
0:03:57joke really early on and then there
0:03:59would be nothing left to appreciate
0:04:01about it right i mean did anybody else
0:04:03you know that Scott was that your
0:04:05feeling about going in it was my my fear
0:04:09if you're I'm always suspicious of books
0:04:12who's the author name is larger than the
0:04:15title and that's a book that yes that is
0:04:19I guess John Scalzi has gotten to that
0:04:21point in his career where
0:04:22his name is more important than the
0:04:24title of the book so that worried me and
0:04:27then of course the premise like you said
0:04:29it's kind of flimsy I you know it's kind
0:04:33of like a running science fiction joke
0:04:36so I didn't know what more could be done
0:04:40with it and especially I didn't know if
0:04:42it was a joke that could last a whole
0:04:43novel but he cleverly kind of made it
0:04:47kind of three different things together
0:04:49so he kind of addressed that I but you
0:04:53know i mean it's it's it's it wasn't
0:04:56horrible i actually quite liked it
0:04:58yeah I like 22 and I liked it because it
0:05:01wasn't one of the big reasons i like
0:05:03this because it was not what I expected
0:05:05I expected so just as a brief recap we
0:05:09meet these red shirt characters this
0:05:10indeed that the horror story you know my
0:05:14fear of what this book would be about it
0:05:16is that's what the book is at the start
0:05:18right so at the start we meet these
0:05:21characters who are being assigned to the
0:05:23intrepid which is the ship that they
0:05:25vary enterprise like ship the flagship
0:05:28of the universal Union the dub dub right
0:05:31there
0:05:32eww eww i forget what they call yet
0:05:36it's just it's it's ridiculous because
0:05:38it's the Federation that's the w that's
0:05:40it w space for the blob the w space
0:05:43fleet the flagship the universal Union
0:05:46capital ship intrepid right and and and
0:05:49the characters there's a an alien ish
0:05:52guy who's very basically Spock and
0:05:55there's this blowhard captain and
0:05:56there's a you know an engineer in a
0:05:58doctor and I mean it's he's done a good
0:06:00job of you know changing everything
0:06:04while making it perfectly clear all we
0:06:05all know what he's doing here and it's
0:06:08so it looks like this is going to be the
0:06:09story and then I what scalzi did that i
0:06:14thought was really impressive is he you
0:06:19know he he gives his character he treats
0:06:23his characters like real people and he
0:06:25treats the premise seriously and then
0:06:31just sort of takes it to its fullest
0:06:32extent and I didn't expect that I
0:06:35really didn't expect you today we're
0:06:37okay what if what if this scenario
0:06:40played out at and then it gets really
0:06:44weird and meta right where he also
0:06:46throws in there that they realized that
0:06:49this is they find this reclusive
0:06:51character who's like hiding in the
0:06:52middle of the ship somewhere and we're
0:06:55all these uh like carts are stored or
0:06:59something it's so bizarre
0:07:01it's I thought you liked that part
0:07:03because of the real genius
0:07:04it is actually yeah well as well it is
0:07:07he's lastly and he he is obsessed with
0:07:10something called the narrative and it
0:07:13turns out that this is this is a more
0:07:16than just a story about characters who
0:07:19were stuck on a on startrack about to be
0:07:22killed it's a it's a story about
0:07:23characters whose lives are being
0:07:25determined by the scripts of a sci-fi TV
0:07:29series and as we learn a particularly
0:07:31bad side that's not so great
0:07:34not so great and and schools he himself
0:07:37was the technical advisor for the for
0:07:40stargate universe the last and stargate
0:07:42series so he had some experience with TV
0:07:45although he has an author's no worries
0:07:46look this Stargate Universe is much
0:07:48better than this terrible show i'm
0:07:49writing about now so it that that point
0:07:54I have to admit that point at that point
0:07:57the novel almost lost me because I
0:07:59thought it was going to get very meta at
0:08:02which it did but and an overly clever
0:08:06and and that was the moment where I
0:08:09really I i began to fear that this was
0:08:12not what I expected but might actually
0:08:14be worse than I expected you know I
0:08:17think it brings both of those things but
0:08:19at the same time it
0:08:21it rides the line very carefully i have
0:08:24to admit when I first started reading
0:08:25the book and this is the first scalzi
0:08:27book that i have read which is an
0:08:29interesting way to enter into his
0:08:31fiction the old man's war might be a
0:08:33better place to start but ok yeah old
0:08:36man's war was on my list but this one
0:08:38came out first and I heard that it was
0:08:39short and we were talking about
0:08:40potentially discussing it and I'm like I
0:08:42like red shirts
0:08:45better go and it's his best-selling book
0:08:47so i think that for a lot of people
0:08:49sometimes just a strong but yeah the
0:08:51first when i first started reading this
0:08:53I actually assume I'm like okay well
0:08:55they can go one of two ways
0:08:57I I thought about the TV show in the
0:08:59back of my head but my first thought was
0:09:01oh they're gonna have like an evil AI
0:09:04controlling and pulling the settings
0:09:06right sure but he's basically been
0:09:07blackmailed by this evil iight you're an
0:09:09Inuit you're looking for an in-universe
0:09:11premise right you know I assumed it was
0:09:14that way and then the second they start
0:09:15talking about the narrative I'm like oh
0:09:17wait you mean this crazy half-assed
0:09:19thought i had in the very beginning of
0:09:21the no reading the book is actually
0:09:23where they're going
0:09:24this is insanity yeah yeah there's a
0:09:29whole last job I always put my talented
0:09:32writer hides half of the ass for later
0:09:34really lolz lolz us into a sense of
0:09:36believing that the narrative that he's
0:09:38constructed as the narrative with the
0:09:40capital and time travel plots and all
0:09:43this nonsense he leads us to believe
0:09:45that that's actually the narrative is
0:09:46telling then he tells a different
0:09:48narrative within that structure that he
0:09:50tells three more in areas in appendices
0:09:53yeah right we're going to bed which will
0:09:55get to know really will get to the
0:09:57killings write the book was fun and then
0:10:00the general plot of you know the
0:10:02redshirts was pretty great and I was
0:10:05like this is a solid B book and like
0:10:07really enjoyable and something fun to
0:10:09read good summer reading and then he
0:10:13dropped the remote is one after the
0:10:14other
0:10:15yes yes oh so before we get there so
0:10:17yeah what happens is you know you're
0:10:20reading a story this this is the metal
0:10:24part you're reading a story and it turns
0:10:25out that these guys are being controlled
0:10:26by this narrative which is the TV show
0:10:28and and as I was saying earlier that's
0:10:30the point where I thought oh gee this
0:10:31could go horribly wrong and where it
0:10:33doesn't go wrong is he
0:10:35he just keeps going with taking the
0:10:37whole thing seriously and set and you
0:10:39can see him almost as a writer saying
0:10:41alright I've done that now what it's
0:10:44like well now they're going to try to go
0:10:46you know they'll try to go
0:10:49contact the writers of the show they'll
0:10:50try to go back in time but how is that
0:10:52possible well of course star trek and
0:10:54shows like it use ridiculous things that
0:10:56don't make any sense of their several
0:10:58points scientists
0:10:59in the kiss your characters say that
0:11:01doesn't work you couldn't do it that way
0:11:04and like doesn't matter when the
0:11:06narrative is focused anything is
0:11:07possible because they just whatever the
0:11:09writers write happens so that's his
0:11:11commentary part but they go back that
0:11:14was a moment where it got me back all
0:11:15the way was when they said no we're
0:11:17gonna go and try to talk to these people
0:11:18who are writing these stories and get
0:11:20them to stop killing us because that if
0:11:23you were that character in that world
0:11:25that's exactly what you do we gonna do
0:11:27yeah and so then they do that and then
0:11:29they have their adventures on on planet
0:11:33earth trying to deal with the the
0:11:35writers of the intrepid Series and
0:11:38trying to meet them and then they
0:11:40discovered that they are meeting their
0:11:42actors which is something so he starts
0:11:45wackiness narrow and schools is that is
0:11:48that for star trek for ya also it
0:11:50reminded me and I it's something i've
0:11:51mentioned before there's this visit to a
0:11:54weird planet damn fiction
0:11:56although i think it was a published in
0:11:58the seventies that was about starting a
0:12:02transporter accident that swaps the
0:12:04actors with the actual Star Trek
0:12:06characters and that's their two stories
0:12:09told from the opposite vantage points
0:12:10where the actors are on the enterprise
0:12:12and where the real characters are now in
0:12:15in modern-day or nineteen sixties
0:12:17California and it was it was very much
0:12:21in that vein to where suddenly there's
0:12:23the checkoff like character who keeps
0:12:25getting horribly maimed but then
0:12:27miraculously saved and his his actor is
0:12:33like some sort of famous kind of more
0:12:35Playboy's kind of character and they
0:12:37they had there's a whole like you know
0:12:40whole set piece really where they ended
0:12:43up kidnapping him and driving him
0:12:45because he's he's drunk and made they
0:12:47they kidnapped him and drive him away in
0:12:49his car and then they talked to him
0:12:52which again you end up with these
0:12:53duplicates actually talking there's no
0:12:55no cheat of like well what what happened
0:12:58I don't know he was unconscious you'll
0:12:59never know the truth said no he and his
0:13:01actor have a have a whole conversation
0:13:03about their lives which is again scalzi
0:13:06taking it taking it seriously in in this
0:13:09completely crazy idea of applause
0:13:12he he never you know he's funny but he's
0:13:16taking it seriously in the sense that
0:13:17he's gonna he's gonna explore his
0:13:19premise to its conclusions and not fit
0:13:21not to a fake-out which I really like
0:13:23yeah it doesn't feel like he's just
0:13:26putting it for you as you were saying is
0:13:29like a oh well I guess I'll never talk
0:13:31to each other and you can meet your past
0:13:34pseudo self but I mean this is something
0:13:37that the Coda's which come after the
0:13:40story play on in a great deal is so the
0:13:43characters go back and meet their actor
0:13:46cells and they meet the writers of the
0:13:48show and they basically two out the
0:13:50writer of the show and be like why do
0:13:51you gotta kill us man
0:13:53and after that all happens and things
0:13:56are resolved in a way that I guess we
0:13:58can i watch suppose interface listening
0:14:00his read the book will say let's fire
0:14:03the so we're going on
0:14:06but the boiler aren't ya so they get
0:14:09things results and then then what
0:14:13happens afterwards what happens once you
0:14:14realize that as show that you have been
0:14:16writing is real people
0:14:19well I have been before that though the
0:14:21in the last two in the last two chapters
0:14:23that these two characters that this one
0:14:25of the things calls he does what I
0:14:26really like is he's got the what I I've
0:14:29always heard you referred to as the the
0:14:32law of the economy lot of economy of
0:14:33characters where every character has a
0:14:35purpose so if you're in a mystery and
0:14:37there's only one person who's not yet
0:14:39explained well they did it because
0:14:41there's only they don't show you
0:14:43characters who are pointless and there's
0:14:46our answer these there's that our
0:14:48protagonist a doll and then there's this
0:14:50other character who is his buddy who
0:14:52doesn't ever get killed and you keep
0:14:55waiting to see why is he going to be
0:14:56important and there's no explanation for
0:14:58why he's important and in the end in the
0:15:00next to last chapter doll realizes
0:15:03something that is scalzi pulling it back
0:15:07we've been reading this narrative all
0:15:09along this book and and you know you buy
0:15:12into the premise that they're controlled
0:15:13by the TV writers because that's what
0:15:15the story is about in the last chapter
0:15:17scalzi undercuts that completely and
0:15:20says it all realizes that he's the
0:15:23protagonist of a different narrative
0:15:25which is the book that were reading and
0:15:27he asks his friend my to confirm this
0:15:29and says you know you have no other
0:15:31purpose you just kind of you've never
0:15:33been hurt you have no reason to be here
0:15:35and yet you're always around
0:15:37I think your purpose is to confirm to me
0:15:40whether this is true which the character
0:15:42doesn't mess us now I gotta go because
0:15:44i'm going to be on duty and he walks out
0:15:45and and that's an amazing chapter
0:15:50because that's really scalzi laying it
0:15:52all out there about like what it is to
0:15:54write characters and what happens to
0:15:55them when the book is over and is it's
0:15:57in everybody's imaginations and all is
0:16:01the protagonist he's not this red shirt
0:16:03because he's the main character in a
0:16:05novel that everybody at that point who
0:16:07you know has read the entire novel with
0:16:09him as the protagonist so that's a great
0:16:11ending up on its own without the code is
0:16:14and of course it's cuz you can't resist
0:16:16because he is a very funny writer and
0:16:17and this is a funny book but
0:16:20you can't resist one last joke which is
0:16:21that doll walks out too and they live
0:16:24happily ever after until six months
0:16:25later where the ship is hit by an
0:16:27asteroid and everybody dies and then no
0:16:30no just can't handle a specialized
0:16:31chapter is not just I'm just messing
0:16:34with you
0:16:34that's I really live happily ever after
0:16:37a minute when i read that next batch
0:16:39it's where the book will make me laugh
0:16:40heartily laughs out loud and that last
0:16:43chapter i was i was laughing that was
0:16:46really funny but that that's right i
0:16:49mean it's it's they're not real
0:16:51he could kill them and it doesn't matter
0:16:52and and yet it does matter because
0:16:54you've invested something in these in
0:16:57these characters and I I realized my one
0:16:59level this is completely kind of a
0:17:01ridiculously a self-referential thing
0:17:04that he does but but he did it never you
0:17:08know it never seemed cheap it never
0:17:10seemed funny to me it never seemed like
0:17:11he was not taking the reader and the
0:17:15character seriously and I guess that's
0:17:16why I I didn't you know I didn't ever
0:17:19sour on the on the premise
0:17:22well you know I thought the book um for
0:17:24the redemption for me was i I thought I
0:17:26was sort of cute like okay so that whole
0:17:29first part most the large part of the
0:17:31novel before the the code is coming with
0:17:33Jerry no significant enough in their own
0:17:35right
0:17:36um I enjoyed it but I felt it was an
0:17:38extended premise and I thought he took
0:17:40the promises he went to the full extent
0:17:42it could be i've read the same thing I
0:17:45feel like in less clever form without
0:17:47the science-fiction aspect but examining
0:17:49the notion of that for instance Muriel
0:17:51Sparks novel the comforters written in a
0:17:54publisher 1957 examine this idea at some
0:17:57depth in which shot
0:17:59Wow right I novelist starts hearing
0:18:02voices the sound of typewriter realize
0:18:03it's exactly her life being you know led
0:18:05so it's not a new idea and I think some
0:18:09people writing about this thought wow
0:18:11what a great idea to have a meta novel
0:18:12like it's not original like okay we know
0:18:14that's not original but I felt I don't
0:18:16know I felt that kind of played out a
0:18:18little far there's a lot of you know he
0:18:21wanted the one character walks into a
0:18:22bar and sees a version of another
0:18:26character it was killed who's the
0:18:27bartender in a bit part
0:18:29on the show at some point as that
0:18:31character is killed oh yeah that's
0:18:32really that's really touching and you
0:18:34know they have a more moment and I think
0:18:36scalzi writes those moments well but
0:18:38though what saved it for me what pull
0:18:41the whole thing together i think was the
0:18:42third coda which is a beautiful story
0:18:45told very warmly and almost stands alone
0:18:48like you almost don't need the entire
0:18:49rest of the book right for that story
0:18:52but i think it benefits from it and I
0:18:54think for some level sort of warmed the
0:18:56rest of the story for me
0:18:57yes so so I'm glad you brought that up
0:18:59one of the things that happens is one of
0:19:00these one of its core of the Samba love
0:19:03red shirts that we meet I mean he does
0:19:05need to do you know what what happens to
0:19:09red shirts right he needs to take a
0:19:10character that's like fundamentally if
0:19:12you're gonna write a book like this you
0:19:13gotta meet these characters and build
0:19:15them up and then kill one of them and
0:19:17make it feel like it matters if even if
0:19:19you don't care about them you care about
0:19:21how it affects the other characters that
0:19:22they're upset by it and he does that and
0:19:25you know again it's kind of the price of
0:19:27admission
0:19:28I'm end but then exactly what you said
0:19:32is the thing about scalzi doing this is
0:19:34like he does the baseline and you think
0:19:36okay he did the baseline and that's not
0:19:38he just doesn't stop there he keeps
0:19:39going and so we get a scene when they're
0:19:41back on earth there back in LA and they
0:19:45meet the actor who played their friend
0:19:46who died and its really emotional and
0:19:49upsetting and yet also happy in a way
0:19:52because he didn't die i guess right away
0:19:56um I and I thought that was brilliant
0:19:58right because it's not it made it made
0:20:01that all matter more that he died when
0:20:04he was a redshirt because it mattered to
0:20:06them and now you you see how their they
0:20:08emotionally react to seeing him again
0:20:10and in real life and that's played out
0:20:12even further in the CODIS but you know
0:20:14that that you know the more I think
0:20:16about it the more I I just impressed
0:20:18that that schools he had enough respect
0:20:20for his characters in his premise to
0:20:22take it all the way and not do what I
0:20:25think a letter writer would have done
0:20:27which is sort of fun it in and just hit
0:20:28the notes and get out
0:20:30yeah i think the as i said i think the
0:20:31code is elevated for me from a good
0:20:35summer reading you know put it down
0:20:37after you finish reading and maybe I'll
0:20:39think about it a couple months now but
0:20:41the code is really
0:20:42make it stick in my head and the first
0:20:44the first Kota is funny the first Kota
0:20:46is really there just to make you think
0:20:48about it and again the you know i'm just
0:20:50messing with you
0:20:51they lived happily ever after from the
0:20:53writers point of view that's fascinating
0:20:55so the first Kota is a a blog which is
0:20:59funny because schools he himself has a
0:21:01blog a blog from one of the writers of
0:21:04the intrepid who talks about his sort of
0:21:06descent into madness in a way when he
0:21:09realizes that all of the things that
0:21:11he's writing are causing sort of real
0:21:13people in another universe to live these
0:21:15things and he he become sort of
0:21:17paralyzed about killing them off and his
0:21:20bosses are upset because the drama isn't
0:21:23as good when he's trying to protect his
0:21:25characters which again is an interesting
0:21:27comment from a rider to say and I
0:21:30thought that was really funny because
0:21:31you know he he tries to throw in all of
0:21:34his knowledge of what it's like to be a
0:21:36two to be a writer on the internet and
0:21:38have people reading and commenting and
0:21:40trying to figure out what you know his
0:21:42secrets that he's trying to keep they
0:21:44kind of figure them all out because it
0:21:46gives two in much information away and
0:21:49you know I thought that was I thought
0:21:50that was really funny while also
0:21:51exploring this whole idea that well if
0:21:53this premise is true wouldn't really
0:21:54mess you up as a writer you think the
0:21:57paralyzing when you you know you're
0:21:59actually hold the little roll power of
0:22:01life and death although you know that
0:22:03there's sort of a stick which is that
0:22:05the people from the future from the
0:22:08intrepid come to the past but once they
0:22:10go back you know there's not that same
0:22:13connection like the inos intellectually
0:22:15there's a connection these people in the
0:22:16future is affecting their real lives but
0:22:18at the same time you know what I'm going
0:22:20to come back again and say look you're
0:22:21doing again what are you doing to us
0:22:23another sort of the and if he stops
0:22:24running the show they continue to exist
0:22:27apparently so there is some level that
0:22:28is want to show cancelled as well is
0:22:30that making just keep on going on
0:22:32yeah they can make their own future yeah
0:22:33I mean there's another part of nervous
0:22:35too is like there's another story
0:22:36there's so many stories embedded in this
0:22:37is that the producer of the show or the
0:22:41see the showrunner who's a son is in a
0:22:44motorcycle accident and the right part
0:22:47on the show so they arranged this you
0:22:49know this incredibly elaborate swap
0:22:50where
0:22:51I only profiling by doing that you stand
0:22:54it
0:22:55hope that uh huhs the son's future
0:22:58duplicate is in a good shape that if
0:23:01they leave the you take the future
0:23:04duplicate weight in the past so wait
0:23:06what happens basically just do a swap
0:23:08they say you you are now going to be
0:23:11this person and because we say your this
0:23:13person you're going to be that person
0:23:15and everything saved the idea being that
0:23:18you know the universe that is created
0:23:21these weird sort of parallel future and
0:23:24past world's doesn't realize that
0:23:27because you know one is an actor and one
0:23:30is a real person
0:23:31hey they still have a hundred percent of
0:23:32the same DNA so if i take the one who's
0:23:34crazy crippled in a coma and then we
0:23:36tell the other one here you're going to
0:23:38stay here and you're going to be in a
0:23:40coma I'll we can take and then have a
0:23:43hey an episode written in the narrative
0:23:45that says oh we fix this guy's you know
0:23:48horrible motorcycle accident you never
0:23:51going to wake up from his you know
0:23:54vegetable state we just write a end-all
0:23:57be-all fix for that then he's going to
0:23:59be magically well in the future and
0:24:01consciousnesses will try and verse
0:24:04bodies and everything will be alright
0:24:06well that's clear sciences yeah I didn't
0:24:09India what's this right is that it's
0:24:11supposedly i mean i'll explain their
0:24:14pieces of the book right that the
0:24:16science is not important just kind of
0:24:18goes as it will it's true although he
0:24:19did a lot of waving hands to make that
0:24:21particular thing work but then you
0:24:23realize later that that's why the code
0:24:25is is you know the code is our first
0:24:26person second person third person the
0:24:28first person is the writer the second
0:24:30person is this guy the kid some of the
0:24:32writer who's been in a coma and it's are
0:24:35rediscovering his life using the you
0:24:38know very difficult to write in second
0:24:40person narrative approach and the third
0:24:42person is the actress who portrays the
0:24:47Jenkins the guy hiding in the w our last
0:24:49on his wife was killed for a plot point
0:24:51which is what led him to discover the
0:24:53narrative that this is the actress that
0:24:55he never met his Jenkins doesn't go back
0:24:57in time but one of the characters are
0:24:59first-person narrative in the main part
0:25:01of the book
0:25:01brings back some memories to this
0:25:04actress even though you know she knows
0:25:06it can't be hers she doesn't get the
0:25:07full explanation but you know somehow
0:25:09there's another version of herself
0:25:10identical that had this life with other
0:25:13person that was ended
0:25:14yeah that's an amazing piece of writing
0:25:16that's what I love that kota it was
0:25:19beautifully not like you so you can read
0:25:20that coded by itself but he had to set
0:25:21all this up here to give jet mean so
0:25:23there's the joke right
0:25:24he gave Jenkins a sort of ridiculous
0:25:26character he gave Jenkins an enormous
0:25:28amount of backstory in the narrative
0:25:30more than made sense and he gave him the
0:25:32backstory so we'd have we care for
0:25:34Jenkins so that when he brought the coda
0:25:36in later that right actually makes sense
0:25:38for us to feel bad you know you know
0:25:41there's where scholars he's talking
0:25:42about life itself is that God the
0:25:44universe whatever cuts short some life
0:25:46for its narrative purposes and you know
0:25:48in life that's maybe the random forces
0:25:51are God's great plan in the book it's
0:25:52disgusting doing it but he's still
0:25:54dicking with you and then go to three
0:25:57you see what the what the impact is on
0:26:00human life you know when certain
0:26:02arbitrary decision has happened and
0:26:04she's been one removed from that she's
0:26:06third-person observer of this and she
0:26:09still has that impact and it has that
0:26:11beautiful rediscovery at the end
0:26:13well it's the emotional impact two of
0:26:15the death of this character that I mean
0:26:18it by the end John Scalzi makes you care
0:26:19deeply about a red shirt who died which
0:26:22is this guy Jenkins his wife who is dead
0:26:25by the time we meet him but and and she
0:26:28was in this actress who played her was
0:26:30in like one episode of the show and that
0:26:33you know she was important and he was
0:26:35important but he didn't die and she died
0:26:37and it was to serve a plot point and
0:26:40that's what red shirts are all about is
0:26:42deaths to serve plot points and you know
0:26:45of course if it was that person had a
0:26:48life and a family and their death
0:26:50doesn't matter for the show but it would
0:26:51matter deeply to you know in reality
0:26:54when somebody dies like that it means a
0:26:56lot to a lot of people and so by the end
0:26:59here we have this character who is we
0:27:01never even saw who wasn't important and
0:27:04who died but was important to somebody
0:27:06who we did meet and it becomes this
0:27:09really deeply affecting story based on
0:27:11this character who you know was in one
0:27:13scene and died in
0:27:15me show called back to among others of
0:27:16course is the notion that these people
0:27:18exist solely to serve a plot point and
0:27:21more in the mothers worries that her use
0:27:24of the magic in that novels world
0:27:26creates all the people necessary to
0:27:29populate the reading group that she
0:27:31wants to have right well I mean writers
0:27:33do like writing stories about writing
0:27:35right and about narratives and about
0:27:36storytelling because it's what they know
0:27:38when they and you can you can be
0:27:40self-indulgent this is a bizarre book
0:27:42and it is about those things and yet I
0:27:44ultimately I like I mean I guess I keep
0:27:46saying the same thing which is that this
0:27:48could have really been a disaster and it
0:27:50wasn't and he's to be credited for
0:27:52making lots of really good choices and
0:27:55caking his story seriously so that it
0:27:57didn't become a disaster
0:27:59maybe we never never would've thought it
0:28:01was a disaster and he he took his
0:28:03premise and and started writing it and
0:28:05then said oh ho I i think i've got a
0:28:07direction i can take this that that will
0:28:09that will be good and I I think he did a
0:28:12pretty good job but it's not my favorite
0:28:13of his books by a long shot but and it's
0:28:17bizarre it's one of the weirder books
0:28:19I've ever read
0:28:20I would actually have to say because it
0:28:22is it's it's we haven't even talked
0:28:23about how you know I oh man the college
0:28:26papers that are going to be written
0:28:27about this book because there's so much
0:28:29in it that is you know it's it's almost
0:28:31like pop philosophy in a way because
0:28:33there's so much sort of existentialism
0:28:36in this book right it's like what does
0:28:37it mean to be alive and what is the
0:28:39meaning of life and are our life stories
0:28:42written by other people or written by
0:28:44ourselves and I mean you know take those
0:28:46college students though some ideas for
0:28:48papers for you
0:28:49well i think that there's also case we
0:28:50made the thing that room was talking
0:28:52about earlier that you can read this
0:28:53book to like you could read this book as
0:28:56a is just the sort of lights i read i
0:28:57pick it up you read the whole thing
0:28:59there's the kicker chapter 24
0:29:01haha was just screwing with you guys
0:29:03every we're all fine before you get to
0:29:05kotas and you can read the codes and be
0:29:07confused and say I don't get them you
0:29:09know I don't get this but the first part
0:29:11of the book was sort of clever and fun
0:29:12and get it full space stuff and doubles
0:29:14and time travel that's great and then
0:29:16completely ignore Dakotas and to say I
0:29:19don't get this one seems extra these are
0:29:20like postscript don't know these need
0:29:23you know what I think the Dakotas make
0:29:25the book oh yeah i mean i agree i just
0:29:27mean people could miss read the book
0:29:28though easily oh yeah i mean i guess i
0:29:30guess i could see that but at the same
0:29:32time I almost see this book as something
0:29:34which is almost like Ray Bradbury ask
0:29:37where you have the light-hearted science
0:29:39fiction and then the undercurrents of it
0:29:42you know there's so much about the first
0:29:44half of this book that's so wildly
0:29:47scientifically inaccurate so many you
0:29:49know crazy things not respond that
0:29:52grounds the small stories of the qoutes
0:29:54so much more like I think it was you
0:29:57were saying earlier Jason about you know
0:30:00or maybe it was Glenn about the code is
0:30:02sort of resembling a short story that
0:30:04you kind of need the first half of this
0:30:06book for background on and it's kind of
0:30:09interesting looking at them that way and
0:30:10that I mean kota three you know could
0:30:14very well be a short story on its own
0:30:16but because we have sort of the sci-fi
0:30:18caper in front it actually works like it
0:30:23it ties it cohesive Lee together whereas
0:30:25before like if i adjust red coat of
0:30:28three and a science fiction anthology or
0:30:30something like that I would have been
0:30:31like oh this is a you know this is an
0:30:33interesting short story but I don't
0:30:36really feel the sort of gut punch as you
0:30:39do having gone through the first half of
0:30:41the book for the call another one for
0:30:42the college students is you know it's
0:30:44totally true these these stories at the
0:30:46end the code is at the end don't have
0:30:48the impact or wouldn't have the impact
0:30:49were it not for the story that comes
0:30:51before and since this is a story about
0:30:54these characters on a television show
0:30:57I have to say you know you can think of
0:31:00it that way that that some stories need
0:31:02a lot of setup before you get to the
0:31:05story and knowing the characters or
0:31:08having good in this world for a while as
0:31:10the thing that gives them impact and
0:31:11that's what TV shows do really well and
0:31:13it in a way the novel does exist to set
0:31:17up that story and that story would not
0:31:19be strong without the novel being there
0:31:21and so because we understand how this
0:31:23world works and what has happened
0:31:25previously then that story really works
0:31:28and and you know again there's a whole
0:31:30another college paper waiting to happen
0:31:33somebody wants to write some literature
0:31:36papers about
0:31:36john scalzi Scott what did you think of
0:31:39of Richard's it as our a voracious
0:31:41reader and at a Star Trek fan too
0:31:44well you I didn't want to try min since
0:31:47everyone was a you know express a great
0:31:49praise for the book and sadly you would
0:31:53think that I am the ideal candidate or
0:31:55not this book immensely i love start
0:31:57drink so that's that's a checkbox I like
0:32:00john scalzi so that's that's a check
0:32:02right i enjoy when writers write about
0:32:05writing and include themselves as
0:32:08characters and then you know think about
0:32:10the narrative and that's all what this
0:32:13book is about but it did not work at all
0:32:15for me
0:32:16ah I mean it why shouldn't they didn't
0:32:18work at all for me I thought it was a
0:32:19fun read but I thought it was kind of a
0:32:22like a bubble all surface
0:32:25I didn't really think that he really
0:32:27delved into these ideas very much i
0:32:29think the problem there are two problems
0:32:31ah that made it didn't work for me and
0:32:34they're both obviously subjective right
0:32:36so the biggest one is humor right so
0:32:38humor is so difficult to write because
0:32:41everybody has different sense of humor
0:32:42and I the the humor in the book just did
0:32:46not work for me at all I didn't like the
0:32:48last chapter
0:32:49Oh cheap when he said you know they're
0:32:51all dead and then haha just kidding that
0:32:54did i did laugh at that I just thought
0:32:55that's a giant rip off and I hate you
0:32:58haha and i didn't believe in that I
0:33:03didn't care about the characters so if
0:33:05you don't care about the characters
0:33:06Dakota's don't really work because I
0:33:11didn't care about what happened and so
0:33:13the having more information about them
0:33:15didn't really matter to me i obviously I
0:33:19appreciate what he was trying to do what
0:33:22it just did not work at all for me and I
0:33:26think that another example of kind of
0:33:29like the metaphysical talking about
0:33:31story things that did work for me is
0:33:33there's an author called Paul Auster who
0:33:36is a like one of the Giants of
0:33:38post-modernism and he wrote that the New
0:33:40York trilogy which is fantastic one of
0:33:42my favorite novels ever and it's all
0:33:44about it's kind of a detective story but
0:33:47really it's a story about the story and
0:33:48paul auster is a character
0:33:50it and he's writing the book but it's
0:33:51also in it so it's free it's kind of the
0:33:53same area that skull sees a working with
0:33:57but obviously not with the syfy twist
0:33:59and it's unfair to compare Paul Auster
0:34:04and Jonathan's calls because they're you
0:34:06know they're completely different
0:34:07writers obviously in there they're
0:34:09trying completely different things but
0:34:12it just it i kept comparing it to that
0:34:14book and it would fall short as would i
0:34:16think ninety-eight percent of the books
0:34:18written fall short of that margins that
0:34:20that mark so it's unfair obviously but
0:34:23didn't really work for me
0:34:25Wow is the short version of that server
0:34:29no I think your criticism as well
0:34:30because it's it's this is one of the
0:34:32things i like about the book to is that
0:34:34there's so much in it there's so much to
0:34:37like dislike or critique he's packed so
0:34:39much and I think you came down on the
0:34:42downside of a lot of things that the
0:34:43rest of us may have found as more up
0:34:45properties
0:34:46yeah and I can totally see the other
0:34:48side I can see how as i was reading this
0:34:50I was thinking I could be enjoying his
0:34:53stuff
0:34:53how dare you your points are equally
0:34:55parallel you know exactly what I was you
0:34:57I i was sad that I wasn't enjoying it as
0:35:00much as I i knew i could be but just
0:35:02there was something that just didn't
0:35:04work for me
0:35:05you have to admit he this could have
0:35:06been really really bad though it was not
0:35:09it was not bad at all it was not I don't
0:35:12think its failure i think it he did he
0:35:16took the idea and when interesting
0:35:18places with it just at it overall it did
0:35:21not work for me but i think that it is a
0:35:23it was it an attempt that was ambitious
0:35:28and certainly didn't crash and burn it
0:35:31just was like I was just mad about it
0:35:33and yeah i'm not going to nominate it
0:35:35for you or anything right eye and I but
0:35:38i think i would I do wonder how much of
0:35:39my reaction to it was just sort of
0:35:41relief that it was not the terrible
0:35:42thing that I kind of envision that it
0:35:44might be that that he was i I like i
0:35:47said i really admire that he fully
0:35:49committed to his premise and just kept
0:35:51going with it and kept exploring it i
0:35:53think you're right that it's not as
0:35:55funny as it could be into individually
0:35:58although i did like the ending I I that
0:36:01I was totally suckered by that I didn't
0:36:03I I laughed so I i took it the other way
0:36:05and that it was a ripoff but that's just
0:36:07it was a it was kind of a funny a funny
0:36:10joke but but i did find the last the
0:36:13Dakotas affecting and that I and I think
0:36:17Wren said this to I think that can put
0:36:19it over the top for me into the I like
0:36:21two categories to hit his effort in
0:36:23trying to commit fully commit to his
0:36:24premise and then the fact that at the
0:36:27end you you you know i did like these
0:36:30characters on you know on earth on our
0:36:33current planet Earth who are affected by
0:36:35this crazy science fictional premise in
0:36:37a real human way I like that about it
0:36:40you know so that those are the things
0:36:42that that made me like it but you know I
0:36:45I see where you're coming from Scott I i
0:36:47think there are plenty of things that i
0:36:48have issue with here it's certainly not
0:36:50his best work by a long shot i mean it
0:36:53might even be his worst novel but I
0:36:56liked all his novels so what did you
0:36:59like the androids dream because this
0:37:01reminds me of uh that's the 1i haven't
0:37:03that's the 1i have a red that's the only
0:37:051i haven't read it sitting on it a
0:37:06little bit of a hot mess i mean i was
0:37:07going to say like red shirts is a is a
0:37:09positive version of that in that like
0:37:12when she pulls everything together and
0:37:14his dream it's like it's a lot of
0:37:16interesting funny ideas that they stuff
0:37:18two duffel bag and shook so it's a
0:37:20little inconvenient but it's just like
0:37:23there's a lot of plot in it and to sort
0:37:25of make a joke about philip k dick book
0:37:28at some point you know that's that's
0:37:29part of the whole point of this large
0:37:32joke of the book but yeah that's you
0:37:35should you should read that could lead
0:37:36to read involves animal husbandry i
0:37:40gotta say i'm actually just as a side
0:37:43note this retirement john scalzi waited
0:37:45a whole podcast about him a little
0:37:48worried about john scalzi honestly i-i-i
0:37:51like him I like many of his novels i
0:37:55think his blog is really interesting i'm
0:37:57a little worried that he is he is not
0:38:01focused on the things that make him a
0:38:05good writer and he is
0:38:08I mean what I said earlier about stunts
0:38:10i mean he did this book which is this
0:38:14wacky high-concept thing
0:38:17and he you know he quit himself ok right
0:38:19or or not if you're Scott uh he don't
0:38:24regret reading it
0:38:25he did he did he did a fuzzy nation
0:38:28which again I kinda liked although I
0:38:29actually read the original and thought
0:38:33it was better than fuzzy nation was
0:38:35heated shadow or the night dragons he's
0:38:37doing this I guess I was like a serial
0:38:38novel thing on tor.com he i just i
0:38:43wonder if he is you know it is he not
0:38:48focusing on the things that made him
0:38:50successful in the beginning with what
0:38:52writing these novels like old man's war
0:38:54and and that series and has become
0:38:58almost like a you know the internet
0:39:01celebrity sci-fi writer who does crazy
0:39:04you know high-concept projects instead I
0:39:09don't know III because I I feel like
0:39:11he's done a lot of those lately
0:39:13well this is more ready player one that
0:39:15is old man's war that's for sure that's
0:39:18true and i asked see him read a report
0:39:21for this book and I kind of got that I
0:39:23it i I'm sure he's a lovely man he
0:39:25seemed very personable but I I got the
0:39:28sense that he was really really enjoying
0:39:32his internet celebrity which of course
0:39:34you know he should and he should enjoy
0:39:35his success uh and who am I to judge
0:39:38what he does sure he's he's far more
0:39:42successful than I am so who would he
0:39:44doesn't care what I think but I was just
0:39:45got a weird vibe from the whole thing
0:39:48yeah he got the Wil Wheaton reading its
0:39:49audiobook and he's got the jonathan
0:39:51coulton doing a song for his you know
0:39:54for it for the novel there's like a
0:39:56redshirt song there is it's cute but but
0:40:00it feels like you know how is he
0:40:02nerds on the internet love that stuff
0:40:05right but I I part of me feels like it
0:40:08it can be really insular and and you you
0:40:12risk believe in you if you believe your
0:40:14own PR uh-huh and you risk disappearing
0:40:17up your own backside and I worried about
0:40:19that with john scalzi know that's what
0:40:21the point at which you know at the
0:40:23reading I was like oh this is not good
0:40:24because obviously you're doing reading
0:40:27people go there who like you right so
0:40:29it's kind of an easy
0:40:30the crowd and I got it he was getting a
0:40:34lot less and he he wrote this dialogue
0:40:37things set in the red church universe
0:40:40about a lawyer suing the United Union uh
0:40:45you know on part at under labor laws and
0:40:48trying to get a settlement for it right
0:40:50and so he wrote this thing so he could
0:40:51do it at various readings and he told
0:40:55people it secret don't tell anybody
0:40:56about it whatever and you know it was
0:40:58mildly amusing but people were laughing
0:41:01their heads off like this was the most
0:41:03insanely funny thing they've ever heard
0:41:06which i think if you kind of if you do
0:41:09not you know set yourself in your mind
0:41:12okay this is a very amenable audience
0:41:15and perhaps this isn't as funny as it
0:41:17would be elsewhere
0:41:19you might start believing your own hype
0:41:21well this is the Woodstock implosion
0:41:24it's that you have a very large audience
0:41:27of people who have now found their sort
0:41:29of arch semi Ron a ironic an erotic
0:41:33crowd so you've got my fallen storm and
0:41:37wil wheaton and john scalzi and a whole
0:41:39bunch of other people Felicia Day like 2
0:41:41everyone is working at everyone else's
0:41:43projects everyone involved in it and it
0:41:46you can't critique it from the
0:41:47standpoint of popularity because all
0:41:49these people are achieving a measure of
0:41:51Fame beyond a geek subculture or you
0:41:54know both you know by any measure
0:41:56they're making money they're getting
0:41:58popular they're leeching into mainstream
0:42:00culture but it is a Woodstock Oh sphere
0:42:03you know echo chamber that is
0:42:05threatening to swallow us all into a
0:42:07singularity of 8-bit graphics now it's
0:42:10not beyond know that that's a complete
0:42:12loss of perspective it is concentrated
0:42:14nerd subculture but it's not beyond it
0:42:17was a black is black hole so it's simple
0:42:19it's super narrow nerds appealing to
0:42:24other nerds and you know it's great the
0:42:26redshirts got the marketing that it did
0:42:28and it's great that it is that John
0:42:30Scalzi sold a lot of copies of it more
0:42:32than his other books but he's got a lot
0:42:33of other books that are better and my
0:42:36head that sort of the root of my concern
0:42:37is it would be a damn shame if people as
0:42:40talented as john scalzi and some of the
0:42:42other people that we mentioned here
0:42:43I know not a damn shame that they can
0:42:46make a living by serving that nerd
0:42:48audience but i think a damn shame if
0:42:50they are that they kind of turn inward
0:42:53and are only trying to serve that
0:42:55audience and not trying to serve ya a
0:42:57broader audience and think more broadly
0:42:59and that's Michael I'm sorry that's why
0:43:01we go that's why I'm calling an
0:43:02implosion is that there's a lot of the
0:43:03artists facing inward in that circle
0:43:05were actually doing quite well within
0:43:06some of it leaks out you know so expects
0:43:09suspect escapes the Woodstock black
0:43:12heroes fears and but so the broader
0:43:14culture but i think there is a lot of
0:43:16inward turning I mean Jonathan Coulton
0:43:17an interesting case you've forgotten
0:43:19episode two of you talk to him but his
0:43:21music can be broadly appealing although
0:43:23it has a narrower appeal to a particular
0:43:26niche audience as well that made the
0:43:28following much more closely and then it
0:43:29joins not big enough
0:43:31he doesn't have to appeal I mean this is
0:43:32like the louis ck thing or all of those
0:43:34things is a point at which you don't
0:43:36have to appeal outward and do stuff that
0:43:38may be more challenging and difficult or
0:43:40be interesting to a group outside of the
0:43:42insular part and i think there's a
0:43:43danger there as you say I like I'm sure
0:43:46it hasn't really happened yet but yes I
0:43:48feel like see a lot more of that
0:43:49everyone pointing to each other in a
0:43:51circle and you know outside that circle
0:43:53are 10 million people with dollar bills
0:43:55and there's nothing wrong with was
0:43:57saying I could make a i can make a
0:43:58living i found an audience and I could
0:44:00make a living at this i mean i think
0:44:01that's fantastic that people like like
0:44:04Jonathan Coulton can can make a living
0:44:06because they found even though they're
0:44:07not broadly popular they have found an
0:44:10audience big enough that loves them
0:44:11enough to support them i think that'd be
0:44:13great
0:44:13artistically it bothers me because I
0:44:16feel like that leads to this sort of the
0:44:19video potential you're just you i know
0:44:21my audience and I know what they want
0:44:23and I'm not saying that that that like
0:44:25Holden would do this but it would be
0:44:27very easy for jonathan coulton I've
0:44:28heard him when he was on with Merlin
0:44:30Mann on Marlins podcast he talked about
0:44:31the you know the archetypal jonathan
0:44:34coulton song and you know you could you
0:44:35can do a paint-by-numbers jonathan
0:44:37coulton song fairly easily
0:44:39it might it be as good as his but you
0:44:41know I at if I if he's an artist that I
0:44:43like I want to see him stretch himself
0:44:45and and push himself and and Scotty I'm
0:44:47worried is is you know he's had a lot of
0:44:50projects recently then I'm not so sure I
0:44:52think they're like more high-concept
0:44:53appealing to the to the masses who love
0:44:56him and may
0:44:57he not trying to push himself further
0:44:59and hey you know if if you can make a
0:45:01living doing that that's great but as a
0:45:03consumer of your work I i would like to
0:45:05see you not be kind of in this insular
0:45:08you know in insular nervous fear I think
0:45:11you hit with high concept to its
0:45:12something i mean that's that deal right
0:45:13is like high concept means you can
0:45:15describe it in shorter than elevator
0:45:17ride between two floors you know why
0:45:19after you while you're walking up the
0:45:20flights three stairs three steps
0:45:22redshirts novel on it's like red shirts
0:45:25i wonder if that's what bothered you
0:45:26about it initially bothered me a bit too
0:45:28was you like the title of the book tells
0:45:31you what it's going to be about and then
0:45:32the book turns out not to entirely
0:45:34confirm our worst fears
0:45:37it's like a relief and the respect and
0:45:39uh he uh i'm scott i'm usually you in
0:45:42this scenario so I the book is entirely
0:45:45from reviewers really the words red
0:45:48shirts and the knowledge he writes about
0:45:50science fiction tells you what you think
0:45:51the books me about and everything else
0:45:53elaboration and it's much better and
0:45:55more subtle than that you worried that
0:45:56someone can just do a call-out you know
0:45:59hey i'm going to talk about
0:46:00you-know-what back since we call you
0:46:02know you worry that the whole thing
0:46:04becomes call-outs shoutouts right right
0:46:09no I think that's it I mean and again I
0:46:10don't wanna die I think it's great that
0:46:12people love Woodstock and people you
0:46:15know people love wil wheaton and they
0:46:16love Jonathan Coulton and they love but
0:46:18I don't know that I want that I want
0:46:19that culture to creep after I feel like
0:46:21when you when everybody's on a cruise
0:46:23ship you know it's all hot cocoa crews
0:46:26and Woodstock and things like that
0:46:27I think it's great inside there and I
0:46:29also wanted to be already validated but
0:46:32i wanted to be a this is where we were
0:46:34talking on episode 100 of the
0:46:36incomparable about organization and
0:46:38genre ghettos and so forth it's against
0:46:40the same thing you want you don't want
0:46:42the stuff you like necessarily to be
0:46:43entirely trapped inside of a
0:46:45self-perpetuating hermetic means that
0:46:47only people right steep themselves so
0:46:50fully in the culture can understand you
0:46:52wanna be able to talk to other people
0:46:53about this stuff too
0:46:54yeah and if it becomes so insular that
0:46:56it's great if everybody can make a
0:46:57living at it but I I'm not really
0:46:59ultimately not interested in reading a
0:47:01novel by a person who is only interested
0:47:03in making references to the circle of
0:47:06people that we all know and are all I
0:47:08mean at some point it's just
0:47:10yeah it's just disappointing and
0:47:11depressing and I saw you know I'm not
0:47:13gonna buy my new novel called Colton day
0:47:16wheaton the eternal trilogy yeah okay
0:47:20well ya around ready player to
0:47:22reconnoiter to that's my favorite
0:47:26yeah I don't know I that that's a that's
0:47:29it's just if it's just a feeling little
0:47:31spider sense the back that it's just so
0:47:34I hope John Scalzi while he's he should
0:47:36make money and as much of it as he as he
0:47:38can and he should do he should follow
0:47:41his bliss but I hope you know I hope he
0:47:45continues to challenge himself
0:47:46creatively and not just kind of pander
0:47:47to the to the audience that is a little
0:47:51smaller and more insular and you know
0:47:53but hey you Richard sold really well so
0:47:56maybe I did maybe not be red shirts to a
0:48:00shadow war the night dragons which I
0:48:02read because it was a hugo nominee you
0:48:04know it's funny but at the same time
0:48:06it's really just kind of a terry
0:48:07pratchett riff it felt like a lost
0:48:09chapter from a charity project novel
0:48:12yeah I read that whatever that the short
0:48:15story and and you when you compared to
0:48:17the other nominated short stories you
0:48:19think why why yeah why is this here
0:48:22oii so any Hugo's you can you can vote
0:48:24no award is one of the options and you
0:48:29can rank them it's a ranked choice votes
0:48:30you can have six votes if there are five
0:48:32nominees and that means you can insert
0:48:34no award in the middle and say below
0:48:38here if these are the only ones left
0:48:41I vote to not have an award which is
0:48:43great because it's the fu of of award
0:48:46voting it's hilarious in the best novel
0:48:49category you might put no award above
0:48:51deadline by mere grant just an example
0:48:54and not saying that's how I voted that's
0:48:56how about it and 44 short story for
0:49:00short story i voted i voted no word
0:49:03above shadow or the night dragons
0:49:04because it doesn't fit
0:49:05it's a joke and I'm actually really
0:49:07concerned that because people like John
0:49:09Scalzi he's gonna get the award today
0:49:11he's a nice guy and he is he's funny and
0:49:13he's got his website and that's great
0:49:14and in no it's not appropriate
0:49:19it doesn't fit it's a it's a funny joke
0:49:22that's really a terry pratchett parody
0:49:25sort of and no now yeah and I mean there
0:49:28are some of the short stories
0:49:30denominators are just absolutely
0:49:31beautiful and that yes I it would be a
0:49:34shame for a joke to win it would be a
0:49:38joke for a shame to win but still if
0:49:40it's a well-crafted joke i think it has
0:49:43its on its own merits I don't
0:49:44necessarily think it should win either
0:49:45but it's I think writing it off as aid
0:49:49in April Fool's Day prank rather than
0:49:52looking at it as I mean the story as
0:49:54good as far as farcical as it is is it
0:49:58I mean it's a I I thought it was kind of
0:50:01funny but really you know again like I
0:50:04said I felt like a terry pratchett kind
0:50:06of thing to me and just a chapter and
0:50:08there were some jokes in it and it was
0:50:10funny but i don't know i mean it was it
0:50:12didn't feel some of those short stories
0:50:16are really kind of beautiful and
0:50:17spectacular and then this was you know
0:50:19an internet joke that was mildly funny I
0:50:21I just don't i don't know i don't think
0:50:24they measure up at all maybe they need a
0:50:25new category that's like best internet
0:50:27joke
0:50:29yeah I mean I don't necessarily think
0:50:31that the story is better than the rest
0:50:33of the short stories out there for the
0:50:35Hugo's but it's just I I'm reticent to
0:50:38disqualify something just because it was
0:50:40written for the internet or written as a
0:50:43joke or something like that you know i
0:50:44would
0:50:45it's it's not as good a story as the
0:50:47other short stories there
0:50:49yeah but that's why it should not when
0:50:51the Huguenots that it was already fools
0:50:53project i don't know if it was a
0:50:55beautifully written
0:50:57Joe could that through you know on the
0:51:00well I guess it all goes to what do you
0:51:02think is a why should something a hero
0:51:05right so if it's just because it's fun
0:51:07to read and popular then sure that you
0:51:10get the you go if you think that it's an
0:51:11award for you know the craft writing and
0:51:15you know how you know how well-written
0:51:18something is and how it affects you then
0:51:21I think that that probably shouldn't win
0:51:23Hugo yeah of course I guess it is a
0:51:26popularity contest when it comes down to
0:51:27it so maybe we'll so before we go I
0:51:30wanted to just very quickly go around
0:51:33the
0:51:34room and asked my favorite uncomfortable
0:51:37book club question which is what are you
0:51:41reading
0:51:42Scott McNulty what are you doing
0:51:45oh I i'm reading a book yay
0:51:48really it's an actual physical book that
0:51:51I got oh there's this building that has
0:51:53the books in it you can take it out free
0:51:55and it's not theft so wow it's very
0:51:59exciting so I read there's a new book
0:52:01this that just came out called sharps by
0:52:03an author called KJ parker who had never
0:52:07heard of but they were really marketing
0:52:09this sharps book so i bought it with
0:52:13some google credit that I had from the
0:52:16google play store and i read it and i
0:52:17thought was really good so that led me
0:52:19to want to read another one of this
0:52:22person's books i was going to say her
0:52:23but KJ parker is a pen name and that no
0:52:26one knows who this person is or what
0:52:28their sex is so i am currently reading a
0:52:32book by KJ parker called devices and
0:52:34desires about basically an engineer who
0:52:38is kicked out of his City because he
0:52:42created an abomination which meant that
0:52:45he built and a little toy outside of the
0:52:49specification agreed-upon specifications
0:52:52of the guild so they were going to kill
0:52:54him he escapes and it's all about how
0:52:56he's going to exact revenge upon the
0:52:59city through a very complicated means
0:53:02one imagines in the trilogy this is the
0:53:03first book in the trilogy so we will see
0:53:06how it goes
0:53:09from the library mhm it came from the
0:53:12library
0:53:12very nice serenity Caldwell what are you
0:53:16reading I'm reading several things also
0:53:18from the library is the new place that I
0:53:21moved into the library is three blocks
0:53:23from so I feel like it's a cardinal sin
0:53:26if i don't go check out books at least
0:53:27once a week we love what I have actually
0:53:30I've never read the dark is rising
0:53:32series so despite being young adults and
0:53:35despite me having should have having
0:53:37read it like 10 years ago I picked it up
0:53:39because I'm like I have been meaning to
0:53:41read this and this seems like it could
0:53:42be interesting summer reading despite
0:53:44the fact that it's set in christmas time
0:53:45I so I have that on my on my I'd say my
0:53:50bedside table but really it's a floating
0:53:52bookshelf in my doorway because i don't
0:53:54have room for a bedside table in the
0:53:56studio so that's sitting on my floating
0:53:58bookshelf as well as stranger in a
0:54:00strange land
0:54:01it's a it's a catch-up time yeah i'm
0:54:05using the summer as catch-up time for
0:54:07books that I have been meaning to read
0:54:09but haven't read yet and i just finished
0:54:11Joe Waltons uh half half penny what's
0:54:17the series called Scott like the small
0:54:19small small change will change yeah I I
0:54:23keep on thinking of its other name where
0:54:25it's like a a brief look at fascism or
0:54:28something codes to fascism but that I
0:54:33just finished reading the third book in
0:54:34that series and that is a really lovely
0:54:36technology for people who haven't read
0:54:38we're going to do a book club about that
0:54:40serious i think yeah we should I I what
0:54:43we should do that we should we have a
0:54:45quorum of people who have read it
0:54:46yep I'm with the third one yet but I'd
0:54:48be more than happy to I just wish you
0:54:50know depressed enough by the first to it
0:54:51I thought I'd leave it out there for a
0:54:52little while the third one is pretty
0:54:54good
0:54:54alright i liked it i'll read it when
0:54:57what are you reading
0:54:58I will have an epic couple months of
0:55:01work and in which work is occupied
0:55:05have you read nothing my waking hours so
0:55:07I red red shirts
0:55:08I'm actually reading i think the closest
0:55:11thing to an appropriate book that I'm
0:55:13reading is the Phantom Tollbooth which
0:55:14i'm reading aloud to my five and
0:55:17seven and a fraction almost eight year
0:55:20old alma ATA adore it's a 51-year old
0:55:23book it's a lovely book everything is a
0:55:25kid not totally getting it's fun to read
0:55:27it as an adult
0:55:28it is so horribly full of puns and
0:55:31mechanisms and synecdoche and silliness
0:55:36and Hungary and it's um it's a wonderful
0:55:39book and what's great is it works so
0:55:41amazingly for kids when you're reading
0:55:43stuff that's really deep critique of
0:55:46language at some level and silly the
0:55:48silly part comes through even when the
0:55:51critique of society language freedom
0:55:53patriarchal domination whenever when
0:55:57that parties requires more advanced
0:55:59years so i highly recommend that a
0:56:0151-year old book delightful dice and
0:56:04hamburger is my favorite sort of buggery
0:56:06by the world hunger is the only
0:56:08acceptable form that doesn't get your
0:56:09explicit label on itunes I and i just
0:56:14finished a talent for war by jack
0:56:16mcdevitt which is the first of his Alex
0:56:19Benedict series of novels which of
0:56:22course i have read all the others could
0:56:25save the first four last which is very
0:56:27strange but I just sort of fell into
0:56:29those books and they don't really need
0:56:30to be read in any order and that's you
0:56:33know I had to laugh because this in many
0:56:34ways is the archetypal McDevitt
0:56:36adventure novel they're fun big brought
0:56:39you know widescreen space adventure
0:56:41novels this is Benedict is the Indiana
0:56:44Jones of outer space he's a an
0:56:46archaeologist who finds lost treasures
0:56:49throughout the galaxy and what's funny
0:56:53about it is that McDevitt has his things
0:56:55that he has in every like every jack
0:56:57mcdevitt book somebody will munch on a
0:56:59sandwich sandwiches will fit figure in
0:57:01the plot at some point there will be
0:57:03asking of skimmers that they get around
0:57:05in there like little air cars there will
0:57:07be a skimmer accident probably involving
0:57:09sabotage there will be a shocking moment
0:57:12when one character is threatened by
0:57:13another character with a gun and there
0:57:16will usually be something that happens
0:57:18planetside when they're down on a planet
0:57:21that threatens their ability to go back
0:57:23to the the ship that's in orbit and I
0:57:25swear you know four out of five of those
0:57:28things happen in every single one of his
0:57:29novels and i love them
0:57:30but he's got his things that he does but
0:57:33I love that they're all these various
0:57:34planets and usually his plots involved
0:57:36you know we don't know why this person
0:57:38never came back but there may be like
0:57:40there may be an undiscovered planet that
0:57:42they went to that's a secret or there
0:57:44may be a spaceship lost somewhere that
0:57:46we could find and I i like that that
0:57:49that kind of stuff and it's setting like
0:57:51the year 10,000 and so it's also very
0:57:53amusing because they keep investigating
0:57:55ancient history and ancient history is
0:57:57still like the year eight thousand on
0:58:00some planet somewhere where they've lost
0:58:02all the records and that is really funny
0:58:05too so it's a it's a nice sort of light
0:58:08summer reading kind of thing that it's
0:58:10easy fun a sci-fi for the summer and
0:58:14given that i'm also trying to get
0:58:16through pretty do street station by
0:58:18China Mieville and boy i'm having the
0:58:20devil of a time getting through that so
0:58:22I i read an entire other book just to
0:58:24just to procrastinate and avoid reading
0:58:28the pretty street station that stuff
0:58:31i've read that one
0:58:32I've read that one too i wish i can read
0:58:35that one
0:58:36I bet your life but this channel maybe I
0:58:37shouldn't maybe should abandon it
0:58:39I don't know it's a big messy book much
0:58:41Glenn's been special review big messy
0:58:43book the payoff I is so horrible and
0:58:47unsatisfying battery rest of the
0:58:50sprawling book seems to be less useful
0:58:52in its nature you know me like a lot of
0:58:54officers problems with the pay the
0:58:55payoff and i have to say that pretty
0:58:57perdido street station set up an awful
0:59:00lot for what crumbles into a pile of
0:59:04crud i recall band more and saying at
0:59:06one point that he felt like he had to
0:59:09take a shower after reading perdido
0:59:11street station because he thought it was
0:59:12so kind of dirty and gross and ugly and
0:59:15nasty yeah I feel the same way I felt I
0:59:18felt covered with like undergrowth and
0:59:20battled protraction city and this it's
0:59:24like that was horrible was like you just
0:59:26got like yeah Mary montreal i won't come
0:59:30off and maybe i will just give up like a
0:59:32street and if it paid off I'd be okay
0:59:34with it but I just don't feel there are
0:59:36characters and plots and pieces
0:59:37abandoned so
0:59:38much on the sides of the track that you
0:59:40know you're like to have snow banks load
0:59:42plot detritus as the train rumbles on
0:59:45yeah well okay well that got me totally
0:59:48up for that book there you go i just
0:59:50save you 800 pages or something yeah
0:59:52pretty much pretty much all right well i
0:59:55am going to close up the incomparable
0:59:57book club for this
0:59:58this edition will be back
0:59:58this edition will be back
1:00:00with another book hopefully soon maybe
1:00:02in fact we'll talk about those Joe
1:00:03waldenbooks that's a great idea i'm glad
1:00:05we came up with it so until next time I
1:00:08want to thank my guests for reading the
1:00:10books because not everybody reads the
1:00:12books but these three people they read
1:00:14the book so Glenn fleischmann thank you
1:00:16very much for being here thank you for
1:00:18having me i read the books
1:00:19yes you do that's what I said I said you
1:00:22read the books you read the books
1:00:24yes I read the books good we read the
1:00:27books together sometimes already called
1:00:29well thank you for reading the books to
1:00:30you know I i love reading the books glad
1:00:34that I have an excuse for reading the
1:00:35books besides my own love of books
1:00:37because it it accentuates the love of
1:00:39books
1:00:40yeah I feel funny now when I when I'm
1:00:42not in the middle of a novel i feel like
1:00:44i'm getting horribly behind and the
1:00:46incomparable book club will suffer panic
1:00:48no panic and Confused read more books
1:00:51and Scott McNulty nobody has read more
1:00:53books than Scott nobody's forgotten more
1:00:55books than scott magno I'm sure somebody
1:00:57others read more books than I have and
1:00:59have forgotten them as well but thank
1:01:01you for this and no one in my sphere and
1:01:03my limited nerdo sphere as well more
1:01:07books they'll take back all right and
1:01:10that brings us to the end of the
1:01:11incomparable podcast number 101
1:01:13thanks for listening as always you can
1:01:15visit us five-by-five TV / and
1:01:18comparable please write a lovely review
1:01:20of our podcast on itunes if you don't
1:01:23like our podcast don't right ovary
1:01:25that's all we ask and until next time
1:01:28for the comfortable I am Jason snow
1:01:31thanks for listening
1:01:39[Music]
1:01:42ok so here's an exercise what if he had
1:01:46written it so the code is were the first
1:01:48three parts of the book and then the
1:01:50sci-fi novel was the last part
1:01:52yeah no I don't think it would have been
1:01:53terrible to get your world no we're
1:01:55going to throw up before
1:01:57yeah yeah it would've been interesting
1:01:58it would have been a very peculiar way
1:02:00to do it but it's I mean it's peculiarly
1:02:01did as well but I mean you could read it
1:02:03that way you can read the three coach
1:02:04had some you know some people suggest
1:02:05reading Moby Dick chapter-by-chapter
1:02:07backwards so here we got enough you know
1:02:09you could be pro 3 2 1 and not know the
1:02:12full scope of things will be getting a
1:02:13glimmering and then of the fully percent
1:02:15universe i'm not saying one should do
1:02:17that but it actually works as well yeah
1:02:19during carefully and then read moby-dick
1:02:21backward and then we'll see what you say
1:02:23no I every word backwards I mean Jen not
1:02:25to not to
1:02:27here's another paper for the comes smile
1:02:29they called me that it's like really get
1:02:33sideways maybe really stick it in a
1:02:36blender and then read the pages as they
1:02:38come out of the blender with are you
1:02:40starting an incomparable university is
1:02:41that I i am now incomparable you John
1:02:46Scalzi 101 admissions this fall