00:00:00 ◼ ► Mark Gurman, so we haven't we've never spoken before right? Yeah, that's right. We haven't spoken before
00:00:05 ◼ ► All right. Yeah for those who don't know mark is what you have a title you just reporter
00:00:26 ◼ ► Since right when the first iPad was announced within give or take a couple weeks of that so early 2010
00:00:36 ◼ ► Only 11 years old. Yes, exactly 11 years old. No, I'm about double that. So 20. Are you really?
00:00:48 ◼ ► You but you started writing professionally for nine-to-five Mac when you were 16 years old
00:01:01 ◼ ► Honestly, I don't even I'm not you know, this shows you how much research I do for the show
00:01:05 ◼ ► Are you in college? Yeah, so I'm a sophomore at the University of Michigan. I'm in my apartment here right now
00:01:13 ◼ ► Yeah, and yet you are and I mean this I'm not just saying it because you're a guest on the show
00:01:24 ◼ ► Really appreciate it today, especially from you. Of course. I mean, I think you're the most influential
00:01:28 ◼ ► So well, but I don't really do reporting and I think that'll make for an interesting conversation, you know
00:01:35 ◼ ► I've even gotten further away from that where I sort of see myself more as a commentator on the reporting of others as opposed to
00:01:55 ◼ ► So I guess you know either way you look at it whether it's original recording or you know original commentary, you know, either is great
00:02:23 ◼ ► having to do with tablets, because I remembered that someone spotted that they registered
00:03:31 ◼ ► Yeah, who I guess he's the what founder of yeah. Yeah publisher nine to five whatever Empire
00:04:01 ◼ ► Breaking news about on you know stuff that's supposed to be secret right? Yeah more or less, right?
00:04:15 ◼ ► Teenagers really I mean and I'm the example I'm thinking of and I hadn't thought of him for a while
00:04:32 ◼ ► See, this is a thing where if you're 20 years old the think secret stuff must seem like ancient history to you
00:04:40 ◼ ► So you were not when that whole thing went down that was that was you weren't you were probably like
00:04:59 ◼ ► Founded in 1998. So that was Eddie that preceded even during fireball by four years and shut down in
00:05:07 ◼ ► 2008 so yeah, I will you know, you must have been somewhat paying attention to the media though if by 2010
00:05:18 ◼ ► But you know, Nick Ciorrelli was you know, really young for most of the run of think secret, you know teenager
00:05:26 ◼ ► And then I think he was at Harvard when this stuff went down with the lawsuit that effectively shut it down, right?
00:05:37 ◼ ► You know, I can't imagine being in his shoes going through, you know, the Apple lawsuit
00:05:47 ◼ ► Well, I don't know. I don't really envy you going to school and being effectively a full-time reporter
00:05:58 ◼ ► I actually worked at the you know, did a lot of writing and editing at the student newspaper
00:06:08 ◼ ► 3,000 other students at Drexel University, whereas you're writing for an audience of I don't know
00:06:16 ◼ ► Readers of 9 to 5 Mac which is remarkable for someone who's you know, like I said still can't even legally buy beer
00:06:27 ◼ ► Why do you think there's anything to that? I don't know to me there is something to the idea of like a truly enthusiastic
00:06:34 ◼ ► Teenager who just has like an obsession with with this sort of stuff getting information
00:06:47 ◼ ► For lack of a better word older and more established reporters aren't getting right even though you're on the outside
00:06:56 ◼ ► No, I'm from Los Angeles. So huh? Well, no, we're even close. Yeah, but still you're still not from the you know
00:07:08 ◼ ► You know, I'm in Philadelphia now and I grew up in outside Philadelphia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah same story for you
00:07:17 ◼ ► I mean starting at the young age that I started at and what Nick think secret started at
00:07:29 ◼ ► like the, for lack of a better term, the 9-5 day job where you get up every morning, do
00:07:43 ◼ ► I mean, it was just something that I really enjoyed and that gave me passion to run after
00:07:49 ◼ ► No one was forcing me to do any of that and that takes a lot of the burden off of me allowing
00:08:03 ◼ ► line for the first iPhone. I was just, you know, so thrilled. And I remember, you know,
00:08:15 ◼ ► old and needing to be preparing for by bar mitzvah, the the rabbi was working with kept
00:08:19 ◼ ► I mean you need to stop watching that iPhone keynote on repeat and get and know your stuff for the
00:08:24 ◼ ► For the big event, so alright, so it wasn't like you were watching it because it was the day of the keynote
00:08:48 ◼ ► I mean people I get that sometimes too where people are sometimes surprised that I'm in Philadelphia and that I'm not in San Francisco
00:08:58 ◼ ► I don't know that it really makes a difference with you know, all of the messaging options you have and you know
00:09:03 ◼ ► Frankly just good old email, right? Well, I can see how if it's a team I can see why teams
00:09:11 ◼ ► Sometimes don't want to have remote workers depending on the style of collaboration and what what exactly the project
00:09:19 ◼ ► I understand I actually understand a lot why Apple doesn't have a lot of remote employees
00:09:24 ◼ ► It's sort of have to get an exception to the rule to be at a remote engineer or designer at Apple
00:09:30 ◼ ► But for the sort of stuff we do writing about them, it really doesn't make that much of a difference
00:09:40 ◼ ► You know, ten years ago this job would have been impossible living outside of the Valley,
00:10:04 ◼ ► And, you know, in a way, doing this job, not sitting with everyone in the same room, you
00:10:10 ◼ ► I mean, I don't really have much to compare to but that's just how I look at it, right?
00:10:14 ◼ ► It would you know, I'm of all the ways that nine-to-five Mac and nine-to-five Google might expand
00:10:20 ◼ ► I'm sure opening an office space for you guys is probably not even on the list because you guys aren't even
00:10:31 ◼ ► I'm the only one on the west coast when I'm home for breaks in the summer everyone else that's in New York
00:10:51 ◼ ► This is one of those things where it's crazy to me because I've been writing Daring Fireball for 12 years
00:10:56 ◼ ► And so that means you were eight years old when I started I don't want to keep banging on your age
00:11:01 ◼ ► No, it's as I'm preparing for this that must mean no tea. I'm guessing from your perception
00:11:12 ◼ ► And what do you is that is that how you see it that there's always been some guy Gruber writes this site during fireball about Apple
00:11:36 ◼ ► Unibody MacBook event and everything turned out remarkably, correct? So I've been following your stuff for a long time and let's uh,
00:11:51 ◼ ► I still feel like during fireball is somewhat new and that's obviously not not the case
00:12:00 ◼ ► But it must be it's just crazy to me to think that you were eight years old when I started
00:12:04 ◼ ► Yeah, that is pretty crazy. I have found though. I have found that and again, I'm not really in the the
00:12:18 ◼ ► And we could talk about that later, but I found though that I developed my best sources
00:12:32 ◼ ► meeting people and it wasn't because I had to meet them face to face to hear the information but it was that
00:12:50 ◼ ► Then you know future information might come in by email or instant message or something like that
00:12:56 ◼ ► But having met them makes a big difference, but I get the feeling you haven't met most of your sources
00:13:02 ◼ ► No, I think I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. I mean, I've been going to these conferences
00:13:25 ◼ ► Yeah. All right. Yeah. And it definitely helps. I think. I mean, like you said, just human
00:13:31 ◼ ► Right, develop some trust. I mean, if you're just talking through instant messages, some
00:13:37 ◼ ► text to another person, you don't really get a good idea if you should trust them or even
00:13:45 ◼ ► like you really get to know them, you can bond with them, and they'll feel more comfortable
00:14:25 ◼ ► is like the granddaddy, I think, of the sort of focus on rumors type stuff. But there was
00:14:33 ◼ ► Think Secret from '98 on, and I forget some of the other ones, but they had such terrible
00:14:38 ◼ ► track records. They still do. And it's a "spaghetti against the wall, see what sticks" approach,
00:14:54 ◼ ► Right, and I always had this idea in the back of my head. Like what would it take to run an
00:15:08 ◼ ► Because it would just drive me nuts to have my name on something that was so wrong, you know wrong and regularly wrong, right?
00:15:15 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean inaccuracy is the worst thing for someone and you know our positions of what we do
00:15:36 ◼ ► Kind of my problem, to your point about rumor sites being wrong, is there seems to be a
00:15:55 ◼ ► have been you—about how it was just spitting spitballs out the wall to see what sticks.
00:16:05 ◼ ► makes all that hard work. I put in other accurate sites, put in like—come out bad like the
00:16:21 ◼ ► I don't forget if it was a mark german scorecard or a nine to five mac in general scorecard, right?
00:16:32 ◼ ► Basically, you know noted that hey, we got all these stories, right perfect track record for 2013
00:16:41 ◼ ► um quote unquote, you know noting or reblogging of stories from other sites into that overall track record, which
00:17:02 ◼ ► People end up saying oh greeber was wrong, even though you're linking to some new york times or something
00:18:14 ◼ ► And you'll say, you'll credit, you'll say, you know, blah, blah, blah, dot fr, a French
00:18:30 ◼ ► You're not saying, it doesn't say, our sources say, it's, you know, this site says this,
00:18:36 ◼ ► that yeah, and to our the to our report lumped all those in with what I believe to be mostly
00:18:42 ◼ ► your work the the you know, Mark Gurman, yeah, reporting for nine to five Mac says, according
00:18:48 ◼ ► to sources, you know, you know, here's a recent example. I don't I probably wasn't on the
00:18:59 ◼ ► in beta health book app from iOS eight. Yeah, it's gonna be like passbook except it's gonna
00:19:05 ◼ ► you know have integration with you know who knows what kind of devices and stuff but did
00:19:15 ◼ ► you not saying you know it didn't come from another site that you reporting with screenshots
00:19:20 ◼ ► and information from you know somehow sources in the know yeah right and that's different
00:20:08 ◼ ► You would see, look, other Apple rumor websites, they can just aggregate everything from anywhere.
00:20:13 ◼ ► Why would anyone read us just for the original content when they can just get the original
00:20:28 ◼ ► words, this is fishy as hell, don't believe it. But people have the right to make their
00:20:42 ◼ ► 2008, 2009, when I posted a few more, I was more commonly posting sort of, I don't know,
00:20:52 ◼ ► I'm not I think I got I got a kicks out of it, but it was the way that I broke rumors if I had something
00:21:07 ◼ ► Apple's gonna rename I forget the old name. What was it called? I tools they're gonna rename it mobile me or something like that, right?
00:21:17 ◼ ► Would do something coy and just be like wouldn't it be something if Apple renamed eye tools mobile me, right?
00:21:23 ◼ ► Yeah, right and got the domain name me calm. Yeah, doesn't that sound like something Apple would do
00:21:36 ◼ ► Got that like the night or two before the W. I think it was a WWDC might have been a Mac
00:21:42 ◼ ► Well, I right sometimes the Macworld Expos and WWDCs blur together. I think it was a WWDC keynote, right? I found out about
00:22:10 ◼ ► Some kind of I don't I think probably the user agent string just said that it was on a Mac
00:22:15 ◼ ► But then the night before when they actually had the real build for it. I found a few ins I was like, oh bingo
00:22:21 ◼ ► So I had it right but I didn't say hey, they're gonna do it. I think I again I said, wouldn't it be?
00:22:30 ◼ ► Yeah, giving a ice water to someone in hell. Yeah, I think one of the former's for engineers
00:22:36 ◼ ► They wrote something about how they used fake user agent, or they routed it through Asia
00:23:02 ◼ ► is developing a CDMA iPhone and you're like, oh, they didn't even know about the retina
00:23:16 ◼ ► only way you can do that is if you build up a reputation for being accurate in the past,
00:23:25 ◼ ► Right. But the thing that I figured out, though, I really did figure out like breaking more
00:24:19 ◼ ► The family includes PDF/Pen for Mac, PDF/Pen for iPad, PDF/Pen for iPhone, and the newest
00:26:39 ◼ ► know me, but I, you know, I happen to know and then insert some kind of blank blank blank scandal,
00:26:44 ◼ ► you know, scandalous rumor here. And you've got to sort of judge, hey, is this thing on the,
00:26:51 ◼ ► you know, not that you would run it just because somebody emailed it to you, but is it even worth
00:26:55 ◼ ► looking into? I mean, I read all the emails and tweets that come in, etc. But I think I do a
00:27:23 ◼ ► I don't run anything from a first-time source ever unless it's corroborated several times
00:27:30 ◼ ► where someone will come out of the woodwork and tell you something and then you know you ask the
00:27:34 ◼ ► people you know you've known for a while you know what's up with this is this true and you know
00:27:38 ◼ ► sometimes you'll get the uh you know the green light and you know there you go but i i found
00:27:44 ◼ ► it i i don't and it was weird there was a couple of years back i got more of it and it seems like
00:27:49 ◼ ► i get less now but i would say at least once a month or so and it wasn't just like one kook it
00:27:53 ◼ ► was you know once a month or so somebody who i've never heard of before would send me email
00:28:04 ◼ ► You know, I'll tell you like an example that I got all that I'm sure I've got some probably
00:28:10 ◼ ► sitting in my inbox on red right now. Is somebody saying that they know for a fact that Apple is
00:28:15 ◼ ► going to ship the next iPhone is going to have a bigger screen, it's going to be inserts size here,
00:28:29 ◼ ► And then it's like, I don't know what they're, you know, and I know that I just know that they're
00:28:32 ◼ ► full of it. Like I got, I've got these last year, like where there were people saying that last
00:28:36 ◼ ► year's iPhone 5s was going to come in two sizes. And I knew that it was, I knew for a fact that it
00:28:41 ◼ ► wasn't. And I always wonder, like, what is with these people? Like, what are they trying to do?
00:28:46 ◼ ► They just trying to like, make a jerk out of me? Like, see if they can get me to go for it? Like,
00:28:50 ◼ ► I don't see what pleasure they would get if I happen to run it or what they think I'm going to do.
00:28:56 ◼ ► Jared: Yeah, it's a great point. I mean, I haven't really put too much thought into that. But of
00:29:00 ◼ ► course, there's, you know, Darren fireball, huge site, huge audience, same with Notify Mac. I mean,
00:29:05 ◼ ► I guess there are some people who might get a thrill out of, you know, sending something
00:29:08 ◼ ► that's totally not true and seeing if it ends up going on the site. You know, yeah, I agree,
00:29:14 ◼ ► I can think of some examples. There's like, and it's always from people who don't put their name
00:29:19 ◼ ► on the email. It's like legohead67@gmail.com. Yeah, I'm just going to run that. It's like,
00:29:30 ◼ ► have you ever read my site? It always strikes me as crazy. But then, who knows? There's
00:29:36 ◼ ► Yeah, and you know the best part, in my opinion, is when this happens, it's very likely that
00:29:58 ◼ ► Yeah, I saw that. I actually saw that last year with some of the screen size stuff where
00:30:02 ◼ ► I saw some second tier sites running at what I think was probably sent by the same person.
00:30:10 ◼ ► I mean, I remember not really an Apple example because I can't really remember a huge Apple
00:31:04 ◼ ► I know you have as well and other reporters in this industry spent so much time building up their brands
00:31:11 ◼ ► Trying to convince people. Oh that you know, not every rumor site is just a rumor site and then another notable site comes out
00:31:18 ◼ ► You know pulls this shtick just you know posts a random rumors and it's all verified and whatnot
00:31:34 ◼ ► But I think it was slash gear ran it and if I'm wrong and it wasn't slash gear my apologies to everybody
00:31:40 ◼ ► at slashgear, but I think it was slashgear, ran it and they ran it with, you know, they worded it
00:31:47 ◼ ► pretty accurately. They were like, look, this is unverified, but we have a source who says blank,
00:31:52 ◼ ► blank and blank about the next Xbox. But as soon as they ran it, it became, other sites picked it
00:32:03 ◼ ► up because then other sites case slashdot or slashgear, not slashdot, slashgear is saying
00:32:08 ◼ ► The xbox has blank blank blank and then all of a sudden that doesn't seem anywhere near as sketchy
00:32:13 ◼ ► Because it's not hey, we have this unverified thing from someone whose name we can't tell you all of a sudden
00:32:19 ◼ ► That's the first hand report. It's that then the second hand reports actually sound better sourced because they say
00:32:30 ◼ ► Sure is saying the xbox has blank and then all of a sudden everybody else and then it just it just pinballs all around the entire
00:32:41 ◼ ► You know tech crunch has something right and there's a few issues there in terms of the industry in general
00:32:51 ◼ ► I don't remember if he was slash gear not reporting something unverified from there to tips box in the first place
00:33:03 ◼ ► You know not taking into account the sketching nature of the original report. Another issue is them not linking out clearly
00:33:13 ◼ ► It would be like if somebody just dropped a sandwich off and at your door, you know, would you eat it? Yeah, right
00:33:24 ◼ ► Yeah, and the whole broken telephone game with the reblogging, you know, you can start off saying oh, you know, this is complete
00:33:32 ◼ ► We don't even trust it. We're just publishing it for discussion and then you know like a few hours later some blog can say oh
00:33:38 ◼ ► Can the reports confirm such-and-such about the new Xbox so it's a shit show out there sometimes. Yeah, totally
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00:36:56 ◼ ► the talk show seven days free my thanks to them so let's get a little specific so here's
00:37:07 ◼ ► you on the show i've had you on craig hockenberry was on a couple weeks ago we were talking
00:37:23 ◼ ► The headline, "Johnny Ive shakes up Apple's software design group, iPhone interface creator
00:37:48 ◼ ► the first sentence of the report is, "Following friction between top human interface vice
00:37:53 ◼ ► president Greg Christie and senior vice president Johnny Ive, Apple's hardware and software
00:37:58 ◼ ► design is being dramatically shaken up according to sources familiar with the matter." So,
00:38:34 ◼ ► from a very reliable source who's provided reliable info for years that Christy was out.
00:39:16 ◼ ► to every single Apple employee, but it was at least announced entirely within the graphic,
00:39:41 ◼ ► the news that he was retiring. Apparently it was open news, and this is what I've heard
00:39:52 ◼ ► apparently it was sort of an open secret there among people who work at Apple and people
00:39:58 ◼ ► who follow it, you know, the writer types who follow it that he'd announce his retirement.
00:40:02 ◼ ► But it was always under the, you know, every discussion about it was off the record. So
00:40:07 ◼ ► there wasn't, it wasn't like anybody knew about it and could have written it, but nobody
00:40:13 ◼ ► Right. I guess it's understandable. I mean, if you hadn't told me the off the record part,
00:40:17 ◼ ► I mean, I guess my response would be if you're a writer and you heard that, you should have
00:40:22 ◼ ► No, it wasn't. Yeah, I don't think anybody had it and just sat on it. But I have to say,
00:40:26 ◼ ► more I dug into this, I've got a surprising amount of pushback from, let's say, informed
00:40:47 ◼ ► you know, I don't have any first-hand information. I mean, I don't even know what the guy looks
00:41:19 ◼ ► But you know there after your report your report came out and then I think the next day
00:41:25 ◼ ► There was a report in the Wall Street Journal. Okay. I had a quote from Apple PR. Yep, and
00:41:45 ◼ ► personality conflict between him and Johnny I've sure from the quote correctly something about like after 20 years Greg Christie is
00:42:00 ◼ ► So yeah, I guess I agree. It's borderline. It's not really a denial nor a confirmation, but you know Apple PR has a
00:42:27 ◼ ► In fact, I would say that the press release that they announced when for stall, you know
00:42:42 ◼ ► Collaboration yeah, you know almost it's not explicit but implicitly is saying that collaboration was you know
00:42:54 ◼ ► So I would put a little you know, but there's clearly though it's in Apple's interests to
00:43:10 ◼ ► Wheeler and dealer like that goes against the public persona that he has and it doesn't serve Johnny Ives interests
00:43:18 ◼ ► And let's just say for this is you know right now for this discussion whether it's true or not sure whatever degree it is
00:43:30 ◼ ► So if it is true if he is this Machiavellian character or has that slant to it and is sort of
00:43:37 ◼ ► Creating a lot of friction in the user as he takes over more authority in the user interface
00:43:45 ◼ ► Design and is pushing people out and if that's to say that you know if it were true that he effectively pushed
00:43:51 ◼ ► Christie out which my report never said right right. That's true. That's very true. You know I and I'll emphasize that
00:44:26 ◼ ► certainly somewhere in the middle. But wherever it is on the shade of gray, really, really light gray,
00:44:31 ◼ ► really dark gray, Apple PR would probably take the exact same response. And the quote that they gave
00:44:39 ◼ ► to the Wall Street Journal probably would have been the same. So it is, what's the word,
00:44:45 ◼ ► Jared: Yeah, I mean, a couple points there. Going back to our early discussion, in terms of the
00:44:50 ◼ ► broken telephone, I mean, my report could say one thing and then another site picks it up and says,
00:45:23 ◼ ► This was in the biography, not Tim Cook, not Phil Schiller, not Scott Forsall back then,
00:45:31 ◼ ► So I don't think it's too much to say or assume, not saying I assume anything, just talking
00:45:38 ◼ ► as an industry watcher here, that you know, Johnny, if he wants something done, he gets
00:45:50 ◼ ► or when Johnny decided that iOS 7 was going to be overhauled with his design aesthetic,
00:45:57 ◼ ► that Greg Christie was on board wanting to do this with him and within Federighi's group,
00:46:02 ◼ ► but over time Johnny really overstepped the bounds there, reaching into the user interface
00:46:09 ◼ ► team, really circumventing Christie's control and speaking to Christie's designers and engineers
00:46:16 ◼ ► and just getting things done without Christie's approval, kind of just like stepping on his
00:46:22 ◼ ► And I guess with 10.10 around the corner with this new design and the whole future of iOS,
00:46:39 ◼ ► providing influence and leadership and guidance to software, but literally putting software
00:46:45 ◼ ► The way I've heard it, and this is from multiple sources, and I think, you know, I think that's
00:47:06 ◼ ► This is from other people actually in, either in, formerly in, or somehow, as they say,
00:47:17 ◼ ► familiar with the matter, but with User Interface Design Group, which used to be, I think, four
00:47:35 ◼ ► I'm not quite sure if iOS and Mac OS 10 were two different groups, but the ones that were
00:47:40 ◼ ► formerly more under Forstall, but like Forstall wasn't really in charge of like the iLife
00:47:53 ◼ ► And who were definitely, there's no doubt in my mind, speaking not on behalf or prompted
00:48:11 ◼ ► there's a certain contingent of people out there who, it doesn't matter what I say, that
00:48:17 ◼ ► they think Apple PR is all-knowing and all-powerful and that they see these conspiracies, and
00:48:51 ◼ ► way I've heard it is it really wasn't friction. I don't think, I think there's certainly a
00:48:54 ◼ ► case to be made that stylistically, Christie may not have been on board with everything
00:49:01 ◼ ► related to the iOS 7 look and feel, but he was not opposed to it. It wasn't like he was
00:49:06 ◼ ► pushed, you know, you know, you know how there's like a lot of people out there who really
00:49:11 ◼ ► just don't like iOS 7 users. And I think that a lot of them read this and they see Christie
00:49:18 ◼ ► Is seeing it their way and that Christie was a like an iOS 7 hater and that is absolutely not true. Yeah
00:49:26 ◼ ► WWDC session talking about it so profoundly and with such knowledge that you know, you can really tell that it was
00:49:38 ◼ ► always went where Christie's group was in the engineering group and in the old days they were under Bertrand and
00:49:50 ◼ ► Forstall right that there was this there wasn't there was never much of a chain of command above
00:49:57 ◼ ► Greg Christie's head at least I mean, I don't know about 18 years ago when he started but in though
00:50:12 ◼ ► And then even when Steve Jobs was dead the only person really above Christie was forced all
00:50:22 ◼ ► So when they announced that shakeup when forced all was out and Johnny I've was taking over
00:50:26 ◼ ► They didn't really change the org chart and yes, Greg Christie officially reported to and I guess I don't know
00:50:33 ◼ ► Maybe he still does I'm not quite sure when that change is going to take but yeah until recently he reported officially to
00:50:49 ◼ ► That that he really reported to Federighi because it's really you know, Federighi, you know, I think he's very popular
00:51:08 ◼ ► We're forced all if anything was more concerned with the design than the engineering even though he came up
00:51:15 ◼ ► you know as a next pro next step programmer and certainly understood the engineering right that
00:51:19 ◼ ► The org chart be damned ever since as soon as forestall was out and Johnny I've was named in charge of software
00:51:27 ◼ ► Greg Christie had been reporting directly to Johnny I've the whole time and that there was no there's really no difference
00:51:34 ◼ ► The only difference with what's been announced recently is making official on the internal org chart
00:51:54 ◼ ► I really do that that after your report and that Apple had to go to the journal and stuff like that and
00:52:08 ◼ ► Distressed by the whole thing because he saw it as so outside the truth that he really it really is the case
00:52:19 ◼ ► But that he's really just a guy who's been there for 20 years and is tired and he's made an awful lot of money and just
00:52:27 ◼ ► You know like for all the people out there who have ever thought hey if I ever made like a couple million bucks and I was
00:52:32 ◼ ► You know or a lot of million bucks and I was you know, I'm not gonna wait till I'm old to enjoy it
00:52:37 ◼ ► Well, I think that's more or less where Greg Christie is but yet he's leaving and it seems like there's you know
00:53:07 ◼ ► I just I think it just stated facts and if people read it a certain way they read it a certain way
00:53:20 ◼ ► Shakeups at Apple in recent years. I mean, I remember Bloomberg had a headline at the end of 2012 like, you know, eddie q fires
00:53:31 ◼ ► I fires Christie over design differences right now and it's you know, but it's the way that people like you said like that the
00:53:38 ◼ ► What's it? What do you say? What's it the broken telephone? Yeah, the broken tell that telephone game where yes, you know
00:53:44 ◼ ► By the second or third telling it becomes a story of conflict and it's really not the case at all
00:53:50 ◼ ► And the examples I heard cited too in terms of like that that there's almost proof that
00:54:23 ◼ ► and talk and let him talk and show the little lab where they'd end up the first version of
00:54:30 ◼ ► The iPhone interface they showed like how they use I thought it was pretty cool the way that they use like
00:54:37 ◼ ► So this was like 2006 while they were working on this they used like a three or four or five year old
00:54:45 ◼ ► To power it so that they'd have a device, you know that the that they couldn't cheat and have a CPU
00:54:51 ◼ ► That was going to be a lot faster than what the iPhone would actually be able to have right really fascinating stuff
00:54:57 ◼ ► It's always interesting in retrospect to see you know looking back about how certain things came to be
00:55:03 ◼ ► But that was actually after like so when Apple, you know clearly let Greg Christie and this is how crazy some people are
00:55:10 ◼ ► Is that I had a couple people write to me at Daring Fireball and say do you think that maybe they pushed?
00:55:20 ◼ ► About the thing that you know that he broke the secret code about how they made the iPhone. I was like no no no
00:55:31 ◼ ► Of course not something that great Christie went nuts and did on his own right and you know to your point about that
00:55:46 ◼ ► There was no identification by Christie at the trial or in any of those stories that you know, he's not in charge anymore
00:55:52 ◼ ► I look back at the Wall Street Journal story clearly says that Christie and still in charge of human interface design at Apple after you know
00:55:59 ◼ ► Working there for a number of years. So you think they would have identified that maybe oh, I'm not quite sure
00:56:06 ◼ ► So like who would have fallen like, you know, Greg Christie identified himself as you know, head of human interface design
00:56:15 ◼ ► Yeah, and prior interviews, so I just found that interesting that he never noted that he's leaving
00:56:20 ◼ ► No, but he but everybody at Apple already knew that he was and the interview. I mean obviously it was you know
00:56:28 ◼ ► As a company that you know, the company's interest in those stories was to sort of emphasize look at the amazing
00:56:40 ◼ ► And it's all in the context of you know, getting the company's side of this fight and Samsung out in the public
00:56:51 ◼ ► Greg Christie is very here's the thing is he's a very popular guy. He's a really really well liked person within Apple
00:57:04 ◼ ► Has had a very like you said if you can't find pictures you can try to find photos of them
00:57:09 ◼ ► It's very hard to find photos of him. He's had a very low profile. Yeah, but he's been hugely influential
00:57:14 ◼ ► You know spent a lot of time working directly with Steve Jobs on whatever, you know pet projects of you know
00:57:29 ◼ ► and a lot of people within Apple who saw him and knew that you know, he's not that well-known that is his his
00:57:43 ◼ ► We're really happy to set that up for him and have this thing where he got a lot more public credit than he's ever gotten
00:57:58 ◼ ► Conflict with Johnny I've and again, like you said you didn't use the word conflict, but clearly though
00:58:03 ◼ ► There's that perception out there now sure in some of the second and third hand reporting that ah, man that stinks and now he's upset
00:58:10 ◼ ► about I mean luckily even the Wall Street Journal heard from their own sources about how
00:58:13 ◼ ► There was disagreements and design direction between Christy and I've so it's not like I'm the only person saying that
00:58:20 ◼ ► Hey there. Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, you know, I've got this I got a loose microphone
00:58:33 ◼ ► Conflict of a design. Yeah, the Wall Street Journal has a line in that story that you mentioned saying that going to you know
00:58:43 ◼ ► Greg Christie and Johnny I didn't always see eye to eye or they had disagreements over the right direction
00:58:48 ◼ ► So yeah, and I think that that's really pretty much how all design works at Apple, right?
00:58:58 ◼ ► Effectively reporting to Steve Jobs, right because Christy worked on the highest profile design stuff because he was you know
00:59:05 ◼ ► The top of the heap and you know, it's not like every single pixel of every thing goes went through Steve Jobs
00:59:14 ◼ ► You know, that's where you know better call Christy and do you really think you know, does anybody think that there weren't disagreements?
00:59:21 ◼ ► So for this, you know colors or font sizes or any detail working with Steve, you know, that's just the way it is
00:59:29 ◼ ► I mean Apple, a lot of people who are really just in love with the company, they seem to
00:59:40 ◼ ► I mean the classic story of Steve Jobs pinning forestall against Tony Fidell against each
00:59:54 ◼ ► Literally change the entire technology world and so many other industries if they weren't competing against something
01:00:07 ◼ ► I saw in the light of all this stuff and again a lot of credit to you because you're the one who broke that
01:00:12 ◼ ► Christie's leaving but they got a lot I saw a lot of stuff on Twitter from readers who are saying that they're worried
01:00:17 ◼ ► About the whole direction of Apple software under Johnny I've you know, this doesn't sound good
01:00:24 ◼ ► Think that what you would worry me is if I heard stories that there weren't arguments about
01:00:30 ◼ ► This stuff because if if nobody's arguing then nobody's really trying to push it forward. That's fair, right? I
01:00:40 ◼ ► In light of the Christie story, I mean if people didn't like iOS 7 design or their concern about I've those comments should have came
01:00:47 ◼ ► What is it 10 9 months ago already? And I mean, I'm sure there there were lots of comments
01:02:54 ◼ ► Sure, and to that i'd say that they had a absolutely massive opportunity to get that information out there
01:03:08 ◼ ► Yeah, they could have gotten that information out there if they wanted to they could have made it national news
01:03:13 ◼ ► Yeah, I have to wonder why they didn't why they didn't say that I don't know if it has something
01:03:26 ◼ ► You know perhaps one foot on his you know upcoming yacht or whatever. He's gonna do. I don't know
01:03:33 ◼ ► And you know who knows it could have been one of those things where maybe they were like 51% one way
01:03:40 ◼ ► 59% the other like kind of had it written two ways and then at the last minute like yeah
01:03:51 ◼ ► The way they thought it should have played they're like god damn it. We should have you know, we should have announced it
01:03:56 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean I wonder if Christie is who you know, everyone is making him out to be which I don't know such a you know
01:04:04 ◼ ► Amazing figure inside the company, you know, the 51% probably should have leaned the other way, you know
01:04:09 ◼ ► Yeah, if anything what I've heard is that he's got along better with Johnny I've then then, you know
01:04:15 ◼ ► For stall. Yeah, I think so. I mean, that's probably not too surprising and I think it's mostly Johnny's personality
01:04:23 ◼ ► You know and again and it's one of those things where who knows what they disagreed with in terms of hey
01:04:33 ◼ ► You know all week long and not come to an agreement and eventually Johnny might have to say, you know what?
01:04:41 ◼ ► That's just that's just working at Apple and doing design but that they actually got along swimmingly and consider themselves
01:04:49 ◼ ► Let me take a final break here and thank thank our last sponsor and then we'll get back and we'll talk about a couple other
01:04:58 ◼ ► And it's our good friends at back blaze. You guys know back blaze. They're longtime sponsors of this show
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01:06:35 ◼ ► You know destroyed by a same fire water link above that your desk or something like that
01:06:57 ◼ ► So Mac OS 10.10, which I think is what they're gonna call it. Yes, they're gonna number it
01:07:03 ◼ ► I've heard the same thing. In fact, it's you know, it's a done deal. Yeah, it's already
01:07:35 ◼ ► 10.10 and they're calling it C raw after the the wine internally. I have no idea what the
01:07:44 ◼ ► And I don't know the names like that are probably the best and tightest held secrets at Apple because I don't I think that there's no
01:07:53 ◼ ► You know like you know like them, you know, you're talking about like the last one is Mavericks
01:08:01 ◼ ► There's no reason for that sort of thing to go outside a very very tight circle. Absolutely
01:08:07 ◼ ► You know probably like Schiller and Johnny I've you know at that level because at the you know
01:08:34 ◼ ► versions of Mac OS X were like the shift from PowerPC to Intel because everything had to be recompiled and all sorts of
01:08:53 ◼ ► really really big stuff like at a nerdy computer science study how the operating system level works and
01:09:06 ◼ ► We're really working on you know, the behind-the-scenes stuff. So they gave it a name, you know, the previous version was leopard
01:09:13 ◼ ► They said we're gonna call it snow leopard because it's leopard with you know, not many new features
01:09:18 ◼ ► This because it looks new I think they're gonna give it a big push marketing wise as being new even if
01:09:29 ◼ ► Sure, Yosemite's my guess because I don't know what else, you know to me. It's the biggest that's a great name, too
01:09:37 ◼ ► In terms of like Yosemite being big and it's well known and it's pretty dramatic and that goes well with what the redesign is gonna
01:09:51 ◼ ► You always think of it in your head as like a sunset like a new beginning type of thing
01:09:54 ◼ ► Yeah, now I could see Malibu the only thing is like I can't see them going back to a beach after Mavericks
01:10:05 ◼ ► I'm sure somebody's gonna listen to this episode and they're gonna say John Gruber says that the new version of Mac OS X will be
01:10:14 ◼ ► I'm telling you those of you whoever you are out there who's already typing the headline into your wordpress.com
01:10:20 ◼ ► Front end I'm totally guessing nobody. I don't know anybody who would tell me anything like that
01:10:31 ◼ ► Like you said it's what did they the internal code names are named after like wine? Yeah
01:12:00 ◼ ► app windows are slightly rounded, they're getting rid of that so everything's more squared
01:12:08 ◼ ► I think they're going to decrease the shade of metal across the OS quite a bit, more white
01:12:24 ◼ ► I'm really curious to see how it goes, because like I said, in a nutshell, everybody seems
01:12:38 ◼ ► And you know, there's the lack of shadows and the transparency thing is another thing where you really and like wind
01:12:46 ◼ ► Was it Vista or was it I think it was Vista where they went overboard with the transparency
01:12:52 ◼ ► But it really when you have overlapping windows the transparency becomes an unreadable mess if it's too transparent
01:12:59 ◼ ► Right, like it works on iOS 7. I think because you never have more than one thing stacked on a time
01:13:07 ◼ ► so like when you bring up one transparent thing like by sliding up from the bottom to get the
01:13:11 ◼ ► What's that called activity view or what's it what's the thing you slide up from the bottom on what iOS yeah control center control center
01:13:21 ◼ ► It works because it's only over one thing right whereas that sort of you know, frosted glass
01:13:27 ◼ ► Look, you can't just have a bunch of windows with that floating over each other, right? You can't read anything
01:13:32 ◼ ► So I'm curious how they're gonna do it and I'm really curious how they're gonna handle shadows because I was seven doesn't really have any and
01:13:38 ◼ ► The current Mac OS X look and I think this is one of those things that hasn't really changed all the way back to Mac OS
01:14:05 ◼ ► Right, like I always notice that if you take a screenshot on OS X of a window and you just open up like in Quick
01:14:11 ◼ ► Look or whatever, you can see that huge huge shadow. It's like an inch, right? It's yeah, it's humongous.
01:14:31 ◼ ► But yet there's these shadows that make it look as though they're all an inch apart and yet there's no
01:14:43 ◼ ► Like removing shadows would be you know more detrimental on the Mac where lots of people still use it with multiple windows open simultaneously
01:14:52 ◼ ► See you lap at a time and I guess if OS 10 was the same way shadows wouldn't be as important there
01:15:03 ◼ ► would look like, and a lot of people pointing to the iCloud.com, they did that last year.
01:15:09 ◼ ► I think iCloud.com is basically a web-based replication of the iPad apps, and that's always
01:15:39 ◼ ► And the timing doesn't work out either because the iCloud.com apps have had that look for
01:15:52 ◼ ► that's the timeline where I feel like they were really hammering away on the fundamentals of what this
01:16:06 ◼ ► Yeah, and from what I've heard like the design of 10.10 is really iterated a lot the last few months
01:16:11 ◼ ► So like you said it wouldn't make sense look like I cloud calm seeing they did I cloud calm like alongside
01:16:18 ◼ ► 7 in last September and now nearly a year later. It's not going to look the same that would make sense
01:16:25 ◼ ► I mean that's you know, if there's any if there's any one word that describes the Apple design process its iterations for sure that
01:16:50 ◼ ► But when you when you wrote about Mac OS 10.10 having this iOS 7 look and feel you included with the story a mock-up
01:16:59 ◼ ► And not one that you commissioned but like here's here's some guy on the Internet's idea of what an iOS 7
01:17:08 ◼ ► Another example and again, this isn't you but there's other sites ours does it everybody does it was somebody says
01:17:15 ◼ ► rumor comes out that the new iPhone is going to have edge-to-edge glass, no bezel along the side.
01:17:26 ◼ ► And then there will be a picture of a mock-up of an iPhone with edge-to-edge glass, but it's not a
01:17:34 ◼ ► mock-up from the source, it's just we went out, we had to have, we had to have an illustration for
01:17:49 ◼ ► Journalism critic because to me it's like you have a good story and it's an interesting source
01:17:55 ◼ ► But then you've illustrated it with something that's just pulled out of the air. Yeah, I see what you're saying
01:18:15 ◼ ► But I do think illustration is extremely important and also to be extremely honest if I had an exact idea of what?
01:18:22 ◼ ► 10.10 would have looked like I would have had my own mock-up made that would be you know
01:18:27 ◼ ► Pretty close the real thing because I have been doing that right for several years when I know exactly how something's gonna look
01:18:38 ◼ ► I mean I did this with the retina MacBook Pro in 2012 all the iOS stuff the last couple of years didn't you do?
01:18:47 ◼ ► Yes, we also did that with the iOS 7 icons last year before yeah, and they came out pretty good
01:18:58 ◼ ► Here's the guy who robbed the 7-eleven and they catch him and you look and like hey, that's actually a pretty good sketch
01:19:16 ◼ ► the design of the icons a couple weeks before WWDC, we would have had stellar mock-ups that
01:19:36 ◼ ► like a sources scene, then when you do this, like, where you'll just say, "Well, I don't
01:19:40 ◼ ► have that, but here's some other guy's, you know, guess as to what it could look like."
01:19:50 ◼ ► And I know, because I, you know, this circles back to like what we were talking about at
01:19:54 ◼ ► the very beginning. I read your stuff very, very closely, and I note the exact words that
01:20:02 ◼ ► Right you include that screenshot with your story and most people are going to who see it are going to think that's supposed to be
01:20:12 ◼ ► It was a mix of iOS 8 stuff and 10 points and all the ios 8 stuff those mock-ups and images up there
01:20:29 ◼ ► I would say hearing a lot. I mean the big feature is gonna be the health book, which is
01:20:33 ◼ ► Basically pass book for your health. It's gonna aggregate lots of data like blood sugar
01:20:38 ◼ ► Calories burned other fitness statistics. Yeah, but for most people it's not gonna have the blood sugar
01:20:45 ◼ ► It's not gonna have my blood sugar because it's not gonna be able to read my blood sugar the phone
01:20:49 ◼ ► It was course not it's gonna work with the I mean the big question here is is it gonna work with some Apple hardware?
01:21:01 ◼ ► It I mean, I think the most likely scenario for the very imminent future would be hooking up to the plethora of health
01:21:18 ◼ ► They had that demo of the I don't I think it was a glucose blood sugar checker on stage
01:21:24 ◼ ► And that was a huge deal and now there's Wi-Fi based scales blood pressure checkers all sorts of stuff
01:21:40 ◼ ► I don't want to go on too much longer, but we can talk about the the wearable rumors and stuff
01:21:44 ◼ ► And so clearly there's an awful lot of rumors that Apple is going to come out with some devices that are you know?
01:21:51 ◼ ► Some sort of fitness health monitoring type stuff and they've made hiring they've hired people with backgrounds and that sort of thing
01:21:58 ◼ ► So it certainly wouldn't at this point shock anybody if Apple came out with a peripheral
01:22:12 ◼ ► But I think a lot of this stuff though is going to be left to third parties and you know
01:22:20 ◼ ► So if you're you know, if you have diabetes, that's a huge deal, right, but they're gonna leave that to
01:22:25 ◼ ► Medical companies and then let I you know more or less like what the App Store is to apps and yeah
01:22:43 ◼ ► Sure that they're happy to let thousands and thousands of developers fill in all those gaps and I feel like it'll be the same way
01:23:18 ◼ ► Right, and even the design of the application, the name, Health Book, the icon, it all screams
01:23:23 ◼ ► Passbook for Health. I mean, it's literally a duplicate of Passbook, but with health statistics,
01:23:28 ◼ ► health data. So I think it's pretty clear that it's going to be an aggregator, at least
01:23:37 ◼ ► Do you wonder whether that is like a stand-in for pre-release? Because it looked... The
01:23:45 ◼ ► One thing that struck me about it is it looked so much like Passbook, it almost looked confusingly
01:23:59 ◼ ► I thought that it was extremely polished compared to the other stuff regarding iOS 8 that I've
01:24:28 ◼ ► But at the time that you had the screenshots, that was what the app was intended to look
01:24:56 ◼ ► I would say, yeah, I heard a bunch of stuff besides the health book, improved maps app,
01:25:02 ◼ ► polished up data, better views of where streets are, and of course the transit mode, which
01:25:16 ◼ ► so we'll see if transit will make it to the I've heard that transit is extremely hard because it's
01:25:34 ◼ ► Municipal transit authority should put the transit info on the web. It's just it's almost like back to the days
01:25:42 ◼ ► Before RSS feeds where people had to screen scrape HTML and parse the HTML and every site's HTML was different
01:26:03 ◼ ► you pretty much have to do individually because everybody reports the data differently.
01:26:06 ◼ ► Right. And it's not like Apple went out and just created or took all this data for itself.
01:26:11 ◼ ► This is a direct, what it seems on the surface to be just similar to what they did before,
01:26:15 ◼ ► acquired a bunch of companies and data sources and they're mixing it up all together. And
01:26:20 ◼ ► I think that at this point, following the, I guess, disaster of iPhone, iOS 6 maps, launched
01:26:26 ◼ ► in 2012 is they'd rather pull the feature, even though they're testing it now, than launch
01:26:44 ◼ ► More timeless look like away from trendiness and even though it sounds ridiculous because flat design
01:27:01 ◼ ► a more timeless style and maybe it went too flat I said I think I think maybe they'll dial back in a little bit more texture
01:27:37 ◼ ► Although the 5c, you know, obviously is its own unique thing, but that the unique in many ways
01:27:43 ◼ ► Yeah, but the the ones with the you know more rectangular corners and this metal frame around the sign
01:28:03 ◼ ► To the software what the iPhone 4 shape was to the hardware couldn't agree more. I mean
01:28:10 ◼ ► All indications from I always say it's just gonna be tweaks here and there to the user interface, but nothing in terms of the overall
01:28:19 ◼ ► Of course, they're gonna fix up, you know, the screw-ups in the voice memos app in terms of it being confusing
01:28:24 ◼ ► Simplified notification center a bit but no nothing to move away from the this aesthetic
01:28:31 ◼ ► Yeah, they did a lot of that with iOS 7.1 really I mean and it's just one of those little things where they've got to
01:28:42 ◼ ► Shipping schedule as the hardware and if right because the hardware had to have iOS 7, you know
01:28:47 ◼ ► And whatever new phones and iPads they have coming out this year are going to be running iOS 8
01:28:54 ◼ ► There's like they're gonna be devices that can't boot iOS 7. That's how it is every year
01:28:58 ◼ ► Of course, so there had to be something called iOS 7 that shipped in September because that's when the iPhones came out. I
01:29:04 ◼ ► Think that iOS 7.1 if iOS it was just software only and Apple didn't do their own hardware
01:29:17 ◼ ► Yeah, it's not just about bugs. But also that they like you said they cleared up a lot of
01:29:24 ◼ ► Ambiguities for sure. Absolutely. I mean you can see how much care really went into the move from 7 to 7.1 in terms of design
01:29:32 ◼ ► I mean forget the new more rounded slider and power offline, but even if you go into the weather app, I mean something as
01:29:47 ◼ ► Those have been changed immensely as well. So just a small thing that shows the level of detail. Yeah, I'm almost surprised
01:29:54 ◼ ► I think they had to I think they felt like they had to because they know that I was seven because it was so much
01:29:58 ◼ ► And so little time that you know that they really needed to dig in and do a pretty significant point one release
01:30:11 ◼ ► Surprise because it took so long because it clearly was eating into the time where iOS 8 development was ramping up
01:30:22 ◼ ► They don't have much time from when they ship iOS 7 to where they've really got to have most of their engineers working
01:30:32 ◼ ► Right and you can see the shift there like every year the the fewer major point updates iOS like
01:31:10 ◼ ► Apple's calendar schedule for the rest of the year, you know, I actually that's something I wanted to talk about and I
01:31:16 ◼ ► Believe it was the second quarter the third quarter earnings call last year Tim Cook said hey
01:31:35 ◼ ► And here we are here. We are mid-april nothing or end of april almost and not a word not even
01:31:46 ◼ ► They had a January event in New York for ebooks and education right and it was sort of a one-off. They've never followed it up
01:32:19 ◼ ► In this year, they just didn't say anything it is just let it go they've just let that that late March
01:32:28 ◼ ► Early February or February and March timeframe where for a couple of years they were announcing new iPads
01:32:33 ◼ ► They've just let it go without announcing anything like I kind of thought months ago if they had new
01:32:43 ◼ ► That that would be the time when they would do it because they've moved the iPads to the fall
01:32:55 ◼ ► And I was thinking that the, I mean, I know that an Apple TV was planned for introduction
01:33:06 ◼ ► But I mean, with Tim Cook saying that there's going to be new stuff across 2014, including
01:33:12 ◼ ► a new product category at some point during the year, you know, something had to go wrong.
01:33:23 ◼ ► New products across 2014. Yeah it or well, I wonder I'm maybe something slipped or maybe
01:33:30 ◼ ► It's you know, we know the date for WWDC. It's the first week of June right that still leaves plenty of room
01:33:41 ◼ ► Hardware announcements at WWDC not just software announcements. Yeah, and I think that's a given at this point
01:33:47 ◼ ► I mean that I don't know though given for what announcing what kind of hardware laptops at the very?
01:33:58 ◼ ► Not that they have to not that they're going to but that to sort of hit that that definition of announcing new products across the year
01:34:06 ◼ ► It has to be more than just updated MacBook Airs or MacBook Pros could be the best could be the watch, you know
01:34:23 ◼ ► The supply chain that they can't they just can't keep it secret weeks in advance anymore, right?
01:34:30 ◼ ► But you know, I thought before in theory what if they you know announced a new iPhone then what if the iPhone
01:34:37 ◼ ► You know how like the two years ago they came out doing the first iPads with the retina displays the iPad 3 and then six
01:34:44 ◼ ► Months later. They said here's the iPad 4 with a retina display and you know a better a a6 processor, right?
01:34:51 ◼ ► I mean that does make sense in terms of the recent talk about how there is the 4.7 inch model on the 5.5
01:35:10 ◼ ► But there's no promise that you get it that if you bought your iPhone 5s on day 1 right that you are going to get
01:35:19 ◼ ► This is the top-of-the-line iPhone, right? Yeah, of course. I mean, but I don't know Apple TV could be a WWDC announcement, too
01:35:32 ◼ ► I'm just pulling stuff out of my hat and thinking what they could announce the only thing I know about
01:35:41 ◼ ► Engineers working on Apple TV like pressure type of engineers who there's no way that they're working on
01:35:48 ◼ ► The Apple TV as we know it, you know course simple little up down left right select thing
01:35:58 ◼ ► I mean whether it's something that's coming this year or later or I don't know but could be two different products
01:36:09 ◼ ► SDK iOS I mean look at the Apple TV interface is still stuck in the four cell days as well
01:36:15 ◼ ► So, you know, they need updates on both sides of the coin. Okay, you know and having been at
01:36:27 ◼ ► You know and I linked to a couple of pieces today from Brent Simmons and Justin Williams about how
01:36:39 ◼ ► Where in so many ways it looked like WWDC and then so many, you know, then you just see oh my god
01:36:54 ◼ ► But there I forget if they're calling them universal apps or whatever they're calling them
01:37:06 ◼ ► Xbox now obviously the interface is totally different, but it's the same, you know developer tools and API's
01:37:13 ◼ ► for shared stuff. So the stuff that could be shared is shared. But the thing that got me was that, you know,
01:37:21 ◼ ► they're really, really, you know, right now Microsoft with the Xbox One and the current runtime and their developer tools
01:37:26 ◼ ► is pushing, hey, you can write apps that run in people's living rooms on their Xbox One, you know, that's a ship that's taking off.
01:37:36 ◼ ► Yeah, for sure. And the living room opens up so many different opportunities for apps, too.
01:37:40 ◼ ► That just makes me think you know and if they're gonna do it if part of the story of a next generation
01:37:49 ◼ ► You know that if it's a TV with an integrate the actual TV set with an integrated thing
01:37:53 ◼ ► Or it's a separate box that you plug in doesn't matter if it has has to do with apps and third-party apps in an app store
01:38:00 ◼ ► WWDC is the time to do it. Yeah, because there's no other you know, they have to wait another year
01:38:05 ◼ ► Otherwise, I mean not that they would that they couldn't release it in October and just release the developer info is stuff on the web
01:38:20 ◼ ► They're not going to just have a keynote for iOS 8 which is not that big of an update and a new operating system
01:38:41 ◼ ► You know how you're gonna get your apps to take advantage of the new look and still, you know run on Mac OS
01:38:50 ◼ ► But the truth is the Mac and it you know in the Mac's a great business and I really do think Apple's heart is in
01:39:00 ◼ ► It has to be iOS or has to be a new product right for sure and like you said even like psychologically
01:39:12 ◼ ► Because it's just not big enough business really isn't not that that won't get good time and that you know
01:39:17 ◼ ► That they're not proud of it and it it certainly means a lot to the people who were in the room at WWDC
01:39:26 ◼ ► Using max to develop their apps where they're writing Mac software iOS software. Absolutely, but it's just not big enough
01:39:33 ◼ ► Will you be there at a WWDC this year? Uh, I expect to be yeah cool. Yeah, I'll be there too
01:39:39 ◼ ► I mean, I don't have a ticket or a press pass or anything, but I'll be there during the week. So
01:39:43 ◼ ► Yeah, well then you will have to get together. So that's a good question. I was gonna ask about that
01:39:49 ◼ ► So you do you you've never gotten a press pass for the Apple event? I haven't only not gonna gotten a press pass
01:40:05 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've caught you ask do you ask each time like every time WDC gets announced you do you try to you know?
01:40:21 ◼ ► For that or stories. I mean I asked them for comment on the Greg Christie story and they gave the comment to
01:40:29 ◼ ► Don't know. I don't know, you know, but it doesn't seem like they really interact with the Apple
01:40:43 ◼ ► But I mean I'd be more concerned or more I guess I don't know if obsessed the right word because I probably wouldn't be upset
01:41:44 ◼ ► under. But it was really, you know, like the first iPhone I think only went to like four
01:41:49 ◼ ► four writers, four or five. Yeah, Kogan, his famous video. And they were all had roots in print,
01:41:56 ◼ ► you know, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, USA Today. And it seemed like they had a
01:42:00 ◼ ► moment like where I started getting like I had press passes back then, but then I never had
01:42:05 ◼ ► review units of anything. And then they really opened up and started giving a lot more review
01:42:11 ◼ ► Units and the you know off-the-record briefings that go with them right not just to me. It wasn't like they elevated me
01:42:23 ◼ ► Review unit from Apple. Was it the iPhone 4 or 4s? Just kind of thing in the timeline. It's an excellent question. I
01:42:45 ◼ ► Think I could be wrong, but I think that this is one of those things where my memory shot
01:42:56 ◼ ► it worked out that I could just swing down to Cupertino and get a briefing and sign all the NDA's and pick it up and
01:43:05 ◼ ► Have it but otherwise I would have gone like from Philly up to New York because they they went you know
01:43:14 ◼ ► But I think I'm almost certain that the that was when it started and I think I've gotten a review unit of every
01:43:20 ◼ ► iOS device since and right if I missed anything, it wasn't anything major, right? Right. Right. Yeah
01:43:28 ◼ ► Your reviews are always interesting three. I love how like the embargo lifts at a certain time and then you just post yours up
01:43:34 ◼ ► Three hours later or the next day and everyone just jumps to read your opinion. I always try I try I
01:43:40 ◼ ► Try to get I try to hit the embargo deadline, but I I never do. I'm really terrible with that
01:43:47 ◼ ► I mean like who cares at this point, but I know but I think some people think I do it on purpose now that I
01:44:05 ◼ ► I'd be like, why am I reading and it wasn't like I was in trouble. There's no there is absolutely no
01:44:11 ◼ ► Hey, you know there's there's a rule that says you cannot publish before nine o'clock on Thursday Pacific time
01:44:22 ◼ ► I just think though that everybody else wants to publish right away that it never occurred to them that someone would
01:44:33 ◼ ► They were just confused and wanted to make sure everything was alright. What's wrong with our phone? Yeah, right
01:44:42 ◼ ► Think that's interesting. I mean, it'll be interesting to see which direction they go into
01:44:48 ◼ ► It really seems like it's gonna be a medical appliance or have a medical medical. I think meta
01:45:03 ◼ ► I don't think it would be far-fetched to think that, hey, the watch is going to be your media,
01:45:13 ◼ ► I mean the hires, in terms of those from the medical space, it's really been a thing across
01:45:21 ◼ ► You know, how the Apple product cycles work, I mean the iPhone was in the works two and
01:45:36 ◼ ► device that does everything their newly hired engineers are capable of creating this year
01:45:50 ◼ ► It could be just a few medical things here and there, some cool maps functionality, getting
01:45:56 ◼ ► your notifications and then over time they could you know of all the product to be something
01:46:03 ◼ ► I do think and a couple people have been writing about it recently that it it doesn't seem
01:46:08 ◼ ► to add up financially to be an iPhone or I even iPad style business now because iPhones
01:46:19 ◼ ► from Apple's perspective accounting wise sell for six five six seven eight hundred dollars
01:46:24 ◼ ► Yeah, you don't pay that when you go to the carrier, but the carrier pays Apple like you buy a new 5s
01:46:46 ◼ ► I don't think you can sell a thing you wear on your wrist for five six seven hundred dollars or you could sell it
01:46:51 ◼ ► But it wouldn't be it wouldn't sell to enough people right? It all right. There's this ridiculous talk of the
01:46:57 ◼ ► Thousands of dollars for the I watch. I mean, yeah, yes, that makes sense if it's gold or platinum-plated or something
01:47:06 ◼ ► No, I was going back and forth with some people on Twitter the other day about it and somebody else I forget who but some
01:47:11 ◼ ► Reader, you know type to chimed in and said sure lots of companies sell thousand dollar watches multi-thousand dollar watches
01:47:22 ◼ ► Four or five thousand dollar watch or even two or three thousand dollar watch from Rolex or Omega
01:47:30 ◼ ► You're expecting to have a watch that you're gonna own for the rest of your life and that you can pass on to your children
01:47:41 ◼ ► It's gonna be even better than it was right because if you had like your grandfather's Rolex and it still keeps great time
01:47:55 ◼ ► I mean, whatever the thing is three or four years from now things gonna be in everybody's desk drawer because it's gonna be three or
01:48:00 ◼ ► Four-year-old technology. Yeah. Yeah, probably be useless by them too. I mean if you look at the Apple update cycle
01:48:07 ◼ ► What is it 3gs at this point? All right, I mean useless you mean again any latest software?
01:48:17 ◼ ► Pricing I really do and I for sure I also feel like maybe the thing that we're all overlooking
01:48:22 ◼ ► It's just the way that like the iPhone came out and had all these sensors that just nobody had ever really thought of before
01:48:29 ◼ ► But that all together it was like a proximity sensor so that the phone goes off when you hold it up to your face to
01:48:41 ◼ ► Colorometer right and you know and they had the super monkey balls game right there on day one in the App Store taking advantage of it
01:48:47 ◼ ► Coolest thing ever but now it's like a nothing right but it was the combination and you know that you could put on
01:48:53 ◼ ► Any one of them maybe wouldn't be all that expensive and wouldn't be all that amazing, but you put
01:48:58 ◼ ► four five six of these sensors in a device that you put on your wrist and all of a sudden maybe you do kind of
01:49:18 ◼ ► Technology that nobody's thinking of like these devices that like Samsung's putting out that are like just take a take a 2014
01:49:25 ◼ ► Cellphone and shrink it to two inches and put it on your wrist is got to be the wrong way of thinking about for sure
01:49:36 ◼ ► Samsung design tumblr.com. Yeah, I mean it took me admittedly like a minute to think about like why is this website playing?
01:49:50 ◼ ► That's all I did is last night. I tweeted I just I didn't have any context to it all I wrote
01:49:55 ◼ ► I just pasted the URL and I think am I getting it right is it's done a quick look it up
01:50:00 ◼ ► Sorry anybody listening and see it. I don't think I've that made. Yeah, Samsung design tumbler.com
01:50:06 ◼ ► And then you go there and it just said I don't know who did this. It's not me, but it's brilliant. It just says
01:50:12 ◼ ► Original designs by Samsung this blog is dedicated to showcase all the innovative and original designs by Samsung
01:50:20 ◼ ► And then it says there are no posts yet. And did you see which Apple employee favorited that I did
01:50:37 ◼ ► Or something named Phil Schiller favored it from his Twitter account. Yeah, how did you spot that?
01:50:43 ◼ ► That was that's a good might be a good way to end the show that the thing that got me the thing that made me
01:50:48 ◼ ► Interesting about that. It wasn't that Schiller favorited my tweet. It was that you saw that Schiller favorited my tweet
01:50:54 ◼ ► Oh in the Twitter apps and tweets a car went off. There's an activity tab. It shows you all that kind of stuff
01:50:59 ◼ ► Yeah, but what made you look no activity tab is like it's like a stream of people following favoriting
01:51:14 ◼ ► Well, Mark Gurman, thank you for being on the show. Thanks for having me. It was great. Yeah
01:51:20 ◼ ► I've got to have you back but everybody can follow your your reporting and nine-to-five Mac where you are senior editor
01:51:36 ◼ ► Do I not follow you? Yeah, when you DM me I couldn't reply says oh shit. Why didn't you tell me?
01:51:49 ◼ ► Everybody else as you listen, you should do the same thing mark German. Here we go follow
01:52:00 ◼ ► I just assumed that I was following you. Yeah, but now yeah, I mean, I'm very similar to Gruber it's gonna be
01:52:09 ◼ ► What's your team Phillies Yankees? Oh the Yankees Yankees. Sorry, but uh, I don't know if you like basketball and Apple