0:00:00All right, no jackhammers, no lawn instruments.
0:00:06Thank God.
0:00:07That was the funniest coincidence ever.
0:00:09So anyway, Serenity Caldwell is here.
0:00:11Yesterday we tried to record this episode and I had a jackhammer outside my window.
0:00:16And when that stopped, a lawn crew showed up outside Serenity's window with a riding
0:00:22mower.
0:00:23The biggest lawn mower I have ever seen for a portable lawn crew.
0:00:27was quite something but not very conducive to podcasting.
0:00:31What that big John Deere that Tony Stark was supposed to fix.
0:00:36Never did.
0:00:37Yeah, pretty much that.
0:00:38Only noisier and louder.
0:00:40That's right, he never did fix the lawnmower, the tractor,
0:00:44whatever it is.
0:00:45The McGuffin tractor.
0:00:47Right.
0:00:49So I don't know, a lot's going on.
0:00:51New iMacs?
0:00:54No new MacBooks, though.
0:00:56No new MacBooks.
0:00:57They are still on the watch list.
0:00:59I don't know if we'll get new MacBooks
0:01:00before the end of the year.
0:01:01- I would have guessed, I think if we would have,
0:01:03it would have happened all at once.
0:01:05- Yeah, yeah, I don't see it.
0:01:07There's no need to have a third non-existent event.
0:01:10- This is where, being a podcaster,
0:01:12I'm starting to get lazy.
0:01:13I am not super well informed on the new iMacs, are you?
0:01:17- Yeah, I mean, I'm fairly--
0:01:19- It's good that you're here.
0:01:20- Yeah, I got you covered, John.
0:01:23No, Renee got the information a little bit early
0:01:26and was able to basically give me an FAQ of epic proportions to fill out. So we've got
0:01:32new 21.5 inch iMacs is the biggest news and they are 4k Retina. It's only like the original
0:01:4027 inch iMac, it's only the top end model that's Retina so you can still get 21.5 inch
0:01:46iMacs that are your normal poorer than average resolution quality in comparison to the rest
0:01:54of the Mac and iOS line. But those started I think $1499 and 4k or slightly more than
0:02:004k. I think it's like 4k point five. With improved color definition, they're using the
0:02:09same I don't know the phrase off the top of my head because I'm a bad film student, but
0:02:14they're basically using the same color profiles as you would with the digital projectors.
0:02:19So it allows it to be more true to life when you're editing when you're color correcting
0:02:23both video and photography. And the 27 inch IMAX get that too. They don't get a boost above
0:02:28their 5k, they're still 5k and magical and far too able to just get sucked into their
0:02:35beautiful screen. But they also have improved color definition and they get Skylake, Intel's
0:02:41next generation processor, which has been a long time coming. But no Thunderbolt 3 and
0:02:48the 21.5 inch iMacs are still stuck on Broadwell because the integrated Intel processor, the
0:02:55graphics processor doesn't play nice with Skylake yet because roadmaps.
0:02:59Yeah, so now my year old 5k iMac that I'm looking at is outdated.
0:03:06A little bit outdated. I was actually I was looking at some of the I think Jason Snell's
0:03:09review had initial benchmarks from Geekbench and it was saying, oh yeah, the new 21.5 inch
0:03:14I'm back out paces some for our 5k 27 inch I'm accent like I guess I'm kind of glad I waited now
0:03:21Though yeah, I I'm still I'm gonna go in for the 21.5 inch
0:03:26so the 27 inch is still gonna cook kick my bacon with
0:03:30Fancy sky like mumble-dee-jumble. Yeah, I don't feel too bad about it. I mean, it's inevitable
0:03:36It's a whole you got a whole year as the king of the hill
0:03:38Exactly. And I still subscribe to the I like to buy a Mac, Macs it out and then use it until you know, for years until it gets low because I still find it even with Dropbox and iCloud and other things, I still find that it takes me forever to get a Mac set up just the way I want it.
0:03:55Yeah, even I mean, it's been it's gotten a lot better than it used to be where I still remember the days of just having to clone my hard drive because the idea of in reinstalling all of my applications and tweaking my preferences just made me want to throw up.
0:04:10But yeah, I feel the same way.
0:04:13I still have a 2008 MacBook Pro,
0:04:16Unibody MacBook Pro that I put an SSD in three years ago,
0:04:20and it's still almost as fast as my MacBook Air.
0:04:23I mean, it's a pain in the butt because it's 15 inches and it's not really a
0:04:28super portable machine and it's not retina.
0:04:30But it's still one of those things where I'm like, well,
0:04:33it's still perfectly good and it's still fast.
0:04:36I feel weird just being like, no, sorry,
0:04:39you're gonna go in a drawer, I'm not gonna use you anymore. You really can't do that for an iMac.
0:04:43No, I really, what I did last year when I bought this is I just bought the best one that they would
0:04:49sell me. I just maxed out the RAM, I got the one terabyte SSD. So you know, I forget how much that
0:04:57cost. I think it was like $3,000, $3,500? Sounds about right. Some obscene amount of money.
0:05:02But my thinking is just max it out and I'll use it for at least four years. And yeah,
0:05:08and then by the time I upgrade it'll be nice. But anyway, the color stuff hurts a little bit.
0:05:12So I think, correct me if I'm wrong, you probably know more about this than me. To me,
0:05:18the old consumer gold standard was the SRGB color space. Yes, correct. And the basic gist,
0:05:27if you just want to get a handle on this, is that the new color space that all of these
0:05:31retina displays both the 21 inch and the the 27 inch is significantly bigger than sRGB.
0:05:39It's it's much more of a pro color space. Very much so and very very similar to the kind of
0:05:45output that you're going to get on digital projectors. I'm looking up I'm looking up
0:05:48Renee's FAQ now so I can actually have specific terms. They're using DCI-P3 which is the same
0:05:57color space used by digital movie theaters. And they're using a different LED type display now.
0:06:04It's a more advanced red green phosphor LED, which allows them to do better color balance
0:06:11and hit wider ranges of colors, which that combined with the new color space really,
0:06:15really makes for some crystal clear photos and video. Not that the 5k was hurting in that before,
0:06:23but I do feel that professional professional editors are going to hear that and just be like,
0:06:29damn it, why do I own a Mac Pro? Why do I own a five? Why don't I own this machine? Why can't
0:06:35I just replace it? Oh, wait, I can I just have to spend a ton of money.
0:06:38And I think it's funny. It's funny the way that even with the max, they're sort of as they
0:06:44march towards this all retina lineup. I mean, and it's it's a year by year March, where now it's by
0:06:52far the overwhelming majority of the project products are all retina. Finally, yeah. And it's
0:06:59funny the way it sort of follows like the precedent that they've set with the iPads.
0:07:03Like to me, the 21-inch iMac is sort of like the iPad mini compared to the iPad Air,
0:07:12which is the 27-inch iMac. So it gets everything a year ahead. It goes retina first. Now,
0:07:19year later you can only get the 27 inch in retina and the 21 inch does exactly
0:07:25what the 27 inch did last year which is there's a high-end model with a retina
0:07:30display but you can still get the non retina so my guess is by next year there
0:07:35will be no more non retina IMAX yeah there will only be even higher resolution
0:07:39retina IMAX yeah yeah I I really like this it's a from a business standpoint
0:07:44it seems like a good way to roll things out where they're like oh these displays
0:07:48are too expensive for your average user to want to ponyate to up $3,000 plus dollars.
0:07:54So we're going to put them in the high end models for the people who are really going
0:07:57to appreciate them and be able to spend money on them. And then the more money they spend
0:08:01on them, the more orders that we can place with our suppliers. And the more orders we
0:08:04can place with our suppliers, we can bring the cost down and it just trickles down into
0:08:08the rest of the rest of the line.
0:08:10The what do you call it? The low end model, I don't even know what it used to be, but
0:08:15it's it is kind of a, it's it seems kind of wimpy. It's only 1.6. And I know, you know,
0:08:21like that none of us really talk about gigahertz anymore. I mean, it's it's gotten away from
0:08:27us. But when it's half half the speed in gigahertz as the one that's only $400 more, it kind
0:08:35of sticks out.
0:08:36Definitely an upsell. I mean, I have to assume that these the low end models are really designed for the education market or they're designed for the folks who oh, well, you just need an iMac in your place of business or you need an iMac that's essentially a glorified display to play a movie on.
0:08:53- Yeah.
0:08:54- Because--
0:08:54- I don't know about education anymore
0:08:56because I think that so much of education
0:08:58has gone to laptop form factors of some kind.
0:09:02You know, a lot of Chromebooks, let's, you know, for sure.
0:09:05- No question.
0:09:06- But, you know, it doesn't seem to me like school,
0:09:09and there's like a practical aspect of that too.
0:09:11Like if you're gonna go with iMacs,
0:09:14you need to set them up in a permanent spot.
0:09:17Whereas the whole gist of moving, you know,
0:09:20especially like in what I'm familiar with with my son
0:09:22with the elementary school,
0:09:24it's that they can take the Chromebooks
0:09:27and the MacBooks out when they need them
0:09:31and set them up on the regular desks
0:09:34that they use for everything else.
0:09:35- Yeah, you don't need to go into a separate computer room.
0:09:37I think I'm more thinking administration-wise.
0:09:39- Yeah, exactly.
0:09:40- Where you're looking at, yeah, nonprofits,
0:09:42or people who really don't have a big budget
0:09:45for their electronics, which is sad a little bit in 2015.
0:09:48- Or if you're just gonna use it
0:09:50as the machine at the front desk
0:09:52for people to sign in when they come into the office or something and you really don't
0:09:55need performance.
0:09:57If you haven't switched already to an iPad.
0:10:00What else are people complaining about?
0:10:02I know people are complaining that the hard drive is 5400 RPM.
0:10:09I would rather complain that they're not SSDs in the iMac by default.
0:10:15But you know, I guess if we want to complain about hard drive speed, we can complain about
0:10:19hard drive speed.
0:10:20it has something to do with the 21.5 inches a 2.5 inch hard drive as opposed to a 3.5
0:10:26inch hard drive. So a little bit trickier there.
0:10:29Yeah, and in a weird way, even though it's 21 inches, it's sort of like the in some ways,
0:10:35I think the guts of a laptop.
0:10:38Yeah, well, when you think about how thin the 21.5 inch iMac is, and just how much space
0:10:44of that has to be filled with, oh, you know, giant retina display and cooling said giant
0:10:50retina display, you really don't have all that much more area to put in high level chips
0:10:58without necessarily unless unless they figure out a way to flatten silicon even more like
0:11:02Oh, yes, we're going to line line the edges of the iMac display with with silicon chips
0:11:08now.
0:11:09I did notice too on the 21 inch the storage for flash only goes up to 512
0:11:15So if you want a terabyte you're looking at but I guess that kind of makes sense
0:11:19I feel like because a terabyte of flash storage is still very expensive
0:11:23Relative to hard drive prices for sure
0:11:26And I guess once you're in that sort of budget range, you're looking at the 27 inch anyway
0:11:32Yeah, when I was pricing out my 21 5 and for me, I I prefer slightly the 21 5
0:11:38space for my desk because I I don't know the 27 inch like is gorgeous
0:11:43But I feel myself getting lost in that space especially in retina
0:11:46Or it's just it's too much too much for me unless I'm editing video in which case oh
0:11:50This is nice pixel for pixel 4k is great
0:11:53But when I was pricing out my 21.5 inch iMac
0:11:57I I was looking at the price and I was like alright
0:12:00So I'm upgrading to a fusion drive and I'm upgrading the memory and you know
0:12:05Put in on a magic trackpad because so magic mice and then I'm looking at the price
0:12:10I'm like, this is basically the price of a mid-level to high-level
0:12:1427 inch stock iMac. Yeah, and
0:12:18I yeah, I think you're absolutely right where people look at that price and they're like well
0:12:22But I could go bigger and bigger would make you know bigger is always better, right and
0:12:27For the most part I you know again there are certain circumstances where I actually think a twenty one point five is better than a twenty
0:12:34But I think for the vast majority of users, they're like, oh, I can get a bigger screen
0:12:37for the same amount of tweaking as, you know, I would pay for trying to upgrade the internals
0:12:42of a 21.5. Sign me up.
0:12:45Yeah. Is all of the RAM Do you know this is the RAM soldered onto the motherboard?
0:12:51It is in the 21.5. It is not in the 21.7 which I did or 21.7 the 27 inch. Yeah.
0:12:59So it's just another way where there is sort of a consumer slash pro split between 21 and
0:13:0427.
0:13:05Mm hmm.
0:13:06It's very I think the 21 is still very much marketed towards the entry, not even the entry
0:13:11level user, but the user who either has their first Mac or is about to get their first Mac
0:13:16and needs a desktop over a laptop or an iPad.
0:13:20Right.
0:13:21I kind of feel I understand, you know, the there's a couple people on Twitter and who've
0:13:28emailed me about the soldering of the RAM and it seems like that's a real sticking point
0:13:32for a certain segment of the audience. But I really feel like it's almost like we're
0:13:37lucky that you can do it on any of the machines anymore. It's just not the way of the future.
0:13:44Your computers from Apple come out of China completely set for the most part. So the fact
0:13:54that you can still add your diddle with the RAM on your own on the 27 inch take that as
0:13:58a win and I wouldn't lose much sleep over the 21.5 being you know, you choose eight
0:14:04or 16 and live with it forever.
0:14:06Yeah, exactly. I would I would much prefer to be able to remove and twiddle with RAM
0:14:12and there's an there's a model to do that. But for the again, the average user, I just
0:14:17don't think cares. No, and I feel like it's another it's another way that the iOS devices
0:14:23again, I you know, Apple, people keep asking and Apple keeps saying, No, we're not going to have one operating system for everything. And I really think that they're serious about it. But they are you can see where, you know, one platform is going by where the other platform has gone first. And the iOS hardware model of there's nothing that you can alter or adjust, there's no way to put a memory card in to expand
0:14:52the storage or anything like that is definitely the way the Mac is heading.
0:14:57Yeah, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing anymore.
0:15:02I know there's a lot of people who have been arms, "Oh, it's less repairable,"
0:15:06and "Oh, what if I want to tinker with my computer?"
0:15:09Well, there's still ways to build your own computer.
0:15:11It's just not going to be from Apple.
0:15:15I don't see that there's something wrong with Apple saying, "You know what?
0:15:19We know what the best processors in the market are going to be.
0:15:21know what the the best memory is going to be and we're going to package it up in a you know in a
0:15:26package that actually makes sense for you as a user that would give you real world usage. I mean,
0:15:31we've never been able to tinker with an iPhone's internals. I don't think anybody's complaining
0:15:35about that because most people wouldn't know how to even begin to solder micro architecture. It's
0:15:40only because the IMAX architecture is big enough that we at one point were able to feasibly play
0:15:45around with it that we're like, yeah, we can totally build a better computer than Apple,
0:15:48no problem. Apple's totally wrong. You don't need a gigabytes, you need more than eight gigabytes of
0:15:52RAM. And in that I kind of agree with the general population on but, but still, I don't think that
0:15:58it's necessarily a bad thing. And then lastly, you touched on this a few minutes ago, but it's
0:16:04at this point, and I don't think the Mac Pro is dead. I think that there will be a new one
0:16:09at some point, but who knows when and you don't have to just look at the new Darth Vader Mac Pro,
0:16:17You could just look back at maybe even going back close to 10 years now that the Mac Pro
0:16:23just does not see updates anywhere near on a yearly schedule.
0:16:27No, it will.
0:16:29It does make sense also, to be perfectly honest, because the Mac Pro has such different internals
0:16:34than the other than the other two lines.
0:16:37And because their internals are very, at least at this point, very hog tied to Intel's rollout
0:16:42schedule.
0:16:43Like it doesn't make sense for the for the Mac Pro to be updated until they can have
0:16:47processor that has full Thunderbolt 3 functionality so they could you know say release a retina display
0:16:52with with Thunderbolt 3 so that people could have their their 4k display without an iMac.
0:16:57But it doesn't like I don't know it seems it seems silly to me to push like incremental updates to
0:17:03the MacBook Pro or the Mac the Mac Pro because the only the only people who are buying it are
0:17:09at this point are serious pros because the my Mac has filled that kind of semi pro hole.
0:17:14So if you're buying a serious pro machine, you're only going to upgrade your serious pro machine
0:17:19like we were talking about earlier when your old pro machine is about ready to die or it does
0:17:24something so spectacularly different that it's going to be better for you. Yeah, but for some
0:17:29people I think it's clearly, you know, the big iMac, the 27-inch iMac is the proper pro machine
0:17:37for them. Like I'm thinking like especially like photographers and video editors. Oh yeah. Because
0:17:43of the extra color space because there is no retina display from Apple, you know, the only way
0:17:48to get it anything like a retina display is sort of a hack at this point. With the Mac Pro. It's,
0:17:57I think it's clearly the better machine. But then I wonder if they buy them now are they going to
0:18:02be mad if you know, Mac pros are announced at WWDC or something like that? Yeah, where it's like,
0:18:07oh, now we have a Thunderbolt three retina display. I mean, when you're talking about
0:18:12that kind of a space. It depends on what project you're working on right now, right? If they need
0:18:17retina support, if they're working on 4k video, and actively, you know, doing that for their job,
0:18:23they're going to want a good 4k monitor. And the real question is, well, can I get that from a
0:18:28third party? And is it still going to look great? Or do I want to go to, you know, a machine that
0:18:33has DCI color space and use that instead? And I think that might be the selling factor. Will they
0:18:39will they be then grumpy if Apple's like,
0:18:41"Yes, now we have a pro that supports a Retina display there."
0:18:44But if they needed that functionality six months ago,
0:18:48then that announcement six months later
0:18:50isn't gonna help them.
0:18:51Like it isn't gonna help them finish this project today.
0:18:54- Yeah, maybe, and you know,
0:18:56maybe this is wishful thinking, but maybe once,
0:19:00like I feel like in a lot of ways, all of these machines,
0:19:04the move to Retina has been difficult
0:19:07for every single thing because it's always a lot
0:19:09because you're effectively going to four times the pixels.
0:19:12At some point you're gonna say,
0:19:14here's a new machine that replaces one from last year
0:19:18and it has four times the pixels.
0:19:21Right?
0:19:21I mean, and so like it was a huge deal
0:19:23when the iPhone 4 went red in 2010
0:19:26and the iPad took a while to follow.
0:19:30Macs took a long time to follow
0:19:31and it was only on one model,
0:19:33the 15 inch MacBook Pro at first.
0:19:37And I feel like the Mac Pro is the last
0:19:40and it's the hardest because they can't just seal it all up.
0:19:43Like with the, you know, remember the crazy story
0:19:46about how they got the 5K iMac last year
0:19:49was with this weird internal, you know,
0:19:52how are they driving all those pixels
0:19:54when it seems like there isn't a graphics card to do it
0:19:56and they had to write their own, you know.
0:19:58- Their own, yeah, their own piece.
0:19:58- Video controller.
0:20:00Right, they had to invent hardware to do it.
0:20:03With a Mac Pro, they really are stuck waiting
0:20:05on Thunderbolt 3, because it has to be a cable.
0:20:08- Yeah, they can't write their own graphics controller
0:20:12in a machine that they're not, you know,
0:20:14they just don't have the flexibility right now
0:20:17without having a display that they connect via Thunderbolt 3
0:20:20or something along those lines.
0:20:22- So maybe once they make, this is where I'm going,
0:20:24maybe once they make that leap and maybe, you know,
0:20:26I can't help but think of it, it's a 2016 thing
0:20:30that at some point in 2016, whether it's early in the year
0:20:33WWDC or next October at the latest that they'll have a Mac Pro update and a you
0:20:39know whatever they're gonna call it cinema display, Thunderbolt 3 display
0:20:43whatever but a standalone retina display comparable or even better than the 5k
0:20:49iMac display for Mac Pros but then maybe once they make that leap maybe then the
0:20:56Mac Pro can see a slightly more regular incremental updates because they've
0:21:00already made that jump and they can just sort of keep, keep maintain, right, keep dipping in with
0:21:07the latest and greatest incremental updates from Intel.
0:21:10Yeah, I mean, until until they decide to make another logical leap, which Intel is unable to,
0:21:17it's it feels like that we're talking about power PCs, and we're suddenly in early 2000s. It's,
0:21:23it's so weird to me that all of a sudden, you know, Intel, which we used to hold up this kind of
0:21:27the gold standard of like regular tik tok updates is now very much a little hamstrung
0:21:32where I what the MacBook Pros were waiting on broadwell chips for a very long time. The
0:21:39new IMAX were waiting on Skylake and eventually shipped half and half. Like that kind of stuff
0:21:45is so crazy. The Mac Bros are probably waiting on Skylake and Thunderbolt three to build
0:21:50proper cinema displays. I wonder also how long Apple is going to continue being like,
0:21:56We have to wait around for our manufacturing partners because they've really they've cut most of that out on the on the iOS line
0:22:03You know, they're they're not waiting around for a lot of people because they're building their own chips
0:22:06Yeah, well, I don't know. I don't think they can do that on the high-end pro side within you know with Intel
0:22:12Yeah, not certainly not right now, right? And then even in the foreseeable future if you know we and this is a
0:22:18Rabbit hole we don't have to go down but the whole idea of arm based max
0:22:23clearly in the same way that retina came in at the you know it step-by-step arm-based max if it ever happens are gonna come in not
0:22:31All at once but step by step and it's gonna start with the you know one port MacBook
0:22:36Oh, yeah, it'll start at the very low end
0:22:38I don't even yeah, I can't I can't imagine an art an arm-based Mac Pro is definitely a ways away
0:22:44Yeah, it's possible. But it's you know, that's that's like outside the event horizon. Yes, I
0:22:51I guess the thing that leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth though is that if you are a premium customer at Apple
0:22:57and you have money to burn, it's easy to feel confident that you've got the best thing.
0:23:03Like you can just go in and you know if you're gonna buy an iPhone.
0:23:07If you're willing to...
0:23:10If you like the bigger size or just willing to put up with the bigger size, if you get the 6S+
0:23:15and you max the storage, you know you're getting the best of everything.
0:23:19You've got the image stabilization on the camera
0:23:22and all the best performance.
0:23:25And if you don't like the bigger size,
0:23:27you know exactly what you're missing out.
0:23:28All you're missing out on is the image stabilization.
0:23:31And you've got the best iPhone.
0:23:33iPad, it's really easy to get the best iPad.
0:23:36Everybody knows that the new iPad Pro
0:23:38is going to be the most powerful iPad.
0:23:41And it's the only one that has the new pen-based screen,
0:23:47pencil based screen. I keep calling it a pen. Yeah. So you know, and you know what the trade
0:23:52off is, it's the physical size of the device. And I think what leaves people with a bad
0:23:56taste in their mouths when they've dropped a lot of money on a Mac Pro rig is that they
0:24:01look around and they're like, I don't have the best of anything.
0:24:03Yeah, I'm kind of in this. I'm in this purgatory, this pro purgatory hell. Yeah, I mean, I've
0:24:11talked to a lot of, I have a lot of friends in the film industry and a lot of people have
0:24:16been slowly but surely switching away from Mac Pros. And I guess Mac Pros make sense
0:24:22to a certain extent, I guess, if you want to rig up, you know, a massive,
0:24:24Yeah, and I shouldn't say that they don't have the best of everything. They do have
0:24:27the best expansion. And they do have like, for certain computationally intensive tasks,
0:24:36the having eight cores or however many cores you can max the thing out.
0:24:4016, 32. Yeah,
0:24:41right. You can really you know, you can do there's certain tasks that if you can split
0:24:45them up in parallel like that really you can see tremendous advantages. So there are some
0:24:49but it's a mixed bag where you're trading off like you don't have a display anywhere
0:24:53near as nice as the retina 5k Mac and the fight you know, like a, you know, for $2,000
0:25:00you could buy an iMac with a better display than then the you know, a $20,000 Mac Pro
0:25:05setup could have.
0:25:06Yeah, I mean, the 12 12 core Mac Pro is very impressive inside as you were saying in some
0:25:12respects. But it's interesting to me as somebody who used to live almost obsessively off of off of
0:25:20towers and then later with the Mac Pro, the original sort of pre pre cylindrical pro machine,
0:25:27how much I don't fit into that mindset anymore. Even you know, I don't do nearly as much film
0:25:33editing and editing as I used to. But still, like the iMac really has become I think the desktop
0:25:38machine for 80 85% of the population, including the pros.
0:25:43Yeah, or it just it makes more sense. You don't need well, you
0:25:46don't need the I mean, you think about where the iMac debuted,
0:25:49right. And Apple had this great, this great then and now website
0:25:54that they put up alongside the new iMac. So they're like, let's
0:25:57remember back to 1997 and the original iMac and how much
0:26:01faster our new iMacs are versus that. The iMac when it came out
0:26:05was very hamstrung and very much a consumer friendly, this is the intro, this is your
0:26:10introduction to the Mac line device. And as it's grown throughout the years, it really
0:26:15has, you know, it's been able to beef up what it can do and how it can compete against the
0:26:20Mac Pro. And I mean, retina is only the latest here in a series of dynamic and smart improvements
0:26:26that move it on up, you're still you're not going to get the most cores and you're not
0:26:30going to get the most RAM and you're not going to be able to slot things in and out because
0:26:33the screen is what like an inch thick but but it's it's the better computer for the majority of
0:26:40people and I mean that's that's Apple's goal right they don't want you to have to fiddle around with
0:26:45things yeah I linked to that site the other day the the the then and now comparison to the 98 iMac
0:26:52and it is it's a cool comparison to you know wow how quickly we've you know you know I say quickly
0:26:58but it's been 17 years.
0:27:00But it's-
0:27:00It feels quick.
0:27:01Yeah.
0:27:02But it is interesting to compare it in the context of this discussion of what do you get if you're a
0:27:08pro and you want to drop, you know, get the best rig you can.
0:27:11In 1998, anybody with a Mac Pro or is that what we call Mac Pros back then?
0:27:17They were G4, G3 towers at that point.
0:27:19Power Macs.
0:27:20Yeah, Power Mac G3s.
0:27:21Yeah, Power Mac G3.
0:27:23Would look at the iMac and say, "Wow, that's cute."
0:27:26But there wasn't one single thing about it that was better than, you know,
0:27:30performance wise or decides it display wise that you could drive, you know,
0:27:35you have fun with your little hockey puck mouse and all in one computer. No,
0:27:38you used to get the hockey puck with the power Mac too. It was just, yeah,
0:27:42that's right. That's right. But yeah, but ever anybody I knew with a,
0:27:45with a power Mac upgraded to a Kensington is like, Oh yes,
0:27:48ball mice are superior. Do you know,
0:27:50I I've brought this up many times before over the years, but my wife, Amy,
0:27:54she loved the hockey puck mouse. It is not universally loathed. There were people and
0:28:00my wife was one of them. She used it for years afterwards like on subsequent you know she
0:28:03kept she kept her iMac mouse and moved it from computer to computer.
0:28:08Oh, I still have my hockey puck mouse. I did like it. I didn't like it for certain tasks.
0:28:15But it's cute in its own way. It's it's it's part of the joy of the iMac. I don't know
0:28:20the haters. The haters can go hate somewhere else.
0:28:23Well, hold that thought.
0:28:24I'm gonna do a sponsor read,
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0:31:06So the other new stuff that Apple announced this week
0:31:11with these iMacs are all new wireless peripherals,
0:31:16- New keyboard. - Accessories.
0:31:17- Accessories, new keyboard, a new magic track pad,
0:31:22and a new magic mouse.
0:31:25- I just can't call it the magic mouse.
0:31:26It just makes me crack up every time.
0:31:28I think of like the little cartoon characters.
0:31:30- It's funny because I feel like we get used
0:31:36to Apple's names, and I remember MacBook was--
0:31:41- Oh, MacBook was so hard.
0:31:43- It just seemed, I don't know,
0:31:44it just was really hard for me to get it.
0:31:46And now, you know, it's just,
0:31:49your brain gets bludgeoned into accepting it over time.
0:31:52- It's second nature.
0:31:53You're like, all right, I've given up.
0:31:54I won't call it a PowerBook anymore.
0:31:56Sorry, Apple.
0:31:57- And I understand the logic of it
0:31:59because the power in PowerBook was from PowerPC
0:32:02and it wasn't really branded by Apple,
0:32:05whereas putting Mac in the name really does help.
0:32:07It actually makes some kind of sense
0:32:09that all of the Macs would have the word Mac in them.
0:32:13- Yeah. - Right?
0:32:14I understand that, but MacBook was somehow a mouthful.
0:32:17It just doesn't seem like two words
0:32:19that fit quite as well together as PowerBook did.
0:32:23But to me, calling these things magic,
0:32:28it always embarrasses me every time
0:32:30I have to type it or say it.
0:32:31- Yeah, it feels very, oh yes,
0:32:34these are different than normal accessories.
0:32:37How you ask?
0:32:38They have magic.
0:32:40The magic trackpad, yeah, it still makes me smile.
0:32:44The trackpad, I can kind of understand it because yes, it does, especially with the
0:32:48new improvements to this version of the trackpad where it gets the MacBook's Taptic Engine
0:32:54and Faux clicking so you're no longer depressing a button, you're using the magic of Force
0:33:00Touch and the Taptic Engine to make it feel like you're clicking.
0:33:04Like that, I would actually genuinely use "It feels like magic" because you're not actually
0:33:09clicking on anything.
0:33:10But the mouse is still just a mouse.
0:33:14- Yeah, and I guess that their claim for the magic
0:33:16is that you get both the mouse that moves
0:33:18and you get the, you know,
0:33:21you can do the gestures on the surface.
0:33:24But to me, it's like, that's just the way you, Apple,
0:33:29have chosen to implement the scroll wheels.
0:33:32And, you know, mice have done more
0:33:34than just move the cursor around for--
0:33:36- For a very long time. - A very long time.
0:33:38And it's just an implementation detail,
0:33:40whether you're gonna use a wheel or that,
0:33:43remember that little ball they had for a while?
0:33:46- Oh, so bad.
0:33:47- So truth be told, I have not used an Apple
0:33:52manufactured mouse on a regular basis since the ADB era.
0:33:57- Wow.
0:33:58- The last ADB Apple mouse, which was a one button mouse.
0:34:02I loved it.
0:34:03- Had a good click.
0:34:05- It had a great click and it had a great form factor.
0:34:08it fit my hand the way that I like to hold a mouse.
0:34:11I know ATP has gone long on this a while ago,
0:34:14that depending on when you learn to use a mouse,
0:34:16you grip it in a certain way,
0:34:18whether you rest your hand on it or something.
0:34:20I need like a big, I don't know,
0:34:26like a much bigger mouse than the Magic Mouse
0:34:29to be comfortable. - You need to fit your hand.
0:34:30Yeah, you need it to have a good arc,
0:34:32because it's the exact opposite problem of RSA on a keyboard
0:34:37where you don't necessarily want your wrist arced up.
0:34:40With a mouse, I feel like you need the comfortable arc
0:34:43to rest your hand on it
0:34:45if you're going to be resting your hand on a mouse
0:34:47for a while and going around and clicking.
0:34:49It needs to feel good,
0:34:50and it needs to not feel like your hand
0:34:51is dwarfing the mouse
0:34:52so that you can't actually find the buttons by touch.
0:34:55- So I will confess, the mouse that I use,
0:34:58I don't know if I can get a picture of this.
0:35:00I guess I'll try to, maybe, for the show notes.
0:35:02The mouse that I use is at least,
0:35:06It absolutely, positively, I bought it in the 90s.
0:35:10It's from Logitech.
0:35:13And even in the 90s when I bought it,
0:35:15I don't think I paid more than $14 for it.
0:35:18And it's so old, I swear to God I'm not making this up,
0:35:21it doesn't even have a laser, it has a ball.
0:35:23- Oh man.
0:35:25- And it is super, super precise.
0:35:28I actually, because of RSI issues,
0:35:30I use a third party mouse driver to,
0:35:35What's it called?
0:35:37I had to switch at one point.
0:35:38It's called Steermouse.
0:35:40S-T-E-E-R-M-O-U-S-E.
0:35:42It's from some guy in Japan
0:35:43that lets you set your mouse speed significantly faster
0:35:48than the system mount,
0:35:50the very fastest speed of the system mouse.
0:35:54So I could go, even on my 5K iMac,
0:35:56I can go corner to corner,
0:35:57pretty much without even using my wrist, just my fingers.
0:36:01And the ball on this thing, it's so super precise.
0:36:05It's like a giant 27 inch screen.
0:36:08I have the speed ramped up so far.
0:36:10My son cannot even use it.
0:36:11He thinks it's crazy.
0:36:13'Cause he just, it immediately rams from corner to corner
0:36:18by moving it because it's so, the differences is so subtle.
0:36:21And this mouse, it just has never broken.
0:36:24The buttons still work.
0:36:25I mean, at some point, I guess it's going to break.
0:36:27I mean, every button fails eventually, but it's ancient.
0:36:30But I haven't used an Apple mouse since the '90s.
0:36:32- What is it connected via USB?
0:36:34USB to USB.
0:36:35Okay, so at least it I was gonna ask if you were connecting via SCSI, you know, to some
0:36:39like crazy, crazy setup.
0:36:41I do still have my ADB keyboard.
0:36:43Oh my god.
0:36:44Yeah, you know, I was talking to my dad the other day, right after the new accessories
0:36:49came out.
0:36:51And he's like rolling his eyes.
0:36:52He's like, No, nothing can nothing can be better than my my Kensington trackball.
0:36:57And he still you and this that thing is probably from 1999 too, because I remember using it
0:37:02playing like Star Wars Episode I podracer or something crazy like that. So it's definitely,
0:37:09I feel like people have very specific preferences with their mice.
0:37:12Yeah, I think what I have to do is I gotta get on eBay and start hunting around for like
0:37:17for another copy. Yeah, but I have to get I have to get a new inbox because I mean,
0:37:24there's nothing grosser than using somebody's some mouse that somebody's actually used.
0:37:29years of fingerprints and greasy Cheeto fingers and oh God.
0:37:34- Like I'm, I think I'm pretty,
0:37:36I think I have good personal hygiene.
0:37:40I'm not a real germaphobe,
0:37:42but like I do have some previously used
0:37:45Apple extended keyboard twos, so to back up.
0:37:49But whenever I get a new one, I really do,
0:37:51I get all sort of like CSI, like crime scene,
0:37:55like cleaning up a, like I,
0:37:58I break out the alcohol and the cotton swipes and I go,
0:38:03I get in Q-tips and I get in there and I'll clean,
0:38:06even if it's-- - You just scrub it.
0:38:07- Even if it looks like really like very lightly used,
0:38:10which are the best ones, very lightly used,
0:38:12I'm gonna get in there and scrub it
0:38:13'cause who the hell knows what people
0:38:15were doing with these things.
0:38:16- Oh my God, I mean, I no longer eat food while working
0:38:19or any of that and like my,
0:38:21my keyboard should be pristine
0:38:24and then I'm looking down at it as we're talking
0:38:26and it's like some of the number pad,
0:38:28is just absolutely disgusting, like brown.
0:38:30- I do not eat at my desk either.
0:38:32I gave that up many years ago
0:38:33and I still can't believe how disgusting my keyboard can get
0:38:36if I get real close to it.
0:38:37- Yeah, it's a little bit frightening to me.
0:38:39Well, I know what I'm doing after this podcast.
0:38:42- Yeah, now it does sort of put the heebie jeebies in me
0:38:45and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking,
0:38:46maybe I should just clean, like my own key,
0:38:47even my own keyboard grosses me out
0:38:49like somebody else's.
0:38:50So it's hard for me to really get excited
0:38:54about the new Magic Mouse
0:38:55'cause I know I'm not gonna use it
0:38:57because I know it's the same form factor as the old one.
0:38:59And I know that the old form factor to me
0:39:01is extremely uncomfortable to use.
0:39:03- Yeah, I don't like it at all.
0:39:05My boyfriend has one that he will use on occasion.
0:39:08But I don't know, it just doesn't fit right.
0:39:12The only mouse that I have on my desk right now
0:39:15is a very poor man's attempt at a gaming mouse
0:39:19from Mac Alley from like, I don't know, 2004.
0:39:22That somehow is still working.
0:39:23It's just a four button mouse and a scroll wheel that I used to use for
0:39:27World of Warcraft of all things.
0:39:29Cause you know, you have to do something in college, but I've been,
0:39:32I've been a trackpad user pretty much since,
0:39:34since the original Magic Trackpad came out. Um, I mean,
0:39:38I was on a laptop for most of college and up until, uh,
0:39:42I got hired at Macworld in 2010 and when they hired me, they're like, Oh,
0:39:46you get an iMac. Uh, do you want a mouse or a trackpad? And I'm like,
0:39:49trackpad cause that's all I, that's all I'd been using,
0:39:52aside from the occasional gaming.
0:39:53And that's what I like.
0:39:55I like swipe gestures.
0:39:57And even the mouse with its tiny little swipe
0:39:59just did not feel comfortable to me.
0:40:02And I feel like the original Magic Mouse
0:40:04didn't even have like expose or mission control support.
0:40:08Like it could two finger swipe between Safari windows,
0:40:11but it couldn't do any of the really cool things
0:40:13in the Magic Trackpad.
0:40:14So it always has felt kind of hamstrung to me
0:40:17in comparison to the Trackpad.
0:40:18Like Apple was really only having it to throw a bone
0:40:21to the users who still wanted a mouse to come with their desktop Mac, but especially with
0:40:28the new features of this generation's Magic Trackpad, it just feels like the trackpad
0:40:32blows the mouse out of the water.
0:40:34This is what you should be using with an iMac.
0:40:36I agree with that.
0:40:39I'm sure there are other people who are just so used to a mouse that they...
0:40:41I'm sure that's why Apple hasn't gone all trackpad and why the Magic Mouse still exists
0:40:46and is a thing, but that is the other thing I do have at my desk.
0:40:50I have a magic trackpad.
0:40:51(laughs)
0:40:52I can't say without laughing.
0:40:54I have the old one.
0:40:55I don't have the new one.
0:40:56I have the old one that takes the AA batteries.
0:40:59And I don't use it all the time,
0:41:00but I have it there because for certain tasks
0:41:02in certain apps, I find it nicer to have that.
0:41:06Like if I'm editing an image or something like that,
0:41:09it's nice to have it and be able to zoom in and out.
0:41:11- The zoom, yeah.
0:41:12And for me, I use Mission Control so much
0:41:15'cause I got used to it on my tiny laptops
0:41:18that being able to four finger swipe and get to the desktop and move around and all of
0:41:22that is second nature to me and especially with El Capitan adding in things like swipe
0:41:28to mark as read in mail that it just it just makes it more of a compelling feature for
0:41:33me and now that force touch is added I'm still rocking the the jelly roll the jelly roll
0:41:41magic trackpad with the AA batteries but the idea of force touch being able to do different
0:41:48things in the apps. Right now it's very, very limited because third party app developers
0:41:53really haven't taken advantage of it at all because the trackpad's only been in the in
0:41:57the MacBook, which only a small subset of the population owns. But now that that trackpad
0:42:03is now potentially on potentially compatible with every single Mac in the lineup that runs
0:42:09OS X El Capitan. Every single Mac in the lineup that has Bluetooth 4 and runs OS X El Capitan
0:42:14now has the power of force touch and seeing what it can do just in a couple of different
0:42:19apps, you know, even just QuickTime player, the demo they love, both in the retail stores
0:42:24and when they were demoing the MacBook trackpad is the press a little bit to fast forward
0:42:30and then press really deeply and you can fast forward up to you know, 300 times and then
0:42:34you can lift your finger a little bit and use it like a gas pedal. You know, that's
0:42:38that's a cool proof of concept. But I feel like especially pro level applications, design
0:42:44drawing applications, photography,
0:42:47Force Touch is gonna be a big deal.
0:42:49- Yeah, I agree.
0:42:50I'm tempted by that.
0:42:51Have you seen that there are people complaining,
0:42:56I know Anil Dash tweeted about it, a lot of people.
0:42:59Have you seen it?
0:43:00- The charging?
0:43:01Yeah, yeah.
0:43:02Oh my God.
0:43:03Okay, so yeah, the charging port.
0:43:05Go ahead.
0:43:06- The charging port, it charges by all these new devices,
0:43:08if you're not familiar.
0:43:10One of the big changes in all three of these
0:43:11is that you no longer put batteries in there.
0:43:13batteries. So now does Apple make anything you put batteries in anymore?
0:43:17Maybe the remote? No, because the remote's lightning. Yeah, the new remote for Apple
0:43:22TV is lightning as well. I think we have gotten away from AA batteries, which I am thrilled
0:43:27by because I have so many useless, slowly dying rechargeable batteries. I did
0:43:35that a couple years ago. I bought a whole bunch of rechargeable batteries and it
0:43:39was good when Jonas was a real little kid and was using all sorts of toys that
0:43:42took them. I really don't regret it but no but they they they lose their
0:43:47efficacy. Oh so it's so bad I have a serious I probably have 12 or 14 and
0:43:53it's gotten to the point where I don't know which ones are almost are really
0:43:56poorly charged and which ones are still kind of new. Right because once you've
0:44:00charged them they're all good. Yeah exactly. Yeah there's I wish that they
0:44:03like like like turned a rotten color like yeah. Slowly slowly turned like egg
0:44:08shell yellow or something weird like that. Yeah, my trackpad, I'm lucky if my trackpad
0:44:13and my keyboard last a day.
0:44:15If I had been smart, what I would have done is maybe gotten in the habit of...
0:44:21Marking them or something?
0:44:22Yeah, like a tally mark with a Sharpie. Every time I charge this battery, do a tally mark
0:44:26and you can see which ones you've done the most. But anyway, I've sort of...
0:44:28But now you don't need to do it.
0:44:30But now I've gotten off, I've gotten back to just using door cells. And then I feel
0:44:34guilty about it, though. I really do because I know that, you know, that it's sort of a
0:44:39rotten environment.
0:44:40JADE Well, I don't know, is Philly one of the places
0:44:43in in Boston, you can't throw them away, like you have to dispose of them in a special place.
0:44:48So if you use a non rechargeable battery, at least in my house, it's very much like
0:44:52either. It goes in a bucket where we're like, yeah, we'll take this to the special recycling
0:44:57department someday. And then it just sits there in your house forever and ever just
0:45:01kind of gathering dust.
0:45:02In Philly, we take them to sporting events and throw them at the opposing
0:45:06That sounds like you guys. It's like peanuts, except they're a little bit more
0:45:12more potential of explosion if you set them on fire.
0:45:15Yeah, so the thing with so that here's the thing that is a minor design
0:45:21controversy is that the new Magic Mouse has I think the exact same when it's
0:45:27sitting on a desk it looks identical to the old one has the exact same profile
0:45:31as different feet according to the design.
0:45:35- But I don't think they look different.
0:45:37I think that there's, you know,
0:45:39Steven Levy at Backchannel on Medium
0:45:42had a great behind the scenes talk with the team
0:45:47that made these things.
0:45:48And they talked about how they somehow
0:45:50with the weight being different from the new battery
0:45:53that they had to redesign the feet
0:45:55to make the click sound right.
0:45:57But anyway, the complaint that people have
0:46:01is that the lightning port is on the bottom.
0:46:03So if you want to charge this thing,
0:46:05you have to turn it on its side or turn it upside down
0:46:07and stick a lightning port in.
0:46:09And therefore, while it's charging,
0:46:11you cannot use it as a mouse.
0:46:13And what everybody seems to,
0:46:14or the complainers seem to think is common sense
0:46:17is that the lightning port should be
0:46:18at the front of the mouse so that you could plug it in
0:46:23and use it like you would a wired mouse.
0:46:24- Just use it like a mouse.
0:46:26Yeah, except for the fact that I've seen an Al's mock-up
0:46:31where it's like, yeah, just have this little hole
0:46:33in the front of the mouse.
0:46:34It'll be fine, except I can just see
0:46:37five different people at Apple being like,
0:46:39that is the most hideous thing I've ever seen in my life.
0:46:42And I don't know, it just,
0:46:44on top of that, we should also mention the fact
0:46:48that this mouse does not take
0:46:50a extremely long time to charge.
0:46:53- Two minutes supposedly gives you nine hours.
0:46:55- It gives you a day.
0:46:56So the idea--
0:46:58- So you can charge it.
0:46:59If you came to work and your mouse was dead,
0:47:02you could charge it and you would have to wait
0:47:04to start using it, but you could just use that
0:47:06as like your minute to get your standing points.
0:47:08- Get coffee, yeah, exactly.
0:47:09Or standing points. - Get your standing points
0:47:10for your watch.
0:47:11And then by the time you've got your standing point,
0:47:13your Apple mouse, your magic mouse too,
0:47:18would be charged for the day.
0:47:20And it does give you, the other thing too is,
0:47:23it gives you just, you know,
0:47:25for any of you who haven't used these peripherals,
0:47:27They do, the system is in touch with them
0:47:30and when they get low, you do get a warning on screen
0:47:34and it's not like an emergency warning.
0:47:36It's like, you know, you're gonna wanna charge this thing.
0:47:39- Yeah, you know, I'm actually, I'm kind of mad
0:47:42that the ports are on the back for the Magic Trackpad
0:47:45and the Magic, is it a Magic Keyboard
0:47:47or is it just a keyboard?
0:47:48- Oh, let's see, it's just called a keyboard.
0:47:50- Yeah, this is the keyboard. - No, it is a Magic Keyboard.
0:47:52It's a Magic Keyboard.
0:47:54- It's Magic, Magic all the way down.
0:47:56I think that might be a new name though, because it's the magic trackpad 2 and the magic mouse
0:48:012.
0:48:02But just the magic keyboard.
0:48:03The magic keyboard.
0:48:05Because it has the new not butterfly mechanism, but different scissor mechanism than previous
0:48:10keyboards.
0:48:11Yeah, yeah, I kind of feel like I'm in tune with the standing notification idea where
0:48:17why don't why aren't all of the ports on the underside and then then it just forces you
0:48:22to get up off of your desk while you're charging your accessories.
0:48:25Sorry, your accessories literally are going to stop working unless you get out of your seat.
0:48:30And it seems subversively funny to me. But I honestly don't know what the fuss is about.
0:48:37I think that Apple first and foremost wants to obviously design functional things,
0:48:42but also design accessories that are going to look nice. And the worst thing I think in the world
0:48:49would be to give you a wireless mouse and then be, "Here, we're going to make it so that you
0:48:55that you can absolutely use it as a wired mouse
0:48:57because how many, I don't wanna say stupid idiots,
0:49:00how many stupid idiots are just going to plug in
0:49:03their peripherals and then just keep them plugged in
0:49:05the entire time?
0:49:05Oh, I don't wanna charge them.
0:49:07They are, you know, things always burn down.
0:49:09- I think that if the existing profile of the Magic Mouse
0:49:15had a flat front, then they might've just put the port there.
0:49:20But it's the fact that they're clearly happy
0:49:23with the profile of the Magic Trackpad,
0:49:25where the front and back, it's exactly symmetric.
0:49:29And it has, there is no, there is nowhere for it to go.
0:49:34So anybody who's asking for them to put the port
0:49:38so that you can use it while it's charging
0:49:41is asking for them to redesign the whole mouse.
0:49:45- Yeah. - And I'm not saying that's a--
0:49:46- That's a bad thing.
0:49:47- But it's, it doesn't,
0:49:49it just does not seem like a problem.
0:49:51And I also think, on the other hand,
0:49:54I think exactly what you said,
0:49:55I think it might even be deliberate.
0:49:56It may actually be that they want to discourage people
0:50:00from using it while charging.
0:50:02- Yeah.
0:50:03- But I'm not quite sure then why they didn't do the same
0:50:04with the keyboard and the trackpad.
0:50:06- Yeah, which is my wonder.
0:50:08No, I honestly think that, you know,
0:50:10if you're talking about technology
0:50:13that went into these peripherals, again,
0:50:15the mouse feels like the odd man out here,
0:50:17where the trackpad gets force touch and all of this new,
0:50:19and the keyboard is completely redesigned
0:50:22and should type better.
0:50:23And the mouse is, it has lightning now.
0:50:27I know that there was design work going
0:50:32that went into the mouse
0:50:33because of Steven Levy's excellent article.
0:50:35And also I know that even if something looks identical,
0:50:38Apple spends a lot of time on it regardless.
0:50:41But I do think what you were saying is absolutely correct.
0:50:44Where in order for them to put a lightning port
0:50:47the front and make it not look like a piece of crap, they're going to have to redesign it. And
0:50:52if they're going to redesign the mouse, then they might as well redesign it in such a way that they
0:50:57can also put force touch in it, which I think right now is probably too challenging given
0:51:01the curvature of the mouse and the, you know, current initial limits of force touch. So I mean,
0:51:08it may eventually happen, but I just I think they ran up against time and hardware limitations to
0:51:14to actually put that together.
0:51:16And it's like, well, do you want a mouse
0:51:18that has a port on the front of it
0:51:21for slightly easier charging?
0:51:23Or do you want force touch on your trackpad?
0:51:25Pick one, you can only have one.
0:51:27And I'm guessing the majority of people are going to say,
0:51:31yeah, we'd prefer force touch on the trackpad.
0:51:34Why do we care about a charging port location?
0:51:36- The other thing, last thing about these three peripherals
0:51:41is the price.
0:51:42- Yes.
0:51:43And this is very classic Apple.
0:51:46The keyboard is 99 bucks.
0:51:48- Of course.
0:51:49- Which is a lot for a keyboard.
0:51:50- Was it 79 before?
0:51:52- I think so.
0:51:52The trackpad is $129.
0:51:55And the mouse is, how much is the mouse?
0:52:00- 59, 69?
0:52:01- 79.
0:52:02- 79.
0:52:03So the mouse and the keyboard are the same price.
0:52:06- No, the keyboard's 99.
0:52:07- 99.
0:52:08The keyboard used to be 79.
0:52:10So the mouse moves up to the keyboard's price.
0:52:12The keyboard's a hundred bucks and the trackpad is a very, very quintessential Apple number,
0:52:18$129.
0:52:19Yeah, it's a lot.
0:52:22Yeah, I mean, I understand the technology in the mouse, or in the trackpad at least.
0:52:29Force touch to me seems like the kind of thing where you might need to charge a premium for
0:52:33it based on all of the mechanics that are under the hood.
0:52:36It's not just a mouse, but it's still $129 for a slab of a metal.
0:52:41The Amazon basics three button USB wired mouse is $6.99.
0:52:46What's the Amazon basics wireless mouse?
0:52:51Now it's expensive.
0:52:52That's $11.49.
0:52:54- So if you want a mouse,
0:52:58I seem to remember that in previous iMac versions,
0:53:01you could choose between the mouse, the keyboard
0:53:03or the trackpad and they wouldn't charge you.
0:53:05And now they upcharge you 50 bucks.
0:53:08If you wanna go from the mouse to the keyboard.
0:53:11- You mean the trackpad? - Sorry, that mouse
0:53:11to the trackpad, yes.
0:53:12The mouse to a keyboard is 50, no.
0:53:14- Oh yeah, that used to be like a, that used to be a--
0:53:17- It's a perk, you choose your poison.
0:53:19And now they're actually discouraging people
0:53:22from going to the trackpad, which seems like such a,
0:53:25seems like such the wrong thing to do
0:53:27if you wanna get more people using Force Touch
0:53:29and more people comfortable with a trackpad.
0:53:31Or, and, or you could get both the Magic Mouse 2
0:53:37and the Magic Trackpad 2 for $129.
0:53:39in case you wanted multiple peripherals.
0:53:41Or you could get a wired Apple mouse for no money.
0:53:43- Yeah, I think you're right.
0:53:44I think you're right though
0:53:45that it fundamentally comes down to the fact
0:53:47that Force Touch is the, or 3D Touch,
0:53:50whatever we're calling it, is the new hotness.
0:53:54And it's, you know, it probably is more expensive.
0:53:58I really doubt that it costs $129.
0:54:01- Yeah, that's that much more.
0:54:02- You know, but multiply it by Apple's standard margin
0:54:05and maybe it is the right price.
0:54:09But it really does, it is one of those remaining things
0:54:11that stands out from the Mac
0:54:13and the commodity mouse market.
0:54:17As I sit here and look at this,
0:54:18I just opened up an amazon.com tab and just type mouse.
0:54:23It's like you can find, here's a Logitech for $22.
0:54:27- Yeah, if you want an, and you know what,
0:54:30the high quality mice, that's the funny thing,
0:54:32it's like Rick has a high quality,
0:54:34silent wireless gaming mouse on his on his desk that I'm pretty sure he paid maybe $70 for.
0:54:41Yeah, I'm sure you can but it's it.
0:54:44But even that that's less than the price of the Apple Magic Mouse too.
0:54:49Right. I mean, here's one. It looks like something from Iron Man. YCC team 4000 DPI 10 button LED
0:54:57optical USB wired professional gaming mouse. Why does a gaming mouse need dots per inch?
0:55:02Well, it's for the it's it's the dots per inch is the sensor the laser. Oh, yeah, precise it is. It actually is pretty important. Oh, yeah
0:55:10I've never I've never heard that term because I am a very casual Mac gamer, but that's that makes sense
0:55:16I'm not a gamer
0:55:17I haven't played a game on my Mac and I think over 10 years maybe longer
0:55:21But I'm very sensitive to that because that's why I use my old mouse with the ball because it has a really high
0:55:25Absolutely so I can Jack the speed up with the mouse. So I
0:55:30I that's one of the weird things I know about the gaming world. But anyway, all these mice,
0:55:34like $7
0:55:36Oh boy, but Apple can do it. That's the thing is that they I mean, these the peripherals I know,
0:55:43Renee has been going to the store pretty much every day to try and get them and they are their limited supply every day and every day sold out, sold out, sold out. So people are buying these horrendously expensive peripherals.
0:55:55Yeah, Magic Mouse.
0:55:57Well, I don't even know if it's it is expensive. Yeah, there's no way around it. I don't know
0:56:02that it's too expensive, though. I'm not complaining about it. But it's, you know, it's the price
0:56:07you pay for, you know, Apple's cutting edge stuff
0:56:10for not for for no batteries for lithium ion batteries in a keyboard and a trackpad. I
0:56:16would pay, you know, what 100 $229 for that set. Yeah, um, if I was buying it to upgrade
0:56:22to my current Mac, yeah, I would do that in a heartbeat because anything that requires
0:56:25me never to use batteries again, is worth that upcharge. And Force Touch is worth that upcharge.
0:56:31I do hate that they're referring it to Force Touch as Force Touch on the Mac and 3D Touch on the
0:56:37phone. That is driving me crazy. Well, I think I've asked about it. And it's one of those
0:56:42questions that they have a prepared answer for that doesn't really answer it. Yeah. But they're
0:56:47ready for it. But I think translating it from their non answer to a real answer is, I think
0:56:54it's twofold. I think one, they were calling it Force Touch Everywhere, and then they decided that
0:57:00I think they kind of bought into or at least recognized the arguments that people have that
0:57:04it sounds like it could be a little creepy or violent or something.
0:57:07There's other ways to interpret those words that aren't a positive connotation.
0:57:14And I think secondarily, they've talked themselves into not just renaming it 3D Touch Everywhere,
0:57:23because I think force touch is sort of binary
0:57:28where it's either a regular touch or a force touch
0:57:31and that's it.
0:57:32And 3D touch has, I just read it--
0:57:36- 3D.
0:57:37- Yeah, well it has, it measures degree of touch.
0:57:40- Yeah.
0:57:41- So like just the one way that Apple exposes it
0:57:44currently in iOS 9 is with the peak and pop.
0:57:46- Yes.
0:57:47- Where there's two levels of touch.
0:57:48And I just read an article,
0:57:52I guess I should try to find it in the show notes.
0:57:53I read an article where somebody was playing with the APIs
0:57:55and effectively a developer could probably get
0:57:59six levels of touch if you wanted to.
0:58:01And where you might wanna use that, maybe in a game,
0:58:05some kind of game where you have six levels,
0:58:07maybe for acceleration in a driving or racing game.
0:58:11Maybe in some kind of musical app
0:58:13where you're playing the force touches
0:58:15is trying to get music out of it.
0:58:17- Drums or something like that.
0:58:18- But you can pretty much go like one to six
0:58:20and that's 3D touch.
0:58:23Like it had, you know, and force touch, though, is either just it is a force touch, or it's
0:58:26a regular touch.
0:58:27And that's it.
0:58:28Yeah, well, that's, but that's what it is on the watch.
0:58:30And that's what interests me about the desktop is that the force touch trackpad on a MacBook
0:58:34is not you press or you're not like it does have it does have degrees of sensitivity and
0:58:39layers in it.
0:58:41But they're still kind of playing with that idea.
0:58:43Yeah, I don't know that the API's are there on the Mac, though.
0:58:45Maybe I'm wrong.
0:58:46I don't know.
0:58:47I think they should just call it 3d touch.
0:58:48Yeah, I like 3d touch.
0:58:50I think 3d touch is appropriate.
0:58:51And the interesting thing, it's funny that developers can only access six levels of pressure
0:58:57in sort of apps, because Peter Skinner from 10.1 did, of course, an initial test for the
0:59:03pressure sensitivity in drawing apps.
0:59:05And he was able to detect over 400 potential levels of pressure sensitivity when it came
0:59:10to drawing alone.
0:59:11So there's actually a lot of functionality built into that little screen that maybe isn't
0:59:16quite exposed to developers for regular apps, because maybe it just doesn't make sense to
0:59:20to have that kind of finite pressure.
0:59:23I mean, most, that's so many levels of pressure
0:59:25that the average human is not gonna understand
0:59:28that they've shoved through 50
0:59:30to get from step one to step two.
0:59:33But from a drawing perspective,
0:59:35that's actually really exciting.
0:59:36And one of the things I kind of wanna play with
0:59:38once we get the new,
0:59:39I almost called it the Force Touch trackpad.
0:59:43Once we get the new Magic Trackpad,
0:59:45I'm really curious to see how, you know,
0:59:48if if precious, sensitive drawing is going to be enabled if it's something that the that
0:59:54the Magic Trackpad can do or whether they're going to just limit it to the iPhone for this
0:59:57this time around. Yeah, well, what do you think you would do the drawing with though?
1:00:00I guess? No, I mean, you could do it with a faint to see the thing. The interesting
1:00:04thing for me, at least on a on a Mac, you could use a stylus arguably because that that
1:00:10glass is now so big that it kind of it almost reminds me of like a Wacom Bamboo bamboo tablet,
1:00:16a really early 512 levels of pressure sensitivity tablet.
1:00:21But what would be cool for me is using it in something like Pixelmator or Lightroom,
1:00:27where you use it to shade or to do color correction in various levels where you don't need the
1:00:32specific pinpoint accuracy if you were just drawing very tiny lines.
1:00:39But if you're color correcting or if you're removing splotches or anything like that,
1:00:44being able to have levels of pressure like this is how this is how much I want to you
1:00:49know, this is how much color I want to take away and a desaturation.
1:00:52Yeah, the pressure is more important than the than the pixel precision. Exactly, exactly.
1:00:57At least in these early days, at least in certain tasks like that. Yeah, exactly. And
1:01:02even the pixel precision is not too bad when you have zoom at your disposal. And I can
1:01:06very easily see you pinch and then you use one finger to sketch. Yeah, that's what I've
1:01:12been doing on the on the phone and it's been working really
1:01:14well.
1:01:14All right, let's take a break. And I will thank our second
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1:04:37Anything else on the peripherals?
1:04:43No, I think I'm good.
1:04:45There are peripherals after all.
1:04:46I was thinking-- it seems a little silly
1:04:48because it's only October.
1:04:50And I'm not like a big year in review sort of person.
1:04:53I usually don't do anything like that.
1:04:55But I think we're at the point now, though,
1:04:56where we kind of know everything that Apple's done for 2015.
1:05:00I mean, we're still waiting.
1:05:02Or that they have coming, yeah.
1:05:03The iPad Pro is obviously a huge thing that's coming.
1:05:06It's probably the--
1:05:07It's looming.
1:05:08Right.
1:05:08It's the biggest, literally--
1:05:12well, biggest iOS device, I guess.
1:05:13It's not bigger than a 27-inch iMac.
1:05:15But it's probably the biggest hardware announcement
1:05:18of the year.
1:05:19And we don't have it in our hands yet.
1:05:21But we know it's coming.
1:05:25I think the Apple has shown all of their cards.
1:05:27And it actually is, to me,
1:05:29as much as like for the year or two prior,
1:05:33there were a lot of complaints
1:05:35that Apple was sort of silent for a while.
1:05:37- Wasn't innovating, yeah.
1:05:38- Wasn't innovating.
1:05:39Phil Schiller's "Can't Innovate Anymore My Ass" thing
1:05:42at WWDC, it was obviously frustrating to them.
1:05:45I don't see it.
1:05:46It's one of those things where I feel like
1:05:48you can complain about it when they're quiet for a long time
1:05:50but then when they have a busy year,
1:05:52nobody really says, "Wow, they've really done a lot
1:05:54this year, but they've done a lot this year.
1:05:57- And a spectacular amount when you really think about
1:05:59all of, I mean, they launched an entirely new product,
1:06:04the Apple Watch.
1:06:05- Right.
1:06:06- We got new iPhones, we got new dev kits,
1:06:11two new versions of iOS and OS 10,
1:06:14which people, I think, overlook just how much work
1:06:19goes into creating solid software,
1:06:22and they really did, I feel like make solid software
1:06:24this time around on both iOS and OS X.
1:06:28It doesn't feel nearly as as bunky to me right off the line.
1:06:32We got new iPhones.
1:06:33- Apple TV, I forgot about that.
1:06:35That's still to come too.
1:06:36- That's looming end of October, early November.
1:06:39- I also, I wanna emphasize that as we record this,
1:06:41I do not have an Apple TV.
1:06:43I worry that somebody is gonna go,
1:06:44"Oh, you know, Gruber says, you know,
1:06:46"he's only waiting on an iPad Pro,
1:06:48"he must have an Apple TV in the house."
1:06:49I do not, I do not.
1:06:52But no, but that's coming.
1:06:53And the other two really big things to me
1:06:56are the photos, the new photo, integrated photos
1:07:01that launched in iCloud Photos and Apple Music.
1:07:05And so there's these two things that,
1:07:09music and your photos and videos,
1:07:12that in 2015 Apple has introduced entirely new,
1:07:17and not necessarily in either case seamlessly.
1:07:20- Perfect, yeah.
1:07:21But they've certainly laid the foundation for the future of how people in the Apple,
1:07:27customers in the Apple ecosystem are going to manage their photos and music.
1:07:30Absolutely.
1:07:31And I did a lot of work on both of those topics right as they were coming out.
1:07:37And as the year has progressed, Apple has been very, very good about listening to customer
1:07:44feedback and implementing changes or fixes or bug fixes to make the experience better.
1:07:55I think about the initial iCloud photo library and the new Photos app, I couldn't turn around
1:08:00on the internet, virtually turn around without seeing someone being like, "How dare you!
1:08:04This sucks!
1:08:05I miss Aperture!
1:08:06I'm moving to Lightroom!
1:08:07Everything is terrible!"
1:08:09And now I feel like quite a few people are using Photos, or they're using Google's photo
1:08:14service or they're using you know they've found their photo service or
1:08:17they're willing to give photos a try and there's there's no big calamity.
1:08:20Apple hasn't lost someone's entire photo library. There's no there's been no
1:08:25insanity there. There was a little insanity over Apple music. Yeah let's do
1:08:30photos first because I feel like it was the smoother launch. It was. And I I'm
1:08:35really impressed by it. I really am. I know it works really really well for me.
1:08:40There was one time early on with a photo on my iPhone where I had it... let me see how
1:08:53many photos I've got in there now just to put a scale on.
1:08:56Oh yeah, we can compare.
1:08:58You probably have more, I'll bet.
1:09:00I've got 16,956 photos and 237 videos.
1:09:07You might have me beat on videos, but I'm pretty sure I have you beat on photos.
1:09:10I don't have a lot of videos because I used to store them separately.
1:09:14I do have videos in here.
1:09:15Nevermind.
1:09:16I'm guessing most of that was recently shot, but 26,896 photos, 855 videos and three items.
1:09:26I don't actually know what items are.
1:09:28I had it.
1:09:29I had it.
1:09:30I had a situation early in the summer.
1:09:32Or no, maybe it was at the point where I upgraded to iOS 9 beta on my phone.
1:09:39And it was a beta, so this is why I didn't complain about it publicly.
1:09:43But I had a situation where the count wasn't the same across all my devices.
1:09:48It was slightly off.
1:09:50And I figured it out that it came down to a photo I had taken on my iPhone about two
1:09:56weeks prior, in which I had edited.
1:09:59I forget if I only edited it, I did it on the phone and I forget if I use the photos
1:10:03app on the phone to adjust the color or something or if I used like Afterlight or one of those
1:10:09third party apps that lets you modify images on your photo roll in place without making
1:10:14a copy. But it was edited and for whatever reason it was not able to sync that photo
1:10:20to iCloud. So I emailed it to myself so I'd have a copy of the edited version. Then I
1:10:28deleted it. And then everything got caught up. And then I took
1:10:33the emailed photo and put it back into photos. So one time,
1:10:36and it was with a beta. So I'm not complaining. And ever since
1:10:38then, it's, it has been great.
1:10:40Yeah, well, I and I think, you know, comparing this a little
1:10:44bit to the Apple Music Rollout, the beta process was really
1:10:48important for this, being able to have the months where they're
1:10:52like, Yes, this is beta, we definitely want people to come
1:10:56play and in the beta. So please, if you're interested, but this is a beta service, and
1:11:01please be advised, this is a beta service and please back up your photos. And once people
1:11:07I think, realized, well, first of all, knew that going in and also were able to figure
1:11:14out Oh, this is the difference between storing all of your photos on your device and optimizing
1:11:19storage. And this is what this app gets me that aperture Lightroom does not. They had
1:11:25more time to kind of figure all of that out. I too had I had one really bad
1:11:29photos experience. And that was mostly I had at this at the time that photos was
1:11:36released, or initially sort of announced, I was really excited about this because my
1:11:41photo library had been spread across four different computers. And I thought at one
1:11:46point, I had it all localized on the 15 inch iMac. But as as time went on, it kind
1:11:50of more and more got over to my 15 inch MacBook Pro. As time went on, it became more on on
1:11:56my old 21.5 inch iMac and a little bit on my on my, my MacBook Air and I was just saving
1:12:03like giant folders of iPhone images. Every time my iPhone would get full, I'd I just
1:12:08dump everything up via image capture into a folder and just shove it into Dropbox. So
1:12:13it was like there was some canonical version of my photos somewhere. And when I went to
1:12:19merge everything into photos, one, my MacBook Air library wouldn't sync. And eventually I just had
1:12:25to create a new, I had to create a new library and pull down all of the photos from the cloud and
1:12:32then upload everything it was trying, it just got into a terrible loop where it was trying to
1:12:36download and upload at the same time. And they just, you know, essentially the, you know, the
1:12:40virtual pipe was clogged, so nothing could get anywhere. And it just said uploading forever. But
1:12:45But again, once I like that was a very simple troubleshoot,
1:12:49and I talked to Apple, almost immediately got that fixed.
1:12:52And once I got that fixed, no problems.
1:12:54Everything's great.
1:12:56- Yeah, the other thing that really works well,
1:12:57and it sounds simple,
1:12:58and I know there's other services that do this.
1:13:00I'm not saying Apple has invented anything.
1:13:02I'm just saying that at scale,
1:13:04for all of the people who use iCloud Photos,
1:13:07it seems to be working well,
1:13:08is the way that like you can say
1:13:11whether or not you want all of your photos
1:13:13on this device or not,
1:13:14or you would just want the thumbnails
1:13:16and pull them down over the cloud as needed to save space.
1:13:19And having gone through the, again,
1:13:24I'm not complaining, it's great that I get access
1:13:27to the iPhones and stuff beforehand,
1:13:29but I set up an awful lot of iOS devices every year
1:13:32'cause I get two new iPhones and then I buy my own iPhone.
1:13:34Having set up my own iPhones for personal use a lot
1:13:40and over the last month or two,
1:13:42it's worked really, really great
1:13:44where it's obviously they're not, you know, 16 or 17,000 photos, even the thumbnails are not there, you know, a minute or two after you unlock, you know, unwrap the phone. But, you know, within a very reasonable amount of time they are and it's, it's, to me, really impressive. And it solves a problem that we've, you know, had for a long time.
1:14:03Yeah, well, just the not having to worry about what device I take photos on is huge. And not like in it just in every day to obviously, most people don't necessarily have a job where they're taking tons of product photos on maybe and then uploading them to one machine and maybe need access to them on another machine at a later point in time.
1:14:25But that kind of workflow, I feel like,
1:14:27is universal for different documents,
1:14:29and Apple seems to have really done a great thing
1:14:32with photos where I can, again, snap a screenshot
1:14:35or snap a photo of an Apple Watch dock,
1:14:39and three seconds later it shows up on my Mac
1:14:41where I need to upload it to our CMS for our website.
1:14:46And that, it just, it makes it easier.
1:14:49I don't have to worry about where my photos are,
1:14:51'cause I know that, okay, they're all in the cloud,
1:14:54And then I have a backup, a physical backup on one of my computers, and then I have a double backup in Dropbox.
1:15:00Yeah.
1:15:01And it's like, that's, it's just, it feels really nice.
1:15:04The one, the one niggle that I have with Optimize Storage is that I do wish that your favorites album was automatically stored on device.
1:15:13Like, I wish there was an album that you could just be like, "This album needs to be stored locally."
1:15:18because the annoying thing of like tapping something
1:15:22that you wanna share with somebody
1:15:23and then seeing the slow download icon
1:15:26and realizing currently iCloud Photos is limited to Wi-Fi
1:15:30to download any photo.
1:15:32So if you wanna get an old photo from 1996
1:15:35or something that you have stored,
1:15:37chances are if you haven't looked at it frequently,
1:15:39it's stored up in the library.
1:15:41It's not stored on device if you have Optimize on.
1:15:43And if you're not on Wi-Fi, you can't download that.
1:15:46And so all you can see is this really blurry picture.
1:15:48Even if you're just looking at,
1:15:50you wanna just browse photos
1:15:51while you're stuck on an airplane or something.
1:15:53That's a little frustrating, but it's not, you know,
1:15:57it's not a deal breaker.
1:15:58It's not necessarily something where I'm like,
1:16:00"Apple, how could you?"
1:16:01But it would be nice to have like,
1:16:03to have a space of like,
1:16:04"These photos will always stay on my device.
1:16:06I always wanna look at these pictures of my pets."
1:16:08- That's the, it's either the default
1:16:11or it's the only way you get photos
1:16:12onto your Apple Watch too.
1:16:14- Yeah. - At least the default
1:16:15is that you favorite them
1:16:17and then the favorites are on the watch.
1:16:19- Yeah.
1:16:20- I don't know if you can also,
1:16:20is there a way that you can manually
1:16:23specify a different album?
1:16:24- You can specify a different album on the Apple Watch,
1:16:27but it is albums only and favorites is the first option.
1:16:30- Right. - Yeah, the default.
1:16:31- So out of the box, that's what happens.
1:16:33Yeah, I'm looking at it right now.
1:16:35Yeah, synced album, favorites.
1:16:37- Yeah.
1:16:38- But anyway, long story short,
1:16:40I think it's really been a good year for photos
1:16:43and I am really intrigued to see where they go going forward
1:16:48because it's one of those things where I feel like,
1:16:50it's the same thing as I trying to get everything
1:16:52across the board to go retina,
1:16:53where you need all of these things in place first
1:16:56and some of that stuff you just have to wait for.
1:16:58And I feel like being able to say, it doesn't matter,
1:17:01you know, like if you have a standalone camera
1:17:05and you then hook it up to your Mac
1:17:07and you import them into photos,
1:17:10a week or two later, you forget what you took the photos of.
1:17:12just know you took a photo of, you know, your relatives birthday
1:17:16party. And the fact that it's just there on your phone, what
1:17:19even if you didn't take the photos with your phone is great.
1:17:22I'm really interested to see though, if if what they do like
1:17:26for next year with photos is start beefing up, especially the
1:17:31Mac version to be more of a prosumer photo editing tool.
1:17:36I'm hoping so.
1:17:38I hope so too. And my concern though, is that because
1:17:41everything is everywhere and that they're non-destructive that the Mac,
1:17:45what the Mac version of photos can do isn't limited by what the Mac can do but
1:17:49it's limited by what iOS can do. Yeah well I mean there's already there's
1:17:55already some disparity there because the iPhone has of course non-destructive
1:18:00third-party edits and the Mac did not get that option for app extensions until
1:18:05this fall and even then there those are limited to device so if you if you end
1:18:11edit something on your iPhone, say with like the Pixelmator extension for iPhone, and then
1:18:17you import it or you open it up in the Mac. You can't open it with the Pixelmator extension
1:18:22for Mac inside the Photos app. You can revert it so you can take off all of the edits, or
1:18:28you can add a top of it, but you can't, once you've changed those sliders, if you open
1:18:32it up in the Mac and start to apply new more edits, you lose the previous ability to edit
1:18:40- But if you just look at it, you do see the edits
1:18:44that you did in Pixelmator.
1:18:45- Yes, you do.
1:18:46- So I guess that's one way to do it,
1:18:48where the Mac could gain a lot of built-in serious stuff,
1:18:52and then when you open it up on the iPhone, you'd see them,
1:18:54but then if you tried to edit it, it would warn you
1:18:57that you either need to make a copy of it
1:18:58or revert or something.
1:19:00- Yeah, exactly.
1:19:01- I could live with that.
1:19:03And that's sort of, I think, the best we can hope for.
1:19:06- Yeah, well, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily rule out
1:19:10pro version of photos. But I do think there's enough there are enough things to make improvements
1:19:16to in the initial app where I think the initial app is a very solid one over lease. But there
1:19:21are still there are definitely there are definitely tools that a that would be great for a prosumer
1:19:25app, or a you know, a consumer leading to like doing the slow stepping stones, they've
1:19:31already done a great job, even with the editing menu of making potentially, you know, severe
1:19:36and an expansive color correction available to somebody who doesn't really know much.
1:19:43Where you just start with this slider from light to dark and then you can drop it down
1:19:48and it becomes more expansive and more in depth and then you can add extensions if you
1:19:51really want to play around.
1:19:53And oh, I've messed this up.
1:19:54It's just a reset button away.
1:19:56Yeah.
1:19:57So huge year for photos, in my opinion, Apple Music, the next thing.
1:20:02This is the part.
1:20:03Apple Music to me still, it confuses me.
1:20:06Yeah, you know, this is really the main reason I wanted you on the show is I want you to
1:20:10explain Apple Music to me.
1:20:12Okay, well, what would you like to know about Apple Music?
1:20:16How am I how am I supposed to use it?
1:20:19Okay.
1:20:20So do you do you want to use Apple's catalog of song?
1:20:27Like would you like to access Apple's catalog of artists?
1:20:29I guess I think what I need to do here's what I think I need to do.
1:20:32I think for safety sake, I have backups, but I think I need to make like an entire copy
1:20:37of my music library.
1:20:38Yes, I think that's wise.
1:20:40Which is largely ripped, but I have had the match service for, you know, ever since it
1:20:46came out.
1:20:50And make a copy, and then I have all of my ripped stuff that I've had for, I don't know,
1:20:5415 years now.
1:20:57And then just go with Apple Music.
1:20:59Yeah.
1:21:00What I would suggest, if you're starting from scratch and you want to go into Apple Music,
1:21:05you make a copy of your library.
1:21:08For that new copy of your library, if you want to start just absolutely clean, what
1:21:13you can do is create that new library and then I think there's a checkbox that allows
1:21:17you to add songs but keep the linked locations absolute, which is to say if you have all
1:21:25of your songs packaged in your original iTunes Music Library. When you add them to the second
1:21:32library, it doesn't create a second copy of those songs. It's just it's it has a provisional or I
1:21:37forget what that's called a symbiotic link from from the original library to your to your new
1:21:43library and alias basically,
1:21:45John "Slick" Baum: similar to to the way again, to compare it to photos similar to the way that
1:21:49when you imported your iPhoto library to the new photos, it didn't make copies of everything.
1:21:54It used Simlinks to have what looks like two copies of it,
1:21:58but both pointing to the same stream of bytes on disk.
1:22:02- Exactly, so you can faux do this.
1:22:05And then once you have that second library,
1:22:06you turn Apple Music on for that library and your Apple ID.
1:22:10It's tied to your Apple ID.
1:22:11That's the, I think, one of the most important things
1:22:13that people kind of overlook.
1:22:14It's tied to your Apple ID, you turn on Apple Music.
1:22:18And the big difference between having just Apple Music
1:22:23as your Apple Music service of choice,
1:22:26or having iTunes match, or having both of them together,
1:22:30is that Apple Music alone gives you access
1:22:32to Apple's catalog, so you can stream any of their songs
1:22:35or their artists.
1:22:37It lets you play songs that you yourself own,
1:22:40as well as the Apple Music catalog
1:22:42on any of your devices, up to 10.
1:22:45But when you, or if you cancel that service,
1:22:51that streaming on extra devices thing goes away.
1:22:55And all of those songs that you've streamed
1:22:57or downloaded to another device gets deleted,
1:22:59whether or not you own them.
1:23:01Extra auxiliary devices
1:23:04and all of your Apple Music catalog goes away.
1:23:08So you're left with just the original songs you had
1:23:11on your original computer.
1:23:13The difference between that and iTunes match
1:23:17is that of course in iTunes match,
1:23:19when you you're able to stream or download your songs that you own to any other computer that has your Apple ID. But when you download those songs onto an auxiliary computer, those songs stay there forever, whether or not you cancel out iTunes match or not, they are they are forever on your auxiliary computer unless you delete them. They are there they are DRM free, they're awesome. So if you just use Apple Music and you cancel iTunes match, then your your
1:23:48collection, the songs you own that you stream or download to other computers will show up
1:23:53as Apple Music tagged if they can match to that catalog. And if you cancel Apple Music,
1:24:00those songs on those auxiliary computers will disappear. So if you want them to retain whether
1:24:06or not you choose to keep Apple Music, then that's when you keep the two subscriptions
1:24:10running concurrently. So you have Apple Music and iTunes match.
1:24:13Do you think it makes sense? Do you have both? Do you still have both?
1:24:17I still have both in part because I'm testing a million things. But no, I, I have both because
1:24:25I have a canonical music library on my iMac. But I still I will download some things to
1:24:31other to other computers. And I don't want my you know, the my local music library on
1:24:36an auxiliary computer to vanish if I decide to cancel Apple music, because then I would
1:24:41have to go and re you know, re import everything onto an auxiliary computer or I'd have to
1:24:45enable iTunes match. And that seems like a like work. And it's like $25 to never have
1:24:52to worry about that work again. Yeah, I can I can pay 25 bucks a year.
1:24:56Yeah, 25 bucks a year is like underneath my I give a shit threshold. Yeah, exactly. The
1:25:021499 a month for the family plan of Apple Music is I want to make sure we're actually
1:25:07listening to this. Yes, exactly. It's like this is actually this is a bill this adds
1:25:12up to a significant amount of money per month. I like despite all of the insanity with Apple
1:25:17Music, and I really do think that the difference between the the photos around the photos rollout
1:25:23and the music rollout is that music didn't have a beta period with people. And if they had had
1:25:30a beta period with enough with a cup, you know, a couple hundred, like even 510,000 subscribers
1:25:37would be enough to hash out most of the terrible bugs they saw. Like the fact that Apple Music
1:25:43or Apple Music and iTunes match users were seeing their songs matched as Apple Music. That was a bug
1:25:50that was fixed within the first 48 hours. But despite it being fixed in the first 48 hours,
1:25:55people went crazy over it for about a month and a half.
1:25:58Yeah, that's a really keen observation. I really think it's that, you know, that iPhoto or Photos
1:26:05had a beta and they worked out these kinks and music was like all of you go sign up for this
1:26:11free service now for three months and they worked out the kinks like on the fly and it really did
1:26:17leave a sour taste in people's mouths. Yeah and honestly because it was free they really could
1:26:21have just said three free free or free three month trial and this is our beta period. This summer is
1:26:28our beta launch off period for Apple Music. That's what I mean looking at Beats 1 I listened to Beats
1:26:33one a lot in the early days, in parts because I was writing about it, but in part just because it was
1:26:37it was such a curiosity to me. As someone who hasn't listened to terrestrial radio in about 12
1:26:41years, it was such a curiosity and such an interesting like highbrow, can you make this work?
1:26:46But but beats one was very much in their initial two months. And even I mean, that interview with
1:26:52same low that he gave recently at the BBC, or he was basically like, we are figuring this stuff out
1:26:59by the seat of our pants. This is very much a beta for us. And we won't know exactly what
1:27:04Beats 1 is or how it fits into the overarching theme of Apple Music for about a year. Like,
1:27:09we need this time to build it. We built the station in 12 weeks. We need this beta period.
1:27:15And so that side was very, very honest and straightforward, even on the air,
1:27:20being like, "We're just trying this out. Let us know what you like. Let us know what you don't.
1:27:24we can, you know, we want to work with you. We want to be your station. And the rest of
1:27:29Apple Music was very like, this is how it is. This is Apple Music. Enjoy Apple Music.
1:27:34How do you think it's going now that the for everybody who signed up right away the three
1:27:40month beta, or not beta, but trial, yeah, reading your mind. The trial, the three month trial is
1:27:47over. And people got the notices like, hey, you're gonna get charged unless you cancel.
1:27:53How do you think they're doing now? It's hard to say because I don't think they've announced
1:27:56anything. No, and I don't think they will for a little bit. I do think that probably 50 plus
1:28:02percent canceled. But I don't actually think that's a bad thing. I think that they need to do a
1:28:07little bit of retooling. And they, I pretty sure kind of realized that they need to do a bit of
1:28:12retooling in terms of what's really valuable. Their streaming catalog is fantastic. You know,
1:28:17as someone who is still an Apple Music member, their streaming catalog is fantastic. The four
1:28:21you suggestions are very, very good, especially if you continue to listen and like these things
1:28:28and like and try and and try and refine your tastes. Their their curation engine is is
1:28:34really pretty good. And Beats 1 is really fun. Despite not being a terrestrial radio
1:28:39person, like I will tune into that because it feels it almost feels like being in an
1:28:44office as a work at home person where it's like, oh, there are people occasionally talking,
1:28:48And they're talking about interesting music related things.
1:28:50It's not like the daily local news in your area.
1:28:53And it's not something so depressing as NPR to get you kind of,
1:28:57to get your stomach in knots.
1:28:59It's just kind of light, fun, interesting content and
1:29:02good music you might not have otherwise heard.
1:29:05So I think there are quite a few people who are still kind of hanging on and
1:29:08have gotten addicted to certain aspects of the service.
1:29:12But for the wide audience, Apple needs to put a little bit more work into it.
1:29:17to really make it launch off.
1:29:19And one of the biggest things they can do
1:29:22is revamp iTunes on the Mac,
1:29:24because right now it's still a mess is the polite word.
1:29:29I could say much more horrible things, but I will decline.
1:29:36But the music app, the new music app in iOS 9,
1:29:41people are still complaining that it's messy,
1:29:43but it's slightly, it's less messy.
1:29:44It's slowly like they're iterating on this
1:29:46and being like, okay, this is what works,
1:29:47this is what doesn't.
1:29:50Turns out we don't need a more button
1:29:52that's gonna last 15 links worth of more button.
1:29:56We can work around this.
1:29:58iTunes still feels gigantic and bloated and uncomfortable.
1:30:03- And it's just awkward in weird ways.
1:30:05I think I told you this story over the weekend
1:30:06when you were here in Philly for the Coco Love Conference.
1:30:09- For Coco Love, yeah.
1:30:09- And we hung out a little bit.
1:30:12But long story short, my wife had a playlist,
1:30:16new playlist she made on her Mac and she just wanted to send it to her phone and go to the
1:30:20gym. And the way the new iTunes works, it's like you, there's like this weird dot dot
1:30:26dot button, and you select the playlist and then you go to the dot dot dot. And then it
1:30:32just says send to device and then there's her iPhone and she'd click it. And it which
1:30:37seems like that's what you do. And then if you Google, you know, search for how you're
1:30:40supposed to do this, it says that's how it's supposed to do. And it never just it just
1:30:44never showed up on our iPhone. And long story short, I think that solution was to turn off
1:30:49Apple Music on all of our devices and just do it the old fashioned way and connect it
1:30:55to USB and then the dot dot dot send to this phone worked.
1:30:59Yeah, because you're actually sending it over tethered connection. It's such a mess. It's
1:31:02such a mess. But if you have Apple Music turned on, it's like even having a tethered connection
1:31:06doesn't make it work. That's even worse sometimes like some of some of my playlists show up
1:31:10some of my playlists don't still at this at this day. It's like Apple, this is the
1:31:14that's the kind of stuff that could have been really valuable during a three month
1:31:17beta test of like me. Hey, there's some playlist problems. Let's actually find
1:31:22out. And I find it really interesting. I don't know if you saw this week. Apple
1:31:26launched an Apple Music Help Twitter account. No office hours. No. Yeah. So
1:31:33app at Apple Music Help for people's Apple Music questions. And they have
1:31:38office hours from I think eight to six either GMT or ESTI. I need to actually
1:31:43look. But I saw that and I quite literally laughed out loud because
1:31:50that's what I have been doing for the last three months on
1:31:54and off is being people's like Apple Music guru on Twitter and now I can be
1:31:58like go talk to them they've actually built this thing like I will
1:32:02happily help you stumble like try and stumble through your problem with you
1:32:06But maybe the people who have access to the engineers can fix your more high-level problems,
1:32:12like the fact that pressing the "Like" button refines your tastes, but also there's no way
1:32:16to save a song you like as a favorite without adding it to your library, and then it goes
1:32:21into the mass of the bottomless pit of library.
1:32:26That's really awesome.
1:32:28The Top Pin tweet, in fact, answers my question.
1:32:31It is, "Create a playlist with your favorite songs in Apple Music."
1:32:35Huh, there you go
1:32:37Obviously, obviously, it's a frequently asked question
1:32:39Anyway, but isn't that that is sort of a fun, you know again not to really pretend like it's
1:32:48New Year's already but and and get all sanguine about and talk about 2015 in the past tense, but
1:32:54Among other things that have happened this year. There's you know, it has been a sort of
1:33:04quote unquote, new Apple, you know, things that Apple does that they wouldn't have done
1:33:07before. And I think having a Twitter account with office hours is file that under things
1:33:13Apple wouldn't have done before.
1:33:14Yeah, the new giving, given Steven Levy access to the the design team and actually having
1:33:21like people's not only people's names associated to what they were doing, but people's faces
1:33:25and pictures inside. It was just one of those things where I'm like, I would have never
1:33:29seen this story five or six years ago. And I'm really glad to see this story and hear
1:33:33more about the inner workings of Apple. I'm really glad that Apple is reaching out for
1:33:38help and support beyond just the standard disclaimer, "Go see AppleCare." I'm glad that
1:33:44developers are getting more of a voice on Twitter without worrying that the full wrath
1:33:50of PR is going to come and eat them alive and then they'll never be seen or heard from
1:33:53again. It's a really interesting sea change. And then you... Sorry, go ahead.
1:33:59- Well, one of the things, I would like to see it,
1:34:02and I've been on this for years,
1:34:03I haven't talked about it frequently,
1:34:05but years ago, I don't know, five or six years ago,
1:34:07I did a talk at Macworld back when Macworld,
1:34:11San Francisco was still a thing.
1:34:13It was like my top 10 things to be,
1:34:16things to look at for the future,
1:34:18things to worry about Apple, top 10 list.
1:34:20And one of them was that I wanted Apple to go back
1:34:26to letting the people who make the software
1:34:30put their credits in the about box.
1:34:33- Yeah.
1:34:33- Like, the whole reason about boxes were there,
1:34:36that that's a thing in Mac apps,
1:34:38originally it was so that the people who made the things
1:34:43could get credit for them.
1:34:45And it went away when Steve Jobs came back in 1997, '98.
1:34:50And now the about boxes are almost useless,
1:34:54and it's standard across all of their software,
1:34:55where it just has the icon, the name of the app,
1:34:58the version number, and a copyright, and that's it.
1:35:01It's almost like, why do it?
1:35:03It's just the only thing you really get out of it
1:35:05is a version number.
1:35:05And the idea that Jobs gave back in '98
1:35:09was that Apple was in bad shape, and their talent,
1:35:11they did it, the one thing the company had,
1:35:13the company was in bad shape,
1:35:14but it had lots and lots of talent,
1:35:15and he was really almost pleasantly surprised
1:35:18by the amount of talent, engineering,
1:35:20and the fact that Johnny Ive and his team are already there.
1:35:23- Didn't want them to be stolen?
1:35:25Well, yeah, it was like an anti-poaching thing.
1:35:27But that is such-- the way the world works today, nobody needs
1:35:32to-- nobody who's a recruiter trying to poach Apple employees
1:35:35needs the About box to figure out who wrote this app.
1:35:39No.
1:35:40And there is obviously-- I mean, I don't use LinkedIn,
1:35:44but I mean, thousands and thousands and thousands
1:35:47of Apple employees are on LinkedIn.
1:35:48I mean, there's all sorts of-- and I'm
1:35:51sure that the best recruiters don't even need to do that.
1:35:54They have other--
1:35:54- They know it.
1:35:56- Right, like the difference between the current world today
1:36:00and the world where Apple employees got to put their credits
1:36:04in the about boxes for the apps that are in the system,
1:36:06the difference in the amount of talent that gets poached
1:36:10is I think effectively zero.
1:36:13- Yeah.
1:36:14- Like that's not a good reason to do it.
1:36:15And I think that being able to sign your work,
1:36:17to me it's just an important part of,
1:36:22It's just like a point of pride.
1:36:25- Absolutely.
1:36:26Well, it's also nice.
1:36:27I mean, you know Apple employees,
1:36:30I know Apple employees and former Apple employees.
1:36:33And when you're working on something that's secret,
1:36:36all you can really say is I work in this team
1:36:39and you don't want them to say anything more
1:36:41because you don't want them to get in trouble.
1:36:42But after a feature ships, you know,
1:36:45they can say like, "Hey, I worked on that.
1:36:47"That thing in the keynote,
1:36:49"that was partially my, you know, something that I did."
1:36:52And I like that.
1:36:54I like, again, like you said,
1:36:56I like the idea that our friends and Apple,
1:37:00people who work at Apple can sign their work
1:37:01and can be proud about their work
1:37:03because they spend so long and under such levels of secrecy
1:37:07to get it right and get it perfect
1:37:09and just make a great product,
1:37:12whether that's hardware or software.
1:37:14And when it comes out,
1:37:15I love what Tim Cook has been doing
1:37:17at the last couple of events,
1:37:18which stand up if you worked on this.
1:37:20Like let's acknowledge these people
1:37:21and not have them hide in the shadows.
1:37:24- Jobs did that too sometimes.
1:37:25But I don't know, I just feel like letting,
1:37:29making the about box is relevant again
1:37:30as just the credits,
1:37:32let it be the credits for the software, I don't know.
1:37:34And I feel like that kind of fits with the way
1:37:37that Steven Levy's behind the scenes of the new peripherals
1:37:40got to talk to people who actually designed them
1:37:43and worked on them and stuff like that.
1:37:46- Yeah, it's very cool.
1:37:49Let me take another break here and thank our next friendly sponsor.
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1:41:45What else do you wanna talk about?
1:41:50- Gosh, we can talk about the Facebook brouhaha.
1:41:53- Ooh, that's a good one.
1:41:55If you're talking about the same thing I'm thinking about,
1:41:57which is the thing-- - Yes, we were talking
1:41:58about yesterday.
1:41:59- With Federico pointed this out.
1:42:02- Yes. - Do you wanna summarize this?
1:42:03- Yeah, so Facebook eats a lot of an iPhone's battery
1:42:08and it's traditionally eaten a lot of the iPhone's battery
1:42:12which is why at least I'm more we recommend
1:42:14turning off background processes.
1:42:16But in iOS 9, we were able to see not only is Facebook
1:42:21eating a lot of your battery and you can see
1:42:23in terms of the battery screen and percentages,
1:42:26but you can now tell what specific processes
1:42:28Facebook is using and it turns out even if you have
1:42:32background processing turned off, Facebook can still eat your battery with
1:42:36background audio. And what Federico Petici theorized, and based on some very
1:42:44clever sleuthing on his part, is that Facebook is likely playing silent audio
1:42:50to keep the app running and active in the background. And I don't know if that
1:42:55that is helpful for them on the ad side too, but it's insane to me. Like what
1:42:59It's such, I feel so dirty.
1:43:02- It feels downright malicious.
1:43:04- Yeah.
1:43:05- And honestly, the thing that occurs to me is,
1:43:09it doesn't really matter what they're doing.
1:43:11If it's like they're, check out this tweet.
1:43:14And this is a tweet from somebody.
1:43:16I actually checked with this guy.
1:43:17I don't know his real name.
1:43:18His Twitter account is just his first name, Chad.
1:43:21But he tweeted a screenshot.
1:43:24He added me and Jim Dalrymple and Phil Schiller.
1:43:27- Yeah. (laughs)
1:43:28And this is his usage from, I guess that's an iPad, right?
1:43:33- Yeah, that's an iPad mini.
1:43:36- His battery usage on iOS 9 was 75% of his entire battery
1:43:44was consumed by Facebook,
1:43:47and it was only two minutes on screen.
1:43:50This is so, if you haven't looked at this,
1:43:52if you go to the usage in iOS 9,
1:43:55Apple's really gotten this to a very fine-grained breakdown.
1:44:00And the number one thing to remember is in most apps,
1:44:04the thing that kills your battery the most
1:44:06is making the display go.
1:44:09And so knowing how much of your time,
1:44:11so now that they tell you how much of the time
1:44:13was on screen and how much was in the background,
1:44:16it can really tell you, hey, maybe it's actually okay
1:44:20that Tweetbot used 38% of my battery because,
1:44:24"Wow, I was on it for three hours."
1:44:26And at the screen level.
1:44:27- Yeah, you're like, "All right, all right, I understand."
1:44:31- And so for example, if you sit there and read a book
1:44:33in iBook for a long time,
1:44:35it makes sense that it's gonna use a lot of battery,
1:44:37even though that is obviously not a CPU intensive application
1:44:40because it's powering the screen.
1:44:42This guy sent me this screenshot,
1:44:44Facebook, two minutes on screen,
1:44:4615.9 hours in the background.
1:44:49It used up 75% of his iPad's battery
1:44:51And he has the Facebook consent not to be able
1:44:55to use background updates.
1:44:57- Which is insane.
1:44:58- That is insane.
1:45:00And it actually, to me, I honestly think it shows
1:45:05who holds the power in the Facebook Apple really.
1:45:11If you think of Apple as this mighty corporation
1:45:14and they think of the App Store as this powerful tool
1:45:17that they wield with their own utter discretion,
1:45:21I actually think that this makes Apple look bad and weak.
1:45:25It's almost like because Facebook is so essential
1:45:28to what people use their iPhones for.
1:45:30It's, you know, by almost every account,
1:45:32the single most used third party app on iPhone,
1:45:36that I almost wonder whether Apple knows
1:45:39that they're doing this and feels like they can't do it.
1:45:42What are they gonna do?
1:45:42Kick the Facebook app out of the app store?
1:45:45- Well, unfortunately it harms them.
1:45:47I'm looking at my battery for the last seven days on this.
1:45:49This is crazy.
1:45:50minutes on screen for Facebook 3.2 hours of background. There's no reason it's not as
1:45:55and do you have background updating turned off? I turned I have it turned off for Facebook.
1:45:59So it's you know, which this is mind boggling to me and it's I don't know I still don't
1:46:05have a Facebook account. So I have not encountered this first and it does not inspire me to change
1:46:11after all these years to change my mind and maybe sign up for Facebook. Yeah, and I that's
1:46:16the sad thing is like I was off Facebook around 2010. I was done with it and I only went back
1:46:22because the people that I play roller derby with that is the roller derby community is
1:46:26on Facebook. It's not a Twitter based place. So I only use Facebook for for derby and even
1:46:34so it ends up murdering my battery.
1:46:36And I totally understand that and I know how much of stuff like that I was just at I don't
1:46:41we can talk about in a bit but I was at a screening of the Steve Jobs movie last night
1:46:45over at University of Pennsylvania. And it was, I thought it was like a press screening,
1:46:48but it was really more for like, it was like students could get in, it was mostly just
1:46:51college kids. And they have like a, it was like put together by like their, their film
1:46:56club or something like that. And the pre-announcement like, "Hey, welcome, you know, glad everybody
1:47:01could be here." It was like, how do you get involved if you're a student and want to get
1:47:05involved with the club? It was Facebook. Yeah, Facebook group, you know, I'm sure that there
1:47:09are 10,000 other examples of groups where if you want to get involved and stay in touch,
1:47:14has to be Facebook, so I understand that.
1:47:16And not everybody can be an antisocial hermit like I am.
1:47:20But this is criminal.
1:47:21This is absolutely insane that they're working around.
1:47:27People who are specifically saying,
1:47:29I do not want you to update in the background,
1:47:32and they're doing it anyway by cheating.
1:47:34I mean, it doesn't matter whether the only way they're
1:47:38doing it is Federico's theory that they're
1:47:40playing silent audio, which lets them stay running
1:47:43in the background as a separate thing from the background updating option, which clearly
1:47:50is not in the user's interest. Nobody wants that. They've said, "We want you to shut up
1:47:55in the background. Just stop." And the other thing too that struck me about this is this
1:48:02because of the insane popularity of Facebook and how many people use it and clearly how
1:48:09detrimental it is to your battery. This has to be I don't even think it's a maybe this has to be a
1:48:14main reason for the the the stress about the iPhone's battery. No, the fourth the force
1:48:19quitting apps thing. Oh, that too. Yeah, I really surprised that this whole entrenched, what would
1:48:27you call it the way that so many people leave? It's a it's a tenant of like using a smartphone
1:48:31where Oh, I have to force quit my apps because it'll make the thing run faster and the battery
1:48:35last longer. Right. On ATP the other week, Casey Liss was saying he was at a
1:48:41football game and the guy in front of him, every time he would take his phone
1:48:44out, he'd unlock it, do whatever he was gonna do, and then double-click the home
1:48:48button and force quit whatever app he just used, and then turn the phone off
1:48:51and put it back in his pocket. Every single time he said, and it was like
1:48:54driving him nuts. But can you, so, and my thought was this is voodoo and Apple
1:48:59needs to stop this because it's not helping anybody. Whereas it must be
1:49:02helping people because it that way you can actually nuke the Facebook app and
1:49:07it wouldn't be playing the silent audio anymore and you actually would see
1:49:10better battery life. Yeah I mean I used to use the force quit apps
1:49:15technique way back when when I would go over the border between US and Canada so
1:49:20that I wouldn't accidentally use data usage because that you know that like
1:49:23that is the way to ensure that someone's not leeching in the background so you'd
1:49:28cut everything on that but yeah I mean that it seems like that's the only
1:49:32way to ensure that Facebook's not leeching leeching data and looks at not even battery life data. Like
1:49:39you think about how much how much data I don't care if the audio is silent, you're still streaming
1:49:43something, you are still requiring a call. And it'd be really interesting to compare this with
1:49:48also the numbers of the the cellular data. But I but I do think you're absolutely right. And that
1:49:53the it it emphasizes and it it validates the force quit theory, where Oh, well, of course,
1:50:01this is how I have to use my iPhone. And I also I think that it might actively be skewing iPhone
1:50:08battery numbers enough people use Facebook. Yeah, that I wouldn't be surprised if that's cutting
1:50:12half an hour an hour off of your battery every day. And if you're going from you know, you think
1:50:17you're getting a phone with a 14 hour battery and you end up getting, you know, closer to 11 or 12.
1:50:21That's I mean that that it's a bigger problem than I think. Yeah, we've made it out to be before
1:50:29this. Yeah, I really was not aware of it. But it's it really
1:50:32seems like I don't use the word lightly, but it seems
1:50:35scandalous. It really does. And I think it's clearly dark matter
1:50:40to most people like they're not going to figure this out. Like
1:50:42just going to settings general.
1:50:46Yeah, setting settings battery to find the usage now. Right.
1:50:51Oh, right, right, right settings battery. But people, you know,
1:50:54how many people go there? I don't think it's a lot.
1:50:57You stumble across it occasionally. You're like, Oh,
1:50:59that's fun. Yeah. The only the only app that has more I'm looking at cellular
1:51:03data right now the only app that has more than Facebook right now and
1:51:06Facebook has 420 something megabytes. I've got I've got the music at 430 and
1:51:13tweetbot at 551 megabytes but I use those apps probably 15 times as much as
1:51:20Facebook on my phone. That's crazy.
1:51:25Yeah, I'm looking at it. Yeah, it's crazy. Anyway, I think that
1:51:33this is not the last we've heard of this. I think that this story has legs,
1:51:37as they say in politics. But it's just crazy. Like this guy with the two minutes on
1:51:42screen and 15 hours in the background is crazy. Yeah, and the usage. The
1:51:47fact that, you know, it's not just 75% but he's only used it
1:51:51two hours. Like he has the time since last full charge there and that's the
1:51:55really like, uh,
1:51:57yeah. And if you it's, you have to tap it if you're just looking
1:52:01at it. If you'd look at the iOS nine, if you tap it, and you get
1:52:05this little there's a little blue clock thing that shows you
1:52:07the the how long on screen and how long in the background
1:52:12breakdown. Yeah, doesn't show that by default. Yeah, for me,
1:52:16it's tweet bot and and Safari.
1:52:18Yeah, tweet tweet bot the last 24 hours have been maps because
1:52:22I've been using my phone a lot. But tweet bot Safari maps music
1:52:25Facebook. Right. And then mail is the only one to me that has the big difference between on screen
1:52:31and background because I don't Yeah, you know, but that makes sense. Because I have mail set to to
1:52:35download my mail in the background. Exactly. Like mail has a good reason to download stuff in the
1:52:40background. Right. And I know how to shut it off. And if I told it not to, if I said, you know,
1:52:44which I do it again, which I do when I go to a foreign country, and I'm on like 100 megabytes
1:52:49SIM card, and I'll just have my email set. Don't don't load email until I, you know,
1:52:54- Until I ask for it, yeah, fetching.
1:52:57- And then it does that.
1:52:59Again, it's so easy for someone like me
1:53:03who's never used Facebook
1:53:05and has always been sort of skeptical of the company
1:53:07to sit here and complain about it.
1:53:10- This proves my point, yeah.
1:53:11- But this really does seem scandalous.
1:53:13I mean, this seems, it's almost outrageous.
1:53:16- Well, yeah, I mean, I look at the battery
1:53:18and I'm like, "Maps, you can have background activity.
1:53:20That makes sense.
1:53:21Mail, you can have background activity.
1:53:23music, you can have background activity podcasts. Yes, all of
1:53:26these make sense. Facebook having background. I don't know
1:53:29what Facebook would do with background activity, like
1:53:31actively be useful for me, maybe load more of my timeline so I
1:53:35can read it when I don't have a data connection, but I don't
1:53:38care.
1:53:38It would be curious to see what they are doing and why they're
1:53:41doing it. But yes, you know, I don't know. It's really, really
1:53:46interesting. Yeah. I agree. I don't think we've heard the last
1:53:49of it. But you know, get get get get get your pitchforks out.
1:53:54Seriously, let's say yeah, let's enact change on this. Let's
1:53:57let's cut this.
1:53:58Steve Jobs movie do you want to talk?
1:54:02Yeah, let me just do one I have one last sponsor to thank and
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1:54:07Please do.
1:54:08Oh, we just we should also talk about Elon Musk, which is a good
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1:56:53track of your time than what you're doing now. So before I talk about the
1:56:58movie, let's talk about Elon Musk. There was a thing last week where he was...
1:57:05who was he interviewed with? It was a German newspaper. And they asked him
1:57:10about Apple hiring the rumors and reports that Apple is hiring Tesla
1:57:15engineers. And here's what he said. Elon Musk said, "They have hired people we've
1:57:20fired. We always jokingly call Apple the Tesla graveyard. If you don't make it at
1:57:26Tesla, you go work at Apple. I'm not kidding.
1:57:29Oh,
1:57:31Elon Musk is he speaks his mind. That is what I will say. I mean,
1:57:37he's very, very jobsian and very much like plenty of other folks
1:57:41we know in this in this area. I don't think he necessarily meant
1:57:45it the way that it came out. I think that he was probably
1:57:48making a comment about Apple's car efforts and not about Apple's
1:57:51engineering talent. But it's still pretty, pretty bad.
1:57:55It is. It is. And you know, it's jobs in, in my opinion, it is a jobs in thing to say, which is
1:58:04whether it's true or not that and that to me is interesting. That's the interesting thing.
1:58:09Because it could be that they've done internally, they've looked at this and and they've decided
1:58:15that a lot of the people that, you know, engineering talent that Apple's hired away from
1:58:19Tesla, we're not the A players that Apple is getting the B players in the A players are
1:58:24sticking at Tesla. That could be true. Yeah. And he's willing to
1:58:28just come out and say it. Or it could not be true. It could have
1:58:32no relative, you know, it could be that Apple's hired great
1:58:34people from Tesla, but he's just saying it anyway, because he's
1:58:37Elon Musk. Yeah, because it's Elon Musk. Right. And it either
1:58:40way, it works. I like it. I think that it's funny. And I
1:58:46think that it's very confident. And the thing that people have
1:58:50compared it to and I jumped in my mind immediately right away
1:58:53too. Well, the next thing he said was that it was the building a car is the next logical thing for
1:59:01them to do. But then he said, "Did you ever take a look at the Apple Watch? No, seriously, it's good
1:59:07that Apple is moving and investing in this direction, but cars are very complex compared to
1:59:12phones or smartphones." And I think he said, "I don't have it here in this article." See, the
1:59:18weird thing is that the German original one is like behind a paywall. And then he said something
1:59:22to the effect of that you can't just go, you can just go to China and tell Foxconn to build
1:59:27you a watch, but you can't just go to Foxconn and say, "Build me a car."
1:59:33And the comparison that that brings to mind is then Palm CEO Ed Colligan back in December
1:59:39of 2006, which was like a month before Apple unveiled the iPhone.
1:59:43And nobody knew what it was going to look like, but rumors were rampant that Apple was
1:59:46going to do a phone.
1:59:47And he said something to the effect of, "We've been working on this for a long
1:59:52time PC guys aren't going to just jump in and figure it out yeah and the PC
1:59:58guys at Apple just jumped did just jump in and figure it out the difference that
2:00:05I see between Ed Colligan then and Elon Musk now is that palm in 2006 was
2:00:13totally stagnant they were not making things that were amazing you were not
2:00:18future focused at all.
2:00:19Right. They were, you know, they seemed like they were behind.
2:00:24Here's the quote from him in 2006. I've looked it up. "We've
2:00:28learned and struggled for a few years here figuring out how to
2:00:31make a decent phone. PC guys are not going to just figure this
2:00:34out. They're not going to just walk in." So the Elon Musk quote
2:00:38does seem to, has echoes of that. But the Palm products of
2:00:422006 sucked. They were terrible. They were behind the times. They
2:00:45It just were not exciting.
2:00:46Whereas Tesla is doing great work.
2:00:49They literally made the Motor Trend Car of the Year.
2:00:52- Phenomenal work.
2:00:53And the Model X is not for me,
2:00:56but even just listening to the stuff
2:00:57that they were talking about in the Model X,
2:00:58like that is a phenomenal car.
2:01:01Like that is a really cool car.
2:01:03- Right, so I actually, I love it.
2:01:05I love that he's embracing this flat out,
2:01:07his brash, and I think it is great for both companies.
2:01:12Like I wrote years ago, I had a piece
2:01:14that Apple needs a Nikon, that Canon makes better cameras
2:01:19because they have an arch rival for decades in Nikon
2:01:23who makes cameras that are as good or better,
2:01:25glass that's as good or better in some ways,
2:01:29that the competition keeps both companies better.
2:01:32That comparison is maybe not that good anymore
2:01:36because both Canon and Nikon are sort of getting disrupted
2:01:41by these mirrorless cameras like the ones from Sony,
2:01:43But don't take the analogy too far.
2:01:47But anyway, I just think it would be great.
2:01:49It would be so great if Tesla keeps kicking--
2:01:52Have a rival, yeah.
2:01:53Right, if Tesla keeps kicking ass in between now
2:01:56and even the optimistic--
2:01:592020, 2019.
2:02:00Yeah, 2019 is supposedly the goal.
2:02:03So if the watch shipped a year late,
2:02:06let's guess that the car will ship at least a year or two
2:02:08late.
2:02:09We're probably looking at 2020 or 2021.
2:02:12Yeah.
2:02:13nothing could be better for Apple
2:02:16than for Tesla to keep kicking ass
2:02:18and have a great five-year run from now until then,
2:02:23just to keep the state of the art going forward.
2:02:26- Yeah, I honestly hope they do.
2:02:28I feel like Elon Musk, again,
2:02:30is one of these people that doesn't come around
2:02:33every spring, right?
2:02:36He is a unique snowflake in a number of ways.
2:02:39And to have him basically breathing down Apple's neck,
2:02:42Not even in a mean way, just kind of, even if he just continues to make jabs and jokes,
2:02:48and his engineers continue to make fantastic stuff, that, I mean, that's going to spur
2:02:52Apple to work that much harder, you know, innovation my ass is a great like, grumpy
2:02:56grumpy this, you know, we hate the fact that everybody's been complaining about us not
2:03:03innovating when clearly we're innovating.
2:03:05But that kind of stuff, I really think that does drive them in a little bit.
2:03:09Apple is very proud of the work that they do and the products that they make
2:03:13and to have somebody even even in jest saying yeah Apple's not gonna figure out
2:03:19a you you bet the project Titan team is like oh yeah Elon Musk okay we'll show
2:03:24you you know it's good a competition is good and especially intelligent
2:03:29competition not like we're gonna copy your features and then you're gonna copy
2:03:32ours and then vice versa vice that's boring right it's so different coming
2:03:37coming from the founder of--
2:03:40How many different companies now?
2:03:42Well, but the most--
2:03:43let's just talk cars.
2:03:45Let's not even talk rocket ships.
2:03:48But just talking cars, it's awesome
2:03:50that to hear sort of straight up competitive talk
2:03:56from the leader of the most innovative--
2:03:58I don't see how anybody could deny.
2:04:00I don't know that they're the best cars in the world.
2:04:02that they're still very expensive.
2:04:06But in terms of how innovative the cars are,
2:04:10I don't see how anybody could deny
2:04:11that Tesla is the most innovative company,
2:04:13even just the way that they sell the cars
2:04:15without having dealers and selling direct, innovative.
2:04:19To have him take Apple on is just great.
2:04:22The only thing I didn't like is that the next day
2:04:24he kind of walked it back a little bit.
2:04:26- Yeah. - And he did this by Twitter.
2:04:27So his comments were instantly, they're all over the place.
2:04:32probably everybody listening to this show
2:04:33saw something about him.
2:04:34But then the next day he tweeted,
2:04:36well, I'll just go back.
2:04:38Here's the other quote he told this German newspaper was,
2:04:41"No, seriously, it's good that Apple is moving
2:04:43"and investing in this direction,
2:04:44"but cars are very complex
2:04:46"compared to phones or smartwatches."
2:04:49And again, that's so Steve Jobsian in my opinion,
2:04:53because he's not gonna make phones or smartwatches.
2:04:55And so it's such a neat rhetorical trick
2:04:58to just sort of say, to pin Apple as a company that makes these things that are easy. Which
2:05:05is not easy. There's nothing easy about phones or smartwatches at all. It's not true. I'm
2:05:10not saying that cars aren't complex. They're just complex in different ways.
2:05:16It's a different industry. It's a completely different industry.
2:05:20We've got multi-gigahertz Unix machines with touch screens with 60 frames per second animation.
2:05:27that are all fit into--
2:05:28- That we carry in our pockets all day, right?
2:05:31I mean, they are amazing devices.
2:05:33So don't tell me that cars are another order of magnitude
2:05:37or something like that.
2:05:38But it's funny.
2:05:39Anyway, on Twitter, he tweeted,
2:05:41"Yo, I don't hate Apple.
2:05:43"It's a great company with a lot of talented people.
2:05:45"I love their products,
2:05:46"and I'm glad they're doing an EV, electronic vehicle.
2:05:50"Regarding the watch, Johnny and his team
2:05:53"created a beautiful design,
2:05:54"but the functionality isn't compelling yet.
2:05:56By version three, it will be.
2:05:58- See, so as somebody who started following Elon Musk,
2:06:02I think I started following him
2:06:03during the initial Dragon tests
2:06:06where they're trying to land a rocket upright.
2:06:09- Yeah.
2:06:09- And just because some people were retweeting stuff
2:06:12he had tweeted and I'm like, huh,
2:06:14a CEO that speaks frankly on Twitter
2:06:16and that's not John Lugare,
2:06:17this would be interesting to watch.
2:06:20He tends to do this pretty,
2:06:21like do the day after responsive tweets
2:06:23pretty much every interview he's done.
2:06:26He did it after the, "Yeah, let's drop nukes on the poles"
2:06:29comment too that happened during the Stephen Colbert,
2:06:32where I think he just, he says things
2:06:34and then he watches the media be like,
2:06:36"Oh no, no, you're misinterpreting what I said completely.
2:06:40Okay, just for my own personal happiness meter,
2:06:46I'm gonna say this."
2:06:47And I don't necessarily think it's apologizing.
2:06:51I think it's, "Let me actually make sure you understand what I said, you peons."
2:06:57Right, like it's dialing it back a little, you know, like he's gonna make, he'll come out though,
2:07:03and it's why he's such an enjoyable personality. And I can't help but think that having a personality
2:07:09like that is, it really helps motivate teams, you know, and the companies that he works for,
2:07:15in the same way that it did with jobs.
2:07:17By erring on the side of having the dial turn too high,
2:07:22and then dialing it back as necessary,
2:07:25as opposed to being cautious
2:07:27and keeping the dial a little too low,
2:07:29and then maybe trying to tweak it up a little bit.
2:07:31You have to pick which side you're going to err on.
2:07:33- Oh yeah. - Too much or too little.
2:07:35By erring on the side of too much,
2:07:37I think it's how you do the impossible.
2:07:40- Yeah, absolutely.
2:07:42I mean, you can't win big
2:07:44unless you attempt to fail big and you can't. Yeah, I don't
2:07:49know. I'm I'm happy with him being boisterous and
2:07:51ridiculous.
2:07:52It did it. I thought it was fun. It did, though. It made me and
2:07:57again, just by coincidence, the timing is this, this part is
2:08:01truly coincidental. It's just that the fact that Steve, the
2:08:04anniversary of Steve Jobs's death was last week. Yeah, four
2:08:08years. You know, every October, it comes up and it hits a little
2:08:11bit. And it just made me think and in some ways, it's just
2:08:14sad. And it just, you know, nobody wanted a guy to die. So
2:08:16it's always sad to remember somebody, you know, beloved who
2:08:19died. But with the the Elon Musk comments, it really made me miss
2:08:24him because it's Apple doesn't need somebody who can play that
2:08:30role. But you know, I mean, it would have been Steve back and
2:08:35forth. Yeah, the back and forth between Steve Jobs and Elon Musk
2:08:38on a semi public forum would have been glorious and going
2:08:42forward making cars, right? Like as fun as it's going to be to
2:08:47have Apple and Tesla competing in the space, it would have been
2:08:50more fun if if it was Elon Musk and Steve Jobs. Yeah. So I may
2:08:56admit did make me miss him a little bit. Yeah. So anyway,
2:08:59last thing I did see the the Steve Jobs movie. Yeah,
2:09:04everybody's calling Aaron Sorkin. But it's Aaron Sorkin
2:09:07written and Danny Boyle directed. I can see why the Aaron Sorkin, you know, what
2:09:15all has Aaron Sorkin done? Yeah, he's done A Few Good Men, he's done the West Wing,
2:09:20Sports Night, which is still one of my all-time favorite TV shows, Studio 60,
2:09:25which was not one of my all-time favorite TV shows. I like that though. I like it, yeah,
2:09:29exactly. It was flawed but had some really great moments and same thing with
2:09:33newsroom. Very, very flawed, but occasional high points and then occasional hyper low points.
2:09:39Trenton Larkin So he has a style of dialogue and it is you either
2:09:45like it, hate it or or you're maybe sometimes you like it and sometimes you don't. But it's
2:09:50very distinctive. And this movie is very, very Aaron Sorkin. He also wrote the the social network
2:09:58movie. And the social network to me was a far more conventional
2:10:05movie. It was you could tell the Sorkin isms in the way that
2:10:10characters talked, but
2:10:12it was very neutered for for Sorkin like that was the first
2:10:15thing I ever noticed with with social network is it feels very
2:10:18again, there's little bits of Sorkin in it but doesn't feel
2:10:21like an Aaron Sorkin production.
2:10:23This the Steve Jobs is very it just screams Aaron Sorkin. And
2:10:28in ways that are good and bad.
2:10:30And the way that it's good,
2:10:31the best thing I can say about it
2:10:33is that there's only a handful of major characters
2:10:35and they are all interesting.
2:10:39And well, with the exception maybe of Chrisanne,
2:10:45whatever her last name was, the mother of Lisa,
2:10:49his first child, who was sort of weird in the movie.
2:10:55and just a little mousy.
2:10:58But she just didn't have as much dialogue,
2:11:03and it made her a little uncircan-ish.
2:11:06But the characters who were there were all vivid,
2:11:10very, very vivid.
2:11:11It was not just Steve Jobs and a bunch of others.
2:11:15It was a bunch of very interesting characters.
2:11:19And the dialogue is good,
2:11:21and the characters are coming from interesting perspectives,
2:11:24and there's a lot of really, really interesting conflict
2:11:27and it's entirely verbal.
2:11:29I enjoyed it.
2:11:33I thought the last third drug a little bit.
2:11:37I think most people know the basic gist of it.
2:11:39It's three acts.
2:11:40And they're all these scenes that centered around
2:11:45Apple or Steve Jobs' product and failings.
2:11:471984's original Macintosh, 1988's Next Box,
2:11:52and 1998's original iMac,
2:11:54which we just talked about an hour ago.
2:11:56And then there's just these scenes of personal conflict
2:12:01around these events, but it's not really about the events,
2:12:04and it's not about the products, for the most part.
2:12:08I thought the third one, the third act with the iMac,
2:12:12the scene drug a little bit.
2:12:14I liked the first two much better.
2:12:16This movie is really good. - I wonder.
2:12:19- Here's the other thing, I have to say this,
2:12:20'cause I know there's a lot of people out there
2:12:21listen to the talk show. This movie is really, really going to
2:12:24bother you if you're the sort of person who wants it to be
2:12:27factually accurate.
2:12:28I don't understand why you'd go see a fiction movie if you
2:12:33expect it to be fact I know why people expect it to, to hit all
2:12:38of the buttons. But it was already based on a book that
2:12:41wasn't intact, you know?
2:12:43Yeah, but this takes liberties, though. It doesn't just taking
2:12:46liberties. This is like, the best way I can say is it, it feels a lot more like a play
2:12:55than a movie. And in fact, I think it could be adapted to be a stage play really good.
2:13:01Yeah, really easily. I think the hardest part would be how to stage it because so much of
2:13:05it takes place on stages, like empty rooms. Like I almost feel like the I was thinking
2:13:10about it as I when I came home is like maybe the way to play it would be to have the actors
2:13:15pretend that the theater they're performing the play in is empty and that the audience
2:13:21isn't there. But that's the way it feels to me. It didn't really feel like a movie. And
2:13:27it's not certainly not a biography in any sense of the word. Like thinking about like,
2:13:35I saw somebody on Twitter who tweeted that he wished that Martin Scorsese would do a
2:13:40Steve Jobs biography sort of like The Aviator.
2:13:42Oh God, I would be so bored. I mean, Steve Jobs is a fascinating character, but I just I don't
2:13:48feel like we need it. I don't think we need a diabec. Nothing that he did was as cinematic,
2:13:53cinematically interesting as flying experimental airplanes.
2:13:57It's true. It's true. I really like Scorsese, but yeah.
2:14:01- Yeah.
2:14:01- Oh, it was Abdel Ibrahim, whose Twitter account is
2:14:09ABDO photo, who tweeted that,
2:14:15which I thought was a keen observation.
2:14:16If that's what you're hoping for,
2:14:17it is not like that at all.
2:14:19And it is not a story like the social network was.
2:14:24It's a melodrama about his personal life
2:14:30and with Lisa, his daughter.
2:14:34Overall, I don't know, I kinda, I enjoyed it,
2:14:40but I really had to let go of what I know
2:14:42to be factually true to enjoy it.
2:14:44And I can really see, I also can really see
2:14:46why his family is not happy about it at all.
2:14:49Because some of the liberties, they're not just liberties,
2:14:51they're just total inaccuracies.
2:14:53So just to name one, and it really,
2:14:56the movie really centers around his relationship
2:14:58with his first daughter, Lisa,
2:15:00and the way that when she was first born,
2:15:02he denied his paternity.
2:15:03That's all factually true, we know that.
2:15:05And complaining about this is,
2:15:08the knee-jerk response I get when I bring this stuff up
2:15:11is that people think that if you're a,
2:15:14people like me who is a fan of Steve Jobs
2:15:16want this stuff buried, and we don't wanna talk about it,
2:15:19we don't want it to be out there
2:15:20because it's uncomfortable and it's ugly, it's unfortunate.
2:15:24That's not the case at all.
2:15:25And nobody who I know who really cares about it
2:15:28is saying those things, and the way that he could be
2:15:31almost tyrannical to work for.
2:15:33Nobody is asking people not to remember that
2:15:36or to sweep it under the carpet.
2:15:37They're just asking for it to be put in a context.
2:15:41And the thing that to me I could see would be so painful,
2:15:44it's, in the movie, he, in 1998, when this IMAX thing,
2:15:49he still hasn't reconciled with his daughter, Lisa,
2:15:53and then he sort of does right before he goes on stage
2:15:56unveiled the iMac, which is ridiculous, if you think about
2:16:01it, why in the world would he be doing that? Like, as like, the
2:16:04PR people are saying, like, you know, you're 30 seconds late,
2:16:07you're a minute late, you know, you're, you know, did not
2:16:10happen.
2:16:10It doesn't seem like jobs at all. Besides, if you're if you're
2:16:13talking about, you know, someone who is obsessively focused over,
2:16:17right? rehearsing and all of that, you know, right? No one
2:16:21gets to come near me for 24 hours.
2:16:23Right, it actually, yeah, that's ways, and the character that Michael Fassbender plays is
2:16:29interesting and he's great. He is a great actor and it's a very interesting character,
2:16:32but the character he plays bears no resemblance to Steve Jobs.
2:16:36Yeah.
2:16:36So in short, what I almost wish is, I almost wish that they had done like something like
2:16:42Citizen Kane. This wouldn't have sold because it's the name Steve Jobs that is selling
2:16:47Tickets to the thing but like Citizen Kane was a thinly veiled biography of William Randolph Hearst
2:16:53Yeah, and instead of naming the guy William Randolph Hearst
2:16:59I mean they had enough legal problems dealing with Hearst as is like Hearst almost got the the negative burned. Yeah by naming the guy
2:17:05What's his name Charles Foster Charles Foster Kane
2:17:10So funny, I remembered the foster but I remember the Charles I was gonna say George Foster Kane Charles Foster Kane
2:17:16They had enough problems as is but it in addition to the fact that it helped them legally
2:17:21it just let them take liberties that they couldn't take otherwise, but
2:17:25In real life Steve Jobs was married to you know
2:17:32Laurene Powell Jobs by this time in the early 90s and they had kids of their own and that family
2:17:40reconciled with Lisa at some point in the 90s and brought her in and she was living with them for a time and and
2:17:46You know, whatever damage was done early in
2:17:49Lisa's life
2:17:51Had gotten a lot better and Steve Jobs had really turned around well before 1998
2:17:56uh-huh, whereas this movie paints a portrait of somebody who
2:18:00bears no resemblance to reality at all and I just
2:18:06Right, and then just the little factual things that are going to drive nerds crazy. Is that like in 1998 Steve was?
2:18:14Was was the act was was still bugging jobs to?
2:18:18Thank the Apple to engineering team at the app at the iMac introduction
2:18:23What and I swear to God and and jobs blames was for the Newton
2:18:34What I'm not making this up so if things like that would bother you like like you like
2:18:41would would there's no way that you can get around them and just pretend that this is a
2:18:46Totally fictional fable loosely based on somebody named Steve Jobs and Apple do not see this movie
2:18:52If you if you don't want to see Steve Jobs blame Wozniak for the new the Newton
2:18:58Then do not watch this
2:19:01You know, so, Sorka has written a couple of plays. And one one of them I saw pretty recently called the Farnsworth Invention, which is a story about the founding of television, essentially.
2:19:13Oh, right, right.
2:19:14It's it's a very, very good show. If you know nothing about the
2:19:19founding of television, which is to say it, it centers around a
2:19:23guy named Philo Farnsworth. And then RCA, who is basically
2:19:26Farnsworth and RCA were simultaneously developing
2:19:29television. And then it deals with basically their legal
2:19:32battles where Farnsworth alleges that RCA basically steals the
2:19:36founding of television. All of that is true. The height or like
2:19:40the pivotal point in the script, which is how the legal battle results, is wildly
2:19:47different from the actual results of the world, like what actually happened in
2:19:52real life. And a lot of people when they first saw the show were just kind of
2:19:56like, "Uh, what?" But Sorkin went that way because he wanted to make his point.
2:20:01Like he was telling a story, and whether or not the story actually lined up with
2:20:07real logistical history. It doesn't matter. It's theater. Which is very much what I kind
2:20:16of feel like, even from the earliest trailers of Steve Jobs. Again, I really I wish it hadn't
2:20:22been called that. I wish they had figured out a different title. I wish that they had
2:20:26taken more liberties with it. Because I think a Charles Foster Kane, like a Citizen Kane
2:20:31version of Steve Jobs's life would be fascinating. Just like a Steve like a
2:20:37Citizen Kane version of Elon Musk's life would be fascinating. Yeah and it's not
2:20:43it's again because it's just these three little scenes you know surrounding these
2:20:48product inventions it wouldn't have that this movie wouldn't even with with
2:20:52giving everybody fake names wouldn't have that the scope of a Citizen Kane.
2:20:56No. Like the epics go but that sort of I don't know or just wait a few decades
2:21:01You know literally decades so that it's not it's not so fresh, right? I mean I'm not you know
2:21:08I remember the iMac launch. I'm sure you do too. I
2:21:10It really wasn't that long ago. Not even 20 years back
2:21:15it's a
2:21:18I don't know if all the people are still like if two-thirds of the people in picture than this film are still living
2:21:24You have I mean money ball was the same was the same issue, right?
2:21:27I don't I actually don't know the logistic like I read the book
2:21:29All right, but the book and the film are a little bit different in my ways, but I don't even
2:21:34Yeah, I don't know. It feels it feels weird. I don't like watching biopics especially recent biopics for that very reason
2:21:41Yeah, I think money ball
2:21:43Again, it's weird and I do realize too that I'm intimately familiar with Apple and their products and you know
2:21:50At least Steve Jobs is public life
2:21:52And so all these inaccuracies jump out to me
2:21:56And in a way that I'm not quite with money ball because I'm a baseball fan
2:22:01But I can't say that I followed the Oakland Athletics to the degree that I follow Apple
2:22:06But I think that the money I don't think people associated with it the real people and it really had money much to complain about
2:22:13Yeah, I mean, I don't think Billy Bean really I mean, how can you complain if Brad Pitt is playing you know exactly
2:22:21Like that's that's an upgrade on every level of the words
2:22:23You know, I don't know it's it's I I have very mixed feelings about it. It's not it was an enjoyable movie, but it's
2:22:31absolutely positively
2:22:33Wasn't had it didn't have anything to do with the actual Steve Jobs. Yeah, or almost very little I
2:22:39Would have been surprised if it did honestly
2:22:42He wanted to tell a character study and he wanted to he wanted to shape the character and they he's been really obsessed
2:22:48the last couple I want to say the last couple projects he's done with father-daughter relationships to money had one, you know, yes
2:22:55Yeah, so I think that that was more of his like, oh, yeah, I can write the Steve Jobs movie
2:23:01But I'm not actually gonna write about Steve Jobs. I'm gonna write about what I want to write about. Yeah
2:23:04Fundamentally that is what this movie is about Aaron Sorkin. Steve Jobs is is a father-daughter relationship story
2:23:11Yeah, which could have been great. It could have been a great movie if it wasn't titled Steve Jobs
2:23:15Yeah, and even in my opinion even with that it wasn't great because I thought the third third act was really
2:23:23Not great
2:23:26Yeah, like the it just was it just didn't ring true not not true to like what I know to be factually true
2:23:32but like it just
2:23:34Contrived is maybe the word. Yeah, here's my notes. I wrote last night watching a melodramatic
2:23:40But contrived is probably a better word and I thought even even bordering a little bit it got a little boring in the last third
2:23:46It'll be interesting to see how it plays. I'm curious to see how big of a hit it is
2:23:50I will say this too and it really made me cringe as it was a theater full of college students
2:23:54Good crowd. I mean it was free
2:23:57I think free movies go over pretty well pretty well on colleges on college campuses when the when the credits came up and everybody stood up
2:24:04there was
2:24:08the young woman right behind me, she said
2:24:10to her friend, "Wow, if that was my dad, I'd be using an Android."
2:24:15I swear to God that was what she said.
2:24:19Because it's, you know, it does not paint a good picture of him.
2:24:24And I just thought, "Ooh."
2:24:27I was like, "That's rough."
2:24:30Well, the thing that I don't really understand is if you really wanted to tell a father-daughter piece,
2:24:34you could have done a really interesting thing.
2:24:36I mean, I think the iMac from a product release standpoint is a pretty pivotal moment in Apple's history.
2:24:42But I, you know, if you really wanted to compare Steve Jobs as a father, you should have done the iPhone release.
2:24:48Because that actually gives him a family that's not Lisa.
2:24:52Right.
2:24:53That gives that, you know, that that gives him a chance to basically press the redo button on being a father.
2:24:58And you want, I don't know.
2:25:00This is me rewriting. This is me rewriting Aaron Sorkin.
2:25:03Sorkin. So apparently I know better than an Emmy Award-winning screenwriter.
2:25:07But I, I, this is not a plot spoiler, you know, because that's the thing. There isn't really
2:25:12much of a plot to spoil. I mean, it's a biopic. Yeah. And they never even get, because it ends in
2:25:171998. There's absolutely no, no, nothing about his illness or anything like that. No. Um, it,
2:25:23but it's like they can't help themselves. And it's like, oh, come on. In 1998, his daughter was still
2:25:27walking around with a cassette playing Walkman. And he's like, I'm going to fix that. I'm going
2:25:32I'm gonna put 500 songs in your pocket.
2:25:34No, 5,000 songs.
2:25:36Well, something between 500 and 5,000.
2:25:38But I'm gonna do it.
2:25:38I'm gonna put it in your pocket
2:25:39'cause I'm so sick of seeing you with that stupid tape player.
2:25:43- Oh my God.
2:25:44- And it's like, oh, come on.
2:25:45- Wink, wink.
2:25:47- Right, exactly, exactly.
2:25:49Then he turns to the camera and gives a little--
2:25:53- You get a little musical sting.
2:25:55- Yeah.
2:25:56- That's a shame.
2:25:56I really like Sorkin.
2:26:00He's very flawed as a writer,
2:26:01but I love musical dialogue.
2:26:04And the idea of Sorkin writing Jobs,
2:26:09or at least a slim variation,
2:26:11I was just like, "Jobs has great musical dialogue.
2:26:13"Sorkin has great musical dialogue.
2:26:15"This could possibly be amazing."
2:26:17Or Sorkin could fall down one of his rabbit holes
2:26:19and it could be, eh.
2:26:20- There is good dialogue.
2:26:23I mean, again, you have to be able to let go.
2:26:25And I am enough of a cinema fan
2:26:28that I can sort of, at times,
2:26:31If the movie is made by talented people,
2:26:33I can disengage from whether or not the movie is drawing me in
2:26:36and just sort of watch it in a different way.
2:26:39And I could do that.
2:26:40And there are definitely good characters.
2:26:42What's her name who plays Joanna Hoffman?
2:26:45Oh, Kate Winslet?
2:26:46Kate Winslet.
2:26:47Really, really good.
2:26:48I think if anybody gets any kind of award nominations out of this,
2:26:51it's going to be her.
2:26:52I think she's remarkable.
2:26:54And it's a great character.
2:26:55And I don't know anything about the real Joanna Hoffman,
2:26:57so I can't compare it.
2:26:59I don't know.
2:27:00But she has a super great role in this movie.
2:27:04Really well written, really great dynamic
2:27:08over the 15 year stretch that it covers.
2:27:11And she just, she's the reason to see the movie I think.
2:27:16And it's a great performance
2:27:18and really, really well written character.
2:27:20- Well, that's actually really phenomenal to hear
2:27:24because I know Sorkin's had trouble writing women lately.
2:27:27- Oh, I think that she's the example,
2:27:29It's a great, great female character, in my opinion.
2:27:32Number one reason to watch the movie.
2:27:33And I can totally see why actors
2:27:35would want to play his characters,
2:27:37because I really feel like--
2:27:39- There's a lot of meat there.
2:27:40- Yeah, yeah.
2:27:41I feel like, and I feel like I said,
2:27:43all the main characters, Jobs and Joanna Hoffman
2:27:47and Andy Hertzfeld and Woz,
2:27:50and although the Woz that Seth Rogen plays,
2:27:53again, I would say he bears less resemblance
2:27:56to the real Woz than Fassbender's Jobs does
2:27:59to the real jobs. He doesn't bear any resemblance to the real was not even just physically just
2:28:03everything about him is very different. But it's an interesting character in a movie if
2:28:06you don't pretend that he's supposed to be was. And especially, John Scully played by
2:28:13Oh, gosh, why can't I remember his name? Jeff? Yeah, Jeff. Jeff Daniels, who I love. And
2:28:19he and he does so well with Sorkin's writing. I mean, he's a highlight of the newsroom for
2:28:23me. Yeah. And he really steals the show in this too. And he doesn't have a huge role. But he's one
2:28:30of the major, you know, major characters. And he's, he's really good. Really, really good.
2:28:34Yeah. So anyway, that's, that's my talk show review of Steve Jobs.
2:28:40It's good. You know, good, good overview. I think I will see it.
2:28:44I you should see I would recommend that you see it.
2:28:47Yeah, I mean, I'm yeah, I just I'm gonna go into it, as you said, with with film critic
2:28:53eyes on and not with not with tech writer job eyes on.
2:28:58Right. It's, it's, I'll bet you'll come out. And another way to put it is, it's exactly
2:29:02what you think it is. Yeah. And it's, you know, disappointing in some ways, but worth
2:29:09seeing in others, if you can put aside the factual stuff.
2:29:12If you can pretend if you can ignore the fact that most of the movie isn't actually true,
2:29:16great. But again, it's fiction. I I'm not I wasn't expecting
2:29:20Sorkin to do a note for note biopic when he was announced
2:29:25that he was writing it. I just wasn't gonna wasn't gonna fly.
2:29:28I think that about wraps it up. Let me thank our sponsors. This
2:29:34week we have harvest time tracker, mail route, great
2:29:39service for filtering all the spam out of your email
2:29:41automatic the dingus you stick in your car and get all the
2:29:43information out of and last but not least Harry's. You can get the talk the
2:29:48URLs and the codes by going to the website and looking at it. So Renee
2:29:52Caldwell people can read your work at iMore.com and on Twitter you are what's
2:29:58your what's your Twitter name? Setern S-E-T-T-E-R-N. It's a good Twitter account
2:30:02and and I thank you for your time. Anything else you want to anything else
2:30:07you want to pimp? You got any books that came out? We did write a book on Apple
2:30:11music if you're if you're having trouble with that. The big thing is actually not tech related,
2:30:16or semi tech related and that Jason Snell of former Macworld and now Six Colors fame, and
2:30:21myself and David Lore, who is a playwright and also Twitter enthusiast, along with a whole host
2:30:26of other people have put together a old timey radio theater podcast called the Incomparable
2:30:32Radio Theater and we're doing season one right now and we're four or five, four episodes in I
2:30:37think of a 12 episode season. And it's been really fun. Lots of
2:30:41guest voices that you may recognize from the tech
2:30:44community. And also, you know, getting cameos just left and
2:30:48right. It's it's been a blast. It's such a fun like, late
2:30:52record late night put together. Jason does magic of editing
2:30:56wizardry. Chris Breen formerly of Macworld now of Apple does
2:31:00amazing music. It's just it's it's a fun little thing.
2:31:04Aren't we supposed to say he works for a fruit company?
2:31:06He does work for a food company.
2:31:07They may sell apples.
2:31:09It does sound like fun.
2:31:10I will put a link to that in the show notes.
2:31:13And, uh, it seems as though everybody, it seems like everybody is desperate
2:31:16for podcasts to listen to because last week, uh, Marco and I were talking
2:31:20about hello internet and hello internet shot up from like number three on the
2:31:24overcast recommended list to number one, passing even Marco's own podcast.
2:31:29Um, I don't know if that was entirely me and Marco's doing, but, uh, anybody's
2:31:34looking for a good podcast that does sound like fun.
2:31:36And it also sounds like it's a lot different than the two people talking about this week's
2:31:43news tech show.
2:31:45So anyway, I will put a link into that.
2:31:47That sounds great.
2:31:48Thank you, Serenity.
2:31:49Thank you, John.
2:31:50Actually, before we go, I did want to mention, because it just happened today, Gary Allen,
2:31:54who ran IFO Apple Store.
2:31:56He just passed away from brain cancer, which is in part why he shut down IFO Apple Store.
2:32:03somebody as a former Apple retail employee and someone who religiously
2:32:06checked that site for many years it it feels like we lost a good one today yeah
2:32:11it really does and it makes me sad I never really I don't think I ever met
2:32:15him I've certainly linked to him a lot over the years because he was the
2:32:19definitive I mean what a weird beat to eke out but I remember when he first
2:32:24started doing I was like that's a crazy beat but then for years to come it was
2:32:27like you know he was the source yeah and if there was nothing to write he didn't
2:32:31and if there were new stories, he wrote about them.
2:32:34But when he stopped writing the site back in March,
2:32:36I was, I just thought, well, all right, he's done.
2:32:39But it turns out it was because he knew he had the diagnosis
2:32:42and he didn't want to go public with it
2:32:45and have people making a fuss over him.
2:32:48- Yeah, stress out, yeah.
2:32:49- So anyway, my best to anybody who knew him
2:32:51and any friends or family who knew him,
2:32:53it is a real shame, but we should call that out.
2:32:57He will be missed.
2:32:59- He will.
2:33:01All right, thank you Serenity.
2:33:02- Thank you John, this was a blast.