The Incomparable

62: The Pig is Chekhov`s Gun


00:00:00   the incomparable podcast number 62 [TS]

00:00:07   October Atlantia LM [TS]

00:00:11   we're back on the uncomfortable podcast [TS]

00:00:14   I'm your host Jason smell and it is time [TS]

00:00:16   for another edition of our part where we [TS]

00:00:18   meet over skype because we don't [TS]

00:00:21   actually have a booklet really only the [TS]

00:00:24   internet we are here to discuss to 1000 [TS]

00:00:27   page long fantasy novels a dance with [TS]

00:00:29   dragons by george RR martin and the wise [TS]

00:00:32   man's fear by Patrick Rothfuss now this [TS]

00:00:36   conversation is in fact going to be so [TS]

00:00:38   long that we're going to start adhere to [TS]

00:00:41   one episode about a dance with dragons [TS]

00:00:43   take a break and come back with a second [TS]

00:00:46   episode about the wise man's fear so [TS]

00:00:50   joining me today to talk about these [TS]

00:00:52   gigantic fantasy tomes are damned Ouran [TS]

00:00:56   High Dam digestion I just want to let [TS]

00:00:59   you know that i put the Dan in dance [TS]

00:01:01   with dragons good dance with dragons [TS]

00:01:04   really exactly i am in fact right now [TS]

00:01:06   with dragons with dragons excellent [TS]

00:01:09   serenity Caldwell is here as well I am [TS]

00:01:12   do you have any dragons dear you I have [TS]

00:01:14   no dragons I am dragon free shame [TS]

00:01:17   John syracuse also joins us hi John no [TS]

00:01:21   spoilers no spoilers you're going to be [TS]

00:01:23   silent for for the first half of this [TS]

00:01:25   podcast because you haven't you haven't [TS]

00:01:27   read the game of thrones books or have [TS]

00:01:28   you only read the first one I've never [TS]

00:01:30   had anything my wife actually started [TS]

00:01:31   reading them after seeing the TV show [TS]

00:01:33   but I'm i don't have room for that in my [TS]

00:01:35   life right now you watch the TV show and [TS]

00:01:37   want to remain unspoiled exactly right [TS]

00:01:39   so we would otherwise spoil that [TS]

00:01:42   whatever six this season supporters for [TS]

00:01:44   2017 John you're cool that's right well [TS]

00:01:48   it'll spoil everything in-between right [TS]

00:01:49   by exactly and we rely for debt and [TS]

00:01:52   Scott Mykelti also joins us he reads [TS]

00:01:54   everything hi Scott [TS]

00:01:55   hello yes it does it's good to hear your [TS]

00:01:59   voice [TS]

00:01:59   it's good to be hurt alright so I dance [TS]

00:02:03   with dragons haven't booked in the ne a [TS]

00:02:08   song of ice and fire series which will [TS]

00:02:10   cover roughly seven between seven and [TS]

00:02:14   nine t-ball use by the time it's done [TS]

00:02:19   I think volume up volume 74 i'm really [TS]

00:02:23   looking forward to yeah that'll be good [TS]

00:02:26   that's like a good one huh her all the [TS]

00:02:28   pieces all the pieces will be in place [TS]

00:02:30   yeah a hop with heffalumps the story can [TS]

00:02:33   really begin that that's when they go to [TS]

00:02:35   hogwarts well Tony kill off the last of [TS]

00:02:38   the main characters and we've met [TS]

00:02:40   entirely new cast the people you think [TS]

00:02:42   are being characters are not they're not [TS]

00:02:45   in fact it's an entire book of volume 72 [TS]

00:02:48   is entirely about raff the sweetling [TS]

00:02:49   awesome he finally gets his due he gets [TS]

00:02:53   he gets killed [TS]

00:02:55   well as a call back there was one of our [TS]

00:02:56   previous episodes on remember which one [TS]

00:02:58   but yes one of the many previous [TS]

00:03:00   episodes so so dance with dragons i [TS]

00:03:02   think the first thing to talk about [TS]

00:03:03   about this book is that the previous [TS]

00:03:07   book a feast for crows is this weird [TS]

00:03:10   really weird book where he took chunks [TS]

00:03:14   of the book he was writing and pulled [TS]

00:03:16   them out and published them in order to [TS]

00:03:18   not go ten years between books but as a [TS]

00:03:21   result the structure of a dance with [TS]

00:03:23   dragons is very strange because sort of [TS]

00:03:27   midway through characters from the other [TS]

00:03:29   book reappear and the first part of the [TS]

00:03:32   book is in parallel with that other book [TS]

00:03:34   to the point where as I was as i was [TS]

00:03:36   reading it I kept thinking you know in [TS]

00:03:38   the end they're going to need to just [TS]

00:03:39   tear the this book and the other book [TS]

00:03:41   apart stick them together in order for [TS]

00:03:43   anybody to make sense of it because I [TS]

00:03:45   you know I it it's not a very good [TS]

00:03:48   experience you've got it's just it's [TS]

00:03:51   very strange because because you know [TS]

00:03:53   characters just reappear midway through [TS]

00:03:54   and you're like oh right she was in a [TS]

00:03:56   cliffhanger at the end of the last book [TS]

00:03:59   and then we didn't hear from her for 500 [TS]

00:04:00   pages it's very strange [TS]

00:04:02   Jason it's actually a pretty good [TS]

00:04:03   experience if you actually have a red a [TS]

00:04:06   feast for crows in six years because as [TS]

00:04:08   it turns out you don't remember anything [TS]

00:04:10   that happened anyways I i concur [TS]

00:04:13   it's coming pretty much coming fresh [TS]

00:04:14   into it like it's a whole new story who [TS]

00:04:16   are as somebody who hadn't read a feast [TS]

00:04:20   for crows and then went into it read it [TS]

00:04:22   and that immediately read Dance with [TS]

00:04:24   Dragons i think i finished feast for [TS]

00:04:25   crows three days before dance with [TS]

00:04:27   dragons came out it actually in my [TS]

00:04:29   opinion holds together just fine [TS]

00:04:31   it's a it's a little weird [TS]

00:04:33   to overlap but at the same time I mean [TS]

00:04:35   I've read enough weird fantasy books [TS]

00:04:37   weather like this is going to be in the [TS]

00:04:38   present then this is going to be in the [TS]

00:04:40   past and this is gonna yeah but what [TS]

00:04:41   would work better if you just took the [TS]

00:04:43   chapters in feast for crows and sort of [TS]

00:04:45   slaughtered them into dance with dragons [TS]

00:04:46   and made it one giant 1,500 pages of [TS]

00:04:50   wednesday i mean to find better if [TS]

00:04:52   honestly I actually like telling the [TS]

00:04:56   stories and chunks because when that [TS]

00:04:59   what like when you think of what's the [TS]

00:05:00   one before it storm of swords is that [TS]

00:05:02   the the big giant one argue that's yeah [TS]

00:05:04   3 the the thing that really frustrates [TS]

00:05:07   me about the RR martin series is just [TS]

00:05:10   the rapid you know interchange of [TS]

00:05:12   characters and being like all right word [TS]

00:05:14   cliffhanger and then we don't get to [TS]

00:05:15   find out what happens to this person for [TS]

00:05:17   500 pages because we're going to go [TS]

00:05:19   visit all the other characters so [TS]

00:05:21   actually having having a feast for crows [TS]

00:05:23   just focus mostly on the Lannisters and [TS]

00:05:26   focus on their story i actually found [TS]

00:05:27   really nice because it was very easy to [TS]

00:05:31   follow [TS]

00:05:32   it's like all the characters you hate in [TS]

00:05:34   one convenient location [TS]

00:05:36   well and then they give you so much to [TS]

00:05:38   hate about them so and then yeah if you [TS]

00:05:40   want you to hate what exactly Minnesota [TS]

00:05:42   to its true but now I actually I don't [TS]

00:05:45   feel like it was a it was weird and i [TS]

00:05:48   actually prefer it that way I i gotta [TS]

00:05:49   say you know on sort of a connected [TS]

00:05:52   topic two characters that I hate is that [TS]

00:05:56   the dance with dragons also finally gave [TS]

00:05:58   me another narrator that I actually [TS]

00:05:59   liked or like as a character who I [TS]

00:06:02   actually you know if you're positively [TS]

00:06:06   about I guess subject like might be [TS]

00:06:08   stronger because i'm not sure there is [TS]

00:06:09   more than then like one or two that i [TS]

00:06:11   like but that was refreshing [TS]

00:06:14   there are so many people there are so [TS]

00:06:15   many characters in these books are just [TS]

00:06:16   like you know you really read a chapter [TS]

00:06:19   from the point of view of Cersei and [TS]

00:06:20   you're like man I cannot get behind you [TS]

00:06:22   no matter what you do [TS]

00:06:24   so who do you like I like Sir Barristan [TS]

00:06:29   ah sir Barristan using he's like he's a [TS]

00:06:33   stalwart dude right like he is he's one [TS]

00:06:36   of the few like legitimately honorable [TS]

00:06:38   people in this in this world and so it [TS]

00:06:41   is refreshing to every once in awhile in [TS]

00:06:43   a world that is so populated with [TS]

00:06:44   admittedly fascinating you know [TS]

00:06:46   characters from different shades of gray [TS]

00:06:48   it is nice at least to get one character [TS]

00:06:50   who seems to have a code that they hang [TS]

00:06:51   onto yes but he's challenged right [TS]

00:06:56   even he is conflicted and challenge but [TS]

00:06:58   in a way that like he tries to really [TS]

00:07:01   you know stick to his beliefs as he goes [TS]

00:07:04   through that and anything that makes it [TS]

00:07:06   that keeps him from being boring I I [TS]

00:07:10   just you know it's nice to have a [TS]

00:07:11   character who is who is someone that you [TS]

00:07:13   can actually think I'll man you know I [TS]

00:07:15   hope this I hope this guy survives is [TS]

00:07:16   not good [TS]

00:07:17   there's so many characters words like [TS]

00:07:18   man I don't care if you live or die [TS]

00:07:21   you know I actually really enjoyed ? [TS]

00:07:24   tell in this book which I wasn't [TS]

00:07:26   expecting to he's whining he's a [TS]

00:07:27   complete 24 he's a complete idiot but i [TS]

00:07:31   actually do we follow the fire the [TS]

00:07:32   spoiler and Jason [TS]

00:07:33   [Music] [TS]

00:07:38   yes yes okay if you would be dumb he got [TS]

00:07:42   eaten by a freaking dragon i know but [TS]

00:07:45   what he meant well no you know what i [TS]

00:07:48   find i found his entire character arc [TS]

00:07:51   hilarious and the the fact that he you [TS]

00:07:55   know i'm going to travel across the [TS]

00:07:56   world to get a girl to marry me a girl [TS]

00:07:59   that I have never seen a girl who may or [TS]

00:08:01   may not exist [TS]

00:08:01   I just we're going to just kill off [TS]

00:08:03   random members of our party it was just [TS]

00:08:05   such an entertaining story to follow and [TS]

00:08:07   he was so naive right but I guess part [TS]

00:08:10   of me felt like in a book that's a [TS]

00:08:11   thousand pages if you had cut out that [TS]

00:08:13   entire subplot would it have mattered [TS]

00:08:16   no no no not even remotely that kind of [TS]

00:08:19   stops me in my tracks because they're I [TS]

00:08:21   think there are a lot of really good [TS]

00:08:23   stories and arcs in this book and it [TS]

00:08:26   just a boggles my mind that we we spend [TS]

00:08:28   our time on on people like when Martel [TS]

00:08:30   who you know I like some of the [TS]

00:08:32   characters and some of the like [TS]

00:08:33   situations they drew with him but I got [TS]

00:08:35   to the end of it but really you brought [TS]

00:08:37   this guy in just so you can have them [TS]

00:08:38   put on you know basically burned from [TS]

00:08:40   head to toe so that that it that [TS]

00:08:42   illustrates the destructive power of the [TS]

00:08:44   Dragons right I don't know if you need [TS]

00:08:45   that illustration but that's kind of his [TS]

00:08:47   purposes you know he goes after her [TS]

00:08:49   he thinks he can control these dragons [TS]

00:08:51   and he can't because only one person [TS]

00:08:53   really can but Kenny who can she [TS]

00:08:55   we don't know it just seems a long way [TS]

00:08:57   to go to prove a point in defense of [TS]

00:08:59   Quentin Martel I think this sets up a [TS]

00:09:01   very nice thing for the other Targaryen [TS]

00:09:04   the because i feel like this is a this [TS]

00:09:06   is a crazy lady harder to call of course [TS]

00:09:08   he's going to get murdered but i think [TS]

00:09:10   it's an i think it's an interesting pre [TS]

00:09:11   parallel and I mean it also might as [TS]

00:09:14   well call him Prince red herring and [TS]

00:09:18   Magoffin you know it cuts it kept the [TS]

00:09:20   early Denarius stuff from being flat out [TS]

00:09:22   boring so the first third of this book I [TS]

00:09:24   almost walked away and didn't pick it [TS]

00:09:26   back up and it was very very lucky that [TS]

00:09:29   it got interesting about i don't know [TS]

00:09:32   how many kindle pages in but it was at [TS]

00:09:34   least a third of the way through the [TS]

00:09:35   book where it finally the story finally [TS]

00:09:36   picked up and was finally something that [TS]

00:09:38   I felt like I could dig into that you [TS]

00:09:40   didn't like her story because there's [TS]

00:09:42   too much kind of municipal regulation [TS]

00:09:45   well and that [TS]

00:09:46   municipal municipal wrangling is fine as [TS]

00:09:50   somebody who you know watched all the [TS]

00:09:52   seasons of The West Wing and loved it [TS]

00:09:54   but they made it very dull well I was [TS]

00:09:58   back in forth and back and forth reopen [TS]

00:10:01   the fighting pits now I'm not gonna [TS]

00:10:02   reopen the fighting pits no seriously [TS]

00:10:03   reopen the fighting pits now I'm not [TS]

00:10:05   going to do like it was like like 50 [TS]

00:10:06   pages of that don't forget the O but [TS]

00:10:08   what about my roguish secret lover that [TS]

00:10:11   you don't know where he's back however [TS]

00:10:13   but I can't love it but I do love her [TS]

00:10:15   but I can't have a great about the [TS]

00:10:16   fighting pits mention the red but I can [TS]

00:10:20   shoot we mentioned in earlier books I [TS]

00:10:24   mean I don't exist but he's mentioned [TS]

00:10:26   several times [TS]

00:10:27   yes but is he mentioned as like her her [TS]

00:10:29   lusty love her paramour [TS]

00:10:31   yeah it's got like she's got like a [TS]

00:10:33   crush on him or in the earlier book i [TS]

00:10:35   think and then you know it's not they [TS]

00:10:36   don't actually consummated until this [TS]

00:10:37   book buddies can you know he's clearly [TS]

00:10:40   got like some swagger behind him you [TS]

00:10:42   know he's trying to sort of seducers RZ [TS]

00:10:44   swarthy and swashbuckling and all that [TS]

00:10:47   was going to complain about the the [TS]

00:10:49   Dornish men and also the iron board that [TS]

00:10:53   i felt like one of my big complaints [TS]

00:10:54   about the previous book is that we get [TS]

00:10:56   introduced to all of these people in [TS]

00:10:58   Dorne who who are like this there that [TS]

00:11:00   like the sisters slow sir whatever [TS]

00:11:03   michael dorn he's awesome he's great [TS]

00:11:07   elephant yeah it would've been better [TS]

00:11:09   without that if if the if the door had [TS]

00:11:12   been wharf and Klingons there is no [TS]

00:11:14   order in slaying a dragon that would [TS]

00:11:17   have been great [TS]

00:11:17   yes to the opposition I I feel like we [TS]

00:11:20   we're so we're how many thousands of [TS]

00:11:22   pages into the series now and suddenly [TS]

00:11:24   he's opened these whole sections of [TS]

00:11:27   storyline that our characters we've [TS]

00:11:29   never met before who are just sort of [TS]

00:11:31   like conniving and yet it also feels [TS]

00:11:35   like they're they're doomed to failure [TS]

00:11:38   like when Martel I don't know that [TS]

00:11:39   that's actually one of my frustrations [TS]

00:11:41   about this book and the previous book is [TS]

00:11:42   that they're just big chunks that I feel [TS]

00:11:45   like if i had invested in that story [TS]

00:11:47   line since the beginning of the series I [TS]

00:11:49   might feel different about it but having [TS]

00:11:51   them be added it's a little bit like [TS]

00:11:53   when they added characters to lost and [TS]

00:11:56   everybody's like oh great sure [TS]

00:11:58   four characters with missiles just I [TS]

00:12:00   think they deliberately added I mean the [TS]

00:12:02   door door has mentioned earlier on but i [TS]

00:12:05   think they added that he added them [TS]

00:12:07   specifically as sort of a a [TS]

00:12:08   counterweight because the idea being and [TS]

00:12:11   and I agree it seems sort of back [TS]

00:12:13   filling in some ways to make these guys [TS]

00:12:14   like you know so powerful that that [TS]

00:12:17   their allegiance will actually make a [TS]

00:12:19   difference right in this war mean that's [TS]

00:12:20   the whole point right [TS]

00:12:21   a lot of people are concerned like all [TS]

00:12:23   of the Dornishmen why would some other [TS]

00:12:24   force or whatever like we could be in [TS]

00:12:26   trouble and so they're kind of supposed [TS]

00:12:29   to be a big deal but at the same time it [TS]

00:12:32   does seem kind of late for them to come [TS]

00:12:35   into the picture and make a difference [TS]

00:12:38   once were five books and X thousand [TS]

00:12:40   pages in and during the whole--you know [TS]

00:12:42   open the fighting pits close the [TS]

00:12:44   fighting pits that you need to have some [TS]

00:12:46   kind of anchor to the main storyline of [TS]

00:12:50   you know the Westeros war and stuff so [TS]

00:12:52   you don't get lost in this whole thing [TS]

00:12:53   of ohh I there are people in masks [TS]

00:12:56   killing other people and slavers don't [TS]

00:12:59   like me and all the stuff i see what [TS]

00:13:00   they were trying to do with the within a [TS]

00:13:03   narrow storyline and they're trying to [TS]

00:13:04   say oh yes ruling a city not the easiest [TS]

00:13:07   of work but again I feel like they [TS]

00:13:09   proved that in feast for crows with [TS]

00:13:12   Circe's crazy downfall and I'm not [TS]

00:13:14   trying I'm not sure if they if the [TS]

00:13:16   initial intention was to contrast again [TS]

00:13:18   with your saying Jason about merging the [TS]

00:13:20   books contrasting Circe's crazy crappy [TS]

00:13:22   management of the government vs dean [TS]

00:13:25   heiresses still not very successful but [TS]

00:13:27   maybe more tempered but it's more [TS]

00:13:31   idealistic yeah that's the whole point [TS]

00:13:33   and cheese for us she set up to be [TS]

00:13:35   another one of these characters that [TS]

00:13:37   were supposed to root for i think which [TS]

00:13:39   I it was weird because I felt like [TS]

00:13:40   coming in and i said this i think in the [TS]

00:13:42   earlier podcast where we talked to a [TS]

00:13:44   game of thrones never really found [TS]

00:13:46   myself sympathizing with I mean I guess [TS]

00:13:47   I I there was some sympathy in terms of [TS]

00:13:49   like her situation being kind of crappy [TS]

00:13:51   but is because the whole book is [TS]

00:13:53   predicated on the idea that like her [TS]

00:13:55   father who was insane was kicked out as [TS]

00:13:57   king it's like yeah I guess I don't see [TS]

00:13:59   why you should be in charge then I mean [TS]

00:14:01   and so I think we're supposed to to feel [TS]

00:14:03   more positive about her after she's [TS]

00:14:05   tried really hard to run this city and [TS]

00:14:08   like row and become a real queen [TS]

00:14:10   I'm a real queen yeah I i think i think [TS]

00:14:14   that's where there he was trying to go [TS]

00:14:16   with that but it does get bogged down in [TS]

00:14:18   seemingly in my new show once she gets [TS]

00:14:21   the chance to basically leave the city [TS]

00:14:25   and go back to Westeros which is what [TS]

00:14:27   she wants to do supposedly and she says [TS]

00:14:29   no I can't abandon my people and you're [TS]

00:14:32   like no just you and that would be far [TS]

00:14:35   too interesting i will stay here [TS]

00:14:37   tell me more about the coup the tax code [TS]

00:14:39   yeah man that pig mask [TS]

00:14:42   yeah well I mean plus we do have we do [TS]

00:14:44   have an intersection with the the main [TS]

00:14:46   ish story which is the chi sort of [TS]

00:14:49   crosses paths with Tyrion right like [TS]

00:14:51   unknowingly but he does show up on this [TS]

00:14:55   other content on content continent [TS]

00:14:58   well he's down in the bottom of the [TS]

00:14:59   fighting pits women dragon attack [TS]

00:15:01   happens [TS]

00:15:02   yeah exactly and so they get and you [TS]

00:15:04   can't think these two characters again [TS]

00:15:06   are set on this collision course and [TS]

00:15:08   then as so often happens in this books [TS]

00:15:10   they totally miss each other which was [TS]

00:15:12   kind of annoying who knew that the [TS]

00:15:13   dwarves and the pig and the dog it in [TS]

00:15:17   the Attic oh yeah that the wedding at [TS]

00:15:19   Joffrey's wedding would have done [TS]

00:15:20   babbling yeah vitally important very [TS]

00:15:23   important apparently the piggies [TS]

00:15:25   checkouts coming there is that sad [TS]

00:15:28   moment or the end where we're Tyrion [TS]

00:15:30   tells his his friend the other door fee [TS]

00:15:32   a set basically you're there [TS]

00:15:35   they've been eat there's no way they've [TS]

00:15:38   survived sorry dear [TS]

00:15:40   we have to go where we joined up with [TS]

00:15:42   the mercenaries now poor little tiny [TS]

00:15:45   female dwarf I felt so terribly bad for [TS]

00:15:49   her the entire sheet you know a lot of [TS]

00:15:51   RR Martin's women get screwed around in [TS]

00:15:54   this book but I I mean they do a very [TS]

00:15:57   good job painting her as kind of the [TS]

00:15:59   paragon of innocence and just watching [TS]

00:16:02   it shatter away piece by terribly torn [TS]

00:16:06   off pieces just a little heartbreaking [TS]

00:16:08   little said you know her brother was [TS]

00:16:11   killed horribly and and and all she's [TS]

00:16:15   got is the pig and the dog and [TS]

00:16:17   oh and the Empyrean won't love her no he [TS]

00:16:20   won't [TS]

00:16:20   it's true i might be the noblest thing [TS]

00:16:22   that he does though ya know it's true i [TS]

00:16:24   think and and you know I i really like I [TS]

00:16:27   really have always liked period although [TS]

00:16:29   i think he is a good example of a [TS]

00:16:32   character who is it got many many gray [TS]

00:16:35   areas but it's also very likeable and I [TS]

00:16:38   think we talked about that a bit in the [TS]

00:16:39   in the podcast about the TV show to [TS]

00:16:41   which is that you know his flaws are [TS]

00:16:44   that they're all up until you know the [TS]

00:16:46   end of the previous book he's really [TS]

00:16:47   loyal to his family huh yeah right up [TS]

00:16:51   until a certain point basically up into [TS]

00:16:53   a point where he learns that that was [TS]

00:16:55   not reciprocated right right you know [TS]

00:16:56   that he was not treated with the same [TS]

00:16:58   loyalty that he was giving a little long [TS]

00:17:00   so you know shoots dead wood cross but [TS]

00:17:01   ok as you do [TS]

00:17:03   yeah yeah yeah oh so I i have a question [TS]

00:17:05   about about about Tyrion story in this [TS]

00:17:08   book and it's where the horse go oh no [TS]

00:17:11   wait thats the question he asks 'i I was [TS]

00:17:14   a little disappointed that his story was [TS]

00:17:16   this goes back to a point i think red [TS]

00:17:18   made which is you know you wait so long [TS]

00:17:20   to get back to that character and I feel [TS]

00:17:22   as if george RR martin is writing seven [TS]

00:17:24   novels or eight novels about all the [TS]

00:17:26   characters in these books but you only [TS]

00:17:28   get up you know one seventh of the novel [TS]

00:17:31   each time interleaved with all the other [TS]

00:17:34   novels I don't know so i was a little [TS]

00:17:36   disappointed in interior story arc where [TS]

00:17:38   he's spent a lot of time traveling right [TS]

00:17:40   now not really doing anything brushes [TS]

00:17:44   with gray scale w/e i mean but the gray [TS]

00:17:47   scales are far more interesting victim [TS]

00:17:48   elsewhere write and so sometimes i think [TS]

00:17:51   i think the question for me is Tyrion [TS]

00:17:52   like if you look at the Arkin about what [TS]

00:17:54   he did in this book right [TS]

00:17:56   he traveled around a lot he introduced [TS]

00:17:59   us to a lot of other characters but [TS]

00:18:01   there's very little action that he [TS]

00:18:03   undertakes right and that's that's this [TS]

00:18:06   point after especially having such a [TS]

00:18:08   major action in the last book right is [TS]

00:18:11   you know if we have that culminating [TS]

00:18:14   point at the end of feast for crows and [TS]

00:18:15   and you know dance of dragons is largely [TS]

00:18:18   he's largely introspective right he [TS]

00:18:20   spends a lot of his time thinking about [TS]

00:18:21   things and not actually doing much again [TS]

00:18:25   i feel this is one of our Martin [TS]

00:18:27   sweetnesses is that he tries i mean i [TS]

00:18:30   under [TS]

00:18:30   stand that you need to have character [TS]

00:18:32   arcs in a in a long series and and [TS]

00:18:35   having the introspective moments and [TS]

00:18:36   having Denarius showing that she can [TS]

00:18:39   rule things and having Circe's fall from [TS]

00:18:41   Greece you know these are all important [TS]

00:18:43   things but I don't necessarily know if [TS]

00:18:45   keen can craft them properly [TS]

00:18:48   like I feel like we could have very [TS]

00:18:51   easily figured out that yes curious [TS]

00:18:53   Tyrion was feeling guilty and was [TS]

00:18:55   feeling problems and and wants nothing [TS]

00:18:57   more than to find Tasha but she has been [TS]

00:19:00   yesterday you know embark on this side [TS]

00:19:03   journey is as part of you know his [TS]

00:19:04   penance for fleeing fleeing west coast [TS]

00:19:08   but I feel like that could have been [TS]

00:19:09   wrapped up by a different writer and [TS]

00:19:11   like two chapters even I mean Tyrion [TS]

00:19:13   gets what six or seven chapters in this [TS]

00:19:15   book [TS]

00:19:16   beginning middle end what beginning [TS]

00:19:18   middle end it's not that there's that [TS]

00:19:20   there's a very definite structure that [TS]

00:19:21   you can do here but it feels like a lot [TS]

00:19:23   of middle here [TS]

00:19:24   yes very much does well it'sit's all [TS]

00:19:26   middle for Tyrion in this book it's all [TS]

00:19:28   metal for like this whole book is all [TS]

00:19:30   middle really yeah a lot of it is i mean [TS]

00:19:32   granted there are I you know having [TS]

00:19:35   having been critical I think there are [TS]

00:19:36   things i really enjoyed um I no no no he [TS]

00:19:39   didn't [TS]

00:19:40   that's right i didn't enjoy anything [TS]

00:19:41   about this book no I I mean all right [TS]

00:19:45   well okay hardest john-john storyline [TS]

00:19:48   uh-oh jon jon is one of the other most [TS]

00:19:50   of the characters see the problem with [TS]

00:19:51   John storyline as much as you know I [TS]

00:19:54   guess maybe my point of view is tempered [TS]

00:19:55   by looking back and thinking about where [TS]

00:19:57   that story line ends you will be [TS]

00:20:01   betrayed oh yeah whatever whatever your [TS]

00:20:04   sister will appear otherwise she's not [TS]

00:20:06   my sister really well it's similar but [TS]

00:20:09   if you will be betrayed you don't had [TS]

00:20:12   well I mean I thought I really actually [TS]

00:20:15   kind of in you know I liked his dilemma [TS]

00:20:17   right with trying to figure out like all [TS]

00:20:20   should I you know bring the wild things [TS]

00:20:21   over he's like all right I'm gonna do [TS]

00:20:22   this and like everybody else was like [TS]

00:20:25   you're nuts [TS]

00:20:26   Graham it was any but it was just its [TS]

00:20:30   decision that from you know from John's [TS]

00:20:31   perspective been seeing it through [TS]

00:20:32   John's perspective like this is actually [TS]

00:20:34   kind of makes sense right [TS]

00:20:36   this this seems like a you know I get an [TS]

00:20:37   unpopular decision but one that needs to [TS]

00:20:39   be made and there is a good argument [TS]

00:20:41   that like these least these people are [TS]

00:20:43   human [TS]

00:20:44   even if they don't always you know see [TS]

00:20:45   eye-to-eye with us they're not creepy [TS]

00:20:47   dead things you know stalking us but at [TS]

00:20:51   the same time yet there is a lot of [TS]

00:20:52   there's a lot of wrangling there's a lot [TS]

00:20:55   of back-and-forth with him I think that [TS]

00:20:56   storyline mirrors Denarius is storyline [TS]

00:20:59   as well right because they're both [TS]

00:21:00   struggling Colin struggling with our and [TS]

00:21:03   you know doing kind of administrative [TS]

00:21:04   things and getting coming to grips with [TS]

00:21:06   decisions and then getting our trade and [TS]

00:21:10   everyone's like oh what's going on are [TS]

00:21:12   always so inevitably that you know for [TS]

00:21:13   books down the road they can get married [TS]

00:21:15   right and because of Westeros killer [TS]

00:21:17   kill everybody else engine light right [TS]

00:21:20   because he's the actual air of the [TS]

00:21:22   Targaryen and his mother is Ned sister [TS]

00:21:25   and his father is the Prince Targaryen [TS]

00:21:29   who's who starts off the the whole war [TS]

00:21:32   that leads to the unit opposing the king [TS]

00:21:35   and everything right are we still going [TS]

00:21:37   on sat theory I I am I agree [TS]

00:21:40   what's up that's plausible theory I [TS]

00:21:41   don't we get we get we get new [TS]

00:21:44   information about John's mother though [TS]

00:21:46   in this book don't we [TS]

00:21:48   I feel like there's that there's that [TS]

00:21:49   entire story about John's mother is [TS]

00:21:52   there i don't think so there's all i [TS]

00:21:55   remember when i think of John's mother [TS]

00:21:57   all I remember is the first episode of [TS]

00:21:59   the TV show which shall be like don't [TS]

00:22:01   talk about your mother when I come back [TS]

00:22:04   yeah yeah no I said I think about what [TS]

00:22:07   jokes nose and because he's he's stabbed [TS]

00:22:10   me and the failure and when I always [TS]

00:22:13   friends so it was stabbed in the back by [TS]

00:22:14   all his resume so here's what to do with [TS]

00:22:17   it [TS]

00:22:17   it is my problem with it is the same [TS]

00:22:19   problem i had with the the searcy [TS]

00:22:21   cliffhanger in the last book which is in [TS]

00:22:23   Game of Thrones they chopped off his [TS]

00:22:26   head and he's dead and that's and that's [TS]

00:22:28   you know towards the end of the book and [TS]

00:22:29   you like how they're going to get out of [TS]

00:22:30   this one oh geez he's dead but but the [TS]

00:22:33   seriously thing and especially with John [TS]

00:22:36   I feel like there's so much run up to it [TS]

00:22:38   and it's like it's a cliffhanger and [TS]

00:22:39   there's no way I mean either he's not [TS]

00:22:41   dead or he's going to transfer his [TS]

00:22:43   spirit into some other person or [TS]

00:22:45   whatever but so it feels so artificial [TS]

00:22:49   that it leads to this point and it feels [TS]

00:22:51   so false that were being given a [TS]

00:22:52   cliffhanger that we know is not going to [TS]

00:22:55   be paid off whereas with Ned it [TS]

00:22:57   it's very clear that he was dead and not [TS]

00:22:58   coming back so I felt like that was [TS]

00:23:01   really unnecessary that if that's what [TS]

00:23:03   you're building up to is this is the [TS]

00:23:05   shocking moment that you're not going to [TS]

00:23:07   really be able to pay off [TS]

00:23:09   you know I i would really love i was [TS]

00:23:11   thinking just think about this what [TS]

00:23:12   you're saying is that i really would [TS]

00:23:13   love this to be end up being the story [TS]

00:23:15   of all the middlemen who you know keep [TS]

00:23:18   everything running and like they're [TS]

00:23:19   they're quite unsung victories I'm [TS]

00:23:21   thinking again about one of my other [TS]

00:23:23   favorite characters Davos Seaworth try [TS]

00:23:25   to get any night this book i love who [TS]

00:23:27   was killed off off-screen in the [TS]

00:23:29   previous book and only now do we [TS]

00:23:31   discover he wasn't killed it's all part [TS]

00:23:33   of a plan how you knew he wasn't killed [TS]

00:23:35   on the last yeah but what I was like no [TS]

00:23:38   but there's there's every possibility [TS]

00:23:39   even realize what we've seen and liked [TS]

00:23:41   it could happen [TS]

00:23:42   he's not that central of a character [TS]

00:23:44   he's a very likeable character but he's [TS]

00:23:45   not like a central character um and and [TS]

00:23:49   i don't know i like the idea of all the [TS]

00:23:50   middlemen being like yeah hey we're not [TS]

00:23:52   the big guys in decision-making you know [TS]

00:23:54   big guys and power making all the [TS]

00:23:55   decisions we just kind of slipped from [TS]

00:23:56   place to place but in the end you know [TS]

00:23:58   we're probably the most important people [TS]

00:24:00   here and i also thought I don't know [TS]

00:24:03   what do you guys think I want to ask you [TS]

00:24:05   what did you think of the beyond [TS]

00:24:07   storyline haha oh my god [TS]

00:24:10   creepy i never thought i would feel any [TS]

00:24:13   sort of pity for beyond great joy but [TS]

00:24:18   boy did I pity at pool yeah after that [TS]

00:24:24   it was interesting I mean it was brutal [TS]

00:24:26   and and disturbing this you know that [TS]

00:24:30   was a great story with you if you take [TS]

00:24:31   it was it was it was fascinating via the [TS]

00:24:34   best part of the book we talk about [TS]

00:24:35   middles beyond healing story came to an [TS]

00:24:39   end right he betrayed he betrayed the [TS]

00:24:42   Starks and and all that and history came [TS]

00:24:45   to an end and and then with this story [TS]

00:24:47   we get a complete story arc from feeling [TS]

00:24:50   where he starts at the lowest of the low [TS]

00:24:52   points and by the end is is calling [TS]

00:24:57   himself by his own name again and has [TS]

00:25:00   taken a take the women and basically [TS]

00:25:02   jumped jumped out of the castle to run [TS]

00:25:05   away to to the King means tried he tried [TS]

00:25:08   to atone right he's actually trying to [TS]

00:25:10   redeem him [TS]

00:25:10   so yeah yeah after he's and he's broken [TS]

00:25:13   and battered and that and that that's an [TS]

00:25:14   arterial knocked out yeah like that [TS]

00:25:16   that's he starts in one place and ends [TS]

00:25:19   up in another yeah thats oh so in this [TS]

00:25:21   book full of medals i really loved that [TS]

00:25:24   the feelings story was an actual story [TS]

00:25:28   with progression and and consequences [TS]

00:25:30   and yeah I i think yeah maybe that was [TS]

00:25:32   the best part of the book [TS]

00:25:35   trying to think of any others yeah we [TS]

00:25:36   got a couple chapters here and there for [TS]

00:25:38   some people who were in feast for crows [TS]

00:25:39   we got a little we get like one Jamie [TS]

00:25:41   chapter maybe to Jamie all that happens [TS]

00:25:44   with Jamie he goes to negotiate with me [TS]

00:25:46   with river i well know we thought that [TS]

00:25:49   we thought that uh that the debris and [TS]

00:25:51   was was baby dead which again is [TS]

00:25:54   bullshit hanger [TS]

00:25:55   yeah there's no way that but she shows [TS]

00:25:57   up at the end this question I mean she [TS]

00:25:59   might be dead and brought back because [TS]

00:26:01   that's what you happening but we did [TS]

00:26:03   they ever resolved i can honestly can't [TS]

00:26:06   remember because at the end of at the [TS]

00:26:08   end of book 3 there's a creek [TS]

00:26:09   cliffhanger where it turns out you know [TS]

00:26:11   cabins alive right yeah well she's the [TS]

00:26:13   great she's like the Grey Lady Rainicorn [TS]

00:26:15   she's stealing hard and she's gotten [TS]

00:26:17   right she's gotten especially [TS]

00:26:19   resurrected and so she appears and yeah [TS]

00:26:24   so that that's just what we don't see [TS]

00:26:25   her appear again after that right now [TS]

00:26:27   yeah yeah we do she she appears your [TS]

00:26:29   cruise i can't speak right or doesn't [TS]

00:26:31   speak clearly and and that's uh that's [TS]

00:26:34   obviously where because we see that with [TS]

00:26:36   Breanna it's with the the midst of the [TS]

00:26:39   Brotherhood yeah the guy who turned out [TS]

00:26:42   log beric Dondarrion and his rights [TS]

00:26:44   exactly marrying men [TS]

00:26:45   exactly so so I'm thoresen all those [TS]

00:26:49   right guys right so that's where Jamie's [TS]

00:26:52   going just like Jane let go [TS]

00:26:54   going in the end brands related and all [TS]

00:26:56   that but that that's clearly just you [TS]

00:27:00   know bridge by chapter to keep it alive [TS]

00:27:02   and not dealing with it right now [TS]

00:27:04   whereas some of these other storylines [TS]

00:27:06   like I was going to bring up brand who [TS]

00:27:09   kind of vanished [TS]

00:27:10   yeah is back and he didn't he that's a [TS]

00:27:13   bizarre story because he's like LED he [TS]

00:27:16   and then some people from the lowlands [TS]

00:27:18   are led into the far north by a guy who [TS]

00:27:21   is apparently a essentially a a dead guy [TS]

00:27:23   or a white Walker or whatever he is he's [TS]

00:27:25   a he said he's an animated corpse but [TS]

00:27:28   residents functional yeah and we'll just [TS]

00:27:31   as a ranger and arguably I mean you know [TS]

00:27:34   my first thought was that it's his uncle [TS]

00:27:36   yeah yeah benjamin has been [TS]

00:27:38   disappearances what book one yahoo news [TS]

00:27:40   be giving up my first book yeah yeah [TS]

00:27:42   very beginning so um that's weird and [TS]

00:27:44   then and there but that's not the weird [TS]

00:27:46   part because then there's a really [TS]

00:27:48   well scene where there's like the [TS]

00:27:49   hillside and it's covered in snow and [TS]

00:27:51   they try to go up it turns out there [TS]

00:27:52   like dead bodies everywhere in the snow [TS]

00:27:54   and they tried to kill them and they go [TS]

00:27:55   into the cave and then Brandon his [TS]

00:27:59   friends get to meet with the tree people [TS]

00:28:00   who are the children the children which [TS]

00:28:03   is that that's that was weird stuff that [TS]

00:28:06   was very creepy and then the a/c the [TS]

00:28:09   past two trees yet if they can kind of [TS]

00:28:12   interact but they can't really be CRO [TS]

00:28:14   and animal residents to write because he [TS]

00:28:16   he interacts with with a peon about this [TS]

00:28:20   point in the godswood he actually sees [TS]

00:28:22   that my thing is it is it with with [TS]

00:28:25   Cersei to I mean there there are several [TS]

00:28:27   points right right yeah our by trees and [TS]

00:28:29   it's like it is that as if the tree is [TS]

00:28:31   looking at me it's like that's because [TS]

00:28:33   it is great the tree just didn't agree [TS]

00:28:37   you know brands whole storyline here [TS]

00:28:39   actually reminds me of something that [TS]

00:28:40   happens and wise man's fear which I'll [TS]

00:28:42   save for the wine Spencer section of the [TS]

00:28:44   podcast but it's their parallels the [TS]

00:28:47   trees are the security cameras [TS]

00:28:49   yeah Westeros well um and then we have a [TS]

00:28:53   couple chapters from Astra Greyjoy's the [TS]

00:28:57   Greyjoy's in general career choice i [TS]

00:28:59   don't understand she's kind of an [TS]

00:29:01   interesting character I like her as a [TS]

00:29:03   character i think this book to [TS]

00:29:04   unfortunately didn't give her a Watson [TS]

00:29:05   yeah I liked her as a character before [TS]

00:29:08   she got her own point of view I liked [TS]

00:29:10   her when we initially met her through so [TS]

00:29:13   much [TS]

00:29:14   yeah I had a new she was happy when [TS]

00:29:17   she's well because it was that [TS]

00:29:18   uninteresting things in the last book [TS]

00:29:19   where it's where there's going to be a [TS]

00:29:21   king smooth and we're gonna pick a guy [TS]

00:29:22   and she says I'll be the king and those [TS]

00:29:25   they know you're a girl you can't be the [TS]

00:29:27   king and why you are get you and then [TS]

00:29:29   they send her off and you mean yeah so I [TS]

00:29:32   i took and we have a while to remember [TS]

00:29:34   who she was because that wasn't that [TS]

00:29:37   interesting the Ironborn of the Dornish [TS]

00:29:38   do not interest me only Michael Dore the [TS]

00:29:41   Dornish makes sense to me because they [TS]

00:29:43   at least have some power and they seem [TS]

00:29:45   to be interweaved with the Targaryen xin [TS]

00:29:48   a to a great extent i mean right but [TS]

00:29:50   yeah I have no idea why the Ironborn in [TS]

00:29:53   this book like they're what one or two [TS]

00:29:55   chapters with Victorian or Victarion or [TS]

00:29:57   whatever [TS]

00:29:58   yeah all of the other great joys I have [TS]

00:30:00   no idea is trying to do the same thing [TS]

00:30:02   as Martel right yes [TS]

00:30:04   everybody's trying to go Mary Mary [TS]

00:30:06   Dennis we could understand that LOL and [TS]

00:30:09   the missing Targaryen yeah gone [TS]

00:30:12   we got a couple of chapters of area who [TS]

00:30:14   I do well I love that remains one of my [TS]

00:30:17   favorite character that again we had [TS]

00:30:18   that kind of false cliff later was like [TS]

00:30:20   ooh she's blind [TS]

00:30:22   oh but it's just temporary she's not [TS]

00:30:24   yeah should get better [TS]

00:30:27   I mean she's joined she's trying to join [TS]

00:30:29   an organization that's all about false [TS]

00:30:31   facing I mean you kind of knew from the [TS]

00:30:33   beginning you know I just I i have no [TS]

00:30:36   idea why the Greyjoy's with the [TS]

00:30:38   exception [TS]

00:30:40   you know with one exception i have no [TS]

00:30:41   idea why the Greyjoy's are have been in [TS]

00:30:43   this series from the start because [TS]

00:30:45   everything i read is just kind of like [TS]

00:30:47   okay what we already have X people [TS]

00:30:49   competing for the throne it would be [TS]

00:30:51   real it would really suck if after you [TS]

00:30:53   know 8,000 pages it turned out that the [TS]

00:30:55   only reason we have to we have to read [TS]

00:30:56   about the door [TS]

00:30:58   nish people let me and the Greyjoy's is [TS]

00:31:00   because in the end you know they're [TS]

00:31:03   needed for some plot complication and [TS]

00:31:05   therefore we've spent a thousand pages [TS]

00:31:08   on them because getting into something [TS]

00:31:09   that was very soon and of arcane Oh [TS]

00:31:11   Westeros law that says when there are [TS]

00:31:14   two or three kids competing for the [TS]

00:31:16   undisputed that the ceremony can do that [TS]

00:31:19   right on Tuesday that's that's and [TS]

00:31:21   Daenerys from having like learned all [TS]

00:31:22   her like lawyerly stuff running that [TS]

00:31:24   city with you call over to a loophole [TS]

00:31:26   whatever Honor I have Jackie it all [TS]

00:31:28   turns into a courtroom or on our western [TS]

00:31:30   sea god pretty much know what the aria [TS]

00:31:33   stuff is good because that's a great [TS]

00:31:34   character and again it there's not [TS]

00:31:37   really much of an arc there but there's [TS]

00:31:39   a little bit i mean she's learning she [TS]

00:31:41   learns she learns how to follow the guy [TS]

00:31:43   and and ascend assassinate him basically [TS]

00:31:46   so that she she has some progression in [TS]

00:31:48   her character [TS]

00:31:49   it's a little frustrating because her [TS]

00:31:50   progression is you will become a [TS]

00:31:52   faceless assassin but it's there's no [TS]

00:31:54   doubt that that's important because we [TS]

00:31:56   had the whole thing in the last book [TS]

00:31:57   where you know where they're learning [TS]

00:31:59   the wherewithal the Meister's train and [TS]

00:32:01   and and there's the guy who takes the [TS]

00:32:04   form of the other guy who gets killed in [TS]

00:32:06   the prologue and all that's it it's [TS]

00:32:08   clear that that's really important for [TS]

00:32:10   later but [TS]

00:32:12   you know again it's just that's an [TS]

00:32:13   interesting point well now that you [TS]

00:32:15   brought that up in the prologue samples [TS]

00:32:16   right every book has a prologue and [TS]

00:32:18   epilogue and they're always pretty much [TS]

00:32:19   like one-offs right one-off narrators [TS]

00:32:21   and dance of dragons is no different at [TS]

00:32:24   the beginning we had that the wildling [TS]

00:32:26   skin-changer right is there several the [TS]

00:32:30   wolves and and tries to eat people and [TS]

00:32:33   crazy stuff and then doesn't really [TS]

00:32:35   become he's mentioned i believe a couple [TS]

00:32:37   times by the wild things but not seen [TS]

00:32:39   again right and then at the end we have [TS]

00:32:43   sir Kevin who is it that is actually [TS]

00:32:47   more of an interesting situation because [TS]

00:32:49   we also get the surprise return of [TS]

00:32:51   another character who is totally not in [TS]

00:32:53   this book [TS]

00:32:53   varus right we sort of squirrels himself [TS]

00:32:56   way I kind of like the app me again [TS]

00:32:58   he saved all the good stuff in the end [TS]

00:33:00   it's like I wanted to read the end of [TS]

00:33:01   the book and like that's all the only [TS]

00:33:02   part I cared about but you know we have [TS]

00:33:04   basically the death of a couple major [TS]

00:33:05   character is there and kill Vera skills [TS]

00:33:08   pycelle and Kevin Lannister right right [TS]

00:33:11   because it's all part of the plot to [TS]

00:33:13   which plot C apart [TS]

00:33:16   fuck somebody claimed his own baby is [TS]

00:33:18   playing his own game to write like [TS]

00:33:20   clearly just like he's got he's got an [TS]

00:33:22   agenda right I was like to him I think [TS]

00:33:25   he's you know he's like totally [TS]

00:33:27   untrustworthy I think he's a I think [TS]

00:33:28   he's a great character he's a [TS]

00:33:30   fascinating yeah it's nice to see him [TS]

00:33:32   back [TS]

00:33:33   so with all of this all of the said you [TS]

00:33:38   know and there is so much as it is a [TS]

00:33:40   thousand pages long [TS]

00:33:42   you know I want to ask about this book [TS]

00:33:45   in the context of the series because [TS]

00:33:46   there's really only there's no other way [TS]

00:33:48   to enjoy it or talk about it or anything [TS]

00:33:51   did you guys get the sense that because [TS]

00:33:56   again I i alluded to this at the [TS]

00:33:57   beginning he says oh it's a second book [TS]

00:33:59   series so two more books will all be [TS]

00:34:01   wrapped up i read this book thinking at [TS]

00:34:04   the pace that he's going [TS]

00:34:06   this will take 10 more books because I [TS]

00:34:08   felt to me like it up a little [TS]

00:34:09   the story the fact that well now i'm [TS]

00:34:13   concerned that if if he thinks he's got [TS]

00:34:15   two books to tell the rest of the story [TS]

00:34:16   i'm going to feel like we invested it [TS]

00:34:19   you know 8,000 pages to get to a [TS]

00:34:21   resolution that takes a hundred because [TS]

00:34:23   because we're all your aren't you [TS]

00:34:25   you're gonna feel a little bit that like [TS]

00:34:27   there's a point where it's just like we [TS]

00:34:29   have to skip forward like oh yeah two [TS]

00:34:31   years later [TS]

00:34:32   yeah it just it seems like the pacing is [TS]

00:34:34   all off if if this is booked five of [TS]

00:34:37   seven because we don't have a you know [TS]

00:34:40   watching that watching the TV show with [TS]

00:34:43   my wife she's got these expectations [TS]

00:34:45   about how to eros is gonna come to [TS]

00:34:47   westeros a-- i'm sitting in she's never [TS]

00:34:50   gonna come to westeros she's still not [TS]

00:34:52   in Westeros she may never get to [TS]

00:34:53   Westeros it's taken forever [TS]

00:34:55   it's like you know if he can he can [TS]

00:34:58   spend book six kind of bringing everyone [TS]

00:35:00   together and then book 7 which could be [TS]

00:35:02   like you know 4,000 pages finishing the [TS]

00:35:05   whole thing and tying itself is just a [TS]

00:35:07   big party except heart one book 7 part 2 [TS]

00:35:10   and exactly like the Harry Potter movies [TS]

00:35:13   yeah exactly yeah so I don't I think he [TS]

00:35:15   could do it I don't know if he is [TS]

00:35:17   disciplined enough to do it because he [TS]

00:35:20   enjoys writing this stuff that he thinks [TS]

00:35:22   about all this cool stuff he's like oh [TS]

00:35:23   this is so cool i need to write about [TS]

00:35:25   you know two characters that I've never [TS]

00:35:27   heard of but not have this complicated [TS]

00:35:29   roster reeling exactly and that's all [TS]

00:35:32   any it's like he gives he's still [TS]

00:35:34   unfolding right success without worries [TS]

00:35:36   about this world is still like [TS]

00:35:38   propagating in some ways and yet we're [TS]

00:35:40   at the same time we're all going [TS]

00:35:42   can you blow rein it in a little bit and [TS]

00:35:44   sort of focus [TS]

00:35:46   let's make a circle at least with the [TS]

00:35:47   brand stuff I felt like brand who has [TS]

00:35:49   been on a path where they've been [TS]

00:35:51   taunting us [TS]

00:35:52   he's been saying oh well together the [TS]

00:35:53   crow the three-eyed crow all that I feel [TS]

00:35:55   like we actually got somewhere with that [TS]

00:35:57   now we're which was good that was that [TS]

00:36:00   felt like forward motion to me but it [TS]

00:36:02   just it see it's so strange that and he [TS]

00:36:05   said you know he's this is we're seeing [TS]

00:36:07   building as as he goes and he releases [TS]

00:36:09   the installments but that's just a bad [TS]

00:36:11   feeling about this that there is no he's [TS]

00:36:14   gonna it's not two books worth of story [TS]

00:36:17   that are left user there's a great world [TS]

00:36:19   but the plot has started to take a [TS]

00:36:21   backseat to the world building but some [TS]

00:36:24   of the best characters regular catlin to [TS]

00:36:26   your point to kill catlin it's shocking [TS]

00:36:27   and then he makes the point of saying [TS]

00:36:29   haha but she's not dead she's been [TS]

00:36:31   resurrected in some way and then we [TS]

00:36:33   essentially two books go by where she's [TS]

00:36:35   in one chapter you know right and so [TS]

00:36:38   what was more [TS]

00:36:39   what was the point just lurking in the [TS]

00:36:41   background all will become clear [TS]

00:36:43   well you'll find out three bucks from [TS]

00:36:45   now [TS]

00:36:46   yeah you've got these kids because of [TS]

00:36:48   key characters and Jamie and this jamie [TS]

00:36:49   said but they can't all be important at [TS]

00:36:51   the end right like that yes yes they [TS]

00:36:53   could you never know Jaime and Brienne [TS]

00:36:54   are are really interesting important [TS]

00:36:56   characters they're basically not in this [TS]

00:36:58   either and then there's something I just [TS]

00:37:00   feel some frustration that like you've [TS]

00:37:01   got these really good characters we're [TS]

00:37:02   basically not seeing them and instead [TS]

00:37:04   you're introducing me to these new [TS]

00:37:07   characters like these Ironborn [TS]

00:37:09   characters and the Dornish characters [TS]

00:37:10   were conspiring and and they're just not [TS]

00:37:12   that interesting and so that that's a [TS]

00:37:14   frustration and you know I appreciate [TS]

00:37:16   authors trying to prostrate the readers [TS]

00:37:18   a little bit in order to tell a good [TS]

00:37:19   story but when you move you know main [TS]

00:37:21   characters off the board for you know [TS]

00:37:23   for a decade [TS]

00:37:25   that's kind of tough and I think I feel [TS]

00:37:27   like he might feel as though his readers [TS]

00:37:30   will feel ripped off if the book is you [TS]

00:37:32   know 400 pages long which I don't think [TS]

00:37:35   necessarily would be a bad plate [TS]

00:37:37   I don't know all these books need to be [TS]

00:37:38   thousand-page long he could tell the [TS]

00:37:40   story he can stick to the main [TS]

00:37:41   characters progressing along I'd be fine [TS]

00:37:44   with that if it was 400 good pages as [TS]

00:37:47   opposed to a thousand you know overall [TS]

00:37:50   mostly mediocre pages with you know some [TS]

00:37:52   good ideas here and some bad pages there [TS]

00:37:54   I think we'd all be like yeah that's [TS]

00:37:56   still pretty don't think that's I don't [TS]

00:37:58   think that's a serious writing [TS]

00:37:59   analytically and I i think the I i think [TS]

00:38:02   if he gave you four pages it would be [TS]

00:38:03   400 pages of the same stuff so you might [TS]

00:38:05   as well get a thousand out of it because [TS]

00:38:07   that's but that's the pace that's what [TS]

00:38:09   it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna [TS]

00:38:11   make it up in volume [TS]

00:38:12   yeah and just set up the way he's riding [TS]

00:38:14   slowly but surely i'm not selling these [TS]

00:38:17   books at a loss on the plus side [TS]

00:38:19   apparently he has stated publicly that [TS]

00:38:21   there are no more new POV characters [TS]

00:38:24   being introduced after this book and all [TS]

00:38:26   whatever we had what another the [TS]

00:38:29   freighter comes to be on a helicopter [TS]

00:38:31   drops a few characters are all my god [TS]

00:38:34   Jason you're just spoiled the whole [TS]

00:38:35   knows where his it's an island island [TS]

00:38:38   moves so any Indian thousand pages of [TS]

00:38:42   your time invested in this what what do [TS]

00:38:47   you think what was the what was the [TS]

00:38:48   verdict about about dance with dragons [TS]

00:38:51   I'll say I enjoyed it but having now [TS]

00:38:54   talked about it and realized all the [TS]

00:38:56   issues I had with it i'm not really in [TS]

00:38:59   any hurry to go back and really like I [TS]

00:39:01   thought about rereading this series [TS]

00:39:03   before because I couldn't remember most [TS]

00:39:05   of what happened and I thought about [TS]

00:39:07   that i thought about a little more and I [TS]

00:39:09   said you know what [TS]

00:39:10   no I don't there's not enough time I [TS]

00:39:12   just don't care enough and I think as [TS]

00:39:14   each book goes on i think it's unlikely [TS]

00:39:16   i will ever read these books I just kind [TS]

00:39:18   of wanted to be done [TS]

00:39:19   I mean I want to be done and done well [TS]

00:39:20   but i also just kind of wanted to be [TS]

00:39:22   over at this point [TS]

00:39:24   yeah I as somebody who you know I'd read [TS]

00:39:26   the first two books way back when and [TS]

00:39:29   then reread the entire series this year [TS]

00:39:32   and it took me something like four or [TS]

00:39:34   five months to finish all these [TS]

00:39:36   including dance with dragons and you [TS]

00:39:39   know they're good stories they're [TS]

00:39:42   engrossing but when I was you know Glenn [TS]

00:39:45   was asking if he should read them [TS]

00:39:46   because he'd never read them and I'm [TS]

00:39:47   like I have a hard time recommending [TS]

00:39:50   these books to anybody because it's not [TS]

00:39:52   I mean it's not that they're they're not [TS]

00:39:53   well-written and they don't have [TS]

00:39:54   interesting concepts but I'm like if I [TS]

00:39:57   if I had spent five months reading you [TS]

00:40:00   know a lot of other really good fiction [TS]

00:40:02   what I have been just as happy not [TS]

00:40:04   having this book in my life and not [TS]

00:40:06   having this book series in my life and I [TS]

00:40:07   think unfortunately I think the answer [TS]

00:40:09   is yes I'm like I'm not sure if there's [TS]

00:40:11   anything here that I it's got its got [TS]

00:40:14   into that hardest to recommend point [TS]

00:40:15   right like a book if you read a book if [TS]

00:40:17   there's only Booker to you be this is [TS]

00:40:19   really promising yeah I should tell [TS]

00:40:21   people read this or if it was you know [TS]

00:40:23   over and complete and I thought like [TS]

00:40:25   that you would you would have a full [TS]

00:40:26   picture of it but right now you're in [TS]

00:40:28   the middle so it's like right [TS]

00:40:29   recommending a book to somewhere in the [TS]

00:40:30   middle of it [TS]

00:40:31   I don't know how it turns out is in the [TS]

00:40:33   balance recommending lost at season 4 [TS]

00:40:36   yeah i think the game of films the the [TS]

00:40:38   whole series now is in this interesting [TS]

00:40:40   kind of cultural inflection point right [TS]

00:40:42   because people who would never in a [TS]

00:40:45   thousand years read fantasy novel are [TS]

00:40:48   picking up a game of thrones because of [TS]

00:40:49   the HBO series which i think is great [TS]

00:40:51   because it opens them up to a new genre [TS]

00:40:53   but i think on the other hand if I were [TS]

00:40:55   charged george RR martin i would feel [TS]

00:40:57   incredible journey thanks [TS]

00:40:59   rgr driver [TS]

00:41:00   anybody i would feel an incredible [TS]

00:41:04   amount of pressure to to you know live [TS]

00:41:07   up to these people's expectations and I [TS]

00:41:09   think the first book was the best book [TS]

00:41:11   out of the the five so far so kind of I [TS]

00:41:16   don't know it's a tough spot for him to [TS]

00:41:18   be and of course you know he can cry on [TS]

00:41:20   giant piles of money but exactly [TS]

00:41:22   alright and I I think I kind of agree [TS]

00:41:25   with that this was their parts of it [TS]

00:41:27   that I really liked and parts of it that [TS]

00:41:28   I felt frustrated by and I ate reminded [TS]

00:41:31   me of what i like about the series and [TS]

00:41:33   it made me think you know again nervous [TS]

00:41:35   thoughts about the building of this of [TS]

00:41:38   of the series and how it's gonna get [TS]

00:41:39   resolved but um but I still like the [TS]

00:41:41   series about by the next ball be there [TS]

00:41:43   by the next book 15 minute delay my ear [TS]

00:41:46   and he's acting like this point throwing [TS]

00:41:48   it away i mean i threw away through a [TS]

00:41:50   wheel a time after seven books and I [TS]

00:41:53   don't regret that but you know who knows [TS]

00:41:55   that was a smart plan as someone who has [TS]

00:41:58   read all of them who is my friend keeps [TS]

00:42:00   trying to convince me like all you have [TS]

00:42:01   the last ones with the ones have been [TS]

00:42:03   written by the other guy try and [TS]

00:42:04   actually pretty good i'm like i'm not [TS]

00:42:06   going for more books of craft just ate [TS]

00:42:08   two books that you think are all right [TS]

00:42:10   with it [TS]

00:42:10   read some of his original fiction and [TS]

00:42:12   this is why I don't read the harry [TS]

00:42:14   potter and harrypotter harrypotter all [TS]

00:42:17   of those books are energy are enjoyable [TS]

00:42:19   you know they have some crappy parts but [TS]

00:42:22   i would say each individual book is [TS]

00:42:24   light-hearted enough and fun enough that [TS]

00:42:26   you don't regret reading them i read the [TS]

00:42:28   first one and I regretted alright so [TS]

00:42:30   we're going to stop it there [TS]

00:42:32   we're going to press save on this [TS]

00:42:34   edition of the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:42:36   we're going to bring John syracuse it [TS]

00:42:38   back in and in our next episode we will [TS]

00:42:40   talk about Patrick Rothfuss 'as sequel [TS]

00:42:43   to the name of the wind all the wise [TS]

00:42:45   man's fear but until then I want to [TS]

00:42:48   thank everybody for listening i want to [TS]

00:42:49   thank my guest John siracusa serenity [TS]

00:42:52   Caldwell damn Lauren and Scott McNulty [TS]

00:42:54   for the uncomfortable podcast I'm Jason [TS]

00:42:57   Snell we'll see you next time [TS]

00:42:59   [Music] [TS]