The Incomparable

92: Nick Fury`s Google Hangout

 

  the incomparable podcast number 92 may [TS]

  welcome back everybody to the [TS]

  incomparable podcast I'm Jason smell [TS]

  your host and on this edition of the [TS]

  incomparable we're going to be talking [TS]

  about the summer blockbuster spectacular [TS]

  written and directed by tvs joss whedon [TS]

  it's the Avengers wildly popular movie [TS]

  rapidly served ready to surpass every [TS]

  other movie ever made by anybody except [TS]

  James Cameron is the greatest grossing [TS]

  movie of all time or something like that [TS]

  marvel's culmination of years of [TS]

  plotting and planning that began with [TS]

  the little scene that happened at the [TS]

  end of the credits of iron man the [TS]

  avengers big hit the summer to kick off [TS]

  the summer movie season here to discuss [TS]

  the matter are my guess a fine panel one [TS]

  of the finest ever assembled in fact [TS]

  they're like my own little Avengers if I [TS]

  were Nick Fury so who would be who [TS]

  that's the question that I have for [TS]

  myself i'd like to introduce my very own [TS]

  Hawkeye and more in hide and I'll man i [TS]

  was really rooting for Hawkeye i'm [TS]

  pretty pretty sight [TS]

  I mean he doesn't you know now's your [TS]

  time but I appreciate it thanks Jason [TS]

  good to be here [TS]

  I'm glad to have you here also joining [TS]

  me is my own captain america himself ben [TS]

  boychuk hi Ben [TS]

  yeah kinda wanted to be iron man but [TS]

  hello what you actually were a big fan [TS]

  of iron man huge yeah alright you can be [TS]

  armed and then how about that [TS]

  goody it could be our man owed and you [TS]

  could have an iron man 2i justify just [TS]

  argued for it [TS]

  pretty much yeah yeah now then wanted it [TS]

  i did what i would not deprive him of [TS]

  that joy now please welcome the Norse [TS]

  god of thunder John siracusa you know [TS]

  Jason I think of you I think of Nick [TS]

  Fury so this is such such a perfect [TS]

  match samuel l jackson Jason smells just [TS]

  like peanut butter and jelly the eye [TS]

  patch [TS]

  yeah it i would even John the Hulk [TS]

  because sometimes he gets really angry [TS]

  about things but all the secret dan is [TS]

  I'm always angry [TS]

  thank you John thank you I soft-serve [TS]

  that one to you I now [TS]

  we work as a team maybe I should be [TS]

  what's-her-name and like without Hawkeye [TS]

  with scarlett johansson are ya i can be [TS]

  Scarlett Johansson the dance Hawkeye ok [TS]

  good times and now he was a [TS]

  mild-mannered scientists before he was [TS]

  bombarded with gamma radiation don't [TS]

  make him angry you wouldn't like him [TS]

  when he's angry [TS]

  it's an eco hi Andy well actually if dan [TS]

  was going to be Hawkeye can I be Charles [TS]

  on a super in chester the third know you [TS]

  got the boss'll accent I can talk about [TS]

  my sister Maria you can have a little [TS]

  hole you can only be Maxwell cute clear [TS]

  a good word rash podcast is a different [TS]

  night of magic episode [TS]

  no yes that's next next thursday we have [TS]

  to match the aftermath episode so anyway [TS]

  we are talking about the adventures a [TS]

  joss whedon a creator of my favorite TV [TS]

  show of all time buffy the vampire [TS]

  slayer' and a previously had only [TS]

  directed one movie which was a serenity [TS]

  the follow-on to the Firefly TV series [TS]

  which is actually had a fine film in its [TS]

  own right but and Marvel gave him the [TS]

  keys and basically said we have been [TS]

  setting up this ridiculous film that's [TS]

  going to include a billion different [TS]

  characters and four years now and we [TS]

  need somebody to actually make it not [TS]

  stink and they brought in joss whedon to [TS]

  do that and I think the tenor of the [TS]

  reviews that I read when the movie came [TS]

  out seem to be very much along the lines [TS]

  of critics saying they dreaded seeing [TS]

  this movie figuring that it would be a [TS]

  soulless culmination of corporate [TS]

  synergy and that they were pleasantly [TS]

  surprised that it was funny and that it [TS]

  you know it managed to focus on the [TS]

  characters and not just become [TS]

  spider-man 3 basically to pick one [TS]

  example or one of the latter-day pre [TS]

  Christopher Nolan Batman movies that's [TS]

  just a complete mess in a disaster like [TS]

  Arnold Schwarzenegger is mr. freeze [TS]

  boy that movie was really bad chill out [TS]

  okay so that was really that in [TS]

  spider-man 3 or like the pinnacle of you [TS]

  know more villains or heroes just stick [TS]

  everything in there and I'm sure I'm [TS]

  sure it'll be good and they and they're [TS]

  always terrible and the Avengers i think [TS]

  from the outside it seemed like that was [TS]

  a natural guess if you had to guess what [TS]

  was going to come of this movie was [TS]

  going to be that was a mess and the [TS]

  reason it exists is because the people [TS]

  in [TS]

  our whole you know planning said we will [TS]

  make a lot of money let us let's make [TS]

  this movie and and so a lot of the [TS]

  reviews seem to be it has it's much [TS]

  better than it has any right to be [TS]

  which I think really brings me to to my [TS]

  first question knowing that andy has [TS]

  seen it and didn't really like it [TS]

  um you know it is is it a good movie [TS]

  fundamentally or is the reaction that [TS]

  people have had especially the critics [TS]

  have had to the Avengers more that it's [TS]

  not a it's not the disaster that it [TS]

  really could have been because that's [TS]

  not a ringing endorsement right I I to [TS]

  argue that it's actually a pretty good [TS]

  movie and well I think a lot of the [TS]

  criticisms that have been level that it [TS]

  had been level at the plot I I think [TS]

  that's actually the least important [TS]

  thing here because I think no matter [TS]

  what the plot i think no matter what [TS]

  kind of plot we're going to do it was [TS]

  gonna be bad like we're talking [TS]

  superhero movies here right [TS]

  superhero movie plots are you know not [TS]

  really usually the highest caliber a and [TS]

  to be fair superhero comic plots are not [TS]

  really the highest calendar right like [TS]

  however right like there's clearly very [TS]

  little respect for them otherwise they [TS]

  wouldn't just retcon them every time [TS]

  they felt like it was convenient [TS]

  so you know in that sense I think it you [TS]

  know the the movie delivered really well [TS]

  on what i was looking forward to which [TS]

  was to say let's take these interesting [TS]

  characters with them in a situation and [TS]

  see how they sort of bounce off each [TS]

  other and you know Joss Whedon's really [TS]

  well-suited to that because he's done a [TS]

  lot of work with ensemble cast before [TS]

  and that was going to be tough with the [TS]

  movie with all these people who would [TS]

  basically carried their own films to [TS]

  varying degrees of success so I think [TS]

  you know it was entertaining and yeah i [TS]

  think the the addition of you know [TS]

  having some humor and some interesting [TS]

  drama and conflict in there i thought it [TS]

  really it worked really well [TS]

  well we didn't you know his his his [TS]

  history everything he's done is really [TS]

  been an ensemble show and one not one [TS]

  way or another and this definitely felt [TS]

  like we were watching a joss whedon TV [TS]

  show series you know season long story [TS]

  arc played out over two-and-a-half hours [TS]

  and he gives everybody there moments and [TS]

  you know in many ways this was a an [TS]

  inspired choice for a writer and [TS]

  director it in in that sense that he he [TS]

  was able to bring some personality and [TS]

  get everybody there moments and make it [TS]

  not seem like a complete mess while also [TS]

  honoring to dance point the [TS]

  ridiculousness of a superhero team-up [TS]

  movie right down very important right [TS]

  down to the part where the superheroes [TS]

  fight each other over a misunderstanding [TS]

  because you've got to have that right [TS]

  always and in this case we get we get [TS]

  Iron Man and Thor especially facing off [TS]

  against each other with some which is [TS]

  perfect because geeks are always about [TS]

  well who would win in the wind [TS]

  that's right but will captain America [TS]

  would come in and break it up that's [TS]

  what would happen [TS]

  clearly clearly he's such a killjoy [TS]

  yeah that's Steve Rogers [TS]

  i feel kind of like the people who watch [TS]

  serenity who had no idea what fireflies [TS]

  because i'm not a big comic book guy and [TS]

  I game and I guess I know who these [TS]

  people are right but if you haven't [TS]

  watched you know a short 13 episodes [TS]

  season of television or something to [TS]

  familiarize with you with these [TS]

  characters then the ensemble structure [TS]

  of a movie really hurts the the chances [TS]

  of the movie really landing with the [TS]

  audience in terms of like I was serious [TS]

  movie and I really connect with these [TS]

  characters because you just don't have [TS]

  enough screen time to give to each one [TS]

  of them so Joss is the king of trying to [TS]

  give everyone a little moment but you [TS]

  know the bottom line is it's like a [TS]

  two-and-a-half-hour movie and there's a [TS]

  lot of characters and there's a lot of [TS]

  moving parts and can you really get [TS]

  seven satisfying story arcs plus by the [TS]

  way the overall story arc and you know [TS]

  just this just too many moving parts you [TS]

  don't have time you don't have the [TS]

  screen time to develop these guys so if [TS]

  you if there's a backstory that you buy [TS]

  into or if you've seen all the other [TS]

  movies or whatever then at least you're [TS]

  coming in with something but I saw a [TS]

  couple of the other movies or whatever I [TS]

  but i do i'm not particularly familiar [TS]

  with these characters so all i had to go [TS]

  on was the the stuff that you ride it so [TS]

  it was it was I think I went in [TS]

  expecting it to be a real uphill battle [TS]

  for him to be able to have these many [TS]

  moving pieces in a movie be successful [TS]

  in any way I I came out of it thinking [TS]

  that he did as well as i could imagine [TS]

  he could do to connect to someone like [TS]

  me I and I guess that one coming out of [TS]

  the movie i guess i decided that the [TS]

  thing that really makes me hate a movie [TS]

  is not so much stupid plot in the [TS]

  superhero movie but like bad writing and [TS]

  bad acting and bad choices and so [TS]

  basically if you can if you have ok [TS]

  writing it's not embarrassingly bad and [TS]

  it's clever in some way I'm going to [TS]

  forgive a lot so that's what I came out [TS]

  of this movie I was like Frances it's a [TS]

  silly superhero movie but it didn't like [TS]

  offend me i didn't come out of it saying [TS]

  all that was just terrible and i can't [TS]

  believe i spend my money and I'm like [TS]

  it's mine was fun like and I don't think [TS]

  that's the reaction a lot of people are [TS]

  having and I also imagine maybe if I had [TS]

  seen this as a younger child that would [TS]

  have allowed being excited me more but I [TS]

  came out of it [TS]

  smiling and then immediately for [TS]

  everything about the movie i would watch [TS]

  the 13-episode [TS]

  Joss Whedon's Avengers TV series but it [TS]

  would have been canceled [TS]

  yeah right after after episode 10 I mean [TS]

  they would have in order to Arizona [TS]

  order would have been in 1974 I don't [TS]

  know I've seen all the movies that were [TS]

  in the run-up to the Avengers with the [TS]

  exception of the incredible hulk which [TS]

  was the edward norton and he was [TS]

  replaced by mark ruffalo in the [TS]

  adventures but I i saw the two Iron [TS]

  Man's and/or in captain america and you [TS]

  know I I think comic book familiarity is [TS]

  not as necessary but definitely familiar [TS]

  with those those movies that there's [TS]

  little bits little strands especially [TS]

  from Captain America that very clearly [TS]

  that which Johnson we can I think did an [TS]

  uncredited rewrite of that data that [TS]

  that drop in here i did i did see that [TS]

  1i didn't feel like because i saw that [TS]

  one and because of the Iron Man's that [TS]

  those those guys I felt like I knew what [TS]

  they were talking about a little bit [TS]

  more i rewatched all of them with my [TS]

  friend and occasional and comfortable [TS]

  panelist Tony similar before like in the [TS]

  months leading up to the Avengers and [TS]

  they actually aside from the fact that [TS]

  you know they recover recast the Hulk [TS]

  they actually hang together not that bad [TS]

  and they just I just saw this today [TS]

  there's a Time Warner that Marvel [TS]

  released there is a timeline which which [TS]

  is great because i love the section of [TS]

  it that's like Nick Fury is big week [TS]

  we're good like apparently like for the [TS]

  movies are happening at the same time [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  Agent Coulson has to hop around to like [TS]

  three different location they do [TS]

  actually weave them together and in the [TS]

  course of those movies which is [TS]

  impressive like there's even a little [TS]

  scene and iron man two at the end where [TS]

  Nick theories debriefing you know Tony [TS]

  Stark and on the tvs in the background [TS]

  they're talking about the Hulk rampaging [TS]

  over the college campus which I totally [TS]

  missed the first time around but it's [TS]

  definitely there [TS]

  it's very little subtle background thing [TS]

  Nick Fury project manager he has he has [TS]

  a Gantt chart that is really ever see [TS]

  all those displays with just wanna just [TS]

  get the holographic display technology [TS]

  on the shield helicarrier is really [TS]

  wasted on Nick Fury iphone i just my [TS]

  favorite too i don't know who made this [TS]

  week but I just laughed so hard at the [TS]

  it's a shame he'll never be able to see [TS]

  his own movie in 3d for nectar it's a [TS]

  fake or is it [TS]

  camera on is on his patch that goes [TS]

  right into his brain i could see in 40 [TS]

  he's that good he's that awesome venue [TS]

  you did you see all the movies on the [TS]

  run up to this [TS]

  yeah every single one of them and I [TS]

  thought it was i I thought the Avengers [TS]

  was it was a was a fine spectacle III is [TS]

  it is it a great film know is pretty [TS]

  good yeah my son loved it [TS]

  I liked it a lot I i wanted to see it [TS]

  again before we before we did this [TS]

  podcast didn't get the chance but I [TS]

  thought you know I i agree with the [TS]

  comment you know if you're if you're you [TS]

  know if you're a preteen or teenage boy [TS]

  you know if this if I were that age now [TS]

  I would be head over heels for this for [TS]

  the Avengers I thought I thought it [TS]

  worked well i mean i thought it was [TS]

  delivered everything that you wanted it [TS]

  was favorite fairly smart about it and [TS]

  you know he had you had your great [TS]

  fights and you had some you had some [TS]

  decent dialogue my only real complaint [TS]

  about it was I thought I thought Hawkeye [TS]

  and BlackWidow were sort of [TS]

  underdeveloped in the Hawkeye in [TS]

  particular was a laser-like are you know [TS]

  he's possessed for most of the Yeah Yeah [TS]

  right it's tough it's tough when you're [TS]

  the two humans in the group full of [TS]

  superheroes right like after the world's [TS]

  best assassins but like it's a little [TS]

  rough but that's okay because the earth [TS]

  is being invaded by aliens who can be [TS]

  taken down by a guy with a bow and arrow [TS]

  set and a woman with a common [TS]

  commercially available handgun recover [TS]

  who two handguns Andy come on [TS]

  oh wait a minute wait a minute there [TS]

  were cops there too if only they'd [TS]

  started firing into the air maybe they [TS]

  could end this in about two minutes [TS]

  instead of the 20 minutes it took to [TS]

  defeat the entire alien invasion no skin [TS]

  tight outfits and you're forgetting no [TS]

  skin tight outfits [TS]

  she's a much better shot than those cops [TS]

  she ancient shield can create a [TS]

  Helicarrier of 800 million tons that can [TS]

  hover and 3d holographic technology they [TS]

  cannot develop a zipper that can stay up [TS]

  to the neckline of a female recruit they [TS]

  can they don't want to [TS]

  ah the researchers the zipper that stays [TS]

  open just the right amount that's where [TS]

  the hard for sure you can make a zipper [TS]

  the state totally upwards over the falls [TS]

  down but can you [TS]

  take one that stays in the exact right [TS]

  position that's the secret [TS]

  I think they did a nice job with her in [TS]

  that opening scene with her though I [TS]

  mean I don't know I enjoyed that the [TS]

  scene where she's being interrogated was [TS]

  a very joss whedon scene and then she [TS]

  disappeared for the rest of the movie [TS]

  yeah I mean well that's that again you [TS]

  have to divvy up this time between six [TS]

  different characters so you know [TS]

  everybody got a little bit of time but [TS]

  but there was still another program I've [TS]

  had a big problem with the Black Widow [TS]

  because she had a common malady and [TS]

  action movies she had invulnerable [TS]

  female action hero syndrome where we [TS]

  can't really care a damn about this [TS]

  character because it's impossible to [TS]

  land a punch on her it's impossible for [TS]

  the screenwriter to have her show any [TS]

  amount of vulnerability or who put any [TS]

  challenge before her that she isn't [TS]

  forty percent over qualified to handle [TS]

  all on around anything about ellen [TS]

  ripley is one of the remains is the [TS]

  greatest female action hero action [TS]

  character in movies because she keeps [TS]

  getting the the snot kicked out of her [TS]

  but Kim becoming back and surrounding it [TS]

  she keeps having problems which he then [TS]

  has to solve black widow was melba toast [TS]

  just dry and uninteresting because as [TS]

  you know how long that fight sequence [TS]

  with Hawkeye go did ha Kyle and one [TS]

  single punch [TS]

  was there any sort of action ever taken [TS]

  against her that she had to take the [TS]

  blow or in any way get hurt or or [TS]

  affected that scene where she's like [TS]

  questioning loci that here i'm thinking [TS]

  of his early movie so I still have a lot [TS]

  of faith in it but in this flick that [TS]

  could actually turn out to be pretty [TS]

  good at home and look he's really [TS]

  getting into her head and the great this [TS]

  is where we actually find her to be [TS]

  developed as a real characters know it [TS]

  turns out that she was just playing him [TS]

  all along to get the information that [TS]

  she needed again she's absolutely [TS]

  invulnerable we cannot risk of creating [TS]

  a character who that's female and real [TS]

  at the same time she's terrified when [TS]

  the Hulk appears no i mean that that is [TS]

  she is she is kinda freaked out and and [TS]

  and extremely vulnerable in those scenes [TS]

  and we keep cutting nonsensically though [TS]

  I was like that that didn't ring true to [TS]

  me because like out now she's going to [TS]

  be scared but the Hang she's scared of [TS]

  this is the same woman that was totally [TS]

  not scared and for the rest of the movie [TS]

  and much more dangerous situation so [TS]

  he's turning green and my foot is [TS]

  trapped and I'm terrified to make sense [TS]

  to me I assume the reason for that is [TS]

  that there really [TS]

  try to get across the fact that the Hulk [TS]

  is not the hottest air is supposed to be [TS]

  terrifying [TS]

  he can do anything on control movement [TS]

  ok but if it again this is this blaze [TS]

  the incompetents of the screenplay when [TS]

  it the screenplay needs the hope to be [TS]

  an unstoppable uncontrollable killing [TS]

  machine [TS]

  he's on the Helicarrier now he's gonna [TS]

  tear the whole place apart because he [TS]

  has no focus and direction he's just [TS]

  wanting destruction just as the Hulk is [TS]

  defined as in a classical way but the [TS]

  end of the movie we need the Hulk to not [TS]

  to simply say oh I'm gonna start beating [TS]

  the crap out of these colorful humans [TS]

  that are right next to me [TS]

  we need him to actually just attack the [TS]

  aliens and do things that are actually [TS]

  intelligent for the hope to do now [TS]

  that's when the Hulk is not a random our [TS]

  engine of destruction The Hulk is [TS]

  actually controlled somehow by intellect [TS]

  and then what was that thing about the [TS]

  very end after after this whole build-up [TS]

  about how Bruce Banner can just barely [TS]

  key he's training himself to keep the [TS]

  whole control and not let him out [TS]

  turns out that he could have done that [TS]

  anytime he wanted in a very willful [TS]

  fashion and i'm not saying this [TS]

  necessarily makes absolutely no sense in [TS]

  context for the character but this is a [TS]

  clear case of the screenwriter deciding [TS]

  i want that I don't care this is [TS]

  completely consistent with everything [TS]

  we've been telling the audience all [TS]

  along [TS]

  at this point we're running out of [TS]

  screen time we need the whole to do with [TS]

  a screenwriter wants me to do and [TS]

  therefore i'm going to redefine the [TS]

  whole to do whatever I wanted to do so I [TS]

  don't see what I'm not I'm not clear on [TS]

  what you're arguing there because the [TS]

  whole idea is that he's keeping the [TS]

  whole can check and at the end he [TS]

  deploys the whole key has no problem [TS]

  letting the Hulk out his problem is [TS]

  keeping the Hulk in well he has control [TS]

  over in the end the whole threat of the [TS]

  Hulk on the Helicarrier was that it when [TS]

  the when the Hulk got out of committee [TS]

  got out on the Helicarrier did the Hulk [TS]

  say oh wait a minute i'm here among [TS]

  friends I should basically sit here [TS]

  quietly or at least go after this [TS]

  low-key guy that everybody so upset [TS]

  about [TS]

  now he was wanted engine of destruction [TS]

  who almost killed a fellow team member [TS]

  at the end of the movie did he just [TS]

  randomly start punching buildings that [TS]

  he randomly attack other members of the [TS]

  Avengers no he only went after the [TS]

  aliens and also is the the scenes were [TS]

  really shot as though the Hulk at focus [TS]

  and the photo hope the whole kind of [TS]

  purpose towards one target and not the [TS]

  there you can simply define him as a [TS]

  random engine of destruction when you [TS]

  need another threat on the Helicarrier [TS]

  and then simply redefined him when you [TS]

  just needed someone is going to solve [TS]

  this again these incredibly intimidating [TS]

  aliens who can be shot by a 9-millimeter [TS]

  gun and brought completely down about [TS]

  that was his character arc but the ark [TS]

  was made up of two points services you [TS]

  ended up with with with note with no [TS]

  line in between [TS]

  hey wait he had a nice pep talk he had a [TS]

  nice pep talk from that janitor that's [TS]

  on crashed into a building [TS]

  yeah like it felt like there was seven [TS]

  scenes involving the hook that were [TS]

  omitted from the movie and like I see [TS]

  the character arc they would have liked [TS]

  to have drama the just I guess there [TS]

  just wasn't time to put in so you gotta [TS]

  establish one thing up front and then at [TS]

  the end the situation resolved then [TS]

  there's no middle process by which she [TS]

  resolved the situation like you i can [TS]

  fill in the blanks myself by saying like [TS]

  okay [TS]

  when the hell comes upon him in a rage [TS]

  he can't control it because it's like an [TS]

  extension of whatever he was feeling at [TS]

  the time you became the Hulk but if you [TS]

  purposely becomes the Hulk the Hulk [TS]

  inherits that purpose and like I can [TS]

  manufacture stuff but the point that [TS]

  wasn't in the movie was that all thats [TS]

  all in my head I i have to have to admit [TS]

  i was listening and trying to speak but [TS]

  for the first 10 or 15 minutes but now [TS]

  all I was hearing was you know it wasn't [TS]

  as crappy everyone thought it was going [TS]

  to be really crappy it was only mediocre [TS]

  i didn't i didn't totally hate it I did [TS]

  I thought I thought that before for a [TS]

  comic book movie where we don't expect a [TS]

  good plot if you don't want if you don't [TS]

  think I movie needs a plot you know it's [TS]

  actually you can actually get it down [TS]

  your throat okay and this it's it's like [TS]

  going to a seafood restaurant thing you [TS]

  know what two dollar ninety-nine cent [TS]

  baked lamb platter [TS]

  I really thought I'd be puking my guts [TS]

  out for three days after instead it was [TS]

  a bland tasteless nutritionist meal that [TS]

  i actually was able to eat my body [TS]

  simple process [TS]

  well did you see the spider man did you [TS]

  see the spider-man trailer though [TS]

  speaking of that I think right you know [TS]

  let's compare that to how the movie that [TS]

  you imagine the new spider-man will be [TS]

  compared to the Avengers like you know [TS]

  it is kind of like it is damning with [TS]

  faint praise is to say that it wasn't [TS]

  you know that we didn't have a grand [TS]

  vacations anyone so terrible but I think [TS]

  expectations do affect how much you [TS]

  enjoy a movie not so much the how good [TS]

  the movie actually is but it affects how [TS]

  much you in [TS]

  enjoy it so if you go in if you go in [TS]

  expecting dumb entertainment and you get [TS]

  dumb entertainment you be coming out [TS]

  feeling satisfied it doesn't change the [TS]

  quality of the movie like certainly if [TS]

  you asked everyone on this panel make [TS]

  your list of your top 500 movies the [TS]

  avengers probably wouldn't be on it [TS]

  right but it really does depend on how [TS]

  you go in and like for example the [TS]

  spider-man movie I don't think there's [TS]

  any way I could watch that and not come [TS]

  out being angry about it just looks [TS]

  terrible to me [TS]

  yeah everyone's this one I managed to go [TS]

  in and say I don't expect much what I [TS]

  got was a few chuckles got to see some [TS]

  things blow up and then I left no no [TS]

  this is the starting line for the movie [TS]

  begins when the opening credits start [TS]

  with the first frame of actual movie [TS]

  whatever you expected and I i do agree [TS]

  that you go in with certain expectations [TS]

  i gotta admit that my expectations for [TS]

  the first christopher nolan batman movie [TS]

  i love Christopher Nolan I expected it [TS]

  to be a certain minimal level of good i [TS]

  wasn't expecting it to be fantastic but [TS]

  by frame one of that movie that movie [TS]

  was on its own it's my responsibility as [TS]

  a credible film viewer to simply stop [TS]

  thinking about what i expected it to be [TS]

  and start seeing it as what it actually [TS]

  was [TS]

  I was incredible film critics sure but [TS]

  as a viewer no fewer as of you you don't [TS]

  you don't have a readout every I don't [TS]

  really think that you can make it [TS]

  anybody can make a dress sensible [TS]

  argument about what they liked her [TS]

  didn't like about the movie based on [TS]

  what they thought the movie was going to [TS]

  be the filmmakers not responsible for [TS]

  what you thought was going to be their [TS]

  only responsible for what had what they [TS]

  actually put on the screen that's the [TS]

  only thing that I'm judging joss whedon [TS]

  on what was actually on the screen was [TS]

  actually on the screen was again it [TS]

  wasn't an awful movie it was just your [TS]

  basic transformers two style on solano [TS]

  crashing oh I think you need to watch [TS]

  transformers two again not but there was [TS]

  no plot no characterization just [TS]

  flashing lights that lasted for two and [TS]

  a half hours [TS]

  oh i don't iike real artist did not make [TS]

  me even smile once i was checking my was [TS]

  checking my watch for the last 40 [TS]

  minutes of this movie it was that I was [TS]

  honestly surprised I wasn't already home [TS]

  I mean saying that there's no character [TS]

  development in the Avengers is I think I [TS]

  think overstating the case massively [TS]

  because okay you know what would happen [TS]

  with this captain america think about [TS]

  Black Widow I mean if you what does what [TS]

  does Hawkeye want and not to be in this [TS]

  movie Hawkeye was the worst part of the [TS]

  moment [TS]

  to be possessed i'm saying i don't think [TS]

  we need to necessarily know what the [TS]

  every single character thinks about [TS]

  every other character again it's a [TS]

  two-and-a-half-hour movie with seven men [TS]

  you know characters you can basically [TS]

  hold their own exactly you you have so [TS]

  much time to develop these things you [TS]

  can develop these things not just within [TS]

  and not with an entire scene you can [TS]

  develop these these relationship with [TS]

  one look okay there's just no real [TS]

  conflict the the nose I'm sorry no [TS]

  serious conflict between these people [TS]

  other than ok your captain america [TS]

  you're the old guy I'm iron man I'm the [TS]

  new guy rear ever go wait now we got a [TS]

  common enemy now let's go find the [TS]

  common enemy ever ver I I think you're [TS]

  being completely unfair and I lighting [TS]

  is the Transformers i think is actually [TS]

  I was going to say I i think our I think [TS]

  the reason that this movie has been [TS]

  popular and has resonated with audiences [TS]

  and that that it it maintained so much [TS]

  of its box office between the first and [TS]

  second week is that our blockbuster [TS]

  expectations and yeah and i will use [TS]

  that word expectations are so low that [TS]

  so many of these movies are so terrible [TS]

  and transformers is a great example that [TS]

  makes a lot of money but you know having [TS]

  seen a couple of those movies where they [TS]

  are they are so bad they have no [TS]

  redeeming value and on it on such [TS]

  another level of terribleness you know I [TS]

  this is not a perfect movie also i'm [TS]

  very confused why you are ripping into [TS]

  this movie to a degree and yet you said [TS]

  you gave it like a b-minus like a so is [TS]

  it is it a dr is it a be right because [TS]

  in my mind i agree with you that this is [TS]

  a be kind of movie it is not a fantastic [TS]

  movie but the dialogue is funny i think [TS]

  there is interesting character [TS]

  interaction i think the whole interplay [TS]

  between Tony Stark and and banner is a [TS]

  really interesting that he tested me off [TS]

  he kind of offers from a job and they [TS]

  drive off at the end there's some [TS]

  interest he's the only one Tony Stark is [TS]

  the only one who trusts that banner is [TS]

  actually going to come back and not run [TS]

  away it and that's not a huge story arc [TS]

  but there are little bits that that pull [TS]

  you through those characters it you know [TS]

  and I found it that the action was [TS]

  following below in a way that the [TS]

  Transformers movies are our i would say [TS]

  incompetently directed where you can't [TS]

  you actually don't even know where you [TS]

  are what you're seeing and although the [TS]

  plot is a silly plot in many ways I just [TS]

  I for me this movie succeeds a [TS]

  in so many different ways given the [TS]

  given the Givens of this film which is [TS]

  you've gotta stuff seven you know seven [TS]

  superheroes in it and and you have no [TS]

  choice in the matter [TS]

  and I realized that that's knowing that [TS]

  there's a you know Marvel cabal but [TS]

  saying just Whedon yeah you know [TS]

  here here's your bag of stuff make a [TS]

  movie out of this you know we don't care [TS]

  what you do but but this is all you get [TS]

  and so you know so i think the [TS]

  Transformers comparison is really unfair [TS]

  i think well you can say that this movie [TS]

  isn't it isn't far from perfect without [TS]

  saying that it is a a a soulless by [TS]

  metal part III found the weak part of [TS]

  the with the tie I without intending to [TS]

  a my dark right at that one hole in your [TS]

  armor that went right to your heart and [TS]

  I apologize for that the low blow LOL [TS]

  blow transformers I I stand by that but [TS]

  I apologize for framing writer named but [TS]

  there's your here's why I said it was a [TS]

  b-minus movie and this is this is [TS]

  something that I actually liked about [TS]

  the movie I can easily imagine i imagine [TS]

  iron man 3 I imagine captain america too [TS]

  i imagine Thor to imagine an origin [TS]

  movie for Black Widow and Hawkeye and [TS]

  and I imagine the next attempt at Marvel [TS]

  to reboot and create a whole franchise [TS]

  and I think iron man 3 get lucky okay [TS]

  we'll get back look into expectations [TS]

  here just only as a as a mathematical [TS]

  thing i'm expecting iron man 3 to have [TS]

  26 minutes of good stuff in it I'm [TS]

  expecting captain america to have maybe [TS]

  18 minutes with a good stuff in it and [TS]

  so on and so on and so on and I feel so [TS]

  this is two-and-a-half this like sort of [TS]

  two-and-a-half-hour montage of only the [TS]

  good parts of all these five movies that [TS]

  are probably going to get made but [TS]

  you're probably not to be terribly [TS]

  interested in seeing and also when I [TS]

  spend my my 11 bucks or that my case [TS]

  eight bucks for matinee together and I [TS]

  it's okay to be entertained by flashing [TS]

  lights good smell good smashy-smashy [TS]

  really great action sequences and there [TS]

  are some really fantastic action [TS]

  sequences here and I think that does [TS]

  deliver on that on that way I think that [TS]

  Roger Ebert really delivered the money [TS]

  quote by saying that is exactly the [TS]

  superhero movie that superhero fans want [TS]

  it is not the superhero movie that that [TS]

  superhero fan [TS]

  just deserve so decent enough that is [TS]

  not good enough though is negative and [TS]

  it's good enough for be- if you're about [TS]

  it if and I'm not responsible for what [TS]

  other people think about this movie if [TS]

  you--if anyway if everybody else thought [TS]

  that was a really good solid effort [TS]

  that's fine i'm not challenging that I'm [TS]

  only stating my own personal opinion my [TS]

  fundamental problems with it are that I [TS]

  really do see basic story structure [TS]

  flaws with it because you start off with [TS]

  a problem of every single really great [TS]

  action movie you're always moving [TS]

  towards one goal there could be false [TS]

  Dunn's towards that goal [TS]

  I mean Ellen Ripley is her goal is to [TS]

  get herself and Newt off of that off of [TS]

  the planet into safety and you think [TS]

  that ok good she's gonna make it before [TS]

  the self-destruct sequence ends all she [TS]

  has to do is cross over here and get the [TS]

  elevator [TS]

  holy crap she's in the alien Queens next [TS]

  we've got a whole new movie now but but [TS]

  the goal is still the same goal with [TS]

  this one [TS]

  oh my god we got it low key is this [TS]

  really incredible badass villain at [TS]

  least in the first third of the movie we [TS]

  gotta stop him from opening this portal [TS]

  i'll bring this massive invasion flee [TS]

  away he we could we screwed up okay [TS]

  we've got to fight off these massive [TS]

  invasion [TS]

  oh wait no we have to we have to we have [TS]

  to stop this nuclear missile that [TS]

  somehow been fired for some reason from [TS]

  hitting midtown Manhattan you can't keep [TS]

  changing the end this definition of your [TS]

  movie and they've done it three times [TS]

  the other thing is that there's the [TS]

  entire I got the talk about how [TS]

  wonderful love these action sequences [TS]

  are the whole Helicarrier in peril [TS]

  sequence fantastic start to finish but [TS]

  then after it of course there's that's [TS]

  the at the end of the sequence in any [TS]

  movies like now let's give 10 minutes of [TS]

  exposition scenes let the audience catch [TS]

  their breath so I'm catching my breath I [TS]

  realized that wow that entire scene was [TS]

  absolutely pointless we could cut that [TS]

  entire sequence and so long sequence out [TS]

  of the movie [TS]

  collapse the work begins and ends and [TS]

  cut then been pasted those two ends of [TS]

  the movie together the movie would not [TS]

  be affected there was no reason for that [TS]

  seem to exist except to have this big [TS]

  action sequence in which the Helicarrier [TS]

  is imperil you don't think there's a [TS]

  sequence in there to actually get the [TS]

  people to work together because I [TS]

  thought that was for me the big part of [TS]

  that point was that the you know we had [TS]

  people who are at each other's throats [TS]

  before that and actually found a point [TS]

  with [TS]

  aight we need to work together in order [TS]

  to actually get out of this Jam before [TS]

  we all buy it there's no there's already [TS]

  sequence before that and after that does [TS]

  that [TS]

  what annoyed me is that why they are [TS]

  included the the script was not agile [TS]

  enough to really explain what loki was [TS]

  doing aboard the Helicarrier there's [TS]

  something there's some bits of dialogue [TS]

  that indicate that Loki's on the [TS]

  Helicarrier because he got full of [TS]

  himself and full of ego and he didn't [TS]

  realize that he was in danger of being [TS]

  captured [TS]

  there's no other data log that dedicated [TS]

  that no this is part of his plan so that [TS]

  he could be on the Helicarrier [TS]

  influencing events and then there'd be a [TS]

  big barrel the moment that he could [TS]

  incite from inside the Helicarrier at [TS]

  the end i will again in that moment [TS]

  after those moments after the scene i'm [TS]

  thinking there really is no reason for [TS]

  low key to put himself on board the [TS]

  Helicarrier and if i'm confused as to [TS]

  why that whole sequence existed or while [TS]

  okie wound up on board that way why he [TS]

  decided to stick around like that that's [TS]

  got iphone as though i'm a careful and a [TS]

  viewer that that's the fault of the [TS]

  screenplay I'm well I'm willing to stick [TS]

  my neck out and say that no it's not [TS]

  because i wasn't paying attention it was [TS]

  because I think that's a flaw in the [TS]

  screenplay and I all I won't go to other [TS]

  things that I think are just basically [TS]

  wrong with the way this movie is [TS]

  structured but it's just such [TS]

  fundamental problems that i think would [TS]

  have been eliminated and the [TS]

  conceptually speaking would've been [TS]

  eliminated and up in a preliminary draft [TS]

  the screenplay where you're looking at [TS]

  that big wall of notecards saying oh [TS]

  great sequence great sequence great [TS]

  sequence for a sequence you have [TS]

  unfortunately this is not necessary we [TS]

  can't really justify how that happens so [TS]

  either have to create that justification [TS]

  or if you remove these scenes [TS]

  that's why I was saying that I felt it [TS]

  was a really great story board but with [TS]

  no story so so John siracusa I'd like to [TS]

  congratulate you you are not the most [TS]

  negative person on the podcast this one [TS]

  is one here let's book is like it [TS]

  because there's only one thing that I [TS]

  really disagree with andy about like [TS]

  everything he said that that's bad about [TS]

  the movies right different things that [TS]

  are bad about the movie that the breath [TS]

  where I part ways with them i think is [TS]

  is the idea that I guess we're doing two [TS]

  different things here i would give this [TS]

  movie a C or a c-minus [TS]

  ah but I would give my experience of [TS]

  watching the movie plus it and I'm [TS]

  separating like how good is this movie [TS]

  in terms of did you make a good movie [TS]

  versus how much that i enjoy when we [TS]

  we've all enjoyed Tara [TS]

  the movies sometimes you can enjoy them [TS]

  because they're terrible and part of my [TS]

  enjoyment of this was because like I'm [TS]

  enjoying the sloppiness the silliness of [TS]

  a put these flaws that he's pointing out [TS]

  of the movie are real like everything he [TS]

  said about why the heck is lucky there [TS]

  and it's confusing and there's lots of [TS]

  flabby part of the end with a flying [TS]

  around with these aliens who we don't [TS]

  care about and it's like it just yet but [TS]

  but my experience of watching movies [TS]

  about getting about with expectations [TS]

  like I'm paying money to be entertained [TS]

  for a short period of time and I'm able [TS]

  to separate how good a movie is it [TS]

  versus how much should I enjoy my night [TS]

  out going to watch this movie you know [TS]

  what I mean I and so everything that he [TS]

  said about the movie i agree without hit [TS]

  here's my my attempt to get them again [TS]

  inside and his head is that I know I [TS]

  happen to know that Andy does read comic [TS]

  books and probably from his perspective [TS]

  and he knows these characters probably [TS]

  thinks they deserved a lot better than [TS]

  they got and I can relate to that like [TS]

  where you know there's a property that [TS]

  you take seriously or derive great [TS]

  enjoyment of and so make some sloppy [TS]

  movie out of it and you get angry about [TS]

  it because you're like you know those [TS]

  Ted though these guys like they don't [TS]

  deserve to be in a stupid sloppy movie [TS]

  it's as if like for example someone took [TS]

  out a lord of the rings and made some [TS]

  silly schlocky summer action movie we're [TS]

  going to get the ring but I mean [TS]

  somebody argue that they actually did [TS]

  that but like you know I'm gonna pick [TS]

  another property that you know and you [TS]

  know part of it i would be or you know [TS]

  or the Star Wars prequels for that [TS]

  matter like there's some property that [TS]

  you feel like deserves respect like for [TS]

  example if you're big you're big Batman [TS]

  fan and you go to Batman Begins you're [TS]

  like yeah that's that's what you should [TS]

  be doing with that man but if you go to [TS]

  batman robin and someone comes out of [TS]

  Batman Robin goes not expected to be [TS]

  crapping it was and I enjoyed myself you [TS]

  get mad at that person was like what do [TS]

  you mean to enjoy Batman and Robin don't [TS]

  they understand the true nature of the [TS]

  dark knight and you I i can address that [TS]

  i'm reminded of something that Jerry [TS]

  Seinfeld used to say when people ask you [TS]

  all to argue get like lots of fans of [TS]

  the Seinfeld show to your stand-up act [TS]

  and that does that help them like on [TS]

  your side and he said that gets me on my [TS]

  side for the first five minutes but [TS]

  after that i'm totally on my own there [TS]

  they become like a normal audience again [TS]

  and i have to their i I've seen like for [TS]

  my saw the watchman movie they had me [TS]

  for the first well that's probably bad [TS]

  example because the first scene 5 [TS]

  minutes is [TS]

  it's just a as a mini-movie in and of [TS]

  itself is a wonderful wonderful piece of [TS]

  art but what I'm getting at is that I [TS]

  didn't take very long before I sort of [TS]

  drop away everything that I know about [TS]

  comics and everything that I'm hoping [TS]

  this to be I'm not I'm not 12 years old [TS]

  and I think oh my god it's Russia ash [TS]

  and he's walking and talking this is [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  it'sit's it really does a go a different [TS]

  way [TS]

  the only I'll say one thing my only real [TS]

  comic book geek reaction to this whole [TS]

  movie was I'll really like samuel l [TS]

  jackson as Nick Fury because this is the [TS]

  first time in any Marvel related [TS]

  anything that I've seen Nick Fury look [TS]

  like samuel l jackson read it [TS]

  immediately think what a piece of crap [TS]

  this lazy artist who didn't want to draw [TS]

  a head of invested espionage agency and [TS]

  actually engage the reader into thinking [TS]

  of investing this character i know i [TS]

  know this famous movie character that [TS]

  looks like a badass [TS]

  I know if I draw this character to look [TS]

  exactly like him [TS]

  Ellen automatically think of him as a [TS]

  badass i don't have to actually write [TS]

  anything this is awesome [TS]

  so those those really the beginning of [TS]

  the end the only bit of it where I had [TS]

  my comic book reader brain engage in [TS]

  that I i spent the entire two-and-a-half [TS]

  move two and a half hours this movie as [TS]

  a movie viewer well i kinda want to go [TS]

  back to something and he said about food [TS]

  you know the the the oyster plates in [TS]

  the empty calories in the end and you go [TS]

  to a place you go to I don't know their [TS]

  name a chain think of a no applebees [TS]

  terrible terrible just did you know but [TS]

  but you know kind of what you're getting [TS]

  then you also know you also know that if [TS]

  you're going to a a place like any sort [TS]

  of upscale restaurant you just you just [TS]

  you just know and so with respect to the [TS]

  with respect to this film as a film that [TS]

  you know what you expect from from the [TS]

  Avengers or from any of these Marvel [TS]

  properties is spectacle that's what [TS]

  you're expecting I I never expected I [TS]

  never expect [TS]

  did I don't know Goodfellas or something [TS]

  I was thinking of me the films that I [TS]

  love I mean like birds Brazil or [TS]

  something i didn't have never expected [TS]

  anything like that from any of these [TS]

  films the only things that have come [TS]

  close to that are the the Nolan Batman [TS]

  movies maybe and one of one of your [TS]

  favorite films Jason in mind the [TS]

  incredibles but i i i went to the [TS]

  Avengers thinking this is going to be [TS]

  cool to see mid midtown Manhattan laid [TS]

  to waste it and if you don't have to [TS]

  worry about who the aliens are it's just [TS]

  going to be cool to see you know mass [TS]

  destruction done up in in beautiful CGI [TS]

  that you know the kind of thing that you [TS]

  you got every month back in the [TS]

  seventies and eighties when when I was [TS]

  you know reading The Avengers an Ironman [TS]

  and and and those books that's that's [TS]

  what i wanted and that's what I got I [TS]

  got a spectacle and and funny dialogue [TS]

  oh yeah you know for those wide [TS]

  spectacle you would have like [TS]

  transformers two but like I think name [TS]

  is complaint and and my complaint anyone [TS]

  who thinks this movie isn't a great [TS]

  movies that we didn't even get diehard [TS]

  where it's like a straight through [TS]

  action movie with some kind of like you [TS]

  can do a silly action movie and not have [TS]

  these just big gaping plot holes and [TS]

  wasted characters an uncompleted story [TS]

  arc center like it can be done [TS]

  I you know so that's not okay so cant [TS]

  cannot be done if the Givens are that [TS]

  we've set up to iron man movies a Hulk [TS]

  movie a captain america movie in a [TS]

  community you have to take these [TS]

  characters and you have to base it on [TS]

  the Avengers comic books to some degree [TS]

  and you know and we've we've set up the [TS]

  the Cosmic Cube and we set up low key [TS]

  and then edit it [TS]

  I mean so that's one of one of my [TS]

  questions and I realize it doesn't make [TS]

  the movie better or worse based on the [TS]

  degree of difficulty but I'm not [TS]

  convinced that a movie like diehard [TS]

  could possibly have come out of the the [TS]

  Givens no because you're not compared to [TS]

  die hard here you're comparing to the [TS]

  expendables right you're comparing to a [TS]

  movie that's full of like you know a [TS]

  bunch of different guys it's essentially [TS]

  a different movie diehard isn't [TS]

  an ensemble movie die hard is a one guy [TS]

  vs one bad guy movie you can you imagine [TS]

  a better movie with the same characters [TS]

  answer i can certainly imagine a better [TS]

  movie with the same characters [TS]

  constraints the other day and he pointed [TS]

  out this parts of the movie that like [TS]

  this there was flab and there's this [TS]

  part that didn't make sense and it [TS]

  doesn't it takes less time to make [TS]

  things make sense sometimes it it could [TS]

  have been fixed up right and maybe you [TS]

  could even argue that since this is a [TS]

  writer-director which we don't usually [TS]

  see in a big movie like this at this [TS]

  level that they gave him the keys now [TS]

  you could argue that he didn't have [TS]

  somebody saying you need to clear you [TS]

  need to clear this up they just sort of [TS]

  went with it and of course his shame is [TS]

  that he made a movie that made it you [TS]

  know gazillion dollars but I think you [TS]

  could argue that maybe this movie could [TS]

  have been better as certainly could have [TS]

  been better as is if some stuff was [TS]

  clearer and some character relationships [TS]

  were clear i actually think that a lot [TS]

  of Andy's complaints about like while [TS]

  okies not on the Helicarrier I think [TS]

  they actually are addressed in the movie [TS]

  I just don't think they're addressed [TS]

  clearly enough for you to notice them [TS]

  without studying it at which point you [TS]

  know you're no longer enjoy the movie [TS]

  you're studying a screenplay [TS]

  I mean again we're talking about a guy [TS]

  who specializes in TV shows so you know [TS]

  a guy who works with 13 hours of stuff [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  again I I'm and i am sure that there is [TS]

  plenty of stuff that was also cut out of [TS]

  this movie right i mean i think i heard [TS]

  him reference the fact that they had [TS]

  some stuff with the with the love [TS]

  interest from Captain America but [TS]

  decided you know that just doesn't [TS]

  doesn't fit in still doesn't everyone [TS]

  more appendage to it to attack wouldn't [TS]

  really true but but at the same time you [TS]

  know if you watch captain america right [TS]

  like you kind of find yourself wondering [TS]

  well you know that movie ends literally [TS]

  with the last line being him but you [TS]

  know that's what captain america 2 is [TS]

  for i found myself i found myself [TS]

  wondering why captain america a lot in [TS]

  this movie like why is he the hair at [TS]

  all what is he doing exactly you know [TS]

  could they have gotten a gender to pull [TS]

  that lever I I should correct myself [TS]

  there are two things that kind of put me [TS]

  back in a comic viewer mode when that [TS]

  the second thing was this i have it i [TS]

  went through this with the captain [TS]

  america movie too [TS]

  I really think that you stowed Lee [TS]

  misunderstand the character and totally [TS]

  screw up the character if you make him [TS]

  superhuman [TS]

  in any way that the the hope of what [TS]

  makes captain america such a great [TS]

  character is that all that all that that [TS]

  world war two mad science it just [TS]

  brought him to the pinnacle of human of [TS]

  human potential it didn't give him any [TS]

  still like a vulnerable guy who can't [TS]

  jump 20 feet he can't catch up to a [TS]

  speeding car he's got this really [TS]

  kick-ass or kick-ass field that's very [TS]

  very useful also very very useful that [TS]

  if he gets thrown into their into the [TS]

  character cable people go into [TS]

  hibernation you can revive them also [TS]

  very useful but every time there was a [TS]

  God so he's punching through the [TS]

  punching bag and I was just lifting the [TS]

  new one up with one hand [TS]

  okay but that's not something that I [TS]

  faulted the movie for but i did i just [TS]

  had to correct that something earlier [TS]

  but that is this is another really [TS]

  important point that I they also feel [TS]

  like nice we made I don't really demand [TS]

  even that a movie be perfect and have no [TS]

  potholes no more than I demand that a [TS]

  magician onstage never palma card and [TS]

  never never [TS]

  the this never would never point the [TS]

  actor if I'm actually looking at his [TS]

  left hand I can't i can actually see him [TS]

  doing the move that makes the trick work [TS]

  early early in the two in the trick [TS]

  though the true magic is making sure [TS]

  you're not looking at that hand to see [TS]

  what the floor see like the giveaway for [TS]

  a great movie i have to like a FYI i [TS]

  didn't understand the usual suspects the [TS]

  first time I watched it but man it was [TS]

  so engaging I wanted to watch the second [TS]

  and third and four top fourth time there [TS]

  are other movies where they're just huge [TS]

  plot holes that didn't even occur to me [TS]

  until the second or third or fourth time [TS]

  I watched it I didn't want them four [TS]

  times because because I'm an obsessed [TS]

  fan it's because man is such a good [TS]

  movie i want to see it again so i added [TS]

  to the list of crimes in the Avengers is [TS]

  that it just wasn't a good enough movie [TS]

  that I didn't notice all the things that [TS]

  were wrong with it the first time I [TS]

  honestly I almost it's I admitted that I [TS]

  felt as though I i was home from this [TS]

  movie about 30 minutes before it ended [TS]

  because i was just about as i was bored [TS]

  about halfway through about 20 minutes [TS]

  or 30 minutes after that I was actually [TS]

  starting to laugh at some of the [TS]

  absurdities are seeing on the screen it [TS]

  was again a good move a good movie hides [TS]

  its flaws by just being so cap [TS]

  debating and bring you into this world [TS]

  so much that you don't even you you're [TS]

  just being the magician's telling you [TS]

  don't look at my left hand why would you [TS]

  want to look at my left hand there's [TS]

  nothing interesting happening my left [TS]

  and you want to be looking at my right [TS]

  hand and Sweden was absolutely unable to [TS]

  do that for two-and-a-half hours maybe I [TS]

  got hot i'd buy this movie that because [TS]

  i felt like i was totally immersed in it [TS]

  you can pick up on a lot of these things [TS]

  and united we can talk about the [TS]

  different different expectations and [TS]

  different you know perceptions of it but [TS]

  you know I and their stuff you bring up [TS]

  now and you're right you're absolutely [TS]

  valid points and issues to be made there [TS]

  i guess for me it comes down to didn't [TS]

  matter to me in terms of coming out that [TS]

  movie and feeling like I enjoyed it i [TS]

  mean and you can draw a line and say [TS]

  there are movies you know should we [TS]

  expect all movies to be you know [TS]

  critically excellent as well as [TS]

  enjoyable or can we you know judge these [TS]

  things on different scales I mean as [TS]

  John pointed out i think you know [TS]

  something like die hard or you know [TS]

  something like that man begins yeah I [TS]

  think this stuff is crosses over a [TS]

  little bit they can go from being you [TS]

  know can be both enjoyable and [TS]

  critically excellent but at the same [TS]

  time you know if you come out of the [TS]

  movie in feel like you know hey I [TS]

  enjoyed that two-and-a-half hours and [TS]

  then doesn't matter if the plot is [TS]

  really nonsensical that's let that stuff [TS]

  that's definitely something if you come [TS]

  out thinking a great experience that's [TS]

  in that is really the the whole point [TS]

  also I believe that it's not necessary [TS]

  that anyone type of movie or anyone [TS]

  movie is better than the rest [TS]

  I feel as though there is a letter [TS]

  regardless of how you get to the end [TS]

  credits there are some movies that just [TS]

  achieve a flawless victory and to say [TS]

  that [TS]

  raiders of the lost ark is not as good a [TS]

  movie as the third man innocent whether [TS]

  or not as good movies yojimbo or not as [TS]

  good movie as Annie Hall because they're [TS]

  totally different movies that style that [TS]

  I don't think that makes any sense [TS]

  whatsoever [TS]

  the point is that when you get to that [TS]

  end of the movie did you have just [TS]

  there's there's some ways that don't [TS]

  just satisfy you with by the time I got [TS]

  to the I felt as though by the time i [TS]

  left the theater I got my eleven dollars [TS]

  worth [TS]

  there's somebody that really go beyond [TS]

  that and they just stick with you [TS]

  I mean that there's there's there's a [TS]

  scene in the abyss that I probably think [TS]

  about at least once a month since the [TS]

  first time I saw that movie [TS]

  we're not gonna get we you know John and [TS]

  I can get four hours out of any Star [TS]

  Wars movie we're probably not here for [TS]

  hours and have adventures discussion [TS]

  absolutely on the rate we're going it's [TS]

  so so why would I didn't want to say you [TS]

  know a movies and I don't think this is [TS]

  the case with windy and the Avengers [TS]

  movies hit you in different ways i have [TS]

  had movies that I've seen in certain [TS]

  circumstances where it's at home or in a [TS]

  theater that have hit me perfectly and [TS]

  I've enjoyed the experience so much and [TS]

  i watch it back later and I realized [TS]

  that it's got flaws and it is the magic [TS]

  is gone and I've also had movies that [TS]

  everybody liked that I hated and I've [TS]

  revisited later and gone [TS]

  oh this is so bad you know and and so I [TS]

  think sometimes it is about you know [TS]

  your whether it's the point of view and [TS]

  you can escape hype either you know that [TS]

  you don't ever see a movie out of any [TS]

  context of it and so you know for me I [TS]

  went in having heard the good reviews [TS]

  and having seen the other movies i [TS]

  enjoyed the movie although I I could [TS]

  list flaws that i found while I was [TS]

  sitting there including I actually think [TS]

  that the last part III really enjoyed [TS]

  the last half III thought the first half [TS]

  the building that they did that a was [TS]

  was too slow I i dislike the first 45 [TS]

  minutes but I came out having had a [TS]

  great time and and actually wanting to [TS]

  see it again which is completely opposed [TS]

  to andy's reaction to it and I think [TS]

  that's interesting because I don't think [TS]

  uh on the details of [TS]

  criticism of the flaws of the movie [TS]

  where that far apart there are the [TS]

  Transformers business is beyond the pale [TS]

  but other than that but uh and yet right [TS]

  and yet yet Andy is walking away with a [TS]

  very different set of feelings about it [TS]

  then that I was and I you know I i I'm [TS]

  not a gigantic lifelong Avengers fan [TS]

  I've seen the other Marvel movies and [TS]

  some of them are good and some are ok [TS]

  and yet I I came out and I do love Joss [TS]

  Whedon's work except for dollhouse which [TS]

  I thought was terrible but um I you know [TS]

  I enjoyed it and I would see it and [TS]

  would see it again and I haven't seen a [TS]

  movie twice in the theater since the JJ [TS]

  Abrams Star Trek movie actually it's [TS]

  been it's been awhile and i would go see [TS]

  this movie again because i did enjoy it [TS]

  so I I you know I think and then dan I [TS]

  mean and and Ben seem to be certainly in [TS]

  that same boat and I find that [TS]

  fascinating that we could in some ways [TS]

  agree on the specifics of the flaws of [TS]

  the movie and yet wildly disagree on [TS]

  whether we thought the movie was [TS]

  enjoyable and I don't you know I don't [TS]

  really know how to quantify that it you [TS]

  know about why you know that it's [TS]

  something to be reconciled that very [TS]

  subjective thing at that point and we [TS]

  can we can agree or disagree you know we [TS]

  can agree to a certain extent [TS]

  objectiveness about whether or not this [TS]

  movie you know is kind of fix it [TS]

  critically excellent movie let's put it [TS]

  that way and yet different you know [TS]

  subjectively on whether or not we [TS]

  enjoyed it and i think that you know [TS]

  that's fine [TS]

  this room for this room for everybody is [TS]

  exactly say I'm communities [TS]

  I'm a friend haha I maps i'm actually [TS]

  not challenging anybody's claim that [TS]

  they and let's say anybody anybody [TS]

  anybody and you read it [TS]

  exactly so I mean I i certainly think [TS]

  its paws it's an enjoyable movie you [TS]

  mean you mean capable of being enjoyed [TS]

  by someone is that what type III where I [TS]

  approve of [TS]

  I will not I will I will I will say [TS]

  Jason your your inner circle friends [TS]

  here nothing can happen here that you [TS]

  don't want to happen we just want to go [TS]

  around the room if you just be quiet for [TS]

  20 minutes and talk about how your [TS]

  fandom of Joss Whedon has affected each [TS]

  of us in our lives in turn and after [TS]

  that after we're done talking we're [TS]

  gonna give you two options and we hope [TS]

  you choose the right one but it's [TS]

  completely in your tent who wants to [TS]

  start [TS]

  well I found the Black Widow is very [TS]

  much like Buffy and I've written an [TS]

  essay about how what she means to me and [TS]

  and how the feminism is a spout but now [TS]

  you failed to see the parallels between [TS]

  Buffy and the love boat where sometimes [TS]

  they had good episodes but I saw Salina [TS]

  very very bad i did not fail to see them [TS]

  conduct Jason again I thought we all [TS]

  agreed that you'd be quiet just let [TS]

  anyone speak and turn again [TS]

  well as the host I really can't this is [TS]

  my therapy session I'm the therapist [TS]

  here not you and not go daddy o's on the [TS]

  podcast Jason this is an intervention [TS]

  just joss whedon is that what you used [TS]

  to collect you did it in pursuing this [TS]

  lifestyle you've neglected to factor in [TS]

  the fact that joss whedon is [TS]

  unfortunately a television producer and [TS]

  therefore has not no soul but less solar [TS]

  then a novelist or some other movies [TS]

  with screenwriter would have ok i wanna [TS]

  i wanna step away from the overarching a [TS]

  view of the movie and why Andy dislikes [TS]

  it and why India's horribly wrong [TS]

  no I i wanna i wanna talk about the [TS]

  characters a little bit more and [TS]

  specifically what I wanted to bring up [TS]

  is the Hulk because the Hulk has had you [TS]

  know we all of us got to see Bill Bixby [TS]

  as as children on cps he was on the run [TS]

  from a crusading newspaper reporter [TS]

  don't have those anymore and he would be [TS]

  angry and he turned into lou ferrigno [TS]

  well not all of those cases are sorry [TS]

  Dan all of us who are not ten years old [TS]

  anyway that was the first place many of [TS]

  many Americans saw the whole it and then [TS]

  we've seen two movies angley's Hulk with [TS]

  Eric Bana and and then the edmonton the [TS]

  edward norton hall incredible hulk and [TS]

  now we've got Mark Ruffalo as banner and [TS]

  a Gruffalo ask cgi blob as the whole and [TS]

  I so here-here's the thing i think the [TS]

  Hulk is a really problematic character [TS]

  yes I think you might actually make my [TS]

  own high school girlfriend is is married [TS]

  to the world's largest you know like [TS]

  this [TS]

  super fan of The Incredible Hulk he's [TS]

  like mr. Hulk guy and i never i don't [TS]

  understand i think you're a fan of the [TS]

  whole iin it always baffled me like he's [TS]

  a fan of anger or or a tornado right I [TS]

  guess anybody who listens to John's [TS]

  podcast probably a pic and so this is [TS]

  the thing I liked how Banner and the [TS]

  Hulk were handled in the Avengers i [TS]

  think this is one of the things that [TS]

  this movie did a pretty good job because [TS]

  we've seen the Hulk botched I a lot [TS]

  lately and I thought that banner was an [TS]

  interesting character when women [TS]

  scarlett johansson goes to get him and [TS]

  then when he's on the Helicarrier and [TS]

  he's talking to Tony Stark and he's got [TS]

  you know that they have that interesting [TS]

  interaction which I talked about earlier [TS]

  and that the Hulk to is not just a [TS]

  tornado and we can we can argue about [TS]

  why he's not always that way but he has [TS]

  some great moments including the I think [TS]

  applause moment in the movie where he [TS]

  gets listens to Loki speech and then [TS]

  just use and like a rag doll just [TS]

  smashes him around [TS]

  um I i thought this movie was the best [TS]

  take on the Hulk I've seen maybe ever [TS]

  only because I feel like everybody else [TS]

  had no idea how to use the Hulk and it [TS]

  becomes the Hulk in and of itself is not [TS]

  an interesting that interesting no [TS]

  banner banner as a person is is I think [TS]

  far more interesting especially if he's [TS]

  just a rage monster who just got her are [TS]

  and bashes things and it doesn't even [TS]

  talk right right because there's no [TS]

  motivation there's no complexity there's [TS]

  no I mean the struggle of him not to [TS]

  Hulk out is the interesting part of that [TS]

  character right and i think they gave [TS]

  Ruffalo more to do than they did in [TS]

  either the northerner bona versions [TS]

  which were defined solely by the fact [TS]

  that he's on the run right he's on the [TS]

  defensive and this time they actually [TS]

  gave him something stuff to do that felt [TS]

  proactive and yeah I don't know hehe [TS]

  bring much more interesting here to me [TS]

  than he did in either the prior to move [TS]

  yeah i think i think the secret is that [TS]

  the Hulk really doesn't work as a star [TS]

  in character for all the reasons that [TS]

  you mentioned he works very very good as [TS]

  a supporting character or when he is [TS]

  simply [TS]

  that presence where imagine that that [TS]

  they might imagine that that that toward [TS]

  that tornado movie from about seven or [TS]

  eight years ago where where the entire [TS]

  movie was about the tornado as opposed [TS]

  to everybody who the meteorologist is [TS]

  tracking the tornado the mainland [TS]

  visitors toss twister thank you very [TS]

  much helen hunt with Helen with hell I [TS]

  find that's terrible terrible movie [TS]

  exactly but but but in terms of [TS]

  developing story [TS]

  you can't you you it's hard to do a [TS]

  whole movie about that where the central [TS]

  character is the Holt you can do a very [TS]

  good character if he is this presidency [TS]

  it's okay better better better example [TS]

  the better movie imagine jaws but the [TS]

  entire movie was from the perspective of [TS]

  the shark it shouldn't be about the [TS]

  shark it should be about all the people [TS]

  of the problems of a shark represents [TS]

  the Hulk is the villain in some ways [TS]

  right [TS]

  yeah even my goodness if you would like [TS]

  to do you prefer less poverty and he [TS]

  he's he's supremely I mean in in a genre [TS]

  with superheroes where everybody is [TS]

  supremely powerful and they say fight [TS]

  you know when they're cranky but they [TS]

  all come together and made the villain [TS]

  has is is all-powerful and undefeatable [TS]

  and then is easily defeated right in the [TS]

  in this whole genre of that what the [TS]

  Hulk is interesting about the Hulk feels [TS]

  uncontrollable and you don't know what [TS]

  he's going to do and he actually in [TS]

  injects a a level of that that you don't [TS]

  get from other superheroes that are kind [TS]

  of more boring that the Hulk is this you [TS]

  know uncontrollable he's a force of [TS]

  undefined yeah exactly and and that's [TS]

  that's great but he's not really a [TS]

  character in and he and Andy's point is [TS]

  not a lead in any way shape or form and [TS]

  so the way he's deployed in the Avengers [TS]

  in some ways it's brilliant that you [TS]

  know because he has all of these other [TS]

  things going on and then the Hulk just [TS]

  needs to do his little Hulk bit which he [TS]

  does really well and mark mark ruffalo [TS]

  is the best banner that I've seen any [TS]

  and anything I guess [TS]

  oh yes got that kind of rumpled but he [TS]

  you believe he's a scientist right you [TS]

  believe he's a genius scientist which is [TS]

  what banner is supposed to be and you [TS]

  believe he's sad about this situation [TS]

  yeah more than anything else I think you [TS]

  believe that [TS]

  he is working very very hard every [TS]

  second of his life never to let his [TS]

  emotions get out of control [TS]

  yeah yeah I think I think and I you know [TS]

  you can arise or lowes and and bonded to [TS]

  a certain extent as actors but yeah [TS]

  those movies did not they didn't really [TS]

  do a good job of that character and it [TS]

  never of the banner character anyways [TS]

  for me but like India what Hulk was what [TS]

  Bruce Banner was asked to do in this [TS]

  movie was mostly done with that you know [TS]

  gamma rays find the blood and whatever [TS]

  like that was so stupid like but i [TS]

  wanted the character I want to see more [TS]

  of is I haven't seen the thor movie and [TS]

  I thought he was amusing and so i think [TS]

  i'm now going to watch the movie because [TS]

  i think it will be funny [TS]

  whether it's intentionally funny or not [TS]

  and I iron man i like that and it is [TS]

  funny and the house is actually not a [TS]

  bad movie [TS]

  Tony Stark is always amusing just [TS]

  because you know a robert downey jr is [TS]

  charismatic and you know that silly and [TS]

  stuff i don't think that will take that [TS]

  seriously don't take iron man himself [TS]

  that seriously but I think that's money [TS]

  and the but mark ruffalo Mike boy I I [TS]

  when I saw this I thought he was the one [TS]

  who was in that Hulk movie that I didn't [TS]

  see and I was kind of sad to find that [TS]

  it was at norton yeah he could I think [TS]

  he could actually you're saying you [TS]

  can't make the whole command character [TS]

  you can do it probably like I like a [TS]

  vampire movie where the vampires trying [TS]

  not to drink other people's blood or [TS]

  like like he's trying to contain you [TS]

  know where the struggle is between the [TS]

  main character who has this beast within [TS]

  our werewolf movie worries like oh I [TS]

  don't want to change into the werewolf [TS]

  the werewolf is a character in a [TS]

  werewolf movie but if you sympathize [TS]

  with the poor guy who's to changing into [TS]

  a werewolf or maybe changing into [TS]

  werewolf like American Werewolf in [TS]

  London or something you can do a good [TS]

  Hulk movie and it's not about the Hulk [TS]

  any more than American Werewolf in [TS]

  London is about the werewolf but the guy [TS]

  is the werewolf and you know banner is [TS]

  Hulk I've only just we've only just [TS]

  waiting on a show but a vampire doesn't [TS]

  like Frank yeah cancer in her well [TS]

  vampires aren't crazy rage monsters and [TS]

  I and that arc you could do a movie with [TS]

  that arc-like in the beginning of the [TS]

  movie he's a raging monster and then [TS]

  banner learns to control them and [TS]

  actually ends up using this thing about [TS]

  himself that he hates to do to save [TS]

  someone he loves this Avengers was not [TS]

  that movie but you can imagine that [TS]

  movie existing right and i think that [TS]

  would be a a good movie night with the [TS]

  Hulk is lead character but involving the [TS]

  Hulk i like i like the arc that and [TS]

  again it may be an arc that is two [TS]

  points and you have to sort of there [TS]

  might be a third point but it [TS]

  that banner has in the sense that he's [TS]

  brought in kind of knot on his own by [TS]

  the Black Widow and her entire shield [TS]

  task force and when he wakes up it in [TS]

  you know on the beach and I don't know [TS]

  where he is like in Coney Island her I [TS]

  mean he's in New Jersey somewhere he's [TS]

  not in New York yet when he after he [TS]

  dropped off the Helicarrier and uh you [TS]

  know he could just walk away to that [TS]

  music from The Incredible Hulk TV series [TS]

  paladin awesome as the the right he's [TS]

  walking over the bridge and you will [TS]

  never see him again [TS]

  look it up then and and and Tony Stark's [TS]

  the only ones like where's banner and [TS]

  everybody's like manner [TS]

  he's not coming back are you kidding [TS]

  because they were he's a monster and [TS]

  he's no he's not controllable and [TS]

  they've written them off and Tony [TS]

  Stark's like no no he's gonna compare oh [TS]

  right right that's the key [TS]

  I'm like there and and he does so so [TS]

  it's so I like that where it's like that [TS]

  is that moment where banner is taking [TS]

  some responsibility he has a little bit [TS]

  of a a path that he walks down and and [TS]

  for a character I don't know for the [TS]

  Hulk I i was happy that the whole got a [TS]

  little bit of that attention because the [TS]

  Hulk is so Miss so easily miss handled [TS]

  and for lots of good reasons [TS]

  let's see those those other minor but I [TS]

  i think this was i had already crossed [TS]

  over the point of being bored with this [TS]

  movie so maybe my immediate reaction to [TS]

  that seem suspect but when Harry that [TS]

  the Harry Dean Stanton type guy wasn't [TS]

  Harry Dean Stanton who finds y-yes ankle [TS]

  is inexplicably Harry Dean states [TS]

  looking old [TS]

  he's got a glowing object in the trunk [TS]

  of his car to i really wanted better to [TS]

  say wow that was intense [TS]

  the terraces hulkbusters are always [TS]

  intense but it's like it's like I would [TS]

  like to think that someone who took the [TS]

  screenwriting more seriously would find [TS]

  a reason for the guy to not react though [TS]

  yep you're about well yesterday we had [TS]

  an enormous hooking blue guy I [TS]

  an enormous hooking blue guy I [TS]

  always keep a change of clothes on hand [TS]

  in case the guy who crashes through the [TS]

  roof from an improbable I'd need to come [TS]

  from the naked girls but three of the [TS]

  fiber not all of them come down naked [TS]

  was a guy who had the blue trunks on and [TS]

  i gave him a cocoa i think i gave her i [TS]

  don't know why they keep crashing in [TS]

  here but you know old happy I get paid [TS]

  the same whether a helpfully naked guy [TS]

  who came crashing through the roof from [TS]

  an improbable hide or not it [TS]

  they call me old movie you know a [TS]

  different reason why just why it was our [TS]

  that was an odd odd scene III I cannot [TS]

  explain i SAT there thinking why and why [TS]

  Harry Dean Stanton I guess why not [TS]

  what ya oh my god it's Harry Dean [TS]

  Stanton well because because help [TS]

  because he makes every movie more [TS]

  awesome that's just smart [TS]

  sure sure I'll give you that I'm so Andy [TS]

  speaking of your frame of mind and i [TS]

  know john has a story about something [TS]

  odd that happened in the theater when he [TS]

  was watching this I'm now picturing that [TS]

  you went down to the front of the [TS]

  theater with a cook with the couple of [TS]

  foot cardboard of foldable robots and [TS]

  just began mst3k movie that as it [TS]

  unspooled just to get to get out but [TS]

  John can you take can you tell the story [TS]

  of the person who was sitting next to [TS]

  your wife in the movie theater because [TS]

  that's just bizarre [TS]

  it was bizarre was very bizarre to me so [TS]

  that the person sitting out sitting next [TS]

  to my wife I was annexed to her eye she [TS]

  was sketching with colored pencils on a [TS]

  pad from it from the start of the movie [TS]

  like not like she took it out halfway [TS]

  through and she got bored from the start [TS]

  of the movie sketching with colored [TS]

  pencils on a pad with a flashlight so [TS]

  she could see the pad because it's not [TS]

  backlit I and she was not drawing [TS]

  pictures of the Avengers but what she [TS]

  was doing was a lot of shading with Shh [TS]

  Shh and that that boggles my mind [TS]

  because it wasn't a little kid dragged [TS]

  there by her parents didn't appear to be [TS]

  a girl there with a boyfriend or other [TS]

  significant other I I don't understand [TS]

  why she was in the theater because why [TS]

  do you go to a movie theater and draw [TS]

  unrelated things on a pad with a [TS]

  flashlight was it reserves really warm [TS]

  that day maybe she just wanted to get [TS]

  the app I was it was kicks it was it [TS]

  tonight show there was a red sox game so [TS]

  I found the Fenway theater I it was a [TS]

  very strange to me and it didn't bother [TS]

  me because I couldn't hear the shading [TS]

  or didn't you know it wasn't like but [TS]

  that was my cause I got you know but my [TS]

  wife is next and kept asking her to stop [TS]

  and she would like put the light away [TS]

  for a second and try to cover up the [TS]

  light and draw some more as I why are [TS]

  you in the movies why do you think $11 [TS]

  to be sitting here to drawing on your [TS]

  sketch patch maybe just maybe you were [TS]

  the subject of some sort of experiment [TS]

  john III Hawks out and and if it was [TS]

  actually bother but i would have been [TS]

  much more rude about it and I would have [TS]

  been very annoyed this is a movie like [TS]

  this this is a question I was going to [TS]

  ask everybody earlier who who is going [TS]

  to see this movie again Jason are you [TS]

  said he would and I'll probably catch it [TS]

  on the rental when it comes out but i'd [TS]

  like to see it again on the big screen [TS]

  yeah if I could take my my i want to [TS]

  show my kids a couple more the Marvel [TS]

  movies and then I think if it's still [TS]

  playing will take them and send Mandy is [TS]

  not going to see this again even if it's [TS]

  like living on TV and these detailed [TS]

  notes all the one else I'll be honest if [TS]

  a group of friends were going and [TS]

  inviting me along i would go and I would [TS]

  be very I'd be quiet for the [TS]

  two-and-a-half hours i would probably [TS]

  bring a sketchpad little flashlight but [TS]

  yeah I mean like on your own it i don't [TS]

  think it is not it's not like it's not [TS]

  like sex in the city two I don't feel as [TS]

  though I've been emotionally scarred by [TS]

  the experience of seeing this movie I [TS]

  just thought it was a mediocre movie [TS]

  that's why i like but like it was that [TS]

  would you netflix it would you like say [TS]

  you're bored some night you're like I'm [TS]

  gonna watch a movie tonight and how this [TS]

  came out of Netflix imagine it's [TS]

  actually on streaming would you stream [TS]

  it would you watching Navy yes but yes [TS]

  maybe see this this is this is a quirk [TS]

  of mine in which when I see a movie I [TS]

  don't like the my foot my second [TS]

  favorite kind of movie behind the movies [TS]

  that I legitimately like are the ones [TS]

  where I just see lots of laws of them [TS]

  because i feel as though if I [TS]

  keep watching it also understand what [TS]

  specifically I didn't like about it and [TS]

  so when it comes to streaming and I will [TS]

  but i will be doing in a snarky sort of [TS]

  way or a smug way I really want to see [TS]

  it again at a later date when I'm [TS]

  removed from my first experience with it [TS]

  i want to come amber but i'm running a [TS]

  blog post to mexico after my tweet i got [TS]

  a lot of questions about a lot of [TS]

  reactions and people who were really [TS]

  interested in like exactly why I didn't [TS]

  like it so I went into three much time I [TS]

  really want to look back at that block [TS]

  peace and see was I on the money or what [TS]

  is there something here that I just [TS]

  didn't see the first time so yeah I i [TS]

  definitely will see the second time I I [TS]

  don't think I've ever going to see this [TS]

  movie again unless I don't pay Sonya my [TS]

  son gets all did not mean like even if I [TS]

  don't think I'm netflix it was on TV I [TS]

  don't think i would watch it unless I [TS]

  was trying to show it to my son because [TS]

  i think you know for your old gear once [TS]

  it becomes 12 and maybe want to see that [TS]

  but like and I don't think that and [TS]

  again I enjoyed the experience of [TS]

  watching was just not one of those [TS]

  movies that I ever really have an urge [TS]

  just to watch a second time and there's [TS]

  a whole whole bunch of movies that fall [TS]

  into this category some movies after you [TS]

  see it like I've got to see that again [TS]

  and some like here's an example that [TS]

  will probably be controversial [TS]

  I don't think I'm ever gonna see [TS]

  inception again I saw it once in the [TS]

  theater I was like me and like I'm never [TS]

  gonna watch that movie again you know if [TS]

  it was on TV I would not so inception [TS]

  let me watch again but I you know I [TS]

  don't know if that speaks to that I've [TS]

  compartmentalizing these movies that [TS]

  don't connect everybody just didn't [TS]

  connect with me or I feel like there's [TS]

  nothing else I can get out of it or that [TS]

  it can only be downhill from there but [TS]

  that's that's how I felt about the [TS]

  adventures [TS]

  I might watch inception again only [TS]

  because it got so much praise and I [TS]

  better hate it and I found well I found [TS]

  it I found it really worthy of analysis [TS]

  because I thought about it a lot for [TS]

  days afterward but the in the end I [TS]

  decided that I really didn't like it so [TS]

  if i watch it again it would be liked it [TS]

  so was I just in a bad mood because [TS]

  everybody else seemed to like it and i [TS]

  decided i hate it but I i may also just [TS]

  say why would i inflict this movie on [TS]

  myself a second time I think I [TS]

  understand why people like Inception the [TS]

  same way i think i understand why people [TS]

  like the adventures in some respects I [TS]

  understand why people like the [TS]

  Transformers it you know I but I just [TS]

  like I look down to the people who like [TS]

  the Transformers and I guess I'm one of [TS]

  the people who was able to an ironic we [TS]

  enjoyed the goofiness of the Avengers [TS]

  and then say okay well I saw that movie [TS]

  you know that it was a it was a it's [TS]

  it's a summer blockbuster silly movie [TS]

  yeah I i will be much more angry if the [TS]

  next dark knight movie is awful and in [TS]

  fact i'm getting increasingly angry [TS]

  about the dark knight which criticized [TS]

  as I feel that the Batman begin with so [TS]

  much better movie like this so much but [TS]

  the flaws in the dark night when I came [TS]

  out of it I was like yeah these problems [TS]

  but unlike the more just like sits with [TS]

  me and I've seen it a second time like [TS]

  man this is not as good as Batman Begins [TS]

  what happened here why does everybody [TS]

  like this movie I don't know any legends [TS]

  good in it but don't keep watching it I [TS]

  think every time you watch The Dark [TS]

  Knight gets worse [TS]

  well I've only seen that I don't see the [TS]

  ones because that movie I really don't [TS]

  want to see again [TS]

  actually I'm planning to rewatch that [TS]

  and batman begins before the next one is [TS]

  how I do things now do my homework i [TS]

  I've seen I've seen inception two or [TS]

  three times I'm I I don't think it's a [TS]

  perfect movie I think it's a really good [TS]

  movie it's I think it has basic flaws [TS]

  that it just can't get around you really [TS]

  have to start a movie like that with 45 [TS]

  minutes of just laying out just read [TS]

  taking the the top off the box the board [TS]

  game and reading off the rules making [TS]

  sure everybody around the table [TS]

  understands what happens when you pass [TS]

  by go and what the rules are for this [TS]

  that and the other is that that kind of [TS]

  limits how great a movie could be i did [TS]

  like the second Batman movie because [TS]

  they really i felt as though there was a [TS]

  real purpose to it in which in there's a [TS]

  natural consequence to me there was a [TS]

  natural consequence to what Bruce Wayne [TS]

  went through for the first movie and [TS]

  that consequence was am I just going to [TS]

  single-handedly solve all the problems [TS]

  in Gotham and because batman was [TS]

  fighting Punk's Gotham will be fine [TS]

  no I have to take a larger pro at larger [TS]

  stance basically a lot more holistic [TS]

  stance towards fixing everything and [TS]

  also realizing that the fact that I'm [TS]

  here dressed as a bat which was my own [TS]

  little psychosis to begin with his it is [TS]

  in itself creating brand new problems up [TS]

  in the form of a brand new hire class of [TS]

  psychotic will set fire to 60 million [TS]

  dollars just to make the point that he [TS]

  doesn't give a damn about the 60 million [TS]

  dollars [TS]

  it really is about just being randomly [TS]

  randomly randomly randomly sick against [TS]

  the against the population once the [TS]

  third movie is that we should do a we [TS]

  should do an episode about the the three [TS]

  movies because we've beaten we just [TS]

  superhero movie episode will be to beat [TS]

  on it a little bit but I don't get too [TS]

  far field here this is not the [TS]

  christopher nolan i will i'll i will [TS]

  just say that that will be one hell of [TS]

  an achievement if he can do through or [TS]

  it in [TS]

  I'm sorry should I should limit this to [TS]

  my own personal perspective i don't [TS]

  think i've ever seen their that there [TS]

  are very few movies movie series where [TS]

  123 all great movies they don't lose it [TS]

  by the third movie no spider-man 3 well [TS]

  into to interject on that point and [TS]

  bring it back up [TS]

  a bit i I'm very interested by the fact [TS]

  that you know the no one approach is to [TS]

  say it's done right and sure warner [TS]

  brothers will reboot it because [TS]

  inevitably they will but from an [TS]

  artistic point of view you know what to [TS]

  say i'm gonna you know basically tell [TS]

  this story it's got a beginning a middle [TS]

  and an end and that's unusual in and I [TS]

  think superhero friend in any sort of [TS]

  franchise movie to a large extent but [TS]

  especially in superhero movies because [TS]

  you know coming from a background where [TS]

  we have titles that have lasted you know [TS]

  50 or 60 years right stuff doesn't end [TS]

  there always needs to be and that's the [TS]

  trap that spider-man fell into you know [TS]

  they're in terms of we need to keep [TS]

  outdoing ourselves and keep having [TS]

  bigger and better things and in some [TS]

  ways the Avengers is the pinnacle of [TS]

  that right it's the city not just we're [TS]

  going to take a whole bunch of movies [TS]

  about what character and you know make [TS]

  them more and more spectacular every [TS]

  time it's we're gonna take you know [TS]

  movies about six different characters [TS]

  and make them even more spectacular so [TS]

  you know the problem here really becomes [TS]

  in some ways it's like a superhero arms [TS]

  race you know where you've got well now [TS]

  we have to see Thor 2 and Captain [TS]

  America 2 and then the avengers 2 has to [TS]

  build on that and it's like a certain [TS]

  point you just can't sustain the weight [TS]

  and our liberties angela has a billion [TS]

  dollars that scary as hell right and so [TS]

  they had to say you know again the sort [TS]

  of come full circle and when we were [TS]

  talking earlier about expectations you [TS]

  know where we do have a lot of [TS]

  expectations for good of real about the [TS]

  fact that you know we've seen how [TS]

  superhero movies tend to progress and [TS]

  franchises where they feel like we have [TS]

  to keep outdoing the last installment [TS]

  and I think you know no one has done for [TS]

  the most part a good job of proving that [TS]

  you don't necessarily have to do that [TS]

  although you know as we could say there [TS]

  is the argument that the the dark knight [TS]

  is overloaded in some ways but you know [TS]

  the Avengers did a fairly good job of [TS]

  this saying like hey we can we can bring [TS]

  all these things together and in turn [TS]

  this into a franchise movie that doesn't [TS]

  necessarily have to be like whoo utterly [TS]

  spectacular to the point that collapses [TS]

  under its own weight i don't know i [TS]

  think i think that's an interesting [TS]

  dilemma that superhero movies have to [TS]

  fend with is this idea of things just go [TS]

  on forever right you can't nobody dies [TS]

  it's super here with me what one real [TS]

  one really big boon is that now that we [TS]

  have a superhero movie that has become [TS]

  the number-one grossing movie almost [TS]

  certainly become the number-one grossing [TS]

  movie of all time [TS]

  that means a lot of other studios are [TS]

  going to start to take a risk on other [TS]

  superior properties and so I I there's [TS]

  so many great characters out there that [TS]

  that just need that 250 million dollar [TS]

  budget and Fantastic Four could have [TS]

  been a great movie particularly if you [TS]

  get rid of the entire origin and just [TS]

  start from day one page one [TS]

  they are super hero team we understand [TS]

  that concept just move over from there [TS]

  but you can't do that as a [TS]

  hundred-million-dollar movie you really [TS]

  have to spend the money and put all the [TS]

  screen and so I would love to see a [TS]

  Wonder Woman movie that's actually made [TS]

  that they I want to see them actually [TS]

  crack that story i'd love to see justice [TS]

  league movie and all these things maybe [TS]

  are going under happens [TS]

  Warner Brothers kicking himself now [TS]

  right thinking wait how come we had [TS]

  Superman Batman movies how come we [TS]

  didn't do this [TS]

  joss whedon is that guy we fired off of [TS]

  the Wonder Woman project okay good [TS]

  hey didn't you bring the actress he [TS]

  wanted to play wonder woman to his [TS]

  adventures [TS]

  cobie smulders is isn't it and she was [TS]

  one of the rumor people but right you [TS]

  are meaty stated that she was his choice [TS]

  for his choice interesting i would have [TS]

  been interesting choice [TS]

  so actually something and he said that I [TS]

  want to mention and as critical as i [TS]

  have been about the dark knight i will [TS]

  say this i feel like Christopher Nolan's [TS]

  movies even even though including [TS]

  inception actually he makes ambitious [TS]

  movies he he is trying lots of stuff is [TS]

  ambitious is the word I would use right [TS]

  and in if I I feel like joss whedon [TS]

  personally I I feel he did a good job of [TS]

  assembling a crowd-pleasing movie out of [TS]

  the component parts that he was given by [TS]

  Marvel I wouldn't call this ambitious [TS]

  right I I conceptually in any way I I [TS]

  feel like this was he was given a task [TS]

  and he performed it admirably better [TS]

  than we could have expected [TS]

  it's not the same feeling as something [TS]

  like in the dark knight where I feel [TS]

  which I dislike but I felt he was very [TS]

  ambitious and trying he's trying to make [TS]

  a fantastic motion picture period me [TS]

  that did the Batman movies feel more [TS]

  like drama where's the Avengers feels [TS]

  more like how many really action and [TS]

  then where is action and yeah [TS]

  yeah exactly but I think the you know [TS]

  the Batman movies are more you know in [TS]

  some ways you look at the movies in and [TS]

  see the third one obviously but feels it [TS]

  reads kinda like a tragedy in a lot of [TS]

  ways [TS]

  yeah but already it really really is [TS]

  universally the Batman movies i think [TS]

  that it's not necessarily doesn't it [TS]

  doesn't necessarily have to be about the [TS]

  superhero comic book it really is the [TS]

  state the standard story of here is a [TS]

  guy who never had this traumatic event [TS]

  that is shaped his entire life he finds [TS]

  himself at a crossroads where you can [TS]

  either do this the knock-on effects of [TS]

  this event can either [TS]

  absolutely and utterly destroy him or he [TS]

  can turn that vengeance elsewhere and [TS]

  something positive and that's just a [TS]

  classic movie mode teeth you just [TS]

  articulated so many different ways but I [TS]

  guess something just occurred to me is [TS]

  maybe that maybe the best of the fairest [TS]

  way for me to really talk about the [TS]

  Avengers is Islam like that show on the [TS]

  Food Network shows chopped where they [TS]

  get a basket of ingredients that four [TS]

  different chefs have to they don't know [TS]

  what's in the basket they see it they [TS]

  have 20 minutes to make something out of [TS]

  it where the theme ingredients in the [TS]

  basket were ground hamburger a roll or [TS]

  lettuce tomato and tartar sauce and joss [TS]

  whedon made a hamburger out of that and [TS]

  that's perfectly fine and it was a [TS]

  perfect hamburger but a guy like Chris [TS]

  Nolan said that's too obvious let's do [TS]

  something brand-new the people haven't [TS]

  really seen before are totally expecting [TS]

  out of this before and they're two very [TS]

  good meals but one of them just you'll [TS]

  be telling people you don't you don't [TS]

  tell people about a month later [TS]

  oh my god this guy he took ground beef [TS]

  and a ham and a hamburger role and [TS]

  lettuce and tomato and made it into a [TS]

  hamburger you forget about that and in [TS]

  10 minutes later [TS]

  well and you know there's some [TS]

  interesting subjects i think that are [TS]

  you know I think there isn't some [TS]

  interesting topics that for like an [TS]

  adventure movie I didn't I i haven't [TS]

  followed a lot of superhero comics in [TS]

  many years but i was intrigued by at [TS]

  least the premise of the civil war [TS]

  storyline that the Avengers happened did [TS]

  what was the last 34 years ago and i [TS]

  think that there is potentially an [TS]

  interesting storyline in that then again [TS]

  I don't know if you do it in a 2822 [TS]

  two-and-a-half-hour movie but for me [TS]

  especially you know the question for me [TS]

  and maybe this is something that comes [TS]

  up more in [TS]

  in captain america 2 but this idea of [TS]

  Captain America as a character who is [TS]

  now you know the man out of time and [TS]

  left at a point where you know Cee the [TS]

  whole power struggle of the world was [TS]

  very different right like there was this [TS]

  idea like America were on the side of [TS]

  the good were beaten up you know the [TS]

  Nazis their evil unquestionably and now [TS]

  all of a sudden you know things are much [TS]

  less black and white in the modern day [TS]

  and so you know I i would really love to [TS]

  see a movie either adventures of captain [TS]

  america along those lines were there is [TS]

  more shades of gray and more discussion [TS]

  about like you know well what does it [TS]

  mean to have these superheroes together [TS]

  you know are they all on the same side [TS]

  do they really have different agendas [TS]

  maybe you know I don't know I think that [TS]

  that could be an interesting rich vein [TS]

  there [TS]

  I don't know that you have to get that [TS]

  serious especially with the with the [TS]

  Marvel Universe I mean it looks like [TS]

  they're heading out [TS]

  it almost seems as though if what i've [TS]

  read is correct we will be leaving Earth [TS]

  more you know as things go forward and [TS]

  that it's going to become more of a more [TS]

  of an interplanetary type of thing and [TS]

  how that worked great for Green Lantern [TS]

  well maybe that maybe they'll get it [TS]

  right maybe they want mean you know that [TS]

  the last then the the credit scene with [TS]

  the the appearance of Thanos I had to [TS]

  look him up by the wait for you out [TS]

  there but maybe maybe that's the way [TS]

  it's headed and maybe you know I mean [TS]

  how do you yeah I give them a certain [TS]

  amount of credit for trying to make some [TS]

  of these things plausible for the big [TS]

  screen in ways that they you could [TS]

  simply take you know you know take as [TS]

  they came at you in the pages of a comic [TS]

  book I mean how do you do how do you do [TS]

  the mandarin i don't know i mean well i [TS]

  guess we're gonna find out and iron man [TS]

  3 somehow but more importantly how do [TS]

  you do the Mandarin without seriously [TS]

  cheesing off the Chinese but yeah well [TS]

  that's right and casting bank Kingsley [TS]

  presume it's a matter of mandarin for [TS]

  the modern era a new mandarin he's a [TS]

  matter and orange an orange magnet is [TS]

  trying to take over the world supply of [TS]

  oranges here here's a here's our dusty [TS]

  and the memory [TS]

  he reached he renounced his natural [TS]

  citizenship and the citizenship of every [TS]

  other nation in the world and had [TS]

  cosmetic surgery so he doesn't look like [TS]

  he's from anyone if he did that because [TS]

  he had a lot of facebook stock topical [TS]

  reference take actually I billionaire [TS]

  III what i wanted to mention also that a [TS]

  and I i think this came up in the [TS]

  previous podcast one of the things I i [TS]

  well rewatching captain america actually [TS]

  with my kids the other week i was sad as [TS]

  I was when it's not the first time that [TS]

  because of the Avengers and because this [TS]

  movie was coming they they do the story [TS]

  where he is frozen and thaws out in the [TS]

  present day which is perfectly [TS]

  interesting story to tell [TS]

  except I I felt like they really missed [TS]

  the opportunity to tell more stories in [TS]

  the past with the Howling Commandos [TS]

  which we see only briefly [TS]

  yeah that's not in a montage which is [TS]

  among the blood moons that film but yeah [TS]

  and um I was actually thinking that it [TS]

  would be nice if they made a captain [TS]

  america 2 obviously they're gonna have [TS]

  to deal with him in the present day [TS]

  because of the Avengers I I'm actually [TS]

  kind of hoping that they might do a [TS]

  little back and forth kind of thing [TS]

  where they can flash back into world war [TS]

  two because I really thought that was [TS]

  some of the you know that was that was [TS]

  some really big potential stuff in that [TS]

  movie in and they they had to blow [TS]

  through it because they had to get to [TS]

  the point where they get him waking up [TS]

  with in Times Square with with Nick Fury [TS]

  his eye patch and I thought that was [TS]

  unfortunate so that's another thing is I [TS]

  can't blame the Avengers for really [TS]

  thought you were gonna say Nick Fury and [TS]

  his ipad and Nick Fury is just there is [TS]

  playing angry birds you know he nick [TS]

  fury he will the entire the entire [TS]

  Helicarrier is probably just run from an [TS]

  ipad while they play Galaga they did [TS]

  that they did it they got illegal mame [TS]

  roms that's what I do that's all rogue [TS]

  they've gone I I'll be I'll be very [TS]

  impressed if they can make Captain [TS]

  America work I didn't think that the [TS]

  character work in the first movie I [TS]

  didn't think you really work in the [TS]

  second movie i think it's possible that [TS]

  in this this could be just my own [TS]

  perspective but i don't think that the [TS]

  leave when they redesigned the captain [TS]

  america costume [TS]

  the second time he still just looks like [TS]

  oh that just looks so weird and so [TS]

  totally not like anything that anybody [TS]

  would design for anybody to actually [TS]

  wear and I know that they justified it a [TS]

  little bit by making it designed by a [TS]

  big fan boy of Captain America who would [TS]

  never deviate from the world war two [TS]

  bond poster in any way but it's like [TS]

  yeah you what you really need to what [TS]

  you really need to communicate about [TS]

  Captain America is that he is really [TS]

  really is on some level right about [TS]

  everything and you may disagree with it [TS]

  may be very inconvenient but he's right [TS]

  about almost everything in the fact that [TS]

  he has that kind of credibility is the [TS]

  reason why at least in the comic books [TS]

  the Norse god of thunder will happily [TS]

  take orders from him and that's not [TS]

  something that you can really turn in [TS]

  about an hour's worth of movie [TS]

  development that really something that [TS]

  took decades of different stories to [TS]

  really develop that credibility so i'll [TS]

  be really impressive anybody can really [TS]

  make Captain America work on the on the [TS]

  screen [TS]

  yeah because the problem in the Marvel [TS]

  Universe now that I know much about it [TS]

  beyond this movie but can you can you [TS]

  really have a coherent story with these [TS]

  people in it that's not kind of a jokey [TS]

  just Whedon kind of sarcastic comment [TS]

  think because there's there's actually [TS]

  no way you could do a serious taking [TS]

  this because they're their powers don't [TS]

  line up with any sort of reasonable grid [TS]

  and so you i was really hope I was [TS]

  really hoping that they would have made [TS]

  them it was really hoping that they [TS]

  would find an excuse for 24 y Hawkeye [TS]

  really makes sense in this movie why why [TS]

  would somebody chooses the PO an arrow [TS]

  at and i was thinking i was at was as i [TS]

  was thinking about it saying well maybe [TS]

  the way that you do is you say that he's [TS]

  not necessarily there to shoot some of [TS]

  the bow and arrow is like sort of a [TS]

  tactician but on the on that point [TS]

  security scanners are looking for [TS]

  firearms and bullets they are looking [TS]

  for pieces of wood and string so maybe [TS]

  that's why he chose that weapon became [TS]

  really good at it but it does come down [TS]

  to seriously that at one point when when [TS]

  shield is monitoring this huge fight for [TS]

  the survival of Earth when they see how [TS]

  shocked i fired an arrow at that little [TS]

  ship and it exploded [TS]

  don't we have like a jillion advanced [TS]

  tactical fighters on this well we just [TS]

  send some of those fighters down there [TS]

  because it seems like maybe these guys [TS]

  are really easy to kill a bow and arrow [TS]

  and you know well they were exploding [TS]

  tip but like even when you just have [TS]

  like Iron Man vs thor are you gonna get [TS]

  like a demigod versus a guy in a robot's [TS]

  like it doesn't end the people who have [TS]

  no powers you can't put them all in the [TS]

  same movie and then make them fight each [TS]

  other like why would you even why would [TS]

  you allow the defenseless woman in a [TS]

  skin-tight suit even on that battlefield [TS]

  she's got a handgun she'll be fine she's [TS]

  magic right you mean you brought this up [TS]

  before I love the bit where she was just [TS]

  oh look there's a loaf there's an alien [TS]

  like a little like you know jetski fine [TS]

  i know i'll jump from this rooftop I [TS]

  just grabbed onto it and then good [TS]

  happens yeah you can fly you know their [TS]

  way through their ways to solve these [TS]

  problems either he either we did not [TS]

  find the solutions or didn't care to [TS]

  find this loop and I think the [TS]

  characters themselves like their powers [TS]

  that you can't it's like having batman [TS]

  superman movie together unless Batman is [TS]

  everything Batman owns is made of [TS]

  kryptonite that movie is over [TS]

  ok for first of all a batman superman [TS]

  movie would be everything okay [TS]

  everything because you better is that [TS]

  you'd better believe that one of [TS]

  batman's most strongest qualities is [TS]

  that he has thought about everything as [TS]

  mr. he's eating kryptonite first [TS]

  breakfast cereal [TS]

  thanks i know some somewhere in the bad [TS]

  k if he has a solution for getting rid [TS]

  of Superman if need be and that's that's [TS]

  that's why the big Richard but i love i [TS]

  did like the fact that came back the [TS]

  Avengers they at least found a way to [TS]

  say here's why [TS]

  haka is an asset to shield but because [TS]

  he's the bow and arrow guy but he's the [TS]

  guy you put in the helicopter to observe [TS]

  the battle and see the patterns of [TS]

  battle that are happening saying okay we [TS]

  really need to move our forces right [TS]

  here because that got that platoon over [TS]

  there swinging in of over forty third [TS]

  street if we get two guys with the [TS]

  robber appropriate weapons and under at [TS]

  an elevated position on this corner we [TS]

  can take them up before they can invade [TS]

  this place but they didn't really stick [TS]

  with that they just simply said the guy [TS]

  you got 33 arrows remember you can't [TS]

  fire more than 33 of these before you [TS]

  have to go back to the joke shop for [TS]

  more arrows [TS]

  ok so we're running a temp before [TS]

  so I have one more topic which I wanted [TS]

  to bring up which is there a couple [TS]

  things in this movie that i found odd [TS]

  for a summer blockbuster we have the [TS]

  fact that I shield is using the Cosmic [TS]

  Cube technology to build weapons like [TS]

  the red skull built-in captain america [TS]

  and therefore and the heroes find this [TS]

  out and they're very angry at nick fury [TS]

  and if you're basically kind of like [TS]

  goes away for the rest of the movie [TS]

  because they're mad at him because he's [TS]

  using these cosmic powers that shouldn't [TS]

  be meddled with to build lots of weapons [TS]

  for his tactical you know level 2 or [TS]

  whatever it is [TS]

  tactical squad and then separate from [TS]

  that there's also the shadowy group of [TS]

  of silhouette Eduardo world's leader [TS]

  figure type conspirators who who make [TS]

  decisions like let's send a nuclear [TS]

  missile into the middle of Manhattan and [TS]

  I found these I found these kind of odd [TS]

  choices that there that in the midst of [TS]

  this summer blockbusters like a least a [TS]

  hand wave that's like oh the you know [TS]

  the the military-industrial government [TS]

  shadowy conspiracy complex they're bad [TS]

  they're very bad it just it just seemed [TS]

  totally the am I the only one it seemed [TS]

  very strong are bad [TS]

  well yes but it just sort of bizarre [TS]

  what was it i mean i'm not even sure a [TS]

  message that they had the big screens [TS]

  and so once you've got those six big [TS]

  screens like well I guess we have to [TS]

  have an international conspiracy or we [TS]

  do with these big screens because if [TS]

  they were all i can to buy the nike [TS]

  purchasing department yeah they were on [TS]

  iphone screens it's not it's not [TS]

  menacing they were gonna there were only [TS]

  going to be five members of the [TS]

  conspiracy but they had the extra screen [TS]

  so they brought in an extra guy [TS]

  yeah those are those my favorite [TS]

  characters in the movie remember those [TS]

  guys in the screen for what great [TS]

  characters you silhouette one silhouette [TS]

  to silhouette female i mean i think i [TS]

  think that goes towards making making [TS]

  Nick Fury more ambiguous like he's not [TS]

  just totally the guys want to manipulate [TS]

  them with pretending you found the cards [TS]

  are the body and like it makes him at [TS]

  least have some interest otherwise [TS]

  otherwise here it comes [TS]

  Broyles from fringe where he's like why [TS]

  that is even there just keep me informed [TS]

  yeah okay alright alright well just [TS]

  talking but please Nick Fury hell as one [TS]

  time he has one characteristic that [TS]

  actually could possibly make him a [TS]

  character and that his will is that he's [TS]

  willing to do whatever it takes to [TS]

  manipulate these people into it is that [TS]

  they don't even you know but that mean [TS]

  again he gets his his five minutes of [TS]

  character development in the movie and [TS]

  then they move on [TS]

  yeah yeah I just I just thought it was [TS]

  strange that the midst of the superhero [TS]

  action that we get the shadowy [TS]

  government figures who decide that [TS]

  they're going to bomb Manhattan with a [TS]

  ball we know it's not going to happen [TS]

  because all our heroes it's just odd [TS]

  that it was even there I just wish that [TS]

  I was an ok element I just wish they'd [TS]

  clarify as usual he just we'd just did [TS]

  not want to define anything and really [TS]

  settle on anything it makes sense if [TS]

  especially if you're going to be using [TS]

  shield in the future [TS]

  it makes sense to sort of established [TS]

  here is what shield actually is there [TS]

  not a law unto themselves are not a [TS]

  bunch of rogues are financed by I don't [TS]

  know [TS]

  tungsten mind from alien the alien slave [TS]

  camps or they are actually there's [TS]

  there's some sort of a joint the joint [TS]

  decision of the will of the above world [TS]

  governments say we need a way to sort of [TS]

  combat threats that we can't directly go [TS]

  through for individual like un sort of [TS]

  stuff that I sort of inferred that [TS]

  that's what was going on there's some [TS]

  sort of an advisory council that has to [TS]

  approve what shield does even though [TS]

  fury has a whole bunch of autonomy but [TS]

  as were saying about an hour [TS]

  so there's so much that we just have to [TS]

  fill in it is this is this is the madlib [TS]

  script where there's like there's a line [TS]

  that we have to pick a verb to describe [TS]

  exactly what's happening sort of settle [TS]

  it in our minds we're sort of would hope [TS]

  the screenwriter would have written that [TS]

  down for us [TS]

  well i think you know you know [TS]

  everything you need to know what the [TS]

  fact that you know it's one of those [TS]

  guys is powers boothe it so it's gotta [TS]

  be it's gotta be bad [TS]

  sinister here so here's the thing if you [TS]

  are the member of a committee of some [TS]

  sort that hit that has international [TS]

  security ramifications you have a choice [TS]

  the guy when they're prepping your your [TS]

  your camera setup to have your screen [TS]

  the Helicarrier they say would you like [TS]

  to be lit from the front or the back if [TS]

  you choose the back that's a bad sign [TS]

  I just choose choose neither that's a [TS]

  bad sign that's like that's like saying [TS]

  we picked a logo for our organization [TS]

  and its a skull just no no bad idea [TS]

  let's not blame them it's probably skype [TS]

  doing some sort of auto exposure and [TS]

  screwing it up [TS]

  I just assumed it was a google hangout [TS]

  if this it is it's nick fury google [TS]

  hangout the most the most sinister [TS]

  google hang in there accidentally [TS]

  broadcasting it live to is the worst [TS]

  part [TS]

  wait is this is this way on the internet [TS]

  on the internet now [TS]

  oh crap yeah screening or five [TS]

  chatroulette guy the take baths was [TS]

  naked from the waist down what do you [TS]

  think we should do about these aliens up [TS]

  no we're not going to do that and you [TS]

  can just stop doing that right now [TS]

  you're so self scarlet witch's that you [TS]

  put your sequels take your mask off and [TS]

  put your top back home [TS]

  ok so we are going to close that what [TS]

  this was very interesting but we're [TS]

  going to end it here [TS]

  I i want to thank my panel of [TS]

  superheroes who have come so far to talk [TS]

  about this fascinating and successful [TS]

  and yet you know divisive blue movie [TS]

  first off bu you heard him [TS]

  youyou saw him as a mild-mannered [TS]

  scientists and then he did indeed become [TS]

  as predicted a green rage monster and [TS]

  Enoch oh thank you for being here [TS]

  I think we agreed that I was Charles [TS]

  Anderson Winchester the person with [TS]

  superior surgical skills who some house [TS]

  seems aloof because of his inability to [TS]

  really connect with people i reject to [TS]

  this idea that I hope especially a [TS]

  friend going if you're gonna give me a [TS]

  franchise you're gonna be the franchise [TS]

  that failed twice as going to a third [TS]

  third field reboot I reject this count [TS]

  Gordon and a splash again this is your [TS]

  comment and not mine and debts as as [TS]

  with my comments about I'm trying to [TS]

  make him angry but he's not Latin [TS]

  rational and you're being emotional it's [TS]

  not know now he's turning into mr. Spock [TS]

  dr. strange more like it [TS]

  it's fair who've in alta I'll take dr. [TS]

  strange okay good i will that will take [TS]

  dr. strange thank you very much that was [TS]

  our iron man ben boychuk thank you been [TS]

  for being here [TS]

  a pleasure as always dan morgan who did [TS]

  you want to be I want you know I decides [TS]

  which i think i can be Coulson if you're [TS]

  going to be fury i think i should be [TS]

  Coulson that is I mean I got shot at [TS]

  this is your last podcast yes it will [TS]

  never be back at least we are choosing [TS]

  to be male characters I wouldn't advise [TS]

  it can I be the Enchantress ok so my so [TS]

  Dan more in my very own Agent Coulson it [TS]

  was nice knowing you it's a shame you're [TS]

  a week away from retirement and thanks [TS]

  for being here less at least I got to [TS]

  shoot looking ahead pleasure being your [TS]

  case and for whom i leaving out why it's [TS]

  john siracusa who I don't even know who [TS]

  you were I think I ended up actually [TS]

  picking Scarlett Johansson's character [TS]

  whose name I can't remember the Black [TS]

  Widow forgettable our own black widow [TS]

  John siracusa that's me [TS]

  thanks for being here thank you Jason [TS]

  thanks for not thanks for being the [TS]

  sidekick to captain bring-down instead [TS]

  of being captain bring-down it was new [TS]

  and different interesting [TS]

  we're not bringing it down we're keeping [TS]

  it real keep it real [TS]

  excellent that just simply there's a car [TS]

  waiting outside that will take you to a [TS]

  facility that can help you with this [TS]

  Joss Whedon problem but it will only [TS]

  take you there if you yourself agree [TS]

  that this job sweden first fixation is [TS]

  starting to destroy your life and the [TS]

  lives of those around you and this is [TS]

  the time for me to ask you yes or no [TS]

  will you get into that car Jason and I i [TS]

  feel i don't need to get in the car [TS]

  because the beautiful thing about the [TS]

  podcast as therapy wait for my book on [TS]

  podcasts therapy will be out next spring [TS]

  once the podcast is done and the [TS]

  recording session ends i will awake [TS]

  refreshed and will not remember anything [TS]

  about this and will be completely healed [TS]

  like this was a beautiful three [TS]

  exactly i can quit anytime I like [TS]

  that's right podcasts are what keep me [TS]

  sane [TS]

  I get watch your netflix another season [TS]

  of dollhouse I can't watch you do tho [TS]

  cell [TS]

  oh here's a protip don't watch any [TS]

  season of dollhouse [TS]

  anyway I'm gonna make just waiting tank [TS]

  but that's okay [TS]

  they wouldn't like me when I'm angry or [TS]

  I wouldn't like them when they're i I've [TS]

  lost that anyway another couple coats [TS]

  over their heads we can see you we can't [TS]

  hear you dead end [TS]

  so thank you all for being here and [TS]

  thanks for this great discussion of the [TS]

  Avengers and until our next episode of [TS]

  the incomparable thanks listeners for [TS]

  tuning in I'm Jason Snell see you next [TS]

  time [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  [Music] [TS]