The Incomparable

7: Law & Order: Atlantis

 

  the incomparable podcast episode 7 / [TS]

  2010 we are back on the incomparable [TS]

  podcast and today we're going to be [TS]

  talking about TV [TS]

  joining me here is serenity Caldwell ren [TS]

  welcome hello thank you [TS]

  and by the magic of the interwebs we [TS]

  have from the great state of [TS]

  Massachusetts dan more'n hi Jason and [TS]

  John siracusa greetings everyone [TS]

  are you sitting next to each other or [TS]

  you in your separate locations if only [TS]

  yes you'll never know already sitting [TS]

  next to each other alright I like to [TS]

  imagine it that way so the the topic is [TS]

  TV and I think we we all decided to [TS]

  correct me if I'm wrong that we were [TS]

  going to talk about the fall TV season [TS]

  you know I used to be so excited about [TS]

  the fall TV season when it when it [TS]

  happened and the new shows that were [TS]

  coming on and I cannot imagine a a fall [TS]

  season that I have been less interested [TS]

  in then this one is there anything for [TS]

  me to be excited about this fall [TS]

  well it's a little weird right because [TS]

  that the TV landscape has changed a lot [TS]

  in the last few years and I think that [TS]

  especially now with the cable networks [TS]

  we see so many shows that debut [TS]

  out-of-season like summer shows shows [TS]

  the debut debut midseason that it's [TS]

  really not as concentrated as it used to [TS]

  write used to be every fall you know [TS]

  that's when the new shows came out right [TS]

  but this stuff is very sprinkled [TS]

  throughout the year now and so you know [TS]

  I'm sure that the major a lot of the [TS]

  stuff aired on the major broadcast [TS]

  networks still comes out in the fall but [TS]

  yeah it's been it's been a little [TS]

  lackluster I feel like this year i think [TS]

  a lot of the better shows that are [TS]

  coming out are the cable shows really at [TS]

  this point the broadcast networks have [TS]

  have kind of put themselves in a strange [TS]

  position where they have to appeal to so [TS]

  many so many people but it really takes [TS]

  like a mega-hit to make it i find it [TS]

  funny that the the broadcast networks [TS]

  still are trying to do something that [TS]

  you could consider [TS]

  sort of fantasy or sci-fi even though it [TS]

  that I think that I suspect that the [TS]

  fantasy sci fi audience isn't large [TS]

  enough to actually satisfy any broadcast [TS]

  network and yet they still try well I [TS]

  find their uh I find that desperation [TS]

  endearing don't you like this and like [TS]

  the networks are just you know we've got [TS]

  to do something to get people to watch [TS]

  us because we're not capable and we [TS]

  can't cursor have nudity right but this [TS]

  isn't even see me crying they'll try [TS]

  sorts of crazy ideas and I I don't know [TS]

  why they keep going back to fantasy sci [TS]

  fi you're kind of right like even if you [TS]

  have a wildly successful show you won't [TS]

  get enough viewers but they see things [TS]

  like lost inside you know it can be done [TS]

  right that's the dream you know right [TS]

  it's possible and the number of if you [TS]

  look at the movie industry the number of [TS]

  successful especially blockbuster movies [TS]

  that are at least science fiction you [TS]

  might argue or a fantasy is actually [TS]

  pretty large I mean things like Star [TS]

  Trek and Star Wars obviously being you [TS]

  know at the top of that was all the [TS]

  blockbusters right all the movie [TS]

  westerns they always on the move like [TS]

  sci-fi edge or something right so you [TS]

  can't argue even though people do that [TS]

  people don't like the sci-fi or that or [TS]

  the genre stuff because those are the [TS]

  huge hits of the summer but on TV it [TS]

  seems like you can't get more than a few [TS]

  million people to watch one of those [TS]

  shows while they like it into our chunks [TS]

  you know some fantasy thing happens as a [TS]

  hero to villain a fight in two hours [TS]

  it's over if you're gonna get them [TS]

  coming back week after week I think [TS]

  people have shown what they want to [TS]

  happen are you know fights between [TS]

  mothers and daughters and unwanted [TS]

  pregnancies indonesia and all the things [TS]

  you see on like dogs here shows that [TS]

  lawyers cops cops that top show is [TS]

  remanded and murder in just human drama [TS]

  are the longest lasting shows with those [TS]

  ridiculous soap operas the ones that run [TS]

  for like 50 years being that the obvious [TS]

  example that you can just keep the show [TS]

  going forever so I think the more [TS]

  interesting is that the story is the [TS]

  smaller doses the public wanted to be in [TS]

  which kind of gets eventually to the [TS]

  whole lost backlash in anger you know [TS]

  the funny funny thing is that they've [TS]

  tried to mix them to write we had like [TS]

  space lawyers and space cops and space [TS]

  doctors and those haven't worked either [TS]

  so people don't even want their lawyers [TS]

  in space which way there was there were [TS]

  spaced lawyers don't remember Spacely [TS]

  where there's basically I thought [TS]

  that there was a I thought that was the [TS]

  show wasn't it wasn't on ebay stories [TS]

  the watcher lawyers right your lawyer I [TS]

  was at like century century city that's [TS]

  right [TS]

  God why do I know that future lawyers [TS]

  lawyers from the future where their [TS]

  argument that means a clever idea right [TS]

  it's like they're arguing cases that you [TS]

  could sort of extrapolate from the [TS]

  present and the future about like what [TS]

  if there was a case about clones and who [TS]

  wanted to be free and not be used as [TS]

  organ donors again that's more on the [TS]

  subjects and the sci-fi subjects and it [TS]

  is the characters I mean you look at the [TS]

  old cereals like Flash Gordon and things [TS]

  like that and I mean that did kind of [TS]

  have a serial of the week kind of thing [TS]

  that everybody likes so much and stuff [TS]

  like bones and castle and that you know [TS]

  typical cop dramas you have the series [TS]

  like the the big sort of action ideas [TS]

  that everybody's trying to cram into [TS]

  television this season they kind of [TS]

  forget about the human and it tastes [TS]

  like the human atmosphere even lost [TS]

  I mean the thing that people champion so [TS]

  much about lost a zoo the mysteries are [TS]

  pretty but we really theoretically care [TS]

  about are the characters and I think [TS]

  that plays into kind of tvs need who [TS]

  it's all about the crossover forwards [TS]

  law-and-order Atlantis [TS]

  Oh God hmm that's terrifying [TS]

  it will sell though people watch the [TS]

  sound effect there isn't like Clint love [TS]

  da ya slow plugging a slogan of death [TS]

  that's right is this is there like a [TS]

  fish whose the the judge murmur man if [TS]

  you will I'm well i was thinking like a [TS]

  normal justice and an alligator bailiff [TS]

  I think this is gold i think i think the [TS]

  studio should be lining up at the door [TS]

  dick wolf is already on that he's [TS]

  already printing money and we get [TS]

  nothing because he gets all the [TS]

  law-and-order money so despite this [TS]

  insanity or because of this insanity [TS]

  there are some genre TV shows this fall [TS]

  NBC is trying its level best to [TS]

  duplicate lost [TS]

  although it it's fear is that it's going [TS]

  to duplicate flash forward with the [TS]

  event [TS]

  hey Jason what is the event [TS]

  unfortunately you cannot be told the [TS]

  event you know great experience oh yeah [TS]

  that's right rule one of the event is [TS]

  that nobody talks about the event [TS]

  I say talk about little I i don't know i [TS]

  mean the event it do i I saw the second [TS]

  episode of the event actually and i miss [TS]

  the pilot and I saw the second episode [TS]

  although sometimes the second episode [TS]

  tells you a lot because if the second [TS]

  episode pilots can often be good and [TS]

  they spend lots of money on them right [TS]

  and then they do the second episode and [TS]

  they have a real budget and they they [TS]

  are a second episode is very always very [TS]

  illuminating yeah and it's hard i mean [TS]

  they tend to be bad even good shows the [TS]

  second episode tends to be bad because [TS]

  I've got to find their footing as a [TS]

  series anyway I saw it and I i just had [TS]

  that moment of like about my wife just [TS]

  that this is ridiculous i'm not watching [TS]

  this and and I was like well you know [TS]

  it's kind of vaguely compelling in a way [TS]

  that I felt about flash forward for a [TS]

  while and then but it just seems like [TS]

  it's a smattering of of various plot [TS]

  points and some wacky I mean there's [TS]

  definitely wackiness they they really [TS]

  downplayed whether it was a sci-fi or [TS]

  not and and then of course at the end of [TS]

  the of the pilot and airplane disappears [TS]

  through a wormhole [TS]

  oh I think it is sci-fi ask your eyes it [TS]

  is definitely science fiction and there [TS]

  are and there's like a population of of [TS]

  people who might be aliens or not and [TS]

  then a lot of people jump to the [TS]

  conclusion of their aliens but they've [TS]

  got our DNA they're just slightly [TS]

  different so are they from the future [TS]

  which makes it sort of like the 4400 [TS]

  that cable show which was about people [TS]

  from the future I think coming back [TS]

  something like that so you have you guys [TS]

  seen it have you guys seen you have been [TS]

  watching every episode because I'm that [TS]

  desperate for sci-fi and television and [TS]

  I don't know why I find myself compelled [TS]

  to watch the shows fringes another one [TS]

  then I guess we'll talk about later but [TS]

  i just want to see this type of story on [TS]

  television and no matter how badly done [TS]

  it is for example i watched all [TS]

  flash-forward I will watch it on the [TS]

  event i think is going to be another [TS]

  cautionary tale and it's going to be it [TS]

  could be like an a prototypical [TS]

  cautionary tale of what not to do when [TS]

  you're trying to duplicate the [TS]

  successful of a program like lost [TS]

  because they are doing all the exact [TS]

  same things you would do if you were [TS]

  trying to imitate lost but go overboard [TS]

  let's get all the ridiculousness of lost [TS]

  crashing when you're gonna actually [TS]

  matched with the realism of 24 [TS]

  yeah and they put it in the trailer the [TS]

  second I wish I could remember the [TS]

  tagline but they say something to the [TS]

  effect the subtext of what that said [TS]

  that tagline is is unlike that show lost [TS]

  we won't keep secrets from you forever [TS]

  and drive you crazy we're going to tell [TS]

  you everything up front so by the third [TS]

  episode they revealed more than lost in [TS]

  three seasons right and i think that [TS]

  maybe their their eventual undoing to a [TS]

  certain yeah like you begin to think [TS]

  that questions the questions on this [TS]

  show could potentially be interesting [TS]

  except they are answering them really [TS]

  quickly and I think the one thing that [TS]

  this does seem to lack so far that that [TS]

  is Ren said that lost really had going [TS]

  for it was characters and we don't have [TS]

  that on this show yet i think there are [TS]

  some good actors but like they're not [TS]

  necessarily people is not necessarily a [TS]

  character I feel like really invested in [TS]

  which ones are good actors what magical [TS]

  and mystical thing happened in the first [TS]

  in a first season of lost what could you [TS]

  point to how many sci-fi elements are [TS]

  there in that first season of loss right [TS]

  there are things I can always on my [TS]

  lawyer there's no way there's there's a [TS]

  monster that might or might not be [TS]

  supernatural and there's walk walking [TS]

  right and as the polar bear and the [TS]

  horse that's not so how do ya thats just [TS]

  a great girl and mr. but an exotic is [TS]

  not specifically sci-fi my point being [TS]

  that they took 22 hours to emotionally [TS]

  tell character stories with a little [TS]

  tinge of of you know sci-fi is a nice [TS]

  i'm making hand gestures that ring gonna [TS]

  see and it's disconcerting when the when [TS]

  the uncomfortable is not just an audio [TS]

  podcast anyway uh you know they have the [TS]

  time with the with the characters and [TS]

  and i feel like these other shows one of [TS]

  the problems with thought flash forward [TS]

  with the event is that they don't have [TS]

  enough confidence in their ability to be [TS]

  a good show without all the flashing the [TS]

  bang and so they drop in all the crazy [TS]

  sci-fi elements and are missing what I [TS]

  think made lost work at least for some [TS]

  people for a while because I know John [TS]

  feels totally ripped off by lost but um [TS]

  but they did at least you got to admit [TS]

  that they spend time with these [TS]

  characters and yeah i think that that [TS]

  show does not pay off at all if you're [TS]

  not invested in the characters are you [TS]

  know totally I know that's pretty much [TS]

  what but the payoff is if you believe [TS]

  there to be a pale and I think that yeah [TS]

  definitely the event doesn't have that [TS]

  yet it really has an established a [TS]

  strong case for it going in it does [TS]

  still have some great story hooks i have [TS]

  to say that I think that you know I've [TS]

  watched all three episodes i guess and [TS]

  the though at least the most recent one [TS]

  the cliff the sort of my last seen that [TS]

  they review on is a great scene it just [TS]

  is really one of those sort of whoa [TS]

  what's going on your scenes and not to [TS]

  like keep hooking you in for that next [TS]

  show but they'll resolve it within the [TS]

  first scene of the next show right maybe [TS]

  I got even down this was a kid like I [TS]

  was bottled my mind was bottle when they [TS]

  were like hitting it there that maybe [TS]

  these people infiltrating certain ranks [TS]

  like they dropped the hint at first when [TS]

  they drop it verbally they say hey you [TS]

  know they have some guys say on camera [TS]

  there maybe you know who knows how [TS]

  deeply they've infiltrated the very next [TS]

  scene like yep that's kind of what they [TS]

  spend you know there's like four [TS]

  episodes not revealing who Ben was when [TS]

  he was a henry gale or whatever like for [TS]

  a parabola to that this is not the same [TS]

  as which seems without giving away the [TS]

  answer but don't worry because they have [TS]

  like 50 more questions to pull out more [TS]

  about this okay we answer that board [TS]

  about this okay we answer that you can't [TS]

  build the show on that you're going down [TS]

  a check coughing all the wrong things [TS]

  about lost reminded me a little bit of [TS]

  heroes actually which was sort of in its [TS]

  first season people said see it's like [TS]

  lot it's not it's like lost but better [TS]

  because they are answering questions [TS]

  since like yeah they're there they are [TS]

  answering questions that's one thing you [TS]

  get when you many questions nobody [TS]

  nobody watches and we're gonna get any [TS]

  more ice and eventually just becomes [TS]

  ridiculous like three episodes and it's [TS]

  already kind of ridiculous you have you [TS]

  can't name a show the event and then you [TS]

  know you're really gonna find out what [TS]

  the event is or not and at this rate [TS]

  we're going to find out what the event [TS]

  is in two episodes and then what are [TS]

  they going to do I guess they'll be [TS]

  cancelled that so and what you got us [TS]

  but talk about the acting you've got [TS]

  Jason Ritter running around basically [TS]

  saying where's my girlfriend with my [TS]

  girlfriend you've got blair Underwood [TS]

  saying I'm the president [TS]

  i'm the president and then you've got [TS]

  laura innes who I think was cast in this [TS]

  because she sort of talks like an alien [TS]

  so let her be an alien all right [TS]

  elko evonik who is my favorite the [TS]

  creepy City Security Advisor guy [TS]

  yes that's his third party was born to [TS]

  play while United States basically [TS]

  played that part in in the first season [TS]

  of 24 too i think are roughly about that [TS]

  some other equally sinister oh yeah I [TS]

  was the Magister under blood or it may [TS]

  be yeah i think so I it's funny because [TS]

  I first saw him in homicide where he was [TS]

  a good guys everywhere and anybody is [TS]

  almost always a bad guy and but he was [TS]

  introduced to me as a good guy on [TS]

  homicide [TS]

  and so now it's always am always [TS]

  disappointed because I was like he might [TS]

  be a good guy he might not be evil and [TS]

  he's always evil and it's too bad [TS]

  because you know on homicide he was a [TS]

  good guy [TS]

  why do you think it's something [TS]

  interesting to be said for the event [TS]

  that intern at least for me I've watched [TS]

  three episodes i can think of everybody [TS]

  by their character their character [TS]

  archetypes but i cannot in any way think [TS]

  of their names i can't think of Jason [TS]

  others named in the like his character [TS]

  named justin was writing his [TS]

  girlfriend's name is Lila or leila or [TS]

  something like that and i can't remember [TS]

  I can't remember his name I can't [TS]

  remember the cops like I can't remember [TS]

  any i can remember the president's name [TS]

  although i don't think that president [TS]

  Taylor Underwood's that's the point we [TS]

  remember the actors and we remember I [TS]

  mean if it's a good character drama it [TS]

  you should be able to remember [TS]

  characters you should not have to resort [TS]

  to television without your drama poses [TS]

  like a it's like a video game we're all [TS]

  it is is set pieces and cutscenes right [TS]

  well I mean it's never intentional I [TS]

  gameplay there's a difference between [TS]

  relying on actors and relying on [TS]

  characters right like you know there are [TS]

  solid actors in that show but they're [TS]

  not playing characters and remanding [TS]

  wayside internet to say exposition and [TS]

  look out and come here and I have to [TS]

  find my girlfriend and then you know the [TS]

  people who are given any exit that this [TS]

  dramatic scenes between people were [TS]

  someone has information that the other [TS]

  person doesn't want to have and they do [TS]

  nothing with them like think of all the [TS]

  scenes with the henry lost where they [TS]

  have this big dance with so many [TS]

  different characters trying to figure [TS]

  out if it's legit or not that's good [TS]

  writing that's the way you do that in [TS]

  this show is just by the numbers guy [TS]

  goes into the room I need to know the [TS]

  answers now is I'm the president I can [TS]

  tell you've seen over [TS]

  well that's not a show i think i think i [TS]

  was trying to think about how lost would [TS]

  do it but the problem is that i think [TS]

  there's also just fear involved in the [TS]

  creative choices being made here because [TS]

  they're afraid they're going to get [TS]

  cancelled so quickly so they try to [TS]

  trying to make an impression but the [TS]

  problem is if you if you run that pace [TS]

  too long like John what you said that [TS]

  they will run out of things to talk [TS]

  about and and you know I when I think [TS]

  about what loss would do with something [TS]

  like the event I think okay there's a [TS]

  really great story in these people who [TS]

  were being kept in that camp in Alaska [TS]

  or wherever and and and then discovering [TS]

  that they were not actually quite human [TS]

  and all of that and yet you know that's [TS]

  just tossed off and then they move on [TS]

  with you no more people running through [TS]

  the desert next [TS]

  lotions and car chases and and people [TS]

  escaping from the police and and stuff [TS]

  that's sort of your bog-standard action [TS]

  device which is why I think you know [TS]

  what they're really trying to do is is [TS]

  is do 24 more than they're trying to do [TS]

  lost which was a completely although not [TS]

  really a genre show in the sense of [TS]

  being you know explicitly fantastic it [TS]

  was also something that was completely [TS]

  fantasy and could never possibly happen [TS]

  and was just wall-to-wall action [TS]

  the event is really reminds me of one of [TS]

  my favorite sort of apocryphal stories [TS]

  about about the Olive Garden of all [TS]

  places which is to say is that there's [TS]

  this this law is sort of you know urban [TS]

  legend type story i don't know if this [TS]

  is true enough but i love the idea of [TS]

  this story which is that they spent you [TS]

  know they spent a million dollars trying [TS]

  to make their sauce [TS]

  they're like red pasta sauce as bland as [TS]

  possible so that there's many people as [TS]

  possible with like it which i just i [TS]

  mean i think that's that's such a a [TS]

  microcosm of all these issues of we're [TS]

  going to try to make this program as [TS]

  kind of inoffensive as possible in terms [TS]

  of not like riling up anybody or not [TS]

  doing anything particularly innovative [TS]

  so that people will watch it like so [TS]

  that it's not necessarily bad but it's [TS]

  just kind of bland they don't want to [TS]

  challenge the audience that's the thing [TS]

  I lost lost would challenge the audience [TS]

  are not one good example of that is they [TS]

  see that are lost always did flashbacks [TS]

  let's do flashbacks my first of all they [TS]

  don't they forgot the reason loss was [TS]

  doing the flashbacks was for character [TS]

  development they never do them for [TS]

  character development on the event and [TS]

  seconds every time they have a flashback [TS]

  a title comes flying at you in 3d [TS]

  I'll tell you exactly tell you look at [TS]

  how long ago I wasn't it's comical like [TS]

  10 minutes ago it seemed minutes ago [TS]

  22 minutes ago that is the funny hopping [TS]

  about that show it is it makes me laugh [TS]

  at you can do a drinking game based on [TS]

  that is seriously like 10 minutes before [TS]

  three minutes later eight days earlier [TS]

  for years earlier wait don't tell us [TS]

  what's the city we can figure it out [TS]

  from context if you write it while lost [TS]

  never did that lost change scenes and [TS]

  you had no idea and I wasn't totally [TS]

  started to talk that's the point though [TS]

  is like in a show like lost they treated [TS]

  the audience is smart enough as if we're [TS]

  flashing to 1944 you're going to be able [TS]

  to tell by the clothing you the costume [TS]

  choices and you're going to be able to [TS]

  tell because someone's gonna drop it in [TS]

  dialogue you don't need to tell somebody [TS]

  by three [TS]

  when the words at them or are by what [TS]

  they seem to know they seem to think [TS]

  this person is still alive this seems [TS]

  not know about exit must be before why [TS]

  like you know just it's the event is so [TS]

  dumb down that there's nothing left to [TS]

  do except to just watch events unfolded [TS]

  i feel like i could get a synopsis of [TS]

  the event and I'm the one they should [TS]

  have just called it events that would be [TS]

  a good name through a series of events [TS]

  that are happening [TS]

  um ok so let's move on and talk to you [TS]

  what you wanna talk about dumb shows [TS]

  because i don't want to follow that [TS]

  oh ok go ahead I i have a list here but [TS]

  you can you can drive your color go [TS]

  ahead is no is no ordinary family and in [TS]

  fact it's funny that you should mention [TS]

  again because i was about to say so no [TS]

  no ordinary family is another show that [TS]

  sort of a bizarre fusion actively dump [TS]

  the incredibles and well really the [TS]

  incredibles is is the is the mode it's a [TS]

  live-action version of The Incredibles [TS]

  which itself was sort of a watch men [TS]

  happy Fantastic Four kind of thing again [TS]

  it was in fun right it had good [TS]

  characters it was funny it had something [TS]

  to go for it where is no ordinary family [TS]

  like forget subtext barely has text so I [TS]

  guess what I'm fast as you know I out so [TS]

  I watched the pilot and i kinda liked it [TS]

  i mean let me let me say that back it up [TS]

  and their credit they don't come on i [TS]

  can take it but bring it on it has some [TS]

  of the worst dialogue [TS]

  yes some of the most like terrible [TS]

  character development again no subtext [TS]

  no response [TS]

  I admit there are couple things in the [TS]

  show where I thought usually sort of the [TS]

  twist part oh yeah oh ok that's kind of [TS]

  interesting there were some references [TS]

  in there that I thought were good there [TS]

  was some like comic book and and [TS]

  pop-culture references that were not [TS]

  yelling graph that were just like oh i [TS]

  see what they did there which is not [TS]

  migrate all that what happened yes there [TS]

  was all there were playing with [TS]

  micronauts and in fact the only show i [TS]

  can that's made reference to the [TS]

  Micronauts actually as freaks and geeks [TS]

  and for that I will always love it but [TS]

  there's like a watchman reference at one [TS]

  point that you could you but you have to [TS]

  know the ride kicks are so much more [TS]

  interested in the actual and Levy and [TS]

  the dial your right is dialogue is on [TS]

  the nose like that the whole point [TS]

  obviously was we're going to write this [TS]

  and the family is going to have some [TS]

  just like the incredibles actually [TS]

  there's going to be some problems [TS]

  between [TS]

  wife and husband and accept that it's [TS]

  sort of like I am happy i am not [TS]

  entirely satisfied in my marriage wife [TS]

  well husband you have issues with me [TS]

  being so such a successful business [TS]

  person you know where it's just like [TS]

  guys come on i mean it's very obvious [TS]

  what the situation is in that household [TS]

  and yet you end up with all this dialog [TS]

  where Julie Benz has to explain that [TS]

  she's a very successful businesswoman [TS]

  you know I got that eight scenes ago [TS]

  when you were putting on your suit and [TS]

  and going to the make a corporation and [TS]

  having the meeting with the bosses have [TS]

  you had better get into the second [TS]

  episode there they literally have like [TS]

  they introduce you know a couple server [TS]

  side characters like neighbors who [TS]

  literally have lines like oh I leave my [TS]

  phone on so my children can reach me if [TS]

  they need me or wow must be like they [TS]

  have a another husband's basically yeah [TS]

  well someone's gotta earn the money for [TS]

  your family or whatever like they [TS]

  literally like just sailing out they [TS]

  live this is set in an alternate [TS]

  universe where there is no subtext [TS]

  pretty much it's just people just say [TS]

  things that they're thinking you know I [TS]

  i agree with all that and yet I felt [TS]

  much more inclined to watch another [TS]

  episode III when i finished the pilot of [TS]

  no ordinary family i recorded the second [TS]

  episode as opposed to the event where I [TS]

  finished the second episode of the event [TS]

  and said yeah I don't think I'm gonna [TS]

  come back here maybe on netflix or [TS]

  something [TS]

  so whatever it was about it i mean that [TS]

  the twist in the enough pilot the twist [TS]

  is that this guy you think that you're [TS]

  watching I are our newly RR commish our [TS]

  shield micra checklists we talk about [TS]

  that but we talked about having a [TS]

  barbarous Michael check but we've got a [TS]

  shovel the objects gerald [TS]

  yes I'm suddenly going to show that just [TS]

  a bit lighter and only not that not only [TS]

  that I mean like I have trouble with the [TS]

  associations with both of those actors [TS]

  just because Michael chick was yeah i [TS]

  watched all the shield the shield's a [TS]

  great show [TS]

  it is really hard to see him in a role [TS]

  that is 180 degrees from that role and [TS]

  of course julie benz also playing she [TS]

  was also on Buffy to ashes Darla ate a [TS]

  vampire and so and whistling twice and [TS]

  of course i like both of those actors i [TS]

  think there again their characters [TS]

  really have little to do and have kind [TS]

  of no chemistry though I you know I [TS]

  hesitate to blame the after [TS]

  actors as I think they have so little [TS]

  work within that script but um I don't [TS]

  know it just [TS]

  but i like to try again i do i did like [TS]

  the sort of the twist at the end so that [TS]

  sort of the guy that he's fighting you [TS]

  have a guy that he's finding that you [TS]

  think it's just some sort of bog [TS]

  standard Robert turns out that he can [TS]

  like teleport in a puff of black smoke [TS]

  so he sort of the night crawler analog [TS]

  in this except he doesn't look like a [TS]

  devil and and Stephen colonize Stephen [TS]

  lawman's s.korea in fact I shouted at [TS]

  the TV when that happened I said no [TS]

  Stephen Collins no no you're no longer [TS]

  one of every chapter is a bad guy [TS]

  oh come on Stephen Collins yes but it's [TS]

  kind of fantastic [TS]

  I know if the thing about an ordinary [TS]

  family is like it's it's so cheesy it's [TS]

  unbelievably cheated and like it grates [TS]

  against my skin in my eyeballs and like [TS]

  everything but it's sometimes a big [TS]

  cheese grater oh it is it don't but at [TS]

  the same time like well I could put this [TS]

  on while i was doing laundry it's a good [TS]

  like it'sit's the first cut the first [TS]

  couple of at Castle episodes were for me [TS]

  which is like this is cute but it's [TS]

  nothing special and I mean castrated [TS]

  become something more interesting and [TS]

  I'm kind of hoping but I mean the way [TS]

  the writing is right now which makes me [TS]

  so sad because it's it's great plenty [TS]

  right who's Kosho running this yes did [TS]

  ever would in general Bobby and well and [TS]

  the hope and and I haven't seen the [TS]

  second episode which will probably crash [TS]

  my crush my hopes but that my hope was [TS]

  iffy if you get the balance right you've [TS]

  got something that isn't necessarily [TS]

  like Buffy level but you've got the [TS]

  ability to explore kind of you got ya [TS]

  like friday night lights you've got a [TS]

  plot with with a marriage that's [TS]

  interesting and they've got adult issues [TS]

  and you've got the kids and you've got [TS]

  their high school issues and they're [TS]

  growing up issues and any and you throw [TS]

  this layer of of of fantasy on top of it [TS]

  that sort of heightens everything and it [TS]

  could be good [TS]

  that butters there's potential there's [TS]

  moments of brilliance and especially I [TS]

  know you said you haven't seen the [TS]

  second episode yet but there's a there's [TS]

  a similar sort of like all twist but [TS]

  there's something that happens at the [TS]

  end of the second episode that surprised [TS]

  me because it was really dark [TS]

  well there's darkness in this and I mean [TS]

  I when the plane crashes in the in the [TS]

  pilot and a and a pilot Lee well pilot [TS]

  is dead because that's a good sign of [TS]

  any company so [TS]

  anytime toilet that uh is in a pilot [TS]

  will die [TS]

  that's the rule it's it's the title [TS]

  character from the pilot and co-pilot [TS]

  always dies but they have the blob I i [TS]

  will say I'm getting tired of the [TS]

  conspiracy thing I thought that was cool [TS]

  that they go to Brazil and there's like [TS]

  stuff in the Amazon that gives them [TS]

  powers but it was so obvious by the end [TS]

  of the first episode that so well the [TS]

  company has a thing in the Amazon and [TS]

  they they they know about the powers and [TS]

  it's obviously a conspiracy and [TS]

  something's going on my that really a [TS]

  conspiracy whatever happened to cause [TS]

  we're a on this wiki right well yeah I [TS]

  mean I'd rather it be a fantastic thing [TS]

  that maybe you maybe plays out over a [TS]

  long period of time I was thinking well [TS]

  this is cool over over an entire year [TS]

  they could end up having to go back to [TS]

  the Amazon and try to figure out what it [TS]

  is and what's causing it like note they [TS]

  again they they went right to it in in [TS]

  the pilot which was I was a little [TS]

  disappointed by that so do we really [TS]

  need to start eating our own premise [TS]

  while we're setting the premise I don't [TS]

  know but I i recorded the second episode [TS]

  so it obviously did something maybe I [TS]

  need to just fold my laundry [TS]

  well I mean the thing about this i watch [TS]

  the second episode and the second [TS]

  episode again the writing just as [TS]

  terrible the cheesiness probably there [TS]

  there's if there's one point where the [TS]

  husband and wife are in bed and like [TS]

  tell me your three favorite word's or [TS]

  something like that or my three favorite [TS]

  word's and the husband's like you were [TS]

  right and then they do the I love you [TS]

  and it's just like it's so painful but [TS]

  I'm i mean the cheesiness aside there [TS]

  are moments of brilliance you know Peter [TS]

  by minutes of tedium and I mean it all [TS]

  works out and i feel like i can still [TS]

  watch it especially with like the last [TS]

  10 minutes of the second episode which [TS]

  is dan brought up it's like ok they're [TS]

  compelling things you're not afraid to [TS]

  put characters in danger like that and [TS]

  I'm like alright as long as you can stop [TS]

  stating everything of like no subtext [TS]

  would say it has the glee problem maybe [TS]

  i can maybe I can forgive the lack of [TS]

  good dialogue and I because it's an [TS]

  attempt to kind of explore characters in [TS]

  a way that I couldn't forgive the event [TS]

  for taking its characters and basically [TS]

  making them little plate little pieces [TS]

  on a game board that they slide around [TS]

  maybe I'm maybe that says something [TS]

  about me that I was actually more [TS]

  willing [TS]

  to forgive the show with a bad dialogue [TS]

  even know what I recognize that it's bad [TS]

  dialogue and I don't like bad dialogue [TS]

  because i like what they were trying to [TS]

  do and could see some potential and that [TS]

  where the event was just sort of noisy [TS]

  and and full of little kind of puppet [TS]

  characters at least they're trying to [TS]

  make some kind of character as opposed [TS]

  and I would and I i like the scenes [TS]

  where that you know especially in the [TS]

  second episode there's some really good [TS]

  scenes were where Michael Chiklis his [TS]

  character whose name I can't remember [TS]

  Jim something I mr. incredible [TS]

  no yeah choice to pick so it's sort of [TS]

  how his powers work there's an [TS]

  interesting like that in the pilot [TS]

  listicle talking about the the [TS]

  references I mean I I felt like there [TS]

  was a watchman reference in the pilot I [TS]

  thought that there was a tick reference [TS]

  in the pilot I thought that there was an [TS]

  invincible invincible [TS]

  yeah no not invincible unbreakable [TS]

  reference in the pilot too so I did feel [TS]

  and maybe and because i love i love and [TS]

  braker leading into that if I just it [TS]

  may be well because they're all they're [TS]

  all superhero stories right so maybe i'm [TS]

  just reading into it but but my larger [TS]

  point here is that as somebody who loved [TS]

  the movie unbreakable and loved the [TS]

  incredibles I do have a soft spot in my [TS]

  heart for us a show that seems to [TS]

  essentially be viewing those kind of [TS]

  stories as the model here i mean in some [TS]

  ways this is and heroes had a couple [TS]

  moments of that in its first season [TS]

  right before when I'm an idea there was [TS]

  there's a great scene where where Peter [TS]

  milo ventimiglia character tries to [TS]

  figure out if he can he can fly by like [TS]

  trying to jump off like a right monkey [TS]

  that's in the playground oh yeah right [TS]

  which is to any just Falls or gonna say [TS]

  anything like that I just I i love those [TS]

  maybe it was gonna sucker for practicals [TS]

  but I just I think it's the end this is [TS]

  a couple of really great ones in the [TS]

  second episode [TS]

  yeah so you know I don't know what that [TS]

  says John I mean I think you might want [TS]

  to give it a try just because you are so [TS]

  hungry for this stuff I i setup to [TS]

  record just because i saw the ads and [TS]

  incredible my favorite Pixar movie [TS]

  unbreakable is my favorite and night [TS]

  movie I'm with you there on both of us [TS]

  I'm all set to to like this but I have a [TS]

  500 tolerance for schlock and shows that [TS]

  there are very few shows that he could [TS]

  make that transition from like hockey [TS]

  stealing this to drama like Buffy would [TS]

  be one example where kind of start silly [TS]

  but then they start cranking right it [TS]

  drama later on that's why I still have [TS]

  some hope for no ordinary family as if [TS]

  they can make that [TS]

  turn ya transmission and really hard to [TS]

  make like a hero's was always dour from [TS]

  the beginning that was the problem [TS]

  heroes like that one good season up to [TS]

  the end but they were just always take [TS]

  themselves so seriously superhero right [TS]

  great hero was the only good in the [TS]

  first season like heroes story was was [TS]

  hilarious and light and funny and [TS]

  self-aware and the rest of it was the [TS]

  same term irrationally get them [TS]

  yeah but so hows I think your family [TS]

  badly needs new writers maybe they'll [TS]

  get some new blood as it progresses if [TS]

  they survive long right and if they [TS]

  figure out what this let's first the [TS]

  event are no ordinary family [TS]

  I think no ordinary family gets [TS]

  cancelled first on that i would agree [TS]

  it's more likely mostly because of that [TS]

  no ordinary family is on ABC and ABC is [TS]

  doing better and NBC is so desperate [TS]

  that they any event ratings aren't so [TS]

  bad that I think NBC has shown that [TS]

  they'll let something right for a whole [TS]

  year whereas if no ordinary family I [TS]

  think it's too early to tell but if the [TS]

  ratings keep dropping they'll replace it [TS]

  with something else I mean their ratings [TS]

  haven't been bad especially going up [TS]

  against Glee which is a big thing right [TS]

  well we'll see so we'll see we'll see [TS]

  but I i think just playing the odds i'd [TS]

  say that the show on NBC has a greater [TS]

  likelihood of staying around just [TS]

  because they're hoping that it'll it'll [TS]

  catch fire and they've got nothing to [TS]

  replace it with NBC is a bit content [TS]

  laughs at the moment yes the the sad [TS]

  little peacock and they're going through [TS]

  there also we also going through an [TS]

  executive transition right now so so so [TS]

  yes there's a merger and Jeff sucker is [TS]

  leaving and they've got the new guy in [TS]

  charge of programming and so that that [TS]

  may make it unsettled as well so so [TS]

  let's move on [TS]

  I actually wanted to talk about fringe a [TS]

  little bit which came up earlier fringe [TS]

  which is not new but is back for its [TS]

  third season on Fox and I'm just going [TS]

  to go out and say it i think fringe is [TS]

  the best sci-fi show on TV right now I [TS]

  think I think every season has improved [TS]

  I'm shocked at how much better it has [TS]

  gotten in fact all the end is starting [TS]

  at the end of the first season where [TS]

  they released you know start doing [TS]

  mythology stuff [TS]

  yeah and then they you know they had a [TS]

  couple one-offs in the second season but [TS]

  also some really great episodes in the [TS]

  second season including the the retro [TS]

  episode [TS]

  yeah it's just that was fans [TS]

  ask they didn't I mean not only just [TS]

  whatever special effects they used to [TS]

  make john noble look 20 years younger [TS]

  but they just did a great job and it's a [TS]

  show that's managed I think finally [TS]

  managed to find its footing and there's [TS]

  a show that that cloaked it's super [TS]

  science fictional premise inside a more [TS]

  comfortable premise that the comfortable [TS]

  promise was like the x-files right it [TS]

  was like weird things are happening and [TS]

  they investigate them but in the end it [TS]

  turned out know this is a show about [TS]

  parallel universes clashing with each [TS]

  other and they took a year to get there [TS]

  that's what I would like the show to be [TS]

  about the end of the first season I [TS]

  almost stopped watching and they said no [TS]

  yet that show that they had at the end [TS]

  of the first season that's the show I [TS]

  want to watch yes I want but the season [TS]

  two is that going to be the show or that [TS]

  we're going to go back to Monster of the [TS]

  Week and like they're always on the line [TS]

  between iron I have to be honest I'm not [TS]

  going to make me stop watching but have [TS]

  you seen yes i have seen this seasoning [TS]

  for the show [TS]

  yeah i was seems pretty much a clear [TS]

  I mean it's a parallel around to show [TS]

  everyone but you don't know if they're [TS]

  gonna resolve that three-episode to be [TS]

  back to Monster of the Week but I mean [TS]

  all agree with this analogy tho friends [TS]

  txt files as the event is too lost [TS]

  I mean I was never an X file span so i [TS]

  can't speak to that you want i want the [TS]

  podcast I trust it is you just might [TS]

  guess it's over it [TS]

  I i I'll of the x-files although I I [TS]

  grew to hate it actually toward the end [TS]

  because I felt like they really [TS]

  squandered I I thought they were much [TS]

  better at the standalone episodes then [TS]

  the mythology and that the mythology [TS]

  murdered that show which is too bad [TS]

  because I like it already did eventually [TS]

  kill it but they had I think they had [TS]

  six good seasons of exiles mythology and [TS]

  or was that went off the rails i'd say [TS]

  about five-and-a-half more but but yeah [TS]

  but they're similar upside French [TS]

  trenches the x-files with the serial [TS]

  numbers filed off although i think that [TS]

  was a faint right i think that was they [TS]

  were trying to make you think it was [TS]

  just the x-files it was something a [TS]

  little different but yes it is the [TS]

  spiritual successor to the x-files but [TS]

  no I think determine it has a week your [TS]

  characters in The X Files exhales had to [TS]

  character who know where they stood [TS]

  changed over time writing those little [TS]

  people never helps with a cardboard [TS]

  cutout infringed it seems like everybody [TS]

  is kind of semi carpet like for example [TS]

  i do not buy the romance plot lines [TS]

  anywhere like completely but I i think [TS]

  that's a disaster i think they should [TS]

  never have made that mistake and I think [TS]

  they're one of the reasons they did it [TS]

  because they felt like they were [TS]

  switch the Olivia's they knew they were [TS]

  going to switch the Olivia's from the [TS]

  different universes and they wanted not [TS]

  work and they wanted to have that sort [TS]

  of like who he doesn't know who he's [TS]

  sleeping with kind of thing but it [TS]

  because they were much better as a [TS]

  brother and sister kind of yeah it's [TS]

  like watching brother and sister kiss [TS]

  when they're like my know it's crazy vs [TS]

  The X Files where you totally bought the [TS]

  tension between the two of them right [TS]

  and obviously stretched out too long and [TS]

  did the lying thing with in everything [TS]

  but still you bought my attention from [TS]

  episode number one right but i'm not i'm [TS]

  gonna i'm gonna say that that I think I [TS]

  like the French cast of characters [TS]

  better not necessarily first off i think [TS]

  that what we've seen with olivia is that [TS]

  she was put in the position of having to [TS]

  play the serious FBI agent for a while [TS]

  and her character was pretty boring and [TS]

  I feel like this season especially we've [TS]

  seen that the actress is quite capable [TS]

  of all because having her play two [TS]

  characters really does showed that she [TS]

  Ali you know she's got some talent and [TS]

  that it's just more a function s in some [TS]

  ways of that carrot write the character [TS]

  had a role to the angle to be the [TS]

  functionalist reading Olivia that [TS]

  monotone kind of way though and I think [TS]

  that was kind of like I don't know if [TS]

  they directed her to do that or that was [TS]

  her choice for the character but it's [TS]

  like jeez convinced this this person is [TS]

  pretty because she act well but she was [TS]

  feeling that our Olivia she does fine [TS]

  but then the old olivia is still boring [TS]

  i don't know others i think she's less [TS]

  boring than she was but i but i think [TS]

  the writers realized that she was [TS]

  fulfilling that Fox Mulder kind of role [TS]

  and she was supposed to be serious and [TS]

  skeptical and I think that's one of the [TS]

  reasons they added her sister and her [TS]

  sister's daughter was to try and give [TS]

  her more thing with your side give her [TS]

  more things to do [TS]

  she gets emotional distress and I don't [TS]

  think like Scully had emotional distress [TS]

  from her cancer and from like you know [TS]

  just worrying about if things are real [TS]

  or not an ipad or maybe chilling images [TS]

  a better actress but I just need more I [TS]

  been doing the same thing I think she is [TS]

  but I i think that that Olivia it you [TS]

  know is works a lot better but but my [TS]

  broader point was that now I'm i am [TS]

  going to call Joshua Jackson but really [TS]

  at home he's Pacey I think I think Pacey [TS]

  peter is I think that's a fun character [TS]

  I think he's really good and I think I i [TS]

  like that and john noble I think as [TS]

  walter johnson dr into without without [TS]

  Walter that show does not work i [TS]

  don't--there's practically a separate [TS]

  show like he is [TS]

  I i would put him at any jo-ann its [TS]

  second that he's just about Walter like [TS]

  bleep my Walter says I don't know Lance [TS]

  Reddick is doing his thing and and and [TS]

  you've got now i can't remember name and [TS]

  Royals Broyles is kind of wasted there [TS]

  especially after seeing him in the wire [TS]

  well doesn't it yeah he's doing the same [TS]

  thing right they don't give him anything [TS]

  to do [TS]

  no no he's he's he's he's I i like [TS]

  watching him when he's in it but he [TS]

  sorted doesn't have anything to do its [TS]

  trees the skin wire [TS]

  I mean he was so good in the wire right [TS]

  and we all know that I can although i [TS]

  don't know I i would compare him [TS]

  favorably with Skinner on The X Files [TS]

  well they're feeling the same role [TS]

  really come into the scene say something [TS]

  gruff and leave but right now it's [TS]

  finally found something to do with [TS]

  Skinner eventually they're always gonna [TS]

  be conflicted character and broil so far [TS]

  will the evil Broyles is not conflicted [TS]

  yeah they're all lieutenant Castillo [TS]

  from Miami Vice under the skin little [TS]

  James energy zone out there for you keep [TS]

  me informed others and Crockett keep me [TS]

  full it's nice that it's nice to have [TS]

  honey I think they've had a pretty good [TS]

  luck in guest stars and and and other [TS]

  you know sort of guest actors I mean [TS]

  leonard nimoy especially I thought I [TS]

  just really enjoyed learning one is my [TS]

  state were seen with him and maybe but [TS]

  the suit was john noble the second [TS]

  season him and john hope will have [TS]

  awesome chemist yet like the scenes [TS]

  weather in the parallel universe and [TS]

  they're kind of like talking and [TS]

  bickering I thought work to atty like [TS]

  quickly established the dynamic between [TS]

  these two characters who of course you [TS]

  know i always thought was funny that you [TS]

  know it lately have the same initials in [TS]

  are clearly sort of the two sides of the [TS]

  same coin character [TS]

  yeah yeah I i agree i I've been very [TS]

  happy with it though I was saying this [TS]

  to my wife after the we watch the second [TS]

  episode i think of the of the the season [TS]

  of fringe i said this show has gotten so [TS]

  much better and and you don't usually [TS]

  see a show I think go from being kinda [TS]

  you know watchable I can watch the whole [TS]

  first season I never really I was like [TS]

  yeah okay I it's kinda interesting just [TS]

  barely enough to keep it going and and [TS]

  then the second season I thought was [TS]

  better and this third season i have the [TS]

  last two episodes are the first two [TS]

  episodes of the season just I'm so [TS]

  impressed i love the fact that they can [TS]

  tell stories on both sides of the [TS]

  universe with the same actors more or [TS]

  less so you've got a couple playing [TS]

  different aspects of themselves with [TS]

  storylines that sort of intersect but [TS]

  don't know [TS]

  necessarily have to and I think that's [TS]

  great i hope that they keep that going [TS]

  for I watched an interview with some of [TS]

  the cast and and creative people [TS]

  sometime over the summer or something [TS]

  and they said you know basically their [TS]

  goal is to if they said something like [TS]

  if we can get you to care as much about [TS]

  the people in the alternate universe as [TS]

  you do about you know the people in the [TS]

  universe that we start with that is kind [TS]

  of what we're shooting like you know we [TS]

  want to get to the point where it's not [TS]

  just all these are the bad guys you know [TS]

  from the other universe we want to get [TS]

  to the point where it's like well we can [TS]

  kind of see the perspective solutely [TS]

  well I mean from their perspective right [TS]

  there universe had like a hole blown [TS]

  into it and and our characters that [TS]

  we've been told are our friends that we [TS]

  like to follow every week are at fault [TS]

  and so that you know they view this is [TS]

  being there you know they're striking [TS]

  back against against the suppressor now [TS]

  their their their their actions are [TS]

  sometimes questionable but I think [TS]

  that's an interesting point about at [TS]

  what point do you you know what's [TS]

  justified as a reaction to something [TS]

  that has blown up buildings and killed [TS]

  lots of people i mean it are they [TS]

  justified is is the alternate Olivia who [TS]

  you can call fo Olivia or Bolivia or [TS]

  whatever else you want to call her you [TS]

  know she she takes that guy and she [TS]

  kills him because he she's got erase all [TS]

  the all the you know information about [TS]

  who's getting that box in the second [TS]

  episode right well that's you know [TS]

  cold-blooded murder to shut somebody up [TS]

  and of course [TS]

  presumably the alternate is just done [TS]

  some horrible things on his side and [TS]

  send all these people over to our side [TS]

  and yet the justification is that not [TS]

  only does he have this personal vendetta [TS]

  which is that his son was stolen but [TS]

  that they stuff is like blown up and [TS]

  people have been killed so I think it's [TS]

  fascinating to think that maybe our guys [TS]

  are universe more or less is the is the [TS]

  villain in this from their space also [TS]

  making a doomsday machine and it's kinda [TS]

  hard to paper over that one [TS]

  oh yeah no he's the best guy you're [TS]

  right hardware told it's a doomsday [TS]

  machine [TS]

  well whatever it is he's clearly they're [TS]

  clearly painting him as evil is gonna be [TS]

  tough to redeem a million i don't think [TS]

  it'll be ready next year and even ground [TS]

  with those to Olivia's because they act [TS]

  in ways that are understandable and the [TS]

  rest of the French team I think too but [TS]

  not what not the alternate know he's bad [TS]

  in fact it wouldn't surprise me and we [TS]

  find out that all these terrible things [TS]

  that happened in [TS]

  the alternate universe are the result of [TS]

  alternate trying to get his son back and [TS]

  not because of the original breach but [TS]

  we'll see [TS]

  it's interesting I mean I i kinda hope [TS]

  that you know it reminds me it is sort [TS]

  of the beginning of this third season [TS]

  reminds me of one of my favorite parts [TS]

  from sci-fi television in recent years [TS]

  on a show that otherwise kind of went [TS]

  off the rails which is the third season [TS]

  occupation Arctic battlestar galactica [TS]

  right is a fantastic art but I see it [TS]

  John's point about the will they stick [TS]

  with this plotline or will they go back [TS]

  to sort of the formulaic [TS]

  monster-of-the-week I mean battlestar [TS]

  galactica 20 out on a limb and tried to [TS]

  totally sort of reinvent itself and had [TS]

  did a fantastic bit of work in creating [TS]

  of you know a great sort of parable [TS]

  basically for are you know but the war [TS]

  in iraq essentially at that point and [TS]

  then basically solved the entire problem [TS]

  in like six episodes like right back to [TS]

  the spaceship [TS]

  let's do this and that for me is where [TS]

  that show right totally lost the [TS]

  difference here is that what they've set [TS]

  up with the parallel universes is their [TS]

  premise twice instead of what battlestar [TS]

  galactica was which was a totally [TS]

  different show and I did love it and I [TS]

  thought it was really interesting that [TS]

  they did it but this is a little bit [TS]

  more comfortable i think of a resting [TS]

  place to have sort of yeah I think you [TS]

  can experience a solid argument to that [TS]

  idea that it's a Trojan horse right like [TS]

  this is you know that they started out [TS]

  with the monster of the week stuff to [TS]

  build it into a mythology show and I'm [TS]

  glad they're actually doing that it you [TS]

  know I i think this is why I stick with [TS]

  so many shows as long as I do because I [TS]

  keep thinking well okay there's some you [TS]

  know there are kids that there's more [TS]

  going on here that there's interesting [TS]

  stories to be told here but we just have [TS]

  to wait to till the show's establish [TS]

  enough because it's hard to like delve [TS]

  right into a mythology show right you [TS]

  know unless you're the adventurous music [TS]

  go for it but planes will respect that I [TS]

  gotta respect fringe for that first [TS]

  season because i was on the edge of not [TS]

  what are just being totally disgusted [TS]

  with it until that final thing and it's [TS]

  like you know the plan that right so [TS]

  it's not like they just thought of it at [TS]

  the end of the thing like they spend it [TS]

  on oir sees an entire season of a show [TS]

  building up to essentially their promise [TS]

  they didn't give you the premise until [TS]

  the end of the first season and and they [TS]

  hit you with the big hammer of like not [TS]

  only do we have a really awesome premise [TS]

  but here we have this horrible horrible [TS]

  event of like stealing your soul [TS]

  and for another place in the main [TS]

  character been with isn't even from this [TS]

  universe and stuff like that and he [TS]

  feels terrible bad it's not played for [TS]

  laughs it's serious like that was a big [TS]

  payoff after it like a long lead up it's [TS]

  like and I think they did they did drop [TS]

  just enough like every time they didn't [TS]

  tell you a little story observers and [TS]

  stuff in it like I was for me that's why [TS]

  i kept watch yes but it there's [TS]

  something interesting still could have [TS]

  been lame is still coming like yes a lot [TS]

  pattern observers ball guys whatever you [TS]

  like you didn't care until the character [TS]

  on the game until you realize his son [TS]

  died and he stole his son is not like [TS]

  he's sitting him sitting by the grave [TS]

  that's the best thing in the entire [TS]

  frizzy and like that just like nails you [TS]

  right it's not in the first season was [TS]

  not miss yet this is the first season [TS]

  Allen calling upset to Peter's greywacke [TS]

  I mean they dropped it pretty heavy [TS]

  before that like there are definitely a [TS]

  one-out they like her season firm that [TS]

  they seal the deal here yeah and the [TS]

  best thing was seeing Walter this [TS]

  character who is either crazy or zany [TS]

  just totally break down this it's a wait [TS]

  wait you're not used to seeing a [TS]

  character that you've come to care about [TS]

  and realizing that that he kind of [TS]

  deserves a lot of the insanity that you [TS]

  got maybe you know I mean like that was [TS]

  a big payoff when X Files used to do was [TS]

  do the ark episodes at the end of the [TS]

  season and the beginning of the next and [TS]

  they would just do for bookends 22 [TS]

  episodes in two episodes then back to [TS]

  Monster the weekend that the theory or [TS]

  everything thats the Star Trek next [TS]

  generation bright red kimono so I was [TS]

  just saying it's interesting because [TS]

  I've seen I've seen one of the monster [TS]

  of the week episodes of fringe and then [TS]

  it's very first season I haven't seen [TS]

  anything else and now you guys talking [TS]

  about it just made me kind of curious to [TS]

  go back and never come out [TS]

  yeah and now I'm everything started [TS]

  their season guys are with the second [TS]

  season is there no you I think you have [TS]

  to i don't know i'm a complete I'm a [TS]

  completionist usually i would say start [TS]

  at the beginning angle yeah because it [TS]

  you know why is going to be some paper [TS]

  all right they're easy to digest to like [TS]

  it's another thing where ya the monster [TS]

  of the week episode you know what's [TS]

  gonna like that they go by the numbers [TS]

  like this is a strange thing that [TS]

  happens like just like long are they [TS]

  find a dead body in the beginning [TS]

  somebody's head to the same interaction [TS]

  like every comment about halfway through [TS]

  the first season is one of my friends [TS]

  who who watches the show maybe tweet [TS]

  about something like so i guess i should [TS]

  stop getting attached to all these [TS]

  characters IC infringed before the [TS]

  before this happened yeah and with the [TS]

  way my wife put that is don't they watch [TS]

  the show [TS]

  don't they don't go in there don't they [TS]

  know that they're on fringe [TS]

  they're gonna die if [TS]

  they go in there if you if the only [TS]

  watch the show they would know [TS]

  well we've got a little bit more time [TS]

  o.o before he goes up and watch by the [TS]

  way alternate universe in fridge has [TS]

  this one it's allowing Zeppelin's that's [TS]

  how you know three years of that left 12 [TS]

  probably Cybermen in there too [TS]

  probably because alternate universes [TS]

  with Zeppelin's there's actually another [TS]

  good show at least I i am not a badass [TS]

  battlestar galactica watcher and I have [TS]

  to preface it with that and I've never [TS]

  seen either battlestar galactica which [TS]

  may make me a horrible syfy without [TS]

  original and really awesome we have [TS]

  anything on x-files watcher and a non [TS]

  new battlestar galactica watch her on [TS]

  the syfy television now it is shining [TS]

  it's really scary time we take all kinds [TS]

  here John [TS]

  we're a big family by Errol I'm gonna [TS]

  come on the comics com podcast and we [TS]

  have no standards but in any case i [TS]

  started watching caprica when it [TS]

  premiered in January which is I guess [TS]

  watching out [TS]

  yeah sorry i fell asleep there when you [TS]

  mention Caprica [TS]

  ah that's terrible no I mean I i watched [TS]

  it but I do I knew it was a prequel go [TS]

  ahead and I'll go ahead no no no I mean [TS]

  I I knew it was a prequel to battlestar [TS]

  galactica but i had no idea what they [TS]

  were two other than I know there are [TS]

  things called silence and that's all I [TS]

  knew going into this and actually first [TS]

  couple episodes of caprica are slow they [TS]

  are very very slow but at the same time [TS]

  oddly intriguing i mean it's very it's a [TS]

  very political show its its political [TS]

  sci fi and it's about robots and then [TS]

  the creation of robots and I Jason's [TS]

  looking like no no ID but hell no I i [TS]

  watched the first 45 episode yeah and I [TS]

  i found it kind of fascinating [TS]

  intellectually and yet the fairies just [TS]

  very slow-paced and you know i'm not [TS]

  asking for planes to go through [TS]

  wormholes in the end of the first [TS]

  episode I just I I wasn't quite sure [TS]

  where they were going or or what they [TS]

  were doing and I'm not sure they didn't [TS]

  either and they are so many different [TS]

  moving pieces I i will say i think them [TS]

  coming back to it which is is this is [TS]

  episode 10 but theoretically it's [TS]

  supposed to be the second the start of [TS]

  the second season or seasonally now I've [TS]

  yeah exactly yeah they've named it but I [TS]

  mean it was very very slow i watched [TS]

  maybe the first six or seven episodes in [TS]

  one chunk when I was sick one [TS]

  like one point but at the side say at [TS]

  episode like eight or nine it starts to [TS]

  pick up and you start kind of getting [TS]

  all of these plots kind of intertwining [TS]

  and now like with the opening of the set [TS]

  this the entire the entire show is [TS]

  really based around the concept of you [TS]

  know what if we can bring sort of the [TS]

  soul of a person into the digital world [TS]

  and work with that like what if that can [TS]

  be a pseudo afterlife and there's a [TS]

  whole like religious aspect and the [TS]

  religious aspect is starting to take out [TS]

  more of more of a main focus in this [TS]

  second half of the season I don't know [TS]

  it really piqued my curiosity and it's [TS]

  not necessarily my favorite sci-fi show [TS]

  on television because they're still it [TS]

  has problems but I definitely like I i [TS]

  have it on my list and i'm watching it [TS]

  regularly and I'm i'm intrigued to see [TS]

  where we'll go assuming it lasts longer [TS]

  than the season [TS]

  yeah I'm not sure I mean it's been on [TS]

  for a long time already i'm surprised [TS]

  that it wasn't canceled already have a [TS]

  bike shop is 20 episodes right they shot [TS]

  the 20 episodes and and I was going to [TS]

  say yeah that they didn't like a fringe [TS]

  went through an entire first season but [TS]

  paid off at the end and it seems like [TS]

  Africa came and went on break without [TS]

  paying off anything so I was like well [TS]

  that's it for that show i guess it's [TS]

  been cancelled i'll never see it again [TS]

  and they didn't even have time to pay [TS]

  off but now it's back so maybe at the [TS]

  end of the 20 it will still pay off on I [TS]

  I suspect so i think that the ratings [TS]

  have been so lackluster that they [TS]

  decided stretch out the time and then [TS]

  that would give them more time to decide [TS]

  that they want to bring it back I'd be [TS]

  surprised if it comes back just because [TS]

  it seems like it's not really catching [TS]

  on but you never know [TS]

  i I just couldn't why I mean I felt so [TS]

  so angry and badly burned by the end by [TS]

  the last season about hot glass like I [TS]

  just I'm just gonna yeah I'm just yeah [TS]

  i'm just depressed super angry and sad [TS]

  there's a whole podcast would be done [TS]

  about that I don't hold grudges though [TS]

  because i like that the first few [TS]

  seasons about our collective I like [TS]

  install fond memories of the program [TS]

  together just because they screwed up at [TS]

  the end doesn't make me I I the more I [TS]

  looked it's one of those shows that I [TS]

  looked back and it really ruined a lot [TS]

  of the earlier episodes there are [TS]

  romantic episodes and just pretend those [TS]

  are really don't exist [TS]

  no but even the second season there are [TS]

  still some terrible terrible episode [TS]

  well everybody's I wanted two bad ones [TS]

  it's like the Star Wars prequels just [TS]

  pretending [TS]

  Kristen you have a much happier life hey [TS]

  I heard the other day that run more [TS]

  maybe rebooting wild wild west so I'm [TS]

  willing to give that a shot because I do [TS]

  like Ron Moore and if you're watching a [TS]

  good Ron Moore Show albeit one that also [TS]

  doesn't have an ending curveball and [TS]

  yeah I intentionally didn't start that [TS]

  because i heard that it died before it [TS]

  ended well speaking of of shows that uh [TS]

  that I think are are encouraging yeah [TS]

  I'm gonna throw out stargate universe [TS]

  which I'm so woefully behind on now i'm [TS]

  like 10 episodes behind on it but the [TS]

  it's I think it actually gets hampered [TS]

  by the fact that it's a Stargate show [TS]

  because it's so unlike it really is like [TS]

  the weird stepchild or offspring I guess [TS]

  of Battlestar Galactica and stargate [TS]

  because it's much darker Stargate was [TS]

  this bright and shiny first five seasons [TS]

  of stargate i love because they're just [TS]

  they're from they're happy friendly go [TS]

  through this and explore new worlds kind [TS]

  of stuff and then they kind of [TS]

  disappeared up there anything I Anderson [TS]

  that's all we have made anderson i love [TS]

  ya those first five years and then he [TS]

  kind of like goes in the background in [TS]

  their government conspiracies and became [TS]

  the x-files and it was a disaster so [TS]

  this this new show is saddled with that [TS]

  history and yet I thought was pretty [TS]

  good in trying to be different in that [TS]

  the pilot doesn't end up with a sort of [TS]

  reset where everybody's happy and ready [TS]

  to go on adventures that the problems [TS]

  put out the pilot take you know episode [TS]

  after episode i think they finish the [TS]

  pilot not having air or water or food [TS]

  and then the first episode they've got [TS]

  to try to find a way to get air and the [TS]

  next one is trying to find a way to get [TS]

  water and try to get food and a little [TS]

  circle and yeah well in in in and uh I'm [TS]

  embracing unlikable characters the lead [TS]

  character and stargate universe is [TS]

  robert carlyle character and he's a DJ [TS]

  jerk so I i think that show is [TS]

  interesting although some for some [TS]

  reason not gripping enough for me to [TS]

  actually have kept current with it to [TS]

  the point where I'm like a half a dozen [TS]

  episodes behind now and I like Johnson [TS]

  is john scalzi is the is the the science [TS]

  consultant fight through it [TS]

  well your story story controlling yeah [TS]

  and I can sort of feel that too because [TS]

  it's its outsized it's not you know kind [TS]

  of hard sci-fi realism but there's some [TS]

  some character realism and there's some [TS]

  resistance to sort of the standard kind [TS]

  sci-fi show plot device where you hit [TS]

  the big reset button at the end of every [TS]

  episode where you get the sense that [TS]

  this is kind of a meandering story and [TS]

  there's characters who aren't like a [TS]

  ball and ones who are and they're [TS]

  changing over time and you know I it's [TS]

  not a anything I'd say it's like a [TS]

  grade-a kind of show but I I'm [TS]

  encouraged by because it I I fully [TS]

  expected to hate the pilot and i ended [TS]

  up watching whatever eight or ten [TS]

  episodes of it and not not feeling bad [TS]

  about it because I thought that was kind [TS]

  of drinking you know it's interesting [TS]

  because I think that's what it really [TS]

  comes down to is not so much that we all [TS]

  necessarily get invested in genre shows [TS]

  so much as I think I'll you know for the [TS]

  most part I think the people who like [TS]

  sonra chose a tend to cross over pretty [TS]

  well with people who like shows that [TS]

  have those non resetting plots that have [TS]

  a longer build that have characters that [TS]

  develop and change over time I mean I [TS]

  wouldn't like that would make it more [TS]

  standard shows don't write and one of [TS]

  the things about genre shows is that [TS]

  because they are not setting a real [TS]

  universe there's like chance for things [TS]

  you haven't seen before that you know I [TS]

  don't need to see another cop show or [TS]

  another even space cops quite honestly [TS]

  or space lawyers but of you know i-i-i [TS]

  wanna see something they're not just [TS]

  that like that you can have a good cop [TS]

  shit like the wire for sure can have a [TS]

  good cop shortly [TS]

  that's about people develop over time [TS]

  about challenging questions that really [TS]

  you know tries to build something in [TS]

  rather than showing you all 45 minute [TS]

  movie every week shows you a like rich [TS]

  story you know series that builds over [TS]

  time that really uses TV as its medium [TS]

  and i think that's that's really what a [TS]

  lot of people you know I know we're sort [TS]

  of focused on geek stuff here but I [TS]

  think I like that idea of you know [TS]

  really good television being something [TS]

  that uses that this medium this serious [TS]

  cereal episodic stories helping to its [TS]

  fullest and like the wire is interesting [TS]

  because it is such a you know cop shell [TS]

  that's that's pretty well-trod [TS]

  convention there and by simply being [TS]

  more true to what real human beings are [TS]

  like it defies the genre conventions of [TS]

  the cop show right so sci-fi has you [TS]

  know even more conventions i find is [TS]

  this like a road convention for house is [TS]

  done and when you get a sci-fi show it [TS]

  can repel against the combined [TS]

  she's a regular TV it can also repel [TS]

  against the conventions of sci-fi and [TS]

  sometimes just the the sci-fi [TS]

  conventions repel against the [TS]

  conventions of regular TV so when you [TS]

  have something with people who are [TS]

  acting what you think like real people [TS]

  would act like and define multiple [TS]

  conventions at the same time it's just [TS]

  incredibly interesting and will enable I [TS]

  think that appeals to get the most they [TS]

  want to see something they haven't seen [TS]

  before and that's a great tool to do it [TS]

  sometimes the sci-fi conventions go [TS]

  right they leave the convention center [TS]

  and they attack the Renaissance Faire [TS]

  that's on the other side of the street [TS]

  to that's a lady's in 20 states as the [TS]

  heroes of futurama I it's it's it's time [TS]

  yeah alright uh I'm sorry sci-fi [TS]

  conventions like I i was picturing [TS]

  something else there for a second but i [TS]

  think you're right i and and i like that [TS]

  when I CSI show like I said with [TS]

  stargate universe thing please me the [TS]

  most was that they didn't take the easy [TS]

  way out with this predicament yeah I [TS]

  thought it would be Gilligan's Island [TS]

  right you know you you [TS]

  well we've got the shipwreck episode and [TS]

  then we will place them in a state where [TS]

  I know what you're trying to do there [TS]

  and then we place them in a state where [TS]

  it'll just be repeatable and we'll go [TS]

  that way forever and that's not what [TS]

  they did not like a hot this is [TS]

  interesting i will watch more of this [TS]

  now because it's absurd my my [TS]

  expectations of what otherwise it [TS]

  becomes lost in space or starting writer [TS]

  or manipulation thank you yes [TS]

  yeah exactly starter voice is a great [TS]

  example which I know this is going to be [TS]

  different and yet at the end of the [TS]

  episode everybody had their the end of [TS]

  the ship was fine and everybody had [TS]

  their clean uniforms and all the rebels [TS]

  had joined up with the crew and then it [TS]

  stayed like that essentially for the [TS]

  entire run of the show which and that's [TS]

  why i stopped watching very out exactly [TS]

  alright well I think we've done enough [TS]

  damage for one podcast i hope that we've [TS]

  given you some ideas of things that you [TS]

  could watch out there dear list or not [TS]

  we're not watch as the case may be I [TS]

  think we've done that done that here on [TS]

  the podcast to hopefully serenity will [TS]

  go and and watch some fringe now i'll [TS]

  add it to my ever-growing list of [TS]

  television that I need to catch up on [TS]

  all right that's fair enough that's fair [TS]

  enough those dvds are available for for [TS]

  many of these alright so that's it for [TS]

  now thanks to everybody out there for [TS]

  listening to the incomparable podcast on [TS]

  Jason snail and i would like to thank [TS]

  the [TS]

  my fellow members of the podcast ren [TS]

  serenity called well thank you very much [TS]

  hanky Jason dan more'n textures and John [TS]

  siracusa thank you again [TS]

  [Music] [TS]

  alright until next time thanks for [TS]

  listening goodbye law-and-order Atlantis [TS]

  coming this spring to NBC visit us at [TS]

  www.piofl.com [TS]

  [Music] [TS]