00:00:15 ◼ ► I'm not one for corniness, but I mean this to everybody out there listening. I hope everybody's alright
00:00:21 ◼ ► It's more stressful than it has been in a long time because of the uncertainty don't you think yes, that's 100% it
00:00:49 ◼ ► or one of the major school systems doesn't even have mask mandates most of them do fortunately and
00:00:59 ◼ ► She made appointments for them for the end of next week with the hope that there will be an announcement
00:01:04 ◼ ► By then that people who are older will be able to go ahead and get a booster because right now the guidelines are if you're
00:01:17 ◼ ► They like go ahead and and the CDC has approved it but she's just kind of waiting I guess for that next level
00:01:23 ◼ ► They're saying eight months and she would be a little bit before then but just trying to kind of figure out
00:01:28 ◼ ► Well, are they saying eight months because that's when it's safe or is it because that's like a supply constraint
00:01:37 ◼ ► immuno compromised I had an aunt who had MS for decades and yes, she'd never had a transplant but took similar
00:01:51 ◼ ► Mitigating the symptoms of MS. It's also stressful. It's like overall the situation is better
00:02:15 ◼ ► It almost feels worse because you're right. It is better than it was at like the worst parts of the pandemic
00:02:24 ◼ ► assimilate and go back to normal and now we're in this period where not only do we have the uncertainty that I agree with you
00:02:31 ◼ ► but then you have this added stress of the PTSD that we all have of remembering what it was before and
00:02:37 ◼ ► We were just doing more normal things now. Can we can we not like it? It's shitty. Yeah, I'm
00:02:49 ◼ ► Good health and they listen they read the news. They do what's recommended. They say you should wear masks. They wear masks
00:02:56 ◼ ► They say you should get vaccinated. They signed up as soon as they could but I'm worried about them
00:03:19 ◼ ► You're more likely to catch it and if you do you're still significantly more likely to have a bad run of it
00:03:52 ◼ ► Well, yes, I joke and I know it's it's not a joking matter, but it is I've said to my wife
00:04:01 ◼ ► It's like it is bizarre how much time I have spent thinking about child pornography in the last month
00:04:12 ◼ ► I did not want this. This is so upsetting the whole thing. Well, we'll get to that in a bit
00:04:21 ◼ ► Is there anything fun? Yeah, let's let's try to think about something that is actually pleasant
00:04:43 ◼ ► Exacerbated so for anybody who's listening far in the future and who doesn't remember the saga of?
00:05:07 ◼ ► In fairly different ways, I guess the iPad and Mac interfaces as proposed were a little bit more
00:05:24 ◼ ► Especially on iPhone in particular there were some aspects of what was announced at WWDC that without rehashing all of what?
00:05:43 ◼ ► Think the ideas were maybe good. I think the execution initially flawed, but I understand where the thinking came from
00:06:19 ◼ ► I would say the the most glaring hole in the iPhone lineup right now is that the only way to get a truly big?
00:06:32 ◼ ► Which is very very expensive, and it's heavy and at you're paying for the highest quality camera
00:06:43 ◼ ► Whatever next year's phone is going to be if this year's the 12 s maybe next year's the 13
00:06:53 ◼ ► That there's going to be a big-ass phone the phones are getting bigger people like big phones people are doing
00:06:59 ◼ ► Way more if not all of their personal computing on their phones, so why not right why not?
00:07:06 ◼ ► Put more of the controls towards the bottom of the screen because the top of the screen is hard to hard
00:07:17 ◼ ► No, I mean and and as somebody who for many years was totally against the big phones because I have really small hands I
00:07:33 ◼ ► So I might as well just have the bigger battery like at this point even the iPhone mini is too big so I
00:07:44 ◼ ► I mean I think is more and more people use them as their primary kind of personal computing device
00:07:49 ◼ ► Not having to reach up all the way having stuff at the bottom is a good move and as somebody who?
00:08:24 ◼ ► Gone back to an OS before her. I know you know when we had that I was like I cannot believe this
00:08:38 ◼ ► They they've listened you can put stuff back at the top if you want the bottom is better
00:08:46 ◼ ► Yeah, and it's I guess that's still I to me the biggest surprise that people who don't pay attention
00:08:53 ◼ ► To the betas and god bless you all you know especially if you if you're nerdy enough to listen to the show
00:08:59 ◼ ► But not nerdy enough to to have a spare device or to be reckless enough to put these betas on your main iPhone
00:09:25 ◼ ► WWDC I wait till August and maybe I get on the beta then and I got a couple of emails this week
00:09:31 ◼ ► From people who like started on beta 6 and they're like I don't see what the big deal is no because you chose the right time
00:09:38 ◼ ► Honestly like so it's weird because I no longer professionally need to be on the betas and in fact in some cases
00:09:43 ◼ ► It's it's a bad thing because for work stuff like if something doesn't work right like it could be a problem
00:09:49 ◼ ► I do still have like secondary devices. They'll put stuff on but I'm so used to at this point like it's been like
00:09:55 ◼ ► More than a decade that I always have the beta you know running usually the developer beta
00:10:03 ◼ ► I think for most people I would be like if you can't wait until September the right time is usually like mid-august
00:10:09 ◼ ► That's usually the right time in my opinion to get going with the beta because most the egregious stuff is worked out
00:10:16 ◼ ► The showstoppers are done. Yeah, and you're getting close to what you're gonna see in the final version
00:10:38 ◼ ► Release where literally three days after the new iPhones were introduced they came out with iOS
00:11:02 ◼ ► 13.0 had to start flashing it onto iPhones and three days later came out with a point release
00:11:52 ◼ ► Do you want to upgrade hit this button and it'll upgrade overnight while your phone is charging iOS 13.0 didn't get pushed to anybody
00:11:59 ◼ ► You know you could get it if you wanted it right if you if you went in and checked manually you could get it
00:12:04 ◼ ► But it wasn't going to push itself right which is smart and in that way they can kind of temper okay?
00:12:16 ◼ ► Are we even maybe even getting telemetry and feedback that this isn't working and we need to stop notifying people you know?
00:12:31 ◼ ► You know the 20th or so or whatever the day of the month you know I guess they usually push them out on a Friday
00:12:36 ◼ ► day whatever that day is I think the one thing about Safari that might I I think moving the address bar to the bottom but
00:12:46 ◼ ► The tool you know the standard toolbar that we know and love and which I think is very thoughtfully considered and
00:12:54 ◼ ► Shouldn't have changed and hasn't changed. I think people will get that your eyes might go to the top of your phone
00:13:25 ◼ ► as you scroll and the toolbar fades away at the bottom and the top to make room for content the
00:13:37 ◼ ► It's okay. You know I I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure I don't have a hot take on it
00:13:45 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't have a hot take on it on iOS. I don't like the implementation on Mac. Yeah
00:14:00 ◼ ► Yes, that's the thing on the iPhone you always are in a single tap and and you have to manually press that button and then scroll
00:14:07 ◼ ► Through it whereas you are tapping or touching if you're using the touch bar for some reason
00:14:12 ◼ ► You are going to those places manually so sorry I always have to make fun of the touch bar. It's just such a
00:14:34 ◼ ► I'm clinging to until this beta is not beta anymore, and then I'll send it back therefore
00:14:42 ◼ ► I'm a similar thing I have it running on an iMac might and I have it like in a container
00:14:45 ◼ ► But I don't have it on a touch bar Mac on a touch bar, but yeah, but I think you're right like this because you know
00:14:57 ◼ ► When you're switching and you're manually making that decision to go to that tab when it then suddenly has a completely different look and it doesn't
00:15:05 ◼ ► Look like what you're expecting and now it's difficult to even ask at least in earlier versions
00:15:10 ◼ ► It's gotten a little bit better, but you know it was a difficult to kind of distinguish like okay
00:15:35 ◼ ► Screenshots of the interface and say okay. Here's what it looks like on the New York Times
00:15:55 ◼ ► No, you just switch between tabs and all of a sudden all of this stuff at the top flashes to a different color
00:16:05 ◼ ► yeah, like it feels like I'm taking out of what I'm doing like I now I'm focusing on something that I didn't used to have to
00:16:13 ◼ ► I'm not a fan of that like I'm switching this for a reason usually because I know what I'm going for when I check something
00:16:19 ◼ ► I don't want to immediately have to readjust. Okay. Where's my point of reference? Where are my buttons? Where's whatever I need to do?
00:16:27 ◼ ► I think if we didn't have at this point close to 30 years of experience with how like web browser Chrome works, but we do
00:16:58 ◼ ► They do have a thing where they can match some of the stuff to a color that you select that the developer can customize
00:17:04 ◼ ► But it doesn't do the thing where it's automatically taking things from the web page and and I personally prefer that a little bit more
00:17:11 ◼ ► But I also feel like that's a different like mental model because again, it's a progressive web app
00:17:21 ◼ ► Whereas if I have tabs open I'm expecting a web page and I'm expecting certain user interface elements to be consistent
00:17:47 ◼ ► WWDC versions of Safari 15 they like the idea that hey this it lets the web page be front and center
00:17:57 ◼ ► But but I feel like the unexpected outcome of it is it actually draws way more attention to the chrome, right?
00:18:07 ◼ ► Inch and a half of my Safari windows than when I was running those versions of Safari with that option turned on
00:18:16 ◼ ► And I have to say it was it's not that difficult for people who are really that bothered by it to either
00:18:25 ◼ ► So I don't know I get why I guess like they would think that it's a good thing makes it more immersive
00:18:31 ◼ ► But I'm with you. I think that it just draws more attention to to those elements on the iPhone
00:18:39 ◼ ► It's almost like having a bad flight, you know, like like where you hit a lot of turbulence, you know, and they're like
00:18:46 ◼ ► Hey, this is actually dangerous. Definitely. Keep your seatbelt on don't even go to the bathroom and
00:18:50 ◼ ► even if you're not a nervous flyer your palms are sweaty because you just don't expect the plane to be rocky and
00:18:57 ◼ ► It smooths out and you have a nice landing. I feel like that's where they've taken it on the iPhone
00:19:07 ◼ ► That's the thing that was interesting to me too is we've seen this happen a couple of times. I'm trying to I
00:19:17 ◼ ► There might have been something with 13, but I think that there was something I think it was before iOS 10
00:19:21 ◼ ► But there have been a couple instances where we've seen them kind of go back and forth and I remember
00:19:26 ◼ ► More than a decade ago. Actually. Do you remember when they had the weird tab experiment with a Safari Mac?
00:19:32 ◼ ► Yeah, very early very early. Yeah, where they had like the tabs on top similar to Chrome, right?
00:19:39 ◼ ► So we've seen this a few times but it is always interesting to me, especially for a company that guards itself
00:19:44 ◼ ► I think it would prize itself on being very refined in its public image and being very set in its decisions that it puts out
00:19:53 ◼ ► In iterations frankly happening and very clearly based on feedback that they were getting from from users and developers
00:20:11 ◼ ► That was the massive change the the big get rid of all the texture and three-dimensional depth and Johnny I've has taken over
00:20:28 ◼ ► Was the part that stuck and it took people's attention. I remember mail in particular used these
00:20:40 ◼ ► Artistically, you know, yeah, it's it's one of the neat things about Helvetica Noya that it has these thin and super fat black weights
00:20:57 ◼ ► You don't because it was so thin. No, I remember that there were there were a number of those things
00:21:01 ◼ ► They've kind of made changes. There were icons that weren't finalized there were you know, certain buttons with that iOS 7
00:21:07 ◼ ► Side note, I didn't realize it was Noya. I always thought it was new but that's Noya. Have you seen the help?
00:21:13 ◼ ► This is me me pronouncing a hard to pronounce word correctly for one of the few times ever in the history of this podcast
00:21:20 ◼ ► No, I'm really glad to know this because I've been mentally like in my head saying this wrong for however many years
00:21:30 ◼ ► No, I don't think so was announced Helvetica now variable monotype just released it and it's basically a variable version of
00:21:46 ◼ ► So that's kind of cool. If you send me a link I will I promise to put it in the show notes. I
00:21:52 ◼ ► Will I'll put it in I will put it in our shared notes. But anyway long story short Safari 15 is in good shape
00:22:11 ◼ ► Solution that takes the best of what Safari was already very good at and adds some very
00:22:19 ◼ ► Forward thinking ideas for moving it forward in the era of big phones, which clearly is not going away
00:22:29 ◼ ► Things will continue to be I do also like I have to say because at first I was kind of thinking
00:22:53 ◼ ► but in this case, I think is enough of a difference and enough of a change after you know, so many years that I
00:22:58 ◼ ► Appreciate that but I also think like I agree with you. I think it's a good design decision
00:23:03 ◼ ► I think it's something that's forward-thinking and will be good for these bigger phones. I am glad I have to say this is one of those
00:23:23 ◼ ► There will be a million of those what time is the Super Bowl post like literally the second that iOS 15 drops
00:23:28 ◼ ► All right. Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends at memberful
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00:25:02 ◼ ► Slash talk show that's a memberful.com slash talk show and they'll know you came from the show. I recommend them
00:25:26 ◼ ► Little thing about Safari 15 that annoys me I tweeted about it. Haven't written about it on daring fireball
00:25:35 ◼ ► The closed buttons for the tabs are on the upper right instead of the upper left on iOS. Yeah
00:26:31 ◼ ► In the US we drive on the right side of the road in the UK and a bunch of other countries
00:26:44 ◼ ► I'm not arguing like like the way that I'll go to the mat for Fahrenheit over Celsius for air temperature
00:27:02 ◼ ► From Pennsylvania to New Jersey and then all of a sudden you drive on the other side of the road
00:27:10 ◼ ► When I complained about it on Twitter what some people said is well, no, I like it because way more people are right-handed than left-handed
00:27:21 ◼ ► and therefore putting the close buttons and the top right makes it easier to hit with your thumb if you're holding it one-handed and
00:27:34 ◼ ► Maybe that's what they're thinking. I don't know to me. The idiom is more important than the reachability
00:27:43 ◼ ► I've never thought about the idiom that way but I think I understand we were coming from and
00:27:47 ◼ ► For me, I think again and this is just my own preference because regardless of how I'm using the phone
00:28:16 ◼ ► Don't know, you know, like it's in since you could just swipe to the side to get rid of a tab
00:28:29 ◼ ► Artifacts that I spend way too much time thinking about but the Mac came first then Windows
00:28:38 ◼ ► The Mac came after all the stuff at Xerox that Steve Jobs and his team got to go and look at it wasn't the first graphical
00:29:06 ◼ ► You know, I mean it was it was honestly it was a solid, you know decade before they actually had
00:29:11 ◼ ► The first the first version of Windows was literally like a character based thing, you know
00:29:16 ◼ ► It's a joke like it's funny, you know, I mean like you 3.0, you know is the first one where you could kind of say
00:29:26 ◼ ► You never find it, but it was we all to be honest was Windows 95 that really introduced new paradigms and I think
00:29:31 ◼ ► Actively changed things and Apple famously, you know the the you know Windows 95 welcome to Apple 84
00:29:45 ◼ ► Heavily were influenced by but there were new paradigms to the start menu right-clicking for context
00:29:53 ◼ ► Windows at that point took into its own but yeah Mac it's yes, obviously, you know Xerox PARC predates
00:30:04 ◼ ► Where I think more than that where all the software that we use was developed and iterated on which then became part of
00:30:12 ◼ ► You know the OS is themselves and the part of how we interact with the applications including incidentally
00:30:22 ◼ ► That's my favorite thing ever. I mean it was a freaking Mac app. It was Mac only for like three years. I
00:30:29 ◼ ► So my question and I don't even know if there's anybody left who remembers it my question has always been
00:30:35 ◼ ► From the very earliest days of Windows did they put the close button at the top right instead of the top left?
00:30:50 ◼ ► Yeah, there was ill conceived look and feel right the the look and feel lawsuit, which was
00:30:55 ◼ ► Which was a time well and it was incoherent because it it's like a lot of political discourse today where it's like Apple was
00:31:19 ◼ ► It was some sort of ham-fisted foot stomping attempt to say we should be the only people with a graphical
00:31:31 ◼ ► I mean, especially since like it built on as we just said the stuff that they saw from Xerox, right like
00:31:37 ◼ ► And and even if it hadn't like we should never just have one of anything. But anyway go on well
00:31:46 ◼ ► broad concept a basic concept that it and and in fact, nobody ever really does right it's it's not like
00:32:05 ◼ ► Underneath it and just make the whole as as much of the front surface as you technically can just make it be a touchscreen
00:32:16 ◼ ► The iPhone was first and it it is right and just that once that idea had entered people's heads that that's that's the way
00:32:24 ◼ ► All phones have worked since until you know at some point maybe somebody will come up with a better idea, but probably not
00:32:31 ◼ ► Right. I mean we have some of the foldable stuff which I think some of those concepts are interesting and maybe as that gets better
00:32:40 ◼ ► It's like you've got this slab of glass that that is just the screen and that is what you have
00:32:46 ◼ ► I suspect that Microsoft kind of knew Apple might sue and that the look-and-feel lawsuit wasn't
00:32:59 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm sure I'd be I'd be interested to know I'm sure there's still people I don't know if they're still at Microsoft
00:33:05 ◼ ► I'm sure there are people who are still around who know that but I'd be curious about that too if they made the decision either
00:33:11 ◼ ► Because they were worried about you know, look-and-feel lawsuits or whatever or maybe just because they wanted to differentiate
00:33:21 ◼ ► It just makes me wonder like was there a meeting where this was decided and if it if the meeting had just gone slightly
00:33:28 ◼ ► Differently we'd all have closed button from the top left and and none of this would be a debate
00:33:35 ◼ ► I think we can really hang our hats on this if we get sued that we can say look if you want to close the
00:33:51 ◼ ► I don't know much about it because I mean talk about talking about you know, like disasters like the OS 2 stuff
00:34:10 ◼ ► that was their original their original idea was that the title bar was only as wide as the
00:34:16 ◼ ► The string that the name, you know the name of the window. Yeah now the the Linux distribution
00:34:28 ◼ ► this was when so Mark shuttleworth their CEO and founder who made a bunch of money in like the dot-com era and and you know
00:34:41 ◼ ► he there was this period of time in like the late aughts where he was very like boisterous about the fact that like
00:34:47 ◼ ► Linux on the desktop is gonna out Mac the Mac and everybody laughed and obviously it was wrong because
00:34:56 ◼ ► The closest thing that we have to it I would argue is actually current versions of Windows and the way that they integrate
00:35:01 ◼ ► The Windows subsystem for Linux, but that'll get me hate mail from a whole bunch of other people
00:35:12 ◼ ► when they were trying to take that on when he was actually investing a lot of money in the desktop experience for Ubuntu which I
00:35:21 ◼ ► It didn't make the clusterfuck that is the Linux desktop environment any less of a clusterfuck
00:35:30 ◼ ► They also had them you to be circular and and they didn't have the same, you know colors, you know, the
00:35:38 ◼ ► Stoplight colors as Mac OS, but they did have you know, these like circular, you know things within their
00:35:44 ◼ ► UI frameworks and they put it on the left and people it was mixed some people really liked it
00:35:50 ◼ ► A lot of people really didn't but it was that way for three or four years, I think and then they moved it back to
00:35:58 ◼ ► always was surprising to me and and it's so weird because all these years later whenever I
00:36:11 ◼ ► I always have this like a weird thing with Ubuntu where I'm expecting it to be on the left
00:36:17 ◼ ► But they've moved it to the right and I'm just like really, you know, but that's that was one of those weird ones where?
00:36:25 ◼ ► I think they were maybe trying to capture the Mac audience or I don't know what the rationale was and then
00:36:30 ◼ ► Either their own feedback or something else. They were just like now and then they moved it
00:36:34 ◼ ► It's not a bad goal, right if you think like hey the people who really care about user interface are using the Mac
00:36:44 ◼ ► So we should try to appeal to Mac users. That's not a bad idea. And even if it falls short, it's not a bad
00:36:51 ◼ ► What would you call it? Like our North Star is yeah. No, it's not bad. No, I don't think it's bad at all
00:37:07 ◼ ► It's it's based on Ubuntu but they have their own completely kind of customized user interface, which is very similar to the Mac
00:37:14 ◼ ► Although it's original to them and and they also their big thing is like they want their applications in their store to all have a consistent
00:37:27 ◼ ► and so they're trying but they're they have a similar kind of I think North Star where they're
00:37:32 ◼ ► trying to be well designed and and you know, I don't think that they would say that they're outright like trying to copy or
00:37:45 ◼ ► This is the quality that we would like to in a perfect role aspire to be even if our implementation is different. I
00:37:51 ◼ ► Just can't get overthinking that there's a better version of our you know in in the multiverse of universes
00:37:59 ◼ ► There's one where Microsoft put the closed buttons on the top left and then everyone's in the top left and nobody ever even thinks about it
00:38:07 ◼ ► No, you ever thinks about it. Nobody ever thinks about it. Although I bet somebody would have like it would probably not be used very often
00:38:14 ◼ ► Maybe that would be like the the canoe herd or whatever it was that the installment was trying and failed to do
00:38:38 ◼ ► It's funny, you know and it makes me think about like the early prototype of the aqua interface
00:38:50 ◼ ► People you you mentioned that to people who weren't like obsessively following like news of back OS X circa the year
00:39:14 ◼ ► I remember reading about the stuff. I obviously didn't using the betas then because I didn't have the ability to really, you know
00:39:22 ◼ ► Computers or whatever then but I remember reading about it and being like, huh? That's that's weird
00:39:29 ◼ ► Glad that they rethought that before maybe that ships, but maybe that comes full circle, you know with the iOS
00:39:40 ◼ ► It's like well sometimes they'll show us bad ideas and we get to see apples abandoned ideas
00:39:52 ◼ ► Look whether it's a trip to the corner store or a weekend away or a vacation an extended stay with friends and family
00:39:59 ◼ ► We're all navigating the current reality of travel, but no matter your destination or style a ways
00:40:05 ◼ ► suitcases bags and accessories all come in a variety of colors sizes and materials to suit your needs and
00:40:16 ◼ ► All of a way suitcases are designed to last a lifetime with durable exteriors that can withstand even the roughest of baggage
00:40:38 ◼ ► Keeps like if you put your shirts behind the compression pad and then cinch it up. It keeps your shirts from getting wrinkled
00:41:01 ◼ ► That is meant to be used for this. You can just put your dirty stuff in it. It is great
00:41:06 ◼ ► It makes you wonder why that hasn't been part of suitcases for like a hundred years all the little details are just terrific
00:41:27 ◼ ► Polycarbonate that's like a fancy word for nice plastic, but that's what I've got. It's great, but they also have aluminum. They have durable nylon
00:41:34 ◼ ► Terrific selection of colors and here's the thing. They have a hundred day trial on everything that they make
00:42:54 ◼ ► I thought that his review is actually probably said everything that I would want to say about it. I just I struggle to
00:43:03 ◼ ► Why it exists I get the point in it and it's I think like a really compelling idea behind magsafe
00:43:12 ◼ ► but with the speed in which it charges the fact that you can't charge it itself wirelessly, which is just
00:43:22 ◼ ► And I know that was a part of Quinn's video is that I think it was his wife or somebody
00:43:31 ◼ ► I'll just put it on a charging pad and right now that doesn't that doesn't do anything. No
00:43:36 ◼ ► No, I mean I I get why it doesn't work either and I can understand that but it does just feel counterintuitive
00:43:41 ◼ ► but I think for me the bigger thing is just it takes so long to kind of provide any juice and
00:43:46 ◼ ► You know kind of some of the other trade-offs. I'm like, you know at this point if I if I'm in the
00:43:54 ◼ ► Position where I need this battery quickly. I don't know if this is going to actually provide what I need
00:44:08 ◼ ► Versus can I just have a smaller battery pack, you know in my bag anyway, if that's what I need I just
00:44:14 ◼ ► With the price and with with the kind of performance either so I was just like I can't justify this
00:44:31 ◼ ► Have this thought in mind, but it's a lot like the initial versions of Safari 15 where it's like this sounds like a great idea
00:44:44 ◼ ► It sounds great that you just have this thing that you can magnetically attach to the back of your phone and let's say
00:44:51 ◼ ► Super common case for me is when I'm on vacation. I was with friends a couple weeks ago
00:45:04 ◼ ► I take tons of photos and I shoot lots of video and I have my phone set to shoot in 4k, you know and which actually
00:45:12 ◼ ► Consumes a lot of battery, you know, like it's as a phone reviewer. I still don't know a better way
00:45:29 ◼ ► Well, how do you deplete the iPhone the best? I know and that's always the thing. Yeah for you is recording video
00:45:48 ◼ ► I don't know because the phone won't go to sleep while it's recording video and shooting 4k 60, you know
00:45:59 ◼ ► So yeah, it sounds great. You just take this pack and and I use battery packs. I've always been obsessed with them
00:46:15 ◼ ► You know one of the things I like with a battery pack is to have a very short cable because I do you know for years
00:46:28 ◼ ► Juice up the phone in in the middle of a day while I'm away from any kind of wall socket
00:46:37 ◼ ► 4-inch cable so that it's you know, I don't have a cable sticking out of my pocket. Well magsafe sounds perfect, right?
00:46:44 ◼ ► There's no cable at all. It seems it seems great. And that's kind of what I was hoping for and then
00:47:09 ◼ ► It really seems not to charge your iPhone in practice. It kind of just keeps your iPhone where it is
00:47:20 ◼ ► Normally your phone just stays at 30% and I if you really take it out never use it just set it aside
00:47:27 ◼ ► It will charge your phone. I'm not claiming that it doesn't make your phone go to 31 32 33
00:47:33 ◼ ► But I'm saying in real life using your phone as it's connected to this battery pack. It just kind of floats it treads water
00:47:45 ◼ ► Although obviously it's more slowly but that it reminded me of the first iPhone battery case
00:47:50 ◼ ► And they came out within like in 2015 or 2016 because that was a similar thing where you know, it was a
00:47:56 ◼ ► Smaller capacity than the mofi cases and whatnot at the time, but it obviously had a better pass-through and whatnot
00:48:15 ◼ ► But that was kind of like I think the way that it was kind of position was not so much that this is now charging
00:48:23 ◼ ► Using some of the juice from this case and and your phone is able to be like at whatever its its level was
00:48:31 ◼ ► And I think you're right like it's it's I guess maybe useful if you're in a scenario where you're like, okay
00:48:37 ◼ ► I for whatever reason cannot have a small battery pack and look you can find more higher capacity battery packs that are
00:48:49 ◼ ► Charger does yes, you'll need a cable but you can get a small one for that too, but it's just like
00:49:23 ◼ ► When I'm going to the beach or out with friends and I know I'm going to need to plug in
00:50:07 ◼ ► Right, right, and I noticed this the equipment since in his video, but I actually noticed this too
00:50:13 ◼ ► When I was outdoors with it, and this was kind of the thing that really killed it for me when I was outdoors with it
00:50:24 ◼ ► If you know, I tried to kind of raise, you know that then it started to get really hot and for me
00:50:31 ◼ ► I was just kind of like, okay. Well, this is useless and it seemed to actually work more poorly outdoors than it did indoors and for me most
00:50:38 ◼ ► situations where I'm going to be using a battery pack are going to be situations where I'm outdoors and
00:50:47 ◼ ► I guess you know in the summer, but it's not like the Sun hits place on earth or anything
00:50:51 ◼ ► But I can imagine you know, if I'm at the beach where it's hot anyway and where already you have issues, you know with
00:50:58 ◼ ► You know keeping the battery from from overheating and whatnot, but if you're already in that scenario
00:51:04 ◼ ► if I'm at a concert and I've got this thing on and it's hot out and then this is hot and
00:51:10 ◼ ► And the you know feels like the iPhone is overheating like this is just probably not gonna even give me any net power
00:51:18 ◼ ► So I've come full circle and I would encourage anybody who's vaguely interested in a mag safe
00:51:29 ◼ ► Also if you've really if the whole thing you really want to do and no matter what you and I have just said
00:51:37 ◼ ► About how it's not that great magnetically if you really want to just use a portable battery pack
00:51:50 ◼ ► But the anchor one to me is a better product and even price aside, but it is double the price
00:51:56 ◼ ► You could buy two of them, you know, it's literally half the price, but it works as a regular old-fashioned
00:52:09 ◼ ► I would still prefer the anchor one because you still have that ability to quickly charge it and then then the benefit
00:52:16 ◼ ► Well, then why even get it instead of a non magnetic one is that when you're traveling?
00:52:32 ◼ ► Your phone will snap on to it and it'll both will charge overnight and then during the day if you want to top off your
00:52:40 ◼ ► Phone with your portable battery pack just use a cable and you'll get you'll charge so much faster
00:53:03 ◼ ► That's totally what I would do because then I feel like you get the best of what you would want the mag safe for
00:53:09 ◼ ► With the the wireless charging and the fact that it can also be a standard, you know power bank
00:53:16 ◼ ► So my advice would be to anybody out there who already owns a portable battery pack that's not magnetic at all. You're good
00:53:43 ◼ ► So and they also they make it in green and purple which is nice because I'm looking at the purple one
00:53:48 ◼ ► That might well who knows when travel will return but that wouldn't be a bad thing to keep in my travel bag to be honest
00:54:00 ◼ ► Could I could have that in there? Yeah. Yeah, so you just you carry that just to plug into a hotel TV to 100%
00:54:13 ◼ ► The the content that I want to access and and the advantage over, you know a it's smaller than an Apple TV
00:54:28 ◼ ► You don't have to you know, do the weird, you know, like creating a router thing, you know
00:54:33 ◼ ► Which is just that that's a that's a non-starter. So that's a and it was like $30 or something when I got it
00:54:39 ◼ ► It was on sale from Prime Day. This was a couple years ago and it's it's very good. Plus it has the Apple TV app
00:54:51 ◼ ► The other charger related thing I wanted to talk to you about and again, it's maybe it's my fault. Maybe I should seek out
00:54:59 ◼ ► guests who disagree with me, but I wanted to talk about the you and I had a brief exchange on Twitter and I was like
00:55:10 ◼ ► Hey, we're not gonna put chargers in the box anymore. And now, you know Apple went first and yep
00:55:35 ◼ ► but I think all things considered the trade-offs are on the side of getting rid of headphone jacks and
00:55:42 ◼ ► I feel that Apple leading the way on we're not even gonna put a charger in the box because yay environment
00:55:56 ◼ ► Entire drawer full of chargers, but I kind of feel like the trade-offs just aren't worth it
00:56:10 ◼ ► So this is this is a hundred dollar battery pack that as we've discussed is not as good as the one that is half the price
00:56:17 ◼ ► From anchor. Okay, and the anchor one I guarantee you there's still some sort of markup on that
00:56:25 ◼ ► So Apple is is making I don't even know how much money off of that hundred dollar battery pack
00:56:45 ◼ ► So if you want to actually juice that back up again, and let's say that you have bought an iPhone 12 or 12 Pro or 12 mini
00:57:11 ◼ ► And this was kind of my point in like my Twitter random and I've done this a couple times
00:57:16 ◼ ► You know, it was one thing and I know that many of us do have tons and tons of old adapters
00:57:27 ◼ ► We have fast charging and where the phones are big enough and powerful enough that they need higher capacity
00:57:33 ◼ ► Charging bricks. So those tiny ones are not going to do it very quickly and or efficiently so
00:57:41 ◼ ► Thanks for buying this $1,500 phone that we're super excited about you can get this high, you know fast
00:57:46 ◼ ► You know charger stuff, but we're not gonna include one on the box the one that you've got also
00:57:51 ◼ ► Oh, this is the funny thing too the cable that we do include in the box will not work with your old charger
00:57:59 ◼ ► Right because the the one in the box now has USB C and all the old chargers are USB USB A so
00:58:06 ◼ ► Like to me that's that's just shitty because in I think you're at that point you were basically telling someone
00:58:17 ◼ ► Which one of the best things about getting a new phone is getting a new cable it might you know because the the Apple cables
00:58:24 ◼ ► Suck I buy anchor ones and some other brands, but you know, we all know that they fall apart
00:58:30 ◼ ► And even if they were the highest quality cable after a year of constant use like I don't know
00:58:41 ◼ ► and and it doesn't you know like stop working because it's bent a certain way and and it doesn't fray and it's gonna
00:58:49 ◼ ► You either have to buy a new, you know, use use your old grimy cable or you have to buy another brick anyway
00:58:54 ◼ ► And to your point what most people are going to do is they're gonna balk at spending $30
00:58:58 ◼ ► On a charging brick as they should because it's obscene and they're gonna buy a crappy one
00:59:04 ◼ ► Which is not going to work as well. So I just and you're paying $1,500 for a phone in some cases. It's just
00:59:36 ◼ ► You already have a charger that would charge in in the theoretical world where the iPhone 12 came with a good charger
01:00:02 ◼ ► Even the a typical like what is the less than average charger, right? It's like the old George Carlin bit that hey
01:00:10 ◼ ► If you ever get upset about how stupid the average person is think about the fact that half of the people are dumber than than that
01:00:18 ◼ ► It's like if the average charger that people buy is not that great. What's what is the 25th percentile, right?
01:00:26 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing in a lot of cases. It's people are either using what they have around
01:00:31 ◼ ► they might be using an old thing that came with an old Android phone or that came with like a
01:00:35 ◼ ► Fire tablet or a Kindle or something, you know and in some cases it comes down to because I'm thinking about my sister in this case
01:00:42 ◼ ► She's somebody who always loses her cables and whatnot. And so she actually ironically I think uses a
01:00:48 ◼ ► Battery pack that is then plugged into the wall and then she has the charging cable coming out of that
01:01:02 ◼ ► You know charging stuff for before because he's misplaced things and and he buys a new phone maybe every five years
01:01:17 ◼ ► I'm mad for normal people who don't have this stuff and then have to go to Walmart or the gas station or
01:01:27 ◼ ► suckered into they see the $30 thing and they're like, I'm not doing that I'm gonna get this $10 one and
01:01:35 ◼ ► Like if you get one from anchor or somebody else, but there are plenty of Chinese knockoff ones that you don't know where they're from
01:01:48 ◼ ► that looks like the Apple chargers and that are the fake ones that that Apple has spent so much time trying to shut down that we
01:01:55 ◼ ► Know when people take them apart are dangerous and don't follow specifications and are just bad
01:02:00 ◼ ► Honestly, that's probably what most of them are is there the counterfeit Apple chargers?
01:02:05 ◼ ► I think and I think that the common person's intuitive sense is wrong, which is intuitively I
01:02:12 ◼ ► Think that people think well if it charges my phone at all, then that's fine that that's it
01:02:18 ◼ ► It either works or it doesn't and if it works then my phone gets charged and that's it and they don't really think about
01:02:28 ◼ ► you know and you don't see I'm not trying to claim that there are stories about people whose houses burned down because they bought a
01:02:53 ◼ ► Don't think that the magsafe thing has 90% margins like you said, but I'm sure it has high margins
01:02:58 ◼ ► And I think that Apple's what do they cost like the regular ones are like 30 bucks, right? It's yeah
01:03:16 ◼ ► Engineered well-designed chargers. I think that's probably a fair price and if you're paying less
01:03:22 ◼ ► Probably isn't and I think it's less about safety and probably more about efficiency. It's surprising to me
01:03:28 ◼ ► I always said this like when people gave Apple a very hard time for years that the that the charger they did include
01:03:47 ◼ ► We are finally at the point where the Gann chargers are small enough and are available and are actually fairly inexpensive
01:03:59 ◼ ► They could certainly pass the price on to the consumer if they wanted to but it would cost them a couple of dollars more
01:04:05 ◼ ► They could include a Gann charger in the box. That is still that same size and and is the same efficiency
01:04:12 ◼ ► They don't and instead, you know, the argument is that it's about the environment and that's bullshit
01:04:21 ◼ ► Because this was a member this a friend of mine on Twitter when this happened in September and I was ranting about this for the first
01:04:35 ◼ ► He got an email from the Apple salesperson saying hey, we just noticed that you didn't have you know
01:04:48 ◼ ► So don't tell me that this is a green initiative when your salespeople are already looking at this as an opportunity to upsell
01:04:55 ◼ ► The one environmental thing I could maybe see the argument with is that it does mean the box is now smaller
01:05:14 ◼ ► It's all about saving Apple money and Samsung money and Google money and whoever else money on
01:05:37 ◼ ► Would mean that people wouldn't have to continue buying for their other devices because it's not like the iPhone is the only
01:05:47 ◼ ► I don't have to buy a bunch of these I can just use my iPhone brick with these other things too. I
01:05:51 ◼ ► Don't know. I remember as a kid. I don't remember which car I think it was my mom had a Plymouth Horizon
01:06:08 ◼ ► Plymouth and Dodge were like two divisions of Chrysler. It was sort of like a Volkswagen rabbit
01:06:13 ◼ ► It was a hatchback but not even a station wagon size sort of a compact hatchback car and it it had
01:06:41 ◼ ► they got paper floor mats because they the real floor mats were extra and my parents like I will just will buy floor mats on
01:06:52 ◼ ► But they didn't get the ones from Plymouth because they were so expensive and it's like okay
01:07:09 ◼ ► Get it that the I knew as a kid. This is not like an expensive car. This isn't a luxury car
01:07:17 ◼ ► But it is a new car and it was exciting and fun that we had a new car and it had a new car smell
01:07:29 ◼ ► Literally paper floor mats that and they even had like a bad logo on it, you know, like the Plymouth logo
01:07:39 ◼ ► But it's like totally Mercedes is not going to let you drive off the lot with paper for you, right?
01:07:50 ◼ ► It's like I'm sorry, but there is a part of me that gets frustrated that I'm spending again
01:07:54 ◼ ► $1,500 once taxed and an Apple care and whatever is involved and I don't even buy the the 512 phone. I buy the 256
01:08:06 ◼ ► That's more than a laptop. It's a lot of that's a lot of money and and you know that that's that's for many people gonna be
01:08:16 ◼ ► Electronic that they buy over the years, right? Oh without question and and any anything that compares to it would be something that they would keep
01:08:28 ◼ ► You get your home audio setup and maybe you spend more than $1,500. So although probably not honestly
01:08:41 ◼ ► Like I I think what they should do I think what Apple should do is that they should make it when you buy a new iPhone
01:08:51 ◼ ► Have the checkbox off by default, but if you check the box then they'll include a free charger and cable
01:09:03 ◼ ► You don't have to check it and you you you just get your slim iPhone box. That is truly it is a lot
01:09:09 ◼ ► It's it's half the size the box. It is which is great. And and so no, I think that that's a great solution
01:09:24 ◼ ► so if you need that you just go to the page and and you fill out a form and they send it to you like
01:09:38 ◼ ► Brick if that's what you need. I would not take the box. I would not take the charger. I have I have enough chargers
01:09:44 ◼ ► yeah, and at this point I may or I may not it would depend on what charger it is right because
01:09:49 ◼ ► Like honestly, so if it's gonna be the 18-month, maybe I would but maybe I wouldn't right. Um, I
01:09:55 ◼ ► I sold my my friend because I forgot to send mine back as part of the you know, trade-in program or whatever
01:10:18 ◼ ► It was busted and a mutual friend of ours sent me a photo of her phone and she was appalled
01:10:30 ◼ ► The same price that Apple was going to give me to trade it in like like five hundred fifty dollars
01:10:43 ◼ ► Relatively recent very high upgrades very high and big upgrade from what she had before
01:10:47 ◼ ► well when I mailed it to her, you know, I had the box and I opened it up and the chargers there and I'm like
01:10:53 ◼ ► there was the thing there was a part of me where I was like, I'll just include the charger and then I was like
01:10:57 ◼ ► No, I don't have at least from the Apple branded ones. Like I have a lot of gant chargers and stuff
01:11:03 ◼ ► I was like, this is this is the this is the good one, right? Like I didn't get one with my iPhone 12
01:11:17 ◼ ► again for the travel bag because you don't know there are there times when you need a good USB plug that has high power and
01:11:30 ◼ ► But again, like it's just one of those things to just have in the in the bag to always have for emergencies
01:11:35 ◼ ► So I may or I may not get it but I like that idea a lot of being able to choose probably next time
01:11:41 ◼ ► I think the alternative if you didn't want to do that would be to include in the box if you needed to get one
01:11:47 ◼ ► You know have a coupon or something that you could redeem at the Apple Store or on the Apple Store website
01:11:54 ◼ ► I'm not saying that anybody should any time of the day should be able to stroll into the Apple Store and just raise your hand
01:12:05 ◼ ► But yeah one for one with the purchase of a new phone because they're their cheapest phone
01:12:14 ◼ ► $400 for an electronic gizmo. No exactly and it's high-end it is and think about this way like
01:12:22 ◼ ► $400 is more than a lot of Chromebooks. Can you imagine a Chromebook not coming with a charger?
01:12:31 ◼ ► We were talking before about how people are using their phones increasingly as their primary computing thing, which is true
01:12:37 ◼ ► Can you imagine buying even an iPad and like the lowest in iPad, you know cost about the same as the lowest in iPhone se?
01:12:48 ◼ ► So why do you think that is do you think they're going to get rid of the charger with the iPads or the iPad will always?
01:12:54 ◼ ► Keep the charger. I don't know. I wonder how much I guess maybe density they'd be able to shrink from the box
01:13:18 ◼ ► It could I wonder sometimes if maybe they have more to it just so they can have like more like
01:13:26 ◼ ► Because you're woman the when the iPad Pro that the 11 and the 12 inch at the ones the most recent redesign
01:13:34 ◼ ► They were people with the 11 inch models who were like bent out of the box because yes, then yeah
01:13:40 ◼ ► So I wonder if that's one of those things where they're like, okay, we don't want it too thin
01:13:50 ◼ ► So we might as well still have the charger but that's a good question like I think and I and the only
01:13:58 ◼ ► That they see the iPad as a computer and even Apple knows that there is no possible way
01:14:10 ◼ ► Think that maybe where the iPhone suffers that the sort of bean counting mentality of we can double our shipping
01:14:23 ◼ ► But also it is yes far more profitable you put twice as many iPhones on the same boat coming over from China
01:14:41 ◼ ► Yeah, right and it's like because most people charge overnight and they go through the day and
01:14:48 ◼ ► Most people get through every day all days with without their phone iPhone running out of battery
01:14:56 ◼ ► 5 watts is not going to work to charge an iPad and it certainly is not a I don't even know I don't even know what
01:15:07 ◼ ► Yeah, I don't I don't think it'll even power on so I feel like that's that's where the iPhone gets hurt is well
01:15:19 ◼ ► Because they have one already or they have a couple because they bought a couple iPhones before or they just go to the gas station
01:15:25 ◼ ► Or the corner store and just buy whatever they have behind the counter for 10 bucks, which is probably a 5 watt charger
01:15:34 ◼ ► Whereas I don't think you can get away with that if they ship the iPad without a charger and then people try to charge it
01:15:41 ◼ ► With a 5 watt charger. No, you're exactly right. They wouldn't be able to yeah. No, you're right
01:15:48 ◼ ► And that is the problem with the iPhone. I guess my argument is gonna be like at a certain point
01:15:52 ◼ ► It's going to become more of a detriment. You're selling this premium product and Apple has changed the price. They have very firmly
01:15:59 ◼ ► designated that the iPhone has a higher price point than it used to even and it is an expensive device and and part of that
01:16:07 ◼ ► I think was predicated on the idea that Apple knows that people upgrade every three years rather than the previous
01:16:19 ◼ ► Don't you want to feel like you're getting some sort of upgrade? Yeah, totally and to your point
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01:18:42 ◼ ► With the irregular nature of my podcast at this point at all. It doesn't feel like old news, but it's not wet ink
01:18:50 ◼ ► News no, no, it was interesting because I think that a lot of and you've talked about it on dithering - I think at this point
01:19:03 ◼ ► Have kind of shifted to now whether or not the algorithm is actually secure or safe or whether or not it can be reverse-engineered
01:19:16 ◼ ► Let's talk about the iMessage feature first. So the iMessage feature and again even after all of the hey
01:19:24 ◼ ► I think people are conflating these two things as stuff. People are still conflating. I see it every day
01:19:55 ◼ ► You still have to opt into this feature when it comes out which will be sometime later this year with iOS 15
01:20:27 ◼ ► Give them a warning. Hey, are you sure you want to you know, look at this or you sure you want to send this?
01:20:34 ◼ ► But nothing ever goes to the parent for a teenager and then if they're 12 or under it's the same machine learning
01:20:46 ◼ ► If parents still have to opt their kids in and if they do and the kid will get a warning and then they get like
01:20:55 ◼ ► A second warning and if they still go through then the parent gets a notification that says hey, you know the kid looked at
01:21:07 ◼ ► CSAM detection which isn't about machine learning and trying to identify it right that that that that's a neural hash and comparing
01:21:15 ◼ ► You know the bits and however many pieces they have right this is actually AI which is why they can apply it
01:21:20 ◼ ► I think so that the messages after they've come in they're able to run their own neural nets
01:21:27 ◼ ► with probably a high degree of certainty because those are not difficult images to usually decipher to say
01:21:48 ◼ ► She was concerned about having grown up in a very conservative US south that this could hurt
01:22:10 ◼ ► Kids queer kids in in conservative households could definitely this would be the sort of thing where if your parents saw something that you were
01:22:18 ◼ ► Maybe just kids who are in very conservative households who don't want you engaging in any sort of you know
01:22:29 ◼ ► This this could get kids who are in those those households, you know in in trouble and it potentially lead to you know
01:22:38 ◼ ► What Brianna wrote opened my eyes to it and that the key insight that that she offered was
01:22:45 ◼ ► Kids are one of the reasons we like we don't let kids vote, you know, because they're kids they make bad decisions
01:22:58 ◼ ► Whether they're under 13 or teenagers they get like two levels of warnings to go through before it proceeds and
01:23:10 ◼ ► Which yeah would be the most likely and they get two levels of warning. So if they still go through with it
01:23:20 ◼ ► They do and and and I would go even further I would say, you know kids make bad decisions, but also
01:23:43 ◼ ► Hmm, I don't know and and I think what you just said is this Apple's business right and because if it is
01:23:52 ◼ ► Why why I message only why not email why you know if they can use Twitter DMS they could use Facebook Messenger
01:24:11 ◼ ► Although I don't think that that has I'm making fun of you. Yeah, they're you know, snapchat tick-tock
01:24:24 ◼ ► Wonder is like my big question when I heard about this and I'll be honest with you. I actually
01:24:28 ◼ ► I have a lot of problems with with the CCM stuff and I have but a lot of those problems
01:24:34 ◼ ► I think are kind of theoretical and insofar as you know, we're making you know have questions about
01:24:41 ◼ ► The onus of those databases and how those things are controlled and what powers Apple, you know may have to
01:24:53 ◼ ► With some of the recent things about like having faith in how good this neural network in neural hashing stuff is
01:25:02 ◼ ► But also, you know people will find ways around this stuff and you look at false positives
01:25:07 ◼ ► But those are more theoretical and and more like hypothetical in terms of like what could governments how could they abuse this?
01:25:21 ◼ ► Why is this an important business for Apple to be in like why does Apple have to have a part in this?
01:25:30 ◼ ► Like is it why would this not be something that they could allow a third party like Disney who has circle and there are a number
01:25:39 ◼ ► That do various, you know monitoring and more sophisticated ways than like the old net nanny stuff from a million years ago
01:25:45 ◼ ► Like why can't they pass this off to third parties to manage whether it's through an MDM?
01:25:54 ◼ ► Which then could have the right to maybe you know filter messages the same way and also look at some other apps
01:26:01 ◼ ► like why does Apple have to do this is I guess a thing I don't have a good answer to and I I
01:26:35 ◼ ► Described and I have no reason to think it won't but even if that's it and it never gets expanded and there's never any situation
01:26:47 ◼ ► Can you use this thing that detects sexually explicit images in iMessage to also detect?
01:26:53 ◼ ► Blank, whatever blank is even if that never happens and this feature only works exactly as described
01:27:01 ◼ ► Is it a good idea and I'm really struggling to figure out why anybody would think it's a good idea
01:27:17 ◼ ► they know that kids get groomed by sexual predators and I think it's sort of like the analogy of the
01:27:37 ◼ ► inappropriate ideas and then it escalates to inappropriate photos and then further in a probe
01:27:55 ◼ ► Deal with this I that doesn't seem right to me at all regular listens listeners of the show
01:28:07 ◼ ► What is more personal than your family, you know? Yeah, you know and there are bad parents and that it's
01:28:19 ◼ ► Right and but there's you know, there's a broad spectrum of parental philosophies that that one can
01:28:31 ◼ ► Right. I mean, I mean, I think that's ultimately the thing for me. There are bad parents
01:28:38 ◼ ► Well, what's even in the best-case scenario like okay, you are thinking that you're maybe stopping grooming and maybe you could stop some of it
01:28:45 ◼ ► Right. I'm not trying to discount that although I would argue that by making this feature public the way that they are
01:28:50 ◼ ► What you're really doing is just pushing those groomers to platforms like discord, which is what the kids are using anyway
01:29:08 ◼ ► Like the strongest thing that Apple has in its arsenal in terms of keeping people locked into the ecosystem. It is it is great
01:29:19 ◼ ► Guarantee that that's the that is the center of how teens and and even like younger kids communicate. I I
01:29:26 ◼ ► Don't have a ton of experience with with the zoomers, but from what experience I do have that's not necessarily true
01:29:32 ◼ ► Right, like a lot of them are all in on iMessage and I get that but a lot of them especially
01:29:36 ◼ ► After having to spend the last year, you know remote like discord and other things are common
01:29:42 ◼ ► And if there are apps that you know, and your friends are being like this is the one that our parents can't monitor
01:29:47 ◼ ► That's gonna be the one you use right like I you know, I'm old but I when I was in middle school
01:30:03 ◼ ► Could have been alerted of stuff that I sent in those messages. Even if it was completely innocuous a
01:30:11 ◼ ► That would really feel like a violation and gross and be my first instinct would be to be like, okay
01:30:21 ◼ ► I feel like that the idea that it's gonna stop that the grooming is is misguided and then to your point
01:30:27 ◼ ► Yeah, we you know, I just I don't think it's apples business to make these decisions for parents
01:30:32 ◼ ► I'll say this too, you know, I remember what it was like to be a kid and maybe I was a you know
01:30:36 ◼ ► Kind of an asshole. I'm sure that I was but what I would do if I knew that this feature was a thing
01:30:47 ◼ ► But if I'm 12, you know, it's good. It's gonna knock on my friends or whatever the day that I turned 13
01:30:55 ◼ ► Tons and tons of Shrek porn like that's what I'm doing because I want to get them in trouble, you know
01:31:17 ◼ ► You know, she might yell at me she might be in TV restriction, but it's not me in the world
01:31:20 ◼ ► But you know what? I wouldn't know and and then this is this is coming into hypotheticals
01:31:27 ◼ ► Kids don't always know the situation their friends are in. Yes, and and and this in the situation
01:31:32 ◼ ► Like I know that like no matter what I had sent her did unless it was something that was illegal
01:31:37 ◼ ► Right or like violent or like just you know, something that was just not okay my mom and even then my mom would support me
01:31:43 ◼ ► She would like get me like the help that I would need it, right? I would never be a situation
01:31:47 ◼ ► What my parents would like violently like do anything to me, but I don't know that about all of my friends
01:32:05 ◼ ► might have a completely different reaction and and Nikki's life at home might be very different or or
01:32:16 ◼ ► You know, you can have divorced parents that with a serious philosophical divide on yes how to parent
01:32:42 ◼ ► you know what sometimes we know what happens people's home lives, but a lot of times we don't and
01:32:50 ◼ ► So everyone else's must be I was lucky in in some regards. I have a really great mom and my mom is
01:32:57 ◼ ► She's retired now, but she's a she's a child psychologist and she worked in the in a school system and
01:33:06 ◼ ► I'm grateful for it now, but I had friends who like would come over not to see me but to like talk to my mom and
01:33:13 ◼ ► You know and and I'd be like can we hang out and they're you know in the kitchen, you know privately with my mom talking
01:33:19 ◼ ► But I I was lucky I guess in the fact that when I was in middle school, which is the age
01:33:23 ◼ ► I think that really this is what concerns me. It's it's not like the elementary age kids
01:33:27 ◼ ► It's like the 12 year olds. It's the 11 12 year olds the kids who are in sixth and seventh grade and
01:33:36 ◼ ► Most people a lot of kids didn't not I'm not gonna say most but I'm gonna say a lot of kids
01:33:40 ◼ ► didn't have a mom like my mom and didn't feel like they had anybody they could open up to and talk to about difficult things and
01:33:50 ◼ ► You know, like I wouldn't have known that like the way that my parents act about stuff is different like
01:33:58 ◼ ► My my best friend in high school Andrew is gay and his mom when she found out and I think she found out through some
01:34:08 ◼ ► But she sent him to one of those conversion camps and it was it was terrible and it and you know
01:34:16 ◼ ► You know kind of dealing with that and struggling with his sexuality and acceptance and other stuff and you know
01:34:21 ◼ ► I think that he probably would have been older than maybe this age of the iMessage stuff
01:34:53 ◼ ► And with the iMessage feature in particular it's like they're trying to draw a circle around iMessage and say iMessage is
01:35:38 ◼ ► Seriously, technically could not have happened. You know you when I was a teenager when I was 12 years old
01:35:45 ◼ ► Digitally you know they I guess so you didn't have access right you didn't have access to this sort of stuff
01:35:50 ◼ ► But at the same time you know I could talk on the phone and and somebody I could have an inappropriate
01:36:08 ◼ ► spectrum than all the things that are possible today and trying to draw a circle around iMessage and saying we're gonna
01:36:20 ◼ ► Yes in theory and everything's trade-offs. It could help catch something right there. It's
01:36:36 ◼ ► Private you know everybody is mocking them for the what happens on your iPhone your iPhone
01:36:43 ◼ ► As they should frankly if you're going to make that marketing message if that is going to be the thing that you sell if you're
01:36:56 ◼ ► Because of this because that that was that's the implicit thing. It's not just that this is our values, but we are better than Facebook
01:37:20 ◼ ► Where to me that's where Apple is drawing a circle around something that they're saying is unambiguously bad, which is collecting
01:37:40 ◼ ► Agreeance this is bad. We can all agree that this is bad. We can all agree that this is material that does not need to exist
01:37:47 ◼ ► Like I said like that that contrast of let's just assume for this just for this segment of the conversation it works exactly as
01:38:11 ◼ ► It won't make it a much better place because if it ships and and then all the people who collect child
01:38:18 ◼ ► See Sam material. They're just not going to use iCloud photos. They'll know you know, what's the point if they know not to do it?
01:38:35 ◼ ► They just know they don't care. They don't either don't care or they're they don't understand. They don't know
01:38:44 ◼ ► They are I they are doing it. Yeah, I actually yeah, I agree with that. I actually think that that's a
01:38:53 ◼ ► I actually think that this is something that if done correctly and everything works as it's supposed to
01:38:58 ◼ ► Would cut down and on or not maybe cut down but it would catch a lot of this behavior because
01:39:12 ◼ ► And maybe driven by impulses, right? I think some of it also comes down to people believing that they won't get caught
01:39:19 ◼ ► You know, I do that even if they know that that Apple can do this. Oh, I'm not gonna get caught
01:39:28 ◼ ► Exactly. Mine is good. I got mine is good. I'm so much better than everybody else, you know
01:39:35 ◼ ► People are gonna move to other things. Look the big hoarders and the big people sure but but the
01:39:41 ◼ ► The people who I think are like like the like the Josh Duggar type of people and that sort of thing
01:40:13 ◼ ► Collecting seesam in any way shape or form and and so if your argument is hey, this isn't going this is so easily
01:40:29 ◼ ► This accurately pegged. Yes, you've collected known seesam. It is a good thing. There's two angles on it
01:40:44 ◼ ► But they even said they use the field of dream slogan if you build it, they will come that if you build this system
01:40:56 ◼ ► fingerprint other databases, right so that China could say make sure you know, here's it here's a
01:41:02 ◼ ► Thousand known photos of the Dalai Lama and we would like to know every single person who has one of these thousand photos in their
01:41:36 ◼ ► The fingerprint hashing is not the way to do it that it's the it's the most convoluted and worst way to do it
01:41:48 ◼ ► Yeah, I was gonna say I actually think that they would get the iMessage would be an easier vector there
01:41:53 ◼ ► And and I will also point out that you know malware was already used by the Chinese government against the you guys on
01:42:01 ◼ ► The the Chinese government already installed malware to track the you guys and you know, yeah using like exploits, right?
01:42:13 ◼ ► So through other things which which I think is a good point not through Apple's help. They were able to do this anyway
01:42:30 ◼ ► and so I think part of the EFS argument which I don't disagree with is that if you are already making these
01:42:35 ◼ ► provisions on your device and and within your your databases and within the way that your system is set up to do these sorts of
01:42:42 ◼ ► Checks that is opening up potentially another hole in another vector that could be abused not even through policy
01:42:49 ◼ ► But through exploits and through other things and I don't think that that is false on its face
01:43:07 ◼ ► Plutinizing it is all a good thing. I just don't think that it's it's likely to be abused in that way
01:43:14 ◼ ► And and there's a feature so we're talking about this these two upcoming features one for iMessage one for
01:43:31 ◼ ► Coercing Apple and others to do this is the machine learning that's already been in iCloud
01:43:43 ◼ ► wonder because it's one of those things were like first impressions matter and some people have a
01:44:03 ◼ ► like I just typed the word dogs into search like it and I bet that there are a lot of people listening who are like
01:44:10 ◼ ► You could just type dogs into iCloud or into photos and it'll find pictures of dogs and it's like yeah or pizza
01:44:17 ◼ ► It's like almost anything you can think of that is like an innocuous term. You can just type into
01:44:28 ◼ ► Along these lines of hey, what if an oppressive government or any government tried to coerce?
01:45:01 ◼ ► The Chinese government doesn't even know existed as opposed to this fingerprint technology that only involves existing photos
01:45:15 ◼ ► Because of the scrutiny Apple has gone on the record and said no if we are asked to do this
01:45:24 ◼ ► It's good that Apple did that it is curious that Apple didn't foresee that and have that in their day one
01:45:41 ◼ ► But regardless it never should have been a dual announcement. The messaging has just been off I
01:45:47 ◼ ► Do feel I do think that you make a compelling argument because I hadn't actually thought about that. I think you're right
01:45:52 ◼ ► I I hadn't thought about that. I think that that's valid to say they could already do these things
01:46:17 ◼ ► India is one that I think of right because India has already made in my opinion completely
01:46:24 ◼ ► Assertions about stuff that Twitter and other people can do and has been very very, you know
01:46:34 ◼ ► And they have legal frameworks for this to say hey and whip whipping up a hysteria to get a significant
01:46:40 ◼ ► If not a majority of the citizens read behind it and to say yes, this is good. We should route this out
01:46:46 ◼ ► We should do this. Yes, they are using the populism and whatnot to exactly to whip people up 100%
01:46:52 ◼ ► I do I am concerned like maybe and maybe we're wrong like it's one of those things where maybe they've they're way smarter than us
01:47:01 ◼ ► There's a part of me that is concerned that it's like hey now that they see what's possible
01:47:10 ◼ ► Create an incentive for them to put these pressures on and to maybe try to implement their their own
01:47:16 ◼ ► You know workarounds and say hey to legally operate here. You have to do this even though they could have done it before
01:47:28 ◼ ► I don't know but I do think that that's a really good point that the technology already existed for some of the most egregious
01:47:45 ◼ ► one of the things I said right from the get-go and I feel more strongly about it now than day one is that it's a
01:47:52 ◼ ► disaster to announce these two features together because they're there because they sound
01:48:06 ◼ ► It's very natural to complete the very natural to do it and and unfortunately because they're look they're both using neural networks
01:48:16 ◼ ► It is you know comparing to hashes in a database that they're using like the algorithms that way in another it is
01:48:25 ◼ ► But if you don't have a deep understanding of those nuances, which most people don't and frankly people shouldn't have to you know
01:48:42 ◼ ► I'm gonna be also completely candid. It is not my job. It is not your job. It is not the press's job to
01:48:49 ◼ ► Apple's job for them which is to get out their press like we don't need to carry water for them if they couldn't get the
01:48:57 ◼ ► Frankly, it's on them a little bit to kind of clean it up like we can obviously I think it's important for us to have the
01:49:02 ◼ ► Discussions of the distinctions because there are technical differences and policy differences, which are very different right and and and I think that's a valid thing to have
01:49:11 ◼ ► But it's not our responsibility to make sure that the general public understands the differences in these two features
01:49:21 ◼ ► Let me take one last break here and thank our fourth and final sponsor of the show a good friends at hover
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01:51:18 ◼ ► I think there's other features that would be way way riper for abuse. And again, it's worth thinking about that
01:51:24 ◼ ► I actually think it's more we should be thinking more about the ways other features could be abused
01:51:30 ◼ ► As we put more and more of our lines and our communication on these devices the thing that's interesting to me over the last couple
01:51:44 ◼ ► Had the algorithm and Apple says no, that's actually you know, there's something in Iowa version
01:52:00 ◼ ► My understanding is that and and the one proposed, you know, somebody on reddit was like hey
01:52:07 ◼ ► I think I found a collision and it was like a picture of a dog and then the the picture that
01:52:12 ◼ ► generated the same hash, which is just like a 30 character string just like it alpha a to z 1 1 to 0
01:52:24 ◼ ► 30 characters very very small compared to an image, but that the one that matched was like a gray blob
01:52:29 ◼ ► It's just it just looks like a if you wanted to say it was a photo. It'd be like a photo of gray putty, you know
01:53:02 ◼ ► Mathematics that the the images that would be generated to match it aren't going to be a
01:53:10 ◼ ► Child sexual abuse material right the fake rice, right? They're just going to be they're not even gonna look like anything
01:53:20 ◼ ► Random pixels almost but that they happen to put through the same algorithm come out with the same score
01:53:28 ◼ ► It's not the best analogy, but it's sort of like having two photos that that are the exact same size in bytes
01:53:38 ◼ ► But the idea would be that it's an interesting idea that could it be abused this way that if you could
01:53:45 ◼ ► Generate these and you know that you have you have a collection of a hundred images that hash
01:54:04 ◼ ► You don't notice or you think I don't know what that is, but you let it go. It's sort of like swatting, right?
01:54:21 ◼ ► It may but almost but what if the police come to your door and that's the thing that scares me is that it's like
01:54:27 ◼ ► Okay, it is kind of like swatting because it's like okay, you are probably not gonna go to jail, but it could give
01:54:36 ◼ ► extreme overreach and I think are given far too much power to grab people's devices and get orders and an
01:54:42 ◼ ► Apple who does turn a lot of information that they have over to law enforcement officers when asked to request, you know
01:54:57 ◼ ► To grab your phone and to get a backup of all your data and now we can search this and for the moment stuff is tricky
01:55:06 ◼ ► But let's say they were kind of when looking through to try to find these photos that don't exist
01:55:15 ◼ ► um, I also again this becomes completely paranoid and I'm not saying that this is even likely but also
01:55:21 ◼ ► There are cases where I don't think that this and I'm not talking about local law enforcement here
01:55:27 ◼ ► I'm talking about like agencies and groups that to be honest probably have better ways of entrapping people
01:55:33 ◼ ► But you know when we talk about oppressive regimes or even other things if you're saying, okay
01:55:37 ◼ ► Well, we have a payload at this point where we're putting this stuff on your device and we're gonna use that as a way to
01:55:46 ◼ ► Try to you know, catch you up on something else, you know, like like this is the way that we are going to purposely
01:55:53 ◼ ► Say that hey, we found this so that we can now search all of your stuff right and and to be clear
01:56:01 ◼ ► Swatting is a real problem. And and if in the best-case scenario where it's just some teenage
01:56:14 ◼ ► The police come to the victim's house and they're armed and they knock and oh they figure out nothing happened
01:56:21 ◼ ► It's just a huge annoyance to the victim, but I'm not downplaying the fact that there have been people who've been shot died
01:56:27 ◼ ► Yeah, people died right that part tax people been shot like people. Yeah, it is it is it is
01:56:52 ◼ ► Hey, I guess if it became rampant enough Apple would have to either completely rejigger the system or pull it right if they got
01:57:17 ◼ ► It seems unlikely because it's also seems just as unlikely that somebody could just plant real
01:57:26 ◼ ► CSAM images and again that could be that that might even be the bigger weakness, right?
01:57:31 ◼ ► Is there a way you know that if you get access to somebody's phone or their Mac, which might be more likely?
01:57:38 ◼ ► Okay, or I mean like let's just say because this happens sometimes, you know, you have airdrop on like I'm being completely like crazy here
01:57:46 ◼ ► But you know, look if someone sends you a bunch of messages, you know an airdrop and you see one
01:57:53 ◼ ► Like maybe if somebody hides it in there and and just you know, or somebody's not thinking and they just hit accept
01:58:01 ◼ ► You know, I'm reaching I'm just saying what about the you know abusive X who has your password?
01:58:12 ◼ ► Terrible individuals who would weaponize if they thought that they could who would recognize this or sure
01:58:18 ◼ ► And if they put it in and it has an old date, so it doesn't you know, like when you go looking for your
01:58:38 ◼ ► Do think Apple has put a lot of thought into this. I don't think that they've undertaken this lightly at all
01:58:49 ◼ ► My concern would be with the human review that Apple is saying that they're going to undertake
01:59:17 ◼ ► That means that the people who are reviewing it which and and they might be reviewing a lot right like Facebook reported 20 million
01:59:27 ◼ ► instances of see Sam being shared Google I guess through like Google Photos Google Drive
01:59:54 ◼ ► 4,000 and they're all guilty of it. It's legit. Yep that we should report this to Nick Mac
02:00:10 ◼ ► What are the odds that they're going to be paying attention to the four hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred and ninety first?
02:00:26 ◼ ► point you made a couple weeks ago on your blog about how one of the questions about this is like how many people do they
02:00:35 ◼ ► This is not something they've had to do before they have app review, but that's different like this has
02:00:39 ◼ ► Consequences and Facebook the working conditions for their moderators has been horrible
02:00:45 ◼ ► But Facebook and Google with YouTube and other places have had people who that is their job
02:01:08 ◼ ► Did they have that right training and well, but they do see they do see the visual derivative
02:01:16 ◼ ► You know that there is something to look at and and if it truly is just like a gray blob
02:01:25 ◼ ► But day in day out eight hours a day and every single, you know with one in a trillion chances you you know
02:01:33 ◼ ► That's all you're looking at are these visual derivatives of this horrific stuff and again, I don't there's no good answer to this, right?
02:01:44 ◼ ► It's like how do we deal with this sort of content because there is a human cost not just an in error
02:01:52 ◼ ► It's bad if they don't look for it and it's monstrous if they do right. It's a monstrous job late. Yeah
02:02:24 ◼ ► See Sam and I'm young I've never seen or wanted to see anything like that. It was a horrible experience
02:02:45 ◼ ► Wasn't trained on how to have that conversation and she's screaming at me. She is yelling all kinds of things
02:02:54 ◼ ► And it's one of those things that stuck with me a that the stuff that was there was horrific in the whole thing and I wouldn't
02:03:01 ◼ ► Having to spend a lot of time with that on anybody even if they're trained for it, even if they're they're paid for it
02:03:13 ◼ ► In the way that I think I am with the iMessage one. I this might be the best course going forward
02:03:29 ◼ ► I honestly think that they genuinely don't and couldn't know before they turn this feature on how big of a
02:03:41 ◼ ► And I think that would be that's that's maybe my overarching concern when I read that you wrote that I was like, yeah
02:03:47 ◼ ► I think everything else we can have is is hypotheticals and even this like we don't know how big it is
02:03:51 ◼ ► But I think that Mike my overarching hope is that they have the infrastructure and the people in place
02:04:05 ◼ ► Yeah, especially early on if there are even alleged like high-profile cases of false claims or of other stuff
02:04:32 ◼ ► Worry because if they were willing to implement this because of pressures over whether it was antitrust or this or that
02:04:50 ◼ ► That it's an overall win for privacy on the grounds that this is what Apple sees as a necessary step
02:05:10 ◼ ► Let's give them a couple years because you know, that's a serious. It's a big thing. And and I know I know that the
02:05:17 ◼ ► Biggest reason that they don't have end-to-end encryption yet isn't law enforcement pressure from the FBI or anywhere else
02:05:25 ◼ ► It's customer service that it is a daily occurrence that people come in and say I don't have access to any of my Apple devices
02:05:37 ◼ ► You know, there's all kind my mom died my mom died and I she has so many photos, you know
02:05:48 ◼ ► But that Apple can solve now because Apple can unlock this and there's a procedure to vet that the person saying
02:05:57 ◼ ► Let's say three years from now. There is end-to-end encryption for iCloud backups and photos and
02:06:05 ◼ ► This was a first step so that they could say yet. We're doing it in a way that identifies
02:06:16 ◼ ► WWDC just two months ago where now you can name like a family member or a friend as a trusted person to recover your iCloud
02:06:34 ◼ ► But if I've named you as somebody who's trusted then you can help me get back into iCloud
02:06:49 ◼ ► But if not, if three four years from now, we still don't have end-to-end encryption on backups
02:07:01 ◼ ► I still think that there is a valid discussion and and a debate to have about whether the trade-off is worth it or not
02:07:07 ◼ ► I would probably err on saying yeah, I would think that it would be I think that that having encrypted backups is important
02:07:18 ◼ ► But as an option that I guess remains to be seen and that certainly I think would have made sense
02:07:25 ◼ ► But like you said we're just gonna have to wait give them a couple of years, but if it's in five years Apple being Apple
02:07:31 ◼ ► They're not telling us in advance. No, they're not telling us anything and and people reach out
02:07:38 ◼ ► But like I still like do my due diligence when I like I hear things like I'm not gonna go on
02:07:42 ◼ ► Podcaster or Twitter or whatnot about trying to get you know confirmation one way or another
02:07:46 ◼ ► If I can't get something confirmed, I'm not gonna say it, but we haven't heard they're not telling us
02:07:54 ◼ ► We're still like well, maybe next year. We'll have it in encryption. I'm gonna be like, yeah, I I'm calling BS
02:08:01 ◼ ► It's starting to feel overdue at this point. So let's let's hope so Christina. Thank you so much for your time. This was a