The Incomparable

62: The Pig is Chekhov`s Gun

 

  the incomparable podcast number 62 [TS]

  October Atlantia LM [TS]

  we're back on the uncomfortable podcast [TS]

  I'm your host Jason smell and it is time [TS]

  for another edition of our part where we [TS]

  meet over skype because we don't [TS]

  actually have a booklet really only the [TS]

  internet we are here to discuss to 1000 [TS]

  page long fantasy novels a dance with [TS]

  dragons by george RR martin and the wise [TS]

  man's fear by Patrick Rothfuss now this [TS]

  conversation is in fact going to be so [TS]

  long that we're going to start adhere to [TS]

  one episode about a dance with dragons [TS]

  take a break and come back with a second [TS]

  episode about the wise man's fear so [TS]

  joining me today to talk about these [TS]

  gigantic fantasy tomes are damned Ouran [TS]

  High Dam digestion I just want to let [TS]

  you know that i put the Dan in dance [TS]

  with dragons good dance with dragons [TS]

  really exactly i am in fact right now [TS]

  with dragons with dragons excellent [TS]

  serenity Caldwell is here as well I am [TS]

  do you have any dragons dear you I have [TS]

  no dragons I am dragon free shame [TS]

  John syracuse also joins us hi John no [TS]

  spoilers no spoilers you're going to be [TS]

  silent for for the first half of this [TS]

  podcast because you haven't you haven't [TS]

  read the game of thrones books or have [TS]

  you only read the first one I've never [TS]

  had anything my wife actually started [TS]

  reading them after seeing the TV show [TS]

  but I'm i don't have room for that in my [TS]

  life right now you watch the TV show and [TS]

  want to remain unspoiled exactly right [TS]

  so we would otherwise spoil that [TS]

  whatever six this season supporters for [TS]

  2017 John you're cool that's right well [TS]

  it'll spoil everything in-between right [TS]

  by exactly and we rely for debt and [TS]

  Scott Mykelti also joins us he reads [TS]

  everything hi Scott [TS]

  hello yes it does it's good to hear your [TS]

  voice [TS]

  it's good to be hurt alright so I dance [TS]

  with dragons haven't booked in the ne a [TS]

  song of ice and fire series which will [TS]

  cover roughly seven between seven and [TS]

  nine t-ball use by the time it's done [TS]

  I think volume up volume 74 i'm really [TS]

  looking forward to yeah that'll be good [TS]

  that's like a good one huh her all the [TS]

  pieces all the pieces will be in place [TS]

  yeah a hop with heffalumps the story can [TS]

  really begin that that's when they go to [TS]

  hogwarts well Tony kill off the last of [TS]

  the main characters and we've met [TS]

  entirely new cast the people you think [TS]

  are being characters are not they're not [TS]

  in fact it's an entire book of volume 72 [TS]

  is entirely about raff the sweetling [TS]

  awesome he finally gets his due he gets [TS]

  he gets killed [TS]

  well as a call back there was one of our [TS]

  previous episodes on remember which one [TS]

  but yes one of the many previous [TS]

  episodes so so dance with dragons i [TS]

  think the first thing to talk about [TS]

  about this book is that the previous [TS]

  book a feast for crows is this weird [TS]

  really weird book where he took chunks [TS]

  of the book he was writing and pulled [TS]

  them out and published them in order to [TS]

  not go ten years between books but as a [TS]

  result the structure of a dance with [TS]

  dragons is very strange because sort of [TS]

  midway through characters from the other [TS]

  book reappear and the first part of the [TS]

  book is in parallel with that other book [TS]

  to the point where as I was as i was [TS]

  reading it I kept thinking you know in [TS]

  the end they're going to need to just [TS]

  tear the this book and the other book [TS]

  apart stick them together in order for [TS]

  anybody to make sense of it because I [TS]

  you know I it it's not a very good [TS]

  experience you've got it's just it's [TS]

  very strange because because you know [TS]

  characters just reappear midway through [TS]

  and you're like oh right she was in a [TS]

  cliffhanger at the end of the last book [TS]

  and then we didn't hear from her for 500 [TS]

  pages it's very strange [TS]

  Jason it's actually a pretty good [TS]

  experience if you actually have a red a [TS]

  feast for crows in six years because as [TS]

  it turns out you don't remember anything [TS]

  that happened anyways I i concur [TS]

  it's coming pretty much coming fresh [TS]

  into it like it's a whole new story who [TS]

  are as somebody who hadn't read a feast [TS]

  for crows and then went into it read it [TS]

  and that immediately read Dance with [TS]

  Dragons i think i finished feast for [TS]

  crows three days before dance with [TS]

  dragons came out it actually in my [TS]

  opinion holds together just fine [TS]

  it's a it's a little weird [TS]

  to overlap but at the same time I mean [TS]

  I've read enough weird fantasy books [TS]

  weather like this is going to be in the [TS]

  present then this is going to be in the [TS]

  past and this is gonna yeah but what [TS]

  would work better if you just took the [TS]

  chapters in feast for crows and sort of [TS]

  slaughtered them into dance with dragons [TS]

  and made it one giant 1,500 pages of [TS]

  wednesday i mean to find better if [TS]

  honestly I actually like telling the [TS]

  stories and chunks because when that [TS]

  what like when you think of what's the [TS]

  one before it storm of swords is that [TS]

  the the big giant one argue that's yeah [TS]

  3 the the thing that really frustrates [TS]

  me about the RR martin series is just [TS]

  the rapid you know interchange of [TS]

  characters and being like all right word [TS]

  cliffhanger and then we don't get to [TS]

  find out what happens to this person for [TS]

  500 pages because we're going to go [TS]

  visit all the other characters so [TS]

  actually having having a feast for crows [TS]

  just focus mostly on the Lannisters and [TS]

  focus on their story i actually found [TS]

  really nice because it was very easy to [TS]

  follow [TS]

  it's like all the characters you hate in [TS]

  one convenient location [TS]

  well and then they give you so much to [TS]

  hate about them so and then yeah if you [TS]

  want you to hate what exactly Minnesota [TS]

  to its true but now I actually I don't [TS]

  feel like it was a it was weird and i [TS]

  actually prefer it that way I i gotta [TS]

  say you know on sort of a connected [TS]

  topic two characters that I hate is that [TS]

  the dance with dragons also finally gave [TS]

  me another narrator that I actually [TS]

  liked or like as a character who I [TS]

  actually you know if you're positively [TS]

  about I guess subject like might be [TS]

  stronger because i'm not sure there is [TS]

  more than then like one or two that i [TS]

  like but that was refreshing [TS]

  there are so many people there are so [TS]

  many characters in these books are just [TS]

  like you know you really read a chapter [TS]

  from the point of view of Cersei and [TS]

  you're like man I cannot get behind you [TS]

  no matter what you do [TS]

  so who do you like I like Sir Barristan [TS]

  ah sir Barristan using he's like he's a [TS]

  stalwart dude right like he is he's one [TS]

  of the few like legitimately honorable [TS]

  people in this in this world and so it [TS]

  is refreshing to every once in awhile in [TS]

  a world that is so populated with [TS]

  admittedly fascinating you know [TS]

  characters from different shades of gray [TS]

  it is nice at least to get one character [TS]

  who seems to have a code that they hang [TS]

  onto yes but he's challenged right [TS]

  even he is conflicted and challenge but [TS]

  in a way that like he tries to really [TS]

  you know stick to his beliefs as he goes [TS]

  through that and anything that makes it [TS]

  that keeps him from being boring I I [TS]

  just you know it's nice to have a [TS]

  character who is who is someone that you [TS]

  can actually think I'll man you know I [TS]

  hope this I hope this guy survives is [TS]

  not good [TS]

  there's so many characters words like [TS]

  man I don't care if you live or die [TS]

  you know I actually really enjoyed ? [TS]

  tell in this book which I wasn't [TS]

  expecting to he's whining he's a [TS]

  complete 24 he's a complete idiot but i [TS]

  actually do we follow the fire the [TS]

  spoiler and Jason [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  yes yes okay if you would be dumb he got [TS]

  eaten by a freaking dragon i know but [TS]

  what he meant well no you know what i [TS]

  find i found his entire character arc [TS]

  hilarious and the the fact that he you [TS]

  know i'm going to travel across the [TS]

  world to get a girl to marry me a girl [TS]

  that I have never seen a girl who may or [TS]

  may not exist [TS]

  I just we're going to just kill off [TS]

  random members of our party it was just [TS]

  such an entertaining story to follow and [TS]

  he was so naive right but I guess part [TS]

  of me felt like in a book that's a [TS]

  thousand pages if you had cut out that [TS]

  entire subplot would it have mattered [TS]

  no no no not even remotely that kind of [TS]

  stops me in my tracks because they're I [TS]

  think there are a lot of really good [TS]

  stories and arcs in this book and it [TS]

  just a boggles my mind that we we spend [TS]

  our time on on people like when Martel [TS]

  who you know I like some of the [TS]

  characters and some of the like [TS]

  situations they drew with him but I got [TS]

  to the end of it but really you brought [TS]

  this guy in just so you can have them [TS]

  put on you know basically burned from [TS]

  head to toe so that that it that [TS]

  illustrates the destructive power of the [TS]

  Dragons right I don't know if you need [TS]

  that illustration but that's kind of his [TS]

  purposes you know he goes after her [TS]

  he thinks he can control these dragons [TS]

  and he can't because only one person [TS]

  really can but Kenny who can she [TS]

  we don't know it just seems a long way [TS]

  to go to prove a point in defense of [TS]

  Quentin Martel I think this sets up a [TS]

  very nice thing for the other Targaryen [TS]

  the because i feel like this is a this [TS]

  is a crazy lady harder to call of course [TS]

  he's going to get murdered but i think [TS]

  it's an i think it's an interesting pre [TS]

  parallel and I mean it also might as [TS]

  well call him Prince red herring and [TS]

  Magoffin you know it cuts it kept the [TS]

  early Denarius stuff from being flat out [TS]

  boring so the first third of this book I [TS]

  almost walked away and didn't pick it [TS]

  back up and it was very very lucky that [TS]

  it got interesting about i don't know [TS]

  how many kindle pages in but it was at [TS]

  least a third of the way through the [TS]

  book where it finally the story finally [TS]

  picked up and was finally something that [TS]

  I felt like I could dig into that you [TS]

  didn't like her story because there's [TS]

  too much kind of municipal regulation [TS]

  well and that [TS]

  municipal municipal wrangling is fine as [TS]

  somebody who you know watched all the [TS]

  seasons of The West Wing and loved it [TS]

  but they made it very dull well I was [TS]

  back in forth and back and forth reopen [TS]

  the fighting pits now I'm not gonna [TS]

  reopen the fighting pits no seriously [TS]

  reopen the fighting pits now I'm not [TS]

  going to do like it was like like 50 [TS]

  pages of that don't forget the O but [TS]

  what about my roguish secret lover that [TS]

  you don't know where he's back however [TS]

  but I can't love it but I do love her [TS]

  but I can't have a great about the [TS]

  fighting pits mention the red but I can [TS]

  shoot we mentioned in earlier books I [TS]

  mean I don't exist but he's mentioned [TS]

  several times [TS]

  yes but is he mentioned as like her her [TS]

  lusty love her paramour [TS]

  yeah it's got like she's got like a [TS]

  crush on him or in the earlier book i [TS]

  think and then you know it's not they [TS]

  don't actually consummated until this [TS]

  book buddies can you know he's clearly [TS]

  got like some swagger behind him you [TS]

  know he's trying to sort of seducers RZ [TS]

  swarthy and swashbuckling and all that [TS]

  was going to complain about the the [TS]

  Dornish men and also the iron board that [TS]

  i felt like one of my big complaints [TS]

  about the previous book is that we get [TS]

  introduced to all of these people in [TS]

  Dorne who who are like this there that [TS]

  like the sisters slow sir whatever [TS]

  michael dorn he's awesome he's great [TS]

  elephant yeah it would've been better [TS]

  without that if if the if the door had [TS]

  been wharf and Klingons there is no [TS]

  order in slaying a dragon that would [TS]

  have been great [TS]

  yes to the opposition I I feel like we [TS]

  we're so we're how many thousands of [TS]

  pages into the series now and suddenly [TS]

  he's opened these whole sections of [TS]

  storyline that our characters we've [TS]

  never met before who are just sort of [TS]

  like conniving and yet it also feels [TS]

  like they're they're doomed to failure [TS]

  like when Martel I don't know that [TS]

  that's actually one of my frustrations [TS]

  about this book and the previous book is [TS]

  that they're just big chunks that I feel [TS]

  like if i had invested in that story [TS]

  line since the beginning of the series I [TS]

  might feel different about it but having [TS]

  them be added it's a little bit like [TS]

  when they added characters to lost and [TS]

  everybody's like oh great sure [TS]

  four characters with missiles just I [TS]

  think they deliberately added I mean the [TS]

  door door has mentioned earlier on but i [TS]

  think they added that he added them [TS]

  specifically as sort of a a [TS]

  counterweight because the idea being and [TS]

  and I agree it seems sort of back [TS]

  filling in some ways to make these guys [TS]

  like you know so powerful that that [TS]

  their allegiance will actually make a [TS]

  difference right in this war mean that's [TS]

  the whole point right [TS]

  a lot of people are concerned like all [TS]

  of the Dornishmen why would some other [TS]

  force or whatever like we could be in [TS]

  trouble and so they're kind of supposed [TS]

  to be a big deal but at the same time it [TS]

  does seem kind of late for them to come [TS]

  into the picture and make a difference [TS]

  once were five books and X thousand [TS]

  pages in and during the whole--you know [TS]

  open the fighting pits close the [TS]

  fighting pits that you need to have some [TS]

  kind of anchor to the main storyline of [TS]

  you know the Westeros war and stuff so [TS]

  you don't get lost in this whole thing [TS]

  of ohh I there are people in masks [TS]

  killing other people and slavers don't [TS]

  like me and all the stuff i see what [TS]

  they were trying to do with the within a [TS]

  narrow storyline and they're trying to [TS]

  say oh yes ruling a city not the easiest [TS]

  of work but again I feel like they [TS]

  proved that in feast for crows with [TS]

  Circe's crazy downfall and I'm not [TS]

  trying I'm not sure if they if the [TS]

  initial intention was to contrast again [TS]

  with your saying Jason about merging the [TS]

  books contrasting Circe's crazy crappy [TS]

  management of the government vs dean [TS]

  heiresses still not very successful but [TS]

  maybe more tempered but it's more [TS]

  idealistic yeah that's the whole point [TS]

  and cheese for us she set up to be [TS]

  another one of these characters that [TS]

  were supposed to root for i think which [TS]

  I it was weird because I felt like [TS]

  coming in and i said this i think in the [TS]

  earlier podcast where we talked to a [TS]

  game of thrones never really found [TS]

  myself sympathizing with I mean I guess [TS]

  I I there was some sympathy in terms of [TS]

  like her situation being kind of crappy [TS]

  but is because the whole book is [TS]

  predicated on the idea that like her [TS]

  father who was insane was kicked out as [TS]

  king it's like yeah I guess I don't see [TS]

  why you should be in charge then I mean [TS]

  and so I think we're supposed to to feel [TS]

  more positive about her after she's [TS]

  tried really hard to run this city and [TS]

  like row and become a real queen [TS]

  I'm a real queen yeah I i think i think [TS]

  that's where there he was trying to go [TS]

  with that but it does get bogged down in [TS]

  seemingly in my new show once she gets [TS]

  the chance to basically leave the city [TS]

  and go back to Westeros which is what [TS]

  she wants to do supposedly and she says [TS]

  no I can't abandon my people and you're [TS]

  like no just you and that would be far [TS]

  too interesting i will stay here [TS]

  tell me more about the coup the tax code [TS]

  yeah man that pig mask [TS]

  yeah well I mean plus we do have we do [TS]

  have an intersection with the the main [TS]

  ish story which is the chi sort of [TS]

  crosses paths with Tyrion right like [TS]

  unknowingly but he does show up on this [TS]

  other content on content continent [TS]

  well he's down in the bottom of the [TS]

  fighting pits women dragon attack [TS]

  happens [TS]

  yeah exactly and so they get and you [TS]

  can't think these two characters again [TS]

  are set on this collision course and [TS]

  then as so often happens in this books [TS]

  they totally miss each other which was [TS]

  kind of annoying who knew that the [TS]

  dwarves and the pig and the dog it in [TS]

  the Attic oh yeah that the wedding at [TS]

  Joffrey's wedding would have done [TS]

  babbling yeah vitally important very [TS]

  important apparently the piggies [TS]

  checkouts coming there is that sad [TS]

  moment or the end where we're Tyrion [TS]

  tells his his friend the other door fee [TS]

  a set basically you're there [TS]

  they've been eat there's no way they've [TS]

  survived sorry dear [TS]

  we have to go where we joined up with [TS]

  the mercenaries now poor little tiny [TS]

  female dwarf I felt so terribly bad for [TS]

  her the entire sheet you know a lot of [TS]

  RR Martin's women get screwed around in [TS]

  this book but I I mean they do a very [TS]

  good job painting her as kind of the [TS]

  paragon of innocence and just watching [TS]

  it shatter away piece by terribly torn [TS]

  off pieces just a little heartbreaking [TS]

  little said you know her brother was [TS]

  killed horribly and and and all she's [TS]

  got is the pig and the dog and [TS]

  oh and the Empyrean won't love her no he [TS]

  won't [TS]

  it's true i might be the noblest thing [TS]

  that he does though ya know it's true i [TS]

  think and and you know I i really like I [TS]

  really have always liked period although [TS]

  i think he is a good example of a [TS]

  character who is it got many many gray [TS]

  areas but it's also very likeable and I [TS]

  think we talked about that a bit in the [TS]

  in the podcast about the TV show to [TS]

  which is that you know his flaws are [TS]

  that they're all up until you know the [TS]

  end of the previous book he's really [TS]

  loyal to his family huh yeah right up [TS]

  until a certain point basically up into [TS]

  a point where he learns that that was [TS]

  not reciprocated right right you know [TS]

  that he was not treated with the same [TS]

  loyalty that he was giving a little long [TS]

  so you know shoots dead wood cross but [TS]

  ok as you do [TS]

  yeah yeah yeah oh so I i have a question [TS]

  about about about Tyrion story in this [TS]

  book and it's where the horse go oh no [TS]

  wait thats the question he asks 'i I was [TS]

  a little disappointed that his story was [TS]

  this goes back to a point i think red [TS]

  made which is you know you wait so long [TS]

  to get back to that character and I feel [TS]

  as if george RR martin is writing seven [TS]

  novels or eight novels about all the [TS]

  characters in these books but you only [TS]

  get up you know one seventh of the novel [TS]

  each time interleaved with all the other [TS]

  novels I don't know so i was a little [TS]

  disappointed in interior story arc where [TS]

  he's spent a lot of time traveling right [TS]

  now not really doing anything brushes [TS]

  with gray scale w/e i mean but the gray [TS]

  scales are far more interesting victim [TS]

  elsewhere write and so sometimes i think [TS]

  i think the question for me is Tyrion [TS]

  like if you look at the Arkin about what [TS]

  he did in this book right [TS]

  he traveled around a lot he introduced [TS]

  us to a lot of other characters but [TS]

  there's very little action that he [TS]

  undertakes right and that's that's this [TS]

  point after especially having such a [TS]

  major action in the last book right is [TS]

  you know if we have that culminating [TS]

  point at the end of feast for crows and [TS]

  and you know dance of dragons is largely [TS]

  he's largely introspective right he [TS]

  spends a lot of his time thinking about [TS]

  things and not actually doing much again [TS]

  i feel this is one of our Martin [TS]

  sweetnesses is that he tries i mean i [TS]

  under [TS]

  stand that you need to have character [TS]

  arcs in a in a long series and and [TS]

  having the introspective moments and [TS]

  having Denarius showing that she can [TS]

  rule things and having Circe's fall from [TS]

  Greece you know these are all important [TS]

  things but I don't necessarily know if [TS]

  keen can craft them properly [TS]

  like I feel like we could have very [TS]

  easily figured out that yes curious [TS]

  Tyrion was feeling guilty and was [TS]

  feeling problems and and wants nothing [TS]

  more than to find Tasha but she has been [TS]

  yesterday you know embark on this side [TS]

  journey is as part of you know his [TS]

  penance for fleeing fleeing west coast [TS]

  but I feel like that could have been [TS]

  wrapped up by a different writer and [TS]

  like two chapters even I mean Tyrion [TS]

  gets what six or seven chapters in this [TS]

  book [TS]

  beginning middle end what beginning [TS]

  middle end it's not that there's that [TS]

  there's a very definite structure that [TS]

  you can do here but it feels like a lot [TS]

  of middle here [TS]

  yes very much does well it'sit's all [TS]

  middle for Tyrion in this book it's all [TS]

  metal for like this whole book is all [TS]

  middle really yeah a lot of it is i mean [TS]

  granted there are I you know having [TS]

  having been critical I think there are [TS]

  things i really enjoyed um I no no no he [TS]

  didn't [TS]

  that's right i didn't enjoy anything [TS]

  about this book no I I mean all right [TS]

  well okay hardest john-john storyline [TS]

  uh-oh jon jon is one of the other most [TS]

  of the characters see the problem with [TS]

  John storyline as much as you know I [TS]

  guess maybe my point of view is tempered [TS]

  by looking back and thinking about where [TS]

  that story line ends you will be [TS]

  betrayed oh yeah whatever whatever your [TS]

  sister will appear otherwise she's not [TS]

  my sister really well it's similar but [TS]

  if you will be betrayed you don't had [TS]

  well I mean I thought I really actually [TS]

  kind of in you know I liked his dilemma [TS]

  right with trying to figure out like all [TS]

  should I you know bring the wild things [TS]

  over he's like all right I'm gonna do [TS]

  this and like everybody else was like [TS]

  you're nuts [TS]

  Graham it was any but it was just its [TS]

  decision that from you know from John's [TS]

  perspective been seeing it through [TS]

  John's perspective like this is actually [TS]

  kind of makes sense right [TS]

  this this seems like a you know I get an [TS]

  unpopular decision but one that needs to [TS]

  be made and there is a good argument [TS]

  that like these least these people are [TS]

  human [TS]

  even if they don't always you know see [TS]

  eye-to-eye with us they're not creepy [TS]

  dead things you know stalking us but at [TS]

  the same time yet there is a lot of [TS]

  there's a lot of wrangling there's a lot [TS]

  of back-and-forth with him I think that [TS]

  storyline mirrors Denarius is storyline [TS]

  as well right because they're both [TS]

  struggling Colin struggling with our and [TS]

  you know doing kind of administrative [TS]

  things and getting coming to grips with [TS]

  decisions and then getting our trade and [TS]

  everyone's like oh what's going on are [TS]

  always so inevitably that you know for [TS]

  books down the road they can get married [TS]

  right and because of Westeros killer [TS]

  kill everybody else engine light right [TS]

  because he's the actual air of the [TS]

  Targaryen and his mother is Ned sister [TS]

  and his father is the Prince Targaryen [TS]

  who's who starts off the the whole war [TS]

  that leads to the unit opposing the king [TS]

  and everything right are we still going [TS]

  on sat theory I I am I agree [TS]

  what's up that's plausible theory I [TS]

  don't we get we get we get new [TS]

  information about John's mother though [TS]

  in this book don't we [TS]

  I feel like there's that there's that [TS]

  entire story about John's mother is [TS]

  there i don't think so there's all i [TS]

  remember when i think of John's mother [TS]

  all I remember is the first episode of [TS]

  the TV show which shall be like don't [TS]

  talk about your mother when I come back [TS]

  yeah yeah no I said I think about what [TS]

  jokes nose and because he's he's stabbed [TS]

  me and the failure and when I always [TS]

  friends so it was stabbed in the back by [TS]

  all his resume so here's what to do with [TS]

  it [TS]

  it is my problem with it is the same [TS]

  problem i had with the the searcy [TS]

  cliffhanger in the last book which is in [TS]

  Game of Thrones they chopped off his [TS]

  head and he's dead and that's and that's [TS]

  you know towards the end of the book and [TS]

  you like how they're going to get out of [TS]

  this one oh geez he's dead but but the [TS]

  seriously thing and especially with John [TS]

  I feel like there's so much run up to it [TS]

  and it's like it's a cliffhanger and [TS]

  there's no way I mean either he's not [TS]

  dead or he's going to transfer his [TS]

  spirit into some other person or [TS]

  whatever but so it feels so artificial [TS]

  that it leads to this point and it feels [TS]

  so false that were being given a [TS]

  cliffhanger that we know is not going to [TS]

  be paid off whereas with Ned it [TS]

  it's very clear that he was dead and not [TS]

  coming back so I felt like that was [TS]

  really unnecessary that if that's what [TS]

  you're building up to is this is the [TS]

  shocking moment that you're not going to [TS]

  really be able to pay off [TS]

  you know I i would really love i was [TS]

  thinking just think about this what [TS]

  you're saying is that i really would [TS]

  love this to be end up being the story [TS]

  of all the middlemen who you know keep [TS]

  everything running and like they're [TS]

  they're quite unsung victories I'm [TS]

  thinking again about one of my other [TS]

  favorite characters Davos Seaworth try [TS]

  to get any night this book i love who [TS]

  was killed off off-screen in the [TS]

  previous book and only now do we [TS]

  discover he wasn't killed it's all part [TS]

  of a plan how you knew he wasn't killed [TS]

  on the last yeah but what I was like no [TS]

  but there's there's every possibility [TS]

  even realize what we've seen and liked [TS]

  it could happen [TS]

  he's not that central of a character [TS]

  he's a very likeable character but he's [TS]

  not like a central character um and and [TS]

  i don't know i like the idea of all the [TS]

  middlemen being like yeah hey we're not [TS]

  the big guys in decision-making you know [TS]

  big guys and power making all the [TS]

  decisions we just kind of slipped from [TS]

  place to place but in the end you know [TS]

  we're probably the most important people [TS]

  here and i also thought I don't know [TS]

  what do you guys think I want to ask you [TS]

  what did you think of the beyond [TS]

  storyline haha oh my god [TS]

  creepy i never thought i would feel any [TS]

  sort of pity for beyond great joy but [TS]

  boy did I pity at pool yeah after that [TS]

  it was interesting I mean it was brutal [TS]

  and and disturbing this you know that [TS]

  was a great story with you if you take [TS]

  it was it was it was fascinating via the [TS]

  best part of the book we talk about [TS]

  middles beyond healing story came to an [TS]

  end right he betrayed he betrayed the [TS]

  Starks and and all that and history came [TS]

  to an end and and then with this story [TS]

  we get a complete story arc from feeling [TS]

  where he starts at the lowest of the low [TS]

  points and by the end is is calling [TS]

  himself by his own name again and has [TS]

  taken a take the women and basically [TS]

  jumped jumped out of the castle to run [TS]

  away to to the King means tried he tried [TS]

  to atone right he's actually trying to [TS]

  redeem him [TS]

  so yeah yeah after he's and he's broken [TS]

  and battered and that and that that's an [TS]

  arterial knocked out yeah like that [TS]

  that's he starts in one place and ends [TS]

  up in another yeah thats oh so in this [TS]

  book full of medals i really loved that [TS]

  the feelings story was an actual story [TS]

  with progression and and consequences [TS]

  and yeah I i think yeah maybe that was [TS]

  the best part of the book [TS]

  trying to think of any others yeah we [TS]

  got a couple chapters here and there for [TS]

  some people who were in feast for crows [TS]

  we got a little we get like one Jamie [TS]

  chapter maybe to Jamie all that happens [TS]

  with Jamie he goes to negotiate with me [TS]

  with river i well know we thought that [TS]

  we thought that uh that the debris and [TS]

  was was baby dead which again is [TS]

  bullshit hanger [TS]

  yeah there's no way that but she shows [TS]

  up at the end this question I mean she [TS]

  might be dead and brought back because [TS]

  that's what you happening but we did [TS]

  they ever resolved i can honestly can't [TS]

  remember because at the end of at the [TS]

  end of book 3 there's a creek [TS]

  cliffhanger where it turns out you know [TS]

  cabins alive right yeah well she's the [TS]

  great she's like the Grey Lady Rainicorn [TS]

  she's stealing hard and she's gotten [TS]

  right she's gotten especially [TS]

  resurrected and so she appears and yeah [TS]

  so that that's just what we don't see [TS]

  her appear again after that right now [TS]

  yeah yeah we do she she appears your [TS]

  cruise i can't speak right or doesn't [TS]

  speak clearly and and that's uh that's [TS]

  obviously where because we see that with [TS]

  Breanna it's with the the midst of the [TS]

  Brotherhood yeah the guy who turned out [TS]

  log beric Dondarrion and his rights [TS]

  exactly marrying men [TS]

  exactly so so I'm thoresen all those [TS]

  right guys right so that's where Jamie's [TS]

  going just like Jane let go [TS]

  going in the end brands related and all [TS]

  that but that that's clearly just you [TS]

  know bridge by chapter to keep it alive [TS]

  and not dealing with it right now [TS]

  whereas some of these other storylines [TS]

  like I was going to bring up brand who [TS]

  kind of vanished [TS]

  yeah is back and he didn't he that's a [TS]

  bizarre story because he's like LED he [TS]

  and then some people from the lowlands [TS]

  are led into the far north by a guy who [TS]

  is apparently a essentially a a dead guy [TS]

  or a white Walker or whatever he is he's [TS]

  a he said he's an animated corpse but [TS]

  residents functional yeah and we'll just [TS]

  as a ranger and arguably I mean you know [TS]

  my first thought was that it's his uncle [TS]

  yeah yeah benjamin has been [TS]

  disappearances what book one yahoo news [TS]

  be giving up my first book yeah yeah [TS]

  very beginning so um that's weird and [TS]

  then and there but that's not the weird [TS]

  part because then there's a really [TS]

  well scene where there's like the [TS]

  hillside and it's covered in snow and [TS]

  they try to go up it turns out there [TS]

  like dead bodies everywhere in the snow [TS]

  and they tried to kill them and they go [TS]

  into the cave and then Brandon his [TS]

  friends get to meet with the tree people [TS]

  who are the children the children which [TS]

  is that that's that was weird stuff that [TS]

  was very creepy and then the a/c the [TS]

  past two trees yet if they can kind of [TS]

  interact but they can't really be CRO [TS]

  and animal residents to write because he [TS]

  he interacts with with a peon about this [TS]

  point in the godswood he actually sees [TS]

  that my thing is it is it with with [TS]

  Cersei to I mean there there are several [TS]

  points right right yeah our by trees and [TS]

  it's like it is that as if the tree is [TS]

  looking at me it's like that's because [TS]

  it is great the tree just didn't agree [TS]

  you know brands whole storyline here [TS]

  actually reminds me of something that [TS]

  happens and wise man's fear which I'll [TS]

  save for the wine Spencer section of the [TS]

  podcast but it's their parallels the [TS]

  trees are the security cameras [TS]

  yeah Westeros well um and then we have a [TS]

  couple chapters from Astra Greyjoy's the [TS]

  Greyjoy's in general career choice i [TS]

  don't understand she's kind of an [TS]

  interesting character I like her as a [TS]

  character i think this book to [TS]

  unfortunately didn't give her a Watson [TS]

  yeah I liked her as a character before [TS]

  she got her own point of view I liked [TS]

  her when we initially met her through so [TS]

  much [TS]

  yeah I had a new she was happy when [TS]

  she's well because it was that [TS]

  uninteresting things in the last book [TS]

  where it's where there's going to be a [TS]

  king smooth and we're gonna pick a guy [TS]

  and she says I'll be the king and those [TS]

  they know you're a girl you can't be the [TS]

  king and why you are get you and then [TS]

  they send her off and you mean yeah so I [TS]

  i took and we have a while to remember [TS]

  who she was because that wasn't that [TS]

  interesting the Ironborn of the Dornish [TS]

  do not interest me only Michael Dore the [TS]

  Dornish makes sense to me because they [TS]

  at least have some power and they seem [TS]

  to be interweaved with the Targaryen xin [TS]

  a to a great extent i mean right but [TS]

  yeah I have no idea why the Ironborn in [TS]

  this book like they're what one or two [TS]

  chapters with Victorian or Victarion or [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  yeah all of the other great joys I have [TS]

  no idea is trying to do the same thing [TS]

  as Martel right yes [TS]

  everybody's trying to go Mary Mary [TS]

  Dennis we could understand that LOL and [TS]

  the missing Targaryen yeah gone [TS]

  we got a couple of chapters of area who [TS]

  I do well I love that remains one of my [TS]

  favorite character that again we had [TS]

  that kind of false cliff later was like [TS]

  ooh she's blind [TS]

  oh but it's just temporary she's not [TS]

  yeah should get better [TS]

  I mean she's joined she's trying to join [TS]

  an organization that's all about false [TS]

  facing I mean you kind of knew from the [TS]

  beginning you know I just I i have no [TS]

  idea why the Greyjoy's with the [TS]

  exception [TS]

  you know with one exception i have no [TS]

  idea why the Greyjoy's are have been in [TS]

  this series from the start because [TS]

  everything i read is just kind of like [TS]

  okay what we already have X people [TS]

  competing for the throne it would be [TS]

  real it would really suck if after you [TS]

  know 8,000 pages it turned out that the [TS]

  only reason we have to we have to read [TS]

  about the door [TS]

  nish people let me and the Greyjoy's is [TS]

  because in the end you know they're [TS]

  needed for some plot complication and [TS]

  therefore we've spent a thousand pages [TS]

  on them because getting into something [TS]

  that was very soon and of arcane Oh [TS]

  Westeros law that says when there are [TS]

  two or three kids competing for the [TS]

  undisputed that the ceremony can do that [TS]

  right on Tuesday that's that's and [TS]

  Daenerys from having like learned all [TS]

  her like lawyerly stuff running that [TS]

  city with you call over to a loophole [TS]

  whatever Honor I have Jackie it all [TS]

  turns into a courtroom or on our western [TS]

  sea god pretty much know what the aria [TS]

  stuff is good because that's a great [TS]

  character and again it there's not [TS]

  really much of an arc there but there's [TS]

  a little bit i mean she's learning she [TS]

  learns she learns how to follow the guy [TS]

  and and ascend assassinate him basically [TS]

  so that she she has some progression in [TS]

  her character [TS]

  it's a little frustrating because her [TS]

  progression is you will become a [TS]

  faceless assassin but it's there's no [TS]

  doubt that that's important because we [TS]

  had the whole thing in the last book [TS]

  where you know where they're learning [TS]

  the wherewithal the Meister's train and [TS]

  and and there's the guy who takes the [TS]

  form of the other guy who gets killed in [TS]

  the prologue and all that's it it's [TS]

  clear that that's really important for [TS]

  later but [TS]

  you know again it's just that's an [TS]

  interesting point well now that you [TS]

  brought that up in the prologue samples [TS]

  right every book has a prologue and [TS]

  epilogue and they're always pretty much [TS]

  like one-offs right one-off narrators [TS]

  and dance of dragons is no different at [TS]

  the beginning we had that the wildling [TS]

  skin-changer right is there several the [TS]

  wolves and and tries to eat people and [TS]

  crazy stuff and then doesn't really [TS]

  become he's mentioned i believe a couple [TS]

  times by the wild things but not seen [TS]

  again right and then at the end we have [TS]

  sir Kevin who is it that is actually [TS]

  more of an interesting situation because [TS]

  we also get the surprise return of [TS]

  another character who is totally not in [TS]

  this book [TS]

  varus right we sort of squirrels himself [TS]

  way I kind of like the app me again [TS]

  he saved all the good stuff in the end [TS]

  it's like I wanted to read the end of [TS]

  the book and like that's all the only [TS]

  part I cared about but you know we have [TS]

  basically the death of a couple major [TS]

  character is there and kill Vera skills [TS]

  pycelle and Kevin Lannister right right [TS]

  because it's all part of the plot to [TS]

  which plot C apart [TS]

  fuck somebody claimed his own baby is [TS]

  playing his own game to write like [TS]

  clearly just like he's got he's got an [TS]

  agenda right I was like to him I think [TS]

  he's you know he's like totally [TS]

  untrustworthy I think he's a I think [TS]

  he's a great character he's a [TS]

  fascinating yeah it's nice to see him [TS]

  back [TS]

  so with all of this all of the said you [TS]

  know and there is so much as it is a [TS]

  thousand pages long [TS]

  you know I want to ask about this book [TS]

  in the context of the series because [TS]

  there's really only there's no other way [TS]

  to enjoy it or talk about it or anything [TS]

  did you guys get the sense that because [TS]

  again I i alluded to this at the [TS]

  beginning he says oh it's a second book [TS]

  series so two more books will all be [TS]

  wrapped up i read this book thinking at [TS]

  the pace that he's going [TS]

  this will take 10 more books because I [TS]

  felt to me like it up a little [TS]

  the story the fact that well now i'm [TS]

  concerned that if if he thinks he's got [TS]

  two books to tell the rest of the story [TS]

  i'm going to feel like we invested it [TS]

  you know 8,000 pages to get to a [TS]

  resolution that takes a hundred because [TS]

  because we're all your aren't you [TS]

  you're gonna feel a little bit that like [TS]

  there's a point where it's just like we [TS]

  have to skip forward like oh yeah two [TS]

  years later [TS]

  yeah it just it seems like the pacing is [TS]

  all off if if this is booked five of [TS]

  seven because we don't have a you know [TS]

  watching that watching the TV show with [TS]

  my wife she's got these expectations [TS]

  about how to eros is gonna come to [TS]

  westeros a-- i'm sitting in she's never [TS]

  gonna come to westeros she's still not [TS]

  in Westeros she may never get to [TS]

  Westeros it's taken forever [TS]

  it's like you know if he can he can [TS]

  spend book six kind of bringing everyone [TS]

  together and then book 7 which could be [TS]

  like you know 4,000 pages finishing the [TS]

  whole thing and tying itself is just a [TS]

  big party except heart one book 7 part 2 [TS]

  and exactly like the Harry Potter movies [TS]

  yeah exactly yeah so I don't I think he [TS]

  could do it I don't know if he is [TS]

  disciplined enough to do it because he [TS]

  enjoys writing this stuff that he thinks [TS]

  about all this cool stuff he's like oh [TS]

  this is so cool i need to write about [TS]

  you know two characters that I've never [TS]

  heard of but not have this complicated [TS]

  roster reeling exactly and that's all [TS]

  any it's like he gives he's still [TS]

  unfolding right success without worries [TS]

  about this world is still like [TS]

  propagating in some ways and yet we're [TS]

  at the same time we're all going [TS]

  can you blow rein it in a little bit and [TS]

  sort of focus [TS]

  let's make a circle at least with the [TS]

  brand stuff I felt like brand who has [TS]

  been on a path where they've been [TS]

  taunting us [TS]

  he's been saying oh well together the [TS]

  crow the three-eyed crow all that I feel [TS]

  like we actually got somewhere with that [TS]

  now we're which was good that was that [TS]

  felt like forward motion to me but it [TS]

  just it see it's so strange that and he [TS]

  said you know he's this is we're seeing [TS]

  building as as he goes and he releases [TS]

  the installments but that's just a bad [TS]

  feeling about this that there is no he's [TS]

  gonna it's not two books worth of story [TS]

  that are left user there's a great world [TS]

  but the plot has started to take a [TS]

  backseat to the world building but some [TS]

  of the best characters regular catlin to [TS]

  your point to kill catlin it's shocking [TS]

  and then he makes the point of saying [TS]

  haha but she's not dead she's been [TS]

  resurrected in some way and then we [TS]

  essentially two books go by where she's [TS]

  in one chapter you know right and so [TS]

  what was more [TS]

  what was the point just lurking in the [TS]

  background all will become clear [TS]

  well you'll find out three bucks from [TS]

  now [TS]

  yeah you've got these kids because of [TS]

  key characters and Jamie and this jamie [TS]

  said but they can't all be important at [TS]

  the end right like that yes yes they [TS]

  could you never know Jaime and Brienne [TS]

  are are really interesting important [TS]

  characters they're basically not in this [TS]

  either and then there's something I just [TS]

  feel some frustration that like you've [TS]

  got these really good characters we're [TS]

  basically not seeing them and instead [TS]

  you're introducing me to these new [TS]

  characters like these Ironborn [TS]

  characters and the Dornish characters [TS]

  were conspiring and and they're just not [TS]

  that interesting and so that that's a [TS]

  frustration and you know I appreciate [TS]

  authors trying to prostrate the readers [TS]

  a little bit in order to tell a good [TS]

  story but when you move you know main [TS]

  characters off the board for you know [TS]

  for a decade [TS]

  that's kind of tough and I think I feel [TS]

  like he might feel as though his readers [TS]

  will feel ripped off if the book is you [TS]

  know 400 pages long which I don't think [TS]

  necessarily would be a bad plate [TS]

  I don't know all these books need to be [TS]

  thousand-page long he could tell the [TS]

  story he can stick to the main [TS]

  characters progressing along I'd be fine [TS]

  with that if it was 400 good pages as [TS]

  opposed to a thousand you know overall [TS]

  mostly mediocre pages with you know some [TS]

  good ideas here and some bad pages there [TS]

  I think we'd all be like yeah that's [TS]

  still pretty don't think that's I don't [TS]

  think that's a serious writing [TS]

  analytically and I i think the I i think [TS]

  if he gave you four pages it would be [TS]

  400 pages of the same stuff so you might [TS]

  as well get a thousand out of it because [TS]

  that's but that's the pace that's what [TS]

  it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna [TS]

  make it up in volume [TS]

  yeah and just set up the way he's riding [TS]

  slowly but surely i'm not selling these [TS]

  books at a loss on the plus side [TS]

  apparently he has stated publicly that [TS]

  there are no more new POV characters [TS]

  being introduced after this book and all [TS]

  whatever we had what another the [TS]

  freighter comes to be on a helicopter [TS]

  drops a few characters are all my god [TS]

  Jason you're just spoiled the whole [TS]

  knows where his it's an island island [TS]

  moves so any Indian thousand pages of [TS]

  your time invested in this what what do [TS]

  you think what was the what was the [TS]

  verdict about about dance with dragons [TS]

  I'll say I enjoyed it but having now [TS]

  talked about it and realized all the [TS]

  issues I had with it i'm not really in [TS]

  any hurry to go back and really like I [TS]

  thought about rereading this series [TS]

  before because I couldn't remember most [TS]

  of what happened and I thought about [TS]

  that i thought about a little more and I [TS]

  said you know what [TS]

  no I don't there's not enough time I [TS]

  just don't care enough and I think as [TS]

  each book goes on i think it's unlikely [TS]

  i will ever read these books I just kind [TS]

  of wanted to be done [TS]

  I mean I want to be done and done well [TS]

  but i also just kind of wanted to be [TS]

  over at this point [TS]

  yeah I as somebody who you know I'd read [TS]

  the first two books way back when and [TS]

  then reread the entire series this year [TS]

  and it took me something like four or [TS]

  five months to finish all these [TS]

  including dance with dragons and you [TS]

  know they're good stories they're [TS]

  engrossing but when I was you know Glenn [TS]

  was asking if he should read them [TS]

  because he'd never read them and I'm [TS]

  like I have a hard time recommending [TS]

  these books to anybody because it's not [TS]

  I mean it's not that they're they're not [TS]

  well-written and they don't have [TS]

  interesting concepts but I'm like if I [TS]

  if I had spent five months reading you [TS]

  know a lot of other really good fiction [TS]

  what I have been just as happy not [TS]

  having this book in my life and not [TS]

  having this book series in my life and I [TS]

  think unfortunately I think the answer [TS]

  is yes I'm like I'm not sure if there's [TS]

  anything here that I it's got its got [TS]

  into that hardest to recommend point [TS]

  right like a book if you read a book if [TS]

  there's only Booker to you be this is [TS]

  really promising yeah I should tell [TS]

  people read this or if it was you know [TS]

  over and complete and I thought like [TS]

  that you would you would have a full [TS]

  picture of it but right now you're in [TS]

  the middle so it's like right [TS]

  recommending a book to somewhere in the [TS]

  middle of it [TS]

  I don't know how it turns out is in the [TS]

  balance recommending lost at season 4 [TS]

  yeah i think the game of films the the [TS]

  whole series now is in this interesting [TS]

  kind of cultural inflection point right [TS]

  because people who would never in a [TS]

  thousand years read fantasy novel are [TS]

  picking up a game of thrones because of [TS]

  the HBO series which i think is great [TS]

  because it opens them up to a new genre [TS]

  but i think on the other hand if I were [TS]

  charged george RR martin i would feel [TS]

  incredible journey thanks [TS]

  rgr driver [TS]

  anybody i would feel an incredible [TS]

  amount of pressure to to you know live [TS]

  up to these people's expectations and I [TS]

  think the first book was the best book [TS]

  out of the the five so far so kind of I [TS]

  don't know it's a tough spot for him to [TS]

  be and of course you know he can cry on [TS]

  giant piles of money but exactly [TS]

  alright and I I think I kind of agree [TS]

  with that this was their parts of it [TS]

  that I really liked and parts of it that [TS]

  I felt frustrated by and I ate reminded [TS]

  me of what i like about the series and [TS]

  it made me think you know again nervous [TS]

  thoughts about the building of this of [TS]

  of the series and how it's gonna get [TS]

  resolved but um but I still like the [TS]

  series about by the next ball be there [TS]

  by the next book 15 minute delay my ear [TS]

  and he's acting like this point throwing [TS]

  it away i mean i threw away through a [TS]

  wheel a time after seven books and I [TS]

  don't regret that but you know who knows [TS]

  that was a smart plan as someone who has [TS]

  read all of them who is my friend keeps [TS]

  trying to convince me like all you have [TS]

  the last ones with the ones have been [TS]

  written by the other guy try and [TS]

  actually pretty good i'm like i'm not [TS]

  going for more books of craft just ate [TS]

  two books that you think are all right [TS]

  with it [TS]

  read some of his original fiction and [TS]

  this is why I don't read the harry [TS]

  potter and harrypotter harrypotter all [TS]

  of those books are energy are enjoyable [TS]

  you know they have some crappy parts but [TS]

  i would say each individual book is [TS]

  light-hearted enough and fun enough that [TS]

  you don't regret reading them i read the [TS]

  first one and I regretted alright so [TS]

  we're going to stop it there [TS]

  we're going to press save on this [TS]

  edition of the incomparable podcast [TS]

  we're going to bring John syracuse it [TS]

  back in and in our next episode we will [TS]

  talk about Patrick Rothfuss 'as sequel [TS]

  to the name of the wind all the wise [TS]

  man's fear but until then I want to [TS]

  thank everybody for listening i want to [TS]

  thank my guest John siracusa serenity [TS]

  Caldwell damn Lauren and Scott McNulty [TS]

  for the uncomfortable podcast I'm Jason [TS]

  Snell we'll see you next time [TS]

  [Music] [TS]