0:00:00Oh boy, once you start locking everything down.
0:00:04Wow, can you unlock, can I ask you a question?
0:00:07>> Yeah, you can ask me anything.
0:00:09>> Do you, let me cut this out.
0:00:11Do you unlock your Mac with your watch?
0:00:13>> I do.
0:00:14>> Wow.
0:00:16>> But I don't wear my watch every day.
0:00:18But it's one of my favorite features and it's actually one of
0:00:22the main motivators for me to wear my watch because I love that feature so much.
0:00:27I do. I trust it. And I find that it works amazingly.
0:00:31It works, you know, over 80% of the time, which is good.
0:00:35But man, switch it. It was a good excuse to finally switch over from two-step to two-factor.
0:00:42Wow. That's a heck of a thing.
0:00:45I did it. And I gotta tell you, I put it off for a long time. I only did it several weeks ago.
0:00:56there was like an update to, I forget if it was a Mac OS update or an iOS update
0:01:02where one of the features was, "Hey, you know, we came out with this unlock your
0:01:06Mac feature with your watch back in October or whatever, but we made it
0:01:10really fast now." And I was like, "You know what? I got to try it. I've been putting
0:01:13this off, and I put it off because I didn't have the two-factor. I had two-step."
0:01:17Am I saying it right? Yeah, yeah. The two-step, I mean, I didn't tell you the
0:01:22spec on this, but if you're trying to determine which one you have running right now, well,
0:01:27it's probably 2-step. And I think the easiest way to tell, and correct me if I'm wrong,
0:01:32I'm sure people will, with 2-step, you get an SMS message with a four-digit code. With
0:01:392-factor, you get like a more official-looking, like iOS pop-up and a six-digit code. But
0:01:48Switching over is cool.
0:01:51You want to not be having a holiday party when you switch over to two factor.
0:01:57One night I got a MacBook Adorable and I thought, "Okay, I'll give this a spin."
0:02:01And so I thought, "Oh, watch TV.
0:02:05Set up two factor."
0:02:06And I was trying to be that guy.
0:02:07I'm trying to be like security guy.
0:02:09So I don't leave iCloud.
0:02:11I don't tick the button to keep me logged in when I'm on a Mac with iCloud.
0:02:15I don't know why.
0:02:16It's just a dumb superstition.
0:02:17So if memory serves, you've got to go in.
0:02:19You have to-- first, you have to shut off.
0:02:20This is totally like Tom Cruise coming down the line,
0:02:23like-- you land right before you hit the floor.
0:02:26So you've got to log in.
0:02:28And in my case, so I've got to two-factor in.
0:02:30Right.
0:02:30Two-step.
0:02:31Two-step in.
0:02:32I two-step in.
0:02:33OK, not a problem.
0:02:35Have some drinks?
0:02:35Set up two-factor.
0:02:36No problem.
0:02:37So, so far, so good.
0:02:38I two-step in.
0:02:40And first, you've got to shut off two-step.
0:02:45Like, this-- yeah, it makes sense.
0:02:46First you have to shut off two-step, and then to turn on two-factor, and there might be
0:02:51another two-step at that point to make sure you want to shut off two-step.
0:02:55But in any case, then you get to where you have to put in three security questions and
0:03:03optionally I think a phone number.
0:03:07And so I'm that guy, right?
0:03:08So like I don't have the box ticked.
0:03:11Over here I got one password.
0:03:12Oh, by the way, and I was trying to do this on an iPad.
0:03:15So, initially, and so I, and then eventually I moved to the MacBook Adorable, but point
0:03:22being I'm not going to put in like the name of my high school.
0:03:26I'm not going to put in my favorite band or whatever.
0:03:28I have my own way of doing this by using a non-conventional answer to that, but I want
0:03:34to get it exactly right.
0:03:35So I type all of them into 1Password and then I'm copying and pasting them.
0:03:41I hate those security questions because I have a podcast,
0:03:45and on a podcast, I might occasionally--
0:03:47I might tell a story about my first grade teacher.
0:03:51Absolutely.
0:03:53I know that I've told stories about my crazy dog, Chester,
0:03:57from growing up, who used to--
0:04:00My name is definitely John Gruber.
0:04:02My dog is Chester.
0:04:03He would reset everything.
0:04:05He was a great dog.
0:04:06I can't help but tell stories about him.
0:04:08But I mean, those questions--
0:04:09I don't like those questions at all.
0:04:13That stuff seems awful.
0:04:15And because everybody I know who's actually been hacked
0:04:18has been hacked through--
0:04:19or I think so.
0:04:20I think this is true that everybody I know
0:04:22who's had any kind of problems with the hijinks
0:04:26that these things are meant to defend against
0:04:29was hacked through--
0:04:31Social engineering.
0:04:32Social engineering.
0:04:33I was going to say social manipulation.
0:04:36The Matt Honan problem.
0:04:37Right, exactly.
0:04:38Somebody just calls up and says, I'm John Gruber.
0:04:40And oh, yeah, my first grade teacher was so-and-so.
0:04:43And the dog was named Chester.
0:04:46And boom, then they're in.
0:04:48I had an additional problem with the switch from two-step
0:04:50to two-factor with iCloud, where--
0:04:53well, number-- the whole thing is a mess.
0:04:56And I don't even know how I got into this situation, where
0:04:58I'm one of the people who've got two iCloud things, where
0:05:02I've got the one that I use--
0:05:04well, two Apple IDs.
0:05:06One--
0:05:06Yeah, me too.
0:05:07One for my stuff and one for my media.
0:05:09Yeah, so when I buy stuff, it's with a different account.
0:05:15And when--
0:05:15That's my old-- I still have my old, I think, mac.com or me.com
0:05:19address for that.
0:05:21I even have a third Apple ID, which
0:05:25isn't even an email address.
0:05:27It's just a name, which is from Apple Developer Connection.
0:05:31It was like an ADC account that I set up in 1998.
0:05:35But back then, it was like they didn't use email
0:05:38as your identifier.
0:05:39They just let you pick a name.
0:05:40And so I've still got that.
0:05:42And there's certain things that if I go through ADC,
0:05:45they're like, you need to upgrade this account
0:05:49to an email address.
0:05:50But the problem is that the two email addresses
0:05:52that I most like to use with it are already Apple IDs.
0:05:56So I can't use it.
0:05:57Anyway, but the problem I ran into was I turn off Two-Step.
0:06:01And it is weird.
0:06:02It is like, first step, turn off all of your security
0:06:05on your account.
0:06:07Second step, go through this, and then go in,
0:06:09and like on iOS, you go to like settings, iCloud,
0:06:13click your name, and then there's like,
0:06:15turn on two-factor authentication.
0:06:20Except I would follow those steps and go there,
0:06:22and there was no button that said
0:06:23turn on two-factor authentication.
0:06:25And then I would go on the Mac,
0:06:27and on the Mac, you go to the settings or system prefs,
0:06:30and there's the same type thing,
0:06:32and there's a button.
0:06:33And there was a button to turn on two-factor authentication.
0:06:36And I would click that button, and it would spin--
0:06:38not for a long time, but for like the six or seven seconds
0:06:42you would think that it would take for this to phone home
0:06:45to Apple, and Apple would figure out how to do this.
0:06:49And then it would politely tell me
0:06:50that two-factor authentication cannot be turned on
0:06:52for this account.
0:06:53You know how it is, though.
0:06:57You're having a holiday party.
0:06:58You want to increase your security.
0:07:00And I'm like a terrier.
0:07:01I'm like, on the one hand, I'm like, I'm going to get this done.
0:07:03I know I can do this.
0:07:05And then it becomes like a video game where I'm like, and just to cut to the chase here,
0:07:10I'm not going to tell you how many times I tried to do this.
0:07:12And each time, by the time I got the end to make it go, I was timed out on the website
0:07:19because I hadn't ticked the button.
0:07:20And then I'm like, okay, you know what?
0:07:21That's fine.
0:07:22We're going to do a speed run of this.
0:07:23Let's see if I can do this and finish it without having to tick that button because now I'm
0:07:28mad.
0:07:29And I never could pull it off.
0:07:30And then of course I think, "Okay, you're getting your hands perilously close to the
0:07:34dragon's mouth at this point.
0:07:36Wait till tomorrow morning, wait till the holiday party is over.
0:07:38Do this in the clear light of day."
0:07:40And I did tick the button and it did work.
0:07:42And then of course, everything's blowing up on all the devices letting me know that all
0:07:46these things are available in all these places.
0:07:48But I don't know, it's just another one of those things where, far from I guess security
0:07:52theater, I mean, this is such an important thing for all of us to be working on, but
0:07:58that it is not super consumer friendly.
0:08:02- Well, and I think Apple deserves some praise for this,
0:08:07'cause I think they're more or less doing the right thing.
0:08:09And I think now that I have it working,
0:08:10I do like the way that it works.
0:08:12And I like the new advanced, like you said,
0:08:15like it looks like, instead of just getting a text message
0:08:17or an iMessage or whatever it is with a code,
0:08:19you get like a real nice dialogue,
0:08:21and it even has a map showing you
0:08:23where the thing is trying to log on.
0:08:26So they're doing the right thing.
0:08:29I just think it shows how hard it is to move old systems
0:08:34along to the best practices, right?
0:08:38Because the Apple ID system dates back to,
0:08:42I don't know, late 90s, when it was literally
0:08:45just a username and a password, and that was it.
0:08:49And your password--
0:08:50- I don't think I got one until
0:08:52whatever the original MobileMe thing was,
0:08:55where you got the cards and all that stuff.
0:08:57That's probably when I first got one.
0:08:59You had one, Sir Quesa had one of those
0:09:01just a name things also.
0:09:02- I still have it.
0:09:04Still have it. - Yeah, wow.
0:09:05They didn't make you change it.
0:09:07- Not yet.
0:09:08- Huh.
0:09:08- I think that they might,
0:09:10I think if I were to say,
0:09:12if I were to release an app in the App Store
0:09:16under that account, I think I would have to update.
0:09:18I'd have to update it to an email address.
0:09:20I think there's a couple of things,
0:09:21and maybe even if I got like a WWDC ticket, I don't know.
0:09:25if I got it on account.
0:09:26Something goes wrong.
0:09:28And it could be like an iTunes problem.
0:09:30Sometimes there'll be these weird--
0:09:33sorry to go on about this.
0:09:34But Sir Keeson and I have talked about this a lot
0:09:36on our program, those mystery me pop-ups
0:09:37that you get periodically for reauthorize with iCloud.
0:09:41And you're like, why reauthorize?
0:09:42What reauthorize?
0:09:43What is this for?
0:09:45If you got that from Google, you'd freak.
0:09:47If you were just using your computer
0:09:49and you got a pop-up message that
0:09:50said reauthorize to Google, you'd be like, what is this?
0:09:53But then you get that thing where it's like,
0:09:55oh, now, you gotta go to the principal's office.
0:09:59You gotta go to appleid.apple.com.
0:10:02You're gonna sit on the bench,
0:10:02you're gonna wait your turn, you're gonna go use,
0:10:04I have not used appleid.apple.com in a while,
0:10:07but every time I've used it,
0:10:09I feel like I'm indie trying to get the head of the idol
0:10:12when I got the bag of sand.
0:10:14(laughing)
0:10:16I just wanna get outta here without getting speared.
0:10:21Should not have been a much bigger bag of sand.
0:10:24I've thought about it. Because gold, I don't know how... I presume that the idol
0:10:28was hollow to some extent, that it was not a solid...
0:10:31Like a modern chocolate bunny. Yeah, I presume that the idol
0:10:35was like a modern chocolate bunny made of gold, but even so,
0:10:38gold is a very heavy substance, and I feel like that what they chose to do
0:10:43was pick something that was cinematically roughly the same size.
0:10:48sure but I feel like you know I've always it's always bothered me a little
0:10:52bit that see I'm just gonna guesstimate here
0:10:55and I couldn't know without holding the idol in the bag but
0:10:57I'm gonna say three to six times heavier than that back of sand
0:11:01yeah I'm also I'm loathe to criticize the scene because
0:11:04it it famously this is Raiders of the Lost Ark is
0:11:07is arguably my favorite movie of all time depending on what day you ask me
0:11:12uh without question my most beloved movie of all time
0:11:15And the movie, I know without question, it's the movie I've seen the most number of times.
0:11:21And even saying that, and one of the reasons I love the movie is that I love every single
0:11:27scene in the movie. There's not a single clunker, arguably other than the one where
0:11:31Marion hits him with the mirror. I love that. It's a classic. And I mean, my kid will request
0:11:40to watch it. It's still... it's really well put together.
0:11:45Yeah, but that scene in particular is a standout among standouts.
0:11:49Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
0:11:50Here's the reason I know. I think I've told this story before, but maybe not to you. The reason
0:11:53I know that I've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark more than any other movie is that growing up,
0:11:59my friend JD, who lived right down the street from me, had a VCR. And this is before
0:12:05very early years of VCR technology and home video.
0:12:09And you couldn't really even-- it was like before video stores
0:12:13and stuff.
0:12:14It was like mostly VCRs were for taping shows,
0:12:16and they didn't really--
0:12:17all the studios were just sort of dipping their toes into,
0:12:20like, well, maybe we'll let you watch movies on these tapes.
0:12:23Maybe.
0:12:24But certainly not the good ones.
0:12:26And somehow JD's dad got a copy of Raiders of the Lost Ark
0:12:30on VHS.
0:12:31Like, before there were commercial versions of it.
0:12:34I mean, it was like, you know, one of the very early days of movies that fell off the back of a truck.
0:12:40And it was the one and only movie he had. And we both loved it. And so every time it rained
0:12:47in the summer, or like on a Saturday or Sunday, JD would call me up and he would just say,
0:12:52he would say, "You want to watch Raiders?" And I'd say, "I'll be right there." And that's what
0:12:55it was. It wasn't like, "Do you want to watch a movie? Do you want to come over?" He would just
0:12:59call up and say, "Do you want to watch Raiders?" And I would say, "Sure." And I'd go down to his
0:13:03house and we would watch Raiders of the Last Arc and it never got old.
0:13:07The early days of falling off a truck to me were, I want to say, it would have been when
0:13:13I was in high school, probably around the time of Return of the Jedi. HBO would show
0:13:17the first Star Wars movie. And so lots of people of my age and maybe a little bit younger,
0:13:23like they kind of came up watching a VHS home recorded copy. That was the early fall of
0:13:29Now, the crazy thing is, I was in military school for a year, '79 to '80, and we had
0:13:35a Betamax.
0:13:36And the deal was, if we wanted movies, we would pitch in.
0:13:39Like, if you had rich parents, they could donate it.
0:13:41But you'd pitch in, because you could buy movies, but the movies were about $70 to $100.
0:13:47We had a Betamax copy of M*A*S*H, we had The Omen, which was totally inappropriate, but
0:13:54yeah, it was $100.
0:13:55hundred bucks. If you want a copy of M*A*S*H, it was $100. I heard on another podcast, I
0:14:02think, I want to say maybe The Flop House, that that was originally like they were
0:14:05basically building in the cost for the idea that video stores were going to be
0:14:09a thing. Mm-hmm. Yes. So yeah, that you'd buy it and then like rent it a million
0:14:13times, but I don't know. That seems so ludicrous now. I remember the other
0:14:17fallen-off-a-truck movie I remember, and I was pretty excited about it, was
0:14:23probably his 10th birthday. My friend Joey had a sleepover. Joey's dad was a lawyer of
0:14:27arguably ill repute given some of the news coverage in the local town. A lawyer who knew
0:14:35people. Fake news. And so, I don't know, 10 or 11, 10-year-olds sleeping over at Joey's house. We
0:14:40got pizza and Joey's dad said he had a real treat for us. And so Joey's dad says, "There's a treat
0:14:47for you. It might be good. Turns out somehow the guy got a copy of Empire Strikes Back.
0:14:53Oh, come on.
0:14:54I swear. It's like 1983, so it was like two years after it came out. It was probably,
0:14:59we'd all seen it in the theaters because that was when they'd have like next year after it came out,
0:15:03they put it in theaters again. And it was not letterboxed, but it was squished.
0:15:11Oh.
0:15:15Like, you got to see the whole--
0:15:18maybe not the whole frame, because that was super widescreen.
0:15:20But you got to see more of the picture.
0:15:22But everybody looked like IG-88, and IG-88 looked like a pencil.
0:15:28And when the Millennium Falcon would twist--
0:15:36when it would be flying one way, it would look fat.
0:15:38And then it would twist to go through asteroids,
0:15:41and it would turn into a piece of paper.
0:15:43Similar thing still happens today. Like if you're in a hotel and you know, they've got like those giant
0:15:48I don't know why this happens
0:15:48They've got giant giant giant TVs and like SD stations and sometimes the settings are different from channel to channel. Yes
0:15:55I'm sure Todd could tell us what the name for this is, but gets real squished up
0:15:58Yeah from some kind of mystery meat aspect ratio. Yeah
0:16:01So, oh my god
0:16:03So still he got a copy of this movie on VHS and it was like once at first we were all we are super excited
0:16:09Then everybody was like what the heck why is everything squished?
0:16:12And then we kind of figured out what was going on and I was kind of super happy about it because surprise surprise
0:16:17Even as a ten-year-old I was a you know a bit of a nerd about hey, just you know pan and scan sucks. I
0:16:24was kind of
0:16:27Once once I got like five so glad to learn the name for that because I don't think I knew it back then
0:16:32I but I watch everything you remember the James Bond movies where the James Bond movies would be on you'd be like, whoa
0:16:37That's that's weird. Like you never see that kind of weird thing in a movie
0:16:40But yeah, totally the James Bond movies were so full of those. Yeah. So anyway, I was really excited
0:16:44That's that's it was a very fond of memory. So thank you Joey's dad
0:16:48Wherever you are
0:16:50Nice memories. All right. Let me take a break. I got a feed. I gotta fit some of these
0:16:54What I come sponsors in it's been a while since I've had an episode I don't know it's one thing that it's a long story
0:17:01And I'm not gonna tell it's boring. But yeah, I got I got to thank some of these sponsors and I love them all
0:17:06I love him to death. Here's the first one era
0:17:09Eero is a modern system of Wi-Fi routers.
0:17:14The single router model, it's nonsense.
0:17:18We've moved past it.
0:17:19That's 1999 technology, where you buy a box,
0:17:23stick it next to your cable modem in whatever room that is,
0:17:25and then hope that the signal goes through all the walls
0:17:28and floors of your house.
0:17:29No, the right way to do it, the modern way to do it,
0:17:32is to set up a mesh network.
0:17:33You buy the Eero, you get like three or four
0:17:36these little pucks.
0:17:37They're each the size of a Apple TV.
0:17:39They're all the same.
0:17:40You just pick one, whichever one,
0:17:41the first one you take out of the box
0:17:43is the one you hook up to the cable modem.
0:17:45And that's like the master one.
0:17:46And then you hook up these other ones throughout the house
0:17:49and they have a helpful app that tells you
0:17:51the best strategy for where to place them.
0:17:54I think they even recommend, they have like a square footage
0:17:57and they recommend one for every thousand square feet.
0:18:00They have a beautiful app, you put it on your iPhone
0:18:02and the app lets you set everything up.
0:18:05just tap tap tap and then all of a sudden you've got a new wi-fi network in your house that is
0:18:11a faster than whatever you've already got if you've got a couple of years old router and b
0:18:17will give you a signal that's the same all through your house so like if you've got like a master
0:18:23bedroom two floors up that gets a poor signal that's not a problem anymore it works great i
0:18:29don't know anybody who's got one of these who doesn't think it's an upgrade over whatever it
0:18:33it is they replaced it with. Is it perfect? No, nothing's perfect. But they've got great
0:18:37customer service, the app is great, and they keep releasing updates that keep making it
0:18:42better. It's really, really great. This is a great company. Here, it's currently rated
0:18:474.4 stars on Amazon with a whopping 750 reviews. They offer a one-year warranty and it will
0:18:54work with your existing modem and internet service. You're just replacing the router.
0:18:58it. So what do you get? For $399, you get a three-pack that's $100 off. And for $299,
0:19:07you get a two-pack that's $50 off. So go to Eero.com and use the code "THETALKSHOW"
0:19:17the talk show, and you'll get free expedited shipping. If you order, if you listen, I don't
0:19:24know when this show is going to pop out of the internet tubes, but you could get one
0:19:28by the end of the week. So go ahead. If you need a new air airport, you got to do this.
0:19:32You know something, John? I want to say something about Eero. I'll tell you about Eero. These
0:19:34guys are not jackals. They're not jackals. This is the real deal. You put this in your
0:19:39house, first of all, like you say, you pick any one of them. You can mix them up. You
0:19:42can play shell game. You start with one of these. It tells you, "Oh, do the other one.
0:19:45Do the other one. Now do the other one." And you know what? Parts of your house that
0:19:49you thought just couldn't get the internet, you get the internet. And it's like my friend
0:19:52Mike Hurley says, "Imagine that just suddenly at certain points during the day, part of
0:19:55your house just didn't get electric like that's what it feels like nowadays and
0:19:58this thing it works a treat and the app is just terrific not jackals it yeah
0:20:04really good stuff I just love I always hated the way with the other ones the
0:20:07old ones it was one of the reasons I like the Apple one everyone Apple used
0:20:11to make stuff like this I remember my other brand right they used to be Apple
0:20:15yeah but the other ones you used to like type in on a web browser like a magic
0:20:21localhost web address and you'd get like the one hundred you go in there and you
0:20:30get into your links this admin admin I used to have a list in nvalt of every
0:20:37default password so no matter where I was there was a pretty good chance I get
0:20:41onto somebody's wife I was good I don't want to save it for the end I want to
0:20:50get this out of the way because it's important.
0:20:52It's why I got you on the horn to see if you could come on the show.
0:20:56Because I feel that technology press in general,
0:21:03but even in our circle where--
0:21:06I'd say in general, people say that the tech industry--
0:21:09a lot of people mean like a 30 mile circle around San Francisco and--
0:21:16Yeah, because consumer devices and your services and your Facebooks
0:21:19and the thingies you use to turn on your internet lights.
0:21:21- But there's all sorts of other technology
0:21:23and it's advancing at quick paces
0:21:25and the technology media doesn't cover it.
0:21:28And here's a bit of it that I encountered this week.
0:21:31I was watching some of the college basketball on the TV
0:21:35and I saw a 15 second commercial from American Standard.
0:21:40Are you familiar with this company?
0:21:41- I am now, yeah.
0:21:42- American Standard is a maker of toilets and urinals.
0:21:48- You probably peed on their logo,
0:21:50like when you go to a ball game.
0:21:51- Yeah.
0:21:52They have a new technology called Vormax.
0:21:54It's anti-splatter flush technology.
0:21:57Now I'm gonna put this in the show notes.
0:22:00I swear to God, I know it's a running joke
0:22:02that I often say I'm gonna put something in the show notes.
0:22:05This one's going in, and I'm gonna put it
0:22:07at the top of the list of links,
0:22:09even if it's not the first thing we talked about.
0:22:11So what I recommend for everybody listening
0:22:13is pause the show, hit pause.
0:22:16in your little podcast app, go to the show notes
0:22:19and hit the first thing.
0:22:19It'll be very clearly labeled,
0:22:21American Standard Voramax Anti-Splatter Flush Technology.
0:22:25And watch this commercial.
0:22:27It's 15 seconds, so it's, you know,
0:22:29you'll be back here before you know it.
0:22:31(upbeat music)
0:22:34(laughing)
0:22:38- I didn't realize--
0:22:40- It's clean.
0:22:41- You know, shame on, it's clean.
0:22:43Shame on me.
0:22:44I did not know what a problem this was until I watched this.
0:22:47Splatter.
0:22:50I saw this commercial, and the first thing I thought
0:22:53was, what the hell did I just see?
0:22:56And then the second thing I thought was, I got to show this to Merlin.
0:23:00I've been reviewing their videos.
0:23:06They have a couple funny videos like this one that are very funny.
0:23:10They have some that are really straight that are actually very upsetting.
0:23:13I really can't recommend cause here's the thing, John,
0:23:18what a lot of people don't understand is there's a problem with splatter.
0:23:21So I guess the problem with splatter is that your standard American low flow
0:23:28toilet is not doing a good enough job of,
0:23:30of a sluicing daddy splatter away in a way that's acceptable to mom.
0:23:34It's, it's taken away. It's taking away the bulk.
0:23:38The bulk, the bulk. Yeah. Right. It's just the bulk,
0:23:42but misses the splatter. It's taken away the bulk. It's taken away the yellow.
0:23:46Right. How many times has this happened to you? Right.
0:23:49With the splatter? Yeah. No, no. I mean, I'm saying,
0:23:54I'm saying it's like an infomercial now in some of the other ones,
0:23:57they illustrate how effectively splatter is removed. In one case,
0:24:01I think they like show you how to flush ping pong balls down your toilet,
0:24:04But there's one I really do not recommend watching,
0:24:07where they simulate splatter in a toilet with what I'm hoping is fudge.
0:24:13Oh, no.
0:24:15There's matter.
0:24:15There's matter in there.
0:24:17It's like an artist's palette.
0:24:18And it's brown?
0:24:19Oh, sure.
0:24:20It's like somebody put $3 of Nutella.
0:24:22It's like a flight of Nutella across the back.
0:24:25And then at the bottom, you got some kind of straw matter.
0:24:27I'm not sure what it is.
0:24:28But boy, it just cleans it right out.
0:24:30The splatter just sluices right away.
0:24:32All right.
0:24:32In the commercial that I'm talking about, I feel that every single aspect of this commercial is worth analyzing.
0:24:37So number one, it starts with a hubbo splattering ketchup on his polo shirt.
0:24:46Now he seems a bit of a doddering fool.
0:24:50You're talking about it's a retiree enjoying an outdoor meal together, and he's going to put some ketchup on his wiener.
0:24:56He gives it a good shake.
0:24:58I feel it's one of these couples though where Hubbo is in decline and wifey is still sharp
0:25:07as a tack and she's starting to get a little sick of Hubbo's shit.
0:25:12Literally.
0:25:13Oh yeah.
0:25:14Yeah, no.
0:25:15Oh no.
0:25:16Oh, I see what you're saying.
0:25:18Things are declining.
0:25:19Yeah.
0:25:20Oh God, yes.
0:25:21Maybe you should cut down on the hot dogs.
0:25:23So here's how I read it.
0:25:24I read this story as Hubbo is in decline,
0:25:29and he's splattering all over the toilet.
0:25:32And the wife is so sick of this mess
0:25:35that she's taken it into her own hands.
0:25:37She's done a Marco, and she's done a deep dive on toilets.
0:25:41This is her headphones.
0:25:42Right, this is her headphones.
0:25:44And she is now completely up to speed
0:25:47on modern flushing technology and has replaced the toilet,
0:25:50and at least in-- maybe all of them, probably.
0:25:53They look well off, so she could maybe just come in
0:25:55and just get all the toilets.
0:25:56- Well, they can afford a toilet on their patio, so.
0:25:58- Right, right, we haven't even gotten to that yet.
0:26:02Like, let's put one out here
0:26:05just in case he can't make it inside.
0:26:08- What's the second charge for $259?
0:26:10She's had it with Splatter, and she addresses the audience.
0:26:20- Right.
0:26:21It's illustrated with the blue material,
0:26:24a pleasant blue material, which rings a bell
0:26:26from some feminine hygiene product commercials
0:26:29I've seen over the years. (laughs)
0:26:32- Oh, right, it always absorbs blue.
0:26:34- Right, there's-- - That's a good point.
0:26:35- Blue is the universal, seems to be the universal color
0:26:38for what are otherwise considered
0:26:41unpleasant bodily emissions.
0:26:45Nothing we emit is blue.
0:26:46Blue does seem to be a nice color.
0:26:48And so if you want to illustrate the absorbency of, say,
0:26:54a tampon or a feminine napkin or a splatter on a toilet,
0:27:01you use blue.
0:27:02Yeah.
0:27:07Sorry, I'm just scrubbing a little bit here.
0:27:11They have a toilet on their deck.
0:27:14Just sitting there.
0:27:16It bothers me a little that it's at a tilted angle.
0:27:19It's not quite squared up, aligned
0:27:20with the decks of the--
0:27:22the planks of the deck.
0:27:23Yeah, that would drive cable crazy.
0:27:25Yeah, that--
0:27:26That misalignment.
0:27:27Like, who installed that?
0:27:29What's the deal?
0:27:30Yeah.
0:27:32You get a nice toilet like this, you know,
0:27:34I think you want to invest in it in a proper--
0:27:36yeah, I mean, this is--
0:27:38this is a little bit like a Marquez commercial.
0:27:41I think it's a little bit magically real.
0:27:43Yeah.
0:27:44Yeah, I'm not--
0:27:45I realize that, I do realize, all joking aside, I realize that we're not meant to assume that
0:27:51this is depicting a couple who literally put an open-air toilet on their deck.
0:27:57I realize that they're taking shortcuts for the sake of brevity in that style that was
0:28:03sort of maybe epitomized by...
0:28:06I forget, I don't know what I'm talking about.
0:28:12You know a sort of absurdist style of yes, yes
0:28:15Well, even you go back to the days of the tidy bowl man tidy bowl, man
0:28:19Remember the little guy little Commodore and your toilet? Yeah, he swam around in there. He lived in there
0:28:23He looked pretty happy in there. Yeah, even though even though when there was weather it was not good. Whoa
0:28:30That's the forecast captain
0:28:33Splatter splatter
0:28:38Mmm. All right. I think the commercial is notable
0:28:42Even without the capper.
0:28:44Yeah.
0:28:45But the capper...
0:28:47Mmm.
0:28:48It's clean.
0:28:50I swear I almost had a stroke when the woman's head popped out of the toilet.
0:28:54Woman's head pops out of the toilet and she says, "It's clean!"
0:28:57She announces, "It's clean!"
0:28:59And this is a leitmotif. Now if you watch the one called "Klinger"...
0:29:02Did you see "Klinger"?
0:29:03No, I did not see "Klinger".
0:29:04Oh, click over there on the right. Go to American Standard Vormax toilet. Go to "Klinger".
0:29:09Take a minute and enjoy that one.
0:29:10Alright.
0:29:11[LAUGHTER]
0:29:20All right.
0:29:21Yep.
0:29:24And there's a third one called Skidmarks.
0:29:26Were you aware of how insufficient the flushing
0:29:34technology is in your toilets in your house?
0:29:36Well, when we get to the analysis phase of this,
0:29:38I do have a lot of thoughts on this.
0:29:40But no, I have to be honest with you.
0:29:43Barring, let's say, the bathroom at a cinema or a sports event,
0:29:47I do not encounter these problems as much.
0:29:51And we've got a pretty low flow, old school toilet dingus.
0:29:58Maybe we're just lucky.
0:29:59Maybe it's the probiotics.
0:30:00I don't know.
0:30:01Something's working for us.
0:30:02Pound sign blessed.
0:30:03But there's so much to it, because part of it
0:30:08also it implies not only that this guy causes splatter but he doesn't notice it
0:30:13and doesn't like give a second you know backup flush. The old guy. Yeah right
0:30:19Hubbo. If I if I went in and let's be honest we all ruin a bathroom sometimes
0:30:23it happens it's part of being an adult if I went in there and really shamed if
0:30:27I shamed the bathroom I would want to do a little bit of cleanup maybe light a
0:30:30match you shoot a little bit of a little bit of glade right but I would most
0:30:34definitely do a visual inspection of the bowl for a skid mark or a spotter or if you like a clinger.
0:30:42Give the toilet a chance to catch its breath, refill the bowl.
0:30:45Right. Give it a second chance.
0:30:48Like a full flush though, you know what I mean? Like if you don't wait, you kind of get like a,
0:30:53you get a wimpy flush, you know what I mean? You got to catch your breath. It's like,
0:30:56the flush is like a hundred yard dash. If you want it to run another hundred yard dash,
0:31:00you got to give it a chance to catch its breath. If you tell, go.
0:31:03This is a chance for you to wash your hands, you could look at your phone, you could go
0:31:06through somebody's medicine cabinet.
0:31:08They definitely should be washing their hands.
0:31:13Is this too gross, Jon?
0:31:14No.
0:31:15I mean, this is obvious this is a real problem.
0:31:17This is, you know, yeah, I don't know.
0:31:21My guess is that they started with...
0:31:25Here's a complaint I do here, is the whole low flow problem of like the modern house,
0:31:30You get a low flow shower that's not satisfying.
0:31:33You get a toilet that requires like six flushes.
0:31:37People get frustrated about that.
0:31:39What's interesting about this, though,
0:31:40is also if you watch their--
0:31:42if one were the sort of person to watch
0:31:44many videos from this company about how the toilets are made,
0:31:48if you were that sort of person, you
0:31:49would see they're really also playing up
0:31:51how easy it is to clean.
0:31:52They've done something revolutionary with the outer
0:31:54rim so you don't get germs and matter on the outside.
0:31:59Yeah.
0:32:00You know?
0:32:01I think one thing, though, I think that when middle class white people are
0:32:07upgrading, I think the kitchens are one.
0:32:09People put a lot of money into their kitchens.
0:32:11And I think people really like putting money into their bathroom.
0:32:15Yeah.
0:32:16Don't you think?
0:32:17Oh, I do, too.
0:32:17I think it's a very modern way of upgrading your house.
0:32:24I mean, when you and I were kids, I mean, your bathroom was--
0:32:27I mean, not that they were saying--
0:32:29It was simply, is it clean or is it not clean?
0:32:31And that meant it was a nice bathroom
0:32:33or not a nice bathroom.
0:32:34And that was it.
0:32:35But it was like everybody had the same sink.
0:32:37It was just a white rectangle.
0:32:40- Yeah, my grandparents' second, their half bath,
0:32:43had a wooden toilet seat.
0:32:44I'll never forget.
0:32:45Harrowing.
0:32:46- And the only real option was whether you got the,
0:32:51you got two faucets, a hot and a cold,
0:32:56or if you had the one and you kind of,
0:32:58you know, steered around like a joystick
0:33:00to adjust the temperature.
0:33:01And that was it, you didn't have any other choices.
0:33:03It all came out of the same spigot.
0:33:05And now, it's, you know, people are, yeah,
0:33:07people are getting deluxe toilets, European-style toilets.
0:33:10- Oh, and you get a Toto on there?
0:33:12- Yeah.
0:33:13- That's a popular thing.
0:33:14- I'm not familiar, what is that?
0:33:16- Oh, Toto, it's like an aftermarket bidet.
0:33:19- Ah, I see. - You put it on there,
0:33:20and it squirts hot water onto your downstairs?
0:33:24- Yeah, well, that sounds good.
0:33:26- It's better than it sounds.
0:33:27First you scoff, and then pretty soon you're ready to give it a ring.
0:33:31It's quite a thing.
0:33:33Well, Kotke's been on this for years.
0:33:36It might even be 10 years ago where Kotke broke the barrier of, "Let's talk about this
0:33:42stuff."
0:33:43Yeah.
0:33:44Would you clean, let's just say, well, here's a fine example from the earlier commercial.
0:33:50Let's say that a member of your family ate a hot dog with ketchup on a plate.
0:33:56Would you wash that plate with a dry paper towel?
0:33:58Yeah, give it a quick swipe and then just put it back in the cabinet.
0:34:01Just a dry paper towel and then put that in the cabinet.
0:34:04Jon, other countries think that we are monstrous.
0:34:07Well…
0:34:08They think that they… well, you know what?
0:34:10We'll save it.
0:34:11Oh, God.
0:34:12It might have been a canary in a coal mine, actually.
0:34:16Now that you think about it.
0:34:18They might have been onto something.
0:34:20I sent you to this page on the Vormax toilet technology site.
0:34:23Well, they got trademarks on everything.
0:34:25Yeah, so you checked out the various different models.
0:34:29They got white label versions of this toilet.
0:34:31You can buy at different places.
0:34:32They got the Heritage.
0:34:33They got the Astute, the Esteem, the Optum, and the Ultima.
0:34:38They seem to all be the same toilet?
0:34:40They look exactly the same to me.
0:34:43But there's a different name for the one at Lowe's and a different name for the one at
0:34:46Home Depot.
0:34:47See, it's like buying mattresses, right?
0:34:49It's a racket.
0:34:50It's exactly like buying mattresses.
0:34:51Yeah.
0:34:52Mmm. Exclusively at Lowe's.
0:34:56You know what? I'll bet somebody's gonna come along and disrupt the toilet industry
0:35:00and I'll be selling toilets on this podcast within a year.
0:35:03I think you might be onto something. You think about the disruptions in industry.
0:35:08You can have silver underpants. You could get yourself an internet mattress.
0:35:13Right. There's so many of these new kinds of services. You could get like a box full of socks.
0:35:18Internet eyeglasses? Internet eyeglasses, huge.
0:35:21But there's still a big hole, if you like, waiting to be filled with internet toilets.
0:35:29So what would that be?
0:35:30Now, first of all, it's got to be affordable.
0:35:32It's got to come in an impossibly small box, engineered in America.
0:35:37It'll be, and the toilet arrives, you can carry it up the stairs by yourself.
0:35:42You slit open the package and it goes, "Phew," and the toilet comes to life.
0:35:46It's probably Wi-Fi enabled.
0:35:48It's got push notifications, if you know what I mean.
0:35:49know what? And the Wi-Fi, you probably get it on the Wi-Fi first. And it... hmm... I was
0:35:55gonna suggest... You hook it up to your ear. Oh yeah, I was gonna suggest that it have a
0:35:59camera, but that's not right. Here's how I think it would, because you don't want a
0:36:02camera on the toilet. I'm gonna say it comes with an app that you put on your
0:36:06phone, and then it can use your phone camera, and you just point it at your old
0:36:10toilet, and it it it'll do like a, "Okay, here's the water hook up and whatever,"
0:36:15and then it'll just install itself. Yeah. I, you know, I wouldn't say it's not going to happen.
0:36:23Because people are interested in technology. There are things in my home right now that are
0:36:28unnecessarily complex, technical, technological products I could never have imagined owning,
0:36:36like existing, let alone owning, ten years ago. You know? You know, and a lot of things start out
0:36:42as jokes and everybody thinks it's a joke and then it becomes, you know, it becomes a real thing,
0:36:47you know, like some of the gags in the Back to the Future when they went into the future,
0:36:51you know, and now, you know, you've got these things, you know, like the hoverboards and whatnot.
0:36:55We laugh about it but you wait and see, you wait and see if these internet toilets,
0:37:00if they won't let you take one right out on the deck.
0:37:02Have little wheels on it?
0:37:06You can just lock, it'll detect when you sit down and then it'll lock the wheels so you're not
0:37:12sliding around while you're doing your business.
0:37:15Think you'd have to slide to unlock?
0:37:16[LAUGHTER]
0:37:19Because you don't want everybody just using your patio toilet.
0:37:22Right.
0:37:23Right?
0:37:23I mean, save something for me.
0:37:25Yeah.
0:37:26It's funny.
0:37:27Like, we'd mentioned, for example,
0:37:28we might want to talk about voice stuff.
0:37:30That voice stuff, to me, is just one example of many things
0:37:32where, like--
0:37:33it is funny where we are right now with voice.
0:37:36And I have to admit, I'm a little bit
0:37:37obsessed with voice stuff and what
0:37:39what it portends for the future, for worse or mostly better,
0:37:43in my opinion.
0:37:44But it is very interesting to live at this time
0:37:46where you can kind of have your feet in these two
0:37:47different sides of the creek.
0:37:49On the one hand, it is incredible what
0:37:51you can do with your voice.
0:37:52But it is also incredible how terrible
0:37:53it is so much of the time.
0:37:55We are living through a very interesting transition.
0:37:59Now, something like Wi-Fi.
0:38:00I was just thinking about this the other day.
0:38:01Like, I'm trying to remember when I first
0:38:02had exposure to Wi-Fi.
0:38:04And I think-- I remember becoming a big deal around the time
0:38:08I first went to the E-Tech,
0:38:09the Emerging Technology Conference,
0:38:10which would make that probably 2002.
0:38:13And there was the no-cat guys, and it was such a big deal.
0:38:15And I had like, I think an Orinoco card
0:38:17from my Wall Street laptop, you know, stuck out of the side
0:38:20to get the impossibly slow.
0:38:23And that seemed like, it seemed like a parlor trick.
0:38:24Like, why don't you just plug in ethernet, John?
0:38:28Like, why don't you just plug in ethernet for this thing?
0:38:29It's like, well, no, no, there's this new thing,
0:38:31and you can get your internet through the air.
0:38:33And my first experience with that had been on a Palm 7,
0:38:37I think would be my first really connected device, I think.
0:38:41I remember at Palm 7, it was huge.
0:38:43It had that big ass antenna.
0:38:44Yeah, I was about to say, is that
0:38:45the one with the big antenna, like a cigar diameter antenna
0:38:49coming out the side, or the top?
0:38:51And it was-- if memory serves, it was very costly, very slow,
0:38:56very limited.
0:38:57It was essentially like WAP-style functionality.
0:39:01But it was on your Palm Pilot.
0:39:03So it seemed amazing.
0:39:04It was a breakthrough, though, because laptops,
0:39:06in general were a premium computing device.
0:39:09They were far more expensive than the equivalent horsepower.
0:39:11It was a rich man's device.
0:39:13It was a rich man's device.
0:39:14But really, all it was effectively
0:39:16was a way to move your computing.
0:39:19And the big advantage to it was that the cloud was nowhere
0:39:23back then.
0:39:24We didn't even have clouds.
0:39:26We didn't have clouds.
0:39:27So if you wanted your stuff in two different places,
0:39:31like work and home or, you know, work and a road trip,
0:39:36you needed to take the device with you.
0:39:39But you would just move from one, like, workstation
0:39:43setup desk to another where you already had things
0:39:47like an ethernet jack ready to go.
0:39:50Like you couldn't work anywhere.
0:39:51- Yeah, I remember using apps.
0:39:53It was a big deal when you first got these,
0:39:54like, fairly, they were nerdy,
0:39:56but it was like basically a GUI to like, R sync,
0:39:59where you could like put them on the same network
0:40:01and say, OK, these two folders, make sure they match.
0:40:03Like, that's pretty much the extent of it.
0:40:05But the idea that you could just move from the kitchen counter
0:40:11to the kitchen table and no longer be
0:40:13within arm's length of the wall where the ethernet port is
0:40:18was ludicrous, unless you were going
0:40:20to do something like just whatever
0:40:22you do with the computer when it's not connected to an internet.
0:40:26That seems so strange now.
0:40:29Yeah, yeah.
0:40:32I think the voice stuff, it is.
0:40:34It's early days, but early days in a far less technical way
0:40:40than the computers, the text-based computers
0:40:42of our youth.
0:40:43But there's an analogy there, right?
0:40:45And obviously, the technology that's
0:40:47involved to just have the most rudimentary yo dingus, what's
0:40:52the weather, and have a thing that within however
0:40:56many seconds it is to recognize the speech
0:41:00and turn it into a command and then go out and get
0:41:02weather data for the location that you're at.
0:41:05It's obviously-- it would have taken like a TI 99 4A.
0:41:11Let's say you had a perfectly working program that could do
0:41:13that for that program.
0:41:14It would still be running right now.
0:41:16Like 37 years later, it's still not quite done yet.
0:41:22So there's a total difference in terms of the,
0:41:26just like, just pure bits per second of computation
0:41:31that's involved to get it.
0:41:32But there's some similarities in the crudeness
0:41:34of how these things work.
0:41:39In a way that like in a command line environment,
0:41:42you've gotta know the exact right command
0:41:44to delete a file, right?
0:41:46If you're on DOS, you have to type del,
0:41:48wasn't it del for delete, del space file name,
0:41:51On Unix it was "RM". You couldn't just type "Trash this file".
0:41:55You know. Right. Right. Right. And it's the same way with voice. You've got to know these,
0:41:59you know, you got to say it this way. Yeah, there are, there are, especially the thing is what you,
0:42:02um, such a common theme that comes up again and again are these trade-offs. They were just talking
0:42:07about this on ATP, like they always do. But, you know, the kind of trade-offs where, for example,
0:42:12if you want your AirPods to do more stuff, well, be careful what you ask for. Because they are,
0:42:16they're very streamlined right now. They're good at this thing that they do mostly. Yeah, I mean,
0:42:21And I wish—like, the Siri on AirPods is pretty slow and lame.
0:42:26Yeah, it's too slow.
0:42:27Like, I—yeah.
0:42:28It's too slow.
0:42:29I mean, and I guess we'll talk more about this, but I've been really—just to—you
0:42:33know, one thing I've been doing is—and I mention this on other programs, but I've
0:42:36been making myself from Friday evening through as much as possible of Saturday.
0:42:41I've been trying to set myself to using voice for everything that I can in lieu of
0:42:44other things.
0:42:45And if I can't, yeah, go use the computer or whatever.
0:42:47But try to be mindful for about one day a week of trying to figure out more stuff that
0:42:52I can and possibly should do with voice.
0:42:55And it has been very illuminating.
0:42:57Not least of which, you learn how much stuff is really not ready yet.
0:43:01But there's a surprising amount of stuff.
0:43:03The MacGuffin here is that by making yourself do this and being mindful about it just for
0:43:07this period of time, you remember to try stuff more.
0:43:12And if you try it and it doesn't work, you might say, "Well, then what's the incantation?"
0:43:17So like with, you know, as far as these trade-offs, so just to get that out of the way, that's
0:43:19one reason I'm so obsessed. But with Alexa... Oh, God, sorry. With the lady in a tube, I
0:43:28get an email every Friday from Amazon that's like, "Well, here's this new stuff that it
0:43:32does." And it's, you know, frequently it's stuff like, "Hey, ask about cricket," or whatever.
0:43:36But then other times, there is really legitimately pretty amazing stuff. To enable a lot of that,
0:43:41you've got to get into skills. And once you get into skills, now you're getting more into
0:43:44what you're describing as being with the command line. Because you go from just being able
0:43:48to issue a raw command to basically hailing a skill inside and then knowing what the mojo
0:43:53is inside of there. But honestly, it's not that difficult. This morning, I see via a
0:44:00friend Joe Steele, I see now you can, if you have Prime Now available in your area, you
0:44:06can order Prime Now over your lady in a tube. So like, I just talked to my tube this morning,
0:44:12I said, "Hey, Tube, reorder cat litter." It said, "Okay, here's this recent thing in your order for cat litter. Is that the one you want?"
0:44:19"Yeah." "Okay, that's not enough money. Do you want to add anything else to it?" "Yeah, sure, add that."
0:44:22So, I don't know. I guess I just feel like in order to sort of, I hate to say keep up, but to really have some kind of a foothold in where stuff is going,
0:44:33I can understand why people are reluctant to use this stuff for so, so many reasons,
0:44:37but I really kind of feel like if you want to be somewhat forward-looking and modern
0:44:44about what's happening, you really can't afford to totally overlook this and write
0:44:48it off as silly Buck Rogers stuff.
0:44:51And it's getting better at a noticeable clip, and it still is terrible.
0:45:00But when something in computing is terrible,
0:45:02but you can see it getting better if you just pay attention
0:45:05month to month, you know it's going to get good soon.
0:45:08And if you're going to miss out on all the--
0:45:10it's all the interesting stuff is going to happen between now
0:45:13and then.
0:45:14Like once it's good and everybody takes it for granted,
0:45:16it's no longer interesting.
0:45:19Right, everything seems impossible or dumb
0:45:21until it's something you're using every day.
0:45:22And you go, well, of course.
0:45:23That's always been how it is.
0:45:24Right.
0:45:25Did you notice last night-- I think,
0:45:26were you on that thread last night where somebody mentioned
0:45:28out of nowhere. Was it Michael? Yeah, I think it was Michael Heilman, our friend of the show,
0:45:33Michael Heilman. Well, and he points something out that, like, is definitely, like, a known problem
0:45:38that has suddenly been fixed. Other people are like, "No, it's always been this way." But in my
0:45:42house, you guys, in my house, if you say, "Hey, dingus," like, five different things light up.
0:45:50Right. So, if I say, "Hey, dingus," here's the thing that I say most to a dingus all the time,
0:45:55"Hey, Dingus, remind me to take out the pasta in eight minutes."
0:45:58And suddenly, there's all these Scottish ladies talking all at the same time,
0:46:03like trying to remind me about pasta. Apparently, they just pulled an Amazon Echo,
0:46:07and they seem to be using what, proximity? Because I tested it last night, and it works in a way.
0:46:14It's not doing firing multiple devices anymore. It fires multiple devices, because you see a
0:46:19blink on the screen. But only one says, "I got it," and handles it.
0:46:22That's exactly right. So now finally my stupid watch is like slightly usable
0:46:27because I'll be two rooms away from any other iOS device screaming into my watch
0:46:31to please hear me. It never hears me. And in the other room, you know, you're like,
0:46:35"The weather in San Francisco is like ahhhhh!"
0:46:38But that's that kind of advancement. I mean, that sounds subtle, sounds dumb, but like
0:46:42that kind of stuff, you're right, it's happening. Faster dictation continues to be
0:46:47getting so much better. I used to never send texts that way.
0:46:51I mean, once you learn the incantation of, "Hey, dingus," and tell John Gruber to kiss
0:46:56my ass.
0:46:57Like, once you learn the incantation of how to do that, it really does kind of just work.
0:47:01I don't understand how this is working, though.
0:47:03Here's one.
0:47:04Chase Gallagher jumped into the Twitter thread and said, "It's not just iCloud connected.
0:47:09His work phone and personal phone are not linked in any way, and only one will trigger."
0:47:14I don't understand how that's working.
0:47:17I guess?
0:47:18Like I should try with I haven't experimented with this because this is like you said it is something that Apple obviously improved
0:47:24But yeah, it's got it has to have been I'm gonna say on the outside within the last two weeks
0:47:29I'm feeling like within the last few days
0:47:30this is very new like I should put like like
0:47:34Me and my wife's iPhones right next to each other and see how this works and how it decides which one to use
0:47:39Fast you have multiple. Do you have multiple Amazon dinguses? No, just one Amazon dingus
0:47:44Well, we are I have to admit a multiple dingus house and and Amazon's had this for I don't know month or more
0:47:49And it really it works
0:47:51unevenly
0:47:53But well, yeah meaning like if I'm in earshot of three different
0:47:58ladies in a tube I
0:48:00Can see the ring the blue ring fires off, you know
0:48:03There's a cool thing where you can see where it thinks the voice is coming from. So yes, so that thing fires off
0:48:07You know, Jonas pointed that out to me and then once I only figured this out like two months ago
0:48:12That it's saying, "Here's where I think the voice is. It's pointing at you."
0:48:15But I could see two or three different dinguses fire off.
0:48:18It's kind of uneven which one ends up doing the execution, but it doesn't—it will not execute more than one at a time.
0:48:27But I don't know. This is something—again, they talked about this on ATP recently, and I was totally in Syracuse's corner of saying, like,
0:48:35"It's hard to describe this until you really do start using it. It's very, very abstract until you kind of set yourself to the task of doing this."
0:48:42is you become less self-conscious about it.
0:48:45You try more things.
0:48:46You do more stuff.
0:48:47And so I'm forever just walking around adding things
0:48:50to a shopping list to where now I
0:48:51feel like a monster having to sit down and type that.
0:48:53It feels really silly.
0:48:54And I use IFTTT to sync up my Amazon lists with my reminders.
0:48:59So do you do that?
0:49:00No.
0:49:01It's pretty cool.
0:49:02You just go to IFTTT, and you basically
0:49:03say, when a new item is added to my Amazon shopping list,
0:49:07add that to this reminders list.
0:49:09And--
0:49:10When a new thing--
0:49:11the iOS reminders app or not? The Apple reminders app. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's actually pretty
0:49:17powerful. So that, and then if you're a super nerd, you know, you don't have to be like Federico
0:49:22Vittucci level nerd, but you can also do stuff like then say like you can hook that up with,
0:49:26for example, OmniFocus. So when you add something to that list, the next time you open OmniFocus,
0:49:31it sucks it out of that list or, you know, Todoist or whatever you like to use. But yeah,
0:49:36I don't know. I don't know. I think it's... I have this theory about this that I have yet to prove,
0:49:44and I haven't given it that much thought. But somebody had written in to Back to Work to ask
0:49:48us about like, "Oh God, is this the future? Is the future going to be like people in my office
0:49:52talking into Excel?" And I was like, "Eh, you know, I kind of don't think it is because I kind
0:49:57of feel like there's these parts to the voice thing that you don't get if all you see is
0:50:02as somebody being a dingus and talking into the air.
0:50:05The voice is one part.
0:50:06The voice, yeah, that's the parlor trick.
0:50:08But what's behind the voice, right?
0:50:10It's that, I don't know what you want to call it,
0:50:13the functionality, the scripting,
0:50:15in some cases the AI or machine learning, whatever it is,
0:50:18but that middle layer of what it does with what it heard,
0:50:20if it heard it well, what it does with that,
0:50:22that's maybe the important part.
0:50:24And then the third part is the ubiquity.
0:50:26So I mean, I have this idea that I'm kind of
0:50:29bubbling around, which is that I wonder if voice
0:50:32ends up historically being the least important part of that stack.
0:50:35Voice is the parlor trick that's fun to use, but I think that you,
0:50:39the idea of that kind of ubiquitous availability for,
0:50:44do you follow where I'm going with this?
0:50:45Like I don't think you're going to have to talk into Excel.
0:50:48I think that there's going to be more and more bespoke remote devices that do
0:50:52your bidding without you needing to know how to do RM-R.
0:50:55All right, hold that thought, hold that thought.
0:50:57Cause I want to keep going with this, but I want to, I got to break in here.
0:51:00I told you about buying eyeglasses online.
0:51:02We'll look.
0:51:02Oh, come on.
0:51:03Really?
0:51:03It is.
0:51:04It's our friend Warby Parker.
0:51:05They make buying eyeglasses online easy and risk-free.
0:51:08They believe glasses should be viewed as a fashion accessory,
0:51:11just like a bag, shoe, necktie, hat.
0:51:14I mean, how many pairs of shoes do you have?
0:51:16Do you have one pair of shoes?
0:51:17Why in the world would you only have one pair of glasses?
0:51:19Well, the reason some people would,
0:51:20because they cost hundreds of dollars.
0:51:22Well, guess what?
0:51:22Warby Parker's glasses start at just $95,
0:51:27including the prescription lenses.
0:51:29They don't give you a crazy upsell on anti glare and anti scratch.
0:51:34They give you the anti glare and the anti scratch by default,
0:51:37because who doesn't want them?
0:51:38No upsell on that crap.
0:51:40And for every pair of glasses you buy, they send a pair
0:51:44to someone in need around the world.
0:51:46People who've got need eyeglasses, but they're there, you know,
0:51:49can't afford them. Warby Parker takes care of them.
0:51:52It's a free try at home program.
0:51:57You go to their website.
0:51:57They've got, I don't know, at least 100 pairs of glasses,
0:52:00probably more, tons of them, any style you can imagine.
0:52:05You will pick up to five that you like.
0:52:07They send them to you for free with like dummy lenses in them.
0:52:10And you can put them on, see what
0:52:12they look like on your face.
0:52:14No obligation to buy.
0:52:15You haven't given them any money yet.
0:52:17It ships for free.
0:52:17They give you the label to send it back.
0:52:19If you'd like one or more of the ones, you just say, OK, here.
0:52:23I like this one.
0:52:24I like this one.
0:52:25You give them your prescription info.
0:52:26They've got like a little trick to measure like the distance between your eyes.
0:52:30You hold like a standard credit card up in front of a webcam or something like that.
0:52:33And they can measure and because you know, you, there's little tricks like that to get the glasses to be just right.
0:52:39Cause they got to know how far apart your pupils are.
0:52:40They do it right there with a camera.
0:52:42You don't go to a store, you don't waste any time on stuff like that.
0:52:45Totally free to try these things at home.
0:52:48You pick the ones you like and they're, they started just 95 bucks and then they show up in like a couple of days.
0:52:54It's a great system.
0:52:56They've got sunglasses.
0:52:57You can get prescription sunglasses.
0:52:59They come with polarized lenses, et cetera, et cetera,
0:53:02UV protection.
0:53:04And remember, every single pair that you buy
0:53:07includes a pair of glasses that they
0:53:10distribute to people in need.
0:53:12Go to warbyparker.com/the-talk-show,
0:53:16warbyparker.com/the-talk-show, and you'll
0:53:20know you came from the show.
0:53:22Great stuff.
0:53:23I think the sunglasses are a good gateway drug.
0:53:25If you're not ready to let go of your artisanal small batch glasses that you bought,
0:53:30your tiny little Helvetica glasses,
0:53:31start with sunglasses because if you need glasses,
0:53:35you could really benefit from prescription sunglasses.
0:53:37These guys have gotten into retail now too.
0:53:39They have a retail shop here that just opened here in Philly a couple of weeks ago,
0:53:43right down the street from the Apple Store,
0:53:45like the premium retail district.
0:53:49I think maybe arguably,
0:53:51literally within a stone's throw of the Apple Store,
0:53:53there's a Warby Parker you can go into.
0:53:55I've walked by, but I think I'm in.
0:53:57- You think they'd ever get into toilets?
0:53:58They send you four or five toilets to your house,
0:54:00you try 'em out, you send back the ones you don't want?
0:54:01You can't really do that? - They might.
0:54:02They might.
0:54:03That might be why they got the retail space,
0:54:04you know what I mean?
0:54:05So you can go in there and have a seat.
0:54:08- Try it out for yourself.
0:54:09- Yeah.
0:54:10- You know, like people used to,
0:54:11people used to go to the Apple store to check their email.
0:54:14Right? - Yeah.
0:54:14- Maybe you go in there to test out the merchandise.
0:54:17- Here's my theory on the voice.
0:54:19Computers have conquered tasks that the interfaces
0:54:24that have been available have been acceptable to,
0:54:27useful for.
0:54:29So we did spreadsheets and word processing first
0:54:32because at the very earliest years of computing,
0:54:35the only thing we really had were,
0:54:37literally we only had text-based displays
0:54:39and we had keyboards and those are two things
0:54:42that with nothing but a text-based display and a keyboard,
0:54:46they were actually way better than what came before it.
0:54:49Right, that you could do things like you put all these
0:54:51numbers into your spreadsheet and get an answer
0:54:54for what your budget would be, and then somebody says,
0:54:57well, what if instead of 10% growth,
0:54:59we only have 5% growth?
0:55:01What happens?
0:55:02All of a sudden--
0:55:03You start with an electronic analog for something
0:55:05in the physical world, but with this added functionality.
0:55:08What computers have always been good at is--
0:55:10when they take off-- is doing things that used to be mundane
0:55:14and making them-- saving us tons of time.
0:55:17And you have that-- even a relatively simple spreadsheet.
0:55:20In pre-spreadsheet days, if somebody said,
0:55:22let's say what happens if we only have 5% growth
0:55:25instead of 10% growth, but that number percolates down
0:55:28to 20 different things beneath it.
0:55:30It takes two seconds in a spreadsheet to make that change,
0:55:34and it would take a couple of minutes of math,
0:55:36error-prone, hand arithmetic, you know, previously.
0:55:40Word processing, word processing let people
0:55:42who were writing documents make changes
0:55:44without bringing white out and making a mess of the paper.
0:55:49And significant changes, like moving paragraphs around
0:55:52deleting entire chunks without retyping. I would probably—I think there's a good
0:55:58chance that if I had been born 50 years earlier, I still would have been a writer of some sort.
0:56:02But I would have been an angry writer, because I think I always would be angry at the rewriting.
0:56:08In high school, I used to have to do it. I had a typewriter in high school. I didn't have a computer.
0:56:12There was a—one of the history teachers in my college was infamous for always—she's
0:56:18very tough reader, very tough critic, tough teacher. And she would invariably send back
0:56:22people's papers—everybody's got their paper sent back, and you had to make changes on it. And she
0:56:27would, you know, mark it up, and you'd have to retype any page that had more than three corrections
0:56:31on it. You would have to redo the page. So you've got to retype that page. And if that was a big
0:56:35correction, guess what? You're retyping at least two pages. Yeah, because it would overflow, right?
0:56:39Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and that's a radical change, if you really think about it. I know
0:56:43that there's youngsters out there who've never had to do this, and you think, "Oh, that sounds bad."
0:56:46But it was in practice, it was worse than you're imagining.
0:56:50Because it really just felt like busywork.
0:56:52And that's what computers have been good at.
0:56:54But I feel like for things like Excel,
0:56:57there's no need for voice for that.
0:56:58The existing input methods are better.
0:57:00I think the voice stuff--
0:57:01Totally agree.
0:57:03The voice stuff is entirely for stuff
0:57:05where voice is a better interface than keyboard typing
0:57:12or something like that.
0:57:15Well, my response to that listener,
0:57:17I did one of those turns out Malcolm Gladwell things,
0:57:19because I was like, well, first of all,
0:57:21I don't think that is the best way to interact.
0:57:23But the bigger question, now that I got my futurist hat on,
0:57:25the bigger question is how many of us
0:57:27will have jobs where we use Excel in 20 years?
0:57:29Like, if you're really thinking about this stuff,
0:57:32not that I'm any scholar on this,
0:57:34but let's think bigger than where we are now.
0:57:36We've got to quit thinking about things as slight iterations
0:57:40on what we're willing to admit has changed
0:57:41about what we understand, and start looking instead at,
0:57:44what is the trend line for this?
0:57:46And where does that end up amidst all these other kinds
0:57:49of things?
0:57:50But so how much do you use voice day to day now?
0:57:56I use it frequently, but I use it
0:57:57for the same handful of things over and over and over
0:58:00and over again.
0:58:01Are you a dictator?
0:58:03I do.
0:58:03I do dictate.
0:58:05So I think that should count.
0:58:07So I definitely dictate like iMessages.
0:58:13I absolutely do, because I can dictate faster than I can type.
0:58:17And it's accurate.
0:58:18If you're typing more than a sentence,
0:58:19if you're typing more than two sentences,
0:58:21just put a clock on it.
0:58:22It'll blow your mind.
0:58:23Even accounting for the time to fix small errors,
0:58:26it's so much faster than typing.
0:58:28And for the most part, the people who I'm texting,
0:58:32it's, again, a handful of people.
0:58:34It's either my wife, my son, or a close personal friend.
0:58:41And if it makes a homonym error,
0:58:46I often will just let it slide because I think it's funny.
0:58:50If I say it's, I don't know,
0:58:52that the produce selection is a real horror show,
0:58:56and it comes out-- - It comes out with horror.
0:58:59- Or a Horace show, or something like that.
0:59:03I'll let it go. - The truth is,
0:59:04like on my iPad, I've got the small iPad Pro,
0:59:08And the truth is, dictation on there, especially on Wi-Fi,
0:59:13for certain kinds of things, like paragraph link things--
0:59:16I would challenge people to actually try this,
0:59:18because here's the thing for me.
0:59:19If I'm laying in bed like an animal typing with my thumbs,
0:59:22I will very frequently be doing stuff like hitting the comma
0:59:24and breaking this word in half for some dumb reason.
0:59:27Or I meant to hit A and I hit capital.
0:59:30Like there's these same three or four typing mistakes I make constantly
0:59:34on devices.
0:59:35And you don't get that.
0:59:36Instead, you get funny homonyms.
0:59:38But so dictation, do you do a lot of little tasks?
0:59:41Do you do reminders?
0:59:42Do you do setting meetings and stuff like that?
0:59:44No, not for calendar, but I don't have a lot of meetings.
0:59:47But I'll do reminders.
0:59:48I'll say add such and such to my shopping list.
0:59:53I feel like with iOS voice functionality,
0:59:59I'm trying to avoid triggering things.
1:00:01I think that's the gateway drug.
1:00:03is like, hey, Dingus, remind me to bring up the laundry when
1:00:09I arrive at the house in two hours.
1:00:11Right.
1:00:12Because there's a lot to that.
1:00:13I mean, you do get a reminder.
1:00:14It's on your reminder list.
1:00:15That's good by itself.
1:00:17It'll go off in two hours no matter what.
1:00:19But if you're in the geofenced area earlier,
1:00:22it goes off as well.
1:00:23I don't know how many people know that.
1:00:24And it's really as simple as saying that thing.
1:00:26If you want to get started with your iPhone in particular,
1:00:29I think that's a pretty good place to start.
1:00:31great for controlling music on AirPods, I've got to say, but a good way to, you
1:00:35know, get you started with what it does. Well, I think it would be if the latency were solved.
1:00:40It's too much of a pause between when you double-tap the
1:00:44AirPod and when the assistant kicks in. Yeah, my fantasy for the AirPods is it
1:00:51gets something like a—I know this is impossible at this point—but that on one
1:00:55side there's something like—I know this sounds crazy—but there's something like a
1:01:01and possibly small touchpad that's, you know, like the size of, you know, half a centimeter.
1:01:07Right.
1:01:08But something that you could press on that you could tap or push and that has a little
1:01:12bit of slide ability.
1:01:14So you could, like, for example, I know that's nuts, but it would be pretty cool if you could
1:01:17hit that dingus, tap it twice, you get Siri, you hit it once, for example, and if you slide
1:01:23backwards or forwards, it would be volume.
1:01:25Like something like that would be dynamite, but probably out of scope at that price.
1:01:29Yeah.
1:01:30I love my AirPods.
1:01:32I really do.
1:01:32I rave about it.
1:01:33It's my favorite new Apple thing in a long time.
1:01:36It's my favorite new--
1:01:37- I like them so much more than I expected.
1:01:38- I do too.
1:01:39I expected to like them, but I actually love them.
1:01:43But I fully acknowledge that part and parcel of using them
1:01:46is the fact that there are certain things
1:01:47that the old $10 wired,
1:01:50well, I know Apple sold them for $29,
1:01:52but the old, the old, the old,
1:01:53included in the box wired ones were way better at.
1:01:56Way better.
1:01:57like double clicking to go to the next track.
1:02:02And--
1:02:04- But it's a little bit like we're back to the truck
1:02:05and the car in some ways though,
1:02:06or for that matter voice,
1:02:08where like this will not make sense until you use it.
1:02:09And when you use it, you will have no problem dithering
1:02:13about when other headphones are a better choice.
1:02:16It's not, I mean, you're not, you know,
1:02:18just the wireless thing is dynamite.
1:02:20If I'm just gonna do dishes
1:02:21and just wanna like have a little break and do dishes
1:02:24and listen to a podcast,
1:02:25'cause I mean, what's gonna happen?
1:02:26I mean, the worst I have to do, I reach down,
1:02:28I grab my pocket and I hit the volume on my pocket
1:02:30to bring it up or down.
1:02:32But if you're gonna be traveling for a long time,
1:02:35well, you know, also turns out, they do,
1:02:37if you include the time of the battery pack,
1:02:40little Tic Tac holder,
1:02:42like you get pretty good battery out of these things.
1:02:44It's gonna be fun.
1:02:46There's not that many occasions
1:02:47when you listen to these for five hours.
1:02:48- I have never run out. - No, me neither.
1:02:50I don't think I've ever gotten below 80%.
1:02:51- I don't know, but I've gotten close,
1:02:54or not even close, but I've gotten to the point
1:02:56I get like a warning or something or I don't know I somehow notice and I just
1:03:00Absent-minded leads put the air pods case on in a lightning cable and it's fixed
1:03:06I don't know the battery life is amazing on them and I have to say I had the
1:03:10$299 Beats ones
1:03:12Forget what they were called but they're the ones with the little you know
1:03:16Under the chin cable and I liked them enough that they were my main headphones for I don't know eight nine months or something like that
1:03:23But they were I was constantly running out of battery life on them surprise at surprise really moments
1:03:29Yeah, like that case that case is brilliant. Like I hate and I love your tip your little YouTube video
1:03:33I use your tip all the time for getting them out. Yeah, that's the way to do it
1:03:37You should tell people is a really good. I should I'll put it in the show notes
1:03:40Sure, you will have to plug in your Ethernet right after plugging it
1:03:46Let me take another break here and thank what did I say? I was gonna put in the show notes my video
1:03:50- Yeah.
1:03:51- Oh yeah, your Stanley Kubrick earbud video.
1:03:53- Video, AirPod video.
1:03:55All right, there it is, in the show notes.
1:03:57I wanna take a break though.
1:03:58I gotta thank another great sponsor.
1:03:59I have their product.
1:04:01I own it.
1:04:02I think they sent it to me.
1:04:04I don't think I paid for it.
1:04:06I don't even remember, but I would buy it.
1:04:08And in fact, I'm going to buy more.
1:04:10It is a fantastic product.
1:04:12I adore it.
1:04:14It is a suitcase from a company called Away.
1:04:16I've got the overhead one.
1:04:19It's simply a great suitcase.
1:04:23It is made with premium German polycarbonate.
1:04:27It looks like you could throw it off the top of a building
1:04:30and it would be fine.
1:04:31It has four wheels.
1:04:32The wheels are almost too good.
1:04:35There's a terminal in the Philadelphia airport
1:04:37where to get to the gates that I always have to go to.
1:04:40For whatever reason, every time I fly,
1:04:42my gate at every airport I go to in North America
1:04:45is always at the end of the terminal.
1:04:47I never ever, ever get one of those gates near the hub.
1:04:51Always at the end.
1:04:52And at Philly Terminal C, there's a downhill slope.
1:04:56Like once you get past like gate C20 and it's downhill.
1:05:02The wheels are so good on the away suitcase
1:05:04that it like the thing wants to run away from you.
1:05:07It's got four 360 degree spinner wheels.
1:05:10They are super smooth, great wheels.
1:05:12A TSA approved combination lock
1:05:14built onto the top to prevent theft.
1:05:16Is that great?
1:05:17Are these TSA, you know, it's the best you can do though.
1:05:20It's better than nothing, right?
1:05:21It's, you know.
1:05:22- It's nice that it's built in.
1:05:24And I've got one of these and I love it.
1:05:25It's built in so you don't have to do that thing
1:05:27that I always do, which is, oh great, I've got a lock
1:05:29and I lost the case.
1:05:30And all of my luggage has a lock on it that I can't use.
1:05:32- Exactly.
1:05:33And then, you know, you just put your combination
1:05:34in your one password or whatever you use
1:05:37and you know, you won't forget it.
1:05:39But here's the kicker.
1:05:41The kicker is that they build in--
1:05:43- All that by itself, by itself.
1:05:44You got yourself a great suitcase.
1:05:45- It's a great suitcase.
1:05:46And the prices are great.
1:05:47Right there, the prices are great.
1:05:49But here's the thing.
1:05:50They built into the top of the case a really--
1:05:55I forget how many mega amps, but a big battery.
1:05:58And there's two USB ports.
1:06:00One of them is the five watt for a phone,
1:06:05and the other one is like a 15 watt or something
1:06:07like that for iPads or whatever or anything
1:06:10that can charge faster.
1:06:11And so all you need then to charge your phone
1:06:14when you're at the airport.
1:06:15You don't have to go around hunting for a seat at the airport near a socket.
1:06:21Because guess what? You know they're already taken. They're taken.
1:06:24Because there's like one... Most North American airports have two wall sockets in the entire airport.
1:06:30Yep.
1:06:31So you just make, you know, charge your suitcase.
1:06:35Yeah, when you get back to your room, so you run off your suitcase, you get back to your room,
1:06:39and when you go to sleep at night, you charge your suitcase like a gentleman.
1:06:41It has so much power that like you could charge your suitcase before you go on your trip.
1:06:45charge your phone at the airport, go somewhere on the way back, plug the USB in again, and it still
1:06:50has a charge to charge up your phone while you're sitting there waiting for your flight.
1:06:53I tested it and gave up after three charges of an iPhone.
1:06:57Yeah, no, I mean it's got at least, I would say very safely at least two. I don't want to
1:07:03oversell this because I don't have the spec in front of me, but you will definitely be able to
1:07:06charge up your stuff on the road. It's a big ass battery. It's really nice.
1:07:09Or like two of you could, like you and a friend or a spouse or a child, whatever.
1:07:12Exactly.
1:07:12I like having portable battery chargers when I travel.
1:07:15But I like-- there's a balancing act with a real portable
1:07:18charger where you want one that's small enough
1:07:20that you put it in your pocket.
1:07:21It doesn't look like you've got a Castanza wallet.
1:07:23But on the other hand, the ones that are kind of slim
1:07:25don't really-- they give you an extra 50% on your battery.
1:07:29A suitcase, even a small overhead suitcase,
1:07:32plenty of space for a battery that will charge your stuff.
1:07:34It is a brilliant idea.
1:07:36It is really great.
1:07:37And the prices are super great.
1:07:39They have great prices because they sell direct.
1:07:42So here's where you go.
1:07:43Go to awaytravel.com.
1:07:44awaytravel.com/talkshow.
1:07:48No "the," just "talk show."
1:07:50And remember that promo code, "talk show," when you check out.
1:07:52And guess what?
1:07:53You'll save an extra $20 off your first order.
1:07:56$20 right in your pocket for a great suitcase
1:07:59with great stuff inside.
1:08:01It's well-organized, super rugged, great wheels.
1:08:05But the battery charger is the killer feature.
1:08:08My thanks to AwayTravel.
1:08:11Good product.
1:08:13Here's the thing.
1:08:14I keep saying this.
1:08:14If you have a voice assistant and you hired somebody,
1:08:17you hired a real live person, a kid right out of college,
1:08:23to just follow you around and do stuff for you,
1:08:27and you could say things like-- let's say
1:08:29that the kid's name is Dingus.
1:08:30You'd say, hey, Dingus, what's the score of the North Carolina
1:08:34game?
1:08:35And then Dingus would look it up on a phone or whatever
1:08:39and then tell you the score of the game.
1:08:41Well, that's already slower.
1:08:43The computers are better at that sort of stuff
1:08:46than having a person.
1:08:48But the flip side is that the computers will make errors
1:08:52that no human being-- even if you hired a drunk,
1:08:57no human assistant would ever make
1:08:59some of the boneheaded errors that the computer assistants
1:09:07make.
1:09:07So for example, I have two contacts named Amy.
1:09:12One of them is my wife, and I text her probably more
1:09:15than every other person in the world combined.
1:09:18And then there's a PR person who works
1:09:20at a technology company who I've had contact
1:09:22with maybe five times in years.
1:09:25And sometimes when I say, hey, Dingus, text Amy,
1:09:29blah, blah, blah, usually it just knows
1:09:32to send it to my wife.
1:09:33But every once in a while, it'll say, which Amy?
1:09:37But you really don't want to get that wrong.
1:09:40No, you don't. You don't want to get it wrong.
1:09:43And so I understand being careful, and I'd rather have the...
1:09:49But it's just your point partly being like, "Why hasn't that figured this out yet?"
1:09:53Well, it's not "Why hasn't it?" I understand that it's a hard problem to figure out.
1:09:57My point, though, is more that the bar is set at the common sense of a human being.
1:10:03And that's, right?
1:10:05We need to judge these things by that bar of common sense.
1:10:09That if I had a human assistant and said,
1:10:12tell Amy I'm going to be late,
1:10:15and I'll let her know soon how late I'll be,
1:10:18there's a 0% chance that that assistant
1:10:20isn't gonna know exactly who I'm talking about.
1:10:23- That's a good point.
1:10:25- Like a worst assistant I could hire,
1:10:26someone who I'm like, hey, dingus,
1:10:29tell yourself you're fired on Friday.
1:10:32It just randomly picks the first Amy, knowing that your wife is named Amy.
1:10:35It just randomly picks the first Amy it finds in the Rolodex.
1:10:38Even an assistant who I'm so upset with their performance that I'm about--
1:10:42I'm looking to replace them or, you know, let them go, is gonna get that right.
1:10:47Right. This is not-- your point is very well taken. Just for what it's
1:10:53worth practically to be well actually, Guy, two ways I get around that
1:10:59are by naming relationships.
1:11:02And so you could say, hey, Dingus, Amy Jane Gruber
1:11:06is my wife, as you know.
1:11:07Dingus knows that.
1:11:09And I can say, text my wife that.
1:11:12But it never comes out naturally.
1:11:14I feel like part of the interaction--
1:11:16I know.
1:11:16Part of the interaction with these things
1:11:18is that I think that they work best
1:11:22or feel like they work best.
1:11:24Maybe the stopwatch would tell you there's no difference.
1:11:26But the cognitive load is so much less
1:11:28if you don't really have to think about it in a formal,
1:11:33how do I officially want to do this?
1:11:35If I just say what's on the top of my head,
1:11:37it always comes out as Amy.
1:11:39It never comes out as my wife.
1:11:41- Right, but the frustrating part, I mean--
1:11:43- I would never call her my wife in a normal--
1:11:45- My wife, yeah.
1:11:47Yeah, I sound like Borat.
1:11:48But you're like, but it's almost 80% of the way there,
1:11:50and that it can do that.
1:11:51The part that is frustrating to me,
1:11:53and yeah, I know it's a hard problem.
1:11:54It is frustrating to me, though, that,
1:11:56Like for example, when it first mishears you, sometimes it will say like, "Okay, I didn't
1:12:02understand that name.
1:12:03Can you pronounce that for me?"
1:12:04And it's like, "Wow, that's really interesting."
1:12:06You suddenly get really smart sometimes, and now you want to learn how something is
1:12:09pronounced.
1:12:10That's really cool.
1:12:11But then in other times, like if you have exactly two people with the name Amy in there,
1:12:14it is amazing how much of the time it'll say which Amy do you want to send it to.
1:12:18And it seems to me like by the fifth or fortieth time that has happened, it kind of seems like
1:12:23it should figure out that like, "Well, it's always this one Amy."
1:12:26Yeah.
1:12:28You know?
1:12:28What about-- OK, let me ask you.
1:12:33I don't want to drag on.
1:12:34I know I've got to do a shorty today.
1:12:35But do you notice differences in how your kid uses it?
1:12:37Because something I've learned from people with kids--
1:12:41our kids are-- your kid's older than mine.
1:12:43Mine's nine.
1:12:44Yours is 13?
1:12:45Yep.
1:12:46God.
1:12:48Sir Q says he's got kids that are actually, I think,
1:12:51nine and 13.
1:12:52Dictation.
1:12:53This is just what my kid does.
1:12:54She's real good at the iPad.
1:12:56She's real good at finding stuff on Google.
1:12:58She's really-- yeah, she's just great on the iPad.
1:13:01But she would prefer to do everything with dictation.
1:13:04She tries to do corrections to what
1:13:06she mistyped with dictation.
1:13:08And like Syracuse, to me, we talk about this.
1:13:10It drives you bananas.
1:13:11You want to tear it out of your hand,
1:13:12just go type like a person with your thumbs.
1:13:14But I think that's very telling that kids really
1:13:17get the voice thing in a way that it feels exotic and slow
1:13:21to us.
1:13:21Well, it makes sense to them.
1:13:24Does your kid do that?
1:13:26Not so much with the iPhone, as far as I can tell.
1:13:29He's mostly a tapper with the iPhone,
1:13:32but doesn't really-- his text messages are incredibly short.
1:13:35Often a single emoji, usually just a word or two.
1:13:39But where he really takes to voice is with the Apple TV.
1:13:44He had a sleepover-- he had a friend sleepover Saturday night.
1:13:48And I mean, they must have spent 90 minutes just laughing
1:13:51hysterically telling Apple TV to play goofy songs I've never heard of, but
1:13:57they did everything by voice. It was all just hitting the mic
1:13:59button and asking Apple TV and Apple Music whatever to play a bunch of goofy
1:14:06songs that I wasn't familiar with, but it was like 90 minutes of uproarious
1:14:09laughter all through the mic button on Apple TV. We had, I think I mentioned
1:14:15this last time, we had a sleepover with seven girls, seven third grade girls. I
1:14:21I don't know what we were thinking.
1:14:22And the, I mean, seven, seven.
1:14:25And oh boy, you want to learn a little bit about politics?
1:14:29How do seven third grade girls sleep at your house?
1:14:31'Cause at first everybody's in a room
1:14:33and then everybody's in different rooms
1:14:34and there's crying and there's reconciliations
1:14:36and it's like one big sad game of diplomacy.
1:14:38Everybody's writing orders in the hallways.
1:14:41But boy, the Amazon's Echo were a big fun feature.
1:14:45I learned stuff from some of the kids.
1:14:48Like I guess I didn't know the thing
1:14:49about how you can tell it, you know, played with the song—
1:14:51That's the real fourth graders of San Francisco.
1:14:54[Laughter]
1:14:55Right?
1:14:56Right, right, right, right. Oh, God, yes. Yeah, yeah. They're like just one Cosmo short
1:15:02of a fistfight.
1:15:03[Laughter]
1:15:04So, you learned stuff about the Alexa.
1:15:06Oh, I did! I guess I knew but forgot the thing about telling it, you know, what's the song
1:15:12that goes, "My mind is clear, now it lasts all too well, I can see." Like, and it'll
1:15:17oh, and then it'll play like, you know, Jesus Christ Superstar or whatever. That's great.
1:15:21But, you know, there, I guess I'm trying to get at, I don't mean, I'm not trying to be like,
1:15:26you know, Kevin Kelly or something here. I'm not as smart as Kevin Kelly, but I'm just saying,
1:15:30like, look to what these people are doing. They're not weird and dumb. Like, they're figuring this
1:15:35out, and we might be the weird ones at this point. So, yeah, I don't know. But then there's still so
1:15:41many holes. I mean, like, to your point, so I have to admit—
1:15:45It's such early days. It's not even holes. It's such early days. The challenge...
1:15:49Good. I would just say it's not holes. I think it's more like we're still in a
1:15:54canyon and we've built a few plateaus. It's mostly hole, I think. Yeah, somebody I
1:16:00remember first in the early days in the 80s describing windows as being like
1:16:04this system where like you'd be in this in this beautiful office building on the
1:16:0713th floor of this beautiful office building only sometimes you'd open a
1:16:10door and fall down a mine shaft to the ground floor.
1:16:13You just get dropped into DOS out of nowhere sometimes.
1:16:16You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened?
1:16:17Where'd the computer go?"
1:16:18And I think that's still the case here.
1:16:21So I did this other show called "Dude by Friday" where we give each other a challenge every
1:16:24week.
1:16:25And the challenge I gave my co-host this week was to try what I'm doing, which is try doing
1:16:28this voice thing.
1:16:29And we'll see how that goes.
1:16:30But I've also...
1:16:31The side challenge in this was to start keeping track of the stuff that drives you bananas
1:16:35about using your voice.
1:16:36So if you're ready to lock your keys inside the car, inside of another car, inside of
1:16:39another car. My first thing I did was say, I said something along the lines of, "Hey,
1:16:43Dingus, make a new note called 'bitch.'" Because I thought, "What do I want to be
1:16:48able to do? I want to say, 'Hey, Dingus, add this f-ing thing doesn't work to my
1:16:53bitch note.'" And of course, what happens? Siri goes, "Oh, Merlin, your language is
1:16:58so saucy." I'm like, "No! Dingus!" So I had to go in and manually create a note
1:17:04called "bitch" because it refused to do anything with it because it thought I was
1:17:07being a saucy boy. But, you know, and of course that's the first thing on the list now, is
1:17:12that, you know, that Siri chides me sometimes for how I choose to name things. But, yeah,
1:17:17you're right, you're right. I mean, it is early days, but didn't mean to monopolize
1:17:21your show with voice stuff.
1:17:22No.
1:17:23It's just, I do feel like it's pretty easy to write, once you get to the age that people
1:17:28like we are, it becomes very easy to just write off huge swaths of stuff by going, like,
1:17:34It's like the whole Douglas Adams thing of stuff that was created before you were 30
1:17:40is dependable.
1:17:41Stuff creating your 30s is cool.
1:17:44Anything after that is dangerous.
1:17:45I don't want to be that guy.
1:17:48I don't want to be the guy—and I always thought this—I don't want to be the guy
1:17:54who is now mid-40s and has really strong opinions about the way computers are, which I am, and
1:18:02who dismisses the new things like the guys who dismissed the Macintosh when it came.
1:18:08Like, I specifically remember— It's a toy for rich boys.
1:18:11I remember very specifically reading a John C. Dvorak column from like 1985 or 86 or something
1:18:18like that, where his argument against the Macintosh and why it was doomed to failure
1:18:23was that real people doing real work want to kick back in their chairs and put their feet on their
1:18:30desk and put their keyboard on their lap and therefore they can't use the mouse.
1:18:34And that's one of those hats that with a car that says press. Yeah and that's exactly how he was
1:18:39banging out the column that I was reading was with his feet on his desk in the Ziff Davis offices in
1:18:45San Francisco and how in the world am I ever going to use a mouse? You know this thing is doomed. I
1:18:50don't want to be that guy with voice. I really don't even though I'm frustrated with it in a lot
1:18:55of ways and I see a lot of problems with it and I see people using it for things where I'm like,
1:18:59like, oh my God, you could totally do that better
1:19:02the old way, but I totally see that it's the new thing
1:19:04that's coming.
1:19:06I know we gotta go soon.
1:19:07I gotta squeeze in, I gotta squeeze in another message
1:19:09from a friend though, and it's--
1:19:10- Yeah, please, by all means.
1:19:11We're talking about something you like.
1:19:13- Well, it's Fracture.
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1:20:53nothing you can buy them that will make them happier than photos of their family. But do
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1:21:46you're gonna you're gonna be thinking about John and Merlin and you're gonna think John and Merlin did me right
1:21:50Do it
1:21:54Anything else you want to talk about I you know
1:21:56And people probably think that we've got two or three hours left on the show, but we don't we're done
1:22:00Normally we do we had to jam this one in because you're got you know what I could do what I?
1:22:05I'm in a tight spot. It's you partner. I'm in a tight spot recording wise
1:22:09I've got to squeeze in these shows on the rare days when there aren't
1:22:12contractors upstairs banging holes in the walls that the house we're about to move out of.
1:22:17So anyway, it's a long sad story and it makes it hard to do a podcast, but...
1:22:21Well, we probably can't do our follow-up we'd like to do from our November episode.
1:22:29No, it's too deep. Too deep.
1:22:31But I don't want to bust a gut, but I would just like to say
1:22:37sincerely thank you to everybody who responded to that episode. That is
1:22:42maybe the most response I have ever gotten.
1:22:46It's without question for me.
1:22:48I mean, I'm honestly, I'm talking about like you include the talk where I cried, you include that thing
1:22:54I wrote on the thing, like I...
1:22:56We got so much heartfelt,
1:22:59kind responses from people on a day that was very difficult for both of us and for a lot of people.
1:23:04I just want to say thank you for the opportunity to do it, honestly, and thank you to everybody who continues to send nice notes about that.
1:23:10I still remember that moment. How many minutes into that episode?
1:23:14Well, for anybody who's not familiar, the day after the election—was it the day after? The morning. The morning after the election.
1:23:20Which Merlin and I both took pretty hard.
1:23:23We recorded an episode of the show about it,
1:23:27but without trying—the purpose was to just sort of talk our way through this and talk anybody else who was upset through this in a way
1:23:32that was, you can't quite say apolitical, but a nonpartisan.
1:23:37- Not strictly partisan. - Not strictly partisan.
1:23:41And at some point, a few minutes into the show,
1:23:45you said, "Wait, is this a holiday party?"
1:23:49It wasn't, you weren't aware at first.
1:23:53- I wasn't aware, it reminded me of the holiday party
1:23:56episode that you did with Dan a long time ago,
1:23:59where you told the story of losing your driver's license.
1:24:02And I could tell you were having a holiday party.
1:24:04I was having a holiday party.
1:24:06Was that a continuation of the previous night's holiday party?
1:24:09Yeah, I took the election very hard the night.
1:24:14Obviously, I was sober enough at one point
1:24:17to make arrangements with you to do a show the next day.
1:24:22I really tried to drink away that election.
1:24:25And then it was maybe enough to drink where I woke up
1:24:29there was still a significant portion of the fuel coursing through my veins.
1:24:34I tried to scoop up everybody, but sometimes you're going to miss some people.
1:24:39I might have thought to myself, if there's a Wednesday where you can have an eye opener,
1:24:43maybe this is the Wednesday. That's your day. That's daddy's day.
1:24:47But it did. And you were right, and all joking aside, we got a tremendous amount of wonderful,
1:24:53heartfelt feedback immediately. And it lasted though, like into January. And even, it still
1:25:00pops up every once in a while now where people will say, you know, I've listened to that
1:25:03episode six times and I've never done that with a podcast before. And it's like, that's
1:25:07crazy that you listen to it.
1:25:08So many people who said like, I couldn't listen to it for a month. Because they were so, they
1:25:12were having their own dark month of the soul. And they, and then they were like, I listened
1:25:17to it and it, you know, it doesn't make you feel better, but it makes you feel a little
1:25:20different.
1:25:21Maybe a little different and and a lot of people said like did made me feel like I wasn't alone. I'm not crazy
1:25:26Yeah, so anyway, this is luckily all that settled now. Everything's running like a top. It's like it's like really like a well-oiled machine
1:25:34Every day every day every day
1:25:37Okay, so one of the worst things I've done in the last few months is one of my friends
1:25:41I do that show with Max Temkin
1:25:43He he has this list of people this political US political people and reporters and I started following much to my peril
1:25:50I started following this fucking list and it's just unraveled my entire life because I spent so much time there going flipper flipper flipper
1:25:57And tweet bot looking at this thing is this a twitter like in other words
1:26:01Yeah, if you go to max tempkin at max tempkin and look at his list
1:26:05You'll see his US politics list and it's actually it's a good way. Like that's how I've learned about like
1:26:08Molly Habermann and Simon Molloy and all these people that I really follow like some boy is funny. He's very funny
1:26:15so anyway, but it seems like
1:26:19Pretty much every Monday and a lot of most other days someone announces. This is it
1:26:24And I gotta get away from this one, this is it this is the worst day that the Republican candidate has had
1:26:35Set there's no
1:26:37This is there's piss
1:26:40No way
1:26:43Done done. So
1:26:46This is it and then you come back the next day and you go, you know what?
1:26:49Today, he had the worst day.
1:26:53[laughter]
1:26:58Release the Kraken! When do we get to see the piss video? That's what I want to know!
1:27:02In a lot of ways, you have to laugh. It's hard because there are some real-world consequences to the environmental policy.
1:27:14Anhala Merkel, her face.
1:27:16Like, really?
1:27:17You're not going to shake my hand, dude?
1:27:19You understand?
1:27:20We're the last liberal democracy left in Europe.
1:27:23There were a couple of moments.
1:27:24I didn't watch the whole thing, but there were two moments.
1:27:26There was the, do you want to shake hands?
1:27:29And he's just looking at his feet.
1:27:31And then there was the moment where
1:27:33they were standing at the podiums side by side.
1:27:36That was in-- the handshake that didn't happen
1:27:38was in the Oval Office.
1:27:40They had the press conference at the dueling podiums.
1:27:45And Trump, when it was asked about his--
1:27:49Question about wiretapping.
1:27:50Yeah, his spurious claim that Obama had wiretapped him,
1:27:53turned to her and made a joke and said,
1:27:55maybe we've got something in common there,
1:27:57referring to one of the most difficult moments
1:28:01of the entire Obama administration when it--
1:28:03I think it was at a Snowden leak, right?
1:28:06that uh you know that we've been you know but she did she snapped her neck on a double take
1:28:14that you could not fake right like she was it she was like good right not because she wasn't
1:28:21aware of it just because it's so something that was not supposed to be talked about it was as
1:28:26though so it was as though trump had brought up toilet splatter it was the look on angela
1:28:33Angela Merkel's face when he brought up, "Maybe we've got something together, something familiar."
1:28:40And all the German reporters, the German reporters are like in some kind of a Hans Christian Anderson
1:28:46book where they're like, "Uh, why do you keep saying things that you know aren't true?" And
1:28:53America's like, "Wow, that's really brave." That's very courageous.
1:28:56Did you see that the reporter who asked that question, she has become like a celebrity in
1:29:03Germany simply because of her. She's like a modern folk hero. Right, because she just flatly asked
1:29:08him, "Mr. President, why do you continue and repeatedly say things that you know aren't true?"
1:29:13You think we'll be back here in four months with the same situation? No, God-willing,
1:29:19if you and I visit again here on your program, thank you for having me. Do I think Trump will
1:29:24- He will still be present. - He will spitball it for me.
1:29:26- Can this continue?
1:29:28- Yeah.
1:29:29- I think one of the things that, to me,
1:29:32is very obvious was that this was gonna be a disaster,
1:29:36a complete disaster, but I think it was,
1:29:38I also thought it's gonna be impossible to predict how,
1:29:42and I think that's completely coming out.
1:29:44I don't think anybody is quite called
1:29:47the way that this has gone bad.
1:29:50- Right, right, right. - I think there's
1:29:53good chance that he doesn't make it. I think there's a good chance that he gets to a point
1:29:58where he resigns. But I feel like four months from now is probably not soon enough.
1:30:05Will you hand me back?
1:30:07I will. I would love to have you back. What do you think? Do you think? I mean, it's a
1:30:13real irresistible force meeting an irresistible force and immovable object type situation.
1:30:19One part of this, one part that's always seemed plausible to me, honestly, is that
1:30:25I don't think he really wanted this job. I think he wanted to win, but I don't think
1:30:28he wanted the job. I mean, so it's always been plausible to me that knowing that he
1:30:32is a bit of a wild card and likes his life a certain way, I mean, just, you know, first
1:30:36principles, Clarice, like he does not like being in Washington. He goes frickin' golfing
1:30:41every weekend in a different state. Like that's, there's, this job is not suited to his personality.
1:30:48Why so many executive orders?
1:30:49He likes to autograph things and be photographed.
1:30:52That kind of thing he's good at.
1:30:53Like he likes that.
1:30:54And he likes the rallies and the stuff like that.
1:30:57But I don't, I think to say he's gonna get bored,
1:31:00I think would be a little dismissive,
1:31:02but I don't think he likes this job.
1:31:03I don't think he gets to be the kind of person
1:31:05he wants to be in this job.
1:31:06He wants to be liked by people,
1:31:08and he wants to golf a lot.
1:31:10I mean, he basically wants to be a retiree
1:31:12who does a volunteer job.
1:31:14He doesn't wanna do this job.
1:31:16- I think if he can get to a point
1:31:18where in his own worldview,
1:31:22and in the worldview of the people
1:31:23who still are crazy for him,
1:31:27if he can declare that he's made America great again,
1:31:32and it took far less time than anybody ever expected,
1:31:35and then he can just walk off into the,
1:31:38my job is done, America's great again,
1:31:41Pencey here can clean up,
1:31:43can dot the I's and cross the T's.
1:31:46I think that he but I think he's guiding he'd have to you know figure out a way
1:31:52that he and he and at this point he can't say that he hasn't done anything
1:31:55no but the other angle is like you think about his even more common theme
1:32:00nowadays it's how undermined he is yeah I by the media and by these perfidious
1:32:08Republicans and like you know basically he's he's not he's he's a person who
1:32:14isn't sure what to do in the absence of a clear enemy. So, you know, the other, I agree with you,
1:32:21if he can MAGA to his, if he can pound sign MAGA in a way that he can claim victory, sure.
1:32:27And the other thing is, though, he might be able to, like, you know, set his own personal Reichstag
1:32:33fire. He might self-immolate and say like, "Oh, you know, the dishonest media and the, you know,
1:32:38failing New York Times, everybody's undermined me. So, like, I could do better work, like,
1:32:43like going and creating my own TV network.
1:32:45And I could affect some real change in this world.
1:32:48- Yeah, he needs an ally. - But we'll see.
1:32:49- It is curious, he does need an enemy,
1:32:52like it's very clear, and I just saw,
1:32:54I didn't watch all of that,
1:32:55I can't take him in large doses,
1:32:56but I saw that he had a campaign rally,
1:32:58and the fact that it, (laughs)
1:33:0160 days into office, he's holding campaign rallies
1:33:04for an election that was--
1:33:05- My daughter keeps saying he knows he won, right?
1:33:09Like, I think he knows he won.
1:33:10It's still all about Hillary Clinton.
1:33:12- Well, the election was five months ago, almost.
1:33:15And yes, and his rally a night or two ago in Kentucky,
1:33:20I think it was in Louisville, was about Hillary Clinton.
1:33:23And he said something to the effect of,
1:33:25we're gonna protect the Second Amendment,
1:33:27it's gonna be in such good hands,
1:33:29and it wouldn't be if a certain someone else
1:33:32had won this election.
1:33:35And this election is sort of like in the present tense.
1:33:38It's like, dude, that was five months ago.
1:33:40Like that is Hillary Clinton's out wandering the woods.
1:33:44God bless her, I love her.
1:33:47But this election, this guy is crazy.
1:33:50In terms of his need to have an enemy.
1:33:53So I don't know.
1:33:55I don't see it.
1:33:55- Check back in in July.
1:33:57- Yeah, I think so.
1:34:00- I need a holiday party.
1:34:01I need some Brazilian steak.
1:34:03(laughing)