0:00:00the incomparable part test number 93 too
0:00:09well
0:00:11welcome back everybody to the
0:00:13incomparable podcast I'm your host Jason
0:00:15smell this is another edition of our
0:00:17book club and I have two participants to
0:00:20brave brave participants who are going
0:00:23to join me to discuss two novels by
0:00:27science fiction writer Paolo Bacigalupi
0:00:28I said it
0:00:31listen to me look I said his name now I
0:00:33learned how to pronounce palla bicycle
0:00:35loop his name because he wrote a book
0:00:37called the windup girl which was
0:00:38actually one shared the hugo award a
0:00:41couple of years back for best novel and
0:00:44I loved it and I voted for it and it was
0:00:47excellent and he also wrote around the
0:00:50same time a young adult novel called
0:00:52ship breaker which one a whole lot of
0:00:54awards most it was a finalist for the
0:00:57National Book Award it won the Prince
0:00:59award and the locus award which is a
0:01:01sci-fi award for best young adult book
0:01:03is a very very good book and has spawned
0:01:06follow-up called the drowned cities
0:01:08which was released i believe last month
0:01:11very recently so it's a new release so
0:01:13these are these are books in the same
0:01:15universe they are not directly connected
0:01:19except for one character which will get
0:01:22to but I I think ship breaker is a
0:01:25fantastic and we have talked about it
0:01:27briefly on a couple of podcast before
0:01:29Scott McNulty who joins me here
0:01:34it was the first person to mention this
0:01:35book to me and he got me to read it and
0:01:37he said great things about it
0:01:39Scott thanks for being here to talk
0:01:41about it a little bit more uh oh I say
0:01:44that uh his last name as a bacigalupi
0:01:46right be sure i don't know if it's right
0:01:49secondly bacigalupi bocce ball except in
0:01:52my head whenever I read that's how good
0:01:54it sounds a bicycle loopy but I can kind
0:01:56of soup paci GL UPI is he's uh his
0:02:02extraction I believe maybe italian but
0:02:05he is is he lives in Colorado he's an
0:02:07American who listen color and that other
0:02:09Voice you heard was serenity caldwell
0:02:11who volunteered to read ship breaker and
0:02:15also to read the drowned cities which is
0:02:18in the midst of doing so we will say
0:02:19goodbye to her before we talk about it
0:02:21so that she does not
0:02:22that spoiled she can go read it when
0:02:25horns for me and where does your sign to
0:02:27dive i will i will dive underneath the
0:02:31deep seas of my bed covers and read the
0:02:34rest of the book like a a good reader so
0:02:37the author which now I'm Scott give me a
0:02:40complex i'm going to call bicycle loopy
0:02:41but whatever you can call him what you
0:02:42like Colin bacigalupi go ahead a but
0:02:46paulo I'll take a loop
0:02:48he is he is basically not just a sci-fi
0:02:50writer he's like an eco sci-fi writer so
0:02:54he writes these books that are about
0:02:57their set in a world or or different
0:03:01worlds but that they have something in
0:03:02common which is this the idea that we
0:03:05are living in an accelerated age and the
0:03:07point of peak oil is coming and at that
0:03:10point there's going to be an energy
0:03:12collapse and and bad things are going to
0:03:15happen to what we think of as modern
0:03:17industrialized society and in the windup
0:03:19girl we see one version of that and here
0:03:21we see we see another where the United
0:03:23States has basically been broken to bits
0:03:27by the loss of oil and in ship breaker
0:03:31we meet nailer and and what they'll
0:03:36nailer and and his team of people who
0:03:39are basically running salvage like crew
0:03:42tearing apart ships and stay for for
0:03:47their parts and their and their metal
0:03:49which is not that far off from some
0:03:52things that happen in the real world
0:03:53when there are there's a place in i want
0:03:55to say Bangladesh where they where they
0:03:58tear apart ships for their mettle and
0:04:00it's not that far off but it's happening
0:04:02in the United States in a post you know
0:04:04almost apocalyptic eco apocalyptic
0:04:06United States not at for a young adult
0:04:11book this is not like a young boys
0:04:12adventures with his dog and his paper
0:04:14out this his this is this is dark stuff
0:04:18this is a the diana wynne jones for out
0:04:21of young adult which I actually really
0:04:23appreciate where it just it treats kids
0:04:26you know teenagers as we know you're not
0:04:28stupid we know that you enjoy a
0:04:31well-crafted story just as much as an
0:04:33adult does we're just going to take out
0:04:35some of the
0:04:35more violent aspects but even this even
0:04:37this book has has its fair share of
0:04:39violence
0:04:41yeah yeah it's it's um you know it's
0:04:43it's a tough world and there's violence
0:04:45and there's a a really bad father figure
0:04:48nailers father is a very gives Darth
0:04:52Vader run for his money
0:04:53very bad guy and they're in there on the
0:04:56Gulf Coast basically except that the the
0:04:59global warming because again a co-writer
0:05:02the global warming has caused the Seas
0:05:04to rise and so that there's an Orleans
0:05:08to because the New Orleans is completely
0:05:11gone and three Orleans yes there are
0:05:15many say don't call the thorough Orleans
0:05:17or lanes are many cities that are
0:05:19drowned
0:05:20mmm her house we'll get back to that but
0:05:23um so I mean the starts though it it's
0:05:27funny one of the things that I want to
0:05:28talk about about the two books is which
0:05:30one is which one is darker and I
0:05:34actually keep going back and forth on it
0:05:35in this one
0:05:37you've got these uh these kids are into
0:05:40these terrible conditions as scavengers
0:05:42and and we meet when we mean Taylor he
0:05:46almost dies right because he's he's deep
0:05:48down in these narrow passages in the
0:05:50ship and he falls into a into a tank
0:05:54into a gas tank and thinks he's gonna
0:05:57die but he ends up being a smart being
0:06:00smart enough to save himself and you
0:06:02know and and when he gets back to shore
0:06:04it's not any better this is just kind of
0:06:06a a chaotic environment where they're
0:06:08working for for almost nothing and
0:06:11there's a you know there's a fast
0:06:13company above them that is that is sort
0:06:17of far away and and it you know really
0:06:19it's like a forced labor camp almost
0:06:21it's just incredibly poor squalid
0:06:23conditions so you know it's that I think
0:06:26that's it's pretty rough stuff for
0:06:28something that's that's a young adult
0:06:31definitely I mean I i read a lot of
0:06:34really really dark young adult books
0:06:36growing up and I tend to prefer those
0:06:38and I'd I mean I feel like most avid
0:06:42readers tend to prefer something that's
0:06:44a little more complex and a little less
0:06:46black and white and heat I mean he does
0:06:49a really good job
0:06:51I didn't really realize until the end of
0:06:54ship breaker that this was actually
0:06:56meant to be a young adult book I because
0:06:59the way that it was portrayed in the
0:07:01language that was used i just kind of
0:07:03assumed oh it's you know it's just a
0:07:04book with younger characters and then
0:07:08when i was looking stuff up in advance
0:07:10this podcast was like oh this was
0:07:12written specifically to be a young adult
0:07:14book okay why I get that I think the
0:07:17best young adult books though are
0:07:19written like normal books they just
0:07:21happened to star maybe slightly younger
0:07:24cast wonder whether some you know
0:07:26there's some language limitations and
0:07:28ended the rally and I which is just
0:07:30wrong and there isn't and there isn't
0:07:32there isn't sex and that you know that
0:07:37those are the like sort of defining it's
0:07:38got to be kind of a PG but you can be
0:07:41really you know really dark around those
0:07:44two limitations Scott you have issues
0:07:46with when you read something young adult
0:07:48is it you know is it isn't that big a
0:07:51deal or or does it doesn't matter
0:07:54well I I generally do not like young
0:07:57adult books mostly because i enjoy
0:08:00reading I sort of said you up there
0:08:03because i know i don't get w you know I
0:08:05but generally despised young adult books
0:08:07frankly mostly because i think that you
0:08:11as Wren said they they tend to simplify
0:08:13things and uh i enjoy reading books that
0:08:18have complicated language and kind of
0:08:22multifaceted plots generally that's not
0:08:24to say i don't like a book with a quick
0:08:26plot that you know is straightforward
0:08:28because i also read a lot of mysteries
0:08:30that generally are you know to figure
0:08:32out who killed somebody and that's it
0:08:34but it's not like 14 different things
0:08:36are happening at once and then at the
0:08:37end it all comes together
0:08:39that being said I think that ship
0:08:42breaker rises above the general cross
0:08:45of crappy young adult books in that his
0:08:47well written
0:08:49yes it does is a plus yes and so that
0:08:52keeps me engaged even though the plot
0:08:54itself is fairly straightforward and I
0:08:55have no problem with that
0:08:57he manages to keep it interesting enough
0:09:01and keep the pace very quick which I
0:09:04appreciate
0:09:04and there isn't kind of like you know
0:09:07the young adult the kind of the trip to
0:09:09the young adults the kid finds out he
0:09:11has special powers that you know nobody
0:09:13appreciates it but then he suddenly a
0:09:15wizard and everybody is great and he's
0:09:18going to save the world need a dealer is
0:09:20not a wizard but no Clara fide he's
0:09:23apparently quick he's a kid
0:09:25yes he's talented smart kid but he's
0:09:28just a kid I feel like I father issues i
0:09:30add my shelf of good young adult books
0:09:33Scott because I may have missed so when
0:09:36I was a kid I was trying to think of in
0:09:39preparation of this what young adult
0:09:40books i read because both ship breaker
0:09:42and drowned cities are you know marketed
0:09:45as young adults and I was thinking to
0:09:46myself why I don't know what age group
0:09:49of young adult is but reading both of
0:09:51them I wouldn't think that young kids
0:09:53should really read them I don't know but
0:09:55a young adult is usually at least the
0:09:58way that I've seen it marketed is aged
0:10:00like 10-11 to age 17 it's a pretty wide
0:10:04range it's not for I'd say it's it's for
0:10:07kids in like the higher grades and then
0:10:09starting in middle school middle school
0:10:11is usually the starting because I mean
0:10:14most of the young adult books you know
0:10:16you're talking about the tropes you do
0:10:18get a little bit of the budding romance
0:10:20but not necessarily full-fledged
0:10:22Stephenie Meyer Twilight craziness like
0:10:25I so II you've got to be a certain i
0:10:30think i have a certain age to appreciate
0:10:32that but well you know why a is this new
0:10:36new ish category there's a i remember
0:10:39when i first heard the concept was like
0:10:40oh ok i guess that makes sense but you
0:10:42know some writers don't write books that
0:10:45are you know that have a lot of language
0:10:48and have a lot of graphic sex and and so
0:10:53it's interesting that now there's this
0:10:55category that's sort of in the middle
0:10:57there
0:10:57and yet a lot of yaa stuff is also read
0:11:00by adults and good young adult fiction
0:11:03is perfectly good for adults right it's
0:11:06not you're not reading and this is the
0:11:09argument when you read Harry Potter and
0:11:11i know that's a sore spot with Scott who
0:11:12didn't like Harry Potter but those are
0:11:14books that have become successful not
0:11:16just because kids read them but because
0:11:17adults read them and and you know good
0:11:20good fiction in that slot is good
0:11:23fiction and the problem is that i think
0:11:25there's some writers who then say i'm
0:11:27gonna i'm going to target this and I'm
0:11:29going to dumb it down and that's when it
0:11:31I I think maybe it breaks down and a
0:11:34previous podcast Scott mentioned that
0:11:36Ian McDonald who wrote a book that Scott
0:11:38and I thought was fantastic last year
0:11:40actually I think we both voted or voted
0:11:43for it
0:11:43my vote counted because i paid the money
0:11:45and scott's boat didn't count but it
0:11:46didn't for best for best novel for the
0:11:48hugo awards in mcdonalds the Dervish
0:11:50house you know he that's a fantastic
0:11:53book and he wrote a young adult book
0:11:56that Scott red and said was really bad
0:11:58because I and I worry that he just sort
0:12:00of said well its young adult I'm gonna
0:12:01take my plot my intricate plots and make
0:12:04them not intricate and simplify
0:12:05everything and then it will be dumb
0:12:07which is you know I don't know what you
0:12:09want to know in a good book whether it's
0:12:11young adults or not it shouldn't be dumb
0:12:13i read through more or less the entire
0:12:17young adult section at both my local
0:12:19library and my local borders over a
0:12:22course of like five or six years and
0:12:25that while there are some books that
0:12:27really stand out my memory and some will
0:12:28probably bring up later on the podcast
0:12:30as they relate to ship breaker
0:12:32they were definitely like their arse
0:12:34logs in in that in that category where
0:12:37you just run into very very like you run
0:12:41into somebody who wants to be Judy Blume
0:12:43except with magic or with you know
0:12:46post-apocalyptic sci-fi I and it just
0:12:50doesn't it doesn't work so well but
0:12:52there were plenty i mean even even
0:12:54something that was fairly widespread
0:12:55like animorphs which was clearly I mean
0:12:58that was a a big giant series that had
0:13:02its share and was written i can remember
0:13:04that was written by a series of of
0:13:06people are just one person but it was
0:13:09you know it would have both
0:13:11x where they would very clearly be oh
0:13:13well we're actually this is just about
0:13:15young people and young in situations and
0:13:18not really dumb down language and then
0:13:20there were other books in that series
0:13:21which was just unbearable to read
0:13:23because you're looking at this year like
0:13:25I feel like this was a writing
0:13:27assignment that i got in high score in
0:13:29in like fifth grade
0:13:31it's like bobbin Jeremy are going on an
0:13:34adventure bad writing batteries
0:13:37batteries bad well you know young adult
0:13:39right I suppose young adults have young
0:13:41adult protagonist that's part of the
0:13:42deal although there are lots of
0:13:44perfectly good fine you know
0:13:46high-quality novels that that have young
0:13:48adults as protagonists and-and-and it
0:13:51you know we wouldn't look down upon them
0:13:53for doing that it i do think that
0:13:56there's a right like people are smelling
0:13:59money from yeah especially because harry
0:14:00potter rightness ago geez I gotta get
0:14:02some of that and so you've got some
0:14:03people who are reading good books and
0:14:04some people who are trying to find a
0:14:07market for you know that by writing
0:14:09something targeted at the market that
0:14:11they think might make them a lot of
0:14:12money and i feel like when i was a young
0:14:14adult there was not a young adult genre
0:14:19well they worthy I mean there are things
0:14:21that were kinda adult book i'm reading
0:14:24juvenile science fiction right which was
0:14:27like pulp stuff from the fifties I think
0:14:30more than I mean they're like boys
0:14:33magazines it but it wasn't like a
0:14:34juggernaut that it is now and the people
0:14:37are no it's very clearly labeled now in
0:14:39a way that it i don't think it was it is
0:14:41only really just started to go that way
0:14:44when I was growing up like there wasn't
0:14:46really even a young adult section in the
0:14:48book store until I was 16 or 17 i want
0:14:52to say i usually just kind of jump
0:14:54lumped in with fiction and it was like
0:14:56maybe a subcategory with infections like
0:14:59people with young protect your books
0:15:01with young protagonists rather than
0:15:03young adults right right right i mean i
0:15:06would just end up in the sci-fi section
0:15:08and pick out a book and you know and and
0:15:11it's it's a the split infinity by piers
0:15:15anthony and i read that it's like oh god
0:15:17they're people having sex in this book i
0:15:18will read the next book now right so it
0:15:20was you know that I I think that's part
0:15:22of it too is this weird thing I keep
0:15:24liking it too
0:15:24PG rating it's I I that is some strange
0:15:27part of this young adult thing is it's
0:15:29it's a category where there's sort of an
0:15:32implied cleanness of content which you
0:15:37know III as a parent I appreciate that
0:15:40but it's it's strange and so you end up
0:15:44with books that are legitimately good
0:15:45books and then you end up with books
0:15:47that are that are not and ship breaker
0:15:49which is again what we're talking about
0:15:51is a good book it's I mean it's not it
0:15:54didn't feel to me like it was a
0:15:56watered-down a windup girl or something
0:16:00like that it feels like legitimately
0:16:01good books I story
0:16:04ya know it just happens to have young
0:16:06protagonists as the lead characters but
0:16:09it is a story is a story where adults
0:16:11exist and where some adults are very
0:16:13good and some adults are very scary and
0:16:16there are shades of grey whereas they
0:16:18might not otherwise be yeah I'm chip
0:16:21bigger actually reminds me of two books
0:16:23I read when I was growing up there was a
0:16:26book called the the ear the eye and the
0:16:28arm which I think when a alda cot or a
0:16:32newbery or something like that which was
0:16:35sort of post-apocalyptic or i guess not
0:16:38post-apocalyptic future world where you
0:16:41get three people who are were a not even
0:16:45guns for hire but like detectives for
0:16:47hire and they have to go find am missing
0:16:49a missing privileged girl and then also
0:16:53a book by I think Karthik's called
0:16:55shades children which deals with kind of
0:16:58again the weird sci-fi post-apocalyptic
0:17:00but also running from big bads and I got
0:17:04a very similar vibe from ship breaker to
0:17:06both of those two books where it's it's
0:17:10a very dark world and you're talking
0:17:12you're putting basically relatively
0:17:14young children and even in shipwreck her
0:17:16there's a there's a mention about just
0:17:18how young you know
0:17:20Naylor is and how he doesn't really even
0:17:23recognize that fact just because he's
0:17:26like well you know you're either light
0:17:28crew or your or your heavy crew you can
0:17:31either create a small enough to fit or
0:17:33you're not and he's aged just getting
0:17:35big enough that he's not going to be
0:17:37able to be like
0:17:38crew anymore exactly we don't even find
0:17:41out these characters ages until over
0:17:43halfway through that first book when
0:17:44he's quite literally coming-of-age he's
0:17:46getting to the point where he is he is
0:17:48getting bigger and of course there's a
0:17:50girl right there is a pretty girl
0:17:52inner-city got in a wreck ship and
0:17:55there's a 12 mm and you've had that
0:17:57moment which is like who i kinda like
0:17:59her something about her is different
0:18:03than what you love then turn that on its
0:18:05head though because I mean they find her
0:18:07when presumably she's dead she's dead
0:18:10and they try to cut off her fingers to
0:18:13get her gold regular jewelry that's yeah
0:18:16that's how they discover she's alive
0:18:18it's a very it's turning on its head of
0:18:20it the typical it's not really your
0:18:22usual meet-cute yeah no not so much
0:18:24hi you know we fell in love how do we
0:18:27fall in love all I was sawing off your
0:18:29fingers that's how I met my wife very
0:18:31bloody story
0:18:32thank goodness she woke up I don't think
0:18:35she could keep her jewelry and you can't
0:18:37exactly and i think that it was
0:18:39interesting so one of the things i like
0:18:41about this setting is he concentrates
0:18:44obviously want to make a point about you
0:18:46know eco-friendliness and how the world
0:18:49is going to go to pot because yeah our
0:18:51short-term thing friends us yes exactly
0:18:53but then he shows there's a clear like
0:18:56as you're reading it you think okay
0:18:57everybody is just living in squalor and
0:19:00then you realize know there's this whole
0:19:02other world of people that have the
0:19:05ships that have like Paris tales that
0:19:08can go fast and go over the place and
0:19:10have advanced technology that the other
0:19:12clipper ships that span the oceans and
0:19:14lakes high tech I really want a
0:19:16clippership when end and the neda is is
0:19:20a the child of these people who own
0:19:26these big companies that have this money
0:19:28she's she's the one that they meet and
0:19:30when they're trying to cut off the
0:19:31fingers and and she's like an heiress
0:19:34basically 2a and God has gotten caught
0:19:37up in a in a plot among the rich people
0:19:39and so there and and was attacked but
0:19:42you know she's never known you know she
0:19:45in some ways which is funny she's kind
0:19:47of our proxy in the sense that she is
0:19:50from a world
0:19:52where there isn't the kind of squalor
0:19:54that is on the beach with the with the
0:19:56ship breakers where you know where
0:19:58things are really miserable and awful
0:20:00and she has kind of no idea and and and
0:20:04so she becomes our proxy except for
0:20:06viewing it through the eyes of nailer
0:20:07and we're looking at her thinking you
0:20:08know who is this person and then
0:20:10oh it's us actually that's who she has
0:20:13just boiled and has anything she wants
0:20:15and whereas he's incredibly poor and
0:20:18fighting for survival
0:20:19I actually really like how I'm not gonna
0:20:23try and pronounce the author's name
0:20:24Apollo the greats
0:20:27but you're gonna be yeah you may have
0:20:30mr. B mr. B yes but the eco integration
0:20:35into the story
0:20:36it kind of snuck up on me where i'm
0:20:38reading this and I'm like man drowned
0:20:40cities and city killer and you slowly
0:20:42start to realize oh this is you know
0:20:44this is the United States and you
0:20:46realize oh it's because of crude oil
0:20:48drilling but it's never it's never gone
0:20:51out and explicitly said yes humans you
0:20:54are bad you are destroying things
0:20:57beware for there will come a day when
0:21:00all of this comes you know there's there
0:21:02are certain books it's better for that
0:21:04yeah and it's just kind of like know
0:21:06this is you know this is how it is
0:21:08dropping and jam it down your throat and
0:21:10actually there's a lot of here it's a
0:21:13lot of stuff within this book in that
0:21:15sort of manner which I really appreciate
0:21:17it so nice to as a reader be able to
0:21:21actually discover things for yourself
0:21:23and not feel like the author is saying
0:21:25yes focus on this for it will be
0:21:28important in 50 pages from now feed ya
0:21:33another one thing I hate more than young
0:21:35adult books are preaching books that are
0:21:38trying to tell teach me a lesson
0:21:41overtly and and so this book is
0:21:44obviously it has a theme and he he is
0:21:47clearly a a an environmentalist but he's
0:21:50not saying you know the characters don't
0:21:53stop and say gee wouldn't have been
0:21:56great if we had thought about this
0:21:58before this all happened message to the
0:22:01past
0:22:02exactly you you're destroying us your
0:22:04you cause this you cause to know that
0:22:07simply its implicit and and but he did
0:22:09it right there isn't a moment where they
0:22:10turned the camera basically and say if
0:22:13only you would you had saved your oil
0:22:16and not know it I mean it really his his
0:22:20whole deal here is to say I'm i built
0:22:23into the world once you accept this
0:22:24world exists you accept that we've
0:22:27completely squandered you know
0:22:29everything and this is the remnant sort
0:22:31of the the you know hollowed-out remnant
0:22:34of our society after we run out of fuel
0:22:36and I just hope that I'm on the
0:22:39high-tech part and I'm not yelling on
0:22:41the clippership exactly you want to go
0:22:44live in the midwest that's right don't
0:22:46want another character in this in this
0:22:49story is is a very sci-fi character
0:22:53we've got these regular human beings who
0:22:55are struggling to get along but that's
0:22:57not all we are in a sci-fi novel and we
0:23:00have two lamented who is an argument he
0:23:03is a half man as they call him but he is
0:23:06a creation from human dog hyena tiger
0:23:12many other kinds of animal and he is a
0:23:15he walks like a man
0:23:17hamster yes right Mockingbird trout
0:23:21yes a most mosquito leaner yeah exactly
0:23:26he's every animal really um he is he is
0:23:29a a walks like a man but he is a killing
0:23:32machine he's he's smarter than people
0:23:34and much more dangerous than people and
0:23:38they meet him the art nailer and Annie
0:23:42to meet him and he becomes a he becomes
0:23:45their sort of traveling companion and
0:23:47and helper and what's funny about it is
0:23:50when he's introduced he's sort of you
0:23:52know he's a monster
0:23:53it's very much like the the
0:23:54sort of you you meet the monster and
0:23:57then you realize the monster may not be
0:23:59as bad as the people and and dry
0:24:03yeah yeah yeah because because they
0:24:05always father Richard Lopez is really
0:24:07really bad raising aside
0:24:10yeah as a side note i find it very
0:24:12interesting that all of the characters
0:24:14have real names up into a certain age
0:24:18where it's like all of nailers parents
0:24:22generation has real names but nailer and
0:24:25all of his crew folk to a certain like
0:24:29of rage
0:24:30yeah they all have things like naylor or
0:24:33I mean even need it gets a lucky girl
0:24:36you know right and you don't get the
0:24:38sense that these are nicknames you get
0:24:39the sense that these are actually these
0:24:41are the names that they grew up with
0:24:42everybody's open up
0:24:43yeah but this it's like surnames are not
0:24:47important anymore actual inventive
0:24:49things are not important if they've run
0:24:51out of names they are not a
0:24:54non-renewable resources host yes its
0:24:56post name apocalypse and uh huh
0:24:58there's no more than anybody region
0:25:00America reach peak naming and since then
0:25:03it's all been downhill great Taylor
0:25:04shortage of 2012 and mouse so tool is a
0:25:09really interesting character because
0:25:10what you know he is he does seem to be
0:25:12this monster and maybe he is a monster
0:25:15right and yet he is he helps them
0:25:19he's an honorable you get the sense i
0:25:21mean you're told that he is not like
0:25:23other half men in fact when they go to
0:25:25Orleans and they're they're like hiding
0:25:28in the water trying not to be spotted
0:25:30and there's like a squat that they're in
0:25:32at one point and then there are there
0:25:36are half men on the ship and and and you
0:25:39know you get to see what the other
0:25:40monsters are like and they are
0:25:41completely subservient to their masters
0:25:45and then there's tool who is he's like
0:25:47the rebel he's like the one who went
0:25:48wrong and he's a monster who is
0:25:50rebelling and that's good because that
0:25:52means he's not a monster
0:25:54he's more than a monster and it's just
0:25:56such a really interesting character that
0:26:01that just kind of drops in and then he
0:26:03you know he helps them out and they
0:26:04cling to the back of railroad cars
0:26:06as they travel along the countryside and
0:26:08he he sort of whip them into shape which
0:26:10is it's it's just a very interesting
0:26:12character
0:26:14I mean he's a he's a pseudo parental
0:26:17figure wow what a parent yeah do I know
0:26:21but actually the the whole idea of the
0:26:24arguments and not having read more than
0:26:27a hundred pages of the second book i'm
0:26:28really curious to see where that goes
0:26:30because tool does crossover is the only
0:26:32community use the crossover character is
0:26:35mia much more problem wasn't cool to
0:26:38leave out of the second book clearly
0:26:40forbids we can leave them by the wayside
0:26:42but he's like the the whole concept of
0:26:47the augments in the idea of yes we're
0:26:49going to genetically alter these people
0:26:51like combined humans with all of these
0:26:53various animal DNA is to create the
0:26:56ultimate bodyguard and then we're going
0:26:59to train them almost you know impress
0:27:01upon their minds that they may only have
0:27:03one master i'm really curious not
0:27:06knowing the end of drowned or the end of
0:27:09drowned cities yes that's the second one
0:27:11yes um if we find out just why tool is
0:27:16very different from the other the other
0:27:19arguments like why how he was able to
0:27:21break his conditioning because I mean
0:27:24they say very clearly in the first book
0:27:26when they meet other other half men you
0:27:30know it's impossible it's theoretically
0:27:32impossible for an augment to ever betray
0:27:35or walk away from their master because
0:27:38they're programmed to basically died of
0:27:40longing if the their master dies or you
0:27:43know goes away someone I don't think
0:27:46it's explained other than he's not you
0:27:47know he's he's an error
0:27:49he's not hooked up right he is supposed
0:27:51to behave like that he doesn't have
0:27:54anything that's further along this with
0:27:57this theme of you know that humankind
0:27:59fiddle around with things that shouldn't
0:28:02and it expects the things to work like
0:28:04they think it doesn't that he doesn't
0:28:06and so he's you know everyone who to
0:28:09read like the world exactly screwed up
0:28:12the Augmented creatures which is i mean
0:28:15that that is this book could be just
0:28:17saying well you know you can't you guys
0:28:19kind of screwed up
0:28:20the whole energy thing and and now we're
0:28:22reaping the rewards that global warming
0:28:24and all these things and yet he does
0:28:26have this whole other thing that gets
0:28:28thrown in which is genetic engineering
0:28:31and after you you smell side plot yet
0:28:34you spend some time thinking this is
0:28:36really about these kids who are tearing
0:28:37apart the ships and their terrible life
0:28:39on shore and then they find the ship
0:28:40that's crashed and there's a girl they
0:28:42try to cut off her finger but she's
0:28:44actually alive so they can't cut off her
0:28:46finger and yet on the side there's this
0:28:49oh did we mention that there are also
0:28:50bioengineered monsters who are smarter
0:28:52than people who are used to soldiers
0:28:54that's also bad
0:28:57no just throw that in there that also is
0:28:59that it's counter to nature
0:29:01kind of except he ends up being cut more
0:29:03of a hero than its although there are
0:29:06plenty of scary half men in this book
0:29:08yeah there are really and I also like
0:29:10the we see much more than the drowned
0:29:13cities actually we see the swells we see
0:29:14the the with rich people here where
0:29:17there's there's this corporate
0:29:19imagination going on between the the
0:29:22people who are struggling for the
0:29:24control of a of Nita's come to shipping
0:29:28family's company right and and and now
0:29:31that's going on and that's fascinating
0:29:33because from the perspective of the poor
0:29:37kids on the beach it's like who cares
0:29:40right it's just like beyond completely
0:29:42beyond them because holidays you guys
0:29:45are fighting over who gets more of this
0:29:47huge amount of money and we are
0:29:48completely penniless and on the beach
0:29:50and I feel like in in all of of bicycle
0:29:55Lupe's work that CI said there are there
0:29:58i scented we get this one of his tricks
0:30:01which i think is really effective is he
0:30:05takes situations that are you know this
0:30:07is about the future and it's about
0:30:09ecology and and about the environment
0:30:11it's also about the present and and his
0:30:16trick is that he's taking situations
0:30:17that happen now and turns them around to
0:30:21make them about as if they were
0:30:22happening to us and so he makes a point
0:30:26when he's talking about these poor kids
0:30:27that are getting beaten and threatened
0:30:30by gunfire and in both of these books
0:30:33and pointing out that it's black kids
0:30:36and Asian kids white kids they're blonde
0:30:38girl blonde kids that are there working
0:30:40as slaves and and and he's really saying
0:30:43you know you guys are used to the poor
0:30:45people you know being in far-off places
0:30:49and not looking like you and in my
0:30:52stories they look like you they are you
0:30:55and and that's part of what he does so
0:30:57it you know he's saying you know today
0:30:59we've got very poor parts of the world
0:31:00and then we've got very rich parts of
0:31:02the world that that are arguing about
0:31:04their first world problems right and
0:31:06that's exactly what happens in ship
0:31:08breaker is that is that Nina and her
0:31:10family have a lot of first world
0:31:12problems and the kids on the beach like
0:31:13you know
0:31:14hello I'm hoping to get food tonight
0:31:17well yeah I doubt that there are people
0:31:19you know they age dockworkers and South
0:31:22Korea really care about the facebook IPO
0:31:24right where it's you know it's like no
0:31:26I'm gonna you know work for my daily
0:31:28bread and get enough money to feed my
0:31:31family and the kids in bangladesh that
0:31:33are disassembling ships are are not do
0:31:35not care about what's happening with the
0:31:37latest in computer technology right now
0:31:39they don't care they're they're far away
0:31:42from that sort of thing
0:31:43yeah so I think that's one of that's one
0:31:45of a of his very effective sometimes
0:31:49tricks of of saying no this is not
0:31:51happening in a far-off land this is
0:31:54happening here are our own world has
0:31:57disintegrated and this is what it's like
0:31:58to live in a poor miserable place the
0:32:04vestiges bringing more close to home
0:32:06residents that said this is not a this
0:32:08is not a depressing kind of book the
0:32:10setting is depressing but it is a fun
0:32:12entertaining book about these smart kids
0:32:16doing what they can to survive and
0:32:19making some smart decisions in the end
0:32:22out to to beat beat the bad guys with
0:32:25the help of their you know monster
0:32:28I don't know what his mentor he's a
0:32:31monster and a mentor might see someone
0:32:33store
0:32:34exactly i wish i had a monster I will
0:32:39meet him one
0:32:39today it's got what I I mean I realize
0:32:42you and I both read this book a long
0:32:44time ago i was in Scott book years it
0:32:47was like two centuries ago
0:32:48yeah yeah you have anything else that
0:32:50sticks out for you about about ship
0:32:53breaker that we have uh huh i love the
0:32:56end where they're smart enough that they
0:32:58know the terrain of the bay that they're
0:33:00legally lowering the ship into and so
0:33:03you know there's that moment wait for it
0:33:05wait for it
0:33:06there we because the kids know like
0:33:08where the rocks
0:33:09all right but not even rocks dead
0:33:12underwater building scale yeah right
0:33:14that's right right right which is kinda
0:33:17ruined crazy
0:33:18although i will say the one thing that
0:33:20flag me about that ending was I nailers
0:33:24father is technically on the big bad
0:33:27enemy ship wouldn't he know about the
0:33:30big giant skyscraper teeth that nailers
0:33:33leading in into or maybe he's just not
0:33:35know either with the captain I think
0:33:37Richard Lopez like nah day he's kind of
0:33:41not legitimate figure he he doesn't
0:33:43really know all the stuff like he was
0:33:45always like a fixer and he was on the
0:33:46beach and I think he's not he was heavy
0:33:49crew for a while I mean I know he was
0:33:51also like you know later but I i want to
0:33:54say like he probably knew the area
0:33:56goodbye at the same time they do mention
0:33:59that that ship is a much bigger ship
0:34:01than the tiny ship and it was one of
0:34:05those things where I was like this is
0:34:08the only thing that distracts from being
0:34:10absolutely perfect
0:34:11alright but so absolutely perfect you
0:34:14say so
0:34:15so I i can I take this test then that
0:34:18you enjoyed your your reading of ship
0:34:21breaker i did not expect to but I really
0:34:23did well I want you ready ready because
0:34:27it was going to be in the book club and
0:34:28you're like alright i'll read it
0:34:29these jerks want me to read it Scott
0:34:31said he liked it but shinno scott i mean
0:34:34i i've had sort of 5050 luck the book
0:34:37club was like I've started like dervish
0:34:39house i remember reading I don't know
0:34:42200 pages of and being like I'm sure
0:34:44this book will eventually get really
0:34:46interesting but it's just catching me
0:34:48i know i know i'll finish it sometime
0:34:50right for you
0:34:52yeah and that's absolutely it is a slow
0:34:54build oh yeah when I just said that
0:34:57point I didn't have time to really like
0:34:59sit back and enjoy a thousand-page book
0:35:01with a 300-page slow build-up but with
0:35:04this one you know the first couple
0:35:05chapters are slow and I thought I
0:35:08expected myself to get kind of impatient
0:35:11with it but they build it so nicely like
0:35:14there are a lot of things that happened
0:35:15in this relatively short book but none
0:35:17of them to feel rushed
0:35:19none of them feel overlong either it's a
0:35:23it's just a really nice balance with a
0:35:26gigantic really well formed world
0:35:29considering again the limited book space
0:35:32in which they had to explain it like all
0:35:35of the conflicts feel real the
0:35:37background of the beach you know the
0:35:39beach folk feel real all the most of the
0:35:42characters developed even even the
0:35:45captain's like towards the end feel some
0:35:47somewhat developed he just has a a a
0:35:50really fantastic knack for being able to
0:35:54shape and explain a world without you
0:35:57feeling like you're you know either too
0:35:59overwhelmed or underwhelmed by it and
0:36:02poking holes through it so yeah i'm
0:36:04looking forward to reading drowned
0:36:06cities is it i started it i just
0:36:09finished ship breaker like 30 minutes
0:36:10before the podcast i started finished so
0:36:14it's very recent that's true damn or and
0:36:16almost more necessary action
0:36:18definity i only started reading ship
0:36:21breaker yesterday so you know I got
0:36:23through it quick but I'm you know I i
0:36:27read the first hundred pages of drowned
0:36:29cities in the half hour between
0:36:30finishing ship breaker and waiting for
0:36:33this podcast artisan like this world is
0:36:34actually really interesting and I really
0:36:36want to like go back to it as soon as
0:36:39possible haha told you so I don't know
0:36:44I'm yeah I'm glad I'm glad that I'm glad
0:36:47that you liked it when I first heard
0:36:49about it from scott who said it was very
0:36:51good because we were talking about the
0:36:52wind up girly snow
0:36:53shipbreakers better than the window girl
0:36:55he liked the wind up girl but it's
0:36:57really haven't read the windup girl yet
0:36:59so
0:36:59I make some people hate another and some
0:37:01people that love it and I I much to my
0:37:04surprise when i was reading it i
0:37:05discovered that i loved it so I voted
0:37:07for it over the city in the city by me
0:37:09evil and they tied so it didn't I guess
0:37:12I'm the reason since I my vote actually
0:37:14in town i'm the reason they tied because
0:37:17I I thought it was I don't like the city
0:37:19in the city too but it seems that he was
0:37:21very good but the windup girl just you
0:37:23know
0:37:23yeah I thought it was really i thought
0:37:25was really good and that this is a
0:37:26similarly similarly good i think it
0:37:30maybe is better
0:37:30Scott I mean that is a really good it's
0:37:33working my wife is a children's
0:37:35librarian and she's recommended it and
0:37:38she read it before I did in fact and
0:37:39she's recommended it to many many people
0:37:42now which i think is really cool to find
0:37:43somebody who doesn't read a lot of
0:37:45sci-fi some but not a lot but has you
0:37:48know a conduit to young minds who want
0:37:51to read books and is saying ship breaker
0:37:54is you know is a highly recommended book
0:37:57so that's good too
0:37:58I will take full credit for all of that
0:38:00you should you are molding young minds
0:38:02in California from far away in
0:38:04Philadelphia you are the monster tour I
0:38:09know
0:38:09yes but it's got i'm going to send you a
0:38:12list of really good young adult novels
0:38:15that I hope you will not hate
0:38:17so you can expand your reach of really
0:38:20cool ones should see see me i'm at that
0:38:22way i would love to see the list of I
0:38:24don't pass that onto to Lauren who can
0:38:27use more things to recommend in the
0:38:29children's library so yeah I mean
0:38:31they're all they're all like five and
0:38:3310-year olds a recommendation about
0:38:35salon might yeah they're still on my
0:38:38shelf will still cool books to go bad
0:38:40books are all short I'm Leslie when
0:38:42they're about apocalyptic futures that's
0:38:45true well sometimes to go bed
0:38:47we're not talking about this
0:38:50that's not discussing this podcast so
0:38:53now because miss Caldwell has not yet
0:38:56read the rest of the drowned cities
0:38:58oh and we are going to have to shake
0:39:00goodbye to her
0:39:01we're going to put her in the soundproof
0:39:02booth or actually just you know maybe
0:39:03hang up and go crawl into bed and read
0:39:06through and read the rest of them and so
0:39:09you two can talk so yes we thank you for
0:39:12your service and
0:39:13thanks for being on this on this podcast
0:39:15and and we will say could we will part
0:39:18ways and it's just gonna be me and Scott
0:39:19the rest of the way who is podcast is
0:39:22over for you know it's just be a night
0:39:25goodnight goodbye point yeah she's going
0:39:30i'm scott you're the last one left again
0:39:32I i just am a winner
0:39:36I'm a survivor that's why i am you are
0:39:39and a mod store constantly they don't
0:39:41wait up a new word and you are it
0:39:44yes so the dream cities the drowned
0:39:48cities
0:39:51what did you think jason has compared to
0:39:54the ship breakers which one you like
0:39:57more
0:39:58I like ship breaker better i did as well
0:40:02which is not to say that the grounds
0:40:05that i liked around cities and now one
0:40:07of the questions I had for you was it is
0:40:10is the drowned cities darker than ship
0:40:12breaker and and Mike the reason that i
0:40:15keep going back and forth on this is
0:40:17that in the drowned cities the kids we
0:40:19meet at the beginning have a semi stable
0:40:23life I mean they lost their old life but
0:40:25they like you're working for this doctor
0:40:26in a village and you know they kind of
0:40:29got a system whereas the kids and ship
0:40:32breaker just you know slaves and it's
0:40:34miserable
0:40:36the difference is that they have a nice
0:40:38kind of adventure that leads to meeting
0:40:40a rich girl who it might save them
0:40:42whereas just terrible things happened to
0:40:45kids in the surrounding cities terrible
0:40:48things I i think that without a doubt
0:40:50the drowned city is much darker than
0:40:52ship breaker if only because of the the
0:40:56number of times people say maggot maggot
0:40:58it's it's a it's a we can't swear in the
0:41:01young adult fiction so instead we get
0:41:03maggot every and you you wrote you but
0:41:06you didn't ruin I would have noticed
0:41:07anyway but when you pointed out they say
0:41:09Megan a lot as i was reading it I Bryce
0:41:11started to notice that they say make it
0:41:13a lot
0:41:14everybody's a maggot there were maggots
0:41:15their magnetism maggot that training
0:41:19maggots
0:41:20yeah hallelujah it's raining minutes and
0:41:23so is why is to the drowned cities uh
0:41:26they're like child the a lot of the
0:41:28characters are child soldiers basically
0:41:30right so yeah they're young i mean i
0:41:32think and it really did forget how young
0:41:34they are and then they they eventually
0:41:36end up someplace where there are people
0:41:38like we're in their teens or twenties
0:41:40and you realize oh geez these kids are
0:41:42like 10 12 years old right and so that
0:41:45the teenagers are like the officers the
0:41:47experienced people he actually get
0:41:49uniforms instead of just a an automatic
0:41:52machine
0:41:53no it don't even think about machete and
0:41:56it all that's true you have been a
0:41:57bottle of acid you start with a machete
0:42:00and a bottle of acid see there you go if
0:42:03you know any book that had
0:42:04as ten-year-olds waging war fair with a
0:42:08machete and a bottle of acid is pretty
0:42:10dark pretty dark pretty dark
0:42:13yeah yeah so we we meet Malia and mouse
0:42:17and they are kids who are working for
0:42:19this doctor in this village and an army
0:42:24and militia that's one of these groups
0:42:27that we we realize we're we're actually
0:42:29in the Potomac basin and this is around
0:42:31Washington DC and and these various
0:42:35militia groups are are are fighting this
0:42:37endless war with each other and they
0:42:39they come to their village because
0:42:41they've been chasing a monster through
0:42:43the jungle that monster of course is
0:42:47tool
0:42:48Oh half-man from fully booked
0:42:52yes Tyler all right yes yes the spoiler
0:42:56horn by the way that sounded for the
0:42:59drowned cities hopefully if you have not
0:43:01read it and do not want to be spoiled so
0:43:04so tool tools presence causes all the
0:43:08stuff to happen basically and Malia and
0:43:10mouse watch their village get torched
0:43:12yeah the doctor is killed horribly you
0:43:16know just awful things happen and and
0:43:18the mouse is taken in by a hand
0:43:21recruited by this uh this militia and so
0:43:25they're they're turning him into another
0:43:26faceless killing machine soldier boy
0:43:29throughout throughout this book while
0:43:31Malia is talking to and arguing with
0:43:35tool tools like well let's just leave it
0:43:38leave that lets run we are outnumbered
0:43:41and our only chance of getting out of
0:43:44this is if we leave him and there's no
0:43:46logic to stay you notice you're not
0:43:49going to be able to save him and she
0:43:50insists she doesn't i think is very
0:43:52clever that she figures out tools kind
0:43:55of pack mentality because it's kinda
0:43:57been programmed into him because he's
0:43:59part dog and she's like well he's a pack
0:44:02member we need to save him and tools
0:44:04like well alright yeah yeah I can't
0:44:07decide whether that's Malia manipulating
0:44:11tool or whether tool is like almost like
0:44:14reading her feelings for him and
0:44:18saying oh and extrapolating I great i go
0:44:22he's like part of your pack I oh that I
0:44:25understand i'm not sure what what which
0:44:28one it is but it's it's effective right
0:44:30that then suddenly he is ready to leave
0:44:34and decides not to and and she tries to
0:44:37save his life so that he'll owe her and
0:44:39he laughed it off it says I don't owe
0:44:41you anything and yet he he ends up going
0:44:43with her anyway for his own reasons and
0:44:45I you know such an interesting character
0:44:48because he's not he's not human and he
0:44:52does not behave like a human but he has
0:44:53his own honor and his own kind of code
0:44:57and he's happy to rip people into into
0:45:00shreds but at the same time he's he's
0:45:02he's like a weapon that his that is
0:45:05turned back on its creators and he's now
0:45:07it's like an a a tool of vengeance
0:45:12against those who created him
0:45:14that's true yeah and I think it's a he
0:45:17is probably the most fleshed out of the
0:45:20characters not the other characters are
0:45:22like caricatures i think a Paolo
0:45:25Bacigalupi it does a great job getting a
0:45:29lot of characterization into all of his
0:45:32characters and I think tool and mouse
0:45:35are probably my two favorite characters
0:45:37in this book
0:45:38um and which makes mouse's story even
0:45:42more depressing 40 as it was heroin
0:45:45right that he is you actually are seeing
0:45:48the steps that he goes through to sort
0:45:49of dehumanize him and and there's a
0:45:52moment where heat more mouse has this
0:45:53great success where he because he's not
0:45:55very valuable they basically thrown in
0:45:57the water and have them swim over to
0:45:59where there are snipers figuring you
0:46:01know you get shot whatever he does it
0:46:03doesn't matter and he succeeds and like
0:46:06all the people who are with him die and
0:46:09he kills and then he kills a bunch of
0:46:11people and his coup de Gras is that he
0:46:14calls in the radio is very smart righty
0:46:17call him on the radio that people who
0:46:19are firing artillery and tells him to
0:46:21move it back a few hundred yards which
0:46:22blows up their fellow soldiers instead
0:46:24of his soldiers from so children right
0:46:28and so it's you're like yay
0:46:30uh actually not a second yeah he's
0:46:34killed people and all of that but that
0:46:36so you're rooting for him and then you
0:46:37realize what you're doing which is he is
0:46:39becoming increasingly one of these like
0:46:41Jojo who is one of the other characters
0:46:43who is sort of like Mouse further along
0:46:46he's been further dehumanizing Malia
0:46:49gets a sense that ocho I you know there
0:46:53are moments when he's like a human being
0:46:54and moments where he's like a completely
0:46:56inhuman killing machine
0:46:58she doesn't really understand it better
0:47:00but now with with mouse's progression
0:47:02you see this is what happens is these
0:47:04kids are great card sort of ground-up
0:47:07and the ones who survived end up being
0:47:10they've seen all of these people died
0:47:12and they've come become completely
0:47:14dehumanized yeah it's fun
0:47:17it is it is an uplifting story it's a
0:47:20it's a rough so so it's all set it
0:47:23what's interesting is I read an
0:47:24interview with with Paolo Bacigalupi
0:47:26where he was talking about the subject
0:47:30matter and how he is not a non-political
0:47:32writer at all because he does have these
0:47:34other environmental themes in his work
0:47:37but that hehe said that as he was
0:47:39writing it he found that he was much
0:47:42more overtly political than usual and
0:47:46you see it in setting it in washington
0:47:47DC I and having these different kind of
0:47:50militia groups that are like the Army of
0:47:52God and the Patriots and all these sorts
0:47:54of things and they're there are several
0:47:56passages where he talks about how all
0:48:00this started with people who disagreed
0:48:03with the beliefs of other people saying
0:48:05they were traders or not patriotic and
0:48:09it's clearly his his take on our current
0:48:13events you know fractured political
0:48:16system where if you don't believe what I
0:48:18believe you are not you know you're not
0:48:20an American or you're against America or
0:48:23you're not a patriot and and you know
0:48:26which wich so did you find that stuff to
0:48:28be having praised him for not being too
0:48:31preachy and ship breaker did you find
0:48:32that stuff i mean i was a little more
0:48:34overtly like I'm sending you a message
0:48:36now
0:48:37yeah it was it was kind i think that was
0:48:39part of the reason why i didn't like
0:48:40this book as much
0:48:41ship breaker because it was kind of more
0:48:45so than ship breaker wearing its lesson
0:48:48on its sleeve as it were especially
0:48:50given like you said setting in
0:48:52Washington making these tee two groups
0:48:54so kind of obviously mirroring what's
0:48:59happening uh now uh without trying to
0:49:03shade it at all really
0:49:05um right it's because it's the Patriots
0:49:07against the Army of God writes these two
0:49:10groups that are saying we're for
0:49:11goodness rackets as they as they shell
0:49:14the hell out of each other kill each
0:49:16other and they don't know nobody really
0:49:18knows why they're trying to kill each
0:49:20other and the any other interesting
0:49:22thing and the climax is at the Capitol
0:49:25right right and so that that's not a
0:49:26message at all is it there in the
0:49:28Capitol building in the Capitol building
0:49:29basically is blown up in the climax
0:49:32which so it's all this time it hasn't
0:49:34really gotten hurt but now
0:49:36yeah yeah yeahs a six-time acts of this
0:49:38book it's the Capitol dome is gonna gets
0:49:41mad it's a giant building that is
0:49:43clearly a target but it's react and so
0:49:47the other thing that was kind of a
0:49:48little heavy-handed is so the Chinese
0:49:51have a apparently survived the eco
0:49:54apocalypse a fairly well and so they
0:49:57come into America to be like the
0:49:59Peacekeeper to be peacekeeper sins to
0:50:02teach people how to you know have a
0:50:04democracy and live civilized and you
0:50:07know how they can instead of a fighting
0:50:11each other they can farm and turn their
0:50:14you know they have all these
0:50:15motivational sayings and this literature
0:50:17and they paint propaganda to help people
0:50:19to wrap and only a million father was a
0:50:22Chinese peacekeeper who met her mother
0:50:25who is an American and and had her and
0:50:29then the Chinese pull out and she's left
0:50:31behind rises the Sun and they they run
0:50:34to the docks right when they're leaving
0:50:35because clearly hey we're his family
0:50:37there's growing room on the boats and
0:50:39which is so so clearly like a Vietnam
0:50:41kind of a parallel except that we're
0:50:42Vietnam and this is exactly
0:50:45and this is like what you're saying
0:50:46before he kind of twists a what's the he
0:50:49makes the and I imagine he's writing for
0:50:52largely American audience but that could
0:50:54be wrong so he kind of Western audience
0:50:56westerns that's true and so he he shifts
0:50:58your normal expectations of well that
0:51:01doesn't happen to people in Western
0:51:03civilization's yeah i mean not to not to
0:51:05be too blunt about it but I I feel like
0:51:07one of the the tricks he doesn't it can
0:51:10be very effective is he saying and he
0:51:12uses this he says is this person red
0:51:15hair and this person was blonde with
0:51:17pale skin and what he's saying is he's
0:51:19telling a story essentially about about
0:51:24what has happened recently in fact in
0:51:27Africa especially where there are
0:51:30militias with children do and they do
0:51:33and and horrible things happen in these
0:51:35children are kind of dehumanized as they
0:51:38live through these horrible violent
0:51:40spurts in in especially in Africa and so
0:51:46he tells that same story except he he
0:51:48makes a point of saying you know these
0:51:50are white kids and and and blackheads
0:51:52and Asian kids and they look like
0:51:54Americans and and you know what he's
0:51:56saying is imagine imagine how horrible
0:51:59this would be if it happened to you
0:52:01now imagine the fact that it is
0:52:02happening yeah today
0:52:04oh by the way it's in Washington DC yeah
0:52:07yeah so it hits home but he's also so
0:52:09he's making its that statement about you
0:52:11know your your environment your culture
0:52:14could be destroyed by your actions but I
0:52:17i'm interested in the fact that he's
0:52:18also making a side statement which is
0:52:20you know you can ignore the violence or
0:52:23have it be remote in some places like
0:52:26Africa but you can't I it's harder to do
0:52:31that when i when i make you think of it
0:52:33in the context of a bunch of little
0:52:35American kids who are who have a machete
0:52:37and a Nevada of acid and are and you
0:52:41know are chopping off limbs and
0:52:43indiscriminately killing people
0:52:45so yeah it's kinda dark but but i think
0:52:48really effective in that way of of
0:52:50saying you know these are horrible
0:52:52things and they're not the horrible
0:52:54things that happened this book or not
0:52:55things that haven't happened
0:52:57world they just haven't happened in the
0:52:58future in America so you know it makes
0:53:01it that all the more horrible i guess to
0:53:04see you know to look at these characters
0:53:06and say these are our these are us and
0:53:08and we don't have you know it's funny I
0:53:11mean logically of course this is not
0:53:14true but you know one of the nice things
0:53:16about science fiction is is he can use
0:53:18that device to say look you're you as an
0:53:21American are used to seeing the poor
0:53:24people in these terrible places with his
0:53:26terrible violence as having different
0:53:29color skin and different looking faces
0:53:31and being able to sort of like just say
0:53:36well that sort of thing doesn't happen
0:53:38to people like us right now with plastic
0:53:40a loop he says in both these books is
0:53:42yeah you're you wanna bet
0:53:44how do you how do you how would feel if
0:53:47it did happen to people who looked like
0:53:48you who were you how then how horrible
0:53:51would this be and that's that is one of
0:53:53these things that he doesn't answer is
0:53:55it's it's really really horrible
0:53:58spoiler alert not cool it is it is
0:54:01terrible
0:54:02that's O'Toole meanwhile takes Malia and
0:54:05I'm like on his back and breathe air
0:54:09into her mouth and maybe go into the
0:54:11heart of the drowned cities and the end
0:54:13the climax there in the basement of
0:54:15capital basically and he gets he gets
0:54:19free because he was captured by the way
0:54:22protip do not take the captured half-man
0:54:27to your lair and hope he doesn't get out
0:54:33yeah and talked a little while and then
0:54:35justice and have a guy with the keys get
0:54:37a little too close to exactly it's a lot
0:54:39of ground a bad idea because what
0:54:42happens is he gets out and he like
0:54:43literally kills just by tearing shooting
0:54:46or tearing them limb from limb every
0:54:49major senior figure in this one militia
0:54:53is just they're all dead
0:54:55me and it's it's it's Malia and Jojo and
0:54:59tool i think so
0:55:01in the basement with dead people all
0:55:04around them
0:55:05wow it's
0:55:07a pretty dark oh and i didn't even
0:55:09mention the fact that I'm Malia's mother
0:55:12has apparently squirrels away or stolen
0:55:15like all of the key artifacts of like
0:55:18the Constitution you from the National
0:55:21Archives she's basically taken all
0:55:23valuable artifacts and hidden like a
0:55:25secret room in her apartment building
0:55:28and once again playing with that whole
0:55:30idea of there's kind of two
0:55:32civilizations here one people living in
0:55:36the dragon city with to uh you know
0:55:38children soldiers kill each other and
0:55:40crazy militias fighting over inch by
0:55:43inch over a city that's basically ruined
0:55:46and worthless
0:55:47yeah and then you have like
0:55:48businesspeople from China coming by to
0:55:52purchase a the artifacts artifacts
0:55:55executor laying around because they want
0:55:57to save them from this this war-torn
0:56:00place and this is right this actually
0:56:02happens in the real world right yeah
0:56:05right right that people from the the
0:56:07rich countries come to the poor
0:56:09countries and exploit them and accept
0:56:10and occasionally the UN since
0:56:12peacekeeping forces right or NATO and
0:56:15that's what the a and you know as
0:56:17Americans were always the ones who are
0:56:19sent to those places and so again just
0:56:21like with the Vietnam parallel that
0:56:23parallel of being the place where the
0:56:25peacekeepers are sent and they are
0:56:27condescending and they're like you
0:56:28people are savages why don't you why do
0:56:30you do this why do you fight when you
0:56:32could be cultured and have a democracy
0:56:34all of these things and and he just
0:56:36turns it he just turned it all around
0:56:41yeah so did you get did you get what the
0:56:43drowned city stands for did I get with
0:56:46the ground city stands for its DC oh I
0:56:50did not make that connection haha very
0:56:53proud of myself when I realized that
0:56:54drowned cities means DC it's washington
0:56:58DC the drowned cities
0:57:00well I did not pick up another haha off
0:57:02two points for you Jay yes oh yes
0:57:06finally
0:57:07I'm off to my drought I 10 points for a
0:57:11very long time it's true but so and tool
0:57:15in this book is is is more to do it does
0:57:18is a lot more to do and and he was an
0:57:21interesting character in ship breaker
0:57:23but in drowned cities he is fascinating
0:57:26because you get you get more to Rennes
0:57:27question about what we learned about him
0:57:29I don't think we learned his origin
0:57:31story that's still kind of a mystery
0:57:33other than the fact that he's just sort
0:57:34of um didn't behave plank
0:57:38other like here is just not like the
0:57:40other moms yeah it is his pack died and
0:57:43he should have just died with them and
0:57:45he decided he didn't care and he would
0:57:47just be his own guy but such a
0:57:50fascinating character because he is even
0:57:52though he has a monster he is he is a
0:57:54above us in many ways i love that he is
0:57:57more not just stronger but more
0:57:59intelligent and he's built for war right
0:58:02and he is priorities are very different
0:58:04his morality is very different but he
0:58:06does have a morality and he is
0:58:08incredibly intelligent and it's just
0:58:10such a great character to see you know
0:58:12it is almost like an alien being in a
0:58:14way where he's he's except that he's not
0:58:16above us like so many aliens are
0:58:18portrayed as being kind of like these
0:58:20ethereal beings that are above us he is
0:58:22a is a killing machine but yet also is
0:58:26has all these other traits that are so
0:58:28much better than the people we see it's
0:58:30just it's a it's a really interesting
0:58:32character true and I think he says at
0:58:34one point the Betty what he does is he
0:58:37survives like he goes and he's been in
0:58:40all these different battlefield he's
0:58:41killed people on every confidence and
0:58:44write the main thing that he has learned
0:58:46is that he survives no matter what
0:58:48battle he goes into he is going to
0:58:50survive and that's kind of how frames
0:58:52his
0:58:53his whole view outlook on life he does
0:58:55what he needs to do to survive and that
0:58:58I think is kind of how he kinda
0:59:01overrides his genetic programming
0:59:04somehow because he want he needs to
0:59:05survive he's not just going to lay down
0:59:07and die like the rest of them like they
0:59:09think he should write when we need him
0:59:11right he's been bitten by a gigantic
0:59:13crocodile and his arms almost falling
0:59:16off and he only has the 1i and but he he
0:59:21makes it he survives it's hard it's hard
0:59:23to kill it is hard to kill as an
0:59:26enormous half man half tiger hyena dog
0:59:31monster guy any word you what you might
0:59:36expect that he be difficult to kill is
0:59:38very hard to kill
0:59:39this is true anyway he would I was
0:59:41really that was really good character to
0:59:43write was nice to see more of him and
0:59:45get a little more since I would like to
0:59:46see him again
0:59:47in fact maybe the next book will just be
0:59:50all about tool the Avengers a tool
0:59:52that's right yeah it could be open up
0:59:55but maybe who knows it could be so so in
0:59:58general the thumbs up for a drink
0:59:58general the thumbs up for a drink
1:00:00cities yeah i would think if you liked a
1:00:02ship breaker you like the drowned cities
1:00:06i don't know if you necessarily have to
1:00:08breathe
1:00:09I mean you don't they don't continue the
1:00:11same story
1:00:12no no crosses over so they stand alone
1:00:14you don't have to read one or the other
1:00:15if we're going to implementation I think
1:00:17the implication is that is that drowned
1:00:20cities comes after ship breaker but even
1:00:22that it's not it's not a hundred percent
1:00:24me a tool never mentions yeah any of
1:00:28what he's done in the previous book so
1:00:30right if you had to choose if you only
1:00:33have time for one of them i would think
1:00:35you should show the ship breaker
1:00:37yeah but it really quick reads and there
1:00:40are both well done so i would say thumbs
1:00:43up
1:00:43yeah they don't feel dumb down I mean to
1:00:45get back to the point about yaa books
1:00:47and general david this is not a it's not
1:00:49dumb down book it just because I mean
1:00:52there isn't there isn't bad language
1:00:55just maggots stream agate and if you're
1:00:58offended by the word maggot don't read
1:01:00that around cities there's lots of
1:01:01maggots are there is a lot of maggots
1:01:03all over the place but it's so funny to
1:01:04me that so young adult fiction you know
1:01:07don't swear
1:01:09and don't have sex but it's okay to have
1:01:11kids
1:01:12cutting down kids and have really
1:01:13horrible violent things yeah really
1:01:16twisted like psychological things going
1:01:19on
1:01:19that's ok but hey don't swear yeah we
1:01:23want the kids to get the wrong idea yeah
1:01:24i know i know it is very strange
1:01:27it's a very strange set of parties
1:01:28because it is it is so I mean what
1:01:30they're these are kids in with my ship
1:01:32machetes hacking off the arms of other
1:01:35kids and throwing acid in each other's
1:01:37faces you know this is not just horrible
1:01:39yeah it's not that they don't swear they
1:01:41just a maggot exactly so it's ok so it's
1:01:43all right i don't have sex except for
1:01:45the except well actually is a sex scene
1:01:47in and around cities i guess we should
1:01:48say because they wouldn't they they get
1:01:50naylor high / drunk on stuff is
1:01:53initiation or not naylor mouse
1:01:56yes his initiation into being the
1:01:57faceless member of a militia and that
1:02:00was that reminds me the kind of the the
1:02:02really chilly point for me is when mouse
1:02:04starts at some point so the the kids uh
1:02:08in the militia they they kind of
1:02:11basically shanghai mouse and he becomes
1:02:13a soldier right and they give my name
1:02:15and donate right coast is his new name
1:02:17and at some point during the narrative a
1:02:20Palo stops calling and mouse himself
1:02:24stops thinking of himself as mouse and
1:02:26thinks of himself as ghosts
1:02:27yeah at that point you're like oh boy
1:02:29that's after they get them to get them
1:02:31high and they thrown into the whorehouse
1:02:33basically the nail shed with Neil shed
1:02:35girls and when he wakes up the next day
1:02:38it's like ghosts woke up it doesn't
1:02:40agree that was very effective
1:02:42yeah yeah it's terrible that you know
1:02:45it's a it's his it his adventure is not
1:02:48a happy one
1:02:50he has a little PS a nice moment at the
1:02:52end but it's not that nice shirt and I
1:02:55mean I'm not a approved and I don't
1:02:58think that kids need to be sheltered but
1:03:00I i was reading this I thought to myself
1:03:02this is really a young adult book I mean
1:03:04it seems very extreme for a lot of the
1:03:08the violence seems a little like my head
1:03:10I'd say the high school level and yeah I
1:03:13guess that's true isn't it
1:03:14my daughter I wouldn't have my daughter
1:03:16read at ten there's no way but for high
1:03:20school kind of audience i think you know
1:03:22when i was reading stuff that was again
1:03:24probably inappropriate for or at least
1:03:27would be considered an appropriate for
1:03:29my age but it was fine
1:03:30I you know was fine read that piercing
1:03:33to me and go well
1:03:34ok so their sex in this book alright I
1:03:37don't know anything about that i'm only
1:03:3815 but i am going to read it and you
1:03:43know it which might be working in its
1:03:45own way if piers anthony is teaching you
1:03:47about
1:03:47well that is gonna be dark got a good
1:03:53thing but but I bi it this is yeah this
1:03:56is a like a high school level kinda and
1:03:58I mean I don't think it was it there was
1:04:00nothing that offended me your nose like
1:04:02a file it was of it's a good book i was
1:04:05just reading it is the thing about young
1:04:07adult fiction that throws me is that
1:04:08work young so I never know how young
1:04:09people are who are supposed to be
1:04:12reading this I think red said it's sorta
1:04:14like it's sorta like 12 to 17 or 10 to
1:04:1717 and it's a broad broad spectrum and i
1:04:20feel like my daughter is is creeping
1:04:22toward being able to read some of
1:04:24but it would be on the lower you know
1:04:26that the the younger and if admitted
1:04:29that is a broad range and at the high
1:04:30end you've got things that are you know
1:04:32in some ways just you know adult
1:04:34essentially adult but it without you
1:04:38know hardcore kind of sex and and
1:04:41language stuff which is you know fine i
1:04:44mean i-i who's to say that this book
1:04:45would have been this book regardless and
1:04:47that it's just both of these books are
1:04:50late able to be labeled as yaa because
1:04:54they are what they are right you know or
1:04:56or that but that politics loopy is just
1:04:59not he doesn't feel the need to have you
1:05:02know rough language and sex in every
1:05:04book that he writes I mean the windup
1:05:05girls got more sex and it's got more
1:05:07rough language but he's not there some
1:05:09writers that I think if you take that
1:05:10stuff away from them they would have a
1:05:11hard time and that he doesn't strike me
1:05:13as being rather like that so maybe he's
1:05:15writing is appropriate for that this
1:05:17format right and I think like Ren said
1:05:20she didn't even realize that ship
1:05:21breaker 10 adult book until she looked
1:05:23at it isn't a good sign that is a good
1:05:26sign and I think that is very true i
1:05:28don't it doesn't feel like he set out to
1:05:30kind of reddish in on the eight kids
1:05:32here's a book kids it's not like that
1:05:35you're gonna like it when you buy the
1:05:36action figure
1:05:37so before we go I wanted to ask even
1:05:40though it's just you and me I want to
1:05:41ask what are you reading
1:05:44Scott a oddly enough i just finished a
1:05:47book that i was reading today so I'm not
1:05:51it's not that on that you would finish a
1:05:52book that you're reading
1:05:54well that'sthat's know what I guess not
1:05:56so the book i just finished was the I
1:05:59only a sanction which is a mystery set
1:06:04in ancient greece about this character
1:06:08who is an agent and he looks into this
1:06:12this mystery about this the sky who is a
1:06:14representative of another city in athens
1:06:16and he dies mysteriously and so he has
1:06:19so it's it's a detective novel set in
1:06:22ancient greece it is in fact that's
1:06:24crazy that's great and there's another
1:06:26series of books that I'm reading that is
1:06:27a detective series set in ancient Rome
1:06:30so is it interesting a while there's a
1:06:33whole sub-genre of a
1:06:36ancient Oracle detective historical
1:06:38detectives in ancient in the Asian child
1:06:41huh
1:06:42they're like is there a caveman
1:06:44detective series there there probably is
1:06:46it's probably unless intricately
1:06:48plotters i would assume he again
1:06:51Chronicle this is a good thing it's a
1:06:53gold mine and and how about urself jason
1:06:56i am currently reading Leviathan wakes
1:07:00Oh which is one of the hugo nominees and
1:07:03we are going to do i believe our next
1:07:04book club is going to be the the hugo
1:07:07novel nominees in a few weeks once
1:07:11everybody gets a chance to read some of
1:07:13them I think we've all read some of them
1:07:14because we've actually done a podcast
1:07:16about two of them
1:07:18that's true embassy town and a dance
1:07:20with dragons
1:07:21hmm i but but i have no idea to read
1:07:24deadline which is the sequel to feed
1:07:26oh I really cute which you have read
1:07:28even say no don't spoil me sky any more
1:07:31than you already have I want to go in
1:07:32fresh because i'm going to read it the
1:07:34only reason i would read it is if it got
1:07:36nominated for Hugo and it did i'm gonna
1:07:39read it I am dreading the third one
1:07:41getting knob and what a guy what was the
1:07:44other OEM among others by John Walton
1:07:46which has got to be the leader in the
1:07:47clubhouse I mean oh that is such and
1:07:49which one we should say Joe Waltons book
1:07:52among others which we praise on previous
1:07:54podcast one the nebula award which is
1:07:56voted on not by fans who nominates
1:07:59terrible books like feed store but by
1:08:01the science-fiction writers association
1:08:03of america so it's the science fiction
1:08:06writers themselves nominating their
1:08:09peers and Joe Waltons book among others
1:08:11won the Nobel award for best novel and I
1:08:14i heartily endorse the nebula orange
1:08:17because that was a great choice and I i
1:08:19figure i'm probably gonna vote for among
1:08:21others for the hugo such a great book uh
1:08:23I having read all of the hugo of what I
1:08:26don't want to ruin anything but you
1:08:28among others is the best yeah that's the
1:08:30best one so sorry Leviathan wakes which
1:08:32is also funny and that it is a it is a
1:08:34sort of on one level it's a kind of
1:08:36space operate kind of the man is spread
1:08:39throughout the solar system and their
1:08:40people and all the different systems but
1:08:43it too has one of its interlocking
1:08:46stories is really a detective story it's
1:08:48true
1:08:49up who's on the cut you know he's a cop
1:08:51on the beat these given a bomb
1:08:53assignment but it's about a girl who's
1:08:55missing and is it his lieutenant tells
1:08:58him to drop it but he can't drop it I
1:09:00mean it's all these great detective
1:09:02Norrish kind of tropes it's true except
1:09:05it's happening in an asteroid and
1:09:08there's a war happening and there's
1:09:09mysterious ships that are blowing up
1:09:11other ships and i'm only about halfway
1:09:12through it but I'm enjoying that a lot
1:09:14that's and because I I registered for
1:09:16the for the hugo awards i am I got the I
1:09:21got that novel as a as a PDF as part of
1:09:23my packet as a voter and so I just been
1:09:25reading it on my iPad and in the PDF
1:09:27which was very very pretty and the
1:09:29single the sequel just came out if
1:09:31there's a secret i didn't even know what
1:09:32I hope I i hope i can do you like it
1:09:34because then I'll that I'll read the
1:09:35sequel but I'm enjoying it so far
1:09:37so that's what i'm reading is well fine
1:09:39weeks before that i read the drowned
1:09:40cities which we talked about before
1:09:42trying to keep up for the the book that
1:09:45i mentioned i read view from the
1:09:47Imperium which is a leica space opera
1:09:50parody basically these bows and i have a
1:09:53book on my kindle now that i should
1:09:56mention that it was on sale and maybe
1:09:58even still be on sale i don't know but
1:09:59you you said on Twitter that if you
1:10:01enjoy smart space opera you should get
1:10:04Sun of Suns yes i carly schroeder which
1:10:08i bought i hope you enjoy it
1:10:10alright well Scott I feel like we've
1:10:12we've covered the world the depressing
1:10:14future the destruction world of Paolo
1:10:17Bacigalupi i think i think i I'm a
1:10:19little worried about him I think he
1:10:21needs to lighten up because i have you
1:10:24seen his twitter account is why this
1:10:25girl is icon is a is a Mexican wrestler
1:10:28mask i did he's also maybe that is made
1:10:31so it's fun yeah it's kinda started but
1:10:33I read his i should say i read his short
1:10:35story collection pump six which is also
1:10:37good but again really depressing because
1:10:42it's the same stuff it is the it is the
1:10:44terrible you know eco catastrophe peak
1:10:48oil
1:10:49yeah exactly had so i will close up the
1:10:51book club for this time and thank
1:10:54serenity caldwell who has left us
1:10:56because she didn't read she's right now
1:10:57reading the drowned cities and learning
1:11:01about
1:11:01about the psychology of half-man tool
1:11:04and and scalability thank you so much
1:11:07for being here and and reading both
1:11:08books and turning me on to ship breaker
1:11:10in the first place
1:11:11you're welcome i take all the credit for
1:11:12any good book you've ever read and I'm
1:11:15glad that we got to got to the drowned
1:11:17cities before you'd forgotten what was
1:11:18in it I that I'm also glad that because
1:11:23i read is what happens is i read so much
1:11:24we decide on a book that we're going to
1:11:26talk about so i think i have to read
1:11:29this immediately and then not thinking
1:11:31oh it's probably like a month or two
1:11:32before we actually talked about is
1:11:34everybody else has to read it to exactly
1:11:36and then I forget everything right so
1:11:39you so we got at this time we did
1:11:41I've only read two books since I read
1:11:43the drowned cities and i should say for
1:11:45the those people out there who want to
1:11:46join the the incomparable book club you
1:11:50can find us on goodreads later on we are
1:11:53on the good
1:11:54goodreads and our next book club
1:11:58selection is going to be the hugo
1:12:01nominees so if you search for Hugo 2012
1:12:06i believe you will find the hugo
1:12:08nominees but uh you know as we said they
1:12:11are a dance with dragons by george RR
1:12:13martin among others by Joe Walton both
1:12:17of which we've talked about a little bit
1:12:18embassy town by China Mieville which we
1:12:21had a whole podcast about that you can
1:12:22listen to if you like and the two that i
1:12:26have not yet read Leviathan wakes which
1:12:28i'm reading now which is by James sa
1:12:32Corey just not a real person not a real
1:12:37person and me and deadlines which is by
1:12:40mira grant also not a real person it's
1:12:43true and that's the sequel to feed and
1:12:45I'm just saying
1:12:46for those of you who hate us beating up
1:12:47on feed but I'm sorry for those of us
1:12:50who love love to hear the beating up on
1:12:54feed we're going to read the sequel and
1:12:57then we're going to talk about it so
1:12:59it's very exciting
1:13:01true i would say what I thought about
1:13:03the sea no notes on the toilet
1:13:05no I'm sure you loved it
1:13:07it was really good liar
1:13:13alright until that that forthcoming in a
1:13:16few weeks Hugo special book club
1:13:19this is jason sell for the uncomfortable
1:13:21thanks for listening thanks for tuning
1:13:23in to our book club and making Scott
1:13:25night field less lonely tonight
1:13:31[Music]