00:00:04 ◼ ► Jonas and I wanted to go see ready player one. He's into video games. We're into Spielberg movies
00:00:10 ◼ ► It looks like it's right up our alley. Our favorite theater is one that's outside the city
00:00:23 ◼ ► Somebody out there when we went to see the the last Jedi there said are you John Gruber?
00:00:29 ◼ ► he's a listener of the show. I forget your name, good fellow, but I remember meeting him and his,
00:00:35 ◼ ► I think, his girlfriend or wife. It's a really great theater. It's one that you get reserved
00:00:40 ◼ ► seats. They're all full recliners. They have a great concession stand. It's not like you'd
00:00:48 ◼ ► sit there and wait 10 minutes. It's like they actually want to serve you. They have a bar
00:00:52 ◼ ► that serves beer, so you can have a beer, watch a movie. I just love to go there. It's a very clean
00:01:03 ◼ ► Great projection systems, great sound systems, etc., etc. So anyway, we get there to the AMC
00:01:08 ◼ ► Woodhaven 10, and I've got my pre-bought tickets and our perfect seats all picked out from the day
00:01:14 ◼ ► before. And it was telling me, instead of putting it in my wallet, which is what I've done in
00:01:37 ◼ ► today." I'm looking at my email or the confirmation thing I have, and it says, "Two tickets
00:02:46 ◼ ► up disappointing. What are the odds? I mean, and you know what the problem is? Here's the
00:02:53 ◼ ► problem I made was I made a couple mistakes, obviously. But the problem was in the past,
00:02:59 ◼ ► what I've done is I've gone to I've used the Fandango app. You ever use this app? I searched
00:03:04 ◼ ► for a movie. And then from the movie, I searched for the theater. And I've told this app that
00:03:10 ◼ ► the AMC Woodhaven 10 is a favorite, but for whatever reason, it still sorts them by location.
00:03:45 ◼ ► I've yeah, I just realized I've got at least one device that's still set to Google as the default
00:03:56 ◼ ► Not not to denigrate your use of duck to go which I appreciate and understand what you do
00:04:12 ◼ ► access to your location. And obviously it would just do this on an Android device, on an iOS device, at least you get a warning. Like, "Hey, do you want to share your location?" And you're like, "No, I'm searching for food to bring my mistress. I'd rather not." And then hit dismiss. But you hit okay. And then of course, any search you would have done for Woodhaven Cinemas would have probably, most likely, turned up the nearest one.
00:04:36 ◼ ► I even said that to Jonas on the way. I was like, you know, I was reviewing the mistakes
00:04:50 ◼ ► but who would I that theater didn't do digital the one the one in Michigan must not have a
00:05:02 ◼ ► Only say that because one of my writers is in Michigan. I'm sure he'll hear this and love it
00:05:10 ◼ ► We wound up going to a later show that afternoon at another theater closer closer to home and and enjoyed the movie
00:05:18 ◼ ► Really enjoyed it. So you liked it. Oh, I enjoyed it. I really liked it. I liked it a lot and
00:05:23 ◼ ► Okay, did you see it sounds like something you would know? I haven't I haven't seen it yet
00:05:29 ◼ ► But I hated the book so much that I'm trying to like just work myself up to this place where?
00:05:41 ◼ ► to movie after bring myself and then I have to bring myself that read the book, huh? And
00:05:45 ◼ ► They're gonna have different experiences of it. Well, you know, I'm gonna have to bifurcate my logic about it if it helps
00:05:54 ◼ ► I've seen a lot of complaints that it's too different from the book and Jonas room read and very much liked the book and
00:06:03 ◼ ► It was an interesting it was a very interesting post movie conversation with him because he he liked the movie, too
00:06:13 ◼ ► I think with his disappointment that a book adaptation wasn't as faithful as he wanted it to have been
00:06:26 ◼ ► I won't go on and on about it those mixed feelings that many of us have had over the years many many times
00:06:30 ◼ ► you know, he's getting that first brush with that, like, "Oh, the book came alive in my head,
00:06:34 ◼ ► and I imagined all these things." And I hear, obviously, that some of the plot particulars,
00:06:47 ◼ ► blended down to be more, you know, quick and paced well and stuff. But the minutia is what books are
00:06:56 ◼ ► I don't think this is a spoiler. There's lots of stuff I could say about it that would be a terrible
00:07:00 ◼ ► spoiler and so I won't. But one of them is that there's a part of the book where our heroes have
00:07:15 ◼ ► Steven: Right. It's like nail on the head, prototypical movie stuff, right? Like when you go,
00:07:21 ◼ ► "Oh, why didn't you like the movie? Oh, well, it dumps things down." How? Well, instead of
00:08:08 ◼ ► on Verizon. But I also have a $50 a month prepaid T-Mobile account, which I use in like
00:08:15 ◼ ► whatever Android phones I'm tinkering with. Sometimes I'll stick that SIM into an iPhone.
00:08:21 ◼ ► I'm always spooked about getting it stuck to iMessage, but you know, it's just so I can have a second phone
00:08:29 ◼ ► I mean I got a text I don't but I don't check that all the time because I don't you know
00:08:37 ◼ ► Over the weekend. It turned out I had a text from last week from t-mobile saying that the credit card
00:08:48 ◼ ► And they need to log in and update it. So I could you know, put it on my list is crap to do on Monday
00:09:03 ◼ ► Right, and they've got these rules and the rules are you have to have at least one letter
00:09:09 ◼ ► You have to have at least one number you are not allowed to use spaces and it has to be between eight and fifty characters
00:10:15 ◼ ► have this problem is T-Mobile's website down, but they won't let me do anything else with
00:10:19 ◼ ► my account until I set a new password. Like I can't skip this and go to billing. I'm telling
00:10:25 ◼ ► you, I spent half an hour on this and I figured out eventually that they also don't allow
00:12:20 ◼ ► 150 megabytes. This flash game in the doodle really bones you on that one. But they create
00:12:35 ◼ ► with your existing one and then like as you said, your password is expired, you haven't
00:12:39 ◼ ► logged in forever because I have the same thing. I have a prepaid that I bounce around,
00:12:52 ◼ ► rid of that iPad. It was either an Apple demo or one that I sold or whatever. And so you
00:12:57 ◼ ► have a bunch of vestigial T-Mobile accounts hanging out. I don't know why it's T-Mobile.
00:13:01 ◼ ► I don't know if I'd have the same problem on other networks, but I already have accounts
00:13:26 ◼ ► That happened this past week? Forgive me, I'm trying to hang out less and less on Twitter,
00:13:36 ◼ ► there's some follow-up that's happened in the last day or so, a couple of days, I don't
00:13:39 ◼ ► there was basically a chain last week that was started because somebody said something about
00:13:45 ◼ ► their password to T-Mobile and they said, "Hey, I was on the phone with your agent and they asked
00:13:52 ◼ ► me for my password and were able to verify it." And obviously, as you know, most modern companies
00:13:58 ◼ ► don't even ask you for your password over the phone. Even if you call them or whatever, they'll
00:14:04 ◼ ► ask for other verification components like maybe social, which is ironic, or other things,
00:14:19 ◼ ► that was his password. And so at some point, the password was like in plain text, you know,
00:14:25 ◼ ► where they could see it, they could not hash, not encrypted in any way where an agent couldn't
00:14:30 ◼ ► just look up your password. But that's too many people to be able to look up your password,
00:15:34 ◼ ► of the password they could see. Can they only see the last four digits? Is that really secure?
00:15:38 ◼ ► Is that a thing anybody should be doing? And then, of course, the dialogue then went right
00:15:53 ◼ ► uh hey i should mention uh before i forget because i keep forgetting every week uh there is going to
00:15:58 ◼ ► be a live episode of the talk show at wwdc uh it will be on tuesday whatever day june that is
00:16:06 ◼ ► uh at the california theater once again uh top top people are working on this right now
00:16:13 ◼ ► uh i literally top men tickets are not yet available uh but they will be soon and i'm i
00:16:23 ◼ ► know it's sold out very quickly uh the last few years and that's very exciting uh and in a way
00:16:30 ◼ ► makes me proud but it also makes me very sad because i realized that there are a lot of more
00:16:34 ◼ ► people who would like to be in attendance than who will be able to be in attendance and i'm
00:16:39 ◼ ► We're trying to figure out the best, fairest possible way to make it so sorry. But I have
00:16:47 ◼ ► no information to announce yet. And I guess, see, and here's the problem. Here's what I'm
00:16:54 ◼ ► kind of stammering around is people know that. And what people want to know is they don't want
00:16:59 ◼ ► to know how to get tickets. They want to know where to go to find out when I'm going to announce
00:17:06 ◼ ► how to get tickets. Like what is the thing that they should be reloading constantly all day every
00:17:12 ◼ ► day? Yeah, exactly. What should they have a monitor on? Right. And the one year I did it by
00:17:17 ◼ ► announcing it in the middle of a regular show. And I thought, well, that'd be fun. It would make
00:17:23 ◼ ► people listen to the show. But I think that was a bad idea. I don't think I thought that through
00:17:28 ◼ ► all the way because I think it made, you know, people started like, you know, they weren't really
00:17:31 ◼ ► listening to the show. They were like dancing, you know, quick download the show and like skip
00:17:36 ◼ ► 15 seconds until you get to the part. And so I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm very
00:17:42 ◼ ► sorry about that. But we will try to live stream it. And I think last year's live stream was pretty
00:17:47 ◼ ► successful. So hopefully our experience, you know, with a year of experience under our belt, we'll do
00:17:52 ◼ ► even better this year for those who can't attend. And yeah, I mean, the show was great last year.
00:17:57 ◼ ► Good venue too. That was a fantastic. I like that venue. The loading was a little bit tight in there,
00:18:02 ◼ ► but after that I think everybody had a really good time. Yeah, I have to figure out how to do that too.
00:18:06 ◼ ► It seemed like because it's general admission and like if there was a problem with last year's show,
00:18:15 ◼ ► we let people into the lobby and then we didn't have the theater doors open and it might have
00:18:21 ◼ ► been like a soccer riot or something. So I don't know. I don't know how to deal with that. Yeah,
00:21:46 ◼ ► was right. I don't know if it's going to be at the same spot this year, but it was right
00:21:49 ◼ ► across the street from the conference center last year, which must have been convenient
00:21:58 ◼ ► is happening and it's going to be in San Jose. Last I spoke to Jesse charred, I don't think
00:22:04 ◼ ► they have the venue nailed down. Like I think it's in the you know, possibly at the same
00:22:08 ◼ ► venue, possibly somewhere else. I don't know. But it's it's a great conference too. Yeah.
00:22:14 ◼ ► Why don't we start by taking a break? I'll thank our first sponsor. The wonderful, wonderful
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00:23:03 ◼ ► to the United States. You couldn't get Tres Pontas coffee from this raised plantation until now.
00:23:09 ◼ ► It's really, really fresh. It's good coffee, but the big difference between a lot of places where
00:23:16 ◼ ► you can get gourmet coffee is a lot of times you buy it and it's a few weeks old already.
00:23:22 ◼ ► It makes a difference. Coffee, even after it's been roasted, is a produce. It goes bad.
00:23:28 ◼ ► may not go like rotten, but it just loses some of the freshness. It really does make a difference.
00:23:34 ◼ ► So when you order Tres Pontas coffee, it's not sitting in a warehouse somewhere and then they
00:23:42 ◼ ► go grab your order and send it to you. You place your order and then they roast some beans and
00:23:48 ◼ ► stick them in a bag and you get the next batch that goes out. So it's super, super fresh. And
00:23:53 ◼ ► it comes with a date stamp on it. When you cut rives at your house, you'll see just how fresh
00:24:01 ◼ ► days before three or four days. Just crazy, crazy fresh coffee. And there's two ways to
00:24:08 ◼ ► buy it. You can go to their website, trace Pontas, T-R-E-S-P-O-N-T-A-S coffee or no trace
00:24:15 ◼ ► Pontas.com/coffee. And I'm telling you, it'd be roasted fresh for you shipped out immediately.
00:24:21 ◼ ► And you don't have to choose between varieties. What you choose between with them is the roast.
00:24:26 ◼ ► roast, light, medium, dark, and French roast. Really, really easy. They have one type of
00:24:32 ◼ ► coffee and they roast it to different degrees based on your taste. But the other way to
00:24:41 ◼ ► you see. And the stuff from Amazon, they're just using Amazon as a front end. They still
00:24:50 ◼ ► people. It's not sitting in an Amazon warehouse. Just an easier way for you to shop if you're
00:24:54 ◼ ► already an Amazon customer. And all orders in the US. I'm sorry for those of you outside
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00:25:50 ◼ ► My thanks to Trace Pontas. Go check him out on Amazon or at tracepontas.com/coffee. You
00:26:11 ◼ ► It's not a look. I mean, you spent a couple hours at Apple, right? Talking to their product
00:26:36 ◼ ► room for a bit with four people from Apple's, which I didn't know at the time, but learned as I was there from their pro workflow group. The pro workflow group is a new group that they've created inside and literally lives in the building, where a lot of their pro products are being sort of designed and built.
00:27:06 ◼ ► And that group is responsible for evaluating professional workflows to figure out ways where Apple hardware or software or a combination thereof is sort of not doing what it should or not being as efficient or as effective or whatever as possible.
00:27:25 ◼ ► And so the four people from the group were all basically either hardware or software or oversight or marketing from that group that kind of looked over, oversaw different projects to do with their pro group.
00:28:10 ◼ ► did you know it was going to be Mac Mac related? I mean, how much did you know in advance?
00:28:14 ◼ ► Jay Haynes Yeah, I mean, I didn't know a ton in advance, besides the fact that yes, it would essentially be some sort of follow on to the year ago roundtable, right? Which you were at, where they basically said, Hey, the Mac Pro is not going to work, you know, out as we knew. Yeah, exactly. At that point. And so we need to restart our thinking on this and kind of start this project over.
00:28:40 ◼ ► So, I knew it was going to be a retrospective on that. So, obviously, you know, at that
00:29:10 ◼ ► like a few minutes to or or sometime hopefully that's it's to think about what good questions
00:29:20 ◼ ► of them it is can ask the same question everybody it is standard Apple PR technique not to tell
00:29:35 ◼ ► in with, you know, hopefully with your thinking cap on and take the opportunity of the time to
00:29:41 ◼ ► do two things. One is, you know, get at the truth of what they're saying and get at the, you know,
00:29:46 ◼ ► sort of, you know, read their angle and then interpret it in your own way, hopefully. But then
00:29:51 ◼ ► also, theoretically, you're there to act as an advocate and an avatar for the audience, right?
00:29:56 ◼ ► Like, that's your job. And you're not there to be like, you know, "Oh, what is, you know, what is
00:30:02 ◼ ► Matthew want to know about this, although I do take my time to do that, you know, um, in these
00:30:06 ◼ ► interviews, like I'll ask a question. It's like, nobody on earth probably cares about this, but I
00:30:10 ◼ ► really do care about this. You know, I find this interesting. I would like to know the answer to
00:30:14 ◼ ► this, but then the, a large majority of the time you want to dedicate to, Hey, if, you know,
00:30:20 ◼ ► in this case, all these pro users were here, you know, what questions would they ask? What would
00:30:24 ◼ ► they want to know about? And you can ask the questions and you won't always get answers,
00:30:30 ◼ ► or the answers you get won't always be, you know, as revealing or satisfactory as you want,
00:30:35 ◼ ► almost never simply because of the way Apple works. And that's fine. But I have, you know,
00:30:39 ◼ ► you ask them, right? You try not to be an idiot and ask intelligent questions, but also don't,
00:30:46 ◼ ► you don't shy away from them. Even if you know that the answers may not be super satisfactory,
00:31:11 ◼ ► I'm curious what they were thinking. I like I've told you, we talked about this offline
00:31:17 ◼ ► for quite a while. Yeah. But I think I think you were a fantastic choice. And if there had to be
00:31:23 ◼ ► be only one person to get it. I mean it sincerely. I would rather it be you than me because I wouldn't
00:31:30 ◼ ► want to be responsible for reporting everything that went on because I'm just not good at it.
00:31:43 ◼ ► You're like, "I want to absorb it and then kind of spirit." I think that's your talent.
00:31:54 ◼ ► Yes is very interesting right and I don't know how you got that story out from an all-day at Tuesday
00:32:01 ◼ ► Briefings with Apple to 8 a.m. Pacific Thursday, you know a very comprehensive story is out
00:32:09 ◼ ► Like I know I would have had like three paragraphs written. I'd I would still be like looking
00:32:17 ◼ ► I'm ashamed to admit at launch but you know, what can you do? I only had one person's name misspelled
00:32:26 ◼ ► But you know it it is rough sometimes with that but you know, you just kind of suck it up and do it
00:32:43 ◼ ► I don't actually mean I'm not gonna say that but like I said my ceiling time from my other duties
00:32:47 ◼ ► I was going to say real job, but that's not true. They're both my real job. But I do run a site,
00:32:55 ◼ ► they're working on their own important stories about a variety of other things. So it's a balance.
00:32:59 ◼ ► I always have to always find myself stealing time from that. And then I was going to Pixar the next
00:33:03 ◼ ► day. So I was like, you know, I'll just write this now at midnight. Well, speaking of Pixar,
00:36:07 ◼ ► it's clear in hindsight that they were kind of setting this up for that my bottom line is that I
00:36:13 ◼ ► think what they were trying to say is that we're shooting for late 2018 but you know it could be
00:36:19 ◼ ► 2019 so we're not going to say anything other than not this year. Right and you know my and I did go
00:36:26 ◼ ► back and look and the the phrasing was definitely clear or not I shouldn't say clear but it was
00:36:32 ◼ ► definitely not clear that it was 2018, right? If that makes sense. And then I believe I asked for
00:36:38 ◼ ► confirmation. And basically it was like, you know, hey, exactly what was said. And when you
00:36:45 ◼ ► read what was said, it said, it's not a product for this year. That's basically what they said.
00:36:59 ◼ ► it may have been a 2018 product, but it also they weren't promising that. And clearly, obviously,
00:37:05 ◼ ► it's not. They said 2019. Now, the trashcan Mac Pro is obviously, you know, it's how much do you
00:37:13 ◼ ► think that they that they hate that in the product design group, they must love that it's called the
00:37:19 ◼ ► trashcan macro. I mean, it must be excited. I'm sorry, go. Well, it's Yes, the trash came back.
00:37:24 ◼ ► It's clearly heading towards the trash can of history. The jet turbine super polished awesome
00:37:29 ◼ ► mech pro. No, go ahead. In addition to its striking looks, it was in architecture, it was a very
00:37:48 ◼ ► or whoever else makes them. And it wasn't like any Mac previously made, you know, maybe
00:37:54 ◼ ► in spirit closest to the cube, you know, just in terms of density and being like an artifact
00:38:00 ◼ ► that you would really that you want on your desk. I mean, they even said this at the introduction
00:38:06 ◼ ► of it, that it's, this is something you're going to want on your desk. You're not going
00:38:10 ◼ ► Yeah, it turns out I want it on my desk. It's just, right. But it turns out, I can do anything
00:38:16 ◼ ► You know, the, you know, I, it's simplistic to reduce it to just one thing. But basically,
00:38:25 ◼ ► they overlooked the, at the time they designed it, they overlooked the growing importance
00:38:29 ◼ ► of GPUs to pro computing. And that just was a Mac, you know, there were just so many GPU
00:38:36 ◼ ► problems with people who have these Mac pros, and they couldn't keep up with the state of
00:38:46 ◼ ► this very specific amount of GPU heat output and that's it. And so they more or less told
00:39:18 ◼ ► a modular design. But unsurprising, you know, it's given as it was, you know, extraordinary
00:39:28 ◼ ► less admitted to a major mistake on a product that sells to very few people, but it is extraordinarily
00:39:45 ◼ ► going to, you know, more or less go back to the philosophy of the cheese grater MacPros
00:39:52 ◼ ► and we'll just make a big aluminum box and we'll just put the most powerful Intel Xeons
00:40:30 ◼ ► I did laugh like they're obviously angry but I appreciated the joke is that they said that they could literally just put it into
00:40:40 ◼ ► Boxes that they still have lying around and I would be perfectly happy, you know go back to the old Bondi blue
00:40:46 ◼ ► Right our magic three boxes and just as long as you stuff it to the gills with you know, powerful workstation stuff
00:40:59 ◼ ► You know, and I think if what they announced next year is just a big big PC workstation box
00:41:16 ◼ ► I just get the feeling that they've got something else in mind that no they are not, you know
00:41:22 ◼ ► They are definitely going in a very different direction from the trash can but that they still have a very ambitious
00:41:39 ◼ ► Steven: Yeah, like not an officially licensed Tackintosh, so to speak, of just kind of generic
00:41:53 ◼ ► they want to maybe be able to add one more and then replace it when a new one comes out.
00:42:23 ◼ ► being able to replace that GPU and get an upgraded gaming experience for me has always led me to,
00:42:29 ◼ ► you know, keep a PC around and say, Hey, if I want to play destiny at 60 frames per second,
00:42:35 ◼ ► you know, with all of the water droplets and all of the cool stuff turned on, I can do that.
00:42:40 ◼ ► And the fact is that I don't, I don't see that as the way that Apple is thinking about their
00:43:19 ◼ ► is this still stand in other words? Have you have you changed fundamentally your thought process on
00:43:26 ◼ ► the Mac Pro since we last talked? And the basic gist is, no, we haven't changed the fundamental
00:43:31 ◼ ► architecture of what we wanted to build since we last talked. Now, of course, I don't know how much
00:43:36 ◼ ► of it they had done then. But you know, the the arc of it seems to be continuing on whatever
00:43:42 ◼ ► trajectory they had set a year ago. But they said that modularity was absolutely a core part of it,
00:43:50 ◼ ► whatever it is. I just don't know if the idea of modular that Apple has in mind is going to be the
00:43:57 ◼ ► same modular that, you know, your average pro who wants a cheese grater with multiple slots has in
00:44:18 ◼ ► them off the record or on background or something like that. I will say on the whole iMac Pro
00:44:41 ◼ ► what we wrote about from the roundtable last year, that they have just had a pro-minded
00:44:52 ◼ ► They did say last year it would be later this year and that they think it's going to be
00:45:27 ◼ ► My guess is that they decided that the trash can was a mistake a while before the round table,
00:45:38 ◼ ► maybe even a year. I mean, because they knew how many hundreds of years that they'd gone without
00:45:44 ◼ ► even like a speed bump. I mean, I'm sure that they were embarrassed by that. They certainly didn't
00:45:50 ◼ ► let on that they were embarrassed last year. I mean, they're Apple, they're pros. But they knew,
00:45:56 ◼ ► I mean, so they must have thought, here's what I think happened is that, you know, obviously
00:46:01 ◼ ► when they launched the trashcan, they certainly didn't anticipate that they were never going
00:46:11 ◼ ► And then it turned out that they made a very strong editorial bet on the way compute was
00:48:54 ◼ ► I don't know. What do you think about that with the timing? I'm pretty sure that that's the timing,
00:49:09 ◼ ► that you think that this basically, this project started in earnest. You think it started
00:49:40 ◼ ► I can't actually tell you in this case, like, you know, it's not like I couldn't tell you if I if I knew right back I don't know, you know, they didn't they didn't tell me they're not very keen on going Oh, well, we started this project this date and edited on that one. I mean, I I one one person that I can't remember who it is, I'm not gonna say the name. So like, I'm afraid to say the name, but one one person one Apple exec said during the iPhone 10 roundtables they had they didn't on the record one with a bunch of
00:50:38 ◼ ► more about not giving away competitive information like, Hey, if we lock this, Apple was able to lock
00:50:43 ◼ ► this in November, and ship it in December of the next year, whatever, you know, that, that or
00:50:50 ◼ ► September the next year, that information is maybe mean nothing to the average person, to be honest,
00:50:55 ◼ ► like, even if you were a reporter, and you found it out and put it in the story, the average person
00:51:00 ◼ ► may not know or care, you know, who cares, right? It's like, okay, great, you know, it took him
00:51:05 ◼ ► like nine months to build this thing. All right. But for another manufacturer or for an analyst,
00:51:11 ◼ ► this is incredibly valuable information that they can reverse engineer essentially into a lot of
00:51:21 ◼ ► advantages, either in purchasing or manufacturing. So that said, there was none of that slippage
00:51:28 ◼ ► here. Like they didn't say, "Oh, we started the project in X and, you know, we're gonna ship in
00:51:32 ◼ ► in 2019, none of that. So my conjecture basically is the same as yours, also based on just my
00:51:47 ◼ ► the Antennagate press conference. That must have been 2010, right? Because 2007 was the
00:52:16 ◼ ► I told you this before, but when we took that tour of their audio facilities for the HomePod
00:52:31 ◼ ► it was guided by their head and tenant engineer. Really interesting, really cool stuff, but
00:53:24 ◼ ► to the press. You don't talk to the press." And then all of a sudden, like, Katie Cotton
00:53:28 ◼ ► is there and they're like, "Hey, what would you think about leading a tour of the press
00:53:33 ◼ ► on the record?" But somebody asked him how long they'd been working on the external design
00:53:46 ◼ ► the tour, not speaking, but just walking around with us. And Phil Schiller jumped in and just,
00:53:50 ◼ ► he was ready for it. And he just said, "We're not here to talk about timelines." He didn't
00:53:53 ◼ ► bark at him or anything. But I noticed that he immediately jumped in and was like, "We're
00:54:01 ◼ ► open the kimono here and let you see how we test these antennas and revealing all sorts
00:54:05 ◼ ► of things we'd never revealed before." They don't want to talk about how long they were
00:54:10 ◼ ► Steven: Yeah. And I think that is an expectation thing. Like you don't want somebody to go,
00:55:17 ◼ ► know? And like that, that situation, I think, is it allowed us to see a little bit more of,
00:55:24 ◼ ► hey, this really is like they're deciding these things three years ahead. And yes, they can,
00:55:36 ◼ ► right? They could say, hey, this thing. And what I heard basically, and this is this is not on the
00:55:42 ◼ ► record is not an official and it's not even off the record. It's just what I heard through people,
00:55:45 ◼ ► right, is that they had a phone without the second camera in it when they launched the two camera
00:55:55 ◼ ► phone. What was that? Six or seven? They all blur together. Whatever the plus was with the two
00:56:02 ◼ ► cameras. They had one without, right? Because, you know, what if it doesn't work? Right? They had a
00:56:08 ◼ ► design ready to go. And then at the last minute, they're like, "Ah, let's just do it." Right? Like
00:56:12 ◼ ► they felt they could do it and they felt they could get it done. And so they locked that design
00:56:17 ◼ ► and essentially stepped off a ledge, you know, and eventually, of course, shipped the twin lens.
00:56:21 ◼ ► But you know, that that kind of, you know, takes it takes guts, it takes like a supreme handle on
00:56:28 ◼ ► your supply chain, it takes the ability to like, inch that thing, that kind of major decision later
00:56:33 ◼ ► and later and later. And I think people that treat that as like, oh, they don't know what they're
00:57:05 ◼ ► right. But then we get it there the next iteration and yada yada. But yeah, I think that's the same
00:57:10 ◼ ► kind of thing they're working on with this that if they're making decisions on the Mac Pro, I think
00:57:14 ◼ ► that they you know, they would have had to made major architectural decisions a while ago now.
00:57:18 ◼ ► But I think they could definitely make some real gutsy calls still late in the game, you know,
00:57:24 ◼ ► and I think at this point, those are done. Maybe maybe you got a couple more months to figure that
00:57:27 ◼ ► out. If you're shipping 2019, and let's say you assume maximum potential, like in other words,
00:57:34 ◼ ► they're going to ship it late 2019. I'm not saying they are, they did not give any indication.
00:57:38 ◼ ► But if they're going to announce it, like it's a dub dub and then ship it later in the year,
00:57:42 ◼ ► you know, you figure right now, it's not as I mean, I don't know what the design is, maybe it
00:57:47 ◼ ► is, but I would imagine it's not as mission critical as like a smartphone to get, you know,
00:57:53 ◼ ► that that kind of lineup done where you're doing that really fine tooth like, you know, 16 different
00:57:59 ◼ ► components coming together all into one component, which goes into another 250 components. And
00:58:05 ◼ ► I'm probably not at that level, but it's still got to be pretty soon that they're locking that down.
00:58:10 ◼ ► And if so, if they're locking it down in another four or five months, let's say, or a little bit
00:58:15 ◼ ► more than that, they have a few months left to actually make major decisions about what they're
00:58:19 ◼ ► going to do. And, you know, if that's not the case, then they figured it out. And they're plowing
00:58:29 ◼ ► Yeah, and I don't think we're going to see a preview of it at WWDC. I could be wrong. I mean,
00:58:36 ◼ ► they obviously did it last year with the iMac Pro and shipped later that year. And I guess if they
00:58:42 ◼ ► think they're shipping early 2019, they could. But I don't think so. I think it's a different
00:58:50 ◼ ► situation this year. I feel like with the iMac Pro, they could show it and everybody knows what
00:58:58 ◼ ► an iMac looks like. The iMac Pro looks like an iMac. It's just black and therefore cooler.
00:59:03 ◼ ► Whereas I feel like they're doing something with this that they don't want to spoil too far in
00:59:08 ◼ ► advance. One thing you have to recognize is when Apple makes a successful hardware product,
01:00:50 ◼ ► to edge and this is the way we chose to do it." And it makes sense completely with Apple's
01:00:56 ◼ ► design language that they're going to utilize those little corners instead of putting black
01:01:00 ◼ ► all the way across because they're like, "We don't need black here, so why put it there?"
01:01:09 ◼ ► products and like that, that whole thing was literally just in service of those cameras.
01:01:21 ◼ ► for somebody who has no need of it to put it there, it's like, you know, really, I don't
01:01:52 ◼ ► Conference was that was a couple weeks ago where where these handset makers show off upcoming phones that haven't been seen before
01:05:32 ◼ ► you there are thousands of people listening to the show right now who are saying yes that
01:05:36 ◼ ► yeah, just do that thing please. And second, second part, second part of the question is,
01:05:43 ◼ ► Okay, if you want to go and have John Ternus and his team go off and build the supercomputer of Apple's
01:05:53 ◼ ► Okay, but in the meantime, how about you just stick a big Xeon in a box call it the Mac Pro and sell it to me
01:06:05 ◼ ► popping this thing out while your a team goes off and you know applies quantum mechanics to
01:07:09 ◼ ► they've got the posts for electric insulation and whatnot, and standoffs from the metal
01:07:21 ◼ ► pretty much every major component, like a hard drive and all of this stuff. But there's
01:07:27 ◼ ► a lot about PCs that are still complete BS. Like, cable routing is dumb. It's so stupid,
01:07:34 ◼ ► right? Like that you have to figure out how to route cables inside this case for work for airflow.
01:07:39 ◼ ► And I know some people like that's their that's catnip. Right? Like, I had a buddy who would route
01:07:45 ◼ ► his cables for weeks before he actually finished his piece. But he's like, he would route it and
01:07:50 ◼ ► then like, put it aside to come back to the next day. Like, hmm, yeah, they do a good job. I get
01:07:55 ◼ ► all that. It's like people who have a hobby, like painting miniature figurines. Yes, I get it. I
01:08:05 ◼ ► I totally get how it might be extremely satisfying to spend days at a time on a single tiny little figurine and that you've got
01:08:13 ◼ ► This entire army of them ahead of you and I think that for like the people who like building their own PCs
01:09:01 ◼ ► want this thing, this, you know, let me figure it out, sell me, go buy an NVIDIA card and
01:09:06 ◼ ► throw it in if I want to upgrade all this. That's great, but they are also being myopic
01:09:12 ◼ ► and they don't want to hear this and I'm sure I'll get an email, but I firmly believe that
01:09:17 ◼ ► pros are some of the most myopic consumers out there on an individual level because each
01:09:35 ◼ ► lives work to figure this thing out. And frankly, usually they're intelligent, they're driven.
01:09:41 ◼ ► You know, they have a lot of things that kind of make them that kind of person. But that
01:09:46 ◼ ► doesn't necessarily come part and parcel with, you know, any number of other professional
01:09:52 ◼ ► pursuits outside of say, software engineering, or even hardware engineering or engineering at large,
01:09:58 ◼ ► right? Like, they're definitely pro pursuits that lend themselves to being willing or able or
01:10:05 ◼ ► desirous of sort of being able to manipulate the innards of a machine, you know, in that way.
01:10:10 ◼ ► And then there are a bunch of pros in other fields who are just as driven and intelligent and
01:10:16 ◼ ► capable and, and, you know, just masters of their craft, who couldn't give a flying F about what
01:10:22 ◼ ► that what's inside the machine or how it looks, or how to, you know, install a graphics card or
01:10:28 ◼ ► want to do any of that, right. And so you I think you have to like one thing that I was told, you
01:10:34 ◼ ► know, that they mentioned several times was that pros are an incredibly diverse bunch, you know,
01:10:39 ◼ ► that the pros as a group are not a monolith at all. And that some pros may love the iMac Pro, and
01:10:48 ◼ ► that'll service them. Other pros do not want that at all. And they want this more modular design.
01:10:53 ◼ ► And that's understood. But the fact that Apple sees the breadth of that, and I know that people
01:11:00 ◼ ► think, Oh, yeah, just give me this thing that I can throw a card in. And it's good. And it's all I
01:11:04 ◼ ► I want is power and all of that. But I believe that it is biopic to think that that is all all
01:11:11 ◼ ► pros want. And pros are a very diverse group that utilize computers to create art and to do
01:11:28 ◼ ► discussion to be had about what form that takes. And that maybe, you know, making somebody
01:11:39 ◼ ► basically the discussion that happened inside Apple, which is why we didn't end up with
01:11:45 ◼ ► Yeah. I guess, you know, I feel like it goes hand in hand with the eGPU revolution. Right?
01:12:09 ◼ ► CIS and you'd be like, oh my god who wrote that external GPU what the hell that wouldn't work, you know
01:12:26 ◼ ► That was a that was a big part of what they were talking about last week with you, right?
01:12:48 ◼ ► The second part of the discussion was really about the pro workflows group and the group is designed to literally hire professionals
01:12:55 ◼ ► We're talking award winning video editors, award winning musicians slash, you know, mixers, basically producers, audio producers, people that that handle and manipulate and use Apple's products in their workflow.
01:13:14 ◼ ► they gave examples, of course, of people outside in the professional world that are still using them. You know, people that are making music for Star Wars movies and cutting commercials and Golden Globe award winning TV shows on Final Cut Pro, you know, etc. Right? Like this, this is their ecosystem that they're thinking about in some ways, because it is in their universe, right? They make software that that these pros, these types of pros use.
01:13:43 ◼ ► logic, of course, Final Cut Pro, etc. But they don't, they know that's not the complete universe
01:13:49 ◼ ► of pros. That's sort of just where they've begun. And they've also begun a bit with 3D design as
01:13:54 ◼ ► well, and 3D work like, you know, AR/VR, 3D gaming, you know, work in 3D spaces, let's call
01:14:02 ◼ ► it right. And so that is kind of where they've begun their work to create this group and to have
01:14:09 ◼ ► this group create feedback and create, you know, sort of theses that are then incorporated into
01:14:16 ◼ ► Mac hardware. And the Mac Pro is absolutely being informed by this group. The iMac Pro was informed
01:14:24 ◼ ► by some of the work that this group did early on. And so like the this is it's existed for a while,
01:14:36 ◼ ► arenas of professional use down the road. And that as a part of that, I got like basically kind of a
01:14:43 ◼ ► tour, just a very small tour of a couple of components of how they use that. And each of
01:14:49 ◼ ► you use for everywhere in that. Yeah. I think it goes without saying, although, but it I guess it
01:14:54 ◼ ► doesn't go without saying because I got asked by a couple of people after they read your story of
01:15:00 ◼ ► Well, that's great. I'm sure that, you know, that's great for movie editors and music producers. But
01:15:06 ◼ ► what about developers? You know, why don't you know, and I think what I think goes without
01:15:10 ◼ ► saying is Apple is full of developers. You know, they say like, they're probably one of the foremost
01:15:16 ◼ ► customers of Apple products, right? They, you know, they don't need to do that. There's one
01:15:21 ◼ ► group of pro users, they don't have to set up a specialty team of people to study and work hand
01:15:26 ◼ ► in hand with its software developers. They've already got that. They're going to build something
01:15:31 ◼ ► that is a great system for developers. And I will reiterate, when the iMac Pro came out in December
01:15:38 ◼ ► and they were giving us, you know, had some press in New York and we got to meet, you know,
01:15:44 ◼ ► see a whole bunch of use cases for the iMac Pro, software development was a huge aspect of that.
01:15:52 ◼ ► that. It was a big part of the tour, and it was in fact presented by an Apple engineer,
01:16:03 ◼ ► somebody who works at Apple in software engineering. But they even showed us things on the iMac
01:16:08 ◼ ► Pro, and presumably the Mac Pro is going to even be better at this. But even things that
01:16:12 ◼ ► weren't just like, "Well, everybody at Apple is using Xcode and building iOS apps and Mac
01:16:24 ◼ ► running virtualized. Here's three VMs. There's a bunch of running copies of Chrome running.
01:16:30 ◼ ► Yeah. Here's like three VMs running windows and running Linux and running another version of
01:16:34 ◼ ► windows and running, you know, different, you know, different browsers and different things
01:16:40 ◼ ► and doing all these automated tests. And, you know, here's, here's the whisper quiet, not hot
01:16:51 ◼ ► Jay Haynes Yeah, and then other areas, you know, those will come. And so if you're a game developer, and you're like, oh, you know, they don't understand my 3d needs. Well, that's what this is about. They hired literal game developers, they hired literal, literal, you know, technicians that use this stuff to their maximum potential to have them create real projects, to, you
01:17:15 ◼ ► know, utilize them in a way that they would in their real life in their real workflows,
01:17:19 ◼ ► because engineering test cases often do not catch or do not highlight the problems that come with an
01:17:27 ◼ ► organic workflow. And that is the core tenet, I think of this. Yeah, I one of my favorite
01:17:33 ◼ ► anecdotes in your story. I think it was john turner's telling you but that they realize after
01:17:39 ◼ ► they brought this this these people in and they had one of the groups is a bunch of 3d artists
01:17:45 ◼ ► people you know i guess making stuff for games or maybe visual effects people probably similar
01:17:50 ◼ ► workflows but 3d artists they're doing real work there at apple and they observed that one of the
01:17:57 ◼ ► i don't know what he wasn't going to throw the whatever the software package is under the bus
01:18:01 ◼ ► but whatever software package they're using there's a palette that they open and it turns
01:18:21 ◼ ► And even if he's fudging some of the factors, even if it's only three seconds and maybe
01:18:30 ◼ ► And so they like dug deep into it and it turned out it was all the way down at like the software
01:18:35 ◼ ► driver level where it had to get fixed, but they fixed it. And now it's like they hit the key to
01:18:42 ◼ ► Yeah. And I think that's the kind of, you know, the, I was obviously an anecdote. It didn't seem
01:18:48 ◼ ► prepared. Maybe it was, but you know, that kind of anecdote is like a, an example of hopefully the
01:18:53 ◼ ► things that they're trying to suss out, but it speaks to something larger, which is that,
01:18:57 ◼ ► you know, they're when you notice, no matter how many like listening tours you go on, right? Like
01:19:29 ◼ ► that supported my dream feature or whatever. And that's great. And feature requests are wonderful,
01:19:37 ◼ ► and yada yada. It's good to have that input, which is why they do those listening tours. They go
01:19:41 ◼ ► around listening to professionals, external to the company. But it cannot give you the same insight
01:19:48 ◼ ► into an average workflow and how that workflow is being negatively impacted. Or frankly, it could be
01:19:54 ◼ ► just fine. And they could be finding massive ways to improve it, or it could be telling them, "Oh,
01:19:58 ◼ ► this is how people use their machines, we can lean into this, you know, for either future hardware or
01:20:03 ◼ ► future software updates, bug fixes, features, whatever. But you can't get that in a in a
01:20:09 ◼ ► hour long conversation or whatever with some pro randomly, you have to bring them in house,
01:20:14 ◼ ► you have to get them to sit down and do their work. And the problem as was brought up to me
01:20:19 ◼ ► was with that is that these people are working on proprietary stuff. And you cannot ask them to just
01:20:56 ◼ ► any hint from them because one thing they revealed last year at the round table was that in addition
01:21:01 ◼ ► to deciding to work on an all new Mac Pro, they were also at the same time working on an all new
01:21:08 ◼ ► pro display, standalone display. Any word on that? I didn't see anything in your story about it.
01:21:16 ◼ ► Jared Ranere: No, I didn't mention it simply because I did ask and they basically said yes,
01:21:20 ◼ ► that you know, it's coming, which we already knew, you know, or at least they had, they had said that
01:21:56 ◼ ► I think it's absolutely possible. I mean, I think the hardware is capable of driving it. I think you could drive an 8K display off of a MacBook Pro with an eGPU. You know, somebody is a film editor and they want to edit 8K. And I will say that they emphasize that Final Cut Pro, the performance improvements after they stripped it to the bolts, right, a few years ago, and have slowly built it back up. The performance improvements, which they
01:22:52 ◼ ► I think the new display is really great. I don't know how big it'll be, but I think it's got to be
01:22:55 ◼ ► 8K because I think they just want, you know, 5K, they did that years ago, you know, like,
01:22:59 ◼ ► and it's still, it's, I still am using my original generation iMac 5K, you know, like the first iMac
01:23:07 ◼ ► 5K that came out is still my daily, that's on my desk in my office and I love it. But they've done
01:23:14 ◼ ► that already, you know, so I kind of feel like, yeah. And they're, I mean, the 8K TVs are out
01:23:19 ◼ ► there. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying they're everywhere. They're not abundant, but
01:23:23 ◼ ► they are. The displays are out there. I think even Dell has an AK monitor now. And the TV that they
01:23:30 ◼ ► showed me was AK. And like, AK HDR is what most people are like editing in, or most modern
01:23:39 ◼ ► shooters who have like these red cameras and other high-end cameras. And then everything, because
01:23:45 ◼ ► then you can master it down to anything and it looks amazing. You know, you have its future
01:23:55 ◼ ► feature film in 8k, you're able to then, you know, in 10 years or six years or five years,
01:24:02 ◼ ► whatever, remaster that and offer it as an upgrade. It's the same thing where that happened
01:24:07 ◼ ► with 4k. When, you know, Apple said, Oh, hey, iTunes can support 4k now. And all these studios
01:24:12 ◼ ► came out with 4K stuff pretty quickly. Well, that didn't happen because they figured out
01:24:18 ◼ ► a way to make it 4K. It happened because they shot it or scanned it from film at very high
01:24:29 ◼ ► I sort of hope that what they're building is a modern day Mac 2FX. The Mac 2FX was sold
01:24:35 ◼ ► from 1990 to 1992. It was the fastest Mac ever made at that point. And it retailed starting
01:24:42 ◼ ► recording price was $9,000. It was priced from $9,000 to $12,000 according to Wikipedia,
01:24:49 ◼ ► and which is how I recall it. I just recall it with some number that made me want to die
01:25:10 ◼ ► let's make the fastest computer we can make, right? And we've got, you know, if $10,000 computer is
01:25:18 ◼ ► out of your budget, we have other, we have great iMac systems for the desktop that start at a very
01:25:23 ◼ ► reasonable price. You know, let's build a machine for people who have the money and the need
01:25:30 ◼ ► professionally to get something truly extraordinary. Like what could we do if we made a $15,000 Mac
01:25:56 ◼ ► the beige box era at Apple. It didn't really look all that much different, and I wouldn't
01:26:15 ◼ ► But the other thing that made me laugh is talking about 8K displays. Look at the display
01:26:49 ◼ ► I think I might be misremembering my timeline, but it might be the case that in 1990 there
01:26:57 ◼ ► Or I guess we had 15-inch for a while, too, but 13-inch might have been the most you could
01:27:02 ◼ ► get? You could buy a $10,000 computer in 1990 dollars. So it's probably at least like a
01:27:24 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe-Rice:** All right, there we go. So it's a $17,000 starting price in today's
01:28:28 ◼ ► modern machine feel as good as possible. Just like the modern cheese grater, let's call it, right?
01:28:38 ◼ ► you know, you can clip everything in. Dead silent, you know, whatever, whatever the case,
01:28:43 ◼ ► water cooled, you know, etc. But then you the other way you could think of it as like, hey,
01:28:48 ◼ ► what if, you know, the because they were very hot on eGPU right now. And yes, admittedly,
01:28:55 ◼ ► it had just shipped, you know, support for it had just shipped. And so they were highlighting it
01:28:59 ◼ ► for me just like, hey, we've got you here. So we're going to show you a few things that utilize
01:29:04 ◼ ► the GPU, which is totally understandable. One of the demos that I got was this, you know, kind of
01:29:10 ◼ ► insane, you know, detailed, I mean, it wasn't that insane. It's like a typical graphics card stress
01:29:16 ◼ ► test type thing. But it had like a planet with a bunch of asteroids around it that were actual
01:29:20 ◼ ► geometry, not a particle effect. And they pushed that on a Mac, on a MacBook Pro, and obviously,
01:29:31 ◼ ► using the internal graphics card. And then they did a demonstration, which was fairly impressive.
01:29:38 ◼ ► If you know anything about the way that systems recognize graphics cards, if you remove a graphics
01:29:46 ◼ ► card from a system, usually the computer crashes just immediately because it's like, I have
01:30:11 ◼ ► I don't whatever man I'm I quit. And so what the what they demonstrated though was they had two e
01:30:17 ◼ ► GPU units, one with the like an AMD 580 or something in it. And then the other one had the
01:30:25 ◼ ► Vega part, the one that's in the iMac Pro or something like it. I think they said it was the
01:30:30 ◼ ► Vega part. So but that basically is like one of the beefier GPUs you can buy. And so they had those
01:30:37 ◼ ► two lined up. You plug in one, it takes over the rendering. Obviously, it hands off any
01:30:44 ◼ ► modern application, relatively new application built for OS X. I can't remember whether it
01:30:51 ◼ ► works out of the box or whether there's some small change you can make to where it understands
01:30:55 ◼ ► this. But they also said, actually, I'll dig it, I'll get to that in a second. But yeah,
01:30:59 ◼ ► so that it'll understand the handoff and says, "Okay, I'm going to quit using this GPU here
01:31:05 ◼ ► on board. I'm going to start using this one." And then they had a monitor plugged into the
01:31:10 ◼ ► back of the GPU, the eGPU, and then of course the monitor comes active and it's pushing
01:31:20 ◼ ► clever the way they handle it. Just one Thunderbolt cable, boop, right? Just plug it in. You now
01:31:32 ◼ ► it's a new application, it completely handles it fine. They actually have a dialogue for
01:31:41 ◼ ► like, you know, a little GPU icon that appears in the bar and you eject it, you know, you
01:31:49 ◼ ► says, "Wait, you're going to want to save anything you're doing here because the moment
01:31:53 ◼ ► you unplug this, it's going to go into psychosis and just quit, you know, just crash on you."
01:31:58 ◼ ► And I told them, of course, nobody has ever removed any peripheral without first ejecting
01:32:33 ◼ ► it happens incredibly quickly and gracefully, from what I observed. But then they did one
01:32:38 ◼ ► further, which is that they plugged in two. So they plugged in one that was the 580 and
01:32:43 ◼ ► then one that was the Vega. And so you have two Thunderbolt ports, essentially, and utilizing
01:32:54 ◼ ► went with 4 thunderbolts and not legacy stuff, which some people will complain, and whatever,
01:33:00 ◼ ► I'm not your complaint department. But the, well I got a bunch of flack on Twitter, like,
01:33:10 ◼ ► never know, right? Like, maybe you will. Anyhow, that's the decision that they made to enable
01:33:15 ◼ ► this kind of thing. And they plugged in both parts, they fired it up again, and of course,
01:33:49 ◼ ► that there aren't competitors to Cinema 4D. I'm just saying that there are people using Cinema 4D
01:33:59 ◼ ► Jared Ranere: Right, exactly. And so the way that it worked is you plugged in both GPUs,
01:34:04 ◼ ► and you have the machine, and then you told the window, the viewport, which is the way it works
01:34:10 ◼ ► in 3D software, you tell a viewport to start rendering, or you tell it how you want it to
01:34:14 ◼ ► render. And so you start the viewport rendering. And then what happened is they actually had
01:34:28 ◼ ► OS X, popped up on the viewport and it essentially showed you a slice of the viewport was being
01:34:37 ◼ ► given to each GPU. And I asked them whether it was, like, this was allegorical, you know,
01:34:45 ◼ ► or actual. And I think it's actual, but if somebody out there wants to correct me, that's
01:34:56 ◼ ► on the left, which was, this was a car dashboard that they were rendering, a picture of a car
01:35:05 ◼ ► you know, plastic texture, was being rendered by the GPU of the MacBook. Then a larger chunk
01:35:15 ◼ ► is being rendered by the 580. And then the largest chunk of the viewport was being rendered
01:35:19 ◼ ► by the Vega part. So it essentially allowed you to like utilize three GPUs at once just
01:35:25 ◼ ► by plugging them in and then it would apportion out the work to whatever, you know, load that
01:35:40 ◼ ► 10 GPU, it's like, I can help tell us. Yeah, that was basically it. It was a tiny sliver.
01:35:50 ◼ ► I'll handle the notifications menu. Give me the notifications. I'll handle those for you boys,
01:36:02 ◼ ► if you get an iMessage while we're doing this. But that that was very interesting to me,
01:36:07 ◼ ► this philosophy of like, "Hey, how much compute power do you need GPU-wise for GPU-bound instruction?"
01:36:16 ◼ ► And you can have that instantly and not have it when you don't want it. When you want to move away
01:36:22 ◼ ► from your desk or walk away or carry your work with you or whatever. It's not about like, "Okay,
01:36:26 ◼ ► got to transfer files and do all this stuff." If you're doing truly GPU-bound work, you can get a
01:36:32 ◼ ► MacBook Pro and still do that work, which is amazing. And if it's, especially if it's not very
01:36:39 ◼ ► CPU bound, your two year old MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt, you know, by the time each GPUs
01:36:45 ◼ ► really get out there, your two year old MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt three is an immensely capable
01:36:51 ◼ ► machine for rendering work and stuff still like the effectively extended the life of people's
01:36:56 ◼ ► MacBook Pros massively, or enable them to do things that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
01:37:30 ◼ ► put it in the show notes. But yeah, it's basically like, hey, here's, you know, take your machine
01:37:36 ◼ ► running the latest version of OS X that obviously has the ports to support it. And you're golden,
01:37:44 ◼ ► you know, plug it in, and it'll know what to do. It'll take over that. Obviously, if you have stuff
01:37:48 ◼ ► where the CPU is handling a lot of additional computation, it's still being limited, you know,
01:37:55 ◼ ► to you and to the age of your computer. But the fact that it can say, hey, give me this beefy ass
01:38:03 ◼ ► job, I'll figure out which GPU to throw it to whether it's the one on board or the one off board.
01:38:14 ◼ ► clamshell. And it's like you're using a much beefier machine. To me, seeing it live and the
01:38:20 ◼ ► way that they're just swapping in and out and all of that. It says a hell of a lot to me about the
01:38:52 ◼ ► So don't listen to me about this, but I did find it compelling and interesting, you know, to see that happen live
01:39:20 ◼ ► Philosophically about plugging in external GPUs and then other external things that sounds more Apple like to me
01:39:27 ◼ ► Philosophically then put a card in the case, you know shut that machine down right plug it
01:39:31 ◼ ► Put a card in the case hot swap ability. Just plug it unplug it, you know, you're doing this stuff, you know that requires
01:39:39 ◼ ► you know the best external GPU money can buy but you're you've got to get out of the office because the
01:39:50 ◼ ► So you just unplug go to a coffee shop for an hour and work on something an aspect of the project. That's not
01:40:00 ◼ ► But that you just don't unplug it and pick up your macbook and go that's actually kind of amazing
01:40:13 ◼ ► switch to a different machine because now you're on a MacBook and open this thing up and you know
01:40:24 ◼ ► Right and you could do setups like a lot of the stuff they talked about some of it was with logic as well
01:40:34 ◼ ► From a rendering perspective like the MacBook Pro can handle a decent amount of geometry
01:40:42 ◼ ► you know, in bare polygonal form, right, or wireframe or whatever. So you could do a lot
01:40:52 ◼ ► you have that at your fingertips, but it doesn't mean you need it all the time. And in fact,
01:40:57 ◼ ► for bigger units where you have like, you know, two GPUs plugged in and you're rendering
01:41:02 ◼ ► or you're basically treating it as a rendering farm, a miniature one. And I was talking to
01:41:06 ◼ ► some smart people in and I don't think it's that secret or not, but I was really talking
01:41:14 ◼ ► to some smart folks that work at like Pixar and whatnot. And they were saying that there's
01:41:23 ◼ ► farm or another VFX house which uses AWS or one of the bigger server services like Google's,
01:41:35 ◼ ► using their onboard GPU. In other words, there's probably a really solid long tail market for
01:41:42 ◼ ► people that need GPU bound instruction stuff, work done, that want to build their own miniature
01:41:47 ◼ ► render farm. And you could do a render, build a little render farm for yourself with just
01:41:58 ◼ ► in getting your proofs out and all of that. Even if you used, for your final render, you
01:42:02 ◼ ► used a bigger farm or spun up servers, you could definitely get your dailies out of that,
01:42:17 ◼ ► I'm not a 3D professional. What is the deal—even the iMac Pro comes with Radeon, the Vega 56
01:42:57 ◼ ► I could be misremembering, but what do you make of that? Is it a thing or is it not a thing?
01:43:19 ◼ ► I mean, I think that there's a lot of, you know, Nvidia is thinking correctly about a lot of stuff and they are smart. I mean, they, the Nvidia and all GPUs sort of got really kind of blindsided by the cryptocurrency or crypto industry at large, you know, and they really, you know, we're steamrolled in and really skewed the prices and availability and everything of all these cards.
01:44:12 ◼ ► gamers, all of that, because they, but they do support, you know, Mac, right? Like they,
01:44:17 ◼ ► and they have for a while, the Nvidia GPUs have supported Mac since, I mean, like early last year,
01:44:24 ◼ ► I think there was a nice wave of like additional support for Mac. So I don't think that there's any
01:44:28 ◼ ► acromony there. I don't know if it's an absolute must that it should support Nvidia cards, but I
01:44:33 ◼ ► sure as hell would hope so. I would say that like, you know, if the GPU that's Nvidia, like, there's
01:44:41 ◼ ► no reason that should work any different from an AMD GPU that you plug into your dear machine. So
01:44:49 ◼ ► I'd say it's a must that that works. But I don't know whether or not they will use the part if it's
01:44:56 ◼ ► of that model where the cards are internal, you know, they may just go with one partner.
01:45:04 ◼ ► The alternative is, of course, is that there have been rumblings forever that Apple wants to build
01:45:09 ◼ ► build their own GPUs. But I think that will come very, very, very far down the road for
01:45:19 ◼ ► that's where all of the advantages like power, you know, and battery usage have come into
01:45:26 ◼ ► play. That's what they're building it for. They're not building it because they can make
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01:48:05 ◼ ► All right, you mentioned that there's rumors that Apple is getting into making their own
01:48:16 ◼ ► The other recent rumor that I think we have to talk about is there was a Bloomberg report
01:48:29 ◼ ► in-house chips starting in 2020, which people have inspected. The timing, putting a specific
01:48:38 ◼ ► year on it is obviously news, but you'd have to have your head in the sand or be totally ignorant
01:48:44 ◼ ► not to have been thinking ever since the Apple A series chips started coming out for the iPhone
01:48:51 ◼ ► that Apple might switch to doing their own chips for everything because Apple likes to have control
01:49:03 ◼ ► over the years that have been held up by Intel's ability to ship on time. So it makes all the
01:49:16 ◼ ► would. The question is, and I've gotten it from a lot of people, you probably have too,
01:49:23 ◼ ► do you think this new Mac Pro that's not coming until next year? Is that the explanation for
01:49:29 ◼ ► why the new Mac Pro isn't coming until next year? Because it'll be the first thing that
01:49:47 ◼ ► So however much faith you put in the Bloomberg story, which Mark Gurman, I forget who else's
01:49:55 ◼ ► byline was on it, but I really, really doubt that if that story is completely true, I really
01:50:02 ◼ ► doubt that it's going to come out early. You know, like I would guess that if the current
01:50:07 ◼ ► plan, if there really is a plan, if that story is completely true, and Apple is planning
01:50:11 ◼ ► to ship to in-house designed CPUs for Macs by 2020, I think that that means it'll come 2020
01:50:18 ◼ ► at the earliest and maybe 2021 because these things sometimes take longer than you think they
01:50:25 ◼ ► will. And if they're already saying, and they started last year on a new Mac Pro, that has to
01:50:33 ◼ ► be two separate things. It just doesn't make any sense to me that they would be related. I sort of
01:50:38 ◼ ► think this is people just desperately trying to understand the how hard can it be to ship a work
01:50:45 ◼ ► station? Like, right, not so much that they want this to be true. It's not so much that they they've
01:50:52 ◼ ► thought through all of the technical aspects of it. Like, would these be a series arm chips? And
01:50:56 ◼ ► would this you know, all the complications that that would entail of, you know, having a new
01:51:04 ◼ ► blah, blah, blah. Forget that. I mean, ARM is just not designed for high power, you know, use it,
01:51:10 ◼ ► it would basically be a redesign chip completely. I mean, we're talking like, it can't be any
01:51:16 ◼ ► iteration of what they built before. Because ARM is specifically Apple went with ARM not because it
01:51:21 ◼ ► was different, but because very specifically, it's sipped power. Right. And it's, you know,
01:51:27 ◼ ► useful for making devices like iPads and phones and watches, right? Like what makes Apple's
01:51:36 ◼ ► in-house design team so good at like, "Wow, this new series three Apple Watch is so much
01:51:41 ◼ ► faster than just two years ago." Like that skill set doesn't really translate to, "Let's render
01:51:48 ◼ ► a scene from the new Star Wars movie." Yeah. I mean, it doesn't, I will say like the chip
01:52:58 ◼ ► Right. Because somebody, whether if you take your, if you make a misstep as a chip maker,
01:53:03 ◼ ► or just start resting on your laurels, somebody else is going to stay. The history of the computer
01:53:10 ◼ ► industry is showing that somebody else is going to come in with their pedal to the metal and make
01:53:14 ◼ ► a chip that is the state of the art in every aspect, you know, you know, and, and eat your
01:53:22 ◼ ► lunch, right? Right. Yeah, I think these are two totally unrelated stories. If it's true that
01:53:29 ◼ ► Apple is switching to in-house chips, whether they are ARM or they're their own in-house x86
01:53:35 ◼ ► or whatever, I don't think that has any relation to a Mac Pro that started being engineered last
01:53:47 ◼ ► Right. I'm sure that they're, you know, it... I'm sure they're also not happening in isolation,
01:53:58 ◼ ► if this is true, and I have no idea, but if it is true that there is a plan to switch to in-house
01:54:12 ◼ ► Right. I'm pretty sure. And so I'm sure they're thinking about it, but I don't think that,
01:54:17 ◼ ► you know, you know, there's an art to shipping, whether it's software or hardware, right. And
01:54:21 ◼ ► it's, you know, to ship one of these in 2019, you've got to, you know, you start cutting things
01:54:32 ◼ ► using in-house CPUs that don't exist yet isn't something you can do now to ship in 2019.
01:54:39 ◼ ► Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, good luck with that one. I don't believe that either. I think it's
01:54:46 ◼ ► definitely something along the lines of, you know, the GPU in their own iDevices thing. That's not
01:54:55 ◼ ► theirs either, right? It's not a completely Apple-built part yet by any means. But it is
01:55:00 ◼ ► certainly closer to custom, whatever you want to call it. You know, they did a lot of work
01:55:17 ◼ ► templatization and in kind of similar structures as other existing GPUs. But the the fact that
01:55:27 ◼ ► chips as a given. But like, if you look at that situation, I can imagine that if they chose like
01:55:34 ◼ ► a manufacturer, an x86 manufacturer of some sort, to build the CPUs in that, let's say it's Intel,
01:55:40 ◼ ► and they're going to build them a chip for that computer, I can imagine them having extensive
01:55:47 ◼ ► custom requirements that make it wildly different than a normal off the shelf Intel part. You know,
01:56:11 ◼ ► major CPU transitions with the Mac. And the first Macs ran on Motorola 6800 family chips,
01:56:27 ◼ ► And they switched everything, not all at once, but in the course of a year, everything went from
01:56:33 ◼ ► being Motorola 68,000-based to PowerPC-based. And gosh, I even forget what it was called,
01:56:41 ◼ ► but there was an... But you could run your 68,000 software in emulation for a couple of years.
01:56:51 ◼ ► And then they sort of did the same thing when they switched in 2005 from the PowerPC to Intel.
01:57:01 ◼ ► And they had a—I remember the name of that one. It was called Rosetta. And Rosetta would let you
01:57:34 ◼ ► perspective. But then again, within a year, the entire product line had been moved to Intel.
01:57:40 ◼ ► every single Mac, you know, after the first one shipped a year later, when you'd go in an Apple
01:57:45 ◼ ► store, every Mac was on an Intel processor. I'm not 100% sure if they switch to ARM chips,
01:57:52 ◼ ► in-house designed ARM chips for Macs. I'm not sure that they would switch all of them. I could see
01:57:58 ◼ ► them and I think that I don't think the developer story would be all that complicated by it. I mean,
01:58:05 ◼ ► It might be because you'd have to be able to it might have a lot of games for example that only run on the
01:58:47 ◼ ► Upcoming Mac Pro and stuff that you know will just stick with Intel and let them do what they do best
01:58:56 ◼ ► It might just be that if they do switch they will switch everything and they'll figure out a way to get high performance
01:59:08 ◼ ► Yeah, I think it's an interesting one and it's compelling every time it comes up because
01:59:15 ◼ ► people are like, well, hopefully they're thinking this and it's not just from a shock and awe
01:59:20 ◼ ► perspective, right? Which is like, oh yeah, they're switching from Intel and it's going
01:59:24 ◼ ► to upset the business world. That's all fine, right? But it doesn't really matter to most
01:59:39 ◼ ► build a processor that was part and parcel with every other decision they made on their
01:59:43 ◼ ► hardware. And if it's not at a point where that they could do that, and then where that
01:59:47 ◼ ► contributes to significant gains in performance, or, frankly, if it's Apple, we're talking
02:00:20 ◼ ► can, if they can do their own in and have their own whitelist providers make their own chips, they
02:00:26 ◼ ► don't have to rely on Intel, there's only so many boundaries in the world, though. And I'm sure
02:00:30 ◼ ► they're already getting a pretty damn good deal. And so the financial aspects of it are just going
02:00:36 ◼ ► to be relatively speaking, although there will probably be the size of a small company of its
02:00:42 ◼ ► own, right, will be a relatively drop in the bucket for Apple. And so I think it would all really
02:00:47 ◼ ► hinge on performance-based or experience-based improvements. And, you know, that is where you
02:00:55 ◼ ► have to like concentrate your ideas and your thoughts. And just for me, like, there's not a
02:01:00 ◼ ► lot of clear ones on a desktop right away, you know, in that regard. And I think we've seen from
02:01:08 ◼ ► the coprocessor aspect of the MacBook Pro, that Apple has charted a way forward for them to be
02:01:43 ◼ ► Think it's safe to say that all the other high-end phones use Qualcomm Snapdragon processors if Apple's in-house
02:01:54 ◼ ► Notably superior and had you know many advantages probably cost included since they don't have to you know
02:02:00 ◼ ► They're in control of it if they were just roughly equivalent to the current generation snapdragons
02:02:05 ◼ ► I don't think I think Apple would shut the effort down, you know, like they're not doing it
02:02:41 ◼ ► or advantage often expresses itself in ways that are not obvious to users or frankly even
02:02:50 ◼ ► analysts in many cases. Once you explain it, you know, everybody sort of, the meme catches
02:03:06 ◼ ► lives. What's it called? What's the buzzword? A11? So this A11 chip, they said bionic. It's
02:03:26 ◼ ► No, no, no. It's A11 bionic. Which just goes to show you how dumb these names are, right?
02:03:44 ◼ ► that are used for things like security and used for things like processing, specifically,
02:03:50 ◼ ► machine learning style instructions. You know, I talked earlier about the AI chips being
02:03:54 ◼ ► bigger and bigger things. And by AI, I really mean at this point, machine learning and computational
02:03:59 ◼ ► chips that are designed to run these types of instructions very efficiently. And to see a large
02:04:05 ◼ ► portion of the reason that Bionic works the way it does or is the way it is, is because it could
02:04:10 ◼ ► do things like it can handle instructions that don't need a full cycle and it can run them,
02:04:16 ◼ ► sort of more efficiently. Because a lot of these, a lot of machine learning instructions
02:04:29 ◼ ► junkton of them. And so it allows you to run these instructions on essentially a half of what
02:04:36 ◼ ► a normal swing would be. It'd be like a batter going up to the plate and you're like, "We really
02:04:40 ◼ ► do not want you to hit a home run on this one. We need you to hit it between third and fourth,
02:04:45 ◼ ► right? Or between second and third base." Third and fourth, that's hilarious. "Between second
02:04:48 ◼ ► second or third base. I just invented a base. We need you to hit it there, out there. And
02:04:59 ◼ ► you have that hitter who's like, "No problem. I could hit this home run for you, but this
02:05:07 ◼ ► is shorter. And you can hit 50 or 100 of those at the time it takes them to hit one home
02:05:22 ◼ ► figure out whose faces are whose or whatever without popping it up to the cloud and making
02:05:29 ◼ ► the cloud run all these instructions instead. And that, of course, dovetails with their security and
02:05:34 ◼ ► privacy angle, with their whole philosophy, all of this stuff. And these types of interconnected
02:05:39 ◼ ► tissues of the decisions that Apple makes on a hardware level are not only not possible,
02:05:45 ◼ ► but not even in the realm of understanding for most companies that build an Android phone or
02:05:51 ◼ ► another mobile device. I'm not saying those phones are bad. I'm not saying the people that like them
02:06:02 ◼ ► Now you will be able to eventually, right? Because usually Apple does the thing and then
02:06:05 ◼ ► a year or two later, everybody figures out how to do it. And that's great. But right now,
02:06:10 ◼ ► these purpose-built devices each year that come out like chips and all this stuff are built in
02:06:15 ◼ ► this way where they're not just saying, "Oh, we built this because X." It's, "We built this
02:06:20 ◼ ► because X, Y, Z, alpha, beta, gamma, delta all connect to this." And that, I think, is the way
02:06:27 ◼ ► you got to look at their chip design, the way you got to look at the desktop. If they're going to
02:06:31 ◼ ► switch to ARM, it's not going to be because, you know, one win, right? It has to be a dozen wins.
02:06:44 ◼ ► Right. It feels like a show. It feels like we've covered this completely. I'll just say,
02:06:50 ◼ ► I just feel like this whole thing, and again, I'll go back to what I said before, that I felt like
02:06:54 ◼ ► your story was such good news for people who love the Mac and who are really, you know, again,
02:06:59 ◼ ► to abuse a term that I sometimes cringe at, but I don't know what else to say, power users of
02:07:04 ◼ ► of various sorts, whose big fear is that Apple is moving to this "everybody will use an iPad
02:07:12 ◼ ► and like it" mentality. I just felt like your story and this commitment they have to the
02:07:23 ◼ ► we know it, but the Mac that has these Mac-like aspects that aren't like iOS that we know.
02:07:31 ◼ ► I don't see iOS devices moving to support extra external GPUs. It just doesn't make sense. You
02:07:41 ◼ ► Jay Haynes I, you know, I'll be honest. No, probably not. But I, you know, an iPad Pro with
02:07:49 ◼ ► an eGPU would be pretty cool. Yeah. You know, and then that's, that's one with like, there's a last
02:07:55 ◼ ► addendum to the whole discussion about that, that thing, you know, that, but that story is that one
02:08:00 ◼ ► One of the things that they showed me, which was very cool there, and which does also tap
02:08:05 ◼ ► into the way that Apple thinks about pros and pro computers and follows along with this
02:08:25 ◼ ► know, I think all you know, all of the above work with up to five devices. And, you know,
02:08:31 ◼ ► everybody's encouraged to buy four iPad Pros with every iMac purchase, of course. But you could put
02:08:38 ◼ ► them together. And what the way they were using them is that they they were up to the left of the
02:08:43 ◼ ► right of the iMac. And they had logic displays, they were served by logic. But they were not the
02:08:49 ◼ ► same displays that you saw on the iMac, they were purpose built for iPad screens. And they those
02:09:52 ◼ ► that set up in my work. But that just goes back to this thing. Pros are diverse. And most of them
02:09:57 ◼ ► just want to work in the way that feels right in their workflow. And I think iPad Pros have a lot
02:10:03 ◼ ► to do with that and will have a lot to do with that in the future. And it really typified why
02:10:07 ◼ ► Apple believes that touchscreen Macs are not in its immediate future, you know, they're not the
02:10:12 ◼ ► way it wants to go. It's instead, why not take this touchscreen that is incredibly high resolution
02:10:48 ◼ ► somebody at Apple told you this, but that one of the reasons they wanted to, "Hey, call you in
02:10:51 ◼ ► and get this story out that the new Mac Pro is going to be a next year thing," is that they're
02:10:58 ◼ ► aware that people are making buying decisions now. And if you've been thinking, "Well, I need a new
02:11:04 ◼ ► Pro desktop, and the new iMac Pro looks like I could make do with that, but maybe I'll hold my
02:11:11 ◼ ► breath and wait for this Mac Pro." If you need work, you know, something for this year, you know,
02:11:17 ◼ ► now you know get them you know rigada iMac Pro and I think that's pretty cool and it's definitely
02:11:22 ◼ ► a new Apple thing right like Apple has not in the grass been all that interested in helping people
02:11:28 ◼ ► with their buying decisions when there are uh curiously long in the tooth products in the in the
02:11:36 ◼ ► you know yeah everybody's got to be the tea leaves and I don't think it makes for a very welcoming
02:11:42 ◼ ► environment for institutional buyers. I really don't think that that like, I think you're
02:11:52 ◼ ► think that it was necessarily even aimed at the individual buyer, you know, because the
02:11:56 ◼ ► individual buyer at this point, they're going to take away from this, you know, exactly
02:12:11 ◼ ► And they'll find ways to spend it, whether that's on iMac Pros or some other thing that
02:12:18 ◼ ► But it's a message saying, "If you've got a budget set aside, utilize it for other Apple
02:12:38 ◼ ► We're talking R&D departments, these places that really need this raw compute power that