The Incomparable

83: Nothing Ever Ends on Taco Tuesday

 

  the intemperate or podcast number eight [TS]

  every Morris well get well [TS]

  welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

  on your host Jason snow and tonight [TS]

  we're going to be talking about one of [TS]

  my very favorite books i guess you could [TS]

  say of all time it is the now-legendary [TS]

  DC Comics alan moore and dave gibbons [TS]

  production of watchmen first published [TS]

  in nineteen eighty-six by DC Comics it [TS]

  does not use any of the traditional DC [TS]

  superheroes instead it's sort of a [TS]

  skewed version of originally some comic [TS]

  book heroes from a different comic book [TS]

  company that DC acquired in a [TS]

  interesting kind of intellectual [TS]

  property transaction which is ironic [TS]

  given what is happening with the [TS]

  watchman today which is that DC is using [TS]

  their intellectual property to make [TS]

  prequels to alan moore and dave given [TS]

  seminal book watchman we will talk about [TS]

  that later on but we're going to focus [TS]

  most of the the podcast today on [TS]

  watchman itself the original work from [TS]

  1986 joining me to discuss watchman [TS]

  famous most the most applauded comic [TS]

  book I think of all time probably are [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser hi Lisa hiring doing [TS]

  great thanks for being here [TS]

  Steve Lutz is also here hi Steve howdy [TS]

  Jason get the doctor [TS]

  nice talking to you too thanks for being [TS]

  here and we have been Boychuk I been her [TS]

  please do this entire podcast in a [TS]

  monotone there that would be that would [TS]

  be something and also joining us our own [TS]

  nite owl i don't really know where i'm [TS]

  going with their Tony similar hi Tony [TS]

  hi alright so watchman uh my wife likes [TS]

  to make fun of me and for many things [TS]

  but about watchmen about my watchman [TS]

  obsession i have at last count i think i [TS]

  have four copies of watchmen in [TS]

  different forms [TS]

  I've got the original issues the pic the [TS]

  trade paperback the original trade [TS]

  paperback a book club edition hardcover [TS]

  of the original know of the original [TS]

  trade paperback a book cover and then [TS]

  and then the absolute edition which came [TS]

  out a few years ago I did [TS]

  I was at the height of my comic book [TS]

  collecting a period in 1986 when [TS]

  watchman came out and in fact I saw [TS]

  promo for it in the newsletter from the [TS]

  comic book shop where I where I bought [TS]

  my comics and and as a result i can [TS]

  actually say and this is one of the very [TS]

  few times that I've been on the ground [TS]

  floor of something that's notable i [TS]

  bought watchman number one when it came [TS]

  out so so I got to read it i would say [TS]

  over 12 months but as anybody who read [TS]

  the original issues knows the 12 issue [TS]

  didn't come out after one month you get [TS]

  away two months to get that final [TS]

  conclusion to the story so over 13 [TS]

  months i read that story and then have [TS]

  read it you know in book form since then [TS]

  and I thought I would start there which [TS]

  is to ask you guys about what your kind [TS]

  of personal relationship with this with [TS]

  this book is did you read it early on [TS]

  did you discover later [TS]

  I'm just I'm I'm kind of curious how you [TS]

  all came to to read watchmen Lisa why [TS]

  don't we start with you i read the trade [TS]

  paperback in 1987 on a model un school [TS]

  trip um got no good did story gets [TS]

  better on [TS]

  I don't know how it could be lonely [TS]

  enough than the the young men with whom [TS]

  I was some on the Syria delicate [TS]

  delegation from other didn't didn't want [TS]

  me to read it because they were afraid [TS]

  it would offend my delicate female [TS]

  sensibilities on account of you know [TS]

  with the rape and the the dog murdering [TS]

  and other violence and mayhem and so on [TS]

  and so forth [TS]

  dog were during its number two for you [TS]

  that's just didn't want to deserve [TS]

  anything else [TS]

  um this is true so it was aight i [TS]

  actually never physically grabbing the [TS]

  book from from one of them and then [TS]

  running to the back of the the school [TS]

  bus and sitting in the back of the bus [TS]

  in and reading through it once and then [TS]

  having to stop and look out the window [TS]

  for a bit and then reading it again to [TS]

  make sure i have understood what i just [TS]

  read and then you demanded to be put on [TS]

  the delegation from Antarctica was this [TS]

  event actually in Syria it seems like [TS]

  kind of a long bus ride [TS]

  i wiii i was living in Northern Virginia [TS]

  the time i think it was in southern [TS]

  Virginia and the school bus had a meet [TS]

  what basically a governor the school bus [TS]

  headed governor so couldn't go more than [TS]

  55 miles an hour [TS]

  oh wow yeah long bus ride [TS]

  022 reads on a long bus ride yeah yeah [TS]

  when it blew my mind because it was like [TS]

  it was unlike anything I had I had ever [TS]

  read [TS]

  yeah yeah well so so we'll come back to [TS]

  that but moving on to Steve what about [TS]

  you [TS]

  well I was not a big comic book guy as a [TS]

  kid but I was I was fairly well-versed [TS]

  in some stuff like amazing spider-man [TS]

  and Fantastic Four [TS]

  I think I had a few Howard the Duck [TS]

  issues and God help me Archie comics but [TS]

  i remember back in 86 my nerdy friends [TS]

  were all talking about about watchmen [TS]

  and how awesome this character mainly [TS]

  this character Rorschach was and so I [TS]

  figured what the hell there was a comic [TS]

  book store just down the street from the [TS]

  school so I I i stopped in one day and I [TS]

  picked up issues 2 and 3 which were the [TS]

  ones that were out at the time so I was [TS]

  in fact in on the ground floor or at [TS]

  least you know halfway between right the [TS]

  mezzanine you were in on the mezzanine [TS]

  of watchmen yes message and that's right [TS]

  we're stopped in for some bacon martinis [TS]

  before proceeding [TS]

  yes anyway yeah so I picked up two and [TS]

  three and and was enthralled and [TS]

  unfortunately one issue one was already [TS]

  pretty much sold out everywhere though I [TS]

  say everywhere but I really had no idea [TS]

  since there was no internet back in [TS]

  those heady days and I so really had no [TS]

  no means of knowing whether you could [TS]

  find it anywhere else but I so I didn't [TS]

  get hold of that until several months [TS]

  later at which point it ended up costing [TS]

  me something like nine box which was [TS]

  unheard of at the time but I was pretty [TS]

  jazzed to get it and and to this day [TS]

  watchman is the the one and only thing [TS]

  well technically the only only 12 things [TS]

  that i have ever bagged and boarded [TS]

  wow that's so you were at your hook to [TS]

  that point also got all the next issues [TS]

  is it as they came out i did and and I [TS]

  suffered along with you waiting for for [TS]

  issue 12 at last issue oh man when we [TS]

  went to delays before 11 or 10 as well [TS]

  no I don't think so I I my recollection [TS]

  is that the and I actually at this point [TS]

  i live in the town without a comic shop [TS]

  so i actually got my comics mail order [TS]

  and i got them in a bundle once a month [TS]

  and there was a watchman in there every [TS]

  month and then that last month with that [TS]

  big cliffhanger there was no watchman in [TS]

  the Baja there was no internet for me to [TS]

  go on and register my disapproval back [TS]

  as kids that they used to be you just [TS]

  sort of silently raged in your room a [TS]

  simpler time you look at you looked [TS]

  actually i looked at the receipt in the [TS]

  receipt which is handwritten with the [TS]

  marks of like what comics you got under [TS]

  watchman it said it I believe somebody [TS]

  had written in pen delay is taking your [TS]

  fist feebly in your room next month that [TS]

  the issue is there so it wasn't so bad [TS]

  Tony what about you i first read [TS]

  watchmen as a young college student [TS]

  probably around the year 2000 and this [TS]

  was i dread basically kids comics before [TS]

  that as you know many years ago so I you [TS]

  know I dread like the arching internals [TS]

  and the Batman comics based off the [TS]

  batman cartoon series and then take it [TS]

  kind of a big break from comics in a [TS]

  good friend of mine who was basically [TS]

  majoring in comic-book curry great for [TS]

  comic book curry [TS]

  yeah it was an interesting school this [TS]

  is one of those make your own majors [TS]

  wasn't yes I did when I was not well so [TS]

  this friend you know put a copy of the [TS]

  the collected trades and in my hand and [TS]

  said you know I have to read this and i [TS]

  did i read it and basically one sitting [TS]

  stayed up all night reading it and that [TS]

  basically kind of relaunch my interest [TS]

  in comics it which is you know taking [TS]

  over a large chunk of my life since then [TS]

  at least a large chunk of my possessions [TS]

  by weight i'm having just moved my comic [TS]

  collection and I went on from that and [TS]

  spent you know that was baby the start [TS]

  of the summer and i spent basically all [TS]

  my disposable income for the rest of the [TS]

  summer on an immense number of comics [TS]

  that was all kind of kicked off by a by [TS]

  reading watchmen being totally sucked [TS]

  into it i like the idea of calculating [TS]

  your worldly possessions by weight [TS]

  well I just moved so what I know I know [TS]

  that would be a logical but I just like [TS]

  that idea of in general it's like yeah [TS]

  you know that thing that I like that's [TS]

  it there's too much of it by weight [TS]

  I mean I have you know I have a lot of [TS]

  board games and a lot of dvds but [TS]

  compared to like one box comic books oh [TS]

  yeah [TS]

  no they're heavy yeah yeah they're heavy [TS]

  alright so you you discovered the trade [TS]

  paperback [TS]

  yeah I was you know I a younger age than [TS]

  some people I guess it reintroduced you [TS]

  to comics which is interesting because [TS]

  for me and this is something about the [TS]

  about the the mid to late eighties [TS]

  comic-book scene and also and also [TS]

  honestly something about being a [TS]

  sixteen-year-old when it when reading [TS]

  this at 16 years old when your brain is [TS]

  developing and you're seeing patterns [TS]

  and you you seen complexities that maybe [TS]

  you didn't see before that i read [TS]

  watchmen and thought well what's the [TS]

  point and stopped and actually cancelled [TS]

  my comic book subscription for the [TS]

  little mail-order people and stopped [TS]

  reading comics for like 15 years because [TS]

  all of the other comics seemed so [TS]

  ridiculously i was already somewhat [TS]

  disillusioned by the kind of soap opera [TS]

  plots of these ongoing comics and I read [TS]

  this thing that tells the complete story [TS]

  and has all of these layers and the [TS]

  other comics I i just looked at them and [TS]

  and and thought but you know I give up [TS]

  and I and I literally stopped so it [TS]

  started you on the path and it stopped [TS]

  me [TS]

  watchmen there's a lot of symmetry in it [TS]

  you know one person's beginning is [TS]

  another person's and that is its [TS]

  symmetry amazing so Ben we didn't get to [TS]

  you [TS]

  what was your entrĂ©e into the world of [TS]

  watchmen very similar story to yours in [TS]

  1986 bought the monthly and on the [TS]

  ground floor in fact somewhere in my [TS]

  garage I think her or well somewhere i [TS]

  have some promo posters of the series [TS]

  invent them that came out before even [TS]

  the the issues hit-the hit the stands [TS]

  and so yeah every every month [TS]

  well II every week because I was so into [TS]

  comics at that time and i would [TS]

  dutifully make the trip to fantasy [TS]

  kingdom on olive avenue in burbank and [TS]

  and so I still have you know i still [TS]

  have the original series bagged and [TS]

  boarded I've got a battered trade [TS]

  paperback somewhere and then whenever [TS]

  the absolute edition came out my wife [TS]

  gave me that for for xmas that [TS]

  particular year so it's a good gift [TS]

  so yeah that's great gift [TS]

  after i got to the dark knight [TS]

  absolutely dark night saying the same [TS]

  year right and that was a big that was a [TS]

  big time for for comics so so when and [TS]

  and it's interesting Tony as somebody [TS]

  who's younger than the rest of us on [TS]

  this panel a little bit little bit um [TS]

  Skoosh the just a little just a little [TS]

  just a couple more substantial amount [TS]

  like a decade snapper he's got damn kids [TS]

  the 1i want to talk about being sort of [TS]

  disillusioned and why I'm interested in [TS]

  that symmetry as you point out I i think [TS]

  when some people i was talking to some [TS]

  people about watchmen and and I think we [TS]

  even had a conversation on our our [TS]

  little mailing list about this that from [TS]

  the perspective of today I think people [TS]

  who haven't been exposed to watch men [TS]

  there there's a possibility that they [TS]

  look at it and they say I don't get what [TS]

  it what it's what the big deal is [TS]

  well I've had that conversation with [TS]

  people right and i think that I can [TS]

  totally see that it's interesting I mean [TS]

  I think it's a great work that still [TS]

  works really well but if you're [TS]

  especially well versed in in comics or [TS]

  even if you've just seen a lot of comic [TS]

  book themed movies now you this is one [TS]

  of those great examples of you know [TS]

  after something is so influential that [TS]

  everybody everything that's done after [TS]

  it is like it it doesn't seem that big [TS]

  deal unless you when you look at it [TS]

  unless you realize that it was sort of [TS]

  the first or one of the first to do what [TS]

  it did as as a comic book reader in 1986 [TS]

  in 1987 I looked at it and my reaction [TS]

  literally was what's the point of all [TS]

  these other comic books because they're [TS]

  so they just they pale in comparison and [TS]

  today's comics you know there's still [TS]

  lots of bad comics and lots of good [TS]

  comics but one thing that I will say [TS]

  because i have started reading comics [TS]

  again in the last few years is they they [TS]

  don't the things that watchman taught me [TS]

  were awful about all the other comics [TS]

  that stuff has been corrected in many [TS]

  places in many ways because of the [TS]

  influence of watchmen so I actually [TS]

  think that is over over time and ended [TS]

  up having a positive impact but at that [TS]

  point it was so good that I felt like [TS]

  you know drop the mic and walk away [TS]

  it's just like you know butBut comics [TS]

  have have a watchman has been [TS]

  influential so i can understand how [TS]

  people [TS]

  young whippersnappers might look at me [TS]

  like that yeah it's so it's a dark kind [TS]

  of story the toys with the archetypes of [TS]

  comic-book superheroes [TS]

  doesn't every comic do that cancer is in [TS]

  1986 no absolutely not it didn't happen [TS]

  that way I think you're going to read [TS]

  watchmen and understand why it was such [TS]

  a big deal and this would apply to [TS]

  people who didn't read the first time in [TS]

  1986 and who have benefited from [TS]

  approach will post watchman world read [TS]

  understanding comics first by scott [TS]

  mccloud because he has a lot of really [TS]

  good and interesting things to say about [TS]

  all the decisions that go into how [TS]

  comics are composed from page layout to [TS]

  panel size to panel layout to [TS]

  composition to the way the words and the [TS]

  images complement each other and one of [TS]

  the things that Eleanor does throughout [TS]

  this book alan moore and dave gibbons is [TS]

  they play with the idle time let's start [TS]

  where they play with the quality of [TS]

  nonlinear time that comics can amplify [TS]

  by by pointing out there's that whole [TS]

  thing where what's-his-face the guy with [TS]

  the blue and having massive penis on [TS]

  screen on dr. Manhattan is it really the [TS]

  Billy crudo him interesting things you [TS]

  remember I know this is after 16 ounces [TS]

  of wine folks [TS]

  um there's the this particular there's [TS]

  the signal where he takes her to Mars [TS]

  and he's trying to explain to her feeble [TS]

  female earth brain how he doesn't [TS]

  exactly live at one fixed point I'm [TS]

  going forward going back heat he kind of [TS]

  fixes his consciousness to whatever [TS]

  interests him in and for him time is [TS]

  just another dimension and there's one [TS]

  point where he actually explicitly says [TS]

  there is no future there is no past do [TS]

  you see and that panels like right [TS]

  middle of the page surrounded by all the [TS]

  rest and it's just a really nice [TS]

  back-and-forth interplay were where I'm [TS]

  Givens and more are reminding you that [TS]

  from you're omniscient perspective is [TS]

  the reader there is no future there is [TS]

  no past because you can see things [TS]

  unfolding in both directions on the page [TS]

  this end and it amplifies the point [TS]

  they're trying to make in the narrative [TS]

  and this happens repeatedly through the [TS]

  whole the whole text where all the all [TS]

  they do is is when they say something [TS]

  the images in the composition repeatedly [TS]

  under [TS]

  in it and you just get this magnificent [TS]

  feedback loop and it's something i [TS]

  didn't really fully appreciate until [TS]

  after i read understanding comics and [TS]

  began to understand that everything from [TS]

  gutter size to panel size affects the [TS]

  sentences that are going captions are or [TS]

  coming up people's mouths [TS]

  now one of the one of the things about [TS]

  watchmen that i love is that it does [TS]

  bear scrutiny and you can reread it [TS]

  every time I read it I noticed something [TS]

  i didn't use before every single time [TS]

  and that me just because I'm not [TS]

  particularly perceptive as a human being [TS]

  but be that as it may I think there's a [TS]

  lot there one thing pops out and and one [TS]

  of the things is you can appreciate the [TS]

  plot and you can appreciate the twist of [TS]

  the plot and the interesting take on [TS]

  superhero archetypes right but below [TS]

  that level there's like there's the [TS]

  fearful symmetry issue where all the [TS]

  panel's front back back to front are [TS]

  actually symmetric and in their layout [TS]

  and there's a spread in the center which [TS]

  is just I mean super comic-book nerdy [TS]

  and yet it's it's amazing and I'm just [TS]

  the way that the panel's these grid the [TS]

  grid layout that's used the way the way [TS]

  that works toward com is doing what [TS]

  they're calling the great Alan Moore [TS]

  reread and they posted as of this [TS]

  recording a couple of of parts of their [TS]

  I think they're going to four-part [TS]

  watchman as a part of this may they did [TS]

  the anatomy lesson in the the whole run [TS]

  of swamp thing and they did miracle man [TS]

  and they're going through basically the [TS]

  can in a valid more every week on [TS]

  tor.com and something that struck me [TS]

  about what they wrote about watchmen is [TS]

  they talked about the density of it and [TS]

  they said that they counted in one issue [TS]

  a hundred and ninety six panels of [TS]

  watchmen and no issue one there are a [TS]

  hundred ninety six panels and an average [TS]

  issue of a comic book from 2012 70 so so [TS]

  the complete the compression the the [TS]

  sheer density of the watchman is also [TS]

  amazing and kind of mind-blowing [TS]

  compared to today [TS]

  so you've got all these elements right [TS]

  you that you notice when you read it [TS]

  that it's not just the characters and [TS]

  applaud but everytime there are the [TS]

  details that the dave gibbons the leaves [TS]

  everywhere would likely behind at the [TS]

  very corner of some small panel [TS]

  somewhere there is a detail that's [TS]

  relevant [TS]

  it's a maze [TS]

  I i write it and so so just you can go [TS]

  as deep down into the nerdiness as as as [TS]

  you want and you will find stuff and [TS]

  that that's actually one of the things I [TS]

  love about it is that this isn't just [TS]

  like a story that they told it's al [TS]

  whole world that's been invented and [TS]

  infusing like every corner of every [TS]

  panel right that was one of the things [TS]

  that I I most loved about watchmen to [TS]

  reading it [TS]

  one issue at a time was that each [TS]

  26-page or so issue took like five days [TS]

  to really redo for me because I sit [TS]

  there and I did examine every single [TS]

  panel looking for the recurring motifs [TS]

  and we have triangles and the clocks and [TS]

  watches and then you know I go back and [TS]

  read you know issues when I got issue 4 [TS]

  5 and go back and read one through three [TS]

  again yeah pour over the same amount of [TS]

  time trying to find new new linkages [TS]

  between the motifs in the and you know [TS]

  try to find clues to the to the [TS]

  overriding story I did that almost every [TS]

  time you know you get issue 2 and you [TS]

  wanted to you could issue 3 and you [TS]

  wanted two and three [TS]

  that was the great the great advantage [TS]

  yeah i mean it really it highlights [TS]

  especially reading up that the trade [TS]

  paperback over the weekend it really [TS]

  highlights how much you lose by not [TS]

  having that one month to sort of stew [TS]

  over you know what happened in the last [TS]

  issue because it was such sweet agony to [TS]

  go over and over the the issue and [TS]

  trying to figure out what was going on [TS]

  and anticipate what was coming in the [TS]

  next month or two months I imagine it's [TS]

  like people who read Dickens see [TS]

  realized in the newspaper when it came [TS]

  out that Dickens you know Dickens novels [TS]

  were meant to be cliffhanger dan they [TS]

  were really more like what we would [TS]

  think of almost like a TV show today [TS]

  where they would be an installment and [TS]

  then there'd be a cliffhanger and you'd [TS]

  have to think about it this is why you [TS]

  should never read them as living in a [TS]

  little literature class the way that [TS]

  they're typically taught you should you [TS]

  stretch them out this and and this is I [TS]

  mean I always thought about Dickens when [TS]

  I was watching lost because i thought [TS]

  you know lost heads had its faults but [TS]

  but i think that they got beaten up for [TS]

  frustrating the the viewer but that was [TS]

  what it was all about is there's a [TS]

  chapter break and then you have to wait [TS]

  a week and in a book or our DVD set on [TS]

  you [TS]

  we've got all the episodes together is [TS]

  you can just go at your own pace and a [TS]

  TV show by installment you can't and the [TS]

  Dickens novel in the newspaper you [TS]

  couldn't and watch men there is [TS]

  something to be said that watchman was [TS]

  not built as a book it was built as 12 [TS]

  discrete elements with time separating [TS]

  them so you can actually consider what [TS]

  you just saw that said it does hang is a [TS]

  book which is more than you can say for [TS]

  a lot of trades when a serious is [TS]

  collected in narrative arcs i mean this [TS]

  this works on two different levels where [TS]

  I would have liked to have had the [TS]

  chance to read it issue by issue but [TS]

  having had a completely different [TS]

  experience from you guys and having read [TS]

  it in one big gulp and then reread it in [TS]

  one big gulp what sounds like you had [TS]

  enough time on this trip you could have [TS]

  taken a week between each and each [TS]

  chapter i had to write my position [TS]

  papers for first committee Syria to [TS]

  disarm it very seriously but it doesn't [TS]

  it does also hang together as a book [TS]

  especially with the interstitials [TS]

  because the interstitials add some depth [TS]

  to the bat and the back matter helps a [TS]

  lot [TS]

  yeah that yeah the back matter not only [TS]

  is it great on its own but it is a break [TS]

  between the chapters and a lot of [TS]

  comic-book collections [TS]

  you know you could you could almost in [TS]

  fact some cases I think they do you can [TS]

  just drop out the brakes and it's just [TS]

  one story and it may even be plotted [TS]

  that way watch men there isn't there is [TS]

  a time to reflect when you're reading [TS]

  through you know these book excerpts and [TS]

  files and other crazy stuff that's just [TS]

  again filling in the backs this rich [TS]

  backstory of this world you wouldn't [TS]

  know as much about Adrian Veidt without [TS]

  it right even with the back matter you [TS]

  couldn't get rid of you can get you [TS]

  couldn't eliminate that completely and [TS]

  watchmen because you would miss out on [TS]

  the on the covers which are just [TS]

  fantastic and panels in their own right [TS]

  and of course the the gradually dripping [TS]

  blood onto the clock on the back which [TS]

  is rife with symbolism as well so they [TS]

  couldn't really eliminate it altogether [TS]

  no matter what right knows and that's I [TS]

  mean they did keep those so when you go [TS]

  through the trade they've got them but [TS]

  it was that was it was a whole package [TS]

  it was quite a thing to read it any [TS]

  issue by issue format [TS]

  no doubt about it so so I'm i think that [TS]

  somebody touched on this earlier it is [TS]

  interesting that the most popular [TS]

  character in this [TS]

  and in some ways the most conventional [TS]

  and heroic in a in that he's a crime [TS]

  fighter and he's actually trying to [TS]

  solve the murder that caps off this [TS]

  story is a completely insane person is a [TS]

  psychopath and he's not only popular but [TS]

  right he's actually kind of the one [TS]

  who's being a hero and the only reason [TS]

  he's still a hero is because he's a [TS]

  lunatic which is interesting you know it [TS]

  you guys have thoughts about about [TS]

  Rorschach other than that he is crazy I [TS]

  guess I I don't have any friends that [TS]

  would describe him is really cool but [TS]

  I'm a traveling the wrong crowd to know [TS]

  that you're the right crowd but he's [TS]

  popular [TS]

  it makes an easy halloween costume not [TS]

  that hard to draw either if you can draw [TS]

  a hat your comfort [TS]

  so this is a commentary on on comic book [TS]

  superheroes that on one level that is [TS]

  really what this is about is sort of [TS]

  like trade try to place a comic book [TS]

  superhero ideas in the real world and so [TS]

  you've got are you got Rorschach who is [TS]

  who is crazy and really didn't become an [TS]

  effective superhero until he was [TS]

  completely crazy and we see why he is [TS]

  that way and you've got the the creation [TS]

  of the Minutemen and this attempt to [TS]

  create the the crime you basically could [TS]

  crimebusters that fails miserably and [TS]

  they print and the comedian burns up the [TS]

  map and and that the superheroes are [TS]

  outlawed and I mean that's one of the [TS]

  interesting things about this is that is [TS]

  that this is taking the shot genre that [TS]

  is meant for you know the superheroes [TS]

  are the are the prime Jonna in comics in [TS]

  our world although not in the world of [TS]

  the watchman which is also funny it's [TS]

  pirates but this watchman details them [TS]

  is just being completely like failed and [TS]

  messed up and just just aren't [TS]

  completely wreck of an idea of concept [TS]

  that a human being would be a hero [TS]

  well didn't more intend Rorschach to be [TS]

  didn't intend him to be the hero of the [TS]

  piece he intended him to be [TS]

  I've read sort of the villain of the [TS]

  piece in some ways and it certainly he [TS]

  writes Rorschach in a way that you [TS]

  wouldn't necessarily be a sip of that [TS]

  fear of a particular mindset [TS]

  this is a guy who you know in the first [TS]

  issue says you know used to you know [TS]

  he's he's discourse adan you know on the [TS]

  on the blood and the filth [TS]

  you know of the running through the [TS]

  streets and like like coke and little [TS]

  green bottles [TS]

  yeah hit it contrasts you know that the [TS]

  the men who who run the world in 1985 vs [TS]

  good men like his father who he never [TS]

  knew right and harry truman who dropped [TS]

  the a bomb on Japan right and you know [TS]

  this is a guy who you know throughout [TS]

  throughout the pieces is you know no [TS]

  compromise not even in the face of [TS]

  Armageddon right [TS]

  not it not a hero but but yet he does be [TS]

  heroic things and more I think want you [TS]

  to say yeah that's ridiculous [TS]

  and yet everybody and why not everybody [TS]

  but but you know it's funny that yeah [TS]

  everything he was the one he was the one [TS]

  character that that a lot of folks [TS]

  really latched onto and the comedian who [TS]

  was also kind of a bad guy i know i just [TS]

  well I do [TS]

  yeah he's a bad guy and yet at the same [TS]

  time he does get horribly murdered and [TS]

  and I I work up a little bit of sympathy [TS]

  for him when he's when he's sitting on [TS]

  the edge of Moloch's bed drunk and [TS]

  crying about how it how it went to his [TS]

  Madonna figurine my god even he even he [TS]

  is horrified by what he has stumbled [TS]

  upon right i mean he it's hard it's hard [TS]

  for the comedian not to be able to [TS]

  please a little your little sympathetic [TS]

  like why even this guy is messed up that [TS]

  that's that it must be bad i wanna let [TS]

  me post this because I it as I was [TS]

  rereading it you know there's some I [TS]

  can't remember now fight it was an issue [TS]

  that may have been issue 5 or issue for [TS]

  were where dr. Manhattan is is recalling [TS]

  nose is remembering and and and giving [TS]

  his assessment of a comedian and what he [TS]

  says is something to the effect of you [TS]

  Blake saw you know the horrors of the [TS]

  20th century and he just didn't care and [TS]

  he seemed to understand it [TS]

  best of all I mean eat what what he's [TS]

  what what what this godlike character [TS]

  saying about the comedian is you know [TS]

  of this motley crew of of characters [TS]

  that populate this this universe in [TS]

  watchmen maybe the comedian understood [TS]

  it [TS]

  best of all and there's that line about [TS]

  what happened the American Dream and the [TS]

  comedian says it came true you're [TS]

  looking at it [TS]

  no Abby this is this is one of the great [TS]

  things about it is that you've got [TS]

  Rorschach was not intended to be a hero [TS]

  but but the point is that he he does [TS]

  some typically heroic things and that [TS]

  he's trying to solve the crime and [TS]

  anyway she kinda has his act together in [TS]

  a way that the other characters clearly [TS]

  don't because the other characters or [TS]

  you know the kind of losers are sellouts [TS]

  and you know he's got that really [TS]

  strongly that he's introduced with the [TS]

  you know there's like four pages in a [TS]

  row with him kind of investigating the [TS]

  comedian's parties got a grappling hook [TS]

  he's got a grappling hook and his hips [TS]

  too and i mean it's it's a kind of the [TS]

  introduction there's no dialogue 44 [TS]

  pages it's not him like narrating his [TS]

  his exploration we just see him kind of [TS]

  you know moving through the apartment [TS]

  searching places although it is a hermit [TS]

  least once ye grunts and there's some [TS]

  other kind of you know but he's not like [TS]

  you know he's not required to narrate [TS]

  what he's doing to the audience or [TS]

  anything and then you know the other [TS]

  characters are kind of introduces you [TS]

  know i'll be looser or other kind of you [TS]

  know misfits um so even if he is [TS]

  basically crazy and um at least kinda [TS]

  seems to have at least his professional [TS]

  act more together than they do I guess [TS]

  well and he has a lot going for him in [TS]

  the end I think in that he's the only [TS]

  one that's that's that's willing not to [TS]

  put up with the madness that fight has [TS]

  exactly i mean he's easy only one [TS]

  willing to walk away from Omelas [TS]

  innocence or at least drag the rest of [TS]

  the world away from ominous with him so [TS]

  been here here's what that line as Blake [TS]

  is interesting i've never met someone [TS]

  I've never met anyone so deliberately [TS]

  amoral he suits the climate here in [TS]

  Vietnam the madness the pointless [TS]

  butchery as I come to understand Vietnam [TS]

  and what it implies about the human [TS]

  condition [TS]

  I also realize that humans will will [TS]

  permit themselves such an understanding [TS]

  Blake's different he understands [TS]

  perfectly and he doesn't care [TS]

  right well that goes into Morse whole [TS]

  thesis that anybody who gets into this [TS]

  business is going to be able cracked or [TS]

  get up two spaces effectively well you [TS]

  see it in the original incarnation where [TS]

  you had a hooded justice who gets killed [TS]

  after piece of rough trade and the [TS]

  original the original silk spectre is [TS]

  certainly not a model of well-adjusted [TS]

  anything right well it and then there's [TS]

  the the more you know but personal you [TS]

  no matter of dan dreiberg has has hung [TS]

  up his costume and he you know he's and [TS]

  he's the Batman analog right and and he [TS]

  he's got the amazing garage full of [TS]

  stuff that's gathering dust and he's [TS]

  he's imp and he's impotent until he puts [TS]

  on the costume and fights crime at which [TS]

  point his funeral [TS]

  what I think is interesting that both [TS]

  night al1 into is not how one gets [TS]

  brutally murdered [TS]

  it's just he writes this map he writes [TS]

  this memoir you know that we see under [TS]

  the hood and it it opens with it opens [TS]

  with a supposed to open the tragic [TS]

  anecdote he has to borrow from one that [TS]

  really is tragic and humiliating for [TS]

  somebody else and this is a guy who had [TS]

  kind of a middling to ok he happened to [TS]

  right he happened to right away if you [TS]

  would like that he was like the [TS]

  yahoo.com of the superhero and you know [TS]

  he gets out just in time he has a decent [TS]

  retirement is beaten to death and drugs [TS]

  all things considered you know and and [TS]

  driver picks it up and he's obviously [TS]

  just a rich kid who's looking for some [TS]

  kind of purpose or meaning and that the [TS]

  whole character both incarnation seem to [TS]

  be seeking for something that never [TS]

  gonna quit attained and they tell [TS]

  themselves a lot of self justify [TS]

  self-justifying delusions to to keep [TS]

  putting on the hood or to keep making a [TS]

  little their little love their little [TS]

  ships or or to direct a little memoir [TS]

  that they paid really dance around the [TS]

  issue of why they did it it's like you [TS]

  said that there's there's the whole [TS]

  impotence issue and I think you're [TS]

  supposed or I came away from it I've [TS]

  always going from it just being coupled [TS]

  disgusted and I'm sorry for those kids [TS]

  from for both incarnations of 9l you [TS]

  know there's almost nothing to recommend [TS]

  them as people which is ironic because [TS]

  he ends up with the girl [TS]

  well-well dreiberg is trying writing he [TS]

  hang he hangs it up because it's been [TS]

  outlawed and and you can see that he had [TS]

  he really did have nothing else in his [TS]

  life but now right this is filling up [TS]

  from fulfilling and he's filling a hole [TS]

  by [TS]

  by having this this superhero life and [TS]

  so he jumps back in it at the end and [TS]

  yes he does get the girl so nice [TS]

  it'sit's see strikes me the marriage of [TS]

  convenience who actually the what [TS]

  Hollis Mason is he not the only [TS]

  character in either the Minutemen or the [TS]

  you know what would have been the [TS]

  crimebusters who got into it exclusively [TS]

  because he wanted to fight crime and not [TS]

  because he had some perversity or yeah [TS]

  he didn't have any kids [TS]

  if that's what you're asking he didn't [TS]

  have any kinks so far as we know [TS]

  yeah so far as we know yeah everybody's [TS]

  ruffling through their copies its jack [TS]

  nice and i think i think about and I [TS]

  think the fact that he I think the fact [TS]

  that his life ends the way it does is [TS]

  supposed to tell you that that you don't [TS]

  even that this is not a business forum [TS]

  for normal well-adjusted people at all [TS]

  yeah what good it does you so so do what [TS]

  a maybe talk about dr. Manhattan a [TS]

  little bit interesting interesting [TS]

  character he has he's naked [TS]

  we get to see his little his a little [TS]

  depends on the size sizes variable with [TS]

  dr. Manhattan his penis is blue penis in [TS]

  my defense that my first impression was [TS]

  on a movie screen so there's there's [TS]

  there's magnifying effects well sure we [TS]

  can talk about the weather that was CGI [TS]

  or not for poor old Billy Crudup you [TS]

  know it's interesting i was actually [TS]

  reading up on on some of the wikipedia [TS]

  stuff and found it interesting that [TS]

  Givens was concerned about actually [TS]

  showing the full-frontal with the penis [TS]

  because you know it well I he [TS]

  deliberately makes it small to make it [TS]

  seem like more classical sculpture that [TS]

  is not the approach they took in the [TS]

  movies [TS]

  he's worried about that but there are [TS]

  boobs like every other frame [TS]

  interesting double standard from the [TS]

  eighties yeah from the eighties have [TS]

  he's honest reason for ya [TS]

  forever yeah so he is he is a [TS]

  essentially omnipotent he other than if [TS]

  there's a pulse of tachyons in which [TS]

  case he gets confused but you know he's [TS]

  seeing time in a different way from the [TS]

  rest of us [TS]

  he's the only character in this in the [TS]

  story with actual superpowers to which [TS]

  is interesting and their horrifying they [TS]

  are horrifying and when he changes he [TS]

  changes i mean the balance of power in [TS]

  the world it really is i mean there's [TS]

  not lying about the Superman is real and [TS]

  he's American i mean this is this is a [TS]

  take on on on Superman in a way which is [TS]

  if there was a guy who appeared who have [TS]

  these incredible powers and he was an [TS]

  American would that not change the [TS]

  balance of power and more takes it all [TS]

  the ways is then we sent them to Vietnam [TS]

  you know we we didn't we didn't say oh [TS]

  well this is he's gonna work for the [TS]

  good of humanity was like no he's gonna [TS]

  do what we wanted to do so you know it I [TS]

  I always always thought that was a [TS]

  really strange and interesting character [TS]

  to have walking among all the other [TS]

  characters in this doctor because he is [TS]

  he is if of for the most part almost a [TS]

  cipher and the back material reveals [TS]

  that the original quote was actually God [TS]

  exists and he is American which which [TS]

  makes it even more horrifying i like how [TS]

  I like having read them out basically i [TS]

  think i think there's no other way could [TS]

  have ended them with him saying screen [TS]

  manatee i'm off to something that's [TS]

  worth my time in my talents right but [TS]

  he's got the part that perspective at [TS]

  the end which is which is like the line [TS]

  of the the line of the book right [TS]

  nothing ever ends [TS]

  Adrian which is it's so true we've we've [TS]

  taken this entire plot and then it's so [TS]

  obvious and of course it's actually he's [TS]

  Ozymandias right and the whole idea of [TS]

  air is the shelley problem about the [TS]

  crumble the empire that used to be there [TS]

  and he's taking this is this incredible [TS]

  monument to his greatness and and dr. [TS]

  Manhattan the guy with the eternal [TS]

  perspective lays down the lays down a [TS]

  few that this is not the you know it's [TS]

  not the end of the story because there [TS]

  aren't such things as ends of stories [TS]

  that just doesn't happen but a couple [TS]

  is a couple issues earlier the sweetest [TS]

  thing in here proving that Alan Moore is [TS]

  actually a soft and hard that one of my [TS]

  favorite things about dr. Manhattan is [TS]

  the thing that is the thing that [TS]

  convinces him that he can intervene [TS]

  which is this sort of the simple story [TS]

  that is the story of every human life [TS]

  which is that you know who could have [TS]

  predicted that what would have happened [TS]

  you know and it which was with blake and [TS]

  laurie smith mother to create him and to [TS]

  create her and the the this video sperm [TS]

  the one sperm to fertilize the one egg [TS]

  and this chain that goes back through [TS]

  every parent throughout human history [TS]

  and you know Alan Moore as as cynical [TS]

  guys he can often be is really saying [TS]

  there that you know every human being is [TS]

  a miracle every human being is kind of [TS]

  an amazing through thermodynamic it's a [TS]

  miracle that that it that one slight [TS]

  change and you would not exist it it's [TS]

  you know the and I i think that's a kind [TS]

  of an interesting almost happy thing to [TS]

  find in the midst of the bleakness of [TS]

  this of this story although it struck me [TS]

  reading at this time that it's it seems [TS]

  a little odd that he hadn't picked up on [TS]

  that before [TS]

  intel Lori told her her story about her [TS]

  own lineage he's focused on his blue [TS]

  business his things [TS]

  le he spends all his time on Mars [TS]

  focused on the chaotic landscape as he's [TS]

  you know shaping his glass castle its it [TS]

  just seems a bit odd that having spent [TS]

  as much time as he did on earth and in [TS]

  the presence of of lori that he had not [TS]

  got that connection before until you [TS]

  know at the crucial moment in chapter 7 [TS]

  or whatever it is they're tachyons he [TS]

  was distracted or you could I mean [TS]

  perhaps it's I mean the kind of the art [TS]

  that dr. Manhattan coaster is that he [TS]

  kind of loses more and more touch with [TS]

  humanity and the understanding for even [TS]

  the people around him until perhaps then [TS]

  he reaches this point where he sees them [TS]

  as you know not just these ants but [TS]

  these kind of miraculous combinations of [TS]

  fascinating against PS fascinating and [TS]

  that are exactly you know the way they [TS]

  are and lower is the only one he's got [TS]

  any any connection with at all left at [TS]

  that point and so but heard the truth [TS]

  the facts of her birth [TS]

  so the thing that that that you know [TS]

  finally make him snap out of it a little [TS]

  bit at least realized that that even if [TS]

  he's way above humans that humans do [TS]

  have some sort of relevance let me throw [TS]

  this at you [TS]

  this is this is from Grant Morrison's [TS]

  super gods and he has a longest section [TS]

  on watchman which he says the god of [TS]

  watchmen was far from shy he liked to [TS]

  muscle his way onto every panel every [TS]

  line he strutted into view with his blue [TS]

  in Oregon proud display but everywhere [TS]

  you look the watchmaker was on hand to [TS]

  present his glittering structure for our [TS]

  approval and aww just as Manhattan [TS]

  directed his own flawless crystal logic [TS]

  machine to lay out to lay out the law to [TS]

  a distraught Lori in this Manning Lee [TS]

  intricate engine of story [TS]

  the god of watchmen could not hide and [TS]

  beg for our attention at every page turn [TS]

  he was a jealous maker who refused to [TS]

  allow any of his creations to be smarter [TS]

  than he was so the passive his genius [TS]

  became a genocide alidium the confident [TS]

  trained psychiatrist was reduced to a [TS]

  gibbering wreck by their darkness and [TS]

  the sole of his patient the detective [TS]

  stumbled through the plot to their doom [TS]

  and even the more or less divine [TS]

  superhuman was shown to be emotionally [TS]

  retarded and ineffectual it was as if [TS]

  God had little more than contempt for [TS]

  his creations and gave them no [TS]

  opportunity to transcend the limits he'd [TS]

  set for them at first you kinda might [TS]

  think that he was talking about in [TS]

  Manhattan there but he's actually [TS]

  talking about more [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah that that's that's really [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  I mean it is this is this is the this is [TS]

  the story right is that everybody is is [TS]

  completely ineffectual and you know I I [TS]

  guess I it's worth asking the question [TS]

  then which is how you know how do you [TS]

  guys read as great and intricate and [TS]

  interesting as this work is you know [TS]

  what is it what is its meaning to you [TS]

  does it it [TS]

  how does it you know what meaning does [TS]

  it have for you beyond just being [TS]

  interesting and and carefully [TS]

  constructed and having an inn [TS]

  packed on the John read that it's in I [TS]

  thought the lesson of Washington's that [TS]

  nothing matters huh [TS]

  I kid that's that's what I took that [TS]

  nothing in the adolescent I took was [TS]

  that comic books aren't any good except [TS]

  for blood yet but I should just give up [TS]

  give up everyone give up a lesson is [TS]

  that common tell really great stories [TS]

  well more didn't really set out to to [TS]

  produce a meeting as far as as far as [TS]

  what I've read [TS]

  hehe wanted to you know take the comic [TS]

  medium somewhere new wine and maybe blow [TS]

  up superhero no superhero trappings [TS]

  along the way right tell what if story [TS]

  the germ of his idea was he thought it [TS]

  would be interesting to see what would [TS]

  happen if he took these existing [TS]

  charlton characters and and and me and [TS]

  threw them into a realistic setting you [TS]

  know any meaning that arose out of that [TS]

  it i think is almost entirely [TS]

  coincidental [TS]

  nothing ever ends Steve well there is [TS]

  that maybe that's our lesson or maybe [TS]

  the lesson is that there's nothing you [TS]

  want to [TS]

  well it isn't all that much I you know [TS]

  and this is kinda blue and this is kind [TS]

  of why for me the work you know as as [TS]

  much as it meant to me it meant more to [TS]

  me when I was 16 and maybe when I was in [TS]

  my twenties and it does now that I'm 40 [TS]

  and it's well it's one of those books [TS]

  that it you know it's it's you read it [TS]

  and that you know you'll never forget [TS]

  the first time you read a story like [TS]

  this [TS]

  yeah re i remember vividly you know [TS]

  going over that the first just the first [TS]

  few issues i was just completely [TS]

  engrossed and captivated and I and and [TS]

  you know it it just blows your mind [TS]

  right i mean you're cute and you know [TS]

  your your teenager and this is this is [TS]

  exciting and new [TS]

  but over time I'm you have i read it i [TS]

  read it again carefully right before the [TS]

  movie came out and the the one the the [TS]

  great impression I was left with was [TS]

  this is really kind of a relic of of the [TS]

  eighties and allow you know a lot of [TS]

  this stuff is kinda hokey [TS]

  and maybe not so as smart as I remember [TS]

  it being and I think that just comes [TS]

  with with time and experience in reading [TS]

  and and your perspective on things [TS]

  changes but so for me I I'm a kind of [TS]

  ambivalent about the book now I I you [TS]

  know 20 years ago I I was much more [TS]

  passionate about it and I and I i I'll i [TS]

  loved it and now I think my order has [TS]

  has cooled greatly then would you think [TS]

  what you said this book has a real cold [TS]

  war sensibility to it [TS]

  oh yeah yeah I'm going to think that [TS]

  stands out for me when I do the reading [TS]

  is just this real polarity of this real [TS]

  sense that both sides will always be as [TS]

  they are and it completely dismisses the [TS]

  idea that something could happen as did [TS]

  happen in real life in 1989 going into [TS]

  the nineties something other than [TS]

  Armageddon right i mean yeah yeah yeah [TS]

  and and so there there's an there's a [TS]

  naivete about the book and so when you [TS]

  know to read it now is to save it's not [TS]

  quite as sophisticated as as I once [TS]

  thought and and so you know Ben when you [TS]

  hit your forties the order is the first [TS]

  thing to brother but it went like anyway [TS]

  I don't I I think I don't know about [TS]

  sophistication I guess what I would say [TS]

  is that is that part of the appeal of it [TS]

  is that it is that this is a story is an [TS]

  act of rebellion [TS]

  I think it is it is all and if you're [TS]

  reading it when you're 16 [TS]

  man that is the perfect time for it [TS]

  because it's all those comic books that [TS]

  you loved as a kid and that you're now [TS]

  getting in the mail once a month right [TS]

  I mean for me that was exactly what it [TS]

  was they are they they are day they [TS]

  don't bear any resemblance to reality [TS]

  they don't work logically that's not how [TS]

  it would be [TS]

  we're going to use this medium to [TS]

  destroy all of the you know the the the [TS]

  conventions that you've that they've had [TS]

  that all these beliefs that you've had [TS]

  about it and as as an act of rebellion [TS]

  is kind of a bomb placed in this in the [TS]

  genre that i've been reading since I was [TS]

  five years old [TS]

  it was incredibly effective effect is [TS]

  not only was that a bomb from 1987 but [TS]

  uh it changed the medium and the world [TS]

  has moved on so what were left with is [TS]

  you know that it was influential and [TS]

  that it's got a kind of a clever plot [TS]

  although even there the time sequence [TS]

  stuff has been beaten to death by modern [TS]

  narrative techniques right i mean it's [TS]

  quentin tarantino did you know made pulp [TS]

  fiction with with slices of of time out [TS]

  of order and every TV show and movie [TS]

  since then has has done that and so even [TS]

  the doctor manhattan stuff where it's so [TS]

  cool that he used time non-linearly it's [TS]

  like yeah it everybody we got it we got [TS]

  it right so it makes it very difficult [TS]

  to look at that at and so in some ways [TS]

  that the stuff that I've I discover when [TS]

  I reread it is not so much about the [TS]

  message or the meaning or the the plot [TS]

  even as much as the detail in the world [TS]

  and for that I I we've been talking [TS]

  about alan moore a whole lot but for [TS]

  that I i give a whole lot of credit to [TS]

  Dave Gibbons whoo-hoo the detail in the [TS]

  work especially if you look at the [TS]

  absolute collection is really kind of [TS]

  amazing and viewed on purely on that [TS]

  level i think this is a this is an [TS]

  amazing work i think more himself even [TS]

  said that he was discovering things you [TS]

  know that's later that he didn't he had [TS]

  no idea where their yeah yeah so i need [TS]

  to give it even if you some of that [TS]

  stuff has lost its power over time and [TS]

  it is much more something in our [TS]

  relative of the eighties in some ways [TS]

  even though it was incredibly [TS]

  influential still some of that some of [TS]

  that work that the Givens did is amazing [TS]

  and the absolute also we should say John [TS]

  Higgins the original colorist recolored [TS]

  it because the color technology in the [TS]

  eighties will apparently really terrible [TS]

  there's actually a great story about [TS]

  about that i think i think maybe in the [TS]

  absolute edition about how he had a [TS]

  recolor it digitally and it's that's the [TS]

  version that's used on the on the [TS]

  regular trade editions now is also using [TS]

  that special recolored and it they look [TS]

  much better so the shoutout to the [TS]

  colors but also just to get in [TS]

  the artist because that there's some [TS]

  amazing work in in the details of every [TS]

  panel of this of this book actually I'm [TS]

  really really glad you brought up John [TS]

  Higgins because i've i've always felt it [TS]

  was a bit of a shame that he didn't get [TS]

  an equal credit with that with Givens [TS]

  and more because his color work is just [TS]

  it's a major major part of what makes [TS]

  watchman great from one of the nice [TS]

  things about the recolor that they did [TS]

  for the absolute that is now the [TS]

  definitive version is I think that i [TS]

  think that morgan Gibbons basically said [TS]

  give humans are money and so they they [TS]

  paid him and he gave him a you know a [TS]

  share or gave him all the money i'm not [TS]

  sure but he he paid or maybe you got [TS]

  more share but basically that he [TS]

  recolored it using some modern [TS]

  techniques where he could heat their [TS]

  stuff that technically he couldn't do in [TS]

  86 and 87 that he was able to do and it [TS]

  looks great and he actually got paid [TS]

  because apparently got paid basically [TS]

  nothing for this being involved was and [TS]

  so it's actually really cool story and [TS]

  there's a book called watching the [TS]

  watchmen that came out about the same [TS]

  time as the absolute that's like a big [TS]

  coffee table book that's got lots of [TS]

  sketches and notes and some of alan [TS]

  moore script and that's for anybody who [TS]

  loves the story or who has spent you [TS]

  know 20 years living with it [TS]

  that's a that's not worth checking out [TS]

  too because there's a lot of great [TS]

  beautiful detail in that and a story [TS]

  about how it all came together we should [TS]

  talk about the movie briefly at least [TS]

  Lisa can get in her kicks but i wanted [TS]

  to start i want to start with then just [TS]

  to carry on with what you were saying [TS]

  before we set on a very early [TS]

  incomparable podcast we were talking [TS]

  about watchmen briefly and then you you [TS]

  made the provocative statement that the [TS]

  movie you know we always say things like [TS]

  well you know the book is still there [TS]

  it's not changing just because of the [TS]

  movie and you actually made the point [TS]

  that that the movie diminished your [TS]

  appreciation of the book [TS]

  yeah yeah so like I said if a couple of [TS]

  minutes ago I i reread the book before I [TS]

  saw the movie because i wanted to mean [TS]

  you know you gonna be ready [TS]

  yeah and you go into the idea that the [TS]

  book is always better than the movie and [TS]

  you you can understand after seeing the [TS]

  movie why more thought it could [TS]

  and be filmed and I and probably not in [TS]

  the way that you might think I i think [TS]

  it because it in some ways it's just [TS]

  it's just ridiculous on-screen and maybe [TS]

  maybe it's because of the will love the [TS]

  way you know maybe blame it on the [TS]

  director or whatever but no that's a [TS]

  start that's just the start in the role [TS]

  of blame [TS]

  I'm it that that movie you know they're [TS]

  there in the past 10 years there have [TS]

  been two movies that I've seen that have [TS]

  thrown me into a week-long depression [TS]

  the Phantom Menace was one and watchmen [TS]

  was the other one but but the problem is [TS]

  that when you see this stuff act the [TS]

  stuff that does that that's on the page [TS]

  that you know that you you've studied [TS]

  that you've you know you've gotten that [TS]

  the ink on your on your fingers reading [TS]

  so much and you go back and then you [TS]

  actually see it interpreted and put on [TS]

  the screen and you realize just how kind [TS]

  of dumb advice whole scheme really is [TS]

  yeah and then you kind of think Jesus [TS]

  this is this is it this is it and so [TS]

  yeah and the worst is the dialogue I [TS]

  mean what what looks good on the page [TS]

  sounds unbelievably stilted when it [TS]

  comes out of people's mouths yeah and [TS]

  and now so it it it it it because it and [TS]

  because i think you know you have now [TS]

  you have you have Rorschach's voice well [TS]

  I always imagined his voice being [TS]

  something very different from what [TS]

  Jackie Earle Haley did and he has [TS]

  actually pretty good movie but but now [TS]

  it's it's jackie earle haley voice and [TS]

  not when you look at the book and and of [TS]

  course there are other problems with the [TS]

  book and the biggest is that that Lori [TS]

  gets the line at the of the book yet [TS]

  john told me something once when we were [TS]

  eating tacos so I don't know nothing [TS]

  ever changes [TS]

  a lighter and you know yeah John I've [TS]

  I've reached the end of my taco nothing [TS]

  ever ends Lori yeah [TS]

  oh here are you gonna do that that set [TS]

  its bottomless taco night [TS]

  what are you talking about nothing ever [TS]

  ends but code taco Charlie's gonna do [TS]

  today that said making the the most of [TS]

  the significant change that snider made [TS]

  in you know translating it from book to [TS]

  screen which was basically blaming the [TS]

  whole thing on dr. Manhattan for getting [TS]

  yeah that makes a lot more sense to a [TS]

  giant oculus thank you God bless you and [TS]

  you know what though is as dopey as all [TS]

  the rest of it seems when put up on the [TS]

  screen i don't think the giant octopus [TS]

  would come off that poorly Lisa have [TS]

  your kicks go for it [TS]

  yeah damn damn first of all if you're [TS]

  ever gonna watch the movie leave after [TS]

  the credits because the credits the best [TS]

  part of that the credits are great [TS]

  oh my gosh I had such high expectations [TS]

  after watching that sequence because [TS]

  that sequence is such a distinct visual [TS]

  style and it provides this it really [TS]

  puts you in a frame of mind where you [TS]

  understand the Ark of superhero history [TS]

  as as takes place in this universe it's [TS]

  got a very it sucks you into this little [TS]

  bubble and your kind of expecting the [TS]

  whole motivated to do that it's the only [TS]

  bit of adaptation you could argue other [TS]

  than changing a lot of the end in the [TS]

  movie is that that's where the [TS]

  filmmakers actually sat down and thought [TS]

  we need to not be slavish how can we use [TS]

  this medium to tell a story quickly [TS]

  effectively evocatively and then you go [TS]

  from that distance that is big and dumb [TS]

  and let wet and loud and on fire and [TS]

  well and it is using every panel as the [TS]

  as the storyboards and is using every [TS]

  dialogue bubble as the dialogue as I [TS]

  don't think you should at this is where [TS]

  I think when you're doing an adaptation [TS]

  you really need to to to stress at adapt [TS]

  as guesses as the as the syllable to [TS]

  keep in mind for for any and all [TS]

  creative endeavor because you absolutely [TS]

  cannot transpose something that that [TS]

  place the strength of one medium into a [TS]

  completely different medium without [TS]

  considering the the deputies individual [TS]

  strengths my biggest complaint about [TS]

  this movie however is that they really [TS]

  really miss cast a lot of the roles and [TS]

  i will contend until I'm old and senile [TS]

  and [TS]

  and Adrian Lori most particularly I oh [TS]

  yeah oh yeah no I'm agent has been [TS]

  played by Tom Cruise or somebody who is [TS]

  Tom Cruise like iso a feat horrible he [TS]

  was crazy German ich accent thing yeah [TS]

  but he's like a gyro weenie you know its [TS]

  just oh hey now's the time on sprockets [TS]

  when we dance he has that kind of you [TS]

  know no clown seed and in the book the [TS]

  thing that thing is so creepy about [TS]

  Adrian in the book is he tries so hard [TS]

  to be personable and he tries so hard to [TS]

  be this charming approachable Superman [TS]

  all time all time and space aside young [TS]

  Robert Redford's there is Adrian right i [TS]

  mean he is friendly and and attractive [TS]

  and he's your buddies and he's really [TS]

  into a death roll from twilight zone to [TS]

  kill you [TS]

  ya know I still think tom cruise because [TS]

  yeah got it that is kind of what Tom [TS]

  Cruise has going for him is hey I'm a [TS]

  star and I'm approachable and you see [TS]

  you pal around with people and there's [TS]

  something about him that still sits your [TS]

  teeth on edge will kill you tackles and [TS]

  I totally think that's just see new I [TS]

  totally think that would work for this [TS]

  movie and I think he was actually [TS]

  interested in Lori they just cast [TS]

  somebody who looked good and couldn't [TS]

  act sad she fit the said that character [TS]

  deserve better [TS]

  right well now I did the character [TS]

  deserve better they did the same thing [TS]

  they do every time they could cast any [TS]

  woman superhero which is they go for [TS]

  somebody who will fill out only at are [TS]

  not looking at that as opposed to like a [TS]

  mixed martial arts fighter or some or [TS]

  somebody who'd be built like an actual [TS]

  professional who uses her body to kill [TS]

  people but it goes back to the slavish [TS]

  devotion to the source material right [TS]

  they needed to get somebody who looked [TS]

  like Lori so that's what they did [TS]

  unfortunately they don't make them look [TS]

  that look like Lori but can act [TS]

  apparently no no one there's that [TS]

  realism that aren't enough actresses in [TS]

  Hollywood I guess whether there's the [TS]

  the whole realism of comics that comes [TS]

  into question to which is which is if [TS]

  you're a tough beating up you know [TS]

  beating up crooks crimefighter would you [TS]

  wear an outfit like that and would you [TS]

  look like that and chances are neither [TS]

  of those things is is true I i think i [TS]

  wrote at the time i actually wrote a i [TS]

  found that the other day a blog post [TS]

  about after I'd seen this movie which I [TS]

  actually saw with Lisa it was always so [TS]

  it's Phil who is completely ignore [TS]

  have baffled those never read it and he [TS]

  refused to read it beforehand he said I [TS]

  don't want to read that I just want to [TS]

  go in to assess it as a movie yeah that [TS]

  they had that had that work out for you [TS]

  know I'm kind of great actually [TS]

  yeah so so my feeling about it is that [TS]

  it's actually not that different even [TS]

  though I i spend a little more [TS]

  positively than you and Ben I i think it [TS]

  were not that far off by feeling is with [TS]

  the exception of some casting I think [TS]

  it's about as good as a move an [TS]

  adaptation of watchmen could probably be [TS]

  at least in the two to three-hour movie [TS]

  format right only in the sense and and [TS]

  basically that means I'm agreeing with [TS]

  that i'm not sure it if I i think this [TS]

  is about what you could do if you wanted [TS]

  to do it and look it you know judge it [TS]

  as it is it kind of doesn't work but [TS]

  they are not sure they could have made [TS]

  it work much better [TS]

  I to your point Steve I mean everybody [TS]

  who knows me and knows I've said this a [TS]

  million times which is adapting this is [TS]

  1212 episode series for HBO maybe [TS]

  would've worked [TS]

  yes at with those individual chapter [TS]

  breaks back but the fact is economically [TS]

  you know they just get them they don't [TS]

  usually do that anymore unless you're [TS]

  george RR martin i guess but I so so [TS]

  instead they made it to our movie out of [TS]

  it and and and it's it's you know it [TS]

  looks good and it's very slave Ashley [TS]

  devoted source material and yeah yeah [TS]

  the exception of sexy which is expanded [TS]

  from the source material and is terrible [TS]

  and is unwatchable is is one of the [TS]

  least sexy sex scenes in any movie ever [TS]

  they really should they should really [TS]

  should couple that with abstinence only [TS]

  education very everybody read your [TS]

  watchman and now watch this movie and oh [TS]

  god every don't even don't even have [TS]

  read watchmen just watch that one scene [TS]

  yeah then this is what awaits you every [TS]

  kids don't really know what to the [TS]

  internet with me [TS]

  so are we were with friends i actually [TS]

  genuinely enjoyed the movie i know [TS]

  that's that's that's an unusual opinion [TS]

  but as you may have gathered from past [TS]

  five cast episodes [TS]

  I'm a very simple man [TS]

  and to me just just the fact that i was [TS]

  i I was seeing these characters that I [TS]

  grew up with and love to put up on the [TS]

  screen by somebody who clearly loves [TS]

  them just as much like marionettes know [TS]

  there's something to that I've seen it [TS]

  I've seen it twice and we'll see it [TS]

  again so i don't i don't hate it I just [TS]

  you know I i would say i'm deeply [TS]

  ambivalent because I appreciate the a [TS]

  lot of the work that went into it and I [TS]

  feel like it was faithful and yet I i [TS]

  also look at it and think move really [TS]

  you know I just kind of feel like what's [TS]

  the point yeah well look it it wasn't [TS]

  League of Extraordinary Gentlemen it's [TS]

  never seen that I don't think I wanted [TS]

  the reading your spirit that's for sure [TS]

  never really ate it it was about as good [TS]

  as you could get with about with a two [TS]

  to three-hour adaptation I mean that my [TS]

  major beefs with some having issues with [TS]

  the caveat that the casting was was [TS]

  pretty bad [TS]

  my biggest beef was I didn't think this [TS]

  was something that you could show to a [TS]

  watchman virgin and expect them to have [TS]

  any idea what the heck was going on and [TS]

  I think that the directors cut on DVD i [TS]

  think mostly solves that problem so I [TS]

  mean I i really wanted to use it as an [TS]

  opportunity to to show it to friends of [TS]

  mine who would never [TS]

  who would never give the the trade [TS]

  paperback shot and and kind of use it [TS]

  hasn't has an opening to get them into [TS]

  watchman and discuss it but it really [TS]

  was useless on that front [TS]

  yeah I saw it with a group of friends [TS]

  who were not comics readers with [TS]

  familiar with comics movies and to them [TS]

  they just didn't really see the point [TS]

  right it to them it was sure you know [TS]

  inferior compared to the dark knight ur [TS]

  and other things like that which is [TS]

  unfortunate [TS]

  yeah yeah I i proceeded these motion [TS]

  comics versions of it that I actually [TS]

  thought were better in that in that they [TS]

  were trying to be faithful to the [TS]

  exactly faithful to the source material [TS]

  and Gibbons actually drew some extra [TS]

  stuff for them and you know that's what [TS]

  i showed my wife who is not a comic [TS]

  books reader and and I thought that I [TS]

  thought that went ok / okay with her I [TS]

  thought that was kind of a more [TS]

  effective way to tell that story and [TS]

  letters and whined and you know [TS]

  basically 1240 [TS]

  five-minute TV episodes using the [TS]

  original artwork with a basically a [TS]

  narrator whereas the movie it is all [TS]

  yeah i mean i-i can't judge it as as [TS]

  somebody who hasn't read the book right [TS]

  so ima make absolutely no sense to them [TS]

  and why wouldn't surprise me right and [TS]

  my other big beef was that it's just too [TS]

  completely obvious from the start that [TS]

  Adrian Veidt is the guy behind the plot [TS]

  I mean just that accent just drips guilt [TS]

  from c1 to the end [TS]

  Egypt's puppetmaster vibes yeah i did [TS]

  not get that when reading the book right [TS]

  i'm reading the story in the been the [TS]

  big [TS]

  big [TS]

  anything you know that that was that was [TS]

  that was a twist that worked for a [TS]

  although reading the book this time and [TS]

  trying to to trying to really catch on [TS]

  to all the clues and hints i can't [TS]

  believe i had not figured I know at the [TS]

  time it was actually / I know because [TS]

  they keep dropping the in our defense we [TS]

  were all young teenagers that's true but [TS]

  I'm gonna keep dropping things like in a [TS]

  pyramid deliveries and they've gone [TS]

  through how he has all the Egyptian [TS]

  stuff and is a yeah but you know you [TS]

  don't even notice a lot of that stuff [TS]

  it's well-balanced it feels clever [TS]

  without being obvious [TS]

  yeah yeah it doesn't it's not one of [TS]

  those home right cat-like plot twist [TS]

  that comes out of nowhere but when [TS]

  Allison Janney's his mom I don't get it [TS]

  what so so my last topic is the fact [TS]

  that they're making prequels in comic [TS]

  form and prepare to be depressed again [TS]

  before we watch men all my god watchman [TS]

  watchman baby watch the babies are back [TS]

  have you guys seen this saturday morning [TS]

  Watchmen clip that somebody put up on [TS]

  you do [TS]

  yeah it's off actually the the guy who [TS]

  put that together was a hairy Partridge [TS]

  who is the son of XTC frontman Andy [TS]

  partner huh interesting literally there [TS]

  wow so so obviously all the comic book [TS]

  geeks are in an uproar about this [TS]

  because they're there was a really [TS]

  interesting debate about it has been [TS]

  pointed out watchman itself was [TS]

  originally kind of started as a use of [TS]

  these charlton comic book characters [TS]

  thanks for pointing that out [TS]

  30 ok full credit to Steve as ray [TS]

  pointed out I'll ray is not with us [TS]

  anymore so the heat so that maybe [TS]

  they're making these prequels and and i [TS]

  don't i don't know what to think [TS]

  well eight years here's my view on that [TS]

  when they collect them all into you know [TS]

  a giant omnibus which they will which [TS]

  they will a different ways time all day [TS]

  i will go to the barnes and noble [TS]

  assuming the barnes and noble is still [TS]

  in business right [TS]

  and assuming the shrink-wrap has been [TS]

  ripped off one of the copies i will flip [TS]

  through it and if it attracts me then [TS]

  I'll buy it but otherwise otherwise they [TS]

  can go straight to the devil full full [TS]

  the DC they they are getting a by large [TS]

  well thought of writers and artists to [TS]

  do this the end they're not and they're [TS]

  trying to take care with it and it's [TS]

  kind of nice that they waited whatever [TS]

  25 years to do it and give it some room [TS]

  to breathe at the same time you know it [TS]

  is they own the copyright on it and I [TS]

  you know they're they're not making a [TS]

  sequel right there they're filling in [TS]

  bits of the backstory of these [TS]

  characters and such a mystery even if [TS]

  they're awful well yeah maybe so but [TS]

  even if they're awful [TS]

  it doesn't i'll go again say it doesn't [TS]

  change the original of a band that's [TS]

  proven me wrong on points already [TS]

  Lisa you know terrible terrible idea yes [TS]

  I i think i think it's a terrible idea [TS]

  just because i think that one of the [TS]

  reasons watchman works is because the [TS]

  characters we know right now all we know [TS]

  about them as is what serves the story [TS]

  and frankly I don't want to find out [TS]

  what makes the comedian tick I don't [TS]

  need to know what traumatic event [TS]

  happened in his past that makes him a [TS]

  completely pragmatic nihilist [TS]

  I don't want to know about how hard it [TS]

  was for Rorschach to go through junior [TS]

  high without ever getting a balance or [TS]

  whatever the hell else are going to do [TS]

  two attacks to explain that the Kings [TS]

  these people systems [TS]

  that's how were shocked by this first [TS]

  trench coat he walked into brooks [TS]

  brothers and they laughed about a star [TS]

  up and then he went back instead of on [TS]

  fire [TS]

  the thing is i don't because when these [TS]

  kind of prequel stories happen it's [TS]

  typically and there's going to be [TS]

  wink-wink nudge-nudge there will be will [TS]

  be weird little call back sir or sit [TS]

  serendipitous things that that imply [TS]

  that these characters pads have always [TS]

  been meant to cross because you know [TS]

  some writers going to throw that into [TS]

  sure think they're clever got it'll be [TS]

  annoying to the smiley faces and clocks [TS]

  everywhere [TS]

  yeah or it's going to be you know driver [TS]

  walks down the street and accidentally [TS]

  bumps Rorschach in the shoulder and no [TS]

  he doesn't realize he hit that we know [TS]

  and hey there they're doing a max she [TS]

  showing down at the art gallery [TS]

  no no I'm not interested in that art [TS]

  stuff yeah exactly so it's [TS]

  it's gonna be that kind of it's gonna be [TS]

  a combination of oh look there in jokes [TS]

  to satisfy the fanboys and fangirls and [TS]

  we get to find out what maybe skip what [TS]

  they are and I don't want to know what [TS]

  made them what they are i don't care i [TS]

  don't think it's I don't think it will [TS]

  serve the original story i don't think [TS]

  it will amplify it i don't think it'll [TS]

  make it better and I don't think it [TS]

  needs to be told [TS]

  so you're not even if the shrink-wrap is [TS]

  is ripped off you're not gonna look at [TS]

  the yeah actually end up regretting it [TS]

  every time I've done this in the public [TS]

  square where they go back and they [TS]

  backfilling stories in secret origins [TS]

  and so on and so forth [TS]

  no origin is ever as good as well i'm [TS]

  going to come up with in my head so I [TS]

  just end up regretting again I'm gonna [TS]

  spice and I'm going to ignore it pretend [TS]

  it didn't exist [TS]

  yeah me two chlorines and out now do not [TS]

  want exactly [TS]

  yeah exactly i was so much happier with [TS]

  the star wars universe before I walked [TS]

  into Phantom Menace you're going to [TS]

  depress bed again it's too late it's too [TS]

  late [TS]

  most depressing podcast ever had at one [TS]

  point I think that before before DC [TS]

  allegedly screwed [TS]

  alan moore and dave gibbons out of the [TS]

  rights to the the characters i think [TS]

  there was some talk of them doing a set [TS]

  of prequels based on the Minutemen and [TS]

  that i think would have worked because [TS]

  it would not have been an attempt to you [TS]

  know filling back stories and and you [TS]

  know could have been kind of an [TS]

  independent war and there is a minute [TS]

  men prequel mini-series that is one of [TS]

  them they're doing i think is that might [TS]

  not be horrible because it will is as [TS]

  long as they steer clear of too many of [TS]

  the QT Association right which ya can be [TS]

  i mean i i'm in the same boat as Lisa I [TS]

  don't want these back stories filled in [TS]

  fact i think one of the reasons that [TS]

  watchman works so well for so many [TS]

  different people is that more [TS]

  deliberately avoided making really over [TS]

  moral judgments on the characters and [TS]

  and kind of left them a blank slate that [TS]

  use the reader could get sort of draw [TS]

  your own conclusions with and I think [TS]

  the more that you fill in the gaps on [TS]

  these characters the less that's going [TS]

  to that's going to exist [TS]

  yeah I I ice i agree i mean III with Ben [TS]

  I I there maybe they may do good work [TS]

  these may be good writers and good [TS]

  artists and they made in [TS]

  be interesting to see their [TS]

  interpretations of these characters but [TS]

  on the other level one of the ways that [TS]

  watchman works is that you fill in the [TS]

  gaps and I i don't think people talk [TS]

  about that in in fiction enough that [TS]

  that even as an audience you have an [TS]

  imagination that can go at work and the [TS]

  implications these little bits that are [TS]

  implied go so far because the creator's [TS]

  know that the audience is going to fill [TS]

  in the gaps in a way that pleases them [TS]

  whereas if they made it specific it it [TS]

  would be much more difficult and that's [TS]

  why I met I'm ambivalent about the these [TS]

  these prequels is that they may be good [TS]

  on their own [TS]

  I I don't really like necessarily what [TS]

  they stand for in terms of playing [TS]

  really playing with the memory of the [TS]

  thing that I've got in my head which is [TS]

  watch men as a stand right and and [TS]

  really in comics a very rare thing a [TS]

  complete standalone work where these [TS]

  characters you read this [TS]

  that's it and that's going to be that's [TS]

  going to be done well here's the thing [TS]

  here's one let me make one last point [TS]

  about that [TS]

  do we really need to see you know the [TS]

  intricate details of how silk spectre [TS]

  and her lover or not off and when worse [TS]

  than that someone I guarantee you [TS]

  they're gonna tell us what happened to [TS]

  hooded justice suggests they're gonna [TS]

  show Blake killing hooded justice or [TS]

  whatever which is one of those great [TS]

  mysteries is like right Justice [TS]

  disappears [TS]

  there's the implication that Blake might [TS]

  have been involved but it isn't it is [TS]

  just it is just out there and yeah that [TS]

  will probably be dealt with literally so [TS]

  they couldn't go to the devil is alright [TS]

  but Barnes & Noble still in business [TS]

  been in the end the shrink-wrap is [TS]

  undone you give it appear if this [TS]

  elaborate set of conditions is Matt [TS]

  that's right the the Spirit is willing [TS]

  but the flesh is weak [TS]

  you know you gotta take a peek at the [TS]

  car crash as long as you're driving by [TS]

  you know [TS]

  sure [TS]

  alright well I think we've I think we've [TS]

  kicked the kitchen kicked the movie and [TS]

  kick the prequels and talked about about [TS]

  this this this book enough for now but [TS]

  uh this was great and and I I I don't [TS]

  feel like somebody like been destroyed [TS]

  my childhood love like like John [TS]

  syracuse it with real genius so that's [TS]

  good that so that that's good because [TS]

  because because I i share some of ben's [TS]

  feelings about it whereas John [TS]

  Syracuse's just wrong about real genius [TS]

  and that's all there is to it since he's [TS]

  not here to defend himself that's kinda [TS]

  awesome [TS]

  no that's the best thing is just you [TS]

  know boom there it is [TS]

  anyway so so it's been great talking [TS]

  watch man it's been great talking comic [TS]

  books from the mid-nineteen eighties [TS]

  with all of you [TS]

  so until until our next episode i would [TS]

  like to thank my guests the they are my [TS]

  own personal Minutemen steve lets you [TS]

  you can be who would you can be uh I [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  hooded justice III don't know you could [TS]

  be good luck i don't think it's gonna [TS]

  end well for you Steve lights thank you [TS]

  I'm oh I'm okay with that to be honest [TS]

  with justice and and and it's been a [TS]

  pleasure Jason talking about a work of [TS]

  literature with it which I can do in [TS]

  this case because it has pictures and [TS]

  stuff it has fixes yeah it's nice it's [TS]

  like book club [TS]

  except with pictures but then Boychuk [TS]

  thank you for being here young committee [TS]

  in there you are [TS]

  and that nothing ever ends except for [TS]

  this bottle of wine and i finished just [TS]

  a minute excellent it may refill itself [TS]

  if dr. Manhattan is listening [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser thanks for being here [TS]

  thank you [TS]

  this was a lot of fun and thank you for [TS]

  not making any oh so inspector I'm gonna [TS]

  try know why would I do such horrible [TS]

  horrible thing i'll do that when i added [TS]

  the podcast later [TS]

  ah no no make it a prequel and Tony [TS]

  sindelar thanks for coming it was great [TS]

  to have you on the podcast again it was [TS]

  great to be here [TS]

  I'm not trapped on this podcast with you [TS]

  you're trapped on it [TS]

  he'll finally somebody made a good [TS]

  reference that everybody got and and now [TS]

  it's just you know pick something out of [TS]

  the crank file and run that credit I [TS]

  like until next time for the [TS]

  uncomfortable and Jason thanks for [TS]

  listening [TS]

  I guess we've reached the end of this [TS]

  podcast then yeah I keep yes hello [TS]

  oh I said I guess we've reached the end [TS]

  of this podcast I oh not just friends [TS]

  control and I'm sorry I've had 16 ounces [TS]

  of wine during the course of this [TS]

  recording [TS]